From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 8 5: 4:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE06537B423 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 107376 invoked by uid 0); 8 Apr 2001 12:04:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.221.159) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 8 Apr 2001 12:04:11 -0000 Message-ID: <3AD053AF.4743DEC4@uwi.tt> Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:03:59 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Follow up: More Win vs NIX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This guy seems to be really persistant and dug me into a hole here ... help ============ Dale, please check your sources before you post third party information, or at least try and do some of your own research before you cross post. 1. The following OSes are examples of Monolithic UNIX Kernels:Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris to name the most popular. Can you name any commercial/mainstream UNIX OS that comes microkernel out of the box, apart from GNU Hurd? I emphasize the point by quoting the previous author: "Unix does not use a monolithic kernel. Most Unix implementations do,....." <- does this guy know what he is really saying?? He goes further by saying: "there is no reason why it can't run on a microkernel"<- again showing that it does not. Yes, I admit that you don't have to reboot for SOME driver installations (you can compile and load drivers at runtime), but the fact remains that the fundamental problem of a bloated kernel and of having to LOAD drivers and services into ring 0 still exists. 2. SunView was available in 1985 not 1984, after Ms released Windows 1.0. Please see the comp.unix newsgroup for the latest version of the UNIX FAQ. You can use the following for references. Archive-name: unix-faq/faq/part6 Version: $Id: part6,v 2.9 1996/06/11 13:07:56 tmatimar Exp $ X was first commercially released in 1986. see the front page of the www.x.org website. 3. True, Mac OS-X uses a mach kernel, not a monolithic one. But if you want to call Max OS-X UNIX.. be my guest. 4. Yes, many RFCs were developed on the UNIX system. However Kerberos was not ported as the author says, it was written according to RFC. In fact most UNIX guys complain about Microsoft's non-standard implementation of Kerberos because they used 5 reserved bytes in the protocol.... Lest we stray from the original point, that Microsoft has been allegedly stealing from UNIX from day one. There is a reason why people write RFCs... 5. The fact that the author thinks that the Windows interface is the least user friendly just shows that he may need to find a proctologist to locate his head. 6. I stand corrected on the IP Address change. I always rebooted after I run ifconfig. I was not aware that reloading the interface after running ifconfig on Linux would avoid having to reboot. However, according to Sun Documentation: http://docs.sun.com, the reccomended procedure involves running sys-unconfig and rebooting. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 8 7:20:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B2A637B422 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 07:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 53967 invoked by uid 100); 8 Apr 2001 14:20:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15056.29595.184747.316107@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 09:20:11 -0500 To: Dale Chulhan - Home Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Follow up: More Win vs NIX In-Reply-To: <3AD053AF.4743DEC4@uwi.tt> References: <3AD053AF.4743DEC4@uwi.tt> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dale Chulhan - Home types: > This guy seems to be really persistant and dug me into a hole here ... > help I don't think you're in a hole. I think he's about given up on technical arguments, and is resorting to name-calling. > ============ > > Dale, please check your sources before you post third party information, > or > at least try and do some of your own research before you cross post. > > 1. The following OSes are examples of Monolithic UNIX Kernels:Linux, > FreeBSD > and Solaris to name the most popular. > Can you name any commercial/mainstream UNIX OS that comes > microkernel out > of the box, apart from GNU Hurd? Note that he's given up arguing that Unix is bad because you have to reboot it to load a new driver - which is clearly a misfeature - and is now assuming that a micro-kernel is "a good thing". That's an opinion, and one that is largely irrelevant to users. I'd also like to know why the user benefits of the microkernel don't extend to the GUI - or if they do, where I can find documentation to take advantage of that. On most Unix variants, I can change the window manager, the desktop manager, or the entire GUI subsystem without having to reboot the system. On some of them, I can even run completely different GUI environments on different monitors, or possibly even on virtual monitors. Can I change any of those components on MS-Windows, and can I do it without rebooting? > 3. True, Mac OS-X uses a mach kernel, not a monolithic one. But if you > want > to call Max OS-X UNIX.. be my guest. It has a command line. It the has utilities one expects to find on Unix. It has enough of a development environment that I can compile and run lots of Unix software. From what I can tell, it's closer to Unix than AIX. It certainly qualifies as a mainstream system. > 2. SunView was available in 1985 not 1984, after Ms released Windows > 1.0. > Please see the comp.unix newsgroup for the latest version of the UNIX > FAQ. > You can use the following for references. > Archive-name: unix-faq/faq/part6 > Version: $Id: part6,v 2.9 1996/06/11 13:07:56 tmatimar Exp $ > X was first commercially released in 1986. see the front page of > the > www.x.org website. That merely means the first Sun windowing system wasn't SunView, but something else (SunTools?). The FAQ is just notable achievements, not firsts. For instance, Sun had a network disk protocol before NFS - but as the faq indicates by not mentioning it, ND is best forgotten. > 4. Yes, many RFCs were developed on the UNIX system. However Kerberos > was > not ported as the author says, it was written according to RFC. In fact > most > UNIX guys complain about Microsoft's non-standard implementation of > Kerberos > because they used 5 reserved bytes in the protocol.... > Lest we stray from the original point, that Microsoft has been allegedly > stealing from UNIX from day one. There is a reason why people write > RFCs... I'm pretty sure kerberos source was used under the BSD license, but can't find the reference. On the other hand, I didn't claim that MS was stealing from Unix. I think the opposite is generally true - I think MS pretty much ignores everything outside of their own source tree, so they can claim their reinvented wheels are innovative, even if they aren't quite circular. Since he brought it up - there is a reason that people write RFCs: so that people who've never talked to each other can write software that works together. MicroSoft seems to have missed the point, and treats RFCs as legal documents to search for "loopholes" that let them write incompatible extensions. That's in contrast to the recommended practice of accepting for the loosest interpretation of the standard and and generating for tightest. > 5. The fact that the author thinks that the Windows interface is the > least user friendly just shows that he may need to find a > proctologist to locate his head. Really solid, technical argument here. In my experience, the same could be said for anyone who claims that X + Unix is a slower windowing system than MS-Windows suffers from the same problem; X + Unix is quite usable on hardware that MS-Windows can barely boot on, much less do anything useful. However, I'm not going to argue with other people's perceptions, just report my own. Returning to which: MS-Windows is user-friendly like Ford model T came in any color you wanted. It does everything the user wants, so long as they want what it gives them. I want a system that doesn't insist that the active window be on top, and activates a window without having the extra work of clicking on it. Even Jeff Raskin now admits that the latter was a mistake, and putting the active window on top under those conditions is really, really ugly. If you think I shouldn't want those things, you're taking the MS attitude, and I think it's pretty blasted unfriendly. I've only run into three Windowing systems where those two behaviors weren't user-configurable. I don't think anyone would argue that Windows is less user-friendly than the Mac. BeOS is considered to be friendly than the Mac, but I abandoned the idea of using it as soon as I found out how unfriendly it really was. > 6. I stand corrected on the IP Address change. I always rebooted after I > run > ifconfig. I was not aware that reloading the interface after running > ifconfig on Linux would avoid having to reboot. > > However, according to Sun Documentation: http://docs.sun.com, the > reccomended procedure involves running sys-unconfig and rebooting. I can almost believe that. Changing things like the IP address and host name on Solaries is incredibly convoluted. It's not really documented anywhere, as exactly what you have to change depends on what subsystems you are using. Then again - Solaris is another Unix variant that was different enough from what people thought of as Unix that it was greeted with shock and amazement when it was introduced. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 8 13:22:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sheffield.cnchost.com (sheffield.concentric.net [207.155.252.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D238F37B422 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by sheffield.cnchost.com id QAA22402; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:22:17 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-ID: <200104082022.QAA22402@sheffield.cnchost.com> To: Joseph Mallett Cc: David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Apr 2001 00:33:24 EDT." Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:22:16 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Actually, Linus didn't really say much about OS X/Apple, he was more or > less saying that mach is crap (actually, those are pretty much his exact > words) and that apple was stupid for building on top of it. Of course, > he's a guy who almost failed an OS Design class, so maybe his opinion > doesn't matter I don't know what Torvalds had in mind but there is some evidence that Mach based OSes are slower compared to monolithic ones. A while ago there was a paper that showed MkLinux (Linux running on top of Mach) was quite a bit slower than native linux on the same hardware. Henry Massalin's thesis on Synthesis shows another comparison of a native Unix (Sony NEWS) and a mach based unix (NeXT) on the same speed h/w, where Mach has 2 to 3 times the overhead for syscall and ctx switch. You will also see criticism of Mach from people working on more modern microkernels like L4. They point out that `1st generation' ukernels like mach are not so small or fast or flexible. They too ported Linux to run as a user process on L4 and found that L4-linux was still 5% slower than a native linux. Emulating Unix API does hobble a ukernel since a couple of user/supervisor mode boundary crossing are needed for each system call. If you push more functinality in in the ukernel, it starts getting bloated and you lose some benefits of a ukernel (extensibility, fault isolation, ability to change or adapt behavior or policy). Note that QNX, a commercial ukernel OS (started way before someone coined the phrase `microkernel'), has evolved very nicely over the last 15 to 20 years and yet remained very small and efficient. ISTR the kernel fit in 8K~12K on x86. L4 is also quite small (under 12Kbytes) and is written in assembly language. Fiasco (also done at the Dresden Uni. of Tech.) implements the L4 API and is written in C++ and uses non blocking synchronization. Follow links from http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/L4 if you want to read about these. There are a number of other ukernels worth reading about (google for microkernel). There are a lot of neat ideas in these OSes but it seems that ultimately a lot of the modern OS research goes nowhere once a few PhD theses get generated and these students move on to new things. The ubiquitousness of Unix does not help either. Even a very nice os like Plan9 has a hard time dethroning Unix. Speaking which, you may also want to read Rob Pike's `System Software Research is Irrelevant' -- though i don't think the situation isn't all that bad. Bringing this back to FreeBSD, it would be neat to see the BSD API implemented on top of a tiny ukernel even if that meant a few % slowdown. The FreeBSD kernel is grown quite a lot over the years and while I applaud and marvel at the amount of new stuff added and old stuff speeded up, every time someone adds a new feature I keep thinking does it have to be in the kernel? Perhaps -current has become so fragile partially because of the kernel size and interdependency of modules. Such rearchitecting would be fun but a big task.... -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 8 14:38:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E9437B422 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA82932; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 23:38:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Dale Chulhan - Home Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Follow up: More Win vs NIX References: <3AD053AF.4743DEC4@uwi.tt> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Apr 2001 23:38:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3AD053AF.4743DEC4@uwi.tt> Message-ID: Lines: 74 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I emphasize the point by quoting the previous author: > "Unix does not use a monolithic kernel. Most Unix implementations > do,....." > <- does this guy know what he is really saying?? > He goes further by saying: "there is no reason why it can't run > on a > microkernel"<- again showing that it does not. Hrm. I wrote this. To clarify: There is not a single entity that you can call Unix. There is a collection of operating systems from different vendors which were derived from, or written to behave like, AT&T's original Unix operating system, some of which use a monolithic kernel and some of which don't. Thus, the statement "Unix uses a monolithic kernel" is meaningless. Of those operating systems we choose to call Unix, at least two that I know of use a microkernel: GNU/HURD and OS X (or rather, Darwin). In addition, there is a newly-started effort to write a Mach-based microkernel called xMach that will run a BSD (probably FreeBSD) userland. Note that FreeBSD itself does use a monolithic kernel, although most commonly-used drivers are dynamically loadable. And yes, I do believe I know a bit about this subject - I've been a FreeBSD developer for three years now, give or take a couple of weeks, and a Unix user and admin for several more. How many years' experience do *you* have writing operating systems? > Yes, I admit that you don't have to reboot for SOME driver > installations (you can compile and load drivers at runtime), but the > fact remains that the fundamental problem of a bloated kernel and of > having to LOAD drivers and services into ring 0 still exists. In FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x, most loadable drivers will be automatically loaded when you try to configure the devices they drive - e.g. typing 'ifconfig fxp0 inet 192.168.0.1' will load the fxp driver if it isn't already loaded or compiled into the kernel. > 4. Yes, many RFCs were developed on the UNIX system. However > Kerberos was not ported as the author says, it was written according > to RFC. In fact most UNIX guys complain about Microsoft's > non-standard implementation of Kerberos because they used 5 reserved > bytes in the protocol.... Meaning they violated the standard, which says these bytes are reserved for future expansion *of the standard*, which is not the same as saying they're reserved for whatever purpose the vendor chooses. > 6. I stand corrected on the IP Address change. I always rebooted > after I run ifconfig. I was not aware that reloading the interface > after running ifconfig on Linux would avoid having to reboot. There is no such thing as "reloading the interface". Just running ifconfig with the appropriate parameters immediately changes the IP address of an interface - or adds an IP address to an interface, if for some reason you want an interface to respond to several IP addresses. > However, according to Sun Documentation: http://docs.sun.com, the > reccomended procedure involves running sys-unconfig and rebooting. That's because every time a Sun user mistypes something or doesn't realize that changing the IP address will interrupt established connections, and calls Sun to complain that It's Not Working, Sun loses money. This is precisely the same reason why Windows used to claim that you needed to reboot when you'd changed the IP address (though if you just clicked "Cancel" it would work). Us Open Source types can afford to tell the user "tough cookies", but Sun and Microsoft can't. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 8 14:54:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0B937B423 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA82970; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 23:54:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bakul Shah Cc: Joseph Mallett , David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons References: <200104082022.QAA22402@sheffield.cnchost.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Apr 2001 23:54:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200104082022.QAA22402@sheffield.cnchost.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bakul Shah writes: > [...] Perhaps -current has become so fragile > partially because of the kernel size and interdependency of > modules. Such rearchitecting would be fun but a big task.... CURRENT isn't particularly fragile right now - and you obviously haven't been paying attention; the bad spots CURRENT went through earlier this year were precisely *because of* major rearchitecturing. There are currently almost 700,000 lines (22 MB) of unified diffs between the -STABLE and -CURRENT kernel sources. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 2:54:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.pandora.be (hercules.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCB9137B422 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from voutah@detroit.org) Received: (qmail 7143 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2001 09:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO MONKEY) ([213.224.80.41]) (envelope-sender ) by hercules.telenet-ops.be (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Apr 2001 09:54:28 -0000 From: "Voutah" To: "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: dynamic DNS Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:55:15 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I'm looking for a dynamic DNS provider. the IP of my cable connection changes about once in a week, I'm not sure about the exact cycletime. Can I anyone recommend a service? It would be great if it's a free service but i'm likely to pay a small amount if it's a reliable service. Maybe a stupid question: is it somehow possible to do this myself ? Like, running my own name servers ? Voutah, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 2:57:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta07.onebox.com (mta07.onebox.com [64.68.77.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5960737B423 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ctjewett@zdnetonebox.com) Received: from onebox.com ([10.1.101.5]) by mta07.onebox.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010409095749.PJDX286.mta07.onebox.com@onebox.com>; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:57:49 -0700 Received: from [64.193.153.33] by onebox.com with HTTP; Mon, 09 Apr 2001 02:57:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 05:57:49 -0400 Subject: Re: dynamic DNS From: "Christopher T. Jewett" To: "Voutah" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1BoxPartBoundary9868102691743986810269" Message-Id: <20010409095749.PJDX286.mta07.onebox.com@onebox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --1BoxPartBoundary9868102691743986810269 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline www.dyndns.org Chris ---- "Voutah" wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking for a dynamic DNS provider. the IP of my cable connection > changes about once in a week, I'm not sure about the exact cycletime. > > Can I anyone recommend a service? It would be great if it's a free > service > but i'm likely to pay a small amount if it's a reliable service. > > Maybe a stupid question: is it somehow possible to do this myself ? > Like, running my own name servers ? > > Voutah, > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com --1BoxPartBoundary9868102691743986810269 Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: vCard for Christopher Jewett YmVnaW46dmNhcmQNCnZlcnNpb246My4wDQpGTjpDaHJpc3RvcGhlciAgSmV3ZXR0DQpOOkpl d2V0dDtDaHJpc3RvcGhlciA7OzsNCkFEUjo7OzM2MjQgTmlhZ2FyYSBTdHJlZXQ7V2F5bmU7 TUk7NDgxODQtMTk1ODs7DQpFTUFJTDtUWVBFPWludGVybmV0OmN0amV3ZXR0QHpkbmV0b25l Ym94LmNvbQ0KVEVMO1RZUEU9dm9pY2UsZmF4LHByZWYsbXNnOig0MTUpIDQzMC0yMTYxIHgx MjUwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2ljZSxob21lOig3MzQpIDcyOS0yNjIwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2lj ZSx3b3JrOigyNDgpIDMyNC00NDU4eDEzOA0KVEVMO1RZUEU9cGFnZXI6KDczNCkgNTA0LTU1 ODYNClVSTDpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmthbnR1cy5jb20NCmVuZDp2Y2FyZA0K --1BoxPartBoundary9868102691743986810269-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 13:36: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9BA37B424 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA10478; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:28:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAATwaWAu; Mon Apr 9 13:28:34 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28894; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:35:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104092035.NAA28894@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:35:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG), TheTechies@onelist.com (My List), mbug@listbot.com (The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407152644.0455d9b0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Apr 07, 2001 03:28:45 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Actually, it's a great reason NOT to use the GPL. I'd hate to see what > sort of abomination Windows users would be stuck with if Microsoft > had not been able to adopt Kerberos. Microsoft's relatively minor > change to Kerberos -- similar to the minor one they made to PPP/CHAP -- > was quickly accommodated by the industry and caused no major problems > (just annoyance). That's actually incorrect. Microsoft uses a reserved field for a Microsoft-specific "cookie" that mapped into the Windows NT credential space. The author of Kerberos has come out and stated that they are using that field in a way it was not intended to be used. It is possible for your Kerberos client machines to use a Windows box as a Kerberos server. It is _not_ possible, however, to use a UNIX box as a Kerberos server for Windows machines, without losing some functionality. Because they don't document how they use the field internally, it's also not possible to participate as a doamin controller in a Windows 2000 domain, unless you are a Windows box. Effectively, this gives them control of the server market, if you need Windows 2000 desktops to operate properly. You really ought to talk to Jeremy Allison, the current SAMBA maintainer, about this issue. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 14:56:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8909837B423 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08786; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:55:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAg_aG5q; Mon Apr 9 14:55:43 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00840; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:55:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104092155.OAA00840@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: bakul@bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:55:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jmallett@newgold.net (Joseph Mallett), dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org (David Kelly), bzdik@yahoo.com (Bzdik BSD), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104082022.QAA22402@sheffield.cnchost.com> from "Bakul Shah" at Apr 08, 2001 01:22:16 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You will also see criticism of Mach from people working on > more modern microkernels like L4. They point out that `1st > generation' ukernels like mach are not so small or fast or > flexible. They too ported Linux to run as a user process on > L4 and found that L4-linux was still 5% slower than a native > linux. I'm not terribly impressed with L4. Their "no commercial use" license doesn't help my opinion any. At one time, I got pretty deep into the bowels of Chorus, which I fond to be very impressive (I've seen it running on a 1024 node multiprocessor). > Emulating Unix API does hobble a ukernel since a couple of > user/supervisor mode boundary crossing are needed for each > system call. If you push more functinality in in the > ukernel, it starts getting bloated and you lose some benefits > of a ukernel (extensibility, fault isolation, ability to > change or adapt behavior or policy). It's the protection domain crossing that kills performance in Mach; in particular, the external pagers. You can alleviate this by using statistical memory protection, and running everything out of the same protection domain. Some of the Mach design decisions scream that all the world is a VAX. > There are a lot of neat ideas in these OSes but it seems that > ultimately a lot of the modern OS research goes nowhere once > a few PhD theses get generated and these students move on to > new things. The ubiquitousness of Unix does not help either. > Even a very nice os like Plan9 has a hard time dethroning > Unix. Speaking which, you may also want to read Rob Pike's > `System Software Research is Irrelevant' -- though i don't > think the situation isn't all that bad. Given my druthers, I think Inferno is better than Plan9, as an example microkernel. I think that the licensing costs for both, as well as the yearly subscription renewal requirement, are why neither are gaining any real ground. > Bringing this back to FreeBSD, it would be neat to see the > BSD API implemented on top of a tiny ukernel even if that > meant a few % slowdown. The FreeBSD kernel is grown quite a > lot over the years and while I applaud and marvel at the > amount of new stuff added and old stuff speeded up, every > time someone adds a new feature I keep thinking does it have > to be in the kernel? Perhaps -current has become so fragile > partially because of the kernel size and interdependency of > modules. Such rearchitecting would be fun but a big task.... That's what the Lites project was all about. Unfortunately, the only really good microkernel implementations out there are very expensive closed source products. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 15: 0:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD90B37B423 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 31810 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Apr 2001 21:59:59 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:59:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Terry Lambert Cc: Bakul Shah , David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: <200104092155.OAA00840@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, xMach is doing the BSD on Mach thing modern times =) And I don't see why people feel the need to rip on Mach every time microkernels come up, I suppose nobody knows about Unicos/mk. Yeah, that had lots of slowdowns and wasn't scalable at all. Oops, I guess my XML is invalid as I forgot the opening sarcasm tag! HEH. You can do good things with Mach if you try. If you're FSF, you'll whinge about wanting to move to L4. By the way, I'm working on the FFS implementation in xMach right now, trying to ensure that we pick up speed in that area. In fact, right now I've got a headache due to working on softdep, snapshots, and background fsck =) /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > You will also see criticism of Mach from people working on > > more modern microkernels like L4. They point out that `1st > > generation' ukernels like mach are not so small or fast or > > flexible. They too ported Linux to run as a user process on > > L4 and found that L4-linux was still 5% slower than a native > > linux. > > I'm not terribly impressed with L4. Their "no commercial use" > license doesn't help my opinion any. > > At one time, I got pretty deep into the bowels of Chorus, > which I fond to be very impressive (I've seen it running on > a 1024 node multiprocessor). > > > > Emulating Unix API does hobble a ukernel since a couple of > > user/supervisor mode boundary crossing are needed for each > > system call. If you push more functinality in in the > > ukernel, it starts getting bloated and you lose some benefits > > of a ukernel (extensibility, fault isolation, ability to > > change or adapt behavior or policy). > > It's the protection domain crossing that kills performance in > Mach; in particular, the external pagers. > > You can alleviate this by using statistical memory protection, > and running everything out of the same protection domain. > > Some of the Mach design decisions scream that all the world is > a VAX. > > > > There are a lot of neat ideas in these OSes but it seems that > > ultimately a lot of the modern OS research goes nowhere once > > a few PhD theses get generated and these students move on to > > new things. The ubiquitousness of Unix does not help either. > > Even a very nice os like Plan9 has a hard time dethroning > > Unix. Speaking which, you may also want to read Rob Pike's > > `System Software Research is Irrelevant' -- though i don't > > think the situation isn't all that bad. > > Given my druthers, I think Inferno is better than Plan9, as an > example microkernel. > > I think that the licensing costs for both, as well as the yearly > subscription renewal requirement, are why neither are gaining > any real ground. > > > > Bringing this back to FreeBSD, it would be neat to see the > > BSD API implemented on top of a tiny ukernel even if that > > meant a few % slowdown. The FreeBSD kernel is grown quite a > > lot over the years and while I applaud and marvel at the > > amount of new stuff added and old stuff speeded up, every > > time someone adds a new feature I keep thinking does it have > > to be in the kernel? Perhaps -current has become so fragile > > partially because of the kernel size and interdependency of > > modules. Such rearchitecting would be fun but a big task.... > > That's what the Lites project was all about. Unfortunately, > the only really good microkernel implementations out there are > very expensive closed source products. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 16: 3:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from valiant.cnchost.com (valiant.concentric.net [207.155.252.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93EE237B423 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:03:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by valiant.cnchost.com id TAA20542; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:03:07 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-ID: <200104092303.TAA20542@valiant.cnchost.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: jmallett@newgold.net (Joseph Mallett), dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org (David Kelly), bzdik@yahoo.com (Bzdik BSD), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:55:28 -0000." <200104092155.OAA00840@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:03:07 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not terribly impressed with L4. Their "no commercial use" > license doesn't help my opinion any. Are you saying you are not impressed with L4's technology or its licence? If the latter, you should look at Fiasco as it implements the same API and is under GPL. > At one time, I got pretty deep into the bowels of Chorus, > which I fond to be very impressive (I've seen it running on > a 1024 node multiprocessor). Yes indeed. I failed to mention it. I'd like to get my hands on a Usenix winter '91 paper by Chorus people about ukernels and unix. > Given my druthers, I think Inferno is better than Plan9, as an > example microkernel. I believe calling either os a microkernel will rile the Bell Labs guys mightily!:-) But plan9 does seem very nice, elegant, modular and quite simple. Inferno runs on top of Plan9 (whether it runs natively as well I do not know). `given my druthers'. Does it come from "I'd rather"? > I think that the licensing costs for both, as well as the yearly > subscription renewal requirement, are why neither are gaining > any real ground. Plan9 has been open-sourced for a while now. See plan9.bell-labs.com. Too bad it was not open sourced 10 years ago when it could've had the impact it deserves. Judging from reading comp.os.plan9 now and then I get the feeling plan9 is slowly winning converts. Inferno has been transferred lock, stock and barrel to Vitanuovo. > > Bringing this back to FreeBSD, it would be neat to see the > > BSD API implemented on top of a tiny ukernel even if that > > meant a few % slowdown. The FreeBSD kernel is grown quite a > > lot over the years and while I applaud and marvel at the > > amount of new stuff added and old stuff speeded up, every > > time someone adds a new feature I keep thinking does it have > > to be in the kernel? Perhaps -current has become so fragile > > partially because of the kernel size and interdependency of > > modules. Such rearchitecting would be fun but a big task.... > > That's what the Lites project was all about. Unfortunately, > the only really good microkernel implementations out there are > very expensive closed source products. Fiasco is open. If you don't like it, L4 interface is simple enough to reengineer from scratch relatively straight forwardly. QNX is not free but can also serve as a good model for what to factor out in a ukernel. But just porting FreeBSD on top of such a kernel wouldn't be worth it. One would have to tear apart intertwined modules and reduce their interdependencies, simplify and thereby generalize various subsystems and so on. Probably better to start from scratch, build a framework and start implementing syscalls and reintroduce code (treat FreeBSD as a collection of very borrowable code fragments). I know, a lot of handwaving! On the other hand plan9 seems like an eminently usable system. Just imagine, you can mount tarfiles, zipfiles, mailbox, dump tapes and so on as filesystems and (from what I hear) it is easy to create a fs server for any such collection of objects. I'll have to find out for myself.... -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 16:33:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from marlborough.cnchost.com (marlborough.concentric.net [207.155.248.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1EB37B43E for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by marlborough.cnchost.com id TAA25929; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:33:07 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-ID: <200104092333.TAA25929@marlborough.cnchost.com> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: Your message of "08 Apr 2001 23:54:21 +0200." Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:33:07 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > CURRENT isn't particularly fragile right now - and you obviously > haven't been paying attention; the bad spots CURRENT went through > earlier this year were precisely *because of* major rearchitecturing. That is my perception but I admit I have not been paying a lot of attention so I'll accept your word about its fragility. One clarification: I had in mind a total rearchitecting (as hand-waved in my response to Terry in the same thread), not the kind you are talking about. > There are currently almost 700,000 lines (22 MB) of unified diffs > between the -STABLE and -CURRENT kernel sources. I rest my case :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 16:42:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D365937B423 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:42:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010409234239.11250.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.119.1.78] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:42:39 PDT Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:42:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Unspecified OS... To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42912,00.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 18: 3:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FA637B423; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2B4D66ACB8; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:33:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:33:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Jordan Hubbard , dillon@earth.backplane.com, jkh@narf.osd.bsdi.com, bright@wintelcom.net, ache@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org, iedowse@maths.tcd.ie Subject: The K in jkh (was: cvs commit: src/sbin/mount_nfs mount_nfs.c) Message-ID: <20010410103323.D19180@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010409104205Y.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <17606.986841613@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <17606.986841613@critter>; from phk@critter.freebsd.dk on Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:40:13PM +0200 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Monday, 9 April 2001 at 20:40:13 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20010409104205Y.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>, Jordan Hubbard writes: > >> You know the story of Rumplestillskin, don't you? Well, my >> middle name is similarly enigmatic. :) > > I wonder if in the next act we'll see Jordan arriving sailing on > a swan with the entrance of "Nie sollst du mich befragen..." [*] > > > Poul-Henning > > [*] If you need to read the footnote, you need some culture! [**] > > [**] Allright, "Wagner", "Lohengrin", OK ? And the translation is "Never shallst thou ask me". I wonder if a swan would make a good sheep substitute. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 18:58:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F8237B422 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EF3C46ACB7; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:28:20 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:28:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jens Schweikhardt Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Tastes in beer (was: style(9) was: Intro speech) Message-ID: <20010410112820.H64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010408213406.A1488@schweikhardt.net> <20010408202637.C29284@peorth.iteration.net> <20010409192858.B1981@schweikhardt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010409192858.B1981@schweikhardt.net>; from schweikh@schweikhardt.net on Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 07:28:58PM +0200 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [diverted to -chat] On Monday, 9 April 2001 at 19:28:58 +0200, Jens Schweikhardt wrote: >>> If you ever come to Germany, near Stuttgart, you have a place to stay. >>> My home is your home. No need to bring beer. >> >> What? You mean that you don't want to drink Taiwan Beer(TM)? :-) > > Ok guys and gals: bring all the beer you can carry! Not Taiwan beer! He's poisoned us all with it already! > We can have a double-blind test for the best beer in the world. If > your from OZ, Carlton Cold and VB are my favorites. Hmm. You obviously need some education. There's a good chance I'll be in Böblingen in the future, so I'll bring some real Australian Beer. http://www.coopers.com.au/ Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 19: 8:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3078937B424 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:08:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA13973; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:08:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAYja4oB; Mon Apr 9 19:08:31 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26155; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:08:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104100208.TAA26155@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: bakul@bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:08:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jmallett@newgold.net (Joseph Mallett), dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org (David Kelly), bzdik@yahoo.com (Bzdik BSD), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104092303.TAA20542@valiant.cnchost.com> from "Bakul Shah" at Apr 09, 2001 04:03:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'm not terribly impressed with L4. Their "no commercial use" > > license doesn't help my opinion any. > > Are you saying you are not impressed with L4's technology or > its licence? If the latter, you should look at Fiasco as it > implements the same API and is under GPL. It's technology. It's interesting that Fiasco appears to address all of the issues I had with L4. Thanks for the pointer. IMO, there's no reason to go with L4, since it can't support hard RT. For anyone else: http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/fiasco/ > > At one time, I got pretty deep into the bowels of Chorus, > > which I fond to be very impressive (I've seen it running on > > a 1024 node multiprocessor). > > Yes indeed. I failed to mention it. I'd like to get my > hands on a Usenix winter '91 paper by Chorus people about > ukernels and unix. We ("We" was "Novell/USG" back in 1993) had NetWare and SVR4 running at the same time on top of Chorus. > > Given my druthers, I think Inferno is better than Plan9, as an > > example microkernel. > > I believe calling either os a microkernel will rile the Bell > Labs guys mightily!:-) But plan9 does seem very nice, > elegant, modular and quite simple. Inferno runs on top of > Plan9 (whether it runs natively as well I do not know). This thread started with someone claiming NT was a microkernel architecture. Unlike the Mach folks, I judge "micro" by size. 8-). > `given my druthers'. Does it come from "I'd rather"? Yes; usually, I avoid colloquialisms like that, but it seemed to fit the situation. > > I think that the licensing costs for both, as well as the yearly > > subscription renewal requirement, are why neither are gaining > > any real ground. > > Plan9 has been open-sourced for a while now. See > plan9.bell-labs.com. Too bad it was not open sourced 10 > years ago when it could've had the impact it deserves. > Judging from reading comp.os.plan9 now and then I get the > feeling plan9 is slowly winning converts. Inferno has been > transferred lock, stock and barrel to Vitanuovo. Yes, there are a couple of companies in the Silicon Valley area that are using it for their embedded system OS. Given the partitioning it enforces, the biggest complaint I've heard is that you have to drag things like strcpy() around with you wherever you go, which is not pretty. > > That's what the Lites project was all about. Unfortunately, > > the only really good microkernel implementations out there are > > very expensive closed source products. > > Fiasco is open. If you don't like it, L4 interface is simple > enough to reengineer from scratch relatively straight > forwardly. Well, I don't like the license, but the GPL is a lot better than the one on L4. > QNX is not free but can also serve as a good > model for what to factor out in a ukernel. But just porting > FreeBSD on top of such a kernel wouldn't be worth it. One > would have to tear apart intertwined modules and reduce their > interdependencies, simplify and thereby generalize various > subsystems and so on. Probably better to start from scratch, > build a framework and start implementing syscalls and > reintroduce code (treat FreeBSD as a collection of very > borrowable code fragments). I know, a lot of handwaving! I was really disappointed that FreeBSD never really bit the hard RT bullet, back when there was opportunity for it to do so. When John Dyson went off on his "new kernel" crusade originally, the reason I didn't participate was that it wasn't going to support hard RT. I just didn't really see the point, unless it was going to be able to do something that the current kernel could not, and lacking RT is the number one deficiency in FreeBSD, in my opinion. The problem with FreeBSD is that a lot of the lower level code is not deterministic with regard to running time. People will now argue endlessly about whether PC hardware can run Hard RT, I'm sure. > On the other hand plan9 seems like an eminently usable > system. Just imagine, you can mount tarfiles, zipfiles, > mailbox, dump tapes and so on as filesystems and (from what > I hear) it is easy to create a fs server for any such > collection of objects. I'll have to find out for myself.... You can do the same thing in FreeBSD, fairly trivially; I don't see how it's much different than portals; someone was complaining the other day about FreeBSD not having the Windows "control panel" feature, where you are not actually looking at a filesystem object, you are looking at a DLL loaded into your shell as a shell extension; I pointed out portals and got back "Oh.". 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 9 20:38:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thunderer.cnchost.com (thunderer.concentric.net [207.155.252.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2EF637B422 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:38:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by thunderer.cnchost.com id XAA17959; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:38:38 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-ID: <200104100338.XAA17959@thunderer.cnchost.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:08:26 -0000." <200104100208.TAA26155@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:38:38 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was really disappointed that FreeBSD never really bit the hard > RT bullet, back when there was opportunity for it to do so. When > John Dyson went off on his "new kernel" crusade originally, the > reason I didn't participate was that it wasn't going to support > hard RT. I just didn't really see the point, unless it was going > to be able to do something that the current kernel could not, and > lacking RT is the number one deficiency in FreeBSD, in my opinion. My usual gripe is about system complexity (and FreeBSD is only one of the things I complain about!). FreeBSD seems far too complex for the functionality it provides but I don't see that changing significantly without a bottom up redesign. I assume that hard realtime is something one can't do in a very complex system like FreeBSD except in a very limited sense so there is no point in worrying about it until you have a tiny kernel with a known bound on non-preemptability (how long you block threads out). But this can only happen if a small group of like-minded people devote a bunch of time to it and *finish* the task (just because it is fun to do). Most people won't see a need for such a redesign and it has to be done in a skunkworks mode. > The problem with FreeBSD is that a lot of the lower level code is > not deterministic with regard to running time. People will now > argue endlessly about whether PC hardware can run Hard RT, I'm > sure. I believe you! Way back when I have debugged a QNX based Intel286 system that was used for speech synthesis where hard realtime is a must -- IIRC the phonemes were fed by the s/w to the sound card at the correct rate! > You can do the same thing in FreeBSD, fairly trivially; I don't > see how it's much different than portals; someone was complaining > the other day about FreeBSD not having the Windows "control panel" > feature, where you are not actually looking at a filesystem object, > you are looking at a DLL loaded into your shell as a shell > extension; I pointed out portals and got back "Oh.". 8-). Can you do the equivalent of # Create a tar file $ cd / $ tar cf /sys.tar sys # mount the tar file $ mount -t /my-sys sys.tar $ cd /my-sys/i386 Makefile conf ibcs2 isa pci apm i386 include linux svr4 You need the ability to deliver open/close/read/write/lseek etc. calls to the portal object. I didn't think you could do that with portals. A code sample that points me in the right dir will be gratefully accepted. If the tar image contains a special device I should be able to use it as a special device! I should be able to use this fs via nfs or make it participate in filesystem overlays (incorrectly called the `union' file system). One should be able to implement compressed or encrypted file systems as well. -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 0: 4:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BD037B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06461; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:03:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410005926.00d937b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:03:29 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG), TheTechies@onelist.com (My List), mbug@listbot.com (The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group) In-Reply-To: <200104092035.NAA28894@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407152644.0455d9b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:35 PM 4/9/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Microsoft uses a reserved field for a Microsoft-specific "cookie" >that mapped into the Windows NT credential space. > >The author of Kerberos has come out and stated that they are >using that field in a way it was not intended to be used. All true! >It is possible for your Kerberos client machines to use a >Windows box as a Kerberos server. > >It is _not_ possible, however, to use a UNIX box as a Kerberos >server for Windows machines, without losing some functionality. Whenever one uses Windows machines, one loses some functionality. ;-) >Because they don't document how they use the field internally, >it's also not possible to participate as a doamin controller >in a Windows 2000 domain, unless you are a Windows box. I'm sure that this will be reverse-engineered. Of course, participating in Windows 2000 domains is a bad idea to begin with, because of security problems. I counsel my clients to avoid file sharing in general and Windows file sharing in particular. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 0:32:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CA237B424 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott.mitchell@mail.com) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.92]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010410073249.EAPC285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:32:49 +0100 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01931; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:32:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20010410083212.55849@localhost> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:32:12 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: Terry Lambert , Bakul Shah Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons References: <200104092303.TAA20542@valiant.cnchost.com> <200104100208.TAA26155@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <200104100208.TAA26155@usr01.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:08:26AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:08:26AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > At one time, I got pretty deep into the bowels of Chorus, > > > which I fond to be very impressive (I've seen it running on > > > a 1024 node multiprocessor). > > > > Yes indeed. I failed to mention it. I'd like to get my > > hands on a Usenix winter '91 paper by Chorus people about > > ukernels and unix. > > We ("We" was "Novell/USG" back in 1993) had NetWare and SVR4 > running at the same time on top of Chorus. Very cool. I have fond memories of Chorus, up until the time they were aquired by Sun and dropped completely out of sight. Apparently it's now the base OS for one of Sun's RT Java OS products. I don't know if this ever made it past the vapour stage -- we (Cambridge U, at that time) had no luck getting it, or indeed any information about it -- out of Sun ~18 months ago. Oh well. Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 0:51:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-141-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D3337B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:51:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3A7pCe07465; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:51:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:51:12 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Bakul Shah Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons Message-ID: <20010410085110.A7075@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200104100208.TAA26155@usr01.primenet.com> <200104100338.XAA17959@thunderer.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104100338.XAA17959@thunderer.cnchost.com>; from bakul@bitblocks.com on Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:38:38PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:38:38PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > > You can do the same thing in FreeBSD, fairly trivially; I don't > > see how it's much different than portals; someone was complaining > > the other day about FreeBSD not having the Windows "control panel" > > feature, where you are not actually looking at a filesystem object, > > you are looking at a DLL loaded into your shell as a shell > > extension; I pointed out portals and got back "Oh.". 8-). >=20 > Can you do the equivalent of >=20 > # Create a tar file > $ cd / > $ tar cf /sys.tar sys >=20 > # mount the tar file > $ mount -t /my-sys sys.tar > $ cd /my-sys/i386 > Makefile conf ibcs2 isa pci > apm i386 include linux svr4 In theory, yes. In practice, no, because no one's written the filesystem layer for it. DES recently committed pseudofs, which is intended to abstract out a lot of the code that would be common between filesystems like this (and the likes of kernfs, sysctlfs, procfs, et al) so writing this sort of layer should now be considerably easier. Should I ever get the requisite amount of free time I might tackle this example and write it up as a "Writing a simple filesystem for FreeBSD" article. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjrSuw4ACgkQk6gHZCw343VF2wCfaE7Aptv+c1mTmGjsrso2Kn/m tEIAmwVoy22LkY0FNnbP8NghNUGxO9x3 =fSh5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 4: 5: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (rly-ip02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C8937B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 04:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from tot-te.proxy.aol.com (tot-te.proxy.aol.com [152.163.195.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id HAA09623; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.166.144.88] (AC91C7E1.ipt.aol.com [172.145.199.225]) by tot-te.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f3AB4no16384; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010410112820.H64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010408213406.A1488@schweikhardt.net> <20010408202637.C29284@peorth.iteration.net> <20010409192858.B1981@schweikhardt.net> <20010410112820.H64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:56:53 +0200 To: Greg Lehey , Jens Schweikhardt From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Tastes in beer (was: style(9) was: Intro speech) Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Apparently-From: BLKnowles@aol.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:28 AM +0930 4/10/01, Greg Lehey wrote: > Hmm. You obviously need some education. There's a good chance I'll > be in B=F6blingen in the future, so I'll bring some real Australian > Beer. http://www.coopers.com.au/ Sigh.... These wannabees think that they can compete with the *inventors* of beer? ;-) Try Chimay (all three kinds), Westmalle (all three kinds), Rochefort (all three kinds), Orval (there's only one), Westvletern, etc.... Now *that* is real beer for you, and if you're from Germany, you only need to make a short trip to Belgium (or be visited by friends from Belgium), instead of one of the other beers that would surely suffer much worse due to the length of the trip. ;-) You may also want to join the "The Linuxbierwanderung 2001", scheduled to take place from 25th August to 1st of September in and around the very picturesque town of Bouillon in the Ardennes, and fortunately very close to the town of Orval, which means they're also very fortunate to be very close to Abbaye d'Orval, where one of the very best beers in the world is still brewed in the old style. See for more information on "The Linuxbierwanderung 2001", for more information on the Duchy of Buillon, for more on Bouillon Castle ( for more pictures and for my own pictures), for the website for Abbaye d'Orval itself, for some details about Orval and their beer, and for articles on Michael Jackson's "Beer Hunter" site about trappist beers in general. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key =3D "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 5:10:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8784337B423 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3AC8kq70736 ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:08:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA25684 ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:08:45 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg Lehey , Jens Schweikhardt , "Michael C . Wu" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Tastes in beer (was: style(9) was: Intro speech) Message-ID: <20010410140845.H14673@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010408213406.A1488@schweikhardt.net> <20010408202637.C29284@peorth.iteration.net> <20010409192858.B1981@schweikhardt.net> <20010410112820.H64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:56:53PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You may also want to join the "The Linuxbierwanderung 2001", > scheduled to take place from 25th August to 1st of September in and > around the very picturesque town of Bouillon in the Ardennes, and > fortunately very close to the town of Orval, which means they're also > very fortunate to be very close to Abbaye d'Orval, where one of the > very best beers in the world is still brewed in the old style. Sounds good. The place, and the beer. I think (and hope) I'll be able to make it... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 7: 4:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF9037B424 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA24524; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:02:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAL6a4YV; Tue Apr 10 07:02:34 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05136; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:04:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104101404.HAA05136@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:04:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG), TheTechies@onelist.com (My List), mbug@listbot.com (The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410005926.00d937b0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Apr 10, 2001 01:03:29 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Because they don't document how they use the field internally, > >it's also not possible to participate as a doamin controller > >in a Windows 2000 domain, unless you are a Windows box. > > I'm sure that this will be reverse-engineered. Only if the entire ActiveDirectory architecture is reverse engineered. The cookie is an OID identifier (opaque, of course). > Of course, participating in Windows 2000 domains is a bad > idea to begin with, because of security problems. > > I counsel my clients to avoid file sharing in general > and Windows file sharing in particular. It's hard to find a shop that doesn't have at least some Windows servers. Because of certain tools requirements, even Whistle had NT servers around (ask Julian about it some time when you have a beer in front of you already). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 7:35:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C687E37B424; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA07797; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:28:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAcKaynp; Tue Apr 10 07:28:17 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05799; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:35:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104101435.HAA05799@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: nik@freebsd.org (Nik Clayton) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:35:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bakul@bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010410085110.A7075@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> from "Nik Clayton" at Apr 10, 2001 08:51:12 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > $ cd /my-sys/i386 > > Makefile conf ibcs2 isa pci > > apm i386 include linux svr4 > > In theory, yes. In practice, no, because no one's written the > filesystem layer for it. > > DES recently committed pseudofs, which is intended to abstract out a lot > of the code that would be common between filesystems like this (and the > likes of kernfs, sysctlfs, procfs, et al) so writing this sort of layer > should now be considerably easier. Should I ever get the requisite > amount of free time I might tackle this example and write it up as a > "Writing a simple filesystem for FreeBSD" article. I wrote something similar for ZIP archives back in the FreeBSD 3.1 days; realize that my FreeBSD 3.1 was substantially different than the one everyone else was running, since I had dealt with the VOP_{GE|PU}TPAGES() and vm_object_t aliasing in issue (via VOP_GET_FINALVP()) a long time ago. Some of what made it into 5.0 recently was substantially similar to what I've been running since about 1.5 (June 1994). I still maintain that, no matter how you look at it, much of the defaultfs code was a mistake. The problem with that approach is that it results in default valid, rather than default invalid, ops, and that it's not extensible to anonymous VOP backing objects. What that effectively means is that there are now versioning problems when proxying argument descriptors between machines. Before defaultfs, it was possible to proxy a VOP from one machine to another through a third intermediate machine, without the intermediate machine getting in your way. Similarly, it was also possible to proxy into user space and back into kernel space (if you were to proxy the cache coherency through VOP_{GE|PU}TPAGES() so that coherency was explicit). Now an intermediate machine can get in your way. The original design was supposed to permit you to do something like mount a DVD on one machine, pass its data through a CODEC on another, and read a raw video stream with all frames interpolated on yet another. The original FICUS work had a network and a user space proxy; it was a SunOS project, so there was no unified VM and buffer cache, so all of the coherency points were explicit, rather than implicit. Unfortunately, FreeBSD would have to backtrack quite a way to get the coherency picture right these days (using OpenBSD as a living non-unified reference would probably be the best approach). Such an approach is *vastly* superior to NFS (though v4 does finally deal with the locking issue and distributed cache coherency issue), as it would allow arbitrary VOP extension on either side of a proxy layer. I think providing a "pseudofs" layer which could be explicitly referenced is a good step in the right direction _away_ from the "defaultfs" approach; the difference being that the reference _must_ be explicit. There are still VOPs that really need to be "veto" based, rather than call-through. VOP_ADVLOCK() and VOP_ABORTOP() are extreme examples (try porting GFS or XFS or a writeable NTFS without a working VOP_ABORTOP() that aborts operations, instead of freeing namei buffers not allocated by your VFS layer, and it will become abundantly clear very quickly). FreeBSD could also get rid of the VOP reverse lookup issue; to do that, it would need to refactor the VOP lists each time, and have default failure cases for new VOPs unknown to the underlying FS. If at the same time ir refactored (or created, in the case of new mounts) the VOP lists, if it also sorted them into their entry point ordering, according to the global descriptor list, you could achieve a significant speedup in descriptor dereference, as well as eliminate one level of indirection in the post-factored VOP list (that is, you could make the glue code effectively "go away" for instances of FSs resulting from mounts, even though it would have to stick around for the mount/unmount/refactor operations themselves). Similarly, the NFS cookie thing that finally won out (arguements in one order for FreeBSD, arguments in another for NetBSD and OpenBSD, and probably Darwin) is really ill-considered. A more correct approach would be to break the VOP in two, where there would be a seperate "snapshot current directory block smallest atomic unit" and "externalize directory entries in machine independent format" VOPs, which would let the VOP_READIR() be restarted at an arbitrary offset, without needing to appeal to cookies. As it is, I think you could barely do the job in 5.0, but that it would have taken substantial work prior to 5.0. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 7:44:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C5737B423 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26734; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:44:52 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdQEPB7a; Tue Apr 10 07:44:50 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06008; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:45:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104101445.HAA06008@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: scott.mitchell@mail.com (Scott Mitchell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:45:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), bakul@bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010410083212.55849@localhost> from "Scott Mitchell" at Apr 10, 2001 08:32:12 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Very cool. I have fond memories of Chorus, up until the time they were > aquired by Sun and dropped completely out of sight. Apparently it's now > the base OS for one of Sun's RT Java OS products. I don't know if this > ever made it past the vapour stage -- we (Cambridge U, at that time) had no > luck getting it, or indeed any information about it -- out of Sun ~18 > months ago. Oh well. Heh. "Hard RT with garbage collection in deterministic time". I have to believe it never made it past wishful thinking... though I suppose you could intentionally burn equal amounts of NOP cycles to ensure that when you did GC, it took the same number of ticks with or without the GC. Maybe you could dedicate a seperate CPU to doing the job in the background. Or you could always compile the Java to native machine code, after unrolling the scoping and replacing the GC phase with explicit frees; I was able to replicate many of the Java APIs in C++ pretty easily, with the added requirements for explicit destruction on scope boundaries for pointer referenced objects, and disallowing unconstructed object instantiation (something the JavaMail API unfortuantely does to excess). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 8:11:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F7737B423 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17891; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:11:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAihaW1I; Tue Apr 10 08:11:24 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06540; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:11:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104101511.IAA06540@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: bakul@bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:11:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104100338.XAA17959@thunderer.cnchost.com> from "Bakul Shah" at Apr 09, 2001 08:38:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My usual gripe is about system complexity (and FreeBSD is > only one of the things I complain about!). FreeBSD seems far > too complex for the functionality it provides but I don't see > that changing significantly without a bottom up redesign. I > assume that hard realtime is something one can't do in a very > complex system like FreeBSD except in a very limited sense so > there is no point in worrying about it until you have a tiny > kernel with a known bound on non-preemptability (how long you > block threads out). The main problem is kernel preemption. John's focus was on a fine grained SMP kernel, following a bottom-up redesign. But if you look at it, kernel reentrancy as a result of another processor entering, or as a result of preemption by a higher priority (RT priority) process are really equivalent. In fact, it is _easier_ to do kernel preemption than it is to do CPU reentrancy, since you don't have to deal with memory barrier instructions, like you have to when you implement synchronization primitives between CPUs. I admit that FreeBSD is far more complex than it needs to be; I recently spent some time stepping through the entire bootstrap process, from when the loader jumps to btext, through to the machine entering protected mode and getting the VM system up and operational. There is a hell of a lot of cruft in there, particularly when you consider the number of "magic" values it has lying around. Logically, it boots in real mode, crafts a VM that looks like physical memory following IPL, relocated to the kernel base address, and starts running in that VM, after which it sets up an abstract virtual memory system on top of the hardware VM management on top of the physical. It goes through a hell of a lot of redunant and parallel calculation to get there, though, and the answers aren't always equal, unless you use the right Kung-Fu, and sometimes not then. > But this can only happen if a small group of like-minded > people devote a bunch of time to it and *finish* the task > (just because it is fun to do). Most people won't see a need > for such a redesign and it has to be done in a skunkworks > mode. Most people probably don't see the need for it, even after it is complete, so there's always that risk, too. 8-). Running the OS hosted on a tight RT kernel written by someone else is a common approach, but it's far from satisfactory; an RT kernel is only as good as what you can use it for, and if you lack deterministic time device drivers, you might as well pack it in, because you're going to have no one to talk to, and I/O as a result of external events, and operations which themselves result in external events, is the name of the game. I think that one of the things we will see out of the WRS acquisition of BSDI is BSDI or a subset thereof (e.g. eBSD) being ported to be hosted on top of the VxWorks system; I don't think this would be very satisfying, overall, but I expect it to be "good enough" for enough people that it will prevent something better from happening. Whether we see FreeBSD steered away from the embedded market will be worth watching closely. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 8:27: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A037937B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3AFR0q20798 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:27:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA35095 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:27:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:27:00 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ESR's CML2 Message-ID: <20010410172659.R14673@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was reading ESR's announcement of the 1.0 release of his CML2 (Configuration menu language), which he wrote for the linux kernel: http://lwn.net/daily/cml2-1.0.php3 The main web page of the project is at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ It looked interesting to me. Is there any possibility that it could be used in FreeBSD, to make configuration easier for beginners? The problem he mainly wants to address is to make linux kernel configuration easier for beginners, by giving easy choices to them which will automatically track all dependent choices (via an X-based menu if they want), while at the same time not taking any power away from the experts. But he has designed it as a language (using python) without any specific reference to the linux kernel; so (he says) the Embedded Debian project has adopted it for both kernel and package configuration, and someone's trying to port Mozilla to it too. It seems to me that there are at least three things in FreeBSD which could benefit from this: (a) kernel configuration (b) system installation (c) the ports collection All three are pretty easy if you know what you're doing, but perhaps beginners find the process a bit challenging. The ports/packages collection does a good job of tracking dependencies, but there are problems. The most common is when you are installing A, which depends on B version 1.2, but you already have B version 1.0. If B 1.0 can be cleanly replaced with B 1.2, the system should just yank out B 1.0 altogether and replace it with B 1.2 (eg, upgrading from gtk 1.2.8 to 1.2.9) but if it cannot be simply replaced, it should install the two separately without conflict. Often it doesn't do the correct thing, and over a span of a year or so a lot of things can get messed up if you aren't careful. Maybe it can even lead to a unified ports tree, with diffs based on which BSD you're running, or something? I don't know how easily such problems can be addressed with Raymond's scheme or what sort of work is already going on, but this looked like an interesting thought, anyway. I may have some spare time in summer to play around with such things. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 8:40:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B0837B423 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10094; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:40:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410093230.00cef2c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:40:09 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG), TheTechies@onelist.com (My List), mbug@listbot.com (The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group) In-Reply-To: <200104101404.HAA05136@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410005926.00d937b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:04 AM 4/10/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I'm sure that this will be reverse-engineered. > >Only if the entire ActiveDirectory architecture is reverse >engineered. The cookie is an OID identifier (opaque, of course). Well, it's already a given that ActiveDirectory is completely proprietary and always will be, and that it's designed to lock users into Microsoft products. If one has tied one's shop into ActiveDirectory, then one has committed (not irrevocably, but completely) to being all-Windows. ("Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.") There's no point in trying to sell UNIX into a company that's done that. I know; I've watched them put the blinders on. >It's hard to find a shop that doesn't have at least some >Windows servers. These days, I've been specializing in removing them! My consulting practice has focused, more and more, on rescuing companies from Microsoft. Oddly, what does it most of the time is Microsoft's horrendous licenses, which escalate in price as soon as you're "hooked." Most of these shops are so used to unreliability and security holes that they don't even realize they can avoid these things by going with a UNIX-based solution. When they get their first dozen messages saying that a Trojan horse was trapped entering the mail system, they're utterly amazed.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 12:21:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270CE37B43E for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02758; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:21:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGGaGJe; Tue Apr 10 12:19:51 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA28994; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:19:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104101919.MAA28994@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ESR's CML2 To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:19:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010410172659.R14673@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Apr 10, 2001 05:27:00 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was reading ESR's announcement of the 1.0 release of his > CML2 (Configuration menu language), which he wrote for the > linux kernel: > http://lwn.net/daily/cml2-1.0.php3 > The main web page of the project is at > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ > > It looked interesting to me. Is there any possibility that it > could be used in FreeBSD, to make configuration easier for > beginners? I think the correct way to approach this is to move the needed configuration intelligence into the module loader. FreeBSD has some things which are configurable, but many of them are actually redundant (NKPDE springs blithely to mind as something that should be automatically determined based on the kernel base relocation address, but isn't). Most tunables are already tunable at load time, or even at runtime. The only things I see coming out of tuning is the ability to make FreeBSD _not_ run on some hardware, for the dubious benefit of not linking some drivers into the kernel, when the drivers should be modules loaded at runtime, anyway. IMO, configuration is a crutch that needs to be discarded. > It seems to me that there are at least three things in FreeBSD which > could benefit from this: > (a) kernel configuration See above. > (b) system installation > (c) the ports collection I would lump these to together as "indistinguishable from each other, in a properly designed installation management system". The big problem with ports, IMO, is the increasing reliance on GNU autoconfigure by software maintainers. I really don't see how this is properly addressed by ESR's new toy. > The ports/packages collection does a good job of tracking > dependencies, but there are problems. The most common is when you are > installing A, which depends on B version 1.2, but you already have B > version 1.0. If B 1.0 can be cleanly replaced with B 1.2, the system > should just yank out B 1.0 altogether and replace it with B 1.2 (eg, > upgrading from gtk 1.2.8 to 1.2.9) but if it cannot be simply > replaced, it should install the two separately without conflict. > Often it doesn't do the correct thing, and over a span of a year or so > a lot of things can get messed up if you aren't careful. Maybe it can > even lead to a unified ports tree, with diffs based on which BSD > you're running, or something? This is really something which can only be loosely tracked, as FreeBSD does not maintain all the code in ports, which makes it harder when someone decides to change something. Often, the first the ports maintainers hear about it is when a version has changed on a distribution file. A good compromise approach to this would be to parse distribution files for version information, and hope that the archive keeps at least one revision going back, so that the version changes can be screamed about to the user, who can then notify the port maintainer. Really, I can't see a reasonable way to have automatically done the right thing (whatever that is) for the KDE version 2.0 release (for example). There's also the concept of "preferred versions". There are a lot of ports with version numbers attached, to allow people to "prefer" an older version. Going back to the KDE example, if you were a twm user, you would probably not consider KDE a "clean replacement" for your existing desktop environment, even if you could be "upgraded" automatically, with all dependencies handled. I recently set up a build tree to build a product distribution out of about 3.6 million lines of Open Source, and which could target FreeBSD, Solaris, and AIX (as well as others; I just didn't do the small number of Makefile changes to support other platforms). With over 30 Open Source packages involved, and things like SSL and perl existing on FreeBSD by default, but not elsewhere, I had to do significant work. I ended up with a six pass build process that would let me build tools, libraries, tools, libraries, code, and dependent code. I could easily imagine that getting even more complex, the more things I added to the mix. > I don't know how easily such problems can be addressed with Raymond's > scheme or what sort of work is already going on, but this looked like > an interesting thought, anyway. I may have some spare time in summer > to play around with such things. IMO, ESR's CML is a toy. You could achieve the same thing with "make" and probably be happier with it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 14:15: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A18B37B423 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from goddard@acm.org) Received: from shootthemlater.demon.co.uk ([194.222.93.84] helo=cerebus.parse.net) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14n5Tb-000Jbo-0A; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:15:04 +0000 Received: from wbra0013.cognos.com ([10.0.0.3] helo=acm.org) by cerebus.parse.net with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14n5TT-000PFz-00; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:14:55 +0100 Message-ID: <3AD37803.E542DA6F@acm.org> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:15:47 +0100 From: David Goddard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Tastes in beer (was: style(9) was: Intro speech) References: <20010408213406.A1488@schweikhardt.net> <20010408202637.C29284@peorth.iteration.net> <20010409192858.B1981@schweikhardt.net> <20010410112820.H64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 11:28 AM +0930 4/10/01, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Hmm. You obviously need some education. There's a good chance I'll > > be in Böblingen in the future, so I'll bring some real Australian > > Beer. http://www.coopers.com.au/ > > Sigh.... These wannabees think that they can compete with the > *inventors* of beer? ;-) What - the *Egyptians*? ;) [Or so I'm told] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 15:54:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A51037B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:54:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 22:54:55 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:57:14 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Good Motherboards? Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm planning on upgrading my computer [at least the motherboard] My question is what have you guys found to be good motherboards? Or which ones should I definitely not touch? I'm looking for one that can handle about an 700+ mhz processor Currently I've been looking at AMD [Athlon and Thunderbird] as they are much cheaper than Intel Pentium III's. So what are good mobos for that kinda processor power? [right now that is all I care about, everything else depends on the price of the mobo etc etc, but for now first thing is cpu speed].....Where is a good place to buy them online [motherboard/cpu combo] -- I'm looking only to spend about 200 [maybe $300 if it's really good] ....and of course I'm looking for one that will let FreeBSD run on it with no major problems. [Want to build a good desktop system [yes FBSD makes a better desktop than linux :) ] ] on a side now, what is ftp.cdrom.com/freebsd.org running just curious. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 16:42: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFD237B423; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2F89D6ACB7; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:12:00 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:12:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Julian Elischer Cc: John Baldwin , Matt Dillon , Ian Dowse , FreeBSD Chat , "Andrey A. Chernov" , Alfred Perlstein , Jordan K Hubbard Subject: Jordan Hubbard (was: cvs commit: src/sbin/mount_nfs mount_nfs.c) Message-ID: <20010411091200.A64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3AD30340.41AA8A87@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AD30340.41AA8A87@elischer.org>; from julian@elischer.org on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:57:36AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat] On Tuesday, 10 April 2001 at 5:57:36 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 09-Apr-01 Matt Dillon wrote: >>> Ok, this has nothing to do with mount_nfs... I want to know what the >>> 'K' in Jordan's name above stands for. Middlename wise :-) >>> >>> -Matt >> >> Jason "K-Rad" Hubbard? > > probably the same as the "k" in "kre@munnari" > and if you recognise THAT reference, I'm very sorry for you.... Why? It's pretty obvious. But he's a NetBSD man nowadays. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 22: 5: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D8437B423 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18156; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:04:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410190406.044d5be0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:05:57 -0600 To: Peter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've just recently put together a new system using an Epox motherboard and a 1.1 GHz Athlon "T-Bird." It's a screamer. No incompatibility problems. Only thing that might be a conern is that the Via KT133 chipset doesn't support ECC. So you wouldn't want to use this as a server. But memory errors are rare enough that it's fine as a client. --Brett At 04:57 PM 4/10/2001, Peter wrote: >I'm planning on upgrading my computer [at least the motherboard] > >My question is what have you guys found to be good motherboards? >Or which ones should I definitely not touch? > >I'm looking for one that can handle about an 700+ mhz processor >Currently I've been looking at AMD [Athlon and Thunderbird] as they >are much cheaper than Intel Pentium III's. > >So what are good mobos for that kinda processor power? [right now that is >all I care about, everything else depends on the price of the mobo etc etc, >but for now first thing is cpu speed].....Where is a good place to buy them >online [motherboard/cpu combo] -- I'm looking only to spend about 200 >[maybe $300 if it's really good] ....and of course I'm looking for one that >will let FreeBSD run on it with no major problems. [Want to build a good >desktop system [yes FBSD makes a better desktop than linux :) ] ] > >on a side now, what is ftp.cdrom.com/freebsd.org running just curious. > > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 22: 6:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2264337B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18159; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:04:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410190636.044dfbb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:07:08 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ESR's CML2 In-Reply-To: <20010410172659.R14673@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:27 AM 4/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I was reading ESR's announcement of the 1.0 release of his >CML2 (Configuration menu language), which he wrote for the >linux kernel: > http://lwn.net/daily/cml2-1.0.php3 >The main web page of the project is at > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ > >It looked interesting to me. Is there any possibility that it >could be used in FreeBSD, to make configuration easier for >beginners? Not if it's GPLed, as I expect it is. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 22: 6:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from filk.iinet.net.au (syncopation-dns.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7104A37B424 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: (qmail 3225 invoked by uid 666); 11 Apr 2001 05:09:17 -0000 Received: from i188-081.nv.iinet.net.au (HELO elischer.org) (203.59.188.81) by mail.m.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 05:09:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3AD3E64E.E62DF496@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:06:23 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: John Baldwin , Matt Dillon , Ian Dowse , FreeBSD Chat , "Andrey A. Chernov" , Alfred Perlstein , Jordan K Hubbard Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard (was: cvs commit: src/sbin/mount_nfs mount_nfs.c) References: <3AD30340.41AA8A87@elischer.org> <20010411091200.A64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > [Moved to -chat] > > On Tuesday, 10 April 2001 at 5:57:36 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > > John Baldwin wrote: > >> > >> On 09-Apr-01 Matt Dillon wrote: > >>> Ok, this has nothing to do with mount_nfs... I want to know what the > >>> 'K' in Jordan's name above stands for. Middlename wise :-) > >>> > >>> -Matt > >> > >> Jason "K-Rad" Hubbard? > > > > probably the same as the "k" in "kre@munnari" > > and if you recognise THAT reference, I'm very sorry for you.... > > Why? It's pretty obvious. But he's a NetBSD man nowadays. ahh but did you get where the reference comes from? > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000-2001 ---> X_.---._/ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 22:21:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF0D537B423; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 775C96ACB7; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:51:05 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:51:05 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Julian Elischer Cc: John Baldwin , Matt Dillon , Ian Dowse , FreeBSD Chat , "Andrey A. Chernov" , Alfred Perlstein , Jordan K Hubbard Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard (was: cvs commit: src/sbin/mount_nfs mount_nfs.c) Message-ID: <20010411145105.A60060@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3AD30340.41AA8A87@elischer.org> <20010411091200.A64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3AD3E64E.E62DF496@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AD3E64E.E62DF496@elischer.org>; from julian@elischer.org on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:06:23PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 10 April 2001 at 22:06:23 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> [Moved to -chat] >> >> On Tuesday, 10 April 2001 at 5:57:36 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: >>> John Baldwin wrote: >>>> >>>> On 09-Apr-01 Matt Dillon wrote: >>>>> Ok, this has nothing to do with mount_nfs... I want to know what the >>>>> 'K' in Jordan's name above stands for. Middlename wise :-) >>>>> >>>>> -Matt >>>> >>>> Jason "K-Rad" Hubbard? >>> >>> probably the same as the "k" in "kre@munnari" >>> and if you recognise THAT reference, I'm very sorry for you.... >> >> Why? It's pretty obvious. But he's a NetBSD man nowadays. > > ahh but did you get where the reference comes from? At some level possibly not. I know kre, but not what the 'k' stands for. They're still bitching about him on the aussie-isp list. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 10 22:27:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7589C37B422 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14nD9i-0003Xv-00; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:27:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:27:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: HotMail still using FreeBSD? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I often read articles (as recent as last week) that mention BSD powering HotMail. Is this still the case? Migrating Microsoft Hotmail from FreeBSD to Microsoft Windows 2000 Technical Case Study "During June and July of 2000, the Hotmail site was converted from FreeBSD running Apache Web services to Windows 2000 Server running Microsoft Internet Information Services 5.0. ..." http://www.microsoft.com/technet/migration/hotmail/default.asp Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 0:37:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EC537B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA11053; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:36:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) In-Reply-To: <200104092035.NAA28894@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > It is _not_ possible, however, to use a UNIX box as a Kerberos > server for Windows machines, without losing some functionality. Thankfully, MS supports cross-realm authentication, so one can restrict the Windows boxes to their own realm to contain the suck and use cross-realm authentication to make them DTRT. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | For Great Justice! | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 3: 9:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8256637B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3BA9Gv22224; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:09:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Subject: Re: HotMail still using FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010411060454.K20908-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "During June and July of 2000, the Hotmail site was converted from > FreeBSD running Apache Web services to Windows 2000 Server running > Microsoft Internet Information Services 5.0. ..." They must have converted a few computers back: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=ad.law3.hotmail.com http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=ad.law4.hotmail.com http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=ad.law7.hotmail.com The "Last Changed" dates for those are last 12 October. -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 5: 0:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.magicwebdesign.com.br (exu.magicwebdesign.com.br [200.250.93.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10FDC37B424 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from diego@magicwebdesign.com.br) Received: (qmail 30887 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2001 11:58:20 -0000 Received: from belzebu.magicwebdesign.com.br (200.250.93.6) by exu.magicwebdesign.com.br with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 11:58:20 -0000 From: Diego Rodrigo Neufert Organization: Magic Web Design To: Peter , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:59:53 -0300 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0104110859530Q.17444@belzebu.magicwebdesign.com.br> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that the best Athlon TBIRD mobo is Asus A7V... Just dont know if it runs with FBSD, but with my RH7 it's ok... On Tuesday 10 April 2001 19:57, you wrote: > I'm planning on upgrading my computer [at least the motherboard] > > My question is what have you guys found to be good motherboards? > Or which ones should I definitely not touch? > > I'm looking for one that can handle about an 700+ mhz processor > Currently I've been looking at AMD [Athlon and Thunderbird] as they > are much cheaper than Intel Pentium III's. > > So what are good mobos for that kinda processor power? [right now that = is > all I care about, everything else depends on the price of the mobo etc = etc, > but for now first thing is cpu speed].....Where is a good place to buy = them > online [motherboard/cpu combo] -- I'm looking only to spend about 200 > [maybe $300 if it's really good] ....and of course I'm looking for one = that > will let FreeBSD run on it with no major problems. [Want to build a goo= d > desktop system [yes FBSD makes a better desktop than linux :) ] ] > > on a side now, what is ftp.cdrom.com/freebsd.org running just curious. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=20 Diego Rodrigo Neufert System Administrator / Security Manager - Magic Web Design ----------------------------------------------------------- diego@magicwebdesign.com.br www.magicwebdesign.com.br Curitiba - PR - Brasil To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 5:24:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail8.nc.rr.com (fe8.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F7837B424 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from tbird-850-win2k ([66.26.225.119]) by mail8.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:21:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:26:09 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1340791114.20010411082609@nc.rr.com> To: Diego Rodrigo Neufert Cc: Peter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? In-reply-To: <0104110859530Q.17444@belzebu.magicwebdesign.com.br> References: <0104110859530Q.17444@belzebu.magicwebdesign.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wednesday, April 11, 2001, 7:59:53 AM, Diego Rodrigo Neufert wrote: DRN> I think that the best Athlon TBIRD mobo is Asus A7V... DRN> Just dont know if it runs with FBSD, but with my RH7 it's ok... Yes, the A7V works with FreeBSD, and an 850TBIRD is *fast* As Brett mentioned, it doesn't support ECC memory (The KT133 chipset) and comes with the Promise ATA-100 controller. As for what ftp.cdrom.com runs, all I could dig up was a Xeon/500 with 4GB memory and 1/2 TB of RAID 5 storage. I used to have a link to what the machine was, but I can't seem to find it. -- Good Luck, -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com DRN> On Tuesday 10 April 2001 19:57, you wrote: >> I'm planning on upgrading my computer [at least the motherboard] >> >> My question is what have you guys found to be good motherboards? >> Or which ones should I definitely not touch? >> >> I'm looking for one that can handle about an 700+ mhz processor >> Currently I've been looking at AMD [Athlon and Thunderbird] as they >> are much cheaper than Intel Pentium III's. >> >> So what are good mobos for that kinda processor power? [right now that is >> all I care about, everything else depends on the price of the mobo etc etc, >> but for now first thing is cpu speed].....Where is a good place to buy them >> online [motherboard/cpu combo] -- I'm looking only to spend about 200 >> [maybe $300 if it's really good] ....and of course I'm looking for one that >> will let FreeBSD run on it with no major problems. [Want to build a good >> desktop system [yes FBSD makes a better desktop than linux :) ] ] >> >> on a side now, what is ftp.cdrom.com/freebsd.org running just curious. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 7:35:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A042437B422 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:35:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1087"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K29QWARCUO001FTL@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:35:49 EDT Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:37:46 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: ESR's CML2 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AD46C3A.FF68091D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410190636.044dfbb0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think it's GPLd yes, but the real show stopper is that it requires Python. For some people, adding PERL is already too much bloat....now imagine Python. Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:27 AM 4/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >I was reading ESR's announcement of the 1.0 release of his > >CML2 (Configuration menu language), which he wrote for the > >linux kernel: > > http://lwn.net/daily/cml2-1.0.php3 > >The main web page of the project is at > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ > > > >It looked interesting to me. Is there any possibility that it > >could be used in FreeBSD, to make configuration easier for > >beginners? > > Not if it's GPLed, as I expect it is. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 7:54: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7077037B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 3419 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Apr 2001 14:52:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:52:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ESR's CML2 In-Reply-To: <3AD46C3A.FF68091D@pitt.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Of course, if ESR could do something like this, any munchkin could. I could probably write something in Perl that would generate something from a file like with a format like this for options: option | OPTION_NAME | Description And for misc. directives directive | argument | Description (i.e. machine | i386 | The architecture for configuration) And then for devices device at {location1, location2} flags {possible, flag, values} etc. And then just format it nicely and use dropdown lists/multiple choice prompts for places where you have multiple values (including the ability to choose freeform/custom fiels), etc. I'm not offering to do this (yet) but if someone thinks this would be useful, it wouldn't be too hard (not hard at all even) and I imagine using Perl/Tk or something to have a gui config frontend wouldn't be hard, same for using dialog (instead of fullblown ncurses) for menu-based config. Does this sound like something we'd want, or is it kind of a ... extravagency (did I even spell that right?)? Just a thought. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > I think it's GPLd yes, but the real show stopper is that it requires > Python. For some people, adding PERL is already too much bloat....now > imagine Python. > > > Pedro. > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At 09:27 AM 4/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > >I was reading ESR's announcement of the 1.0 release of his > > >CML2 (Configuration menu language), which he wrote for the > > >linux kernel: > > > http://lwn.net/daily/cml2-1.0.php3 > > >The main web page of the project is at > > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/ > > > > > >It looked interesting to me. Is there any possibility that it > > >could be used in FreeBSD, to make configuration easier for > > >beginners? > > > > Not if it's GPLed, as I expect it is. > > > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 11:27: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A3837B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20213 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:27:03 -0400 (EDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Python IDE for FreeBSD, GO VOTE :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org www.wingide.com has a vote taking place on their front page for where to port their IDE suite for Python development to next. Macintosh is number one with 23 votes, FreeBSD is second with 15. I urge everyone who develops python on freebsd and would like a nice GUI IDE to go cast youre vote for freebsd :-) ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 11:34:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from backup.enteract.com (backup.enteract.com [207.229.143.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9F837B422 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3BIYBd59316; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:34:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:34:10 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: Neill Robins Cc: Diego Rodrigo Neufert , Peter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? In-Reply-To: <1340791114.20010411082609@nc.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Neill Robins wrote: : : :As for what ftp.cdrom.com runs, all I could dig up was a Xeon/500 with :4GB memory and 1/2 TB of RAID 5 storage. I used to have a link to what :the machine was, but I can't seem to find it. : It was some big Micron box, as I recall. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 12:38:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD1F37B422 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rivas45@sprintmail.com) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-003njnbruP307.dialsprint.net [168.191.61.173]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18346; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:38:14 -0400 From: Eric Rivas To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd@nc.rr.com, diego@magicwebdesign.com.br, fbsdq@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? Message-Id: <20010411153814.044d3a55.rivas45@sprintmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1340791114.20010411082609@nc.rr.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.62 (GTK+ 1.2.9; i386--freebsd3.5) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:34:10 -0500 (CDT) David Scheidt wrote: > On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Neill Robins wrote: > > : > : > :As for what ftp.cdrom.com runs, all I could dig up was a Xeon/500 with > :4GB memory and 1/2 TB of RAID 5 storage. I used to have a link to what > :the machine was, but I can't seem to find it. > : > It was some big Micron box, as I recall. Here's some specs: ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.txt And a picture: ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg > > -- > dscheidt@tumbolia.com > Bipedalism is only a fad. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Eric J. Rivas, KC2HMV email=rivas45@sprintmail.com www=http://home.sprintmail.com/~rivas45/ icq=61930546 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 14:19:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.zuhause.org (zuhause.org [205.215.217.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5346737B422 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bruce@zuhause.org) Received: by mail.zuhause.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8F6177C64; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:19:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce Albrecht MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15060.51781.307765.970025@celery.zuhause.org> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:19:01 -0500 (CDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unspecified OS... In-Reply-To: <20010409234239.11250.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010409234239.11250.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bzdik BSD writes: > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42912,00.html If the space station needs an onsite sys admin/network admin, I'll volunteer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 14:42:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.zuhause.org (zuhause.org [205.215.217.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A205C37B422 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bruce@zuhause.org) Received: by mail.zuhause.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DE6DF7C64; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:42:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce Albrecht MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15060.53190.561343.339737@celery.zuhause.org> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:42:30 -0500 (CDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux and network cards X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was considering sending this to -advocacy or -hardware, but I think this is a better place. In the 4/9/01 issue of Infoworld (http://208.185.149.153/webx?13@137.mBrzaLPgcDU^0@.ee751c7), Nicholas Petreley writes about his problems with Linux and network cards. He could have save himself some exasperation if he knew the rule "hubs are always half-duplex, switches can be either", but that's not my real subject. I don't have any 3Com or Intel NICs, but Petreley claims that he was unable to use his 3C905B cards with his hubs, period, and was only able to use the Intel EEPro 100 NICs after running some diagnostic program to switch them to half-duplex. I know that with FreeBSD, I can configure the card to be either half-duplex, full-duplex or autosense, so one of the following is true: A) These cards are brain-dead, and FreeBSD can't configure them either. B) Linux is brain-dead and can't configure this with ifconfig or whatever their equivalent command. C) Nicholas Petreley doesn't know what he's doing, and should leave system administration to professionals. In the expanded online version, Petreley does talk about setting an option to turn off full-duplex on the cards when setting it up, so it could be either a Linux driver or NIC firmware problem instead of a ID10T problem. Has anyone seen this sort of problem on FreeBSD with either of these network cards? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 17:19:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from backup.enteract.com (backup.enteract.com [207.229.143.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BAB37B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3C0JQu60647; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:19:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:19:25 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: Bruce Albrecht Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unspecified OS... In-Reply-To: <15060.51781.307765.970025@celery.zuhause.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Bruce Albrecht wrote: :Bzdik BSD writes: : > : > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42912,00.html : :If the space station needs an onsite sys admin/network admin, I'll volunteer. : I'd even do NT work in space! -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 18: 4:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (h24-64-231-25.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.231.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2108E37B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 96EE6246; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:16:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:16:26 -0600 From: Chris Piazza To: David Goddard Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Tastes in beer (was: style(9) was: Intro speech) Message-ID: <20010410161626.A14226@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <20010408213406.A1488@schweikhardt.net> <20010408202637.C29284@peorth.iteration.net> <20010409192858.B1981@schweikhardt.net> <20010410112820.H64481@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3AD37803.E542DA6F@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i-jp2 In-Reply-To: <3AD37803.E542DA6F@acm.org>; from goddard@acm.org on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:15:47PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:15:47PM +0100, David Goddard wrote: > > > Brad Knowles wrote: > > > > At 11:28 AM +0930 4/10/01, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Hmm. You obviously need some education. There's a good chance I'll > > > be in Böblingen in the future, so I'll bring some real Australian > > > Beer. http://www.coopers.com.au/ > > > > Sigh.... These wannabees think that they can compete with the > > *inventors* of beer? ;-) > > What - the *Egyptians*? ;) > > [Or so I'm told] Beer or beer like drinks are actually extremely common in cultures around the world. It would be hard indeed to trace this back to the Egyptians or any other sole inventors. -Chris -Now with even more useless knowledge from intro anthropology courses- -- Chris Piazza (yawn...) Calgary, AB, Canada cpiazza@jaxon.net -or- cpiazza@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 18:32:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A9637B422 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010412013246.VWDD11255.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:32:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3AD50595.982AD63E@home.com> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:32:05 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Python IDE for FreeBSD, GO VOTE :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the tip! It looks like we've swung it in FreeBSD's favor. Rob. scanner@jurai.net wrote: > > www.wingide.com has a vote taking place on their front page for where to > port their IDE suite for Python development to next. Macintosh is number > one with 23 votes, FreeBSD is second with 15. I urge everyone who develops > python on freebsd and would like a nice GUI IDE to go cast youre vote for > freebsd :-) > > ============================================================================= > -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek > Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas > Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net > ============================================================================= > WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" > LINUX: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" > BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" > ============================================================================= > irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! > ICQ: 20016186 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 18:35:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A91D37B43F for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010412013542.VZJF11255.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:35:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3AD50638.AD1CF285@home.com> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:34:48 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Neill Robins Cc: Diego Rodrigo Neufert , Peter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? References: <0104110859530Q.17444@belzebu.magicwebdesign.com.br> <1340791114.20010411082609@nc.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I bought an Iwill DDR board with a 1.2Ghz Athlon. In a very unscientific test, I found that it encoded MP3's ten times faster than my 650Mhz P3 laptop using Gogo. Ripping and encoding CD's is now rate limited totally by the CD player :) Rob. Neill Robins wrote: > > Wednesday, April 11, 2001, 7:59:53 AM, Diego Rodrigo Neufert wrote: > DRN> I think that the best Athlon TBIRD mobo is Asus A7V... > DRN> Just dont know if it runs with FBSD, but with my RH7 it's ok... > > Yes, the A7V works with FreeBSD, and an 850TBIRD is *fast* > > As Brett mentioned, it doesn't support ECC memory (The KT133 chipset) > and comes with the Promise ATA-100 controller. > > As for what ftp.cdrom.com runs, all I could dig up was a Xeon/500 with > 4GB memory and 1/2 TB of RAID 5 storage. I used to have a link to what > the machine was, but I can't seem to find it. > > -- > Good Luck, > -Neill > freebsd@nc.rr.com > > DRN> On Tuesday 10 April 2001 19:57, you wrote: > >> I'm planning on upgrading my computer [at least the motherboard] > >> > >> My question is what have you guys found to be good motherboards? > >> Or which ones should I definitely not touch? > >> > >> I'm looking for one that can handle about an 700+ mhz processor > >> Currently I've been looking at AMD [Athlon and Thunderbird] as they > >> are much cheaper than Intel Pentium III's. > >> > >> So what are good mobos for that kinda processor power? [right now that is > >> all I care about, everything else depends on the price of the mobo etc etc, > >> but for now first thing is cpu speed].....Where is a good place to buy them > >> online [motherboard/cpu combo] -- I'm looking only to spend about 200 > >> [maybe $300 if it's really good] ....and of course I'm looking for one that > >> will let FreeBSD run on it with no major problems. [Want to build a good > >> desktop system [yes FBSD makes a better desktop than linux :) ] ] > >> > >> on a side now, what is ftp.cdrom.com/freebsd.org running just curious. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 18:53:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF4437B43E for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3C1rDP19694; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:53:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200104120153.f3C1rDP19694@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Diego Rodrigo Neufert Cc: Peter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Motherboards? In-Reply-To: Message from Diego Rodrigo Neufert of "Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:59:53 -0300." <0104110859530Q.17444@belzebu.magicwebdesign.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:53:13 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Diego Rodrigo Neufert writes: > I think that the best Athlon TBIRD mobo is Asus A7V... > Just dont know if it runs with FBSD, but with my RH7 it's ok... It runs perfectly fine under FreeBSD. But I had a bit of a time tweaking BIOS parameters to keep it running for more than 30 minutes into buildworld. Specifics in the archives of this list but in short reading the manual's explaination of each BIOS setting one's default included "PCI 2.2" but said nothing about that *in* the BIOS menus. Flipping that to its non-default value was the last thing I did to make this machine solid. Other thing that helped a lot was to set "Non-PNP O/S" in the BIOS. This got my I/O mapped into sane places. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 19:21:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9040737B424 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3C2LYP19789; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:21:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200104120221.f3C2LYP19789@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Bruce Albrecht Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Linux and network cards In-reply-to: Message from Bruce Albrecht of "Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:42:30 CDT." <15060.53190.561343.339737@celery.zuhause.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:21:34 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bruce Albrecht writes: > I was considering sending this to -advocacy or -hardware, but I think > this is a better place. In the 4/9/01 issue of Infoworld > (http://208.185.149.153/webx?13@137.mBrzaLPgcDU^0@.ee751c7), Nicholas > Petreley writes about his problems with Linux and network cards. He > could have save himself some exasperation if he knew the rule "hubs > are always half-duplex, switches can be either", but that's not my Seemed to use the term "hub" interchangably with "switch". > real subject. I don't have any 3Com or Intel NICs, but Petreley > claims that he was unable to use his 3C905B cards with his hubs, > period, and was only able to use the Intel EEPro 100 NICs after > running some diagnostic program to switch them to half-duplex. I too read that today. Then finally logged on to their site in order to post a comment. Was stunned by his admission that Reiserfs was still not reliable, yet he uses it on everything. Presumably on the production Linux machine he is having so much trouble with? Clearly more interesting in tweaking and playing than making the machine do productive work. Interesting that he happily downloaded somebody's utility and inserted it in his system config to smack a NIC into half duplex. Apparently something the Linux driver didn't have a syscall for, or something the Linux ifconfig didn't support. > I know that with FreeBSD, I can configure the card to be either > half-duplex, full-duplex or autosense, so one of the following is > true: > > A) These cards are brain-dead, and FreeBSD can't configure them either. I am not a kernel programmer but way back in 1996 my version 0.0 21040 started having problems with FreeBSD when autosensing was being added to the de driver. So that's the last time I spent much time really reading that code. My impression was the difficulty was in figuring out *how* to set the duplex mode on the media interface on cards of different manufacture. The card doesn't set the mode, the driver has to tell it what to do. > B) Linux is brain-dead and can't configure this with ifconfig or > whatever their equivalent command. That seems to be half of it. This article triggered waves of memories of trying to use Linux in 1995. Trial and error and compromise for the right set of kernel patches. > C) Nicholas Petreley doesn't know what he's doing, and should leave > system administration to professionals. And apparently the other half. Based on Petreley's words one would think a hub provides a "collision line" to the NIC so it knows to backoff and retry in half duplex mode. > In the expanded online version, Petreley does talk about setting an > option to turn off full-duplex on the cards when setting it up, so it It was a utility he downloaded from somewhere. "Linux support is fantastic!" is what I read between the lines. What I was thinking was, "Yeah, you could download a hotfix from Microsoft too, once you know what the problem is." > could be either a Linux driver or NIC firmware problem instead of a > ID10T problem. Has anyone seen this sort of problem on FreeBSD with > either of these network cards? Of all the NICs you can buy the Intel '55[789] are probably the best supported by FreeBSD as that's what ftp.cdrom.com used for its main link for quite some time. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 21:13:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from backup.enteract.com (backup.enteract.com [207.229.143.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC7837B621 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3C4DTu03186; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:13:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:13:29 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: David Kelly Cc: Bruce Albrecht , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux and network cards In-Reply-To: <200104120221.f3C2LYP19789@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, David Kelly wrote: :Interesting that he happily downloaded somebody's utility and inserted :it in his system config to smack a NIC into half duplex. Apparently :something the Linux driver didn't have a syscall for, or something the :Linux ifconfig didn't support. I'm pretty sure there are some FreeBSD drivers that don't suport this, either. That may have changed, though. :I am not a kernel programmer but way back in 1996 my version 0.0 21040 :started having problems with FreeBSD when autosensing was being added to :the de driver. So that's the last time I spent much time really reading :that code. My impression was the difficulty was in figuring out *how* to :set the duplex mode on the media interface on cards of different :manufacture. The card doesn't set the mode, the driver has to tell it :what to do. Auto-sensing is hard, too. There's lots of hardware that doesn't do the right thing. :> B) Linux is brain-dead and can't configure this with ifconfig or :> whatever their equivalent command. : :That seems to be half of it. This article triggered waves of memories of :trying to use Linux in 1995. Trial and error and compromise for the :right set of kernel patches. Yeah. The Feng-Shui of Linux config-management is still a pain. David -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 22:47:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113F237B50F for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from darkside (freddie.boonie.org [209.52.175.37]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01494 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:47:33 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:48:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Tastes in beer (was: style(9) was: Intro speech) Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3AD4DF2F.6547.A199A71@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010410161626.A14226@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <3AD37803.E542DA6F@acm.org>; from goddard@acm.org on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:15:47PM +0100 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Apr 2001, at 16:16, Chris Piazza wrote: > On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:15:47PM +0100, David Goddard wrote: > > Brad Knowles wrote: > > > At 11:28 AM +0930 4/10/01, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Hmm. You obviously need some education. There's a good chance > > > > I'll be in Böblingen in the future, so I'll bring some real > > > > Australian Beer. http://www.coopers.com.au/ > > > Sigh.... These wannabees think that they can compete with > > > the > > > *inventors* of beer? ;-) > > What - the *Egyptians*? ;) > > [Or so I'm told] > Beer or beer like drinks are actually extremely common in cultures > around the world. It would be hard indeed to trace this back to the > Egyptians or any other sole inventors. Nope, that would be the Sumerians. :) http://www.spatenusa.com/germanbeerhistory.html [Sent this off-list last time... gotta remember to check the TO: field before sending.] Cheers, Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 11 23:41:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DED937B423 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03033; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:41:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010412003921.04526230@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:41:28 -0600 To: Bruce Albrecht , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux and network cards In-Reply-To: <15060.53190.561343.339737@celery.zuhause.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:42 PM 4/11/2001, Bruce Albrecht wrote: >I know that with FreeBSD, I can configure the card to be either >half-duplex, full-duplex or autosense, so one of the following is >true: > >A) These cards are brain-dead, and FreeBSD can't configure them either. >B) Linux is brain-dead and can't configure this with ifconfig or > whatever their equivalent command. >C) Nicholas Petreley doesn't know what he's doing, and should leave > system administration to professionals. (B) and (C). FreeBSD has no problem with these cards. You might want to inform Nick about this.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 2:42:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1361E37B43F for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:42:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3C9gpe01529 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:42:52 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104120942.f3C9gpe01529@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 05:42:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: comp.risks mentions BSD and Mac OS X Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This just arrived via the moderated newsgroup comp.risks (Message-ID: ): Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:17:56 -0500 From: "Craig S. Cottingham" Subject: Re: Future Mac Viruses? (PC Rescue, RISKS-21.32) > Mac users have been crowing for some time that their system is less prone to > viruses than the horrible alternative. Could this be about to change? First off, any person who claims that Mac OS is less *susceptible* to viruses than the "horrible alternative" is mistaken. The greater part of Mac OS's relative dearth of viruses is due to "security through obscurity" -- in this case, a much smaller developer base. All the tools you need to write code for Mac OS, virulent or not, have been freely available for download from Apple's web site for more than two years. > "The box contains three installation CDs -- Mac OS X, Mac OS 9.1 and a CD > full of developer tools, including the Cocoa programming environment, which > is reportedly simple enough for school kids to use." Secondly, Linux has included, from day one, developer tools simple enough for school kids to use, as evidenced by the number of open source projects started by students. (The most notable example that comes to mind is Napster; I believe its author was a high school student when he created it.) Following that logic, there should be a preponderance of viruses for Linux. Instead, there are, to my knowledge, none. (Worms which exploit security holes in daemons are a horse -- a Trojan horse? -- of a different color.) The security model built into Linux and other Unix-like operating systems -- of which BSD, on which Mac OS X is built, is one -- contrasts sharply with the security model, such as it is, built into the variants of Windows. So right from the start, Mac OS X is starting from ground more solid than either its predecessor or that "horrible alternative." What remains to be seen is how well Apple has balanced the Unix-like security model with the expectations of a user base that is used to having free run of the machine. I haven't installed Mac OS X on any of my machines yet, but it appears from the posts to one OS X mailing list that the security model is obvious for tasks which require superuser rights. Craig S. Cottingham http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xA2FFBE41> -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 7:24:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71EE37B422 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA99436; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:24:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bruce Albrecht Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux and network cards References: <15060.53190.561343.339737@celery.zuhause.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Apr 2001 16:24:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <15060.53190.561343.339737@celery.zuhause.org> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bruce Albrecht writes: > A) These cards are brain-dead, and FreeBSD can't configure them either. > B) Linux is brain-dead and can't configure this with ifconfig or > whatever their equivalent command. > C) Nicholas Petreley doesn't know what he's doing, and should leave > system administration to professionals. Probably a combination of B and C. FreeBSD has no trouble auto- configuring these cards. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 8:20:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bubble.via-net-works.ie (bubble.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FFE37B43F for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from strawberry.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.34.228] helo=cooperationireland.org) by bubble.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #2) id 14nitA-0007de-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:20:04 +0000 Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3CFK3k61769 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:20:04 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010412162005.008c1d70@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:20:05 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Mike Doyle Subject: Question regarding compilers etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was doing a little reading of the on-line documentation for gcc, and I noticed that the i386 family of chips that it can optimise for includes i386, i486, pentium and pentium pro. It has no mention of PII or PIII specific optimisations. Neither does it mention any of the Cyrix or AMD class processors. While code targetted at a pentium or pentium pro will run on these processors would there by anything gained by optimising code for the later processors? Would such optimisation, if used, to compile a custom kernel, or even custom-compile a whole "buildworld" deliver any significant performance gains? Just wondering... Mike <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 9:45:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C693A37B443 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bartequi@neomedia.it) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3CGjYt11881; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:45:34 +0200 (CEST) To: Leonard Zettel Message-ID: <987093933.3ad5dbadd05de@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:45:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.163.126 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Redirected to chat ] > The Complete Free BSD (which is why I *bought* the CD-ROM) $40 (approx) > Unix Power Tools $63.55 > Using Samba Special Edition $42.39 > The Unix System Admin Handbook (coming) $74.00 > Online Handbook 0.00 ------ > Total so far $219.94 What one learns from good Unix/CS books is (usually) just priceless. By the way, there are other books out there selling at $$. They explain "concepts" in the following didactically "effective" & "advanced" fashion: 1) go to the brain-damaged Menu Foo; 2) click on the brain-dead item Bar; 3) next, check the brain-dead box Baz; [4) reboot the system for the changes to take effect.] N.B. in this kind of ahem "Learning Environment": *) you are not supposed to ask yourself questions; **) you are not (usually) supposed to make use of your brain^W^W^W^W^W understand the whys and wherefores. You normally have to point-and-click. And you are done. In all senses, actually... -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 10:18:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6066E37B443 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:18:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3CHNxr52645; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:23:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.7 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:23:59 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Jason Nugent Subject: Re: a word of appreciation Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to freebsd-chat from freebsd-stable ] On 12-Apr-2001 Jason Nugent wrote: > Folks, > > I'm not sure how much you get of this, but I just wanted to say thanks to > all of you working on the freebsd project. You do fine work. I'm not > sure how often you get to hear that, so I'm going to say it now. I'd like to second this. I've been using FreeBSD for close to five years now. Throughout that time, the FreeBSD development and core teams have exhibited only the highest level of professionalism and sound judgement re: the future direction of FreeBSD development. You don't see this kind of commitment to quality from many commercial developers, making the contributions of the FreeBSD team to this free, open-source OS all the more remarkable. It gives me a feeling of the utmost confidence in those involved in the continuing evolution of this "insanely great" operating system. How many can say that about *their* OS? Not to mention the fantastic support that is available through the mailing lists. FreeBSD folks, we salute you! -- Conrad Sabatier conrads@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 12:34:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (shortbus.jaded.net [216.94.132.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC7B37B424 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:34:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3CJYkH02500 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:34:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:34:46 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Traceroutes to UK Message-ID: <20010412153446.A2391@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may be a blatent abuse of the mailing list, but I am doing research into a colocate off in good ol' UK that will serve my companies Europe presence. The only thing (and probably the single most important thing) left to examine is how the routes look to the facilities from random points around the globe. Could I ask anyone that has a spare moment to traceroute to the following IPs ... 212.134.174.101 208.184.62.65 ... and mail me the results along with where you are located geographically (a simple country will do :) Thanks in Advance! -Dan -- All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wonder are lost; The old that is strong does not whither, Deep roots are not reached by frost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 17:46:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4099237B496 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3D0k1P92633; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:46:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200104130046.f3D0k1P92633@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Linux and network cards In-reply-to: Message from David Scheidt of "Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:13:29 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:46:01 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, David Kelly wrote: > > :Interesting that he happily downloaded somebody's utility and inserted > :it in his system config to smack a NIC into half duplex. Apparently > :something the Linux driver didn't have a syscall for, or something the > :Linux ifconfig didn't support. > > I'm pretty sure there are some FreeBSD drivers that don't suport this, either. > That may have changed, though. Certainly not for the Intel and 3Com cards under discussion. > :I am not a kernel programmer but way back in 1996 my version 0.0 21040 > :started having problems with FreeBSD when autosensing was being added to > :the de driver. So that's the last time I spent much time really reading > :that code. My impression was the difficulty was in figuring out *how* to > :set the duplex mode on the media interface on cards of different > :manufacture. The card doesn't set the mode, the driver has to tell it > :what to do. > > Auto-sensing is hard, too. There's lots of hardware that doesn't do the > right thing. The thing in my case was that no-auto was not working as I had a card where the interface could not be selected by software, and otherwise it was only a 21040, locked at 10M. But this was over 5 years ago. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 22:20:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2786437B50B for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:20:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.05) id AE4482F70354; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:27:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:26:04 -0700 From: Chip Wiegand To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-Id: <20010412222604.5bb984ab.chip@wiegand.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.62 (GTK+ 1.2.8; i386--freebsd4.2) Organization: wiegand.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. This is just a observation, based on the header that shows the mua the message was sent from. In the 7 lists I read, all bsd or *nix related, I found aproximately 1/3 of the messages come from windoze based pc's. Some messages don't show the mailer information, some show the name but not the OS, so I ignored those. I just find it interesting to see such a large percentage coming from non-*nix machines in newsgroups about *nix OS's. I had some free time finally, and used it counting header info. Oh boy. :-) About 335 messages out of around 1000 were from windoze mailers. Anyway, just an observation, something to chat about, Regards, -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 23: 1: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A1C37B446 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3D60se06368; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:00:55 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104130600.f3D60se06368@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Chip Wiegand Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:00:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20010412222604.5bb984ab.chip@wiegand.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Apr 2001, at 22:26, Chip Wiegand wrote: > I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large > number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. If you check, all of my messages come from my NT Workstation. All my FreeBSD boxes are servers. Now what about browsers: I don't have the FreeBSD Diary stats available, but for FreshPorts, I can give you a little bit of info. Unfortunately, I've been grouping Agents, which I've just turned off as I found it. For April to date (all figures rounded): 23% Mozilla/4.0 21% Mozilla/4.7 7% Mozilla/3.01 (compatible;) 6% Mozilla/3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) 5% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0) 4% Wget/1.5.3 4% libwww-perl/5.48 3% Meerkat-Collector/1.2 3% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) Everything else is below 2%. Ask me again in a month and I'll give ungrouped figures for Mozilla. Looking at the FreeBSDZine for March, we see that Windows takes the top 6 spots for a combined total of 33.6%. Over the top 15 spots, Windows takes nearly 40%. The total for all non-windows in the top 15 is 7.71%. Mind you, that leaves about 52% unaccounted for, each category of which will be < 1% each. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 23: 8:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAC037B423 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15721; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:08:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:07:58 -0600 To: Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <20010412222604.5bb984ab.chip@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 PM 4/12/2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: >I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large >number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. This is >just a observation, based on the header that shows the mua the message >was sent from. It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a RELIABLE operating system! --Brett Glass, who's writing this on Eudora on a Windows box To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 12 23:40:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED19837B446 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14nxFa-0006Wh-00; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:40:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:40:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <200104130600.f3D60se06368@ns1.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > On 12 Apr 2001, at 22:26, Chip Wiegand wrote: > > > I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large > > number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. Here are some (one month) webserver stats from a few months ago at BSD Today: 1 29781 5.80% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) 2 28651 5.58% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0) 3 22547 4.39% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) 4 21861 4.26% Wget/1.5.3 5 21108 4.11% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) 6 13062 2.54% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0) 7 11521 2.24% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; Win 9x 4.90) 8 10019 1.95% PHP/4.0.3pl1 9 7977 1.55% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) 10 7545 1.47% Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) Looking closer, I see that 2324 agents have Linux or BSD in them. here is teh top ten opf these[1]: 95 Mozilla/4.7 [en] (X11; I; NetBSD 1.5K i386; Nav) 95 Mozilla/4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) 96 Mozilla/4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-3 i686; Nav) 96 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001130 96 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001122 96 puf/0.9beta9 (Linux 2.2.17-21mdk; i686) 97 Mozilla/4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE i386) 97 Opera/4.0 (Linux; US) [en] 98 Mozilla/4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386; Nav) 990 Mozilla/4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i686) Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ 1) I can't type too well. I broke my thumb a few weeks ago playing basketball; and I got a cast covering from the middle of my forearm to my knuckles this Tuesday. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 6:11:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E924637B43E for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3DDApA90614; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:10:51 GMT Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:10:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brett Glass Cc: Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as > your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a > RELIABLE operating system! Hey! Wait a minute! Email *is* mission-critical. When was the last time you went without email for a few days? :-) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 6:24:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A5937B505 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:24:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3DDOHq27520; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:24:17 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:24:09 +0200 To: Kris Kirby , Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:10 PM +0000 4/13/01, Kris Kirby wrote: > Hey! Wait a minute! Email *is* mission-critical. When was the last time > you went without email for a few days? :-) Yup, e-mail is mission critical. Indeed, I submit that it is the only mission-critical application. However, this simply requires that we have reliable servers handling our e-mail -- once we get down to the client level, it's up to the user to deal with the reliability issues, because there's just not much we can do on the server to fix problems with the client. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 6:45: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA7337B43F for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.05) id A48A1FE602CE; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:52:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:50:44 -0700 From: Chip Wiegand To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-Id: <20010413065044.3824814c.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> References: <20010412222604.5bb984ab.chip@wiegand.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.62 (GTK+ 1.2.8; i386--freebsd4.2) Organization: wiegand.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So you believe windoze to be more reliable than BSD? You would rather put your mission-critical data on a windoze box (which is generally accepted by the industry as less reliable than a *nix box)? Maybe eudora is a better, in some ways, mua than most of the *nix mua's, but that isn't the OS. I use FreeBSD everyday on my workstation and on several other machines at home, and they have never crashed or had any of the problems the windoze machines seem to be prone to. You make an intersting statement. -- Chip On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:07:58 -0600 Brett Glass surely must have wrote something like: > At 11:26 PM 4/12/2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: > > >I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large > >number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. This is > >just a observation, based on the header that shows the mua the message > >was sent from. > > It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as > your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a > RELIABLE operating system! > > --Brett Glass, who's writing this on Eudora on a Windows box To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 7:22:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2FCD37B50F for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2001 14:22:49 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:25:11 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the best office product out there ]. On 04/12/2001 11:26:04 PM, Chip Wiegand is quoted as saying: . . . .|I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large . . . .|number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. This is . . . .|just a observation, based on the header that shows the mua the message . . . .|was sent from. In the 7 lists I read, all bsd or *nix related, I found . . . .|aproximately 1/3 of the messages come from windoze based pc's. Some . . . .|messages don't show the mailer information, some show the name but not . . . .|the OS, so I ignored those. I just find it interesting to see such a . . . .|large percentage coming from non-*nix machines in newsgroups about *nix . . . .|OS's. . . . .|I had some free time finally, and used it counting header info. Oh boy. . . . .|:-) About 335 messages out of around 1000 were from windoze mailers. . . . .| . . . .|Anyway, just an observation, something to chat about, . . . .|Regards, . . . .| . . . .|-- . . . .|Chip Wiegand . . . .|Alternative Operating Systems . . . .|www.wiegand.org . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 7:36: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE7137B422 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3DEa3e07944 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:36:04 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:35:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: dan@langille.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 2001, at 8:25, Peter wrote: > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the > best office product out there ]. [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 7:46:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.registeredsite.com (mail4.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6B137B43F for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail4.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3DEkc103062 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:46:38 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A1491A8000B6; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:46:33 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413104127.037fc900@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:46:28 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think this statement is as inflammatory as it may have been years ago. Microsoft controls the desktop these days, both on the OS and the applications. And while I applaud Corel for going cross-platform, even we WordPerfect users better know how to convert documents to/from Word format to get any business transactions done. --Chip Morton At 10:35 AM 4/13/2001, you wrote: >On 13 Apr 2001, at 8:25, Peter wrote: > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the > > best office product out there ]. > >[What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > >Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > >-- >Dan Langille >pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php >got any work? I'm looking for some. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 7:46:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.registeredsite.com (mail5.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBA037B424 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail5.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3DEki511663 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:46:44 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A14A1A8000B6; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:46:34 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413104204.037a7f00@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:42:44 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Sorry for not sending this to the entire list before, Chip W. ] I think the man (Brett Glass) was making a joke. I think he was. :-/ Anyway, I've been using Eudora on Windows for years now, before I had started experimenting with FreeBSD. I know it well, and for the most part I like it. I'm not very tempted to move my e-mail client unless Eudora for FreeBSD emerges. ;-) And for tasks like e-mail, I find the Eudora interface on the Windows GUI easy to use. (Again, it's familiar to me.) Does my Windows stability match FreeBSD's on the same system? No, not close. But for reading e-mail, it's good enough. --Chip Morton At 09:50 AM 4/13/2001, you wrote: >So you believe windoze to be more reliable than BSD? You would rather >put your mission-critical data on a windoze box (which is generally >accepted by the industry as less reliable than a *nix box)? Maybe eudora >is a better, in some ways, mua than most of the *nix mua's, but that >isn't the OS. I use FreeBSD everyday on my workstation and on several >other machines at home, and they have never crashed or had any of the >problems the windoze machines seem to be prone to. >You make an intersting statement. > >-- >Chip > >On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:07:58 -0600 >Brett Glass surely must have wrote something like: > > > At 11:26 PM 4/12/2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: > > > > >I recently noticed, while reading through these lists, that a large > > >number of messages posted are coming from windoze computers. This is > > >just a observation, based on the header that shows the mua the >message > > >was sent from. > > > > It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as > > your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a > > RELIABLE operating system! > > > > --Brett Glass, who's writing this on Eudora on a Windows box > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 7:59:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCBA37B506 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3DExqq57045 ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:59:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA01444 ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:59:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:59:52 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010413165952.K82834@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:35:56AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the > > best office product out there ]. > > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > > Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. To all ye office users: I have some questions about MS Word. I never use it myself, but I know people who do, and it seems to me that they have a hard time doing some very basic things which TeX/LaTeX have done since the 1980s. Or maybe Word does do all this but users don't know it? (1) Does it do automatic section numbering / equation numbering / figure numbering, etc? (2) Can you attach labels to the section/equation/etc so that you can refer to these using the label, and in the final printed document the correct reference number is automatically used? (For example, if I refer to figure 8 and I insert another figure earlier, the reference will automatically change to figure 9.) (3) Can you have an "unbreakable space"? For instance, in referring to Mr. Bush, you don't want the line to be broken like this: Mr. Bush -- so you put an unbreakable space there rather than a normal space. (4) Does it treat section headings intelligently at page breaks? I have seen word documents where the section heading was at the bottom of one page and the section started at the top of the next page. These are the things I'm doubtful about. There are plenty of things I'm not doubtful about: Word doesn't do them, at least not in any word document I've seen. (1) Math: Word's support for equations is rudimentary at best. (2) Ligatures: Traditionally, certain letter combinations (fi, fl, ff, ffi, ffl) are printed as single units. TeX does this when using its native font family (computer modern) and other fonts which support it (eg most postscript fonts support the fl and fi ligatures). (3) Paragraph-level formatting: TeX formats text a paragraph at a time, to avoid ugly effects like "ladders" that could happen when you do things a line at a time. Adobe introduced that in some of their DTP software much later. Word doesn't do it. (4) Spacing after full stops: in English language text, traditionally one leaves a bit of extra space after a full stop. TeX does this, using some simple rules to recognise a full stop. On the rare occasions it gets this wrong, you can overrule it. End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word documents are almost always hideous. You can argue that Word is not meant to be publication-quality stuff, but unfortunately that's what many people do use it for. Besides, I prefer even an ordinary letter to be nicely typeset, and LaTeX lets me do that without compromising on ease of use. (For those who must have their point&click, there's LyX.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 8: 5:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E33937B422 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott.mitchell@mail.com) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.152.18]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010413150509.KCKN272.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:05:09 +0100 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03604; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:05:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20010413160506.13214@localhost> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:05:06 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists References: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org>; from Dan Langille on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:35:56AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:35:56AM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > On 13 Apr 2001, at 8:25, Peter wrote: > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the > > best office product out there ]. > > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > > Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. Sad but true. I've even started to like (FSVO 'like') using Outlook -- if *everyone* in an office uses it to organise their lives, it's actually quite useful. Especially now that they're getting rid of that darn paperclip :-) You probably need a M$ desktop to view it, but check out http://www.officeclippy.com/ It brightened my Thursday morning. Sheesh, did I really just say that I liked Outlook? Time to go hack some driver code on a real OS, I think... Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 8:11: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B92937B440 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 36115 invoked by uid 100); 13 Apr 2001 15:10:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15063.5887.654442.390136@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:10:55 -0500 To: Technical Information , fbsdq@yahoo.com Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413104127.037fc900@mail.threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413104127.037fc900@mail.threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information types: > I don't think this statement is as inflammatory as it may have been years > ago. Microsoft controls the desktop these days, both on the OS and the > applications. And while I applaud Corel for going cross-platform, even we > WordPerfect users better know how to convert documents to/from Word format > to get any business transactions done. I was going to ask on what basis the claim was made. If it's interoperability with most other people, that's certainly true. Of course, on that basis, Windows is just about the best OS out there. Personally, for interoperability, I generate PDF from Applix Office. I really can't give MS Office a fair trial, because it runs on MS-Windows, meaning it has about the worst UI I know of. It's plagued with problems like inadequate control of layering, requiring useless activity, and a collection of hard-to-hit gadgets for most window operations. The latter probably has something to do with whatever it is that seems to turn small window motions into a maximize operation, which is really obnoxious. After my recent bout with having to use MS-Windows, I now understand why scroll wheels on mice are so popular - the MS-Windows scroll bars are a PITA to use. That aside, MS-Word is a loser. While it may win the checklist comparison, it lacks the ability to create real templates, as you couldn't delete the built-in character and paragraph styles when I used it. It also likes to save old text, possibly even from other documents, resulting in both bloated files and a security problem. Since word processing is the most important office activity, the word processor is the most important part of an office suite. I don't really see what MS-Office could offer to overcome these problems in the word processing part of the suite. At 10:35 AM 4/13/2001, you wrote: > >On 13 Apr 2001, at 8:25, Peter wrote: > > > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the > > > best office product out there ]. > > > >[What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > > > >Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > > > >-- > >Dan Langille > >pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php > >got any work? I'm looking for some. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 8:21:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECE237B496 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@dmlb.org) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010413152112.QENK285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:21:12 +0100 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14o5Nn-000HAR-00; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:21:11 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010413165952.K82834@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:21:11 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dan Langille Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Apr-01 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, >> > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just about the >> > best office product out there ]. >> >> [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] >> >> Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > Agree, but the stability/capability of the individual tools is uneven. Word is not as capable as TeX (see answer below) but it is easier to use for short documents. Word is also very buggy on documents with large numbers of embedded objects (e.g. Visio). Power point is great, Excel is great. Project is pants. We have some pet theories at work, as to why Excel and Power Point as so much more stable than Word. We think that in Excel/Power Point a cell or slide is treated as an object and the overall programme can handle many instances pretty well. However, Word is so hacked up internally (compared with TeX, it certainly doesn't treat things as a box with stuff in) that the interactions just confuse the hell out of it. > To all ye office users: > I have some questions about MS Word. I never use it myself, but I > know people who do, and it seems to me that they have a hard time > doing some very basic things which TeX/LaTeX have done since the > 1980s. Or maybe Word does do all this but users don't know it? > (1) Does it do automatic section numbering / equation numbering / > figure numbering, etc? Yes. > (2) Can you attach labels to the section/equation/etc so that you can > refer to these using the label, and in the final printed document the > correct reference number is automatically used? (For example, if > I refer to figure 8 and I insert another figure earlier, the > reference will automatically change to figure 9.) Yes, however the support is not clean. Using the special cases of the predefined types is much easier than adding your own "bookmarks". > (3) Can you have an "unbreakable space"? For instance, in referring > to Mr. Bush, you don't want the line to be broken like this: Mr. > Bush -- so you put an unbreakable space there rather than a normal > space. Yes. > (4) Does it treat section headings intelligently at page breaks? I > have seen word documents where the section heading was at the bottom > of one page and the section started at the top of the next page. Yes, it can. But like Tex/LaTeX it depends on how well the style is set up. If the style definition is good (i.e. right leading/trailing vertical space) then Word will get it right most of the time. You can still confuse it with footnote text and it doesn't do a godd job of recognising that not breaking the page will result in one line of text. However most Word styles are not well thought out and get this wrong so most Word documents look poor. > These are the things I'm doubtful about. There are plenty of things > I'm not doubtful about: Word doesn't do them, at least not in any > word document I've seen. > > (1) Math: Word's support for equations is rudimentary at best. Use the poor built in TeX like in-line code, or fight with the really strange Microsoft Equation Editor. Results look like TeX. > (2) Ligatures: Traditionally, certain letter combinations > (fi, fl, ff, ffi, ffl) are printed as single units. TeX does this > when using its native font family (computer modern) and other > fonts which support it (eg most postscript fonts support the fl > and fi ligatures). True, nil-ligature support, very poor kerning. > (3) Paragraph-level formatting: TeX formats text a paragraph at a > time, to avoid ugly effects like "ladders" that could happen when > you do things a line at a time. Adobe introduced that in some of > their DTP software much later. Word doesn't do it. True. Text from TeX is much nicer. Word is crap at justifying. > (4) Spacing after full stops: in English language text, traditionally > one leaves a bit of extra space after a full stop. TeX does this, > using some simple rules to recognise a full stop. On the rare > occasions it gets this wrong, you can overrule it. Programmble via language selections. > End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: > you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word documents are > almost always hideous. You can argue that Word is not meant to be > publication-quality stuff, but unfortunately that's what many people > do use it for. Besides, I prefer even an ordinary letter to be nicely > typeset, and LaTeX lets me do that without compromising on ease of > use. (For those who must have their point&click, there's LyX.) Unfortunately, the rest of the business world doesn't agree :-(. I find Word acceptable for work where documents are rarely more than 50 pages. If I had to do soemthing like a PhD thesis in Word, I wouldn't bother writing it up. > R > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 8:57:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA6937B446 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:57:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28437; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:58:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma028404; Fri, 13 Apr 01 11:57:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:57:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dan Langille , Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <20010413165952.K82834@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just out of curiousity, does anyone here use groff? I've been using it here at work and at home to come up with some fairly professional-looking documents. Now if I can only find a macro package that does letters... Off topic side note: You know you've been using emacs too much when you bring up [Applix Word|Star Office|MS-Word] and instinctively use ctrl-e and ctrl-a which, depending on the application you're in, does not have the desired effect. ;) On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: > you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word documents are > almost always hideous. - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE61yIAtZTBgtmnGNERAldUAKCvB5v/pX1fQL+33+qx946NaOaRmgCfWRYO SwIoVznrMDp0DU5yYS5NKNY= =AnV+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 9: 5: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F382237B505 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2001 16:05:02 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:07:24 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org . . . .|Off topic side note: You know you've been using emacs too much when you . . . .|bring up [Applix Word|Star Office|MS-Word] and instinctively use ctrl-e . . . .|and ctrl-a which, depending on the application you're in, does not have . . . .|the desired effect. ;) I've been using dos for about 6 years now, it's weird that whenever I go into it i always type in 'ls' / 'clear' / 'rm' etc, even though I've been using Unix for only about a year now. And now I'm always hitting the damn escape key,in both dos and word [I use vi, and ksh with vi==EDITOR] -- the MCSE always gets a kick outta me always hitting the 'esc' key, until I showed him what it does and how much better it is ksh command line then the dos arrow keys, and how much faster it is in vi etc. On 04/13/2001 9:57:47 AM, Chris Fuhrman is quoted as saying: btw: my MUA is windows based but my smtp server [yahoo.com] is FreeBSD :) . . . .|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- . . . .|Hash: SHA1 . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|Just out of curiousity, does anyone here use groff? I've been using it . . . .|here at work and at home to come up with some fairly professional-looking . . . .|documents. . . . .| . . . .|Now if I can only find a macro package that does letters... . . . .| . . . .|Off topic side note: You know you've been using emacs too much when you . . . .|bring up [Applix Word|Star Office|MS-Word] and instinctively use ctrl-e . . . .|and ctrl-a which, depending on the application you're in, does not have . . . .|the desired effect. ;) . . . .| . . . .|On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: . . . .| . . . .|> End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: . . . .|> you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word documents are . . . .|> almost always hideous. . . . .| . . . .|- -- . . . .|Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications . . . .|cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer . . . .|(W) 614-442-1215 x271 | . . . .|(F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request . . . .|-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- . . . .|Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) . . . .|Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net . . . .| . . . .|iD8DBQE61yIAtZTBgtmnGNERAldUAKCvB5v/pX1fQL+33+qx946NaOaRmgCf WRYO . . . .|SwIoVznrMDp0DU5yYS5NKNY= . . . .|=AnV+ . . . .|-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 9:51:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0920737B505 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from darkside (freddie.boonie.org [209.52.175.37]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28350 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:51:34 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:52:34 -0700 Subject: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3AD6CC62.15731.37C4C0E@localhost> In-reply-to: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 2001, at 10:35, Dan Langille wrote: > On 13 Apr 2001, at 8:25, Peter wrote: > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just > > about the best office product out there ]. > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. And here I thought *nix users liked to have full control over their apps. Tsk tsk tsk, getting a paper click to do their work for them. :) Nothing beats Reveal Codes in WordPerfect to get a document looking *exactly* the way you want it to... and knowing why it looks the way it does when something goes wrong. :) IMO, the only "wordprocessor" Microsoft ever got to work correctly, and was worth buying, was Works 3.0. None of their offive producs since can compare to its simplicity, flexibility, and power. :) As for MUAs, so long as the mail travels reliably between servers, and the servers are solid enough to service all the clients, then it doesn't really matter what they are running on the client end. I'm writing this in Pegasus Mail since that's the proggie I've used for the past 5 years, before I found FreeBSD. Someday, I might move to a FreeBSD desktop, but for now I'm content with Win98SE on the laptop and FreeBSD in the server room. Cheers, Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 9:52:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9430937B616 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 8120 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Apr 2001 16:52:36 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Freddie Cash Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <3AD6CC62.15731.37C4C0E@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They're killing off the paperclip, those bastards. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Freddie Cash wrote: > On 13 Apr 2001, at 10:35, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 13 Apr 2001, at 8:25, Peter wrote: > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just > > > about the best office product out there ]. > > > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > > Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > > And here I thought *nix users liked to have full control over their > apps. Tsk tsk tsk, getting a paper click to do their work for them. > :) Nothing beats Reveal Codes in WordPerfect to get a document > looking *exactly* the way you want it to... and knowing why it looks > the way it does when something goes wrong. :) > > IMO, the only "wordprocessor" Microsoft ever got to work correctly, > and was worth buying, was Works 3.0. None of their offive producs > since can compare to its simplicity, flexibility, and power. :) > > As for MUAs, so long as the mail travels reliably between servers, > and the servers are solid enough to service all the clients, then it > doesn't really matter what they are running on the client end. I'm > writing this in Pegasus Mail since that's the proggie I've used for > the past 5 years, before I found FreeBSD. Someday, I might move to a > FreeBSD desktop, but for now I'm content with Win98SE on the laptop > and FreeBSD in the server room. > > Cheers, > Freddie > fcash@bigfoot.com > > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your > ego at the door. > - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 9:59:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531D337B50B for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from darkside (freddie.boonie.org [209.52.175.37]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29207 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:59:37 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:00:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3AD6CE45.5872.383AAA1@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010413165952.K82834@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:35:56AM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 2001, at 16:59, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just > > > about the best office product out there ]. > > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > > Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > To all ye office users: > I have some questions about MS Word. I never use it myself, but I > know people who do, and it seems to me that they have a hard time > doing some very basic things which TeX/LaTeX have done since the > 1980s. Or maybe Word does do all this but users don't know it? [snip] WordPerfect 7+ does this. Just finished a couple of papers for school that used all but the label feature. The nice thing is that even when it does something automatically, you can go into Reveal Codes to see what it did, and customise it to the way you work. > These are the things I'm doubtful about. There are plenty of things > I'm not doubtful about: Word doesn't do them, at least not in any word > document I've seen. > (1) Math: Word's support for equations is rudimentary at best. Word *really* lacks in this area. WordPerfect is great for this. Did all my Stats notes in WP8, and have nice equations, while the guy next to me tried using Word 97, and gave up after the first month. > (3) Paragraph-level formatting: TeX formats text a paragraph at a > time, to avoid ugly effects like "ladders" that could happen when > you do things a line at a time. Adobe introduced that in some of > their DTP software much later. Word doesn't do it. You *can* do this in word, but there's no indication of where the formatting starts and stops. WordPerfect does this beautifully, though. And you can copy word/line/paragraph/page/document level formatting between areas. > (4) Spacing after full stops: in English language text, traditionally > one leaves a bit of extra space after a full stop. TeX does this, > using some simple rules to recognise a full stop. On the rare > occasions it gets this wrong, you can overrule it. Word can be set up to do this via auto-correct. However, it is *very* hard to change a document from 1-space to 2-spaces after a full-stop without reading through the document correcting things like "Dr. So-and-so". > End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: > you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word documents are > almost always hideous. You can argue that Word is not meant to be > publication-quality stuff, but unfortunately that's what many people Word isn't meant for anything more difficult than writing the occasional letter. Unless you want to spend gregarious amounts of money on courses to learn all the intricacies of how to make Word annoy you less. :) > do use it for. Besides, I prefer even an ordinary letter to be nicely > typeset, and LaTeX lets me do that without compromising on ease of > use. (For those who must have their point&click, there's LyX.) Cheers, Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 10: 2: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BFA137B506 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:01:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 7521 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Apr 2001 17:01:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:01:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Freddie Cash Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <3AD6CE45.5872.383AAA1@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recommend FrameMaker for a lot of the stuff mentioned below... It's great for technical writing, etc. FrameMaker+SGML is nice... If you can afford it. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Freddie Cash wrote: > On 13 Apr 2001, at 16:59, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the desktops, > > > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is just > > > > about the best office product out there ]. > > > > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it away] > > > Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > > > To all ye office users: > > I have some questions about MS Word. I never use it myself, but I > > know people who do, and it seems to me that they have a hard time > > doing some very basic things which TeX/LaTeX have done since the > > 1980s. Or maybe Word does do all this but users don't know it? > [snip] > WordPerfect 7+ does this. Just finished a couple of papers for > school that used all but the label feature. The nice thing is that > even when it does something automatically, you can go into Reveal > Codes to see what it did, and customise it to the way you work. > > > > These are the things I'm doubtful about. There are plenty of > things > > I'm not doubtful about: Word doesn't do them, at least not in any word > > document I've seen. > > (1) Math: Word's support for equations is rudimentary at best. > Word *really* lacks in this area. WordPerfect is great for this. > Did all my Stats notes in WP8, and have nice equations, while the guy > next to me tried using Word 97, and gave up after the first month. > > > (3) Paragraph-level formatting: TeX formats text a paragraph at a > > time, to avoid ugly effects like "ladders" that could happen when > > you do things a line at a time. Adobe introduced that in some of > > their DTP software much later. Word doesn't do it. > You *can* do this in word, but there's no indication of where the > formatting starts and stops. WordPerfect does this beautifully, > though. And you can copy word/line/paragraph/page/document level > formatting between areas. > > > (4) Spacing after full stops: in English language text, traditionally > > one leaves a bit of extra space after a full stop. TeX does this, > > using some simple rules to recognise a full stop. On the rare > > occasions it gets this wrong, you can overrule it. > Word can be set up to do this via auto-correct. However, it is > *very* hard to change a document from 1-space to 2-spaces after a > full-stop without reading through the document correcting things like > "Dr. So-and-so". > > > End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: > > you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word documents are > > almost always hideous. You can argue that Word is not meant to be > > publication-quality stuff, but unfortunately that's what many people > Word isn't meant for anything more difficult than writing the > occasional letter. Unless you want to spend gregarious amounts of > money on courses to learn all the intricacies of how to make Word > annoy you less. :) > > > do use it for. Besides, I prefer even an ordinary letter to be nicely > > typeset, and LaTeX lets me do that without compromising on ease of > > use. (For those who must have their point&click, there's LyX.) > > Cheers, > Freddie > fcash@bigfoot.com > > > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your > ego at the door. > - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 10:11:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E50C37B50B for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from darkside (freddie.boonie.org [209.52.175.37]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA30731; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:11:23 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: Joseph Mallett , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:12:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3AD6D107.17173.38E6F4A@localhost> References: <3AD6CE45.5872.383AAA1@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 2001, at 13:01, Joseph Mallett wrote: > I recommend FrameMaker for a lot of the stuff mentioned below... It's > great for technical writing, etc. FrameMaker+SGML is nice... If you > can afford it. That's one the places WordPerfect excels. Since WordPerfect is pretty much just an SGML DTD, it works very well with SGML. Creating DTDs, compiling DTDs, and data-layouts. Very simple tools for it are included, and the GUI is top-notch (of course, I haven't seen many SGML GUIs to compare it to). Haven't played much with SGML, though. However, no matter how much I may like WordPerfect, it it not the perfect tool for everyone. :( Cheers, Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com > On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Freddie Cash wrote: > > > On 13 Apr 2001, at 16:59, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > Or many of us are at work in a Windows only shop as the > > > > > desktops, > > > > > and our webservers are nix. [Flame War --- As M$ office is > > > > > just about the best office product out there ]. > > > > > > [What's this white spirits sitting by my desk? /me throws it > > > > away] Agree. There is no other office suite worth the same. > > > > > To all ye office users: > > > I have some questions about MS Word. I never use it myself, but I > > > know people who do, and it seems to me that they have a hard time > > > doing some very basic things which TeX/LaTeX have done since the > > > 1980s. Or maybe Word does do all this but users don't know it? > > [snip] > > WordPerfect 7+ does this. Just finished a couple of papers for > > school that used all but the label feature. The nice thing is that > > even when it does something automatically, you can go into Reveal > > Codes to see what it did, and customise it to the way you work. > > > > > > > These are the things I'm doubtful about. There are plenty of > > things > > > I'm not doubtful about: Word doesn't do them, at least not in any > > > word document I've seen. (1) Math: Word's support for equations is > > > rudimentary at best. > > Word *really* lacks in this area. WordPerfect is great for this. > > Did all my Stats notes in WP8, and have nice equations, while the > > guy next to me tried using Word 97, and gave up after the first > > month. > > > > > (3) Paragraph-level formatting: TeX formats text a paragraph at a > > > time, to avoid ugly effects like "ladders" that could happen > > > when you do things a line at a time. Adobe introduced that in > > > some of their DTP software much later. Word doesn't do it. > > You *can* do this in word, but there's no indication of where the > > formatting starts and stops. WordPerfect does this beautifully, > > though. And you can copy word/line/paragraph/page/document level > > formatting between areas. > > > > > (4) Spacing after full stops: in English language text, > > > traditionally > > > one leaves a bit of extra space after a full stop. TeX does > > > this, using some simple rules to recognise a full stop. On > > > the rare occasions it gets this wrong, you can overrule it. > > Word can be set up to do this via auto-correct. However, it is > > *very* hard to change a document from 1-space to 2-spaces after a > > full-stop without reading through the document correcting things > > like "Dr. So-and-so". > > > > > End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look > > > at: you have to try rather hard to screw them up. MS Word > > > documents are almost always hideous. You can argue that Word is > > > not meant to be publication-quality stuff, but unfortunately > > > that's what many people > > Word isn't meant for anything more difficult than writing the > > occasional letter. Unless you want to spend gregarious amounts of > > money on courses to learn all the intricacies of how to make Word > > annoy you less. :) > > > > > do use it for. Besides, I prefer even an ordinary letter to be > > > nicely typeset, and LaTeX lets me do that without compromising on > > > ease of use. (For those who must have their point&click, there's > > > LyX.) > > > > Cheers, > > Freddie > > fcash@bigfoot.com > > > > > > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your > > ego at the door. > > - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 10:21:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB18637B449 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3DHLdq68385 ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:21:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA07285 ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:21:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:21:37 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Freddie Cash Cc: Joseph Mallett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010413192137.O82834@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Freddie Cash , Joseph Mallett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3AD6CE45.5872.383AAA1@localhost> <3AD6D107.17173.38E6F4A@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AD6D107.17173.38E6F4A@localhost>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:12:23AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie Cash said on Apr 13, 2001 at 10:12:23: > On 13 Apr 2001, at 13:01, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > I recommend FrameMaker for a lot of the stuff mentioned below... It's > > great for technical writing, etc. FrameMaker+SGML is nice... If you > > can afford it. > > That's one the places WordPerfect excels. Since WordPerfect is > pretty much just an SGML DTD, it works very well with SGML. Creating > DTDs, compiling DTDs, and data-layouts. Very simple tools for it are > included, and the GUI is top-notch (of course, I haven't seen many > SGML GUIs to compare it to). Haven't played much with SGML, though. > > However, no matter how much I may like WordPerfect, it it not the > perfect tool for everyone. :( A project that looks like, if it works, it could actually be the perfect tool for everyone, is http://www.conglomerate.org Unfortunately it seems to be dead... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 11:32:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6C937B42C for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:32:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14o8MW-00073e-00; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:32:04 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: good books for teaching Unix? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I need to choose some books for students learning Unix (by using Debian Linux and a BSD). These students will be have no Unix knowledge and probably no experience with any command-line interfaces, but probably have some minor (to advanced) Windows administration knowledge. I need to find books that are useful in a teaching environment for beginning Unix (and appropriate for both *BSD and Linux). Unix Shell Essentials This course provides you with the understanding of the Unix filesystem and environment, and knowledge of using Unix command-line shells and fundamental Unix tools and utilities. The course will help you work effectively with standard BSD and GNU commands using the shell (command-line) interface. Unix Shell Essentials will cover using text processing filters; performing basic file management; using Unix streams, pipes, and redirects; creating, monitoring and killing processes; modifying process execution priorities; and making use of regular expressions. This course is one of a series of courses that will prepare you for Linux certification tests. (Notice how this says "Linux certification" -- anyone interested in helping with a neutral or BSD certification, please let me know.[1]) This first class is mostly for non-superuser type work and includes beginning vi usage, and using a few different shells. The second class covers basic system administration, including basic networking, DNS, managing users, logging, backups, and configuring startup scripts. The third class covers hardware issues, installations, partitioning, configuring kernels (BSD and Linux), and drivers (and kernel modules). (A few other classes will also be scheduled.) Can anyone suggest some books that would be appropriate for supplementary information for these beginning students? The books I am considering are: UNIX System Administration Handbook (O'Reilly) Unix Power Tools (O'Reilly) Essential System Administration (AEleen Frisch) Unix Made Easy (John Muster) (I have not read any of these books though. [2]) Also, does anyone know of -- or interested in starting -- a mailing list for teaching Unix (not discussion for beginners, but discussion on how to teach and what to teach)? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ 1) I have already contacted the three major certification testing delivery centers. 2) I have probably read over 20 Unix, networking and Linux books, but none seem to fit the needs. I am currently finishiong "Running Linux" (O'Reilly), but it has little direct BSD information, too Linux specific, and the shell/basic utilities information is very slim. Some useful books I have include "UNIX Text Processing" (Dougherty/O'Reilly), "UNIX: The Complete Reference" (Coffin), and "A User Guide to the UNIX System" -- includes Berkeley UNIX! -- (Thomas/Yates). But they have little BSD or Linux administration information -- and they are old (1989, 1988, 1985). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 11:52:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [66.42.61.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E7537B50D for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 599751555C; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:42:06 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010413074206.A35752@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@catonic.net on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:10:51PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.2-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waning Gibbous (70% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-GPG-FINGERPRINT: 3F11 DB43 F080 C037 96F0 F8D3 5BD2 652B 171C 86DB X-Uptime: 7:40AM up 24 days, 12:08, 3 users, load averages: 0.03, 0.01, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby (kris@catonic.net) wrote: > On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as > > your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a > > RELIABLE operating system! > > Hey! Wait a minute! Email *is* mission-critical. When was the last time > you went without email for a few days? :-) > I would like to see a Windows based Email program try to open a mailbox with 500 messages (threaded). ;-) Some of us archive our mail for reference when we can't get online ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most -- Ozzy Ozbourne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 12: 9: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8482037B43E for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21774; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:08:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413130650.0463a6c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:08:33 -0600 To: Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 AM 4/13/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: >Hey! Wait a minute! Email *is* mission-critical. When was the last time >you went without email for a few days? :-) And my mission-critical data, INCLUDING my e-mail, is kept and backed up safely on the server. I just use the client to read and write it. If the client dies, no loss. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 12: 9:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2695637B506 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21798; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:09:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413130853.04595160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:09:20 -0600 To: Chip Wiegand From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010413065044.3824814c.chip@wiegand.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> <20010412222604.5bb984ab.chip@wiegand.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010413000646.00cca610@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:50 AM 4/13/2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: >So you believe windoze to be more reliable than BSD? Of course not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 12:13:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A06237B422 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:13:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21872; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:13:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413131149.00db16f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:13:24 -0600 To: fcash@bigfoot.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re:Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <3AD6CC62.15731.37C4C0E@localhost> References: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:52 AM 4/13/2001, Freddie Cash wrote: >As for MUAs, so long as the mail travels reliably between servers, >and the servers are solid enough to service all the clients, then it >doesn't really matter what they are running on the client end. I'm >writing this in Pegasus Mail since that's the proggie I've used for >the past 5 years, before I found FreeBSD. Someday, I might move to a >FreeBSD desktop, but for now I'm content with Win98SE on the laptop >and FreeBSD in the server room. As I've said for many years now: The most popular desktop for FreeBSD and Linux is... Windows. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 13:23: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8BA837B42C for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from darkside (freddie.boonie.org [209.52.175.37]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19756; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:23:02 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:24:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Message-ID: <3AD6FDF0.434.43DE519@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010413074206.A35752@lunatic.oneinsane.net> References: ; from kris@catonic.net on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:10:51PM +0000 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 2001, at 7:42, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > Kris Kirby (kris@catonic.net) wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as > > > your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a > > > RELIABLE operating system! > > Hey! Wait a minute! Email *is* mission-critical. When was the last > > time you went without email for a few days? :-) > I would like to see a Windows based Email program try to open a > mailbox with 500 messages (threaded). ;-) Pegasus Mail for Windows does this without a problem, threaded or not. :) Have a mailbox with 694 messages (sized from 4 - 722K) that works great. I have several mailboxes with over 300 messages in them, fully threaded, with no problems. Now, *I'd* like to see a Microsoft product try that. :) Just because something runs on Windows doesn't mean it's automatically crap. However, if Microsoft codes that program, the odds are *very* high that it's crap. :) Cheers, Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com Reject complexity, embrace simplicity, and leave your ego at the door. - Colonel Kernel @ http://dualboot.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 14: 0:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 711A137B506 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18354; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:00:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAZiaOHS; Fri Apr 13 10:51:09 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14193; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:54:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104131754.KAA14193@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists To: kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:54:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kirby" at Apr 13, 2001 01:10:51 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It's OK to use an unreliable machine for your MUA, just so long as > > your mission-critical data is backed up on a machine running a > > RELIABLE operating system! > > Hey! Wait a minute! Email *is* mission-critical. When was the last time > you went without email for a few days? :-) It is OK to have the MUA on a machine that is unreliable, so long as the email itself is stored and sent via a reliable machine. In other words, all most people run on their PC's is User Interface. If instead of looking at the MUA, you were to look at the first (historically: last in order) "Received:" timestamp line, you would get a better picture of what people are using as their mail server. The MUA numbers should come as no surprise to anyone: o For years, Jordan has been stating that FreeBSD is a server OS, not a desktop o Anytime some wants to make FreeBSD more suitable for desktop use, everyone jumps down their throat, and automatically (and incorrectly) assumes that this would make FreeBSD less useful as a server. o FreeBSD has not actively pursued desktop software: o FreeBSD has not lobbied Microsoft to port its "Office" suite of software o FreeBSD steadfastly refuses to choose a single official GUI and toolkit (this is one of the reasons Microsoft states they have not ported Office to Linux) o FreeBSD application training is not really transportable from one application to another, because there is no style guide, and the tools available could not enforce style guide conformance, even if there were one o FreeBSD does not have a standard install software system that is as sophisticated as InstallShield, for use by commercial software installation o FreeBSD has a number of "data interfaces" which, unlike procedural interfaces, are bound to vary between releases, thus limiting the total available market for any commercial software (see anything linked to libkva as an example of this). o FreeBSD does not have a standard method of installing and uninstalling startup and shutdown procedures for third party layered software that would allow such software to replace FreeBSD default components (e.g to replace Sendmail with MS Exchange for FreeBSD). o FreeBSD binaries only run on FreeBSD, and the FreeBSD ABI is significantly less popular than the Linux ABI, since the Linux people have actively pursued making Linux binaries run everywhere (this would be a big point in Linux' favor, if their ABI weren't so fungible) o FreeBSD management and operation is far from user friendly; thus a Microsoft product would be as hard to manage as any other package, well below Microsoft's usability standards: o Fixing this requires a "regitry" style system o FreeBSD's developement environment is nowhere near as usable for shallow programmers of desktop software as, for example, Visual BASIC or Visual C++. Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated than average. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 14:28:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109A837B446 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3DLSUq81899 ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:28:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA15253 ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:28:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:28:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kirby , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200104131754.KAA14193@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104131754.KAA14193@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:54:02PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > o FreeBSD has not actively pursued desktop software: > > o FreeBSD has not lobbied Microsoft to port > its "Office" suite of software > > o FreeBSD steadfastly refuses to choose a > single official GUI and toolkit (this is > one of the reasons Microsoft states they > have not ported Office to Linux) When did Microsoft say that was a reason? And do you honestly think they would port it to FreeBSD if "lobbied" to do so? > o FreeBSD does not have a standard install > software system that is as sophisticated as > InstallShield, for use by commercial > software installation It seems to me that all a company needs to do is supply their own install and uninstall programs, which are graphical front-ends to the pkg_add and pkg_delete commands. One click, pkg_add; another click, pkg_delete. > o FreeBSD does not have a standard method of > installing and uninstalling startup and > shutdown procedures for third party layered > software that would allow such software to > replace FreeBSD default components (e.g to > replace Sendmail with MS Exchange for FreeBSD). The thing to do would be to have separate startup scripts in /usr/local/etc/rc.d or whatever for exchange, and ask the user to say sendmail_enable="NO" in /etc/rc.conf (any competent sysad should know to do that, surely?) Besides, I don't think one should encourage them to port MS Exchange for FreeBSD. (Or MS Office, either, actually. Unless it switches to some open XML-based document format, as I read somewhere they're planning to do.) > o FreeBSD management and operation is far from user > friendly; thus a Microsoft product would be as hard > to manage as any other package, well below Microsoft's > usability standards: > > o Fixing this requires a "regitry" style system /var/db/pkg? All one needs is a GUI tool to use it. Surely Microsoft would be willing to write that if they thought it was a big issue. > o FreeBSD's developement environment is nowhere near as > usable for shallow programmers of desktop software as, > for example, Visual BASIC or Visual C++. kdevelop? > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > than average. I disagree. The reason most users use windows is that they get it pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a problem. I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were much less polished) for people having trouble with their windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux installation to this day. Netscape for email and web browsing, Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 16:30:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B22CA37B423 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 47607 invoked by uid 100); 13 Apr 2001 23:30:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15063.35841.244211.148235@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:30:09 -0500 To: Joseph Mallett Cc: Freddie Cash , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: References: <3AD6CE45.5872.383AAA1@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett types: > I recommend FrameMaker for a lot of the stuff mentioned below... It's > great for technical writing, etc. FrameMaker+SGML is nice... If you can > afford it. Yup. FrameMaker is what a DTP package should be. The Linux version even ran nicely on FreeBSD, until it expired :-(. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 16:57:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC65137B440 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:57:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA18506; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:57:35 -0700 Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd58K_Ma; Fri Apr 13 16:57:26 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20921; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:00:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:00:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Apr 13, 2001 11:28:29 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > o FreeBSD steadfastly refuses to choose a > > single official GUI and toolkit (this is > > one of the reasons Microsoft states they > > have not ported Office to Linux) > > When did Microsoft say that was a reason? In an interview with Dave something or other, VP over Office and similar products, in an article on Slashdot. He said that that was _one_ of the reasons. Another reason he gave is the Linux communities hatred of everything Microsoft. FreeBSD doesn't have that handicap (Knee-jerk Kamikaze Fanatics Against Microsoft). > And do you honestly think they would port it to FreeBSD if "lobbied" > to do so? No. For the other reasons stated. They might, if FreeBSD made their ABI run everywhere, like Linux seems intent on doing, since it would immediately buy the UnixWare, SCO OpenServer, Solaris, and other x86 UNIX systems (maybe even Linux) as potential customers. > > o FreeBSD does not have a standard install > > software system that is as sophisticated as > > InstallShield, for use by commercial > > software installation > > It seems to me that all a company needs to do is supply their own > install and uninstall programs, which are graphical front-ends to > the pkg_add and pkg_delete commands. One click, pkg_add; another > click, pkg_delete. No. To be as kind as possible, pkg_add is a piece of shit. > > o FreeBSD does not have a standard method of > > installing and uninstalling startup and > > shutdown procedures for third party layered > > software that would allow such software to > > replace FreeBSD default components (e.g to > > replace Sendmail with MS Exchange for FreeBSD). > > The thing to do would be to have separate startup scripts in > /usr/local/etc/rc.d or whatever for exchange, and ask the user to say > sendmail_enable="NO" in /etc/rc.conf (any competent sysad should know > to do that, surely?) No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. > Besides, I don't think one should encourage them to port MS Exchange > for FreeBSD. (Or MS Office, either, actually. Unless it switches > to some open XML-based document format, as I read somewhere they're > planning to do.) Yeah, and while you are discouraging them from doing that, people are buying Windows for their desktops because of the average estimated $2,500 per seat that a company spends to train their employees not being portable to FreeBSD because the applications on FreeBSD don't follow the Windows style guidelines, and it's impossible to hire a temp worker who is already trained on the FreeBSD specific applications, but it's easy to hire someone trained on Office to fill in for a day down in your finance department. It's about money, which is what the people who don't pay money for their software can't seem to understand, and why they aren't making any significant inroads into The Real World(tm). Cost is not measured in software costs: that's the least of it, or people would balk at paying Microsoft's rates. As a starving college student, you might like free software and balk at the cost, but as a starving college student, your cost for Microsoft products is "a lot of money", while your time is practically worthless, so 80 hours spent learning TeX costs you less, overall, than buying the product would. But now try to get a temp job doing TeX to make some extra money. > > o FreeBSD management and operation is far from user > > friendly; thus a Microsoft product would be as hard > > to manage as any other package, well below Microsoft's > > usability standards: > > > > o Fixing this requires a "regitry" style system > > /var/db/pkg? All one needs is a GUI tool to use it. Surely Microsoft > would be willing to write that if they thought it was a big issue. No. A centralized configuration data store, so that (as an example) one MS product which knows about the innards of another can get information about it from a central place, through a single API. > > o FreeBSD's developement environment is nowhere near as > > usable for shallow programmers of desktop software as, > > for example, Visual BASIC or Visual C++. > > kdevelop? Is that the Visual C++ equivalent for FreeBSD, widely hailed by FreeBSD application developers as such, so that it now costs next to nothing to hire kids right out of colledge to use it, without having to spend money to train them on it? > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > than average. > > I disagree. Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a stock broker. > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > problem. Sure they do: 1) Call help desk 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as an ends in itself (like some geek) > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > installation to this day. They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. Or you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small closed shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in The Real World(tm) > Netscape for email and web browsing, > Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're > quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that > I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for > them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. Until they had to do business with someone other than themselves. If I'm buying an $16M package of sub-prime credit loans at a rediscounted rate form Credit Suisse-First Boston, you can be damn sure that the data they send to me is going to be in the form of an Excell spreadsheet. If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way business is. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 17:27:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C61237B496 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.05) id AB0B94C00304; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:34:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:32:55 -0700 From: Chip Wiegand To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-Id: <20010413173255.4c8d0b10.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413131149.00db16f0@localhost> References: <200104131436.f3DEa3e07944@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010413131149.00db16f0@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.62 (GTK+ 1.2.8; i386--freebsd4.2) Organization: wiegand.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:13:24 -0600 Brett Glass surely must have wrote something like: > At 10:52 AM 4/13/2001, Freddie Cash wrote: > > >As for MUAs, so long as the mail travels reliably between servers, > >and the servers are solid enough to service all the clients, then it > >doesn't really matter what they are running on the client end. I'm > >writing this in Pegasus Mail since that's the proggie I've used for > >the past 5 years, before I found FreeBSD. Someday, I might move to a > >FreeBSD desktop, but for now I'm content with Win98SE on the laptop > >and FreeBSD in the server room. > > As I've said for many years now: > > The most popular desktop for FreeBSD and Linux is... Windows. > > --Brett Brett, Brett, Brett, are you sick in the head? Heh, heh, :-). You are kidding of course. I sit in front of NT boxes all day at work - my workstation and 6 servers (the FreeBSD box is in a usually dark and closed room). I can hardly wait to get home and work on my FBSD box running XFCE for the desktop - it's sooooo much cleaner, simpler, easier to use, etc etc. Good day, :-) -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 17:32:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E9F337B507 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 49035 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2001 00:32:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15063.39576.995081.739592@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:32:24 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> References: <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > The thing to do would be to have separate startup scripts in > > /usr/local/etc/rc.d or whatever for exchange, and ask the user to say > > sendmail_enable="NO" in /etc/rc.conf (any competent sysad should know > > to do that, surely?) > No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require > of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines > on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. Can you provide a URL for the document you're thinking about? There seem to be a number of things, but I can't find anything with specific, just general commentary. I'd really be interested in seeing it, as every time I have to use Windows, I'm amazed at how clumsy and unfriendly an interface this supposedly "user friendly" system has. > > Besides, I don't think one should encourage them to port MS Exchange > > for FreeBSD. (Or MS Office, either, actually. Unless it switches > > to some open XML-based document format, as I read somewhere they're > > planning to do.) > Yeah, and while you are discouraging them from doing that, > people are buying Windows for their desktops because of the > average estimated $2,500 per seat that a company spends to > train their employees not being portable to FreeBSD because > the applications on FreeBSD don't follow the Windows style > guidelines, and it's impossible to hire a temp worker who is > already trained on the FreeBSD specific applications, but it's > easy to hire someone trained on Office to fill in for a day > down in your finance department. That, of course, is why FreeBSD isn't going anywhere in an office. It can't break the monopoly hold that MS has on the desktop. > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > than average. > > I disagree. > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > stock broker. I admit I'm a geek, but I still disagree. Once it's installed and configured, FreeBSD is perfectly usable by those people. It requires no more training tha MS-Windows does. It is *perfectly* suitable for supporting an MUA; there are no technical, usability or even intuitive issues (but see Raskin on intuition) that make it inferior to MS-Windows. The only problem it has is that finding people who have already drunk the MS cool-aid is easy, whereas finding people trained for some Unix toolset is hard. Sure, the average MS-Windows user can't install or configure the software on FreeBSD. Then again, the average MS-Windows user can't install or configure the software on MS-Windows either, so that's sort of moot. > > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > > problem. > Sure they do: > 1) Call help desk > 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement > 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as > an ends in itself (like some geek) Of course, this isn't an MS-Windows feature. The exact same fix works in shops that install Unix on desktops. > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > installation to this day. > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. That depens on the software that's been installed. > Or you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small > closed shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in > The Real World(tm) I'm not positive, but my experience with MS Exchange indicate that this argument implies everyone working in TRW has to have MS Exchange as a mail server. I've had more problems with people using Outlook/Exchange sending me mail with formatting information that didn't survive Exchange's SMTP gateway than I have with people sending MS Word docs or similar closed formats. > > Netscape for email and web browsing, > > Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're > > quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that > > I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for > > them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. > If I'm buying an $16M package of sub-prime credit loans at a > rediscounted rate form Credit Suisse-First Boston, you can be > damn sure that the data they send to me is going to be in the > form of an Excell spreadsheet. And chances are that it'll load into StarOffice just fine. > If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you > _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way > business is. In other words, to have an open shop, you have to use a closed system. That's amusing. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 17:39: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5A837B506 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tyson@stanfordalumni.org) Received: from stanfordalumni.org (1Cust155.tnt26.tco2.da.uu.net [63.11.124.155]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25643; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net> From: Don Tyson To: sidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: TeX and LaTeX [WAS: MUA stuff] Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:37:13 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snipped] End result: TeX/LaTeX documents are consistently beautiful to look at: [snipped] Agreed -- when you are sending a printed document. But how do you email the TeX document to someone who doesn't have TeX on the other end, much less something to view a PostScript or .dvi document with? Don Tyson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 17:46: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A782037B42C for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010414004602.GESI18346.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:46:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3AD7ABB5.39FBC405@home.com> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:45:25 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Kris Kirby , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists References: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > o FreeBSD steadfastly refuses to choose a > > > single official GUI and toolkit (this is > > > one of the reasons Microsoft states they > > > have not ported Office to Linux) > > > > When did Microsoft say that was a reason? > > In an interview with Dave something or other, VP over Office > and similar products, in an article on Slashdot. He said > that that was _one_ of the reasons. Another reason he gave > is the Linux communities hatred of everything Microsoft. > FreeBSD doesn't have that handicap (Knee-jerk Kamikaze > Fanatics Against Microsoft). > > > And do you honestly think they would port it to FreeBSD if "lobbied" > > to do so? > > No. For the other reasons stated. They might, if FreeBSD made > their ABI run everywhere, like Linux seems intent on doing, since > it would immediately buy the UnixWare, SCO OpenServer, Solaris, > and other x86 UNIX systems (maybe even Linux) as potential > customers. > > > > o FreeBSD does not have a standard install > > > software system that is as sophisticated as > > > InstallShield, for use by commercial > > > software installation > > > > It seems to me that all a company needs to do is supply their own > > install and uninstall programs, which are graphical front-ends to > > the pkg_add and pkg_delete commands. One click, pkg_add; another > > click, pkg_delete. > > No. To be as kind as possible, pkg_add is a piece of shit. > > > > o FreeBSD does not have a standard method of > > > installing and uninstalling startup and > > > shutdown procedures for third party layered > > > software that would allow such software to > > > replace FreeBSD default components (e.g to > > > replace Sendmail with MS Exchange for FreeBSD). > > > > The thing to do would be to have separate startup scripts in > > /usr/local/etc/rc.d or whatever for exchange, and ask the user to say > > sendmail_enable="NO" in /etc/rc.conf (any competent sysad should know > > to do that, surely?) > > No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require > of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines > on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. > > > Besides, I don't think one should encourage them to port MS Exchange > > for FreeBSD. (Or MS Office, either, actually. Unless it switches > > to some open XML-based document format, as I read somewhere they're > > planning to do.) > > Yeah, and while you are discouraging them from doing that, > people are buying Windows for their desktops because of the > average estimated $2,500 per seat that a company spends to > train their employees not being portable to FreeBSD because > the applications on FreeBSD don't follow the Windows style > guidelines, and it's impossible to hire a temp worker who is > already trained on the FreeBSD specific applications, but it's > easy to hire someone trained on Office to fill in for a day > down in your finance department. > > It's about money, which is what the people who don't pay money > for their software can't seem to understand, and why they aren't > making any significant inroads into The Real World(tm). Cost is > not measured in software costs: that's the least of it, or people > would balk at paying Microsoft's rates. As a starving college > student, you might like free software and balk at the cost, but > as a starving college student, your cost for Microsoft products > is "a lot of money", while your time is practically worthless, so > 80 hours spent learning TeX costs you less, overall, than buying > the product would. But now try to get a temp job doing TeX to > make some extra money. > > > > o FreeBSD management and operation is far from user > > > friendly; thus a Microsoft product would be as hard > > > to manage as any other package, well below Microsoft's > > > usability standards: > > > > > > o Fixing this requires a "regitry" style system > > > > /var/db/pkg? All one needs is a GUI tool to use it. Surely Microsoft > > would be willing to write that if they thought it was a big issue. > > No. A centralized configuration data store, so that (as an > example) one MS product which knows about the innards of another > can get information about it from a central place, through a > single API. > > > > o FreeBSD's developement environment is nowhere near as > > > usable for shallow programmers of desktop software as, > > > for example, Visual BASIC or Visual C++. > > > > kdevelop? > > Is that the Visual C++ equivalent for FreeBSD, widely hailed by > FreeBSD application developers as such, so that it now costs > next to nothing to hire kids right out of colledge to use it, > without having to spend money to train them on it? > > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > than average. > > > > I disagree. > > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > stock broker. > > > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > > problem. > > Sure they do: > > 1) Call help desk > 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement > 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as > an ends in itself (like some geek) > > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > installation to this day. > > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. Or > you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small closed > shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in The > Real World(tm) > > > Netscape for email and web browsing, > > Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're > > quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that > > I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for > > them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. > > Until they had to do business with someone other than themselves. > > If I'm buying an $16M package of sub-prime credit loans at a > rediscounted rate form Credit Suisse-First Boston, you can be > damn sure that the data they send to me is going to be in the > form of an Excell spreadsheet. > > If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you > _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way > business is. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I started to enjoy MS products more when I realized that I could script them with PythonWin using the Microsoft COM. Its fun to use Excel as the GUI for a data gathering application. Sure to amaze the co-workers. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 18:50:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D1F37B443 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:50:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3E1oWq15615; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:50:32 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AD6FDF0.434.43DE519@localhost> References: ; from kris@catonic.net on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 01:10:51PM +0000 <3AD6FDF0.434.43DE519@localhost> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:33:44 +0200 To: fcash@bigfoot.com, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:24 PM -0700 4/13/01, Freddie Cash wrote: >> I would like to see a Windows based Email program try to open a >> mailbox with 500 messages (threaded). ;-) > > Pegasus Mail for Windows does this without a problem, threaded or > not. :) Have a mailbox with 694 messages (sized from 4 - 722K) that > works great. I have several mailboxes with over 300 messages in > them, fully threaded, with no problems. Pshaw. I have mailboxes with thousands of messages in them, and Eudora opens them just fine. I usually work to try to keep things below a thousand or so (for speed reasons), but this is merely a preference. I've had PowerMail message stores with tens of thousands of messages in the message base (indexed via vTwin technology, where each "mailbox" is just a different view into the same message base), although I have since gone back to Eudora. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 18:50:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE69B37B509 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f3E1nVF15002; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:49:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:49:31 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Don Tyson Cc: sidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TeX and LaTeX [WAS: MUA stuff] Message-ID: <20010413184931.A4752@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net>; from tyson@stanfordalumni.org on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:37:13PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:37:13PM -0400, Don Tyson wrote: > Agreed -- when you are sending a printed document. But how do you email = the TeX > document to someone who doesn't have TeX on the other end, much less some= thing to view a > PostScript or .dvi document with?=20 pdflatex -- brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE616yqXY6L6fI4GtQRAr9UAKDVigDv9IHzVQ3YHHL70k7m7+9prwCfY//7 a2EJ2f0UsgHUyAZK8BBTNgw= =e2iD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 18:54:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B36537B50D for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3E1qw200222; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:52:59 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net> References: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:52:20 +0200 To: Don Tyson , sidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: TeX and LaTeX [WAS: MUA stuff] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:37 PM -0400 4/13/01, Don Tyson wrote: > Agreed -- when you are sending a printed document. But how do you email > the TeX document to someone who doesn't have TeX on the other end, much > less something to view a PostScript or .dvi document with? Convert to PDF. Most people do have Adobe Acrobat installed. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 22:58:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B840D37B440 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA13462; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:58:40 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd1jjdUa; Fri Apr 13 22:58:31 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05887; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:59:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104140559.WAA05887@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:59:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <15063.39576.995081.739592@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 13, 2001 07:32:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require > > of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines > > on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. > > Can you provide a URL for the document you're thinking about? There > seem to be a number of things, but I can't find anything with > specific, just general commentary. I'd really be interested in seeing > it, as every time I have to use Windows, I'm amazed at how clumsy and > unfriendly an interface this supposedly "user friendly" system has. Not off the top of my head. I can dig into the "disability usability guidelines" article I received from MS Developer network, if you think you really need it. [ ... training costs already paid by someone else ... ] > That, of course, is why FreeBSD isn't going anywhere in an office. It > can't break the monopoly hold that MS has on the desktop. It's not a monopoly issue. If the training were transferrable to FreeBSD, it would be a non-issue. > > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > > than average. > > > I disagree. > > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > > stock broker. > > I admit I'm a geek, but I still disagree. Once it's installed and > configured, FreeBSD is perfectly usable by those people. It requires > no more training tha MS-Windows does. It is *perfectly* suitable for > supporting an MUA; there are no technical, usability or even intuitive > issues (but see Raskin on intuition) that make it inferior to > MS-Windows. The only problem it has is that finding people who have > already drunk the MS cool-aid is easy, whereas finding people trained > for some Unix toolset is hard. People _already_ have training on Windows. You're asking me to fork out another $2,500 to train them on a particular application on FreeBSD, where the money I spend is flushed down the toilet, because it's not transferrable to another application in the same niche that runs on FreeBSD (is "F1 = Help"? --- one example). > Sure, the average MS-Windows user can't install or configure the > software on FreeBSD. Then again, the average MS-Windows user can't > install or configure the software on MS-Windows either, so that's sort > of moot. It has nothing to do with installation. It has everything to do with whether or not _your_ tabbed dialogs look and operate exactly like the OS's tabbed dialogs in the control panel, so that once you learn one, you've learned them all. > > > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > > > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > > > problem. > > Sure they do: > > 1) Call help desk > > 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement > > 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as > > an ends in itself (like some geek) > > Of course, this isn't an MS-Windows feature. The exact same fix works > in shops that install Unix on desktops. No, it doesn't. I have to learn the UNIX specific keyboard shortcuts. I have to learn how to make the "home" and "end" keys do what I expect them to do, in all their standard/ctrl/alt glory. > > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > > installation to this day. > > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. > > That depens on the software that's been installed. Really? I can give you Excel and Word 2000 documents that will crash both KDE apps and StarOffice, and I'll be damned if, when I send you an email with them attached, your Netscape will know about opening the right application, until you beat it over the head with a shovel. > > Or you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small > > closed shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in > > The Real World(tm) > > I'm not positive, but my experience with MS Exchange indicate that > this argument implies everyone working in TRW has to have MS Exchange > as a mail server. I've had more problems with people using > Outlook/Exchange sending me mail with formatting information that > didn't survive Exchange's SMTP gateway than I have with people sending > MS Word docs or similar closed formats. I happen to know the main TRW administrator; I went to school with him (he has a PhD in history) the majority of TRW uses VAX equipment for mail services, and gateways to anything other than that. Ask Wes Peters about "Eric Swedin", if you don't believe me. > > > Netscape for email and web browsing, > > > Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're > > > quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that > > > I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for > > > them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. > > If I'm buying an $16M package of sub-prime credit loans at a > > rediscounted rate form Credit Suisse-First Boston, you can be > > damn sure that the data they send to me is going to be in the > > form of an Excell spreadsheet. > > And chances are that it'll load into StarOffice just fine. Like hell. I happened to try that with _exactly_ the thing I'm talking about -- a $16M sub-prime credit package purchased from Credit Suisse-First Boston -- and it core dumped. > > If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you > > _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way > > business is. > > In other words, to have an open shop, you have to use a closed > system. That's amusing. No. In order to do business, you have to pay the devil his due, and that means running Microsoft products, and business doesn't give a flying whether you like that or not. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 23:46: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0106837B43F for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:45:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3E6ijK17088; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:44:45 GMT Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:44:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <200104140559.WAA05887@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > That, of course, is why FreeBSD isn't going anywhere in an office. It > > can't break the monopoly hold that MS has on the desktop. > > It's not a monopoly issue. If the training were transferrable to > FreeBSD, it would be a non-issue. We certainly know the reverse is true, if the person has been whacked in the head with an old IBM 101-key PS/2 keyboard long enough. :) > > I admit I'm a geek, but I still disagree. Once it's installed and What is this, Geeks Anonymous? :) > > configured, FreeBSD is perfectly usable by those people. It requires > > no more training tha MS-Windows does. It is *perfectly* suitable for > > supporting an MUA; there are no technical, usability or even intuitive > > issues (but see Raskin on intuition) that make it inferior to > > MS-Windows. The only problem it has is that finding people who have > > already drunk the MS cool-aid is easy, whereas finding people trained > > for some Unix toolset is hard. My motivation was getting a MUA that wasn't graphical (could be run over a terminal) and had a smaller {memory|disk} footprint than Netscape's Communicator. > People _already_ have training on Windows. You're asking me to fork > out another $2,500 to train them on a particular application on > FreeBSD, where the money I spend is flushed down the toilet, because > it's not transferrable to another application in the same niche that > runs on FreeBSD (is "F1 = Help"? --- one example). This is a damn good case for StarOffice. Too bad they don't have a Mac port... yet. Mac OS X is out, right? > No, it doesn't. I have to learn the UNIX specific keyboard > shortcuts. I have to learn how to make the "home" and "end" > keys do what I expect them to do, in all their standard/ctrl/alt > glory. Know much about programming VT100-alike terminals? I've been dying to know how to get the six keys where Insert-Page Down are to work. > Really? I can give you Excel and Word 2000 documents that will > crash both KDE apps and StarOffice, and I'll be damned if, when > I send you an email with them attached, your Netscape will know > about opening the right application, until you beat it over the > head with a shovel. Can you give me StarOffice documents that will crash Excel and Word in MS's own native formats? That would be more useful to me in my War against MS in the office >:-). [Think BOFH.] > No. In order to do business, you have to pay the devil his > due, and that means running Microsoft products, and business > doesn't give a flying whether you like that or not. Reminds me of my bit of futility when I heard about Napster; I photocopied a random MS CD and stuck it on the wall. I would suppose that you can't be sued for software piracy without actually copying the software. The CD layout itself is probably a different matter. (Look at OpenBSD's CD situation for the explaination.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 2:37:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5B237B42C for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:37:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from si@chemicalterrorism.com) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14oMU6-000JiF-0U; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:37:02 +0100 Received: from sycho (sycho.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.2]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C7847F442; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:35:13 +0100 (BST) From: "Si" To: , Subject: RE: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:35:28 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3AD6FDF0.434.43DE519@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org my $0.02, I use outlook here as i think its a decent product, have for a few years. Now over time my pst (microsoft bleh format mailbin) has grown to about 700mb and Im currently spooling on a work day around 700-1200 mails a day. Yea it takes about 5-10 minutes to get off the (FreeBSD ;) server but hey it works, the filtering works, after some config (read fighting) it'll do most *nix mta functions. I like it, for mail it seems reliable and I dont see the point in using FreeBSD on my desktop yet as there are certain thing *nix just doesnt do very well, talking open source only here. i.e. music, any os apps that can match cubase ? nope didnt think so. This is definetly one of those horses for courses arguments and its down the individual, windows on me desktop, bsd on the servers works fine here. Si. [snip] > Pegasus Mail for Windows does this without a problem, threaded or > not. :) Have a mailbox with 694 messages (sized from 4 - 722K) that > works great. I have several mailboxes with over 300 messages in > them, fully threaded, with no problems. > > Now, *I'd* like to see a Microsoft product try that. :) > > Just because something runs on Windows doesn't mean it's > automatically crap. However, if Microsoft codes that program, the > odds are *very* high that it's crap. :) > [snip] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 3:36:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.kornet.net (mail.kornet.net [168.126.72.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7E437B422 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from LG ([211.227.70.112]) by mail.kornet.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3EAaft06443 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:36:41 +0900 (KST) To: From: nonicamp@mail.kornet.net Subject: do you know thepayline? 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Don't wait! Join Now! And watch your organization take off like mines! GOD BLESS! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for free! My refferal is my ID(It's e-mail address) ==> nonicamp@hanmail.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Go here : http://www.thepayline.com (copy & paste into your web browser) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 3:46:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5360837B43F for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 66055 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2001 10:46:34 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15064.10890.325401.232786@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:46:34 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <200104140559.WAA05887@usr05.primenet.com> References: <15063.39576.995081.739592@guru.mired.org> <200104140559.WAA05887@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > > > than average. > > > > I disagree. > > > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > > > stock broker. > > > > I admit I'm a geek, but I still disagree. Once it's installed and > > configured, FreeBSD is perfectly usable by those people. It requires > > no more training tha MS-Windows does. It is *perfectly* suitable for > > supporting an MUA; there are no technical, usability or even intuitive > > issues (but see Raskin on intuition) that make it inferior to > > MS-Windows. The only problem it has is that finding people who have > > already drunk the MS cool-aid is easy, whereas finding people trained > > for some Unix toolset is hard. > People _already_ have training on Windows. That's what I just said. > > > > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > > > > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > > > > problem. > > > Sure they do: > > > 1) Call help desk > > > 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement > > > 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as > > > an ends in itself (like some geek) > > Of course, this isn't an MS-Windows feature. The exact same fix works > > in shops that install Unix on desktops. > No, it doesn't. Yes, it does. If a unix desktop is broken in a Unix shop, the steps a user takes to get it fixed are: 1) Call help desk. 2) Help desk fixes it, though reinstall or a replacment is considered an extreme case. 3) Go back to using the computer. > I have to learn the UNIX specific keyboard > shortcuts. I have to learn how to make the "home" and "end" > keys do what I expect them to do, in all their standard/ctrl/alt > glory. The pre-existing training - or lack thereof - has *nothing* to do with how IT staff fixes desktop machines. > > > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > > > installation to this day. > > > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > > > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. > > That depens on the software that's been installed. > Really? I can give you Excel and Word 2000 documents that will > crash both KDE apps and StarOffice, I've seen word docs that crash word. MS formats are no more stable than MS software. I've as yet to find a word doc that one of the multitude of free word translators wouldn't handle. > > > Or you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small > > > closed shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in > > > The Real World(tm) > > I'm not positive, but my experience with MS Exchange indicate that > > this argument implies everyone working in TRW has to have MS Exchange > > as a mail server. I've had more problems with people using > > Outlook/Exchange sending me mail with formatting information that > > didn't survive Exchange's SMTP gateway than I have with people sending > > MS Word docs or similar closed formats. > I happen to know the main TRW administrator; I went to school with > him (he has a PhD in history) the majority of TRW uses VAX equipment > for mail services, and gateways to anything other than that. Ask > Wes Peters about "Eric Swedin", if you don't believe me. Ok, you know this person. What does that have to do with what MS Exchange does to mail going out through it's SMTP gateway? > > > If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you > > > _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way > > > business is. > > In other words, to have an open shop, you have to use a closed > > system. That's amusing. > No. In order to do business, you have to pay the devil his > due, and that means running Microsoft products, and business > doesn't give a flying whether you like that or not. Again, you're repeating what I said. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 3:54:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EB437B422 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:54:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3EAsaq17067 ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:54:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA41782 ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:54:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:54:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brooks Davis Cc: Don Tyson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TeX and LaTeX [WAS: MUA stuff] Message-ID: <20010414125434.C40759@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brooks Davis , Don Tyson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net> <20010413184931.A4752@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010413184931.A4752@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 06:49:31PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis said on Apr 13, 2001 at 18:49:31: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:37:13PM -0400, Don Tyson wrote: > > Agreed -- when you are sending a printed document. But how do you email the TeX > > document to someone who doesn't have TeX on the other end, much less something to view a > > PostScript or .dvi document with? > > pdflatex I agree. And with pdftex/pdflatex you can also embed jpegs, gifs, pngs etc directly into the tex document. Anyway, most people I've corresponded with can view postscript. Or at least print it. I'm not suggesting it's a serious alternative to MS word for most people. But several people wrote "there's nothing as good as MS office". So I was just pointing out that MS Word still lags behind Knuth's 20 year old program and Lamport's 17 year old macro package in many respects... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 4:42:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5653137B424 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3EBgmq18911 ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:42:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA43232 ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:42:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:42:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kirby , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010414134247.E40759@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apart from comments other people have made, > > > o FreeBSD does not have a standard install > > > software system that is as sophisticated as > > > InstallShield, for use by commercial > > > software installation > > > > It seems to me that all a company needs to do is supply their own > > install and uninstall programs, which are graphical front-ends to > > the pkg_add and pkg_delete commands. One click, pkg_add; another > > click, pkg_delete. > > No. To be as kind as possible, pkg_add is a piece of shit. And what would you call the Windows registry? The only thing people can do if the registry is damaged is reinstall everything. That's always an option on any operating system, but (except in some bizarre situation) you never have to resort to that on FreeBSD. > > > o FreeBSD does not have a standard method of > > > installing and uninstalling startup and > > > shutdown procedures for third party layered > > > software that would allow such software to > > > replace FreeBSD default components (e.g to > > > replace Sendmail with MS Exchange for FreeBSD). > > > > The thing to do would be to have separate startup scripts in > > /usr/local/etc/rc.d or whatever for exchange, and ask the user to say > > sendmail_enable="NO" in /etc/rc.conf (any competent sysad should know > > to do that, surely?) > > No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require > of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines > on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. I can sympathise with ease-of-use requirements on the desktop, but not on a mailserver. If a system administrator couldn't handle any software that wasn't point-and-click, and if I were totally dependent on such a system administrator, I'd make a noise about it. > > Besides, I don't think one should encourage them to port MS Exchange > > for FreeBSD. (Or MS Office, either, actually. Unless it switches > > to some open XML-based document format, as I read somewhere they're > > planning to do.) > > Yeah, and while you are discouraging them from doing that, > people are buying Windows for their desktops because of the > average estimated $2,500 per seat that a company spends to > train their employees not being portable to FreeBSD because > the applications on FreeBSD don't follow the Windows style > guidelines, and it's impossible to hire a temp worker who is > already trained on the FreeBSD specific applications, but it's > easy to hire someone trained on Office to fill in for a day > down in your finance department. > > It's about money, which is what the people who don't pay money > for their software can't seem to understand, and why they aren't > making any significant inroads into The Real World(tm). I think you're *totally* missing the point here. I don't care whether MS Office costs $10 or $1000 or $10000 per seat. I do care that it has a monopoly, and it has a closed format, which causes a lock-in of users, exactly as you are saying. My way of fighting that is to refuse to read .doc files which other people send me (luckily, in my line that rarely happens); I ask for postscript or PDF instead. Yes, if everyone in the world used MS Word, maybe I'd have to use it too. But the world is not yet quite at that stage and I don't want it to get there. Even if the alternatives cause some temporary pain, I will encourage people to use them, because alternatives are important. Of course, I don't support a proprietary StarOffice or WordPerfect format either. I support an open format, but the only one that currently has any user base at all is TeX/LaTeX. If MS Office XP switches to an open XML document format, it will at least allow the possibility for other software to use the same format, and in that case I will wholeheartedly support porting MS Office to FreeBSD (or linux or whatever). I don't support it now because if the current proprietary format becomes widely available on unix, I believe it will kill whatever little choice still exists. I also think you are overestimating "retraining costs". StarOffice or other suites are not that different from MS Office. People with normal intelligence should be able to learn them (and, in fact, they can). If they can't, I'd have doubts about employing them in the first place. > is "a lot of money", while your time is practically worthless, so > 80 hours spent learning TeX costs you less, overall, than buying > the product would. Eventually, you waste much more time doing a large document in a word processor compared to TeX. You may spend 80 hours learning TeX (and scripting), but the knowledge is useful: if you want to do any sort of repetitive work, you can automate it. Most MS Word users, when faced with making a similar sort of change to 20 different documents, will manually do it for each one of them, which can take a couple of hours where a good TeX user could have done it in a minute. > > > usable for shallow programmers of desktop software as, > > > for example, Visual BASIC or Visual C++. > > > > kdevelop? > > Is that the Visual C++ equivalent for FreeBSD, widely hailed by > FreeBSD application developers as such, so that it now costs > next to nothing to hire kids right out of colledge to use it, > without having to spend money to train them on it? > > > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > than average. > > > > I disagree. > > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > stock broker. Yes. So I want to encourage alternatives, not find arguments for perpetuating a monopoly. Your argument is that unless FreeBSD includes a certain feature list, it will not be good enough. My argument is that it is already good enough but lacks enough trained support people for the corporate world. You are backing up your argument, not with examples of how MS Office or Visual C++ is actually superior to some FreeBSD equivalent, but with pointing out how entrenched the MS monopoly is. I'm arguing for trying to overthrow that monopoly. If you admit that the problem is the monopoly, then even if all the FreeBSD features in your wishlist suddenly materialised, you have to admit that we're still no closer to being able to use it in the real world. I don't think the features are the problem at all. We're there already. > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > installation to this day. > > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. Or > you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small closed > shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in The > Real World(tm) Actually it was a home, not a business. And they do use Windows when they have to, but you were originally talking about email MUA's. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 5:43:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04CC37B424 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3ECgA201610; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:42:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:35:40 +0200 To: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:44 AM +0000 4/14/01, Kris Kirby wrote: > This is a damn good case for StarOffice. Too bad they don't have a Mac > port... yet. Mac OS X is out, right? Sun recently announced that StarOffice will never be ported to MacOS X. Instead, they refer people to the OpenOffice.org site that is trying to set up a cross-platform freely available Office implementation, but which right now has nothing but plans and hopes. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 10: 8: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4BE337B43F for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@pc89225.stofanet.dk) Received: (qmail 20096 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Apr 2001 17:08:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:08:07 +0200 From: Morten Liebach To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TeX and LaTeX [WAS: MUA stuff] Message-ID: <20010414190807.A6328@hotpost.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200104140037.RAA25643@avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net> <20010413184931.A4752@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010414125434.C40759@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010414125434.C40759@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:54:34PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14, Apr, 2001 at 12:54:34PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brooks Davis said on Apr 13, 2001 at 18:49:31: > > On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 08:37:13PM -0400, Don Tyson wrote: > > > Agreed -- when you are sending a printed document. But how do you email the TeX > > > document to someone who doesn't have TeX on the other end, much less something to view a > > > PostScript or .dvi document with? > > > > pdflatex Yeah, it's good, though I have experienced a strange problem with the look of the fonts when viewing the .pdf in windows. They look out-of-focus in a way, but they print very well (on the nice HP printers we have at work :-). I really don't know why ... but I have used pdflatex for mailing things to windows users I wanted to look nice, and haven't heard any complaints. > Anyway, most people I've corresponded with can view postscript. Or at > least print it. I personally know of only one windows user that can do that! ;-) > I'm not suggesting it's a serious alternative to MS word for most > people. But several people wrote "there's nothing as good as MS > office". So I was just pointing out that MS Word still lags behind > Knuth's 20 year old program and Lamport's 17 year old macro package > in many respects... Oh yes, I still remember the pain of word and excel for a 90+ pages tecnical report. *ouch!* HAND Morten -- lynx -source http://home1.stofanet.dk/liebach/pgpkey.html | gpg --import - UNIX, reach out and grep someone! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 12:48: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334B837B634 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03607 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:47:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134614.04990d70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:47:38 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: do you know thepayline? In-Reply-To: <36995.813376620364800.31018@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good Lord.... We're getting tons of spam originating from "kornet.net" (apparently a Korean outfit) this weekend. Not just on the lists, but every which way. We're getting ready to blackhole their domains and IPs. --Brett At 04:31 AM 4/14/2001, nonicamp@mail.kornet.net wrote: >do you know thepayline? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 12:50:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE0C37B449 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03621; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:49:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134832.0499ff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:49:12 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Kris Kirby , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20010414134247.E40759@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:42 AM 4/14/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >And what would you call the Windows registry? > >The only thing people can do if the registry is damaged is reinstall >everything. That's always an option on any operating system, but >(except in some bizarre situation) you never have to resort to that on >FreeBSD. The Windows Registry is an abomination. It puts all of a system's eggs in one fragile, insecure basket. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 12:52:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F350837B443 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 10203 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Apr 2001 19:52:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:52:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Kris Kirby , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134832.0499ff00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As time has gone by the Registry has become (little by little) more dependable. People who don't regularly export their registry (by the same token, people who don't back up /etc often) are taking the chance, any NT administrator who _doesn't_ know that, should _not_ have that job. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:42 AM 4/14/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >And what would you call the Windows registry? > > > >The only thing people can do if the registry is damaged is reinstall > >everything. That's always an option on any operating system, but > >(except in some bizarre situation) you never have to resort to that on > >FreeBSD. > > The Windows Registry is an abomination. It puts all of a system's > eggs in one fragile, insecure basket. > > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 12:59:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5D737B43E for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3EJxce28755; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 07:59:39 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104141959.f3EJxce28755@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Brett Glass Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:59:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: do you know thepayline? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134614.04990d70@localhost> References: <36995.813376620364800.31018@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org if you've already grabbed their details, how about pasting to us please? On 14 Apr 2001, at 13:47, Brett Glass wrote: > Good Lord.... We're getting tons of spam originating from > "kornet.net" (apparently a Korean outfit) this weekend. > Not just on the lists, but every which way. We're getting > ready to blackhole their domains and IPs. > > --Brett > > At 04:31 AM 4/14/2001, nonicamp@mail.kornet.net wrote: > > >do you know thepayline? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 13:36:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6268A37B619 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3EKZJG13255; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134832.0499ff00@localhost> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Chip Wiegand , Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Apr-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:42 AM 4/14/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >>And what would you call the Windows registry? >> >>The only thing people can do if the registry is damaged is reinstall >>everything. That's always an option on any operating system, but >>(except in some bizarre situation) you never have to resort to that on >>FreeBSD. > > The Windows Registry is an abomination. It puts all of a system's > eggs in one fragile, insecure basket. s/Windows Registry/netinfo database/, s/Windows Registry/\/etc directory/, etc. The whole system is a fragile basket. This is why we have the nifty feature known as 'backups'. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 13:42:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8AD37B625 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04023; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:42:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414142707.00e1ccb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:41:58 -0600 To: dan@langille.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: do you know thepayline? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200104141959.f3EJxce28755@ns1.unixathome.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134614.04990d70@localhost> <36995.813376620364800.31018@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you can read Hangul, you can find a lot of information at http://www.kornet.net. I can't, so I tried e-mailing complaints through abuse.net. No response. So, I went back to APNIC to see what I could find out about the netblocks where the spams originated. Here's what I got: whois -h whois.apnic.net 168.126.72.70 % Rights restricted by copyright. See http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html inetnum: 168.126.0.0 - 168.126.255.255 netname: KORNET descr: Korea Telecom Research Center descr: Computer Network Section descr: 17 Umyun-dong, Seocho-gu descr: Seoul, 137-140 country: KR admin-c: JP119 tech-c: JP119 notify: dbmon@apnic.net changed: hostmaster@apnic.net 940420 source: APNIC person: Jaeyoung Park address: Korea Telecom Research Center address: Computer Network Section address: 17 Umyun-dong, Seocho-gu address: Seoul, 137-140 address: KR phone: +82-3-526-5233 e-mail: young@tao.kotel.co.kr nic-hdl: JP119 notify: dbmon@apnic.net mnt-by: MAINT-NULL changed: hostmaster@apnic.net 19940420 source: APNIC whois -h whois.apnic.net 211.217.77.46 % Rights restricted by copyright. See http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html inetnum: 211.217.0.0 - 211.225.255.255 netname: KORNET descr: KOREA TELECOM descr: KOREA TELECOM Internet Operating Center country: KR admin-c: GP33-AP tech-c: WK44-AP mnt-by: MNT-KRNIC-AP changed: hostmaster@apnic.net 20000912 source: APNIC person: Gilsoon Park address: Central Data Communication O&M Office, address: 128 Yeong-Dong Jongro-Ku Seoul phone: +82-2-766-1407 fax-no: +82-2-766-6007 country: KR e-mail: gspark@rms.kornet.net nic-hdl: GP33-AP mnt-by: MNT-KRNIC-AP changed: hostmaster@nic.or.kr 20000830 source: APNIC person: Won Kang address: Central Data Communication O&M Office, 128 Yeong-Dong Jongro-Ku Seoul phone: +82-2-766-5902 fax-no: +82-2-766-5901 country: KR e-mail: kw627@soback.kornet.net nic-hdl: WK44-AP mnt-by: MNT-KRNIC-AP changed: hostmaster@nic.or.kr 20000830 source: APNIC whois -h whois.apnic.net 61.33.22.66 % Rights restricted by copyright. See http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html inetnum: 61.33.22.0 - 61.33.22.127 netname: KOREASOFT4001607D descr: KOREASOFT country: KR admin-c: KL233-AP tech-c: DB50-AP notify: b4001607@users.bora.net mnt-by: MAINT-KR-DACOM changed: b4001607@users.bora.net 20010327 source: APNIC role: DACOM BORANET address: DACOM Bldg., 706-1, Yoeksam-dong, Kangnam-ku, Seoul phone: +82-2-6220-7755 fax-no: +82-2-6220-0312 e-mail: ipadm@nic.bora.net admin-c: SK91-AP tech-c: TH45-AP tech-c: CJS3-AP tech-c: PHS1-AP tech-c: WSH3-AP tech-c: HEK1-AP nic-hdl: DB50-AP remarks: IP address administrator group of NIC team, DACOM Corp. notify: ipadm@nic.bora.net mnt-by: MAINT-KR-DACOM changed: ipadm@nic.bora.net 20001106 source: APNIC person: Kilhoon Lee address: 823 21 Yuksam-1dong Kangnam-gu address: SEOUL Korea phone: +82-2-6240-3153 country: KR e-mail: b4001607@users.bora.net nic-hdl: KL233-AP mnt-by: MAINT-KR-DACOM changed: b4001607@users.bora.net 20010327 source: APNIC These WHOIS entries at least give some addresses for complaints, and if you follow up on the APNIC handles for the contacts you'll get more. I figure we'll have to block, though, so we're already preparing to enter the domains into our access_db files and the netblocks into our router. Spammers seem to be relying upon language barriers to make followups difficult. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 13:42:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40E5A37B50C for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:42:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 21422 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Apr 2001 20:42:23 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:42:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: John Baldwin Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes but if it's done in Windows(tm) it's a Bad Thing (sm), however when a Unix does it, moreover, FreeBSD, it's known as centralising configuration. As some people may recall, .ini files used to be the Big Thing (tm) for Windows(tm) configuration settings, Microsoft(r?) decided that they should centralise configuration for 1) Standardisation 2) Ease of backup/restoration 3) Possibly other reasons? Imagine having to do this to back up configuration: find / -name '*.conf' -exec cp {} /backup/ ';' And then imagine restoring everything to its proper home. And then imagine all the files you missed because application X decided it didn't want to name its files with .conf, X11 comes to mind. Anyway, it isn't bad, it's a good, efficient idea, or at least, the best one someone's found that I know of, or at least, that Microsoft/Unix/Apple would care to use. (Apologies if someone wanted this _direct_ to them, but at this point it isn't a direct response to all of those people, and I know personally I don't always like 2 copies of every message related to something I commented on somewhere a long time ago.) /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 14-Apr-01 Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:42 AM 4/14/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > >>And what would you call the Windows registry? > >> > >>The only thing people can do if the registry is damaged is reinstall > >>everything. That's always an option on any operating system, but > >>(except in some bizarre situation) you never have to resort to that on > >>FreeBSD. > > > > The Windows Registry is an abomination. It puts all of a system's > > eggs in one fragile, insecure basket. > > s/Windows Registry/netinfo database/, s/Windows Registry/\/etc directory/, etc. > The whole system is a fragile basket. This is why we have the nifty feature > known as 'backups'. > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 14:15: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 863D037B440 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:15:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 39634 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2001 21:15:02 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15064.48598.415646.715767@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:15:02 -0500 To: Joseph Mallett Cc: John Baldwin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett types: > Yes but if it's done in Windows(tm) it's a Bad Thing (sm), however when a > Unix does it, moreover, FreeBSD, it's known as centralising configuration. And if it's done on Unix (tm) the way it's done on Windows (tm), it's still a Bad Thing (sm). The problem with the registry isn't that it's a central repository. There are two problems with the implementation. The first problem is that *everything* is in it, including information critical to booting the system. If that's sufficiently screwed up, you can't get the system to a point where you can use the tools required for dealing with it's binary format running to fix things. That leaves you SOL. I could, similarly, put all the Unix config files in an SQL database. If the system got so fried I couldn't start the database, I'd be in a *bad* way. Having everything in flat text files may not be as convenient, but it means I can fix the things with nothing more than a statically linked copy of ed. > Imagine having to do this to back up configuration: > find / -name '*.conf' -exec cp {} /backup/ ';' > And then imagine restoring everything to its proper home. > And then imagine all the files you missed because application X decided it > didn't want to name its files with .conf, X11 comes to mind. Yup - having a lot of undocumented .ini files that you frob with point-n-click tools is bad becase, as you so aptly illustrated, you don't know where they are because you normally use the point-n-click tools to edit them. This makes them hard to find to fix if things are broken to the point the that those tools aren't working. The Registry has replaced those files with a bunch of undocumented registry variables that have the same problems, with the added problem that you can break things so badly that you can't edit them even if you know where they are. The config files on Unix have or at least can be - horror of horrors - edited by hand. As a result, every configuration file on all my unix systems is either in the state it was installed in, or backed up in my perforce server. The exception is the password file, and the crontab files in /var/cron, because those break don't follow that rule. While some people call the results of hiding the information you need to fix things behind GUI interfaces "user-friendly", I'd say that "idiot-friendly" is more appropriate, as it assumes the user is an idiot who can't fix things anyway. I don't think the public is that stupid, and even if I'm wrong, hiding that information from users who aren't idiots isn't friendly to those users. > Anyway, it isn't bad, it's a good, efficient idea, or at least, the best > one someone's found that I know of, or at least, that Microsoft/Unix/Apple > would care to use. Yup, it's a good, efficient idea. It's the MS implementation that's FUBAR. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 14:34:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7184E37B507 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:34:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 50241 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2001 21:34:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:34:44 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 6:44 AM +0000 4/14/01, Kris Kirby wrote: > > This is a damn good case for StarOffice. Too bad they don't have a Mac > > port... yet. Mac OS X is out, right? > Sun recently announced that StarOffice will never be ported to > MacOS X. Instead, they refer people to the OpenOffice.org site that > is trying to set up a cross-platform freely available Office > implementation, but which right now has nothing but plans and hopes. According to the FAQ on StarOffice became OpenOffice. "All of the StarOFfice source code is available ... ". While complaining that you'd rather have a product than source that someone might port, would you also complain if Sun did the port and then charged for it while giving away the Linux version for free? After all, there's not a lot of incentive to port a product with an expected gross sales of $0. While Terry is right that the best way into the Unix desktop market is to have a dekstop that acts exactly like Windows - which StarOffice provides - this strikes me as a really silly thing. Sort of like adding a daemon that reboots the system every ~47 days in order to break into the Windows server market. If I didn't want a desktop environment that's better than Windows, I'd just run Windows. If I really wanted an office suite that looked like Windows on a Unix desktop, I'd just access Windows via vnc. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 15:32:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B79137B42C for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83970 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:39:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:38:57 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: saving configs [was: MUA's seen in the lists] Message-ID: <20010415083855.Y4964@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Joseph Mallett on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:42:23PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:42:23PM -0400, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > Imagine having to do this to back up configuration: > find / -name '*.conf' -exec cp {} /backup/ ';' > And then imagine restoring everything to its proper home. > And then imagine all the files you missed because application X decided it > didn't want to name its files with .conf, X11 comes to mind. That'd be pretty futile. I run a script from cron that archives all of the important config files, plus a few reports and a listing of the contents of those archives showing the original paths. This can run daily 12 hours from backup time, or occasionally for a static home machine. It is NOT a substitute for backing up, but a more quickly accessed copy of the files for a quick restore if one of them gets hosed. (Ever had a server down while someone farts around with a tape to restore a 2k file? Broke your fstab or password file at 5pm, or lost today's new virtual domains setups? Discovered that the assistants haven't been using RCS like they promised?) It's a wonderful resource if you ever want to build the whole machine from scratch, e.g. on new hardware with a very different version of FreeBSD plus a good dose of hindsight. You know that all the info you need is in there, except the actual data -- no searching or head-scratching required. These archives fit onto one floppy disk (two for the slow 386 where I want the current built kernel as well). I use zip and put them on DOS-formatted floppies, so that individual files can be extracted, viewed, printed, copied to another floppy, from almost any old Macintosh, OS/2, VMS, Unix, DOS, or even MS-Widows machine. For a simple setup you can just copy the files and still fit them all on a floppy. They are easy to transport off site (a quick scp to somewhere secure, or mail two disks in a regular envelope) and are so easy to make you'll have enough not to worry about unreliability of the media. Store one diskette every month or two for a compact history of the machine's configs. I'm surprised that others don't do something similar. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 15:37:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A045D37B618 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 21044 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Apr 2001 22:37:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:37:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: saving configs [was: MUA's seen in the lists] In-Reply-To: <20010415083855.Y4964@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I do. I have a job cronned to tar up /etc and /var daily, not only that but it copies it to two seperate partitions (in case I accidentally rm a directory) and it's small enough for a floppy, but I usually just scp all the files (they're datestamped, so I don't just have _one_ file) to a seperate server. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:42:23PM -0400, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > > > Imagine having to do this to back up configuration: > > find / -name '*.conf' -exec cp {} /backup/ ';' > > And then imagine restoring everything to its proper home. > > And then imagine all the files you missed because application X decided it > > didn't want to name its files with .conf, X11 comes to mind. > > That'd be pretty futile. I run a script from cron that archives all of > the important config files, plus a few reports and a listing of the > contents of those archives showing the original paths. This can run > daily 12 hours from backup time, or occasionally for a static home machine. > > It is NOT a substitute for backing up, but a more quickly accessed copy > of the files for a quick restore if one of them gets hosed. (Ever had a > server down while someone farts around with a tape to restore a 2k > file? Broke your fstab or password file at 5pm, or lost today's new > virtual domains setups? Discovered that the assistants haven't been > using RCS like they promised?) It's a wonderful resource if you ever > want to build the whole machine from scratch, e.g. on new hardware with > a very different version of FreeBSD plus a good dose of hindsight. You > know that all the info you need is in there, except the actual data -- > no searching or head-scratching required. > > These archives fit onto one floppy disk (two for the slow 386 where I > want the current built kernel as well). I use zip and put them on > DOS-formatted floppies, so that individual files can be extracted, > viewed, printed, copied to another floppy, from almost any old > Macintosh, OS/2, VMS, Unix, DOS, or even MS-Widows machine. For a > simple setup you can just copy the files and still fit them all on a > floppy. > > They are easy to transport off site (a quick scp to somewhere secure, > or mail two disks in a regular envelope) and are so easy to make you'll > have enough not to worry about unreliability of the media. Store one > diskette every month or two for a compact history of the machine's configs. > > I'm surprised that others don't do something similar. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 14 16:18:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5147837B446 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:18:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05097; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:17:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414171226.045a54c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:17:17 -0600 To: Joseph Mallett From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Kris Kirby , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134832.0499ff00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:52 PM 4/14/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >As time has gone by the Registry has become (little by little) more >dependable. Not in my experience. When I debug problems on Windows clients, I find the Registry to be a more and more tangled web. Subtle problems and omissions can make the entire system unstable, and there is NO usable reference to the records and fields within it. It's a nightmare. Interestingly, Microsoft is now trying to extend the horrible mess to the entire Net via its "Passport" repository, where it generously offers to keep all of your private, personal information for you. I'm not even going to comment on what Microsoft -- being the pristine, supremely ethical company that it is (Not!), might do with that data. >People who don't regularly export their registry (by the same >token, people who don't back up /etc often) are taking the chance, any NT >administrator who _doesn't_ know that, should _not_ have that job. Exporting the Registry often does not help. The interactions between entries are subtle and are the result of accumulated changes. Configuration information should be carefully partitioned into separate databases for different applications, users, and system components. Putting it all in one place is a nightmare. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message