From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 1:17:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.networkiowa.com (ns1.networkiowa.com [209.234.64.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B2537B51A; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 01:17:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnl@raccoon.com) Received: from raccoon.com (dsl.72.145.networkiowa.com [209.234.72.145]) by ns1.networkiowa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA14991; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 04:20:21 -0500 Message-ID: <38E71022.1BC1943E@raccoon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 04:17:22 -0500 From: John Lengeling X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD questions Subject: Re: JetDirect 500X and FreeBSD References: <004a01bf9b35$0cc56be0$0100000a@vista1.sdca.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > Does anyone have any experiance or information about using HP JetDirect 500X > Printer Hubs with FreeBSD ? This is mission critical for my company, so any > information greatly appriciated. Ah...printers...my next to modems, my least favorite periphial to deal with. I have hooked up a lot of different printers to FreeBSD boxes and HP JetDirect cards don't work as well since they only allow 1-2 simultanious network conections to the printer. If you haven't purchased them yet get an Axis print server box instead. I highly recommend them. www.axis.com. JetDirect cards work, just not was well as Axis cards. It is also important that you upgrade your jetdirect firmware to the latest rev if this is an older card. There are some bugs specific to their LPD implimentation. You can also turn off banner pages on the later firmware code. johnl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 3:28: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5374137B5CC; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 03:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (pC19F5491.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [193.159.84.145]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA32152; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:27:18 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFA6AC2C; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:29:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03913; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:27:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:27:11 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Andrew MacIntyre Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD questions Subject: Re: JetDirect 500X and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000402122711.B2024@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Andrew MacIntyre , Jeremiah Gowdy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD questions References: <004a01bf9b35$0cc56be0$0100000a@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from andymac@bullseye.apana.org.au on Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 01:52:12PM +1000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Andrew MacIntyre (andymac@bullseye.apana.org.au): > they weren't particularly reliable, particularly when multiple jobs were > queued simultaneously. I hope their more recent stuff is better behaved. It is now. A further thing is: If your LaserJet doesn't understand PostScript, you have to use apsfilter. I do it this way here at home, the Windows-boxes use the JetDirect directly (the Windows software is REALLY nice!) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 10:32:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD8937B5F1 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:32:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id TAA04483 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:32:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA40249 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:33:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: 2 Apr 2000 18:33:21 +0200 Message-ID: <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000320194702.11223.qmail@web3101.mail.yahoo.com> <8bitar$2i4f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000329033908.A14122@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000402051559.A52041@happy.checkpoint.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > What do you think? For what it's worth (me not being a committer and generally not on the productive side of things), I morally support this idea. To push certain buttons: what you are suggesting is to bring syscons up to what the Linux console already supports in this respect. > - in raster modes (SC_PIXEL_MODE on, etc.) more than 256 characters can > now be trivially drawn. [...] I should point out that what you have outlined is very limited Unicode support. It's great for the primary European application of Unicode, i.e. having an extended character set that combines a character repertoire previously not available from 8-bit character sets, e.g. the ability to write both French and Russian in the same text. Without double-width and combining characters it won't be nearly as useful for Asian users, though, so don't expect rampant enthusiasm from that corner. Whether "full" Unicode support is desirable in a console driver is another question. > - the road is wide open for Unicode support in userland, through UTF-8. A UTF-8 capable xterm has been capable since, uh, last summer I think. It's in XFree86 4.0. The road is wide open already. It would be even more open, if the work done by the Linux people wasn't consistently GPLed and could be reused . > - The format of screen font files must be changed. Hardly an issue. You'll have an array of glyphs and an array which associates a Unicode code point with each glyph. In fact, you just might want to use the same format the latest Linux console tools have already pioneered for this purpose. > - some rendering routines are slowed down due to the fact that simple > 8-bit array lookups are no longer available for getting characters' > information. This may be circumvented somewhat by smart searches/hash > tables. Linux uses some kind of hash tables. I don't know the implementation details, but speedwise the overhead appears to be negligible. Hint: For anybody interested in unicodification, the linux-utf8 mailing list is a must-read. I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 13:30:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BE637B5DB for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:30:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA84347; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:30:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA54341; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:29:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> To: Nick Hibma Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Cc: Nikolai Saoukh , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:19:41 BST." References: Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:29:55 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Nick Hibma writes: : The issue is pretty hairy and for now I think the solution is to make : any stub use DEVICE_NOMATCH (see pci.c), which does not attach a driver : to a device, just mentions it during boot. And during every reprobe after that... :-(. I'm currently working on a pci card driver and the vga chipset gets reprinted every single time I load the driver... The whole purpose of unknown is to CONSUME the resources that others might try to use. This can't easily be done in the base bus w/o it actually consuming them. Maybe we need a flag that means "I'm a pseudo device that was created to consume these resources, please feel free to detach me when reprobing the bus for any reason." While the above would solve the problem being talked about, it would still suffer from the "all unknown children printing" problem, I think. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 14:30:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D2A37B549 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115202>; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:31:02 +1000 Content-return: prohibited From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Autogenerated sources To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:31:02 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I notice that there seem to be some autogenerated files related to USB and PCCARD in the repository. Shouldn't the repository just contain the master files, with the header files generated as required during the make process? How do these files differ from the device/bus files (/sys/kern/*.m), etc? I realise that /usr/ports/INDEX is also auto-generated, but that is a slightly different case: 1) It gives Asami-san a chance to demonstrate his expertise with factor(6) :-) 2) Generating INDEX takes a substantial amount of system resources. On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:26:35AM +1100, MAEKAWA Masahide wrote: > gehenna 2000/03/20 11:49:22 PST > > Modified files: > sys/dev/usb usbdevs > Log: > Add 22 vendor IDs. On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:31:58AM +1100, MAEKAWA Masahide wrote: > gehenna 2000/03/20 11:49:51 PST > > Modified files: > sys/dev/usb usbdevs.h usbdevs_data.h > Log: > Regen. On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 03:05:03PM +1100, Warner Losh wrote: > imp 2000/03/24 20:04:25 PST > > Modified files: > sys/dev/pccard pccarddevs > Log: > Merge 1.60 to 1.85 of NetBSD's pcmciadevs into our database. On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 03:05:49PM +1100, Warner Losh wrote: > imp 2000/03/24 20:05:18 PST > > Modified files: > sys/dev/pccard pccarddevs.h pccarddevs_data.h > Log: > Regen Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 14:33:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C397F37BB72; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115206>; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:32:56 +1000 Content-return: prohibited From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/skel dot.cshrc dot.login src/etc/rootdot.cshrc dot.login In-reply-to: <38DDD08C.32348FE1@gorean.org>; from Doug@gorean.org on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 06:56:36PM +1000 To: Doug Barton Cc: Robert Watson , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <00Apr3.073256est.115206@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <200003252023.MAA76070@freefall.freebsd.org> <38DDD08C.32348FE1@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:32:56 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Catching up on some old mail] On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 06:56:36PM +1000, Doug Barton wrote: > PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games:$HOME/bin Two comments: a) The sbin directories are for sysadmin functions and probably shouldn't be in users' $PATH. b) My preference is roughly the opposite order - along the lines of PATH=$HOME/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin My rationale (originating with commercial Unices) is that the /usr/local tree is a way for the sysadmin to replace standard commands with local variants. Likewise, one's personal bin directory is a way of overriding system-wide commands. > I added 'set -o emacs' to dot.shrc, it makes life much easier, I agree, but this would seem to be a religious issue: Equally good cases could presumably be made for 'set -o vi' - particularly since the default editor is set to vi. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 15:24:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DD737BBBE; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA98143; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:24:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004022224.SAA98143@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00Apr3.073256est.115206@border.alcanet.com.au> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:24:17 -0500 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/skel dot.cshrc dot.login src/etc/rootd Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , Doug Barton Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-Apr-00 Peter Jeremy wrote: > [Catching up on some old mail] > > On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 06:56:36PM +1000, Doug Barton wrote: >> PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games:$HOME/bin > > Two comments: > a) The sbin directories are for sysadmin functions and probably shouldn't > be in users' $PATH. I agree, but I lost my argument on that one. The counter argument are that users like to ping(8), etc. > b) My preference is roughly the opposite order - along the lines of > PATH=$HOME/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin > My rationale (originating with commercial Unices) is that the > /usr/local tree is a way for the sysadmin to replace standard > commands with local variants. Likewise, one's personal bin > directory is a way of overriding system-wide commands. The counter-argument is alias(1). >> I added 'set -o emacs' to dot.shrc, it makes life much easier, > > I agree, but this would seem to be a religious issue: Equally good > cases could presumably be made for 'set -o vi' - particularly since > the default editor is set to vi. This is for newbies. If you are clueful, then you can change your rc files. However, newbies like it when you can use the cursor keys to access the history, etc. This is noted by a comment in the diff that was applied, btw. FWIW, I think the default editor should still be ee, again for newbies, although some people think that people won't learn vi if you don't set their editor to it. As a counter argument to that, I am quite handy with both vi and emacs now, but when I first started out on BSD, ee saved my butt a couple of times. I like green bike sheds as well. > Peter -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 17:27:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A6C37B59F for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA85209; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:27:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA56008; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:26:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> To: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:31:02 +1000." <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> References: <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:26:48 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> Peter Jeremy writes: : I notice that there seem to be some autogenerated files related to USB : and PCCARD in the repository. Shouldn't the repository just contain : the master files, with the header files generated as required during : the make process? How do these files differ from the device/bus files : (/sys/kern/*.m), etc? The pccard and usb stuff are that way because they are that way in {Net,Open}BSD. The usb and new pccard stuff is ports from there. There has been some talk about "fixing" this, and I believe that all parties agree that it is desirable. However, until it is fixed, it remains the way that it is. There are also other generated files in the tree. syscalls.c is another example that is generated once, and then committed to the tree. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 17:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F1A37BC18 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA85225; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:29:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA56087; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:29:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004030029.SAA56087@harmony.village.org> To: Nick Hibma Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Cc: Nikolai Saoukh , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 01:23:02 BST." References: Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:29:19 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Nick Hibma writes: : Um, in that case you should update subr_bus.c. Change committed two : weeks ago. I got annoyed to by that too :-) Hmmmm. This work was on a 4.0-RELEASE system.... Makes sense. BTW, I have a hack to subr_bus that prints detach messages when a device is detached. This will hoist some code from the drivers that detach into the bus system. I think it would be useful to commit. Comments? Warner Index: subr_bus.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/imp/FreeBSD/CVS/src/sys/kern/subr_bus.c,v retrieving revision 1.56 diff -u -r1.56 subr_bus.c --- subr_bus.c 2000/04/01 06:06:37 1.56 +++ subr_bus.c 2000/04/03 00:28:59 @@ -1179,6 +1179,7 @@ if ((error = DEVICE_DETACH(dev)) != 0) return error; + device_printf(dev, "detached\n"); if (dev->parent) BUS_CHILD_DETACHED(dev->parent, dev); To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18: 4:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (dyna225-150.nada.kth.se [130.237.225.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3220737B914 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from assar@assaris.sics.se) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA98552; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:04:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from assar) To: Warner Losh Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources References: <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> From: Assar Westerlund Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:03:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:26:48 -0600" Message-ID: <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > There are also other generated files in the tree. syscalls.c is > another example that is generated once, and then committed to the > tree. Talking about this, was there any opinions on what to do with vnode_if.h? (See my PR kern/17613). I do think that it should also be checked in or at least installed in /usr/include/sys/ so that code can be built without having the kernel source installed. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18: 6:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D576037BC72 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA85386; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:06:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA56434; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:05:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> To: Assar Westerlund Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:03:59 +0200." <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> References: <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:05:37 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes: : Talking about this, was there any opinions on what to do with : vnode_if.h? (See my PR kern/17613). I do think that it should also : be checked in or at least installed in /usr/include/sys/ so that code : can be built without having the kernel source installed. Hmmm. I've always found that the kernel only files need to be compiled with a kernel installed. This included loadable modules. Bruce and I have been working out a patch to make it possible to compile loadable modules outside the tree. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:11:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (dyna225-150.nada.kth.se [130.237.225.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5844337B7DC for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:11:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from assar@assaris.sics.se) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA43051; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:11:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from assar) To: Warner Losh Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources References: <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> From: Assar Westerlund Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:11:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:05:37 -0600" Message-ID: <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > Hmmm. I've always found that the kernel only files need to be > compiled with a kernel installed. This included loadable modules. What about third-party loadable modules? > Bruce and I have been working out a patch to make it possible to > compile loadable modules outside the tree. To bsd.kmod.mk et al? That's most useful, IMHO. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:16:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F3037BC7B for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:16:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA85445; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:16:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA56539; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:15:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> To: Assar Westerlund Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:11:49 +0200." <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> References: <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:15:52 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes: : Warner Losh writes: : > Hmmm. I've always found that the kernel only files need to be : > compiled with a kernel installed. This included loadable modules. : : What about third-party loadable modules? Yes. They must be compiled against the kernel, just like modules provided by freebsd. : > Bruce and I have been working out a patch to make it possible to : > compile loadable modules outside the tree. : : To bsd.kmod.mk et al? That's most useful, IMHO. Yes. That's right. One of the things that drove me nuts when I started at my current job at Timing Solutions was the inability to build the modules outside of a freebsd tree w/o abadoning bsd.kmod.mk. I've fixed that, with Bruce's help, and I'll be committing the changes back to FreeBSD shortly. I like working for a Open Source friendly company. :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:21:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (dyna225-150.nada.kth.se [130.237.225.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA2237B62E for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from assar@assaris.sics.se) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA43117; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:22:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from assar) To: Warner Losh Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources References: <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> From: Assar Westerlund Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:22:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:15:52 -0600" Message-ID: <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > Yes. They must be compiled against the kernel, just like modules > provided by freebsd. Even if I knew that the files in /usr/include/sys/* correspond with the kernel? Anyways, (and it's really orthogonal) having a generated vnode_if.h (in /sys/kern or /usr/include/sys) makes it easier for the developer of third-party file systems (i.e. me :-), by not having to figure out how to generate vnode_if.h from vnode_if.src and vnode_if.sh^H^Hpl. In that case, including just works. Why not? :-) > I've fixed that, with Bruce's help, and I'll be committing the changes > back to FreeBSD shortly. Cool. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:37:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC9037BCC2 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA85542; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:37:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA56767; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:37:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004030137.TAA56767@harmony.village.org> To: Assar Westerlund Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:22:01 +0200." <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> References: <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:37:07 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes: : Warner Losh writes: : > Yes. They must be compiled against the kernel, just like modules : > provided by freebsd. : : Even if I knew that the files in /usr/include/sys/* correspond with : the kernel? Yes, because they often need files that aren't in /usr/include/sys... : Anyways, (and it's really orthogonal) having a generated vnode_if.h : (in /sys/kern or /usr/include/sys) makes it easier for the developer : of third-party file systems (i.e. me :-), by not having to figure out : how to generate vnode_if.h from vnode_if.src and vnode_if.sh^H^Hpl. : In that case, including just works. Why not? :-) That's just a small part of the problem... : > I've fixed that, with Bruce's help, and I'll be committing the changes : > back to FreeBSD shortly. : : Cool. Yup. It is third parties like you that I'm doing this. http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/bsdkmod-patches contains what I hope to commit if people want to comment on it before I do. You'll need sources in the standard place, or overide it with SYSDIR. I've been using them at Timing Solutions (my employer) for a couple of weeks now. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:53:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (dyna225-150.nada.kth.se [130.237.225.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EEA37BB7A for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from assar@assaris.sics.se) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA50477; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:53:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from assar) To: Warner Losh Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources References: <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> <200004030137.TAA56767@harmony.village.org> From: Assar Westerlund Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:53:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:37:07 -0600" Message-ID: <5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > : Anyways, (and it's really orthogonal) having a generated vnode_if.h > : (in /sys/kern or /usr/include/sys) makes it easier for the developer > : of third-party file systems (i.e. me :-), by not having to figure out > : how to generate vnode_if.h from vnode_if.src and vnode_if.sh^H^Hpl. > : In that case, including just works. Why not? :-) > > That's just a small part of the problem... Sure, but it's a part of the problem. And it's a part of the problem that I care about, as in it would make things simpler. > http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/bsdkmod-patches Looks fine to me. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 20:15: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E281237BA0B for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:14:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA85998; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:14:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA57574; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:14:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004030314.VAA57574@harmony.village.org> To: Assar Westerlund Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:53:52 +0200." <5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se> References: <5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> <200004030137.TAA56767@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:14:19 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes: : > That's just a small part of the problem... : : Sure, but it's a part of the problem. And it's a part of the problem : that I care about, as in it would make things simpler. I think it should be handled in a similar manner that the foo_if.{c,h} files are handled now. I don't think that it works right now. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 21:42:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8610E37BA0B for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from loughry@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 33791 invoked by alias); 3 Apr 2000 04:42:22 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 33761 invoked by uid 0); 3 Apr 2000 04:42:20 -0000 Received: from edialup145.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO miranda.dnvr.uswest.net) (207.225.103.145) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Apr 2000 04:42:20 -0000 Received: (from loughry@localhost) by miranda.dnvr.uswest.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00550 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:42:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from loughry) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:42:17 -0600 (MDT) From: Joe Loughry Message-Id: <200004030442.WAA00550@miranda.dnvr.uswest.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Warning: Object directory not changed from original Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am writing a new graphical screen saver, based on an existing one (rain_saver.c) in 3.4-STABLE. The system is freshly CVSupped to RELENG_3 using src-all. I found the list of modules in /usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/Makefile and updated that. But the new program won't compile cleanly. Even when the new program (test_saver.c) is simply a copy of rain_saver.c with "test" substituted for "rain" throughout, I still get the same warning, and it leaves a mess in the build directory. All of the other screen savers compile cleanly. What's wrong? (By the way, the resulting test_saver.ko installs and runs fine; it just won't build cleanly.) Script started on Tue Mar 28 22:59:01 2000 miranda# pwd /usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test miranda# make clean rm -f setdef0.c setdef1.c setdefs.h setdef0.o setdef1.o test_saver.ko test_saver.o @ machine lkm_verify_tmp symb.tmp tmp.o miranda# ls -al total 8 drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:59 . drwxr-xr-x 16 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:30 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 215 Mar 28 22:31 Makefile -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 3475 Mar 28 22:32 test_saver.c -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 43 Mar 28 22:59 typescript miranda# make Warning: Object directory not changed from original /usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test @ -> /usr/src/sys machine -> /usr/src/sys/i386/include cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -DKERNEL -Wall -pedantic -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/@ -c test_saver.c gensetdefs test_saver.o cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -DKERNEL -Wall -pedantic -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/@ -c setdef0.c cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -DKERNEL -Wall -pedantic -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/@ -c setdef1.c ld -Bshareable -o test_saver.ko setdef0.o test_saver.o setdef1.o miranda# pwd /usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test miranda# ls -al total 21 drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:59 . drwxr-xr-x 16 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:30 .. lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 12 Mar 28 22:59 @ -> /usr/src/sys -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 215 Mar 28 22:31 Makefile lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 25 Mar 28 22:59 machine -> /usr/src/sys/i386/include -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 360 Mar 28 22:59 setdef0.c -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 770 Mar 28 22:59 setdef0.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 235 Mar 28 22:59 setdef1.c -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 742 Mar 28 22:59 setdef1.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 28 Mar 28 22:59 setdefs.h -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 3475 Mar 28 22:32 test_saver.c -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4163 Mar 28 22:59 test_saver.ko -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 2608 Mar 28 22:59 test_saver.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 43 Mar 28 22:59 typescript miranda# make install install -c -o root -g wheel -m 555 test_saver.ko /modules miranda# ls -l /modules/test_saver.ko -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4163 Mar 28 22:59 /modules/test_saver.ko miranda# kldstat Id Refs Address Size Name 1 3 0xc0100000 1562d4 kernel 2 1 0xc078e000 6000 procfs.ko 7 1 0xc08ef000 2000 test_saver.ko miranda# exit Script done on Tue Mar 28 22:59:55 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 22:19:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from propylaea.anduin.com (propylaea.anduin.com [205.179.178.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45F737BD64; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@cgsoftware.com) Received: from localhost (dan@localhost) by propylaea.anduin.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26289; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:19:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:19:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Berlin X-Sender: dan@propylaea.anduin.com To: kris@freebsd.org Cc: mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: GDB 5 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (I'm not on freebsd-hackers, i read it every few days through the web interface. Too much mail already. So if you have a reply, be sure to cc me). Kris, you wrote " You're more likely to get an answer by asking the gdb developers on the gdb "mlist" :-) " when asked about why GDB 5 doesn't have support for freebsd-elf. Actually, he did, and we answered him, before he wrote here (IE a few days ago). The reason is that the patches against 4.18 you guys use were never assigned to the FSF. Or so, that's the reason i was given when i asked the head maintainer. I'm not here to get into any fights. I just maintain C++ support for GDB, and use FreeBSD as my secondary platform, and my main gdb testing platform (Since BeOS is my first platform). On the bright side, i rewrote the patches (mainly trivial fixes to make it work under 5.0), and save a few problems with shared lib support (it thinks it's broken but it's really not), they work fine. Hopefully, i'll get them into GDB 5.1. I'll happily put them under BSD license as well, and submit them, if you guys want them so you can have a working GDB 5.0 tree (I have the kernel debugging support in there as well), when it comes out. Since i use FreeBSD for almost all my gdb work, and i do quite a bit of GDB work (as you would imagine, C++ support in GDB isn't up to where it should be, i just took over a few weeks ago, and already made major improvements), i would be sad to see the FreeBSD folks continue to have to maintain their own set of patches to GDB for longer than necessary. Just one less thing for you guys to worry about. --Dan PS On a random note, i tried to email obrien@freebsd.org (since that was the address i see on checkins to gcc fixes) because DWARF2 debugging info is broken in gcc without a very small change to freebsd's gcc config file, but it bounced. Can someone forward this part to him? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 23:43:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Draculina.otdel-1.org (Draculina.Otdel-1.ORG [195.230.65.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D1937BD1B for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nms@otdel-1.org) Received: by Draculina.otdel-1.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 00F511D4; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:43:18 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:43:18 +0400 From: Nikolai Saoukh To: Warner Losh Cc: Nick Hibma , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Message-ID: <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 02:29:55PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 02:29:55PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > The whole purpose of unknown is to CONSUME the resources that others > might try to use. This can't easily be done in the base bus w/o it > actually consuming them. Maybe we need a flag that means "I'm a > pseudo device that was created to consume these resources, please feel > free to detach me when reprobing the bus for any reason." I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a description of the problems which might arose without it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 0: 3:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0414837B95B; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA76937; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:03:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Joe Loughry Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Warning: Object directory not changed from original In-Reply-To: <200004030442.WAA00550@miranda.dnvr.uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Joe Loughry wrote: > with "test" substituted for "rain" throughout, I still get the same > warning, and it leaves a mess in the build directory. All of the > other screen savers compile cleanly. What's wrong? (By the way, the make obj Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 2:27:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE7937BA82 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Received: from calcaphon.demon.co.uk ([193.237.19.5] helo=bluebottle.qubesoft.com) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12c398-00092N-0V for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:27:50 +0100 Received: from henny.qubesoft.com (henny.qubesoft.com [192.168.1.5]) by bluebottle.qubesoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA22521; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:27:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:23:02 +0100 (BST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@localhost Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Warner Losh Cc: Nikolai Saoukh , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reserving Resources In-Reply-To: <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : The issue is pretty hairy and for now I think the solution is to make > : any stub use DEVICE_NOMATCH (see pci.c), which does not attach a driver > : to a device, just mentions it during boot. > > And during every reprobe after that... :-(. > I'm currently working on a pci card driver and the vga chipset gets > reprinted every single time I load the driver... Um, in that case you should update subr_bus.c. Change committed two weeks ago. I got annoyed to by that too :-) -- n_hibma@webweaving.org n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 2:29:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2627A37B577 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Received: from calcaphon.demon.co.uk ([193.237.19.5] helo=bluebottle.qubesoft.com) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12c3AX-00092N-0V for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:29:14 +0100 Received: from henny.qubesoft.com (henny.qubesoft.com [192.168.1.5]) by bluebottle.qubesoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA21257; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:24:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:19:41 +0100 (BST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@localhost Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Warner Losh Cc: Nikolai Saoukh , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reserving Resources In-Reply-To: <200003270518.WAA89979@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In theory, if one matches with a -1 or smaller rather than 0, then it > will be detached on reprobe. Isn't that the case? On -newbus this issue has come up and the conclusion was that there is always some problem rearing its ugly head. On loading a new driver you would have to run a non-intrusive probe on the device (if at all possible, some USB devices won't let you do that), the driver needs to detach (if possible, what if they attached to a CAM SIM which you should not delete) and the new driver needs to attach and initialise the device (if possible, what about ISA cards that freeze if you treat them the wrong way?). The issue is pretty hairy and for now I think the solution is to make any stub use DEVICE_NOMATCH (see pci.c), which does not attach a driver to a device, just mentions it during boot. I have no idea however whether this can be done with the unknown driver Nick -- n_hibma@webweaving.org n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 4:53:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0189B37B665 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 04:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Received: from calcaphon.demon.co.uk ([193.237.19.5] helo=bluebottle.qubesoft.com) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12c5QI-000Pkk-0W; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:53:39 +0100 Received: from henny.qubesoft.com (henny.qubesoft.com [192.168.1.5]) by bluebottle.qubesoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA92133; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:55:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:50:50 +0100 (BST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@localhost Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Warner Losh Cc: Nikolai Saoukh , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reserving Resources In-Reply-To: <200004030029.SAA56087@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hmmmm. This work was on a 4.0-RELEASE system.... Makes sense. Right, that has not backported yet. I'll do that ASAP (this evening), including the patch where nextunit is no longer used. > BTW, I have a hack to subr_bus that prints detach messages when a > device is detached. This will hoist some code from the drivers that > detach into the bus system. I think it would be useful to commit. > Comments? Hm, maybe you should check device_quiet. Nick -- n_hibma@webweaving.org n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 6: 4:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (mailbox.reptiles.org [198.96.117.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853B437B9D7 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@reptiles.org) Received: from localhost (1262 bytes) by mailbox.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:03:59 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.108 1999-Sep-19 #3 built 1999-Oct-27) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:03:59 -0400 From: Jim Mercer To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS Message-ID: <20000403090358.K10147@reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i've got a server that has the sole purpose of routing packters between 4 100mbit interfaces. the server is running 3.4-stable. it has 128M RAM, and according to top, it isn't using much more than 80M. i'm using zebra to do full BGP routing with 2 peers. netstat -rn shows some 75,000 routes. i've got: maxusers 32 options NMBCLUSTERS=10000 vmstat -m shows: routetbl 154337 21118K 21118K 21118K 237725 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests 21842K 47K 249883 how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel? i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not. any recommendations? -- [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ] [ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ] [ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7: 6:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from internal.mail.demon.net (internal.mail.demon.net [193.195.224.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D74437B6DB for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fanf@demon.net) Received: from fanf.eng.demon.net (fanf.eng.demon.net [195.11.55.89]) by internal.mail.demon.net with ESMTP id PAA07146; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:06:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from fanf by fanf.eng.demon.net with local (Exim 3.12 #3) id 12c7Up-0005MG-00; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:06:27 +0100 To: jim@reptiles.org From: Tony Finch Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS In-Reply-To: <20000403090358.K10147@reptiles.org> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:06:27 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Mercer wrote: > >how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel? http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/hackers.html#AEN4204 >i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not. That's just for network buffers. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@demon.net dot@dotat.at 342 comedy as old and flaccid... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:11:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0161237BDA1 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:11:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from loughry@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 75210 invoked by alias); 3 Apr 2000 14:11:49 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org@fixme Received: (qmail 75155 invoked by uid 0); 3 Apr 2000 14:11:47 -0000 Received: from kkdialup162.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO miranda.dnvr.uswest.net) (63.225.120.162) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Apr 2000 14:11:47 -0000 Received: (from loughry@localhost) by miranda.dnvr.uswest.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01288; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:11:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from loughry) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:11:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Joe Loughry Message-Id: <200004031411.IAA01288@miranda.dnvr.uswest.net> To: kris@FreeBSD.org, loughry@uswest.net Subject: Re: Warning: Object directory not changed from original Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thank you! "make obj" solved the problem. I was pulling my hair out. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:13:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (mailbox.reptiles.org [198.96.117.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E45437BD3C for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@reptiles.org) Received: from localhost (1525 bytes) by mailbox.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:13:08 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.108 1999-Sep-19 #3 built 1999-Oct-27) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:13:08 -0400 From: Jim Mercer To: Tony Finch Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS Message-ID: <20000403101308.O10147@reptiles.org> References: <20000403090358.K10147@reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from dot@dotat.at on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:06:27PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:06:27PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: > Jim Mercer wrote: > > > >how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel? > > http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/hackers.html#AEN4204 geez, that one looks a bit scary. since 4.x has 1GB of address space, would moving from 3.4 to 4.0 resolve some of my problems? since i only have 128M in the machine, i guess i'll need to increase the amount of physical RAM as well? > >i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not. > > That's just for network buffers. ah. so, short of updating my system to allow for more than 256M kernel space, there is no way to allocate more buffers for the routing table? -- [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ] [ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ] [ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:18:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.research.kpn.com (hermes.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3418C37BE01 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from K.J.Koster@kpn.com) Received: from l04.research.kpn.com (l04.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.204]) by research.kpn.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #35196) with ESMTP id <01JNT06IHQ3W0013MS@research.kpn.com> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:18:39 +0200 Received: by l04.research.kpn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:18:38 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:18:37 +0100 From: "Koster, K.J." Subject: RE: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS To: 'Jim Mercer' , Tony Finch Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A32@l04.research.kpn.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear Hackers, From the original post I understood that the problem is that not all physical RAM is detected. Is FreeBSD seeing all oof the 128 MB's, or only 80 MB's? Kees Jan ============================================== You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:22:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (mailbox.reptiles.org [198.96.117.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1F037BEA1 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@reptiles.org) Received: from localhost (1351 bytes) by mailbox.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:20:58 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.108 1999-Sep-19 #3 built 1999-Oct-27) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:20:58 -0400 From: Jim Mercer To: "Koster, K.J." Cc: Tony Finch , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS Message-ID: <20000403102058.P10147@reptiles.org> References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A32@l04.research.kpn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A32@l04.research.kpn.com>; from K.J.Koster@kpn.com on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 04:18:37PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 04:18:37PM +0100, Koster, K.J. wrote: > From the original post I understood that the problem is that not all > physical RAM is detected. Is FreeBSD seeing all oof the 128 MB's, or only 80 > MB's? i think it is seeing all of it: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #4: Mon Apr 3 01:25:50 EDT 2000 toor@gw.151.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/GW151 real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) avail memory = 127451136 (124464K bytes) -- [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ] [ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ] [ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:31: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3943037B610 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA88012; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:30:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA60992; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:30:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org> To: Nikolai Saoukh Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Cc: Nick Hibma , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:43:18 +0400." <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:30:08 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Nikolai Saoukh writes: : I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a : description of the problems which might arose without it? Machine deadlock, undetected irq conflict causing misbehavior, probing hardware for device foo and locking the machine because device bar is really there. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:54:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tvol.com (mail.wgate.com [38.219.83.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F6437B6DB for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bbauman@wgate.com) Received: from hf.eng.tvol.net (hf.eng.tvol.net [10.32.1.12]) by mail.tvol.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA12035; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004031448.KAA12035@mail.tvol.com> X-Sender: bbauman@wgmail.tvol.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:53:48 -0400 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Bruce Bauman Subject: 82559ER and fxp driver Cc: bbauman@wgate.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone had success with FreeBSD 4.x and the fxp driver when used with an Intel 82559ER chip? I believe this chip is the same as a normal 82559 but with some of the management functions removed. The device ID is different so the current driver doesn't recognize it, but if I modify the code to recognize the device is it likely to work? Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8: 7:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Draculina.otdel-1.org (Draculina.Otdel-1.ORG [195.230.65.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C681C37BED0 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nms@otdel-1.org) Received: by Draculina.otdel-1.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 9C37B82; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:07:41 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:07:41 +0400 From: Nikolai Saoukh To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Message-ID: <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:30:08AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:30:08AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > : I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a > : description of the problems which might arose without it? > > Machine deadlock, undetected irq conflict causing misbehavior, probing > hardware for device foo and locking the machine because device bar is > really there. Disaster can happens with legacy hardware. ;-( What is wrong with PNP? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8:11:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373F237C26E for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA88209; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:11:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA61348; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:11:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004031511.JAA61348@harmony.village.org> To: Nikolai Saoukh Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:07:41 +0400." <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:11:10 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Nikolai Saoukh writes: : On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:30:08AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: : : > : I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a : > : description of the problems which might arose without it? : > : > Machine deadlock, undetected irq conflict causing misbehavior, probing : > hardware for device foo and locking the machine because device bar is : > really there. : : Disaster can happens with legacy hardware. ;-( : What is wrong with PNP? You can't always disable PNP devices. More accurately, the devices reported by PNPBIOS are defined to be hard wired and always active. You cannot turn them off or relocate their resources. They likely should be probed first rather than last like they are now, with changes made to those drivers taht don't yet support PNP. However, since the isa bus isn't guaranteed to exist until later in the boot process, this may have some problems. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8:23: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Draculina.otdel-1.org (Draculina.Otdel-1.ORG [195.230.65.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884EB37BECD for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nms@otdel-1.org) Received: by Draculina.otdel-1.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 8100B82; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:22:46 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:22:46 +0400 From: Nikolai Saoukh To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Message-ID: <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org> <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031511.JAA61348@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004031511.JAA61348@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 09:11:10AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 09:11:10AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > You can't always disable PNP devices. More accurately, the devices > reported by PNPBIOS are defined to be hard wired and always active. > You cannot turn them off or relocate their resources. They likely > should be probed first rather than last like they are now, with > changes made to those drivers taht don't yet support PNP. However, > since the isa bus isn't guaranteed to exist until later in the boot > process, this may have some problems. Well, create a automagic device 'known' and attach all known devices from PNPBIOS to it. Now _all_ pnp devices got their resources (even if there is no driver for it) and attached to 'unknown' driver. Any kldloaded driver later does not see the device. Simple remove of 'unknown' driver from src/sys/isa/isa_common.c makes device free and visible, but resources allocated to it at boot time lost forever. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8:30:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973B537B6DB for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA88296; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:30:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA61538; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:29:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004031529.JAA61538@harmony.village.org> To: Nikolai Saoukh Subject: Re: Reserving Resources Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:22:46 +0400." <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org> <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031511.JAA61348@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:29:45 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Nikolai Saoukh writes: : create a automagic device 'known' and attach all known devices from PNPBIOS : to it. Now _all_ pnp devices got their resources (even if there : is no driver for it) and attached to 'unknown' driver. Any kldloaded : driver later does not see the device. Simple remove of 'unknown' driver : from src/sys/isa/isa_common.c makes device free and visible, but : resources allocated to it at boot time lost forever. That's why the mechanism needs to be known to the bus, so that it can release the approrpiate resources. I think that others have commented that the BUS_PROBE_NOMATCH method for the bus might be the best one to deal with this sort of thing. If we can live with the reasonable (imhoo) restriction that the newly loaded device driver must support plug and play identifiers, then we can likely just reprobe the devices identifiers that weren't really attached at another point in the boot process. I think that Doug is working on something similar to this. The bottom line is that a loaded device must have a shot at those devices that were attached simply to reserve the resources. Your expectation that you should be able to get the resources is a reasonable one. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 11: 3:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8955137B850 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:03:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcov@toad.stack.nl) Received: from hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46] by kweetal.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA26893 (ESMTP); Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:03:11 +0200 (MDT) Received: from deathstar (n103.dial.tue.nl [131.155.209.102]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6692E802 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:03:09 +0200 (CEST) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:02:11 +0100 Subject: Re: GDB 5 In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Message-Id: <20000403180309.EB6692E802@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The reason is that the patches against 4.18 you guys use were never > assigned to the FSF. Or so, that's the reason i was given when i asked > the head maintainer. > I'm not here to get into any fights. I just maintain C++ support for GDB, > and use FreeBSD as my secondary platform, and my main gdb testing > platform (Since BeOS is my first platform). Not necesarily. The FPC team did send OBJPAS patches against 4.18 to the GDB team, and they just "forgot" them. When we resubmitted, the freeze was already a fact. Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 11:37:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from astralblue.com (adsl-209-76-108-39.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.76.108.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B718237B5BE for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Received: from localhost (ab@localhost) by astralblue.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00701; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and | -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since | most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions. I second this idea. Regards, Eugene -- Eugene M. Kim "Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music which people like, or make people who like your music." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 12: 4: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F0D37B5AE for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:03:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh26.bfm.org [216.127.220.219]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:04:49 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000403140229.00867870@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:02:29 -0500 To: "Eugene M. Kim" , Christian Weisgerber From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:37 03-04-2000 -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote: >On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > >| I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. >| I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and >| -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since >| most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions. > >I second this idea. I proposed that about a year ago, and it was seconded then. So, make this into four votes. I also proposed an i18n directory in the ports collection. Right now i18n software is scattered in different categories (well, last I checked it was - I cannot update my ports because within the last six months my FreeBSD ppp stopped working with my ISP and their techies still have not figured out what they changed - the problem is on their end, not mine). Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 14: 9:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from security.za.net (pix.security.za.net [209.212.100.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6B337B937 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@security.za.net) Received: from localhost (lists@localhost) by security.za.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA98154 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:16:33 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from lists@security.za.net) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:16:33 +0200 (SAST) From: To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: IPFW Tee Bug? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, got a bit of a strange situation here, hoping someone can help me out. I have the following setup... an internal network with an address range of 209.212.100.192/27 (real ips) a gatewaying freebsd box with an address of 209.212.100.193 internally external address of gateway freebsd box is 10.10.9.2 a pix firewall connected to the freebsd box with an internal address of 10.10.9.1 both the 10.10.9 addresses are in a .252 subnet (/30) the pix then has an external address of 10.10.80.2 connected to a router with an internal address of 10.10.80.1 the router than has real ips on its external interface Im also running nat on the gateway box translating everything to the 209.212.100.193 address. This all works fine, and traffic reaches the 209.212.100.192/27 subnet just fine in and out etc etc, and all seems perfect, providing I have an ipfw ruleset that looks something like this: 00001 divert 8668 ip from any to any via any 65535 allow ip from any to any The moment I do this however... 00001 divert 8668 ip from any to any via any 00002 tee 2010 tcp from any 80 to any via any 00003 tee 2010 tcp from any to any 80 via any 65535 allow ip from any to any Something breaks. When I do that, suddenly everything behind the gateway server sees the webserver on the gateway server as whatever its browsing, no matter what I browse when I have those ipfw tee commands in place it ALWAYS returns the data on the webserver on the gateway machine. Now to my knowledge ipfw tee just copied stuff to a raw socket, and didnt actually "divert" anything, so this makes no sense. Any help would be much appeciated Thanks Andrew Alston Citec Network Securities (Director) Phone: +27 (0)11 787 4241 Fax: +27 (0)11 787 4251 Email: andrew@cnsec.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 14:26:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spark.hack.com.br (spark.hack.com.br [200.210.225.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 07B1437B885 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from visi0n@aux-tech.org) Received: (qmail 95141 invoked by uid 0); 3 Apr 2000 21:28:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO luiz.bsb.tba) (200.202.58.21) by spark.hack.com.br with SMTP; 3 Apr 2000 21:28:07 -0000 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:24:45 -0300 (BRT) From: visi0n X-Sender: visi0n@ebola.chinatown.org To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ProcFS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was thinking how normal programs get info about cpu and memory utilization in bsd's systems, (maybe sysctl ?). =============================================================================== visi0n AUX Technologies [www.aux-tech.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 14:30:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD3637B559 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (mbac@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15173; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from localhost (mbac@localhost) by bsd1.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00463; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) X-Authentication-Warning: bsd1.nyct.net: mbac owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Bacarella To: visi0n Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ProcFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, visi0n wrote: > I was thinking how normal programs get info about cpu and memory > utilization in bsd's systems, (maybe sysctl ?). In the olden days, you used to have to read kernel data structures through /dev/mem (or friends(?)). This usually means that you have to be privileged or at least loved by a privileged person on the system. Lately, a lot (more) of this data is accessible through sysctl, although I don't know exactly what. Just more. Michael Bacarella New York Connect Net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 16: 5:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE7B37B628 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA23350; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:07:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:07:25 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Eugene M. Kim" Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000403230725.A22623@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Eugene M. Kim on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote: > On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. > | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and > | -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since > | most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions. > > I second this idea. I do, sort of. I think (BICBW) there's a big overlap between carrying out i18n work on the code and message catalogs, and carrying out i18n work on the documentation. There is already a freebsd-translators (@ngo.org.uk) mailing list with very little traffic that could be migrated to freebsd.org and used for both. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 16:12:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from astralblue.com (adsl-209-76-108-39.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.76.108.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E0D37B5E9; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Received: from localhost (ab@localhost) by astralblue.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01875; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:12:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Nik Clayton Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000403230725.A22623@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Nik Clayton wrote: | On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote: | > On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: | > | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. | > | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and | > | -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since | > | most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions. | > | > I second this idea. | | I do, sort of. I think (BICBW) there's a big overlap between carrying | out i18n work on the code and message catalogs, and carrying out i18n | work on the documentation. There is already a freebsd-translators | (@ngo.org.uk) mailing list with very little traffic that could be | migrated to freebsd.org and used for both. Yes. In fact I prudently predict that if we launched an i18n mailing list we would soon get into the same set of problems every i18n project has (e.g. unification vs. localization). For this purpose, having a group of people already involved in i18n (regardless they are programmers or doc writers) migrated into the new list would be a great idea. -- Eugene M. Kim "Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music which people like, or make people who like your music." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 16:25:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1870637B58E for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06442; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:23:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: MikeM Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000320194702.11223.qmail@web3101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure -- I am Russian. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 18:27:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lanturn.express.ru (lanturn.kmost.express.ru [212.24.37.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6A237B512 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vova@express.ru) Received: from vova (helo=localhost) by lanturn.express.ru with local-esmtp (Exim 3.11 #1) id 12cI7Y-0004ch-00; Tue, 04 Apr 2000 05:27:08 +0400 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 05:27:07 +0400 (MSD) From: vova@express.ru X-Sender: vova@lanturn.kmost.express.ru To: Jim Mercer Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS In-Reply-To: <20000403090358.K10147@reptiles.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Jim Mercer wrote: > i've got a server that has the sole purpose of routing packters between > 4 100mbit interfaces. > > the server is running 3.4-stable. > > it has 128M RAM, and according to top, it isn't using much more than 80M. > > i'm using zebra to do full BGP routing with 2 peers. > > netstat -rn shows some 75,000 routes. > > i've got: > maxusers 32 > options NMBCLUSTERS=10000 > > vmstat -m shows: > routetbl 154337 21118K 21118K 21118K 237725 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 > Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests > 21842K 47K 249883 > > how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel? > i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not. > > any recommendations? your in-kernel tables limited by 21118K each, you need increase this limit how ? I know two ways: first method - increase real memory of PC it will work with multiplier about 6 (with 192 real I have limit ~30M, with 64M real I have about 10M limit) second way: tune kernel paramets # cat /sys/i386/include/vmparam.h: ... /* virtual sizes (bytes) for various kernel submaps */ #ifndef VM_KMEM_SIZE #define VM_KMEM_SIZE (12 * 1024 * 1024) #endif /* * How many physical pages per KVA page allocated. * min(max(VM_KMEM_SIZE, Physical memory/VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE), VM_KMEM_SIZE_MAX) * is the total KVA space allocated for kmem_map. */ #ifndef VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE #define VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE (3) #endif ... so you can higher VM_KMEM_SIZE or lower VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE in your kernel config file I decrease VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE to (1) and have got ~ 96M kernel limits (about half of PC's RAM) # grep VM_ /sys/i386/conf/LANTURN options VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE="(1)" # vmstat -m | grep routetbl routetbl 212269 39797K 39797K 95256K 351036 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 and then I have installed about 100K routes with script (much more than in BGP full-view) for testing: # netstat -rn | wc -l 106111 # it takes 39797K > -- > [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ] > [ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ] > [ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ] -- TSB Russian Express, Moscow Vladimir B. Grebenschikov, vova@express.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 20:17:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241DC37B5E1 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh5.bfm.org [216.127.220.198]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:18:32 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:16:17 -0500 To: Alex Belits , MikeM From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000320194702.11223.qmail@web3101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 15:23 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: >On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > >> Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure Everyone who works with multilingual documents. Everyone who wants to follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally. Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all text." >-- I am Russian. So? Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 21: 4:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BA637B5B5 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07205; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:59:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:59:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: MikeM , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having > >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure > > Everyone who works with multilingual documents. I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English and Russian text without Unicode. > Everyone who wants to > follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually > exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally. "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from Unicode Consortium. > Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: > "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO > 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding > scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all > text." This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by dozens. > >-- I am Russian. > > So? So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Charset definitions in MIME headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence. One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same tools without any complex "this is text and this is not" application-specific procedures. UTF-8 turns "text" into something that gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and "non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. In Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's a violation of some very basic rules. -- Alex P.S. I expect that Martin Duerst, the source of 80% of Unicode propaganda on the software-oriented mailing lists will appear within 72 hours here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 21:38:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7123437B7AA for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r31.bfm.org [216.127.220.127]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:38:53 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000403233641.008e6590@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:36:41 -0500 To: Alex Belits From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: MikeM , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English >and Russian text without Unicode. Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There is only one standard that makes it possible: Unicode. Too bad UTF-8 did not exist at the time, and I had to use graphics. >> Everyone who wants to >> follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually >> exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally. > "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from >Unicode Consortium. I don't know what you mean by "unificators." Why self proclaimed? Those were people with a need for which they found a solution. Unicode Consortium has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely accepted. You're free to create your own system, or ignore it all together. But just because you see no need for Unicode does not mean you should be upset when people are willing to work on Unicode support in FreeBSD. >> Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: >> "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO >> 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding >> scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all >> text." > This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never >was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any >input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by >dozens. Affected in what way? Many ways of encoding Unicode were proposed, developed, and used. Most of them are history by now. UTF-8 is the best way to encode Unicode to this day. Don't like it? Design a better one. >> >-- I am Russian. >> >> So? > > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Who's forcing it on you? > Charset definitions in MIME >headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can >create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning >them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and >dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be >processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence. You are worried about nothing. No one in this discussion has said anything about making anything but Unicode and UTF-8 "illegal." Supporting Unicode does not mean stopping support for everything else. > One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can >be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same >tools without any complex "this is text and this is not" >application-specific procedures. Nothing complex about it. UTF-8 uses a very simple algorithm which makes it very simple to distinguish text from non-text. >UTF-8 turns "text" into something that >gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream >of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and >"non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal >with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. You don't have to treat everything as the stream of UTF-8 encoded Unicode. Again, supporting Unicode does not mean EVERYTHING must be Unicode. That would not make sense, at least not now. It may in the future. Unicode is here to stay. >In >Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats >this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as >text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable >outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even >encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's >a violation of some very basic rules. What does Windows have to do with Unicode? Windows support for Unicode sucks royally. Except for NT, Windows' Unicode support is virtually non-existent. When did it stop Unix programmers from doing something Microsoft cannot handle? Unix already handles Unicode better than anything under Windows. For example, Lynx handles Unicode quite well, and it does it on text-only displays that have no way of supporting a multitude of fonts. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 22:29:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBBD37B601 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1D91CDF; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:29:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Bruce Bauman Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 82559ER and fxp driver In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Bauman of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:53:48 EDT." <200004031448.KAA12035@mail.tvol.com> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:29:40 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000404052940.2B1D91CDF@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bruce Bauman wrote: > Has anyone had success with FreeBSD 4.x and the fxp driver when used with > an Intel 82559ER chip? I believe this chip is the same as a normal 82559 > but with some of the management functions removed. > > The device ID is different so the current driver doesn't recognize it, but > if I modify the code to recognize the device is it likely to work? > > Thanks. It is likely to work (try it!). The 82559 cards have a small serial eeprom that contains all sorts of configuration information, including the PCI vendor and device ID's - essentially they can be changed trivially. I think that it can also be used to control which features are active - but I don't think it can be reprogrammed on the card. Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 0:19: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peedub.muc.de (peedub.muc.de [193.149.49.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA8137B764 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 00:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA25918; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:12:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004040712.JAA25918@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.0 09/18/1999 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha & pc98 testers wanted Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:51:06 +0200." <698.954514266@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:12:19 +0200 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn writes: > >Hi folks, > >The following patch to the 5.0-CURRENT sources allows the installkernel >target to install multiple kernels. Given the following in >/etc/make.conf: > > KERNEL= AXL AXLOPT GENERIC > >the installkernel target would install: > > AXL -> /kernel > AXLOPT -> /kernel.AXLOPT > GENERIC -> /kernel.GENERIC > >I've tested this for the i386 and would prefer to have it tested on the >Alpha and pc98 before committing it, although I'm convinced that it >should work on both of those platforms. > [patch deleted] well, it doesn't work for me on the Alpha. It tries to install all the kernels named in KERNEL at once. Here's the output from make: >>> Installing kernel(s) -------------------------------------------------------------- ===> alpha as /kernel cd /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/alpha; MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/usr/obj COMPILER_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/libexec:/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/bin LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/lib:/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/lib OBJFORMAT_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/libexec PERL5LIB=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/libdata/perl/5.00503 MACHINE=alpha KERNEL=alpha DESTKERNEL=kernel make install [: GENERIC: unexpected operator chflags noschg /kernel mv -f /kernel /kernel.old install -c -m 555 -o root -g wheel -fschg alpha GENERIC /kernel ^^^^^^^^^^^^ usage: install [-CcDpsv] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 file2 install [-CcDpsv] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 ... fileN directory install -d [-v] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] directory ... *** Error code 64 Stop in /u1/obj/usr/src/sys/alpha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. I also noticed that there was a GENERIC and alpha in both the kernel compile directories. Somehow that doesn't seem right. Maybe my world is too old. I'm running a buildworld right now. --- Gary Jennejohn / garyj@muc.de gj@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 6: 9:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.de (mailout00.sul.t-online.de [194.25.134.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD0A37B61A for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 06:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tboxberg@schuett-elektronik.de) Received: from fmrl02.sul.t-online.de by mailout00.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 12cT4c-0001dc-00; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:08:50 +0200 Received: from mail.net (340061203289-0001@[193.159.16.153]) by fmrl02.sul.t-online.de with esmtp id 12cT4Z-1iDYHYC; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:08:47 +0200 Received: from gateway.schuett-inhouse.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA68115; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:11:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from titus@schuett-inhouse.de) Received: from schuett-inhouse.de (titus.schuett-inhouse.de [192.168.3.66]) by gateway.schuett-inhouse.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA68038; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:03:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from titus@schuett-inhouse.de) Message-ID: <38E9F670.136392D6@schuett-inhouse.de> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:04:32 +0100 From: Titus von Boxberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Belits Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , MikeM , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 340061203289-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Belits wrote: > > Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: > > "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO > > 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding > > scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all > > text." > > This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never > was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any > input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by > dozens. I don't guess what meaning could be transferred by the quotation marks around standard documents. As far as I know (especially the Q, X and I series), the ITU-T produces quite good standards that are widely, if not globally accepted (just think about V.34 or V.29, V.17, T.30 and so on). Check'em out and try to send a fax. It works globally. Quite astonishing, isn't it? Or, if that isn't sufficient, you may use the same software to connect to X.25 networks all around the world. You can establish modem connections around the world (after Bell labs standards ceased to exist). You can connect the same ISDN equipment virtually everywhere in Europe to the trunk line... If Unicode is equally well accepted, there should be no problem with it. Bye, Titus titus@pleach.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 7:22:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A913E37B61A for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 07:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA73654; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:22:08 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404102207.A73509@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20000320194702.11223.qmail@web3101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0700: > On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > > > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having > Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure > -- I am Russian. So am I, and guess what? I'd really love being able to handle French and Russian together smoothly and transparently. Not to mention Hebrew. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 7:41:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8F337B821 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 07:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA73847; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:41:15 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404104115.B73509@sasami.jurai.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700: > > >-- I am Russian. > > > > So? > > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Noone is trying to force UTF-8 on you. In fact, userland support of UTF-8 can (and should IMHO) be based around an environment variable a-la LANG which would tell programs whether they should expect pure 8-bit text or UTF-8 text. This will give you a pretty easy option to leave things as they are. > Charset definitions in MIME > headers exist for a reason. Yes, and the better mail clients (e.g. mutt) are already able to translate transparently between different equivalent charsets by using internally a common superset -- Unicode. Everyone should be able to use whatever charset they desire. > One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can > be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same > tools without any complex "this is text and this is not" > application-specific procedures. UTF-8 turns "text" into something that > gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream > of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and > "non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal > with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. This is not a dilemma. Just about the only really different aspect of handling UTF-8 text is the algorithm for calculating the number of characters. Most of the existing programs can easily be tailored to treat the byte stream as either pure 8-bit stream or UTF-8 stream based on YOUR preferences. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8: 7:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB53837B734 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r4.bfm.org [216.127.220.100]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:07:58 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:05:44 -0500 To: Alex Belits From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000403233641.008e6590@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 22:51 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be >useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate >as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and >communications. Oh, I think it's great for communications. I design web sites. It is good to have a single character representation supported by Internet standards. Saves a lot of work. Before UTF-8 became widely accepted, a typical Slovak web page started by a menu of choices of which encoding your browser supported. You had to have 3 - 4 versions of each page. A major pain! Now you only need one. Or even when designing English pages in a typographically correct way (opening and closing quotes, and things like that), it was a pain before UTF-8 because while ISO-8859-1 is the assumed default, Microsoft, in its infinite wisdom created a slight modification of ISO-8859-1 which they called ANSI, and which the uninitiated commonly believed to be the same as ISO-8859-1. As a result, there are a myriad of web pages out there that use the Microsoft encoding, and there are those that use true ISO-8859-1. So many browsers assume that you are using the MS "standard." It's a real mess. So, in all my recent pages I use UTF-8, and the problem is solved. >> Unicode Consortium >> has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely >> accepted. > > So far only by one company actually "accepted" it -- Microsoft. Everyone >else (except Java/Sun) just happened to be depended on them. Java and >Plan9 are special cases because both are essentially endless storages of >ivory-tower design idiosyncrasy and arbitrary decisions made by handful of >people. I was not talking about companies. I was talking about people with genuine i18n needs. When I started working on Unicode support for FreeBSD (a work, I unfortunately had to interrupt due to serious health problems), I subscribed to the Unicode mailing list. People on the list come from different backgrounds, mostly Unix actually. The most active ones who make serious proposals to additions to Unicode are Unix people. > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- >everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone >else. I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already because I did some work and it is in the ports. > I am not talking about Unicode representations and encodings but about >Unicode itself. I agree that UTF-8 is the only way to marry Unicode with >text and Unix, however I don't see much point in doing that. Well, that's fine. You don't need it. I do. UTF-8 has many nice advantages for a Unix programmer, which is probably why it became so widely accepted. For example, standard C string functions work with UTF-8: strcmp, strcpy, and other str* functions work without modification. The only possible limitation is that strlen will give you the number of bytes rather than the number of characters, but that is probably the intended meaning anyway (e.g., if you need to see how much memory you need to store a UTF-8 string, its strlen + 1 will still work as intended). UTF-8 also transparently supports both the original Unicode which is 16 bits wide and the new ISO 10646 which is 31 bits wide. >> > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. >> >> Who's forcing it on you? > > IETF. All recent RFCs are littered with referenced to UTF-8 in all >places where reasonable standards would have "8-bit clean" with no >explicit low-level semantics attached. All they say is that UTF-8 must be supported by all protocols. They don't say other encodings must not or should not. If you need the clean bit, use UTF-7. You can still use MIME. Personally, I see no problem designing a file that can mix text data with other data. The "control" characters still exist in Unicode, so it is easy to a control character followed by the size of data to delimit the start of binary data. > I have spent enough time with "unicoders" to become convinced that the >depth of changes they demand in protocols and libraries is enough to make >it a game of "everything or nothing" -- partial implementations become >unsafe because the design of libraries and prococols hinges on the idea >that only one charset/encoding may exist, so no ways to provide charset >and encoding are left. I have not encountered that attitude. I have seen people who see the advantages of Unicode to the point they do not use anything else in their work, but I do not see them trying to force everyone else to go Unicode only. > This is the problem. There is no "text" and "non-text" -- there is >"valid UTF-8" and everything else. Software designed in "unix style" >can't do heuristics and guess that if the data has some properties (such >as passing UTF-8 validity test) it is really some particular kind of data >and should be treated in some different manner. It does not need to. >> Again, supporting Unicode does not mean EVERYTHING must be Unicode. That >> would not make sense, at least not now. It may in the future. Unicode is >> here to stay. > > So was Microsoft. Almost all mentionings of "is here to stay" that I >have heard in last seven years were about Microsoft and its standards. I never said MS was here to stay. I personally do believe Unicode is. Not because it is perfect, mind you. There are many design flaws in Unicode. In a way, Unicode was a quick hack. For example, in the old ASCII you could easily convert a lower case letter to upper case by modifying a single bit. You can't do that in Unicode. But Unicode is so widespread by now that trying to create an alternative would most likely cause more problems that solve. So, it is here to stay, for better or worse. Perhaps not forever, but for a reasonable period of time. > It takes a lot of ingenuity to screw up the very basic idea that was put >into the system design, however as we know Microsoft programmers are very >skilled at that. If you look at Microsoft APIs, filesystems and recent >document formats, the use of Unicode is in the very heart of them (and >being a amateurish conspiracy theorist I consider it to be one of their >means of interface obfuscation). Yes, it's in their API but it still sucks. The main problem is that that API only really works on NT, so a programmer who wants to support both NT and the 95/98/2000 variety really cannot use the Unicode variety (not to mention it is limited to 16 bits, so it does not support ISO 10646). > Unix handles all encodings well precisely because currently it's >encodings-independent, and adding the support for any of them is a >relatively small effort. Then there should be no problem adding Unicode support, right? :) > I believe, the design of such infrastructure is much more important and >practical task than "adoption of Unicode" (that I regard as being just as >practical as conversion of /etc/passwd and output of ifconfig into XML, >adding embedded objects support in login prompt or rewriting init in >java). Again, it's not about "adoption" of Unicode, it's about supporting Unicode for those who need it. Going Unicode-only would not be wise, but I don't see anyone here suggesting that. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8:17:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mycenae.ilion.eu.org (mycenae.ilion.eu.org [203.35.206.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6EE37B64D for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrykz@ilion.eu.org) Received: from mycenae.ilion.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mycenae.ilion.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14140; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:17:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from patrykz@mycenae.ilion.eu.org) Message-Id: <200004041517.BAA14140@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Alex Belits , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:05:44 EST." <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:17:08 +1000 From: Patryk Zadarnowski Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- > >everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone > >else. > > I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already because > I did some work and it is in the ports. OK, I didn't say anything ealier because I though it was fairly obvious that anyone dealind with a *mixed* environment beyond that of ISO 8859-1 (even if that means just a mixture of ISO 8859-1/2) would find Unicode support in the kernel a blessing from the heaven. Let me restate that: I will use it. Currently, if you have a group of ISO 8859-2 users on the system , the ISO 8859-1 people see them as meaningless junk. I don't even want to think about something like Arabic. Pat. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Patryk Zadarnowski University of New South Wales School of Computer Science and Engineering -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8:39:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (ha1.rdc1.ct.home.com [24.2.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4AF37B734 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tsikora@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.2.168.186]) by mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000404153945.VLDE24587.mail.rdc1.ct.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:39:45 -0700 Message-ID: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:40:38 -0400 From: Ted Sikora Reply-To: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com Organization: Jtl Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: 4.0-STABLE? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wanted to upgrade several production servers to 4.0 and follow the stable branch. Has 4.0-STABLE been established yet or is stable still RELENG_3? I planned on installing 4.0-RELEASE and then using CVSup with RELENG_4. -- Ted Sikora Jtl Development Group tsikora@powerusersbbs.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8:45:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from astralblue.com (adsl-209-76-108-39.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.76.108.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70AF37B6E3 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:45:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Received: from localhost (ab@localhost) by astralblue.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05133; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:35:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Alex Belits Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , MikeM , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: | On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: | | > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having | > >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure | > | > Everyone who works with multilingual documents. | | I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English | and Russian text without Unicode. Please, try thinking wider. Ever thought a mixture of Russian, Hebrew, Korean and English? AFAIK no CCS other than Unicode currently can handle this. | | > Everyone who wants to | > follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually | > exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally. | | "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from | Unicode Consortium. | | > Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: | > "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO | > 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding | > scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all | > text." | | This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never | was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any | input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by | dozens. True, personally I don't like the way Unicode Consortium operates either; I'd prefer a more open system such as IETF. However, it seems an error to brand Unicode as a bad-motivated idea just because the operating body is less ideal. And given that RFC 2277 is just a BCP (Best Current Practice) but not a `standard' document, it doesn't have to be approved by anyone either. If you don't feel right about it, why don't you send a short e-mail message to its author? | | > >-- I am Russian. | > | > So? | | So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Charset definitions in MIME | headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can | create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning | them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and | dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be | processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence. Nobody is banning anything. Please be reminded that RFC 2277 only mandates the support for UTF-8. One can still go ahead and use US-ASCII, EUC-KR, or whatever you want so far as the protocol supports character set designation such as MIME. And again, RFC 2277 is a BCP. Unlike standards, BCPs has no enforcing power at all. | | One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can | be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same | tools without any complex "this is text and this is not" | application-specific procedures. UTF-8 turns "text" into something that | gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream | of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and | "non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal | with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. In | Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats | this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as | text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable | outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even | encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's | a violation of some very basic rules. Yes, it is true that the entire UN*X world is so deeply rooted in single byte-oriented world and it's hard to come up with a reasonable migration path to the multibyte world. But that doesn't justify the byte-oriented system. It has all too many limitations (which you might not realize until you had to mix all different languages in one document; I did :-p), and there has to be an alternative. I'm not saying that the entire UN*X world should migrate to the Unicode world in months. We all know that is just impossible. Eugene -- Eugene M. Kim "Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music which people like, or make people who like your music." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 9:16:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ddg.com (eunuch.ddg.com [216.30.58.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBAB37B739 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rkw@dataplex.net) Received: from nomad.dataplex.net (24.28.73.209) by mail.ddg.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:16:39 -0500 From: Richard Wackerbarth To: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com, Ted Sikora Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:00:01 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain References: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> In-Reply-To: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00040411163701.25816@nomad.dataplex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 04 Apr 2000, Ted Sikora wrote: > I wanted to upgrade several production servers to 4.0 and follow the > stable branch. Has 4.0-STABLE been established yet or is stable still > RELENG_3? I planned on installing 4.0-RELEASE and then using CVSup with > RELENG_4. Ignore "STABLE" and "CURRENT". The branches are RELENG_3, RELENG_4, and . the head branch. You can follow any of them that you wish. Hopefully the FreeBSD team will eventually learn to use database concepts in their naming conventions. If they did, "stable" and "current" would be aliases to the invariant name of the underlying development branch. A few years back, "the wife of the President of the United States" was "Barbara". Now it is "Hillary". But in a proper database, you don't store it that way { WifeOf(Office) ==> Lady } and have to change it when the elections roll around. Instead you store: WifeOf (Politician) ==> Lady and Officeholder (Office) ==> Politician That way, when the election rolls around, you simply change the Officeholders and the rest is automatic. In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 10:21:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from intra.daemontech.net (intra.daemontech.net [208.138.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9225437BB2E for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: (qmail 37780 invoked by uid 200); 4 Apr 2000 17:21:16 -0000 Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (208.138.46.10) by intra.daemontech.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 2000 17:21:16 -0000 Content-Length: 1547 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:21:16 -0800 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com Subject: RE: 4.0-STABLE? Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Apr-00 Ted Sikora wrote: > I wanted to upgrade several production servers to 4.0 and follow the > stable branch. Has 4.0-STABLE been established yet or is stable still > RELENG_3? I planned on installing 4.0-RELEASE and then using CVSup with > RELENG_4. > > -- > Ted Sikora > Jtl Development Group > tsikora@powerusersbbs.com > Heh... I tried to CVSUP to 4.0-STABLE and mistakenly chose 4.0-current in the pkg_setup... I wound up with a very nice 5.0-CURRENT machine... Chose 3.X and that is also what you get... You have to set /etc/cvsup manually to RELENG_4 at the moment. Nicole > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product. -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In Your Computer Today? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 11:16:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay02.chello.nl (relay02.chello.nl [212.83.68.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EC937B525 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay02.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 99c8f334c649856e3f2cdadc4054e412) with ESMTP id <20000404181537.GVHS15447.relay02@chello.nl> for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:15:37 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01400 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:15:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:15:52 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: FreeBSD hackers list Subject: DEFPA PCI FDDI cards for trade Message-ID: <20000404201552.A1363@yedi.wbnet> Reply-To: wc.bulte@chello.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG !! Before someone shouts at me: I know this is not a FS list But I know some folks were looking for FDDI cards to use on their FreeBSD machines. So that's why.. I have 2 brandnew surplus Digital DEFPA-AB (SAS, MMF, PCI) cards for trade. Please contact me *off-list* if you are interested. -- Wilko Bulte Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org http://www.tcja.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 11:25:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD58837B7D6 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09757; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:03:58 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:03:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: MikeM , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English > >and Russian text without Unicode. > > Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in > English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There is only > one standard that makes it possible: Unicode. Too bad UTF-8 did not exist > at the time, and I had to use graphics. There is another format that does the same thing better -- MIME multipart documents. Too bad, the development in that direction stopped after certain stupid decision made by some people in IETF. > >> Everyone who wants to > >> follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually > >> exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally. > > > "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from > >Unicode Consortium. > > I don't know what you mean by "unificators." Why self proclaimed? Those > were people with a need for which they found a solution. With a need to find a cause to break backward compatiobility with everything and sell more software -- just like ITU. I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and communications. > Unicode Consortium > has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely > accepted. So far only by one company actually "accepted" it -- Microsoft. Everyone else (except Java/Sun) just happened to be depended on them. Java and Plan9 are special cases because both are essentially endless storages of ivory-tower design idiosyncrasy and arbitrary decisions made by handful of people. > You're free to create your own system, or ignore it all together. > But just because you see no need for Unicode does not mean you should be > upset when people are willing to work on Unicode support in FreeBSD. I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone else. > > >> Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: > >> "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO > >> 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding > >> scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all > >> text." > > > This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never > >was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any > >input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by > >dozens. > > Affected in what way? Many ways of encoding Unicode were proposed, > developed, and used. Most of them are history by now. UTF-8 is the best way > to encode Unicode to this day. Don't like it? Design a better one. I am not talking about Unicode representations and encodings but about Unicode itself. I agree that UTF-8 is the only way to marry Unicode with text and Unix, however I don't see much point in doing that. > > >> >-- I am Russian. > >> > >> So? > > > > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. > > Who's forcing it on you? IETF. All recent RFCs are littered with referenced to UTF-8 in all places where reasonable standards would have "8-bit clean" with no explicit low-level semantics attached. > > Charset definitions in MIME > >headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can > >create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning > >them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and > >dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be > >processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence. > > You are worried about nothing. No one in this discussion has said anything > about making anything but Unicode and UTF-8 "illegal." Supporting Unicode > does not mean stopping support for everything else. I have spent enough time with "unicoders" to become convinced that the depth of changes they demand in protocols and libraries is enough to make it a game of "everything or nothing" -- partial implementations become unsafe because the design of libraries and prococols hinges on the idea that only one charset/encoding may exist, so no ways to provide charset and encoding are left. > > One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can > >be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same > >tools without any complex "this is text and this is not" > >application-specific procedures. > > Nothing complex about it. UTF-8 uses a very simple algorithm which makes it > very simple to distinguish text from non-text. This is the problem. There is no "text" and "non-text" -- there is "valid UTF-8" and everything else. Software designed in "unix style" can't do heuristics and guess that if the data has some properties (such as passing UTF-8 validity test) it is really some particular kind of data and should be treated in some different manner. It's irresponsible to assume that everything that "looks like UTF-8" is a text, and everything else is "binary" unless all the program does is displaying the data to the user. What is worse there is the situation where the UTF-8 validity test is applied to some endless stream (such as data arriving to stdin) -- for how long the data should contain only valid UTF-8 sequences to be considered "text"? And what should the program do if somewhere in the middle of 65537'th megabyte a "non-text" sequence of bytes is found? > >UTF-8 turns "text" into something that > >gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream > >of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and > >"non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal > >with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. > > You don't have to treat everything as the stream of UTF-8 encoded Unicode. > Again, supporting Unicode does not mean EVERYTHING must be Unicode. That > would not make sense, at least not now. It may in the future. Unicode is > here to stay. So was Microsoft. Almost all mentionings of "is here to stay" that I have heard in last seven years were about Microsoft and its standards. I hope people are now slowly starting to realize that this particular monster is as little immortal as others were before it. > >In > >Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats > >this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as > >text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable > >outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even > >encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's > >a violation of some very basic rules. > > What does Windows have to do with Unicode? Windows support for Unicode > sucks royally. Except for NT, Windows' Unicode support is virtually > non-existent. It takes a lot of ingenuity to screw up the very basic idea that was put into the system design, however as we know Microsoft programmers are very skilled at that. If you look at Microsoft APIs, filesystems and recent document formats, the use of Unicode is in the very heart of them (and being a amateurish conspiracy theorist I consider it to be one of their means of interface obfuscation). > When did it stop Unix programmers from doing something Microsoft cannot > handle? Unix already handles Unicode better than anything under Windows. > For example, Lynx handles Unicode quite well, and it does it on text-only > displays that have no way of supporting a multitude of fonts. Unix handles all encodings well precisely because currently it's encodings-independent, and adding the support for any of them is a relatively small effort. However lacking the _infrastructure_ to support charset/encoding/language information along with the text (MIME was a good start but it was insufficient, and its development stopped too soon, so it's horribly outdated now) it can become a "battleground of formats" just like everything else is now, and it will be very sad if the at the result the flexibility will be lost, and some bloated "standard" will emerge just because a bunch of people were able to organize their "standard committee" aggressive enough to silence everyone else, like it already happened at IETF. I believe, the design of such infrastructure is much more important and practical task than "adoption of Unicode" (that I regard as being just as practical as conversion of /etc/passwd and output of ifconfig into XML, adding embedded objects support in login prompt or rewriting init in java). -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 12: 7:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C7137B56E for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09937; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:08:39 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 22:51 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be > >useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate > >as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and > >communications. > > Oh, I think it's great for communications. I design web sites. It is good > to have a single character representation supported by Internet standards. > Saves a lot of work. Before UTF-8 became widely accepted, a typical Slovak > web page started by a menu of choices of which encoding your browser > supported. You had to have 3 - 4 versions of each page. A major pain! Now > you only need one. This is a problem, however Unicode is not the only solution -- actually it's the worst of all solutions -- it solves simple problem only to create a lot of complex ones. > > Or even when designing English pages in a typographically correct way > (opening and closing quotes, and things like that), it was a pain before > UTF-8 because while ISO-8859-1 is the assumed default, Microsoft, in its > infinite wisdom created a slight modification of ISO-8859-1 which they > called ANSI, and which the uninitiated commonly believed to be the same as > ISO-8859-1. As a result, there are a myriad of web pages out there that use > the Microsoft encoding, and there are those that use true ISO-8859-1. So > many browsers assume that you are using the MS "standard." It's a real mess. Misrepresentation of one popular encoding in software of one company doesn't mean that it should be replaced with another, much more complex one, by everyone else. > > So, in all my recent pages I use UTF-8, and the problem is solved. > > >> Unicode Consortium > >> has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely > >> accepted. > > > > So far only by one company actually "accepted" it -- Microsoft. Everyone > >else (except Java/Sun) just happened to be depended on them. Java and > >Plan9 are special cases because both are essentially endless storages of > >ivory-tower design idiosyncrasy and arbitrary decisions made by handful of > >people. > > I was not talking about companies. I was talking about people with genuine > i18n needs. People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient, and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I agree that local encodings are very limiting in the form they exist now, however they, not Unicode, are standards used in real life. If some encapsulation format (not as limited as iso 2022 and not as restrictive as MIME multipart) will be created to support multiple charsets/encodings/languages in one document in labeled chunks, the same problem would be solved with minimal changes in existing software and minimal document conversion efforts. This solution will be far superior to Unicode, and even for "web" use it can be made compatible with charsets support in existing browsers. [skipped without much of disagreement] > Again, it's not about "adoption" of Unicode, it's about supporting Unicode > for those who need it. Going Unicode-only would not be wise, but I don't > see anyone here suggesting that. After looking at what happened to IETF documents, XML and perl I can only come to conclusion that Unicode, once included in some system that didn't have multiple-charset document support infrastructure before that, starts requiring more and more sacrifices to be supported decently until the support of other encodings becomes impossible or significantly more difficult than support of Unicode. I am not against the support of any charset, encoding or language used in the real world, Unicode included. However after seeing how Unicode "support" efforts quickly turn into "adoption" all across the libraries/protocols/applications layers, I believe that only if some decent charset/encoding/language labeling infrastructure will be developed, it will be possible to contain charsets and prevent their "leaking" to application level. Leaking of ASCII (infamous 7-bit restriction that was present for no understandable reason in a lot of protocols and utilities) was a painful enough experience already, and it looks like it's fixed in most of stuff by now. Leaking of local charsets (especially iso 8859-1 and its modifications) was bad, however it was mostly prevented by locale support (even though it is clumsy and unusable in multilingual documents). Leaking of Unicode and UTF-8 can start something even worse because it's already evident that many applications written to support UTF-8 character format, have the hardcoded assumption of this format in their i/o and parsing routines that otherwise are supposed to be either charset-blind, or use external, charset-dependent routines to determine characters boundaries. I don't want to be misunderstood as the opponent of all things Unicode -- as I have said, its support is useful. However I oppose: 1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best possible way to handle multilingual documents. 2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not. I see the "support" or "adoption" of Unicode as a threat only if it will be made based on those ideas, and I think that the development of charset/encoding/language labeling or encapsulation format and handling routines, even if it will not be "blessed" by IETF or TOG, will provide means of safe, compatible and relatively easy handling of multilingual documents, including ones that are completely or in part are in Unicode. Unicode documents themselves suffer from the lack of language-labeling information, and there is (currently unused however "standardized") way to label _language_ (not charset, subset or encoding) within the Unicode text. It's not used because it contradicts with the idea of "easy", completely stateless and non-encapsulated Unicode text, so its support is allmost completely impossible in existing Unicode support infrastructures. Instead language labeling is pushed up into XML (or other formats) parsers and applications thus making it application-dependent and ultimately unreliable. I think that if some more reasonable labeling (encapsulation, metadata or attributes handling -- in whatever way it will be called) system will be created for text "documents", it can solve this problem by just assigning charset, encoding and language to pieces of text, and leaving "unknown" or unattributed text alone, not allowing language-specific or charset-dependent routines to touch it. In system like this Unicode will be labeled as Unicode, UTF-8 will be labeled as UTF-8, and Russian language will be labeled as Russian language independently, thus allowing to build a languages support infrastructure that in most of places can use existing formats safely as languages will be clearly marked where known, no guesswork will be applied, and no conversion to Unicode (or anything else) will be required. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:36:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4935B37B77C for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11027 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA27385; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:35:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:35:57 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Currently FreeBSD issues a very large number of NFSv3 commit rpcs when writing a sequential file. They average out to about one every 64k or so. Solaris, on the other hand, issues only a handful. At least when running against a Solaris NFS server, these frequent commits really kill our write bandwidth. The commits are initiated out of the bufdaemon: nfs_commit(e06866c0,360000,0,10000,c8aa5e00) at nfs_commit+0x52a nfs_doio(d3088158,c8aa5e00,0,d3088158,40084040) at nfs_doio+0x371 nfs_strategy(ddef1ec0) at nfs_strategy+0x68 nfs_writebp(d3088158,1,ddee5920,ddef1ef8,c0180e42) at nfs_writebp+0xdc nfs_bwrite(ddef1eec,c02a15c0,e06866c0,d3088158,ddef1f28) at nfs_bwrite+0x16 bawrite(d3088158,d30faff0,0,40084040,d30fbae8) at bawrite+0x32 cluster_wbuild(e06866c0,2000,1b8,10,d30fc328) at cluster_wbuild+0x493 vfs_bio_awrite(d30fc328,3f,c0181f8c,c016aef5,0) at vfs_bio_awrite+0x1a4 flushbufqueues(0,8000,c024be00,0,b0206) at flushbufqueues+0x116 buf_daemon(0) at buf_daemon+0x8f fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0x8 The "problem" is that flushbufqueues calls vfs_bio_awrite on the buf's that need commiting. We then go through the overhead of clustering up 64k worth of data & pass it down. It eventually ends up in nfs_doio() which finally realizes that the bufs just need to be committed & calls nfs_commit() on them. This is repeated for every 64k of data. I have an idea on how to reduce these commits & a proof of concept implementation of it. My idea is to have nfs_doio() call a function (which I've called nfs_megacommit()) to consolodate all the B_NEEDCOMMIT bufs from a particular file into one large commit. This nfs_megacommit() function is basically a cut-n-paste of the top half of nfs_flush(). I just tried it this morning & it appears to work. Over a 1Gb/s (Alteon, Jumbo frames) link, my write bandwidth increases from 5-8MB/sec to 17-18MB/sec when talking to a Solaris (2.7, i86) NFS server & writing a 375MB file. The server's nfsstat looks like this. Before: Version 3: (54262 calls) null getattr setattr lookup access readlink 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 3 0% 0 0% read write create mkdir symlink mknod 0 0% 48325 89% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 5932 10% After: Version 3: (48078 calls) null getattr setattr lookup access readlink 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 0 0% read write create mkdir symlink mknod 0 0% 48027 99% 1 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 48 0% Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally broken? Is it worth pursuing? Thanks, Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:48:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73CAE37B98D for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA77264; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:48:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:48:43 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops Message-ID: <20000404154843.A76160@dan.emsphone.com> References: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu>; from "Andrew Gallatin" on Tue Apr 4 16:35:57 GMT 2000 X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the last episode (Apr 04), Andrew Gallatin said: > > Currently FreeBSD issues a very large number of NFSv3 commit rpcs > when writing a sequential file. They average out to about one every > 64k or so. Solaris, on the other hand, issues only a handful. Hmm. Mounting a Solaris box and creating a large file, I see commits too (a 64K commit every 128K or so on my system). Mounting another FreeBSD box, I see absolutely no commits at all. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@emsphone.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:51:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C849137BA5E for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:51:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e34LGf802564; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:16:41 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops Message-ID: <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu>; from gallatin@cs.duke.edu on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 04:35:57PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Andrew Gallatin [000404 14:03] wrote: > > Currently FreeBSD issues a very large number of NFSv3 commit rpcs when > writing a sequential file. They average out to about one every 64k or > so. Solaris, on the other hand, issues only a handful. > > At least when running against a Solaris NFS server, these > frequent commits really kill our write bandwidth. > > The commits are initiated out of the bufdaemon: > > nfs_commit(e06866c0,360000,0,10000,c8aa5e00) at nfs_commit+0x52a > nfs_doio(d3088158,c8aa5e00,0,d3088158,40084040) at nfs_doio+0x371 > nfs_strategy(ddef1ec0) at nfs_strategy+0x68 > nfs_writebp(d3088158,1,ddee5920,ddef1ef8,c0180e42) at nfs_writebp+0xdc > nfs_bwrite(ddef1eec,c02a15c0,e06866c0,d3088158,ddef1f28) at nfs_bwrite+0x16 > bawrite(d3088158,d30faff0,0,40084040,d30fbae8) at bawrite+0x32 > cluster_wbuild(e06866c0,2000,1b8,10,d30fc328) at cluster_wbuild+0x493 > vfs_bio_awrite(d30fc328,3f,c0181f8c,c016aef5,0) at vfs_bio_awrite+0x1a4 > flushbufqueues(0,8000,c024be00,0,b0206) at flushbufqueues+0x116 > buf_daemon(0) at buf_daemon+0x8f > fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0x8 > > The "problem" is that flushbufqueues calls vfs_bio_awrite on the buf's > that need commiting. We then go through the overhead of clustering up > 64k worth of data & pass it down. It eventually ends up in nfs_doio() > which finally realizes that the bufs just need to be committed & calls > nfs_commit() on them. This is repeated for every 64k of data. > > I have an idea on how to reduce these commits & a proof of concept > implementation of it. My idea is to have nfs_doio() call a function > (which I've called nfs_megacommit()) to consolodate all the > B_NEEDCOMMIT bufs from a particular file into one large commit. This > nfs_megacommit() function is basically a cut-n-paste of the top half > of nfs_flush(). > > I just tried it this morning & it appears to work. Over a 1Gb/s > (Alteon, Jumbo frames) link, my write bandwidth increases from > 5-8MB/sec to 17-18MB/sec when talking to a Solaris (2.7, i86) NFS > server & writing a 375MB file. The server's nfsstat looks like this. > > Before: > > Version 3: (54262 calls) > null getattr setattr lookup access readlink > 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 3 0% 0 0% > read write create mkdir symlink mknod > 0 0% 48325 89% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% > remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus > 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% > fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit > 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 5932 10% > > > After: > > Version 3: (48078 calls) > null getattr setattr lookup access readlink > 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 0 0% > read write create mkdir symlink mknod > 0 0% 48027 99% 1 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% > remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus > 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% > fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit > 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 48 0% > > > Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally > broken? Is it worth pursuing? http://www.freebsd.org/~alfred/nfs_supercommit_broken.diff only grab as many adjacent blocks as possible, you don't want to scan the entire file's buffer list for each commit, you also don't want to interfere with other client's caching forcing sever commits on thier behalf. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:57:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE0437BAB9 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:57:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id WAA22914 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:57:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA44510 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:53:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: 4 Apr 2000 22:53:19 +0200 Message-ID: <8cdknv$1bel$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Belits wrote: > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- I WILL. I want to be able to mention Henry Charri{e grave}re and Stanis{l stroke}aw Lem in a single document and spell those names correctly. Actually, that's a real world example. I already do on a web page, and of course this is only possible because of the underlying Unicode character set of HTML. I want to be able to give a book title in Cyrillic or Greek. I want to be able to quote from _Beowulf_. I *desperately* want to use IPA rather than various ad-hoc ASCII transcriptions. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:59:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BDC37BB25 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11781; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA27427; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops In-Reply-To: <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14570.22237.61025.935384@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein writes: > > > > Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally > > broken? Is it worth pursuing? > > http://www.freebsd.org/~alfred/nfs_supercommit_broken.diff > > only grab as many adjacent blocks as possible, you don't want to > scan the entire file's buffer list for each commit, you also don't > want to interfere with other client's caching forcing sever commits > on thier behalf. > I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken? (the name sorta implies that it us ;) Thanks! Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 14: 7:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15AD37BF03 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e34LWhg03112; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:32:43 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops Message-ID: <20000404143243.S20770@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net> <14570.22237.61025.935384@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <14570.22237.61025.935384@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu>; from gallatin@cs.duke.edu on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 04:59:00PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Andrew Gallatin [000404 14:25] wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein writes: > > > > > > Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally > > > broken? Is it worth pursuing? > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/~alfred/nfs_supercommit_broken.diff > > > > only grab as many adjacent blocks as possible, you don't want to > > scan the entire file's buffer list for each commit, you also don't > > want to interfere with other client's caching forcing sever commits > > on thier behalf. > > > > I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken? > (the name sorta implies that it us ;) I'm not sure, i did it a while back and ran out of time to get it working, it functions in the strategy layer and tries to grab adjacent commit blocks to the already clustered IO. I think I may have some math errors or something, I haven't had time to give it a retry in a while. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 14:58:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F64837B8DF for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:58:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA241448; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:58:04 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200004041517.BAA14140@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> References: <200004041517.BAA14140@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:58:46 -0400 To: Patryk Zadarnowski , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: Alex Belits , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:17 AM +1000 4/5/00, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote: > > > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered > > > "I will" -- everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it > > > will benefit someone else. > > > > I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already > > because I did some work and it is in the ports. > >OK, I didn't say anything ealier because I though it was fairly >obvious that anyone dealing with a *mixed* environment beyond that of >ISO 8859-1 (even if that means just a mixture of ISO 8859-1/2) would >find Unicode support in the kernel a blessing from the heaven. Let me >restate that: I will use it. Currently, if you have a group of ISO >8859-2 users on the system , the ISO 8859-1 people see them as >meaningless junk. I don't even want to think about something like >Arabic. I also think this issue is so obvious that it seems silly to even have to mention it. If anyone is working on unicode support in any part of the system, then more power to them. Even if no one did use unicode support, it is mighty nice to have it sitting there should the need arise. If there is a superior alternative down the road, let's call that unicode-II, then it would also be great if FreeBSD has support for that too. I am not aware of any current alternative which is as widely pursued as unicode, though, and it seems pretty obvious that it would benefit FreeBSD if we were among the operating systems which understand what to do with it. I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO* options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing. If some specific change for unicode does break things, then I can see arguing that change. I can't fathom why anyone would argue against unicode support per se. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 15: 7: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA1537B81A for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (ppp3.patr.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.18]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22854; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:05:11 +0200 (GMT) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00986; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:08:56 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:08:56 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Alex Belits Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , MikeM , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from > > > having Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It > > > isn't me for sure > > > > Everyone who works with multilingual documents. > > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain > English and Russian text without Unicode. This is bilingual. I have found myself in the need to write in English, Modern Greek (one accent), and Ancient Greek (many accents). This is not possible using 8-bit fonts, since the glyphs for the accented ancient greek alone are much more than 128. Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the console is a Good Thing(TM). - Giorgos Keramidas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 15:58:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C07D37B8B7 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA218776; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:58:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:59:31 -0400 To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:08 PM +0300 4/4/00, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > ... I have found myself in the need to write in English, >Modern Greek (one accent), and Ancient Greek (many accents). This >is not possible using 8-bit fonts, since the glyphs for the accented >ancient greek alone are much more than 128. > >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support >on the console is a Good Thing(TM). I am sure that many an administrator has found themselves staring at the console at some point in their life, and thinking: "This is all Greek to me..." :-) --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 16: 5:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (alemail1.lucent.com [192.11.221.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688CC37B5A5 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gcorcoran@lucent.com) Received: from alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06532 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mhmail.mh.lucent.com (h135-3-115-8.lucent.com [135.3.115.8]) by alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06519 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by mhmail.mh.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id TAA27064; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38EA75BD.EEA71C22@lucent.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:07:41 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Help? Device driver 'make depend' errors from comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since I received exactly ZERO responses to my plea for help in making my network device driver a loadable module, I'm now trying to compile my driver into the kernel. First, I made up a makefile and got my driver compiling cleanly standalone in my directory. So the code is known good with respect to compiling under FreeBSD with gcc. Then I moved the code under the /sys hierarchy, fixed up my configuration file, and did a 'config' for my kernel. So far, so good. But then when I moved to the compile directory and did a 'make depend', all heck broke loose. I'm getting hundreds of errors and/or warnings. Checking the code, it seems to be complaining (or rather getting confused) about two major things: 1. Comments following a #if or #ifdef, for example: #ifdef FOO // not yet tested While this only generates a 'warning', I'm also getting actual (supposed) errors about 'unbalanced #endif' and the like. Though it is possible these errors are related to problem number 2 instead: 2. It complains (doesn't say 'warning' so I suppose it takes them as errors?) about "unterminated string or character constant" whenever I have an apostrophe WITHIN A // COMMENT !!! For example, just including the word "don't" within a comment is causing problems. So how do I "turn off" these "features" of 'make depend' ??? ;-) Now this is a common codebase for this driver, which compiles fine for Windows and Linux, and, as mentioned above, it compiles fine (stand-alone) for FreeBSD. So obviously it is syntactically-good C code for gcc, so why am I having all these problems? There are over 50,000 lines of code, so please don't tell me to go changing all the comments and #if lines! Any (other :) suggestions would be appreciated... Thanks, Gary -- ======================================================= Gary Corcoran - Distinguished Member of Technical Staff Lucent Microelectronics - Client Access Broadband Systems Communications Protocol & Driver Development Group "We make the drivers that make communications work" Email: gcorcoran@lucent.com ------------------------------------------------------- There are only two kinds of machines - those that fail little by little, and those that fail all at once. ======================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17: 2:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3BC37B780 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA82357; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:02:20 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404200220.A82098@sasami.jurai.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 11:03:58AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 11:03:58AM -0700: > > On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English > > >and Russian text without Unicode. > > > > Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in > > English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There is only > > one standard that makes it possible: Unicode. Too bad UTF-8 did not exist > > at the time, and I had to use graphics. > > There is another format that does the same thing better -- MIME > multipart documents. You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of Russian sentences? I don't think so. > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- > everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone > else. I will. I need to handle French, Hebrew, and Russian, often in the same document. I want to be able to publish Russian poetry in its original pre-1917 spelling, which includes letters missing from existing Russian encodings. I need IPA. I need math symbols not just in TeX documents. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:18:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (spirit.jaded.net [216.94.113.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C7737B945 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:18:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA08325; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:19:40 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help? Device driver 'make depend' errors from comments Message-ID: <20000404201940.A8265@spirit.jaded.net> References: <38EA75BD.EEA71C22@lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38EA75BD.EEA71C22@lucent.com>; from gcorcoran@lucent.com on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:07:41PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | First, I made up a makefile and got my driver compiling cleanly | standalone in my directory. So the code is known good with respect | to compiling under FreeBSD with gcc. Then I moved the code under | the /sys hierarchy, fixed up my configuration file, and did a 'config' | for my kernel. So far, so good. | | But then when I moved to the compile directory and did a 'make depend', | all heck broke loose. I'm getting hundreds of errors and/or warnings. | Checking the code, it seems to be complaining (or rather getting | confused) about two major things: [ snip. ] When you compile standalone, do you use the same -W options as the kernel does when it compiles? That may account for the millions of warnings you getting when trying to build your driver with the regular kernel build. Cheers, -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Waste not fresh tears on old griefs." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:22: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F31937B595 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11234 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:22:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:22:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO* > options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even > if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing. The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". As demands for sopisticated processing of multilingual texts will increase, "Unicode-only" systems will demonstrate their ridiculous limits and ambiguity, however if no multiple-charset/multiple-language infrastructure in libraries, formats, protocols, text and document editors and interpreter-based programming languages will be in place, there will be no way to improve the situation. This is why I think that the design of the language support infrastructure is an extremely important taks, and if it will succeed, efficient, modularized support of charsets/encodings, including Unicode, can be implemented painlessly. > If some specific change for unicode does break things, then I can > see arguing that change. I can't fathom why anyone would argue > against unicode support per se. I am not against the support for Unicode. I just never have seen an attempt of providing usable Unicode support that didn't leave scorched earth to any other possible attempt of supporting multilingual environment or even single-charset environment other than iso8859-1 or Unicode. I think that instead of blind following the ideas of "one charset" we need to design something that can painlessly accept various charsets in the same document/stream/etc (just like MIME does in its own clumsy way). If Unicode support will be implemented on top of it, I will be the last person to criticize it. -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:25:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1C537B8F5 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11265; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:26:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:26:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000404200220.A82098@sasami.jurai.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of > Russian sentences? > > I don't think so. This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:38:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533D137BCAB for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11385; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:34:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, > > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of > > Russian sentences? > > > > I don't think so. > > This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or > sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the > headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later. I have to add that I agree that the way, MIME multipart is handled is primitive and inconvenient for such applications, however this is not the result of any flaw in its design, only of the lack of progress after "everything should adopt Unicode" doctrine was declared. One may argue that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of typesetting. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:53:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r37.bfm.org [216.127.220.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDEB37B828 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA00277; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:52:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:51:44 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alex Belits Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404195144.A261@whizkidtech.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE X-SG-Player-ID: 0278852114 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I don't want to be misunderstood as the opponent of all things Unicode >-- as I have said, its support is useful. However I oppose: > >1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best >possible way to handle multilingual documents. > >2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense >of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some >unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine >if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not. Then you have nothing to fear. This is FreeBSD we are talking about. This is not some control freak company. We will have as much, or as little, Unicode support as we put in it. I don't see anyone saying we should drop everything in favor of Unicode, let alone do I see anyone volunteering to do it. -- Where two fight, third one wins -- Slovak proverb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 18: 2:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (rh18.bfm.org [216.127.220.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E79C37B8EA for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA00285; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:00:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:59:55 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE X-SG-Player-ID: 0278852114 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the >console is a Good Thing(TM). I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations. The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding). If you change it for one character, you change it for everything on the console. And this was designed by *International* Business Machines! :) I see the main way of supporting Unicode in providing libraries that programs can use to convert between Unicode and local display. I did some of it with my i18ntools. I wanted to do more, but could not due to health reasons, as mentioned already. I am in a better shape now, and hopefully will be able to resume the work I started. But it won't happen in the near future for reasons other than else (mostly because I am broke and am concentrating my programming efforts on software I can sell - but when my current project is completed, I will *probably* do more work on Unicode support for FreeBSD). Cheers, Adam -- Suppose you were an idiot. Suppose you were a member of Congress. But I'm repeating myself... -- Mark Twain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 18:16:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (rh24.bfm.org [216.127.220.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B2837B8A4 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:16:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA00293; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:14:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:14:12 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alex Belits Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000404201412.C261@whizkidtech.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE X-SG-Player-ID: 0278852114 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print >characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much >flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as >the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we >know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be the most inclusive one in existence. I also strongly disagree with your view of it being simplistic. Unicode is not, and never was, meant to be a high level linguistic system. Rather, it provides primitives for such a system. It is a map, nothing else. It is system-independent. It does not even specify how the map is to be encoded (e.g., UTF-8, or 16 bits, etc). The Unicode Consortium does provide all kinds of text files that help programmers use the map better: They provide such information as which character is upper case, lower case, digit, control, etc; how to convert upper case to lower case, and things like that. It does not, for example, provide sorting order. It cannot. Unicode is not about linguistics, it is about mapping characters regardless of their use in specific languages. And different languages sort characters differently. For example, in Slovak, "ch" is considered a character which belongs after the "h". In other languages it is sorted differently. And in most languages, it is just two unrelated characters. Unicode is not simplistic. It does what its stated goal is, and it does it well. How we use it, is up to us. Cheers, Adam P.S. Hmmm... Interesting. I noticed my random quote contains a C-caron. I wonder how it is going to be handled. :) -- Can you imagine the silence if everyone said only what he knows! -- Karel Èapek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 18:48:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (adsl-63-193-112-57.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.112.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7A737B50B for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00561; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200004050153.SAA00561@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help? Device driver 'make depend' errors from comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:07:41 EDT." <38EA75BD.EEA71C22@lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 18:53:20 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Since I received exactly ZERO responses to my plea for help in making > my network device driver a loadable module, I'm now trying to compile > my driver into the kernel. Go back to the module if this is for 4.x; I don't recall your original post, sorry, but feel free to pass it back off the list. > Now this is a common codebase for this driver, which compiles fine > for Windows and Linux, and, as mentioned above, it compiles fine > (stand-alone) for FreeBSD. So obviously it is syntactically-good > C code for gcc, so why am I having all these problems? There are > over 50,000 lines of code, so please don't tell me to go changing > all the comments and #if lines! Any (other :) suggestions > would be appreciated... Oh joy. It was probably written for MSVC in that case. You're going to have to compile as a module in order to get different compiler warning flags; the code you're trying to build isn't really valid C and you'll have to work around this. Please let us look at your module problems again, and poke me specifically about it if you're not getting answers. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:18:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D269537BC59 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:18:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11683; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:19:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:19:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000404201412.C261@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's > >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print > >characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much > >flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as > >the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we > >know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". > > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be > the most inclusive one in existence. It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing. [skipped] > It does not, for example, provide sorting order. It cannot. Unicode is > not about linguistics, it is about mapping characters regardless of their > use in specific languages. And different languages sort characters > differently. For example, in Slovak, "ch" is considered a character > which belongs after the "h". In other languages it is sorted differently. > And in most languages, it is just two unrelated characters. This is the kind of work that currently nonexistent language support infrastructure should do -- when some language is encountered in "multilingual" document/protocol/... its name can be used to load the procedures (in this case sorting but it may be hyphenation, phonetic match, etc.) for that particular language, and if no matched language is known or supported, data should be just left alone. The same infrastructure can be designed to support charsets and encodings, doing conversion between them (and unicode) only where possible and necessary, and providing the text in either "original" or "preferred", "supported", etc. encoding for the language for the particular operation that should be performed on the text. If such thing will be implemented, all existing charset-specific routines that now exist in various places, can be reused, and compatibility with existing software can be achieved without any significant pain. > Unicode is not simplistic. It does what its stated goal is, and it does > it well. How we use it, is up to us. > > Cheers, > Adam > > P.S. Hmmm... Interesting. I noticed my random quote contains a C-caron. > I wonder how it is going to be handled. :) It was handled pretty well for such a primitive system as pine in xterm. Since your charset was iso 8859-2, it was marked as such in Content-Type header of the message. pine given me a warning: ---8<--- [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-2" character set. ] [ Your display is set for the "koi8-r" character set. ] [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] --->8--- and displayed the text. xterm used the default font that happened to be in koi8-r charset, displaying C-caron as cyrillic ha. I have read the warning, manually switched xterm to a font in iso 8859-2 charset, and text was displayed correctly. If I used a gui-based MUA such as Netscape (what I didn't because Netscape Messenger sucks for reasons that have nothing to do with its charsets support), it would just display the message in the charset defined in the header. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:33:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C3B37B732 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA72623; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:33:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004050233.TAA72623@apollo.backplane.com> To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Andrew Gallatin , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops References: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net> <14570.22237.61025.935384@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20000404143243.S20770@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> :> I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken? :> (the name sorta implies that it us ;) : :I'm not sure, i did it a while back and ran out of time to get it :working, it functions in the strategy layer and tries to grab adjacent :commit blocks to the already clustered IO. : :I think I may have some math errors or something, I haven't had time :to give it a retry in a while. : :-- :-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] :"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." If I remember the right patch, I think my comment on it was that the buffers should use non-blocking locks rather then blocking locks in order to avoid deadlocks, which it looks like you did. This may still patch into -stable but it probably isn't safe to patch into -current. It still looks a little rough but the general concept is sound. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:41:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (ha1.rdc1.nj.home.com [24.3.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B7F37B732; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garycor@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.3.185.85]) by mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000405024146.YVKR20681.mail.rdc1.nj.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:41:46 -0700 Message-ID: <38EAA7CF.2748A088@home.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:41:19 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: "Gary T. Corcoran" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help? Device driver 'make depend' errors from comments References: <200004050153.SAA00561@mass.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > Go back to the module if this is for 4.x; I originally asked about making a network driver module for 3.4. I was hoping for either a "here's how you do it" or at least an "it's not possible with 3.4" response... > > Now this is a common codebase for this driver, which compiles fine > > for Windows and Linux, and, as mentioned above, it compiles fine > > (stand-alone) for FreeBSD. So obviously it is syntactically-good > > C code for gcc, so why am I having all these problems? There are > > over 50,000 lines of code, so please don't tell me to go changing > > all the comments and #if lines! Any (other :) suggestions > > would be appreciated... > > Oh joy. It was probably written for MSVC in that case. How did you guess?... ;-) Yes, originally developed for Windows. Ported to Linux (as a module) without many problems; now I'm the "lone wolf" trying to add support for FreeBSD... > You're going to have to compile as a module in order to get different > compiler warning flags; Okay - that's what I needed to know. It looks like I should definitely be targeting 4.x instead of 3.x. :( I'll install 4.0, see if there are any network driver module examples, and get back to you-all if I have any more problems... Thanks, Gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:42: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCB337B732 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from gh (modem138.linkfast.net [208.160.105.138]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E8F99B0F for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:41:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002101bf9ea8$7e6e10a0$fc69a0d0@linkfast.net.linkfast.net> From: "gh" To: References: Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:41:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Regardless of how you feel about Unicode--whatever, just think of how horribly terrible things would be if people actually had to *speak* to one another. gah, the torture. ;-) Dan gh > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's > > >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print > > >characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much > > >flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as > > >the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we > > >know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". > > > > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be > > the most inclusive one in existence. > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related > problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure > and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing. > > [skipped] > > > It does not, for example, provide sorting order. It cannot. Unicode is > > not about linguistics, it is about mapping characters regardless of their > > use in specific languages. And different languages sort characters > > differently. For example, in Slovak, "ch" is considered a character > > which belongs after the "h". In other languages it is sorted differently. > > And in most languages, it is just two unrelated characters. > > This is the kind of work that currently nonexistent language support > infrastructure should do -- when some language is encountered in > "multilingual" document/protocol/... its name can be used to load the > procedures (in this case sorting but it may be hyphenation, phonetic > match, etc.) for that particular language, and if no matched language is > known or supported, data should be just left alone. The same > infrastructure can be designed to support charsets and encodings, doing > conversion between them (and unicode) only where possible and necessary, > and providing the text in either "original" or "preferred", "supported", > etc. encoding for the language for the particular operation that should be > performed on the text. If such thing will be implemented, all existing > charset-specific routines that now exist in various places, can be reused, > and compatibility with existing software can be achieved without any > significant pain. > > > Unicode is not simplistic. It does what its stated goal is, and it does > > it well. How we use it, is up to us. > > > > Cheers, > > Adam > > > > P.S. Hmmm... Interesting. I noticed my random quote contains a C-caron. > > I wonder how it is going to be handled. :) > > It was handled pretty well for such a primitive system as pine in > xterm. Since your charset was iso 8859-2, it was marked as such in > Content-Type header of the message. pine given me a warning: > > ---8<--- > [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-2" character set. ] > [ Your display is set for the "koi8-r" character set. ] > [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] > --->8--- > > and displayed the text. xterm used the default font that happened to be in > koi8-r charset, displaying C-caron as cyrillic ha. I have read the > warning, manually switched xterm to a font in iso 8859-2 charset, and text > was displayed correctly. If I used a gui-based MUA such as Netscape (what > I didn't because Netscape Messenger sucks for reasons that have nothing to > do with its charsets support), it would just display the message in the > charset defined in the header. > > -- > Alex > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! > -- Anonymous Coward > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:45:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C447E37B88B for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e353Ajq13630; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:10:45 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Andrew Gallatin , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops Message-ID: <20000404201045.B20770@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <14570.10864.359054.10598@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net> <14570.22237.61025.935384@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20000404143243.S20770@fw.wintelcom.net> <200004050233.TAA72623@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004050233.TAA72623@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:33:43PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Matthew Dillon [000404 19:59] wrote: > :> > :> I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken? > :> (the name sorta implies that it us ;) > : > :I'm not sure, i did it a while back and ran out of time to get it > :working, it functions in the strategy layer and tries to grab adjacent > :commit blocks to the already clustered IO. > : > :I think I may have some math errors or something, I haven't had time > :to give it a retry in a while. > : > :-- > :-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > :"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." > > If I remember the right patch, I think my comment on it was > that the buffers should use non-blocking locks rather then > blocking locks in order to avoid deadlocks, which it looks like > you did. > > This may still patch into -stable but it probably isn't safe > to patch into -current. It still looks a little rough but > the general concept is sound. There's some definite funkyness with the patch, it just doesn't DTRT. When I have time I'll try again, perhaps Andrew will give it a shot. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22: 5:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8715437BCE7 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p11-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.12]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id OAA11412; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:05:16 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38EAC99F.642CE420@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:05:35 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Wackerbarth Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com, Ted Sikora , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? References: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> <00040411163701.25816@nomad.dataplex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > > In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ... Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the hunger. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22: 6:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFE537B851 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p11-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.12]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id OAA11606; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:19 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38EAC9D9.329074B9@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:06:33 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Nicole Harrington." Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com, "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Nicole Harrington." wrote: > > Heh... I tried to CVSUP to 4.0-STABLE and mistakenly chose 4.0-current in the > pkg_setup... I wound up with a very nice 5.0-CURRENT machine... Chose 3.X and > that is also what you get... You have to set /etc/cvsup manually to RELENG_4 at > the moment. Don't you have /usr/share/examples/cvsup/4.x-stable-supfile? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the hunger. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22:17:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ddg.com (eunuch.ddg.com [216.30.58.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4E137BDCE for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rkw@dataplex.net) Received: from nomad.dataplex.net (24.28.73.209) by mail.ddg.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:17:12 -0500 From: Richard Wackerbarth To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:17:09 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.38] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> <00040411163701.25816@nomad.dataplex.net> <38EAC99F.642CE420@newsguy.com> In-Reply-To: <38EAC99F.642CE420@newsguy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00040500170900.10108@nomad.dataplex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > > In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ... > Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches. But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is "RELENG_4". If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would have to change the repository to match your description. I advocate that we change the description to match the repository. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22:33:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from intra.daemontech.net (intra.daemontech.net [208.138.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F26C37B89A for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: (qmail 49296 invoked by uid 200); 5 Apr 2000 05:33:52 -0000 Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (208.138.46.10) by intra.daemontech.net with SMTP; 5 Apr 2000 05:33:52 -0000 Content-Length: 1708 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38EAC9D9.329074B9@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:33:51 -0800 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , tsikora@powerusersbbs.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Apr-00 Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > "Nicole Harrington." wrote: >> >> Heh... I tried to CVSUP to 4.0-STABLE and mistakenly chose 4.0-current in >> the >> pkg_setup... I wound up with a very nice 5.0-CURRENT machine... Chose 3.X >> and >> that is also what you get... You have to set /etc/cvsup manually to RELENG_4 >> at >> the moment. > > Don't you have /usr/share/examples/cvsup/4.x-stable-supfile? > Yup.. however if you use.. " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz " It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions.. Nicole > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net > > The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the > hunger. nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product. -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In Your Computer Today? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 23:46:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r45.bfm.org [216.127.220.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741FB37B93E for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:46:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id BAA00244; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:45:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:44:55 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alex Belits Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405014455.A228@whizkidtech.net> References: <20000404201412.C261@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE X-SG-Player-ID: 0278852114 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it >is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related >problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure >and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing. Abusus non tollit usum! Besides, you were criticizing the Unicode Consortium for this. The Consortium is certainly not representing Unicode as anything but a character map. Alex, frankly, we are moving in circles here. Let's drop this thread. Adam -- When a finger points at the Moon... do you look at the Moon? Or, do you prefer to worship the finger? -- Unknown Zen Master To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 23:59:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nets5.rz.rwth-aachen.de (nets5.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27BD37BC6C for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by nets5.rz.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1/10) with ESMTP id IAA16936 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:59:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1/3) with ESMTP id JAA17404 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:00:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) id IAA62867 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <200004050659.IAA62867@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: chmod (gnu version) -c switch Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While adapting a script that was originally written for Linux I came across an option -c --changes to chmod which verbosely lists the files whose permissions are actually changed by chmod. Is there a way to have this under FreeBSD also? Like another set of these elementary utilities one can switch over temporarily? Do /compat/linux/bin programs work ? Would changing the path towards picking these binaries first be a solution in that case? -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 0:12:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from linux.ssc.nsu.ru (linux.ssc.nsu.ru [193.124.219.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9235A37B7AB for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:08:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru) Received: (qmail 6515 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2000 07:08:08 -0000 Received: from inet.ssc.nsu.ru (62.76.110.12) by hub.freebsd.org with SMTP; 5 Apr 2000 07:08:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (danfe@localhost) by inet.ssc.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28500 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:42 +0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:42 +0700 (NOVST) From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: fork test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! Me and a friend of mine decided to compare FreeBSD and Linux using this little program (compiled with "gcc -lm") Two identical machines run FreeBSD 4.0-SNAP 20000214 and Linux Mandrake 7.0 kernel 2.2.13 ---------------------------------- #include double counter=0,counter2=32; double test() { return atan2(counter++,counter2+=counter*50); } int main() { int t; while((t=fork())>0); if(!t) while(1) test(); else perror("fork"); } ---------------------------------- Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w", "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD. What the heck does that suppose to mean?! I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux butt? Please respond directly to me since I am not the member of this list. Thanks. Cheers, /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+ E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+ t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what? A good conspiracy is unprovable. I mean, if you can prove it, it means they screwed up somewhere along the line. Jerry Fletcher from Conspiracy Theory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 0:23:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Draculina.otdel-1.org (Draculina.Otdel-1.ORG [195.230.65.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3039437B6AF for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:23:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nms@otdel-1.org) Received: by Draculina.otdel-1.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 02382F5; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:23:10 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:23:10 +0400 From: Nikolai Saoukh To: Alex Belits Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405112310.A8755@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > sufficient, and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I agree that > local encodings are very limiting in the form they exist now, however > they, not Unicode, are standards used in real life. If some encapsulation > format (not as limited as iso 2022 and not as restrictive as MIME > multipart) will be created to support multiple > charsets/encodings/languages in one document in labeled chunks, the same > problem would be solved with minimal changes in existing software and > minimal document conversion efforts. This solution will be far superior to > Unicode, and even for "web" use it can be made compatible with charsets > support in existing browsers. You are comparing apples and oranges. Read carefully Unicode authors papers. Unicode is just plain character enumaration, nothing else. All i18n and related problems must be solved some other means above unicode level. It is pity that unicode authors succumbered to pressure and started to add features like directionality, .... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 0:47: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D138437BE7B for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:47:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21656; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:47:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Nicole Harrington." Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , tsikora@powerusersbbs.com Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:33:51 -0800." Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:47:37 -0700 Message-ID: <21653.954920857@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yup.. however if you use.. > " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz " > > It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now > being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions.. Mea culpa - I meant to fix this and got distracted away from it. Thanks for the reminder. The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly so that simply: pkg_add -r cvsupit Should now work just fine. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 1:14: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F024B37B8C5 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12339; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:15:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:15:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000405014455.A228@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > >is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related > >problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure > >and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing. > > Abusus non tollit usum! Besides, you were criticizing the Unicode > Consortium for this. The Consortium is certainly not representing > Unicode as anything but a character map. Actually I criticize IETF, W3C, software companies and "internationalization" standards that they produce. Unicode consortium has its own share of troublemaking and arrogance, however replacement of languages support with Unicode adoption became the IETF policy on "internationalization". > Alex, frankly, we are moving in circles here. Let's drop this thread. Huh? -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 1:15:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from intra.daemontech.net (intra.daemontech.net [208.138.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26D8137BEB6 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: (qmail 52192 invoked by uid 200); 5 Apr 2000 08:15:20 -0000 Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (208.138.46.10) by intra.daemontech.net with SMTP; 5 Apr 2000 08:15:20 -0000 Content-Length: 1544 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21653.954920857@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:15:20 -0800 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com, Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com, "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Daniel C. Sobral" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Apr-00 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Yup.. however if you use.. >> " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz " >> >> It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now >> being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions.. > > Mea culpa - I meant to fix this and got distracted away from it. > Thanks for the reminder. > > The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch > state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly > so that simply: > > pkg_add -r cvsupit > > Should now work just fine. > > - Jordan And there was happiness in the land again... and they all rejoiced ... YAYYYYY!! Nicole nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product. -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In Your Computer Today? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 1:35:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns.uninet.ee (ns.uninet.ee [194.204.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E36937BE34 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taavi@uninet.ee) Received: by ns.uninet.ee (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 92EA125865; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:35:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.uninet.ee (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E0B214A20; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:35:43 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:35:43 +0200 (EET) From: Taavi Talvik To: Alex Belits Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > > I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO* > > options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even > > if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing. > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's > based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print > characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much > flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as > the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we > know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India together are >2 billion possible users. best regards, taavi ----------------------------------------------------------- Taavi Talvik | Internet: taavi@uninet.ee Unineti Andmeside AS | phone: +372 6405150 Ravala pst. 10 | fax: +372 6405151 Tallinn 10143, Estonia | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 2: 1:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4D537B968; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA16570; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:01:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fork test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings > and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w", > "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that > Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD. What > the heck does that suppose to mean?! I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux > butt? FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program? You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 2: 3:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5895937B7D3; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA16845; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: chmod (gnu version) -c switch In-Reply-To: <200004050659.IAA62867@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > While adapting a script that was originally written for Linux > I came across an option -c --changes to chmod which verbosely > lists the files whose permissions are actually changed by chmod. > > Is there a way to have this under FreeBSD also? Like another set of > these elementary utilities one can switch over temporarily? You mean like chmod -v? Of course, neither -c nor -v are portable so care should be taken in their use. > Do /compat/linux/bin programs work? Yes, but there's no need. > Would changing the path towards > picking these binaries first be a solution in that case? I don't recommend that. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 2:38:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4B137BDB1 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12561; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:38:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:38:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Taavi Talvik Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Taavi Talvik wrote: > > the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we > > know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". > > Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India > together are >2 billion possible users. They don't use "true multilingual" software -- they have their own charsets and encodings, and are quite content with them, not having to care about others' charsets. Contrary to popular belief, Chinese and Japanese are not waiting for benevolent American programmers to provide them with "multilingual" software -- they just use local charsets in existing one, sometimes having to modify it (in rather ad-hoc manner) to support multibyte where necessary. It can be called shortsightedness or isolationism, but this is how things are -- market for true multilingual software is in its infancy. Poorly designed solutions for multilingual documents handling are considered to be acceptable because people who are "targeted" by them neither use them nor really care about multilingual documents, and people who actually use those things have very limited applications. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 3:24:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6432637B5B3 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 03:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p39-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.104]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id TAA27500; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:22:46 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38EB1409.9CCD920@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:23:05 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Wackerbarth Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? References: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> <00040411163701.25816@nomad.dataplex.net> <38EAC99F.642CE420@newsguy.com> <00040500170900.10108@nomad.dataplex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > > On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > > > In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ... > > Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches. > > But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is > "RELENG_4". > > If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would have to > change the repository to match your description. I advocate that we change > the description to match the repository. Ah, you are asking for we dropping "stable" completely, and simple refer to the (stable) branches as RELENG_3, RELENG_4, etc? Sorry, I had misunderstood you. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the hunger. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 3:30:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867FF37BC35 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 03:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA05099 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:30:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA72938 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:19:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: 5 Apr 2000 12:19:03 +0200 Message-ID: <8cf3un$2771$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000320194702.11223.qmail@web3101.mail.yahoo.com> <20000329033908.A14122@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000402051559.A52041@happy.checkpoint.com> <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wrote: > I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. > I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and > -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area I just got a note from our dear postmaster that freebsd-i18n will be created within the next couple of days. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 3:56: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7F037BC18 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 03:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id DB5AE8666; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:55:49 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <20000405125549.05360@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:55:49 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Belits on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:34:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:34:55PM -0700: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > > > > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, > > > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of > > > Russian sentences? > > > > > > I don't think so. > > > > This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or > > sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the > > headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later. > > I have to add that I agree that the way, MIME multipart is handled is > primitive and inconvenient for such applications, however this is not the > result of any flaw in its design, only of the lack of progress after > "everything should adopt Unicode" doctrine was declared. > One may argue > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of > typesetting. But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong problem. In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in "real life" right now -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of universal text standard. I don't like this, but currently the Unix world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that, and I think that's a wonderful thing. It's fine for you to talk about what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence, but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 5:11:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D149737B7C1 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcov@toad.stack.nl) Received: from hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46] by kweetal.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA12441 (ESMTP); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:11:36 +0200 (MDT) Received: from deathstar (n188.dial.tue.nl [131.155.209.187]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3702E802 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:11:35 +0200 (CEST) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:10:35 +0100 Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD References: <20000405014455.A228@whizkidtech.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Message-Id: <20000405121135.8E3702E802@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get UNICODE support are we thinking of? Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 5:11:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0922437B7D3 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcov@toad.stack.nl) Received: from hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46] by kweetal.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA12454 (ESMTP); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:11:38 +0200 (MDT) Received: from deathstar (n188.dial.tue.nl [131.155.209.187]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1C92E804 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:11:37 +0200 (CEST) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:10:36 +0100 Subject: Re: fork test References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Message-Id: <20000405121137.CF1C92E804@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings > > and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w", > > "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that > > Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD. What > > the heck does that suppose to mean?! I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux > > butt? > > FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being > unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program? > You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide. Linux 2.2.x still supports only 1024 processes I believe. Rumour goes that 2.4 supports 16384 processes, so poster should try a 2.3.99pre kernel. P.s. this is one of the weirdest benchmarks I have ever seen :-) Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 7:42:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1-12.onmedia.com (mx1-12.onmedia.com [209.133.35.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF1637B9FF for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from p_a_r@goplay.com) Received: from GP1 (root@localhost) by mx1-12.onmedia.com (8.8.8/OICP2.0.5b1/8.8.8/OICP2.0.5b1) with OICP id HAA16923 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OnMedia Mail (GPX1) by mx1-12.onmedia.com ($Revision: 2.3 $) with OICP id 82629011; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:40:38 -0800 Subject: Question. Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:37:56 -0800 Message-Id: <82629011.12.1636@mx1-12.onmedia.com> Reply-To: "p_a_r" From: "p_a_r" To: hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello i'm writing an article about open source and i need some feedback about FreeBSD vs Linux. So can you hackers help me whita that. Whats so good in FreeBSD and whats bad in Linux... Joe Fisher +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The coolest site for free home pages, email, chat, e-cards, movie info.. | | http://www.goplay.com - it's time to Go Play! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 8:21:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C58C37BD35 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (mbac@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22351; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:21:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from localhost (mbac@localhost) by bsd1.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20484; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:21:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) X-Authentication-Warning: bsd1.nyct.net: mbac owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:21:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Bacarella To: Marco van de Voort Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fork test In-Reply-To: <20000405121137.CF1C92E804@hermes.tue.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being > > unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program? > > You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide. > > Linux 2.2.x still supports only 1024 processes I believe. Rumour goes that > 2.4 supports 16384 processes, so poster should try a 2.3.99pre kernel. Vanilla Linux 2.2.x supports 512 processes, defined by NR_TASKS. 4090 is a hardware limit that can't be passed in 2.2.x Linux 2.4.x will support an unlimited number of processes up to the point of 256^sizeof(pid_t). Most people will probably run out of RAM before they hit this limit. Poster should screw benchmarks out of fear of holy war. :) -MB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 10: 9:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FC237BD92 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13727; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:10:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:10:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000405125549.05360@techunix.technion.ac.il> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of > > typesetting. > > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong > problem. It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply. > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in > "real life" right now This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical merit. > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of > universal text standard. Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again. > I don't like this, but currently the Unix > world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that, > and I think that's a wonderful thing. UTF-8 provides a way to display a lot of characters -- that's all. And this is nowhere close to being enough -- if we want to be superior to pretty-pictures-oriented Windows software, we need to provide advantages over it, not absorb its weaknesses. We need to provide multilingual functionality, not just multilingual display -- if that will be done, half-assed languages support in Windows/Word will look like a sad joke. > It's fine for you to talk about > what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking > standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence, > but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took > it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task > anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen. What do you mean, "didn't happen"? Who is here writing software but we ourselves? I am trying to explain why the development in that area should be done despite stupid decisions made by IETF precisely because I expect it to be done as the result -- by myself or by others. I will be happy to start this work, however without others' input I am afraid that it will become yet another thing based on idiosyncrasy rather than on good design ideas -- sad example of Java makes me feel rather uneasy about starting a thing that no one seems to understand or care about. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 11:26:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from astralblue.com (adsl-209-76-108-39.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.76.108.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1844337B952 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Received: from localhost (ab@localhost) by astralblue.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10713; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Alex Belits Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: | On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: | | > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, | > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of | > > typesetting. | > | > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual | > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong | > problem. | | It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode | does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true | multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode | text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply. Yet again, Unicode is _not_ a multilingual solution; it's rather an aid. There are literally tons of problems like case folding, hyphenation (as you mentioned), Chinese simplified letter support, directionality, ligature formation and so on, which must be flattened out by a true multilingual solution. The current Unicode try to address these problems but it doesn't claim it solves or will solve them. (Read the Unicode spec carefully, please, and you will see what I mean.) And this fact is actually a consensus which can be seen on any serious i18n discussion group. | | > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian | > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not | > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the | > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in | > "real life" right now | | This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use | Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and | poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical | merit. We are speaking about the `real world' here -- the world as it is now. In other words, it's an installation base that we must consider in any effort of envisioning a new i18n scheme. | | > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's | > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of | > universal text standard. | | Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some | pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was | mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again. | | > I don't like this, but currently the Unix | > world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that, | > and I think that's a wonderful thing. | | UTF-8 provides a way to display a lot of characters -- that's all. And that's exactly one of the things that we want as a part of multilingual solution. | And this is nowhere close to being enough -- if we want to be | superior to pretty-pictures-oriented Windows software, we need to | provide advantages over it, not absorb its weaknesses. We need to | provide multilingual functionality, not just multilingual display -- | if that will be done, half-assed languages support in Windows/Word | will look like a sad joke. Unicode doesn't necessarily mean a bad multilingual functionality. What makes a good m17n scheme is _how we use_ tools like Unicode (as a multilingual display tool). True, there's a lot of inappropriate m17n approaches using Unicode (most of which directly project Unicode to be the m17n scheme, as you pointed out), but so far I didn't see any factor in Unicode itself that it will make it hard to envision a good m17n scheme. | | > It's fine for you to talk about | > what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking | > standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence, | > but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took | > it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task | > anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen. | | What do you mean, "didn't happen"? Who is here writing software but we | ourselves? I am trying to explain why the development in that area should | be done despite stupid decisions made by IETF precisely because I expect | it to be done as the result -- by myself or by others. I will be happy to | start this work, however without others' input I am afraid that it will | become yet another thing based on idiosyncrasy rather than on good design | ideas -- sad example of Java makes me feel rather uneasy about starting a | thing that no one seems to understand or care about. If you don't feel right about the current approach by IETF, and you've got enough confidence how it should be, then I strongly suggest you start the work right away. I think there are tons of programmers and other experts, my being one of course, who will gladly give some input towards this type of effort. It's more of a matter of where to look for those; for example, there are couple of m17n/i18n WGs in IETF where a lot of people are willing to throw in their voice. Regards, Eugene -- Eugene M. Kim "Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music which people like, or make people who like your music." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 12: 5:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA9137BE41 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA181774; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:00:12 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:00:52 -0400 To: Alex Belits , Anatoly Vorobey From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:10 AM -0700 4/5/00, Alex Belits wrote: >On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, > > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of > > > typesetting. > > > > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual > > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong > > problem. > > It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode >does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true >multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode >text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply. I think what you need to do is present the alternative to unicode that you want people to use. Not just complaints about unicode, although I do understand some of the points you're raising, but an actual implementation or something considerably more concrete than just dissing unicode or some of the more fanatical backers of unicode. > > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian > > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not > > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the > > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in > > "real life" right now > > This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use >Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and >poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical >merit > > > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's > > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of > > universal text standard. > > Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some >pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was >mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again. All of which is utterly irrelevant to reality. How we (the computer industry) are in the mess we are in belongs in some philosophy mailing list. The reality is that real-world users ARE IN FACT using MS-Word because that lets them do something they want to do. If we do not let them do those same things, then we can't very well complain that they stick to MS-Word while we sit in some ivory tower and bitch and moan about "how good it should be". Either we MAKE IT as good as it should be, or we at least shut up and provide people SOME way to do what they want to do. I think the recent comments have clarified things a bit, in that it sounds like you're not complaining about unicode changes per se. You just seem to want to make sure that any unicode changes also leave the door open to more extensive changes which you feel are needed before the job is really done right. That much more understandable to me. On the other hand, it still seems to me that people interested in unicode changes for FreeBSD should just go ahead and start working on them, and hope that anyone with a wider-scope will provide input to those changes. However, I do not think the unicode changes should wait until after some other super-wonderful solution is ironed out. I emphatically deny the view that supporting unicode now will dictate anything about what we do in the future, any more than the past should dictate that we never get unicode support working. I don't see any point in further debate on whether there should be unicode support, I think anyone interested in doing ANY work should be encouraged to do so, and anyone else interested in the issues can contribute their ideas on implementation issues. Note that I am not disagreeing with your views on what is necessary for a long-term solution, I just think that working on a mid-term solution is better than doing nothing at all in the area. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 12:27: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ddg.com (eunuch.ddg.com [216.30.58.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4307B37B7BE for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rkw@dataplex.net) Received: from nomad.dataplex.net (24.28.73.209) by mail.ddg.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:26:56 -0500 From: Richard Wackerbarth To: dcs@newsguy.com Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:26:54 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.38] Content-Type: text/plain References: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> <00040500170900.10108@nomad.dataplex.net> <38EB1409.9CCD920@newsguy.com> In-Reply-To: <38EB1409.9CCD920@newsguy.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00040514265400.13842@nomad.dataplex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel Sobral wrote: > > But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is > > "RELENG_4". > > > > If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would > > have to change the repository to match your description. I advocate that > > we change the description to match the repository. > > Ah, you are asking for we dropping "stable" completely, and simple refer > to the (stable) branches as RELENG_3, RELENG_4, etc? Sorry, I had > misunderstood you. Naturally, I would not use the "RELENG_" but refer to them as FreeBSD-3 or some other isomorphic usr-friendly label. I would get rid of "-STABLE" part of elsewhere because it is redundant. However, I would not discard "STABLE" entirely. I would just make an alias or symbolic link to the most recent release that deserves that "blessing". BTW, I think it was a mistake to attach the "blessing" so soon after the branch was created. But that is another discussion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14: 2:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7693C37BD6C for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA00106; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:02:04 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:59:55PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, G. Adam Stanislav, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:59:55PM -0500: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the > >console is a Good Thing(TM). > > I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations. > The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding). If > you change it for one character, you change it for everything on the > console. And this was designed by *International* Business Machines! :) a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently supported by FreeBSD, but can be. b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes used as if they were text modes -- the characters gets drawn very quickly by the VGA renderer code using their representation in the font file (it is my understanding, though I might be wrong, that Linux doesn't support these). In these modes, you could draw arbitrarily many different glyphs at the same time, once Unicode support is added. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:30:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D385137B888 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA00486; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:30:38 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Marco van de Voort Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000405121135.8E3702E802@hermes.tue.nl>; from marcov@stack.nl on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Marco van de Voort, were spotted writing this on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100: > > > I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get > UNICODE support are we thinking of? I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes: a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications that desire so obtain Unicode input directly; b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts, get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow creation of unified font files describing many languages at once. c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover, in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed at once. d) userland applications wouldn't feel a thing, and will continue to receive pure 8-bit stream translated from/to Unicode by syscons by way of a user-supplied encoding table. UTF-8 may play a role of one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired. I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea, my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria, they will be reviewed and committed. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:43:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BA737BB76 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id XAA11370 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:43:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA93191 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:49:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: 5 Apr 2000 22:49:46 +0200 Message-ID: <8cg8ta$2qvu$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the > >console is a Good Thing(TM). > > I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations. > The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding). Actually, if you can spare an attribute bit you can handle 512 characters in text mode on a plain VGA card. pcvt(4) uses this to keep all of CP437, ISO Latin 1, various DEC character sets, and a range of definable characters available. > I see the main way of supporting Unicode in providing libraries that > programs can use to convert between Unicode and local display. ... and to handle UTF-8. Yes. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:43:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F252B37B939 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id XAA11375 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:43:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA93816 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:08:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: 5 Apr 2000 23:08:25 +0200 Message-ID: <8cga09$2rja$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404201412.C261@whizkidtech.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Belits wrote: > > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be > > the most inclusive one in existence. > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related > problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure Who says so? Certainly not the Unicode enthusiasts I have met. You are arguing against a strawman. Unicode takes care of character repertoire, code points, and (with UTF-*) encoding. In no way does it touch on language labeling. > and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing. A claim that would be obviously absurd. However, I do consider Unicode a sensible part of any new implementation. ISO 2022 (and what other dinosaurs that may be lurking in murky shadows) is a legacy solution that should die off. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:43:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A9737BA1E for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id XAA11377 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:43:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA94631 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:38:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Date: 5 Apr 2000 23:38:32 +0200 Message-ID: <8cgboo$2scu$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Belits wrote: > People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > sufficient, Linguists are interested in languages, not in computer character set issues. They are just users who expect their *applications* to work. They don't know and don't want to know about arcane things such as the current mess of 8-bit character sets and MIME. (Well, not being a linguist myself that's certainly the impression I get from sci.lang.) Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding into areas where *no* previous character sets have existed at all. > and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I'm not a linguist and I want Unicode. By yesterday. > However I oppose: > > 1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best > possible way to handle multilingual documents. > > 2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense > of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some > unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine > if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not. Wonderful. You are pretty much in agreement with Unicode supporters all over the world. You are arguing against a non-existent opponent. It's boring. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:55: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r42.bfm.org [216.127.220.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C191F37BA5C for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA00277; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:52:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:52:43 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405165243.C245@whizkidtech.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net> <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net>; from mellon@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:04PM -0400 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:04PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently >supported by FreeBSD, but can be. > >b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes >used as if they were text modes Good points. Somehow I was not thinking about that. Cheers, Adam -- Apply standard disk lamer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:59:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r42.bfm.org [216.127.220.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0780137BB48 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:59:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA00285; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:56:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:56:57 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: Marco van de Voort , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405165657.D245@whizkidtech.net> References: <20000405121135.8E3702E802@hermes.tue.nl> <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net>; from mellon@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:30:38PM -0400 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:30:38PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of >the issues involved, etc. Yes, you clearly do. :) > However I am neither a committer nor a >member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea, >my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do >a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This >is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide >Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be >welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue >and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria, >they will be reviewed and committed. I'd say: Go for it. The core never decides on ideas, as far as I know. They only decide on code after it is written. You may want to talk to Soren since he has done most of the console work. It is better if your effort is coordinated with his. Cheers, Adam -- "Let's eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may diet" -- Seen on a dining room wall... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:17:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from scam.xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E733E37B9BB for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:17:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu) Received: (qmail 3210 invoked by uid 27268); 5 Apr 2000 22:17:20 -0000 Message-ID: <20000405221720.3209.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3208.954973040.1@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:17:20 -0700 From: Jason Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > sufficient, What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"? Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our software to UNICODE (UCS-2 encoded). Actually, of all people, the "linguists" seems to like it the most (besides some wanting UCS-4). -jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:29:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E3D37C26E for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:29:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15202; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:30:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:30:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Jason Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000405221720.3209.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Jason wrote: > > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > > sufficient, > > What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"? > Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our > software to UNICODE (UCS-2 encoded). Actually, of all people, the "linguists" > seems to like it the most (besides some wanting UCS-4). Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:41:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DAF37BB4C for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:41:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from babkin@bellatlantic.net) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-135-100.bellatlantic.net [151.198.135.100]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA28405; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38EBC333.4E30E878@bellatlantic.net> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:50:27 -0400 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: ru, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE? References: <21653.954920857@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch > state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly > so that simply: By the way, a stupid question: I've received a 4-CDROM package today, saying 4.0-March 2000. The line on the shipping list says that it's -current. But is not -current 5.0 now, and 4 CDROMs ? So I wonder, is it really -current or -stable ? -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:44:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E6837B6A3 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:44:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15263; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:45:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <8cga09$2rja$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > the most inclusive one in existence. > > > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related > > problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure > > Who says so? Certainly not the Unicode enthusiasts I have met. > You are arguing against a strawman. I would be happy if it was a nonexistent point of view, however it happens to be exactly what I hear from people who are trying to "standardize on UTF-8" FTP, HTML, NNTP and even DNS. Their arguments? "who needs any other charsets or languages? just force everyone to replace them with UTF-8, put UTF-8 handling into all software and all languages-related problems will be solved". One of shining examples of this is someone Martin Duerst, however he is not alone there. [skipped] > > A claim that would be obviously absurd. > However, I do consider Unicode a sensible part of any new > implementation. ISO 2022 (and what other dinosaurs that may be > lurking in murky shadows) is a legacy solution that should die off. iso 2022 is a dinosaur -- it's inflexible. However labeling of charsets and languages in general is definitely necessary for any decent languages-handling functionality. Even if the charset is Unicode, languages still have to be labeled somewhere to make any use of the text in processing, and if labeling is unavoidable, multiple-charsets model is in no way inferior to Unicode, plus it allows easy addition of charsets and variants of them without Unicode consortium approval as long as something handles the charset and language names. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:50:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D71937B915 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15299; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:51:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:51:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <8cgboo$2scu$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since > it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't > been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding > into areas where *no* previous character sets have existed at all. I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life -- "Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many similarities. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 16:24:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r12.bfm.org [216.127.220.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E84837B915 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA00242; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:23:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:22:34 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alex Belits Cc: Jason , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405182234.A226@whizkidtech.net> References: <20000405221720.3209.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:30:22PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:30:22PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage. Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop, towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your application will assign points within the private use are to soap, mop, towel, etc. You are fighting wind mills, my friend. Cheers, Adam -- Don't send me spam, I'm a vegetarian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 16:29:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r12.bfm.org [216.127.220.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D0237BC27 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA00250; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:28:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:28:19 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alex Belits Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000405182819.B226@whizkidtech.net> References: <8cgboo$2scu$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life -- >"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been >achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many >similarities. Give me a break! I grew up in a Communist country. A remark like that is a slap in my face. Especially from someone who, obviously, has personally experienced Communism. I could see a Montana Freeman making a comparison like that, but not a Russian emigré. To compare Unicode to the suffering imparted by the Communists on almost two thirds of the world is ridiculous in the least, and outright offensive. Adam -- This signature intentionally left blank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 17: 7:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FD337B54F for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15516; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:08:40 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:08:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000405182819.B226@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life -- > >"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been > >achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many > >similarities. > > Give me a break! I grew up in a Communist country. A remark like that > is a slap in my face. Especially from someone who, obviously, has > personally experienced Communism. I could see a Montana Freeman making > a comparison like that, but not a Russian emigré. I refer only to my idea of the possible validity of the statement, I have no intention to actually compare Unicode Consortium and Communist Party. > To compare Unicode to the suffering imparted by the Communists on almost > two thirds of the world is ridiculous in the least, and outright > offensive. This is not a place to discuss my feelings toward political doctrines, however I don't see why hatred toward communists is supposed to be somehow "sacred". I always considered that people have unlienable right to poke fun at all kinds of troubles that they faced, and I think that with 23 years spent in Russia I qualify for that pretty well. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 17:19:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1B137B6CB for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15549; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:21:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:21:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Jason , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000405182234.A226@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great > >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private > >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? > > Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage. > Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create > a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop, > towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds > of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your > application will assign points within the private use are to soap, > mop, towel, etc. This is what it was intended for, however this is not how it is used. I understand why Unicode Consortium is unlikely to include Klingon alphabet into "blessed" by them charset, however the use of private area for Klingon is hardly application-specific. When instead of fictional (even though relatively well-known) charset the question is about the representation of "obscure" or even hypothetic details of some real-world charset, things become much more hairy. Labeling of charsets and languages in multiple-charsets environment (even if in the case of Klingon the "charset" is Unicode with something added in the private area) can eliminate ambigiuty without involving ISO, Unicode consortium, etc. and without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes. > You are fighting wind mills, my friend. [ witty comment about Klingons and windmills is left as an exercise to the reader ;-) ] -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 18: 3:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mycenae.ilion.eu.org (mycenae.ilion.eu.org [203.35.206.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D5937B645 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrykz@ilion.eu.org) Received: from mycenae.ilion.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mycenae.ilion.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05805; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:01:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from patrykz@mycenae.ilion.eu.org) Message-Id: <200004060101.LAA05805@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> To: Alex Belits Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Jason , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:21:07 MST." Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:01:18 +1000 From: Patryk Zadarnowski Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great > > >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private > > >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? > > > > Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage. > > Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create > > a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop, > > towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds > > of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your > > application will assign points within the private use are to soap, > > mop, towel, etc. > > This is what it was intended for, however this is not how it is used. I > understand why Unicode Consortium is unlikely to include Klingon alphabet > into "blessed" by them charset, however the use of private area for > Klingon is hardly application-specific. When instead of fictional (even > though relatively well-known) charset the question is about the > representation of "obscure" or even hypothetic details of some real-world > charset, things become much more hairy. Labeling of charsets and languages > in multiple-charsets environment (even if in the case of Klingon the > "charset" is Unicode with something added in the private area) can > eliminate ambigiuty without involving ISO, Unicode consortium, etc. and > without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes. Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages. If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd know why (about five radically different charsets in common use) Besides, if the alphabet for information interchange doesn't deserve standarising, I don't know what does. Pat. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Patryk Zadarnowski University of New South Wales School of Computer Science and Engineering -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 19:53:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100B037B8DF for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA98766; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:22:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA85499; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:21:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004060221.UAA85499@harmony.village.org> To: Anatoly Vorobey Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:02:04 EDT." <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:21:26 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> Anatoly Vorobey writes: : a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently : supported by FreeBSD, but can be. Not supported by sc, but I believe the pcvt does support it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 20: 1:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17BB37B6A3 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15947; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:02:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:02:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Patryk Zadarnowski Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Jason , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <200004060101.LAA05805@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote: > > without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes. > > Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages. > If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd > know why (about five radically different charsets in common use) Besides, if > the alphabet for information interchange doesn't deserve standarising, I don't > know what does. Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was actually used in Russia? ISO 8859-5. And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups, for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages? koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more complex than some people think. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 20: 7:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (ha1.rdc1.nj.home.com [24.3.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A94D37BE41 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garycor@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.3.185.85]) by mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000406030705.QLVM25411.mail.rdc1.nj.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:07:05 -0700 Message-ID: <38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:07:57 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I installed FreeBSD 4.0 and I'm trying to write the attach() routine for my device driver, to be compiled as a loadable module. In 4.0 the attach routine only gets passed a dev pointer, not a PCI configuration pointer. My PCI device has up to 6 I/O ranges, and I need to get the base addresses for those ranges. So how does one get multiple I/O base addresses from a dev pointer for a PCI device in FreeBSD 4.x ? Thanks, Gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 22:18:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Draculina.otdel-1.org (Draculina.Otdel-1.ORG [195.230.65.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94ECB37BA16 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nms@otdel-1.org) Received: by Draculina.otdel-1.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id E01EEBC; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:18:24 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:18:24 +0400 From: Nikolai Saoukh To: Alex Belits Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000406091824.A1625@Draculina.otdel-1.org> References: <200004060101.LAA05805@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was > actually used in Russia? > > ISO 8859-5. > > And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups, > for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages? > > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb > terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of > trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more > complex than some people think. Wrong, you are comparing apples and oranges again -- cyrillic (8859-5) encoding with russian (koi8-r) one. Never say never -- if you do not know about 8859-5 usage is does not mean "not used by everyone". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 22:54:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BD037BAA7 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA99562; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:54:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA88923; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:54:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004060554.XAA88923@harmony.village.org> To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:07:57 EDT." <38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com> References: <38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:54:02 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes: : I installed FreeBSD 4.0 and I'm trying to write the attach() routine : for my device driver, to be compiled as a loadable module. In 4.0 : the attach routine only gets passed a dev pointer, not a PCI configuration : pointer. My PCI device has up to 6 I/O ranges, and I need to get the : base addresses for those ranges. : : So how does one get multiple I/O base addresses from a dev pointer : for a PCI device in FreeBSD 4.x ? rid = 0x10; res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); rid = 0x14; res2 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); rid = 0x18; res3 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); rid = 0x1c; res4 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); rid = 0x20; res5 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); rid = 0x24; res6 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); should do the trick. Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is I/O mapped rather than memory mapped. In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space where the BAR register that you want to use is. Multiples of 4 only need apply. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 23:15:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (kinata.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161B937BDAC for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22571; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:17:26 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:17:26 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000406081726.A22343@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <200004060101.LAA05805@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was > actually used in Russia? > > ISO 8859-5. It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000 (those of them not sophisticated enough to select their own outgoing encoding). > And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups, > for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages? Cyrillic!=Russian. > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep This is untrue. cp1251 is used in almost all Russian web pages, and koi8-r is the minority (for no good reason, of course, primarily because too many people never learned to set the right charset in the outgoing HTTP headers). > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb > terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of > trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more > complex than some people think. And with all its attractive properties, it's still missing the letter "yat'" that I need. It's there in Unicode, of course (and in 8859-5). -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 0:49:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.freibergnet.de (pegasus.freibergnet.de [194.123.255.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C2137BB6B for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from holm@pegasus.freibergnet.de) Received: (from holm@localhost) by pegasus.freibergnet.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA47553 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:49:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from holm) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:49:02 +0200 From: Holm Tiffe To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: lnc PCNet/PCI Ethernet working ? Message-ID: <20000406094902.A47465@pegasus.freibergnet.de> Reply-To: holm@freibergnet.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Organization: FreibergNet Internet Services X-Phone: +49-3731-781279 X-Fax: +49-3731-781377 X-PGP-fingerprint: 86 EC A5 63 B5 28 78 13 8B FC E9 09 04 6E 86 FC Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, since yesterday morning I'm trying to get the onboard Ethernet interface from my nootebook to work with 4.0-STABLE. It seems, this is an AMD Lance based chip, it probes as follows: lnc0: port 0x10e0-0x10ff \ mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0 lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims ... but neither the ether adress gets displayed nor is ifconfig working. # ifconfig lnc0 ifconfig: interface lnc0 does not exist What could I do to get this working ? Here comes the output from a verbose boot: Copyright (c) 1992-2000 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.0-20000404-STABLE #5: Thu Apr 6 07:39:18 CEST 2000 root@:/usr/src/sys/compile/SCHLEPPI2 Calibrating clock(s) ... TSC clock: 501130954 Hz, i8254 clock: 1193169 Hz CLK_USE_I8254_CALIBRATION not specified - using default frequency Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CLK_USE_TSC_CALIBRATION not specified - using old calibration method CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon (501.14-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x681 Stepping = 1 Features=0x383f9ff real memory = 134152192 (131008K bytes) Physical memory chunk(s): 0x00001000 - 0x0009efff, 647168 bytes (158 pages) 0x0030c000 - 0x07fe7fff, 130924544 bytes (31964 pages) avail memory = 127500288 (124512K bytes) bios32: Found BIOS32 Service Directory header at 0xc00f6a10 bios32: Entry = 0xfd8a0 (c00fd8a0) Rev = 0 Len = 1 pcibios: PCI BIOS entry at 0x11e pnpbios: Found PnP BIOS data at 0xc00f6a40 pnpbios: Entry = f0000:8e05 Rev = 1.0 Other BIOS signatures found: ACPI: 000f69d0 Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled md0: Malloc disk Creating DISK md0 pci_open(1): mode 1 addr port (0x0cf8) is 0x80003904 pci_open(1a): mode1res=0x80000000 (0x80000000) pci_cfgcheck: device 0 [class=060000] [hdr=00] is there (id=71908086) npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface apm0: on motherboard apm: found APM BIOS v1.2, connected at v1.2 pci_open(1): mode 1 addr port (0x0cf8) is 0x00000000 pci_open(1a): mode1res=0x80000000 (0x80000000) pci_cfgcheck: device 0 [class=060000] [hdr=00] is there (id=71908086) pcib0: on motherboard found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7190, revid=0x03 class=06-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 map[10]: type 1, range 32, base f8000000, size 26 found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7191, revid=0x03 class=06-04-00, hdrtype=0x01, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=1 secondarybus=1 found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7110, revid=0x02 class=06-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=1 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7111, revid=0x01 class=01-01-80, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 map[20]: type 1, range 32, base 00001050, size 4 found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7112, revid=0x01 class=0c-03-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 intpin=d, irq=11 map[20]: type 1, range 32, base 00001060, size 5 found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7113, revid=0x03 class=06-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 map[90]: type 1, range 32, base 00001040, size 4 found-> vendor=0x1073, dev=0x0010, revid=0x02 class=04-01-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 intpin=a, irq=5 map[10]: type 1, range 32, base fc000000, size 15 map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 00001080, size 6 map[18]: type 1, range 32, base 00001800, size 2 found-> vendor=0x1022, dev=0x2000, revid=0x43 class=02-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 intpin=a, irq=9 map[10]: type 1, range 32, base 000010e0, size 5 map[14]: type 1, range 32, base fc008000, size 5 found-> vendor=0x1180, dev=0x0475, revid=0x80 class=06-07-00, hdrtype=0x02, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 intpin=a, irq=255 found-> vendor=0x11c1, dev=0x0420, revid=0x01 class=07-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 intpin=a, irq=11 map[10]: type 1, range 32, base fc008400, size 8 map[14]: type 3, range 32, base 00001808, size 3 map[18]: type 1, range 32, base 00001400, size 8 pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4c42, revid=0xdc class=03-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 map[10]: type 1, range 32, base fd000000, size 24 map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 00002000, size 8 map[18]: type 1, range 32, base fc100000, size 12 pci1: on pcib1 pci1: (vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4c42) at 0.0 isab0: at device 7.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0x1050-0x105f at device 7.1 on pci0 ata0: iobase=0x01f0 altiobase=0x03f6 bmaddr=0x1050 ata0: mask=03 status0=50 status1=00 ata0: mask=03 status0=50 status1=00 ata0: devices = 0x1 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: iobase=0x0170 altiobase=0x0376 bmaddr=0x1058 ata1: mask=03 status0=00 status1=00 ata1: mask=03 status0=00 status1=00 ata1: devices = 0x4 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 uhci0: port 0x1060-0x107f irq 11 at device 7.2 on pci0 usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered chip1: port 0x1040-0x104f at device 7.3 on pci0 pci0: (vendor=0x1073, dev=0x0010) at 9.0 irq 5 lnc0: port 0x10e0-0x10ff mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0 lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims pcic-pci0: at device 12.0 on pci0 PCI Config space: 00: 04751180 02100007 06070080 00020000 10: 00000000 020000dc 00000000 00000000 20: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 30: 00000000 00000000 00000000 008001ff 40: 02801558 000003e1 00000000 00000000 50: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 60: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 70: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 80: 00a00000 00000000 04630463 00000000 90: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 Cardbus Socket registers: 00: f000ff53: f000ff53: f000e2c3: f000ff53: 10: f000ff53: f000ff54: f0009379: f000ff53: ExCa registers: 00: 13 88 f5 5a 72 d0 80 e1 3f 74 c8 fa 66 8b 46 08 10: 52 66 0f b6 d9 66 31 d2 66 f7 f3 88 eb 88 d5 43 20: 30 d2 66 f7 f3 88 d7 5a 66 3d ff 03 00 00 fb 77 30: a2 86 c4 c0 c8 02 08 e8 40 91 88 fe 28 e0 8a 66 pci0: (vendor=0x11c1, dev=0x0420) at 13.0 irq 11 Trying Read_Port at 203 Trying Read_Port at 243 Trying Read_Port at 283 Trying Read_Port at 2c3 Trying Read_Port at 303 Trying Read_Port at 343 Trying Read_Port at 383 Trying Read_Port at 3c3 devclass_alloc_unit: ata0 already exists, using next available unit number devclass_alloc_unit: ata1 already exists, using next available unit number isa_probe_children: disabling PnP devices isa_probe_children: probing non-PnP devices fdc0: at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 atkbd: the current kbd controller command byte 0047 atkbd: keyboard ID 0x41ab (2) kbdc: RESET_KBD return code:00fa kbdc: RESET_KBD status:00aa kbd0: atkbd0, AT 101/102 (2), config:0x0, flags:0x3d0000 psm0: current command byte:0047 kbdc: TEST_AUX_PORT status:0000 kbdc: RESET_AUX return code:00fa kbdc: RESET_AUX status:00aa kbdc: RESET_AUX ID:0000 psm: status 00 02 64 psm: status 00 00 64 psm: status 00 03 64 psm: status 00 03 64 psm: data 08 00 00 psm: status 53 02 14 psm: data 08 00 00 psm: status 00 02 64 psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: model GlidePoint, device ID 0-00, 2 buttons psm0: config:00000000, flags:00000000, packet size:3 psm0: syncmask:c0, syncbits:00 vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 fb0: vga0, vga, type:VGA (5), flags:0x7007f fb0: port:0x3c0-0x3df, crtc:0x3d4, mem:0xa0000 0x20000 fb0: init mode:24, bios mode:3, current mode:24 fb0: window:0xc00b8000 size:32k gran:32k, buf:0 size:32k vga0: vga: WARNING: video mode switching is not fully supported on this adapter VGA parameters upon power-up 50 18 10 00 00 00 03 00 02 e7 a3 4f 67 8f 6a 1b 24 b3 00 6f 0d 0e 00 00 02 d0 49 8f 8f 28 1f 47 6d a3 ff 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 38 39 3a 3b 3c 3d 3e 3f 0c 00 0f 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 0e 00 ff VGA parameters in BIOS for mode 24 50 18 10 00 10 00 03 00 02 67 5f 4f 50 82 55 81 bf 1f 00 4f 0d 0e 00 00 00 00 9c 8e 8f 28 1f 96 b9 a3 ff 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 38 39 3a 3b 3c 3d 3e 3f 0c 00 0f 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 0e 00 ff EGA/VGA parameters to be used for mode 24 50 18 10 00 00 00 03 00 02 e7 a3 4f 67 8f 6a 1b 24 b3 00 6f 0d 0e 00 00 02 d0 49 8f 8f 28 1f 47 6d a3 ff 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 38 39 3a 3b 3c 3d 3e 3f 0c 00 0f 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 0e 00 ff sc0: on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x200> sc0: fb0, kbd0, terminal emulator: sc (syscons terminal) pcic0 at port 0x3e0 iomem 0xd0000 irq 10 on isa0 pcic ident regs: 0x83 0xff 0xff 0xff pcic0: controller 0 (Intel 82365SL Revision 1) has socket A only pccard0: on pcic0 sio0: irq maps: 0x41 0x51 0x41 0x41 sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 16550A sio1: irq maps: 0x41 0x49 0x41 0x41 sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 sio1: type 16550A ppc0: parallel port found at 0x378 ppc0: EPP SPP ppc0: at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 flags 0x40 on isa0 ppc0: Generic chipset (EPP/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode ppi0: on ppbus0 lpt0: on ppbus0 lpt0: Interrupt-driven port plip0: on ppbus0 bpf: lp0 attached pcic1 at port 0x3e0-0x3e1 iomem 0xd0000-0xd0fff irq 10 on isa0 device_probe_and_attach: pcic1 attach returned 12 isa_probe_children: probing PnP devices BIOS Geometries: 0:03fefe3f 0..1022=1023 cylinders, 0..254=255 heads, 1..63=63 sectors 0 accounted for Device configuration finished. bpf: sl0 attached bpf: ppp0 attached new masks: bio 4008c840, tty 4003109a, net 4007149a bpf: lo0 attached ata0-master: success setting up UDMA2 mode on PIIX4 chip ad0: ATA-4 disk at ata0 as master ad0: 11513MB (23579136 sectors), 23392 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S ad0: 16 secs/int, 1 depth queue, UDMA33 ad0: piomode=4 dmamode=2 udmamode=4 cblid=1 Creating DISK ad0 Creating DISK wd0 ata1-master: piomode=4 dmamode=2 udmamode=2 dmaflag=1 ata1-master: success setting up UDMA2 mode on PIIX4 chip acd0: CDROM drive at ata1 as master acd0: read 4134KB/s (4134KB/s), 128KB buffer, UDMA33 acd0: Reads: CD-R, CD-RW, CD-DA stream acd0: Audio: play, 16 volume levels acd0: Mechanism: ejectable tray acd0: Medium: CD-ROM 80mm data disc loaded, unlocked Mounting root from ufs:ad0s1a ad0s1: type 0xa5, start 63, end = 11775644, size 11775582 : OK start_init: trying /sbin/init Linux-ELF exec handler installed splash: image decoder found: daemon_saver and here comes the kernel config file # # SCHLEPPI Newcard based machine i386 cpu I586_CPU cpu I686_CPU ident SCHLEPPI2 maxusers 32 #makeoptions DEBUG=-g #Build kernel with gdb(1) debug symbols options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options FFS_ROOT #FFS usable as root device [keep this!] options MFS #Memory Filesystem options MD_ROOT #MD is a potential root device options NFS #Network Filesystem options NFS_ROOT #NFS usable as root device, NFS required options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem options CD9660 #ISO 9660 Filesystem options CD9660_ROOT #CD-ROM usable as root, CD9660 required options PROCFS #Process filesystem options COMPAT_43 #Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THIS!] options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor options KTRACE #ktrace(1) support options SYSVSHM #SYSV-style shared memory options SYSVMSG #SYSV-style message queues options SYSVSEM #SYSV-style semaphores options COMPAT_OLDPCI device isa device pci device pccard #device cardbus # Floppy drives device fdc0 at isa? port IO_FD1 irq 6 drq 2 device fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 #device fd1 at fdc0 drive 1 # ATA and ATAPI devices device ata0 at isa? port IO_WD1 irq 14 device ata1 at isa? port IO_WD2 irq 15 device ata device atadisk # ATA disk drives device atapicd # ATAPI CDROM drives device atapifd # ATAPI floppy drives device atapist # ATAPI tape drives options ATA_STATIC_ID #Static device numbering options ATA_ENABLE_ATAPI_DMA #Enable DMA on ATAPI devices # atkbdc0 controls both the keyboard and the PS/2 mouse device atkbdc0 at isa? port IO_KBD device atkbd0 at atkbdc? irq 1 device psm0 at atkbdc? irq 12 device vga0 at isa? port ? # splash screen/screen saver pseudo-device splash # syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console device sc0 at isa? # Enable this and PCVT_FREEBSD for pcvt vt220 compatible console driver #device vt0 at isa? #options XSERVER # support for X server on a vt console #options FAT_CURSOR # start with block cursor # If you have a ThinkPAD, uncomment this along with the rest of the PCVT lines #options PCVT_SCANSET=2 # IBM keyboards are non-std # Floating point support - do not disable. device npx0 at nexus? port IO_NPX irq 13 # Power management support (see LINT for more options) device apm0 at nexus? flags 0x20 # Advanced Power Management # PCCARD (PCMCIA) support device pcic0 at isa? port 0x3e0 irq 10 iomem 0xd0000 device pccbb # Serial (COM) ports device sio0 at isa? port IO_COM1 flags 0x10 irq 4 device sio1 at isa? port IO_COM2 irq 3 # Parallel port device ppc0 at isa? port? flags 0x40 irq 7 device ppbus # Parallel port bus (required) device lpt # Printer device plip # TCP/IP over parallel device ppi # Parallel port interface device #device vpo # Requires scbus and da0 # ISA Ethernet NICs. # The probe order of these is presently determined by i386/isa/isa_compat.c. #device ie0 at isa? port 0x300 irq 10 iomem 0xd0000 #device fe0 at isa? port 0x300 irq ? #device le0 at isa? port 0x300 irq 5 iomem 0xd0000 #device lnc0 at isa? port 0x1a0a irq 9 drq 0 #device cs0 at isa? port 0x300 irq ? #device sn0 at isa? port 0x300 irq 10 # requires PCCARD (PCMCIA) support to be activated # XXX BROKEN #device xe0 at isa? port? irq ? device lnc0 # Pseudo devices - the number indicates how many units to allocated. pseudo-device loop # Network loopback pseudo-device ether # Ethernet support pseudo-device sl 1 # Kernel SLIP pseudo-device ppp 1 # Kernel PPP pseudo-device tun # Packet tunnel. pseudo-device pty # Pseudo-ttys (telnet etc) pseudo-device md # Memory "disks" # The `bpf' pseudo-device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter. # Be aware of the administrative consequences of enabling this! pseudo-device bpf 4 #Berkeley packet filter pseudo-device vn 4 # USB support device uhci # UHCI PCI->USB interface device ohci # OHCI PCI->USB interface device usb # USB Bus (required) device ugen # Generic device uhid # "Human Interface Devices" device ukbd # Keyboard device ulpt # Printer #device umass # Disks/Mass storage - Requires scbus and da0 device ums # Mouse #device aue # ADMtek USB ethernet #device cue # CATC USB ethernet #device kue # Kawasaki LSI USB ethernet options DDB Holm -- FreibergNet Systemhaus GbR Holm Tiffe * Administration, Development Systemhaus für Daten- und Netzwerktechnik phone +49 3731 781279 Unternehmensgruppe Liebscher & Partner fax +49 3731 781377 D-09599 Freiberg * Am St. Niclas Schacht 13 http://www.freibergnet.de/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 1: 2:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C21E37C020 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16477; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:04:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:04:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Nikolai Saoukh Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000406091824.A1625@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Nikolai Saoukh wrote: > > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep > > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through > > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb > > terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of > > trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more > > complex than some people think. > > Wrong, you are comparing apples and oranges again -- > cyrillic (8859-5) encoding with russian (koi8-r) one. > Never say never -- if you do not know about 8859-5 > usage is does not mean "not used by everyone". I am absolutely certain that my knowledge of the cyrillic encodings usage and history that I have got in fourteen years of dealing with them is complete. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 1:31:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E74F37B626 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16548; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:32:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:32:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000406081726.A22343@happy.checkpoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was > > actually used in Russia? > > > > ISO 8859-5. > > It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000 > (those of them not sophisticated enough to select their own outgoing > encoding). Unless Microsoft turned around its encodings policy one more time last year, Outlook by default uses Windows CP-1251 for cyrillic. > > > And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups, > > for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages? > > Cyrillic!=Russian. The same applies to the use of encodings for Ukrainian language except that koi8-u (that us a superset of koi8-r) is used instead. Other languages either aren't used widely enough to provide any statistics (such as Belorussian), or use one of existing charsets other than iso8859-5. > > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep > > This is untrue. cp1251 is used in almost all Russian web pages, and > koi8-r is the minority (for no good reason, of course, primarily because > too many people never learned to set the right charset in the outgoing > HTTP headers). While the number of russian pages in CP-1251 is increasing, I probably look at the "wrong" web sites because absolute majority of what I have seen either uses koi8-r, or offers multiple encodings, including koi8-r and CP-1251 but never iso 8859-5. > > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through > > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb > > terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of > > trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more > > complex than some people think. > > And with all its attractive properties, it's still missing the letter > "yat'" that I need. It's there in Unicode, of course (and in 8859-5). With multiple-charsets support it's still can be available, however this is not the point. The reality is that this letter is completely excluded from any real-life use for more than 70 years. That is, everything published in modern Russian, even if it is a re-published work that originally used pre-reform Russian language, is printed in post-reform version of the language, works of Pushkin and Tolstoy included. The only cases where "yat'" is used are ones where exact reproduction of works in documents is necessary, and generally are treated by Russians as texts in languages that is not recognized as Russian anymore (as well as even earlier version of Russian that had significantly different alphabet and can't be read by modern Russians without archaic-language training). In other words, you are talking about completely different language. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 2:20: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8504C37BB75; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@09-027.006.popsite.net [216.126.136.27]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26454; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id CAA00923; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:08:33 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Subject: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from ftp.internat.freebsd.org? -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 2:41:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D14437BB19 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:41:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA64134 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:57:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:57:25 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Task for -doc newbie / XML'ing LINT. . . Message-ID: <20000406095725.D62492@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, [ sent to -doc, where it's on topic. Sent to -stable, where there's been much discussion of the docs recently. If anyone's got any energy left from that they could usefully expend it on this. Sent to -hackers, where the last chunk about XML is on topic, and will probably get me lynched. . . Follow-ups *not* set, as depending on which bits you reply to might make it more appropriate for one list or another. ] If anyone's looking for a relatively simple, but quite involving task. . . Update section 2.3 of the Handbook, "Supported Hardware". In particular, for each piece of hardware I'd like to know * The name of the hardware (which we already have, pretty much) * The category ("Disk Controller", "NIC", "USB", "ISDN", "Serial", "Mice", "Scanners", Other. . .) * The name of the driver/kernel config entry it's associated with * A URL for a page on the manufacturer's website that describes the product (if it exists). * Other URLs of interest (for example, if someone else has a page up that explains how to use this device with FreeBSD). * Assorted notes about the product What would be particularly useful is if we can get this information in a queryable form (XML, rah rah rah). We could then * Convert it to DocBook for inclusion in the Handbook * Build something much like the BSDI's website "Supported Hardware" section, where you can search for your hardware, and it gives you back lots of info about the device. [ OK, I'm pushing the boat out big time on this one, and it'll probably get shot down, but what the hell ] * Use this as *documentation in the source tree* to build chunks of the LINT config file. Imagine, for example, src/sys/pci/DRIVERS.xml, which looked something like (and I'm doodling on the back of an envelope at the moment) pci NIC fxp EtherExpress Pro/10, Pro/100B, Pro/100+ Fast Ethernet adapters, based on the Intel i82557 or i82559 chipsets. [ ... ] LINT would then become some boiler plate text for things we don't want to describe this way, plus the output of a process which takes the above and turns it into a config(8) style file. When you add a new driver, update the .xml file(s) as necessary. Next time LINT is built it contains the appropriate text, next time the Handbook is built it lists the device as supported. . . Thoughts? N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 3: 3:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from brunel.uk1.vbc.net (brunel.uk1.vbc.net [194.207.2.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD88437B9C7; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 03:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lloyd@brunel.uk1.vbc.net) Received: from localhost (lloyd@localhost) by brunel.uk1.vbc.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA59816; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:03:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:03:19 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Rennie To: "David O'Brien" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? We expect to have a mirror service setup with the next two months or so - if noone else has helped with this by then, we'd be happy to. -- Lloyd Rennie VBCnet GB Ltd lloyd@vbc.net tel +44 (0) 117 929 1316 http://www.vbc.net fax +44 (0) 117 927 2015 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 4:57: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (wandering-wizard.cybercity.dk [212.242.43.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C950237BC2A; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 04:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00793; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:39:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:08:33 PDT." <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:39:03 +0200 Message-ID: <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: >Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from >ftp.internat.freebsd.org? I may be able to arrange a server here in Denmark with a 10-20 Mbit upstream. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 5:16:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freesbee.wheel.dk (freesbee.wheel.dk [193.162.159.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09EC37B98C; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 05:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesper@skriver.dk) Received: by freesbee.wheel.dk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7E7873E43; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:16:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:16:15 +0200 From: Jesper Skriver To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000406141615.H80268@skriver.dk> References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk>; from phk@critter.freebsd.dk on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:39:03AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:39:03AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: > > >Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org? > > I may be able to arrange a server here in Denmark with a 10-20 Mbit > upstream. If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org ... /Jesper -- Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456 Work: Network manager @ AS3292 (Tele Danmark DataNetworks) Private: Geek @ AS2109 (A much smaller network ;-) One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 6: 0:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CE937B7E0; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from diskiller@borg-cube.com) Received: from bender (adlax2-058.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.52.58]) by mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA31105; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:36:35 +1000 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:06:49 +0930 (CST) From: Martin Minkus X-Sender: diskiller@bender.on.diskiller.net To: hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org Subject: calcru: negative time Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm sure this is already known, but on FreeBSD 4.0 and 5.0, i keep getting the follow error ... calcru: negative time of xxxxxxxxxx usec for pid yyyyy (dnetc) Where xxxx is a large number, sometimes negative, sometimes not, and yyyy is the PID of dnetc. dnetc is the Distributed.net rc5 client of course. martin. -- Martin Minkus aka DiSKiLLeR Email: diskiller@borg-cube.com Web: http://www.diskiller.net I live in a world of paradox... my willingness to destroy is your chance for improvement, my hate is your faith, my failure is your victory - a victory that won't last. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 6: 8:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rccr1.rccr.cremona.it (rccr1.rccr.cremona.it [194.20.53.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E351D37BDC2 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it) Received: from mailman.endymion.com (rccr1.rccr.cremona.it [194.20.53.49] (may be forged)) by rccr1.rccr.cremona.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA04614 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:03:43 +0200 Message-Id: <200004061303.PAA04614@rccr1.rccr.cremona.it> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org From: mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it Subject: gdb 4.18 strangeness... Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:03:43 +0000 X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Standard Edition v3.0.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ciao! I have problems debugging ObjC programs... it seems that gdb has problems stepping through the objc function. See: rey:~/Sources/gnustep/core/base/Testing> gdb shared_obj/ix86/freebsdelf3.4/gnu-gnu-gnu-xgps/invocation GNU gdb 4.18 Copyright 1998 Free Software Foundation, Inc. GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. Type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. This GDB was configured as "i386-unknown-freebsd"... (gdb) b gnustep_base_user_main Breakpoint 1 at 0x8049dd3: file invocation.m, line 34. (gdb) r Starting program: /usr/home/mirko/Sources/gnustep/core/base/Testing/shared_obj/ix86/freebsdelf3.4/gnu-gnu-gnu-xgps/invocation Breakpoint 1, gnustep_base_user_main () at invocation.m:34 34 NSAutoreleasePool *arp = [NSAutoreleasePool new]; Current language: auto; currently objective-c (gdb) l 29 id obj; 30 id inv; 31 id array; 32 int i; 33 BOOL b; 34 NSAutoreleasePool *arp = [NSAutoreleasePool new]; 35 36 /* Create a simple invocation, and get it's return value. */ 37 obj = [NSObject new]; 38 inv = [[MethodInvocation alloc] (gdb) n 0x8049848 in _init () (gdb) l 39 initWithTarget: obj selector: @selector(isInstance)]; 40 [inv invoke]; 41 [inv getReturnValue: &b]; 42 printf ("object is instance %d\n", (int)b); 43 [inv release]; 44 45 /* Do a simple invocation on all the contents of a collection. */ 46 array = [Array new]; 47 for (i = 0; i < 5; i++) 48 [array addObject: [NSNumber numberWithInt: i]]; (gdb) n Single stepping until exit from function _init, which has no line number information. Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x8053196 in objc_msg_lookup () (gdb) This happens with the system gdb 4.18 and the patched (with ObjC support) version. Any hints ? Thanks. -- Bye, Mirko (NeXTmail, MIME) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 7:19:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from euromail1.genrad.com (x83.genrad.co.uk [195.99.3.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626CA37BF8D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:19:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swindellsr@genrad.co.uk) Received: from CDP437 (cdp437.uk.genrad.com [132.223.131.31]) by euromail1.genrad.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id H9RQSRFB; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:19:35 +0100 From: Robert Swindells To: holm@freibergnet.de Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000406094902.A47465@pegasus.freibergnet.de> (message from Holm Tiffe on Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:49:02 +0200) Subject: Re: lnc PCNet/PCI Ethernet working ? Reply-To: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <20000406141938.626CA37BF8D@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >since yesterday morning I'm trying to get the onboard Ethernet interface >from my nootebook to work with 4.0-STABLE. >It seems, this is an AMD Lance based chip, it probes as follows: >lnc0: port 0x10e0-0x10ff \ > mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0 >lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims > >... but neither the ether adress gets displayed nor is ifconfig working. Try uncommenting the line in your config file for the isa lnc0 driver and delete the line that reads "device lnc0". The PCI device should then probe as lnc1. Robert Swindells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 7:56:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.freibergnet.de (pegasus.freibergnet.de [194.123.255.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EFA37C020 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from holm@pegasus.freibergnet.de) Received: (from holm@localhost) by pegasus.freibergnet.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA49333; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:55:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from holm) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:55:55 +0200 From: Holm Tiffe To: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lnc PCNet/PCI Ethernet working ? Message-ID: <20000406165555.A49296@pegasus.freibergnet.de> Reply-To: holm@freibergnet.de References: <20000406094902.A47465@pegasus.freibergnet.de> <200004061418.QAA12691@sol.freibergnet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <200004061418.QAA12691@sol.freibergnet.de>; from Robert Swindells on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:18:04PM +0200 Organization: FreibergNet Internet Services X-Phone: +49-3731-781279 X-Fax: +49-3731-781377 X-PGP-fingerprint: 86 EC A5 63 B5 28 78 13 8B FC E9 09 04 6E 86 FC Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Swindells wrote: > > >since yesterday morning I'm trying to get the onboard Ethernet interface > >from my nootebook to work with 4.0-STABLE. > > >It seems, this is an AMD Lance based chip, it probes as follows: > > >lnc0: port 0x10e0-0x10ff \ > > mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0 > >lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims > > > >... but neither the ether adress gets displayed nor is ifconfig working. > > Try uncommenting the line in your config file for the isa lnc0 driver and > delete the line that reads "device lnc0". > > The PCI device should then probe as lnc1. I've done that, but it doesn't make any difference. The lnc0 is the only device that gets probed and ifconfig -a lists only serial an parallel network devices. Holm -- FreibergNet Systemhaus GbR Holm Tiffe * Administration, Development Systemhaus für Daten- und Netzwerktechnik phone +49 3731 781279 Unternehmensgruppe Liebscher & Partner fax +49 3731 781377 D-09599 Freiberg * Am St. Niclas Schacht 13 http://www.freibergnet.de/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:13:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from polaris.we.lc.ehu.es (polaris.we.lc.ehu.es [158.227.6.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2594C37C069; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jose@we.lc.ehu.es) Received: from we.lc.ehu.es (v-ger [158.227.6.179]) by polaris.we.lc.ehu.es (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA19885; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:11:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38ECA91E.F98AE48@we.lc.ehu.es> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:11:26 +0200 From: "Jose M. Alcaide" Organization: Universidad del Pais Vasco - Dpto. de Electricidad y Electronica X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, es, en-US, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Cc: freebsd-mobile@FreeBSD.org Subject: proposal of a better solution for "statclock broken" laptops Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Let's begin exposing the background: Some laptops suffer of the "statclock broken" problem: APM suspend does not work while the RTC is generating periodic interrupts (which are used for the statistical clock). Currently, the "solution" consists of setting the 0x20 flag for the apm(4) driver. If this flag is set, the cpu_initclocks() routine in sys/i386/isa/clock.c does not initialize the statclok at all. As a consequence, the functionality of the statclock is lost. I tried another solution which seems to work for my laptop (a Dell I3.7k). I added two small routines to clock.c, named statclock_stop() and statclock_restart(). The first one simply disables the periodic interrupts from the MC146818A RTC; the second one re-enables those interrupts. Then, I modified apm_default_suspend() and apm_default_resume() (in sys/i386/apm/apm.c) for respectively stopping and restarting the statclock if the 0x20 flag is set. With these small modifications, now I can suspend and resume my laptop while retaining the statclock functionality. I attach a patchfile (against 4.0-RELEASE) to this message. It's possible that my solution needs to be reworked in order to make it SMP-safe or something. I would love to hear any comments. Saludos, -- JMA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- José Mª Alcaide | mailto:jose@we.lc.ehu.es Universidad del País Vasco | mailto:jmas@FreeBSD.org Dpto. de Electricidad y Electrónica | http://www.we.lc.ehu.es/~jose Facultad de Ciencias - Campus de Lejona | Tel.: +34-946012479 48940 Lejona (Vizcaya) - SPAIN | Fax: +34-946013071 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers" -- Leonard Brandwein --------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="statclock.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="statclock.patch" --- sys/i386/isa/clock.c.orig Tue Jan 4 23:24:59 2000 +++ sys/i386/isa/clock.c Thu Apr 6 17:05:26 2000 @@ -132,7 +132,6 @@ int clkintr_pending; int disable_rtc_set; /* disable resettodr() if != 0 */ volatile u_int idelayed; -int statclock_disable; u_int stat_imask = SWI_CLOCK_MASK; #ifndef TIMER_FREQ #define TIMER_FREQ 1193182 @@ -827,6 +826,28 @@ #endif /* !defined(SMP) */ } +/* The following two functions are used in apm.c for stopping and + * restarting the statclock interrupts from the RTC, if the apm's + * broken_statclock flag is active (some laptops don't enter suspend + * mode while the RTC is generating interrupts) */ + +void +statclock_stop(void) +{ + /* disable RTC interrupts and clear any pending one */ + writertc(RTC_STATUSB, RTCSB_24HR); + rtcin(RTC_INTR); +} + +void +statclock_restart(void) +{ + /* don't trust the APM BIOS (paranoia?) */ + rtcin(RTC_INTR); + /* re-enable periodic interrupts */ + writertc(RTC_STATUSB, rtc_statusb); +} + /* * Initialize the time of day register, based on the time base which is, e.g. * from a filesystem. @@ -975,20 +996,9 @@ struct intrec *clkdesc; #endif /* APIC_IO */ - if (statclock_disable) { - /* - * The stat interrupt mask is different without the - * statistics clock. Also, don't set the interrupt - * flag which would normally cause the RTC to generate - * interrupts. - */ - stat_imask = HWI_MASK | SWI_MASK; - rtc_statusb = RTCSB_24HR; - } else { - /* Setting stathz to nonzero early helps avoid races. */ - stathz = RTC_NOPROFRATE; - profhz = RTC_PROFRATE; - } + /* Setting stathz to nonzero early helps avoid races. */ + stathz = RTC_NOPROFRATE; + profhz = RTC_PROFRATE; /* Finish initializing 8253 timer 0. */ #ifdef APIC_IO @@ -1023,9 +1033,6 @@ writertc(RTC_STATUSA, rtc_statusa); writertc(RTC_STATUSB, RTCSB_24HR); - /* Don't bother enabling the statistics clock. */ - if (statclock_disable) - return; diag = rtcin(RTC_DIAG); if (diag != 0) printf("RTC BIOS diagnostic error %b\n", diag, RTCDG_BITS); --- sys/i386/include/clock.h.orig Wed Dec 29 05:32:58 1999 +++ sys/i386/include/clock.h Thu Apr 6 17:00:42 2000 @@ -16,7 +16,6 @@ */ extern int adjkerntz; extern int disable_rtc_set; -extern int statclock_disable; extern u_int timer_freq; extern int timer0_max_count; extern u_int tsc_freq; @@ -45,6 +44,8 @@ #endif int sysbeep __P((int pitch, int period)); void i8254_restore __P((void)); +void statclock_stop __P((void)); +void statclock_restart __P((void)); #endif /* _KERNEL */ --- sys/i386/apm/apm.c.orig Sun Feb 6 15:57:05 2000 +++ sys/i386/apm/apm.c Thu Apr 6 17:01:58 2000 @@ -56,6 +56,8 @@ static u_long apm_version; +static int broken_statclock = 0; + int apm_evindex; #define SCFLAG_ONORMAL 0x0000001 @@ -402,6 +404,10 @@ u_int second, minute, hour; struct timeval resume_time, tmp_time; + /* re-enable statclock if it's broken */ + if (broken_statclock) + statclock_restart(); + /* modified for adjkerntz */ pl = splsoftclock(); i8254_restore(); /* restore timer_freq and hz */ @@ -451,6 +457,11 @@ microtime(&suspend_time); timevalsub(&diff_time, &suspend_time); splx(pl); + + /* stop statclock if it's broken */ + if (broken_statclock) + statclock_stop(); + return 0; } @@ -1003,7 +1014,7 @@ flags = 0; if (flags & 0x20) - statclock_disable = 1; + broken_statclock = 1; sc->initialized = 0; --------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:15:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rccr1.rccr.cremona.it (rccr1.rccr.cremona.it [194.20.53.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93F37B973; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it) Received: from mailman.endymion.com (rccr1.rccr.cremona.it [194.20.53.49] (may be forged)) by rccr1.rccr.cremona.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10378; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:10:44 +0200 Message-Id: <200004061510.RAA10378@rccr1.rccr.cremona.it> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.org From: mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it Subject: GCC 2.95.2 __builtin_apply() problems... Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:10:45 +0000 X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Standard Edition v3.0.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ciao! This prg seems to have problems with gcc 2.95.2 under FreeBSD. Here (3.4-stable, egcs from ports) it returns: rey:/tmp/tmp> ./conftest 00 00 00 00 30 56 0d 28 00 00 00 00 00 5e 3a c8 07 40 bf bf 97 bc 04 28 7d 82 04 08 04 cf 8a 06 b4 8f 05 28 40 d0 bf bf 5e 3a c8 43 It should return the 'value' at 'retframe+8' instead of 0. The value is a bit shifted 'retvalue+13' and latest byte missed. If you change the value type from 'float' to 'long double' it works correctly. Any hints ? Thanks. <-*- cut -*-> #include float value = 400.456; float floatValue() { return value; } void main() { int i; char *(imp) = floatValue; void* retframe; void* frame = __builtin_apply_args(); //malloc(116); retframe = __builtin_apply((void(*)(void))imp, frame, 0); for(i=0; i < 40; i++) printf("%02x ", ((unsigned char *)retframe)[i]); printf("\n"); for(i=0; i < 4; i++) printf("%02x ", ((unsigned char *)&value)[i]); printf("\n"); exit(0); } <-*- cut -*-> -- Bye, Mirko (NeXTmail, MIME) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:24:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from eastwood.aldigital.algroup.co.uk (eastwood.aldigital.algroup.co.uk [194.128.162.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5DE37C024; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@algroup.co.uk) Received: from algroup.co.uk ([193.195.56.225]) by eastwood.aldigital.algroup.co.uk (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA19924; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:22:53 GMT Message-ID: <38ECABCC.30ED2879@algroup.co.uk> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:22:52 +0100 From: Adam Laurie Organization: A.L. Group plc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? Tell me the exact tree you want mirrored and I'll make put it on: ftp://opensores.thebunker.net/ and http://opensores.thebunker.net/ cheers, Adam -- Adam Laurie Tel: +44 (181) 742 0755 A.L. Digital Ltd. Fax: +44 (181) 742 5995 Voysey House Barley Mow Passage http://www.aldigital.co.uk London W4 4GB mailto:adam@algroup.co.uk UNITED KINGDOM PGP key on keyservers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:41:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4754837C153 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for hackers@freebsd.org id 12dEPD-000KjV-00; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:41:15 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA30067 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:41:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:41:15 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I saw this link recently... http://home.zonnet.nl/vanrein/badram/ Apparently, you make a floppy with the supplied image, boot with it to find the bad RAM addresses, and then those addresses are passed on as a kernel parameter once the patch is applied. Bad addresses will be excluded from addressable/virtual memory from then on. Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh? jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft: "Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side. Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242 ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 9: 2:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peace.mahoroba.org (peace.calm.imasy.or.jp [202.227.26.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA5637BCEB; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:Zb1ghnyWFMEVDnBfQmd+vr4CqtYdQS5R8zSMEN/5VT8CKA0wkgQFYQZJPTy9z9KX@localhost [::1]) by peace.mahoroba.org (8.10.0/3.7W-peace) with ESMTP id e36Fxs539303; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:59:54 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:59:54 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200004061559.e36Fxs539303@peace.mahoroba.org> To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Cc: ume@mahoroba.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.94.2 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjJWMWMbKEIp?= X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Hajimu UMEMOTO (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCR19LXBsoQiA=?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCSCUbKEI=?=) X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 14 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:08:33 -0700 >>>>> "David O'Brien" said: obrien> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably obrien> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP obrien> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from obrien> ftp.internat.freebsd.org? daemon.jp.freebsd.org has. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 9:52:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB7137B524 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:52:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by david.siemens.de (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e36GqgZ11623 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:52:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e36GqfC03237 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:52:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA71243 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:52:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:52:40 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: "David O'Brien" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000406185240.A24261@internal> References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 06:08:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 05-Apr-2000 at 18:08:33 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? Try ftp://ftp.uni-trier.de/pub/unix/systems/BSD/FreeBSD/development/CTM-international -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 9:53:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc2.pa.home.com (ha1.rdc2.pa.home.com [24.12.106.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAAB37B881; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc2.pa.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000406165319.WXYY24433.mail.rdc2.pa.home.com@cx443070a>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:53:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000701bf9fea$00507620$0100000a@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: , )> Cc: , , References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004061559.e36Fxs539303@peace.mahoroba.org> Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:03:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP heh lol. I wouldn't think it could be that serious. :) Shall we lead a holy Jihad against it ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:12:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pinhead.parag.codegen.com (207-44-235-154.CodeGen.COM [207.44.235.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE2B37B881; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com) Received: from pinhead.parag.codegen.com (localhost.parag.codegen.com [127.0.0.1]) by pinhead.parag.codegen.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17566; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com) To: Martin Minkus Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: calcru: negative time In-Reply-To: Message from Martin Minkus of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:06:49 +0930." X-Image-URL: http://www.codegen.com/images/CG-logo-only.gif X-URL: http://www.codegen.com X-Face: =O'Kj74icvU|oS*<7gS/8'\Pbpm}okVj*@UC!IgkmZQAO!W[|iBiMs*|)n*`X ]pW%m>Oz_mK^Gdazsr.Z0/JsFS1uF8gBVIoChGwOy{EK=<6g?aHE`[\S]C]T0Wm Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:12:22 -0700 Message-ID: <17557.955041142@pinhead.parag.codegen.com> From: Parag Patel Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:06:49 +0930, Martin Minkus wrote: > >calcru: negative time of xxxxxxxxxx usec for pid yyyyy (dnetc) I've been seeing the same problem sporadically on my 2xPII box that I upgraded from 3.4 to 4.0. It *only* occurs for the setiathome binary, and it *seems* to be triggered when the X server is restarted after logout/login via xdm. I went through the suggestions in the troubleshooting section of the FAQ, namely trying kern.timecounter.method=1 and such. Curiously, it made no difference. Even more curiously, the same machine used to work just fine under 3.4 without this mod (timecounter hardware is PIIX). I had recently shuffled the audio card around in my system to try to figure out an unrelated problem with why audio recording isn't working. Turns out that the current slot the PCI sound card is now sitting in appears to be sharing an IRQ with the video card. I need to take the machine down and move the card out of this slot to see if the calcru errors continue or not, since it does appear to be interrupt related. I just haven't had the time to take my box down to try this yet, and so wasn't going to post a note 'till I'd figured it out. Hopefully you have a bit more free time to experiment. -- Parag Patel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:17:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4815D37BEEC for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16329; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:13:25 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: J McKitrick Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:41:15PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:41:15PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote: > I saw this link recently... > > http://home.zonnet.nl/vanrein/badram/ > > Apparently, you make a floppy with the supplied image, boot with it to > find the bad RAM addresses, and then those addresses are passed on as a > kernel parameter once the patch is applied. Bad addresses will be excluded > from addressable/virtual memory from then on. > > Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh? Not really. If you run it and it says the RAM is bad you know it's bad. If you run it and it says the RAM is good, then you whine and batch and moan for weeks, if not months, that FreeBSD is busted and your machine is perfectly functional until you finaly replace the RAM and the problem goes away. This is not what we want to see. The problem is that testing can't prove correctness because it can't try EVERY possiable access combination. -- Brooks P.S. The "you" in the above doens't refer to the poster, it refers to the poor sucker with a problem who tries to use this so called tool. -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:39:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5787A37B83C for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA254264; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:38:51 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:38:51 -0400 To: Anatoly Vorobey , Marco van de Voort From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:30 PM -0400 4/5/00, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >Marco van de Voort, wrote on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100: > > > > I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts > > that of UNICODE support are we thinking of? > >I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the >vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes: [...assorted good things happen...] >I am willing to do this work, have a good understanding of >the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a >member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea, >my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to >do a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This >is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide >Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be >welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue >and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria, >they will be reviewed and committed. I am not a core member, and I can't guarantee what reaction you will get after making such changes. However, I can say that I think the changes would be a good thing, and that if you had the changes made then I think there are several people who would be happy to campaign for their inclusion. (Mind you, the actual implementation might have to change a little as part of that campaign, but there are people who would be interested in seeing this). I doubt anyone would guarantee that your changes would be accepted, but I also doubt that anyone on the core would guarantee to REJECT them just because some people have straw-man problems with unicode. By all means, please see what you can do. It is much easier to debate a specific set of changes than to get into philosophical discussions about the metaphysical desirability of all possible [and not-implemented] solutions to some wider issue. Coordinate your changes with whoever generally works on the console or keyboard support, just so you're not working on a major set of changes at the same time they're working on some unrelated major set of changes. Ignore the raging philosophical debate for now. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:40: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9705D37BBD4; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21032; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:39:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38ECCBED.F5409DF3@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:39:57 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? For a mere $100,000 per year I could anchor a boat 3 miles outside the golden gate and get a wireless T-1 service. Anybody got some change? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 11: 2: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1372A37BF56 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12dGbM-000Pcn-00; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:01:56 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30830; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:01:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:01:56 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: Brooks Davis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000406190156.B30755@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:13:25AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:13:25AM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:41:15PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote: > > I saw this link recently... > > > > http://home.zonnet.nl/vanrein/badram/ > > > > Apparently, you make a floppy with the supplied image, boot with it to > > find the bad RAM addresses, and then those addresses are passed on as a > > kernel parameter once the patch is applied. Bad addresses will be excluded > > from addressable/virtual memory from then on. > > > > Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh? > > Not really. If you run it and it says the RAM is bad you know it's bad. > If you run it and it says the RAM is good, then you whine and batch and > moan for weeks, if not months, that FreeBSD is busted and your machine > is perfectly functional until you finaly replace the RAM and the problem > goes away. This is not what we want to see. The problem is that > testing can't prove correctness because it can't try EVERY possiable > access combination. I think the concept here is that it allows you to use the bad RAM. It's like bad blocks on a hard drive. SO now, if you think you have bad RAM, you can run the test, mark the bad blocks, and memory will be allocated 'around' them. > P.S. The "you" in the above doens't refer to the poster, it refers to > the poor sucker with a problem who tries to use this so called tool. jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft: "Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side. Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242 ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 11:23:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DDF37C0C5 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:23:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23313; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:19:19 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: J McKitrick Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000406111919.A22381@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu> <20000406190156.B30755@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <20000406190156.B30755@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:01:56PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:01:56PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote: > I think the concept here is that it allows you to use the bad RAM. It's > like bad blocks on a hard drive. SO now, if you think you have bad RAM, you > can run the test, mark the bad blocks, and memory will be allocated 'around' > them. That would be fine if it were possiable to write a test which found all bad RAM, but you can't do that. I don't think this is the sort of thing we want anywhere near the project. It's just not possiable to make this sort of thing reliable. It's rather poor solution to the problem. The right solution is to buy RAM from a vendor with lifetime free replacement. It might cost a bit more, but you don't have to deal with unreliable hacks like this. It all comes back to the problem that if you test a complex system, you can prove it's bad but you can't prove it's good. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 11:24: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from studict.student.utwente.nl (studict.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08C637C0C5 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.vanklaveren@student.utwente.nl) Received: from fire (cal30b054.student.utwente.nl [130.89.229.25]) by studict.student.utwente.nl (8.8.6/MQT) with SMTP id UAA20356 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:23:50 +0200 (METDST) Message-ID: <004201bf9ff5$3c8646a0$0219e50a@phoenix> From: "Theo van Klaveren" To: References: Subject: Re: calcru: negative time Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:23:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm seeing the same thing on my (headless) server/natd box, only it happens with syslogd. TOP reports the processor time consumed by it so far as being '???', and the 'calcru' message appears about 30x daily in the syslog. > I'm sure this is already known, but on FreeBSD 4.0 and 5.0, i keep getting > the follow error ... > > calcru: negative time of xxxxxxxxxx usec for pid yyyyy (dnetc) > > Where xxxx is a large number, sometimes negative, sometimes not, and yyyy > is the PID of dnetc. > > dnetc is the Distributed.net rc5 client of course. > > martin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12: 6: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74C137B9E0; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29168; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA86952; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:05:48 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Jesper Skriver Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000406120548.B81460@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk> <20000406141615.H80268@skriver.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000406141615.H80268@skriver.dk>; from jesper@skriver.dk on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200, Jesper Skriver wrote: > > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org? > > If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org I have no idea how big the collection is -- I could just finally login, but an ``ls'' timed out. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:23:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBCE37B995; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA76302; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:23:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "David O'Brien" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:30:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579C337B5F8; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29327; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA20023; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:30:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:30:04 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, security@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000406123004.A13677@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:23:21PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:23:21PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think > (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as > ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar. Can someone that knows what they are get a list of them together so we can ship it off to DG to create the DNS entries? -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:43:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from epsilon.lucida.qc.ca (epsilon.lucida.qc.ca [216.95.146.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1497D37B5F8 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@ARPA.MAIL.NET) Received: (qmail 49653 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Apr 2000 19:43:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Apr 2000 19:43:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:43:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Heckaman X-Sender: matt@epsilon.lucida.qc.ca To: Kris Kennaway Cc: David O'Brien , hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Could anyone clue me in as to what kind of resources mirroring the int. crypto would take? I'd be more than willing to setup a Canadian mirror, I'm on T1 to UUnet Canada here in Montreal. Thanks, Matt On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: : Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:23:21 -0400 : From: Kris Kennaway : To: David O'Brien : Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org : Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror : : On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: : : > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably : > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP : > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from : > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? : : There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think : (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as : ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar. : : Kris : : ---- : In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. : -- Charles Forsythe : : : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org : with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message : Matt Heckaman matt@arpa.mail.net http://www.lucida.qc.ca -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (FreeBSD) Comment: http://www.lucida.qc.ca/pgp iD8DBQE47OjYdMMtMcA1U5ARAoTQAKDfd9wcJd8MY4TZZl7miOS1lj8lAgCfbWir 8q2lNQBUsRbmitavcTwWX5o= =XgMO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:47:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF4D37BA81; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA79349; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "David O'Brien" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, security@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000406123004.A13677@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:23:21PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think > > (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as > > ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar. > > Can someone that knows what they are get a list of them together so we > can ship it off to DG to create the DNS entries? I don't think that anyone knows them all..but quite a few have already been reported. I guess the thing to do is to make sure they have the same directory structure as internat though, so people can simply substitute e.g. ftp2.internat.freebsd.org for something which tries to fetch(1) from internat. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:52:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBF737B993; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ticso@cicely8.cicely.de) Received: from mail.cicely.de (cicely.de [194.231.9.142]) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05537; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:51:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from cicely8.cicely.de (cicely8.cicely.de [10.1.2.10]) by mail.cicely.de (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA45932; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:52:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely8.cicely.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA31235; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:53:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:53:18 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Jesper Skriver , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000406215318.A31205@cicely8.cicely.de> References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk> <20000406141615.H80268@skriver.dk> <20000406120548.B81460@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000406120548.B81460@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:05:48PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:05:48PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200, Jesper Skriver wrote: > > > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > > > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > > > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org? > > > > If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org > > I have no idea how big the collection is -- I could just finally login, > but an ``ls'' timed out. I found out that not using passive mode works. -- B.Walter COSMO-Project http://www.cosmo-project.de ticso@cicely.de Usergroup info@cosmo-project.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 13:10:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (auemail2.lucent.com [192.11.223.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1FC37B6A1 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gcorcoran@lucent.com) Received: from auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05029 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:09:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mhmail.mh.lucent.com (h135-3-115-8.lucent.com [135.3.115.8]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05023; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:09:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by mhmail.mh.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id QAA21849; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:14:03 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? References: <38EC3755.DA40DEC8@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner, > rid = 0x10; > res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); ... > should do the trick. Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is > I/O mapped rather than memory mapped. > > In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space > where the BAR register that you want to use is. Multiples of 4 only > need apply. Thanks, that helps. BUT... At first I thought "res1" would be the base address I was looking for. However, it appears (boy I wish this stuff was documented!) that bus_alloc_resource returns a "struct resource *". But I looked and looked and I can't find the definition of what a "struct resource" is. So I'm still in the dark as to how to get my I/O base address from the pointer returned by the bus_alloc_resource. How do I do that? Thanks, Gary -- ========================================================= Gary Corcoran - Distinguished Member of Technical Staff Lucent Microelectronics - Client Access Broadband Systems Communications Protocol & Driver Development Group "We make the drivers that make communications work" Email: gcorcoran@lucent.com --------------------------------------------------------- There are only two kinds of machines - those that fail little by little, and those that fail all at once. ========================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 13:48:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F94237B79C; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29922; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:48:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA24761; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:48:12 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, security@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000406134812.J13677@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu References: <20000406123004.A13677@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:47:16PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:47:16PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > I guess the thing to do is to make sure they have the same directory > structure as internat though, so people can simply substitute e.g. > ftp2.internat.freebsd.org for something which tries to fetch(1) from > internat. Can someone that can actually get into ftp.internat.freebsd.org compare them? -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:30:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88F537BA10 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Received: from calcaphon.demon.co.uk ([193.237.19.5] helo=bluebottle.qubesoft.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12dJqf-000M9k-0C; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:29:57 +0000 Received: from henny.qubesoft.com (henny.qubesoft.com [192.168.1.5]) by bluebottle.qubesoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA04902; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:32:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:26:55 +0100 (BST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@localhost Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: David Yeske Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: usb stuff In-Reply-To: <20000331031808.8427.qmail@web112.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I am using a usb mouse, and dlink ethernet nic connected to a belkin > usb hub in FreeBSD 4.0R. I also have a "Solidtek ACK-298" keyboard, > but I have not gotten any progress out of it in freebsd. Has anyone > tried usb "direct connect" with freebsd? That would be much cooler > than plip I think... The direct connect thingies are not yet supported. But I have one at home and two different drivers that kind of make it work. The (netgraph based) driver was written by Doug Ambrisko and Julian Elischer. Nick -- n_hibma@webweaving.org n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:30:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA9337BA41 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02789; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:30:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA93631; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:29:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004062129.PAA93631@harmony.village.org> To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:14:03 EDT." <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> References: <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> <38EC3755.DA40DEC8@home.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:29:19 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes: : At first I thought "res1" would be the base address I was looking for. : However, it appears (boy I wish this stuff was documented!) that : bus_alloc_resource returns a "struct resource *". But I looked and : looked and I can't find the definition of what a "struct resource" is. : So I'm still in the dark as to how to get my I/O base address from : the pointer returned by the bus_alloc_resource. How do I do that? bt = rman_get_bustag(res1); bh = rman_get_bushandle(res1); bus_space_read_{1,2,4}(bt, bh, offset) bus_space_write_{1,2,4}(bt, bh, offset, value) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:54:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131D037BBCA for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matey@cis.ohio-state.edu) Received: from zeta.cis.ohio-state.edu (matey@zeta.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.112.46]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20826; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from matey@localhost) by zeta.cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA25152; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:54:22 -0400 From: Alexander Matey To: Cameron Grant Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: newpcm - multiple playback channels support Message-ID: <20000406175422.A391@cis.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Cameron, I was playing around newpcm quite a bit lately and noticed the following. All device nodes (dsp%d.%d, ...) which newpcm code registers if more than a single playback/recording channel is supported by a sound card driver have same minor number which ultimately points to channel 0 (I'm wondering how t4dwave.c has been able to support 4 playback channels). DEVFS entries look like this: lx$kazoo:/sys/kern ll /d/dsp* crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.1 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.2 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.3 The source of the problem seems to be the code in /sys/dev/sound/pcm/sound.c. Macros PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) and PCMCHAN(x) use 2nd byte to store the channel index in device minor: #define PCMMINOR(x) (minor(x)) #define PCMCHAN(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x0000ff00) >> 8) #define PCMUNIT(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x000000f0) >> 4) #define PCMDEV(x) (PCMMINOR(x) & 0x0000000f) #define PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) ((((c) & 0xff) << 8) | (((u) & 0x0f) << 4) | ((d) & 0x0f)) And minor() from /sys/kern/kern_conf.c masks out 2nd byte because it's used by makedev() (also from /sys/kern/kern_conf.c) to store device major number. We're losing channel index here: int minor(dev_t x) { if (x == NODEV) return NOUDEV; return(x->si_udev & 0xffff00ff); } The following patch to sound.c moves audio channel index to 3rd byte of device minor number: lx$kazoo:/snd/pcm diff ~/cvs/sys_dev_sound/pcm/sound.c ./sound.c 69c69 < currently minor = (channel << 8) + (unit << 4) + dev --- > currently minor = (channel << 16) + (unit << 4) + dev 80c80 < minor = (channel << 8) + (unit << 4) + dev --- > minor = (channel << 16) + (unit << 4) + dev 84c84 < #define PCMCHAN(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x0000ff00) >> 8) --- > #define PCMCHAN(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x00ff0000) >> 16) 87c87 < #define PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) ((((c) & 0xff) << 8) | (((u) & 0x0f) << 4) | ((d) & 0x0f)) --- > #define PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) ((((c) & 0xff) << 16) | (((u) & 0x0f) << 4) | ((d) & 0x0f)) After applying this patch: lx$kazoo:/sys/kern ll /d/dsp* crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 0x00010003 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.1 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 0x00020003 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.2 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 0x00030003 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.3 I successfully tested this configuration with 4 instances of mpg123 playing 4 different streams thru dsp0.[0-3] simultaneously on my Diamond MX-300 card. I'm currently in the process of porting Aureal's linux driver for au88x0 chipsets to FreeBSD (yes, it contains binary only modules, unfortunately). If this change isn't breaking anything I think we could consider incorporating this into /sys/dev/sound/pcm/sound.c. /dev/MAKEDEV does not need to be updated since it only creates device nodes for channel 0. Any comments? -- Alexander Matey Columbus, OH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:59:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB50C37BBCA for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02936; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:59:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA93912; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:58:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004062158.PAA93912@harmony.village.org> To: J McKitrick Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:41:15 BST." <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:58:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> J McKitrick writes: : Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh? I don't think so. Strikes me a a hugely *BAD* idea. If you have bad memory, replace it, don't work around it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 15: 1: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1968E37B8A9; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02946; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:00:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA93925; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:59:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004062159.PAA93925@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Cc: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:39:57 MDT." <38ECCBED.F5409DF3@softweyr.com> References: <38ECCBED.F5409DF3@softweyr.com> <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:59:58 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38ECCBED.F5409DF3@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : For a mere $100,000 per year I could anchor a boat 3 miles outside the : golden gate and get a wireless T-1 service. Anybody got some change? If you could find a location that this would be legal from, I'd be game to help :-) Wanrer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 17: 5:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2182D37C332 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01618; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200004070010.RAA01618@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:14:03 EDT." <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:10:38 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Warner, > > > rid = 0x10; > > res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE); > ... > > should do the trick. Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is > > I/O mapped rather than memory mapped. > > > > In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space > > where the BAR register that you want to use is. Multiples of 4 only > > need apply. > > Thanks, that helps. BUT... > At first I thought "res1" would be the base address I was looking for. > However, it appears (boy I wish this stuff was documented!) that > bus_alloc_resource returns a "struct resource *". But I looked and > looked and I can't find the definition of what a "struct resource" is. > So I'm still in the dark as to how to get my I/O base address from > the pointer returned by the bus_alloc_resource. How do I do that? You don't. You use rman_get_bustag() and rman_get_bushandle() to get the bus tag and bus handle for the region, and then pass these to the bus_space_read_? and bus_space_write_? functions when you want to perform your I/O. You're probably looking at code that thinks it can do "inb" and so forth; sorry, we don't do that anymore (and if you want this code to work on anything other than an x86 system, you need to come to grips with this). If you're fighting a legacy codebase, you've got an interesting time ahead of you with six separate regions; just hacking around this with preprocessor macros isn't going to be terribly easy. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 17:46:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (alemail1.lucent.com [192.11.221.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E878837C1FC; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gcorcoran@lucent.com) Received: from alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04240; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mhmail.mh.lucent.com (h135-3-115-8.lucent.com [135.3.115.8]) by alemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04236; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by mhmail.mh.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id UAA20644; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:50:45 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? References: <200004070010.RAA01618@mass.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > You're probably looking at code that thinks it can do "inb" and so forth; Yep, more or less. That is, sprinkled throughout the code, there are things of the form (just to give 1 example): NdisRawReadPortUchar( (OneOfTheBaseAddresses + SomeOffset), &variable); > sorry, we don't do that anymore (and if you want this code to work on > anything other than an x86 system, you need to come to grips with this). I kinda figured that. However, since I don't have anything but x86 systems in my lab, and this FreeBSD support is (so far) only a one-man-show, and we won't be releasing the source code for this, I'm willing to special-case it if need be... > If you're fighting a legacy codebase, you've got an interesting time > ahead of you with six separate regions; just hacking around this with > preprocessor macros isn't going to be terribly easy. Yes, I'm trying to port our driver by supplying "glue" in the form of macros and small translating C routines (plus FreeBSD-only initialization code). And I see you understand the problem -- I was hoping to do something like: #define NdisRawReadPortUchar( _port, _ptr) *(_ptr) = inb((_port)) But for this scheme to work, I need to have the base addresses defined correctly, since when I get an NdisRawReadPort*(), I don't know from which of the base addresses they offset. Now I can come up with a kluge, and assign arbitrary but defined addresses to the base addresses, and then write a little glue subroutine to see if the port address is within a certain range it must have been an offset from that certain bus resource, subtract the then-known base address to get the offset, and then do the bus_space_read. But you can see that that is a kluge which adds a few cycles of overhead for every access (and is more suited to a small routine than a macro :). So I was about to ask for help in getting the real I/O base addresses, when I went looking through the system header files and found that, for x86 machines, the "handle" is, effectively, really the I/O base address. So, since I'm only targeting x86 machines anyway, I decided to "cheat" and take the return values from rman_get_bushandle() and assign them to my base addresses. Then I *can* use the simple macros like the one above. As long as I stick to x86 machines, do you see any problem in doing this? [Side note: now that I wiped FreeBSD 3.4 and installed 4.0, I'm getting random spontaneous reboots of my machine, 2 or 3 times per day (just running X, terminals, and either vi or a screensaver). It's *very* annoying! :) :-( (and I haven't even *tried* to load *my* driver yet) Nothing shows up in /var/log/messages, but I guess that's not too surprising.] Thanks, Gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:46: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lince.tdnet.com.br (lince.tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CB037BA30 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kernel@tdnet.com.br) Received: from tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.100] by lince.tdnet.com.br with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.00) id A167B9650160; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:52:55 -0300 Message-ID: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:41:16 +0000 From: Gustavo V G C Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? Would the entiry system crash ? -- If you're happy, you're successful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:56:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74CA37C1C4 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:56:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e372M6t28689; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:22:06 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Message-ID: <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br>; from kernel@tdnet.com.br on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:41:16PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Gustavo V G C Rios [000406 19:12] wrote: > Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional > system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? > > Would the entiry system crash ? please define "wrongly coded". -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:56:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C085137B62A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA92728; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:56:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070156.SAA92728@apollo.backplane.com> To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional :system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? : :Would the entiry system crash ? Yes. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:56:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2A637B9EC for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20523; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:26:14 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:26:14 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Gustavo V G C Rios Subject: RE: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Apr-00 Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional > system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? ^-- I assume you mean 'driver' > Would the entiry system crash ? It depends on the bug, sometimes you'll just spin forever, or end up keeping processes stuck in your driver etc.. Othertimes the system will panic (ie try to reference memory you shouldn't etc..) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19: 6:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053EB37BF01; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03756; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:06:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA95227; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:05:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070205.UAA95227@harmony.village.org> To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? Cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:50:45 EDT." <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> References: <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> <200004070010.RAA01618@mass.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:05:32 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes: : #define NdisRawReadPortUchar( _port, _ptr) *(_ptr) = inb((_port)) Yes. The bus_space_handle_t that rman_get_bushandle returns on the i386 is the portnumber in I/O space. However, you'll need a separate one for each of them since you don't know where the bios is going to map the areas relative to one another. : for x86 machines, the "handle" is, effectively, really the I/O base address. Yes. : As long as I stick to x86 machines, do you see any problem in doing this? As long as they don't cahnge too much, you should be OK at this. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19: 9:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610F737BCDD for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e372ZLk29082; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:35:21 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Gustavo V G C Rios , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Message-ID: <20000406193521.P22104@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <200004070156.SAA92728@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004070156.SAA92728@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:56:19PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Matthew Dillon [000406 19:24] wrote: > :Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional > :system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? > : > :Would the entiry system crash ? > > Yes. Yes, but assuming he means driver just about any wrongly coded driver under any OS has the potential to lock up or crash the entire system, I'm pretty sure I read that incorrect accesses to some devices may cause them to wedge system busses, at that point there's not much one can do besideds panic. So it's not just unix. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:13:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from stud.alakhawayn.ma (stud.alakhawayn.ma [193.194.63.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D6537BFB0 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma) Received: from localhost (992C396651@localhost) by stud.alakhawayn.ma (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id CAA20485 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:12:22 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:12:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: need help Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi : when loading the kernel , i have the following error : > file system failed help! >try to enter the full path shell or -------- how to resolve this problem , to enter the freebsd interface, and complete the kernel load best regards, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:19:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from stud.alakhawayn.ma (stud.alakhawayn.ma [193.194.63.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C7D37BD70 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:19:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma) Received: from localhost (992C396651@localhost) by stud.alakhawayn.ma (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id CAA20497 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:18:27 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:18:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: need help Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi : when loading the kernel , i have the following error : ************************************************** the following file system had an unnexpected inconsistency: /dev/rwd0s1e(/var) > file system failed help! >try to enter the full path shell or -------- ************************************************* how to resolve this problem , to enter the freebsd interface, and complete the kernel load best regards, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:20:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (auemail2.lucent.com [192.11.223.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2C237C114; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gcorcoran@lucent.com) Received: from auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18823; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mhmail.mh.lucent.com (h135-3-115-8.lucent.com [135.3.115.8]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18816; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by mhmail.mh.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id WAA27711; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38ED46F0.74666BF4@lucent.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:24:48 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()? References: <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> <200004070010.RAA01618@mass.cdrom.com> <200004070205.UAA95227@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes: > : #define NdisRawReadPortUchar( _port, _ptr) *(_ptr) = inb((_port)) > > Yes. The bus_space_handle_t that rman_get_bushandle returns on the > i386 is the portnumber in I/O space. However, you'll need a separate > one for each of them since you don't know where the bios is going to > map the areas relative to one another. Right. > : As long as I stick to x86 machines, do you see any problem in doing this? > > As long as they don't cahnge too much, you should be OK at this. Okay - thanks. Now I just have to get my code to compile (into a module)... ;-) Gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:57:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lince.tdnet.com.br (lince.tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87DE37B5C4 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kernel@tdnet.com.br) Received: from tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.100] by lince.tdnet.com.br with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.00) id A21AEA9101DE; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:04:10 -0300 Message-ID: <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:52:30 +0000 From: Gustavo V G C Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Gustavo V G C Rios [000406 19:12] wrote: > > Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional > > system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? > > > > Would the entiry system crash ? > > please define "wrongly coded". Definition: the driver tries to access a memory outside its memory space. Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices? This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ? -- If you're happy, you're successful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 20: 7:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF97937C039 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:YIs6j/PFlYiSXULwGFBytPz4k1UuDgC4@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7Wpl2) with ESMTP id MAA05457; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:06:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.7.6+2.6Wbeta7/3.4W/zodiac-May96) with ESMTP id MAA03369; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:13:15 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200004070313.MAA03369@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:30:38 -0400." <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:13:14 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the >vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes: > >a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather >than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should >greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications >that desire so obtain Unicode input directly; As you are well aware, the keyboard driver (and keyboard related part of syscons has no knowledge about the character code generated via the keymap. Thus, we will need little or no modification to handle Unicode-based keymaps. >b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent >chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts, >get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow >creation of unified font files describing many languages at once. Um, well, we may be able to use a unified font file for many languages. But, do not expect that we will be able to create a single font file which will be suitable for ALL languages. That's simply impossible for Chinese, Japanese and Korean languages, because of the problem (deficiency) of the Han unification done in the Unicode. (That is my understanding.) >c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in >text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover, The pcvt driver already uses 512 chars. >in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with >fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed >at once. If we intend to display any languages at once in the console, the raster mode is the only solution. I agree. But, we need a fair amount of knowledge about the language/script we are dealing with, in order to display its text correctly. I don't think that a single set of Unicode->glyph mapper and font renderer is fit for the purpose. We still need language/script- specific modules. >d) userland applications wouldn't feel a thing, and will continue >to receive pure 8-bit stream translated from/to Unicode by syscons by >way of a user-supplied encoding table. Sure. >UTF-8 may play a role of >one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way >to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired. Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. >I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of >the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a >member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea, >my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do >a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This >is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide >Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be >welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue >and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria, >they will be reviewed and committed. We need more discussion to design a reasoble implementation (compromise :-) which does not make lives of some people difficult by imposing a single rigid scheme. Unicode, as it stands now, does not seem to be THE solution which addresses all the issues/problems/complexities of the languages in the world... It can be viewed/used as a tool, though. Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:17: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A84937C0C3 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20495; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:18:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:18:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <200004070313.MAA03369@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different > issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. I agree with this completely. The question is, where? -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:26:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE3137C208; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA31113; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:26:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: need help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Mourad Lakhdar wrote: > when loading the kernel , i have the following error : > ************************************************** > the following file system had an unnexpected inconsistency: > /dev/rwd0s1e(/var) You have file system problems/corruption of some kind. Enter single-user mode and try running fsck -p by hand, or failing that perhaps restore from a backup. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:32: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5E737C1CE for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:ePlnSTEn+0ayRo1dnvQuBn3y9nsD1G8K@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7Wpl2) with ESMTP id OAA06069; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:31:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.7.6+2.6Wbeta7/3.4W/zodiac-May96) with ESMTP id OAA05438; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:38:20 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200004070538.OAA05438@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:18:08 MST." References: Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:38:19 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > >> Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different >> issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. > > I agree with this completely. The question is, where? I didn't say this mailing list is not suitable for such discussion. You can discuss it here, but I think it should be in a separate thread. That's all. Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:36:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B037137B8BB for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:36:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e3762Z804586; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:02:35 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Message-ID: <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br>; from kernel@tdnet.com.br on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:52:30PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Gustavo V G C Rios [000406 20:23] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > * Gustavo V G C Rios [000406 19:12] wrote: > > > Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional > > > system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ? > > > > > > Would the entiry system crash ? > > > > please define "wrongly coded". > > Definition: the driver tries to access a memory outside its memory > space. Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however... > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices? > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ? Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 23: 4:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 44E8637C114 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:04:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from geoff@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 13112 invoked by uid 268); 7 Apr 2000 05:57:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20000407055745.13111.qmail@rucus.ru.ac.za> Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Apr 5, 2000 06:08:33 pm" To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:57:45 +0200 (SAST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: "Geoff Rehmet" From: "Geoff Rehmet" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien writes : > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? > Part of the reason for the poor access is that we are suffering from late delivery of circuits on the part of AT&T (some of the circuits have been outstanding since 15 November). - The site is located on one of our customers' premises. Of course, latency across satellite circuits also does not help. A further problem is apparent congestion on the customer's access crcuit to us - they really seem to be nailing their Internet access. (I'm seeing 600ms ping times across the access circuit.) Thus, a small modicum of improvement may be achieved if we were to mirror the site on ftp.is.co.za. This should be possible when we upgrade our ftp server (sometime this month). I can check with the administrator of our ftp site, whether he will be able to do the mirror. Only problem is that the directory structures will need to differ, as we are already ftp4.za.freebsd.org. For anyone from across the pond trying to access the site, your best mileage will probably be between 1900 and 0600 GMT, when most of our clients are asleep. Ciao, Geoff. -- Geoff Rehmet, The Internet Solution geoffr@is.co.za; geoff@rucus.ru.ac.za; csgr@freebsd.org tel: +27-83-292-5800 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 23: 9:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from account.abs.net (account.abs.net [207.114.5.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5551037B963; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardl@account.abs.net) Received: (from howardl@localhost) by account.abs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3+RBL+DUL+RSS+ORBS) id BAA14434; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:57:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from howardl) From: Howard Leadmon Message-Id: <200004070557.BAA14434@account.abs.net> Subject: Re: Troubles with network & buffers.. Any Ideas?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000327160242.02248880@marble.sentex.ca> from Mike Tancsa at "Mar 27, 2000 04:02:42 pm" To: Mike Tancsa Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL72 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Thanks for the fast reply.. :) > > > > Needless to say the machine has been rebooted since the last time it > >died, but I'll try and keep an eye on it and next time it locks if I can > >get to the console I'll see if I can grab a snapshot at that time. If a > >current running snapshot is of any use just let me know.. > > > Perhaps just setup a cronjob... > > vmstat -m >> /var/log/vm.out > > But have a look at your busier times to see if the High Use is getting > dagerously close to the limit. Do you have a lot of aliased IPs on this > box by any chance ? As its an IRC server, its no doubt subject to various > attacks. Check to see if there is any ICMP funny business being blasted at > you like a few million ICMP redirects. ipfw and sysctl can be your friend > here. > > ---Mike Hello Mike, Sorry for the long delay on this, just had a million things pop up at work and was so tired by day end I just crashed. Anyway to try and shed some more light on the above, I have done a few interesting things over the past couple weeks to try and gather some more info on what is happening. Also as for ICMP issues, I not only have ICMP limited to 32K max in my Cisco router using CAR, but also have "options ICMP_BANDLIM" defined in the kernel, and enabled in my rc.conf to just be sure I am not getting hammered in that regard. Anyway here is what I have done, hopefully this may shed some useful information, and if not I tried.. :) First as mentioned previously I had an Intel EEpro card in the box running to my Cisco Catalyst switch, and on the console when everything fell apart and I lost connectivity, I see the following: fxp0: device timeout syslogd: sendto: No buffer space available Here is some of the requested debugging information: ifconfig: fxp0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 207.114.4.35 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 207.114.4.47 inet 207.114.4.36 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.36 inet 207.114.4.45 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.45 inet 207.114.4.46 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.46 ether 00:a0:c9:c7:fb:ff media: autoselect (100baseTX ) status: active supported media: autoselect 100baseTX 100baseTX 10baseT/UTP 10baseT/UTP netstat -m: 403/21472/81920 mbufs in use (current/peak/max): 259 mbufs allocated to data 144 mbufs allocated to packet headers 124/10652/20480 mbuf clusters in use (current/peak/max) 23988 Kbytes allocated to network (1% in use) 0 requests for memory denied 0 requests for memory delayed 0 calls to protocol drain routines vmstat -m: Memory statistics by bucket size Size In Use Free Requests HighWater Couldfree 16 286 994 4581005 0 1280 32 179 36685 518690 0 640 64 14436 4380 1373135 0 320 128 1096 88 9883 0 160 256 13335 30569 317127 0 80 512 18 6 74806 0 40 1K 107 949 12272 0 20 2K 12 6 18478 0 10 4K 13 2 98260 0 5 8K 2 2 384331 0 5 16K 8 0 2689062 0 5 32K 3 0 1321506 0 5 64K 3 0 3 0 5 128K 3 0 3 0 5 256K 1 0 1 0 5 Memory usage type by bucket size Size Type(s) 16 MD disk, kld, proc-args, atexit, temp, sysctl, bus, rman, soname, pcb, mount, vnodes, ether_multi, routetbl, p1003.1b, devbuf, isa_devlist, atkbddev 32 kld, sigio, proc-args, temp, pgrp, proc, subproc, sysctl, bus, eventhandler, SWAP, pcb, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, BPF, ifaddr, ether_multi, routetbl, in_multi, tseg_qent, devbuf 64 file, proc-args, lockf, temp, session, subproc, bus, eventhandler, rman, pcb, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, ifaddr, ether_multi, routetbl, isadev, AD driver 128 ppbusdev, kld, timecounter, dev_t, proc-args, zombie, temp, cred, bus, ttys, soname, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, mount, vnodes, ifaddr, routetbl, ZONE, devbuf 256 file desc, proc-args, temp, subproc, bus, ttys, vnodes, ifaddr, routetbl, NFS daemon, FFS node, devbuf 512 kld, file desc, temp, bus, ioctlops, ptys, BIO buffer, mount, UFS mount, ATA generic, devbuf, isa_devlist 1K MD disk, kld, file desc, temp, proc, bus, ioctlops, BIO buffer, NQNFS Lease, AD driver, devbuf, isa_devlist 2K file desc, temp, bus, pcb, BIO buffer, UFS mount, devbuf 4K kld, file desc, temp, proc, devbuf, memdesc 8K kld, file desc, temp, UFS mount 16K file desc, temp, devbuf 32K file desc, temp, devbuf, mbuf 64K ISOFS mount, NFS hash, UFS ihash 128K temp, vfscache, VM pgdata 256K SWAP Memory statistics by type Type Kern Type InUse MemUse HighUse Limit Requests Limit Limit Size(s) MD disk 2 2K 2K 64194K 2 0 0 16,1K ppbusdev 3 1K 1K 64194K 3 0 0 128 ISOFS mount 1 64K 64K 64194K 1 0 0 64K kld 10 11K 16K 64194K 53 0 0 16,32,128,512,1K,4K,8K timecounter 10 2K 2K 64194K 10 0 0 128 dev_t 540 68K 68K 64194K 540 0 0 128 file desc 35 46K 60K 64194K 6800 0 0 256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K file 109 7K 283K 64194K 1135473 0 0 64 sigio 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 32 proc-args 23 1K 2K 64194K 5559 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 zombie 0 0K 1K 64194K 6753 0 0 128 atexit 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 16 lockf 1 1K 1K 64194K 23 0 0 64 temp 177 82K 115K 64194K 4596159 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K,128K pgrp 22 1K 1K 64194K 1233 0 0 32 session 20 2K 2K 64194K 949 0 0 64 proc 7 10K 10K 64194K 11 0 0 32,1K,4K subproc 72 7K 10K 64194K 14795 0 0 32,64,256 cred 9 2K 2K 64194K 1082 0 0 128 sysctl 0 0K 1K 64194K 646 0 0 16,32 bus 358 29K 29K 64194K 476 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K eventhandler 11 1K 1K 64194K 11 0 0 32,64 SWAP 2 141K 141K 64194K 2 0 0 32,256K ioctlops 0 0K 1K 64194K 5 0 0 512,1K rman 50 3K 3K 64194K 79 0 0 16,64 ttys 410 53K 63K 64194K 1229 0 0 128,256 ptys 3 2K 2K 64194K 3 0 0 512 soname 1 1K 1K 64194K 3940726 0 0 16,128 pcb 45 5K 20K 64194K 639691 0 0 16,32,64,2K BIO buffer 100 102K 1048K 64194K 9950 0 0 512,1K,2K vfscache 14044 1007K 1007K 64194K 17344 0 0 64,128,128K cluster_save buffer 0 0K 1K 64194K 694 0 0 32,64,128 mount 4 2K 2K 64194K 6 0 0 16,128,512 vnodes 24 6K 6K 64194K 327 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 BPF 3 1K 1K 64194K 3 0 0 32 ifaddr 15 2K 2K 64194K 15 0 0 32,64,128,256 ether_multi 7 1K 1K 64194K 7 0 0 16,32,64 routetbl 61 9K 10295K 64194K 585667 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 in_multi 2 1K 1K 64194K 2 0 0 32 tseg_qent 0 0K 5K 64194K 212819 0 0 32 NFS daemon 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 256 NQNFS Lease 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 1K NFS hash 1 64K 64K 64194K 1 0 0 64K p1003.1b 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 16 FFS node 13187 3297K 3297K 64194K 14242 0 0 256 UFS ihash 1 64K 64K 64194K 1 0 0 64K UFS mount 9 20K 20K 64194K 9 0 0 512,2K,8K VM pgdata 1 128K 128K 64194K 1 0 0 128K ZONE 18 3K 3K 64194K 18 0 0 128 isadev 11 1K 1K 64194K 11 0 0 64 ATA generic 0 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 512 AD driver 2 2K 2K 64194K 204988 0 0 64,1K devbuf 82 207K 207K 64194K 114 0 0 16,32,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,16K,32K mbuf 1 28K 28K 64194K 1 0 0 32K memdesc 1 4K 4K 64194K 1 0 0 4K isa_devlist 0 0K 2K 64194K 19 0 0 16,512,1K atkbddev 2 1K 1K 64194K 2 0 0 16 Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests 5472K 10077K 11398562 Now to probably complicate things more, I replaced the EEpro card with a DEC 21143 based board using the dc driver, and with that card the machine dies a little less often, but when it does the machine usually hangs hard, or reboots. Catching the console before it's totally dead, I can see the following message scrolling on the screen: dc0: watchdog timeout Different than the error from the EEpro card, but still network related, so again I dumped the above information for comparison, and here it is: ifconfig: dc0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 207.114.4.35 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 207.114.4.47 inet 207.114.4.36 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.36 inet 207.114.4.45 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.45 inet 207.114.4.46 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.46 ether 00:c0:f0:3b:a7:eb media: autoselect (100baseTX ) status: active supported media: autoselect 100baseTX 100baseTX 10baseT/UTP 10baseT/UTP none netstat -m: 7526/15744/81920 mbufs in use (current/peak/max): 6064 mbufs allocated to data 1462 mbufs allocated to packet headers 3948/7874/20480 mbuf clusters in use (current/peak/max) 17716 Kbytes allocated to network (49% in use) 0 requests for memory denied 0 requests for memory delayed 0 calls to protocol drain routines vmstat -m: Memory statistics by bucket size Size In Use Free Requests HighWater Couldfree 16 296 984 4706660 0 1280 32 3254 21706 599940 0 640 64 14657 3199 1669347 0 320 128 1099 53 15587 0 160 256 16537 14743 357609 0 80 512 14 2 30928 0 40 1K 33 743 13704 0 20 2K 13 5 40824 0 10 4K 13 2 348612 0 5 8K 2 4 1255714 0 5 16K 10 0 2479452 0 5 32K 1 0 1485462 0 5 64K 4 0 4 0 5 128K 3 0 3 0 5 256K 1 0 1 0 5 Memory usage type by bucket size Size Type(s) 16 MD disk, kld, proc-args, atexit, temp, sysctl, bus, rman, soname, pcb, mount, vnodes, ether_multi, routetbl, p1003.1b, devbuf, isa_devlist, atkbddev 32 kld, sigio, proc-args, temp, pgrp, proc, subproc, sysctl, bus, eventhandler, SWAP, pcb, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, BPF, ifaddr, ether_multi, routetbl, in_multi, tseg_qent, newblk, bmsafemap, indirdep, freefrag, freefile, diradd, dirrem, devbuf 64 file, proc-args, lockf, temp, session, subproc, bus, eventhandler, rman, pcb, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, ifaddr, ether_multi, routetbl, pagedep, allocdirect, allocindir, isadev, AD driver 128 ppbusdev, kld, timecounter, dev_t, proc-args, zombie, temp, cred, bus, ttys, soname, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, mount, vnodes, ifaddr, routetbl, inodedep, freeblks, ZONE, devbuf 256 file desc, proc-args, temp, subproc, bus, ttys, vnodes, ifaddr, routetbl, NFS daemon, newblk, FFS node, devbuf 512 kld, file desc, temp, bus, ioctlops, ptys, BIO buffer, mount, UFS mount, ATA generic, devbuf, isa_devlist 1K MD disk, kld, file desc, temp, proc, bus, ioctlops, BIO buffer, NQNFS Lease, AD driver, devbuf, isa_devlist 2K file desc, temp, bus, pcb, BIO buffer, UFS mount, devbuf 4K kld, file desc, temp, proc, devbuf, memdesc 8K kld, file desc, temp, indirdep, UFS mount 16K file desc, temp, pagedep, devbuf 32K temp, mbuf 64K ISOFS mount, NFS hash, inodedep, UFS ihash 128K temp, vfscache, VM pgdata 256K SWAP Memory statistics by type Type Kern Type InUse MemUse HighUse Limit Requests Limit Limit Size(s) MD disk 2 2K 2K 64189K 2 0 0 16,1K ppbusdev 3 1K 1K 64189K 3 0 0 128 ISOFS mount 1 64K 64K 64189K 1 0 0 64K kld 10 11K 16K 64189K 53 0 0 16,32,128,512,1K,4K,8K timecounter 10 2K 2K 64189K 10 0 0 128 dev_t 540 68K 68K 64189K 540 0 0 128 file desc 37 30K 36K 64189K 7923 0 0 256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K file 174 11K 208K 64189K 1332169 0 0 64 sigio 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 32 proc-args 24 2K 2K 64189K 6468 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 zombie 0 0K 1K 64189K 7875 0 0 128 atexit 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 16 lockf 1 1K 1K 64189K 3 0 0 64 temp 169 113K 138K 64189K 5648678 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K,128K pgrp 23 1K 1K 64189K 1400 0 0 32 session 21 2K 2K 64189K 1115 0 0 64 proc 7 10K 10K 64189K 7 0 0 32,1K,4K subproc 77 7K 9K 64189K 17254 0 0 32,64,256 cred 9 2K 2K 64189K 1264 0 0 128 sysctl 0 0K 1K 64189K 738 0 0 16,32 bus 367 31K 31K 64189K 503 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K eventhandler 11 1K 1K 64189K 11 0 0 32,64 SWAP 2 141K 141K 64189K 2 0 0 32,256K ioctlops 0 0K 1K 64189K 5 0 0 512,1K rman 50 3K 3K 64189K 79 0 0 16,64 ttys 410 53K 58K 64189K 1307 0 0 128,256 ptys 2 1K 1K 64189K 2 0 0 512 soname 1 1K 1K 64189K 3967614 0 0 16,128 pcb 50 5K 19K 64189K 738447 0 0 16,32,64,2K BIO buffer 26 28K 769K 64189K 12308 0 0 512,1K,2K vfscache 14194 1016K 1016K 64189K 18278 0 0 64,128,128K cluster_save buffer 0 0K 1K 64189K 981 0 0 32,64,128 mount 4 2K 2K 64189K 6 0 0 16,128,512 vnodes 24 6K 6K 64189K 327 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 BPF 3 1K 1K 64189K 3 0 0 32 ifaddr 16 2K 2K 64189K 16 0 0 32,64,128,256 ether_multi 7 1K 1K 64189K 7 0 0 16,32,64 routetbl 6193 871K 6957K 64189K 663076 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 in_multi 2 1K 1K 64189K 2 0 0 32 tseg_qent 0 0K 2K 64189K 220376 0 0 32 NFS daemon 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 256 NQNFS Lease 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 1K NFS hash 1 64K 64K 64189K 1 0 0 64K p1003.1b 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 16 pagedep 2 17K 17K 64189K 32 0 0 64,16K inodedep 4 65K 68K 64189K 2813 0 0 128,64K newblk 1 1K 1K 64189K 23834 0 0 32,256 bmsafemap 3 1K 1K 64189K 4690 0 0 32 allocdirect 1 1K 2K 64189K 8555 0 0 64 indirdep 1 1K 25K 64189K 2822 0 0 32,8K allocindir 1 1K 26K 64189K 15278 0 0 64 freefrag 0 0K 4K 64189K 3464 0 0 32 freeblks 0 0K 4K 64189K 1520 0 0 128 freefile 0 0K 1K 64189K 40 0 0 32 diradd 2 1K 1K 64189K 61 0 0 32 dirrem 0 0K 1K 64189K 64 0 0 32 FFS node 13320 3330K 3331K 64189K 14373 0 0 256 UFS ihash 1 64K 64K 64189K 1 0 0 64K UFS mount 9 20K 20K 64189K 9 0 0 512,2K,8K VM pgdata 1 128K 128K 64189K 1 0 0 128K ZONE 18 3K 3K 64189K 18 0 0 128 isadev 11 1K 1K 64189K 11 0 0 64 ATA generic 0 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 512 AD driver 1 1K 2K 64189K 277266 0 0 64,1K devbuf 81 175K 175K 64189K 113 0 0 16,32,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,16K mbuf 1 28K 28K 64189K 1 0 0 32K memdesc 1 4K 4K 64189K 1 0 0 4K isa_devlist 0 0K 2K 64189K 18 0 0 16,512,1K atkbddev 2 1K 1K 64189K 2 0 0 16 Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests 6372K 5380K 13003847 All of the above stats were taken while the network card was spitting out errors prior to performing a reboot which brings the box back online. I also tried unplugging the nic and plugging it back in without out any change. I also over time have replaced everything in the box except the case, but still the problem persists, and in fact took the old hardware and built a different machine that works fine. So something related to the heavy use by the IRC programs is killing this thing almost daily, and I am at a loss as to what. If you or anyone here on the list has any ideas, I would sure love to hear them, as it would be nice to get to the bottom of this issue... --- Howard Leadmon - howardl@abs.net - http://www.abs.net ABSnet Internet Services - Phone: 410-361-8160 - FAX: 410-361-8162 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 0:48:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from boco.fee.vutbr.cz (boco.fee.vutbr.cz [147.229.9.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B4037C1FB for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz) Received: from kazi.dcse.fee.vutbr.cz (kazi.dcse.fee.vutbr.cz [147.229.8.12]) by boco.fee.vutbr.cz (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e377mEt10547 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:48:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from cejkar@localhost) by kazi.dcse.fee.vutbr.cz (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e377mD552482 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:48:13 +0200 From: Cejka Rudolf To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000407094813.A51749@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 06:08:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote (2000/04/05): > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? I want to mirror it (on ftp.cz.FreeBSD.org), but it looks as a complete mirrored tree with some added files. In this case it is almost impossible to mirror it - connectivity is very bad, I do not have another 30 GB disk and I don't want to have two similar full FreeBSD trees where it is hard to determine differences. Please, does anybody know how big is repository on ftp.internat.FreeBSD.org? It would be great if FreeBSD team create some master FreeBSD-international site, where just only changed or added files will be put (< 10 GB). In this case I will be able to immediately mirror it regardless of the connectivity. -- Rudolf Cejka (cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz; http://www.fee.vutbr.cz/~cejkar) Brno University of Technology, Faculty of El. Engineering and Comp. Science Bozetechova 2, 612 66 Brno, Czech Republic To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 1:38: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C166337B70F; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA50594; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:38:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Cejka Rudolf Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, markm@freebsd.org Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000407094813.A51749@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Cejka Rudolf wrote: > David O'Brien wrote (2000/04/05): > > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably > > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > > ftp.internat.freebsd.org? > > I want to mirror it (on ftp.cz.FreeBSD.org), but it looks as a complete > mirrored tree with some added files. In this case it is almost impossible > to mirror it - connectivity is very bad, I do not have another 30 GB disk > and I don't want to have two similar full FreeBSD trees where it is hard > to determine differences. > > Please, does anybody know how big is repository on ftp.internat.FreeBSD.org? Mark Murray would know :-) I think there's a lot of stale cruft on ftp.internat.freebsd.org which doesn't need to be mirrored - Mark could probably tell us all which bits are suitable for mirroring (this should be documented somewhere for posterity) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 2:52: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE0F37B65A; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA54684; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:44:42 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from jhay) From: John Hay Message-Id: <200004070944.LAA54684@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000406215318.A31205@cicely8.cicely.de> from Bernd Walter at "Apr 6, 2000 09:53:18 pm" To: ticso@cicely.de (Bernd Walter) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:44:42 +0200 (SAT) Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG (David O'Brien), jesper@skriver.dk (Jesper Skriver), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:05:48PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200, Jesper Skriver wrote: > > > > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP > > > > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from > > > > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org? > > > > > > If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org > > > > I have no idea how big the collection is -- I could just finally login, > > but an ``ls'' timed out. > > I found out that not using passive mode works. Oops, that was my fault. Somewhere in all the wu-ftpd upgrades the ports that the CSIR firewall allowed and what wu-ftpd tried to use for passive ftp got out of sync. Should be fixed now. At the moment our (the CSIR's) internet link is VERY saturated during working hours (we are in SA so GMT+2). If you can try after hours, you should have better luck. The people responsible for our network are playing with a PacketShaper from Packeteer to see if that will help, but at the moment it seems that ftp response is worse than ever. I'm trying to work with them to see if we can get it better. BTW. Wes Peters' idea of a boat is way cheaper than what we pay for our 1Mbit/s link here. :-) John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 3:16:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84DC37B541 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA29421; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:16:13 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Alex Belits Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000407061613.A29364@sasami.jurai.net> References: <200004070313.MAA03369@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:18:08PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:18:08PM -0700: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > > > Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different > > issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. > > I agree with this completely. The question is, where? I suggest starting a discussion on that topic in freebsd-i18n as soon as it's created. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 4:13:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E38A37B541 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA30020; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:13:22 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000407071322.A29764@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net> <200004070313.MAA03369@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004070313.MAA03369@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>; from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:13:14PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm glad we are discussing specific technical issues now. Perhaps we should move this discussion to freebsd-i18n once it's created? You, Kazutaka YOKOTA, were spotted writing this on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:13:14PM +0900: > > >I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the > >vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes: > > > >a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather > >than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should > >greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications > >that desire so obtain Unicode input directly; > > As you are well aware, the keyboard driver (and keyboard related part > of syscons has no knowledge about the character code generated via the > keymap. Thus, we will need little or no modification to handle > Unicode-based keymaps. Well, new code must be written to translate Unicode values produced by the (modified) keyboard driver back into 8bit for normal userland applications. This code would use the same encoding table that syscons would use to translate 8bit output to Unicode before displaying it. Moreover, a way should be provided for userland applications to receive Unicode input directly should they want that. One solution is to simply add another mode (ks_mode member of atkbd_state structure) which would return Unicode codes directly. > >b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent > >chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts, > >get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow > >creation of unified font files describing many languages at once. > > Um, well, we may be able to use a unified font file for many > languages. But, do not expect that we will be able to create a single > font file which will be suitable for ALL languages. You are right. I won't expect that. > >c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in > >text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover, > > The pcvt driver already uses 512 chars. True text modes create an additional problem to consider: given some (Unicode) font files loaded into kernel, and a limited supply (512 minus 128) of available char slots, which glyphs should be loaded into the VGA font table? In other words, which glyphs are more important than the others? One solution is to let userland dictate this, but this isn't completely satisfying, because then userland has two additional control structures now to provide for the kernel: encoding table for 8bit<-->Unicode translation and mapping table for Unicode->512chars translation, the latter being also irrelevant for the raster modes. I'll look into how Linux people handled this issue. > >in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with > >fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed > >at once. > > If we intend to display any languages at once in the console, the > raster mode is the only solution. I agree. But, we need a fair > amount of knowledge about the language/script we are dealing with, in > order to display its text correctly. Let's try to enumerate the issues we will run into here. After all a new font file format depends crucially on that. We need to reach a conclusion on what is realistic and what isn't to provide on a fixed-width console. For instance, I would love to be able to handle bidirectional output and Hebrew diacritics, but I am not sure at all this is realistic to provide. > >UTF-8 may play a role of > >one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way > >to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired. > > Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different > issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. I agree, but I'm rather talking here about allowing (future) userland multilingual processing, rather than what and how it should be done. What I mean here is that the encoding table format should be more flexible than "one byte <-->one UCS-2 code" because that will not allow simple and easy UTF-8 translation in the future, should we want that. > We need more discussion to design a reasoble implementation > (compromise :-) which does not make lives of some people difficult by > imposing a single rigid scheme. Great, let's have this discussion right here and now ;) > Unicode, as it stands now, does not seem to be THE solution which > addresses all the issues/problems/complexities of the languages in the > world... It can be viewed/used as a tool, though. I agree with that completely. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6: 2:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from p01mail03.midata.com (p01mail03.midata.com [207.250.225.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3D337B858 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com) Received: from p51mail02.midata.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p01mail03.midata.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17251 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:02:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com Subject: Re: bad memory patch? To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:46:24 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DSGATE02/MICORPEX/US(Release 5.0.2a |November 23, 1999) at 04/07/2000 08:01:51 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the mapping instead of the OS) Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea" -=bob=- Warner Losh @FreeBSD.ORG on 04/06/2000 04:58:59 PM Sent by: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG To: J McKitrick cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad memory patch? In message <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> J McKitrick writes: : Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh? I don't think so. Strikes me a a hugely *BAD* idea. If you have bad memory, replace it, don't work around it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6:31:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.research.kpn.com (hermes.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1B437BD8F for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from K.J.Koster@kpn.com) Received: from l04.research.kpn.com (l04.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.204]) by research.kpn.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #35196) with ESMTP id <01JNYJO0ZAUY0014C3@research.kpn.com> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:31:09 +0200 Received: by l04.research.kpn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:31:08 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:31:07 +0100 From: "Koster, K.J." Subject: RE: bad memory patch? To: "'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list' Message-id: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A80@l04.research.kpn.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just > curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea" > I can think of four things real quick: 1) Disks are much slowere, and controllers actually have time to do proper error detection. Memory is built for raw, blind speed. The analogy that memory is a disk does not hold for long. 2) Testing memory is a nightmare. It's virtually impossible to test your RAM and guarantee it is right. If the memory test tells you your RAM is broken, you have to replace it. If it tells you your RAM is fine, it may or may not be fine. Much like a pregnancy test. :-) Thus, expecting the OS to find and mark bad memory for you will give you a false sense of security. 2) Working around bad blocks in disks is a stop-gap measure, but a neccessary evil. You need it to be able to limp along until it is 9:00 am Monday morning and the shops open for you to buy a new disk. (Head crashes are chiefly caused by the late saturday *click* of the lock on the doors of CompUSA). With RAM, that situation does not occur, because there is no user data in RAM. You can rip a memory module out of any old server that's lying around and get the machine back on line in minutes. You can halve the number of memory modules in a server, and it will run as before (if a little slower). 3) Claiming that FreeBSD will run fine on bad hardware is asking for trouble. Use your imagination. Think "screwdriver". Kees Jan PS. If you have only a single memory module in your box, well, sorry. Now you know why I buy two. :-) ============================================== You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6:36:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay02.chello.nl (relay02.chello.nl [212.83.68.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6C437BC46 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay02.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 99c8f334c649856e3f2cdadc4054e412) with ESMTP id <20000407133626.SET23338.relay02@chello.nl>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:36:26 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07594; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:36:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:36:46 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: "Koster, K.J." Cc: "'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000407153646.A7558@yedi.wbnet> Reply-To: wc.bulte@chello.nl References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A80@l04.research.kpn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A80@l04.research.kpn.com>; from K.J.Koster@kpn.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:31:07PM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:31:07PM +0100, Koster, K.J. wrote: > > > > Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just > > curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea" > > > I can think of four things real quick: > > 1) Disks are much slowere, and controllers actually have time to do proper > error detection. Memory is built for raw, blind speed. The analogy that > memory is a disk does not hold for long. > > 2) Testing memory is a nightmare. It's virtually impossible to test your RAM > and guarantee it is right. If the memory test tells you your RAM is broken, > you have to replace it. If it tells you your RAM is fine, it may or may not > be fine. Much like a pregnancy test. :-) Thus, expecting the OS to find and > mark bad memory for you will give you a false sense of security. And Real Systems [tm] use ECC memory. ;-) -- Wilko Bulte Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org http://www.tcja.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6:47:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7723137B7BF for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:47:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrs@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (jrs@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04928; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:44:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jrs@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:44:58 -0500 (CDT) From: John Sconiers To: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: need help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Type [enter] You should then be at a "#" sign Type " fsck -y " when it gets done Type 'exit' It should continue booting. > hi : > when loading the kernel , i have the following error : > ************************************************** > the following file system had an unnexpected inconsistency: > /dev/rwd0s1e(/var) > > file system failed help! > >try to enter the full path shell or -------- > ************************************************* > how to resolve this problem , to enter the freebsd interface, and complete > the kernel load > best regards, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 7:21:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from aaz.links.ru (aaz.links.ru [193.125.152.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C19837BC8C for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from babolo@links.ru) Received: (from babolo@localhost) by aaz.links.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07914; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:21:36 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <200004071421.SAA07914@aaz.links.ru> Subject: Re: bad memory patch? In-Reply-To: from "Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com" at "Apr 7, 0 07:46:24 am" To: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:21:36 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Aleksandr A.Babaylov" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes: > Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, > but isn't this situation analagous to bad sectors > on a hard drive? Yes it is not. > Isn't this similar, at least in theory, to remapping dead > sectors and continuing to use the drive? > (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the > mapping instead of the OS) Difference is in fault model. hard drive surface fault can only grows to some more bits, which usually resides in the same sector or affect low quantity of another sectors. Every DRAM bit fault affect common for many bits circuitry first before anoter bit fault occur. And remember, such a fault affect mostly far bits (in another words and pages) > Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just curious as to > WHY so many people > think this is a "bad idea" > -=bob=- > Warner Losh @FreeBSD.ORG on 04/06/2000 04:58:59 PM > > To: J McKitrick > > Subject: Re: bad memory patch? > > In message <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> J McKitrick > writes: > : Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh? > I don't think so. Strikes me a a hugely *BAD* idea. If you have bad > memory, replace it, don't work around it. PS sorry bad English -- @BABOLO http://links.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:18:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from thorin.hway.ru (thorin.hway.ru [195.170.38.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5056B37BA1D for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from flash@intech.hway.ru) Received: from balin.intech.hway.ru (balin.intech.hway.ru [192.168.1.25]) by thorin.hway.ru (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA24715 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:17:11 +0400 (MSD) Received: from localhost (flash@localhost) by balin.intech.hway.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01376 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:17:11 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from flash@balin.intech.hway.ru) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:17:11 +0400 (MSD) From: "Alexander V. Tischenko" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Strange issue with directed broadcasts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Hackers, Recently i stumbled accross strange security feature with ip_input(). The task i was performing required usage of net directed broadcasts (samba, remote announce, freebsds as routers). Those broadcasts never reached their subnets. I understand that it is a security feature nowerdays :) , but probably router should have a configurable mechanism (as ciscos for example) to forward or not such beasts into their attached net. The code in question is around lines 498 of ip_input.c version 1.131. No attempt is made to check the interface the packet came in nor provisions for duplication. As a result, clients and servers behind such router never see announcements from remote, unless they reside on the router itself. (Yes, i have to use direct ip non-broadcast announcements now, but would prefer broadcasts for some reasons :) My solution would be to check rcvif vs ia_ifp and accept the packet as 'ours' only if those ifs are the same. Note, that if we will not accept the packet, but forward it instead, if will get back to us - feature of ethernet. Any solutions, advice, reasons why not ? Thank you in advance, Alexander V. Tischenko ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Integrated Network Technologies | Tel: +7 095 978-47-37 7, Miusskaya sq., Moscow, 125047 Russia | Fax: +7 095 978-47-37 Internet: flash@hway.ru | NIC: AT55-RIPE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:23:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lince.tdnet.com.br (lince.tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BFD37B99F for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kernel@tdnet.com.br) Received: from tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.134] by lince.tdnet.com.br with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.00) id A0E2646001B8; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:29:54 -0300 Message-ID: <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:18:17 +0000 From: Gustavo V G C Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and > io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems > with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however... > > > > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices? > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ? > > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage. > That's the point! Why not a different approach ? Why not starting a microkernel arch? The microkernel would basically do just feel tasks, like: IPC: managing and routing messages. Process scheduling. First level interrupt handling. All other tasks would run in like any other user process, like a fyle system daemon, process daemon , internet daemon (not inetd), and, of course, device drivers programs. This design, would not let a system crash due to device drivers problems or even bad hardware desgin. What all you think about that ? -- If you're happy, you're successful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:29: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kcmso1.proxy.att.com (kcmso1.att.com [192.128.133.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC4537B965 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from myevmenkin@att.com) Received: from mo3980r1.ems.att.com ([135.38.12.14]) by kcmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-2.2) with ESMTP id LAA16625; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140bh1.ems.att.com by mo3980r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id LAA29158; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by njb140bh1.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <23Y3X2VG>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:28:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" To: "'Gustavo V G C Rios'" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:28:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [...] > > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices? > > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ? > > > > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on > > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage. > > > [...] > This design, would not let a system crash due to device > drivers problems > or even bad hardware desgin. > > What all you think about that ? only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation. Thanks, emax To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:31:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D22B37BF06 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (root@rac3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.143]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00680; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24445; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24441; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:30:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac3.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:30:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? In-Reply-To: <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't think that's quite true. I've seen microkernels crash because of bad drivers. I think no matter what, even in a microkernel the drivers have to interface directly to the kernel. I could be wrong but I thought that in a microkernel, drivers were loaded as kernel modules. ================================================================= | Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. | | Unix Systems Administrator | ICQ #: 24767726 | | and student at The | AIM: muythaibxr | | The University of Maryland, | Website: (Under Construction) | | College Park. | http://www.wam.umd.edu/~culverk/| ================================================================= On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and > > io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems > > with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however... > > > > > > > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices? > > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ? > > > > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on > > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage. > > > > That's the point! > Why not a different approach ? > Why not starting a microkernel arch? The microkernel would basically do > just feel tasks, like: > > IPC: managing and routing messages. > Process scheduling. > First level interrupt handling. > > > All other tasks would run in like any other user process, like a fyle > system daemon, process daemon , internet daemon (not inetd), and, of > course, device drivers programs. > > This design, would not let a system crash due to device drivers problems > or even bad hardware desgin. > > What all you think about that ? > > > -- > If you're happy, you're successful. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:38:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lince.tdnet.com.br (lince.tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C69C37BC51 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kernel@tdnet.com.br) Received: from tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.134] by lince.tdnet.com.br with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.00) id A457ABA201DE; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:44:39 -0300 Message-ID: <38EDD57E.56A2681B@tdnet.com.br> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:33:02 +0000 From: Gustavo V G C Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote: > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation. > > Thanks, > emax Excuse me gentleman, who said that ? Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular design). The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done? This OS uses microkernel arch. Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch. Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD? PS: I never seen anything fast and reliable like that. -- If you're happy, you're successful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:57:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from quack.kfu.com (quack.kfu.com [170.1.70.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7D137BD82 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nsayer@quack.kfu.com) Received: from icarus.kfu.com (icarus.kfu.com [170.1.70.17]) by quack.kfu.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA84468; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nsayer@quack.kfu.com) Received: from quack.kfu.com by icarus.kfu.com with ESMTP (8.9.3//ident-1.0) id IAA16988; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38EE0536.F2305A40@quack.kfu.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:56:38 -0700 From: Nick Sayer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > Why not starting a microkernel arch? IMHO the microkernel is the emperor's new clothes (so is OOP, but that, I suspect, I won't get quite so much agreement on). Context switching has been mentioned, but in addition to that, the real problem is that it really doesn't change anything. It may somewhat simplify a non-critical driver like a serial port or a mouse or the like, but if a SCSI HBA driver crashes, it's likely going to make life for the microkernel very hairy, just like it would a full kernel. And a driver bug can cause the hardware to wedge the machine whether the driver is in protected or user mode too. Most people who I talk to who bring up microkernel do it because they see the process of compiling a FreeBSD kernel and think that microkernels are somehow the opposite of that. If that's the case, they should believe that Solaris is a microkernel, which it patently is not. NT comes closer, with its rings of protection, but you can hardly call that a picture of stabiliy. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 9: 0:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A6837BE49 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rminnich@lanl.gov) Received: from mini.acl.lanl.gov (root@mini.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.34]) by acl.lanl.gov (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA2553078 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:00:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (rminnich@localhost) by mini.acl.lanl.gov (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11370 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:00:07 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: mini.acl.lanl.gov: rminnich owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:00:07 -0600 (MDT) From: "Ronald G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@mini.acl.lanl.gov To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? In-Reply-To: <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > What all you think about that ? I think you need to do a literature search for, oh, say, six months and get back to us. You'll need to read ca. 256-512 or so articles. I'm not kidding. You should start reading papers from the 1960s. And oh yes, don't ignore Plan 9 just because it doesn't fit a convenient category. Also, go ahead and look at NT, but put it in the "successful marketing covering for bad implementation" column. ron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 9: 4:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lince.tdnet.com.br (lince.tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498A937BEBE for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kernel@tdnet.com.br) Received: from tdnet.com.br [200.236.148.100] by lince.tdnet.com.br with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.00) id AA9D981501B8; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:11:25 -0300 Message-ID: <38EDDBC4.51F2414D@tdnet.com.br> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:59:48 +0000 From: Gustavo V G C Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nick Sayer Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> <38EE0536.F2305A40@quack.kfu.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nick Sayer wrote: > > Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > > > Why not starting a microkernel arch? > > IMHO the microkernel is the emperor's new clothes (so is OOP, but that, > I suspect, I won't > get quite so much agreement on). > > Context switching has been mentioned, but in addition to that, the real > problem is that it > really doesn't change anything. It may somewhat simplify a non-critical > driver like a serial > port or a mouse or the like, but if a SCSI HBA driver crashes, it's > likely going to make > life for the microkernel very hairy, just like it would a full kernel. > > And a driver bug can cause the hardware to wedge the machine whether the > driver is in > protected or user mode too. > > Most people who I talk to who bring up microkernel do it because they > see the process of compiling > a FreeBSD kernel and think that microkernels are somehow the opposite of > that. If that's the > case, they should believe that Solaris is a microkernel, which it > patently is not. > > NT comes closer, with its rings of protection, but you can hardly call > that a picture of > stabiliy. Yeah! I had started to study OS (UNIX Internals: the new frontiers) internals. That book tell the same about microkernel, but when i downloaded QNX demo disk i got confused. If microkernel has such a drawnbacks, why QNX is so fast and reliable? Should you download it too, and realize what i mean. Thanks a lot for the patience. PS: I am just a beginner, so, don't take me wrong. The fact is that i am really confused about what books say about microkernel and what in that single demo floppy. I would be really glad to have some here to kindly clarify it to me. -- If you're happy, you're successful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 9:11:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kcmso1.proxy.att.com (kcmso1.att.com [192.128.133.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC1F37BE95 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:11:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from myevmenkin@att.com) Received: from njb140r1.ems.att.com ([135.65.202.58]) by kcmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-2.2) with ESMTP id MAA04834; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140bh1.ems.att.com by njb140r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id MAA18439; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by njb140bh1.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <23Y3X3HB>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:11:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" To: "'Gustavo V G C Rios'" Cc: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [...] > > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation. > > > Excuse me gentleman, who said that ? Well, Intel does :) > Take time to visit this site: > http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html I know this OS. It looks great. Perhaps, it is a good choice for embeded OS. A good OS design could help to reduce context switch overhead. Just to give you some examples of context switching overhead, please take a look at http://www.atnf.csiro.au/~rgooch/benchmarks/linux-scheduler.html Thanks, emax To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 11:18:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pinhead.parag.codegen.com (207-44-235-154.CodeGen.COM [207.44.235.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C8B37BE5E for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com) Received: from pinhead.parag.codegen.com (localhost.parag.codegen.com [127.0.0.1]) by pinhead.parag.codegen.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA76324; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:17:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com) To: wc.bulte@chello.nl Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" Subject: Re: bad memory patch? In-Reply-To: Message from Wilko Bulte of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:36:46 +0200." <20000407153646.A7558@yedi.wbnet> X-Image-URL: http://www.codegen.com/images/CG-logo-only.gif X-URL: http://www.codegen.com X-Face: =O'Kj74icvU|oS*<7gS/8'\Pbpm}okVj*@UC!IgkmZQAO!W[|iBiMs*|)n*`X ]pW%m>Oz_mK^Gdazsr.Z0/JsFS1uF8gBVIoChGwOy{EK=<6g?aHE`[\S]C]T0Wm Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:17:54 -0700 Message-ID: <76320.955131474@pinhead.parag.codegen.com> From: Parag Patel Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not necessarily a bad idea, but certainly incomplete. Being able to detect and run with bad RAM is only about halfway there. The other half is being able to remove and replace the bad RAM without taking the machine down. Like some of the old mainframes (ie TOPS-10, I think). This not only needs quite a bit more hardware support, but the software also has to be able to shuffle everything else out of the bad DIMM/SIMM/thunk into good memory before it's pulled and replaced. If you have to take the machine down anyway to replace the bad RAM once it's detected, you may as well just use a good ECC design instead. -- Parag Patel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 12:21:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D1737B557 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:21:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24026; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:21:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38EE3546.3401C084@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:21:42 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and > > io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems > > with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however... > > > > > > > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices? > > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ? > > > > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on > > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage. > > > > That's the point! > Why not a different approach ? > Why not starting a microkernel arch? The microkernel would basically do > just feel tasks, like: Great idea, but that's not what FreeBSD is about. I suggest heading for your favorite search engine and looking up "Flux OS" and "Spring OS". -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15: 5:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3629C37B96B for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07722; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:05:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA02457; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:04:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004072204.QAA02457@harmony.village.org> To: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 07:46:24 CDT." References: Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:04:23 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes: : Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation : analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at : least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the : drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the : mapping instead of the OS) It is not analagous to the bad sectors on the hard drive. First, it is not always possible to detect a bad memory cell. In today's world, these cells are often bad only some of the time. They work unless pushed really hard in strange patters. They are just barely outside of spec, and usually work. This makes their detection hard. Second, in most modern memory, the general concensus is that if you have once cell that it is bad, others are sure to follow. Or that they have already followed and are still mostly working because they are only slightly out of spec. It is much harder to know with any degree of certainty the degree to which you can trust a memory stick with even one bad cell. Pretending to be able to do things which you aren't really doing is bad. It will lead to a lot of false negatives, which is why it is such an appolingly bad idea. With disk drives, the situation is easier. Either the sector writes or it doesn't. It is much rarer that the sector will be mostly good and only occasionally bad, although stories of such no doubt exist. In most modern drives, it isn't an issue anyway as the bad maps are kept around and bad block removal is automatically done at a layer below the OS. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15: 6:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C0C37BF48 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07758; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:06:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA02515; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:05:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004072205.QAA02515@harmony.village.org> To: Gustavo V G C Rios Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:18:17 -0000." <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> References: <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:05:51 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Gustavo V G C Rios writes: : All other tasks would run in like any other user process, like a fyle : system daemon, process daemon , internet daemon (not inetd), and, of : course, device drivers programs. This still won't stop you from wedging the machine absoltely solid by programming a chip on the PCI bus in a bad way which hangs the PCI bus. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15:19:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E172237B5F1 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05160; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:19:07 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Warner Losh Cc: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000407151907.A1185@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <200004072204.QAA02457@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <200004072204.QAA02457@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:04:23PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:04:23PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes: > : Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation > : analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at > : least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the > : drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the > : mapping instead of the OS) > > It is not analagous to the bad sectors on the hard drive. First, it > is not always possible to detect a bad memory cell. In today's world, > these cells are often bad only some of the time. They work unless > pushed really hard in strange patters. They are just barely outside > of spec, and usually work. This makes their detection hard. This can be truly evil. For instance, I was at a Myricom BOF at SC99 and they said they had shipped a batch of cards (which they were replacing that their expense) that had bad static RAM chips with one bit (the exact same one on most of them) which would sometimes flip under just the right stress. I believe the finaly built a test case that could trigger the error within a couple of days knowing exactly where it was and having some idea what caused it. The key to remember with memory is that DRAM is not the nice little digital gate we like to think it is. It's a big ugly analog mess and has all sorts of boundry condititions and idea digital system wouldn't have. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15:39:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F306837BE63 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07956 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:39:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA02978 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:38:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004072238.QAA02978@harmony.village.org> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Ordering in HARDWARE.TXT Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:38:23 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What's the proper ordering for the hardware listed in HARDWARE.TXT? What's the right way to list drivers that are generally only available on embedded hardware (eg the crystal semiconductor 89x0 based hardware isn't listed in the supported section, even though it appears on many embedded boards, and also some ancient isa cards). There's gotta be a better way to do this. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15:42:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay01.chello.nl (smtp.chello.nl [212.83.68.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519BC37B5F1 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:42:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay01.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 99c8f334c649856e3f2cdadc4054e412) with ESMTP id <20000407225115.EAOD26673.relay01@chello.nl>; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:51:15 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA32154; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:42:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:42:36 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Brooks Davis Cc: Warner Losh , Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad memory patch? Message-ID: <20000408004236.A29300@yedi.wbnet> Reply-To: wc.bulte@chello.nl References: <200004072204.QAA02457@harmony.village.org> <20000407151907.A1185@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000407151907.A1185@orion.ac.hmc.edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:19:07PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:19:07PM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: > On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:04:23PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > In message Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes: > > : Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation > > : analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at > > : least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the > > : drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the > > : mapping instead of the OS) > > > > It is not analagous to the bad sectors on the hard drive. First, it > > is not always possible to detect a bad memory cell. In today's world, > > these cells are often bad only some of the time. They work unless > > pushed really hard in strange patters. They are just barely outside > > of spec, and usually work. This makes their detection hard. > > This can be truly evil. For instance, I was at a Myricom BOF at SC99 > and they said they had shipped a batch of cards (which they were > replacing that their expense) that had bad static RAM chips with one bit > (the exact same one on most of them) which would sometimes flip under > just the right stress. I believe the finaly built a test case that > could trigger the error within a couple of days knowing exactly where it > was and having some idea what caused it. > > The key to remember with memory is that DRAM is not the nice little > digital gate we like to think it is. It's a big ugly analog mess > and has all sorts of boundry condititions and idea digital system > wouldn't have. Right. In a former life I was part of a team that spent a couple of months tracking down mysterious DRAM errors. In our case we had parity checking on the machine. In the end our dear memory vendor said: "Well, you know, we might have found it. We had some mask alignment problems in manufacturing". Until then they always denied it was a chip problem. By then we knew that already, weekcode 37 from Hitachi was crap. Hitachi DRAM still gives me a weird feeling when I see it ;-) -- Wilko Bulte Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org http://www.tcja.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16: 6:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.bellatlantic.net (mail2.bellatlantic.net [151.196.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DE437B5F1 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:06:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ugen@xonix.com) Received: from xonix.com (adsl-138-89-46-148.bellatlantic.net [138.89.46.148]) by mail2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00439; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:09:27 -0400 From: Ugen Antsilevitch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <38EDD57E.56A2681B@tdnet.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote: > > > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation. > > > > Thanks, > > emax > > Excuse me gentleman, who said that ? > Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html > > You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular > design). > The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http > server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done? > > This OS uses microkernel arch. > Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch. > > Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD? > > PS: I never seen anything fast and reliable like that. Ugh...isn't it obvious by now that this is a shameless pitch for QNX... It is sad that people here actually respond to this sort of thing. "How come you guys are not like Linux?" questions should have developed some tolerance in you.. QNX is great and all the power to it. This is FreeBSD and it is unix and BSD and as such it is what it is. If it would take a QNX approach then it would not be FreeBSD but something rather different. Thats the answer... I am sure some people somwhere work on marrying microkernels and bsd systems and in fact isn't this what Darwin is all about? If you like it - there is probably a darwin mailing list. --Ugen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16:15:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.wrs.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664C237C2AD for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:15:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davidhol@windriver.com) Received: from papermill.wrs.com (papermill [147.11.48.34]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA27620; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papermill (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by papermill.wrs.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA01455; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004072315.QAA01455@papermill.wrs.com> To: Ugen Antsilevitch Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Holloway Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:09:27 EDT." <38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:15:08 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com>, Ugen Antsilevitch writes: > > >Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > >> "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote: >> >> > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > emax >> >> Excuse me gentleman, who said that ? >> Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html >> >> You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular >> design). >> The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http >> server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done? >> >> This OS uses microkernel arch. >> Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch. >> >> Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD? >> >> PS: I never seen anything fast and reliable like that. > >Ugh...isn't it obvious by now that this is a shameless pitch for QNX... >It is sad that people here actually respond to this sort of thing. >"How come you guys are not like Linux?" questions should have >developed some tolerance in you.. > >QNX is great and all the power to it. This is FreeBSD and it is unix and BSD >and as such it is what it is. If it would take a QNX approach then it would no >t be >FreeBSD but something rather different. Thats the answer... > >I am sure some people somwhere work on marrying microkernels and bsd systems >and in fact isn't this what Darwin is all about? If you like it - there is pro >bably a >darwin mailing list. >--Ugen > Yeah I wouldn't want to have to retaliate with shameless plugs of vxWorks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16:19:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C397437B691 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karsten@rohrbach.de) Received: (qmail 91982 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Apr 2000 23:19:20 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:19:20 +0200 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Jesper Skriver Cc: Patrick Gardella , Lloyd Rennie , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mirror requirements Message-ID: <20000408011920.B90134@rohrbach.de> Reply-To: karsten@rohrbach.de References: <38E367E2.2FC11B7C@whetstonelogic.com> <20000330171143.A48758@skriver.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000330171143.A48758@skriver.dk>; from jesper@skriver.dk on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:11:43PM +0200 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 X-Sender: karsten@rohrbach.de Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG rohrbach@filepile:/ftp/.vol/vol1$ du -sk FreeBSD 22975903 FreeBSD rohrbach@filepile:/ftp/.vol/vol1$ date Sat Apr 8 01:17:30 CEST 2000 ...eek! /k Jesper Skriver(jesper@skriver.dk)@Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:11:43PM +0200: > On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 09:42:42AM -0500, Patrick Gardella wrote: > > Lloyd Rennie wrote: > > > > > > I sent this to -questions, but have received no reply. Sorry to bug > > > y'all, but... > > > > > > What are the hardware and bandwidth requirements to maintain a full > > > FreeBSD mirror site? > > > > Having asked this before, I can try to answer it... > > > > Hardware: Disk space to hold the parts you want to mirror. Are you > > looking to be just an FTP mirror, a WWW mirror (about 8 megs), a CVSUP > > mirror, or some combination of all of these? I would say that a safe > > bet would be an 8 gig HD for all of them. > > I keep a partial ftp mirror, and it barely fits 20 GB ... > > > /Jesper > > -- > Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456 > Work: Network manager @ AS3292 (Tele Danmark DataNetworks) > Private: Geek @ AS2109 (A much smaller network ;-) > > One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, > One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- > Hackers do it with all sorts of characters. http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de (NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16:29: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 42D0837C204 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karsten@rohrbach.de) Received: (qmail 92158 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Apr 2000 23:28:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:28:59 +0200 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Cejka Rudolf , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, markm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror Message-ID: <20000408012859.C90134@rohrbach.de> Reply-To: karsten@rohrbach.de References: <20000407094813.A51749@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:38:05AM -0700 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 X-Sender: karsten@rohrbach.de Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway(kris@FreeBSD.ORG)@Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:38:05AM -0700: > > Mark Murray would know :-) > > I think there's a lot of stale cruft on ftp.internat.freebsd.org which > doesn't need to be mirrored - Mark could probably tell us all which bits > are suitable for mirroring (this should be documented somewhere for > posterity) > mirroring of all that stuff should be migrated to rsync(1), since this implicitly defines (in terms of standard archive'/distribution handling) a structured "package" like layout, so we would have several collections (freebsd-ftp/ freebsd-www/ freebsd-crypto-US/ freebsd-crypto-nonUS/ and so on...) thus, it would be easier to set up a mirror, the paths would be more standard, the updates would be better in sync (since rsync really does a good job in not just only checking if a file has a new datestamp) and the world would be a bit better ;-) opinions? /k -- > If you think sex is a pain in the ass, try a different position. http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de (NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 17: 7:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.rpi.edu (mumble.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.8.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B53037BB74; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crossd@cs.rpi.edu) Received: from cs.rpi.edu (monica.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.7.2]) by cs.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA51276; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004080007.UAA51276@cs.rpi.edu> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org, vladimir-bsd-stable@math.uic.edu, Doug@gorean.org, gallatin@cs.duke.edu, dillon@backplane.com Subject: lockd-0.2 released! Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:07:40 -0400 From: "David E. Cross" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I apologize profusely for the delay of this, but lockd-0.2 is out. The URL is: http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd/FreeBSD/lockd-0.2.tar.gz A couple of notes on this release: 1) the statd hooks to lockd are not yet done (or started) 2) you need a patched libc (for XDR64 types). I have included the xdr patch as part of this release, you need to do the following to apply it: > cd /usr/src/lib/libc/xdr > patch -- David Cross | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu Lab Director | Rm: 308 Lally Hall Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, | Ph: 518.276.2860 Department of Computer Science | Fax: 518.276.4033 I speak only for myself. | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 19:47: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mycenae.ilion.eu.org (mycenae.ilion.eu.org [203.35.206.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B56037B9B0 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrykz@ilion.eu.org) Received: from mycenae.ilion.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mycenae.ilion.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15027; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:46:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from patrykz@mycenae.ilion.eu.org) Message-Id: <200004080246.MAA15027@mycenae.ilion.eu.org> To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:33:02 GMT." <38EDD57E.56A2681B@tdnet.com.br> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:46:38 +1000 From: Patryk Zadarnowski Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote: > > > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation. > > > > Thanks, > > emax > > > Excuse me gentleman, who said that ? > Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html > > You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular > design). > The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http > server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done? > > This OS uses microkernel arch. > Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch. > > Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD? Yes. FreeBSD is based on the BSD monolithic kernel. It's precisely the ``other camp'' to the u-kernel guys (like myself.) Hence the ``BSD'' in its name. ;) Pat. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Patryk Zadarnowski University of New South Wales School of Computer Science and Engineering -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 21:23:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.rpi.edu (mumble.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.8.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E91C37B651; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:23:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crossd@cs.rpi.edu) Received: from cs.rpi.edu (monica.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.7.2]) by cs.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA57091; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004080423.AAA57091@cs.rpi.edu> To: "David E. Cross" Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org, vladimir-bsd-stable@math.uic.edu, Doug@gorean.org, gallatin@cs.duke.edu, dillon@backplane.com, crossd@cs.rpi.edu Subject: lockd-0.2a released! In-Reply-To: Message from "David E. Cross" of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:07:40 EDT." <200004080007.UAA51276@cs.rpi.edu> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 00:23:14 -0400 From: "David E. Cross" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oops, I seem to have made a mistake in the XDR patch that I included with lockd-0.2. I have re-rolled the patch with a corrected patch. As such, and to avoid confusion, I have re-labeled this as lockd-0.2a. Once again, the URL is: http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd/FreeBSD/lockd-0.2a.tar.gz Have fun. -- David Cross | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu Lab Director | Rm: 308 Lally Hall Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, | Ph: 518.276.2860 Department of Computer Science | Fax: 518.276.4033 I speak only for myself. | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 22: 8:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F406837B931 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24990; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:08:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38EEBED5.F2D245D@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:08:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Holloway Cc: Ugen Antsilevitch , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? References: <200004072315.QAA01455@papermill.wrs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Holloway wrote: > > In message <38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com>, Ugen Antsilevitch writes: > > > >Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > > > >QNX is great and all the power to it. This is FreeBSD and it is unix and BSD > >and as such it is what it is. If it would take a QNX approach then it would > >not be FreeBSD but something rather different. Thats the answer... > > Yeah I wouldn't want to have to retaliate with > shameless plugs of vxWorks. Because that might cause me to go off on a rant about how inappropriate both are for making well-behaved internet servers. Portability my ass. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 22:44:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.3.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA0C37BB2D for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:44:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org (CPE-144-132-171-71.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.171.71]) by sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00403 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:44:50 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 93222 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Apr 2000 05:44:52 -0000 From: "Andrew Reilly" Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:44:52 +1000 To: Gustavo V G C Rios Cc: Nick Sayer , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ? Message-ID: <20000408154451.A45267@gurney.reilly.home> References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> <38EE0536.F2305A40@quack.kfu.com> <38EDDBC4.51F2414D@tdnet.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38EDDBC4.51F2414D@tdnet.com.br> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:59:48PM +0000, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote: > Yeah! I had started to study OS (UNIX Internals: the new frontiers) > internals. That book tell the same about microkernel, but when i > downloaded QNX demo disk i got confused. Another oldie-but-goodie OS book is Andrew Tannenbaum's "Modern Operating Systems". > If microkernel has such a drawnbacks, why QNX is so fast and reliable? Well, it's a bit faster, perhaps, because QNX doesn't do VM. So it doesn't swap or page, and probably gets more help from the processor for memory space management. All processes reside in memory all the time. The QNX demo floppy, obviously, runs entirely out of main memory, and doesn't even contain disk subsystem drivers. It's reliable (to the extent that it is) because it's another 20-year-old operating system that's been worked on continuously by clue-posessing individuals, in real-world situations. > PS: I am just a beginner, so, don't take me wrong. The fact is that i > am really confused about what books say about microkernel and what in > that single demo floppy. I would be really glad to have some here to > kindly clarify it to me. Another place to look at microkernel stuff is the GNU Hurd and the L4 systems. Now: why isn't everyone doing it that way? There's certainly a historical factor involved, but basically, the modern Unix kernel pretty much does what you want an operating system to do: it provides a clean model of the hardware, and support for processes that can exist in separate memory spaces and communicate with each other. About the only serious difference is that in Unix, file systems tend to live in the kernel and in microkernels they live outside. There are some pretty compelling performance reasons to keep all of that in the "OS" bucket. There has been enough development effort and testing to cope with the reliability issues. Once you get outside of filesystems, microkernel and monolithic systems are all the same: the other services are provided by daemons/processes of various sorts. When you look at them from far enough away, all kernels are small. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 1:22: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.128.1.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1881437B535 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zdenek@mediaone.net) Received: from funex (zdenek.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.127.20]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA11709 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 04:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004080821.EAA11709@chmls06.mediaone.net> X-Sender: zdenek@pop.ne.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 05:21:06 -0400 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Zdenek Radouch Subject: postscript printer handshake problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Problem: I don't know how to configure the spooler to properly handshake with a postscript printer (via standard parallel port). Background: I am trying to improve printer connectivity in my wife's graphic design office. The basic idea I had was to take the direct-attached postscript printers that currently have direct connections to a Mac or PC, and hang them off one of the freebsd machines I have, thus effectively converting the printers to network printers. I did that, and very quickly found out that it does not quite work. Details and my theory: It is not exactly clear to me what's happening since the behavior is complex and the errors are not simply obvious. Additionally, the Windows and Mac postscript drivers seems to have their own issues. some of the problems I see are: [Note that most of the files do get printed OK] 1) some files leave the printer in a busy state (this does not happen with a short postscript test code. This suggests missing Ctrl-D handshake from the spooler. 2) appending Ctrl-D to the files that leave the printer busy causes an extra page to be ejected/printed. Can't explain this. 3) Some jobs result in a extra page printed with the text "%%EOF" on it. I can't understand how the interpreter can let this (DCS comment) through. 4) Some jobs do not get interpreted - the printer spews the postscript source code - very annoying since a 20MB postscript source for a two-page ad with graphics can make the printer waste an entire box of paper. This may be related to 3) above - the printer clearly has a mode to pass ASCII through and print it without any interpretation - the question is how does this happen to a proper postscript source file. It looks like there are at least two problems: 1) the freebsd spooler does not handshake properly with the printer I have been quite ignorant of the lpr subsystem, so I have no idea how it is supposed to work, but based on my understanding of postscript (feel free to correct me), I'd expect the following: The spooler should examine the first couple bytes of the job file and look for the DSC pattern (%!) and use that to decide whether or not the printer is a postscript printer. For a non postscript printer it can simply dump the job file in the printer. When talking to a postscript printer (really a postscript interpreter), the spooler has to send Ctrl-D to indicate the end of the job - the interpreter uses that to reset its current environment upon completion of the current job, then sends Ctrl-D back to the spooler to indicate that the next job can be started. Without the Ctrl-D the printer will assume that more pages are coming and either time out, or possibly fail the subsequent postscript processing because code from the previous job may still sit on the interpreters stack. 2) The windows driver clearly violates the DSC by inserting Ctrl-D at the end of the postscript file (But given the other problems I can see why they'd do that). I'd really appreciate if someone who is familiar with the bsd spooler could comment on this. I am interested in how the spooler code currently works when it comes to handshaking with postscript printers. Of course, any other pointers are welcome; if this is known not to work, let me know, too. (BTW, the machine with the spooler runs freebsd 3.4 and the printer sits on /dev/lpt0. Also, the Mac and Windows boxes can print without any problems when they are attached directly and using their native spoolers.) Please respond to me directly at zdenek@mediaone.net, I don't read this mailing list. Thanks. -Zdenek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 4:19:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (grimreaper.grondar.za [196.7.18.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACA637B5C6; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 04:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02473; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:19:57 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200004081119.NAA02473@grimreaper.grondar.za> To: karsten@rohrbach.de Cc: Kris Kennaway , Cejka Rudolf , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, markm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror References: <20000408012859.C90134@rohrbach.de> In-Reply-To: <20000408012859.C90134@rohrbach.de> ; from "Karsten W. Rohrbach" "Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:28:59 +0200." Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:19:57 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Mark Murray would know :-) > > > > I think there's a lot of stale cruft on ftp.internat.freebsd.org which > > doesn't need to be mirrored - Mark could probably tell us all which bits > > are suitable for mirroring (this should be documented somewhere for > > posterity) Mostly packages and distfiles. > > mirroring of all that stuff should be migrated to rsync(1), since this > implicitly defines (in terms of standard archive'/distribution handling) > a structured "package" like layout, so we would have several collections > (freebsd-ftp/ freebsd-www/ freebsd-crypto-US/ freebsd-crypto-nonUS/ and > so on...) > thus, it would be easier to set up a mirror, the paths would be more > standard, the updates would be better in sync (since rsync really does a > good job in not just only checking if a file has a new datestamp) and > the world would be a bit better ;-) > I could do this. What arre the setup concerns? M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 5:30:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from linux.ssc.nsu.ru (linux.ssc.nsu.ru [193.124.219.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BF0237B6CC for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru) Received: (qmail 15745 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 12:28:39 -0000 Received: from inet.ssc.nsu.ru (62.76.110.12) by hub.freebsd.org with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 12:28:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (danfe@localhost) by inet.ssc.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22848 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:28:13 +0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:28:13 +0700 (NOVST) From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except USA_RESIDENT. So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5 system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5. Thank you. Cheers, /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 5:53:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pawn.primelocation.net (pawn.primelocation.net [205.161.238.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492DE37B65D for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:52:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdf.lists@fxp.org) Received: by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix, from userid 1016) id 27AE99B17; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED8BBA1E; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:52:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" X-Sender: cdf.lists@pawn.primelocation.net To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > Hello! > > I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and > libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based > (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked > at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except > USA_RESIDENT. > > So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5 > system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5. > Using: #NODESCRYPTLINKS=true # do not replace libcrypt -> libscrypt links will ensure your libcrypt is not linked to the des-based libcrypt (libdescrypt). ----- Chris D. Faulhaber - jedgar@fxp.org - jedgar@FreeBSD.org -------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD: The Power To Serve - http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:15:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from linux.ssc.nsu.ru (linux.ssc.nsu.ru [193.124.219.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B98A437B72D for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru) Received: (qmail 15804 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 13:14:04 -0000 Received: from inet.ssc.nsu.ru (62.76.110.12) by hub.freebsd.org with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 13:14:04 -0000 Received: from localhost (danfe@localhost) by inet.ssc.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23073; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:13:08 +0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:13:08 +0700 (NOVST) From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote: > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > > > Hello! > > > > I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and > > libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based > > (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked > > at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except > > USA_RESIDENT. > > > > So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5 > > system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5. > > > > Using: > > #NODESCRYPTLINKS=true # do not replace libcrypt -> libscrypt links > > will ensure your libcrypt is not linked to the des-based libcrypt > (libdescrypt). > But, AFAIUC, this deals only with libraries. And how about binary executables in /bin, /sbin (e.g., init)? Cheers, /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+ E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+ t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what? Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own? Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:18:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F217937B6CA; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:18:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: "R.I.Pienaar" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: make release + X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 31-Jan-00 R.I.Pienaar wrote: > > how do i incorporate the XFree stuff into a freebsd release so that > > it is in > > acceptable format for sysinstall? > > Download the binary packages from XFree86.org.. > > Someone was working on making the port produce tarballs that look like > the XFree86 ones but I don't know how far that got. Sorry for just seeing this message... it was I who was doing this, and I completed it some time before 4.0-RELEASE. If someone's interested, I'll give it a check and post it. > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:20:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pawn.primelocation.net (pawn.primelocation.net [205.161.238.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F3E37B8F5 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdf.lists@fxp.org) Received: by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix, from userid 1016) id 72D969B17; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692D6BA1E; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" X-Sender: cdf.lists@pawn.primelocation.net To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote: > > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and > > > libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based > > > (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked > > > at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except > > > USA_RESIDENT. > > > > > > So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5 > > > system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5. > > > > > > > Using: > > > > #NODESCRYPTLINKS=true # do not replace libcrypt -> libscrypt links > > > > will ensure your libcrypt is not linked to the des-based libcrypt > > (libdescrypt). > > > > But, AFAIUC, this deals only with libraries. And how about binary > executables in /bin, /sbin (e.g., init)? > If a program links with libcrypt and libcrypt is linked to libscrypt (MD5 version) instead of libdescrypt (DES version), then that program will use MD5. ----- Chris D. Faulhaber - jedgar@fxp.org - jedgar@FreeBSD.org -------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD: The Power To Serve - http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:34:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from linux.ssc.nsu.ru (linux.ssc.nsu.ru [193.124.219.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D14337B980 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru) Received: (qmail 15843 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 13:30:44 -0000 Received: from inet.ssc.nsu.ru (62.76.110.12) by hub.freebsd.org with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 13:30:44 -0000 Received: from localhost (danfe@localhost) by inet.ssc.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23224; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:30:20 +0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:30:20 +0700 (NOVST) From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote: > If a program links with libcrypt and libcrypt is linked to libscrypt (MD5 > version) instead of libdescrypt (DES version), then that program will use > MD5. > Got it. Thanks. Cheers, /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 7:26:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from linux.ssc.nsu.ru (linux.ssc.nsu.ru [193.124.219.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFE8137B674 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru) Received: (qmail 15927 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 14:25:44 -0000 Received: from inet.ssc.nsu.ru (62.76.110.12) by hub.freebsd.org with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 14:25:44 -0000 Received: from localhost (danfe@localhost) by inet.ssc.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23986 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:25:16 +0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:25:16 +0700 (NOVST) From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math. I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box, and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve? Of course, I could just man gcc and turn every option I find useful, but I don't have _that_ much experience with gcc as (I am sure) certain people on this maillist have. So not to run into any problems in the future caused by my 'overoptimized' system, I would like to get deep and full answer here. Thank you in advance. System is: genuine intel Pentium 200 MMX proc, 64M memory, FreeBSD 4.0-R P.S. Please cc me directly, since I am not the member of this list. Cheers, /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+ E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+ t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what? Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own? Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 7:31:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news1.newsindex.com (news1.newsindex.com [209.166.166.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B7A37B54C for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 07:31:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from speck@news1.newsindex.com) Received: from localhost (speck@localhost) by news1.newsindex.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29721 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:48:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Peck To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am having a bizarre problem with a system on FreeBSD. The system consists of a server who forks its clients. When the clients are forked, they try to connect to the server and get information. Unfortunately when they fork off (fork/execlp), they say they connected to server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not via fork/execlp) everything works just fine. This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can help me with this? Sean Sean Peck News Index -- The original News Only Search Engine. http://www.newsindex.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 8: 8: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B5137B54C for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.134.23]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAA24; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:05:55 -0400 Message-ID: <38EF4B3E.E5655F9F@asme.org> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:07:42 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FWIW, I understand that they carry pgcc (http://www.goof.com) which may be very risky under Linux. Linus doesn't even recommend the latest gcc because he likes to keep his kernel dependent on the old (non-standard) features. Look in the archives, I recall someone benchmarked the new gcc on this list. the FAQ on goof.com is also interesting if you want to try out pgcc on FreeBSD. cheers, Pedro. "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" wrote: > > Hi! > > AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for > Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization > flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math. > > I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box, > and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there > any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to > make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve? > > Of course, I could just man gcc and turn every option I find useful, but I > don't have _that_ much experience with gcc as (I am sure) certain people > on this maillist have. So not to run into any problems in the future > caused by my 'overoptimized' system, I would like to get deep and full > answer here. Thank you in advance. > > System is: genuine intel Pentium 200 MMX proc, 64M memory, FreeBSD 4.0-R > > P.S. Please cc me directly, since I am not the member of this list. > > Cheers, > > /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ > /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ > /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ > /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ > /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ > > [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake] > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.12 > GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+ > E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+ > t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what? > > Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own? > > Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 8:19: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from msk2.mail.ru (mx2.mail.ru [194.67.23.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6371D37BABC for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kabaev@mail.ru) Received: from h0050da20495b.ne.mediaone.net ([24.147.104.88] helo=kan.ne.mediaone.net) by msk2.mail.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #173) id 12dx4p-000L49-00; Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:23:11 +0400 Received: (from kan@localhost) by kan.ne.mediaone.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01200; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:18:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kan) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:18:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Subject: RE: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 M Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I doubt Mandrake gets any significant performance boost from using gcc with optimisation levels beyond -O. They just use this "super optimised" to stand out from all other Linux crowd rather than for any practical purpose. It has been reported several times that optimisation levels O2 ang higher are buggy and known to generate wrong code on several occasions. This was true for gcc 2.7.2.3 and it is still true for gcc 2.95.2. In other words, your attempt to squeese last drop of performance from your system in this way is futile :). The gain you will get is just not worth associated risks. On 08-Apr-00 Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > Hi! > > AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for > Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization > flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math. > > I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box, > and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there > any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to > make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve? > > Of course, I could just man gcc and turn every option I find useful, but I > don't have _that_ much experience with gcc as (I am sure) certain people > on this maillist have. So not to run into any problems in the future > caused by my 'overoptimized' system, I would like to get deep and full > answer here. Thank you in advance. > > System is: genuine intel Pentium 200 MMX proc, 64M memory, FreeBSD 4.0-R > > P.S. Please cc me directly, since I am not the member of this list. > > > Cheers, > > /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */ > /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */ > /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */ > /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */ > /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */ > > [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake] > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.12 > GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+ > E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+ > t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what? > > Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own? > > Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Alexander N. Kabaev Date: 08-Apr-00 Time: 11:07:16 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 8:21: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163A937B7B2 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e38FlBc26231; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:47:11 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Sean Peck Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug? Message-ID: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from speck@news1.newsindex.com on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 10:48:56AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Sean Peck [000408 07:58] wrote: > > I am having a bizarre problem with a system on FreeBSD. > > The system consists of a server who forks its clients. > When the clients are forked, they try to connect to the server and get > information. Unfortunately when they fork off (fork/execlp), they say > they connected to > server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the > connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not > via fork/execlp) everything works just fine. > > This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I > assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can > help me with this? Without some example code to demostrate the problem there's not much we can do to address this. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 9:21:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news1.newsindex.com (news1.newsindex.com [209.166.166.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904C637B940 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from speck@news1.newsindex.com) Received: from localhost (speck@localhost) by news1.newsindex.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01074; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:38:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Peck To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug? In-Reply-To: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred, Here is the code being used. This is the Server Code, xxx are the IP of box, yyy is port this server is listening too passed to the client user_port = socket_config(xxxx); while (y<1){ if(!fork()){ printf("Starting Client %d\n",getpid()); close(user_port); execlp("./client","client","XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX","YYYY",NULL); printf("Ending forked %d\n",xxx); exit(0); } y++; } ========================================================================================= This is the client main sleep(10); //this is just to make sure that the server is ready to // listen added for tracing and testing of this bug if(argc<3){printf("Usage get host port\n");exit(0);} strcpy(localhostname,argv[1]); port1 = atoi(argv[2]); printf("Connectiong to %s port %d\n",localhostname,port1); signal(SIGPIPE,SIG_IGN); result=10; printf("GETTING PAGE FROM SERVER\n"); while((strcmp(buf,"NONE")!=0)&&(result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){ memset(buf,0,sizeof(buf)); result=10; timeout=0; while((result !=1)&&(result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){ result = tcp_get_conn(localhostname,port1,10,&sock1); if(result==TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT){timeout++;} } printf("result %d\n",result); //This is coming back 1 in both the // fork/execlp and in direct from shell // running printf("ERRNO %d\n",errno); // this is coming back 36 in both shell and // fork/execlp if ((result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){ write(sock1,"GIMME\n",6); bufp=buf; //Does not appeart to be blocking while((size=read(sock1, bufp, (5000-(bufp-buf))))>0){ printf("size %d\n",size); bufp+=size; } } close(sock1); printf("GOT INFO\n"); if(timeout==10){strcpy(buf,"NONE");} printf("GOT BUF: %s\n",buf); // In fork this comes back with Empty // string, but has valid data if // run seperately. When forked, Server // just stays in select state, never // gets any connections, but clients // execute as if they have one. ================================================================================= Here is the tcp_get_connection() code /* * given a HOST name and service PORT number, return connected TCP * socket to the requested service at the requested host. It will * timeout after SECS (if < 0 then hang). Passes back socket in SOCKP * and returns error codes. */ /* tcp_get_conn return codes */ #define TCP_NO_ERROR 1 /* no error */ #define TCP_NOT_FOUND 2 /* host not found */ #define TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE 3 /* socket create failure */ #define TCP_CONNECT_ERROR 4 /* socket connect error */ #define TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT 5 /* socket connect timeout */ #define TCP_CONNECT_NONE 6 /* socket didn't connect */ #define TCP_TRANSFER_ERROR 7 /* read/write error */ EXPORT int tcp_get_conn(const char * host, const int port, const int secs, int * sockp) { struct sockaddr_in sadr; struct hostent *hostp; struct timeval timeout, *timeoutp; fd_set fds; char **addrp, okay = 0; int sock, ret; #ifdef __osf__ struct itimerval timer; #endif /* locate host */ hostp = gethostbyname(host); if (hostp == NULL) return TCP_NOT_FOUND; /* setup internet port */ sadr.sin_family = (u_short)AF_INET; sadr.sin_port = htons(port); sock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, IPPROTO_TCP); if (sock < 0) return TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE; #ifndef __osf__ /* make the fd non-blocking */ (void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) | O_NONBLOCK); #endif if (secs < 0) timeoutp = 0L; else timeoutp = &timeout; FD_ZERO(&fds); /* try to connect to the remote server */ for (addrp = hostp->h_addr_list; *addrp != NULL; addrp++) { (void)memcpy((void *)&sadr.sin_addr, *addrp, sizeof(sadr.sin_addr)); #ifdef __osf__ /* set the timer */ timer.it_interval = timeout; setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL); (void)signal(SIGALRM, catch_alarm); alarm_caught = FALSE; #endif /* connect or start the connection */ ret = connect(sock, (void *)&sadr, sizeof(sadr)); #ifdef __osf__ /* disable the timer */ timer.it_value.tv_sec = 0; timer.it_value.tv_usec = 0; setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL); (void)signal(SIGALRM, SIG_IGN); #endif if (ret == 0) { okay = 1; break; } #ifdef __osf__ (void)close(sock); if (alarm_caught) return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT; else return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR; #endif /* not waiting for connection? */ if (errno != EINPROGRESS && errno != EWOULDBLOCK) { /* connection refused? */ if (errno == ECONNREFUSED) continue; /* otherwise error */ (void)close(sock); return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR; } for (;;) { FD_SET(sock, &fds); if (secs >= 0) { timeout.tv_sec = secs; timeout.tv_usec = 0; } ret = select(sock + 1, 0L, &fds, 0L, timeoutp); if (ret > 0 && FD_ISSET(sock, &fds)) { okay = 1; break; } if (ret == 0) { (void)close(sock); return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT; } if (ret < 0 && errno != EINTR) { (void)close(sock); return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR; } } if (okay) break; } /* connection made? */ if (okay) { #ifndef __osf__ /* turn off non-blocking */ (void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) & ~O_NONBLOCK); #endif *sockp = sock; return TCP_NO_ERROR; } (void)close(sock); return TCP_CONNECT_NONE; } Sean Peck News Index -- The original News Only Search Engine. http://www.newsindex.com/ On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Sean Peck [000408 07:58] wrote: > > > > I am having a bizarre problem with a system on FreeBSD. > > > > The system consists of a server who forks its clients. > > When the clients are forked, they try to connect to the server and get > > information. Unfortunately when they fork off (fork/execlp), they say > > they connected to > > server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the > > connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not > > via fork/execlp) everything works just fine. > > > > This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I > > assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can > > help me with this? > > Without some example code to demostrate the problem there's not much > we can do to address this. > > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 10: 5:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D26437B6EE for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e38HVZW28954; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:31:35 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Sean Peck Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug? Message-ID: <20000408103135.Z4381@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from speck@news1.newsindex.com on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:38:20PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Sean Peck [000408 09:47] wrote: > Alfred, > > Here is the code being used. ew. :P There seems to be some problems in your tcp connect library... > while((result !=1)&&(result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){ > result = tcp_get_conn(localhostname,port1,10,&sock1); > if(result==TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT){timeout++;} > } > printf("result %d\n",result); //This is coming back 1 in both the > // fork/execlp and in direct from shell > // running > printf("ERRNO %d\n",errno); // this is coming back 36 in both shell and > // fork/execlp 36 is EINPROGRESS, somehow your connect function isn't handling non-blocking connects properly. > Here is the tcp_get_connection() code > > /* > * given a HOST name and service PORT number, return connected TCP > * socket to the requested service at the requested host. It will > * timeout after SECS (if < 0 then hang). Passes back socket in SOCKP > * and returns error codes. > */ > > /* tcp_get_conn return codes */ > #define TCP_NO_ERROR 1 /* no error */ > #define TCP_NOT_FOUND 2 /* host not found */ > #define TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE 3 /* socket create failure > */ > #define TCP_CONNECT_ERROR 4 /* socket connect error */ > #define TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT 5 /* socket connect timeout > */ > #define TCP_CONNECT_NONE 6 /* socket didn't connect > */ > #define TCP_TRANSFER_ERROR 7 /* read/write error */ > > EXPORT int tcp_get_conn(const char * host, const int port, > const int secs, int * sockp) > { > struct sockaddr_in sadr; > struct hostent *hostp; > struct timeval timeout, *timeoutp; > fd_set fds; > char **addrp, okay = 0; > int sock, ret; > #ifdef __osf__ > struct itimerval timer; > #endif > > /* locate host */ > hostp = gethostbyname(host); > if (hostp == NULL) > return TCP_NOT_FOUND; > > /* setup internet port */ > sadr.sin_family = (u_short)AF_INET; > sadr.sin_port = htons(port); > > sock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, IPPROTO_TCP); > if (sock < 0) > return TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE; > > #ifndef __osf__ > /* make the fd non-blocking */ > (void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) | O_NONBLOCK); > #endif > > if (secs < 0) > timeoutp = 0L; > else > timeoutp = &timeout; > FD_ZERO(&fds); > > /* try to connect to the remote server */ > for (addrp = hostp->h_addr_list; *addrp != NULL; addrp++) { > (void)memcpy((void *)&sadr.sin_addr, *addrp, sizeof(sadr.sin_addr)); > > #ifdef __osf__ > /* set the timer */ > timer.it_interval = timeout; > setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL); > (void)signal(SIGALRM, catch_alarm); > alarm_caught = FALSE; > #endif > > /* connect or start the connection */ > ret = connect(sock, (void *)&sadr, sizeof(sadr)); > > #ifdef __osf__ > /* disable the timer */ > timer.it_value.tv_sec = 0; > timer.it_value.tv_usec = 0; > setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL); > (void)signal(SIGALRM, SIG_IGN); > #endif > > if (ret == 0) { > okay = 1; > break; > } > > #ifdef __osf__ > (void)close(sock); > > if (alarm_caught) > return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT; > else > return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR; > #endif > > /* not waiting for connection? */ > > if (errno != EINPROGRESS && errno != EWOULDBLOCK) { > /* connection refused? */ > > if (errno == ECONNREFUSED) > continue; > > /* otherwise error */ > (void)close(sock); > return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR; > } > > for (;;) { FD_ZERO here? > FD_SET(sock, &fds); > if (secs >= 0) { > timeout.tv_sec = secs; > timeout.tv_usec = 0; > } > > ret = select(sock + 1, 0L, &fds, 0L, timeoutp); 0L -> NULL please :) > if (ret > 0 && FD_ISSET(sock, &fds)) { > okay = 1; > break; > } > if (ret == 0) { > (void)close(sock); > return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT; > } > if (ret < 0 && errno != EINTR) { > (void)close(sock); > return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR; > } > } > > if (okay) > break; > } > > /* connection made? */ > if (okay) { > #ifndef __osf__ > /* turn off non-blocking */ > (void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) & ~O_NONBLOCK); > #endif > *sockp = sock; > return TCP_NO_ERROR; > } > > (void)close(sock); > return TCP_CONNECT_NONE; > } > Pick up a copy of Unix Netork Programming vol I, see page 411, it has a very good example on how to do non-blocking connects properly. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 11: 1: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44CC37B58A for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D8C1CD7; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: wc.bulte@chello.nl Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" Subject: Re: bad memory patch? In-Reply-To: Message from Wilko Bulte of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:36:46 +0200." <20000407153646.A7558@yedi.wbnet> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:00:48 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000408180048.28D8C1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:31:07PM +0100, Koster, K.J. wrote: > > > > > > Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just > > > curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea" > > > > > I can think of four things real quick: > > > > 1) Disks are much slowere, and controllers actually have time to do proper > > error detection. Memory is built for raw, blind speed. The analogy that > > memory is a disk does not hold for long. > > > > 2) Testing memory is a nightmare. It's virtually impossible to test your RA M > > and guarantee it is right. If the memory test tells you your RAM is broken , > > you have to replace it. If it tells you your RAM is fine, it may or may not > > be fine. Much like a pregnancy test. :-) Thus, expecting the OS to find and > > mark bad memory for you will give you a false sense of security. > > And Real Systems [tm] use ECC memory. ;-) And Real Memory (tm) fails with transient random errors that cannot be mapped around. :-) We recently (like 2 weeks ago) had a batch of motherboards that had loading problems with 512MB of ram loaded, we'd see lots and lots of random single and multiple bit errors, never in the same place. It turns out the problem wasn't in the ram modules themselves but in the data path between the memory controller and the ram. Most errors were in the read data path which made debugging interesting as we'd see data in registers that didn't match memory in the crashdumps. *That* caused a lot of confusion (and lack of sleep). Extensive memory testing didn't detect problems as it depended on the chipset doing other things as well, including PCI IO. Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 11: 8:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from juice.shallow.net (node16229.a2000.nl [24.132.98.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA95237BB70; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@roughtrade.net) Received: from localhost (joshua@localhost) by juice.shallow.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18275; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:08:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joshua@roughtrade.net) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:08:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Joshua Goodall X-Sender: joshua@juice.shallow.net To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Kris Kennaway , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror In-Reply-To: <20000406134812.J13677@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I can't get there. Latency & packetloss too high from my cable modem in NL. Amusingly the route goes through the US :) - J On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:47:16PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > I guess the thing to do is to make sure they have the same directory > > structure as internat though, so people can simply substitute e.g. > > ftp2.internat.freebsd.org for something which tries to fetch(1) from > > internat. > > Can someone that can actually get into ftp.internat.freebsd.org compare > them? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 12:13:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AF237B95B for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA12113; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004081913.MAA12113@apollo.backplane.com> To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Sean Peck , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug? References: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> they connected to :> server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the :> connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not :> via fork/execlp) everything works just fine. :> :> This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I :> assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can :> help me with this? : :Without some example code to demostrate the problem there's not much :we can do to address this. : This kinda sounds like a case where the server process has its listen descriptor and when it fork/exec's the child it is either not setting the close-on-exec flag for the descriptor, or the child is not closing the descriptor. Since this is an exec, I'll bet the problem is that the server is not setting the close-on-exec flag for the descriptor. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 14:18:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE62937B7AC; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA74181; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for > Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization > flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math. Can you say "gimmick"? :-) gcc often produces demonstrably broken code for optimisation levels higher than -O. Probably the only useful and safe option apart from -O is the -march=pentium/pentiumpro/pentiumii/etc option for using processor-specific opcodes and instruction scheduling. By all means, compile your own system the way you want, but be sure to recompile with nothing but -O before submitting any bug reports. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 14:34:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5846B37B7ED; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA12743; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004082134.OAA12743@apollo.backplane.com> To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: : :> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for :> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization :> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math. : :Can you say "gimmick"? :-) gcc often produces demonstrably broken code for :optimisation levels higher than -O. : :Probably the only useful and safe option apart from -O is the :-march=pentium/pentiumpro/pentiumii/etc option for using :processor-specific opcodes and instruction scheduling. :Kris I use -Os for everything. I wouldn't bother with anything else. Someone ran a bunch of benchmarks with various gcc/egcs options a while back and, frankly, the top half dozen combinations were so close to each other performance-wise that it just didn't matter. -Os was in that group, but also produced significantly smaller binaries. I wouldn't touch the -march stuff at all, nor would I use -O3 (which tries to inline standard static functions verses -O2) - that's useless on IA32 because call/returns are very fast (I had an argument with John Dyson about call/return overhead verses an L1 cache miss and we ran a bunch of timings. I lost the argument :-) call/return won the race handily). -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 15: 6:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FA837B544; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (root@rac3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.143]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14020; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA10875; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10871; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:05:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac3.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:05:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Kris Kennaway , "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX In-Reply-To: <200004082134.OAA12743@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Why exactly whould you not touch the -march options? I have had no problems using them, and my system (5.0-CURRENT) seems a little faster with -march=i686. I could be wrong though as I havn't done any exact tests... it just seems a bit more responsive.. ================================================================= | Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. | | Unix Systems Administrator | ICQ #: 24767726 | | and student at The | AIM: muythaibxr | | The University of Maryland, | Website: (Under Construction) | | College Park. | http://www.wam.umd.edu/~culverk/| ================================================================= On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote: > :On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > : > :> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for > :> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization > :> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math. > : > :Can you say "gimmick"? :-) gcc often produces demonstrably broken code for > :optimisation levels higher than -O. > : > :Probably the only useful and safe option apart from -O is the > :-march=pentium/pentiumpro/pentiumii/etc option for using > :processor-specific opcodes and instruction scheduling. > :Kris > > I use -Os for everything. I wouldn't bother with anything else. Someone > ran a bunch of benchmarks with various gcc/egcs options a while back > and, frankly, the top half dozen combinations were so close to each > other performance-wise that it just didn't matter. -Os was in that > group, but also produced significantly smaller binaries. > > I wouldn't touch the -march stuff at all, nor would I use -O3 (which > tries to inline standard static functions verses -O2) - that's useless > on IA32 because call/returns are very fast (I had an argument with John > Dyson about call/return overhead verses an L1 cache miss and > we ran a bunch of timings. I lost the argument :-) call/return won the > race handily). > > > -Matt > Matthew Dillon > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 15:53:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9B737B8E9; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA13069; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004082253.PAA13069@apollo.backplane.com> To: Kenneth Wayne Culver Cc: Kris Kennaway , "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :Why exactly whould you not touch the -march options? I have had no :problems using them, and my system (5.0-CURRENT) seems a little faster :with -march=i686. I could be wrong though as I havn't done any exact :tests... it just seems a bit more responsive.. : :================================================================= :| Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. | A couple of reasons, but the two main ones are: * They are still under development * They won't do what you expect (for example, the pentium optimizations often produce faster code on a PIII then the i686 optimizations) * They *have* been known to generate bad code, owing to being under constant development. * And your binaries won't necessarily be portable between manufacturers (AMD vs Intel), or performance may suffer. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 16:51:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0CFA37B710 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie) Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 9 Apr 2000 00:51:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:51:33 +0100 From: David Malone To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX Message-ID: <20000409005133.A86187@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:25:16PM +0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:25:16PM +0700, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote: > I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box, > and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there > any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to > make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve? I thought there was no floating point code in the kernel, and so -mfast-math wouldn't make any difference. I presume Linux doesn't have any FPU code in the kernel either, to save having to save/restore the registers on syscalls? David. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 19:43:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5821537B628; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from culverk@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26271; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA22538; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (culverk@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22534; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: culverk owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Wayne Culver To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Kris Kennaway , "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX In-Reply-To: <200004082253.PAA13069@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks :-) ================================================================= | Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. | | Unix Systems Administrator | ICQ #: 24767726 | | and student at The | AIM: muythaibxr | | The University of Maryland, | Website: (Under Construction) | | College Park. | http://www.wam.umd.edu/~culverk/| ================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message