From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 0:15: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254AC37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4D7Eje69631; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:14:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:14:44 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment>; from n6rej@tcsn.net on Sat, May 12, 2001 at 07:31:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 07:31:55PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > Due to the overwhelming lack of assitance I have gotten in the > freebsd-newbies, That's NOT a place to ask for how-to assistance. FreeBSD-newbies can help you find documentation or navigate the social norms and etiquette of the mailing lists. But I don't recall you asking for help there. Perhaps your mail didn't get through or something. > questions, and here, Here you asked about comparison with Red Hat, which is the sort of thread that experienced list users politely ignore. We're sick of OS comparison threads and trolls, but if you want them you can get all of the boring old (to us) repetitive discussions we've had on it by searching the mailing list archives. On FreeBSD-questions your question was difficult to understand, and therefore difficult to respond to. I've just read it three times and still can't work out what you want. It's not your fault, because in the beginning you can't know what we call things and everyone's first questions are always a bit vague. However, I have not the foggiest idea how to give you any of what you want. Nevertheless, someone did give a partial response on freebsd-questions. You could have written to freebsd-questions again saying gently "got no response, what did I do wrong? what else do you need to know?" > I am leaving FBSD. I tried several times to get assitance for my > install and each time was met with non-responses. Well if I missed it I'm not surprised if others did too. Have you got invisible ink in your printer? :-) Nah, we're just very human. > There is one person though that I will give special mention to and that is > susy. If you're referring to me, thanks, but I don't think I helped you much. On the contrary, you helped me with information about my no-name monitor, for which I am still very grateful. > But those two folks out of all of you, were the only 2 who > bothered to take any time to help someone brand new to BSD along. Once I tried another free OS. When I asked a question there, I was deluged with responses from people who spoke with great confidence, insisting they were 100% correct, and all told me different things. So I tried them sequentially, and none of them worked. When I asked again, the same thing happened. No peer review, no quality control. That is much less likely to happen with FreeBSD, because ALL questions are centralised in freebsd-questions. If someone tells you the wrong thing by mistake, someone else will follow up pretty quick with a correction. You get quality, not quantity. If you're used to getting it the other way round, it can look like you're being ignored and it feels like hell. But in the end, it's better. > If you EVER hope to make FBSD the leading Unice, I suggest you learn > how to prevent this in the future. As a person who has spent 25 yrs > in this biz I'm not easily swayed away from my endeavors, but I > refuse to pound my head against a brick wall. > Good luck to you all Some people will take that as a parting insult, but I know that you meant it in the best possible way. It is a pity more people don't stop to give feedback before they go. Thank you for taking the time to do so. > "I do not understand what I do, for what I want to do I do not do but > what I hate I do" Then don't :-) Give it another shot, and next time complain gently in the form of questions _before_ we get the chance to upset you. I believe it's not possible to write a coherent replyable email while feeling upset or annoyed. I'm copying this to freebsd-newbies, because one important role of -newbies is for discussing the community aspects of these kinds of situations and how to get over those humps as a newbie. Any responses should probably go to just one list or the other (and a cc to Troy of course), depending on the nature of its content. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 0:39:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (symphony-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B9B3B37B424 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from katinka@magestower.com) Received: (qmail 31830 invoked by uid 666); 13 May 2001 07:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO WSKATINKA) (203.59.73.35) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 13 May 2001 07:39:19 -0000 Message-ID: <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> From: "Kathy Quinlan" To: "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , Cc: References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:33:24 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Blake To: N6REJ ; Cc: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:14 PM Subject: Re: I'm leaving > On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 07:31:55PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > > Due to the overwhelming lack of assitance I have gotten in the > > freebsd-newbies, > > That's NOT a place to ask for how-to assistance. FreeBSD-newbies > can help you find documentation or navigate the social norms and > etiquette of the mailing lists. But I don't recall you asking > for help there. Perhaps your mail didn't get through or something. Hi all, I have only received 2 posts from troy, 6 and 8th of may, no others, not even the I am leaving one, and I am on both Questions and newbies, I am just wondering how many others did not receive them, if I don't get them I can not reply Regards, Kat. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 0:45:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gargoyle.apana.org.au (gargoyle-xl0.apana.org.au [210.215.3.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E266337B424; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:45:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gargoyle.apana.org.au (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4D7oJh57361; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:50:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from bryden.apana.org.au(203.3.126.129), claiming to be "kurley" via SMTP by gargoyle.apana.org.au, id smtpdzGZSn3; Sun May 13 17:50:10 2001 Message-ID: <001101c0db7f$e921a640$8683fea9@kurley> From: "Doug Young" To: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , Cc: References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:39:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have only received 2 posts from troy, 6 and 8th of may, no others, not > even the I am leaving one, and I am on both Questions and newbies, > I'm in the same boat as Kathy ..... I certainly didn't see the postings but like her I would probably would have responded to them if I thought I could provide any assistance > I am just wondering how many others did not receive them, if I don't get > them I can not reply > > Regards, > > Kat. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 3:26:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7A437B43E; Sun, 13 May 2001 03:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4DAQ2R09753 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA98879 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:26:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:26:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kathy Quinlan Cc: Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan>; from katinka@magestower.com on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:33:24PM +0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have only received 2 posts from troy, 6 and 8th of may, no others, not > even the I am leaving one, and I am on both Questions and newbies, > > I am just wondering how many others did not receive them, if I don't get > them I can not reply It seems he sent the original mail only to -advocacy. I don't know what questions he asked, but it seems to me that using FreeBSD requires a certain mindset. It is an extremely organised and methodical system, and if you ask well posed questions, you always get answers. Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. But I find that most people (even intelligent, computer-literate people) get intimidated by it, even though it works well and the ports system etc are appealing. These people have problems with the chaotic nature of linux distributions: but for some reason they find it too difficult to adjust to the FreeBSD mindset, even when it's demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about anything you can do with Linux. Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. I really don't think it's so difficult to use FreeBSD if you read the docs, but many people don't realise just how good the docs are... Just a thought. -Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 3:34:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA0D37B440; Sun, 13 May 2001 03:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 865B366C04; Sun, 13 May 2001 03:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 03:34:36 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO THE WORK! :-) Kris P.S. We do have the option to install a variety of Window Managers with support environment from sysinstall thesedays, but AFAIK these are pretty bog-standard with little to no FreeBSD customization. --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/mM6Wry0BWjoQKURAuyVAKCsEnqjE3uitGuoominBsdi+V2yNQCZAd8l MV4NRpAHQ98Vwvl/5OGyv+U= =puSG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 4:37:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin9.bigpond.com (juicer34.bigpond.com [139.134.6.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC4037B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 04:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.56]) by mailin9.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GD9V7F00.359; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:42:51 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail3.bigpond.com (Claudes-Choosy-MailRouter V2.9c 5/2106769); 13 May 2001 21:37:12 Message-ID: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:37:29 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD style HOWTO on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO THE WORK! :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 5: 4:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB8237B43E; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sparvu@alpha.hut.fi) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (sparvu@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06542; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:02:58 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:02:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Stefan Parvu To: Doug Young Cc: Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving In-Reply-To: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a good idea because: 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI Install stuff. 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than any GUI ... Take a look and analyze the SUSE installer, RedHAT, Solaris. Is far more complex than sysinstall. Just some ideas, stefan On Sun, 13 May 2001, Doug Young wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:37:29 +1000 > From: Doug Young > To: Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan > Cc: Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: I'm leaving > > I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD > style HOWTO > on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the > information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start > from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has > been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the > questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue > that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise > on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets > that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP > versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris > systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to > work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... > maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a > couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox > because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > > > > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of > the > > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web > browser, > > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > THE WORK! :-) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 5:11: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net (h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.69.46.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F8037B446; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael@tenzo.com) Received: from h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net (localhost.gv.shawcable.net [127.0.0.1]) by h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f4DCCIL01371; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael@tenzo.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Michael O'Henly" Reply-To: michael@tenzo.com To: "Doug Young" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:12:18 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> In-Reply-To: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051305121800.01335@h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm new to FreeBSD myself. I have some experience with Linux but I'm not very expert technically so I can understand N6REJ's frustration. However... I can't think of any question I've posted on freebsd.questions that hasn't been answered once it was clear that I've made some initial efforts to figure it out myself. A lot of problems that confront newbies seem enormous and unmanageable because they haven't yet started the process of chunking them down into solveable bits. Making that effort strikes me as being "the price of admission". Rather than putting valuable effort into a "default GUI install", I think Doug's suggestion of extending the documentation in this area makes a lot of sense. For instance, a gentle overview of cvsup would be really useful. I was able to figure it out from the Handbook but only because I'd read an article describing the wonder of FreeBSD makefiles. A simple conceptual overview of how packages are installed would have helped me a lot. M. On Sunday 13 May 2001 04:37, Doug Young wrote: > I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD > style HOWTO > on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the > information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start > from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has > been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the > questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue > that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise > on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets > that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP > versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris > systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to > work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... > maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a > couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox > because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > > > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of > > the > > > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web > > browser, > > > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > THE WORK! :-) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message -- Michael O'Henly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 5:37: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin1.bigpond.com (juicer13.bigpond.com [139.134.6.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356A537B446; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.51]) by mailin1.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GD9XYD00.DU3; Sun, 13 May 2001 22:42:13 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail7.bigpond.com (Claudes-Steep-n-Deep-MailRouter V2.9c 15/10842070); 13 May 2001 22:36:33 Message-ID: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Stefan Parvu" Cc: "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:36:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > good idea because: > I don't have any experience with XFree because personally I've never found a need for it, however I believe there is a demand (well considered or otherwise) for an explicit HOWTO that assists those who do wish to configure GUI . I have no doubt I could produce documentation infinitely more suited to the non-experts attempting to do this than the "official" documentation folk, however I don't know if its worth the time and trouble. ..... which is what I'll decide over the next day or two based on feedback to this thread > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > Install stuff. > I wish everything in life was as easy as a Solaris / SCO CDE install !! Its obviously "possible" to build a unix GUI installer that works properly so whats wrong with the XFree one anyway that it causes so much trouble for so many people ?? Even if its too much to expect from open source developers its gotta be possible to document the process properly (meaning explicitly) so that non-expert users with the "correct" hardware can get some sort of X running without tearing hair out & with reasonable resolution etc > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. > No argument about that .... the command line setup certainly does the job extremely well for those using the operating system purely as a server, but there is a whole bunch of people out there who believe the main purpose of computers is to run stuff like Doom / Quake / whatever or to play MP3s. I wish you the best of British luck in convincing these people to do whatever they want using purely command line. If this was taken to its logical extreme one could ask whats the point of cluttering up the FreeBSD CDs with all the XFree 3.x / XFree 4.x / KDE / Gnome / etc stuff if its not expected that anyone will actually want to use the stuff ?? Maybe someone should suggest that FreeBSD drop all pretensions about having GUI support ?? > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? > Me ?? ..... possibly / probably none, although I have stumbled across the odd application that claimed to have some form of config GUI. I've never been able to investigate those things so it might be worth the effort sometime. One never knows though, I might even use a GUI FreeBSD / Netscape system instead of a Solaris one for browsing if it was possible to configure the thing without having to engage in battle for weeks :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 6: 6:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin1.bigpond.com (juicer13.bigpond.com [139.134.6.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD7C37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.54]) by mailin1.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GD9ZB600.6X9; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:11:30 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail6.bigpond.com (Claudes-Famous-MailRouter V2.9c 11/10307518); 13 May 2001 23:05:50 Message-ID: <017301c0dbad$7a80f230$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: , "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> <01051305121800.01335@h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:06:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Rather than putting valuable effort into a "default GUI install", I think > Doug's suggestion of extending the documentation in this area makes a lot of > sense. For instance, a gentle overview of cvsup would be really useful. I was > able to figure it out from the Handbook but only because I'd read an article > describing the wonder of FreeBSD makefiles. A simple conceptual overview of > how packages are installed would have helped me a lot. > As I've said countless times, "simple conceptual overviews" that include ALL the necessary information in one place help heaps of users. However I'm certain that the quickest & probably most efficient way to achieve this is for some non-expert to produce the stuff.. It seems many experts are too busy to produce explicit docs / don't perceive a need to be explicit / fail to comprehend the utter confusion caused to newbies by most man pages. OK so the non-expert can't possibly know enough to explain EVERYTHING, but thats not the issue here. Newbies rarely have the need / desire / ability to do anything real tricky ... in the vast majority of cases, all thats needed is a mere fraction of the info available from Greg Lehey's book, the Handbook, mailing list archives, etc, but with relevant background / assumed prior knowledge / etc, all readily available in a step_by_step format .... lots of visuals don't go astray either. I believe I've done a reasonable job of this stuff as far as I've gone with the Pedantic FreeBSD ... at least the hundreds of complimentary emails I've received over the past year would suggest that it fills a need that other stuff doesn't. Trouble is it needs a heap more work done to include info on ADSL PPPoE / broadband cable / X / CVSUP / etc etc & time is, as always, at a premium. Such is life I guess ...... like I've always said "whats the use complaining .... nobody takes any notice :)" > M. > > On Sunday 13 May 2001 04:37, Doug Young wrote: > > I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD > > style HOWTO > > on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the > > information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start > > from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has > > been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the > > questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue > > that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise > > on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets > > that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP > > versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris > > systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to > > work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... > > maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a > > couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox > > because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > > > > > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of > > > > the > > > > > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web > > > > browser, > > > > > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > > > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > > THE WORK! :-) > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > -- > Michael O'Henly > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 6:12:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1068F37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4DDB0x19122; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:11:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 07:10:23 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. Both KDE and gnome are complex, moving targets that don't always install. Each has dozens of dependencies. One thing I would do is to add lynx to the base install so that the HTML docs option in sysinstall no longer requires a package add. At the very least, we need to ensure that lynx is always on the first CD, so it can be found without errors. GUI would be a lot easier if we had better video card probes, but that's always going to be another very fast-moving target. I think the present system of /stand/sysinstall works well except for a very few problems: * Newbie users need a clue as to WHICH CD each package is on. I think adding one screen that shows the locations of the entire package collection in a given release would be very appropriate. * Add lynx, as I said above. * remove gnome and KDE from the desktop config or separate them into a distinct category with clear warnings. On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages after we've started tracking STABLE. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 6:49:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin8.bigpond.com (juicer39.bigpond.com [139.134.6.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D33E37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.53]) by mailin8.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDA1BM00.5JC; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:54:58 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Revolutionary-MailRouter V2.9c 13/2026000); 13 May 2001 23:49:20 Message-ID: <019101c0dbb3$8d169430$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Don Wilde" Cc: "Stefan Parvu" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:49:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop > config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE > or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the > config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. Both KDE and gnome are > complex, moving targets that don't always install. Each has dozens of > dependencies. One thing I would do is to add lynx to the base install so > that the HTML docs option in sysinstall no longer requires a package > add. At the very least, we need to ensure that lynx is always on the > first CD, so it can be found without errors. > I don't have any argument whatever with the actual sysinstall which is one of the best thought out setups I've seen, however I do have constant problems with the packages themselves (ports too for that matter) due to various incompatibilities / missing libraries / etc. Its got to the stage lately where I'm tending to download stuff from the developers homepage / FTP site & compile from source rather than mess with either sysinstall or ports. > GUI would be a lot easier if we had better video card probes, but that's > always going to be another very fast-moving target. I think the present > system of /stand/sysinstall works well except for a very few problems: > The issue of videocard compatibility is what first got me interested in this thread earlier tonight .... seems the subject matter has gone all over the place since then however. Given the rate of change in videocard technology I don't know if its possible to keep pace with the latest & greatest. What I believe should be practical though is to specify a number of readily available videocards that are known to work properly all the time, then base a HOWTO on those. eg there are things like the Tseng ET4000 (ISA), ET6000/6100 (PCI), S3 Virge (PCI), ATI Rage Pro (AGP) that have been around almost since the dawn of time and that from my experience work well in any operating system. Given the millions of each of those sold, it seems reasonable to me to expect a ton of experience out there that knows exactly what configurations work. > * Newbie users need a clue as to WHICH CD each package is on. I think > adding one screen that shows the locations of the entire package > collection in a given release would be very appropriate. > Dunno about that .... I've never purchased the multi-CD set anyway ... my mo is to grap the source directly from the developer and compile the thing. I think one or two of the linux distributions did that (RedHat / Mandrake ??) but from memory the 50 page list of stuff with inadequate explanations only added to my confusion. Mind you that was only one of countless items that convinced me that linux wasn't something for me. > * Add lynx, as I said above. > > * remove gnome and KDE from the desktop config or separate them into a > distinct category with clear warnings. Hmmmm .... take the things right out & replace with CDE perhaps :) > > On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup > repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages > after we've started tracking STABLE. > -- or give the whole CVS thing a miss & leave well enough alone til the next RELEASE ?? I'm on an "anti-CVS" trip at present after experiencing nothing but problems with it. Seems a surprising number of experienced operators I've spoken to share that view as well. Does anyone have good experiences with it, or is it simply something that a few people use because its available ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 7: 7: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1974437B422; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4DE6jx27295; Sun, 13 May 2001 08:06:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFE94CF.2CD5AB51@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:06:07 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> <019101c0dbb3$8d169430$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm on an "anti-CVS" trip at present after experiencing nothing but > problems with it. > Seems a surprising number of experienced operators I've spoken to > share that view as well. > Does anyone have good experiences with it, or is it simply something > that a few people use because its available ?? > I think CVSup is _essential_ and is an excellent tool. The only thing I _don't_ ever do is try to bump it a branch, i.e. 3.x to 4.x. I'm sure it would work and the files that need to be hand-updated are well documented, but I don't have the patience to do that. I'd rather just install a raw -RELEASE from CDs and update from there. [Of course, I have a T1 and a dozen machines to park my userland files on...] I've rarely had problems with CVSup itself except that some servers are slower than others. A web page that showed loading on the mirrors would be really nice. If a 'make buildworld' does happen to crash, just go back and CVSup again a few hours later. Even if your sources are out of whack for that time, remember that all of your binaries are still good until you 'make installworld' over them. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 8:33:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web9506.mail.yahoo.com (web9506.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 57F3537B42C for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wisesage98@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010513153353.93111.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.183.104.147] by web9506.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 13 May 2001 08:33:53 PDT Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) From: JTSage Reply-To: wisesage98@yahoo.com Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stefan : > > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > good idea because: > > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > Install stuff. Yes, but in a limited sense. I want a simple and fast install, and you want a simple and fast install. I would bet that most people who hae been using BSD since the 2.2.x-R and 3.x-R days want a fast install. However, when I started with 2.2.6 back... uh... well, a while ago... a longer, slower install process with tons of online, inline documentation would have been great. > > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. Very true, but also no intuitive help, no little question mark in the upper righthand corner (ok, this is the *only* part of M$ I like) > > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? Yes, both, but you have a point. X isn't the most user friendly install, but with a well defined format for xf86config, sysinstall, with some work, *could* subvert the need to run the included X scripts > > At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. > If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and > read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other > commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than > any GUI ... Yes, they do, but on the other hand, shouldn't the sysinstall be geared twords both? We already have a expert/custom install, so really, this stuff wouldn't *have* to be added to that. As far as picking up a doc and reading it, I agree 100%, but where are they? I know now, but when I picked up that 2.2.7 CD i was clueless. > > Take a look and analyze the SUSE installer, RedHAT, Solaris. Is far more > complex than sysinstall. > > Just some ideas, > stefan > Overall, I couldn't be happier with the level of support I got when I started, however, in an increasing large commuity, with an increasing array of hardware / expertise level / number of newbies, i see more and more of the channels of help flooded with an overwhelming need, and often there arn't enough knowledgeable people to answer everything, while keeping their jobs and sanity ~Jon ===== ----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====---- "Did you ever wonder if the person in the puddle is real, and you're just a reflection of him?" - Calvin (from Calvin & Hobbes) ----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====---- [-WiSE-] wisesage98@yahoo.com www.wisefreebsd.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 9: 7:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AC737B424; Sun, 13 May 2001 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4DG7VR26383 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 18:07:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA09360 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 18:07:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:07:53 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Doug Young Cc: Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513180753.A9193@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Doug Young , Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle>; from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 10:36:50PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Young said on May 13, 2001 at 22:36:50: > > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not > a > > good idea because: Clarification: I didn't mean the installer should be GUI. I meant that in addition to the "beginner/expert/custom" type options that exist already, there should be one which installs KDE/GNOME/both, with the additional feature that the setup includes a desktop link to FreeBSD docs. In fact, what I really meant was changing the existing packages/ports for KDE/GNOME to include such an icon as part of the default, I suppose... and when you launch the help system for these applications, it should point you to the FreeBSD docs as well as their own docs. I'll look at this and see whether I can do it myself. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 13:41:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E83137B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 72CD566C04; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:45 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Stefan Parvu Cc: Doug Young , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513134145.C62345@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xesSdrSSBC0PokLI" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from sparvu@cc.hut.fi on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:02:58PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --xesSdrSSBC0PokLI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:02:58PM +0300, Stefan Parvu wrote: >=20 > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > good idea because: >=20 > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > Install stuff.=20 >=20 > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. >=20 > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? =20 >=20 > At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. > If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and > read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other > commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than > any GUI ...=20 You've misunderstood. We're not talking about a replacement for sysinstall (though that is -- slowly -- being developed with the full understanding of what you said above in mind); we're talking about the capability for sysinstall to install a Window Manager + desktop environment for the user to provide a more friendly face than a csh prompt. Actually, we're not even talking about that; it's already existed for some time -- we were talking about someone actually making a nice, FreeBSD-customized desktop environment for one of the popular WMs (I don't personally care which). Kris --xesSdrSSBC0PokLI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/vGIWry0BWjoQKURApGbAJ0XzvXTQskXAC44UOia3VVumZ1+WwCgpG5f DV31L5S7DpdOZmq+Cxu3JcI= =IE6O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xesSdrSSBC0PokLI-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 13:44:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4938E37B42C; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA51366C04; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:44:09 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Don Wilde Cc: Doug Young , Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513134409.D62345@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:10:23AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:10:23AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop > config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE > or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the > config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. [...] Could you please go and use sysinstall so we're at least on the same page as to what it already does? > On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup > repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages > after we've started tracking STABLE. I'm confused by this statement. What's a cvsup repository (CVS repository?), and what's wrong with the CVS branch tags (RELENG_4, ...)? Kris --RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/vIZWry0BWjoQKURAphRAJ9FzGNizBlT/Cm5AAA7YrLKOuSDoACfYFOV 7XdlhW9L9AQq0ZQ1q1GU+cY= =iIil -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 15:48:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA89A37B422; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4DMlA272694; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:47:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:47:10 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. They can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar words which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular meaning to people with a formal computer education. The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until then, you are not so likely to need the relatively more advanced stuff that they are found in. Part of the deal is learning about these things. What really stumps people is when, reading in that partially familiar environment, they must stop and try to figure out more common sounding words like: lexicographical order reursively whiteouts deprecated colon-delimited With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're obvious, but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a beginner. Some man pages restate these in more common words or show very easy examples where their meanings are apparent. Our man pages for the common user and setup commands could be improved by a going-over with this perspective in mind, perhaps referring to others such as the Tru64 man pages for ideas. In other documents, such as the Handbook, we could use something like a newbie review team to make sure that unnecessary difficulties don't creep in or they are linked to explanations or a glossary. That'd be lot of work. Meanwhile we have to be more aware of the nature of their difficulties. > But I find that most people (even intelligent, computer-literate > people) get intimidated by it, even though it works well and the ports > system etc are appealing. These people have problems with the chaotic > nature of linux distributions: but for some reason they find it too > difficult to adjust to the FreeBSD mindset, even when it's > demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about > anything you can do with Linux. Yep. There might only be one or two things that are hard to understand, but they are presented in such a foreign and frighteneing environment that suddenly nothing makes sense and it's not clear exactly where the problem is. Then asking questions about it is real tricky. > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, > there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't > seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can > just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the > KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. While that would be great, the person in this case was having trouble getting his head around what was required to install, a problem that exceeded what he had managed to extract from the docs. Not even a GUI install would help with the conceptual problems. I include part of his -questions post below as an example. I can't figure out what he wants, but I can tell that he's really thinking and applying himself to solving the problem. His previously good conceptual tools have let him down and diligent reading of the docs has't saved him. On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 11:36:23PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > the major thing I'm not too sure about is whether I should tell it I want it > to put things in the boot partition or not, and then wether I need to make > drive c "bootable" or not. I mean I know it needs to be for dos, and it is > currently of course, but FBSD does'nt seem to recognize that fact. I > thought I had it done right this morning but after I powered down it said > bad partition. > I want c: drive to be accesible as /c and d: as /d: ( ESPECIALLY D: ) which > are both FAT32 so that I can easily retrieve files I have stored there and > put somethere 2 if I choose too. What you see above is a person coming to FreeBSD with some decent working knowledge of his old environment, applying those concepts that he has already to try to understand what's required for installing FreeBSD. It's useless to tell him to forget his old OS, because at his point there is no way to tell which concepts are microsoftisms and which are not. No way. We who know more than he have to meet him in the middle until we have a common language. Because we can. > I really don't think it's so difficult to use FreeBSD if you read the > docs, but many people don't realise just how good the docs are... Heartily agreed. But it depends so much on where you're coming from. I raise again the old example doc http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html People say this summary is very harsh, and I agree, but nobody can point to parts of it and agree that that knowledge is _not_ a preprequisite. There is no path to success without a clear starting point. We need to rethink: Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and why can't we state those expectations clearly? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 16:37:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin2.email.bigpond.com (juicer14.bigpond.com [139.134.6.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2705137B422; Sun, 13 May 2001 16:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.53]) by mailin2.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDASJM00.2DX; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:42:58 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Emergent-MailRouter V2.9c 13/2112272); 14 May 2001 09:37:33 Message-ID: <024b01c0dc05$b1314fc0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Sue Blake" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:37:35 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing > where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. They > can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when > they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar words > which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular > meaning to people with a formal computer education. > :) ..... its called "martian" .... or maybe I'm confused & its really "venusian" !!! As I said in another posting, when I need to do something I generally wish to do it in the immediate future, not after I've had time to go spend a small fortune on O'Reilly books (for the benefit of the yankees they cost a days wage for many people in OZ with the current exchang rate of the pacific peso), then learn to comprehend martian / venusian at an academic level, and finally read half a library so one understands the historical background / philosophy / etc ........ when all that was needed in the first place was "run blah -x | grep foo" Its stuff like this that could readily be explained to the level needed for said newbie to achieve whatever they wish to achieve without all the drama. OK so the developers are busy people (& thats not in dispute), so how do we go about getting "official" sanction of the "user friendly" sites that do attempt to fill a need that the official docs can't / won't ?? > The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words > that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have > no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc > need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until > then, you are not so likely to need the relatively more advanced stuff > that they are found in. Part of the deal is learning about these things. > There is a limit to how much martian / venusian most of us can absorb in a hurry. For many people its very limited, so since the official folk didn't learn to speak the same language the majority of regular folk do it appears that meaningful docs can only be written by a team comprising someone with a reasonable grasp of english (or whatever language), an expert or two in a consultancy role, plus an interpreter who may not be an expert developer but speaks both the developer language & english (or whatever) > > With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're obvious, > but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a beginner. > So why the commandment "Thou shalt never use visual representations" (aka screenshots) ?? Hey maybe the docs folk are all visually impaired & use one of those screenreader apps like "Jaws". Might explain why all "official" docs muddle through with largely unintelligible text rather than the 'picture tells a thousand words" approach > Some man pages restate these in more common words or show very > easy examples where their meanings are apparent. Our man pages > for the common user and setup commands could be improved by a > going-over with this perspective in mind, perhaps referring to > others such as the Tru64 man pages for ideas. In other documents, > such as the Handbook, we could use something like a newbie review > team to make sure that unnecessary difficulties don't creep > in or they are linked to explanations or a glossary. > Exactly .... maybe then we'd have official docs with words on the pages rather than simply chapter headings & virtually blank pages !!! > > even when it's > > demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about > > anything you can do with Linux. > I couldn't imagine in my worst nightmare using linux for anything .... FreeBSD does most of what I want quite efficiently. The problem is simply how to figure new stuff out without making it into a command performance. Where I started with this thread was trying to discover if its reasonably feasable to write a step_by_step HOWTO about X-windows. After about a thousand postings I'm still none the wiser .... the only halfway relevant feedback advised that all open source GUIs are broken abortions / a waste of time / against the religion. (all of which I'd decided years ago). So what about all those people posting questions like "how do I configure my you beaut 256Mb , watercooled, turbocharged blah videocard for X-windows" ...... seems even many of us who have been using FreeBSD for years still haven't much idea how to configure an S3 Virge to work properly. > > Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > Thats a very good question & I'll be very interested to see the responses :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 13 17:37:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDA637B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4E0aN573048; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:36:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:36:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Doug Young Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514103623.B68348@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Doug Young , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> <024b01c0dc05$b1314fc0$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <024b01c0dc05$b1314fc0$0300a8c0@oracle>; from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:37:35AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Moved, it's a -doc issue now (was advocacy and newbies)] On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:37:35AM +1000, Doug Young wrote: > > And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing > > where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. > They > > can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when > > they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar > words > > which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular > > meaning to people with a formal computer education. > > > :) ..... its called "martian" .... or maybe I'm confused & its really > "venusian" !!! I thought it was Klingon :-) Whatever it is, your MUA's line-wrapper seems to have come from the same place :-) I'll rewrap for you. > There is a limit to how much martian / venusian most of us can absorb > in a hurry. For many people its very limited, so since the official > folk didn't learn to speak the same language the majority of regular > folk do it appears that meaningful docs can only be written by a team > comprising someone with a reasonable grasp of english (or whatever > language), an expert or two in a consultancy role, plus an > interpreter who may not be an expert developer but speaks both the > developer language & english (or whatever) The problem we have is that the people with the skills to execute these good ideas, either don't contribute them to our docs (and we're left with a volunteer staff of hard working Klingons trying their very best), OR, they go off and do their own thing somewhere else, which is great to have but fails to enrich the FreeBSD docs in any way. Like so many things round here, we have lots of people ready to jump up with good ideas, even more people weeing themselves with excitement at the chance to code the infrastructure, but hardly a soul to do the actual work. This applies to FreeBSD doc ideas as much as it does to support ideas. "If you build it they will come" is a naive view does not work for support/docs, but it has been a popular pipe dream for the several years that I've been watching. Better docs/support requires supply of prose, not code. The first thing we need is people, working within the community, to do the stuff. You can sketch out a few docs and send them to freebsd-doc. I find SGML intimidating, but plain text is fine. If it's valid and useful, after feedback and editing and completion someone will step forward and mark it up and commit it for you. Anyone who doesn't want a precious word of their prose altered will have to do it some other way, of course. And there are other reasons why some people keep their docs sepaparte from the FreeBSD docs. But in general, we need people contributing to docs if there is going to ever be any improvement. And we need bums on seats and text on file, way way way before we need more should-be and should-be-nots and code. > > With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're > > obvious, but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a > > beginner. > > > So why the commandment "Thou shalt never use visual representations" > (aka screenshots) ?? Hey maybe the docs folk are all visually > impaired & use one of those screenreader apps like "Jaws". Might > explain why all "official" docs muddle through with largely > unintelligible text rather than the 'picture tells a thousand words" > approach No, it's because nobody has submitted them for inclusion. That's how everything that's in the docs already has got there. If you have something worth adding, check on -doc that nobody's already working on the same thing, sound out your ideas, and send them to -doc for review. You could be surprised what makes it through that process simply due to the absence of any alternative. > Exactly .... maybe then we'd have official docs with words on the > pages rather than simply chapter headings & virtually blank pages !!! Exactly. > Where I started with this thread was trying to discover if its > reasonably feasable to write a step_by_step HOWTO about X-windows. Please, please do! And please do it as part of the FreeBSD Doc Project if you can. Then after it's done, you will become a role model who has found an omission and gone on to correct it, and others might follow. > > > > Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and > > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > > > Thats a very good question & I'll be very interested to see the > responses :) Maybe some of the -doc people have thought about this. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 0:12:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C7F37B423; Mon, 14 May 2001 00:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4E79Lk40096; Mon, 14 May 2001 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Sue Blake" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "N6REJ" , , Subject: RE: I'm leaving Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 00:09:17 -0700 Message-ID: <006201c0dc44$ca69ebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Sue Blake >Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:47 PM >To: Rahul Siddharthan >Cc: Kathy Quinlan; N6REJ; freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: I'm leaving > > >On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. > >And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing >where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. They >can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when >they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar words >which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular >meaning to people with a formal computer education. > This is exactly why I wrote my book The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide - to hand-hold the people coming in from a Windows environment to a FreeBSD environment, who have a grasp of the terminology used in Windows. (and which is teriffically damaging as Microsoft has been on a 20-year campaign to doublespeak the entire industry. Just to give you an example I had to spend 3 pages explaining that there IS a difference between the word "Domain" used in Microsoft Windows networking, and used everywhere else.) >The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words >that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have >no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc >need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until No - these are not "UNIX" words in particular, they are general computer science terms. >then, you are not so likely to need the relatively more advanced stuff >that they are found in. Part of the deal is learning about these things. > >What really stumps people is when, reading in that partially familiar >environment, they must stop and try to figure out more common sounding >words like: > >lexicographical order >reursively >whiteouts >deprecated >colon-delimited > >With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're obvious, >but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a beginner. > >Some man pages restate these in more common words or show very >easy examples where their meanings are apparent. Our man pages >for the common user and setup commands could be improved by a >going-over with this perspective in mind, perhaps referring to >others such as the Tru64 man pages for ideas. In other documents, >such as the Handbook, we could use something like a newbie review >team to make sure that unnecessary difficulties don't creep >in or they are linked to explanations or a glossary. > >That'd be lot of work. Meanwhile we have to be more aware of >the nature of their difficulties. > That is a good idea, any writing can be helped by conciseness. Not only adding examples but how many man pages have things that are frankly wrong in them I wonder? But, it doesen't really address the fundamental problem your talking about with newbies - it is that there's a basic paradigm that has to be used to approach UNIX. People who have come at it with only Windows experience are coming from a paradigm that in recent years has been designed to give it's users as little information about how things _really_work_ as opposed to how _microsoft_windows_ works. Your talking about a company that would happily replace all instances of FIFO in it's documentation with WSIB then allude as how this is short for "Windows Sequential Inline Buffer" and make no mention of FIFO anywhere, if they thought it would gain them a competitive advantage. They have been doing this with Internet technologies since they got into it, and people that only have been raised on this diet have an incredibly f&*k up understanding of ordinary Internet terms, which makes it hard to wean them off Windows. >> But I find that most people (even intelligent, computer-literate >> people) get intimidated by it, even though it works well and the ports >> system etc are appealing. These people have problems with the chaotic >> nature of linux distributions: but for some reason they find it too >> difficult to adjust to the FreeBSD mindset, even when it's >> demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about >> anything you can do with Linux. > >Yep. There might only be one or two things that are hard to understand, >but they are presented in such a foreign and frighteneing environment >that suddenly nothing makes sense and it's not clear exactly where >the problem is. Then asking questions about it is real tricky. > No, they aren't presented in a "foreign" environment, they are presented in the "normal" environment - the problem is that the windows-only admin has been fed goat cheese for so long they don't understand that normal cheese isn't supposed to stink. >> Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the >> install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, >> and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? >> Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, >> there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't >> seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can >> just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the >> KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. > >While that would be great, the person in this case was having >trouble getting his head around what was required to install, >a problem that exceeded what he had managed to extract from the >docs. But, he didn't look at all the docs that are out there, don't you see? This isn't a problem with a falling down of the FreeBSD docs. The problem is that we have here a user that isn't committed enough to spend the 3 hours to walk into a bookstore, and pick up a piece of documentation (ie: my book) that _would_ help him, and read it and see for himself that it _would_ help him and buy it!!! He's probably never even touched a Linux book either although the technical bookstores are stuffed with them!!! But, I'll bet that he as spent at least $500 on Windows books. >I include part of his -questions post below as an example. >I can't figure out what he wants, but I can tell that he's really >thinking and applying himself to solving the problem. His previously >good conceptual tools have let him down and diligent reading of the >docs has't saved him. > Well, I have no sympathy as at least FreeBSD _supplies_ docs _for free_ on the website - that's far better than what you get when you buy a copy of Windows, there's no docs supplied at all! >On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 11:36:23PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > >> the major thing I'm not too sure about is whether I should tell >it I want it >> to put things in the boot partition or not, and then wether I >need to make >> drive c "bootable" or not. I mean I know it needs to be for >dos, and it is >> currently of course, but FBSD does'nt seem to recognize that fact. I >> thought I had it done right this morning but after I powered down it said >> bad partition. >> I want c: drive to be accesible as /c and d: as /d: ( ESPECIALLY >D: ) which >> are both FAT32 so that I can easily retrieve files I have stored >there and >> put somethere 2 if I choose too. > >What you see above is a person coming to FreeBSD with some decent >working knowledge of his old environment, applying those concepts >that he has already to try to understand what's required for >installing FreeBSD. It's useless to tell him to forget his old OS, >because at his point there is no way to tell which concepts are >microsoftisms and which are not. No way. We who know more than he >have to meet him in the middle until we have a common language. >Because we can. > We already have by supplying free docs within FreeBSD, the caliber that aren't anywhere near the free ones supplied with any Windows installation. We alreay have by supplying books that cost money, and that sell for cheaper than any serious Windows book does, books that go in depth into this sort of problem. I have a whole part of a chapter devoted to clearing away all this inconsistent rubbish dos/windowisims terminology he is using on filesystems. >> I really don't think it's so difficult to use FreeBSD if you read the >> docs, but many people don't realise just how good the docs are... > >Heartily agreed. But it depends so much on where you're coming from. > >I raise again the old example doc >http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html >People say this summary is very harsh, and I agree, but nobody can point >to parts of it and agree that that knowledge is _not_ a preprequisite. > >There is no path to success without a clear starting point. >We need to rethink: > > Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and I don't agree with this at all. I think that your not going to be able to gain consensus in The FreeBSD Community as to what a _detailed_ set of expectations are. Certainly, YOU can propose a _general_ set of expectations, and probably get a majority to sign off on it, but a general set of expectations is not an exact set. Once you start getting detailed enough for it to be an exact set, your not going to get a majority consensus. > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > I think that most people in The FreeBSD Community that have a specific set of expectations for what a newbie should know, can in fact, state them pretty clearly. But, I also think that the majority of people that got into FreeBSD didn't do it through a regimented training program, but rather by ploughing on through, and as such don't really care about such things. In short, it's the argument "I had to work and sweat my way to understanding and I made it, so if your complaining to me about how hard it is, then I'm not that sympathetic." Just because this argument isn't Politically Correct, doesen't make it wrong. Fortunately, there are some people (like myself) who once we have ploughed on through, we are willing to reach a hand back and pull some newbies along a broken trail. But, if it's Newbie Expectations that you want', well here's mine: Guide to Proper Newbie Expectations to have before running FreeBSD The following is a bit of a guide that I wrote up which should be read by anyone who thinks they want to run FreeBSD. These are what I would call "The FreeBSD Community's minimum expectations for you" if there was such a thing and they had expectations. Happily, there's not, but it may help you to pretend that there is so this is why these are here. Use at your own risk! 1) We didn't write FreeBSD to make things easy for YOU! We wrote FreeBSD to make things easy for US! What this basically means is that if you need to do computational things that are similar to the computational things we need to do, then FreeBSD will probably makes things easier for you. But, if your needs aren't our needs, then there's less liklihood that it will make a difference if you learn FreeBSD or not. 2) We don't (in general) make money off of your use of FreeBSD. I know this is amazing, but there is no secret way that advertising revenue is making us all millionaires. You see, all the IPO activity and the dot-commers that were active in the year 2000 pretty much killed it for us - the Linux people were able to manufacture a bunch of paper companies and make millions of dollars from ignorant investors, but we never got around to doing this with FreeBSD before Wall Street wised up. Like someone else said, FreeBSD users make money the "eld fasoned waye - waee EARN it" What this means is that our interest in seeing you with a successful FreeBSD installation is that of fans at a sports game - we will happily cheer you on if you win, but if you lose, we really don't feel that we owe you a consolation prize. 3) We think it's unfair if you aren't willing to spend the same money on hardware you use for FreeBSD, as on hardware for That Other Operating System. We think it was sometime in 1996 that a newbie actually signed on and said "Hey, guys, I want to run FreeBSD and _I_DON'T_HAVE_A_MACHINE_YET_ and _WHAT_SHOULD_I_BUY?_ We still treasure that moment with a warm spot in our hearts. Meanwhile, understand that just like you would never go buy a WANic405 for use under Windows 95, because Windows 95 drivers don't exist for it, we would never go buy a _insert-usb-mouse-parallel-port-tapedrive-floppy-controller-vibrator-here_ for use with FreeBSD because FreeBSD drivers don't exist for it. We ALSO wouldn't expect to take that running FreeBSD system with a WANic405 in it and convert it to run under Windows 95 and we don't think you should expect to take that running Windows 95 system with a PCTel Winmodem in it and convert it to run under FreeBSD. 4) We feel it's reasonable to expect 2 weeks of your time understanding FreeBSD. Of course, we mean the SAME kind of time that you would spend if your boss would give you 2 weeks for a project, ie: 80 hours. We feel that 80 hours can easily be divided up over a month's time of 3 hours every evening getting to know FreeBSD. We figure that if you have prior computer experience and you've spent 3 hours every evening attempting to install FreeBSD for a month, then that's pretty reasonable for a brand new operating system you've never seen before, and you will have a running system out of it. 5) We expect that if your going to make unfavorable comparisons between FreeBSD and other operating systems, that you are going to know FreeBSD front, back, up, down, and sideways. In short, newbies that make a lot of "Well, linnnuuxx has THIS and FreeBSD is so LAME for not having it" kinds of remarks basically succeed in making themselves look like idiots. 6) We expect that your not going to be foolish enough to install an operating system you know nothing about, and have no prior experience on particular hardware with, onto a production system that has data on it you want to keep. In short, a newbie installing FreeBSD onto a multiboot system with 4 different copies of Windows on it that can be selected by some convenient boot program, is a newbie that is about to permanently lose all his data. Look, can't you go down to the back loading dock of Intel and dig out an old 4GB IDE disk from their dumpster or something then use that for your first FreeBSD installation? Seriously, if your not even willing to spend that much money to safeguard your data, then don't come running to us when you chop your foot off. You can get beautiful, 3 year old, server-quality Pentiums for a few hundred bucks from Ebay and use them for test systems, then once you understand what your doing, you can try farting around with multiboot. 7) We expect that your not under some artificial time limit to have a running FreeBSD system up. Like the saying goes, Your Lack Of Prepardness Is Not Our Emergency. If you boss just came to you and told you to get a FreeBSD system up and running in 2 weeks, and you've never seen a FreeBSD system before, well then there's a lot of jobs out there looking for people, we are sure you can find something in 2 weeks. Seriously, trying to learn something under pressure is not the way to do things. There's companies that sell prebuilt FreeBSD servers if you really are in this situation. 8) Finally, and most importantly, we expect that you have a CLEAR IDEA of what kind of problem your going to solve by setting up FreeBSD, and that your POSITIVE that setting up FreeBSD is going to solve it. Since by definition (since you haven't set up FreeBSD before) you shouldn't know if FreeBSD really will solve the problem or not, an excellent way to find out before spending the trouble is to ask us. And, please don't waste our time asking if FreeBSD is going to do this or do that - you got a problem, by Gawd spit it out, boy! If you need to know if FreeBSD will act as a fileserver for both UNIX and Windows clients, by golly spit that out - don't start by making a bunch of assumptions about HOW FreeBSD is going to do this and then start beating around the bush asking Will FreeBSD support ACL's over Appleytalk with Macintosh clients, leaving us to sit there attempting to guess what in Sam Hill your actually trying to accomplish! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 5:40:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD23D37B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 05:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4ECcFx44541; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:38:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFFD1B6.16179EB0@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:38:14 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Doug Young , Stefan Parvu , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010513134409.D62345@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:10:23AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop > > config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE > > or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the > > config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. > > [...] > > Could you please go and use sysinstall so we're at least on the same > page as to what it already does? > I do, Kris, 4.x branch. "Configure XFree86 Desktop." Like I said, wm and fvwm2 (and Afterstep) install quite well and gnome and KDE give me problems. > > On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup > > repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages > > after we've started tracking STABLE. > > I'm confused by this statement. What's a cvsup repository (CVS > repository?), and what's wrong with the CVS branch tags (RELENG_4, > ...)? > Okay, thinking about it, I mis-typed. When I go to get _packages_ after CVSup'ing to -STABLE, it complains until I change my tag in OPTIONS back to -RELEASE. Sorry for the confusion, I be dain bramaged. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 5:41:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7280437B43C; Mon, 14 May 2001 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sparvu@alpha.hut.fi) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (sparvu@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28603; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:39:15 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:39:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Stefan Parvu To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Stefan Parvu , Doug Young , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving In-Reply-To: <20010513134145.C62345@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ok guys Anyway having a WM with all the godies for FreeBSD would be nice. stefan On Sun, 13 May 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:45 -0700 > From: Kris Kennaway > To: Stefan Parvu > Cc: Doug Young , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: I'm leaving > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:02:58PM +0300, Stefan Parvu wrote: > > > > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > > good idea because: > > > > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > > Install stuff. > > > > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. > > > > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? > > > > At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. > > If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and > > read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other > > commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than > > any GUI ... > > You've misunderstood. We're not talking about a replacement for > sysinstall (though that is -- slowly -- being developed with the full > understanding of what you said above in mind); we're talking about the > capability for sysinstall to install a Window Manager + desktop > environment for the user to provide a more friendly face than a csh > prompt. Actually, we're not even talking about that; it's already > existed for some time -- we were talking about someone actually making > a nice, FreeBSD-customized desktop environment for one of the popular > WMs (I don't personally care which). > > Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 6:18:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED57637B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22422; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:18:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14zIEF-0008OI-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:17:39 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:17:39 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514151739.A3213@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> <006201c0dc44$ca69ebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <006201c0dc44$ca69ebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 12:09:17AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello everybody [Technical information: Since I think everybody who is on the Cc: list at present is member of one of the two list this message will get posted to, I am pruning the others. I am aware that N6REJ is no longer with us but I think that this sort of in-fighting might be of no particular interest to him, esp the last mail must not have been very encouraging to a newbie. Cc: lists have a tendency to grow uncontrallably, luckily some sane MUAs allow the "List Reply" function.] Disclaimer note: I know that Ted likes to spur a nice flame session on -advocacy every so often when he feels "strongly" about something but I am also aware that he wants to help. So, I am trying very hard to not not be put off by his style but rather react to the points raised. In the off-chance that this might not succeed in some cases, it means that I have been unable to control my dissatisfaction. I still think that if someone hates customers, they should not be working in the Customer Service (ie advocacy) department, you cannot actually help people when you have an unflattering opinion of them. And this is not only for you Ted, there have been reactions on -doc lately in Re: ftp.freebsd.org problems (which was completely our fault as far as the communication disaster that still hasn't settled fully goes btw) that made me feel sick and ask myself: Maybe I like the software, and software is not to blame in any case, but do I really want to be identified with this group of people as well? With this in mind, let's go: On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 12:09:17AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> > >> Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. And quite often not. PR Support: Exhibit No1 Yesterday I helped a poster who submitted a PR because he could not install FreeBSD. Although he was quite vague about his hardware setup, only pasting the output of the Linux "mount" command, but somehow I had a gut feeling that his problem (he could not actually write out the partition information in sysinstall) was due to the fact that he was trying to install into an extended partition. Upon asking for clarification, he promptly confirmed that this was the case and could continue on his way. Upon looking at the documentation, however, I was very surprised to find that not only do we not say on our front page that FreeBSD (unlike many PC OSs) does require a primary parition to install (and if possible the first one, since you have to be within the 1024th cyl to boot) but upon first glance I could not find it anywhere. Maybe it is just me (I do not remeber from where I learned that you need a primary for installation), but I think that given that I am familiar with the structure of our docs, a newbie is not likely to fare any better. (But eg I have a hard time seeing how running DOS binaries on FreeBSD is pertinent for INSTALL.TXT) As others have suggested a regular proof-reading and QA team would be useful as already employed by many other projects and companies. This is also a good way to show how people without necessary high-level coding skills can help out. But this needs to be organized much like the freebsd-newbies effort, that it is actually visible, because "insider wisdom" that "we welcome new contributors" is not actaully readable on the web page although incidentally that is the place people are going to look at. Also, simply saying: "Read the doxxx dammit and submit patches in ready-to-insert format when you're ready" is not going to cut it, the effort needs to be led and coordinated by experienced folks who can also act as liaisons to the "innards" of the project, by talking to those who'd actually rather code than talk. (and there are people like that on the FreeBSD project) Also, they could supply necessary background info on items that are not obvious at first sight but are actually important. Doc Project: Exhibit No2 Although I do not claim to have actually led a documentation project or even part of it, but there was some movement some time back that the FreeBSD documentation be translated into Hungarian. We even started out and even though I could not donate much of my personal time to the actual translation, it soon turned out that people needed a person to turn to when they had questions about how the doc project technically worked, and there needed to be someone who whacked them back into shape when they did not obey the rules. Although these people have never used DocBook in their whole lives before, and most did not even have the docproj port installed (understand, most in Hungary are on modems and do not have the luxury of free broadband Net access, on the contrary, they still pay by the minute.) so did not even undestand some of my yawnings but after a couple of iterations they simply got used to it and started to conform to the rules. I set up a "test" environment to which I co-d the latest translations and made sure it was DocBook-ly correct and turned it into HTML, so that they could see the result of their work on the web page and so that other Hungarian users could comment on it. This endavour would not have been possible had it been left at: "Wanna submit doxxx? Great. Send patches!" but this way at least the chance exists that these people might teach others too and so more and more doc makers would join us and ultimately maybe the Project too. > This is exactly why I wrote my book The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's > Guide - Yes, it looks like a very useful resource! Thank you for that! (Sorry I could not buy it yet because it costs approx one third of a month 's wage for an average Hungarian emloyee, not to mention students...) > is teriffically damaging as Microsoft has been on a 20-year campaign to > doublespeak the entire industry. Just to give you an example I had to spend > 3 pages explaining that there IS a difference between the word "Domain" used > in Microsoft Windows networking, and used everywhere else.) Maybe I am just acting very dumb here, but most people I have spoken here about it either had no clue about any of them (which is good because they are not yet "spoiled") or have only heard about the Internet variety. Which again is good. This may be because Windows has a long history of coming with localized docs, and the two "domains" are translated using different words most of the time so people do not confuse them. And many places do not use Windows domains at all, because win95/98 does not require it. > >The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words > >that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have > >no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc > >need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until > > No - these are not "UNIX" words in particular, they are general computer > science terms. Khm, khm. Come on Ted. What's next? "Before you touch this complex and expensive equipment called "a computer" you have to present proofs that you have succesfully completed a CS Basics class"? Why does someone *using* a computer need to get involved with *computer science* at all? Do you have to be an electrician to use a household appliance? This might have been true in the old days when computers were not an ubiquity, but rare and fragile species filling rooms apiece. But then there was really hardly any need for *users* on the system: users simply submitted their jobs and operators fed it to the machine. My father is an engineer and when he went to university he had to do this to get his complex calculations done. It seems to me that many diehards still long for this era, but it's past, gone, for good or worse. The question is not (as you suggest later on) what a FIFO is called but whetever you are required to know what a FIFO is and how it operates etc to be able to install and administer a FreeBSD (or any other) box. We are not talking about people versed in Windows programming who now try to convert to FreeBSD... we are talking about that mystical species, who seems to think that computers are not only for their own good but rather for what they can do and their usefulness can be measured by this. And sometimes we seem to be cheeky on purpose, in an attempt to keep others out. Like: > >deprecated This word is not used anywhere outside of standardization bodies. Why are we still sticking to it? > That is a good idea, any writing can be helped by conciseness. Not only > adding examples but how many man pages have things that are frankly wrong > in them I wonder? I'm all in on this one. That's why it is important to have good developer-documenter relations because while it is not in the job description of a developer to have excellent verbal communication skills, it is them who undestand the code best. > are coming from a paradigm that in recent years has been designed to give > it's > users as little information about how things _really_work_ as opposed to how > _microsoft_windows_ works. Objection. The last sentence should read: "to give it's users as little information about how things really work as opposed to how you can do them on MS Windows"...:-) They are not actually telling you up front how Windows works although sometimes I'd be really curious to know:-) > Your talking about a company that would happily replace all instances of > FIFO > in it's documentation with WSIB then allude as how this is short for > "Windows Sequential Inline Buffer" and make no mention of FIFO anywhere, > if they thought it would gain them a competitive advantage. They have been > doing this with Internet technologies since they got into it, and people > that only have been raised on this diet have an incredibly f&*k up > understanding > of ordinary Internet terms, which makes it hard to wean them off Windows. Maybe again because of the language thing, the only "side-effect" of MS-izations here I can see that web designers choose to ignore the standards and design for IE, because everybody uses that anyway, and that newbie users tend to think that while IE is "The Internet" because that's what the link on their desktop says, Netscape is a browser. How the two relate in their heads I do not know. By the time I got to know IE I was already well aware that it is a browser. (actually, a browser interface, just like Mozilla is just an interface to the Mozilla framework whatever it will be used for later) But the users (unlike the designers) are rather easy to teach once you catch their attention. Have done that on numerous occassions here at the dorm with non-technical users with success:-) > >Yep. There might only be one or two things that are hard to understand, > >but they are presented in such a foreign and frighteneing environment > >that suddenly nothing makes sense and it's not clear exactly where > >the problem is. Then asking questions about it is real tricky. Totally agree. I witnessed (OK, I did more than that:-) a Linux user who was intrigued by my FreeBSD success story and decided to switch to it, how he became totally uneasy although he was used to working on the command line. But at once he could no longer be sure eg how to safely shut down his machine, if the halt command would still work and DTRT. And if you think that this is nonsense, than try to use the killall command on various Unices and watch! For best results, try it as root! So much for the alleged "normal environment" that is supposed to be the mother of all computing wisdom. Of course, with a little bit of gentle help he was soon well on his way and today he is sometimes a more "violent" proponent of FreeBSD than I'd like to see. > No, they aren't presented in a "foreign" environment, they are presented > in the "normal" environment - the problem is that the windows-only admin > has been fed goat cheese for so long they don't understand that normal > cheese isn't supposed to stink. Ted, I am sure you are aware that there was a time when people had to be warned that "not all the world uses VMS". So much for the normal environment. "Normal" is what you are familiar with and what you see most around you use. If in your case it is UNIX, it is UNIX for you. But there is no intrinsic relationship between CS and UNIX in the form that you are trying to suggest here. Many CS students today already learn programming on Windows, for good or for worse. But CS itself OS independent. > >> Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > >> install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > >> and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > >> Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, > >> there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't > >> seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can > >> just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the > >> KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. In re: GUI install, just out of curiosity I decided to give the new GNOME a whirl yesterday. It took an amazing amount of time to compile (even if I don't count the time while it was just waiting for me to wake up and answer the question "Do you want to be hacked?" for GDM) and had an insane number of dependencies. Really hats off to Ade for the work! (as an aside, I think my theory is slowly getting confirmation that if you want a GUI that reasonably resembles Windows, it will end up to be at least as complex, resource-hungry and convoluted as the original... these days, source code and all, troubleshooting GNOME is becoming an impossible undertaking unless you are one of the authors, there is just too many places that it can break) I deleted all my earlier .gnome dirs because I wanted to see what the default install would look like. (I still missed .esd, so I still don't know if ESD would work at all:-) Well, the default install started with an astonishing windows-green desktop and two menu bars that took up much of the screen (presumably one for windows the other for Mac converts) and the possible "customization" for FreeBSD was that there was a fish in the right lower corner which, according to the About box, wastes disk space, eats CPU cycles and generally anyone caught using this applet should be rushed to hospital. (I am not making this up, read it for yourself!) (but maybe it is also in the default install dunno) and the Help browser only incorporates the Handbooks for GNOME, the info pages and maybe the man pages too. Now, this is the place where we should come in. I am sure that the FreeBSD Handbook and FAQ would make a great appearance there. But maybe that would require writing a new interface to the Help browser, dunno. They seem to have switched to XML in the meantime. Although I would not use it as my wm of choice, it may still help newbies with proper customizations. Like how about: you can choose if you want both task bars or just one of them at install time? These only require a proper config file to be copied, no recompile. I do not know the full extent to which GNOME can be scripted, but I know that the FreeBSD project could even produce a custom "Beastie" version of Mozilla with not that great effort:-) > But, he didn't look at all the docs that are out there, don't you see? > > This isn't a problem with a falling down of the FreeBSD docs. The problem > is that we have here a user that isn't committed enough to spend the > 3 hours to walk into a bookstore, and pick up a piece of documentation > (ie: my book) that _would_ help him, and read it and see for himself that > it _would_ help him and buy it!!! He's probably never even touched a Linux > book either although the technical bookstores are stuffed with them!!! But, > I'll bet that he as spent at least $500 on Windows books. Again, I must stress that giving support is different from writing a book in that in a book you can say: I am going this route. You either come with me or you are SOL. In a real support situation, there is actually interaction. If you do not like this, do not answer support questions, that's fine. But do not be mad at people because they want to solve problems, not to gain in-depth knowledge. Of course if somebody is missing the basics than you can (again, gently) point them to the source of info first, and if they do not peruse them, that's their fault, but you have tried, but *expecting* them up-front to know what they are supposed to learn is somewhat funny no? Similarly, after giving the info and working with the person with the problem (which is not the same as just saying something to get them off your neck) I may point the person to additional info, which is tailored to the level of interest, expertise and likely attention-span of the person in question. (Of course having a sheer amount of docs at your disposal may help in this somewhat, to say an undertatement this time) The fact that this works best in a person-on-person setting seems to suggest btw that no matter what kind of AI you use, no "expert system" can fill this very important "help on help" function as well as a human can and I have no problems with that. You may need help to be able to use help sources at all. Many developers are subscribed to FreeBSD lists and "expert level" questions get answered fairly quickly, which is also good. But this "help-on-help" function is underrepresented, sometimes just indicated by silence, sometimes reduced to the anti-support hymn "RTFM! And get L0st! (192bpm 2001 remix)" which seems to be a smash hit everywhere where people are supposed to help others, not just computers. List support: Exhibit No3 Although I do not write as much on the FreeBSD.org lists as I used to, but this has to do a lot with the fact that I no longer use -STABLE so I would not be able to help much. But "at home", on the Hungarian users' mailing list I am usually the person who does first line support and "extracts" info from the seemingly sometimes unintellegible postings and quite often someone can help the person afterwards. This requires patience, good people skills, good verbal communication and an undying cheerful attitude, but on the days when I do not feel up to snuff on these, I simply step back from the keyboard and do not write anything so as not to accidentally insult people when they do not deserve it. What if the person you asked about something at say IRS would answer by mocking you for not understanding tax law instead answering? And it is not the "I am entitled to" part that is important here, it is the "standards of public service" part, paid or not. An OpenSource project, to quote myself, is sooo much more than just code. Among other things, it is also public service. It is even more so in the case of a centralized project like the BSDs where developers are often the face of the projects when they speak from @bsd.org addresses. > Well, I have no sympathy as at least FreeBSD _supplies_ docs _for free_ > on the website - that's far better than what you get when you buy a copy > of Windows, there's no docs supplied at all! Ted, I cannot believe you are serious. Have you visited www.microsoft.com recently by any chance? It is choke-full of docs, even the ResKits are mostly online although you have to pay for those in book form. Agreed, finding something on that site is not easy by any means, but the (very insecure:-) IIS Indexing service works wonders so a Search should turn up a lot. Hell, if I do not know what a Windows system file is good for, I just go to the MS home page, enter the file name into the Search box and voila. Usually the answer is somewhere in there. > >What you see above is a person coming to FreeBSD with some decent > >working knowledge of his old environment, applying those concepts > >that he has already to try to understand what's required for > >installing FreeBSD. It's useless to tell him to forget his old OS, > >because at his point there is no way to tell which concepts are > >microsoftisms and which are not. No way. We who know more than he > >have to meet him in the middle until we have a common language. > >Because we can. Yes. That's my strategy too. > I don't agree with this at all. I think that your not going to be able to > gain > consensus in The FreeBSD Community as to what a _detailed_ set of > expectations > are. IMHO it should be not as much a warning sign to those who are outside but rather a warning sign to those on *this* side of the counter. Similar to the "Our Policy" signs at some companies. So that those who bother to write back to a poster might refresh their memory that you are *not* required to hold a CS degree to ask a question just because it is more convenient to answer. Yes, this is harsh, but this what all "people jobs" are about. Smartassing is never desired. So a general consensus is fine, details can form themselves out. Like the one on the Hungarian Linux Beginner maillist which says: RTFM is not an answer on this list. > > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > In short, it's the argument "I had to work and sweat my way to understanding > and I made > it, so if your complaining to me about how hard it is, then I'm not that > sympathetic." > > Just because this argument isn't Politically Correct, doesen't make it > wrong. Hmmmm.... while I do not care about PC when it means something else than a computer, I think that once you are taking the trouble to answer this attitude does not fly. > Fortunately, > there are some people (like myself) who once we have ploughed on through, we > are willing > to reach a hand back and pull some newbies along a broken trail. Contrast this laudable attitude with what you write below... well... > But, if it's Newbie Expectations that you want', well here's mine: And here is mine: > Guide to Proper Newbie Expectations to have before running FreeBSD Guide to proper relations between members of the project with varying knowledge level. > The following is a bit of a guide that I wrote up which should be read by > anyone > who thinks they want to run FreeBSD. These are what I would call "The > FreeBSD > Community's minimum expectations for you" if there was such a thing and they > had expectations. Happily, there's not, but it may help you to pretend that > there > is so this is why these are here. Use at your own risk! This guide is meant to be some guidance to those who decide to ask for help on the various FreeBSD support forums and to those that decide to answer them for whatever reason. > 1) We didn't write FreeBSD to make things easy for YOU! We wrote FreeBSD to > make > things easy for US! 1) This is not a pissing contest. Respect is the name of the game here: The person asking a question or answering you is not threatening to break your precious chinaware nor is he/she insulting your mother so chill off. After all, this is just a computer program, not an end of the world as we know it. Poster, understand that people who answer are doing so in their free time and usually put in tremendous amount of work into this thing we call the FreeBSD Project. Respect it. Answerer, be aware that people generally do not ask questions just for the heck of it, but only if they have problems. You know what kind of frustrating feeling that is. Try to symphatise (sp?) with the person and work with him/her on a solution rather than giving a fast answer to get him/her off your chest. If you know a better way than what the poster is presumably aiming at, go ahead and mention it. People are interested in solutions... respect the poster. If you are more knowledgeable, let it show, but let it rather shine through than kick them in the head. People appreciate this. <...> > 2) We don't (in general) make money off of your use of FreeBSD. I know this <...> > FreeBSD before Wall Street wised up. Like someone else said, FreeBSD users > make money the "eld fasoned waye - waee EARN it" What this means is that > our interest in seeing you with a successful FreeBSD installation is that of > fans at a sports game - we will happily cheer you on if you win, but if you > lose, we really don't feel that we owe you a consolation prize. 2) Poster, understand that there is no business relationship between you and the Project that would "entitle" you to quick and effective support. Answerer, bear in mind that by taking up the challange and answering that question, you are a representative of the Project, even if for that one occasion only. Behave as a repsonsible fan: People are going to judge the team you are out for by your actions and attitude. What's more, since our team always needs new fans, it is your behaviour that may decide if people grow to like us and will want to know more about us, or you turn them off. Understand that there is nothing that would entitle you to be rude to a person even if that person hasn't paid you to be nice to him/her. This is not a business relationship, this is you helping the Project you like. > 3) We think it's unfair if you aren't willing to spend the same money on > hardware you use for FreeBSD, as on hardware for That Other Operating > System. We think it was sometime in 1996 that a newbie actually signed on > and said "Hey, guys, I want to run FreeBSD and _I_DON'T_HAVE_A_MACHINE_YET_ > and _WHAT_SHOULD_I_BUY?_ We still treasure that moment with a warm spot in <...> 3) Poster, be aware that computers tend to be made up of very different hardware items. Some of these are better supported by FreeBSD than others, some may not be supported at all. Please consult the Supported HW list as you would with any other OS purchase. At first this may seem strange, but soon you will see that just a little bit of attention to detail is paying off several times, and after it becomes your habit, it will be almost invisible but always with you. Answerer, most people who ask a question are doing so sitting in front of a computer. (Although Avian Carriers according to RFC 1149 are also getting supported) More often than not, this tends to be their own computer. So don't assume that the person wants to sell his/her machine and get a brand new one, rather they want to make the best out of what they have. While buying a computer may not sound much like a big deal to you, remember that not all people eat, drink and breathe computers, and to many people (hell, most people) in this world a computer is a big piece of value that they cannot buy every other day. If you must say that a hw item is not supported then say so, but in all other cases try to be reasonable. It is only in very limited circumstances that a machine is totally useless under FreeBSD, but even in these cases it is just good common sense to also offer the person advice on what other system might support his/her hardware. The person might find another use for the computer in which it is still useful as supported by FreeBSD etc. Remember, the person came here to try this OS most probably because he/she has heard success stories and nice things about it: he/she is inspired. Do not ruin that inspiration by being rude or condescending. This is the same inspiration that hooked you to computers way back when, after all, right? > 4) We feel it's reasonable to expect 2 weeks of your time understanding > FreeBSD. Of course, we mean the SAME kind of time that you would spend if > your boss would give you 2 weeks for a project, ie: 80 hours. We feel that > 80 hours can easily be divided up over a month's time of 3 hours every > evening getting to know FreeBSD. We figure that if you have prior computer > experience and you've spent 3 hours every evening attempting to install > FreeBSD for a month, then that's pretty reasonable for a brand new operating > system you've never seen before, and you will have a running system out of > it. 4) Poster, understand that getting to know a new system to the point when you can get useful things done on it requires time. You have already taken the first step: you are asking a question. This is good. But be aware that there will be many things for you to learn and to get used to. While there are supporting aids out there to help you, no one can do the actual learning for you. But believe me: Even if it sounds intimidating at first try, you will be all the richer for it when you look back later. Answerer, please be aware, that while this system may be an integral part of your life now, same is not true for everybody. After all, if they knew all the answers, they wouldn't bother to ask a question right? Asking is human and actually may be more work than you think: it involves realizing that you have a problem, analyzing that complex to make out possible components, identifying causes and consequences, and condensing your numerous "missing links" into an answerable short form (aka question) for another human being. Even if the question in front of you doesn't seem like a big deal, view it with the head of the person who sent it: it may be his/her best effort. If needed, ask for clarification, repeatedly if needed. Also remeber that while the documentation may contain a whole lot of useful answers, it is still "code" to which you have to have the underlying "key" to be able to dechiper. Some docs require more of this, some less. So, if needed, point the Poster to pieces of documentation that you think may be useful. But do not simply say: "Read the dox". Once you have the answers, it will be easy to find them in the docs, but until you don't... rather, you as someone who may have more knowledge than the Poster, should peruse the docs regularly to see if your knowledge is still current and to learn about possible quirks you may have not heard about. Even the best docs can profit from someone explaining them in a concise and efficient manner. This is what a human is superior to a machine that can simply keyword search. > 5) We expect that if your going to make unfavorable comparisons between > FreeBSD and other operating systems, that you are going to know FreeBSD > front, back, up, down, and sideways. In short, newbies that make a lot of > "Well, linnnuuxx has THIS and FreeBSD is so LAME for > not having it" kinds of remarks basically succeed in making themselves look > like idiots. 5) Poster, understand that this system may be different (or even very different) from what you know. But this doesn't mean that you cannot get the same things done here. But you will have to re-learn the ways of doing it. When asking a question, make sure that you are asking about your problem and not stating something that you do not know. People may react adversely to this and the whole thing is pointless anyway since you are in the same boat now. Being constructive helps, so that when you have cause for real criticism, it will be better received. Answerer, do not take every opportunity to flame a person for his/her criticism of your favourite piece of software/meaning of your life. Often behind this criticism there is a real problem and a desperation that the person cannot cope with it. Try to help with the problem ignoring the criticsm whenever possible. If needed, take a rest before answering, do something that will relax you. As responsible fan, you do not want to convey the image that your favourite project that you like is made up of a bunch of hooligans, do you? Also, since you have greater knowledge about the issues, you should see that since you are probably not talking about the same thing, there is no point in arguing to death. On the other hand if someone raises a real issue, be frank with them and tell that the criticism is grounded. Do not feel that they insult the project you like: a real fan knows both strengths and weaknesses of the team he is fond of. Simply repeating the "official propaganda line" here will not help, because people are going to feel that you are trying to smartass them, and may even ignore you or the project as "unprofessional" since a professional always knows his worth. > 6) We expect that your not going to be foolish enough to install an > operating system you know nothing about, and have no prior experience on > particular hardware with, onto a production system that has data on it you > want to keep. In short, a newbie installing <...> 6) Poster, be aware that making several OSs coexist on the same system is not an easy task. Prepare yourself: Make full bakcups because there is still a possibility that things might go wrong. Also, not everybody might be familiar with the system combination you want to try, so please be patient if at first nobody answers your question. If you feel uncertain about the procedure, please do not start it because this is a quick way to do damage to your system. Answerer, just because you would never run anoother OS on your computer do not flame someone who would like to. They may have divers reasons for doing so, eg they may want to retain their familiar environment for a while before finally switching over or they just want to evaluate something, or they have a piece of software that won't run on FreeBSD. Instead feel flattered that this person still wants to try your favourite OS. If you don't know how to solve the problem fine, stay tuned, maybe someone will and then you will have learned something as well. > 7) We expect that your not under some artificial time limit to have a > running FreeBSD system up. Like the saying goes, Your Lack Of Prepardness > Is Not Our Emergency. If you boss just came to you and told you to get a > FreeBSD system up and running in 2 weeks, and you've never seen a FreeBSD > system before, well then there's a lot of jobs out there looking for people, > we are sure you can find something in 2 weeks. Seriously, trying to learn > something under pressure is not the way to do things. There's companies > that sell prebuilt FreeBSD servers if you really are in this situation. > 8) Finally, and most importantly, we expect that you have a CLEAR IDEA of > what kind of problem your going to solve by setting up FreeBSD, and that > your POSITIVE that setting up > FreeBSD is going to solve it. 9) Finally and most importantly, if you ask a question, be aware that someone (likely several persons) will have to invest time and resources into finding out what your question was and if they will help you. Remember, in this context only what you say exists of you. People will judge you on the basis of what you say and how. Since you are either already running FreeBSD or want to do it, it is not indifferent what they will think about you. If you answer a question, then do it for real. Don't waste everybody's resources and time by giving seemingly "cute" answers. If you do not want to answer, then don't do it. No one is forcing you. It is just too easy to vent your frustration by kicking the person next to you, but don't do it no matter if you ask or answer. In addition to being bad manners, this doesn't even make sense. Today's askers may be tomorrow's answerers, and vice versa. No matter what you do while with us at the Project, always think about whetether based on the above, this group would want you as a fan? -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 7:10:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5433737B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 07:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wcp@pelissero.org) Received: from smtp1.cluster1.telinco.net ([212.1.128.150]) by smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14zJ3F-000BFI-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:10:21 +0100 Received: from daemon.lpds.sublink.org (ppp-1-170.cvx1.telinco.net [212.1.136.170]) by smtp1.cluster1.telinco.net (8.11.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4EEAld38646; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:10:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from pelissero.org (hyde.lpds.sublink.org [10.0.0.2]) by daemon.lpds.sublink.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA49367; Mon, 14 May 2001 14:54:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from wcp@pelissero.org) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08601; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:06:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from wcp) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:06:15 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200105141406.PAA08601@pelissero.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Walter C. Pelissero" Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: is distribution sinking? X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 13) "Crater Lake" XEmacs Lucid X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm writing this as a sort of open letter to the FreeBSD community because I belive my concerns may be shared by a big part of it. Last year I decided to discontinue my subscription to the FreeBSD CDROM. I've been subscribed since almost the first CDROM issue (on single media at that time). My decision wasn't easy and didn't come out of technical or religious motivations. It was mainly bad customer support. Actually, the problems arised one day when I received a letter stating that Walnut Creek had problems with my credit card and they where expecting the payment of the last shippment (items I never received). Well, not a big deal. I mailed the required informations and asked informations about the never-delivered CDs. No answer. Ok, I assumed the subscription would come in effect starting with the next issue. Nope. Since then I never received anything (but I haven't been charged for anything) and all my e-mails have been ignored. Ok, I let my subscription got frogotten. Recently I tried to buy a 4.3 distribution from a local store (London, UK) and while they had all the releases up to 4.1 they told me they had problems with the last one. They suspect this is due to the recent take over of BSDi (once again). I don't know if FreeBSD is distributed by anyone else but WC/BSDi. My impression is that currently the FreeBSD distribution is slowly sinking. In the meanwhile it turns up that NetBSD and OpenBSD CD distributions are more easily available than FreeBSD so I see myself forced to switch to one of them. -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 7:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from athena.za.net (athena.za.net [196.30.167.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFE837B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 07:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jus@athena.za.net) Received: from jus (helo=localhost) by athena.za.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 14zJ7U-0001fU-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:14:44 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:14:44 +0200 (SAST) From: Justin Stanford X-Sender: jus@athena.za.net To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? In-Reply-To: <200105141406.PAA08601@pelissero.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perhaps commercial distribution is not up to scratch, but it is still as easy as ever to get the ISO image and make one's own CD in as large a quantity as one's heart desires - or simply download the distributions of choice and use mkisofs or something similar to create your own image, or do an FTP or other type of install. -- Justin Stanford 082 7402741 jus@security.za.net www.security.za.net IT Security and Solutions On Mon, 14 May 2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: > I'm writing this as a sort of open letter to the FreeBSD community > because I belive my concerns may be shared by a big part of it. > > Last year I decided to discontinue my subscription to the FreeBSD > CDROM. I've been subscribed since almost the first CDROM issue (on > single media at that time). My decision wasn't easy and didn't come > out of technical or religious motivations. It was mainly bad customer > support. > > Actually, the problems arised one day when I received a letter stating > that Walnut Creek had problems with my credit card and they where > expecting the payment of the last shippment (items I never received). > > Well, not a big deal. I mailed the required informations and asked > informations about the never-delivered CDs. No answer. Ok, I assumed > the subscription would come in effect starting with the next issue. > Nope. > > Since then I never received anything (but I haven't been charged for > anything) and all my e-mails have been ignored. Ok, I let my > subscription got frogotten. > > Recently I tried to buy a 4.3 distribution from a local store (London, > UK) and while they had all the releases up to 4.1 they told me they > had problems with the last one. They suspect this is due to the > recent take over of BSDi (once again). > > I don't know if FreeBSD is distributed by anyone else but WC/BSDi. My > impression is that currently the FreeBSD distribution is slowly > sinking. > > In the meanwhile it turns up that NetBSD and OpenBSD CD distributions > are more easily available than FreeBSD so I see myself forced to > switch to one of them. > > -- > walter pelissero > http://www.pelissero.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 7:36:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DACC37B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 07:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4EEabx61861; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:36:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFFED74.A2EDE0C1@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:36:36 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: walter@pelissero.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? References: <200105141406.PAA08601@pelissero.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Actually, the problems arised one day when I received a letter stating > that Walnut Creek had problems with my credit card and they where > expecting the payment of the last shippment (items I never received). > I had the same problem. They said my CC was declined, but I never got a message saying so. The girl who replied to my query was _rather_ curt as well. They never said I owed them for a non-existent shipment, but I never was alerted to their supposed problems with my CC. I gave them another CC to use, just in case, but nothing happened again until I queried, and I got the same somewhat-obnoxious sort of reply that my CC had been declined. Now, the card I gave them the second time could have been used to buy a battleship on credit, okay? In other words, pure bs. [snip] > > Recently I tried to buy a 4.3 distribution from a local store (London, > UK) and while they had all the releases up to 4.1 they told me they > had problems with the last one. They suspect this is due to the > recent take over of BSDi (once again). > > I don't know if FreeBSD is distributed by anyone else but WC/BSDi. My > impression is that currently the FreeBSD distribution is slowly > sinking. > We here in the States can buy Complete FreeBSD+CD packages from Barnes and Noble, and LIC they had current stock. > In the meanwhile it turns up that NetBSD and OpenBSD CD distributions > are more easily available than FreeBSD so I see myself forced to > switch to one of them. > I concur that there have been distribution problems, but that's not a good basis on which to choose your operating system. If you choose your OS due to the availability of CDs, might I suggest that you also look at a wonderfully-well packaged product from a company called Microsoft? It's available everywhere, and millions of people all over the world think it's the greatest thing since the invention of the Big Mac. ;-) Seriously, Net and Open are both good products. They each have their strong points and their weaknesses. Nobody is "forcing" you to switch, and nobody is going to cry if you do. I personally think both the cross-fertilization and the "competition" between the BSD camps is a Good Thing. Please visit http://www.daemonnews.org for abundant evidence and commentary on all sides of this issue. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 8:17:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BED637B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wcp@pelissero.org) Received: from smtp1.cluster1.telinco.net ([212.1.128.150]) by smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14zK5R-000CvY-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:16:41 +0100 Received: from daemon.lpds.sublink.org (ppp-2-196.cvx2.telinco.net [212.1.141.196]) by smtp1.cluster1.telinco.net (8.11.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4EFH9d56014; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:17:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from pelissero.org (hyde.lpds.sublink.org [10.0.0.2]) by daemon.lpds.sublink.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49498; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:03:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from wcp@pelissero.org) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08871; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:13:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from wcp) From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15103.63012.350812.154664@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:13:40 +0100 To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? In-Reply-To: <3AFFED74.A2EDE0C1@Silver-Lynx.com> References: <200105141406.PAA08601@pelissero.org> <3AFFED74.A2EDE0C1@Silver-Lynx.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 13) "Crater Lake" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde writes: > I concur that there have been distribution problems, but that's not > a good basis on which to choose your operating system. If you > choose your OS due to the availability of CDs, might I suggest that > you also look at a wonderfully-well packaged product from a company > called Microsoft? It's available everywhere, and millions of > people all over the world think it's the greatest thing since the > invention of the Big Mac. ;-) I might have been misunderstood. With my statement I didn't want to say that FreeBSD is a bad OS because not well distributed elswere than within the US. As I said it's not a technical issue that made me think about switching OS, but simply the unavailability in the place I happen to live (London). This doesn't involve any opinion on the quality of the OS itself. Regarding the choice. Well, it seems to me that I can't choose a Porsche if I don't have the money to buy one, even if I belive it's the best car in the world. Likewise I can't choose an OS that is not available. Therefore, even if the basis of my choice is technical, I have to face practical reality to have it realized, or I just keep on wishfully thinking. Downloading the CDROM images is unfortunately not an option for me. I belive it's the same for the majority of the distribution subscribers, or there would be no point in buying the CDs in the first place. -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 8:28:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bubble.via-net-works.ie (bubble.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B728337B423; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from aftereight.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.34.16] helo=cooperationireland.org) by bubble.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #2) id 14zKGx-0007r9-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:28:36 +0000 Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4EFSWT77628; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:28:34 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010514162837.00831930@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:28:37 +0100 To: walter@pelissero.org From: Mike Doyle Subject: Availablity in UK (WAS Re: is distribution sinking?) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <15103.63012.350812.154664@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> References: <3AFFED74.A2EDE0C1@Silver-Lynx.com> <200105141406.PAA08601@pelissero.org> <3AFFED74.A2EDE0C1@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 16:13 14/05/01 +0100, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: > > I might have been misunderstood. With my statement I didn't want to > say that FreeBSD is a bad OS because not well distributed elswere than > within the US. As I said it's not a technical issue that made me > think about switching OS, but simply the unavailability in the place I > happen to live (London). This doesn't involve any opinion on the > quality of the OS itself. I found that Public Domain Software ( http://www.pdsl.com/ ) are a fairly reliable re-distributor in the UK. They accept CC orders, and postage from them costs quite a bit less than from WC/BSDi in the USA. They got their shipment of 4.2 CDs from WC/BSDi about 6 weeks after it was released in the USA. <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 10:31:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355CA37B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA2E6D; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:31:37 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > THE WORK! :-) Getting a "default" desktop added to sysinstall would be rather like pulling teeth. After all, it already has an item to choose a default desktop. And if you do a standard install (which I haven't done in a while, so it may have changed), that question is posed to the installee. Thus, that side of the suggestion is already handled. The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at it). No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 10:48:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A16A37B42C for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:48:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA3B72; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:54:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3B001A7F.CD39EB45@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:48:47 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: walter@pelissero.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? References: <200105141406.PAA08601@pelissero.org> <3AFFED74.A2EDE0C1@Silver-Lynx.com> <15103.63012.350812.154664@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Walter C. Pelissero" wrote: > Downloading the CDROM images is unfortunately not an option for me. I > belive it's the same for the majority of the distribution subscribers, > or there would be no point in buying the CDs in the first place. There are many other avenues to purchase FreeBSD CDs from. Linuxmall, Cheapbytes, etc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 10:52:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C34237B43C for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 5F27A11; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACA849A13; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:52:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: David Johnson Cc: walter@pelissero.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? In-Reply-To: <3B001A7F.CD39EB45@acuson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don't forget Daemon News Mall :-) Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org On Mon, 14 May 2001, David Johnson wrote: > "Walter C. Pelissero" wrote: > > > Downloading the CDROM images is unfortunately not an option for me. I > > belive it's the same for the majority of the distribution subscribers, > > or there would be no point in buying the CDs in the first place. > > There are many other avenues to purchase FreeBSD CDs from. Linuxmall, > Cheapbytes, etc. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 16:18:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEDD37B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F210466C04; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:02 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: David Johnson Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514161802.A45751@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:31:37AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:31:37AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. > Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would > install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for > FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > it). Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. > No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. > The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in > the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. Well, it's not going to be me..I already spend more time on FreeBSD than I can count, if I had the time I would already have done it long ago. Kris --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7AGeqWry0BWjoQKURAv77AJwN82NS1r//U/EICROXfr7oI93akQCeOHSJ G1YJ+StHhXmLWooe38M8urY= =9T0P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 16:37:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.baycis.com (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9B337B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from localhost (ggong@localhost) by ggong.baycis.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4ENbBp42583; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: ggong.baycis.com: ggong owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Gilbert Gong X-Sender: ggong@ggong.baycis.com To: Kris Kennaway Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving In-Reply-To: <20010514161802.A45751@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think I would be willing to give this a try. Gilbert On Mon, 14 May 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:31:37AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > > > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > > specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. > > Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would > > install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for > > FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > > it). > > Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. > > > No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. > > The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in > > the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. > > Well, it's not going to be me..I already spend more time on FreeBSD > than I can count, if I had the time I would already have done it long > ago. > > Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 16:45:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3B637B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6EB3866DF0; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:31 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Gilbert Gong Cc: Kris Kennaway , David Johnson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514164530.A46382@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010514161802.A45751@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:37:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:37:11PM -0700, Gilbert Gong wrote: > I think I would be willing to give this a try. Sounds good. You don't even have to go all the way to making it a port/package; if you can just point some of the ports@ guys at a set of working global configuration files for whatever WM you're customizing, it may be enough. Kris --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7AG4aWry0BWjoQKURAkCcAJ9FdWSvmWmTG688Sj07iRtL8SvpYACgiQ7y 87MIeZBCMpyofOeJOV0vkrg= =tuSH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 18: 0: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin5.bigpond.com (juicer02.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7F037B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.53]) by mailin5.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDCR0O00.4VS; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:05:12 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Bizarre-MailRouter V2.9c 13/2566796); 15 May 2001 11:00:02 Message-ID: <020b01c0dcda$581e35d0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "David Johnson" , "Kris Kennaway" Cc: , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:59:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From my extremely limited (and somewhat unsatisfactory) experience in attempting to coerce X into a functional state, I see the problem as more of a hardware rather than a software issue. Whilst there isn't any question that making things more straightforward software wise is a_very_good_thing, there does appear to be something lacking in the videocard detection routing. Its been suggested by some that this is is more of an XFree rather than a FreeBSD issue, and although I can see the logic in this argument I'm certain that many raw newbies would fail to understand the distinction. I'm flat out like the proverbial lizard drinking for the next week or so, but I'll have a poke around the XFree & linux docs sometime and hopefully come up with something I can kick into shape for a submission to docs > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > > THE WORK! :-) > > Getting a "default" desktop added to sysinstall would be rather like > pulling teeth. After all, it already has an item to choose a default > desktop. And if you do a standard install (which I haven't done in a > while, so it may have changed), that question is posed to the installee. > Thus, that side of the suggestion is already handled. > > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. > Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would > install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for > FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > it). > > No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. > The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in > the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 19:48:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE0C37B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4F2mNk43201; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , "Don Wilde" Cc: , Subject: RE: is distribution sinking? Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:48:23 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c0dce9$82292880$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15103.63012.350812.154664@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Walter, C'mon, your living in the largest city in the world, there must be at least one or two other FreeBSD users that you could form a user group with, or at least who would be happy to burn you off a copy of the CD. While there's a lot of advantages to a world-wide mailing list like freebsd-chat, there's also some advantages of a smaller, local mailing list/user group too. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Walter C. >Pelissero >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:14 AM >To: Don Wilde >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? > > >Don Wilde writes: > > I concur that there have been distribution problems, but that's not > > a good basis on which to choose your operating system. If you > > choose your OS due to the availability of CDs, might I suggest that > > you also look at a wonderfully-well packaged product from a company > > called Microsoft? It's available everywhere, and millions of > > people all over the world think it's the greatest thing since the > > invention of the Big Mac. ;-) > >I might have been misunderstood. With my statement I didn't want to >say that FreeBSD is a bad OS because not well distributed elswere than >within the US. As I said it's not a technical issue that made me >think about switching OS, but simply the unavailability in the place I >happen to live (London). This doesn't involve any opinion on the >quality of the OS itself. > >Regarding the choice. Well, it seems to me that I can't choose a >Porsche if I don't have the money to buy one, even if I belive it's >the best car in the world. Likewise I can't choose an OS that is not >available. Therefore, even if the basis of my choice is technical, I >have to face practical reality to have it realized, or I just keep on >wishfully thinking. > >Downloading the CDROM images is unfortunately not an option for me. I >belive it's the same for the majority of the distribution subscribers, >or there would be no point in buying the CDs in the first place. > >-- >walter pelissero >http://www.pelissero.org > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 14 19:59:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from salesforce.com (nat-63-150-46-70.salesforce.com [63.150.46.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEE637B423; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from ggongws (ggong-ws.internal.salesforce.com [10.0.15.25]) by salesforce.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f4F2xaJ02728; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <005501c0dceb$140e4a40$190f000a@ggongws> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: , Subject: license plate Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:59:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While browsing the web, and coming across these: http://www.unix-systems.org/unix_plates.html I decided to hack this up, for fun: http://ggong.baycis.com/public/unixlike_plate.jpg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 1:12:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E0837B422; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0356.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.193.101]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00533; Tue, 15 May 2001 04:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:12:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson wrote: > Getting a "default" desktop added to sysinstall would be > rather like pulling teeth. After all, it already has an > item to choose a default desktop. And if you do a standard > install (which I haven't done in a while, so it may have > changed), that question is posed to the installee. > Thus, that side of the suggestion is already handled. > > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > specificity. That can easily be done without changing > existing packages. Just create new metapackages. As an > example: kde-newbie. This would install the basic kde > metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for FreeBSD > documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > it). This is really insufficient, I think. Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire install process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. Something about guaranteeing a consistent (-ly bad?) user experience. For a large number of users, it doesn't matter which graphical environment you pick to install by default, so long as you pick one and do it. Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging system is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a non-graphical login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe Average User... It is no wonder no one ever rises to the "well make a package for it" challenge: it has very little value that translates into anything good for the user. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 3:36:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF4637B422; Tue, 15 May 2001 03:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wcp@pelissero.org) Received: from smtp2.cluster1.telinco.net ([212.1.128.151]) by smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 14zcBL-000C5Z-00; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:35:59 +0100 Received: from daemon.lpds.sublink.org (ppp-1-155.cvx6.telinco.net [212.1.156.155]) by smtp2.cluster1.telinco.net (8.11.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4FAaQv88800; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:36:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from pelissero.org (hyde.lpds.sublink.org [10.0.0.2]) by daemon.lpds.sublink.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA50614; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:22:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from wcp@pelissero.org) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09839; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:34:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from wcp) From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15105.1600.661599.725253@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:34:40 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is distribution sinking? In-Reply-To: References: <3B001A7F.CD39EB45@acuson.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 13) "Crater Lake" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok. It turned out that it was me not knowing other distributors of FreeBSD: I've been a WC/BSDi subscriber for too long time. :-) Actually, a brief search with Google listed only a few shops that *used* to have FreeBSD or get it once in a while. I especially thank Mike Doyle (relyod@cooperationireland.org) who pointed out a distributor in UK. -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 10:33:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9450E37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08700; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515112511.045e75b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:29:28 -0600 To: brett@lariat.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This just in: Opera Software is porting their browser to QNX, an operating system most frequently used for embedded work, but still does not officially support any of the BSDs... despite the fact that the latter operating systems have a much larger installed base. Here's the press release: Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:47:19 +0200 From: Live Leer Subject: IBM Goes for Opera Opera signals lead in the Internet appliance market: IBM Goes for Opera OSLO - May 15, 2001 - Opera Software today announced that IBM has chose Opera 5.0 for QNX for their NetVista Internet Appliance. This is Opera's first major contract for its newly developed Opera for QNX browser, and another confirmation that the industry's largest players are joining forces with Opera. Earlier Opera has announced partnerships with industry leaders such as AMD, Ericsson, Psion, and Be. "Signing with IBM is a major breakthrough for Opera Software," says Jon S. von Tetzchner, CEO, Opera Software. "Today's announcement is the first in a series that will show that Opera has taken the lead in the Internet appliance market." Opera 5.0 for QNX is a new platform for the Opera Web browser. QNX brings the total number of Opera platforms up to six; Windows, Linux, MacOS, EPOC, BeOS/BeIA, and now QNX. Opera started developing for QNX after being approached by IBM in November 2000. "The fast development cycle that we managed for IBM was in great part due to Opera's unique cross-platform technology," says Hakon Lie, CTO, Opera Software. "We have in a very short time managed give the QNX platform a browser that is both fast, stable, and full-featured." In most cases, embedded Internet devices are also memory-constrained, and the platforms and applications that run on them have to be scaled to fit the device. Opera is the ideal Web browser choice for the embedded market, based on its characteristics of being small, fast, configurable, while still full-featured. The unique cross-platform core enables the browser to be easily ported to other emerging platforms, and simplifies overall maintenance. Opera for QNX will be made available for public download in the weeks to come. Editor's note: For a photograph of IBM's NetVista Internet Appliance see http://www.ibm.com/pressphoto.nsf/photoview under "NetVista" About Opera Software Opera Software AS is an industry leader in the development of Web browsers for the desktop and device markets. The Opera browser has received international recognition from users and the industry press for being faster, smaller and more standards-compliant than other browsers. Opera Software AS is a privately held company headquartered in Oslo, Norway. Learn more about Opera at www.opera.com Contact: Pal A. Hvistendahl, Communications Manager, pal@opera.com, +47 99 72 4331 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 10:38:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F0C37B424 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id TAA10054; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:38:05 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14ziln-0004QB-00 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:38:03 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:38:03 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD Message-ID: <20010515193803.B15886@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515112511.045e75b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515112511.045e75b0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 11:29:28AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 11:29:28AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: [Brett, do you have an own small mailing list that you sent this to, or did you use Bcc? In any event, you just made it impossible for most people to just hit "Reply" to answer to this and have it go to the list. Thanks!] > This just in: Opera Software is porting their browser to QNX, an > operating system most frequently used for embedded work, but still does > not officially support any of the BSDs... despite the fact that the > latter operating systems have a much larger installed base. Here's the > press release: <...> OK. Who is going to pay the FreeBSD version development? I bet IBM payed up for the development costs... -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 11: 7:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7152F37B42C for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:07:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4FI7HR79033 ; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:07:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA15748 ; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:07:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:07:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Szilveszter Adam Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD Message-ID: <20010515200739.D14201@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515112511.045e75b0@localhost> <20010515193803.B15886@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010515193803.B15886@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>; from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 07:38:03PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Szilveszter Adam said on May 15, 2001 at 19:38:03: > > This just in: Opera Software is porting their browser to QNX, an > > operating system most frequently used for embedded work, but still does > > not officially support any of the BSDs... despite the fact that the > > latter operating systems have a much larger installed base. Here's the > > press release: > <...> > > OK. Who is going to pay the FreeBSD version development? I bet IBM payed up > for the development costs... Incidentally, the press release for the linux version mentions testing on NetBSD, together with various distributions of linux. I don't know in what sense the browser is "supported", on any platform. http://lwn.net/daily/opera50.php3 - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 11:11:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61C537B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19377; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:09:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1CaGGL; Tue May 15 11:09:22 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28441; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:12:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au (Doug Young) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:12:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: djohnson@acuson.com (David Johnson), kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <020b01c0dcda$581e35d0$0300a8c0@oracle> from "Doug Young" at May 15, 2001 10:59:49 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From my extremely limited (and somewhat unsatisfactory) experience > in> attempting to coerce X into a functional state, I see the problem > as more of a hardware rather than a software issue. Whilst there > isn't any question that making things more straightforward software > wise is a_very_good_thing, there does appear to be something > lacking in the videocard detection routing. Its been suggested by > some that this is is more of an XFree rather than a FreeBSD issue, > and although I can see the logic in this argument I'm certain that > many raw newbies would fail to understand the distinction. This is a FreeBSD issue. If FreeBSD were to go to GGI and KGI (most of the drivers and all of the interesting code is under the X license), then video modes for all supported cards, and INT 10 BIOS modes up through VESA2 would "just work". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 11:21: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB1A37B422 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:21:44 -0400 Message-ID: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A66831F@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:22:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD6C.002BF0A0" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD6C.002BF0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I use Opera on my 4.2 system. I haven't had a problem with it. The documentation is good. There are a few things that are quirky since it running under Linux emulation. There are some feature missing from the Linux port that exists on the windows version, but hay it free and it much faster than anything I have ever used. I don't think a direct version is all that necessary at this moment I don't think it would be and get enhancement over running it in the linux mode. Roderick P. Person Programmer II (412)454-2616 personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com "I don't believe in Violence, I don't even believe in peace." -Under the Sun, Black Sabbath > -----Original Message----- > From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] > Sent: May 15, 2001 2:08 PM > To: Szilveszter Adam > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD > > > Szilveszter Adam said on May 15, 2001 at 19:38:03: > > > This just in: Opera Software is porting their browser to QNX, an > > > operating system most frequently used for embedded work, > but still does > > > not officially support any of the BSDs... despite the > fact that the > > > latter operating systems have a much larger installed > base. Here's the > > > press release: > > <...> > > > > OK. Who is going to pay the FreeBSD version development? I > bet IBM payed up > > for the development costs... > > Incidentally, the press release for the linux version mentions testing > on NetBSD, together with various distributions of linux. I don't know > in what sense the browser is "supported", on any platform. > > http://lwn.net/daily/opera50.php3 > > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD6C.002BF0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD

I use Opera on my 4.2 system. I haven't had a problem = with it. The documentation is good.
There are a few things that are quirky since it = running under Linux emulation.
There are some feature missing from the Linux port = that exists on the windows version, but hay it free and it much faster = than anything I have ever used. I don't think a direct version is all = that necessary at this moment I don't think it would be and get = enhancement over running it in the linux mode.

Roderick P. Person
Programmer II
(412)454-2616
personrp@ccbh.com
http://www.ccbh.com

"I don't believe in Violence, I don't even = believe in peace."
 -Under the Sun, Black Sabbath




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.er= net.in]
> Sent: May 15, 2001 2:08 PM
> To: Szilveszter Adam
> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: Opera ports to QNX but not = BSD
>
>
> Szilveszter Adam said on May 15, 2001 at = 19:38:03:
> > > This just in: Opera Software is = porting their browser to QNX, an
> > > operating system most frequently used = for embedded work,
> but still does
> > > not officially support any of the = BSDs... despite the
> fact that the
> > > latter operating systems have a much = larger installed
> base. Here's the
> > > press release:
> > <...>
> >
> > OK. Who is going to pay the FreeBSD = version development? I
> bet IBM payed up
> > for the development costs...
>
> Incidentally, the press release for the linux = version mentions testing
> on NetBSD, together with various distributions = of linux.  I don't know
> in what sense the browser is = "supported", on any platform.
>
> http://lwn.net/daily/opera50.php3
>
> - Rahul
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to = majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" = in the body of the message
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD6C.002BF0A0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 11:33:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B0C37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA741B; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:39:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:33:30 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > This is really insufficient, I think. Okay, you pushed by hot button... If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured for newbies, to be standard on each and every install, then you have to start somewhere. In the mean time, it may be prudent to consider that some folks don't want a standard default desktop, let alone one preconfigured for newbies. > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire install > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this. The closest suggestions were to improve what was already there. Using a port is still operating within "the system". No one needs to burn their own newbie-CDs. Going up to the core team and saying "we want you to change x, y and z, is doomed to failure. However, getting a port committed is easy. Then you can go up to the core team and say "we want you to change just x because y and z are already on the CD". Presumably "x" would be another option in the "choose desktop" menu. > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging system > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a non-graphical > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe Average > User... Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for Windows, because his computer manufacturer has done it for him already. His idea of "installation" is handing his credit card over to the cashier. FreeBSD is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only seems harder because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new machine. Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk to the Windows fdisk... And there have been many times when I wished Windows had a non-graphical login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up because the video isn't configured right, and I can't configure the video right because I can't boot up Windows... The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices is the control the user has over the system. Much of this control comes through choice. If you eliminate this choice you destroy the control, and FreeBSD loses it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory desktop, then the GNOME user has to go through the completely pointless process of uninstalling KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it around just to take up space. And vice versa. And why should those wanting a firewall have to endure KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11? It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want X11, and then if I answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. This is how the process currently works. The original posting on this subject (at least how I interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default desktop if no other desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons and menu items to the desktop packages that point to the FreeBSD documentation. The first is a decision to be made by the core team. The second can be done by anyone by submitting a port. In fact, now that I think about it, you could call this port "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific icons and menu items to any installed desktop that it detects. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 12:25: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web11705.mail.yahoo.com (web11705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3CE7937B422 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperlin@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.200.148.220] by web11705.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Erlin Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: David Johnson , tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All of this conversation seems to center on the fact/assumption that there is/can be only one distribution of FreeBSD. I would think that if the target market were Joe Average, a 'Consumer' version might be offered. It could include things like suggested defaults for the most basic functionality, installation with pretty pictures, etc. I've never gotten the sense (after maybe 6 months of actually using FreeBSD) that anybody wanted FreeBSD on my parent's PC. I haven't been reading the advocacy list, so maybe I missed it, but I certainly didn't install FreeBSD because I thought it would make a great workstation. Of course, the guy who started this thread wasn't looking to replace his NT workstations either, if I recall... --Tim --- David Johnson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This is really insufficient, I think. > > Okay, you pushed by hot button... > > If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured > for newbies, to be > standard on each and every install, then you have to > start somewhere. In > the mean time, it may be prudent to consider that > some folks don't want > a standard default desktop, let alone one > preconfigured for newbies. > > > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire > install > > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it > > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. > > No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this. > The closest > suggestions were to improve what was already there. > Using a port is > still operating within "the system". No one needs to > burn their own > newbie-CDs. > > Going up to the core team and saying "we want you to > change x, y and z, > is doomed to failure. However, getting a port > committed is easy. Then > you can go up to the core team and say "we want you > to change just x > because y and z are already on the CD". Presumably > "x" would be another > option in the "choose desktop" menu. > > > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging > system > > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the > > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a > non-graphical > > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe > Average > > User... > > Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for > Windows, because his > computer manufacturer has done it for him already. > His idea of > "installation" is handing his credit card over to > the cashier. FreeBSD > is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only > seems harder > because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new > machine. > > Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk > to the Windows > fdisk... > > And there have been many times when I wished Windows > had a non-graphical > login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up > because the video > isn't configured right, and I can't configure the > video right because I > can't boot up Windows... > > The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices > is the control the > user has over the system. Much of this control comes > through choice. If > you eliminate this choice you destroy the control, > and FreeBSD loses > it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory > desktop, then the GNOME > user has to go through the completely pointless > process of uninstalling > KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it around > just to take up space. > And vice versa. And why should those wanting a > firewall have to endure > KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11? > > It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want > X11, and then if I > answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. This > is how the process > currently works. The original posting on this > subject (at least how I > interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default > desktop if no other > desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons and menu items > to the desktop > packages that point to the FreeBSD documentation. > The first is a > decision to be made by the core team. The second can > be done by anyone > by submitting a port. > > In fact, now that I think about it, you could call > this port > "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific > icons and menu > items to any installed desktop that it detects. > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of > the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 13: 9: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC6937B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4FK91x39533; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:09:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B018CD5.ABFEB7D5@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:08:53 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gilbert Gong Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: license plate References: <005501c0dceb$140e4a40$190f000a@ggongws> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gilbert Gong wrote: > > While browsing the web, and coming across these: > http://www.unix-systems.org/unix_plates.html > I decided to hack this up, for fun: > http://ggong.baycis.com/public/unixlike_plate.jpg Hmmm... Seems New Hampshire is backing away from that honorable sentiment, so I'd call it appropriate to appropriate their slogan. Let's go the rest of the way to 'LIVE FREE OR DIE... FreeBSD' :-) If we can get THEM stamped, I'd buy a bunch! -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 14:30:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD71F37B422 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:30:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14zmOp-0003sY-01; Tue, 15 May 2001 23:30:35 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4FL8AR80414 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 23:08:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Opera ports to QNX but not BSD Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:08:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9ds5ro$2e4o$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515112511.045e75b0@localhost> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > This just in: Opera Software is porting their browser to QNX, an > operating system most frequently used for embedded work, but still does > not officially support any of the BSDs... Somebody's been coughing up money for a QNX port. Feel free to contract Opera to make a port to your BSD platform of choice. Also see http://www.opera.com/linux/faq.html#oth FWIW, I've been playing around with Opera for Linux/i386 on OpenBSD/i386 2.9, and it appears to work fine with the compatibility layer. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 15:27:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin9.bigpond.com (juicer34.bigpond.com [139.134.6.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB4237B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin9.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDEEM400.AEY; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:32:28 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Assertive-MailRouter V2.9c 1/4729612); 16 May 2001 08:27:37 Message-ID: <04ed01c0dd8e$2c57f3f0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Tim Erlin" , "David Johnson" , Cc: , References: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:27:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I've never gotten the sense (after maybe 6 months of > actually using FreeBSD) that anybody wanted FreeBSD on > my parent's PC. I haven't been reading the advocacy > list, so maybe I missed it, but I certainly didn't > install FreeBSD because I thought it would make a > great workstation. > > To be even halfway practical as a workstation for many people a workable Win9x emulator would be essential ... last time I looked, none of them was past pre-alpha quality. Has anything changed recently ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 15:31:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin2.email.bigpond.com (juicer14.bigpond.com [139.134.6.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F02837B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin2.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDEETW00.0QT; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:37:08 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Caring-MailRouter V2.9c 1/4731019); 16 May 2001 08:32:17 Message-ID: <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "David Johnson" , "Kris Kennaway" , , References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:31:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is a FreeBSD issue. > > If FreeBSD were to go to GGI and KGI (most of the drivers and all > of the interesting code is under the X license), then video modes > for all supported cards, and INT 10 BIOS modes up through VESA2 > would "just work". > You've lost me there ..... WTF are "GGI" & "KGI" ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 15:41:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECE237B424 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:41:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA1F6C; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:47:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3B01B090.D0AC2397@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:41:20 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> <04ed01c0dd8e$2c57f3f0$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Young wrote: > To be even halfway practical as a workstation for many people > a workable Win9x emulator would be essential ... last time I > looked, none of them was past pre-alpha quality. Has anything > changed recently ?? Hmmm, at work we have Solaris workstations. At least Sun calls them workstations, and IT calls them workstations. But they don't have any Windows emulation of any sort. There is an Citrix server available to read the HR memos with. But Citrix ICA Launch is available for FreeBSD as well, IIRC. Perhaps I am confused by the term "workstation". I don't take it to mean a consumer-oriented PC, but as a computer geared towards doing general day-to-day work. Depending upon what your work is, FreeBSD fits the bill. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 15:48:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin3.email.bigpond.com (juicer24.bigpond.com [139.134.6.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2BD37B424 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.51]) by mailin3.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDEFM800.AA2; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:54:08 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail7.bigpond.com (Claudes-Bashful-MailRouter V2.9c 15/11874648); 16 May 2001 08:49:12 Message-ID: <052001c0dd91$33690190$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "David Johnson" Cc: References: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> <04ed01c0dd8e$2c57f3f0$0300a8c0@oracle> <3B01B090.D0AC2397@acuson.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:48:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Perhaps I am confused by the term "workstation". I don't take it to mean > a consumer-oriented PC, but as a computer geared towards doing general > day-to-day work. Depending upon what your work is, FreeBSD fits the > bill. > One of my clients has a mixed O/S network with the almost traditional FreeBSD gateways / W2K servers / Win9x workstations arrangement. A large percentage of business is done over the net, so we are always concerned about the risk of virii / trojans etc. Obviously moving the workstations to Solaris / FreeBSD / etc would fix that problem immediately, however its impractical because of the number of applications that ONLY work in Windows. Among these are the various accounting / business management programs , plus security / surveillance / process monitoring applications. I've messed with a few emulators but none of them are halfway usable. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 16:11:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9452537B42C for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA2E5D; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:17:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B01B79B.CD648ABE@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:11:23 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> <04ed01c0dd8e$2c57f3f0$0300a8c0@oracle> <3B01B090.D0AC2397@acuson.com> <052001c0dd91$33690190$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Young wrote: > applications that ONLY work in Windows. Among these are the various > accounting / business management programs , plus security / > surveillance / process monitoring applications. I've messed with a few > emulators but none of them are halfway usable. Try ICA Launch. It's not an emulator. You run Windows on a server somewhere, and Solaris/FreeBSD clients connect to it through ICA Launch. The Windows application runs in an X11 window. Sort of an anti-X server. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 15 17:37:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465A037B42C for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anthony@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.15.37] (helo=anthony.dsl.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14zpJs-0007Qy-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:37:40 -0600 Received: (from anthony@localhost) by anthony.dsl.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01318 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:38:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anthony) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:38:23 -0600 From: "Anthony C. Chavez" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Fate has struck a cruel blow... Message-ID: <20010515173822.A1305@xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For those that don't already know... http://www.douglasadams.com/ -- anthony@xmission.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Measure with a micrometer. Mark with chalk. Cut with an axe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 1:53:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4173A37B422; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0141.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.141]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16994; Wed, 16 May 2001 04:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B023FFC.A1EC1F0C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:53:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This is really insufficient, I think. > > Okay, you pushed by hot button... > > If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured for newbies, > to be standard on each and every install, then you have to > start somewhere. In the mean time, it may be prudent to consider > that some folks don't want a standard default desktop, let alone > one preconfigured for newbies. Yeah; we already have those weenies in our market segment; we don't need to care about capturing them, we need to capture the people we _don't_ have. > > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire install > > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it > > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. > > No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this. The > closest suggestions were to improve what was already there. I _am_ suggesting that... other people have suggested it in the past. > Using a port is still operating within "the system". No one > needs to burn their own newbie-CDs. Operating "within the system" is not useful to those users we are interested in capturing. > > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging system > > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the > > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a non-graphical > > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe Average > > User... > > Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for Windows, > because his computer manufacturer has done it for him already. Exactly. > His idea of "installation" is handing his credit card over > to the cashier. FreeBSD is already *easier* to install than > Windows. It only seems harder because it doesn't come > preinstalled with your new machine. Again, exactly. Preinstallation is the competition; therefore it must be as easy to install FreeBSD as it is to use a Windows "recovery CD". > Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk to the > Windows fdisk... The Windows one is graphical, and makes it practically impossible to trash Windows itself. Otherwise, we should be talking "Partition Magic"... which comes with the FreeBSD package sold by Walnut Creek these days, BTW. And yet it still runs only under Windows. > And there have been many times when I wished Windows had > a non-graphical login. You mean like holding down the function key during boot, and booting to a command shell? It works fine. > Like those times that Windows won't boot up because the > video isn't configured right, and I can't configure the > video right because I can't boot up Windows... Strawman. Windows will not set new settings unless they are confirmed by the user, and if the user can't read them because they are bad, they can't confirm them without really working at it (since the default is "Cancel". Even if they do manage to confirm a bad video setup (by hitting "Shift-Tab" folowedby "Enter"), they can boot into standard VGS mode once again at the boot prompt by holding down the function key, and selecting that option from the resulting menu. Compare that to XFree86 setup in FreeBSD... what are the "modelines" for _your_ monitor? > The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices is the > control the user has over the system. Much of this control > comes through choice. If you eliminate this choice you > destroy the control, and FreeBSD loses it's attraction. If > KDE is to be the mandatory desktop, then the GNOME user > has to go through the completely pointless process of > uninstalling KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it > around just to take up space. And vice versa. And why > should those wanting a firewall have to endure > KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11? > > It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want X11, and > then if I answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. First of all, it's obvious that you haven't installed any Windows software in a while, if that's your impression of it; Windows applications will generally give you a choice of "Default", "Full", and "Custom". If FreeBSD did the same, you might well get KDE and a graphical login, after selecting "Default". This would not take the control away from you to select "Custom" instead: it would merely make the average user experience better, and make you select one more menu item out of the many dozens you will traverse, out of love of control, or would traverse anyway, without being given that option. > This is how the process currently works. No, it doesn't. X11 is a pain in the keister, and is in there as a "distribution" instead of a "package". To make things even worse, that distribution is _not_ built when you "make release" to build your own CDROM image: it is very, very hard to start with the sources, and end up with exactly what's on a Walnut Creek CDROM release. Since this thread is cross-posted to -advocacy, I hope you won't "gloss over" the points people have made recently about the robusness of the project and the distribution issues that sparked, among other things, this thread. > The original posting on this subject (at least how I > interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default > desktop if no other desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons > and menu items to the desktop packages that point to the > FreeBSD documentation. The first is a decision to be made > by the core team. The second can be done by anyone by > submitting a port. See the "Subject:" line; the original posting was by someone who was giving up on FreeBSD because it was too difficult for a new user to comfortably install, and feel that they were doing the right things and picking the right options. > In fact, now that I think about it, you could call this > port "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific > icons and menu items to any installed desktop that it > detects. I think that the target audience for such a port is _precisely_ the group of people you would see _never_ using it, because they couldn't find the thing, and because FreeBSD's installation system is rather an overwhelming quagmire, for a new user. It would be exactly like throwing a party for all the people you know, and only sending out the invitations in Turkish (or Japanese, if you happen to be in Turkey); no one would be able to show up, even if it was the best party ever. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 1:57:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329A837B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0141.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.141]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29471; Wed, 16 May 2001 04:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B024101.B2E7E6C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:57:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: Terry Lambert , David Johnson , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Young wrote: > > > This is a FreeBSD issue. > > > > If FreeBSD were to go to GGI and KGI (most of the drivers and all > > of the interesting code is under the X license), then video modes > > for all supported cards, and INT 10 BIOS modes up through VESA2 > > would "just work". > > > > You've lost me there ..... WTF are "GGI" & "KGI" ?? "Generic Graphics Interface" and "Kernel Graphics Interface". Video drivers that probe and recognize the hardware. They also have a default VGA, Super-VGA, and VESA driver, in addition to an X server that will run on top of their API. It was discussed at length for 396BSD and later FreeBSD back in 1993, and then implemented by the Linux crowd, but released under the X license to ensure that BSD could adopt it if they wanted. Use "GGI" and "KGI" as search terms in a search engine, and you will find it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 2: 8: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin10.bigpond.com (juicer35.bigpond.com [139.134.6.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A1537B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 02:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.52]) by mailin10.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDF8A300.515; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:13:15 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail5.bigpond.com (Claudes-Eclectic-MailRouter V2.9c 9/11428309); 16 May 2001 19:08:19 Message-ID: <079301c0dde7$b05f18a0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: Cc: "Terry Lambert" , "David Johnson" , "Kris Kennaway" , , References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> <3B024101.B2E7E6C@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:07:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Use "GGI" and "KGI" as search terms in a search engine, > and you will find it. > Yeah I found what looks to be the homepage .... Its not exactly the most descriptive site I've ever seen but I guess they have the common "lack of anyone to do stuff" problem. In a nutshell .... is GGI / KGI intended to replace XFree ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 6: 9:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp3.registeredsite.com (mailtmp3.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9089C37B424 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 06:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail5.registeredsite.com (mail5.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.14]) by mailtmp3.registeredsite.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17669; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:07:34 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail5.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4GD9ZS05235; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:09:35 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AC06B880110; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:09:26 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516083152.01792158@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:40:44 -0400 To: Terry Lambert From: Technical Information Subject: Re: I'm leaving Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <3B024101.B2E7E6C@mindspring.com> References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I thought this sort of technology was already in XFree86. Thought it was how they managed to create one big SVGA driver that works with about 80% of the cards that they support. What impresses me about Red Hat Linux is how good the hardware detection has gotten in general, not just with video. I recently upgraded a motherboard/CPU, video card, and CD-ROM (from SCSI to IDE), while keeping the same hard drive. When I booted Red Hat, it came up and informed me that I had a new video card and CD-ROM and then made the appropriate adjustments to the fstab and XF86Config files. I didn't have to "do" a thing. It just worked. I know that for a more advanced user, graphical installation and administration utilities can often get in the way more than help, especially when they operate in a strictly linear "answer this series of questions in order" fashion. But I'd rather have a graphical utility that allows me to do something in a slightly cumbersome method than have nothing at all, which is usually where I am now on Linux/FreeBSD systems. --Chip Morton At 04:57 AM 5/16/2001, you wrote: >"Generic Graphics Interface" and "Kernel Graphics Interface". > >Video drivers that probe and recognize the hardware. > >They also have a default VGA, Super-VGA, and VESA driver, >in addition to an X server that will run on top of their >API. > >It was discussed at length for 396BSD and later FreeBSD >back in 1993, and then implemented by the Linux crowd, >but released under the X license to ensure that BSD could >adopt it if they wanted. > >Use "GGI" and "KGI" as search terms in a search engine, >and you will find it. > >-- Terry > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 8:39:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E4437B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@daydream.shannon.net) Received: from [209.96.179.165] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 1503OP-000K5T-00; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:39:18 -0400 Received: from daydream (mail@daydream.shannon.net [192.168.1.10]) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f4GFU2q12154; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shannon by daydream with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1503FX-0004KF-00; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:07 -0400 From: Shannon Hendrix To: David Johnson Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010516113005.A16585@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: David Johnson , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 11:33:30AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 11:33:30AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for Windows, because his > computer manufacturer has done it for him already. His idea of _Sometimes_ that is true. But even if he has to install Windows, it does everything for you. Yeah, it does all kinds of things you probably don't want, but that's not the point, and would only be one of many failings of MessOS from Micros~1. > "installation" is handing his credit card over to the cashier. FreeBSD > is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only seems harder > because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new machine. That's a matter of opinion of course. Windows installs on my system are basically: insert CD, wait, reboot and install Gran Prix Legends. Now, getting Windows trimmed of all the useless subprocesses and other crap that slow the machine to a crawl... *THAT* is difficult, no doubt about it. But we're just talking about the install here, not stupidity-removal. > Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk to the Windows > fdisk... The user installing Windows never has to see fdisk at all. Of course, I hate that because I don't like one-huge drive installs. In this area, there is little sense in comparing FreeBSD to Windows. > And there have been many times when I wished Windows had a non-graphical > login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up because the video > isn't configured right, and I can't configure the video right because I > can't boot up Windows... Hold F8 when booting. Then you get either a command line or a safe-mode GUI where you can fix your problem. It's pretty trivial... :) But I know what you mean. Another thing I hate to see in UNIX installation and configuration software is not also providing a command-line alternative. Another problem is that wrapper-type programs are often a license to create incredibly obtuse and syntactially stupid configuration files that are difficult to edit. > The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices is the control the > user has over the system. Much of this control comes through choice. If > you eliminate this choice you destroy the control, and FreeBSD loses > it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory desktop, then the GNOME [snip] I don't think anyone is suggesting a mandatory desktop. You can use KDE or Gnome software to do the install without making it the desktop default. If someone _was_ saying this should be mandatatory, then no, that's not a good idea. Most Linux systems let you pick which desktop you want. It's just a little slicker than FreeBSD, which also does much the same thing. I think just creating some good packages would be the right first step. Wrapping it up in an easier installer will likely require those kinds of packages anyway, so why not do that first? -- "We have nothing to prove" -- Alan Dawkins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 12:16:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE5E37B422; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi.concentric.net [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id PAA01385; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:18 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts002d48.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.108]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id PAA10602; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007001c0de34$02941a20$6cb8adce@mlduke> From: "ML Duke" To: , "David Johnson" Cc: , Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:10:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For those who want a windows(crash) install or a windows(crash) like install -- I'd simply suggest they go use windows. If this thread started because someone "left" FBSD because they didn't like the install, which is what it sounds like, then that person is now where they need to be. What's all the noise about? ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 14: 5: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rgmail.regenstrief.org (rgmail.regenstrief.org [134.68.31.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFE137B422; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org) Received: from aurora.regenstrief.org (rgnout.regenstrief.org [134.68.31.38]) by rgmail.regenstrief.org (8.11.0/8.8.7) with ESMTP id f4GL8SX08163; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:08:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3B02EB74.E0C6FCF4@aurora.regenstrief.org> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:04:52 +0000 From: Gunther Schadow Organization: Regenstrief Institute for Health Care X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Which (online) magazin is good for BSD success stories? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I have a very nice success story to report about how FreeBSD made a crucial difference in a telemedicine/videoconferencing project. I was wondering to which magazine I should submit such article. I don't usually read magazines, so I have no idea which one would be the best platform to promote FreeBSD as a mission critical neworking component. Obviously I want a large audience, and a group of people who don't already strongly believe in this. So, daemon news or even Slashdot! are probably not the right place. Anyone has experience how difficult it is to be accepted in a mainstream magazine, like PC Magazine or the like? thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistent Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 16:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D0E37B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20398; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:55:14 -0700 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdeCR5Ma; Wed May 16 16:55:11 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA27847; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:56:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105162356.QAA27847@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: tech_info@threespace.com (Technical Information) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:56:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), advocacy@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Advocacy) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516083152.01792158@mail.threespace.com> from "Technical Information" at May 16, 2001 08:40:44 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I thought this sort of technology was already in XFree86. Thought it was > how they managed to create one big SVGA driver that works with about 80% of > the cards that they support. No, or XFree86 wouldn't need all the BS modelines and crap, and could be easily configured for high resolution. > What impresses me about Red Hat Linux is how good the hardware detection > has gotten in general, not just with video. I recently upgraded a > motherboard/CPU, video card, and CD-ROM (from SCSI to IDE), while keeping > the same hard drive. When I booted Red Hat, it came up and informed me > that I had a new video card and CD-ROM and then made the appropriate > adjustments to the fstab and XF86Config files. I didn't have to "do" a > thing. It just worked. Yes. This is a good thing. > I know that for a more advanced user, graphical installation and > administration utilities can often get in the way more than help, > especially when they operate in a strictly linear "answer this series of > questions in order" fashion. But I'd rather have a graphical utility that > allows me to do something in a slightly cumbersome method than have nothing > at all, which is usually where I am now on Linux/FreeBSD systems. Yes. Most people fall into the "I don't give a damn how it works, just do what I wanted" camp. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 17:20:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web9505.mail.yahoo.com (web9505.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CDADE37B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wisesage98@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010517002014.2472.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.183.176.197] by web9505.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:20:14 PDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: JTSage Reply-To: wisesage98@yahoo.com Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <200105162356.QAA27847@usr01.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry, freebsd-advocacy : Thanks terry for summing up what the deal is with this thread. It needs to "just work" . If I am new to freebsd, what I need as the end product of an installation is a system that I can begin to start learning, without having to learn how to configure X / KDE / GNOME / etc first. It needs to just work. As an experienced user, I need a quick install that does exactally what I need. I think these two can be blended, and in fact mostly are already. All that really needs to be added is an intuitive, informative configuration script, or GUI, it dosn't matter which, that will set up X with the current hardware configuration. This will give an advanced user a jumpstart, and also an option to skip X installation. And, it will give the newbie a somewhat familair home as they come from the MacOS or Windows worlds into the BSD world. I don't think the issue here is making an install GUI, it is making sysinstall adequetly INSTALL a GUI, instead of simply launching the included xf86config script, which frankly, is not exactally newbie friendly. All the install needs to ever have on the screen is one of these two things : 1. A well formed, somewhat informative question and answer box that clearly tells me what I need to tell sysinstall OR 2. A notice telling me it is doing something, and an approximation of how much time I am going to be waiting. (I.E. "time to pee", "get some coffee", "go eat a pizza and check me in the morning" ) IMHO, a GUI install would be a pretty bad idea, because the possibilty of it not "just work"ing is too great. But an installer that could set up a GUI that would "just work", even with only a 90% success rate, now THAT would be great! ~Jon --- Terry Lambert wrote: > > I thought this sort of technology was already in XFree86. Thought it was > > how they managed to create one big SVGA driver that works with about 80% of > > > the cards that they support. > > No, or XFree86 wouldn't need all the BS modelines and crap, and > could be easily configured for high resolution. > > > > What impresses me about Red Hat Linux is how good the hardware detection > > has gotten in general, not just with video. I recently upgraded a > > motherboard/CPU, video card, and CD-ROM (from SCSI to IDE), while keeping > > the same hard drive. When I booted Red Hat, it came up and informed me > > that I had a new video card and CD-ROM and then made the appropriate > > adjustments to the fstab and XF86Config files. I didn't have to "do" a > > thing. It just worked. > > Yes. This is a good thing. > > > > I know that for a more advanced user, graphical installation and > > administration utilities can often get in the way more than help, > > especially when they operate in a strictly linear "answer this series of > > questions in order" fashion. But I'd rather have a graphical utility that > > allows me to do something in a slightly cumbersome method than have nothing > > > at all, which is usually where I am now on Linux/FreeBSD systems. > > Yes. Most people fall into the "I don't give a damn how it works, > just do what I wanted" camp. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message ===== ----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====---- "Did you ever wonder if the person in the puddle is real, and you're just a reflection of him?" - Calvin (from Calvin & Hobbes) ----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====---- [-WiSE-] wisesage98@yahoo.com www.wisefreebsd.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 16 23:43: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zombie.antar.bryansk.ru (zombie.antar.bryansk.ru [195.239.214.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7742F37B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 23:43:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kappa@antar.bryansk.ru) Received: (from kappa@localhost) by zombie.antar.bryansk.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4H6guY26112 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:42:56 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from kappa@antar.bryansk.ru) X-Authentication-Warning: zombie.antar.bryansk.ru: kappa set sender to kappa@antar.bryansk.ru using -f Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:42:56 +0400 From: Alex Kapranoff To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: OS survey under .RU (Russia) domain Message-ID: <20010517104256.A25739@zombie.antar.bryansk.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This could be interesting to someone here. Netstat.Ru web-site (www.netstat.ru, in Russian) renders statistical data on different OS'es usage on russian Internet hosts (probably web servers only). The diagrams don't require russian language skills. See the figures below: FreeBSD 39.46 % Linux 35.37 % Windows 16.95 % Solaris 3.78 % SCO 2.03 % BSDi 1.08 % AIX 0.43 % Irix 0.38 % OpenBSD 0.30 % OS/2 0.12 % HP-UX 0.04 % -- Alex Kapranoff, +7(0832)791845 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 0:42:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2993037B423 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:42:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id JAA10683; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:42:32 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 150IQV-0002us-00 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:42:27 +0200 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:42:27 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS survey under .RU (Russia) domain Message-ID: <20010517094227.B8747@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20010517104256.A25739@zombie.antar.bryansk.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010517104256.A25739@zombie.antar.bryansk.ru>; from kappa@antar.bryansk.ru on Thu, May 17, 2001 at 10:42:56AM +0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, May 17, 2001 at 10:42:56AM +0400, Alex Kapranoff wrote: > This could be interesting to someone here. > Netstat.Ru web-site (www.netstat.ru, in Russian) renders statistical > data on different OS'es usage on russian Internet hosts (probably web > servers only). The diagrams don't require russian language skills. See > the figures below: <...> Yes, I was aware that BSD use is quite wide-spread in Russia and the NIS. I do not know the reason (Europe seems to be more Linux-centric) but I certainly appreciate it very much! Unfortunately, here at the uni people tend to grasp it quite slowly that there is more to opensource software than Linux, although it is already positive that many have switched away from RH to Debian... but I stop here, this is not a flame list:-) -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 7:16:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from totem.fix.no (totem.fix.no [213.142.66.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5A537B423 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anders@totem.fix.no) Received: by totem.fix.no (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 14FF43CD0; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:16:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:16:36 +0200 From: Anders Nordby To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE X-PGP-Key: http://anders.fix.no/pgp/ X-PGP-Key-FingerPrint: 1E0F C53C D8DF 6A8F EAAD 19C5 D12A BC9F 0083 5956 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he actually ask any BSD persons? Anyway, the URL: http://perens.com/Articles/StandTogether.html Please Cc: me as I don't usually read this list. Cheers, -- Anders. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 7:29:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2240F37B422 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4HEUBx17876; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:30:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B03E05F.9A86C0C4@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:29:51 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anders Nordby Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anders Nordby wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens > doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free > software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack > history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he > actually ask any BSD persons? > He says quite clearly that he is focusing on GPL. That's his right. There's nothing stopping us from doing likewise. He obviously believes the GPL is a "better" license. Perhaps we can ask Chris Coleman to add a page to DaemonNews.org with a simple PHP/MySQL sign-up so that we can _all_ add our signatures and e-mails to such a letter. Come to think of it, this would probably be a great way to tell how many users *BSD actually has... -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 7:42: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56E3B37B422 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:41:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 9517 invoked by uid 1001); 17 May 2001 14:41:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:41:45 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Anders Nordby Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010517164145.B5538@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no>; from anders@fix.no on Thu, May 17, 2001 at 04:16:36PM +0200 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu 2001-05-17 (16:16), Anders Nordby wrote: > I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens > doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free > software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack > history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he > actually ask any BSD persons? > > Anyway, the URL: http://perens.com/Articles/StandTogether.html > > Please Cc: me as I don't usually read this list. He didn't ask. (Check http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-05-15-021-20-OS-CY-MS-0006) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 15:30:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6008737B423 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 150WIB-0000e7-00; Fri, 18 May 2001 00:30:47 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4HLqWF02494 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:52:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:52:31 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9e1h6v$2cb$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anders Nordby wrote: > I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens > doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free > software leaders". And if you actually read the text, you will realize that it is explicitly pro-GPL. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 19: 0:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9578337B61B for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 19:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7E1336ACBE; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:28:34 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:28:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Don Wilde Cc: Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010518112834.I55915@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no> <3B03E05F.9A86C0C4@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B03E05F.9A86C0C4@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Thu, May 17, 2001 at 08:29:51AM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 17 May 2001 at 8:29:51 -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > > Anders Nordby wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens >> doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free >> software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack >> history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he >> actually ask any BSD persons? >> > He says quite clearly that he is focusing on GPL. That's his right. > There's nothing stopping us from doing likewise. He obviously believes > the GPL is a "better" license. Perhaps we can ask Chris Coleman to add a > page to DaemonNews.org with a simple PHP/MySQL sign-up so that we can > _all_ add our signatures and e-mails to such a letter. Come to think of > it, this would probably be a great way to tell how many users *BSD > actually has... *sigh* Bruce seems to be apprehensive about our reaction. In his words, we should "stand together", not set up our own reaction. I've replied to the thread in this vein. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 17 21:57: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6290837B424 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 21:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4I4uVk55672; Thu, 17 May 2001 21:56:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Don Wilde" Cc: "Anders Nordby" , , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:56:29 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c0df56$e6c62260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010518112834.I55915@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey >Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 6:59 PM >To: Don Wilde >Cc: Anders Nordby; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; core@daemonnews.org >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >On Thursday, 17 May 2001 at 8:29:51 -0600, Don Wilde wrote: >> >> >> Anders Nordby wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens >>> doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free >>> software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack >>> history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he >>> actually ask any BSD persons? >>> >> He says quite clearly that he is focusing on GPL. That's his right. >> There's nothing stopping us from doing likewise. He obviously believes >> the GPL is a "better" license. Perhaps we can ask Chris Coleman to add a >> page to DaemonNews.org with a simple PHP/MySQL sign-up so that we can >> _all_ add our signatures and e-mails to such a letter. Come to think of >> it, this would probably be a great way to tell how many users *BSD >> actually has... > >*sigh* Bruce seems to be apprehensive about our reaction. In his >words, we should "stand together", not set up our own reaction. I've >replied to the thread in this vein. > As well he should be. Remember, Bruce is the person who explicitly recommended _against_ developers using the BSD license, when he originally copyrighted the term "Open Source". It wasn't until the Regents of the University of California explictly stated that the UCB copyright didn't need to be displayed that Bruce couldn't find any more excuses to recommend against the BSD license, and changed the recommendations to be more neutral. The real issues go a lot deeper and if you go back several years in history you can see what is going on. Simply put, the so-called "leaders of the GPL" movement are engaged in a war of words and in media manipulation in an attempt to equate "Free Software" and "Open Source" directly with the GPL. They do NOT like the BSD license, and particularly don't like FreeBSD, (both because FreeBSD is the flagship of the BSD license, and because FreeBSD uses the term "Free" in it's name thus causing problems for their little doublespeak game of attempting to equate GPL and Open Source) Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends (the signatories on the list of that article are a who's who of them) have literally made millions of dollars out of in effect convincing a bunch of developers to GPL their code, then those Open Source people have set themselves up in the only point in the GPL code distributon scheme (the nexus points) where it's possible to make a lot of money. VA Linux, Red Hat, and all of those distributors, all of their business models are the same - at one end they suck in GPL code and at the other end spit out finished UNIX-like distributions, and make money doing it. Notice that I said they suck in GPL code - they don't really have interest in pointing their suckers at BSD code. For their business models to continue to work, they must continue to convince an ever-larger number of Open Source developers to write GPL code. In the BSD arena, the money-making is a lot different. The people in BSD making millions are doing it by including BSD code in finished products. In our world, the things that matter are finished products like Whistler Interjet, and the embedded stuff that Wind River is doing, because those projects untimately spew code back into the BSD distribution. In BSD-land, you don't have people making millions of dollars primariarly off of repackaging the BSD distribution. The GPL people see folks like Microsoft rightly as their antithesis - but the fact that Microsoft themselves uses a fair bit of BSD code _themselves_ in their own products isn't lost on the Linux people. Now, the GPL camp sees Apple using BSD code as a base, and they have forseen the future and are scared of what is coming. What _is_ coming is eventually things will reach a head where most of the commercial software developers will realize that to continue to be successful, that they MUST make allowance for Open Source. Either by interfacing with it, or using parts of it, or producing modules that enhance it. Simply put the body of good Open Source is getting so large and representing such a major human knowledge database in software, that if you as a commercial software developer set yourself out to compete directly with Open Source, your competition will be so far ahead that you will never catch up. So, if your a commercial software house in this situation, you end up with a choice: either you can choose to go the GPL route, or you can choose to go the BSD route. If you go the BSD route then your on your own. The great thing about this is that nobody will tell you what to do, so you really do have complete freedom to do what you want. Of course the downside is that the BSD community isn't going to patiently hold your hand while you negotiate the rocks in the stream. If, however, you go the GPL route, then there will be a crew of people, like Bruce, Raymond, and Tim O'Reilly and Linus and all the rest of them that are going to be guiding you down the path that they want you to go, and of course making money off of doing this. The "great" thing about this, I suppose, is that they will always be there to hold you hand while you negotiate the rocks in the stream. Of course the downside is that you really have no control once you start mixing GPL into your stuff, then the GPL community ends up dictating to you what your going to be doing. But, the GPL people all figure that commercial software houses that go the Microsoft route give up the same control and don't seem to have a problem doing it, so why shouldn't they give up the same control to GPL that they are giving up to Microsoft? So, you can see why GPL is very uneasy with BSD. They see the GPL as in direct opposition to commercial software license. They see the BSD license as not being in direct opposition to commercial software, and in fact they see that there is a symbiosis between BSD and commercial software, even between BSD and Microsoft, if you can believe it. Take the Hotmail situation for example - where do you think that Microsoft got all THE IDEAS to stuff into Windows 2K to enable it to REPLACE FreeBSD? Certainly NOT by studying Linux, I can tell you that. Instead, Microsoft spent years studying the BSD way of doing things, looked at the new web technologies like PHP and so on that were coming down the pike, and emulated those in Win2K. So, it's kind of a "friend of my enemy is my enemy" What I see in the future, is I see Microsoft porting MS Office to MacOS X - which is a hell of a lot closer to BSD then it is to Linux. I also see that as Microsoft continues to build the case against GPL and propgandize against it, that they are increasingly going to be holding up BSD as the "right" way to do Open Source. No wonder that the Linux GPL people are drawing the line in the sand now between BSD and GPL. They see the future and they know that ultimately, the GPL is just as "un-free" as a closed source license like Microsoft's. Increasingly, their aims and goals are going to be different than ours. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 2:31:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF4537B42C for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 02:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 08F786ACBC; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:01:15 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:01:14 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010518190114.E7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010518112834.I55915@wantadilla.lemis.com> <002101c0df56$e6c62260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002101c0df56$e6c62260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Thu, May 17, 2001 at 09:56:29PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Your MUA makes its own, incorrect decisions about line breaks. On Thursday, 17 May 2001 at 21:56:29 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > On Thursday, May 17, 2001 6:59 PM, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 17 May 2001 at 8:29:51 -0600, Don Wilde wrote: >>> Anders Nordby wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens >>>> doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free >>>> software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack >>>> history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he >>>> actually ask any BSD persons? >>>> >>> He says quite clearly that he is focusing on GPL. That's his right. >>> There's nothing stopping us from doing likewise. He obviously believes >>> the GPL is a "better" license. Perhaps we can ask Chris Coleman to add a >>> page to DaemonNews.org with a simple PHP/MySQL sign-up so that we can >>> _all_ add our signatures and e-mails to such a letter. Come to think of >>> it, this would probably be a great way to tell how many users *BSD >>> actually has... >> >> *sigh* Bruce seems to be apprehensive about our reaction. In his >> words, we should "stand together", not set up our own reaction. I've >> replied to the thread in this vein. > > As well he should be. Remember, Bruce is the person who explicitly > recommended _against_ developers using the BSD license, when he > originally copyrighted the term "Open Source". It wasn't until the > Regents of the University of California explictly stated that the > UCB copyright didn't need to be displayed that Bruce couldn't find > any more excuses to recommend against the BSD license, and changed > the recommendations to be more neutral. What's wrong in that? I'm a little surprised how much the advertising clause worried the GPL faction, but then I'm very surprised how much the GPL worries the BSD faction. > The real issues go a lot deeper and if you go back several years in > history you can see what is going on. Simply put, the so-called > "leaders of the GPL" movement are engaged in a war of words and in > media manipulation in an attempt to equate "Free Software" and "Open > Source" directly with the GPL. 2 years ago esr showed me the draft of a book he was writing. It doesn't seem to have come out, or at least I haven't seen it. He compared free software licenses, and explicitly stated that the BSD license was the freest of all. > They do NOT like the BSD license, and particularly don't like > FreeBSD, (both because FreeBSD is the flagship of the BSD license, Saying things like that will alienate not only the GPL people, but also the other BSDs. > and because FreeBSD uses the term "Free" in it's name thus causing > problems for their little doublespeak game of attempting to equate > GPL and Open Source) I don't think they're that naive. > Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends (the > signatories on the list of that article are a who's who of them) > have literally made millions of dollars out of in effect convincing > a bunch of developers to GPL their code, then those Open Source > people have set themselves up in the only point in the GPL code > distributon scheme (the nexus points) where it's possible to make a > lot of money. You're putting it as if they were a united front. They are not. The three I know (rms, esr and Tim O'Reilly) all have very different viewpoints on the issue. rms and esr have both repeatedly stated: a: The BSD license is good ("but the GPL is better"). b: (esr): "Free Software" is a term which just doesn't fly. (rms): "Open Source" is a betrayal of everything free software stands for. > VA Linux, Red Hat, and all of those distributors, all of their > business models are the same - at one end they suck in GPL code and > at the other end spit out finished UNIX-like distributions, and make > money doing it. They're not making money doing it. They're *trying* to make money doing it. > Notice that I said they suck in GPL code - they don't really have > interest in pointing their suckers at BSD code. Yes they do. At least Red Hat does. But they have enough problems now without getting involved with another set. > For their business models to continue to work, they must continue to > convince an ever-larger number of Open Source developers to write > GPL code. Why? > In the BSD arena, the money-making is a lot different. The people > in BSD making millions are doing it by including BSD code in > finished products. In our world, the things that matter are > finished products like Whistler Whistle. > Interjet, and the embedded stuff that Wind River is doing, because > those projects untimately spew code back into the BSD distribution. My understanding from Wind River is that their interest in FreeBSD is of a different nature. I'm not at liberty to say how, but this statement doesn't match. > In BSD-land, you don't have people making millions of dollars > primariarly off of repackaging the BSD distribution. You don't in Linux-land either. That's why the Linux companies are going broke. > The GPL people see folks like Microsoft rightly as their antithesis > - but the fact that Microsoft themselves uses a fair bit of BSD code > _themselves_ in their own products isn't lost on the Linux people. It is on most of them. And I think it's pretty irrelevant myself. > So, you can see why GPL is very uneasy with BSD. They see the GPL > as in direct opposition to commercial software license. They see > the BSD license as not being in direct opposition to commercial > software, and in fact they see that there is a symbiosis between BSD > and commercial software, even between BSD and Microsoft, if you can > believe it. Take the Hotmail situation for example - where do you > think that Microsoft got all THE IDEAS to stuff into Windows 2K to > enable it to REPLACE FreeBSD? Certainly NOT by studying Linux, I > can tell you that. You just need to look at the way they did it to know they also didn't get the ideas from BSD UNIX. > Instead, Microsoft spent years studying the BSD way of doing things, > looked at the new web technologies like PHP and so on that were > coming down the pike, and emulated those in Win2K. I can't see any evidence of this. > So, it's kind of a "friend of my enemy is my enemy" What I see in > the future, is I see Microsoft porting MS Office to MacOS X - which > is a hell of a lot closer to BSD then it is to Linux. I also see > that as Microsoft continues to build the case against GPL and > propgandize against it, that they are increasingly going to be > holding up BSD as the "right" way to do Open Source. No wonder that > the Linux GPL people are drawing the line in the sand now between > BSD and GPL. They see the future and they know that ultimately, the > GPL is just as "un-free" as a closed source license like > Microsoft's. Increasingly, their aims and goals are going to be > different than ours. Certainly if we take your viewpoint. You've made a lot of claims there, but I don't see much substantiation, and the viewpoints are very different from what I've experienced first-hand. I work with some leading Linux people, and while there are many things I don't like about Linux, I can't see anything like what you're claiming here. In addition, I don't see any suggestions from you about what to do about the situation. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 3: 1:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5590537B423 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 03:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4IA18R15978 ; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:01:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA53497 ; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:01:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:01:33 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Lehey Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010518120133.G48909@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Lehey , Ted Mittelstaedt , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org References: <20010518112834.I55915@wantadilla.lemis.com> <002101c0df56$e6c62260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010518190114.E7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010518190114.E7708@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 07:01:14PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey said on May 18, 2001 at 19:01:14: > > On Thursday, 17 May 2001 at 21:56:29 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > In BSD-land, you don't have people making millions of dollars > > primariarly off of repackaging the BSD distribution. > > You don't in Linux-land either. That's why the Linux companies are > going broke. As for BSD-land: how about Apple? (They haven't made millions yet but they're certainly hoping to.) True, they didn't just repackage, but added a lot to BSD; but Red Hat added a lot to Linux, too. Red Hat made a point of releasing everything they did under a free license, but they didn't have to (and others like SuSE/Caldera don't. And Red Hat doesn't seem to be going broke, either.) I think there's only one reason why companies don't "suck in" (as Ted put it) and repackage the BSD systems, and that is that the BSD systems didn't get the same mindshare as linux did. It is also true that unlike linux, the BSD systems are complete systems by themselves, without the same need of repackaging; but they could still benefit from some of the end-user polish which linux has been getting, like the install process, autodetection of hardware, and so on. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 6:56:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929D337B43C for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 6649E55407; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56BB351610; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg Lehey , Ted Mittelstaedt , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , , Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" In-Reply-To: <20010518120133.G48909@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2001-05-18, Rahul Siddharthan scribbled: # Greg Lehey said on May 18, 2001 at 19:01:14: # > # > On Thursday, 17 May 2001 at 21:56:29 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: # > # > > In BSD-land, you don't have people making millions of dollars # > > primariarly off of repackaging the BSD distribution. # > # > You don't in Linux-land either. That's why the Linux companies are # > going broke. # # As for BSD-land: how about Apple? (They haven't made millions yet but # they're certainly hoping to.) Apple will make some money off of Mac OS X, but the main source of their money is from the hardware (look at the prices of some of the add-ons and upgrades found on their online store... heck... look at the price of the G4 Cube when it first came out). The other product Apple will make money on is the Mach/BSD/Aqua/Carbon/etc-ized Mac OS X Server which will be coming out later this year. Critics have stated that people might still stick with Linux, xBSD, etc rather than going with the next version of Mac OS X server... dunno... guess it's a little too early to tell there. # True, they didn't just repackage, but added a lot to BSD; but Red Hat # added a lot to Linux, too. Red Hat made a point of releasing # everything they did under a free license, but they didn't have to (and # others like SuSE/Caldera don't. And Red Hat doesn't seem to be going # broke, either.) Red Hat makes quite a bit of money off of their additional services and bundling ties with their high-end Linux server packages. They are still bleeding, but not nearly as bad as they were initially. # I think there's only one reason why companies don't "suck in" (as Ted # put it) and repackage the BSD systems, and that is that the BSD # systems didn't get the same mindshare as linux did. It is also # true that unlike linux, the BSD systems are complete systems by # themselves, without the same need of repackaging; but they could still # benefit from some of the end-user polish which linux has been getting, # like the install process, autodetection of hardware, and so on. Although xBSD never took off in the sense if multiple distributions or the media hype generated by free software, open source, the Microsoft destroyer... remember, much of the hype was done during the most heated points in the Microsoft anti-trust case. I think where BSD has it's mindshare is in companies like F5 and Intel (both use a BSD kernel and BSD-like userland in their middle to high-level load balancing units) or with the network appliance market (although Linux has it's stake there too). -- Linh Pham [lplist@closedsrc.org] // 404b - Brain not found To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 6:57:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (ns1.via-net-works.net.ar [200.10.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B70737B422; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar) Received: (from fpscha@localhost) by ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA99467; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:01:25 -0300 (ART) X-Authentication-Warning: ns1.via-net-works.net.ar: fpscha set sender to fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar using -f Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:01:25 -0300 From: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. Any ideas? TIA! Fernando P. Schapachnik Planificación de red y tecnología VIA NET.WORKS ARGENTINA S.A. fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar Tel.: (54-11) 4323-3381 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 8:35:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD85437B422; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4IFZ7O22038; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:35:07 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> References: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:34:51 +0200 To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:01 AM -0300 5/18/01, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. There are bits and pieces for some of these things that are available, but to the best of my knowledge there are still some key pieces missing, on top of the fact that no one has taken the time to put all the pieces together that are currently available. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 8:44:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA41F37B446; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:44:44 -0400 Message-ID: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A66832F@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Brad Knowles' , "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Exchange substitute Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:45:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DFB1.9920E850" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DFB1.9920E850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I believe that evolution is attempting to do all this i tried it a few months ago. It's gnome app so you at least need the gnome base and libs installed, this is if my memory is still good. Roderick P. Person Programmer II personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com "It's like trying to get a monkey to do something a monkey can't do." -self > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] > Sent: May 18, 2001 11:35 AM > To: Fernando P . Schapachnik; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; > advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Exchange substitute > > > At 11:01 AM -0300 5/18/01, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > > > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > There are bits and pieces for some of these things that are > available, but to the best of my knowledge there are still some key > pieces missing, on top of the fact that no one has taken the time to > put all the pieces together that are currently available. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum > */ > /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil > Carmody */ > /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter > Belgers */ > /* > */ > /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt > >clear.vob */ > /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar > 5-byte key */ > > dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DFB1.9920E850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Exchange substitute

I believe that evolution is attempting to do all this = i tried it a few months ago. It's gnome app so you at least need the = gnome base and libs installed, this is if my memory is still = good.

Roderick P. Person
Programmer II
personrp@ccbh.com
http://www.ccbh.com

"It's like trying to get a monkey to do = something a monkey can't do."
        -self




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be= ]
> Sent: May 18, 2001 11:35 AM
> To: Fernando P . Schapachnik; = freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG;
> advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: Exchange substitute
>
>
> At 11:01 AM -0300 5/18/01, Fernando P . = Schapachnik wrote:
>
> >     Sorry if these are not = the appropiate fora.
> >
> >     I need to find a = reliable, unix-based MS Exchange
> >  substitute. I mean, not only = POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but
> >  embeded calendar, agenda, shared = address book, etc.
>
>       There are bits = and pieces for some of these things that are
> available, but to the best of my knowledge = there are still some key
> pieces missing, on top of the fact that no one = has taken the time to
> put all the pieces together that are currently = available.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, = <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
>
> /*        = efdtt.c  Author:  Charles M. Hannum
> = <root@ihack.net>        &n= bsp; */
> /*       = Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil
> = Carmody         */
> /*     Prime as DNS cname = chain by Roy Arends and Walter
> = Belgers        */
> = /*           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;            =
>          = ; */
> /*     Usage is:  cat = title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt
> >clear.vob      = ;  */
> /*   where title-key =3D "153 2 = 8 105 225" or other similar
> 5-byte key    */
>
> dig decss.friet.org|perl = -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}'
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to = majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" = in the body of the message
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DFB1.9920E850-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 9:28:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4485A37B424 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4IGSZk57551; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Don Wilde" , "Anders Nordby" , , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:28:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010518190114.E7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@lemis.com] >Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 2:31 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Don Wilde; Anders Nordby; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; >core@daemonnews.org >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > >> >> As well he should be. Remember, Bruce is the person who explicitly >> recommended _against_ developers using the BSD license, when he >> originally copyrighted the term "Open Source". It wasn't until the >> Regents of the University of California explictly stated that the >> UCB copyright didn't need to be displayed that Bruce couldn't find >> any more excuses to recommend against the BSD license, and changed >> the recommendations to be more neutral. > >What's wrong in that? I'm a little surprised how much the advertising >clause worried the GPL faction, but then I'm very surprised how much >the GPL worries the BSD faction. > I frankly see little evidence that the GPL worries the BSD faction. Could you substantiate that statement? > >> and because FreeBSD uses the term "Free" in it's name thus causing >> problems for their little doublespeak game of attempting to equate >> GPL and Open Source) > >I don't think they're that naive. > They aren't - but the people they are trying to sway (end users, media, and a lot of developers) are. >> Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends (the >> signatories on the list of that article are a who's who of them) >> have literally made millions of dollars out of in effect convincing >> a bunch of developers to GPL their code, then those Open Source >> people have set themselves up in the only point in the GPL code >> distributon scheme (the nexus points) where it's possible to make a >> lot of money. > >You're putting it as if they were a united front. They are not. The >three I know (rms, esr and Tim O'Reilly) all have very different >viewpoints on the issue. rms and esr have both repeatedly stated: > >a: The BSD license is good ("but the GPL is better"). >b: (esr): "Free Software" is a term which just doesn't fly. > (rms): "Open Source" is a betrayal of everything free software > stands for. > They are rapidly becoming more and more united as a) Microsoft becomes more active against the GPL specifically, rather than Open Source Software in general, and b) as the Linux distributors buy each other out. >> VA Linux, Red Hat, and all of those distributors, all of their >> business models are the same - at one end they suck in GPL code and >> at the other end spit out finished UNIX-like distributions, and make >> money doing it. > >They're not making money doing it. They're *trying* to make money >doing it. > All of High Tech got caught in the US stock market crash that was IMHO triggered by the excesses of the dot-com's, and the dumb-assed investors that fed them. Yes, it's true a lot of them aren't making money now - but that was expected when they went IPO - why do you think that a company goes IPO anyway, they do it to get investment money because they aren't making a profit at the current time, and because their business plan dictates that they will eventually make money. Besides that, all of those people _personally_ made a lot of money by selling stock right after IPO. How do you think that Eric Raymond survives anyway when he has no job (other than being GPL playboy at various GPL conferences and such) If the stock market hadn't crashed then nobody would care that those companies aren't currently making money, because everyone would still understand that they are young firms that are building up market, and that Linux must reach critical mass before they can start making money. Since the stock market did crash, all of the High-Tech companies that had this business model (Amazon.com for example) are being held to the standard of they must be profitable, way before they were originally expected to be by their founders. > >> For their business models to continue to work, they must continue to >> convince an ever-larger number of Open Source developers to write >> GPL code. > >Why? > Because of several reasons, first as you know there's a shortage of software developers and as a result software companies really listen closely to what their developers are telling them, and if the developers are into OSS then the companies may get into it as well. Secondly, it puts more and more code projects into OSS and then there's more chance that an existing OSS project will match what a commercial software firm wants to do, thus they may be more induced to use it. FInally, it helps create more interest in Linux among end users, thus they demand support for it, putting even more pressure on commercial software companies to use it. > >> Interjet, and the embedded stuff that Wind River is doing, because >> those projects untimately spew code back into the BSD distribution. > >My understanding from Wind River is that their interest in FreeBSD is >of a different nature. I'm not at liberty to say how, but this >statement doesn't match. > Well, then it will have to stand until Wind River decides to inform the public as to what their intentions towards BSD are. >> So, it's kind of a "friend of my enemy is my enemy" What I see in >> the future, is I see Microsoft porting MS Office to MacOS X - which >> is a hell of a lot closer to BSD then it is to Linux. I also see >> that as Microsoft continues to build the case against GPL and >> propgandize against it, that they are increasingly going to be >> holding up BSD as the "right" way to do Open Source. No wonder that >> the Linux GPL people are drawing the line in the sand now between >> BSD and GPL. They see the future and they know that ultimately, the >> GPL is just as "un-free" as a closed source license like >> Microsoft's. Increasingly, their aims and goals are going to be >> different than ours. > >Certainly if we take your viewpoint. You've made a lot of claims >there, but I don't see much substantiation, and the viewpoints are >very different from what I've experienced first-hand. I work with >some leading Linux people, and while there are many things I don't >like about Linux, I can't see anything like what you're claiming here. > I judge the Linux crowd by the public statements they make and the public things that they do. There's a history of GPL people publically putting down the BSD license, and then something like this "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" comes along and they make no effort to publically reach out to the BSD people. Greg, I don't doubt that you are privately getting a lot of positive strokes from various GPL people. But, it doesen't make a damn bit of difference if they aren't translating this into actions in the marketing arena. What I see publically is a lot of posturing from GPL that puts GPL above everything else. I don't see the same posturing from BSD. The evidence is that GPL people fear the idea of BSD, but there's no evidence that the BSD people fear the idea of GPL. Ultimately, all GPL and BSD are is written English words that express an idea. They _aren't_ code. What matters is how people that deal with those ideas react. And, so far I've seen a lot more times that the BSD people take the moral high road when it comes to differing with GPL and the road that GPL takes. Incidents like Bruce ignoring BSD in his response are just more and more nails in the coffin of GPL<->BSD friendship. And, it's not the BSD people that are doing the nailing. While I can deal with the GPL as an ideal in and of itself, I think the BSD folks are getting irritated with the actions of the folks around it. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 11:43:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (ns1.via-net-works.net.ar [200.10.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321C037B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar) Received: (from fpscha@localhost) by ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA11702; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:47:26 -0300 (ART) X-Authentication-Warning: ns1.via-net-works.net.ar: fpscha set sender to fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar using -f Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:47:26 -0300 From: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518154726.A7668@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> References: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 05:34:51PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, thanks everybody for the pointers... It seems that there is not still such a tool. Regards! En un mensaje anterior, Brad Knowles escribió: > At 11:01 AM -0300 5/18/01, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > > > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > There are bits and pieces for some of these things that are > available, but to the best of my knowledge there are still some key > pieces missing, on top of the fact that no one has taken the time to > put all the pieces together that are currently available. Fernando P. Schapachnik Planificación de red y tecnología VIA NET.WORKS ARGENTINA S.A. fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar Tel.: (54-11) 4323-3381 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 11:51:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3707637B43F; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19118; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:51:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010518124224.047c7970@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:44:07 -0600 To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Exchange substitute In-Reply-To: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Qualcomm used to sell (and probably still sells) add-ons for Eudora that provide functions such as shared calendars and address book. You may want to look on their site to see if these add-ons still exist. Alas, Microsoft has gutted the PIM market via dumping and bundling. --Brett At 08:01 AM 5/18/2001, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: >Hi! > > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange >substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but >embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > Any ideas? TIA! > > >Fernando P. Schapachnik >Planificación de red y tecnología >VIA NET.WORKS ARGENTINA S.A. >fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar >Tel.: (54-11) 4323-3381 > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:17:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DDB37B43C; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07764; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:15:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJkaG3o; Fri May 18 12:15:29 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01383; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:24:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105181924.MAA01383@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Exchange substitute To: fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar (Fernando P . Schapachnik) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:24:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> from "Fernando P . Schapachnik" at May 18, 2001 11:01:25 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > Any ideas? TIA! Sendmail + Cyrus IMAP from ports will do the job. Are you using any esorteric features of Excahnge that we should know about? You may also need to add OpenLDAP 2.0 or other software, if you are. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:26:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (ns1.via-net-works.net.ar [200.10.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A99737B42C; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar) Received: (from fpscha@localhost) by ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA40810; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:30:13 -0300 (ART) X-Authentication-Warning: ns1.via-net-works.net.ar: fpscha set sender to fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar using -f Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:30:13 -0300 From: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518163013.D98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> References: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> <200105181924.MAA01383@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105181924.MAA01383@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 07:24:14PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG En un mensaje anterior, Terry Lambert escribió: > > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > > > Any ideas? TIA! > > Sendmail + Cyrus IMAP from ports will do the job. > > Are you using any esorteric features of Excahnge that we > should know about? You may also need to add OpenLDAP 2.0 > or other software, if you are. Calendar which is the only feature that doesn't seem to be easy to find on Open Source environments. Thanks and regards. Fernando P. Schapachnik Planificación de red y tecnología VIA NET.WORKS ARGENTINA S.A. fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar Tel.: (54-11) 4323-3381 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:33:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0988B37B443; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 166E455407; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0667651610; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" Cc: Terry Lambert , , Subject: Re: Exchange substitute In-Reply-To: <20010518163013.D98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2001-05-18, Fernando P . Schapachnik scribbled: # Calendar which is the only feature that doesn't seem to be easy to # find on Open Source environments. There are web-based calendar tools available... if not in Ports or FreshPorts [http://www.freshports.org], then check out FreshMeat at http://freshmeat.net -- Linh Pham [lplist@closedsrc.org] // 404b - Brain not found To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:33:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F2F37B43E; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 150pzf-00071C-00; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:32:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , please don't continue on Subject: Re: Exchange substitute In-Reply-To: <200105181924.MAA01383@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 18 May 2001, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. advocacy is probably not appropriate; please consider continuing this discussion just on chat. > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. On Fri, 18 May 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Sendmail + Cyrus IMAP from ports will do the job. This will do the shared/group calendaring? > Are you using any esorteric features of Excahnge that we > should know about? You may also need to add OpenLDAP 2.0 > or other software, if you are. I also am curious about this. On Tuesday, I gave a presentation about BSD, open source, and Linux; and some of the audience asked me about alternatives for MS Exchange/Outlook -- in particular they were interested in providing shared calendars. (I guess this is called "groupware".) I have only heard about evolution, so it was my only answer. But then later, I remembered reading about HP's OpenMail. It is available for Linux -- maybe it runs under FreeBSD. My Agilent-working father believes that OpenMail is mostly compatible with MS Exchange's features (and since he is a former-HP employee, he believes it is a lot better). But, I believe that OpenMail isn't being supported anymore, and in the next few years it will be phased out. As for evolution, I don't know much about it. I hear that it uses some iCalendar protocol and will work with other calendaring systems. Fernando, the "unix-based MS Exchange substitute" may really involve two parts: the server and the clients that work with it. You may want to see if the clients you are using support iCalendar or Open Mail. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:33:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from casimir.physics.purdue.edu (casimir.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1376937B43F; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@physics.purdue.edu) Received: by casimir.physics.purdue.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2D84F18A47; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:33:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:33:04 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518143303.A26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Reply-To: Will Andrews Mail-Followup-To: Will Andrews , "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> <200105181924.MAA01383@usr05.primenet.com> <20010518163013.D98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <20010518163013.D98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar>; from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:30:13PM -0300 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.18 sparc64 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:30:13PM -0300, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > Calendar which is the only feature that doesn't seem to be easy to > find on Open Source environments. Erm, nobody here's ever heard of phpGroupWare? http://www.phpgroupware.org/apps/ ..specifically mentions calendar tools among others. It looks useful, but I've never used it. So YMMV. -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:34: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975CE37B422; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20197; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:34:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma020164; Fri, 18 May 01 15:33:51 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:33:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" Cc: , Subject: Re: Exchange substitute In-Reply-To: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At one point, I was evaluating HP Openmail for our company. You can most likely get the Linux version to run under emulation. You may wish to check with HP (or local reseller) to see the current status of Openmail. I'm not sure if there is any more development on it beyond bug fixes. Cheers! On Fri, 18 May 2001, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > Hi! > > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > Any ideas? TIA! - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE7BXkhtZTBgtmnGNERAplWAJ9PuDx5RWoQckPT1/GwZZusi0OgzgCdHqWz gOv0Mv91rvtwJed8xiXq98k= =xETZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:44:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757C437B42C; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA88233; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:43:21 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Will Andrews Cc: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute In-Reply-To: <20010518143303.A26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 18 May 2001, Will Andrews wrote: > Erm, nobody here's ever heard of phpGroupWare? > > http://www.phpgroupware.org/apps/ > > ..specifically mentions calendar tools among others. It looks useful, > but I've never used it. So YMMV. It will GREATLY vary. You cant even really compare outlook and phpgroupware. There not even close. ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:47:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from casimir.physics.purdue.edu (casimir.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3347B37B422; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@physics.purdue.edu) Received: by casimir.physics.purdue.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2B03518A47; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:46:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:46:49 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: Will Andrews , "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518144648.C26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Reply-To: Will Andrews Mail-Followup-To: Will Andrews , scanner@jurai.net, "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010518143303.A26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: ; from scanner@jurai.net on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:43:21PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.18 sparc64 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:43:21PM -0400, scanner@jurai.net wrote: > It will GREATLY vary. You cant even really compare outlook and > phpgroupware. There not even close. It looks like they've got a very modular API though, and if the webpage's any indication, it's a pretty slick interface. But according to the "progress" page, there's still a lot to be done, as you say. I ought to try it out anyway. It would probably help me, considering how disorganized I currently am (*looks at the 750 or so files/directories in $HOME*). :-) -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:53:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (ns1.via-net-works.net.ar [200.10.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACE237B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar) Received: (from fpscha@localhost) by ns1.via-net-works.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA57853; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:55:47 -0300 (ART) X-Authentication-Warning: ns1.via-net-works.net.ar: fpscha set sender to fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar using -f Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:55:47 -0300 From: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: Will Andrews , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518165547.E98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> References: <20010518143303.A26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from scanner@jurai.net on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:43:21PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG En un mensaje anterior, scanner@jurai.net escribió: > On Fri, 18 May 2001, Will Andrews wrote: > > > Erm, nobody here's ever heard of phpGroupWare? > > > > http://www.phpgroupware.org/apps/ > > > > ..specifically mentions calendar tools among others. It looks useful, > > but I've never used it. So YMMV. > > It will GREATLY vary. You cant even really compare outlook and > phpgroupware. There not even close. I agree. Web based solutions are out of the question, as they don't seem to be a very good replacement for a "real" application like Outlook. To summarize some of the previous proposals: -Citadel seems to be a BBS soft. -OpenMail doesn't seem to be supported any more. -Evolution is a client. They say they might made a server sometime, maybe. -The Qualcomm solution is not Unix based and is email only. -Sendmail.com is only email. So we are still on the hunt... Fernando P. Schapachnik Planificación de red y tecnología VIA NET.WORKS ARGENTINA S.A. fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar Tel.: (54-11) 4323-3381 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 12:57:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from casimir.physics.purdue.edu (casimir.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C678D37B42C; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@physics.purdue.edu) Received: by casimir.physics.purdue.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A337E18A47; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:56:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:56:50 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" Cc: scanner@jurai.net, Will Andrews , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518145650.E26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Reply-To: Will Andrews Mail-Followup-To: Will Andrews , "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , scanner@jurai.net, Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010518143303.A26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> <20010518165547.E98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <20010518165547.E98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar>; from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:55:47PM -0300 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.18 sparc64 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:55:47PM -0300, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > I agree. Web based solutions are out of the question, as they don't > seem to be a very good replacement for a "real" application like > Outlook. Erm, perhaps it's not immediately obvious to me, but... why? -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 13: 2:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FE737B42C; Fri, 18 May 2001 13:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E96661C; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:02:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:02:16 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Will Andrews Cc: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" , , Terry Lambert , , Subject: Re: Exchange substitute In-Reply-To: <20010518145650.E26877@casimir.physics.purdue.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 18 May 2001, Will Andrews wrote: :On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:55:47PM -0300, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: :> I agree. Web based solutions are out of the question, as they don't :> seem to be a very good replacement for a "real" application like :> Outlook. : :Erm, perhaps it's not immediately obvious to me, but... why? : The calandering stuff in Outlook is actually pretty nice. It's a shame there aren't better choices, though. Outlook is horrible MUA, and Excahnge servers are resource pigs. And of course, it's all windows only. : -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 13:21:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DEC537B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 13:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b069.otenet.gr [195.167.121.197]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4IKKxO28198; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:20:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IKEho06525; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:14:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:14:43 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010518231443.A6470@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> <200105181924.MAA01383@usr05.primenet.com> <20010518163013.D98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010518163013.D98779@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar>; from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:30:13PM -0300 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:30:13PM -0300, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > En un mensaje anterior, Terry Lambert escribio: > > > Sorry if these are not the appropiate fora. > > > > > > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > > > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > > > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. > > > > > > Any ideas? TIA! > > > > Sendmail + Cyrus IMAP from ports will do the job. > > > > Are you using any esorteric features of Excahnge that we > > should know about? You may also need to add OpenLDAP 2.0 > > or other software, if you are. > > Calendar which is the only feature that doesn't seem to be easy to > find on Open Source environments. Which uses standard MIME attachments to transfer calendar related information between your Outlook clients. Shared folders, shared calendars, shared contact lists, etc., are implemented in Outlook and not in Exchange. Using one qmail and one sendmail server, I tested 'sharing' a calendar from an Outlook client, and looked at the resulting mail messages with Mutt. The Outlook clients will send calendar information to each other using messages that contain a single MIME attachment of MIME-type application/ms-tnef. As long as your SMTP Server does not mess with the message in any way, the sharing works like a charm. Of course, working with binary-only attachments like those having a MIME-type of application/ms-tnef, can be a real pain when you prefer reading your email with Mutt. But this is another story... --giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 16:13: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB82D37B43C; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IN9FJ15524; Sat, 19 May 2001 00:09:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:09:15 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Fernando P . Schapachnik" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Message-ID: <20010519000915.A15497@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T4sUOijqQbZv57TR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010518110125.A91043@ns1.via-net-works.net.ar>; from fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:01:25AM -0300 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:01:25AM -0300, Fernando P . Schapachnik wrote: > I need to find a reliable, unix-based MS Exchange > substitute. I mean, not only POP/SMTP/IMAP which are easy, but > embeded calendar, agenda, shared address book, etc. Go to www.steltor.com, and look at their products, which run on Unix (inc. Linux, but not BSD) and claim to provide the necessary functionality. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsFq5oACgkQk6gHZCw343WbdwCgjZohEFkl6j+cp9wTR+zzdTsR TDkAoJKYj8yYj++aFLqA34CbTeLzN9wT =Qxou -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 17: 2:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDF037B43C for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:01:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0B2E46ACBE; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:28:59 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:28:59 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010518190114.E7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 09:28:33AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] I wish you'd fix your MUA. On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 9:28:33 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > On Friday, May 18, 2001 2:31 AM, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> As well he should be. Remember, Bruce is the person who explicitly >>> recommended _against_ developers using the BSD license, when he >>> originally copyrighted the term "Open Source". It wasn't until the >>> Regents of the University of California explictly stated that the >>> UCB copyright didn't need to be displayed that Bruce couldn't find >>> any more excuses to recommend against the BSD license, and changed >>> the recommendations to be more neutral. >> >> What's wrong in that? I'm a little surprised how much the advertising >> clause worried the GPL faction, but then I'm very surprised how much >> the GPL worries the BSD faction. > > I frankly see little evidence that the GPL worries the BSD faction. Then you're closing your eyes. We're continually seeing threads bashing the GPL. Look at the thread "Stallman stalls again", in which you participated. This thread also appears to be FUD against the GPL. > Could you substantiate that statement? I have nearly 350 saved mail messages on the subject. I don't want to spam the list with them, especially as I suspect that others won't need proof, but if you want, I'll bounce them to you. >>> and because FreeBSD uses the term "Free" in it's name thus causing >>> problems for their little doublespeak game of attempting to equate >>> GPL and Open Source) >> >> I don't think they're that naive. > > They aren't - but the people they are trying to sway (end users, > media, and a lot of developers) are. In the (truncated) quotation above you were referring to the signatories of the declaration. What did you mean, then? >>> Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends (the >>> signatories on the list of that article are a who's who of them) >>> have literally made millions of dollars out of in effect convincing >>> a bunch of developers to GPL their code, then those Open Source >>> people have set themselves up in the only point in the GPL code >>> distributon scheme (the nexus points) where it's possible to make a >>> lot of money. >> >> You're putting it as if they were a united front. They are not. The >> three I know (rms, esr and Tim O'Reilly) all have very different >> viewpoints on the issue. rms and esr have both repeatedly stated: >> >> a: The BSD license is good ("but the GPL is better"). >> b: (esr): "Free Software" is a term which just doesn't fly. >> (rms): "Open Source" is a betrayal of everything free software >> stands for. > > They are rapidly becoming more and more united as a) Microsoft > becomes more active against the GPL specifically, rather than Open > Source Software in general, and b) as the Linux distributors buy > each other out. This doesn't interest esr or rms. And having been involved in a near-buyout myself recently, I see no evidence of any unity. >>> VA Linux, Red Hat, and all of those distributors, all of their >>> business models are the same - at one end they suck in GPL code and >>> at the other end spit out finished UNIX-like distributions, and make >>> money doing it. >> >> They're not making money doing it. They're *trying* to make money >> doing it. > > All of High Tech got caught in the US stock market crash that was > IMHO triggered by the excesses of the dot-com's, and the dumb-assed > investors that fed them. > > Yes, it's true a lot of them aren't making money now - but that was > expected when they went IPO - why do you think that a company goes > IPO anyway, they do it to get investment money because they aren't > making a profit at the current time, and because their business plan > dictates that they will eventually make money. > > Besides that, all of those people _personally_ made a lot of money > by selling stock right after IPO. How do you think that Eric > Raymond survives anyway when he has no job (other than being GPL > playboy at various GPL conferences and such) I haven't investigated. But he must get a lot of book royalties. > If the stock market hadn't crashed then nobody would care that those > companies aren't currently making money, because everyone would > still understand that they are young firms that are building up > market, and that Linux must reach critical mass before they can > start making money. Since the stock market did crash, all of the > High-Tech companies that had this business model (Amazon.com for > example) are being held to the standard of they must be profitable, > way before they were originally expected to be by their founders. What does all this have to do with your original statement: >>> at one end they suck in GPL code and at the other end spit out >>> finished UNIX-like distributions, and make money doing it. >>> For their business models to continue to work, they must continue to >>> convince an ever-larger number of Open Source developers to write >>> GPL code. >> >> Why? > > Because of several reasons, first as you know there's a shortage of software > developers and as a result software companies really listen closely to what > their developers are telling them, and if the developers are into OSS then > the companies may get into it as well. Secondly, it puts more and more code > projects into OSS and then there's more chance that an existing OSS project > will match what a commercial software firm wants to do, thus they may be > more induced to use it. FInally, it helps create more interest in Linux > among end users, thus they demand support for it, putting even more > pressure on commercial software companies to use it. Simplifying somewhat, "there's a shortage of developers, and open source is the flavour of the day". There's nothing in the paragraph above which means it has to be GPL. In fact, it doesn't mention GPL. >>> So, it's kind of a "friend of my enemy is my enemy" What I see in >>> the future, is I see Microsoft porting MS Office to MacOS X - which >>> is a hell of a lot closer to BSD then it is to Linux. I also see >>> that as Microsoft continues to build the case against GPL and >>> propgandize against it, that they are increasingly going to be >>> holding up BSD as the "right" way to do Open Source. No wonder that >>> the Linux GPL people are drawing the line in the sand now between >>> BSD and GPL. They see the future and they know that ultimately, the >>> GPL is just as "un-free" as a closed source license like >>> Microsoft's. Increasingly, their aims and goals are going to be >>> different than ours. >> >> Certainly if we take your viewpoint. You've made a lot of claims >> there, but I don't see much substantiation, and the viewpoints are >> very different from what I've experienced first-hand. I work with >> some leading Linux people, and while there are many things I don't >> like about Linux, I can't see anything like what you're claiming here. > > I judge the Linux crowd by the public statements they make and the > public things that they do. There's a history of GPL people > publically putting down the BSD license, and then something like > this "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" comes along and they > make no effort to publically reach out to the BSD people. There's a history of BSD people publically putting down the GPL license, and then something like this "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" comes along and they make no effort to publically reach out to the BSD people. When they attempt to make up for it, some BSD people get up on their hind legs and doubt their motives. > Greg, I don't doubt that you are privately getting a lot of positive > strokes from various GPL people. But, it doesen't make a damn bit > of difference if they aren't translating this into actions in the > marketing arena. Can you explain what you mean by "translating into actions"? The statement above is confusing. > What I see publically is a lot of posturing from GPL that puts GPL > above everything else. I think it's reasonable to put the things you believe in above everything else. I think FreeBSD is better than Linux. Should I go and put Linux above FreeBSD? > I don't see the same posturing from BSD. That must be your perspective, then, modulo your definition of "posturing". You want those 350 mail messages? If that's not enough, I can send you another 400 or so off the less rabid Brett Glass rants. > The evidence I still haven't seen any. > is that GPL people fear the idea of BSD, I don't believe this as a general statement. Of course there are always the Brett Glass equivalents, but we need to understand that they're about as typical of the Linux^WGPL development community as the people on slashdot are. > but there's no evidence that the BSD people fear the idea of GPL. I can see at least as much evidence that some BSD people fear the GPL, possibly more. I think it's the basis of this thread. > Ultimately, all GPL and BSD are is written English words that > express an idea. They _aren't_ code. What matters is how people > that deal with those ideas react. And, so far I've seen a lot more > times that the BSD people take the moral high road when it comes to > differing with GPL and the road that GPL takes. Is "the moral high road" a euphemism for "looking down on you GPL idiots"? > Incidents like Bruce ignoring BSD in his response are just more and > more nails in the coffin of GPL<->BSD friendship. And, it's not the > BSD people that are doing the nailing. I see a lot of nails in this thread. Quite honestly, after reading what you've written, I can't blame Bruce. Remember his statement: I wonder what the BSD reaction in general would have been? Although I assume they use gcc, some of them have been rather GPL-hostile. Hopefully they'd be able to stand together with everyone else. I think this thread has vindicated his standpoint. > While I can deal with the GPL as an ideal in and of itself, I think > the BSD folks are getting irritated with the actions of the folks > around it. I think this goes both ways. Far too many people doubt the motives of the "other side". Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 18:10:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (rly-ip01.mx.aol.com [205.188.156.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9085237B424 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sdkramer@tristate.edu) Received: from tot-wd.proxy.aol.com (tot-wd.proxy.aol.com [205.188.193.131]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id VAA17305 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 21:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from boobear (AC8D946E.ipt.aol.com [172.141.148.110]) by tot-wd.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4J19iD31561 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 21:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002501c0e000$57523100$0100000a@home.org> From: "Seth Kramer" To: References: <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:09:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Apparently-From: Cskramer219@cs.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Humor a newbie. What exactly is the difference between GPL and Open Source? Further how is the licensing for BSD different from Linux distros, or BSD different from Linux for that matter? PLEASE don't flame me I'm not trying to start trouble I'm looking for information. If this isn't the sort of discussion you have on list then feel free to email me off list @ sdkramer@tristate.edu Seth "Cosmo" Kramer "I wish to God these calculations had been performed by steam." -Charles Babbage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 18:30:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422B237B42C for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id CC7186ACBC; Sat, 19 May 2001 10:57:46 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:57:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Seth Kramer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: What is GPL and open source? (was: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together") Message-ID: <20010519105746.F7513@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <002501c0e000$57523100$0100000a@home.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002501c0e000$57523100$0100000a@home.org>; from sdkramer@tristate.edu on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:09:21PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 20:09:21 -0500, Seth Kramer wrote: > Humor a newbie. What exactly is the difference between GPL and Open > Source? Further how is the licensing for BSD different from Linux > distros, or BSD different from Linux for that matter? *sigh* This looks like being a long thread. Let's see if I can put the terms into perspective. 1. Free Software is the term Richard Stallman uses for any software which is freely redistributable without fees payable to the author. 2. The GNU General Public License is a license which enforces freedom of software. A program licensed under the GPL must remain free; you can't incorporate it in something else and sell it unless you make the source code available. 3. The BSD license is a free software license which does not enforce freedom of software in the same way as the GPL. A program licensed under the BSD license may be incorporated in something else and sold. It's freer than the GPL, but it's also less attractive to big companies currently releasing their code as source, since they're worried about their competitors getting hold of their technology and incorporating it in their own for-sale products. 4. Open Source is a term Eric Raymond uses to make free software palatable to commercial entities who might look at "free software" and decide it's worth what you pay for it. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 19:17:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (ent.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F50637B424 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian_raynes@dnr.state.ak.us) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([146.63.110.115]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GDK90H00.GW0; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3B05D780.140DEB8A@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:16:32 -0800 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <20010518190114.E7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > I frankly see little evidence that the GPL worries the BSD faction. > > Then you're closing your eyes. We're continually seeing threads > bashing the GPL. Look at the thread "Stallman stalls again", in which > you participated. This thread also appears to be FUD against the GPL. I agree with Greg completely on this point. I've been a lurker on several *BSD mailing lists and some other open-source related lists and I still don't understand the problem people have with GPL vs. BSD or other free/open licenses. But there definitely seems to be a nasty tone to many of the comments regarding the GPL on this and other BSD forums that could be interpreted as "fear". And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? Unless I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make use of all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that nothing in the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, for both licenses. > >>> VA Linux, Red Hat, and all of those distributors, all of their > >>> business models are the same - at one end they suck in GPL code and > >>> at the other end spit out finished UNIX-like distributions, and make > >>> money doing it. > >> > >> They're not making money doing it. They're *trying* to make money > >> doing it. Not only that, but Red Hat has made huge contributions of GPL licensed code, including major parts of GNOME, their installer (copied and improved on by other distributors), RPM(even if I don't like it much, it is a big contribution and seems to have inspired much improvement in package management by others) and probably other pieces that I'm not aware of. People here and in even in some of the Linux forums don't seem to give them much credit for their faithfulness to the letter and spirit to the GPL. After saying all that in their defense, I should say that I like other Linux distributions better than Red Hat and I don't use GNOME or RPM if I can help it. I like the *bsds and ports/packages better. Still, Red Hat contributes back as much or more to GPL software than almost any large company. And whatever else you might criticize about GPL software, if a company is using it in compliance with the license, they cannot "steal" it or re-sell any of it without providing the source code of their "improvements" under the terms of the GPL also. BSD license allows companies to "suck in" the code and redistribute proprietary derivatives without contributing anything back. However, if that bothers you, don't release code under the BSD license. The BSD license appears to be for those who only want their software to be used - for any purpose others might find useful. It's very altruistic that way. The point of this is: Ted's criticism would apply more to companies using BSD code without contributing back than to any companies selling GPL code. > > Besides that, all of those people _personally_ made a lot of money > > by selling stock right after IPO. How do you think that Eric > > Raymond survives anyway when he has no job (other than being GPL > > playboy at various GPL conferences and such) > > I haven't investigated. But he must get a lot of book royalties. Are you sure Eric and others were able to sell their IPO shares before they fell? It is, IIRC, illegal to sell IPO shares before the passage of a certain amount of time, 6 months to a year maybe? That would have made Eric's millions a lot smaller - assuming that he actually tried to cash in his VALinux shares as soon as possible. It certainly makes news when Bill Gates sells significant amounts of MS shares. I haven't heard of the big names in the Linux IPOs selling off their shares. > >>> So, it's kind of a "friend of my enemy is my enemy" What I see in > >>> the future, is I see Microsoft porting MS Office to MacOS X - which > >>> is a hell of a lot closer to BSD then it is to Linux. I also see > >>> that as Microsoft continues to build the case against GPL and > >>> propgandize against it, that they are increasingly going to be > >>> holding up BSD as the "right" way to do Open Source. I'll believe that when I see it. They don't seem to agree that BSD license is the right way to release their own "open source" code. Of course using BSD code would be a different story. > >>> Increasingly, their aims and goals are going to be > >>> different than ours. The FSF works to make all software free software, and the GPL tries to perpetuate that. That's the only real difference in "their" goals and "our" goals. As I said above, the BSD license is used when the author wants their code used by as many programmers as possible. Using the GPL means that your software will only be used by programmers that write software that is also "free" by the GPL definition of free. Those are different aims and goals, but not of the sort that should cause so much friction between them. > >> Certainly if we take your viewpoint. You've made a lot of claims > >> there, but I don't see much substantiation, and the viewpoints are > >> very different from what I've experienced first-hand. I work with > >> some leading Linux people, and while there are many things I don't > >> like about Linux, I can't see anything like what you're claiming here. > > > > I judge the Linux crowd by the public statements they make and the > > public things that they do. I haven't really seen the public statements by the leading GPL people that are so anti-bsd as you claim. I don't know any of them first hand, but when RMS came to speak in our city, I went to listen. Many of the points he makes in a (very) lengthy discussion of the GPL/GNU project apply equally to the BSD. He just wants all software to be free. If all software was GPL software, there would be no real problem with anyone's use of anyone else's code. That's probably a bit of an idealistic (unrealistic?) vision, but then RMS seems comfortable in the role of visionary dreamer. That's a bit of a compliment, btw, society needs dreamers and visionaries to push the limits of the possible. > > There's a history of GPL people > > publically putting down the BSD license, and then something like > > this "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" comes along and they > > make no effort to publically reach out to the BSD people. > > There's a history of BSD people publically putting down the GPL > license, and then something like this "Free Software Leaders Stand > Together" comes along and they make no effort to publically reach out > to the BSD people. When they attempt to make up for it, some BSD > people get up on their hind legs and doubt their motives. I agree with both of these comments, but then these "crowds" are made up of many individuals, making it difficult to put specific words in the mouths of the whole "crowd" just because one person gets irritated and spouts off. > > I don't see the same posturing from BSD. > > That must be your perspective, then, modulo your definition of > "posturing". You want those 350 mail messages? If that's not enough, > I can send you another 400 or so off the less rabid Brett Glass rants. I've not saved all that, but I've read too much of it. > I can see at least as much evidence that some BSD people fear the GPL, > possibly more. I think it's the basis of this thread. Disappointing to me, but I believe that Greg is correct here. > > Incidents like Bruce ignoring BSD in his response are just more and > > more nails in the coffin of GPL<->BSD friendship. And, it's not the > > BSD people that are doing the nailing. > > I see a lot of nails in this thread. Quite honestly, after reading > what you've written, I can't blame Bruce. Remember his statement: > > I wonder what the BSD reaction in general would have been? Although > I assume they use gcc, some of them have been rather GPL-hostile. > Hopefully they'd be able to stand together with everyone else. > > I think this thread has vindicated his standpoint. Sad, but true. I happen to think Bruce is a pretty bright guy who has a lot of practical common sense to go along with his free software beliefs. He doesn't seem afraid to step on toes in calling it how he sees it. A lot of Linux people have taken offense to Bruce's comments at times too. I think people should be less offended by this sort of honest, blunt talk. I much prefer it to so much fake niceness. Basically, if you don't like his comments, the proper response is to do or say something to change his mind - at least you know what he really thinks. > Greg > -- > When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the > original text. > For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html I tried to comply, but Netscape no longer works as it did. I believe it still wraps outgoing messages whether I like it or not, it won't take 0 as an entry anymore. I do much better when I have PINE for email. Brian Raynes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 22:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E374F37B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 22:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4J5sDk59319; Fri, 18 May 2001 22:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Don Wilde" , "Anders Nordby" , , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:54:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@lemis.com] >Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 4:59 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Don Wilde; Anders Nordby; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; >core@daemonnews.org >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > >>> What's wrong in that? I'm a little surprised how much the advertising >>> clause worried the GPL faction, but then I'm very surprised how much >>> the GPL worries the BSD faction. >> >> I frankly see little evidence that the GPL worries the BSD faction. > >Then you're closing your eyes. We're continually seeing threads >bashing the GPL. Look at the thread "Stallman stalls again", in which >you participated. This thread also appears to be FUD against the GPL. > I should have said "GPL worries the BSD leadership" there, you are absolutely correct when you say that that there are a lot of threads bashing Stallman, although I think that a lot of that is more of a reaction against him than against the GPL. Yes, there's no shortage of BSD followers bashing GPL, and vis-versa. But, I guess I don't see the bashing being carried out by the BSD leadership, like McKusick for example. Contrast this to Linus calling MacOS X "crap" >> >> They are rapidly becoming more and more united as a) Microsoft >> becomes more active against the GPL specifically, rather than Open >> Source Software in general, and b) as the Linux distributors buy >> each other out. > >This doesn't interest esr or rms. And having been involved in a >near-buyout myself recently, I see no evidence of any unity. > Like it or not, a successful buyout _is_ unity ;-) BSDi buying Walnut Creek unified them, for example. Usually, the losers in a buyout don't see it that way. :-) And, as far as public statements, Bruce's "FREE SOFTWARE LEADERS STAND TOGETHER" document stands for itself as an example of the proof of my statement that they (meaning GPL) are rapidly becoming more united. >> by selling stock right after IPO. How do you think that Eric >> Raymond survives anyway when he has no job (other than being GPL >> playboy at various GPL conferences and such) > >I haven't investigated. But he must get a lot of book royalties. > True enough. Hmm, now who was the publisher?? ;-) > >What does all this have to do with your original statement: > Then I'll throw this right back to you and ask you what does the current lack of profitability of folks like Red Hat have to do with my statement that the GPL people have business models that are in effect big marketing machines? You were the one that held out the profitability=validity requirement, not me. > >Simplifying somewhat, "there's a shortage of developers, and open >source is the flavour of the day". There's nothing in the paragraph A concise summary of what I was saying, if a bit crude. >above which means it has to be GPL. In fact, it doesn't mention GPL. > Quite true, I did leave this out. The same forces that help GPL when more developers get into GPL, they also help BSD when more developers select the BSD license. But, I find it extremely telling that the GPL people are so much fixated on GPL that they have this whole OSI Certified Mark thing set up, (with GNU at the top of the list even though alphabetically it's supposed to be AFTER BSD) and then they turn around and bashed BSD for including an "advertising requirement" (which was total BS as this was NOT what it was) Then, after they get the requirement deleted, they take pains to say that BSD is equivalent to MIT license (without, of course, on the MIT page saying that it's equivalnet to BSD) That's BS too because BSD is an idea, not just a license, while all the MIT license is, is a license. It's like "well, BSD is OK as long as you don't mention your using it but if you use GPL by God we are going to make sure the world knows about it" > >There's a history of BSD people publically putting down the GPL >license, No - there's a history of the BSD _users_ publically putting GPL down, NOT the BSD leadership. There's also a history of the GPL users putting BSD down. But, there's ALSO a history of the GPL _leadership_ putting down BSD too. >and then something like this "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" comes along and they make no effort to publically reach out >to the BSD people. Right, exactly, this is my central point. When has the BSD leadership shafted Linux the way that Linus has shafted BSD (by extension of shafting Apple, since MacOS X is FreeBSD 3.2 plus Mach) When has the BSD leadership shafted GPL the way Bruce Perens shafted BSD by (in the early days) saying that developers shouldn't use BSD license because of the advertising clause? So what a bunch of BSD users bitch, there's plenty MORE GPL users that bitch against BSD. tit for tat. But, nothing like this exists with the leadership. From the GPL leadership's point of view, it seems as they take every subtle opportunity they can to minimize BSD. Equating to the MIT license, indeed. In contrast, the BSD leadership takes many opportunities to THANK the GNU project and GPL for producing gcc, and other utilities. Acknowledgements like this are frequently given. I don't want to harp too much on this, but in the rediculous catagory, I just looked through the little installation booklet that came with the Walnut Creek 4.2 FreeBSD CDROM. I saw 2 mentions of Linux in there, one from parallel port installation, the other from NFS installation. I challenge you to find even ONE mention of the name FreeBSD in ANY Linux installation CD. >When they attempt to make up for it, some BSD >people get up on their hind legs and doubt their motives. > How have they attempted to make up for this? I see nothing mentioning BSD at http://www.perens.com but the link to the "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" is the first link on there. > >I think it's reasonable to put the things you believe in above >everything else. I think FreeBSD is better than Linux. Should I go >and put Linux above FreeBSD? > Of course not. I think FreeBSD is better than Linux too, and I think that the BSD license is better than GPL. I also think that it's shameful that people wouldn't want to put "Portions of this software copyrighted by the Regents of the University of California, Berkeley" in their acknowledgements if they use some BSD code. And I think that people like Bruce that say a license that mandates that you give credit to the authors is a flawed license, are shameful as well. But, where your stepping over the line is when your being interviewed by news reporters and you convey the impression that GNU/GPL = Open Source, AKA Free Software. Sure, you may have a big website all about Open Source and buried in it there's a few lines about BSD - but the reporters don't read that. This is all about marketing and media manipulation. My central beef is that anytime that the GPL people do anything public, that is intended to be a media statement, they totally ignore BSD. By not asking a single BSD person to put their name on his litle manifesto of unity, this is exactly what Bruce is doing. It simply adds to the reinforcement that Open Source Software = GPL, and GPL is the only way to go. > >> Incidents like Bruce ignoring BSD in his response are just more and >> more nails in the coffin of GPL<->BSD friendship. And, it's not the >> BSD people that are doing the nailing. > >I see a lot of nails in this thread. Quite honestly, after reading >what you've written, I can't blame Bruce. Remember his statement: > > I wonder what the BSD reaction in general would have been? Although > I assume they use gcc, some of them have been rather GPL-hostile. > Hopefully they'd be able to stand together with everyone else. > >I think this thread has vindicated his standpoint. > If Bruce had approached any BSD people and been rebuffed, then you would be absolutely correct. However, he chose not to do so. Sorry, but I'm not a "turn the other cheek and slap me around some more" type of person. Bruce slapped us across the face by deliberately ignoring any BSD commentary. And then he puts a thinly veiled insult in there by the statement "I assume they use gcc" for God sakes, he knows perfectly well what the BSD people use as a complier. All he's saying there is that the BSD people should count their blessings because without gcc they wouldn't exist. Why don't you e-mail this entire thread to Bruce and invite him to make an apology for not including any recognized BSD leaders in his document, and then see if he will post _that_ on his webpage? I'll bet that all you will get is a private mealy-mouthed apology, and no public statement on his website at all. >> While I can deal with the GPL as an ideal in and of itself, I think >> the BSD folks are getting irritated with the actions of the folks >> around it. > >I think this goes both ways. Far too many people doubt the motives of >the "other side". > Well, then what are we supposed to do? Create our own "FREE SOFTWARE LEADERS STAND TOGETHER" document and get the BSD leaders to sign off on it, then go approach the GPL people and see if they will sign it too? After Bruce has stolen all the media attention? Sure, that will be real useful. There's already a document out there titled FREE SOFTWARE LEADERS STAND TOGETHER and Bruce has written it. Rah Rah for him for jumping in there and grabbing the media attention to respond to Mundie's remarks. This is a good example of clever media manipulation. Now, if Bruce wants to "bridge the gulf" he can invite the BSD people in to get some of the attention focused on this document too. Rightly we belong in there with the other signatories. I'd be happy to add my name to it. But, I don't think that there's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, or of any BSD leader being added to that, because this document, purported to be all about "Free Software Leaders" is in reality all about GPL, and wants nothing to do with BSD. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 23: 6:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7AEE37B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4J66Yk59361; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Johnson" Cc: Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:06:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0e029$dabbde00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3B055F97.CEBDC854@acuson.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: David Johnson [mailto:djohnson@acuson.com] >Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:45 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends >> (the signatories on the list of that article are a who's >> who of them) have literally made millions of dollars out of >> in effect convincing a bunch of developers to GPL their >> code, then those Open Source people have set themselves up >> in the only point in the GPL code distributon scheme (the >> nexus points) where it's possible to make a lot of money. > >Many of those signatories most assuredly are *not* GPL fanatics. Tim >O'Reilly surely isn't. Um, I happen to know that Tim O'Reilly has been approached with SEVERAL FreeBSD book projects, including my own, and has turned them all down. Well, mine is successful (at least, I'm told it is although I have yet to see sales figures) and how smart is it for a book publisher to turn down a successful book project and let a competitor take it? That was a political decision, not a professional one. Ask Greg if he's had any luck shopping HIS book to O'Reilly. Not that I have any evidence that he ever has done so, but I'd be surprised if he hasn't. I wouldn't think that Wind River is going to want to be in the book publishing business, and it's a natural and obvious move for The Complete FreeBSD to go to O'Reilly. Certainly it would enhance the book, it would enhance O'Reilly, and it would help BSD penetration. O'Reilly makes plenty of money off Linux, and has much vested interest in GPL. And, I didn't call them "fanatics", you just did. >He's one of the very few who will call RMS out to >a debate in a public forum. Larry Wall surely isn't. He came up with the >Artistic License and his dual licensing scheme so that Perl could be >accepted as "Free" by the GNU crowd while at the same time gutting every >requirement in the GPL. Note in the document that Larry Wall is identified as the author of Perl, NOT the author of the Artistic License. Minor point perhaps, but I think if you polled casual Linux users they would be surprised to find that Perl is not under GPL. Certainly many, many, probably the majority of the Perl modules ARE under GPL and Perl isn't worth much without the modules. >And Guido von Rossum isn't. Just last month he >took RMS to task for continually changing the definition of >GPL-compatibility, and said that compatibility with the GPL would no >longer be a goal for the Python license. > OK - and what changes have been made in the Python license as a result? >If this list consisted solely of Linux distributors and GNU board >members, I would agree with you. But it appears that Bruce actually did >try to get a broad slice of the Open Source community. > Except for any FreeBSD board members. That is a hole large enough to drive a semi truck through. What your saying would make perfect sense if even 1 BSD, not even FreeBSD, person was listed there. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 23: 8:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7394E37B42C for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4J68Jk59372; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Seth Kramer" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:08:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c0e02a$19daecc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <002501c0e000$57523100$0100000a@home.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Seth Kramer >Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 6:09 PM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >Humor a newbie. What exactly is the difference between GPL and Open >Source? Further how is the licensing for BSD different from Linux distros, >or BSD different from Linux for that matter? > go here http://www.opensource.org/ for details. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 18 23:13:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367AD37B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4J6Ctk59385; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brian Raynes" , "Greg Lehey" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:12:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c0e02a$bd48ffa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3B05D780.140DEB8A@dnr.state.ak.us> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brian Raynes >Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 7:17 PM >To: Greg Lehey; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? Unless >I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make use of >all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that nothing in >the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, for >both licenses. > Because, IF your desired goal of GPL is to "virally infect" all software to force it to be open, then you would rightly fear BSD because it's an alternative. Actually, it's not the BSD license that the GPL fears as much as the _idea_ of the BSD license. The BSD license assumes people will do the Right Thing and open their code. There's no hooks in there to force people to do it. GPL on the other hand forces you to open your code, and there are hooks to do it. If you want all Open Source software to be GPL "contaminated" so that it will be forced to be open forever, then the last thing you want is BSD licensing that allows people to take their modifications private. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > >> >>> VA Linux, Red Hat, and all of those distributors, all of their >> >>> business models are the same - at one end they suck in GPL code and >> >>> at the other end spit out finished UNIX-like distributions, and make >> >>> money doing it. >> >> >> >> They're not making money doing it. They're *trying* to make money >> >> doing it. > >Not only that, but Red Hat has made huge contributions of GPL licensed >code, including major parts of GNOME, their installer (copied and >improved on by other distributors), RPM(even if I don't like it much, it >is a big contribution and seems to have inspired much improvement in >package management by others) and probably other pieces that I'm not >aware of. People here and in even in some of the Linux forums don't >seem to give them much credit for their faithfulness to the letter and >spirit to the GPL. > >After saying all that in their defense, I should say that I like other >Linux distributions better than Red Hat and I don't use GNOME or RPM if >I can help it. I like the *bsds and ports/packages better. Still, Red >Hat contributes back as much or more to GPL software than almost any >large company. > >And whatever else you might criticize about GPL software, if a company >is using it in compliance with the license, they cannot "steal" it or >re-sell any of it without providing the source code of their >"improvements" under the terms of the GPL also. > >BSD license allows companies to "suck in" the code and redistribute >proprietary derivatives without contributing anything back. However, if >that bothers you, don't release code under the BSD license. The BSD >license appears to be for those who only want their software to be used >- for any purpose others might find useful. It's very altruistic that >way. > >The point of this is: Ted's criticism would apply more to companies >using BSD code without contributing back than to any companies selling >GPL code. > >> > Besides that, all of those people _personally_ made a lot of money >> > by selling stock right after IPO. How do you think that Eric >> > Raymond survives anyway when he has no job (other than being GPL >> > playboy at various GPL conferences and such) >> >> I haven't investigated. But he must get a lot of book royalties. > >Are you sure Eric and others were able to sell their IPO shares before >they fell? It is, IIRC, illegal to sell IPO shares before the passage >of a certain amount of time, 6 months to a year maybe? That would have >made Eric's millions a lot smaller - assuming that he actually tried to >cash in his VALinux shares as soon as possible. > >It certainly makes news when Bill Gates sells significant amounts of MS >shares. I haven't heard of the big names in the Linux IPOs selling off >their shares. > > >> >>> So, it's kind of a "friend of my enemy is my enemy" What I see in >> >>> the future, is I see Microsoft porting MS Office to MacOS X - which >> >>> is a hell of a lot closer to BSD then it is to Linux. I also see >> >>> that as Microsoft continues to build the case against GPL and >> >>> propgandize against it, that they are increasingly going to be >> >>> holding up BSD as the "right" way to do Open Source. > >I'll believe that when I see it. They don't seem to agree that BSD >license is the right way to release their own "open source" code. Of >course using BSD code would be a different story. > > >> >>> Increasingly, their aims and goals are going to be >> >>> different than ours. > >The FSF works to make all software free software, and the GPL tries to >perpetuate that. That's the only real difference in "their" goals and >"our" goals. As I said above, the BSD license is used when the author >wants their code used by as many programmers as possible. Using the GPL >means that your software will only be used by programmers that write >software that is also "free" by the GPL definition of free. Those are >different aims and goals, but not of the sort that should cause so much >friction between them. > >> >> Certainly if we take your viewpoint. You've made a lot of claims >> >> there, but I don't see much substantiation, and the viewpoints are >> >> very different from what I've experienced first-hand. I work with >> >> some leading Linux people, and while there are many things I don't >> >> like about Linux, I can't see anything like what you're claiming here. >> > >> > I judge the Linux crowd by the public statements they make and the >> > public things that they do. > >I haven't really seen the public statements by the leading GPL people >that are so anti-bsd as you claim. I don't know any of them first hand, >but when RMS came to speak in our city, I went to listen. Many of the >points he makes in a (very) lengthy discussion of the GPL/GNU project >apply equally to the BSD. He just wants all software to be free. If >all software was GPL software, there would be no real problem with >anyone's use of anyone else's code. That's probably a bit of an >idealistic (unrealistic?) vision, but then RMS seems comfortable in the >role of visionary dreamer. That's a bit of a compliment, btw, society >needs dreamers and visionaries to push the limits of the possible. > >> > There's a history of GPL people >> > publically putting down the BSD license, and then something like >> > this "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" comes along and they >> > make no effort to publically reach out to the BSD people. >> >> There's a history of BSD people publically putting down the GPL >> license, and then something like this "Free Software Leaders Stand >> Together" comes along and they make no effort to publically reach out >> to the BSD people. When they attempt to make up for it, some BSD >> people get up on their hind legs and doubt their motives. > >I agree with both of these comments, but then these "crowds" are made up >of many individuals, making it difficult to put specific words in the >mouths of the whole "crowd" just because one person gets irritated and >spouts off. > > > >> > I don't see the same posturing from BSD. >> >> That must be your perspective, then, modulo your definition of >> "posturing". You want those 350 mail messages? If that's not enough, >> I can send you another 400 or so off the less rabid Brett Glass rants. > >I've not saved all that, but I've read too much of it. > > >> I can see at least as much evidence that some BSD people fear the GPL, >> possibly more. I think it's the basis of this thread. > >Disappointing to me, but I believe that Greg is correct here. > > >> > Incidents like Bruce ignoring BSD in his response are just more and >> > more nails in the coffin of GPL<->BSD friendship. And, it's not the >> > BSD people that are doing the nailing. >> >> I see a lot of nails in this thread. Quite honestly, after reading >> what you've written, I can't blame Bruce. Remember his statement: >> >> I wonder what the BSD reaction in general would have been? Although >> I assume they use gcc, some of them have been rather GPL-hostile. >> Hopefully they'd be able to stand together with everyone else. >> >> I think this thread has vindicated his standpoint. > >Sad, but true. I happen to think Bruce is a pretty bright guy who has a >lot of practical common sense to go along with his free software >beliefs. He doesn't seem afraid to step on toes in calling it how he >sees it. A lot of Linux people have taken offense to Bruce's comments >at times too. I think people should be less offended by this sort of >honest, blunt talk. I much prefer it to so much fake niceness. >Basically, if you don't like his comments, the proper response is to do >or say something to change his mind - at least you know what he really >thinks. > > >> Greg >> -- >> When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the >> original text. >> For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html > >I tried to comply, but Netscape no longer works as it did. I believe it >still wraps outgoing messages whether I like it or not, it won't take 0 >as an entry anymore. I do much better when I have PINE for email. > > >Brian Raynes > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 19 7:20:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C6A37B422 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4JEKCR31958 ; Sat, 19 May 2001 16:20:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA13409 ; Sat, 19 May 2001 16:20:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 16:20:38 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010519162038.E9158@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ted Mittelstaedt , Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org References: <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:54:10PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt said on May 18, 2001 at 22:54:10: > > Yes, there's no shortage of BSD followers bashing GPL, and > vis-versa. But, I guess I don't see the bashing being carried out > by the BSD leadership, like McKusick for example. Contrast this to > Linus calling MacOS X "crap" Er, he didn't do that. He called the Mach microkernel, and the general idea of microkernels, crap. And there's nothing new in that: it's been his opinion for over 10 years. > Right, exactly, this is my central point. When has the BSD leadership > shafted Linux the way that Linus has shafted BSD (by extension of shafting > Apple, since MacOS X is FreeBSD 3.2 plus Mach) He shafted Mach, not BSD. > When has the BSD leadership shafted GPL the way Bruce Perens shafted > BSD by (in the early days) saying that developers shouldn't use BSD > license because of the advertising clause? All the BSD distributions make it clear that the "core" system (a minimal binary install) shouldn't contain GPL code. Toolchain, etc, may be GPL. > other from NFS installation. I challenge you to find even ONE > mention of the name FreeBSD in ANY Linux installation CD. Perhaps not FreeBSD. But "BSD" crops up all over the place. A large fraction of the tools in Red Hat are BSD, and rpm -qi tells you so. > wouldn't want to put "Portions of this software copyrighted by the > Regents of the University of California, Berkeley" in their > acknowledgements if they use some BSD code. And I think that people > like Bruce that say a license that mandates that you give credit to > the authors is a flawed license, are shameful as well. The problem wasn't putting one acknowledgement. It was putting additional acknowledgements for each contributor. See, for example, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html When people put many such programs together in an operating system, the result is a serious problem. Imagine if a software system required 75 different sentences, each one naming a different author or group of authors. To advertise that, you would need a full-page ad. This might seem like extrapolation ad absurdum, but it is actual fact. NetBSD comes with a long list of different sentences, required by the various licenses for parts of the system. In a 1997 version of NetBSD, I counted 75 of these sentences. I would not be surprised if the list has grown by now. > Well, then what are we supposed to do? Create our own "FREE > SOFTWARE LEADERS STAND TOGETHER" document and get the BSD leaders to > sign off on it, then go approach the GPL people and see if they will > sign it too? After Bruce has stolen all the media attention? Sure, > that will be real useful. There are plenty of other issues out there. This is my trouble with the BSD crowd: on the one hand there are claims that "we aren't into grabbing attention", on the other hand there are cribs when the linux people do. And the issues are important: the LZW patent and gifs, the DVD/DeCSS issue (in fact Johansen used a FreeBSD machine, but it was the linux people who jumped to his support), there's something new along these lines almost every week now. If it worries you that Bruce Perens is making all the noise, why don't *you* go out and make some noise yourself? My present crib with Microsoft is that I find it absolutely impossible (here in France) to buy a laptop machine that doesn't have windows pre-installed on it. If I want a laptop computer, I can't avoid paying Bill Gates, whether I use his software or not. Does that kind of thing worry you? It worries the linux people, and they do make a noise about it, and I'm sure they could use some help. Or you can start a movement about it on your own. I can think of quite a few other issues which you could take up, if these aren't important enough. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 19 13:31: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491F437B42C; Sat, 19 May 2001 13:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f4JKV6128344; Sat, 19 May 2001 13:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:31:05 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Hodge Podge Cc: kris@FreeBSD.org, uebs@gmx.at, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FW: Re: the counter is up again Message-ID: <20010519133105.A28259@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from nicole@unixgirl.com on Sat, May 19, 2001 at 01:04:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 01:04:12PM -0700, Hodge Podge wrote: > > -----FW: ----- > > Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:37:47 -0700 (PDT) > Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > From: Kris Kennaway > To: Philipp Huber > Subject: Re: the counter is up again > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, Philipp Huber wrote: > > > anyway, you now can login, search for other users, and see statistics. > > the register script blocks too high numbers of installations and other > > nonsense ;) > > > > http://miata.webaxxs.net/bsdcount/ > > or: http://bsdcount.cjb.net/ > > Why don't you coordinate with the existing FreeBSD counter and see if you > can produce a single improved version? I think it would be much more > accurate having a single "official" counter rather than two, since you > aren't likely to get everyone to sign up for both. Yes, I have running the FreeBSD counter page for a few years. I am in the process of redoing it to handle *BSD and to get better stats out of it like the Linux counter page (http://counter.li.org). The current counter page is at www.bsdcounter.org or bsd-counter.org. The new page, that is a work in progress, is at www.mooseriver.com/~jgrosch/NewCount/index.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 19 16:34:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3453337B424 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 16:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A7E506ACBC; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:03:01 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:03:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010520090301.L64759@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3B055F97.CEBDC854@acuson.com> <000101c0e029$dabbde00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000101c0e029$dabbde00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:06:33PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 23:06:33 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > On Friday, May 18, 2001 10:45 AM, David Johnson wrote: >> >> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> >>> Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends >>> (the signatories on the list of that article are a who's >>> who of them) have literally made millions of dollars out of >>> in effect convincing a bunch of developers to GPL their >>> code, then those Open Source people have set themselves up >>> in the only point in the GPL code distributon scheme (the >>> nexus points) where it's possible to make a lot of money. >> >> Many of those signatories most assuredly are *not* GPL fanatics. Tim >> O'Reilly surely isn't. > > Um, I happen to know that Tim O'Reilly has been approached with SEVERAL > FreeBSD book projects, including my own, and has turned them all > down. Well, it's not Tim O'Reilly any more, it's his editors. A bit of background: Some years ago O'Reilly printed the complete 4.4BSD Lite documentation in five volumes. It was a complete flop. As a result, they've been very wary about bringing out another book on BSD. > Well, mine is successful (at least, I'm told it is although I have yet > to see sales figures) and how smart is it for a book publisher to turn > down a successful book project and let a competitor take it? That was a > political decision, not a professional one. > > Ask Greg if he's had any luck shopping HIS book to O'Reilly. Why don't you? No, they didn't want "The Complete FreeBSD". Instead I'm writing a book for them with the tentative title "Advanced BSD System Administration". > Not that I have any evidence that he ever has done so, but I'd be > surprised if he hasn't. I wouldn't think that Wind River is going > to want to be in the book publishing business, and it's a natural > and obvious move for The Complete FreeBSD to go to O'Reilly. > Certainly it would enhance the book, it would enhance O'Reilly, and > it would help BSD penetration. Wind River has stated that they do want to be in the publishing business, though I agree that's a bit surprising. > [snipped; nothing here that we haven't already discussed] Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message