From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 4:20:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A0837B432 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 04:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15l7J8-000D4b-00; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:20:22 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15l7JD-00005v-00; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:20:27 +0100 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:20:27 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: jason Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010923122027.A270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net>; from kib@mediaone.net on Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:43:28PM -0400 X-Scanner: exiscan *15l7J8-000D4b-00*$AK$ldfQC8hswj27uWie/ynWD1* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 23, jason wrote: > Why would we support Bin Laden when he has hated the US for some many years? > We did support Suddam at one point only because or Iran. I can't recall any > one time where the US had any interest in training or helping Bin Laden's > group. > Name one. I knew CNN was bad, but I didn't think they would have missed out that helpful detail. I want you to go and type 'Bin Laden American backing' into a search engine. Google would be good. I'll summarise here. A lot of this info is from the BBC, but I would strongly recommend you all to take a look at: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CH0109C.html Laden got 'started' when the Soviets were trying to take Afghanistan (one of the reasons that Russia is supporting current US action is probably that they are looking forward to seeing the Afghans who kept them out for 10 year get their butts kicked). Not suprisingly, the US were keen to support any action against the Soviet action - to the point that by 1987 they were shipping 65,000 tons of weapons a year. Bin Laden setup his training camps under the collective title of al-Qaeda (Arabic for "the base") and was responsible for no small part of the Afghan jihad. The Afghan jihad against the Soviets was backed with American dollars and fully supported by the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. It was the fact that Saudi and the US refused to admit that it was Bin Laden who succeeded when the Soviets withdrew, he became disillusioned. As a result, he focused his attentions on the US and her Middle East allies (Saudi, for example). He had his bank accounts frozen and citizenship stripped for anti-Government activities in Saudi and after reconciliation failed, and that's where this hatred all started. As he became more distant, he became more militant and hated the US more and more... So, the reason he hates the US is because they pretended he didn't exist after he had done the dirty work for them. Please don't see this as me supporting him - his actions are ridiculous, and he does need punishing. I just want people to know that the US government's hands are not entirely clean in this matter. > The IRA as far as I know didn't knowck over any US buildings. Although UK > has to deal with that sort of thing the same way we deal with out own > internal terrorist. I think we all remember Okalahoma City. The UK goverment or public did not financially support the bombing at Oklahoma City. The US public have supported the actions of the IRA, and US senators have publically given support, as well as Clinton permitting a visa for Jerry Adams who came to the US on a fund-raiser for what was effectively the IRA, even though the UK pleaded that this should not be allowed. We're quite able to deal with internal terrorism. My point was that the US public is prepared to support that action. We *could* say that the US has to deal with the current problem on their own and they are over-reacting, but we don't. You really need to open up your world view a little bit. > He is not doing it for the approval rating as much as he is doing it because > the vast majority of Americans will demand it. His approval rating will go > up by doing what the citizens think he should do in this situation. So > basically he is doing what he was elected to do. 1. He wasn't elected 2. President's shouldn't do what is popular - they should so what is right 3. The 'vast majority' of Americans believe what they do because the US media is sufficiently slanted to make them believe what is required. By your own posting, you implicitly admit that you don't know anything about Osama bin Laden, you don't really understand how the Taliban got where they are, you don't understand terrorism or how it's funded and you probably only know what you've been told by CNN. What on earth makes you think you, and the rest of the US, is in a position therefore, to decide as to what action should be taken? You only have half the facts! > Some terrorists have announced attacks before but most wait until after. It > depends on the demands of the terrorists and the target of the attack. The > US has attacked without warning and with warning. Compare Iraq bombing > (before ground war) and the bombing of Libya. The presence of forewarning > has nothing to do with it being a terrorist attack or a retaliation. You'd best tell your President that then, as he seems to differ in his opinion on that... -- PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 4:34:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC8637B430 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 04:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15l7Ww-000D7F-00; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:34:38 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15l7X1-00006P-00; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:34:43 +0100 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:34:43 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: jason Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Technical Information Subject: Re: What is it good for? (was "Helping Victims of Terror") Message-ID: <20010923123443.B270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922153752.017f8b18@threespace.com> <024601c143d4$37253e80$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <024601c143d4$37253e80$89941bd8@speakeasy.net>; from kib@mediaone.net on Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:05:25PM -0400 X-Scanner: exiscan *15l7Ww-000D7F-00*$AK$oWFSsouSChxPJsS/SAPQi0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 23, jason wrote: > I agree with you in most parts but think I should correct you on one point. Be prepared to be corrected yourself then. > Usama Bin Laden is not a citizen of Afghanistan. He is from Saudi Arabia. ... where he had his citizenship stripped ... > The reason he is pissed off at America is because Saudi allowed our troops > into the some Islamic Holy city (forget the name) back during the > Iraq/Kuwait deal. No, that is about 1% of the reason he's pissed off. It's the reason the US government are giving out, becuase they don't want to have to discuss covert CIA operations that involved him. Elsewhere on this list I've given a better briefing, but I'll just point out again: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CH0109C.html Then you might understand why he's pissed off. He still needs punishing, his actions are still wrong, but they are in part, provoked. > And according to the FBI 10 most wanted list, his name is Usama not > Osama...just found that out minutes ago. In that case the FBI are wrong. It may be pronounced Usama, but Osama is a far more common name in Saudi. DYOR. You have the Internet at your disposal and I'm sure you're able to find out how his name is spelt without having to resort to relying on the FBI. :-) At the moment, I have to say, I am astounded that so many intelligent people on this list have swallowed the official line without having done some research themselves. You're all better than this, and instead of jsut quoting mass media use the tools at your disposal and that one thing you must have that caused you to choose FreeBSD - a large and above average intelligence - and make your own descisions. Challenge your leaders, and your media, to answer the questions that fall in front of you. And after all that you're likely to come to one of the following conclusions: 1. Let's bomb them anyway 2. Let's try and talk our way out of this 3. We deserved it I go for option number two myself, but can understand both options one and three and why people would consider them ideal. -- PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 4:40:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C846637B428 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 04:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03AD1D162; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:40:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:40:32 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: Paul Robinson , jason Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Technical Information Subject: Re: What is it good for? (was "Helping Victims of Terror") Message-ID: <1305300000.1001245232@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010923123443.B270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922153752.017f8b18@threespace.com> <024601c143d4$37253e80$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <20010923123443.B270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In that case the FBI are wrong. It may be pronounced Usama, but Osama is a > far more common name in Saudi. DYOR. You have the Internet at your > disposal and I'm sure you're able to find out how his name is spelt > without having to resort to relying on the FBI. :-) All other points aside, I wouldn't get too caught up in an argument about the spelling of his name. It's difficult to convert Arabic names into English. The Taliban for instance is spelled Teleban by the Times. The problem is that an English approximation is made to how it sounds in Arabic and that's not always agreed upon. There is not a standard system for converting Arabic words into English spellings as far as I know. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 9: 2:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168DC37B416 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010923160221.JNYM4043.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:21 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010923113544.02267538@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:46:04 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <1220300000.1001212050@lobster.originative.co.uk> References: <3BAD1D06.6E56344F@mindspring.com> <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <948140000.1001159802@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAD1D06.6E56344F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:27 PM 9/22/2001, Paul Richards wrote: > > What if the residents are provably involved, and the country is > > unwilling to permit extradition? > >Then you live with it. Just like the UK lived with the fact that the >Locherbie bombers were resident in Libya. You pursue many avenues to try >and bring them to justice but you don't go declaring war on them. > >It's the attitude that the US has that suggests that the solution is to go >and invade and teach the world a lesson. That's actually not very civilised >at all. Maybe you "live with it" if you don't have the means to prevent it, but that's not the way that the U.S. is going to handle it. Afghanistan has sat idly by providing bin Laden with a comfortable place to plan and launch his cowardly attacks against U.S. citizens, and now that their complicity has landed them at the blunt end of non-negotiable U.S. demands, they want to cry foul. As the old saying goes "Don't provoke a bear in its den." --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 9: 2:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD36337B41C for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010923160222.JNYO4043.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:22 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010923115020.02266ce0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:55:01 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: What is it good for? (was "Helping Victims of Terror") In-Reply-To: <20010923123443.B270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <024601c143d4$37253e80$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010922153752.017f8b18@threespace.com> <024601c143d4$37253e80$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:34 AM 9/23/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: >http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CH0109C.html > >Then you might understand why he's pissed off. He still needs punishing, his >actions are still wrong, but they are in part, provoked. As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line that we agree upon is "his actions are still wrong" and "he still needs punishing." And since the U.S. believes we have the means to punish him, why are you so upset over our current stance? >Challenge your leaders, and >your media, to answer the questions that fall in front of you. And after all >that you're likely to come to one of the following conclusions: > >1. Let's bomb them anyway >2. Let's try and talk our way out of this >3. We deserved it > >I go for option number two myself, but can understand both options one and >three and why people would consider them ideal. We're involved in doing number two right now, so again I don't understand what your real complaint is. And I can't understand what feeling, compassionate human being can possibly say that such an atrocity was "deserved" outside a time of explicit war. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 9: 2:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF44C37B421 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010923160223.JNYS4043.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:23 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010923115617.021b1bd0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:00:20 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:15 PM 9/22/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: >Even Bush isn't stupid enough to piss off the EU countries, the UN security >council and NATO. This *is* about internal politics - Bush is attempting to >do what his father did (who in turn learnt from Margaret Thatcher) by >engaging in a war that is positive from a publicity point of view. All this >makes him look good with the electorate. Yes, I am cynical enough to believe >that is his primary motive - he knows he is now far more popular than he was >before the 11th September, and the reason he is popular is because he now >has the oppurtunity to push the right buttons... Every nation's media is slanted generally pervasive enough to sway public opinion, so I don't think that U.S. citizens are at any particular disadvantage here. And cynicism notwithstanding, could it be that the majority of our people really believe that retaliation is within our rights? That they support our President simply because his own actions fall in line with their believe of what should be done. You credit us with having above average intelligence and then claim that we're behaving like sheep just because we agree with our country's official position. Perhaps we're not being influenced by our government; instead, we're influencing it. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 9:20:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5575337B42B for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 38821 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2001 16:20:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mgm) ([216.27.148.137]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Sep 2001 16:20:25 -0000 Message-ID: <037201c1444b$b6299920$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Reply-To: "jason" From: "jason" To: "Paul Robinson" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" , "Stephen Hurd" , "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <20010923122027.A270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:20:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just an small observation Paul, did you know that ever message you send appears twice in the FreeBSD mailing list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Robinson" To: "jason" Cc: "Terry Lambert" ; "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" ; "Stephen Hurd" ; "Technical Information" ; "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror > On Sep 23, jason wrote: > > > Why would we support Bin Laden when he has hated the US for some many years? > > We did support Suddam at one point only because or Iran. I can't recall any > > one time where the US had any interest in training or helping Bin Laden's > > group. > > Name one. > > I knew CNN was bad, but I didn't think they would have missed out that > helpful detail. I want you to go and type 'Bin Laden American backing' into > a search engine. Google would be good. I'll summarise here. > > A lot of this info is from the BBC, but I would strongly recommend you all > to take a look at: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CH0109C.html > > Laden got 'started' when the Soviets were trying to take Afghanistan (one of > the reasons that Russia is supporting current US action is probably that > they are looking forward to seeing the Afghans who kept them out for 10 year > get their butts kicked). Not suprisingly, the US were keen to support any > action against the Soviet action - to the point that by 1987 they were > shipping 65,000 tons of weapons a year. Bin Laden setup his training camps > under the collective title of al-Qaeda (Arabic for "the base") and was > responsible for no small part of the Afghan jihad. The Afghan jihad against > the Soviets was backed with American dollars and fully supported by the > governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. > > It was the fact that Saudi and the US refused to admit that it was Bin Laden > who succeeded when the Soviets withdrew, he became disillusioned. As a > result, he focused his attentions on the US and her Middle East allies > (Saudi, for example). He had his bank accounts frozen and citizenship > stripped for anti-Government activities in Saudi and after reconciliation > failed, and that's where this hatred all started. As he became more distant, > he became more militant and hated the US more and more... > > So, the reason he hates the US is because they pretended he didn't exist > after he had done the dirty work for them. Please don't see this as me > supporting him - his actions are ridiculous, and he does need punishing. I > just want people to know that the US government's hands are not entirely > clean in this matter. > > > The IRA as far as I know didn't knowck over any US buildings. Although UK > > has to deal with that sort of thing the same way we deal with out own > > internal terrorist. I think we all remember Okalahoma City. > > The UK goverment or public did not financially support the bombing at > Oklahoma City. The US public have supported the actions of the IRA, and US > senators have publically given support, as well as Clinton permitting a visa > for Jerry Adams who came to the US on a fund-raiser for what was effectively > the IRA, even though the UK pleaded that this should not be allowed. > > We're quite able to deal with internal terrorism. My point was that the US > public is prepared to support that action. We *could* say that the US has to > deal with the current problem on their own and they are over-reacting, but > we don't. You really need to open up your world view a little bit. > > > He is not doing it for the approval rating as much as he is doing it because > > the vast majority of Americans will demand it. His approval rating will go > > up by doing what the citizens think he should do in this situation. So > > basically he is doing what he was elected to do. > > 1. He wasn't elected > 2. President's shouldn't do what is popular - they should so what is right > 3. The 'vast majority' of Americans believe what they do because the US > media is sufficiently slanted to make them believe what is required. > > By your own posting, you implicitly admit that you don't know anything about > Osama bin Laden, you don't really understand how the Taliban got where they > are, you don't understand terrorism or how it's funded and you probably only > know what you've been told by CNN. What on earth makes you think you, and > the rest of the US, is in a position therefore, to decide as to what action > should be taken? You only have half the facts! > > > Some terrorists have announced attacks before but most wait until after. It > > depends on the demands of the terrorists and the target of the attack. The > > US has attacked without warning and with warning. Compare Iraq bombing > > (before ground war) and the bombing of Libya. The presence of forewarning > > has nothing to do with it being a terrorist attack or a retaliation. > > You'd best tell your President that then, as he seems to differ in his > opinion on that... > > -- > PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 10: 3:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8A437B414 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f8NH30q11343; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:03:02 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1305300000.1001245232@lobster.originative.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922153752.017f8b18@threespace.com> <024601c143d4$37253e80$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <20010923123443.B270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <1305300000.1001245232@lobster.originative.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:43:29 +0200 To: Paul Richards , Paul Robinson , jason From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: What is it good for? (was "Helping Victims of Terror") Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Technical Information Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:40 PM +0100 9/23/01, Paul Richards wrote: > It's difficult to convert Arabic names into English. The Taliban for > instance is spelled Teleban by the Times. The problem is that an English > approximation is made to how it sounds in Arabic and that's not always > agreed upon. There is not a standard system for converting Arabic words > into English spellings as far as I know. This is a problem when translating most any name from most any language into most any other. My Political Science teacher in college (who spoke/wrote something like five different languages, most of them related to Polish or Russian) told the following story: In Russian, the native spellings for both Chekov and Tchaikovsky have the same initial character. However, Tchaikovsky was first translated into German and then into English, and when the Germans hear that name, they "see" a "tch". Contrariwise, Chekov was translated directly from Russian to English, and most native english speakers see only a "ch" when they hear that sound. Same for translating English names into other languages. When Russians hear the name "George", they see a "Dg" as the initial characters. This caused no end of confusion for my PolySci teacher as he was doing research in Moscow, and kept reading their writings about some "D. Washington" guy who was apparently the founder of the US. It took him a little while to make the connection. Getting back to the topic at hand, regardless of how the name is spelled in English by native speakers of Farsi (or whatever the language is over in that region), I heard an interview on CNN a few days ago with a guy from Pakistan who kept pronouncing the name closer to "Ozz-mah" rather than "Oh-sah-mah". The same goes for the spellings and pronunciation of the names of cities. For example, it may be spelled "Budapest", but the proper pronunciation is closer to "Boo-dah-pesht". So, which is correct? The spoken version or the written version? And in what language? If you ever want to get into a spelling flame, this is a really good rathole to drag things down into. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 12:37:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 640EE37B407; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id f8NJbTY20863; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:37:29 +0200 (MEST) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/6) with ESMTP id f8NJbTc20859; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:37:29 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27956; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:37:27 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6339F14B7C; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:37:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:37:26 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ~/.login_conf disabling exact reasons wanted Message-ID: <20010923213726.A20171@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20010922151107.C7524@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <20010922120739E.jkh@freebsd.org> <20010923133859.A10592@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <20010923105544R.jkh@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010923105544R.jkh@freebsd.org>; from jkh@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:55:44AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Jordan Hubbard (jkh@FreeBSD.org): > > Yes, I do, but FreeBSD was 4.4 even before it was fixed. > FreeBSD wasn't 4.4 until it was released and all the tag sliding was > over with. Ok, officially. However, I've read FreeBSD-4.4(-PRERELEASE) since August 01, and 4.4-RC since mid-August. That's a lot "4.4" :-) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 13: 3: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E4937B409 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.134.152.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.134.152]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00270; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:03:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jason Cc: Paul Robinson , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jason wrote: > > > Yes, Iraq is a state that is known to sponsor terrorism. > > > > So is the USA - god knows how many operations the CIA have backed, > > involving everything from drug smuggling through to terrorism. In > > fact, they gave Laden his weaponary and training in the first > > place. As I've stated It is illegal for the C.I.A. to do most of these things these days. It takes an act of Congress to authorize an assasination, and we are not permitted to use "unsavory characters" as field assets. People who paranoidly complain that every little thing that doesn't go their way is the result of C.I.A. intervention really don't know what's going on or not. The U.S. is much more likely to stage something like Grenada or Nicaragua these days, than to do something covert. > Why would we support Bin Laden when he has hated the US for > some many years? When the Soviet Union was intact, and they were invading Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden was one of the leaders of the resistance (following being disowned by his family in Saudi Arabia, and his exile from that country -- he is a Saudi Arabian citizen, not an Afghani citizen). The U.S. supplied arms to these resistance groups in order to oppose the spread of Communism (the same reason that the U.S. involved itself in Vietnam, after the situation there fell apart on the French colonial failure). Among these arms were shoulder launched surface to air Stinger missles, which were used to attack Soviet Hind Helicopters. > We did support Suddam at one point only because or Iran. I can't recall any > one time where the US had any interest in training or helping Bin Laden's > group. > Name one. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. > > elsewhere, certain portions of the US population don't seem to have a > > problem with the IRA either. > > The IRA as far as I know didn't knowck over any US buildings. Although UK > has to deal with that sort of thing the same way we deal with out own > internal terrorist. I think we all remember Okalahoma City. Yes. The IRA is not an apt analogy to the group which attacked the U.S. in this case. > > Even Bush isn't stupid enough to piss off the EU countries, > > the UN security council and NATO. Frankly, direct military action against the U.S. would not be fruitful. Similarly, and embargo against the U.S. would starve many countries, and so is similarly, not fruitful. > > > Bombing is _nothing_ compared to the other extreme options > > > available. > > > > See above. Bush knows, and more importantly his advisors know that if gets > > to that point, he has a problem with the whole of the UN. The US might be > > big, but it's not big enough to avoid getting into the shit. > > Unless we plan to take on the rest of the world I think the US would be best > adviced to not consider those other "extreme options available". This will > probably be handled in a more conventional mannor or warfare. If this goes to a 10 year war, the information we have obtained from the human genome project could offer a tempting solution; one would hope that we could resist the expediency, but, of course, the option now exists. This is a minor aspect of what I hinted at when I pointed out that we have more than half a century of technological improvement since the atomic bomb, and that there are other extreme options available. Realize that if it comes down to the continued existance of our democracy, the U.S. will use all means at its disposal. I'm really surprised that people have not learned this from the lessons of the cold war, where the only thing that prevented an active conflict was the doctorine of Mutual Assured Destruction. During the cold war, both sides were willing to take the entire planet with them, rather than yield to their enemy. > > > You have a lot of terrorists claiming credit before the act > > > over there, do you? It would seem to me with that information, > > > you should be able to prevent the acts. > > Some terrorists have announced attacks before but most wait until after. It > depends on the demands of the terrorists and the target of the attack. The > US has attacked without warning and with warning. Compare Iraq bombing > (before ground war) and the bombing of Libya. The presence of forewarning > has nothing to do with it being a terrorist attack or a retaliation. The U.S. warned in both cases. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 13:14:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7A337B408 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.134.152.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.134.152]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09871; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BAE42B0.C5B5AA4E@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:14:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <948140000.1001159802@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAD1D06.6E56344F@mindspring.com> <1220300000.1001212050@lobster.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > I suggest you look into the issues a little more deeply. The US did nothing > to assist the UK in it's fight against terrorism. It was actually Clinton > that changed US policy to try and broker peace in the province, until that > time the US was assisting the IRA, at least to the extent that it was > allowing it's citizens to support the cause financially. The IRA is a domestic problem, just as the Oklahoma and Atlanta Olympic bombings were domestic problems. I noticed that the U.K. did nothing to aid in those cases to assist the U.S. in its fight against terrorism. Either the U.K. has sovereignty over Ireland, in which case the conflict is internal, or it doesn't, in which case, "the right side" is a matter of debate. > >> Did the UK decide to wage war on innocent countries when faced with > >> such provocation? > > > > You mean like Ireland, for harboring the IRA? That would be a > > "yes". > > That would be no. That's a ludicrous statement to make; the UK never waged > a war against Ireland. Armed British occupation forces? Or, if you prefer, an internal police action. Again, it's an issue of sovereignty. > >> There needs to be a reasoned response to this attack, and declaring war > >> on countries because some of their residents are suspected of being > >> involved is not a reasonable response. It's more a symptom of the > >> foreign policy the US has had for many years which led to the terrorist > >> attack in the first place. i.e. do what we want or we will send the boys > >> around. > > > > What if the residents are provably involved, and the country is > > unwilling to permit extradition? > > Then you live with it. Just like the UK lived with the fact that the > Locherbie bombers were resident in Libya. You pursue many avenues to try > and bring them to justice but you don't go declaring war on them. Or you do something about it. You only "live with it" if the bully is bigger than you, or you can't otherwise defend yourself. > It's the attitude that the US has that suggests that the solution is to go > and invade and teach the world a lesson. That's actually not very civilised > at all. Neither is ramming aircraft into civilian office buildings, which includes the Pentagon; despite its symbolism, many of the people who work there are civilians. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 13:21:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DB537B41A for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA90773; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:21:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: jason , Paul Robinson , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Sep 2001 22:21:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > When the Soviet Union was intact, and they were invading > Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden was one of the leaders of the > resistance (following being disowned by his family in Saudi > Arabia, and his exile from that country -- he is a Saudi > Arabian citizen, not an Afghani citizen). *before* he was disowned and exiled. He returned to Saudi Arabia in the late eighties and worked in his family's construction business until he fled (in 1989, I believe) to escape being arrested for supporting and funding fundamentalist movements in other arab nations. > The U.S. supplied > arms to these resistance groups in order to oppose the spread > of Communism (the same reason that the U.S. involved itself > in Vietnam, after the situation there fell apart on the > French colonial failure). The VC the US fought in Vietnam were not the same VC the French fought when it was still called Indochina. There was a change of leadership and a significant shift in ideology between the two wars. > Realize that if it comes down to the continued existance of our > democracy, the U.S. will use all means at its disposal. The US is not a democracy. It is, at best, a parody of one - but never mind that - even when (if ever) it worked as intended, it never had much in common with a democracy save the name; the principles on which US society and government were built are far closer to technocracy or meritocracy than to democracy. These days, though, it looks more like an oligarchy or some kind of decentralized enlightened monarchy. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 13:42:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E9937B429 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.134.152.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.134.152]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06131; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:42:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: jason , Paul Robinson , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Realize that if it comes down to the continued existance of our > > democracy, the U.S. will use all means at its disposal. > > The US is not a democracy. It is, at best, a parody of one - but > never mind that - even when (if ever) it worked as intended, it never > had much in common with a democracy save the name; the principles on > which US society and government were built are far closer to > technocracy or meritocracy than to democracy. These days, though, it > looks more like an oligarchy or some kind of decentralized enlightened > monarchy. If you want to get technical, the U.S. is a Republic, since the votes for President are made by the Electoral College, and thus the President is not directly elected. This form was necessary historically, since communications and infrastructure were unable to cope with a direct Democracy. These days communications is quick enough, but until we have universal non-repudiation and encryptions, we are still going to be technologically incapable of creating a true Democracy. If you want to get into more details, we can, starting with the bicameral nature of Congress, and the resoning behind the structure threre, and the triumverate formed by the Presidency (Executive), Congress (Legislative), and Courts (Judiciary), and the theory of the "Balance of Power". Really, it has worked remarkably well for the 225 years it has been in power. If you want to get technical, the U.K. government changed from a Monarchy to a Republic in that time, and the German government has turned over at least 4 times, if you count only gross form, and not instances. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 14:36:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB93B37B42B for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781F91D162; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:35:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:35:45 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: jason , Paul Robinson , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <11560000.1001280945@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Sunday, September 23, 2001 13:42:52 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > Really, it has worked remarkably well for the 225 years it > has been in power. If you want to get technical, the U.K. > government changed from a Monarchy to a Republic in that > time, and the German government has turned over at least 4 > times, if you count only gross form, and not instances. I think it will come as a bit of a shock to most people in the UK to find that the UK is a republic. What's the basis for this rather interesting opinion? Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 15: 8:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E891037B408 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9063D1D169; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:07:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:07:49 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <27760000.1001282869@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3BAE42B0.C5B5AA4E@mindspring.com> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <948140000.1001159802@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAD1D06.6E56344F@mindspring.com> <1220300000.1001212050@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAE42B0.C5B5AA4E@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Sunday, September 23, 2001 13:14:40 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > Paul Richards wrote: >> I suggest you look into the issues a little more deeply. The US did >> nothing to assist the UK in it's fight against terrorism. It was >> actually Clinton that changed US policy to try and broker peace in the >> province, until that time the US was assisting the IRA, at least to the >> extent that it was allowing it's citizens to support the cause >> financially. > > The IRA is a domestic problem, just as the Oklahoma and Atlanta > Olympic bombings were domestic problems. How do you reach the conclusion that the IRA was a domestic problem? > I noticed that the U.K. did nothing to aid in those cases to > assist the U.S. in its fight against terrorism. > > Either the U.K. has sovereignty over Ireland, in which case > the conflict is internal, or it doesn't, in which case, "the > right side" is a matter of debate. It's clear from that statement that you don't actually know anything about the Irish situation. However, the telling comment above is that '"the right side" is a matter of debate'. So there are good and bad terrorists then? You're justifying the US' support for the IRA because there's a possibility they were on the right side? >> >> Did the UK decide to wage war on innocent countries when faced with >> >> such provocation? >> > >> > You mean like Ireland, for harboring the IRA? That would be a >> > "yes". >> >> That would be no. That's a ludicrous statement to make; the UK never >> waged a war against Ireland. > > Armed British occupation forces? Or, if you prefer, an > internal police action. Again, it's an issue of sovereignty. I can see why you made such a ludicrous statement now. The island to the West of the UK is actually two countries. Part of it is British and part is Irish; more correctly I think the non-british part should be called Eire but everyone tends to call it Ireland. Ireland is a separate sovereign state, there have been no armed British occupation forces since they achieved independence, likewise there have been no internal police actions. There is absolutely no debate over the sovereignty of Eire. The point I was making was that the UK did not declare war on Eire and has never invaded it, not even with a "police action" or a special services style raiding party. Eire certainly harboured IRA terrorists but for the UK to have reacted like the US is doing and declared Eire to be a legitimate target for military action would have been considered an act of war, i.e. the UK would have been considered to be the agressor in declaring war and not the victim since Eire is not the perpetrator of the crimes. The IRA situation is not an internal British matter like the Oklahoma bombing was. It is analogous to the WTC attack in that a terrorist group has been launching attacks on the UK, killing innocent civilians, and where that terrorist group was based in a foreign country. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 15:19:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D9337B432 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431621D162; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:18:54 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:18:54 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: jason , Paul Robinson Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <39650000.1001283534@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <037201c1444b$b6299920$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <20010923122027.A270@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <037201c1444b$b6299920$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Probably because you're in the CC list. --On Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:20:47 -0400 jason wrote: > Just an small observation > Paul, did you know that ever message you send appears twice in the FreeBSD > mailing list? > Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 19:16:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D668937B420 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.130.19.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.130.19]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8O2G6H20855; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BAE9795.2870115D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:16:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , jason , Paul Robinson , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> <11560000.1001280945@lobster.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > > --On Sunday, September 23, 2001 13:42:52 -0700 Terry Lambert > wrote: > > > Really, it has worked remarkably well for the 225 years it > > has been in power. If you want to get technical, the U.K. > > government changed from a Monarchy to a Republic in that > > time, and the German government has turned over at least 4 > > times, if you count only gross form, and not instances. > > I think it will come as a bit of a shock to most people in the UK to find > that the UK is a republic. > > What's the basis for this rather interesting opinion? Who holds the actual power these days? Are they elected by people who are elected, or are they elected by the general populace? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 19:45:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E2537B40C for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BD31D162; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 03:45:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 03:45:20 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , jason , Paul Robinson , Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <43060000.1001299520@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3BAE9795.2870115D@mindspring.com> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> <11560000.1001280945@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAE9795.2870115D@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Sunday, September 23, 2001 19:16:53 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > Paul Richards wrote: >> >> --On Sunday, September 23, 2001 13:42:52 -0700 Terry Lambert >> wrote: >> >> > Really, it has worked remarkably well for the 225 years it >> > has been in power. If you want to get technical, the U.K. >> > government changed from a Monarchy to a Republic in that >> > time, and the German government has turned over at least 4 >> > times, if you count only gross form, and not instances. >> >> I think it will come as a bit of a shock to most people in the UK to find >> that the UK is a republic. >> >> What's the basis for this rather interesting opinion? > > Who holds the actual power these days? > > Are they elected by people who are elected, or are they > elected by the general populace? The UK is still a monarchy, the Queen is the head of state. She still, constitutionally holds power. That power is wielded by the prime minister but he still seeks permission from the Queen to do so, though of course that's largely ceremonial these days. To answer your question in simple terms, the House of Commons holds most power and the members of parliament who sit in that house are elected directly by the people. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 20:12:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C70037B42C for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.130.19.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.130.19]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15027; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BAEA43A.DF42C7B@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:10:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Stephen Hurd , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <948140000.1001159802@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAD1D06.6E56344F@mindspring.com> <1220300000.1001212050@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BAE42B0.C5B5AA4E@mindspring.com> <27760000.1001282869@lobster.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > > Either the U.K. has sovereignty over Ireland, in which case > > the conflict is internal, or it doesn't, in which case, "the > > right side" is a matter of debate. > > It's clear from that statement that you don't actually know anything about > the Irish situation. Would that be because of my Protestant father, or my Catholic mother? All I see is a bunch of idiots killing each other in the name of God as a result of a religious difference that arose from a King wanting a divorce and a Pope denying it, in a petty attempt to demonstrate that each had more temporal power than the other, when both decried the value of temporal power. So call it "Northern Ireland" instead of "Ireland". Hmmm... I guess you could argue that bin Laden is also killing people in the name of God, so in that light you could argue a similarity to the situations. > However, the telling comment above is that '"the right side" is > a matter of debate'. So there are good and bad terrorists then? No. Just that there is room for debate. That doesn't mean room for terrorism. > You're justifying the US' support for the IRA because there's a > possibility they were on the right side? No, I'm saying that there is no U.S. support one way or the other; the U.K. has also met with Sinn Fein, just as the U.S. government did. The U.S. doesn't technically have a position one way or the other, until Congress votes funds or passes a resolution pro one side or the other, and the President signs it. Clinton himself may favor one side or the other, but he was acting as an individual, just as U.S. citizens or citizens of other countries give money to support either side. U.S. citizens may have acted, but the U.S. government has not. We might as well hold nations responsible for the actions of individual citizens who act without that nations support, tacit or otherwise. If there were a hypothetical attack on the scale of the recent attack on the U.S., I expect that Ireland would cooperate with the apprehension of the suspects, since it's not in their political best interest. Realize that "the troubles" have being going on 31 years, and have resulted in a total of somewhat under 3,300 deaths. Not to diminish this, but the attack on New York doubled that in the space of an hour. > The IRA situation is not an internal British matter like the Oklahoma > bombing was. It is analogous to the WTC attack in that a terrorist group > has been launching attacks on the UK, killing innocent civilians, and where > that terrorist group was based in a foreign country. I looked carefully for a "best source" for you for this; so... according to Professor Neal Lineback of Appalachian State University: Open conflict is common in many developing countries, but it is inconceivable to many Americans that Catholics and Protestants can't make peace. I think the accurately expresses the general view of the IRA vs. the U.K. in the U.S.. A good overview from a historical and U.S. perspective is online at: http://www.maptrade.org/g9501.html Note that it is somewhat dated, being approximately 5 years old. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 23 23:57:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10A437B40E for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id f8O6v8Q88444; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:57:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:57:07 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010924015707.D25695@futuresouth.com> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 01:42:52PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [trim trim trim on the cc's] On Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 01:42:52PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Terry Lambert remarked > > Really, it has worked remarkably well for the 225 years it > has been in power. If you want to get technical, the U.K. OK, I just had to jump on the opportunity to show Terry wrong :) It hasn't been in power for 225 years. 212, from memory, as the Constitution was ratified in 1789. For the 13 previous years, it was a loose and unstructured union of autonomous states, and before 1776 it was still legally a British colony. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 1:22:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2195137B403 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-26-232.dial.proxad.net [213.228.26.232]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52EF5F7EB for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:22:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 877 invoked by uid 1001); 24 Sep 2001 08:19:25 -0000 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:19:25 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Richards Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010924101924.A837@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BAEA43A.DF42C7B@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Paul Richards wrote: > > > Either the U.K. has sovereignty over Ireland, in which case the > > > conflict is internal, or it doesn't, in which case, "the right > > > side" is a matter of debate. > > > > It's clear from that statement that you don't actually know > > anything about the Irish situation. > > Would that be because of my Protestant father, or my Catholic > mother? All I see is a bunch of idiots killing each other in the > name of God as a result of a religious difference that arose from a > King wanting a divorce and a Pope denying it, Yes, I guess it all looks the same from American. Britain, Ireland, France, Germany, same thing... > So call it "Northern Ireland" instead of "Ireland". It still needs to be explained to you? Ireland is an independent country and has been for decades. Northern Ireland is a part of Great Britain. Paul's point was that Ireland, a foreign country to Great Britain, has been "harbouring" terrorists to the same extent that the US accuses Afghanistan of harbouring them. Yes, the scale of human lives lost has been different. Britain has not carpet-bombed Ireland, or destroyed pharmaceutical factories claiming they are chemical weapons plants. In fact, in recent years Britain is not, I believe, responsible for killing any Irish civilians at all. But the principle is the same. The point is, what does Bush mean by nations who "harbour" terrorists? Does he mean they are actively supporting them? In that case there was no need to negotiate with the Taliban, was there? They are criminals as much as Osama (assuming there's some proof against Osama, which is not at all clear, all we have is a bunch of names of Saudi pilots half of whom are alive and well and shocked at being associated with this thing). Or does he mean the terrorists happen to be living in that country? In that case, let alone Ireland, America too harbours terrorists: it harboured the very same ones who struck on Sept 11. And what is a terrorist? Someone who kills civilians in order to instil terror in the population? America fits that description perfectly. When I heard the news about the WTC, I was shocked and horrified. When a little later I heard about the Pentagon, I just couldn't react with the same shock: rationally, I knew that there were civilians there too, and of course there were all the passengers on the plane, but my dominant (irrational, I know) reaction was one of satisfaction that someone had targeted that abominable building. In fact, if the terrorists had struck only the Pentagon and had done so without killing innocent passengers and flight crew, I doubt I could have felt any regret at all. Maybe my view of the Pentagon and, particularly, the CIA is coloured by the fact that I've lived most of my life in a third world country (though many western Europeans seem to share my views, in fact according to reports questioners on the BBC's "Question Time" reduced a former US ambassadors to tears). True, the CIA has not actually been active in India (though many Indians believe to this day that it was the CIA which downed the commercial aircraft carrying Homi Bhabha, Indian nuclear scientist, in the 1960s). But the entire Afghanistan/Pakistan mess is due to the CIA. Osama is a CIA creation; so are the Taliban. Remarkably, it seems many Americans do not realise that at all. The American media does a remarkable job at self-censoring. Speaking of Pakistan, America had terrific relations with that country while it was ruled by the unspeakable military dictator Zia-ul-Haq. After his mysterious death, when a semblance of democracy returned there, their relations with America took a sharp downturn. In this case it's sometimes attributed to the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, which removed Pakistan's importance in American eyes, but in fact the pattern is not new: America has consistently befriended the worst dictators in the world (Saddam Hussein, anyone? Yes, America supported and armed him, too. Marcos? Much of Central and South America, for that matter? Does the American press even mention these things?) Today Pakistan is again ruled by a military dictator, which of course makes things convenient for America. India has never been a dictatorship (well, except for 3 years in the 1970s), but our best relations with the US have been in the last 3 years, with a right-wing Hindu nationalist party in power. Coincidence? I'm not sure at all. Sorry if I seem bitter. In fact I'm not at all sympathetic with Islamic terrorism, being from a country which has been suffering from it for years. But I find this blind unthinking American jingoism and "the rest of the world doesn't count" attitude totally nauseating, especially at this time. (Britain, of course, has been a party to much of this, including the attacks where that Sudanese aspirin plant was bombed, and the ongoing genocide of the Iraqi people in the name of targetting Saddam Hussein. But at least the British public, and the British press, seems much more informed and thinking, and has much less of that "wave that flag" attitude.) - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 1:29:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13005.mail.yahoo.com (web13005.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A0EFC37B410 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010924082932.45975.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.212.99.11] by web13005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:29:32 PDT Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Sibilski To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-855293391-1001320172=:45848" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --0-855293391-1001320172=:45848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-855293391-1001320172=:45848 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-855293391-1001320172=:45848-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 9:56:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.key.co.za (pluto.key.co.za [196.2.150.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D483237B40A for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pluto.key.co.za ([196.2.150.4] helo=bigsky) by pluto.key.co.za with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15lZ1x-000JfI-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:56:30 +0200 Message-ID: <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> From: "Peter Lockhart" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:53:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Why would we support Bin Laden when he has hated the US for some many years? > We did support Suddam at one point only because or Iran. I can't recall any > one time where the US had any interest in training or helping Bin Laden's > group. > Name one. heh. this about sums it up. A poll on that bastion of unbiased news reporting otherwise known as CNN, reported about 87% of Americans polled supporting whatever action Bush proposed. The vast majority of American citizens I'm sure, almost oblivious of the fact that Bin Laden was on their payroll only a few years earlier. I think it's this sort of reason that has people worried as to the hot-headed actions of the US. There seems to be little, if any, understanding as to the mechanics of world politics for the American public since their general world-events clue comes from CNN and similar networks. Within hours of the attack CNN had lined up every possible expert opinion pointing fingers Bin Laden's way. This soon included countries harbouring terrorists. Fingers pointed to Afghanistan. A press conference by the Taleben which was called within hours of the attack, was interrupted 1 minute into it because it obviously wasn't exciting enough to maintain viewership. Every possible news item to generate hate the way of the East with almost no time going towards possibly looking at what would motivate people to do this or hearing what those accused had to say. Not too much better than state-owned propoganda it would seem. "Depleted Uranium in Iraq ? Affecting the population for years to come after we fought and left ? what's that ?" etc Of course what the public thinks doesn't (necessarily) drive what Bush does, but it makes it awful hard for him to say "Uh sorry, we were barking up the wrong tree" if real evidence identified another culprit. And with the citizen's scrutiny away from their own government's previous actions, it means they're more ready to accept reduced civil liberties (which I see people are already prepared to do judging by a few polls floating around). Perhaps the conspiracy theorists are right. Peter Lockhart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 11:53:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25D37B40A for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id f8OIcxB70392 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:38:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:38:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: BSDCon 2000 electronic conference proceedings? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At one point, the papers from BSDCon 2000 were online on bsdcon.org, but that now seems to be down. Does anyone know where I could find those papers? Also, any hope of bsdcon.org going up again to provide continued online access as well as a cross reference to the USENIX pages? Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 14:44:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD44237B407 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010924214401.TZIP15899.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:44:01 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:26:02 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010924101924.A837@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BAEA43A.DF42C7B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org First off, I have yet to find the media source anywhere around the world that reports without any bias, so if you expect to gain credibility/IQ points over Americans for listening to CNN then you're barking up the wrong tree. And I've heard CNN report several times that the U.S. armed bin Laden during the Soviet occupation (attempt) in Afghanistan. Retired General H. Norman Shwarzkopf himself was interviewed and admitted that many of the terrorists in that region may have received training during times when they were allied against the Soviets. Saying that we deserved the Attack on the 11th for that reason is like saying that the rifle instructor deserved to be shot by his student after they got into an argument. Me personally, I would be behind any country in our situation that decided to go after the perpetrators and all who would hide them. Japan, Britain, Germany, Russia--you name it. This has NOTHING to do with past events. You can trace through recent world history like the most enlightened scholar around, but there isn't a context you can give me that make such a crime acceptable. So trying to concoct one seems a waste to me. This country doesn't believe in trying to understand the reason you committed the crime. It punishes you and let's you serve as an example to others who would do the same. And if we think we have the means to punish those who have committed this act, then so be it. And yes, you do seem bitter in this message. --Chip Morton At 04:19 AM 9/24/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >[ snipped out several paragraphs stating that virtual every modern-day >problem in the Middle East / East Asia can be traced back to the U.S., >with some help from the British ] > >Sorry if I seem bitter. In fact I'm not at all sympathetic with >Islamic terrorism, being from a country which has been suffering from >it for years. But I find this blind unthinking American jingoism and >"the rest of the world doesn't count" attitude totally nauseating, >especially at this time. (Britain, of course, has been a party to >much of this, including the attacks where that Sudanese aspirin plant >was bombed, and the ongoing genocide of the Iraqi people in the name >of targetting Saddam Hussein. But at least the British public, and >the British press, seems much more informed and thinking, and has much >less of that "wave that flag" attitude.) > >- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 14:44:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0263E37B408 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010924214403.TZJQ15899.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:44:03 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924172914.017fd4f8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:43:49 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:53 PM 9/24/2001, Peter Lockhart wrote: >A poll on that bastion of unbiased news reporting otherwise known as CNN, >reported about 87% of Americans polled supporting whatever action Bush >proposed. The vast majority of American citizens I'm sure, almost oblivious >of the fact that Bin Laden was on their payroll only a few years earlier. Again, even if most Americans don't know this (and I would doubt most citizens worldwide know it), does it at all justify his doing such a thing? Can you really tell me that America "deserved" this sort of attack for allying with the man years before? Of course, it kills me how many arguments in this thread are build on the premise that Americans are so ignorant of world events and politics that they shouldn't be allowed to devise their own policy. Besides showing me a whole new level of anti-American sentiment, it just doesn't fly. And I really would like to know what countries you all are representing (U.K., Australia, India, etc) and see how YOUR countries leaders have stacked up on this issue. >I think it's this sort of reason that has people worried as to the >hot-headed actions of the US. There seems to be little, if any, >understanding as to the mechanics of world politics for the American public >since their general world-events clue comes from CNN and similar networks. It's been nearly two weeks now since the attacks occurred, and there still has been NO OFFICIAL MILITARY ACTION ON PART OF THE UNITED STATES. Lots of meetings, lots of talks between high-level diplomats, but no military action. How is this hot-headed? Furthermore, given the widespread support that has been extended by the world's leaders and the show of moral support from citizens of every nationality across the globe, I'm hard pressed to believe that our position is wrong. Can you recall any time in modern history where one country has had such widespread support on any issue? >Within hours of the attack CNN had lined up every possible expert opinion >pointing fingers Bin Laden's way. This soon included countries harbouring >terrorists. Fingers pointed to Afghanistan. A press conference by the >Taleben which was called within hours of the attack, was interrupted 1 >minute into it because it obviously wasn't exciting enough to maintain >viewership. Every possible news item to generate hate the way of the East >with almost no time going towards possibly looking at what would motivate >people to do this or hearing what those accused had to say. Not too much >better than state-owned propoganda it would seem. And I'm still waiting for somebody from another country to show me the unbiased news source. I really would like to subscribe. I personally think state-run media is rather limiting, but guess what--some citizens actually *like* their state-run media. And who am I to tell them that their wrong, that their country's decisions are less valid because I don't think they're as educated as I am about their politics? I'm better off spitting into the wind. >Of course what the public thinks doesn't (necessarily) drive what Bush does, >but it makes it awful hard for him to say "Uh sorry, we were barking up the >wrong tree" if real evidence identified another culprit. And with the >citizen's scrutiny away from their own government's previous actions, it >means they're more ready to accept reduced civil liberties (which I see >people are already prepared to do judging by a few polls floating around). You're making chicken and egg arguments here. In this case, it doesn't matter whether Bush's actions are influenced by public opinion or vice-versa. The two are almost completely in sync. And I believe that is what most of the world is really afraid of. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 15:11:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFAA37B422 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (unknown [213.228.2.125]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D1EAB3DC for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:11:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 783 invoked by uid 1001); 24 Sep 2001 22:10:27 -0000 Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:10:27 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: 4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Me personally, I would be behind any country in our situation that > decided to go after the perpetrators and all who would hide them. > Japan, Britain, Germany, Russia--you name it. This has NOTHING to do > with past events. You can trace through recent world history like the > most enlightened scholar around, but there isn't a context you can > give me that make such a crime acceptable. So trying to concoct one > seems a waste to me. This crime is not acceptable. There is no justification for it. America has every right to retaliate. No argument on that. BUT - knowing America, the retaliation is only going to create a further unholy mess, which will poison the region for years, as if it hasn't been damaged enough already, and I'm from a country in that region which is already suffering from the terrorism which resulted from America's earlier experiments there. Islamic terrorists, from that part of the world, using know-how gained from Americans, set off serial bomb blasts in 1992-93 in Bombay which killed hundreds of people. Where was your American anti-terrorist fervour then? They hijacked an Indian Airlines flight from Nepal, and after taking it all over the middle east, kept it for days in Khandahar (Afghanistan), killing one passenger on the way. They've killed thousands in Kashmir. Forget about India if you like: Pakistan, America's erstwhile ally, has been perhaps the hardest hit by fundamentalist sectarian violence; Pakistan's politicians acknowledge it today. They too made mistakes in not controlling the cancer earlier; but ultimately all this, I repeat, is the doing of the CIA; they couldn't stomach the thought of the Soviets entering Afghanistan, and any means were fair game to the end of getting them out. Well, it all comes around eventually. This time, I fear, the results of America's "revenge" will be much worse: not only for countries in that region, but for the whole world. That's not to say nothing should be done. Handled wisely, maybe terrorism can indeed be controlled, the lot of those countries can be improved, the world can become a better place. Somehow, I don't trust America to take us to that kind of Utopia. Not on past record. I'm mildly encouraged by the fact that they haven't started bombing yet; but only mildly. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 16:47:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337BE37B410 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010924234727.CPKR19285.femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:47:27 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:47:14 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org First off, let me say that I'm not well-educated enough about these other incidents to debate with you on them. So there it is for you--an American admitting on the record that he is ignorant on a foreign issue. ;-) But even if the CIA was involved in training and arming these people, it was NOT done in the name of terrorism. It was made in the interest of stopping the spread of Communism, which has been part of our national directive for decades now. The fact that these men later turned rogue and used their knowledge against the U.S. or any other peoples doesn't mean that they should not be stopped. As I've said before, their training and past history are irrelevant here. What they did was wrong. "This crime is not acceptable" and "it all comes around eventually" don't sound like they could come from the same person to me. Frankly, my hope is that if there's any good to come out of this whole horrible mess, it's that this can be used as a rallying cry to bring many nations together that will help stamp out terrorism. I don't believe that the U.S. can do it acting as a lone cowboy, but I do believe that this country is in a unique position to help co-ordinate and bolster the efforts of many nations that have the will but lack the way to achieve this goal. And if that means no more bombings in Bombay, London, or New York, then in my mind that's A Good Thing. Even if you do think the U.S. was slow to take a hard stance on terrorism, I don't really see how you can condemn our desire to stop it once and for all. With lots of luck and assistance, we may just succeed. --Chip Morton PS -- And I would still like to know where your country's leaders/people stand on this issue? At 06:10 PM 9/24/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >This crime is not acceptable. There is no justification for it. >America has every right to retaliate. No argument on that. > >BUT - knowing America, the retaliation is only going to create a >further unholy mess, which will poison the region for years, as if it >hasn't been damaged enough already, and I'm from a country in that >region which is already suffering from the terrorism which resulted >from America's earlier experiments there. Islamic terrorists, from >that part of the world, using know-how gained from Americans, set off >serial bomb blasts in 1992-93 in Bombay which killed hundreds of >people. Where was your American anti-terrorist fervour then? They >hijacked an Indian Airlines flight from Nepal, and after taking it all >over the middle east, kept it for days in Khandahar (Afghanistan), >killing one passenger on the way. They've killed thousands in >Kashmir. Forget about India if you like: Pakistan, America's >erstwhile ally, has been perhaps the hardest hit by fundamentalist >sectarian violence; Pakistan's politicians acknowledge it today. They >too made mistakes in not controlling the cancer earlier; but >ultimately all this, I repeat, is the doing of the CIA; they couldn't >stomach the thought of the Soviets entering Afghanistan, and any means >were fair game to the end of getting them out. Well, it all comes >around eventually. > >This time, I fear, the results of America's "revenge" will be much >worse: not only for countries in that region, but for the whole world. >That's not to say nothing should be done. Handled wisely, maybe >terrorism can indeed be controlled, the lot of those countries can be >improved, the world can become a better place. Somehow, I don't trust >America to take us to that kind of Utopia. Not on past record. I'm >mildly encouraged by the fact that they haven't started bombing yet; >but only mildly. > >R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 17:31:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C3537B43B for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f8P0VA355312 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:31:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3BAFD049.D47F0F66@duth.gr> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:31:05 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bah... I tried *really* hard to stay out of this discussion, but I just can't. Rahul, this is not a direct response to your mail mind you, your mail was just a starting point for me. I believe that you may find that we agree on several points. Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > This crime is not acceptable. There is no justification for it. > America has every right to retaliate. No argument on that. Certainly... striking the Pentagon is one thing - even though civilians do work there, it is a military installation, and war is war - but striking a civilian building at business hours is a clear indication that their goal was to kill thousands of innocent people. THIS is certainly not acceptable, and that is an understatement. I am not too sure though that this gives any God given right for any kind of retaliation or not, at least not without considering what results this would have. You see the problem is NOT that the terrorists did this, the problem is that they had the reason and will to do something like this. It is easy to dismiss a case of a lone terrorist as an act of lunacy or whatever, but it takes a cause (whether it is just or not is irrelevant and only history will be the judge of that) for so many people to team up and conspire and execute a plan as complex as that, especially one which involves the planned death of members of the team. Also, lets not forget that the desired outcome of any US action following those events is, or rather should be, not just to bring to justice those responsible, but to also ensure that such a tragedy doesn't happen again. Sure you can probably capture and kill all of those involved that weren't actually on the planes, but if you don't do anything about the root of the problem, you'll just get more of the same sooner or later, for the obvious reason that the obviously don't give a damn for their life anyway, and they aren't scared of the consequences of their actions. Preventing such attacks in the future is I believe obviously out of the question, even if freedom is severely sacrificed in the US. I mean come on, they did this with pocket knifes and paper cutters for crying out loud. That's all it took, along with careful planning and determination of course. You just can't ban all sharp objects and thought. Even with all the money and technology in the world, the US, just like any other country, will never be immune to such, or entirely different kind of attacks. If the US goes ahead and attacks Afghanistan or any other country for that matter, this will just create hordes of new innocent orphans or fathers that watched their children die for no reason whatsoever, just the kind of people in other words that it takes for such attacks to go on in the future. Oh, it would also do absolutely nothing to bring to justice those involved. I happen to live in Greece, which is in the EU and a NATO member for those not in the know, and I have friends in the army that were part of the KFOR. It is one thing to listen about "collateral damage" on CNN, and another to be a part of the peacekeeping force in a totally devastated country which only years ago you used to go on holiday to... Imagine what would have happened if these were not "surgical hits" with "smart bombs" as they were described back then. You know, when I heard G. Bush say in his first speech that day that this was an act of cowards, I felt uneasy... it takes a lot of balls to die for a cause, no matter how just or not it is, and it certainly takes more balls than taking a decision in the oval office to bomb a country back to the stone age (again, if I might add) from 50,000 feet with no risk of allied casualties... I wouldn't be too quick to use the word "coward" if I was in his shoes so to say. I think that the reason that the US public is unable to comprehend why would people do such a thing is that they have absolutely no idea whatsoever about what their government is doing worldwide. I'm not basing this on any stereotype or anything - I have friends, colleagues and relatives over in the US mind you. I believe that if they had a clue, perhaps they would realise that revenge might not be such a good idea, because it was such acts in the first place that fueled the hatred that was the root of the events of the 11th of September. Just the other night I was watching a late night talk show which included well respected people and people from the government (greek) and there was a live telephone interview with Colin Powell. One of the questions that the host of the show had the balls to ask (believe me it wasn't one of those staged PR acts you see on CNN or other similar "news" networks over there in the US) was whether or not the US had noticed a trend and had fears that after having armed and trained UCK to cause havoc in Yugoslavia, just like they did with the Taliban in Afghanistan, they too might turn against the US. Arguably, this was bellow the belt, however it is THESE kind of questions that the American public should be asking. For the record, Mr. Powell denied any US connection with the UCK and the Taliban (BS, both are well documented) and having nothing else to say went on mumbling about the "awful" track record of terrorism in Greece, which is absolute BS, we're talking a few dozen dead in the last 30 years, nearly all military or secret service related... contrast that with Oklahoma City bombing for example, or organized terrorist groups in other Western countries (ETA in Spain, the IRA in the UK, I could go on etc). He even went as far as to imply that the government wasn't doing a particularly good job at aprehending those responsible, quite clearly implying that the government might be supporting terrorism (!). This in my book is as close as it gets to a threat from a diplomat, particularly when it comes a few hours after the president of the US declared war on all states that provide a safe harbour to terrorists. I don't want to even think of what he might have said had Greece not been a US ally. Is this the new world order then? The US being the legislative, judicial and executing branch of a world government? I sincerely hope that the US citizens will wake up and start asking tough questions to those that govern them, because a crusade against such an ill defined enemy is merely a license to kill, and they, the innocent US citizens, might face the dire consequences again, just like the innocent citizens of other countries worldwide have been facing for years now. --kkonstan Disclaimer: I am just a network admin over here, and that's all I do at the university. This is my opinion and mine only, and I wouldn't be too surprised if all of the professors over here at the history and ethnology or the international relations departments told me I was dead wrong :> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 24 17:52:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366F437B419 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f8P0qM355865; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:52:22 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:52:02 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > But even if the CIA was involved in training and arming these people, it > was NOT done in the name of terrorism. It was made in the interest of > stopping the spread of Communism, which has been part of our national > directive for decades now. Let me ask you a question - is fighting the spread of Communism any more just a cause than fighting the spread of Capitalism? It's not a question of ideology mind you, and please don't take it as such. Just think about it. What would happen for example if things went differently, and today the USSR was still intact, the USA was split instead, and some of the USSR supported "organizations" decided there was not much left as far as Capitalism is concerned, and decided to fight back Communism instead. This is quite a simplistic thoeretical outcome, but let me restate your sentence now to suit this hypothetical situation: "But even if the KGB was involved in training and arming these people, it was NOT done in the name of terrorism. It was made in the interest of stopping the spread of Capitalism, which has been part of our national directive for decades now." What do you think about that? The only element that changed was ideology, and suddenly it doesn't make much sense to someone that believes in a free market and whatnot, does it? It is quite easy to let ideology blind you... The fact is that the CIA has created a monster (numerous ones mind you, but we'll just talk about the ones at hand right now) and God knows what promises it made to them appart from offering weapons and training. Well, there's not much left as far as Communism is concerned to fight against, and now they're fighting back because once they became useless they were more of a liability than an asset and were promptly left to their own devices. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 0:34:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2992537B40C for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8P7YAn02178 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:34:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA39500 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:34:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:34:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010925093409.D38505@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > PS -- And I would still like to know where your country's > leaders/people stand on this issue? Well, if you're *that* interested, why don't you find out for yourself? http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1544000/1544149.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1561000/1561173.stm (Western, but not American, media: you know that other countries have news sites, too, right?) For some press commentary from India, see, for instance, today's column by noted Indian columnist Kuldip Nayar on the government's actions so far: http://www.indian-express.com/ie20010925/ed4.html (Nayar often writes in the Pakistani press too, and his tone is slightly different there but the substance is the same.) There is also today's column in The Hindu, http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/05252524.htm (the writer is a politician and scholar, and a grandson of Mahatma Gandhi). Note: these views are not "representative" in any way. India is a very large country. And one of Pakistan's most respected columnists has this to say about his country's collaboration with the US. (URL may change next week.) http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm In fact, if you read just about *any* international press (say, the Guardian, http://www.guardian.co.uk), on a regular basis and in reasonable detail, you'll know quite a lot about what people around the world think. The Guardian even has an occasional summary of what Indian and Pakistani papers are saying. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 1:18: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8E437B438 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8P8I1n07886 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:18:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA41679 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:18:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:18:00 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010925101800.B40431@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BAFD049.D47F0F66@duth.gr> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > Bah... I tried *really* hard to stay out of this discussion, but I just > can't. Rahul, this is not a direct response to your mail mind you, your > mail was just a starting point for me. I believe that you may find that > we agree on several points. In fact, I basically agree with everything you say. Let me clarify what I meant by "America has every right to retaliate". I meant, if America can pinpoint who did this, with proof (not necessarily mathematical certainty, just "proof beyond reasonable doubt" as they say in legal circles), they have every right to take action against them. Unfortunately, proof is what they are unwilling to supply. The Taliban demanded proof, which was very reasonable, but even the American list of suspected hijackers is quite shaky now (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm) Let me add (I said it before, I think, but I'll say it again) I'm not defending the Taliban. Even if they or Bin Laden did not do this, they would have been willing to. In fact bin Laden expressed satisfaction in his initial statement, while denying responsibility. There is no doubt that they have been training terrorists for a long time, and people in India would be as happy as the Americans to see them squashed. And they have done horrible things to their own people. It was comical that, in the face of the human tragedy they have presided over in Afghanistan, the world was so agitated about their destruction of the statues: shows where our priorities are. However, at some point America has to (a) accept its responsibility for the whole mess and (b) take action to prevent it happening again. I think completing the destruction of the Pentagon and closing down the CIA would be a good start. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 11:14:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F6F37B40C for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.141.174.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.141.174]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8PHx3W14480; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB0C617.47F180D5@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:59:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <3BAE400A.9BD2F357@mindspring.com> <3BAE494C.B08C2E05@mindspring.com> <20010924015707.D25695@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > > [trim trim trim on the cc's] > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 01:42:52PM -0700, a little birdie told me > that Terry Lambert remarked > > > > Really, it has worked remarkably well for the 225 years it > > has been in power. If you want to get technical, the U.K. > > OK, I just had to jump on the opportunity to show Terry wrong :) > > It hasn't been in power for 225 years. 212, from memory, as the > Constitution was ratified in 1789. For the 13 previous years, it was a > loose and unstructured union of autonomous states, and before 1776 it was > still legally a British colony. It's rather like "the millenium starts on Jan 1 2001"... the U.S. celebrated its bicentenial in 1976. I should have stuck with "200+ years", which is what I had written originally, but later changed to 225 because of the bicentenial. Technically, given the date of the Declration in 1776, I should have said something sifferent for that, but... whatever. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 11:23:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A9037B403 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.141.174.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.141.174]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8PIHMW22056; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:18:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Lockhart Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Lockhart wrote: > A poll on that bastion of unbiased news reporting otherwise known as CNN, > reported about 87% of Americans polled supporting whatever action Bush > proposed. The vast majority of American citizens I'm sure, almost oblivious > of the fact that Bin Laden was on their payroll only a few years earlier. If my former employee shoots my neighbor, I'm not going to care whether he was my former employee or not. > Of course what the public thinks doesn't (necessarily) drive what Bush does, > but it makes it awful hard for him to say "Uh sorry, we were barking up the > wrong tree" if real evidence identified another culprit. I think any responsible party whose body could be dragged through the streets would work; we aren't that committed to bin Laden being the bad guy, as we are to getting the real bad guy. > And with the > citizen's scrutiny away from their own government's previous actions, it > means they're more ready to accept reduced civil liberties (which I see > people are already prepared to do judging by a few polls floating around). These people are morons. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 12:14:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50DB37B410 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.141.174.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.141.174]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28736; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB0D5FA.D92CB292@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:07:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <3BAFD049.D47F0F66@duth.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > Certainly... striking the Pentagon is one thing - even though civilians > do work there, it is a military installation, and war is war - but Can you name the nation at which the U.S. is at war, such that your "war is war" comment is meaningful at all? The is a decided lack of a declared war under whose umbrella you can reasonably state "striking the Pentagon is one thing". I can agree that the Pentagon is a symbolic military target, but can't agree that an attack was warranted without a state of war existing. [ ... Attack on World Trade Center ... ] > I am not too sure though that this gives any God given right for any > kind of retaliation or not, at least not without considering what > results this would have. You see the problem is NOT that the terrorists > did this, the problem is that they had the reason and will to do > something like this. No, the problem is the terrorists. Any insane moron can claim to have a reason to do something violent without having had something violent done to them. > It is easy to dismiss a case of a lone terrorist as an act of lunacy or > whatever, but it takes a cause (whether it is just or not is irrelevant > and only history will be the judge of that) for so many people to team > up and conspire and execute a plan as complex as that, especially one > which involves the planned death of members of the team. No, all it takes is a persuasive lunatic. That's true whether we are talking about Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, or self-mutilating Nike wearing comet hitch-hikers. > Also, lets not forget that the desired outcome of any US action > following those events is, or rather should be, not just to bring to > justice those responsible, but to also ensure that such a tragedy > doesn't happen again. I think the desired outcome, as far as the U.S. public is concerned, is "all terrorists dead or otherwise rendered harmless". > Sure you can probably capture and kill all of those involved that > weren't actually on the planes, but if you don't do anything about the > root of the problem, you'll just get more of the same sooner or later, > for the obvious reason that the obviously don't give a damn for their > life anyway, and they aren't scared of the consequences of their > actions. So they kill thousands of us, and, like the rape of the Sabine women, we are supposed to now care about their lives or what happens to them. In general, your statement indicates that you believe that it is somehow the fault of the U.S. that these people have acted the way they have. I'd like to know how you reached this conclusion. > Preventing such attacks in the future is I believe obviously > out of the question, even if freedom is severely sacrificed > in the US. I mean come on, they did this with pocket knifes and > paper cutters for crying out loud. That's all it took, along > with careful planning and determination of course. You just > can't ban all sharp objects and thought. You're right; restricting freedoms for U.S. citizens is not the answer. > Even with all the money and technology in the world, the US, > just like any other country, will never be immune to such, or > entirely different kind of attacks. Nonsense. With sufficient technology, we can change their minds -- by actually changing their minds. Admittedly, a campaign to do what amounts to involuntary brain surgery on all terrorists is unlikely to be popular with the rest of the world, but at some point, if you are correct, and there is only escalation or capitualation to terrorist demands as the options available, well, then, we'll escalate. Unless you are suggesting that the U.S. should aide directly or indirectly in the destruction of Israel to placate these murderes, until the nest thing they decide they want badly enough to blackmail out of the U.S. by holding its civilians hostage to more mass murders? > If the US goes ahead and attacks Afghanistan or any other > country for that matter, this will just create hordes of new > innocent orphans or fathers that watched their children die > for no reason whatsoever, just the kind of people in other > words that it takes for such attacks to go on in the future. > Oh, it would also do absolutely nothing to bring to justice > those involved. So how would you wipe terrorism from the face of the Earth? [ ... smart bombs and "surgical hits" ... ] It is unlikely that this will be the primary method employed. > You know, when I heard G. Bush say in his first speech that day that > this was an act of cowards, I felt uneasy... it takes a lot of balls to > die for a cause, no matter how just or not it is, and it certainly takes > more balls than taking a decision in the oval office to bomb a country > back to the stone age (again, if I might add) from 50,000 feet with no > risk of allied casualties... I wouldn't be too quick to use the word > "coward" if I was in his shoes so to say. I believe he was referring to the attack on civilians, without warning or declaration of war, by a group that has not even declared itself a government in exile of a country. It is an act of cowardice to not be willing to be responsible for your own actions. It doesn't matter if the consequences are victory for your side, or, as in this case, reaping the whirlwind. > I think that the reason that the US public is unable to comprehend why > would people do such a thing is that they have absolutely no idea > whatsoever about what their government is doing worldwide. I'm not > basing this on any stereotype or anything - I have friends, colleagues > and relatives over in the US mind you. I believe that if they had a > clue, perhaps they would realise that revenge might not be such a good > idea, because it was such acts in the first place that fueled the hatred > that was the root of the events of the 11th of September. I'm well aware of most of what's public about what the U.S. government is doing worldwide. I don't see a reason in most of it for violent attacks on U.S. civilians. > Just the other night I was watching a late night talk show which > included well respected people and people from the government (greek) > and there was a live telephone interview with Colin Powell. One of the > questions that the host of the show had the balls to ask (believe me it > wasn't one of those staged PR acts you see on CNN or other similar > "news" networks over there in the US) was whether or not the US had > noticed a trend and had fears that after having armed and trained UCK to > cause havoc in Yugoslavia, just like they did with the Taliban in > Afghanistan, they too might turn against the US. Arguably, this was > bellow the belt, however it is THESE kind of questions that the American > public should be asking. For the record, Mr. Powell denied any US > connection with the UCK and the Taliban (BS, both are well documented) > and having nothing else to say went on mumbling about the "awful" track > record of terrorism in Greece, which is absolute BS, we're talking a few > dozen dead in the last 30 years, nearly all military or secret service > related... contrast that with Oklahoma City bombing for example, or > organized terrorist groups in other Western countries (ETA in Spain, the > IRA in the UK, I could go on etc). For the record, the U.S. supported bin Laden and al Qaeda ("the base"), and not the Taliban. If you could expand the acronym for U.C.K., I could tell you whether or not I know anything about their position with regards to the U.S. involvement in the former Yugoslavia (I rather think the U.S. wants that region stabilized, since it has not really been stable since it was a single country under Grand Marshall Tito). > He even went as far as to imply that the government wasn't doing > a particularly good job at aprehending those responsible, quite > clearly implying that the government might be supporting terrorism > (!). They made the claim that they didn't know where he was, yet he issued faxes over their border phone lines to a newspaper in Pakistan. Admittedly, the U.S. has better technology with regard to tracking such communications, but the Afghanistan telephone network is not so large, nor is it made up of stepper relayas one would have to manually examine to perform a call trace. > This in my book is as close as it gets to a threat from a diplomat, > particularly when it comes a few hours after the president of the > US declared war on all states that provide a safe harbour to > terrorists. I don't want to even think of what he might have said > had Greece not been a US ally. Realize that the President does not have the power to declare war, and that it takes an act of Congress to declare war. This was true even after the attack on Perl Harbor. The President described the act as an acto of war, and he stated that we needed to engage in a war on terrorism, and he stated that states that provided safe harbor would not be distinguished from those terrorists to whom the safe harbor was granted. But this is a far cry from actually declaring a real war. > Is this the new world order then? The US being the legislative, judicial > and executing branch of a world government? I sincerely hope that the US > citizens will wake up and start asking tough questions to those that > govern them, because a crusade against such an ill defined enemy is > merely a license to kill, and they, the innocent US citizens, might face > the dire consequences again, just like the innocent citizens of other > countries worldwide have been facing for years now. Most U.S. citizens dislike the idea of the U.S. becoming an unpaid police force for the world; this is one of the reasons that Bill Clinton's party lost the election, following U.S. military involvement in Somalia and other countries, with no defined completion criteria for the missions there, which would end up with the U.S. presence going home. But a dislike is not the same thing as a refusal to bear the burden, should it become necessary to protect the lives of U.S. civilians. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 12:34:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135CB37B93B for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.141.174.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.141.174]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04431; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB0D765.92D4DF9A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:13:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > Technical Information wrote: > > But even if the CIA was involved in training and arming these people, it > > was NOT done in the name of terrorism. It was made in the interest of > > stopping the spread of Communism, which has been part of our national > > directive for decades now. > > Let me ask you a question - is fighting the spread of Communism any more > just a cause than fighting the spread of Capitalism? It's not a question > of ideology mind you, and please don't take it as such. Just think about > it. What would happen for example if things went differently, and today > the USSR was still intact, the USA was split instead, and some of the > USSR supported "organizations" decided there was not much left as far > as Capitalism is concerned, and decided to fight back Communism instead. > This is quite a simplistic thoeretical outcome, but let me restate your > sentence now to suit this hypothetical situation: This situation could never arise. Beginning in the 1960's, the Soviet Union was dedicated to the destruction of the U.S.. This included deploying nuclear missles into Cuba to give them a first strike capability, upsetting the balance of power. The reason I say that this could never arise, is that they would not have stopped at splitting up the U.S. into nation-states. I refer you to what was nominally supposed to be a peace conference, in which Nikita Kruschev pounded the heel of his shoe on the table to drown out any discussion and yealled "We will bury you!". > The fact is that the CIA has created a monster (numerous ones mind you, > but we'll just talk about the ones at hand right now) and God knows what > promises it made to them appart from offering weapons and training. Let's say you are right; isn't it our responsibility, then, to slay that monster? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 12:53:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4017137BA74 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8PIpTn78232 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:51:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA70369 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:51:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:51:28 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Peter Lockhart , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010925205128.A70023@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:18:10AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 25, 2001 at 11:18:10: > Peter Lockhart wrote: > > A poll on that bastion of unbiased news reporting otherwise known as CNN, > > reported about 87% of Americans polled supporting whatever action Bush > > proposed. The vast majority of American citizens I'm sure, almost oblivious > > of the fact that Bin Laden was on their payroll only a few years earlier. > > If my former employee shoots my neighbor, I'm not going to care > whether he was my former employee or not. You're missing the point so totally I think it's deliberate. You don't care. The rest of the world does care. The rest of the world cares because America's "solution" to the problem will, likely as not, be to arm some other armed group against the Taliban (the northern alliance being the most likely candidate), flood the place with more sophisticated arms and ammunition, and eventually aim to install some puppet regime there. The catch being that a puppet regime will last only so long, and meanwhile a disenchanted population will be growing, another Bin Laden among them, the difference being that this one is much better armed. Or -- the US will simply kill so many civilians and trample over so many Islamic feelings that bin Ladens will arise spontaneously from all over. That's the reason for raising the issue of bin Laden being trained by the CIA (he's not an isolated example at all, only the most notorious). Already the US is showering its largesse on a military dictator in Pakistan, to add to such other eminently democratic clients in the region as the Saudi royal family. People are worried that it will happen again and it will be worse next time. Don't be surprised if there's trouble with Pakistan in the not-too-distant future: the military there is seriously disenchanted with the US, and have plenty of leftover US arms apart from the ones they've got from China and the ones the US may be giving them now. It's not like your former employee shooting your neighbour: it's like you arming your employee to shoot a neighbour, he turning around and shooting your son, then you training another employee to shoot the first employee, and so on ad nauseam. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 12:57:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1D537B409 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f8PJvUj17701; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:57:30 +0200 (CEST) To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:57:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.238.59 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is easy to dismiss a case of a lone terrorist as an act of lunacy or > whatever, but it takes a cause (whether it is just or not is irrelevant > and only history will be the judge of that) for so many people to team > up and conspire and execute a plan as complex as that, especially one > which involves the planned death of members of the team. I won't discuss the mistakes USA has/have made and/or the right and/or the type and extent of the [military] measures to be taken. Nobody has clean hands here. ;-) Let us suppose for one moment that, in Islamic countries, each and every [real or perceived as such] cause for hatred for the USA and the Western world were removed. In particular, in Afghanistan. Islam != "Islamic" fundamentalism In the past centuries (especially VIII, IX, X, XI A.D.), one of the most important and widespread civilizations was Islamic; its achievements can still be seen and admired today; and the Western World, as well as Western Culture, is greatly indebted to it. As certain Islamic authorities have pointed out in the past few days, the Koran neither speaks of "holy war" nor says that such crimes and/or atrocities as those committed on September 11 are "holy" in any sense whatsoever. Rather, BION, Islam is essentially a religion of **peace**. The cavemen which^H^H^H^H^Hwho live in Afghanistan and other ahem "Islamic" countries have NOTHING to do with Islam. They could be using **any** **other** **pretext** for their troglodyte behavio(u)r. In other words, religio instrumentum regni. The destruction of the statues of Buddha should not be dismissed as "folklore" and/or suchlike. It is indicative of a well-defined ahem "vision" of the world, viz no idea of human rights, and no room for women's rights at all. Eg women are refused studies, professions, etc. <"cultural features" snipped> It is interesting to note that, by contrast, **actual** primitive men did leave us paintings, monuments, etc. As a corollary of the above-mentioned vision, obviously, the Western World is completely wrong, and, of course, irremediably corrupt. More generally, any vision of the world that goes past *that* troglodyte level is [completely] wrong, and [irremediably] corrupt. Thus, western countries at large set a very, very, very bad example. Even if there were **no** cause whatsoever for hatred, as I have supposed, the Western World would nevertheless appear (at best) filthy, if not irreparably/totally lost. I am afraid that the ahem troglodytes in question would perpetrate horrible crimes on the western peoples all the same, sooner or later; otherwise stated, such a disaster as the WTC one would just be a question of time. It is their **ideology** that leads them to believe that the Western World, its culture, its art, and its way of life have to be destroyed. By the way, nowadays a number of ahem "Muslims" -- coming from a few "Islamic" countries -- are invited by their "religious" leaders to deceive western (Christian) women into marrying them, with the precise aim of turning these women, and their future sons, into slaves -- slaves of a distorted conception of Islam. That is, slaves tout court. Again, this has NOTHING to do with Islam as a civilization and/or as a religion. Sorry for the pessimism. Am I missing something? -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 13:29: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5A337B415 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8PKT1n86127 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:29:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA73819 ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:29:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:29:00 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:57:30PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta said on Sep 25, 2001 at 21:57:30: > The cavemen which^H^H^H^H^Hwho live in Afghanistan and other ahem "Islamic" > countries have NOTHING to do with Islam. They could be using **any** > **other** **pretext** for their troglodyte behavio(u)r. In other words, > religio instrumentum regni. > I am afraid that the ahem troglodytes in question would perpetrate > horrible crimes on the western peoples all the same, sooner or > later; otherwise stated, such a disaster as the WTC one would just > be a question of time. > > It is their **ideology** that leads them to believe that the Western > World, its culture, its art, and its way of life have to be > destroyed. > Sorry for the pessimism. Am I missing something? Yes, you're missing a *lot* by apparently characterising the general population of Afghanistan as "cavemen". I've also seen your argument about "they'd have done this anyway" elsewhere. It's bullshit. Every society has its share of fringe lunatics: America has its Jerry Falwell too. But in a normal society these people stay in a fringe where they belong. It's only at times of repression and difficulty, when a noticeable chunk of the population is feeling unjustly dealt with and getting desperate (these are mild words, read about these countries sometime) that the violent fringe can actually gather a following. Even now, Bin Laden has only a few thousand in his fold. The other 23 million or so in Afghanistan are victims; they are literally starving to death, and in between they are trying to escape the violence. The argument goes, the US may have made mistakes with bombing Afghanistan, Iraq and the rest, but these dirty Muslims have been hostile to America much earlier, such as the Iran hostage crisis in 1979 [1]. Yes indeed, but that was not unprovoked either. For years, America, in its famous support of democracy, had been propping up the Shah of Iran, just as it props up the Saudi royal family today; and at some point some Iranians decided they'd had enough. Iran went into a fundamentalist backlash, but now seems to be coming out of it. But even at the worst times, Iranian women could vote, work, legislate: things that are denied to Saudi women even today. That was I think the earliest confrontation of America with Islamic militancy; lets now turn to America's next enemy, Libya (ruled then and now by Muammar Gadhafi, a dictator but by no means a fundamentalist.) America bombed Tripoli (killing, among others, Gadhafi's infant daughter) because of broadcasts emanating from Tripoli apparently proclaiming Libya's guilt in a Berlin nightclub bombing a little earlier. But there has since been a claim [2], by former Mossad worker Victor Ostrovsky, that it was the Mossad who tricked the US into believing this by planting a transmitter in Tripoli. The US didn't much care about researching these things, and bombed anyway. Irony of ironies: Gadhafi has proclaimed his sympathy for the US victims (as has Iran) and has supported America's right to retaliate. Remaining history is more recent. The Iraq thing was provoked by Saddam Hussein, who invaded Kuwait, and Bush Sr had the support of most of the Muslim world in liberating them. Where the US went wrong was in the continued bombings and embargo on Iraq for ten years afterwards, which did not hurt Saddam at all, caused untold suffering on his people, and convinced most Arabs that the US does not value Arab lives at all. The Afghan Mujahedin were, as we already discussed, funded by the CIA, and then dropped by them, as were the Pakistan military, leading a Pakistani general to be quoted recently as saying "The US thinks we are like a condom: they can just use us and then throw us away." The roots of this present militancy are as much as in the extremist elements in Pakistan as in Afghanistan. And, of course, there's America's consistent "right or wrong" support and immense financial aid to Israel, an issue I won't even bother getting into. In short, it is this sort of thing, accumulated over years and years, which gives the violent fringe lunatics their chance at gathering a following and converting their talk to action. It is only a desperate people who would think of such a horrendous thing as the September 11 events. And, as I've said earlier, it looks like the upcoming US actions are going to follow the same pattern. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4260146,00.html [2] http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0495/9504058.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 13:35:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A9737B405 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:35:10 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: , Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:35:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3BB0D765.92D4DF9A@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010925203510.AAA13692@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I refer you to what was nominally supposed to be a peace= conference, in >which Nikita Kruschev pounded the heel of his shoe on the table= to drown out >any discussion and yealled "We will bury you!". >-- Terry =09I believe that Kruschev meant this quite literally. Remember,= the communists believed that capitalism would ultimately collapse. He meant that= when that happened, he would be there to pick up the pieces. He did not say= or mean that he would kill us, that is, that he would cause our death.= Only that he would outlive us and take care of the corpse our death would= leave. =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 15:22:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16DB37B417 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f8PMM3313998; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:22:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3BB10385.E88608A8@duth.gr> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:21:57 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <3BB0D765.92D4DF9A@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > > Technical Information wrote: > > > But even if the CIA was involved in training and arming these people, it > > > was NOT done in the name of terrorism. It was made in the interest of > > > stopping the spread of Communism, which has been part of our national > > > directive for decades now. > > > > Let me ask you a question - is fighting the spread of Communism any more > > just a cause than fighting the spread of Capitalism? It's not a question > > of ideology mind you, and please don't take it as such. Just think about > > it. What would happen for example if things went differently, and today > > the USSR was still intact, the USA was split instead, and some of the > > USSR supported "organizations" decided there was not much left as far > > as Capitalism is concerned, and decided to fight back Communism instead. > > This is quite a simplistic thoeretical outcome, but let me restate your > > sentence now to suit this hypothetical situation: > > This situation could never arise. Beginning in the 1960's, the > Soviet Union was dedicated to the destruction of the U.S.. This > included deploying nuclear missles into Cuba to give them a first > strike capability, upsetting the balance of power. I did mention that it was quite a simplistic theoretical outcome, the purpose of which was not to play what-if games, but rather to do s/Communism/Capitalism/g, thus removing or rather reversing the ideology biases contained in the statement hoping that this would show how silly it really was, at least for me. Apparently, it didn't work, for you at least, and I am not going to argue about it any more. > The reason I say that this could never arise, is that they would > not have stopped at splitting up the U.S. into nation-states. > > I refer you to what was nominally supposed to be a peace conference, > in which Nikita Kruschev pounded the heel of his shoe on the table > to drown out any discussion and yealled "We will bury you!". Even if he really meant this literally, which I doubt it, don't forget that it went both ways; the USSR viewed the US in much the same way; fear, hatred and propaganda of similar nature flowed in both countries. Let's just be glad we're all still around. > > The fact is that the CIA has created a monster (numerous ones mind you, > > but we'll just talk about the ones at hand right now) and God knows what > > promises it made to them appart from offering weapons and training. > > Let's say you are right; isn't it our responsibility, then, to > slay that monster? It would be much better if that monster was never created in the first place. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The question is not whether you slay the monster, but HOW. Certainly not by creating another monster out of the northern alliance or by bombing another country back to the stone age, IMHO. Noticed the trend? this is bound to come back and bite the US in the arse, probably harder too, in the not so distant future. I do believe that this is not what we want. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 17:21:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2961537B40C for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f8Q0LXO04997; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:21:33 +0200 (CEST) To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:21:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> In-Reply-To: <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.171.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scrive Rahul Siddharthan : > > > Salvo Bartolotta said on Sep 25, 2001 at 21:57:30: > > > > > The cavemen which^H^H^H^H^Hwho live in Afghanistan and other ahem > "Islamic" > > countries have NOTHING to do with Islam. They could be using **any** > > > **other** **pretext** for their troglodyte behavio(u)r. In other > words, > > religio instrumentum regni. > > > > > I am afraid that the ahem troglodytes in question would perpetrate > > horrible crimes on the western peoples all the same, sooner or > > later; otherwise stated, such a disaster as the WTC one would just > > be a question of time. > > > > It is their **ideology** that leads them to believe that the Western > > World, its culture, its art, and its way of life have to be > > destroyed. > > anyway> > > > Sorry for the pessimism. Am I missing something? > > Yes, you're missing a *lot* by apparently characterising the general > population of Afghanistan as "cavemen". Ooops, my fault, sorry. I was thinking of the "Islamic" leaders (using religion as a means of goverment, or "instrumentum regni"), and of [more or less large] unlettered masses following them. Yep, a good number of people are just victims, I agree. This holds to a varying extent in a few countries, where populations are needy and -- key factor -- illiterate, so a [more or less great] number of "religious" leaders teach them fundamentalistic ideas -- for their own **filthy** political/ideological/pseudoreligious purposes; which purposes involve, inter alia, that the Western World is irremediably rotten, etc. One characteristic example is Egypt, with both moderate and fundamentalist religious leaders. In fact, I was referring to an important Egyptian moderate religious authority in my previous letter. As far as I can see, fundamentalists, who are not exactly a small number in this country, create delicate problems for Mubarak himself, and can't be easily dismissed as "negligible" fringes. Pakistan is another example, with yet more aggressive fundamentalist masses. I believe that 1) the distortion of Islam/any religion has nothing to do with Islam and with religion at large; 2) these ideas can only be accepted by **ignorant** and [more or less large] [more or less] poor masses; 3) most of these religious/political leaders, for a variety of reasons, wish to keep these populations as ignorant [and poor] as they can. My pessimism arises from the extreme difficulty in attacking the roots of the problem, viz hunger & ignorance, which constitute ideal humus for [Islam] fundamentalism and other BS. > I've also seen your argument about "they'd have done this anyway" elsewhere. Oops, I read my letter again, and it makes a different impression from the intended one, sorry. I have a longer time scale and course of events in mind, the destruction of the West being the "endlosung" (the final solution) for Islam fundamentalists. Quite a few such indoctrinated people actually came to Europe, and also to Italy, with the precise aim I have described in the last part of my previuos letter. There HAVE been women fighting to take their daughters away from such "fathers" and "countries", where these daughters, as women, would have little to no human rights (and are considered preys, or rather "Islamic conquests"). Yep, I have specific situations in mind, too. Well, similar signals worry me, since I seem to see a subtle far-reaching destructive design. Whence my statement, or fear, of the possibility (in the long run) of crimes such as the WTC one. I very much hope to be wrong. :-)) > It's bullshit. Every > society has its share of fringe lunatics: America has its Jerry > Falwell too. Yes, I agree; however, American and European societies hardly know **that** hunger and related illiteracy. Yes, in Italy, too, there was terrorism. But it was quite different, with quite different aims. Those societies, eg in Africa or in the Middle East, are indigent and uneducated, what makes it easy to spread the word of eg a distorted Islam. To solve the problem, economic welfare is a necessary condition; culture is another. Both of them are **very** unlikely to spread in those countries in the next few years/decades. > But in a normal society these people stay in a fringe ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ Yes, this is the operative word. Those societies are NOT normal, by many definitions of normal. By the way, in those societies, a moderate religious leader is far less fascinating than a fundamentalist one. A fundamentalist leader very often has as his ultimate goal the final destruction of the West, ie Evil -- to be achieved in many subtle ways, which may include, but are by no means limited to, incidents such as the WTC, in the long run. > where they belong. It's only at times of repression and difficulty, > when a noticeable chunk of the population is feeling unjustly dealt > with and getting desperate (these are mild words, read about these > countries sometime) that the violent fringe can actually gather a > following. Even now, Bin Laden has only a few thousand in his fold. > The other 23 million or so in Afghanistan are victims; I am not quite sure about this. A large part, yes. And it's/they're fleeing. But many [have] followed the Tal{i,e}ban word... even thought many (?) of them are now fleeing in fear. Without any support, there would not have been any Tal{i,e}ban regime, though. Thanks for trying to dissipate my pessimism. :-) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 23:49: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0168037B41D for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010926064858.YRBC1722.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:48:58 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:14:09 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:52 PM 9/24/2001, you wrote: >Technical Information wrote: > > But even if the CIA was involved in training and arming these people, it > > was NOT done in the name of terrorism. It was made in the interest of > > stopping the spread of Communism, which has been part of our national > > directive for decades now. > >Let me ask you a question - is fighting the spread of Communism any more >just a cause than fighting the spread of Capitalism? It's not a question >of ideology mind you, and please don't take it as such. Just think about >it. The biggest problem I have with Communism is the desire to destroy all capitalist markets, even when it meant using military force. If Communists had historically been content with maintaining the social order of their countries, it might not have registered as such a threat on the radar of other countries. As it was however, it was such a threat that the U.S. decided to counter with its own agenda. At least this is how I was taught the story here in the U.S. At this point, I'm sure many of you will again call me an ignorant, uneducated, CNN-watching American sloth, but my principal three points remain: * There is no justifiable context for the acts of September 11th. * Two weeks later, the U.S. still has taken no action and is seeking the support of many nations worldwide. How this is rash or hotheaded is unclear to me. * I have yet to see the unbiased news source -anywhere-. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 23:49:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF59437B41C for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010926064909.YREL1722.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:49:09 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926023654.022caaa8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:42:44 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010925205128.A70023@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:51 PM 9/25/2001, you wrote: >The rest of the world cares because America's "solution" to the >problem will, likely as not, be to arm some other armed group against >the Taliban (the northern alliance being the most likely candidate), >flood the place with more sophisticated arms and ammunition, and >eventually aim to install some puppet regime there. The catch being >that a puppet regime will last only so long, and meanwhile a >disenchanted population will be growing, another Bin Laden among them, >the difference being that this one is much better armed. Or -- the US >will simply kill so many civilians and trample over so many Islamic >feelings that bin Ladens will arise spontaneously from all over. Even if such a dilemma does exist, I don't see that taking *no* action is an option. If destroying two of the most prominent facilities in America and staggering the global economy into recession wasn't a big enough rush for the surviving conspirators, I can't imagine the rush they'd get if there was no repercussion for it. Sure, it may be a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario for the United States. But if anyone has a better solution to the problem, I'd love to hear it. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 25 23:58:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F11937B40B for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010926065825.MZPM12701.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:58:25 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926025249.022cf588@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:57:51 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010925101800.B40431@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BAFD049.D47F0F66@duth.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:18 AM 9/25/2001, you wrote: >However, at some point America has to (a) accept its responsibility >for the whole mess and (b) take action to prevent it happening again. >I think completing the destruction of the Pentagon and closing down >the CIA would be a good start. I'm sure we can make this happen when every other government shuts down every comparable department and military facility. And then we can all hold hands and sing together while rainbow-colored candies gently shower us from the sky. Let it go, man. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 0:19:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2E937B422 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-26-143.dial.proxad.net [213.228.26.143]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A399E5F7F4 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:19:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 427 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Sep 2001 07:19:08 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:19:08 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926091908.A397@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:21:32AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta said on Sep 26, 2001 at 02:21:32: > > > I've also seen your argument about "they'd have done this anyway" elsewhere. > > Oops, I read my letter again, Oops, from my side: I didn't mean I'd read that argument from you elsewhere -- I meant plenty of others make that argument, though I did have the impression it was what you were saying too. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 1:51:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A3237B41E for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-26-81.dial.proxad.net [213.228.26.81]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98B9AB1DC for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 377 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Sep 2001 08:49:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:49:25 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: fundamentalism (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:21:32AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Long mail, read only if this whole issue does genuinely interest you. Salvo Bartolotta said on Sep 26, 2001 at 02:21:32: > Ooops, my fault, sorry. I was thinking of the "Islamic" leaders > (using religion as a means of goverment, or "instrumentum regni"), > and of [more or less large] unlettered masses following them. Yep, > a good number of people are just victims, I agree. > > > This holds to a varying extent in a few countries, where populations > are needy and -- key factor -- illiterate, so a [more or less great] > number of "religious" leaders teach them fundamentalistic ideas -- > for their own **filthy** political/ideological/pseudoreligious > purposes; which purposes involve, inter alia, that the Western World > is irremediably rotten, etc. You're quite right there, actually. And this is true with India too. In fact, Hindu fundamentalist organisations are growing too; the only good things I see are that (a) as they grow they seem to be somewhat toning down their vile rhetoric to try and attract more "mainstream" people, and (b) even so, they're not succeeding all that much. India's ruling coalition is headed by one such party, but it only stays together because of one man, the prime minister, who's regarded as a "moderate" (a few others are moderates too but not powerful); and that party has a following only in a few states and seems to be losing it there too. As for Muslims in India (India has the second largest population of Muslims in the world, Indonesia being first) -- there's an ongoing debate where Muslim leaders (many of them fitting closely with your description above, actually) claim that successive governments have "neglected" muslims and caused them to stay backward; others retorting that it is the Muslim religious leaders who conspire to keep their illiterate flock in their madrasas, instead of letting them join the mainstream; and the educated, liberal, forward-thinking Muslims (there are *many* of them, in the government and in all walks of life) don't seem to care about their "community" all that much. And, where India (perhaps Pakistan too) is concerned, *this* is the problem. The Muslim masses look to their mullahs for inspiration and not to their scientists, artists, writers or even the forward-looking politicians, while these latter don't make an effort to reach to the masses (well, maybe some of the politicians do, but they're not very successful). It's a deep sociological problem, but today with the increasing penetration of mass media, I'm hoping that the hold of the mullahs will break -- that is, people living in such conditions will realise that there are other things in life to aim for. In Pakistan things became much worse under General Zia's regime; that is when fundamentalism really took off there. I'm not very familiar with Egypt and other north African countries. Unfortunately, most of them haven't been democracies either, so Islamic fundamentalism often, as I understand it, became a front for anti-Government activity (as in Iran). In fact, in Iran, after the revolution, the muslim clergy gained immense power, but the people clearly got tired of it after a while and have been making it known that they want reforms. As I wrote earlier, while women have restrictions on dress and some other things in Iran, in other ways they have much more freedom than in many middle Eastern countries. Perhaps education and literacy levels were much higher in Iran, I don't know. > I believe that 1) the distortion of Islam/any religion has nothing > to do with Islam and with religion at large; 2) these ideas can only > be accepted by **ignorant** and [more or less large] [more or less] > poor masses; 3) most of these religious/political leaders, for a > variety of reasons, wish to keep these populations as ignorant [and > poor] as they can. Partially right on 1: I think every religious text has things in it which seem barbaric from our present-day point of view, and while we can justify moderate behaviour by quoting the Koran, these people can equally well justify their extremism from the same source. I won't argue with them there, since their knowledge of the Koran is obviously vastly greater than mine. Quite right on 2 and 3. > My pessimism arises from the extreme difficulty in attacking the > roots of the problem, viz hunger & ignorance, which constitute ideal > humus for [Islam] fundamentalism and other BS. It can only be done locally, by the more forward looking people in the community itself. Unfortunately such people are getting marginalised in Pakistan, while they barely exist (and hardly ever existed) in Afghanistan. One of the best descriptive articles I've read on Afghanistan, by filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf, is here: http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2001/June/Afghan/index.html It shows you how difficult the problem is. America obviously wants a change of government in Afghanistan, but finding a good replacement and making sure it has popular support will be very difficult, especially if it is perceived as having US backing. Bush is doing the right thing in seeking the support of Muslim countries for his actions. But already it looks like Pakistan is not happy with talk of overthrowing the Taleban. Iran would be quite happy with it, but America will not talk to them; besides Iran has deeper problems with much of Afghanistan anyway (shia v/s sunni). Makhmalbaf's article points out that regional identity is much stronger than national identity in Afghanistan, and the Pakhtuns are the dominant regional tribe. So a pakhtun leader would be the best choice. Pakistan will be bitterly opposed to it however, because the Durand line separating the Pakhtun parts of Pakistan from Afghanistan expired a few years ago, and they are likely to face separatist problems if the Pakhtun "national identity" is strengthened in any case. The article by Rajmohan Gandhi which I sent yesterday suggests that Pakhtun nationalism is, in fact, a stronger force than Islam in those parts. The Northern Alliance is mostly non-Pakhtun, which is why imposing it on the rest of Afghanistan is unlikely ever to be a workable solution. They're talking now of reinstalling 86-year-old King Zahir Shah, which shows how desperate they are. Changing the world is difficult, and change in these societies has to come from within, not be imposed from outside... right now the US has plenty of sympathy, even from governments of Muslim countries, and as long as they are careful to involve other countries, act under the UN banner and not unilaterally, and step very carefully indeed and be prepared for a very long process, we can still be optimistic. Any perception that the US is "invading" Afghanistan, however, will instantly antagonise Muslims everywhere. Bush has certainly learned the hard way the dangers of his unilateralism and the need of support from the rest of the world. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 3:41: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701FE37B411 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8QAegn46785 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA01909 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:42 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926124042.B1370@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> <20010925205128.A70023@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926023654.022caaa8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926023654.022caaa8@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:42:44AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information said on Sep 26, 2001 at 02:42:44: > At 02:51 PM 9/25/2001, you wrote: > >The rest of the world cares because America's "solution" to the > >problem will, likely as not, be to arm some other armed group against > >the Taliban (the northern alliance being the most likely candidate), > >flood the place with more sophisticated arms and ammunition, and > >eventually aim to install some puppet regime there. The catch being > >that a puppet regime will last only so long, and meanwhile a > >disenchanted population will be growing, another Bin Laden among them, > >the difference being that this one is much better armed. Or -- the US > >will simply kill so many civilians and trample over so many Islamic > >feelings that bin Ladens will arise spontaneously from all over. > > Even if such a dilemma does exist, I don't see that taking *no* action is > an option. If destroying two of the most prominent facilities in America > and staggering the global economy into recession wasn't a big enough rush > for the surviving conspirators, I can't imagine the rush they'd get if > there was no repercussion for it. OK, so you can't imagine any other form of action than what I described. Hopefully the people making the war plans have better imaginations. How about this (it probably won't please everyone still, but it will make a big difference from past history and won't offend too many people either). 1. Publish the proof you (the US) claim to have, against Bin Laden/Taleban, as justification for an attack. Don't just keep saying "We know he's guilty but we're not going to tell you why." 2. Attack with your own troops. Don't use and arm local gunmen and militia. Don't take part in civil wars. Just do what you want to do, no more. 3. After it is all done and you have got bin Laden and his associates, *withdraw*. Don't hang around where you aren't wanted. Don't try and support some unpopular puppet regime thinking it is in your own interests. It's not. And while you're about it, withdraw from all the other military installations in the middle east and around the world, too. Do that right now, it will be viewed very positively and bin Laden's major grudge against the US will be gone. Yes, this will be a long process. Anything will be a long process, except carpet bombing and flattening the whole country. (I hope that's not what you want.) Yes, it will mean lives of American soldiers. Well, I happen to think the lives of a few hundred American soldiers aren't more valuable than the lives of a few hundred thousand Afghan civilians. Besides, the soldiers chose that life; the civilians didn't. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 3:50:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22FE537B42C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8QAokn48004 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:50:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA02610 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:50:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:50:46 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:14:09AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information said on Sep 26, 2001 at 02:14:09: > > * I have yet to see the unbiased news source -anywhere-. As I said to you in a longer, personal mail which bounced because your mailserver thinks it's spam -- every writer is biased. However, writers in mainstream media in other countries exhibit different kinds of biases, so you get a larger picture. In America, unless you read smaller independent stuff like znet, you'll find it hard to find any difference of views at all. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 4: 5:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAD437B40D for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 04:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA30591; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:05:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:05:19 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 12:50:46PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I promised myself I wasn't going to get into this, but it's far more interesting than Yet Another Rewrite of Chapter 6... Interesting article at http://reason.com/hod/jw092101.html on six options that the US could follow. Seems fairly well thought-out, a nice read at least. > > * I have yet to see the unbiased news source -anywhere-. It's difficult to be unbiased about the murder of 6,000 people; you're either for it or against it. :-( ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 4:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFC937B430 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 04:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8QBKMn50531 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:20:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA03759 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:20:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:20:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Michael Lucas Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 07:05:19AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Lucas said on Sep 26, 2001 at 07:05:19: > > Interesting article at > > http://reason.com/hod/jw092101.html Very good read, thanks for the reference. I do hope people aren't serious about the Strangelove option. But one never knows. I think the author is quite right that America should combine an effective retaliation with "changing their own ways" -- but with the responses from people in the military cited there (the middle east should "glow" with radiation) it's clear that's not going to happen, not the changing of ways bit. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 4:29:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC11037B41B for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 04:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA30672; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:29:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:29:15 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:20:22PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:20:22PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > retaliation with "changing their own ways" -- but with the responses > from people in the military cited there (the middle east should "glow" > with radiation) it's clear that's not going to happen, not the > changing of ways bit. No, but every day we don't means that hope hasn't been quashed yet. I truly hope we're going for Kojak or Bronson, but could easily live with Bugs Bunny. It's too late for Caesar to be effective -- we could have instituted a Pax Americana in 1945, but not today. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 5: 5: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ECB37B41C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 05:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8QC52n55000 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:05:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA05617 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:05:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:05:02 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Michael Lucas Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Another article, from the "other side" Message-ID: <20010926140502.I1370@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 07:29:15AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,558187,00.html by a Pakistani journalist who has met bin Laden. There was, however, one significant element missing from his list of grievances: he did not say anything about the idea of America - its rights, its freedoms, its prosperity. It was in American foreign policy that he saw the greatest threat to Islam. Indeed, he criticised the west for supporting dictators and authoritarian regimes in Islamic countries simply because it suited their interests. Which is what America just refuses to realise. They virtuously call it a "cowardly" attack on "democracy and freedom" -- as if he or his followers care about how US citizens live their lives. And, on this list and elsewhere, it seems that too many Americans have this idea that to understand the man and his motivations is to condone the attacks. So they don't even want to know. I don't follow this. Even if the only thing you read is pulp thriller fiction, isn't it always considered important to understand the enemy? Isn't it even possible to condemn the attacks and at the same time condemn the policies that have led to such huge resentment in so many parts of the world? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 10:56:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C16337B401 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.184.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.184]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12082; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:56:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Sorry for the pessimism. Am I missing something? > > Yes, you're missing a *lot* by apparently characterising the general > population of Afghanistan as "cavemen". I've also seen your argument > about "they'd have done this anyway" elsewhere. It's bullshit. Every > society has its share of fringe lunatics: America has its Jerry > Falwell too. But in a normal society these people stay in a fringe > where they belong. It's only at times of repression and difficulty, > when a noticeable chunk of the population is feeling unjustly dealt > with and getting desperate (these are mild words, read about these > countries sometime) that the violent fringe can actually gather a > following. Even now, Bin Laden has only a few thousand in his fold. > The other 23 million or so in Afghanistan are victims; they are > literally starving to death, and in between they are trying to escape > the violence. The unstated assumption here is that it is possible to please all such people simultaneously, and therefore wend a safe path through the human socio-political minefield, without offending anyone. Even if the U.S. were to completely ignore its own national best interestests, and cringe in fear while rushing to placate every potential terrorist before they become angry enough to attack, pleasing everyone would be impossible. Trying to do this would put the U.S. in the position of the battered spouses, who blame themselves for the beatings they receive from their partners. I maintain that it's not possible to both support Israel to keep the Israeli's from feeling abandoned, and germinating their own terrorists, and to not support Israel, so that the current terrorist fundamentalists are satisfied and thus they do not engage in future attacks. In other words, to not act is also an action, and there are factions who believe that there is no such thing as a middle ground. Therefore, the U.S. has no choice but to take the path that its conscience dictates, and deal with the consequences that being true to itself brings. Perhaps, as you argue, the attack was a consequence of U.S. foreign policy. If so, then the path is clear: and it does not include permitting others to dictate foreign policy. > Remaining history is more recent. The Iraq thing was provoked by > Saddam Hussein, who invaded Kuwait, and Bush Sr had the support of > most of the Muslim world in liberating them. Where the US went wrong > was in the continued bombings and embargo on Iraq for ten years > afterwards, which did not hurt Saddam at all, caused untold suffering > on his people, and convinced most Arabs that the US does not value > Arab lives at all. The embargo does not extend to food or medical supplies. If Iraq has chosen to redirect permitted aid, such that it does not reach its intended destination, then the suffering of their people is on their own head, not that of those participating in the embargo. You might as well blame the U.S. for the famine in Ethiopia, where the ruling military frequently takes relief supplies intended for the population of Ethiopia, and redirects them to military personnel and/or sells the supplies to neighboring countries, and then uses the funds to purchase military equipment and munitions. > The Afghan Mujahedin were, as we already > discussed, funded by the CIA, and then dropped by them, as were the > Pakistan military, leading a Pakistani general to be quoted recently > as saying "The US thinks we are like a condom: they can just use us > and then throw us away." The roots of this present militancy are as > much as in the extremist elements in Pakistan as in Afghanistan. I have heard other Indian nationals claim that the Taliban were merely puppets of the Pakistani government. I think that India's long standing conflict with Pakistan must color these views. The problems between India and Pakistan started with the end of British colonialism, when the two countries started self-segregating along religious boundaries, for no reason other than religious intolerance on both sides. This self-segregation has continued to the point where the countries are now sharply divided upon religious lines. > And, of course, there's America's consistent "right or wrong" > support and immense financial aid to Israel, an issue I won't > even bother getting into. Good, then we won't have to talk about the fact that Israel was established as part of reparations for the crimes of World War II, or justify the U.S. keeping true to its agreements, even if other countries do not. > In short, it is this sort of thing, accumulated over years and years, > which gives the violent fringe lunatics their chance at gathering a > following and converting their talk to action. It is only a desperate > people who would think of such a horrendous thing as the September 11 > events. And, as I've said earlier, it looks like the upcoming US > actions are going to follow the same pattern. Please don't attempt to predict the U.S. until you understand it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 11:26:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5EB37B418 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8QIQVN01246 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:26:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA21790 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:26:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:26:30 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 10:56:56AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let me say one thing I should have said earlier: I realise, belatedly, that most Americans are not in a frame of mind to appreciate hearing their governments being criticised, and this is not the right time for me to have done so. I would not have thought of doing it even a week ago. Also, I like and admire many aspects of America, and I liked the Americans whom I've met so far. The liking does not extend to the foreign policy, but I should have kept quiet for now. That said, I'll reply to Terry's mail anyway... Terry Lambert said on Sep 26, 2001 at 10:56:56: > > > > Yes, you're missing a *lot* by apparently characterising the general > > population of Afghanistan as "cavemen". I've also seen your argument > > about "they'd have done this anyway" elsewhere. It's bullshit. Every > > society has its share of fringe lunatics: America has its Jerry > > Falwell too. But in a normal society these people stay in a fringe > > where they belong. It's only at times of repression and difficulty, > > when a noticeable chunk of the population is feeling unjustly dealt > > with and getting desperate (these are mild words, read about these > > countries sometime) that the violent fringe can actually gather a > > following. Even now, Bin Laden has only a few thousand in his fold. > > The other 23 million or so in Afghanistan are victims; they are > > literally starving to death, and in between they are trying to escape > > the violence. > > The unstated assumption here is that it is possible to please > all such people simultaneously, I don't think there was any assumption there about pleasing anyone. My point was that bin Laden and his crowd are a minority, even among the middle Eastern population; and, if America had not been a prosperous country and if people had been starving, faced with foreign occupation, and suffered a general sense of injustice all the time, someone like David Duke would have a much greater following than he does today: probably greater than bin Laden does today, and he would be advocating much more extreme violence than he does right now, being toned down only by fear of US law. That paragraph was not a direct reference to America, only a reference to conditions in which such fanatics can arise. > Even if the U.S. were to completely ignore its own national > best interestests, and cringe in fear while rushing to placate > every potential terrorist before they become angry enough to > attack, pleasing everyone would be impossible. There is no question of placating. Just don't meddle in their affairs, they don't concern you. That is the only message here. Of course, now that they have struck, the US is more or less obliged to strike back, but it should be done *extremely* carefully. But it's a good time for the US to reconsider its involvements with other shady regimes and other internal problems all over the world. > Trying to do this would put the U.S. in the position of the > battered spouses, who blame themselves for the beatings they > receive from their partners. Except that the US is not the spouse of the middle east. Except, perhaps, for Israel. > I maintain that it's not possible to both support Israel to > keep the Israeli's from feeling abandoned, and germinating > their own terrorists, and to not support Israel, so that the > current terrorist fundamentalists are satisfied and thus they > do not engage in future attacks. But the Israel thing doesn't seem to have been uppermost on Osama's mind. Why must the US continue to meddle in all those other countries? (You're also making some shocking implications above -- ie, that the US feels it necessary to support Israel in all circumstances regardless of moral positions, and that the US feels that if it does not support Israel, Israeli terrorists will attack the US, so it's an emotional blackmail involved. But I'm not sure I want to find out more on this.) > Perhaps, as you argue, the attack was a consequence of U.S. > foreign policy. If so, then the path is clear: and it does > not include permitting others to dictate foreign policy. In that case, why is the US seeking to gain the support of countries all over the world now? > > Remaining history is more recent. The Iraq thing was provoked by > > Saddam Hussein, who invaded Kuwait, and Bush Sr had the support of > > most of the Muslim world in liberating them. Where the US went wrong > > was in the continued bombings and embargo on Iraq for ten years > > afterwards, which did not hurt Saddam at all, caused untold suffering > > on his people, and convinced most Arabs that the US does not value > > Arab lives at all. > > The embargo does not extend to food or medical supplies. Excuse me. It included trade, and that includes trade in medicines and food. There was/is a UN "food for oil" scheme, but the US fought tooth and nail to prevent countries (including India) from using it to trade with Iraq. India had the food, and wanted the oil, and did trade, but it involved plenty of nastiness. Iraqi officials may also have pilfered what food did reach Iraq, but that is not the whole story at all. Even if it was, > If Iraq > has chosen to redirect permitted aid, such that it does not reach > its intended destination, then the suffering of their people is on > their own head, not that of those participating in the embargo. That is precisely the attitude that gets the US so widely disliked. "I'll embargo you, but I'll give you some bags of rice on humanitarian grounds, now if your people starve it's your fault." I dislike it enough coming from US bureaucrats, but I absolutely detest it coming from an ordinary American; I really hope you're not representative. > > The Afghan Mujahedin were, as we already > > discussed, funded by the CIA, and then dropped by them, as were the > > Pakistan military, leading a Pakistani general to be quoted recently > > as saying "The US thinks we are like a condom: they can just use us > > and then throw us away." The roots of this present militancy are as > > much as in the extremist elements in Pakistan as in Afghanistan. > > I have heard other Indian nationals claim that the Taliban were > merely puppets of the Pakistani government. Some do claim that; they, in their present form, are undoubtedly *creations* of the Pakistan government, which is now the only country to continue to recognise them. How much control they have is hard to say. > I think that India's > long standing conflict with Pakistan must color these views. Whose views? The puppet view, or the condom view, or my views in these emails? > The > problems between India and Pakistan started with the end of British > colonialism, when the two countries started self-segregating along > religious boundaries, for no reason other than religious intolerance > on both sides. This self-segregation has continued to the point > where the countries are now sharply divided upon religious lines. Ah, now you're trying to know more about India than I do. As a matter of fact, India has more muslims than Pakistan does, and on the whole there is no more trouble (far less, indeed) than there is between, say, Catholics and Protestants in the UK. India has always rejected the "two-nation theory" (the theory that Hindus and Muslims can't get along) and with good reason. In fact the head of the Indian missile programme is a Muslim (Abdul Kalam). So are any number of other prominent people, in all walks of life, including many journalists; I can point you to writings by some of them if you like. Also plenty of Christians, Sikhs and others. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 11:40:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C1437B42B for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8QIeSN02534 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA22302 ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:40:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:40:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 08:26:30PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Sep 26, 2001 at 20:26:30: > > > Remaining history is more recent. The Iraq thing was provoked by > > > Saddam Hussein, who invaded Kuwait, and Bush Sr had the support of > > > most of the Muslim world in liberating them. Where the US went wrong > > > was in the continued bombings and embargo on Iraq for ten years > > > afterwards, which did not hurt Saddam at all, caused untold suffering > > > on his people, and convinced most Arabs that the US does not value > > > Arab lives at all. > > > > The embargo does not extend to food or medical supplies. > > Excuse me. It included trade, and that includes trade in medicines > and food. There was/is a UN "food for oil" scheme, but the US fought > tooth and nail to prevent countries (including India) from using it to > trade with Iraq. For further reading, see http://members.tripod.com/~NH_PEACE_ACTION/Dispell_myths.htm I don't know about everything listed there, but from what I've read in various places before, what they say about the food situation is substantially true, and so is what they say about Saddam Hussein's spending on public infrastructure and improving the lives of his people. The same is true of Gadhafi in Libya, by the way. And neither of them is an Islamic fundamentalist. It doesn't mean they're nice guys, but there are far uglier people in that neighbourhood. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 17:18:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1967E37B416 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 47399 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2001 00:18:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 27 Sep 2001 00:18:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3BB27025.52611CA7@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:17:41 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > If my former employee shoots my neighbor, I'm not going to care > whether he was my former employee or not. If you trained your employee to shoot, and then included a healthy supply of weapons in his severance package (and the address of a mate who could continue to supply him with guns cheap when those ones run out), can you really claim no responsibility or involvement when he shoots your neighbour? -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 22:11:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214E437B40A for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010927051153.ICLF13121.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:11:53 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927000022.017ede48@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:11:43 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010926124042.B1370@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926023654.022caaa8@threespace.com> <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> <20010925205128.A70023@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926023654.022caaa8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well based on this I suppose your imagination and mine are about on par, because you haven't really proposed anything that I haven't already thought of. And I assume that our leaders are probably well aware of the same. And I suppose that's the difference in our lines of thought. Your fears are based on the notion that the U.S. is eventually going to employ some heavy-handed, self-serving tactics that will destroy Afghanistan if not the whole region. And though I don't believe your fears are unfounded, I, on the other hand, am encouraged by the restraint and use of diplomatic channels to date. (15.5 counter-strike free days and counting.) I think that #1 (below) will happen in due time; I haven't seen any indication that the U.S. has asked for any other nations troops/arms in #2 (though some have been offered by other nations); and I think the American public would agree with #3. (These people who serve in the military do have families that want them home.) I'm just giving a little more credit to our leaders right now than you are, I suppose. But only time will tell at this point. --Chip Morton At 06:40 AM 9/26/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >OK, so you can't imagine any other form of action than what I described. >Hopefully the people making the war plans have better imaginations. > >How about this (it probably won't please everyone still, but it will >make a big difference from past history and won't offend too many >people either). > >1. Publish the proof you (the US) claim to have, against Bin > Laden/Taleban, as justification for an attack. Don't just keep saying > "We know he's guilty but we're not going to tell you why." > >2. Attack with your own troops. Don't use and arm local gunmen and > militia. Don't take part in civil wars. Just do what you want to do, > no more. > >3. After it is all done and you have got bin Laden and his > associates, *withdraw*. Don't hang around where you aren't wanted. > Don't try and support some unpopular puppet regime thinking it is in > your own interests. It's not. And while you're about it, withdraw > from all the other military installations in the middle east and > around the world, too. Do that right now, it will be viewed very > positively and bin Laden's major grudge against the US will be gone. > >Yes, this will be a long process. Anything will be a long process, >except carpet bombing and flattening the whole country. (I hope >that's not what you want.) Yes, it will mean lives of American >soldiers. Well, I happen to think the lives of a few hundred American >soldiers aren't more valuable than the lives of a few hundred thousand >Afghan civilians. Besides, the soldiers chose that life; the >civilians didn't. > >- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 26 22:12:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C4A37B40C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010927051213.ICPJ13121.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:12:13 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:10:36 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" In-Reply-To: <20010926140502.I1370@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think any Americans have a problem asking the question "How could this man have gotten to the point of doing such a horrible thing?" (Quite the contrary, the news here is chock full of stories about the history of bin Laden and al Qaida.) The problem I have is the context in which you ask the question as if the answer should change the outrage we feel over the event. When bin Laden metes out his own brand of justice against the U.S. for occupying Saudi land, you say "The U.S. should seriously look at the policies that led to this attack." When the U.S. lines up to mete out it's justice against those who perpetrated the act, you cry Foul! and call us hotheaded. The two just don't jibe. Personally though, while I think it's possible to condemn U.S. foreign policy and terrorism against the U.S., I feel like I'm reading far too much of the former and far too little of the latter. --Chip Morton At 08:05 AM 9/26/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >And, on this list and elsewhere, it seems that too many Americans have >this idea that to understand the man and his motivations is to condone >the attacks. So they don't even want to know. I don't follow this. >Even if the only thing you read is pulp thriller fiction, isn't it >always considered important to understand the enemy? Isn't it even >possible to condemn the attacks and at the same time condemn the >policies that have led to such huge resentment in so many parts of the >world? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 1:49:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C6B37B430; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.247.141.88.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.141.88]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03716; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f8R8mcA78049; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:48:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 01:48:37 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Robert Watson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: per-jail securelevels -- uncommited patches: ipf, kame, kern_linker.c Message-ID: <20010927014837.D360@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 05:17:36PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 05:17:36PM -0400, Robert Watson wrote: [SNIP] > o kern/kern_linker.c - this code makes securelevel checks without access [snip] > really make a difference, since jail'd processes couldn't load kernel > modules anyway. I should, however, be fixed. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project > robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services Now, now. No reason to get that down on yourself about that bug, Robert. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 4:14:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FC637B40A for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 04:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RBENN78120 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:14:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA54505 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:14:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:14:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010927131423.B54168@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927002458.01819e28@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927002458.01819e28@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:32:19AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information said on Sep 27, 2001 at 00:32:19: > Sorry about the bounced mail. I was/am getting beat to death with spam > from Asia at one point, and since I had no direct communcations with anyone > from there, it was easiest just to block all mail from that > continent. But I'm not on that continent. I'm in France, and I tried sending it to you from my usual account here with the default settings including my French email address in the From: header, and it bounced anyway. So the only way I can mail you is through the -chat list. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 5:14:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B1E37B415 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RCETN84558 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:14:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA56621 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:14:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:14:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Craig Harding Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010927141423.E54588@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> <3BB27025.52611CA7@outpost.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB27025.52611CA7@outpost.co.nz>; from crh@outpost.co.nz on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:17:41PM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig Harding said on Sep 27, 2001 at 12:17:41: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > If my former employee shoots my neighbor, I'm not going to care > > whether he was my former employee or not. > > If you trained your employee to shoot, and then included a healthy > supply of weapons in his severance package (and the address of a mate > who could continue to supply him with guns cheap when those ones run > out), can you really claim no responsibility or involvement when he > shoots your neighbour? Stated that way, it all looks familiar now. Though your question seems rhetorical to the rest of the world, many Americans will answer "indeed, they can claim no responsibility." This is the familiar gun-control debate again. The manufacture, supply, and free sale of guns have no connection with violence, and there is nothing wrong with bearing arms: indeed, it's your constitutional right. What your employee did with those weapons is his business, not yours. On the other hand, if you were distributing not guns, but programs to let the user read e-books in a manner not authorised by the manufacturer -- *that's* a different matter entirely. That can land you in jail for up to 25 years, even if you're from another country, and did this work there, where it's legal. Aarrgh. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 5:29:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934A937B415 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp223.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.223]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id WAA32523; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:29:08 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp223.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.223] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8QDrbG22971; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:53:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200109261353.f8QDrbG22971@dungeon.home> To: "Thyer, Matthew" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load References: <3BAEEE9E.B8DCDD3C@dsto.defence.gov.au> In-Reply-To: <3BAEEE9E.B8DCDD3C@dsto.defence.gov.au> from "Thyer, Matthew" at "Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:28:15 +0000" Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:53:37 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 24th September 2001, "Thyer, Matthew" wrote: > IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence > Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the > CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are > requested to contact the sender and delete the email. Firstly I must say, "Ha! Ha! Ha! HA! HA! !!" Secondly, does your employer really think they own email even in the recipient's mailbox? I mean, I've got a copy of your email. Does that mean DSTO will come and take it back one day? Kick my door in and take all my gear? "Just a precaution, sir! You might have some of our mail." Or is it just useless lawyer bluster wasting my precious existence? I thought so. Stephen. PS I don't use NIS so I have no idea about your FreeBSD problem. Sorry. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 5:51:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF0637B50C for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746301D1A8; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:51:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:16:33 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <8090000.1001510193@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Wednesday, September 26, 2001 02:14:09 -0400 Technical Information wrote: > The biggest problem I have with Communism is the desire to destroy all > capitalist markets, even when it meant using military force. If > Communists had historically been content with maintaining the social > order of their countries, it might not have registered as such a threat > on the radar of other countries. As it was however, it was such a threat > that the U.S. decided to counter with its own agenda. You should differentiate between communism and the USSR. Communism is an idealogy and it is not one that demands that military force be used to overthrow capitalist markets. It's the same distinction you have to make with Islam and terrorists. One is an idealogy, the other is a group of individuals who carry out actions in the name of that idealogy. The idealogies don't always support the actions that some individuals perform. Paul Richards To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 6:13:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D6737B405 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15mayu-000Hhh-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:13:36 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f8RDDYR44400 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:13:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:13:33 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Style question: what guidelines do you personally follow to balance readability vs efficiency of source code? Can lack of blank lines and other whitespace easily become an impediment to readability? When (IYO) is there TOO much? One of the software engineers I work with (from mainframe/DOS days) has his code spread out so thin, you can page down 3 or 4 pages before you start to see meaningful code, and he seems to skip a line after almost every line of code. Not to mention spaces before and after every parenthesis, brace, or bracket. It seems this would make it easy to read the first time, but a nuisance after that. What do you think? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 6:41:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FFC37B425 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp223.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.223]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA00680; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:41:09 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp223.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.223] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8RDjn116287; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:45:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> To: Technical Information Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" References: <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> from Technical Information at "Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:10:36 +0000" Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:45:49 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 27th September 2001, Technical Information wrote: >I don't think any Americans have a problem asking the question "How could >this man have gotten to the point of doing such a horrible thing?" (Quite >the contrary, the news here is chock full of stories about the history of >bin Laden and al Qaida.) Do they discuss the earlier American funding for bin Laden and American funding of the Taliban (as recently as May this year)? I'm genuinely curious. I'm not trying to argue any particular point here. I'm quite interested in how much (or how little) the American public is being manipulated. >When bin Laden metes out his own brand of justice against the U.S. for >occupying Saudi land, you say "The U.S. should seriously look at the >policies that led to this attack." Yes they should. I'm an outsider (and I still think there is an "outside" to this situation, despite what my government tells me), and I've seen the US interfere in sovereign countries all over the place. I believe that only a radical change in US foreign policy has any chance of reducing anti-American attacks. I think only olive branches can succeed. >When the U.S. lines up to mete out it's justice against those who >perpetrated the act, you cry Foul! and call us hotheaded. The two just >don't jibe. Hit just the perpetrators, and the world will cheer, and me with everyone. This is likely to be a couple dozen people, at most, and best done in a court. But the most likely scenario is that thousands more innocent civilians will die, and a few US politicians will pat themselves on the back, because war is good for votes. If I thought there was any chance that justice could be done with a military campaign, I would feel a lot better. Or are you suggesting that it's just "an eye for an eye" after all? >Personally though, while I think it's possible to condemn U.S. foreign >policy and terrorism against the U.S., I feel like I'm reading far too much >of the former and far too little of the latter. As I said, I think the only way to reduce terrorism is to change your foreign policy. That might be why you read about it so much. Others have said the same as I have. Of course, many nations should change their aggressive foreign policies, but the US could be the leaders. I rate the chances low, unfortunately. Regards, and sympathy, Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 7:25:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE4537B421 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010927142541.NNFU24328.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:25:41 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:25:33 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" In-Reply-To: <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:45 AM 9/27/2001, Stephen McKay wrote: >Do they discuss the earlier American funding for bin Laden and American >funding of the Taliban (as recently as May this year)? I'm genuinely >curious. I'm not trying to argue any particular point here. I'm quite >interested in how much (or how little) the American public is being >manipulated. I didn't have time to do a thorough search, but I quickly found the following link. I used CNN because it's apparently the favorite news source of everyone on this list. http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/15/amanpour.taliban/index.html While this short blurb doesn't mention the extent of the financial support, it makes no secret of it. And I don't think anyone has tried to make secret of it. In fact, I think it just raises most Americans' ire that much more to think of al Qaida's turning on us like this. >As I said, I think the only way to reduce terrorism is to change your >foreign policy. That might be why you read about it so much. Others >have said the same as I have. > >Of course, many nations should change their aggressive foreign policies, >but the US could be the leaders. I rate the chances low, unfortunately. I rewrote this paragraph four times before I finally decided to just say this: Many of the same countries and governments that decry U.S. involvement in their affairs are quick to take funds/assistance from the U.S. or attempt to do trade with us. And in my mind, that's completely hypocritical. You can't have it both ways. That may sound cynical or arrogant, but perhaps this editorial piece can state the sentiment more clearly. http://threespace.com/ksmm/america.html --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 8: 3: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF4337B448 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f8RF0Oq29767; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:00:26 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:26:05 +0200 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: code density vs readability Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:13 PM +0100 9/27/01, j mckitrick wrote: > what guidelines do you personally follow to balance readability vs > efficiency of source code? Whatever feels right. ;-) > Can lack of blank lines and other whitespace easily become an impediment to > readability? When (IYO) is there TOO much? Yup, this can be a problem. Myself, I see it like writing prose. I don't put a blank line between every sentence, only between paragraphs. However, as verbose as I am, sometimes even just a single sentence is several lines long, and becomes a paragraph in and of itself. In C, I also like to put opening and closing braces on a line by themselves, in a more Pascal-like style as opposed to classic K&R style. > One of the software engineers I work with (from mainframe/DOS days) has his > code spread out so thin, you can page down 3 or 4 pages before you start to > see meaningful code, and he seems to skip a line after almost every line of > code. Not to mention spaces before and after every parenthesis, brace, or > bracket. It seems this would make it easy to read the first time, but a > nuisance after that. If it's so bad, you can always run it through a program to reformat it afterwards. Indeed, I believe that the judicious use of formatting programs can help set a common project-wide "style" to which all code will comply, because all code gets fed through the formatter before being submitted. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 8:13:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D36837B417 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RFDCN07426 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:13:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA64234 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:13:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:13:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" Message-ID: <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 10:25:33AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information said on Sep 27, 2001 at 10:25:33: > >As I said, I think the only way to reduce terrorism is to change your > >foreign policy. That might be why you read about it so much. Others > >have said the same as I have. > > > >Of course, many nations should change their aggressive foreign policies, > >but the US could be the leaders. I rate the chances low, unfortunately. > > I rewrote this paragraph four times before I finally decided to just say > this: Many of the same countries and governments that decry U.S. > involvement in their affairs are quick to take funds/assistance from the > U.S. or attempt to do trade with us. And in my mind, that's completely > hypocritical. You can't have it both ways. I don't see why not. Yes, the US has its good, helpful, generous side. It also has its meddlesome, underhanded, disruptive foreign policy side. (At least, that's the uncritical way of looking at it. The more cynical would say that the US gives assistance to foreign countries to gain more control over them; I've read such accusations of the US policy towards Israel, among others -- ie, "if you don't obey us, we'll cut off the funding".) Be that as it may, I don't see what's wrong with criticising the bad points (and there is much to criticise), while praising the good (yes, there's much to praise too). As for trade: what's that got to do with anything? > That may sound cynical or arrogant, but perhaps this editorial piece can > state the sentiment more clearly. > > http://threespace.com/ksmm/america.html For once, this "someone sent me an email" thing is actually true. (Note the year, though: 1973, not mentioned on your link.) A more official version can be found at http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/ccf/news/unique/am_text.html Personally, I think he's largely correct, but just a bit overboard. I don't know what it was like in 1973, but these days, when disaster strikes somewhere, everyone helps. Heck, when there was an earthquake in Gujarat (India) last year, Pakistan too sent a few planeloads of relief material. And I've read of several foreign countries sending assistance to the US for the current disaster. As for railway construction/repair, I don't think the Americans did it for free: they did it as paid consultants/engineers. If nobody "loaned the US an old caboose" for the US railroads, well, the US probably didn't ask. As for the man on the moon... that was a part of the race with the Soviets, who did a lot with space exploration too (they were first with nearly every other milestone). Yes, the US do spearhead the economy of the world, they are at the technological cutting edge. In terms of economic policy, and also in terms of the educational system (not mentioned by Sinclair, I think), the US unquestionably got it right and everyone else is lagging far behind. But I don't think that means one should not criticise the foreign policy. And I certainly don't think the foreign policy is justified by, or has any connection whatever with, these things. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 8:15:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801C137B42A for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:15:42 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:15:41 -0700 In-Reply-To: <8090000.1001510193@lobster.originative.co.uk> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010927151542.AAA26017@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:16:33 +0100, Paul Richards wrote: >> The biggest problem I have with Communism is the desire to= destroy all >>capitalist markets, even when it meant using military force. = If >>Communists had historically been content with maintaining the= social order >>of their countries, it might not have registered as such a= threat on the >>radar of other countries. As it was however, it was such a= threat that >>the U.S. decided to counter with its own agenda. >You should differentiate between communism and the USSR.= Communism is an >idealogy and it is not one that demands that military force be= used to >overthrow capitalist markets. =09Any ideology that includes the notion that private property is= inherently coercive can be used to justify the use of force against those= who practice it. >The idealogies don't always support the actions that some= individuals >perform. =09Often only because of other errors in the ideology. For example,= if some ideology claimed that having blonde hair was a crime comparable= to murder, you can blame that ideology for justifying the killing or= imprisoning of blonde people, even if that ideology also includes complete= pacifism and the notion that only god can punish murders. The comission of a crime= comparable to murder can reasonably justify the use of retaliatory lethal= force, and thus so can the ideology even if it includes other unreasonable= elements. =09You can't have two errors that cancel each other out and weigh= that to the credit of the ideology. It takes full moral responsibility for= every error in it individually. =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 8:15:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bubo.vslib.cz (bubo.vslib.cz [147.230.16.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A6937B505 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from A410A (a410a.kolej.vslib.cz [147.230.152.17]) by bubo.vslib.cz (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C4A580BE for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:15:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <010401c14767$88f44d00$1198e693@kolej.vslib.cz> From: "Martin Vana" To: Subject: SSH Shell account Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:17:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0101_01C14778.4C5B8B40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01C14778.4C5B8B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi,=20 im behind a tough firewall and port 23(telnet) is disabled. 22(SSH) is enabled but i cant find any shell account provider that has it open(22) = and working there is always message "protocol mismatch".=20 Can you help me? ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01C14778.4C5B8B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hi,
im behind a tough firewall and port = 23(telnet) is=20 disabled. 22(SSH) is
enabled but i cant find any shell = account provider=20 that has it open(22) and working there is always message "protocol = mismatch".=20
Can you help me?
 
------=_NextPart_000_0101_01C14778.4C5B8B40-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 8:53:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A4737B449 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532D11D169; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:53:01 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:53:01 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: David Schwartz , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20270000.1001605981@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010927151542.AAA26017@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> References: <20010927151542.AAA26017@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Thursday, September 27, 2001 08:15:41 -0700 David Schwartz wrote: > > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:16:33 +0100, Paul Richards wrote: > >>> The biggest problem I have with Communism is the desire to destroy all >>> capitalist markets, even when it meant using military force. If >>> Communists had historically been content with maintaining the social >>> order of their countries, it might not have registered as such a threat >>> on the radar of other countries. As it was however, it was such a >>> threat that the U.S. decided to counter with its own agenda. > >> You should differentiate between communism and the USSR. Communism is an >> idealogy and it is not one that demands that military force be used to >> overthrow capitalist markets. > > Any ideology that includes the notion that private property is > inherently coercive can be used to justify the use of force against > those who practice it. Umm, not related to my point below, but where does communism state that private property is "coercive"? >> The idealogies don't always support the actions that some individuals >> perform. > > Often only because of other errors in the ideology. For example, if some > ideology claimed that having blonde hair was a crime comparable to > murder, you can blame that ideology for justifying the killing or > imprisoning of blonde people, even if that ideology also includes > complete pacifism and the notion that only god can punish murders. The If there was an ideology that said having blonde hair was a crime but that violent actions were evil then it is not the fault of the ideology for violence against people with blonde hair since those perpetrating the violence are not believers in the ideology, they're just haters of people with blonde hair who have picked out that one piece of someone elses ideology to justify their actions. That is very relevant to the current situation. > comission of a crime comparable to murder can reasonably justify the use > of retaliatory lethal force, and thus so can the ideology even if it > includes other unreasonable elements. You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone elses, that's not a valid course of debate. Your own ideology says that a crime comparable to murder justifies the use of retaliatory force but you're drawing that opinion from your own idealogy, not the one you're criticising for having an opinion on blondes that you disagree with. Don't assume that some other ideology that equates certain acts to murder will also have the same view that muder justifies retaliatory force. To use our silly model, if being blonde is equivalent to being a murderer it does not follow that being blonde deserves the death penalty. The idealogy can be pacifist and view all such crimes as issues to be dealt with in a peacable manner. Dye blondes to be brunette, council murderers until they reform etc. You may not agree with the beliefs of this "idealogy" but you can't pick the bits you don't like in isolation and then apply your ideaology to come to a conclusion, any ideaology has to be viewed as a whole. When you do that you may find that defining blondes to be murders might not seem as abhorrent as it would if you did it within your idealogy, because the way the ideaology deals with murderers is different to yours. (I didn't pick this silly example, apologies to offended blondes). Paul Richards To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 10:21:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slackerbsd.org (cn434050-d.wall1.pa.home.com [24.40.72.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 274D537B421 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 44831 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Sep 2001 17:24:38 -0000 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:24:38 -0400 From: Carl Schmidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" Message-ID: <20010927132438.A42742@slackerbsd.org> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt References: <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="envbJBWh7q8WU6mo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-PGP-Key: http://slackerbsd.org/~carl/carl_schmidt.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 05:13:12PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >=20 > Yes, the US do spearhead the economy of the world, they are at the > technological cutting edge. In terms of economic policy, and also in > terms of the educational system (not mentioned by Sinclair, I think), > the US unquestionably got it right and everyone else is lagging far > behind. But I don't think that means one should not criticise the > foreign policy. And I certainly don't think the foreign policy is > justified by, or has any connection whatever with, these things. >=20 Oi. We most certainly do not lead the world in education. We don't pay teachers enough and when it comes time for teachers to take a stand they're considered ungrateful people. We don't promote individual thought - we inst= all defined thought. We have a select few really nice/good colleges that your average citizen could benefit from but cannot afford. It is my opinion that many European countries do it better. It's really jus= t a feeling since I haven't had the opportunity to see it in action so I could = be wrong. I have seen and gone through the U.S.A. educational system. George B= ush can say all he wants about wanting to help the educational system but I dou= bt his ability and I doubt his assistants ability to actually do something radically different about the problem. There are a lot of illiterate people in this country and there are a lot of people that can't do simple maths - I am one of those that has a hard time with math. I started out great in elementary school as a so-called 'gifted' child but it all went downhill af= ter that. Was it teenage rebellion? Doubt it. I never rebelled against anything when I was younger. I was an average catholic school kid with no clue about the real world and only knew what his teachers and parents told him. This is not the way to make kids smart by telling them what to think. But enough about that. There are probably whole books written on the subject of education failures and I won't attempt to sum all the problems up in one email. This is largely off-topic from the subject but you did mention it so= I figured why not? Oh and if you consider running a nation on capitalism to be 'good economic policy' I could probably think of a few reasons why capitalism isn't such a great thing. --=20 Carl Schmidt Just like the pied piper led rats through the streets We dance like marionettes swaying to the symphony of destruction http://slackerbsd.org/ --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: wx6iJk9IN+P+sNnP9fVxy2RD7xZddohQ iQA/AwUBO7Ng1SwXrqm5p/cQEQJ5+QCfYvEnHjTGVGplt7Ct5iR614S62dsAnAwf p8bFHtckp4AXm3NFEpqSNnBq =Yypo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 10:47:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6BC37B505 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RHlVN25438 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:47:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA70319 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:47:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:47:31 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Carl Schmidt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" Message-ID: <20010927194731.A70182@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927132438.A42742@slackerbsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010927132438.A42742@slackerbsd.org>; from carl@slackerbsd.org on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 01:24:38PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Carl Schmidt said on Sep 27, 2001 at 13:24:38: > > > > Yes, the US do spearhead the economy of the world, they are at the > > technological cutting edge. In terms of economic policy, and also in > > terms of the educational system (not mentioned by Sinclair, I think), > > the US unquestionably got it right and everyone else is lagging far > > behind. But I don't think that means one should not criticise the > > foreign policy. And I certainly don't think the foreign policy is > > justified by, or has any connection whatever with, these things. > > > > Oi. We most certainly do not lead the world in education. I meant, university education. The US has, what, 10 or 20 absolutely top-class universities, and another 100 or 200 which are as good as the best universities of many other countries? At least, that's what the view from outside is like. Which is why people from everywhere in the world want to go to the US for higher studies. Yes, I've also read that school education can be pretty bad, especially in sciences and mathematics. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:11:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.away.net (away.net [208.194.163.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A99237B403 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from driz@localhost) by mail.away.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f8RIBX285178; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:11:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from driz) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:11:33 -0400 From: David Friedman To: Martin Vana Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH Shell account Message-ID: <20010927141133.C84502@mail> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Vana , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <010401c14767$88f44d00$1198e693@kolej.vslib.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <010401c14767$88f44d00$1198e693@kolej.vslib.cz>; from martin.vana@vslib.cz on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 05:17:34PM +0200 X-Info: http://www.away.net/ X-Uptime: 2:07PM up 30 days, 14:06, 3 users, load averages: 0.20, 0.16, 1.08 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Martin Vana (martin.vana@vslib.cz) wrote: > hi, > im behind a tough firewall and port 23(telnet) is disabled. 22(SSH) is > enabled but i cant find any shell account provider that has it open(22) and working there is always message "protocol mismatch". > Can you help me? > I believe that the "protocol mismatch" error is somewhat misleading at times. It could be one of a number of things, but the following come to mind: - specifying ssh1 in your client when connecting to an ssh2-only server (rare) - specifying ssh2 in your client when connecting to an ssh1-only server - connecting to a server that utilizes tcp wrappers without authorization - etc. Are you sshing from FreeBSD to FreeBSD? If not, what OS and what software are you using for your client? -- David Friedman - http://www.away.net/ Windows: "Where do you want to go today?" Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:17:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.dnsalias.net (villa2-053.sjc.ca.bbnow.net [24.219.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB2A37B435 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vhm3@localhost) by hades.dnsalias.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f8RIGgM64324; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vhm3@hades.dnsalias.net) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip McClure To: David Friedman Cc: Martin Vana , Subject: Re: SSH Shell account In-Reply-To: <20010927141133.C84502@mail> Message-ID: <20010927111448.V67963-100000@hades.dnsalias.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've also seen this on certain 2.x -> 2.x connections (different client & server vendors). Offhand, I can't remember the server version, but the clients were OpenSSH 2.2.0 On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, David Friedman wrote: > * Martin Vana (martin.vana@vslib.cz) wrote: > > hi, > > im behind a tough firewall and port 23(telnet) is disabled. 22(SSH) is > > enabled but i cant find any shell account provider that has it open(22) and working there is always message "protocol mismatch". > > Can you help me? > > > > I believe that the "protocol mismatch" error is somewhat misleading at times. > It could be one of a number of things, but the following come to mind: > > - specifying ssh1 in your client when connecting to an ssh2-only server (rare) > - specifying ssh2 in your client when connecting to an ssh1-only server > - connecting to a server that utilizes tcp wrappers without authorization > - etc. > > Are you sshing from FreeBSD to FreeBSD? If not, what OS and what software > are you using for your client? > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iQA/AwUBO7NtCoxq/3tb9j7EEQJvHgCdGHaoGKwZ82xNZ8F4/GFAyeR0ry8An1Xq NSlkvWdAnrX5EvPB61zS4t9J =/2hH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:33:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691F637B410 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:33:37 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:33:36 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20270000.1001605981@lobster.originative.co.uk> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010927183337.AAA631@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:53:01 +0100, Paul Richards wrote: >>> You should differentiate between communism and the USSR.= Communism is an >>>idealogy and it is not one that demands that military force be= used to >>>overthrow capitalist markets. >> Any ideology that includes the notion that private= property is >>inherently coercive can be used to justify the use of force= against those >>who practice it. >Umm, not related to my point below, but where does communism= state that >private property is "coercive"? =09I'm not sure what you mean by "where does cummunism state",= communism is not a particular book or document but an ideology. I can show you= quotations from several documents written by communists or about communism. You= may not find it in a 'sound bite'. >> Often only because of other errors in the ideology. For= example, if >>some >>ideology claimed that having blonde hair was a crime comparable= to murder, >>you can blame that ideology for justifying the killing or = imprisoning of >>blonde people, even if that ideology also includes complete= pacifism and >>the notion that only god can punish murders. The >If there was an ideology that said having blonde hair was a= crime but that >violent actions were evil then it is not the fault of the= ideology for >violence against people with blonde hair since those= perpetrating the >violence are not believers in the ideology, they're just haters= of people >with blonde hair who have picked out that one piece of someone= elses >ideology to justify their actions. =09Not at all. The people who hold each individual tenet of an= ideology bear responsibility of the logical implications of that tenet, even if= they don't choose to draw them, even if they hold other beliefs that= contradict that tenet. >That is very relevant to the current situation. =09Absolutely. >> comission of a crime comparable to murder can reasonably= justify the use >>of retaliatory lethal force, and thus so can the ideology even= if it >>includes other unreasonable elements. >You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone= elses, that's not >a valid course of debate. =09It is if I am correct. Again, an ideology bears full= responsibility for the logical conclusions of its beliefs even if its believers choose= not to hold the. Your argument is equivalent to "that's what you think",= which while true, is not a refutation if I'm correct. You will have to show= that drawing that conclusion is unreasonable, not just that some people fail= to draw it. >Your own ideology says that a crime comparable to >murder justifies the use of retaliatory force but you're drawing= that >opinion from your own idealogy, not the one you're criticising= for having an >opinion on blondes that you disagree with. =09If I am correct, what difference does it make whether it's my= opinion or not? "That's what you think" is not a valid refutation except on= a kindergarten playground. If I am wrong, you must argue so, not= merely that others disagree with me. >Don't assume that some other ideology that equates certain acts= to murder >will also have the same view that muder justifies retaliatory= force. =09I don't, but I don't care. Other people's irrational views only= interest me insofar as judging what their consequences are. >To use >our silly model, if being blonde is equivalent to being a= murderer it does >not follow that being blonde deserves the death penalty. The= idealogy can be >pacifist and view all such crimes as issues to be dealt with in= a peacable >manner. Dye blondes to be brunette, council murderers until they= reform etc. =09Sure, but the bad parts of the ideology are still bad and still= deserve blame for their logical consequences even if the believers fail= to draw them (because someone else always will). >You may not agree with the beliefs of this "idealogy" but you= can't pick the >bits you don't like in isolation and then apply your ideaology= to come to a >conclusion, any ideaology has to be viewed as a whole. =09Not at all! Each individual belief can be judged for correctness= and blamed for error. There is no "credit" for errors which "cancel= themselves out". >When you do that you may find that defining blondes to be= murders might not >seem as abhorrent as it would if you did it within your= idealogy, because >the way the ideaology deals with murderers is different to= yours. =09Again, "that's what you think" is not an appropriate refutation.= I have used the concept that force is an appropriate way to deal with= murders. If you wish to argue against it, you must do so from reasonable= principles otherwise I am entitled to use it. >(I didn't pick this silly example, apologies to offended= blondes). =09I did, but I don't like blondes, so we're okay. ;) =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:40:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7569F37B414 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RIe9N29415 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:40:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA72207 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:40:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:40:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010927204008.A69066@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20270000.1001605981@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20010927183337.AAA631@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010927183337.AAA631@shell.webmaster.com@whenever>; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 11:33:36AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Sep 27, 2001 at 11:33:36: > >Umm, not related to my point below, but where does communism state that > >private property is "coercive"? > > I'm not sure what you mean by "where does cummunism state", communism is not > a particular book or document but an ideology. I can show you quotations from > several documents written by communists or about communism. You may not find > it in a 'sound bite'. I believe most people regard the authoritative work -- as far as the basic philosophy and ideas are concerned -- to be "The Communist Manifesto" by Marx and Engels. Beyond that (and perhaps including that), it's a matter of dispute whether communism states it or not. If Stalin stated it that doesn't mean all communists must agree with him. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:41:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slackerbsd.org (cn434050-d.wall1.pa.home.com [24.40.72.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F8CF37B420 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 50012 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Sep 2001 18:44:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:44:52 -0400 From: Carl Schmidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" Message-ID: <20010927144451.A49398@slackerbsd.org> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt References: <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927132438.A42742@slackerbsd.org> <20010927194731.A70182@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010927194731.A70182@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-PGP-Key: http://slackerbsd.org/~carl/carl_schmidt.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Carl Schmidt said on Sep 27, 2001 at 13:24:38: > > >=20 > > > Yes, the US do spearhead the economy of the world, they are at the > > > technological cutting edge. In terms of economic policy, and also in > > > terms of the educational system (not mentioned by Sinclair, I think), > > > the US unquestionably got it right and everyone else is lagging far > > > behind. But I don't think that means one should not criticise the > > > foreign policy. And I certainly don't think the foreign policy is > > > justified by, or has any connection whatever with, these things. > > >=20 > >=20 > > Oi. We most certainly do not lead the world in education. >=20 > I meant, university education. The US has, what, 10 or 20 absolutely > top-class universities, and another 100 or 200 which are as good as > the best universities of many other countries? At least, that's what > the view from outside is like. Which is why people from everywhere in > the world want to go to the US for higher studies. Yes, I've also > read that school education can be pretty bad, especially in sciences > and mathematics. >=20 Yeah I agree. Some of the universities are top-notch but they require a dec= ent education from the beginning which isn't very likely if you're, for instanc= e, a Philadelphia inner-city school kid. You have very little chance of getting into a decent college if your teachers cannot teach or if your school administration doesn't focus on teaching and is more concerned with their o= wn salaries. You are right though, there are good colleges/universities here. It is just my opinion that it should not be a requirement to have to pay yo= ur way for an education. I'll acknowledge that currently we must pay to get through a decent college. However I think it would be a great thing to have free education. Free in the sense that teachers will teach because they care about the younger generations and they care about having everyone being able to learn at a higher level. Of course this is unlikely unless all of society were to change its ways into a non-capitalist way and did not have to earn money in order to live decently. It's a far-fetched thing to have happen in this country but it would be so nice if that were the case. --=20 Carl Schmidt Just like the pied piper led rats through the streets We dance like marionettes swaying to the symphony of destruction http://slackerbsd.org/ --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: NVF7MkZA3rsAif9B2Nhgx4RuIYneC9ib iQA/AwUBO7NzoywXrqm5p/cQEQKRAgCcDX4BewdlsQUVuxMrS9V7ORKHeYIAnivg qQr9TAa2aI2F3D+epL3VnL1K =rkWD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:53: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E066637B40B for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:53:00 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: Cc: , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:52:59 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20010927204008.A69066@lpt.ens.fr> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010927185300.AAA1280@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:40:09 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I believe most people regard the authoritative work -- as far as= the basic >philosophy and ideas are concerned -- to be "The Communist= Manifesto" by >Marx and Engels. Beyond that (and perhaps including that), it's= a matter of >dispute whether communism states it or not. >If Stalin stated it that doesn't mean all communists must agree= with him. =09If it's a logical conclusion to draw from what Stalin stated,= then Stalin gets (some of) the blame for it whether he said it or believed it= (though it may be erroneous to describe it as 'Stalin's belief'). Similarly,= if it's an illogical conclusion to draw from what Stalin said, he's free= from blame even if many people draw that conclusion from his works. =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 11:55:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AFB37B414 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RItlN31061 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:55:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA72744 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:55:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:55:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927204008.A69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927185300.AAA1280@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010927185300.AAA1280@shell.webmaster.com@whenever>; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 11:52:59AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Sep 27, 2001 at 11:52:59: > > >I believe most people regard the authoritative work -- as far as the basic > >philosophy and ideas are concerned -- to be "The Communist Manifesto" by > >Marx and Engels. Beyond that (and perhaps including that), it's a matter of > >dispute whether communism states it or not. > >If Stalin stated it that doesn't mean all communists must agree with him. > > If it's a logical conclusion to draw from what Stalin stated, then Stalin > gets (some of) the blame for it whether he said it or believed it (though it > may be erroneous to describe it as 'Stalin's belief'). Similarly, if it's an > illogical conclusion to draw from what Stalin said, he's free from blame even > if many people draw that conclusion from his works. Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying at all. My point is, it's meaningless to say "communism says this". You could say "some communists say this", or "this book by a communist leader says this", but there is no Bible for communism -- unless it's the Communist Manifesto, as I said. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 12:10:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8E537B40E for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f8RJA6607531; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:10:06 +0200 (CEST) To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: fundamentalism (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <1001617805.3bb3798d9bd0f@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:10:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> In-Reply-To: <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.162.100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scrive Rahul Siddharthan : > And, where India (perhaps Pakistan too) is concerned, *this* is the > problem. The Muslim masses look to their mullahs for inspiration and > not to their scientists, artists, writers or even the forward-looking ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is one of the most dangerous effect of ignorance, ignorance associated with the inability to think for oneself. It's worse than cancer. :-) Those who distort, inter alia, religion essentially wish to take away your freedom [of thought]. Those "people" would use any pretext for their purposes, and distorted religion happens to be one of the most poweful means. > politicians, while these latter don't make an effort to reach to the > masses (well, maybe some of the politicians do, but they're not very > successful). > > I believe that 1) the distortion of Islam/any religion has nothing > > to do with Islam and with religion at large; 2) these ideas can only > > be accepted by **ignorant** and [more or less large] [more or less] > > poor masses; 3) most of these religious/political leaders, for a > > variety of reasons, wish to keep these populations as ignorant [and > > poor] as they can. > > Partially right on 1: I think every religious text has things in it > which seem barbaric from our present-day point of view, and while we > can justify moderate behaviour by quoting the Koran, these people can > equally well justify their extremism from the same source. I won't > argue with them there, since their knowledge of the Koran is obviously > vastly greater than mine. Quite right on 2 and 3. Yes and no. A few days ago, a moderate Egyptian mullah stated that, in the Koran, there's no mention of "holy war". The fact is, the people good at misrepresenting religion are very good at creating packs of lies. If religions didn't exist, they would simply create other lies. Also, I was thinking of Christian religion(s). The figure of Christ as a thinker is strikingly universal. However, in the past few centuries, this hasn't prevented many people from perverting his thought and, in particular, from: 1) organizing crusades (the speeches of certain popes on the subject are very illuminating, as well as the real motives of the ahem "crusaders"); 2) burning, among others, Bruno at the stake; condemning and humiliating one of the greatest *Catholic* scientists of all times (viz Galileo); 3) making wars of "religion" -- religion being a mere pretext. I once read (fortune cookie?) that government lies, and newspapers lie, but in a democracy they are different lies. :-) I consider myself lucky to live in the West. Nowadays, to be able, ie to have the opportunity to think for oneself is real luxury. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 12:25:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1E537B410 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:25:17 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: Cc: , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:25:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >My point is, it's meaningless to say "communism says this". You= could say >"some communists say this", or "this book by a communist leader= says this", >but there is no Bible for communism -- unless it's the Communist= Manifesto, >as I said. > >R =09I'm not sure how you think that conflicts with anything I said.= In any event, I don't agree with it. I think it's pretty clear what= someone means when they say "communism says this". They mean that whatever they= referred to as "this" is either explicitly part of communist ideology,= implied by it, or believed by most people they classify as communist. Obviously,= the criteria for what constitutes communist ideology may differ between= people. =09But what I'm sensing from your other replies is that you hold= the view that no ideology can be judged because in order to do so, you must= hold some standard and obviously any ideology will pass its own standard= and it's not fair to judge one ideology by the standards of another. If you= hold this view, you've fallen for the argument that all beliefs are= deserving of equal credit simply because someone holds them. Half the time, this= leads to rejecting rational arguments with the equivalent of "that's what= you think" and the other half the time, it leads to rendering things beyond= question simply because that's what someone thinks. =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 12:33:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13E537B408 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RJXCN33966 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:33:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA73884 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:33:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:33:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever>; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:25:16PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Sep 27, 2001 at 12:25:16: > > But what I'm sensing from your other replies is that you hold the view that > no ideology can be judged because in order to do so, you must hold some > standard and obviously any ideology will pass its own standard and it's not > fair to judge one ideology by the standards of another. No I never said that and I don't think I implied that. If you want to know what I think of ideologies, I think they're Bad Things. There is no such thing as a good ideology. A thinking person must always question, and accept certain aspects of any ideology which appeals, but be willing to reject other aspects of the same ideology (in particular religion, but also communism and capitalism). Everyone must have a personal philosophy, subject to change, and not dictated by external authorities who can't be questioned. Someone once remarked that communism is a religion, because no communist is willing to name a mistake or failing of its founders (Marx, Lenin, etc); only gods don't make mistakes. True enough. Capitalism is also a religion to many people in the US, because they aren't willing to admit that there may be deficiencies in the capitalist world view, that free markets don't cure all ills. It is correct, everything else is wrong, infidel, dangerous. In the 1950s many of America's best and brightest people were persecuted by this capitalist (anti-communist) dogma. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 13:14:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A61937B40B for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7E7BD38 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11180 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:14:19 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f8RKCjp61073; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Sep 2001 13:12:45 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > If it's so bad, you can always run it through a program to > reformat it afterwards. Indeed, I believe that the judicious > use of formatting programs can help set a common project-wide > "style" to which all code will comply, because all code gets fed > through the formatter before being submitted. So it can be uniformly bad. But I do think that's the best plan. As a flunky programmer I used to get very upset when lame project standards would be imposed on some people (eg, me) while gross violations by some others would be tolerated. Rambling on: One thing going for the lots-of-space theory is just that the alternative has significant problems. I don't mean "no space"; I mean "judicial space". First, of course, judgements differ. Second, spaces (esp. blank lines) tend to categorize (usually unlabeled) things and often results in improper categorization to meet the rules of standards or esthetics or carelessness. Spacing most everything is rather, in this regard, like having no spaces at all where there is no improper categorization since there is no categorization. I find this esp. true regarding horizontal spacing. I like lots of space. The only downside I see is the reduction of context in an editor, but I find that less important, esp. given modern editor window sizes. It can also depend a lot on one's editor/font settings. Editors can have greatly differing sizes and ratios of character/line sizes and spaces between same. Degrading eyesight is another important factor. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 14:18:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486B537B401 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:18:14 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: Cc: , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:18:13 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010927211814.AAA4770@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:33:12 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >David Schwartz said on Sep 27, 2001 at 12:25:16: >> But what I'm sensing from your other replies is that you hold= the view >>that no ideology can be judged because in order to do so, you= must hold >>some standard and obviously any ideology will pass its own= standard and >>it's not fair to judge one ideology by the standards of= another. >No I never said that and I don't think I implied that. =09Yes, you did. >If you want to know what I think of ideologies, I think they're= Bad Things. >There is no such thing as a good ideology. A thinking person= must always >question, and accept certain aspects of any ideology which= appeals, but be >willing to reject other aspects of the same ideology (in= particular >religion, but also communism and capitalism). >Everyone must have a personal philosophy, subject to change, and= not >dictated by external authorities who can't be questioned. =09Right, but this is not consistent with: >If there was an ideology that said having blonde hair was a= crime but that >violent actions were evil then it is not the fault of the= ideology for >violence against people with blonde hair since those= perpetrating the >violence are not believers in the ideology, they're just haters= of people >with blonde hair who have picked out that one piece of someone= elses >ideology to justify their actions. >You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone= elses, that's not >a valid course of debate. =09You can't have it both ways. Either I can judge by rational= standards or I have to judge other people's ideology by those people's= standards, whether they're rational or not. =09What you've done is equate the rational with the irrational. If= I wish to judge communism, I must do so by communist standards, whether I= find them rational or not. And the sole justification for the communist= standards is that communists hold them. =09You can either argue: >A thinking person must always >question, and accept certain aspects of any ideology which= appeals, but be >willing to reject other aspects of the same ideology (in= particular >religion, but also communism and capitalism). =09Or you can argue: >You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone= elses, that's not >a valid course of debate. =09But you can't do both. One is right and the other is wrong. So= pick one, hopefully the right one. =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 14:36:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1325A37B403 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010927213645.TBWB3482.femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:36:45 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927171200.0181fef0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:18:43 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:33 PM 9/27/2001, you wrote: >Someone once remarked that communism is a religion, because no >communist is willing to name a mistake or failing of its founders >(Marx, Lenin, etc); only gods don't make mistakes. True enough. >Capitalism is also a religion to many people in the US, because they >aren't willing to admit that there may be deficiencies in the >capitalist world view, that free markets don't cure all ills. It is >correct, everything else is wrong, infidel, dangerous. In the 1950s >many of America's best and brightest people were persecuted by this >capitalist (anti-communist) dogma. You have so many inaccurate characterizations of Americans that I begin to wonder where you get them from. Show me the American that thinks capitalism is without flaws. Does any American on this list believe it? The greatest right in America is bitching about the ills of this country, and we exercise it to the fullest. Perhaps the difference is that we sort of "keep it in the family" and deal with it domestically (where we are undoubtedly most concerned), but I have yet to meet the American that doesn't have a gripe with our economic structure. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 14:36:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C4537B408 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010927213646.TBWI3482.femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:36:46 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927172202.02ada3c0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:32:23 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: US foreign policy In-Reply-To: <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:13 AM 9/27/2001, you wrote: >The more cynical would say that the US gives assistance to foreign >countries to gain more control over them; I've read such accusations >of the US policy towards Israel, among others -- ie, "if you don't >obey us, we'll cut off the funding".) Be that as it may, I don't see >what's wrong with criticising the bad points (and there is much to >criticise), while praising the good (yes, there's much to praise too). >As for trade: what's that got to do with anything? Trade between the U.S. and other countries is typically structured to be beneficial (in terms of trade difference) to the other countries, and that's not a coincidence. >Yes, the US do spearhead the economy of the world, they are at the >technological cutting edge. In terms of economic policy, and also in >terms of the educational system (not mentioned by Sinclair, I think), >the US unquestionably got it right and everyone else is lagging far >behind. But I don't think that means one should not criticise the >foreign policy. And I certainly don't think the foreign policy is >justified by, or has any connection whatever with, these things. In the first paragraph, you say "the US gives assistance to foreign countries to gain more control over them." In the previous paragraph, you say that you don't think "foreign policy...has any connection whatever with these things." Huh? If somebody gives you a LOT of money, you can best believe they have a reason for doing it, probably one that will benefit them in the long run. And I think this is true of anyone anywhere. It's certainly true of capitalists. So it seems hypocritical to me to take the monetary assistance, unbalanced trade, military protection--whatever--and them complain that we want a say so on some aspect of how the country is run. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 14:38:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5A637B427 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RLc3N43444 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA77662 ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:38:03 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010927233803.A77565@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927211814.AAA4770@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010927211814.AAA4770@shell.webmaster.com@whenever>; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 02:18:13PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Sep 27, 2001 at 14:18:13: > >There is no such thing as a good ideology. A thinking person must always > >question, and accept certain aspects of any ideology which appeals, but be > >willing to reject other aspects of the same ideology (in particular > >religion, but also communism and capitalism). > >Everyone must have a personal philosophy, subject to change, and not > >dictated by external authorities who can't be questioned. > > Right, but this is not consistent with: > > >If there was an ideology that said having blonde hair was a crime but that > >violent actions were evil then it is not the fault of the ideology for > >violence against people with blonde hair since those perpetrating the > >violence are not believers in the ideology, they're just haters of people > >with blonde hair who have picked out that one piece of someone elses > >ideology to justify their actions. I didn't write that. You gave that (stupid, imo) example and Paul answered you, but I didn't even want to get into that debate. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 14:56:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE2637B40B for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whenever ([206.171.168.130]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:56:08 -0700 From: David Schwartz To: Cc: , FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: PocoMail 2.51 (988) - Registered Version Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:56:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20010927233803.A77565@lpt.ens.fr> Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <20010927215608.AAA5645@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:38:03 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I didn't write that. You gave that (stupid, imo) example and= Paul answered >you, but I didn't even want to get into that debate. =09Sorry about that. You did write: >You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone= elses, that's not >a valid course of debate. =09Which expresses the same error. =09DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 15: 4: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A63B37B40B for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RM43N45171 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:04:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id AAA78484 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:04:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:04:03 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010928000403.A78402@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927233803.A77565@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927215608.AAA5645@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010927215608.AAA5645@shell.webmaster.com@whenever>; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 02:56:07PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Sep 27, 2001 at 14:56:07: > > Sorry about that. You did write: > > >You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone elses, that's not > >a valid course of debate. Nope - I didn't write that either. Perhaps your mailer is mangling mails in some peculiar way. Check the web archives. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 15: 8:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA0237B40B for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8RM8ZN45351 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:08:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id AAA78634 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:08:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:08:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010928000834.B78402@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927233803.A77565@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927215608.AAA5645@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010928000403.A78402@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010928000403.A78402@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 12:04:03AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Sep 28, 2001 at 00:04:03: > > >You're now applying your own idealogy to pieces of someone elses, that's not > > >a valid course of debate. > > Nope - I didn't write that either. Perhaps your mailer is mangling > mails in some peculiar way. Check the web archives. Or to save you trouble: it was Paul again, message-id <20270000.1001605981@lobster.originative.co.uk> So you can continue the argument with him :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 15:10:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 94F7D37B406 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 50455 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2001 22:10:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 27 Sep 2001 22:10:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3BB3A3A5.AC6E10AE@outpost.co.nz> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:09:41 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927171200.0181fef0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > Show me the American that thinks capitalism is without flaws. Does any > American on this list believe it? Lou Dobbs. The day the NYSE re-opened after the 11th, Lou prattled on endlessly (on CNN) about how "The Free Market" (and particularly the Stock Market) was the most accurate, rational, sensible system in the known universe for pricing the value of a company & a country - all while the DOW had its biggest one day fall in history due to irrational investor fears about nearly everything. It was like a black Hollywood parody, except he was dead serious. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 17:37: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790FE37B40A for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15mleC-0005eg-00; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:36:56 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f8S0auw49802; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:36:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:36:56 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brian Sobolak Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20010928013655.A49710@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <1692019273.20010927102035@telocity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <1692019273.20010927102035@telocity.com>; from sobolak@telocity.com on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 10:20:35AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 10:20:35AM -0700, Brian Sobolak wrote: | Have you checked out _Code Complete_ by Steve McConnell? It actually Is that from Microsoft Press? I've seen it at work, but I thought it was a Win32-specific book. I'll take a look tomorrow. | has a number of statistics about this and some recommendations. It | has numbers about the value of whitespace, comment density, etc. | | Personally I'd say what you are describing some horrible for | readability b/c the only person that really understands it is him. At the office, we call that 'job security.' :-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 18:12:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4343837B40D for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010928011252.ERRD18139.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:12:52 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927204604.029b1f28@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:07:26 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <3BB3A3A5.AC6E10AE@outpost.co.nz> References: <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927171200.0181fef0@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And thinking that a particular system is best equates with thinking that it's flawless? The only thing I could find on CNN from that day was at: http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/09/17/news/v_grasso/index.htm which is an interview with Grasso, the NYSE head. And it's not as strong in tone as you indicated, so I guess that's not what you're referring to. What you heard may have been rhetoric designed to *prevent* irrational investor behavior. Personally, I think that the stock market does do a damn good job when analyzed over the long term. Short-term analyses can be skewed in either direction, but the long-term principles remain sound. And I hardly think that the market drop of September 17th was caused by "irrational" fears. This country (and many others doing business with it) were hurt significantly by the attacks in the previous week, and the domino effect caused a lot of economic problems for the foreseeable future that will no doubt be corrected, but it will take some time. --Chip Morton At 06:09 PM 9/27/2001, you wrote: >Lou Dobbs. > >The day the NYSE re-opened after the 11th, Lou prattled on endlessly (on >CNN) about how "The Free Market" (and particularly the Stock Market) was >the most accurate, rational, sensible system in the known universe for >pricing the value of a company & a country - all while the DOW had its >biggest one day fall in history due to irrational investor fears about >nearly everything. > >It was like a black Hollywood parody, except he was dead serious. > > -- C. >-- >Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 > Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 21:47:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6F037B40B; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au (dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.150]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f8S4l6827739; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:17:06 +0930 (CST) Received: from muttley.dsto.defence.gov.au (unverified) by dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:15:32 +0930 Received: from salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au (salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.9]) by muttley.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3.LMD.990513) with ESMTP id OAA14534; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:04:58 +0930 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id TY39ZK5P; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:04:54 +0930 Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (fuzz.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.75.229]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3.LMD.990513) with ESMTP id OAA00551; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:04:58 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <3BB3FDF2.27A7B8FB@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:04:58 +0930 From: "Thyer, Matthew" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load References: <3BAEEE9E.B8DCDD3C@dsto.defence.gov.au> <200109261353.f8QDrbG22971@dungeon.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen McKay wrote: > > On Monday, 24th September 2001, "Thyer, Matthew" wrote: > > > IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence > > Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the > > CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are > > requested to contact the sender and delete the email. > > Firstly I must say, "Ha! Ha! Ha! HA! HA! !!" > > Secondly, does your employer really think they own email even in the > recipient's mailbox? I mean, I've got a copy of your email. Does that > mean DSTO will come and take it back one day? Kick my door in and take > all my gear? "Just a precaution, sir! You might have some of our mail." > > Or is it just useless lawyer bluster wasting my precious existence? Do you think I care ? > PS I don't use NIS so I have no idea about your FreeBSD problem. Sorry. Now that is something I do care about and FreeBSD's possible poor NIS client performance is making it look very bad in a large UNIX network such as the one we run here. Combine that with the fact that FreeBSD has no automounter that is compatible with the commercial UNIX systems and you'll see that FreeBSD is missing out in some key markets (being a client in a larger UNIX network). [I dont want to hear the arguments of "Use AMD, it's better" because there are many situations where the client cannot control what NIS maps the server will provide]. So if anyone has something useful to offer re: investigating of FreeBSD's NIS client performance, please reply. Also news along the lines of "I have written an autofsd and need people to test it" would be good too. -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Science Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Edinburgh PO Box 1500 Edinburgh South Australia 5111 IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 21:55:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34D637B40D; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 231A23E98; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1596FBAAD; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:55:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: "Thyer, Matthew" Cc: Stephen McKay , , Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load In-Reply-To: <3BB3FDF2.27A7B8FB@dsto.defence.gov.au> Message-ID: <20010928005036.W24028-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Thyer, Matthew wrote: >Now that is something I do care about and FreeBSD's possible poor >NIS client performance is making it look very bad in a large UNIX >network such as the one we run here. > >Combine that with the fact that FreeBSD has no automounter that is >compatible with the commercial UNIX systems and you'll see that >FreeBSD is missing out in some key markets (being a client in a >larger UNIX network). I have echoed these sentiments many times on this same mailing list. I am faced with the same problem. I admin a large, heterogenous NIS/NFS/autofs domain and integrating just one FreeBSD box into is so hacking it's embarassing. >[I dont want to hear the arguments of "Use AMD, it's better" >because there are many situations where the client cannot control >what NIS maps the server will provide]. You post messages like this on FreeBSD mailing lists and from personal experience I can guarantee you'll get lots of "help" converting to AMD. >So if anyone has something useful to offer re: investigating of >FreeBSD's NIS client performance, please reply. This message isn't particularly useful, but I am at least sympathetic to your plight. >Also news along the lines of "I have written an autofsd and need >people to test it" would be good too. AFAIK nobody has written an autofsd for BSD, but the amd maintainers (now known as am-utils and in src/contrib) have stuff on their website about adding autofs support to amd, but it doesn't appear to be very far along. -- "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 Brandon D. Valentine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 21:57:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2468537B40C; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 58F013E96; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5574CBAAD; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:57:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: "Thyer, Matthew" Cc: Stephen McKay , , Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load In-Reply-To: <20010928005036.W24028-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Message-ID: <20010928005641.T24028-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: >I have echoed these sentiments many times on this same mailing list. I >am faced with the same problem. I admin a large, heterogenous >NIS/NFS/autofs domain and integrating just one FreeBSD box into is so >hacking it's embarassing. s/hacking/hackish/ I know, replied to my own message. -- "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 Brandon D. Valentine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 23:14: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5174337B40D; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8S6DRB30489; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) To: bandix@looksharp.net Cc: Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mckay@thehub.com.au, chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load In-Reply-To: <20010928005036.W24028-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> References: <3BB3FDF2.27A7B8FB@dsto.defence.gov.au> <20010928005036.W24028-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010927231327V.jkh@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:13:27 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Progress in these types of situations nearly always comes from people with enough self-interest in the problem area to actually commit to working on it. Rather than asking for people who have written an autofsd to step forward, why not instead start working on this project yourselves and ask for volunteers to HELP you address the problem? That's taking on the problem from the right end, IMHO. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 23:34:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0981337B414; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 7D5303E98; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DA4BAB3; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:34:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: , , , Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load In-Reply-To: <20010927231327V.jkh@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20010928022500.I24843-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >Progress in these types of situations nearly always comes from people >with enough self-interest in the problem area to actually commit to >working on it. Rather than asking for people who have written an >autofsd to step forward, why not instead start working on this project >yourselves and ask for volunteers to HELP you address the problem? >That's taking on the problem from the right end, IMHO. I agree wholeheartedly Jordan. My self-interest in the problem has at least motivated me enough to go reading the applicable source but I've not had time lately to work on actual patches. I've got a lot of irons in the fire at the moment, especially with students being back around (I'm a sysadmin at Vanderbilt University) but when things quiet down I do intend to work on this. At the moment I sit daily in front of an SGI Indigo2 running IRIX because it's better than Linux and integrates quite well with our environment. I really want a FreeBSD workstation on my desk, so I'll likely end up writing the patches just so I can get that FreeBSD workstation integrated. But, no promises on a timeframe so if someone else wants to get started now, then by all means charge right ahead with it. -- "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -- /usr/games/fortune, 07/30/2001 Brandon D. Valentine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 27 23:34:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF6737B41D for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21346; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB41A0D.9B62C67F@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:34:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Michael Lucas , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926140502.I1370@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Which is what America just refuses to realise. They virtuously call > it a "cowardly" attack on "democracy and freedom" -- as if he or his > followers care about how US citizens live their lives. Clearly, they cared about how the people in the Pentagon and World Trade Center lived their lives, or they wouldn't have terminated so many of them. > And, on this list and elsewhere, it seems that too many Americans have > this idea that to understand the man and his motivations is to condone > the attacks. This is incorrect. Understanding the man and his motivations is a very important thing, if the U.S. is to mercilessly hunt him down. > So they don't even want to know. I don't follow this. > Even if the only thing you read is pulp thriller fiction, isn't it > always considered important to understand the enemy? Isn't it even > possible to condemn the attacks and at the same time condemn the > policies that have led to such huge resentment in so many parts of the > world? Sure. But it's not possible to justify the attacks in terms of there being resentment, deserved or not. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:24:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A3A37B40A; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au (dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.150]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f8S7Nm810734; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:53:49 +0930 (CST) Received: from muttley.dsto.defence.gov.au (unverified) by dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:51:53 +0930 Received: from salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au (salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.9]) by muttley.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3.LMD.990513) with ESMTP id QAA24338; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:47:51 +0930 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id TZATM22L; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:47:47 +0930 Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (fuzz.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.75.229]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3.LMD.990513) with ESMTP id QAA08674; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:47:50 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <3BB4241F.54D3C039@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:47:51 +0930 From: "Thyer, Matthew" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load References: <20010928005036.W24028-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Brandon D. Valentine" wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Thyer, Matthew wrote: > >Combine that with the fact that FreeBSD has no automounter that is > >compatible with the commercial UNIX systems and you'll see that > >FreeBSD is missing out in some key markets (being a client in a > >larger UNIX network). > > I have echoed these sentiments many times on this same mailing list. I > am faced with the same problem. I admin a large, heterogenous > NIS/NFS/autofs domain and integrating just one FreeBSD box into is so > hacking it's embarassing. > > >[I dont want to hear the arguments of "Use AMD, it's better" > >because there are many situations where the client cannot control > >what NIS maps the server will provide]. > > You post messages like this on FreeBSD mailing lists and from personal > experience I can guarantee you'll get lots of "help" converting to AMD. I'm not asking for help. I have done this myself. In a small part of this organisation I have created a non-standard NIS+ map which I call "amd_home". This NIS+ map is populated daily by a hack of a cron job that awks auto_home into amd_home. This is not hard to do but it is hackish. My point is that it looks really bad to management to even have to hack up such a work around. Also this workaround is not very good in that new auto_home map entries wont appear in amd_home until the next day. In answer to those who say "convert the whole organisation to AMD", I say "you're missing the point". The reality is that many large organisations have a team of admins who already know commercial UNIX and will say "Use Linux instead for your x86 requirements". > AFAIK nobody has written an autofsd for BSD, but the amd maintainers > (now known as am-utils and in src/contrib) have stuff on their website > about adding autofs support to amd, but it doesn't appear to be very far > along. Thanks for the information. -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Science Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Edinburgh PO Box 1500 Edinburgh South Australia 5111 IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:27:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB39437B40A; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au (dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.150]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f8S7Qo811024; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:56:50 +0930 (CST) Received: from muttley.dsto.defence.gov.au (unverified) by dsto-ms2.dsto.defence.gov.au (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:55:14 +0930 Received: from salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au (salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.9]) by muttley.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3.LMD.990513) with ESMTP id QAA26127; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:54:04 +0930 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by salex001.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id TZATM2QL; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:54:01 +0930 Received: from dsto.defence.gov.au (fuzz.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.75.229]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3.LMD.990513) with ESMTP id QAA03237; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:54:04 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <3BB42595.B47AAD40@dsto.defence.gov.au> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:54:05 +0930 From: "Thyer, Matthew" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Jordan Hubbard , mckay@thehub.com.au, chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load References: <20010928022500.I24843-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Brandon D. Valentine" wrote: > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > >Progress in these types of situations nearly always comes from people > >with enough self-interest in the problem area to actually commit to > >working on it. Rather than asking for people who have written an > >autofsd to step forward, why not instead start working on this project > >yourselves and ask for volunteers to HELP you address the problem? > >That's taking on the problem from the right end, IMHO. > > I agree wholeheartedly Jordan. My self-interest in the problem has at > least motivated me enough to go reading the applicable source but I've > not had time lately to work on actual patches. I've got a lot of irons > in the fire at the moment, especially with students being back around > (I'm a sysadmin at Vanderbilt University) but when things quiet down I > do intend to work on this. At the moment I sit daily in front of an SGI > Indigo2 running IRIX because it's better than Linux and integrates quite > well with our environment. I really want a FreeBSD workstation on my > desk, so I'll likely end up writing the patches just so I can get that > FreeBSD workstation integrated. But, no promises on a timeframe so if > someone else wants to get started now, then by all means charge right > ahead with it. Unfortunately my employer doesn't pay me to write code to make FreeBSD work in our environment and my days of hacking on FreeBSD at home are finished due to a life and kids. Maybe I keep pushing on this issue because there have been times in the past where FreeBSD has been prepared to pay programmers to write critical project progressing pieces of code. IMHO I think autofsd is one such piece of code. -- Matthew Thyer Phone: +61 8 8259 7249 Science Corporate Information Systems Fax: +61 8 8259 5537 Defence Science and Technology Organisation, Edinburgh PO Box 1500 Edinburgh South Australia 5111 IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:34:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AA237B410 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00231; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:34:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > The unstated assumption here is that it is possible to please > > all such people simultaneously, > > I don't think there was any assumption there about pleasing anyone. > My point was that bin Laden and his crowd are a minority, even among > the middle Eastern population; and, if America had not been a > prosperous country and if people had been starving, faced with foreign > occupation, and suffered a general sense of injustice all the time, > someone like David Duke would have a much greater following than he > does today: probably greater than bin Laden does today, and he would > be advocating much more extreme violence than he does right now, being > toned down only by fear of US law. > > That paragraph was not a direct reference to America, only a reference > to conditions in which such fanatics can arise. The problem is that no matter what a nation does or does not do, someone somewhere will feel wronged by the action or inaction. I think that U.S. citizens generally realize that bin Laden and his crowd are a minority. I also think they realize that, although we have released photographs of 14 of the people suspected of having committed the attack of the 11th, and we have other evidence in our posession, including the arrest of someone who provided several of those persons with phony identification, we haven't come right out and stated that the act was bin Laden's work. On the other hand, we are not about to mistake bin Laden for Shirley Temple, and as a terrorist organizer himself, we are unlikely to be so willing to tolerate him or anyone like him as we have been up to the time before the attack. > > Even if the U.S. were to completely ignore its own national > > best interestests, and cringe in fear while rushing to placate > > every potential terrorist before they become angry enough to > > attack, pleasing everyone would be impossible. > > There is no question of placating. Just don't meddle in their > affairs, they don't concern you. That is the only message here. The problem is that they consider the destruction of Israel to be one of their affairs, and the U.S. was one of many countries involved in the creation of the state of Israel as reparations for World War II. So it _is_ our business, and their claim to those affairs being private is specious and generally unjustifiable. > Of course, now that they have struck, the US is more or less obliged > to strike back, but it should be done *extremely* carefully. But > it's a good time for the US to reconsider its involvements with other > shady regimes and other internal problems all over the world. Of course history is written by the victors, so no matter what you might think of a particular regime now, it is up to history, not you, to judge its character. > > Trying to do this would put the U.S. in the position of the > > battered spouses, who blame themselves for the beatings they > > receive from their partners. > > Except that the US is not the spouse of the middle east. Except, > perhaps, for Israel. Get this straight: the attacks of 11 September were the responsibility of the attackers. I don't care if the U.S. was dropping pallets of war materials to one side or the other of some country, or if they were refusing to drop pallets of war materials. Nothing justifies the attacks. The analogy to the "battered spouse" was to someone who, when attacked, did nothing, except consider the attack as resulting from their own behaviour. This abdicates the personal responsibility of the attackers, and no matter who presents this idea, or how many times it is presented, the attacks were not the fault of the U.S.. > > I maintain that it's not possible to both support Israel to > > keep the Israeli's from feeling abandoned, and germinating > > their own terrorists, and to not support Israel, so that the > > current terrorist fundamentalists are satisfied and thus they > > do not engage in future attacks. > > But the Israel thing doesn't seem to have been uppermost on Osama's > mind. It was certainly on his mind earlier this week, when he sent his fax to the Packistani newspaper. And it was on his mind when he sent the warning of an attack, last month, to the Arabic language paper in London. > Why must the US continue to meddle in all those other > countries? If you want to put me in the position of a U.S. appologist, at least give me precise, concrete instances, so that I can give you my understanding of why the U.S. has involved itself, on a case by case basis. > (You're also making some shocking implications above -- > ie, that the US feels it necessary to support Israel in all > circumstances regardless of moral positions, and that the US feels > that if it does not support Israel, Israeli terrorists will attack the > US, so it's an emotional blackmail involved. But I'm not sure I want > to find out more on this.) No. My implication is merely that the U.S. is acting correctly in its historical support of the continued existance of Israel, and to do otherwise would be to renege on a promise made which dates from the end of World War II. The other statement is based on _your_ idea that the U.S. is in fact engaged in the creation of terrorists through -- your word -- "meddling" in the affairs of other countries. I merely point out that to not act is also a form of "meddling", and thus, no matter what the U.S. does, it is engaging in what someone, somewhere will claim is "meddling". If your premise, that such "meddling" is so intolerable that it in itself thus _creates_ terrorists -- well, no matter what we do or don't do must then necessarily result in terrorists. > > Perhaps, as you argue, the attack was a consequence of U.S. > > foreign policy. If so, then the path is clear: and it does > > not include permitting others to dictate foreign policy. > > In that case, why is the US seeking to gain the support of > countries all over the world now? Because the U.S. tends to pay for everything, and forgive all war debts, and it would be nice to have the approval of other nations, if we are to engage in a long term campaign to eliminate terrorista, and it would be nice if there were some assurance that other nations were also committed to the idea, since it is a hard row to hoe alone. [ ... embargo of Iraq against a government which has used poison gas on its own citizens as part of an attempted "ethnic clensing" ... ] > > The embargo does not extend to food or medical supplies. > > Excuse me. It included trade, and that includes trade in medicines > and food. There was/is a UN "food for oil" scheme, but the US fought > tooth and nail to prevent countries (including India) from using it to > trade with Iraq. India had the food, and wanted the oil, and did > trade, but it involved plenty of nastiness. Iraqi officials may also > have pilfered what food did reach Iraq, but that is not the whole > story at all. India wanted to trade above the level needed to alleviate any unnecessary suffering of the civilian population in Iraq, which is tantamount to ignoring the embargo entirely. > Even if it was, > > > If Iraq > > has chosen to redirect permitted aid, such that it does not reach > > its intended destination, then the suffering of their people is on > > their own head, not that of those participating in the embargo. > > That is precisely the attitude that gets the US so widely disliked. > "I'll embargo you, but I'll give you some bags of rice on humanitarian > grounds, now if your people starve it's your fault." I dislike it > enough coming from US bureaucrats, but I absolutely detest it coming > from an ordinary American; I really hope you're not representative. Realize that the U.S. is currently free from outside rule because of a revolutionary war, in which "ordinary Americans" gave their lives in order to throw off the yoke of a nation which, at the time, was opressing them. I think that the basic issue that you are not understanding is that, given its origins, it is almost unimaginable for average U.S. citizens that someone starving to death because corrupt government officials are selling off relief supplies would not rise up, and similarly, give their lives to throw off the yoke those corrupt government officials. This explains, at least in part, why U.S. citizens on average have a less than symapthetic view for people who, rather than fighting against their opressors in their own country, and instead, come to the U.S. and demonstrate (as is their right in the U.S. to do, without fear of retribution), wanting the U.S. to send its sons and daughters to die opposing the regime that they themselves were unwilling to stay and fight themselves. If Sadaam's people are starving -- Yes, it's Saddam's fault. And the U.S. has sent more aid than all other nations combined to combat the famine in Ethiopia (I guess that they're just born "meddlers"...); it has helped very little, overall, as the military government there continues to sell relief supplies to neighboring countries -- who are part of the problem: they buy them -- in exchange for funds that they use to then buy weapons and equipment to continue the oppression of their own citizens. > > I have heard other Indian nationals claim that the Taliban were > > merely puppets of the Pakistani government. > > Some do claim that; they, in their present form, are undoubtedly > *creations* of the Pakistan government, which is now the only country > to continue to recognise them. How much control they have is hard to > say. Good to know that there is someone at fault in your universe, other than the U.S. government, or its agency, the C.I.A.... > > I think that India's > > long standing conflict with Pakistan must color these views. > > Whose views? The puppet view, or the condom view, or my views in > these emails? Your statements regarding Pakistan, in these emails. > > The > > problems between India and Pakistan started with the end of British > > colonialism, when the two countries started self-segregating along > > religious boundaries, for no reason other than religious intolerance > > on both sides. This self-segregation has continued to the point > > where the countries are now sharply divided upon religious lines. > > Ah, now you're trying to know more about India than I do. As a matter > of fact, India has more muslims than Pakistan does, What about as a percentage of the population, rather than as a raw count? Here's the answer: India Hindu 81.3% Muslim 12% Christian 2.3% Sikh 1.9% other groups including Buddhist, Jain, Parsi 2.5% Pakistan Muslim 97% (Sunni 77%, Shi'a 20%) Christian, Hindu, and other 3% And FWIW: Afghanistan Muslim 99% (Sunni 84%, Shi'a 15%), other 1% > and on the whole there is no more trouble (far less, indeed) than > there is between, say, Catholics and Protestants in the UK. "Less worse" != "Better". > India has always rejected > the "two-nation theory" (the theory that Hindus and Muslims can't get > along) and with good reason. In fact the head of the Indian missile > programme is a Muslim (Abdul Kalam). So are any number of other > prominent people, in all walks of life, including many journalists; > I can point you to writings by some of them if you like. Also plenty > of Christians, Sikhs and others. Note: I am not saying that ethnic division is a governmental policy, I'm stating that it is happening. I'm well aware of the theory; I'm also well aware that, despite the theory, the self segregation has occurred to the extents noted in the percentages quoted above. Historically, the two countries populations were much more balanced than they are today. It seems to me that the closer to a majority any group moves, the worse it is for everyone. I myself spent a good portion of my childhood in an area where ~65% of the population were of a single religion, and yes, people who were not that religion suffered socially and occasionally physically as a result of that. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EB037B407; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8S7gVB30815; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) To: Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au Cc: bandix@looksharp.net, mckay@thehub.com.au, chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load In-Reply-To: <3BB42595.B47AAD40@dsto.defence.gov.au> References: <20010928022500.I24843-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3BB42595.B47AAD40@dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010928004231L.jkh@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:42:31 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 17 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Maybe I keep pushing on this issue because there have been times in > the past where FreeBSD has been prepared to pay programmers to write > critical project progressing pieces of code. Well if that's your rationale then you can stop pushing because I can state categorically that "FreeBSD" doesn't have any money for that kind of thing and never really did. Rather, various organizations with close ties to the FreeBSD project did, on occasion, pay programmers to write code which coincidently met both the needs of the organization and were in popular demand. Unfortunately, those times and even some of those organizations are now dead. The cappucino makers have been packed up, the Audi TT Roadsters out front reposessed and the fancy lumbar-supporting programmers chairs actioned off by disappointed venture capitalists. The year is now 2001. Please update your mental model. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:45: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F76A37B40E; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15msKH-0002dt-00; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:44:49 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:44:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: probably off-topic for Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load In-Reply-To: <20010927231327V.jkh@freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Progress in these types of situations nearly always comes from people > with enough self-interest in the problem area to actually commit to > working on it. Rather than asking for people who have written an And sometimes someone can be made to be interested by being paid. > autofsd to step forward, why not instead start working on this project > yourselves and ask for volunteers to HELP you address the problem? > That's taking on the problem from the right end, IMHO. I know a lot of people believe that "open source" means volunteer only. But, in fact, a lot of freely-provided code was paid for. I am not saying that this particular NIS improvement should be paid for, but I am saying that paying developers is another option. Even if a "funded" project is not completed; it can probably often help get the momentum needed to get volunteers to begin contributing. I wonder what it would be like if a few companies -- that are forced to use proprietary software due to certain needs -- would redirect their funds to getting the needed software developed (and donated) as open source. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:47:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACBC37B405 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25255; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:48:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > For further reading, see > http://members.tripod.com/~NH_PEACE_ACTION/Dispell_myths.htm > > I don't know about everything listed there, but from what I've read in > various places before, what they say about the food situation is > substantially true, and so is what they say about Saddam Hussein's > spending on public infrastructure and improving the lives of his > people. The same is true of Gadhafi in Libya, by the way. And > neither of them is an Islamic fundamentalist. It doesn't mean they're > nice guys, but there are far uglier people in that neighbourhood. If the sanctions are so problematic, there is an easy way to end them: Saddam the great humanitarian could step down. That said, I disagree with a number of the so called facts -- it is well known that Iraq still posesses many SCUD missles, since the U.S. "pinpoint" strikes on missle lanunchers were in fact often attacks on plywood decoys. It is also well known that Iraq has at least some stockpiles of weaponized Anthrax, and that they consistently prevented U.N. inspectors from entering certain areas, until their weapons stores had been removed to other locations. I agree that their nuclear bombs program has been derailed; however, this does not prevent them from purchasing weapons from other countries; nether does a nuclear weapon have to be a fusion or fission device to be deadly: Plutonium is one of the most metabolically poisonous substances known. Even if it is not purified sufficiently to create a fission device, it is still deadly in and of itself. Most U.S. citizens believed at the time, and currently believe, that the Gulf War was over oil. That particular "debunking" is for a myth very few ever believed. Freeing Kuwait from an invasion by a hostile army was a nice bonus. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 0:57:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2842137B408 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8S7vTC02361; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB42D9A.F57F0F2@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:58:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> <3BB27025.52611CA7@outpost.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig Harding wrote: > > If my former employee shoots my neighbor, I'm not going to care > > whether he was my former employee or not. > > If you trained your employee to shoot, and then included a healthy > supply of weapons in his severance package (and the address of a mate > who could continue to supply him with guns cheap when those ones run > out), can you really claim no responsibility or involvement when he > shoots your neighbour? This is the argument which ends with us arresting pub owners as accessories to second degree murder when a drunk who bought beer at their establishment runs over someone with their car. Note that in most of the world, you can't sue a common carrier, such as an ISP or NSP, for permitting access to porn (yeah, you can sue them "down under", since the politicians down there think it's possbile to know ahead of time and filter out all the "naughty bits" before anyone can see them, because there's a "contains porn" bit on packets, according to the TCP protocol specification, right?). So I guess we should blame governments for the acts of former soldiers, and police departments for the acts of former policemen, and the International Olympic Committee for the acts of former biathletes, if we want to be uniform in our application of the idea that individuals are never responsible for their own actions, and it's always some segment of the larger society which is at fault. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 1: 8:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86EA37B408 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8S88Gf05813; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB43021.47A29573@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:09:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <3BAC3644.1CB0C626@mindspring.com> <3BAD1FAE.2F3D40F5@mindspring.com> <20010923011557.B60374@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <015e01c143c8$c93505a0$89941bd8@speakeasy.net> <015d01c14519$80553010$3309f540@bigsky> <3BB0CA62.B1F189A9@mindspring.com> <3BB27025.52611CA7@outpost.co.nz> <20010927141423.E54588@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > On the other hand, if you were distributing not guns, but programs to > let the user read e-books in a manner not authorised by the > manufacturer -- *that's* a different matter entirely. That can land > you in jail for up to 25 years, even if you're from another country, > and did this work there, where it's legal. Aarrgh. Most people who have an opinion one way or another condemn the DMCA and the action against Skylarov. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 1:16:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADA537B40E for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8S8Dlf21389; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB4316C.6383E225@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:14:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: Technical Information , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" References: <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen McKay wrote: > >Personally though, while I think it's possible to condemn U.S. foreign > >policy and terrorism against the U.S., I feel like I'm reading far too much > >of the former and far too little of the latter. > > As I said, I think the only way to reduce terrorism is to change your > foreign policy. That might be why you read about it so much. Others > have said the same as I have. Feel free to suggest a foriegn policy that would piss no one off, and still protect U.S. national interests, and I'm sure the U.S. would be willing to adopt it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 1:25:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0BC37B406 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8S8Oxf24495; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB4340C.5D02DAF7@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:25:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924191808.0227cf28@threespace.com> <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > The more cynical would say that the US gives assistance to foreign > countries to gain more control over them; I've read such accusations > of the US policy towards Israel, among others -- ie, "if you don't > obey us, we'll cut off the funding".) That's funny. The most common criticism I keep hearing from the people who say that U.S. foreign policy sucks is that the U.S. permits Israel too much control, and that it is their lobby that results in unwarranted amounts of funds being sent in support of them. I think the argument is inane: if the attack was the act of people trying to sway U.S. foreign policy, then they have most certainly failed. If nothing else, we will redouble our "meddling" as a means of flipping them off. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 1:45: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26FA37B401 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8S8if110557; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB438A5.2D8C18C8@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:45:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carl Schmidt Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another article, from the "other side" References: <3BAFD532.6ED7A320@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010926015428.01814630@threespace.com> <20010926125046.C1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926070519.A30531@blackhelicopters.org> <20010926132021.E1370@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926072915.A30655@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927003714.01819658@threespace.com> <200109271345.f8RDjn116287@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927100849.017f9938@threespace.com> <20010927171312.C56631@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927132438.A42742@slackerbsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Carl Schmidt wrote: > Oi. We most certainly do not lead the world in education. I'll agree with that... > We don't pay teachers enough and when it comes time for teachers > to take a stand they're considered ungrateful people. The vast majority of educational funding is sidetracked into administration, rather than going to the front line teachers; but it is considered a natural career advancement path for teachers to move into roles where a higher and higher percentage of their time is spent on administration. Note that both my grandmothers were teachers, two of my aunts, and at least one of my cousins. I have been lucky enough to have a few truly excellent teachers, but for the most part, I know very few who are as good at what they do for a living as I am at what I do for a living. I also think that education has gone down hill since there is no longer any credible threat of punishment for misbehaviour in school (your own case of a Parochial school being more of an exception). > There are a lot of illiterate people in this country and there > are a lot of people that can't do simple maths [ ... ] Literacy rates: overall Male Female U.S. 97% 97% 97% Afghanistan 31.5% 47.2% 15% U.K. 99% NC NC (not collected) Ireland 98% NC NC India 52% 65.5% 37.7% France 99% 99% 99% Germany 99% NC NC ...of course, an ability to read doesn't mean that one chooses to do so... --Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 1:57:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2C3137B40A for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.226.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.226]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8S8uL127075; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:57:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Capitalism is also a religion to many people in the US, because they > aren't willing to admit that there may be deficiencies in the > capitalist world view, that free markets don't cure all ills. It is > correct, everything else is wrong, infidel, dangerous. In the 1950s > many of America's best and brightest people were persecuted by this > capitalist (anti-communist) dogma. Standard Oil. IBM. Microsoft. Antitrust. Enough said. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 5:23:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5EB37B40D for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8SCNFN08749 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA08670 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:23:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:23:14 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010928142314.B7471@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 01:57:09AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 28, 2001 at 01:57:09: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Capitalism is also a religion to many people in the US, because they > > aren't willing to admit that there may be deficiencies in the > > capitalist world view, that free markets don't cure all ills. It is > > correct, everything else is wrong, infidel, dangerous. In the 1950s > > many of America's best and brightest people were persecuted by this > > capitalist (anti-communist) dogma. > > Standard Oil. IBM. Microsoft. Antitrust. Enough said. No, say some more. Antitrust is a capitalist idea. It is also a good idea, I happen to think, though the Republicans disagree. It doesn't follow that all capitalist ideas are good ideas, if that's what you're implying -- if not, I don't understand what you're implying at all. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 5:48:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0960A37B413 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f8SCm5N12382 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:48:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA09842 ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:47:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:47:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 12:34:21AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 28, 2001 at 00:34:21: > > > > There is no question of placating. Just don't meddle in their > > affairs, they don't concern you. That is the only message here. > > The problem is that they consider the destruction of Israel > to be one of their affairs, I'm frankly at a loss of words at your caricature of the Israel situation throughout your emails, so I'll keep quiet; maybe someone else will take the bait. I've been to Israel, and met many Israelis, some as recently as last month, and while I wouldn't call them unbiased they knew much more of the history of the situation than you seem to and seemed to understand the Palestinian point of view much better. We can continue this in private email if you like. > Get this straight: the attacks of 11 September were the > responsibility of the attackers. There is no argument about that, and never was. The argument is about the responsibility the US has in framing a response. > India wanted to trade above the level needed to alleviate > any unnecessary suffering of the civilian population in Iraq, What would you call "necessary suffering"? The deaths of 150000 people through disease and starvation? Does it become "unnecessary" only if it exceeds some threshold? > Realize that the U.S. is currently free from outside rule > because of a revolutionary war, in which "ordinary Americans" > gave their lives in order to throw off the yoke of a nation > which, at the time, was opressing them. > > I think that the basic issue that you are not understanding is > that, given its origins, it is almost unimaginable for average > U.S. citizens that someone starving to death because corrupt > government officials are selling off relief supplies would not > rise up, and similarly, give their lives to throw off the yoke > those corrupt government officials. That's right; all over the world where corrupt dictatorial regimes rule, be it Myanmar, or much of Africa, or China, or sundry other places, it is the people who are at fault for not throwing out their dictators. I wonder whether you realise what you sound like. > > > I think that India's > > > long standing conflict with Pakistan must color these views. > > > > Whose views? The puppet view, or the condom view, or my views in > > these emails? > > Your statements regarding Pakistan, in these emails. This is getting interesting. Which statements? Most of my statements have been quotes from the Pakistani press (admittedly, the liberal sections of it). > > > problems between India and Pakistan started with the end of British > > > colonialism, when the two countries started self-segregating along > > > religious boundaries, for no reason other than religious intolerance > > > on both sides. This self-segregation has continued to the point > > > where the countries are now sharply divided upon religious lines. > > > > Ah, now you're trying to know more about India than I do. As a matter > > of fact, India has more muslims than Pakistan does, > > What about as a percentage of the population, rather than as > a raw count? Here's the answer: > > India Hindu 81.3% > Muslim 12% > Christian 2.3% > Sikh 1.9% > other groups including Buddhist, Jain, Parsi 2.5% > > Pakistan Muslim 97% (Sunni 77%, Shi'a 20%) > Christian, Hindu, and other 3% > > And FWIW: > > Afghanistan Muslim 99% (Sunni 84%, Shi'a 15%), > other 1% I know all that perfectly well. You are only proving that if partition hadn't happened, the percentage of Muslims in India would have been some 25% rather than 12%. Big difference, indeed. You also said this self-segregation "has continued", which is absolutely not true, at least not in India. As for your numbers: 12% of a billion people is a very large number. And this number is not homogeneously mixed through the country; some areas (parts of Uttar Pradesh in the north, or Hyderabad in the south, for example) have large Muslim populations, perhaps 50% or more; other parts have very few. The proportion of muslims in mainstream professions is comparable with, often better than, their proportion in the population. Indeed, a quite disproportionately large fraction of the more popular musicians and actors, for example, are muslim. (Ironically, both these professions are banned by the Taliban.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 10:17:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-57-209.knology.net [24.214.57.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524C537B40D; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8SHHXT62830; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:17:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:17:33 -0500 From: David Kelly To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au, mckay@thehub.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load Message-ID: <20010928121733.A62723@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <20010927231327V.jkh@freebsd.org> <20010928022500.I24843-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010928022500.I24843-100000@turtle.looksharp.net>; from bandix@looksharp.net on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 02:34:20AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 02:34:20AM -0400, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > >Progress in these types of situations nearly always comes from people > >with enough self-interest in the problem area to actually commit to > >working on it. Rather than asking for people who have written an > >autofsd to step forward, why not instead start working on this project > >yourselves and ask for volunteers to HELP you address the problem? > >That's taking on the problem from the right end, IMHO. > > I agree wholeheartedly Jordan. My self-interest in the problem has at > least motivated me enough to go reading the applicable source but I've > not had time lately to work on actual patches. I've got a lot of irons > in the fire at the moment, especially with students being back around > (I'm a sysadmin at Vanderbilt University) Those students ought to be good for something. > but when things quiet down I > do intend to work on this. At the moment I sit daily in front of an SGI > Indigo2 running IRIX because it's better than Linux and integrates quite > well with our environment. I really want a FreeBSD workstation on my > desk, so I'll likely end up writing the patches just so I can get that > FreeBSD workstation integrated. But, no promises on a timeframe so if > someone else wants to get started now, then by all means charge right > ahead with it. Something I really liked about Irix was its userland mediad. Used to handle floppies and CDROM. Foreign filesystems were handled in userland daemons launched by medaid. This protected the kernel against corrupt filesystems. Made auto detection and mounting easy. I had cut some CD-R's with over 50,000 files and found I could increase the daemon's cache to 1MB or 2MB and greatly increase my access speed to the CDROM by caching the metadata. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 11:51:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-153.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962F137B40B for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 46B4266D46; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:51:15 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undefined symbol "__stderrp" Message-ID: <20010928115115.B13956@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010928152726.A765@office.naver.co.id> <3BB4587D.DCBBDBFD@CoreBit.com> <20010928064622.C59854@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010928064622.C59854@elvis.mu.org>; from bright@mu.org on Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 06:46:23AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 06:46:23AM -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Donny Lee [010928 06:01] wrote: > > John Indra wrote: > > > /usr/libexec/ld-elf.so.1: /usr/lib/libm.so.2: Undefined symbol > > > "__stderrp" =20 > > > Please don't flame me. I LOVE -CURRENT, it's just that I don't=20 > > > know C, and I am trying to get help on how to resolve this problem. > >=20 > > Don't mind those flames, they are alway there and help nothing... >=20 > You've never heard the reasoning behind teaching men to fish? :) Build a man a fire and you keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. Kris --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7tMaiWry0BWjoQKURApA/AKCZQO0L8zPaEkXPc5nhRjbERyRGjQCdE6mo b2HPIu8aw57RLLPA9/nsUec= =2fmW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 28 15:29:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BE937B40D for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BD71D169; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:29:04 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:29:03 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <427130000.1001716143@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Friday, September 28, 2001 00:48:06 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> For further reading, see >> http://members.tripod.com/~NH_PEACE_ACTION/Dispell_myths.htm >> >> I don't know about everything listed there, but from what I've read in >> various places before, what they say about the food situation is >> substantially true, and so is what they say about Saddam Hussein's >> spending on public infrastructure and improving the lives of his >> people. The same is true of Gadhafi in Libya, by the way. And >> neither of them is an Islamic fundamentalist. It doesn't mean they're >> nice guys, but there are far uglier people in that neighbourhood. > > If the sanctions are so problematic, there is an easy way to > end them: Saddam the great humanitarian could step down. Saddam's a very popular leader in Iraq. His people think he does a good job of standing up to US oppression. The people don't want him to step down, it's the US that wants that and about the only support they have in that view is the UK. All the other allies from the Gulf war gave up supporting the US' crusade against Saddam a long time ago. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 3:33:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.bsdlabs.com (meow.bsdlabs.com [66.123.5.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6361837B405 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 03:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (chern@localhost) by meow.bsdlabs.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f8TAX8h33512 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 03:33:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chern@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: meow.bsdlabs.com: chern owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 03:33:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Chern Lee X-X-Sender: To: Subject: Bad Drivers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:00 PM Friday the 28th: An individual with grey hair in an old red Toyota Hatchback (license plate 2VNP797) with the following bumper stickers: # Got Root? FreeBSD.org Free Kevin Cryptography is not a crime Cut me off on I5. You came six inches from what would've been an 80 mph fast-lane accident. Next time, please signal and look before making such dangerous lane changes. And if you do happen to make a mistake, please wave to apologize. Thanks, - chern To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 11:21: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FDB37B410 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.140.105.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.140.105]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8TIKba11032; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB61126.3321A396@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:21:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com> <20010928142314.B7471@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Terry Lambert said on Sep 28, 2001 at 01:57:09: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Capitalism is also a religion to many people in the US, because they > > > aren't willing to admit that there may be deficiencies in the > > > capitalist world view, that free markets don't cure all ills. It is > > > correct, everything else is wrong, infidel, dangerous. In the 1950s > > > many of America's best and brightest people were persecuted by this > > > capitalist (anti-communist) dogma. > > > > Standard Oil. IBM. Microsoft. Antitrust. Enough said. > > No, say some more. > > Antitrust is a capitalist idea. It is also a good idea, I happen to > think, though the Republicans disagree. It doesn't follow that all > capitalist ideas are good ideas, if that's what you're implying -- > if not, I don't understand what you're implying at all. I'm pointing out that your statement "free markets don't cure all ills" is not applicable to the U.S., since its markets are not free markets, they are controlled. In other words, Capitalism != Free Markets. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 11:47:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B64137B40C for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.140.105.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.140.105]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11024; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:47:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I'm frankly at a loss of words at your caricature of the Israel > situation throughout your emails, so I'll keep quiet; maybe someone > else will take the bait. I've been to Israel, and met many Israelis, > some as recently as last month, and while I wouldn't call them > unbiased they knew much more of the history of the situation than you > seem to and seemed to understand the Palestinian point of view much > better. We can continue this in private email if you like. To take the gloves off, the only reason the Middle East has not acted en masse against Israel is "U.S. Meddling". The U.S. gives a lot of money to Israel, and as a result, reins it in, as well as stalling its foes. Were the U.S. to take a laissez faire attitude, and let things proceed naturally in the region, Israels enemies would attack it, and they would be practically destroyed by Israel in the resulting conflict. In other words, the "U.S. meddling" is to ensure stability in the region, rather than "protecting Israel" -- it is, in fact, protecting other countries in the region _from_ Israel. > > India wanted to trade above the level needed to alleviate > > any unnecessary suffering of the civilian population in Iraq, > > What would you call "necessary suffering"? The deaths of 150000 > people through disease and starvation? Does it become "unnecessary" > only if it exceeds some threshold? Suffering as a result of the lack of aid. Suffering that results from Saddam gassing his own citizens will happen no matter what happens with the aid. > > Realize that the U.S. is currently free from outside rule > > because of a revolutionary war, in which "ordinary Americans" > > gave their lives in order to throw off the yoke of a nation > > which, at the time, was opressing them. > > > > I think that the basic issue that you are not understanding is > > that, given its origins, it is almost unimaginable for average > > U.S. citizens that someone starving to death because corrupt > > government officials are selling off relief supplies would not > > rise up, and similarly, give their lives to throw off the yoke > > those corrupt government officials. > > That's right; all over the world where corrupt dictatorial regimes > rule, be it Myanmar, or much of Africa, or China, or sundry other > places, it is the people who are at fault for not throwing out their > dictators. I wonder whether you realise what you sound like. Patrick Henry? > > > > I think that India's > > > > long standing conflict with Pakistan must color these views. > > > > > > Whose views? The puppet view, or the condom view, or my views in > > > these emails? > > > > Your statements regarding Pakistan, in these emails. > > This is getting interesting. Which statements? Most of my statements > have been quotes from the Pakistani press (admittedly, the liberal > sections of it). You statements -- whether your own, or as a result of the editorial choices you've made in selecting which source to quote -- paint Pakistan as the source of problems in the region, and completely ignore any blame which India itself shares for the situation. It takes two to Tango. > > > [ ... ] As a matter > > > of fact, India has more muslims than Pakistan does, > > > > What about as a percentage of the population, rather than as > > a raw count? Here's the answer: > > > > India Hindu 81.3% > > Muslim 12% > > Christian 2.3% > > Sikh 1.9% > > other groups including Buddhist, Jain, Parsi 2.5% > > > > Pakistan Muslim 97% (Sunni 77%, Shi'a 20%) > > Christian, Hindu, and other 3% > > > > And FWIW: > > > > Afghanistan Muslim 99% (Sunni 84%, Shi'a 15%), > > other 1% > > I know all that perfectly well. You are only proving that if > partition hadn't happened, the percentage of Muslims in India would > have been some 25% rather than 12%. Big difference, indeed. You > also said this self-segregation "has continued", which is absolutely > not true, at least not in India. It is a big difference: it means that the populations in both Pakistan and India would have been more heterogenous. It is in heterogeneous populations where tolerance is bred; political or religious fanatacism arises as a result of homogeneity, where extreme view find reinforcement instead of opposition. Consider a society in which fanatics exist as a damped, driven harmonic oscillator. When you remove the damping forces to the point that the magnitude of the driving forces exceeds them, then you get full blown fanaticism in the larger society. So long as the damping force is larger -- perhaps because the neighbor, a Muslim, who takes care of your children as you, a Hindu, run errands, is not some abstract, which can be painted as evil without possibility of refutation -- the society at large remains metastable. > As for your numbers: 12% of a billion people is a very large number. Yes. That's rather irrelevant, however. > And this number is not homogeneously mixed through the country; some > areas (parts of Uttar Pradesh in the north, or Hyderabad in the south, > for example) have large Muslim populations, perhaps 50% or more; other > parts have very few. This was rather my point, in quoting the C.I.A. statistics. The society in India is largely self selecting for ethnic density, and tends to create clusters within itself -- in the limit, sorting itself by ethnicity. I can't help but believe that this is an artifact of the not so historical caste system within the country (many Indian women even in the U.S. tend to wear caste marks, still; I know many who do... I saw three at work yesterday). > The proportion of muslims in mainstream > professions is comparable with, often better than, their proportion in > the population. Indeed, a quite disproportionately large fraction of > the more popular musicians and actors, for example, are muslim. > (Ironically, both these professions are banned by the Taliban.) The U.S. has the same situation with regard to ethnic density vs. profession for almost any ethnicity you could name. And yes, it causes friction. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 12:24: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAC237B40C for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.140.105.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.140.105]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14768; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB61EEC.FDF9BA9F@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:20:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> <427130000.1001716143@lobster.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > > If the sanctions are so problematic, there is an easy way to > > end them: Saddam the great humanitarian could step down. > > Saddam's a very popular leader in Iraq. His people think he does a good job > of standing up to US oppression. > > The people don't want him to step down, it's the US that wants that and > about the only support they have in that view is the UK. All the other > allies from the Gulf war gave up supporting the US' crusade against Saddam > a long time ago. I guess the sanctions aren't as problematic as people have been suggesting, then... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 12:32:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4797837B40A for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C3B1D169; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:32:18 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:32:18 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <726390000.1001791938@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3BB61EEC.FDF9BA9F@mindspring.com> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> <427130000.1001716143@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BB61EEC.FDF9BA9F@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Saturday, September 29, 2001 12:20:12 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > Paul Richards wrote: >> > If the sanctions are so problematic, there is an easy way to >> > end them: Saddam the great humanitarian could step down. >> >> Saddam's a very popular leader in Iraq. His people think he does a good >> job of standing up to US oppression. >> >> The people don't want him to step down, it's the US that wants that and >> about the only support they have in that view is the UK. All the other >> allies from the Gulf war gave up supporting the US' crusade against >> Saddam a long time ago. > > I guess the sanctions aren't as problematic as people have > been suggesting, then... How does that follow? Sanctions strengthen the population's support for Saddam because they see him as defending them against US oppression which is symbolised by the sanctions imposed on them. These sanctions are typical of non-sensical US foreign policy in that the outcome is the exact opposite of what is hoped for. Paul Richards To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 15:38:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A74137B409 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-29-157.dial.proxad.net [213.228.29.157]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC405F7A4 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:38:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 522 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Sep 2001 22:36:47 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:36:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930003647.A501@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com> <20010928142314.B7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB61126.3321A396@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB61126.3321A396@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:21:26AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 11:21:26: > > > Standard Oil. IBM. Microsoft. Antitrust. Enough said. > > > > No, say some more. > > > > Antitrust is a capitalist idea. It is also a good idea, I happen to > > think, though the Republicans disagree. It doesn't follow that all > > capitalist ideas are good ideas, if that's what you're implying -- > > if not, I don't understand what you're implying at all. > > I'm pointing out that your statement "free markets don't cure > all ills" is not applicable to the U.S., since its markets > are not free markets, they are controlled. In other words, > Capitalism != Free Markets. Hang on. Antitrust == Free Markets. It's in a way the whole point; no socialist or communist country has such a concept. The point is that you cannot have competition with a monopoly or cartels controlling supply, and the point of free markets is to have competition. I absolutely don't follow your arguments at all; I suspect you don't yourself. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 15:38:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0BDE37B41C for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-29-157.dial.proxad.net [213.228.29.157]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8056C5F7A4 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:38:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 428 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Sep 2001 22:33:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:33:18 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930003318.A384@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:47:42AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 11:47:42: > > > India wanted to trade above the level needed to alleviate > > > any unnecessary suffering of the civilian population in Iraq, > > > > What would you call "necessary suffering"? The deaths of 150000 > > people through disease and starvation? Does it become "unnecessary" > > only if it exceeds some threshold? > > Suffering as a result of the lack of aid. Suffering that > results from Saddam gassing his own citizens will happen no > matter what happens with the aid. As, no doubt, they were getting gassed before 1991 too. OK I'm tired of this, and as many others obviously realised long before I did, there's no point. So I'll stop here, replying briefly only to some of your India comments below. > > And this number is not homogeneously mixed through the country; some > > areas (parts of Uttar Pradesh in the north, or Hyderabad in the south, > > for example) have large Muslim populations, perhaps 50% or more; other > > parts have very few. > > This was rather my point, in quoting the C.I.A. statistics. > The society in India is largely self selecting for ethnic > density, and tends to create clusters within itself -- in > the limit, sorting itself by ethnicity. Another example of your ignorance of anything except CIA statistics. The inhomogeneity is historical. > caste system within the country (many Indian women even in > the U.S. tend to wear caste marks, still; I know many who > do... I saw three at work yesterday). Those aren't caste marks. They do tend to be associated with Hindus, but it is mostly just tradition, and to a large extent cosmetic: for that reason many Muslims and Christians (women) wear them occasionally in India (to Indian eyes it looks good). Partly it is dictated by dress: that is, they tend to wear them with Indian dress and particularly with sarees, but not with western dress. Perhaps you should take the trouble to ask your colleagues before spouting off on mailing lists. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 16:24:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8304E37B406 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8TNJ2687399; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:19:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3BB656DC.EA368B11@duth.gr> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:18:52 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> <427130000.1001716143@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BB61EEC.FDF9BA9F@mindspring.com> <726390000.1001791938@lobster.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > > --On Saturday, September 29, 2001 12:20:12 -0700 Terry Lambert > wrote: > > > Paul Richards wrote: > >> > If the sanctions are so problematic, there is an easy way to > >> > end them: Saddam the great humanitarian could step down. > >> > >> Saddam's a very popular leader in Iraq. His people think he does a good > >> job of standing up to US oppression. > >> > >> The people don't want him to step down, it's the US that wants that and > >> about the only support they have in that view is the UK. All the other > >> allies from the Gulf war gave up supporting the US' crusade against > >> Saddam a long time ago. > > > > I guess the sanctions aren't as problematic as people have > > been suggesting, then... > > How does that follow? > > Sanctions strengthen the population's support for Saddam because they see > him as defending them against US oppression which is symbolised by the > sanctions imposed on them. These sanctions are typical of non-sensical US > foreign policy in that the outcome is the exact opposite of what is hoped > for. You *assume* that the US really wants Saddam to step down, merely because they say so... well, you know what they say about assumptions. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 17:17: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4BA37B40B for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-46-132.dial.proxad.net [212.27.46.132]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD20184 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:17:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 341 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Sep 2001 00:11:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:11:57 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:47:42AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 11:47:42: > caste system within the country (many Indian women even in > the U.S. tend to wear caste marks, still; I know many who > do... I saw three at work yesterday). In my earlier reply to this, I assumed by "caste mark" you meant the "bindi" (the name varies from region to region), the spot which women often wear in the centre of the forehead, since that's the only thing I can think of which may distinguish an Indian woman from a non-Indian woman. Correct me if that's not what you meant. As I said earlier, not only does it not indicate caste, very often it does not indicate religion either. (Nor nationality, since you will see it in Nepal, Sri Lanka, and perhaps Bangladesh. In fact, I've seen it worn by French women in France; when I asked a waitress in a restaurant about the one she was wearing, she said it was just for "fun.") You *may* be thinking of forehead markings worn for religious reasons which tend to vary among castes (eg, Iyengars in the south have a peculiar style, and this is sported only by the men, not the women). These are increasingly rare even in India except in traditional settings and religious occasions, so while I could be charitable and assume that you were thinking of some such thing, it's far more likely that as usual you stepped way out of your field of expertise and don't have a clue what you're talking about. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 20:59:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F0A37B403 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.253.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.253]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17294; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB69897.28A203AB@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:59:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <20010926204026.D10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB42B36.7E66988D@mindspring.com> <427130000.1001716143@lobster.originative.co.uk> <3BB61EEC.FDF9BA9F@mindspring.com> <726390000.1001791938@lobster.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > >> > If the sanctions are so problematic, there is an easy way to > >> > end them: Saddam the great humanitarian could step down. > >> > >> Saddam's a very popular leader in Iraq. His people think he does a good > >> job of standing up to US oppression. > >> > >> The people don't want him to step down, it's the US that wants that and > >> about the only support they have in that view is the UK. All the other > >> allies from the Gulf war gave up supporting the US' crusade against > >> Saddam a long time ago. > > > > I guess the sanctions aren't as problematic as people have > > been suggesting, then... > > How does that follow? Are you not reading the same conversation I am? The direct implication of the statement to which I was responding was that the sanctions were tolerable, from the point of view of the people of Iraq. This follows from their tolerance of them. > Sanctions strengthen the population's support for Saddam because they see > him as defending them against US oppression which is symbolised by the > sanctions imposed on them. These sanctions are typical of non-sensical US > foreign policy in that the outcome is the exact opposite of what is hoped > for. I don't agree with your conclusions here, but if I did, then it would only support the argument that the sanctions are a burden they are prepared to bear. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 21:43:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5660637B406 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.253.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.253]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8U4grC01951; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB6A2FD.D6546160@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:43:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com> <20010928142314.B7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB61126.3321A396@mindspring.com> <20010930003647.A501@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Antitrust is a capitalist idea. It is also a good idea, I happen to > > > think, though the Republicans disagree. It doesn't follow that all > > > capitalist ideas are good ideas, if that's what you're implying -- > > > if not, I don't understand what you're implying at all. > > > > I'm pointing out that your statement "free markets don't cure > > all ills" is not applicable to the U.S., since its markets > > are not free markets, they are controlled. In other words, > > Capitalism != Free Markets. > > Hang on. Antitrust == Free Markets. It's in a way the whole point; > no socialist or communist country has such a concept. The reason for this should be obvious: if the state controls the means of production, then it is the state which has the monopoly. Thus the only people available to file an antitrust suit against would be themselves, which is ridiculous. This is the true reason that political philosophies which have as one of their major tenets state control of the means of production do not have laws against monopolies. > The point is that you cannot have competition with a monopoly > or cartels controlling supply, and the point of free markets is > to have competition. I absolutely don't follow your arguments > at all; Capitalism has the concept of permitting regulated monopolies. There are many historical and current examples in the U.S. of regulated monopolies. Professional Baseball is a regulated monopoly. AT&T was a regulated monopoly: prior to their breakup by Judge Greene, AT&T was not permitted to make money in the software market; this is one of the reasons that there were university licenses for the UNIX source code in the first place. In fact, any country which has a patent system supports the idea of regulated monopolies. Any time you have any regulation whatsoever, you do not have a free market: free markets have no constraints. I am not aware of any capitalist country which actually has had a free market, and kept the idea intact for anything other than a very short period of time, in all of history. > I suspect you don't yourself. This is an ad hominim attack, and does nothing to bolster your argument: rather, it detracts from it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 21:52:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B794037B406 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.253.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.253]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8U4q8C23308; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB6A529.1C45D0EF@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:52:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930003318.A384@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Another example of your ignorance of anything except CIA statistics. > The inhomogeneity is historical. Well, then clearly it must be a "good thing", right? > > caste system within the country (many Indian women even in > > the U.S. tend to wear caste marks, still; I know many who > > do... I saw three at work yesterday). > > Those aren't caste marks. They do tend to be associated with Hindus, > but it is mostly just tradition, and to a large extent cosmetic: for > that reason many Muslims and Christians (women) wear them occasionally > in India (to Indian eyes it looks good). Partly it is dictated by > dress: that is, they tend to wear them with Indian dress and > particularly with sarees, but not with western dress. Perhaps you > should take the trouble to ask your colleagues before spouting off on > mailing lists. Good answer to a parenthetical observation, while ducking the main point, which was that India's society has been historically segregated, and that this is the root of many of the social ills which we do not see frequently in the U.S., unless they are enacted by outside agents (as in the 11 September attacks). To answer your claim about "spouting off": I was _told_ by two of those collegues that they were caste marks. So while your general claims of "fashion" may be correct, in the specific instances I was citing, you are wrong. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 21:56:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C9337B405 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.253.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.253]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8U4uHC02185; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:57:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 11:47:42: > > caste system within the country (many Indian women even in > > the U.S. tend to wear caste marks, still; I know many who > > do... I saw three at work yesterday). > > In my earlier reply to this, I assumed by "caste mark" you meant the > "bindi" (the name varies from region to region), the spot which women > often wear in the centre of the forehead, since that's the only thing > I can think of which may distinguish an Indian woman from a non-Indian > woman. Correct me if that's not what you meant. As I said earlier, > not only does it not indicate caste, very often it does not indicate > religion either. (Nor nationality, since you will see it in Nepal, > Sri Lanka, and perhaps Bangladesh. In fact, I've seen it worn by > French women in France; when I asked a waitress in a restaurant about > the one she was wearing, she said it was just for "fun.") > > You *may* be thinking of forehead markings worn for religious reasons > which tend to vary among castes (eg, Iyengars in the south have a > peculiar style, and this is sported only by the men, not the women). > These are increasingly rare even in India except in traditional > settings and religious occasions, so while I could be charitable and > assume that you were thinking of some such thing, This is, in fact, the case, at least for the examples I was giving, according to the examples themselves ...as I pointed out in a previous email. > it's far more likely > that as usual you stepped way out of your field of expertise and don't > have a clue what you're talking about. Can we stop with the ad hominim attacks already? They do not make your arguments more persuasive. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 22: 3:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F39637B403 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.253.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.253]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8U53AT04285; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:03:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > it's far more likely > > that as usual you stepped way out of your field of expertise and don't > > have a clue what you're talking about. > > Can we stop with the ad hominim attacks already? They do not > make your arguments more persuasive. PS: I will happily listen to your alternative theories as to why there is continued ethnic and religious violence in India; I'm willing to admit that the scholarly sources from which I have derived my own opinions may be wrong, even if they agree in the great majority... they are, after all, predominantly English language sources (there's a dearth of Tamil, Devengari, and other Indic script writing on the subject on the Internet, or perhaps it's just badly indexed). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 29 23:21:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D165337B409; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 23:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0255501; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 01:19:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-24.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.24]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C215001F; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:21:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 58F20330F; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:23:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF664C10; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:23:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:23:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Chern Lee Cc: Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Chern Lee wrote: > Cut me off on I5. You came six inches from what would've been an 80 mph > fast-lane accident. Shoot, you should have see the local city cop at midnight in after-festival traffic... Jumped three lanes at 65 -- in a 50. No lights, no turn-signals ... just jumped. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message