From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 7 11:12:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from VisaPro.com (lsanca1-ar2-013-165.lsanca1.dsl.gtei.net [4.33.13.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B96BC37B409 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:12:22 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org From: Lucy Subject: ONLINE IMMIGRATION - TRAVEL VISAS - GREEN CARD LOTTERY MIME-Version: 1.0 (produced by IP*Works! www.dev-soft.com) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20011007181222.B96BC37B409@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings! You are cordially invited to attend the launch of VisaPro. www.VisaPro.com Complete Online Visa Processing - It's Fast, Easy & Economical. 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If you do not wish to receive our email please let us know and we will REMOVE your email immediately. ***************************************************************************= * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 7 21:19: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FF437B406 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21014; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:18:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:18:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Evan Sarmiento Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Active Directory In-Reply-To: <200110062149.f96LnFj26783@csa.bu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat... This is not appropriate for -stable. On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Evan Sarmiento wrote: > My high school recently hired a new technology coordinator. > Instead of using open source software, the coordinator redesigned > the network to support Windows 2000 and Active Directory. For > those of you who do not know what Active Directory is: Active > Directory is an LDAP server which delineates what privledges each > host on the network has, etc. I've read every message in this thread so far and all I have to say is that, as the network administrator of a large K-12 institution, I can sympathise with some of his learyness of allowing any kind of "foreign" machine on the network. Due to our non-unique situation in the under-staffed world of public education, I have essentially become a network-Nazi and would readily flip the switch disallowing any machine that I did not personally configure (or, actually, design the custom installation system for in our case) on the network if it wouldn't suddenly cut off quite a few machines that we have not had time to get to since we took over several years (!) ago. There is just me and one other person in our tech department dealing with about 3000 users and nearly 1000 workstations on a shoestring budget, and this is a pretty common situation for public schools. In four years we had a ten-fold increase in the number of machines on the network with no additional staff or increase of our budget (though that is changing, I hope). Even if your technology coordinator has half as many workstations and users and three times the budget and staff that we do, I still sympathize with his learyness of foreign machines introduced into the relatively fragile entity we call a "network". It has become a conditioned reaction to just say NO to any request that doesn't immediately seem like a technically sound idea when you're in a situation like that, and the only thing that will change that is an infinite budget and an infinite abundance of well-trained network monkeys jumping around to handle every little problem that would pop up if everybody were allowed to do whatever they wanted. > I asked him his policy on laptops. After a long conversation, he > said: "I do not allow any laptops running *NIX to be placed on the > network, as I believe it will interfere with Active Directory." The AD fear is unfounded, but see above why I don't like the idea of foreign machines on "my" network. This might be his way of saying the same thing. > I tried to explain to him how false his assumption was, but, he > would not recant his infamy. I can understand, in a way -- He > wants to make sure that the network is running for students to > use. That is generally the number one priority. > How would I go about convincing this enthusiast that FreeBSD will > not somehow interfere with Active Directory? This is what I have > tried so far. The answer would be to convince him that you can configure a machine properly so that it won't ever interfere with anything on the network and gain his trust. Going above his head to the boss (as you mentioned in another message) is not one way to do that. As an aside, I DO allow "untrusted" machines on our network in a couple of locations, both of which are on their own segmented and firewalled networks. They happen to be computer tech classes in our vocational school which obviously require an environment more open to "experimentation". I also keep an eye on every one of our networks via an intrusion detection system as well as network protocol analyzers. I immediately know when anything goes out of whack and the owner of any machine causing anything to go even slightly out of whack is likely to get one him/her-self in some form or another. If I can do that given our staff situation and budget, so can your technology coordinator. It only requires a clue and a good implementation of it. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 5:53:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cs.bu.edu (CS.BU.EDU [128.197.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B71337B407 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 05:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csa.bu.edu (evms@csa [128.197.12.3]) by cs.bu.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f98CrWA13278; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from evms@localhost) by csa.bu.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f98CrSx29406; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:53:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Evan Sarmiento MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15297.41416.171067.316227@csa.bu.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:53:28 -0400 (EDT) To: Chris Dillon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Active Directory In-Reply-To: References: <200110062149.f96LnFj26783@csa.bu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Our situation is a little different. I go to a private school. The coordinator has to take care of fourteen PCs in the lab and the ten or so iMACS the faculty has. He's not oppossed to us configuring our own machines. He told me that he would allow anyone to connect Windows 9x boxen to the network, he's _only_ opposed to UNIX boxen. Our school, (you might already have head this), is intertwined with Boston University. You could assume that the Boston University IT officials are his superiors. In any case, the University allows any sort of laptop or computer to be used on the network, but, they only allow support for certain operating systems. There are about thirty to forty people who take care of numerous clusters and atleast 20,000 boxen. It seems that one person would be able to handle 24 computers, which work perfectly most of the time. Secondly, I've contacted a BU Systems Analyist at the IT department. He told me that this action was unacceptable -- and he would have a meeting with the tech coordinator on Wednesday to [persuade|force] him to allow *NIX laptops and computers on the network. Thanks, Evan Chris Dillon writes: > Moved to -chat... This is not appropriate for -stable. > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Evan Sarmiento wrote: > > > My high school recently hired a new technology coordinator. > > Instead of using open source software, the coordinator redesigned > > the network to support Windows 2000 and Active Directory. For > > those of you who do not know what Active Directory is: Active > > Directory is an LDAP server which delineates what privledges each > > host on the network has, etc. > > I've read every message in this thread so far and all I have to say is > that, as the network administrator of a large K-12 institution, I can > sympathise with some of his learyness of allowing any kind of > "foreign" machine on the network. > > Due to our non-unique situation in the under-staffed world of public > education, I have essentially become a network-Nazi and would readily > flip the switch disallowing any machine that I did not personally > configure (or, actually, design the custom installation system for in > our case) on the network if it wouldn't suddenly cut off quite a few > machines that we have not had time to get to since we took over > several years (!) ago. > > There is just me and one other person in our tech department dealing > with about 3000 users and nearly 1000 workstations on a shoestring > budget, and this is a pretty common situation for public schools. In > four years we had a ten-fold increase in the number of machines on the > network with no additional staff or increase of our budget (though > that is changing, I hope). Even if your technology coordinator has > half as many workstations and users and three times the budget and > staff that we do, I still sympathize with his learyness of foreign > machines introduced into the relatively fragile entity we call a > "network". It has become a conditioned reaction to just say NO to any > request that doesn't immediately seem like a technically sound idea > when you're in a situation like that, and the only thing that will > change that is an infinite budget and an infinite abundance of > well-trained network monkeys jumping around to handle every little > problem that would pop up if everybody were allowed to do whatever > they wanted. > > > I asked him his policy on laptops. After a long conversation, he > > said: "I do not allow any laptops running *NIX to be placed on the > > network, as I believe it will interfere with Active Directory." > > The AD fear is unfounded, but see above why I don't like the idea of > foreign machines on "my" network. This might be his way of saying the > same thing. > > > I tried to explain to him how false his assumption was, but, he > > would not recant his infamy. I can understand, in a way -- He > > wants to make sure that the network is running for students to > > use. > > That is generally the number one priority. > > > How would I go about convincing this enthusiast that FreeBSD will > > not somehow interfere with Active Directory? This is what I have > > tried so far. > > The answer would be to convince him that you can configure a machine > properly so that it won't ever interfere with anything on the network > and gain his trust. Going above his head to the boss (as you > mentioned in another message) is not one way to do that. > > As an aside, I DO allow "untrusted" machines on our network in a > couple of locations, both of which are on their own segmented and > firewalled networks. They happen to be computer tech classes in our > vocational school which obviously require an environment more open to > "experimentation". I also keep an eye on every one of our networks > via an intrusion detection system as well as network protocol > analyzers. I immediately know when anything goes out of whack and the > owner of any machine causing anything to go even slightly out of whack > is likely to get one him/her-self in some form or another. If I can > do that given our staff situation and budget, so can your technology > coordinator. It only requires a clue and a good implementation of it. > > > -- > Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net > FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet > - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures > - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development > - http://www.freebsd.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 6:59:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E5437B401 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 06:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26815; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:59:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:59:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Evan Sarmiento Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Active Directory In-Reply-To: <15297.41416.171067.316227@csa.bu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, Evan Sarmiento wrote: > Our situation is a little different. I go to a private school. The > coordinator has to take care of fourteen PCs in the lab and the > ten or so iMACS the faculty has. He's not oppossed to us > configuring our own machines. He told me that he would allow > anyone to connect Windows 9x boxen to the network, he's _only_ > opposed to UNIX boxen. Ah, well, that's different. In my situation, I'm actually more opposed to various stray Windows boxen (which always seem to be mis-configured) showing up on the network than I am of any kind of *nix box. I'd actually prefer a whole bunch more *nix boxes (FreeBSD especially) around here, but that isn't the way the world works at this time. > Our school, (you might already have head this), is intertwined > with Boston University. You could assume that the Boston > University IT officials are his superiors. In any case, the > University allows any sort of laptop or computer to be used on the > network, but, they only allow support for certain operating > systems. There are about thirty to forty people who take care of > numerous clusters and atleast 20,000 boxen. One person for every 500 machines... That's stretching staff quite a bit if every one of the machines is owned/managed by the school, but I'm assuming that a good number of those are actually student-owned machines. > It seems that one person would be able to handle 24 computers, > which work perfectly most of the time. Yes, that should be no problem for anyone except possibly a technophobe. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 12:34:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11901.mail.yahoo.com (web11901.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 53E4737B407 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.33.193.159] by web11901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:34:23 PDT Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:34:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Unhappy Adobe Customer Subject: SSSCA? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi everyone, What do you folks think about the "draft" SSSCA? For those of you who haven't heard, Disney and some entertainment conglomerates think all digital electronics and software should be forced to contain copyright enforcement. They've come up with this ridiculous draft where "trafficking" in non-compliant devices is punished by 5 years in prison (as if computer software is narcotics). If this passes, I think it could essentially outlaw "free software", "open source" or whatever you want to call it. Even if this isn't done by law, getting software support for crippled hardware may be all but impossible. What do you think? Nathan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 15:22: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ipcard.iptcom.net (ipcard.iptcom.net [212.9.224.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020FE37B409 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from notebook.vega.com (h236.228.dialup.iptcom.net [212.9.228.236]) by ipcard.iptcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA60356; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:20:19 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 01:20:19 +0300 (EEST) Message-Id: <200110082220.BAA60356@ipcard.iptcom.net> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: kris@obsecurity.org, nate@yogotech.com, lyndon@atg.aciworldwide.com, ticso@mail.cicely.de, chat@FreeBSD.org From: Maxim Sobolev Subject: Re: uucp @ sourceforge X-Mailer: Pygmy (v0.5.11) In-Reply-To: <3BC1EBC2.11538589@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat, since it has nothing to do with -current] On Mon, 08 Oct 2001 11:09:06 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > > Sourceforge is based on the premise that you can create an > > > Open Source project by declaring one, which is untrue. If > > > you want my opnions in detail, check the -chat and -advocacy > > > archives. > > > > I am not sure how this could defeat the fact that you can get a necessary > > ftp/www/cvs/etc space easily. > > It doesn't defeat that. > > It only defeats the project living on after I am run over by > a bus, since the project will be unable to attract outside > participation if it is hosted at SourceForge. > > You can't cookie-cutter Open Source projects, at least not the > way they are trying to do it. I am sure that number of people involved in successful projects hosted at SF would be quite surprised hearing this. Personally I can name dozen on such projects, and I'm sure that it if only a fraction of the total number. It is not a magic bullet, granted, but it isn't a devil's seed either. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to advocate SF, just trying to point out that such a black&white view is oversimplistic and things like SF have their own niche at current opensource landscape. If you don't like it, well that's your right - host elsewhere, but please don't try to substantiate your theories by throwing away facts that don't support them. > As I said before, you need to read my objections in the > -current and -advocacy lists. I'll take a look at them when I have a time. > Realize that I have participated in the genesis of no less > than 5 open source projects, 4 of which are still going. Ok, I've realised. :) -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 15:49:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EAE7137B401 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 93451 invoked by uid 100); 8 Oct 2001 22:49:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15298.11623.538331.103409@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:49:11 -0500 To: Unhappy Adobe Customer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unhappy Adobe Customer types: > What do you folks think about the "draft" SSSCA? It's the logical next step after the DMCA, and sucks ever so much more so. > If this passes, I think it could essentially outlaw "free software", > "open source" or whatever you want to call it. A lot depends on the licensing of the "required technology". That may well be patented and require a per-user license fee. Some of the proposed technologies have NDA's all over them. If you can't release source to those technologies because of NDA, then it kills open source. If you have to pay a per-user license fee of some kind, it kills free software. If neither of those are true, then it won't make any difference. Even if we miss both of those land mines, the implications are rather frightening. > Even if this isn't done by law, getting software support for > crippled hardware may be all but impossible. What do you think? Again, the proposed hardware solutions all have nasty licensing attached to getting development information - which makes supporting that hardware difficult. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 16:48:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id A5C6137B406; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:48:29 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Evan Sarmiento Cc: Chris Dillon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Active Directory Message-ID: <20011008164829.A92009@FreeBSD.org> References: <200110062149.f96LnFj26783@csa.bu.edu> <15297.41416.171067.316227@csa.bu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15297.41416.171067.316227@csa.bu.edu>; from evms@cs.bu.edu on Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 08:53:28AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Our situation is a little different. I go to a private school. The coordinator > has to take care of fourteen PCs in the lab and the ten or so iMACS the faculty has. He's > not oppossed to us configuring our own machines. He told me that > he would allow anyone to connect Windows 9x boxen to the network, > he's _only_ opposed to UNIX boxen. Bring in some OS X boxes. "Look, it's MacOS" :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 8 18:32:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3CB3D37B406 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22153 invoked by uid 50005); 9 Oct 2001 01:28:21 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpb with qmail-scanner-1.00 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4164. . Clean. Processed in 0.270947 secs); 09 Oct 2001 01:28:21 -0000 Received: from du211010.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.211.10]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Oct 2001 01:28:20 -0000 Message-ID: <3BC24D1C.1AFD7F2F@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:04:28 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > j mckitrick writes: > > > I finally took several people's advice. I didn't give up VI, but emacs > > is amazing for big, complicated jobs. > > I've been using only Emacs (actually mostly XEmacs and some small Emacs > clones like Jed) for a long time, but recently decided it would be > better to try to force myself to use vi for editing as root. (I learned > it 20 years ago and liked the two-mode concept, but I've forgotten all > but the very basics.) > > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect > that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am > thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. > > Is that overly paranoid? Do other people have this concern? Do many > people run XEmacs or Emacs as root on a regular basis? Does vim have a > lot of similarly suspectable code in it too? If memory serves, the Great Worm of '88 exploited a security hole in Emacs (among other things). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 6: 9:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.184.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3177B37B403 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 06:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f99D93518200; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:09:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lowell) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 09 Oct 2001 09:09:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: tms2@mail.ptd.net's message of "9 Oct 2001 09:32:40 +0800" Message-ID: <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org tms2@mail.ptd.net ("T.M. Sommers") writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > j mckitrick writes: > > > > > I finally took several people's advice. I didn't give up VI, but emacs > > > is amazing for big, complicated jobs. > > > > I've been using only Emacs (actually mostly XEmacs and some small Emacs > > clones like Jed) for a long time, but recently decided it would be > > better to try to force myself to use vi for editing as root. (I learned > > it 20 years ago and liked the two-mode concept, but I've forgotten all > > but the very basics.) > > > > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect > > that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am > > thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. > > > > Is that overly paranoid? Do other people have this concern? Do many > > people run XEmacs or Emacs as root on a regular basis? Does vim have a > > lot of similarly suspectable code in it too? > > If memory serves, the Great Worm of '88 exploited a security hole in > Emacs (among other things). No. rsh, sendmail, and finger daemons. No user applications. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 11:32:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-227.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DB437B412 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 18FF566B3F; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:32:25 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Peter Cornelius Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Walnut BDSDI Windriver Subs now gone? Message-ID: <20011009113224.B23270@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <19888.1002621201@www8.gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <19888.1002621201@www8.gmx.net>; from pcc@gmx.net on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:53:21AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:53:21AM +0200, Peter Cornelius wrote: > Kris, Edwin, The List,... >=20 > ... thanks for the pointers. Interesting, though, that there seems to be > little to=20 > read @ Wind River... Just when I thought that there was some 'solid' > economic support=20 > for those involved most... >=20 > Looking forward to whatever may come, provided 'FreeBSE' survives which I > think it=20 > will... Is FreeBSE something you get when you buy a kilogram of beef in the UK? Kris --ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7w0K4Wry0BWjoQKURAtkGAJsFCA8cK8lEEAdQkkH/Yjm63new1QCfapUW 3+Fy+dWDG/Vjy7wXp80C0xU= =w7lG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 11:52: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EAB37B403 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.25.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.25] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15r1z0-0003VY-00; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:52:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:52:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Unhappy Adobe Customer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unhappy Adobe Customer wrote: > What do you folks think about the "draft" SSSCA? For those of > you who haven't heard, Disney and some entertainment > conglomerates think all digital electronics and software > should be forced to contain copyright enforcement. They've > come up with this ridiculous draft where "trafficking" in > non-compliant devices is punished by 5 years in prison (as if > computer software is narcotics). If this passes, I think it > could essentially outlaw "free software", "open source" or > whatever you want to call it. Even if this isn't done by law, > getting software support for crippled hardware may be all but > impossible. What do you think? I pos facto. (Translation: you can't make something illegal after the fact). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 12: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2040137B407 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 60898 invoked by uid 100); 9 Oct 2001 19:00:16 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15299.18752.343449.732026@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:00:16 -0500 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Unhappy Adobe Customer wrote: > > What do you folks think about the "draft" SSSCA? For those of > > you who haven't heard, Disney and some entertainment > > conglomerates think all digital electronics and software > > should be forced to contain copyright enforcement. They've > > come up with this ridiculous draft where "trafficking" in > > non-compliant devices is punished by 5 years in prison (as if > > computer software is narcotics). If this passes, I think it > > could essentially outlaw "free software", "open source" or > > whatever you want to call it. Even if this isn't done by law, > > getting software support for crippled hardware may be all but > > impossible. What do you think? > I pos facto. > > (Translation: you can't make something illegal after the fact). But you can always make doing it again illegal. In this case, the SSSCA include provision that exclude all products that were in production before the bill takes effect. But allowing anonymous CVS access to a program that didn't incorporate the approriate security technology would become illlegal with the first commit after the bill takes effect. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 14:26:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11908.mail.yahoo.com (web11908.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77C1237B407 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20011009212648.94725.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.33.193.159] by web11908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:26:48 PDT Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) From: NGH Subject: Re: SSSCA? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <15299.18752.343449.732026@guru.mired.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Mike Meyer wrote: > Terry Lambert types: > > I pos facto. > > > > (Translation: you can't make something illegal after the fact). > > But you can always make doing it again illegal. That's *exactly* what concerns me. If this horror of a law passes, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, as entertainment companies have deep pockets and can push these things through, then one of three things would happen: 1. Free or Open software would be illegal in the U.S., or 2. Licensing, NDAs, etc. effectively make said software impossible to distribute, or 3. Both of the above. What further concerns me is that SSSCA is very broad and general. If I read it correctly, it affects all digital devices, meaning nearly all electronics in the country, whether or not they're related to entertainment. This means Disney's policeware needs to be present in, say, control systems for industrial machines. We are essentially looking at a huge "tax" (in license fees) on anything digital. This means that hobbyists and guys who work out of garages won't be able to (legally) make electronic components. This kind of legislation would stuff entertainment companies' pockets at the enormous loss of legitimate individuals and businesses. Of course, one thing always leads to another. SSSCA is the next step after DMCA. You have to stop for a moment and ask yourself, what comes after this? I don't know about you, but I think this is an outrage. -Nathan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 14:49:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4BD437B40B for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 69424 invoked by uid 100); 9 Oct 2001 21:49:18 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15299.28894.97760.994589@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:49:18 -0500 To: NGH Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011009212648.94725.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <15299.18752.343449.732026@guru.mired.org> <20011009212648.94725.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NGH types: > --- Mike Meyer wrote: > > Terry Lambert types: > > > I pos facto. > > > (Translation: you can't make something illegal after the fact). > > But you can always make doing it again illegal. > That's *exactly* what concerns me. If this horror of a law passes, > and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, as entertainment companies > have deep pockets and can push these things through Since they've been rewriting copyright law to their advantage pretty much at will for over a century, there's a lot of precedent for them to succeed here.g > then one of three things would happen: > > 1. Free or Open software would be illegal in the U.S., or > 2. Licensing, NDAs, etc. effectively make said software impossible > to distribute, or > 3. Both of the above. It's the middle one that's the problem. The SSSCA doesn't outlaw any particular class of software, it just requires all software to contain an as yet unspecified antitheft technology. > What further concerns me is that SSSCA is very broad and general. > If I read it correctly, it affects all digital devices, meaning > nearly all electronics in the country, whether or not they're > related to entertainment. This means Disney's policeware needs to > be present in, say, control systems for industrial machines. We > are essentially looking at a huge "tax" (in license fees) on > anything digital. It covers programs as well as devices. > This means that hobbyists and guys who work out of garages won't > be able to (legally) make electronic components. Actually, it wouldn't shut down hobbyists. It would make it illegal for the hobbyists to sell or give away such such things after they built them - unless they incorporated the appropriate technology. My worry is that the licensing issues will kill garage startups. The extra financial burden would have killed Apple, and possibly HP. MS would have been just fine, as Gates was rich before he founded the company. It also makes it illegal to disable the technology in any device which has it. Which means that while it would be perfectly legal for me to give someone a copy of FreeBSD that predates the legislation, it would be illegal for them to install it over an OS that included that legislation. > This kind of legislation would stuff entertainment companies' > pockets at the enormous loss of legitimate individuals and > businesses. They've been doing that for over a century. Either by tweaking copyright law, or more recently in collusion with hardware companies. John Gilmore describes some of the cases in . > Of course, one thing always leads to another. SSSCA is the next step > after DMCA. You have to stop for a moment and ask yourself, what > comes after this? The inability of consumers to actually own a copy of any content, instead requiring that they to for each use. Legal and financial obstacles to the production of any content that might compete with the people behind the bill, along the lines of DMR or the DVD recorders described by John. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 17:40:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C13A37B405 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA13479; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:40:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Oct 2001 02:40:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > I pos facto. > > (Translation: you can't make something illegal after the fact). Actually, I think "I pos facto" translates to "Terry doesn't know latin". The US Constitution's Article I, Section 10 states (from memory) "No state shall pass any ex post facto law". The latin expression "ex post facto" translates rougly into "because of a subsequent fact", i.e. you can't punish someone for something they did if it wasn't illegal at the time, even if it became illegal later. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 17:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C07337B406 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00209; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:53:14 -0600 To: NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011009212648.94725.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <15299.18752.343449.732026@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:26 PM 10/9/2001, NGH wrote: >That's *exactly* what concerns me. If this horror of a law passes, >and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, as entertainment companies >have deep pockets and can push these things through, then one of >three things would happen: > >1. Free or Open software would be illegal in the U.S., or >2. Licensing, NDAs, etc. effectively make said software impossible > to distribute, or >3. Both of the above. It wouldn't be bad if the GPL were finally ruled to be invalid! ;-) However, the chance that a law restricting software or hardware in that way would pass is virtually nil. The number of companies affected is so huge -- and they have so much money -- that the entertainment industry looks tiny by comparison. And many of their industries have big, powerful lobbying organizations. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 19:33:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E69E37B406 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 78987 invoked by uid 100); 10 Oct 2001 02:32:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15299.45856.943333.613270@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:32:00 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> References: <15299.18752.343449.732026@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 03:26 PM 10/9/2001, NGH wrote: > >That's *exactly* what concerns me. If this horror of a law passes, > >and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, as entertainment companies > >have deep pockets and can push these things through, then one of > >three things would happen: > >1. Free or Open software would be illegal in the U.S., or > >2. Licensing, NDAs, etc. effectively make said software impossible > > to distribute, or > >3. Both of the above. > It wouldn't be bad if the GPL were finally ruled to be invalid! ;-) > However, the chance that a law restricting software or hardware in > that way would pass is virtually nil. The number of companies > affected is so huge -- and they have so much money -- that the > entertainment industry looks tiny by comparison. And many of > their industries have big, powerful lobbying organizations. The big hardware and software companies are already working on products designed to satisfy the bill - and earn them a slice of every computing product sold that uses them. See and for more information. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 19:38:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E5737B409 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA53252; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:38:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:38:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass Cc: NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > However, the chance that a law restricting software or hardware in > that way would pass is virtually nil. Are you really this naive, or have simply not paying attention to how Congress treats copyright law? Of course this piece of horseshit is going to pass, barring a massive grassroots outcry against it, with some major support from civil liberties organizations. The for-profit hardware and software giants are tripping all over themselves to implement something like this! Ever hear of CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media), and how hard IBM, Intel, Toshiba, and Matsushita are pushing to have it included in the ATA standard? How about the DMCA, and the industry giants that supported it? Make no mistake about it, "they" want to control what digital content you get to see, hear, and read, "they" do, in fact, care what operating system you run at home. I heard on NPR a little while ago that recording industry groups are suing over cellphone "ring tones" that sound like copyrighted musical recordings, claiming that the industry has lost "millions" in revenue due to their existence. If no one does anything about the SSSCA and it actually makes it to the floor of the Senate and/or House, FreeBSD, Linux, etc. *will* be outlawed, and it will be a long god damned battle in the courts and back in Congress to undo the damage. Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 21:45:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C043F37B406 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02751; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:45:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:45:26 -0600 To: "Jasper O'Malley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:38 PM 10/9/2001, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >> However, the chance that a law restricting software or hardware in >> that way would pass is virtually nil. > >Are you really this naive, or have simply not paying attention to how >Congress treats copyright law? Congress treats copyright law the same way it treats any other law: the most powerful, richest interests and the biggest campaign contributors win. And you can bet that heavy hitters such as Microsoft, AOL, HP, Compaq, Dell, Sun, EDS, and IBM -- to name just a few -- will oppose it. They don't want anything legislated into their products. >Ever hear of CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media) Dead in the water. >Make no mistake about it, "they" want to control what digital content you >get to see, hear, and read, Of course they do. But they won't. We can lobby our representatives in Congress, but it'll do little good. If we want results, all we have to do is make sure that the big corporations know what Hollings' foolish bill will do... and Poof! it'll vanish in committee. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 22:32:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (www.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D4C37B406 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA53960; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:32:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:32:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass Cc: NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Congress treats copyright law the same way it treats any other law: > the most powerful, richest interests and the biggest campaign > contributors win. And you can bet that heavy hitters such as Microsoft, > AOL, HP, Compaq, Dell, Sun, EDS, and IBM -- to name just a few -- will > oppose it. They don't want anything legislated into their products. Are you kidding me? They're *writing* the "digital rights management" software and *building* the "digital rights management" hardware, and they're forming alliances to do it. > >Ever hear of CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media) > > Dead in the water. You and I wish. IBM simply withdrew the proposal to include it in the latest revision of the ATA standard. Look for it to make a speedy comeback if SSSCA is passed. > >Make no mistake about it, "they" want to control what digital content you > >get to see, hear, and read, > > Of course they do. But they won't. I'd like to think so, but it will take a concerted effort by civil libertarians and open source advocates, requiring us to actually put pen to paper and tongue to stamp. > We can lobby our representatives in Congress, but it'll do little > good. If we want results, all we have to do is make sure that the > big corporations know what Hollings' foolish bill will do... and > Poof! it'll vanish in committee. What exactly will "Hollings' foolish bill" do that will scare the "big corporations?" Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 22:41:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F6837B405 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03262; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:41:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009233632.04baa900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 23:41:01 -0600 To: "Jasper O'Malley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:32 PM 10/9/2001, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Congress treats copyright law the same way it treats any other law: >> the most powerful, richest interests and the biggest campaign >> contributors win. And you can bet that heavy hitters such as Microsoft, >> AOL, HP, Compaq, Dell, Sun, EDS, and IBM -- to name just a few -- will >> oppose it. They don't want anything legislated into their products. > >Are you kidding me? They're *writing* the "digital rights management" >software and *building* the "digital rights management" hardware, and >they're forming alliances to do it. They've been grudging members of the groups that did it, but their engineers don't like it and neither do their marketing people (who think it might cause consumers to avoid their products.) Intel recently backed away from serializing its Pentium chips, for example. If there's ANY consumer pressure, they'll cave completely. >You and I wish. IBM simply withdrew the proposal to include it in the >latest revision of the ATA standard. Look for it to make a speedy comeback >if SSSCA is passed. Ah, but again, SSSCA won't pass. Legislating the design of software opens the door for Congress to put constraints on the design of Windows.... Do you think for one minute that Microsoft, with its lobbying megabucks, would risk that just to satisfy a record company or two? >What exactly will "Hollings' foolish bill" do that will scare the "big >corporations?" See above. Also, large corporations that USE software know how much pain copy protection would cost them. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 23:14:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195F037B401 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.138.251.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.251]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21628; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9A6Dm901967; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:13:43 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:40:00PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [OK, way off of -questions. Redirected to -chat.] On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:40:00PM +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > There's currently a huge argument over software patents, ie: patentable > > algorithims. > > > > > > > > > > I seem to undertstand that the law applying to software is different in > Europe, ie copyright-oriented (Europe) rather than patent-oriented (USA). > > The patent question perplexes me, probably because I have a very limited > understanding/knowledge of its issues and niceties. The copyright question has always perplexed me. A computer program is a set of instructions to make a machine do something. Copyrights have historically meant to protect artistic works, literature, and the like. I can write a program to do something really l33t and copyright it. Only I can authorize distributions of copies of that software. Someone else can write a program to do the same thing and they can distribute it however they want. It's not a copy of my code, which is protected, but it does the same thing. Functionality is not protected by copyrights. I can spend a big wad of cash to come up with this nifty new idea and develop it, but someone else can come along and write a program to do the same thing and there is nothing I can do. What incentive do I have to spend the cash when Microsoft will make a clone of my neat app and make it a part of their operating system next month? None. Inovation stops. To use another anology. I build a big mechanical box with lots of wheels, wires, motors, and vacuum tubes. I takes punch cards in one end and spits out some interesting output at the other end. I patent the process. That's what patents are for, no one will argue I cannot or should not. Now instead of building a big custom box to do this process, I write a set of instructions that make some other generic piece of machinery (a com-pu-ter) do this same kind of thing. Why can I not patent the process? > > > For one moment, suppose that the principle of algorithm patentability came > true to the fullest extent. [the choice of "come true" is NOT coincidental > ;-)] > > The next day, I would wake up and patent the algorithm solving 2nd degree > algebraic equations. You could try, but you couldn't patent the methods to do this that you find in every basic algebra book. Prior art. You only can patent something new that you discover. > I chose a trivial example just for the sake of simplicity. You could > substitute algorithms/theorems on [differential or algebraic] equations; > numerical analysis/calculus algorithms (eg Runge-Kutta methods); etc. etc. > etc. By the way, the discussion is not purely theoretical: think eg of CRC > polynomials... All of these algorithms already exist. You have no claim to patent them. OTOH, if you devised a _new_ method to do some interesting math, yes, you can patent. (Not to say that some people haven't pulled some things off with the Patent Office. One of the jokes about a former employer of mine was that the company had a patent on least-squares regression. It really did.) > Next, I would write a program in BEEEE_sick solving 2nd degree algebraic > equations. A month later, you would chance to write another such program, > without any prior knowledge of my patent(s) or even my program(s). > > Finally, I would sue you for two patent infringements: the algorithm and the > program. Rich lawsuits. :-)) Probably not. If I had acted in good faith (you admit I didn't know anything), you probably wouldn't receive much of anything in a civil court other than an assurance I would stop. I don't have any money anyway. > Alternatively, you would have to pay [$$$]$$$ each and every time you made use > of the aforementioned algorithm. Hmm, that would sound like quick and steady > progress for the whole field of studies and/or applications. :-) Yep. People, corporations, and educational institutions spend mindboggling amounts of effort and money trying to discover new medicines, devices, technologies, numerical methods, etc. which they can patent. > I may be missing something, er, quite a lot of things, but such scenarios make > little to no sense (to me) -- however > subtle/clever/precise/interesting/rigorous/etc may be, computationally > speaking, the chosen definition of algorithm complexity and/or ahem > "originality". > > Incidentally -- it's just my impression, mind you -- I would say this kind of > law, in the long run, might be very harmful to software industry itself. It's not patents or copyrights that are a hazard, but the shrink-wrap license agreements. If useful algorthims were properly _patented,_ then software distribitors might not try to tag on anti-reverse-engineering clauses and other bogus legalese in their license agreements. They can even hand out source code without fear. Even if other people can see the algorithms used in the software in front of their noses, they cannot steal the distributors investment since making work-alike (as opposed to not bit-image, copyright-violating) copies would still violate the _patent._ I'm not saying that all software should be patented. But a lot of the shrink-wrap license hell that we are in is because applying copyrights to programs isn't a correct fit. Programs are instructions to make a machine do something. They in effect make a generic piece of hardware behave like some specialized piece of pseudo-hardware. You patent devices and processes. If you want to protect what a program _does_ you should patent the process, the algorithm. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu cjclark@jhu.edu cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 9 23:45:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx0.gmx.net (mx0.gmx.net [213.165.64.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9B5C37B403 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31560 invoked by uid 0); 10 Oct 2001 06:45:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:45:40 +0200 (MEST) From: Peter Cornelius To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="========GMXBoundary89911002696340" Subject: Re: Walnut BDSDI Windriver Subs now gone? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Authenticated-Sender: #0000491680@gmx.net X-Authenticated-IP: [194.121.105.211] Message-ID: <8991.1002696340@www27.gmx.net> X-Mailer: WWW-Mail 1.5 (Global Message Exchange) X-Flags: 0001 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a MIME encapsulated multipart message - please use a MIME-compliant e-mail program to open it. Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format - bitte verwenden Sie zum Lesen ein MIME-konformes Mailprogramm. --========GMXBoundary89911002696340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is FreeBSE something you get when you buy a kilogram of beef in the UK? Possibly. If you win. Or if you stay with Wind River for too long? Cheers, Peter. -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net --========GMXBoundary89911002696340 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7w0K4Wry0BWjoQKURAtkGAJsFCA8cK8lEEAdQkkH/Yjm63new1QCfapUW 3+Fy+dWDG/Vjy7wXp80C0xU= =w7lG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --========GMXBoundary89911002696340 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" " Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" " --========GMXBoundary89911002696340-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 0:14: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75F637B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-28-213.txucom.net [209.34.28.213]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f99EtJq41602; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:55:22 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> In-Reply-To: <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday 09 October 2001 08:09, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > tms2@mail.ptd.net ("T.M. Sommers") writes: > > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > j mckitrick writes: > > > > I finally took several people's advice. I didn't give up VI, but > > > > emacs is amazing for big, complicated jobs. > > > > > > I've been using only Emacs (actually mostly XEmacs and some small Emacs > > > clones like Jed) for a long time, but recently decided it would be > > > better to try to force myself to use vi for editing as root. (I > > > learned it 20 years ago and liked the two-mode concept, but I've > > > forgotten all but the very basics.) > > > > > > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to > > > suspect that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes > > > and am thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. > > > > > > Is that overly paranoid? Do other people have this concern? Do many > > > people run XEmacs or Emacs as root on a regular basis? Does vim have a > > > lot of similarly suspectable code in it too? > > > > If memory serves, the Great Worm of '88 exploited a security hole in > > Emacs (among other things). > > No. rsh, sendmail, and finger daemons. No user applications. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Hi, There was at one time a hole in emacs that would let you write system files. This was about 8 or 9 years ago I belive. GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 1:19:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848F237B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.241.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.241]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06939; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:19:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > I pos facto. > > > > (Translation: you can't make something illegal after the fact). > > Actually, I think "I pos facto" translates to "Terry doesn't know > latin". Ugh. "Ex pos facto". "I pos facto" would be "before the fact". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 1:25:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6638E37B409 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9A8PiN80478 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA58476 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:25:44 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010102544.B57921@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Jasper O'Malley , NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:45:26PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Oct 9, 2001 at 22:45:26: > > Congress treats copyright law the same way it treats any other law: > the most powerful, richest interests and the biggest campaign > contributors win. And you can bet that heavy hitters such as Microsoft, > AOL, HP, Compaq, Dell, Sun, EDS, and IBM -- to name just a few -- will > oppose it. Why would they? It brings them more money, and that's all they care about. They'll never do it if other manufacturers can produce unencumbered alternatives, but they'll definitely support banning the alternatives. *Only* free software (and ordinary users, who don't have a voice in these things) would suffer from it. And IBM, despite its linux noise, has been supporting the W3C's RAND patent ideas, and was the original mover behind CPRM too; don't trust them as the flagbearers of freedom and openness. As for Microsoft, AOL, Sun, etc, the less said the better.... > >Ever hear of CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media) > > Dead in the water. No it's not. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/22087.html - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 1:46:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F06B37B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15084; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:46:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Oct 2001 10:46:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > I pos facto. > > Actually, I think "I pos facto" translates to "Terry doesn't know > > latin". > Ugh. "Ex pos facto". "I pos facto" would be "before the fact". Nope. Still no cigar, even though I included the correct expression in the message you replied to. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 1:53:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB1337B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 01:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9A8rMN86036 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:53:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA59699 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:53:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:53:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010105322.D57921@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , tlambert2@mindspring.com, Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:46:33AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Oct 10, 2001 at 10:46:33: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > > I pos facto. > > > Actually, I think "I pos facto" translates to "Terry doesn't know > > > latin". > > Ugh. "Ex pos facto". "I pos facto" would be "before the fact". > > Nope. Still no cigar, even though I included the correct expression > in the message you replied to. Maybe it's a confusion with another common phrase, "ipso facto" (by the fact) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 2:14: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D008C37B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.241.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.241]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28120; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:12:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > I pos facto. > > > Actually, I think "I pos facto" translates to "Terry doesn't know > > > latin". > > Ugh. "Ex pos facto". "I pos facto" would be "before the fact". > > Nope. Still no cigar, even though I included the correct expression > in the message you replied to. I think that you lose something in the translation from Latin to German to English. In colloquial usage for legal purposes, "Ex pos facto" refers to a law enacted after the fact not being applicable to an act which was not a crime before the law was enacted, and which occurred before it was enacted. A literal translation from my Latin dictionary is: ex = (prep. + abl.) out of, from within, from / on account of post = (+ acc.) after, behind factum = deed, accomplishment, work, act, achievement == on account of after accomplishment -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 2:33:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6A237B407 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9A9XjN91595 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:33:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA61759 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:33:41 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010113341.G57921@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:12:04AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 10, 2001 at 02:12:04: > I think that you lose something in the translation from Latin > to German to English. In colloquial usage for legal purposes, > "Ex pos facto" refers to a law enacted after the fact not being No. (And where does German come into this?) > applicable to an act which was not a crime before the law was > enacted, and which occurred before it was enacted. > > A literal translation from my Latin dictionary is: > > ex = (prep. + abl.) out of, from within, from / on account of > post = (+ acc.) after, behind ^^^^ Exactly. You left out the t. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 6:13:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.184.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEFE37B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f9ADCuI20380; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:12:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lowell) To: GB Clark II Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 10 Oct 2001 09:12:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: GB Clark II's message of "Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:55:22 -0500" Message-ID: <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org GB Clark II writes: > There was at one time a hole in emacs that would let you write system files. > This was about 8 or 9 years ago I belive. Impossible. emacs runs with user privileges, so no hole in it could have any effect like this. The original concern, about whether emacs could have malicious code shipped with it, is more realistic. I think it's not worth worrying about, because there really are more eyes on the code, on a more regular basis, than the original poster realized. - Lowell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 6:23:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 99AB537B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 381 invoked by uid 100); 10 Oct 2001 13:23:49 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15300.19429.657270.729870@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:23:49 -0500 To: Lowell Gilbert Cc: GB Clark II , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability In-Reply-To: <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lowell Gilbert types: > GB Clark II writes: > > There was at one time a hole in emacs that would let you write system files. > > This was about 8 or 9 years ago I belive. > Impossible. emacs runs with user privileges, so no hole in it could > have any effect like this. Gnu emacs comes with a command called "movemail" that moves a users mailbox before sicking rmail on it. It ran with elevated privileges. The hole referred to was actually in movemail; it could be coerced doing arbitrary copies. I fixed this at Berkely, which I left over 11 years ago. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 6:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9E637B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15rJVr-000CbP-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:35:07 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15rJW4-000HlC-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:35:20 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:35:20 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Lowell Gilbert Cc: GB Clark II , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Code 'auditing' (was Re: code density vs readability) Message-ID: <20011010143520.A68224@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net>; from lowell@be-well.ilk.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:12:56AM -0400 X-Scanner: exiscan *15rJVr-000CbP-00*$AK$lHkm1Wtm9o38pcXD.nmBc0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 10, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > There was at one time a hole in emacs that would let you write system files. > > This was about 8 or 9 years ago I belive. > > Impossible. emacs runs with user privileges, so no hole in it could > have any effect like this. It's improbable, not impossible. Nothing is impossible when it comes to security. Just very unlikely. As for emacs running with user privileges, well... we were originally talking about running emacs as root. Go figure. > The original concern, about whether emacs could have malicious code > shipped with it, is more realistic. I think it's not worth worrying > about, because there really are more eyes on the code, on a more > regular basis, than the original poster realized. Ahhh - the 'more eyes are a good thing argument' - one of my favourite arguments about security of open source code. You see, the problem is, it's not actually relevant. The majority of people out there are, quite simply, not very good at writing code. Most of us are actually pretty terrible at maintaining other people's code. The chances of you finding a hole in somebody else's code is, well, quite slim really. I can look at code, and I can see something that *might* be a problem. I can then spend hours and hours tracing it back to find where some user-defined data could actually tickle that problem in such a way as to make it something worth reporting. However, I rarely do this with other's code, and I bet not many others do it either. It's like the argument that PGP must be secure because it's open source and anybody could see any backdoors in there. Firstly, hands up everybody here who really understands crypto that well to know whether a mathematical algorithm has been implemnted in such a way that there are no flaws. Secondly, how many of you have read the source code in it's entirety to the version of PGP you are running and checked that there are no backdoors? So, finally, we're left with the rest of you who don't know crypto that well, and/or who haven't checked the PGP source for backdoors. To you (the majority of you I suspect), I ask - how do you know the PGP development team aren't lying to you? Did you go to school with them so you trust them? It's not just PGP either - every piece of software you run, you assume to be security hole free because with your argument 'there are enough eyes looking at it for me' - not a very security concious stance. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 7:37:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D702137B616 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16323; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:36:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Oct 2001 16:36:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 56 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > I think that you lose something in the translation from Latin > to German to English. There is no German involved here. My primary language is French, but I speak English well enough to have passed for a native in both the UK and the US. > In colloquial usage for legal purposes, I would hardly refer to a term that is actually used (twice) in the US constitution as "colloquial". Article I, Section 9, third alinea: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Article I, Section 10, first alinea: "No State shall [pass any] ex post facto Law" > "Ex pos facto" refers to a law enacted after the fact not being Once again, neither "i pos facto" nor "ex pos facto" have any meaning. The expression you are thinking of is "ex post facto". > applicable to an act which was not a crime before the law was > enacted, and which occurred before it was enacted. > > A literal translation from my Latin dictionary is: > > ex = (prep. + abl.) out of, from within, from / on account of > post = (+ acc.) after, behind > factum = deed, accomplishment, work, act, achievement > > == on account of after accomplishment No, in this sense it's "fact", not "accomplishment". The most direct English translation of "factum" is probably "deed", as "factum" means literally "something that has been done". The English word "fact" itself is a bastardization of either "factum" or the French equivalent "fait" (which itself is derived from the same root as "factum") but is most commonly used to mean "datum" or "truth". Although "ex post facto" is the accepted spelling today, it is actually a bastardization of "ex postfacto", where "postfacto" is the ablative of "postfactum", a composite word (from "post" and "factum", obviously) meaning "something that is done later". "I pos facto", on the other hand, doesn't mean anything at all. It probably stems from your confusing "ex post facto" with "ipso facto" ("consequently" or "in and of itself") which is probably a contraction of "ex ipso facto" meaning "due to this very fact" or "due to the fact itself". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 7:58:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0814337B408 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2345 invoked by uid 100); 10 Oct 2001 14:51:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15300.24690.349262.482484@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:51:30 -0500 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Lowell Gilbert , GB Clark II , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Code 'auditing' (was Re: code density vs readability) In-Reply-To: <20011010143520.A68224@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <20011010143520.A68224@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson types: > On Oct 10, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > The original concern, about whether emacs could have malicious code > > shipped with it, is more realistic. I think it's not worth worrying > > about, because there really are more eyes on the code, on a more > > regular basis, than the original poster realized. > Ahhh - the 'more eyes are a good thing argument' - one of my favourite > arguments about security of open source code. You see, the problem is, it's > not actually relevant. Depends on what level you're talking about. You're right that it won't prevent security bugs. On the other hand, it has already closed back doors. > It's like the argument that PGP must be secure because it's open source and > anybody could see any backdoors in there. Firstly, hands up everybody here > who really understands crypto that well to know whether a mathematical > algorithm has been implemnted in such a way that there are no flaws. Ok, my hand is up. The question you're asking isn't really a crypto question, though. I can't analyze an algorithm for cryptographic flaws - which is where the crypto knowledge comes in. Given an algorithm, I can verify that it's implemented correctly. I do know crypto well enough to find the algorithms I need to check. > Secondly, how many of you have read the source code in it's entirety to the > version of PGP you are running and checked that there are no backdoors? My hand is still up. > It's not just PGP either - every piece of software you run, you assume to be > security hole free because with your argument 'there are enough eyes looking > at it for me' - not a very security concious stance. No, I don't assume that. Anybody who does is foolish. Your argument about programmer quality is a good one. The claim isn't that many eyes leads to no, or even few, bugs. The claim is that many eyes lead to shallow bugs. On the other hand, people have planted backdoors in open source software, and have been caught doing it. If it had been commercial software, they probably wouldn't have been caught, as finding backdoors is much harder if you have to publish the source. That's what's really relevant - are you going to install a backdoor and then risk it being found by someone casually perusing the source? If there are no people casually perusing the source, that's not an issue. Of course, if part of what you're publishing is the build tool chain, it's possible to provide a backdoor that only appears in the binaries. Inserting it into a system distributed like FreeBSD would be an interesting problem, though. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 8: 2:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 91DE137B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2113 invoked by uid 100); 10 Oct 2001 14:36:08 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15300.23768.69743.202319@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:36:08 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , NGH , In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009233632.04baa900@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011009233632.04baa900@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:32 PM 10/9/2001, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > >You and I wish. IBM simply withdrew the proposal to include it in the > >latest revision of the ATA standard. Look for it to make a speedy comeback > >if SSSCA is passed. > Ah, but again, SSSCA won't pass. Legislating the design of software opens > the door for Congress to put constraints on the design of Windows.... Do > you think for one minute that Microsoft, with its lobbying megabucks, > would risk that just to satisfy a record company or two? While MicroSoft may have lobbying megabucks, so do the people pushing the bill - and they've been playing the game longer. The available evidence is that MS doesn't *care* what this will do to them. They already license lots of software, and ship systems that include software with software that has licensing requirements that encroach on the design of software. The software vendors who'll really be hurt are the *small* ones, to whom the licensing fees won't be trivial. It will probably be most painfull for free software that it covers. In which case, MS is probably all for it. > >What exactly will "Hollings' foolish bill" do that will scare the "big > >corporations?" > See above. Also, large corporations that USE software know how much pain > copy protection would cost them. But the SSSCA doesn't *require* copy protection. It just requires support for it. For content, anyone large corporation that uses it tries to avoid stepping on the toes of other large corporations, so it wont make much difference there. For software - MS is already working as hard as they can to copy protect their software. A law that requires hardware manufacturers to provide the hooks they need? They should eat it up. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9: 2:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.184.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FDD37B40B for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f9AG28I20650; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:02:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lowell) From: Lowell Gilbert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Code 'auditing' (was Re: code density vs readability) References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <20011010143520.A68224@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Date: 10 Oct 2001 12:02:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: Paul Robinson's message of "Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:35:20 +0100" Message-ID: <44adyzeb5r.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Lines: 50 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson writes: > On Oct 10, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > > > There was at one time a hole in emacs that would let you write system files. > > > This was about 8 or 9 years ago I belive. > > > > Impossible. emacs runs with user privileges, so no hole in it could > > have any effect like this. > > It's improbable, not impossible. Nothing is impossible when it comes to > security. Just very unlikely. As for emacs running with user privileges, > well... we were originally talking about running emacs as root. Go figure. It may not be impossible that you could have a security problem where emacs would let you write files you shouldn't be able to, but that would be a security hole in the operating system, not in emacs. And, yes, we *were* originally talking about running emacs as root, and I addressed that point separately, but in my personal opinion, it is not a bug for emacs to allow the editing of system files if the user running emacs is, in fact, root. Call me funny that way. > > The original concern, about whether emacs could have malicious code > > shipped with it, is more realistic. I think it's not worth worrying > > about, because there really are more eyes on the code, on a more > > regular basis, than the original poster realized. > > Ahhh - the 'more eyes are a good thing argument' - one of my favourite > arguments about security of open source code. You see, the problem is, it's > not actually relevant. I had specific pairs of eyes in mind. Some of them could be considered to be conducting formal audits. I do, however, agree with your point that sheer numbers of eyes are not especially helpful. The original poster made a related, but slightly different point, which is that the number of people who *really* tried to look at some pieces of the emacs code may be quite small anyway. > It's not just PGP either - every piece of software you run, you assume to be > security hole free because with your argument 'there are enough eyes looking > at it for me' - not a very security concious stance. Source to which I have access is better than source I don't, for a variety of reasons, of which "number of eyes" is a real, but not very important one. All other aspects that contribute to security are orthogonal to whether the source is open or not, and my best evidence is that much open software today actually does fairly well on such things. - Lowell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9: 8:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11907.mail.yahoo.com (web11907.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0853537B408 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20011010160854.33276.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.33.193.159] by web11907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:08:54 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:08:54 -0700 (PDT) From: NGH Subject: Re: SSSCA? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20011010102544.B57921@lpt.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I agree with the folks who say that big companies are all for this legislation. It's very convenient for the already-established business because it would effectively end competition from anybody who cannot afford the licensing fees and certification that will most likely be necessary. These fees, etc. are effectively a tax on electronics and software! The existing "tweaks" to copyright, along with SSSCA and existing laws, are a serious abuse of the system. I don't doubt for one moment that Congress will pass this defective thing. At the very least, we should mail letters to editors of any electronics, software and manufacturing magazine and explaining why this is bad. It might be helpful to send letters to companies or individuals you know that would be hurt by SSSCA. Finally, sending mail to the companies pushing this defect, telling them what an outrage this is, would have a small effect but couldn't hurt. If this passes, we, the individuals and small businesses, will suffer extraordinary consequences while greedy corporations continue to squeeze every penny they can. Although old devices and software will be legal, it's only a matter of time until that old hardware breaks down or the software becomes obsolete. It will be very expensive to fight this once it passes, and would require lawyers and probably millions upon millions of dollars. Civil disobedience would be the only way--that is, reverse-engineering (and spreading of that information) and/or modifying the hardware, but they have that covered: SSSCA will make it a felony to "traffic in" or sell any device without the builtin "policeware" as some have called it, and existing laws make circumvention devices very illegal as well. I think I'll write some letters and post them here for review before mailing anything. -Nathan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:12:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C5637B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4739DBCF7 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04320 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:12:49 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9AGCR043378; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <9ptk3o$14kg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44d73xt0y9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <0110090955220A.07185@prime.vsservices.com> <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Oct 2001 09:12:26 -0700 In-Reply-To: <448zejljtz.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lowell Gilbert writes: > The original concern, about whether emacs could have malicious code > shipped with it, is more realistic. I think it's not worth worrying > about, because there really are more eyes on the code, on a more > regular basis, than the original poster realized. Erroneous code was more on my mind than malicious code. I'm willing to assume that the development project's code-tracking software discourages malicious code to a tolerable risk level. After all, I use the FreeBSD ports and package system. And I tolerate even the risk of erroneous code in that root-run software for practical reasons with more incentive than just the convenience of using XEmacs (vs. vi) on root-privileged files. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:17: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0965237B407 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09409; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:16:05 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011010102544.B57921@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011009185100.0581ac60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011009224124.0447c830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:25 AM 10/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >*Only* free software (and ordinary users, who don't >have a voice in these things) would suffer from it. Not so. Do you have any idea how many products IBM has? What about the approximately one zillion products that contain embedded systems? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:25:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D9D37B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09569; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101638.053bdbf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:24:19 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:12 AM 10/10/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think that you lose something in the translation from Latin >to German to English. In colloquial usage for legal purposes, >"Ex pos facto" Er, Terry: That's "ex post facto." See http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ex+post+facto&db=* --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:35:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E4F37B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09737; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:35:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010102907.053cfde0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:35:24 -0600 To: NGH , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011010160854.33276.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011010102544.B57921@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:08 AM 10/10/2001, NGH wrote: >I agree with the folks who say that big companies are all for >this legislation. It's very convenient for the >already-established business because it would effectively end >competition from anybody who cannot afford the licensing fees >and certification that will most likely be necessary. Actually, it is very inconvenient. EVERY SINGLE PRODUCT -- including cash cows and ones for which all of the original engineering documents are not available or whose developers have left -- would have to be revamped at immense expense. Take, for example, the InterJet product line that IBM bought from Whistle. Do you think that would be easy to retrofit with copy protection? Do you think IBM wants to spend millions re-engineering it? Do you think that HP wants to re-engineer every one of its printers? That TV manufacturers want to add expensive software to every set? That automobile manufacturers want to add expensive hardware to cars? Let's get real here. Remember, the bill is so broad that it would apply to anything with a microprocessor -- including electronic bathroom scales, pocket calculators, and microwave ovens. This would not only cause massive problems for manufacturers but also for users. And there are many more big companies that USE software than there are that make it. So, even if the large hardware and software companies were in favor of the law, the bulk of the money is on the other side. All that's necessary is to let these interests know about this idiotic law, and even the sponsors won't dare to push it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:37:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F9037B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B0251756F; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA771D8F; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :At 02:25 AM 10/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: : :>*Only* free software (and ordinary users, who don't :>have a voice in these things) would suffer from it. : :Not so. Do you have any idea how many products IBM has? :What about the approximately one zillion products that :contain embedded systems? Got to side with Brett on this. I seriously doubt Chrysler, Ford, GM, or any other car manufacturer is about to start paying fees and royalties for shipping electronic ignition systems, traction control systems, antilock braking systems, etc, which are all covered under this abomination as written. And this is just one industry. Do you think Sunbeam is going to allow itself to be taxed because it ships coffee makers with digital clocks? I don't think so. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:40:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086A737B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9AGdKZ22470; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:39:20 +0200 (CEST) To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, "Crist J. Clark" Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:39:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> In-Reply-To: <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.171.174 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > [OK, way off of -questions. Redirected to -chat.] First of all, I wish to thank you for your detailed response, which I have appreciated very much. > > I seem to undertstand that the law applying to software is different > in > > Europe, ie copyright-oriented (Europe) rather than patent-oriented > (USA). > > > > The patent question perplexes me, probably because I have a very > limited > > understanding/knowledge of its issues and niceties. > > The copyright question has always perplexed me. A computer program is > a set of instructions to make a machine do something. Copyrights have > historically meant to protect artistic works, literature, and the > like. > > I can write a program to do something really l33t and copyright > it. Only I can authorize distributions of copies of that > software. Someone else can write a program to do the same thing and > they can distribute it however they want. It's not a copy of my code, > which is protected, but it does the same thing. Functionality is not > protected by copyrights. I can spend a big wad of cash to come up with > this nifty new idea and develop it, but someone else can come along > and write a program to do the same thing and there is nothing I can > do. What incentive do I have to spend the cash when Microsoft will > make a clone of my neat app and make it a part of their operating > system next month? None. Inovation stops. About the specific point of M$ != innovation, I agree completely. See below. > To use another anology. I build a big mechanical box with lots of > wheels, wires, motors, and vacuum tubes. I takes punch cards in one > end and spits out some interesting output at the other end. I patent > the process. That's what patents are for, no one will argue I cannot > or should not. Now instead of building a big custom box to do this > process, I write a set of instructions that make some other generic > piece of machinery (a com-pu-ter) do this same kind of thing. Why can > I not patent the process? > > > > > > > For one moment, suppose that the principle of algorithm patentability > came > > true to the fullest extent. [the choice of "come true" is NOT > coincidental > > ;-)] > > > > The next day, I would wake up and patent the algorithm solving 2nd > degree > > algebraic equations. > > You could try, but you couldn't patent the methods to do this that you > find in every basic algebra book. Prior art. You only can patent > something new that you discover. Mutatis mutandis, I would wake up and patent a new informatics theorem/algorithm -- the quickest/shortest/the_best_compromise for some sense of the word best and of the word compromise. :-) Sorry for not being clear enough. The things mentioned above were new when they were discovered. What if people had "patented" the [more or less trivial] algorithms mentioned the very same day they were created? :-) Or, to shift the origin of the time axis, what if people patented each and every new mathematical/informatics/routing/whatever theorem and/or algorithm? Should/would you have to pay each and every time a theoretical paper/book of yours made [auxiliary] use of a patented theorem/algorithm? And/or each and every time a program of yours made use of the patented algorithm(s)? How long [reasonably] for? What impact would this have on the development of _new_ works and/or [better] programs in the field (or even in other fields)? Incidentally, AFAIK, the development of Mathematics, Logic, Informatics, Science at large has occurred fast and furious without patents for the last few centuries[1]. Freedom of development has been (and is) of primal importance. It is for **this** reason that you are in a position to develop your new nifty ideas _today_. [1] Informatics is more recent. :-) Curiously, there's no Nobel prize for Mathematics. Yet there would be **no** **science** **whatsoever** without mathematics... As to the "originality" and status of software, let's go for a walk the other way round. Suppose I wrote a program that solved problem X, a program making use of my theorem(s) and/or algorithm(s) T/A1 [, T/A2,... T/An]. Suppose you were interested in the same field and in writing another program solving the same problem. Apart from the obligation to quote my work(s), what could/should you be allowed to do? Nothing at all? And from the point of view of patents, how should an "original" algorithm be defined? Interesting problems. Mind you, neither the copyright nor the patent system is perfect. I tend to see things in a more "scientific" perspective (theorems = knowledge), which is why I wrote the first message in the first place. Theorem/algorithm T/Ai (the ith theorem and the associated algorithm, if any) is a scientific achievement, for i=1,2,...,N. As such, these theorems must figure in the appropriate book(s). They constitute knowledge and as such they must be shared. Not sharing knowledge is a dangerous form of obscurantism. And YES, it should be a national[2] interest to finance researchers rather then make them attempt to *patent* *knowledge*... [2] both public and private. As to my software program, it is _one_ way (out of _many_ possible ones) to make use of those results. I can't see one reason why you, Crist, shoudn't be allowed to write another program utilizing _my _own_ theorems. You could even write a better implementation of my own ideas. :-) In other words, the "implementation" is personal and is, as it were, a form of art. It must be protected as such. Whence the copyright. By the way, there can be many _different_ ways to provide the same functionality. I consider it excessive and wrong to patent the _functionality_. One incidental remark about M$. This kind of extremely large corporations as well as the well-known associated practices are most harmful to any progress. They just shouldn't be allowed to exist. > > I chose a trivial example just for the sake of simplicity. You could > > > substitute algorithms/theorems on [differential or algebraic] > equations; > > numerical analysis/calculus algorithms (eg Runge-Kutta methods); etc. > etc. > > etc. By the way, the discussion is not purely theoretical: think eg > of CRC > > polynomials... > > All of these algorithms already exist. You have no claim to patent > them. OTOH, if you devised a _new_ method to do some interesting math, > yes, you can patent. It is about this point that I disagree. In general, IMO Science should be patent-free. > (Not to say that some people haven't pulled some things off with the > Patent Office. One of the jokes about a former employer of mine was > that the company had a patent on least-squares regression. It really > did.) Urk. > > > Next, I would write a program in BEEEE_sick solving 2nd degree > algebraic > > equations. A month later, you would chance to write another such > program, > > without any prior knowledge of my patent(s) or even my program(s). > > > > Finally, I would sue you for two patent infringements: the algorithm > and the > > program. Rich lawsuits. :-)) > > Probably not. If I had acted in good faith (you admit I didn't know > anything), you probably wouldn't receive much of anything in a civil > court other than an assurance I would stop. I don't have any money > anyway. > > > Alternatively, you would have to pay [$$$]$$$ each and every time you > made use > > of the aforementioned algorithm. Hmm, that would sound like quick and > steady > > progress for the whole field of studies and/or applications. :-) > > Yep. People, corporations, and educational institutions spend > mindboggling amounts of effort and money trying to discover new > medicines, devices, technologies, numerical methods, etc. which they > can patent. > If Numerical Analysis (Numerical Calculus/Methods in English?) were to become a collection of patents, how [fast] would people go ahead? Next, what would prevent all fields of Mathematics from becoming a set of patents? Would you imagine Functional Analysis (cf Quantum Mechanics) to be a collection of patents? You are most probably aware that Q.M. will have a number of consequences for C.S. and computers at large. > > I may be missing something, er, quite a lot of things, but such > scenarios make > > little to no sense (to me) -- however > > subtle/clever/precise/interesting/rigorous/etc may be, computationally > > > speaking, the chosen definition of algorithm complexity and/or ahem > > "originality". > > > > Incidentally -- it's just my impression, mind you -- I would say this > kind of > > law, in the long run, might be very harmful to software industry > itself. > > It's not patents or copyrights that are a hazard, but the shrink-wrap > license agreements. If useful algorthims were properly _patented,_ then > software distribitors might not try to tag on anti-reverse-engineering > clauses and other bogus legalese in their license agreements. They can > even hand out source code without fear. Even if other people can see > the algorithms used in the software in front of their noses, they > cannot steal the distributors investment since making work-alike > (as opposed to not bit-image, copyright-violating) copies would > still violate the _patent._ > > I'm not saying that all software should be patented. But a lot of the > shrink-wrap license hell that we are in is because applying copyrights > to programs isn't a correct fit. Programs are instructions to make a > machine do something. They in effect make a generic piece of hardware > behave like some specialized piece of pseudo-hardware. You patent > devices and processes. If you want to protect what a program _does_ > you should patent the process, the algorithm. There has to be a better form of protection, both of the programmer's work as a form of art and of the programmer's work as science (well, when it is the case :-)), a form of protection avoiding obscurantism. IMO, FWIW, patenting algorithms is a dangerous way. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:46: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA4D37B408 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9AGk0N45673 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:46:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA83048 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:46:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:46:00 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010184600.A82552@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Jamie Bowden , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:39:25AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden said on Oct 10, 2001 at 09:39:25: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > : > :>*Only* free software (and ordinary users, who don't > :>have a voice in these things) would suffer from it. > : > :Not so. Do you have any idea how many products IBM has? > :What about the approximately one zillion products that > :contain embedded systems? > > Got to side with Brett on this. I seriously doubt Chrysler, Ford, GM, or > any other car manufacturer is about to start paying fees and royalties for > shipping electronic ignition systems, traction control systems, antilock > braking systems, etc, which are all covered under this abomination as > written. Well yes I guess that's true. But what's to stop them watering it down so that only computers and operating systems need comply, with some suitable definition of "computer" and "operating system"? The way I see it, this could even be a ploy: they introduce this hugely broad bill which covers everything that has a microprocessor, there's an outcry, then they say "ok, how about just computers then", and the big boys agree and they're all happy. It won't cost IBM / Microsoft much to patch their OS's; IBM can even continue shipping linux pre-loaded if it wants to. I don't see why they won't agree: the same big boys have been backing CPRM and the DMCA itself. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:49:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB4937B406 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09966; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:49:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:49:02 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Jamie Bowden From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011010184600.A82552@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:46 AM 10/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Well yes I guess that's true. But what's to stop them watering it >down so that only computers and operating systems need comply, with >some suitable definition of "computer" and "operating system"? Because it would miss many of the RIAA's targets. Remember, they want to outlaw portable MP3 players such as the Rio, as well as CD copiers such as the Philips model that lets you create "mix" CDs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 9:52:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84AB37B40A for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9AGqON46445 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:52:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA83381 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:52:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:52:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010185224.A83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> <20011010184600.A82552@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:49:02AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Oct 10, 2001 at 10:49:02: > At 10:46 AM 10/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >Well yes I guess that's true. But what's to stop them watering it > >down so that only computers and operating systems need comply, with > >some suitable definition of "computer" and "operating system"? > > Because it would miss many of the RIAA's targets. Remember, they want > to outlaw portable MP3 players such as the Rio, as well as CD copiers > such as the Philips model that lets you create "mix" CDs. That's what they say. The only thing they're really after is music swapping over the internet. As of now, you need a computer to do that; perhaps they'll say "internet-enabled device" or something like that instead of "computer" in their watered-down SSSCA. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10: 4:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F77037B40B for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8304 invoked by uid 1114); 10 Oct 2001 17:04:37 -0000 Date: 10 Oct 2001 10:04:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:04:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ceren Ercen To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011010185224.A83192@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul said: > > Because it would miss many of the RIAA's targets. Remember, they want > > to outlaw portable MP3 players such as the Rio, as well as CD copiers > > such as the Philips model that lets you create "mix" CDs. > > That's what they say. The only thing they're really after is music > swapping over the internet. As of now, you need a computer to do > that; perhaps they'll say "internet-enabled device" or something > like that instead of "computer" in their watered-down SSSCA. No, they really are after devices like the Rio. Granted, they would *love* to kill music swapping from the PC level, but they probably are getting the idea that no matter how many laws are put in place, this will always be impossible for one reason or another. However, if you put a steel vise on any commercial products (which can be blocked legally), it's fairly effective, at least when dealing with 99% of the population. The RIAA expects to get money out of *everything*. You know that japanese dancing machine game, Dance Dance Revolution? Where there are arrows on the screen, and you stomp on the machine in accordance with them? Those things cost as much as a mid-range *car*, simply because of the insane licensing fees the RIAA imposes on every song played in that game, since they use some actual club music. Here, RIAA, here's my leash and choke chain. - Ceren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10: 8:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E1337B406 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10256; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010110117.04268f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:07:38 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011010185224.A83192@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> <20011010184600.A82552@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:52 AM 10/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >The only thing they're really after is music >swapping over the internet. Not true at all. The RIAA and MPAA are out to stop ALL copying, by any means, if they can. As well as time-shifting, to the extent that they can get away with it -- because any technology that lets you time-shift MUST make a copy. Finally, as much as possible, they would like to make all media "pay per view." The Internet is only one of a large, large number of leaks in the dike which they would like to plug. Fortunately, they probably do not have enough fingers. What annoys me especially is that, as a musician myself, I don't pirate music. But for these groups to try to hamstring my computer in the event that I might is insane. It's no less a hopeless jihaad than Osama bin Laden's dream of world domination by fundamentalist Islam. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10: 9:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D290A37B40E for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9AH9iN47960 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:09:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA84271 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:09:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:09:44 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ceren Ercen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010190944.B83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ceren Ercen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011010185224.A83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ceren@magnesium.net on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:04:37AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ceren Ercen said on Oct 10, 2001 at 10:04:37: > > > That's what they say. The only thing they're really after is music > > swapping over the internet. > No, they really are after devices like the Rio. Sorry, I should have said "the main thing they're after right now". That is, while they would love to make everyone pay for music used on mobile phone rings, doorbells, answering machines, whatever, I'm pretty sure they'd settle for a law which focussed on computers/internet -- especially if they thought it would be unrealistic to deal with everything else. Or maybe they'd want something about "devices which reproduce or perform copyright-protected content" which would exempt toasters and the like. (But for how long? Maybe we'll see copyright or patent protection for bread recipes in the near future. This unique mix of cereals, etc.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10:15:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E086B37B409 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9AHFUN48629 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:15:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA84540 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:15:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:15:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010191529.C83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> <20011010184600.A82552@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> <20011010185224.A83192@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010110117.04268f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010110117.04268f00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:07:38AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Oct 10, 2001 at 11:07:38: > > Not true at all. The RIAA and MPAA are out to stop ALL copying, by > any means, if they can. Actually, I know all that, I've frequently ranted about it myself, and I don't know why I wrote what I did. I just clarified it in another mail. > The Internet is only one of a large, large number of leaks in > the dike which they would like to plug. It's by far the largest and I still maintain it's what they're most worried about. I'm willing to admit they have reason about that. I don't admit that they're actually being hurt by it, however: if people can't download tracks by random unknown musicians from napster, they're not going to rush out and buy the CDs instead. They'll do that only if they like what they heard. Even if 5% of the new music they hear that way results in CD purchases, it's definitely a gain for the music industry, but they won't see it that way... Question about these taxes on things like CD writers, which are supposed to "compensate" for copyright violation: does that mean, having paid that tax, I'm now entitled to copy copyrighted material using it? If not, what the heck am I paying that tax for? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10:51:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DF837B407 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576763451; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:51:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Brett Glass Cc: , Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101638.053bdbf0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I prefer Archie Bunker's version: "ipso fatso." Eric On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Er, Terry: That's "ex post facto." See > > http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ex+post+facto&db=* > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10:55:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E099537B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.107.249.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.107.249]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26984; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC48B9F.F385BFC7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:55:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> <20011010113341.G57921@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > ex = (prep. + abl.) out of, from within, from / on account of > > post = (+ acc.) after, behind > ^^^^ > > Exactly. You left out the t. And you left out the definition of "factum", and the conjugation of it to "facto". Senectus? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 10:57:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5A237B407 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9AHvTN53214 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:57:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA86152 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:57:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:57:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010195728.E83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> <20011010113341.G57921@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC48B9F.F385BFC7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC48B9F.F385BFC7@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:55:43AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 10, 2001 at 10:55:43: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > ex = (prep. + abl.) out of, from within, from / on account of > > > post = (+ acc.) after, behind > > ^^^^ > > > > Exactly. You left out the t. > > And you left out the definition of "factum", and the > conjugation of it to "facto". Your point being? Do you claim that "post" is modified to "pos"? And in that case, since "post" means "after" or "behind", exactly why should "i pos facto" mean "before the fact"? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:13: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AEC37B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.107.249.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.107.249]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07166; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC48FCA.93D7FA27@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:13:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Ex pos facto" refers to a law enacted after the fact not being > > Once again, neither "i pos facto" nor "ex pos facto" have any meaning. > The expression you are thinking of is "ex post facto". I learned most of my Latin from Italian and Hispanic sources. If you check the net for references, you will see that the spelling "ex pos facto" -- without the "t" -- is commonly used. > "I pos facto", on the other hand, doesn't mean anything at all. It > probably stems from your confusing "ex post facto" with "ipso facto" > ("consequently" or "in and of itself") which is probably a contraction > of "ex ipso facto" meaning "due to this very fact" or "due to the fact > itself". I am not confusing "ipso facto"; I'm dyslexic, but I'm not _that_ bad. 8-). So how in Latin would _you_ say "before the fact"? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:17:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F9B37B407 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.107.249.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.107.249]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03533; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC490D9.4B0461D0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:18:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101638.053bdbf0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Er, Terry: That's "ex post facto." See Whatever; I don't need Catholic lessons from non-Catholics. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:17:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D7A37B407 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.107.249.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.107.249]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05456; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC49085.98ACA08F@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:16:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: NGH Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011010160854.33276.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NGH wrote: > > Hi, > > I agree with the folks who say that big companies are all for > this legislation. It's very convenient for the > already-established business because it would effectively end > competition from anybody who cannot afford the licensing fees > and certification that will most likely be necessary. > > These fees, etc. are effectively a tax on electronics and > software! The existing "tweaks" to copyright, along with SSSCA > and existing laws, are a serious abuse of the system. I don't > doubt for one moment that Congress will pass this defective > thing. Where's Alfred when you need him? "D-17" "Miss! B-8" "Damn! You sank my business model!" -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:22:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7693637B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E7C42756F; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E507B1D8F; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:24:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011010191529.C83192@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :It's by far the largest and I still maintain it's what they're most :worried about. I'm willing to admit they have reason about that. I :don't admit that they're actually being hurt by it, however: if people :can't download tracks by random unknown musicians from napster, :they're not going to rush out and buy the CDs instead. They'll do :that only if they like what they heard. Even if 5% of the new music :they hear that way results in CD purchases, it's definitely a gain for :the music industry, but they won't see it that way... Someone else made a very good point in another forum. Why did Napster get so big? It wasn't necessarily about people wanting free music. The music industry has killed the single. If I hear a song I like, the only way to get it is to buy the album it's a part of. Napster filled that gap. It allowed people to access the selected tracks they wanted to hear. The piracy existed because it was the only distribution channel available to people who didn't want to pay for an entire CD for just a select few tracks. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:27:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4665137B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9AIR5o24084; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:27:05 +0200 (CEST) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <1002738425.3bc492f9920c6@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:27:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.171.174 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It probably stems from your confusing "ex post facto" with "ipso facto" > ("consequently" or "in and of itself") which is probably a contraction > of "ex ipso facto" meaning "due to this very fact" or "due to the fact > itself". AFAIK/R, "ipso facto" means roughly "[up]on the fact itself", that is, either "immediately", "with no delay", or "for the fact itself", "consequently", "automatically". As to "postfactum", both forms are recorded in my Calonghi dictionary (Rosenberg & Sellier, 3rd ed.): postfactum, -i (normal form) and post factum. -- Salvo P.S. Infandum iubes Dag-Erling renovare dolorem... Olim Graece legi... pure et Latine locutus sum, reddidi et scripsi. :-))) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:28:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDCD37B409 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.107.249.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.107.249]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9AISRH09988; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC4937D.5FB32720@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:29:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <3BC410E4.ACF8074B@mindspring.com> <20011010113341.G57921@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC48B9F.F385BFC7@mindspring.com> <20011010195728.E83192@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Your point being? Do you claim that "post" is modified to "pos"? > And in that case, since "post" means "after" or "behind", exactly > why should "i pos facto" mean "before the fact"? "Behind". As I said elsewhere, colloquial legal usage doesn't really match a literal translation. Literal translations are useless for this, which is what I was trying to point out to DES. This is also true of lots of English words and phrases, when it comes to common usage. For example "That's a moot point" is a phrase often used to dismiss further argument, but in fact, it means that the point is subject to discussion. I remember a dicussion I had once, with someone over the compound word "cyberspace". They insisted that it applied to things like "MUD" and "IRC", etc.. I said "Let's ask that guy over there?"; they said "Why?", and I said "He's William Gibson, and he invented the word". "It's not cyberspace until you can torture someone to death there, and they die in the real world as a result". Didn't stop them misuing it, though... it was "cool" to apply it to what they were doing, since it lent an air of "cool" to their own "nerd-dom", and they wanted to appear "cool" ("31337" for you kiddies out there). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 11:41: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BBDB37B409 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8157 invoked by uid 100); 10 Oct 2001 18:40:56 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15300.38456.184889.825174@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:40:56 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? In-Reply-To: <20011010191529.C83192@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010104701.04264050@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> <20011010184600.A82552@lpt.ens.fr> <20011010185224.A83192@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010110117.04268f00@localhost> <20011010191529.C83192@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > Question about these taxes on things like CD writers, which are > supposed to "compensate" for copyright violation: does that mean, > having paid that tax, I'm now entitled to copy copyrighted material > using it? If not, what the heck am I paying that tax for? For the right to be able to buy those devices at all. The taxes that I know of are applied to the media - cassette tapes, CDs for audio cd copiers, and DAT. I'm not sure, but I think videotape isn't taxed because Sony won the betamax case. The content licensing industry has sufficient pull that they can prevent such things from hitting market unless they get compensation. If Brett's right and the auto manufacturers line up against this, it'll have a tough time passing. On the other hand, changing it so that it's limited to devices capable of storing or playing copyrightable content would probably miss them, as well as most people using embedded systems - but still make Eisner et. al. happy. And would be no less nasty to anyone working outside the mainstream. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 12: 9:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFFB37B409 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9AJ8QJ01159; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:08:26 +0200 (CEST) To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <1002740905.3bc49ca9b91c3@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:08:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.237.86 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Behind". AFAIK/R, In "postfactum, -i", post means **after** (time). -------------- factum ------------------ future --> ante (before) post (after) ^ --- (this answers another question of yours) Post: 1) adv. (space) ~ behind; (time) after. 2) prep. + acc. (space) behind; (time) after; (rank) behind, as in "nemo post te". In "ex postfacto", the current legal interpretation probably stems from: ------------------- [factum] -------- postfactum ------------ future --> < -------------------------------- ex post[ ]facto (~ retroactively) > For example "That's a moot point" is a phrase often used > to dismiss further argument, but in fact, it means that > the point is subject to discussion. I am not sure this is the case. Moot (< O.E. mot ~ assembly or meeting, cf meet) = 1) "subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision". 2) (US law) purely hypothtical point or question. I would gather that there may be little point in discussing... "a moot point" in the USA (which moot point is indeed a matter about which there is uncertainty), and so it is, er, dismissed. :-))) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 13:52:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF22937B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12870; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:52:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010144912.04b45d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:52:00 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SSSCA? Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3BC490D9.4B0461D0@mindspring.com> References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101638.053bdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 PM 10/10/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Whatever; I don't need Catholic lessons from non-Catholics. 8-). Actually, the best "Catholic lesson from a non-Catholic" is at http://www.geocities.com/psi_professor/vaticanrag.html --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 14: 1:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCAF37B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.244.105.118.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.105.118]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09320; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9AL1UH05222; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:01:26 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:39:20PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let me preface with IANAL. On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:39:20PM +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > "Crist J. Clark" wrote: [snip] > > The things mentioned above were new when they were discovered. What if people > had "patented" the [more or less trivial] algorithms mentioned the very same > day they were created? :-) > Solving second degree polynomials was not trivial when it was discovered. Patent protection is a rather recent invention realtive to mathematics. We tend to think of science being a field where everyone is just looking for a chance to share all of their thoughts with everyone else. That's the ideal. This is not how it always worked nor how it has ever worked. Great mathematicians (e.g. Newton) closely guarded their discoveries and methods from the rest of the world until _they_ were ready to release it. You couldn't use Newton's discoveries for quite a while after he discovered them since he didn't let them out right away. Knowing Newton's personality, he might have applied for patents if could have. > Or, to shift the origin of the time axis, what if people patented each and > every new mathematical/informatics/routing/whatever theorem and/or algorithm? There are many motives for patenting or not patenting. There is no point in patenting something that you don't think will ever recover more in license money than it costs to register and maintain the patent. Most discoveries fall into that category. When speaking of "routing," a lot of companies spend lots of money developing technologies and then give away the knowledge in the form of an open standard and an RFC. In that case, it is in their interest for as many people to adopt the standard as possible. For someone like a Cisco, they can spend money on this with no patent return since they plan to make money off of the hardware and support. Although it is perfectly reasonable for them to sometimes patent this kind of work if interoperaility with other products is not something they are after. > Should/would you have to pay each and every time a theoretical paper/book of > yours made [auxiliary] use of a patented theorem/algorithm? No. Just explaining how a patented process works is not using the patented process to produce something. For example, back when RSA was still patented, it was perfectly legal for me to put the algorithm in a book and sell it. > And/or each and > every time a program of yours made use of the patented algorithm(s)? But I could not put a CDROM in my book with a working version of the code without licensing the technology. > How long > [reasonably] for? Patents have always had expirations. There are very good arguments that patents for algorithms should have short lifespans realtive to the current laws. > What impact would this have on the development of _new_ works and/or [better] > programs in the field (or even in other fields)? It depends on the field. Allowing patents can cause a field to boom. If people believe they can make money off of a technology and that they will have patent protection for their discoveries, they may invest great amounts of money and resources into the field. > Incidentally, AFAIK, the development of Mathematics, Logic, Informatics, > Science at large has occurred fast and furious without patents for the last > few centuries[1]. Freedom of development has been (and is) of primal > importance. It is for **this** reason that you are in a position to develop > your new nifty ideas _today_. As I mentioned at the top, it may not be as free as open as you think. If anyone had patented ideas, it wouldn't matter today anyways since the patents would have long ago expired. Anyways, patents _do_ allow information to be "free." If you have a patented device or process you can feel free to share information about how it works, how you discovered it, etc. and not need to worry about people stealing your investment. The alternative is people trying to keep all of their work completely secret to avoid letting other people hear of it and copy it. [snip] > Theorem/algorithm T/Ai (the ith theorem and the associated algorithm, if any) > is a scientific achievement, for i=1,2,...,N. As such, these theorems must > figure in the appropriate book(s). They constitute knowledge and as such they > must be shared. Not sharing knowledge is a dangerous form of obscurantism. > And YES, it should be a national[2] interest to finance researchers rather > then make them attempt to *patent* *knowledge*... They "must be" shared with the world. Hmmm... Again, it is and never really has been this way. Take one of the most interesting scientific and engineering efforts of the century, the Manhattan Project. That research took place amongst a _very_ small but able scientific community sequestered in the desert. It was quite a while for that to be shared with the world at large; we all know why. Same story for the hydrogen bomb or any other technology developments placed under the cover of national security. The idea that all information "needs to be free" is a rather naive one. By the way, I should point out, and this may not be clear to you, that you just cannot patent information. Say that tomorrow you discover a proof that (much to everyone's surprise) NP really does not exist and any mathematical problem can be solved in polynomial time. You cannot patent that fact or that information. However, if you discover a method to actually solve some set of problems once believed to be NP in polynomial time, you can patent that method if you want. If someone else finds a method to solve some other class of NP problems using some method of their own, you cannot claim you own it because you wrote the proof that it could be done. > It is about this point that I disagree. In general, IMO Science should be > patent-free. That's just not a reasonable view of how the world works. For example, the entire field of medicine would come to an almost complete standstill without patents. HUGE amounts of money are spent developing drugs and devices to be patented. Again, drug companies and other research groups freely publish their results in the very rich medical literature due to the fact that they have patents on the technologies. If they didn't have patents, they wouldn't publish the information. (And no, I'm not going to fall into the arguments over patenting genes or organisms. That is a troubling detail of patent law that needs serious consideration, but is no cause to throw the baby out with the bathwater.) > > (Not to say that some people haven't pulled some things off with the > > Patent Office. One of the jokes about a former employer of mine was > > that the company had a patent on least-squares regression. It really > > did.) > > Urk. The patent was for applying least-squares regression to a certain specific type of data in a specific way. It is unlikely it would have stood up to scrutiny, and I think it's expired by now. It's not as outrageous as Amazon's "single-click" patent. No where am I saying patent law is perfect. I don't shop Amazon. > If Numerical Analysis (Numerical Calculus/Methods in English?) were to become > a collection of patents, how [fast] would people go ahead? I am sure that there are some patents on various methods of numerical analysis. > Next, what would prevent all fields of Mathematics from becoming a set of > patents? Would you imagine Functional Analysis (cf Quantum Mechanics) to be a > collection of patents? You are most probably aware that Q.M. will have a > number of consequences for C.S. and computers at large. Again, you cannot patent information. A process you patent can then be freely shared with the world. You really only need to worry about getting a license for a patented algorithm if you are selling the algorithm or using it yourself and selling the products of it. > There has to be a better form of protection, both of the programmer's work as > a form of art and of the programmer's work as science (well, when it is the > case :-)), a form of protection avoiding obscurantism. IMO, FWIW, patenting > algorithms is a dangerous way. But you agree there needs to be protection. If you have a better way, offer it up. I don't think that the patent system is perfect or that it is not frequently abused[0]. I do believe patents are the best fit we have right now for protecting the IP inherent in computer programs. [0] There are some beauties in the computer and Internet industries beside's Amazon, Open Market (5,715,314) owns electronic shopping carts, Priceline.com (5,794,207) owns patents on buyer-driven sales (and has sued M$ and Expedia, I hate to have to cheer for M$, but...), and Sightsound.com (5,191,573) owns music downloads (has sued Time Warner and CDNow, they demand 1% royalties on _all_ online music sellers). -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu cjclark@jhu.edu cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 14:35:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE6C37B405 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9ALZeN71055 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:35:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA93718 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:35:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:35:39 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org>; from cristjc@earthlink.net on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:01:26PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Crist J. Clark said on Oct 10, 2001 at 14:01:26: > > programs in the field (or even in other fields)? > > It depends on the field. Allowing patents can cause a field to > boom. If people believe they can make money off of a technology and > that they will have patent protection for their discoveries, they may > invest great amounts of money and resources into the field. This is a common claim. The trouble is it is hard to substantiate, or test in a controlled way, and depends on too many assumptions (that people will not do research except on money; people will not spend money on expensive research except for tangible rewards; people will not innovate unless they can control the use of their ideas; etc.) > > It is about this point that I disagree. In general, IMO Science should be > > patent-free. > > That's just not a reasonable view of how the world works. For example, > the entire field of medicine would come to an almost complete > standstill without patents. HUGE amounts of money are spent developing > drugs and devices to be patented. Reality check: Even *huger* amounts of money are being spent on legal budgets to defend those patents. Most drug companies spend much more on their legal fees than on research. Moreover, some of them classify "marketing research" under "research". The majority of the drugs being developed and patented are in fact of little interest to anyone; then the drug companies get into the game of marketing their drugs, and convincing you, the customer, that you actually need them. Naturally, where the sufferers of the disease are mainly from poor developing countries, there is not much interest in developing drugs for them. The biggest medical breakthrough in the 20th century was undoubtedly Fleming's discovery of antibiotics. This had nothing to do with patent protection. Nor did Barnard's development of open-heart surgery, or any other major medical advance I can think of, in fact. There is a good case for arguing that patent restrictions *throttle* good research, by making research into improvement of an AIDS drug, for instance, too expensive to be affordable to anyone but a very well-funded multinational. For some unflattering comments on the pharmaceutical industry, see http://www.mercola.com/2000/june/24/pharmaceutical_industry.htm And of course, there was the recent mess about cheap AIDS drugs in Brazil and South Africa. Personally, I think the pharmaceutical industry (in which I also include genetic patents) is the second-worst possible advertisement for patents (software being first). > Again, drug companies and other > research groups freely publish their results in the very rich medical > literature due to the fact that they have patents on the > technologies. If they didn't have patents, they wouldn't publish the > information. The "other research groups" most certainly would, as they have been doing throughout. I don't think you understand what drives research. > > > (Not to say that some people haven't pulled some things off with the > > > Patent Office. One of the jokes about a former employer of mine was > > > that the company had a patent on least-squares regression. It really > > > did.) > > > > Urk. > > The patent was for applying least-squares regression to a certain > specific type of data in a specific way. It is unlikely it would have > stood up to scrutiny, and I think it's expired by now. One of the Ig Nobel prizes this year went jointly to someone in Australia who patented the wheel, and to the patent office which granted the patent. > But you agree there needs to be protection. If you have a better way, > offer it up. I don't think that the patent system is perfect or that > it is not frequently abused[0]. I do believe patents are the best fit > we have right now for protecting the IP inherent in computer programs. It seems to me there is even less justification for patenting computer algorithms on economic grounds, than for patenting pharmaceutical products. To develop and test a new drug, you do need funding; to develop a new algorithm, you certainly don't, other than your salary. People will continue to develop such algorithms anyway, as they always have, without patent protection. It reminds me of a passage in Jessica Litman's "Digital Copyright" (highly recommended reading) where she compares the content industry's insistence on stringent copyright protection with the arguments: Supposing food were not copyrightable, then your elite cordon bleu restaurant could instantly have its recipes ripped off by the cheap takeaway down the street. They couldn't differentiate their products; There would be no incentive; eventually we'd all be reduced to eating Uncle Ben's. Or suppose clothing styles were not protected by copyright: then Versace and Armani could be ripped off by any smalltime tailor, and the fashion industry would be killed by cheap knockoffs. Of course, food recipes and clothing designs are protected by copyright, and never have been. (But I very much fear they will be. That, or patents.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 14:40:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9C937B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9ALeZN71342 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:40:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA93889 ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:40:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:40:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: correction (Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark) Message-ID: <20011010234034.A93727@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:35:39PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:35:39: > knockoffs. Of course, food recipes and clothing designs are > protected by copyright, and never have been. Are *not* protected by copyright, I meant. Sorry, been doing too much typing today... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 15:42:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A46137B409 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9AMfIj18316; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:41:18 +0200 (CEST) To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, "Crist J. Clark" Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <1002753678.3bc4ce8e10a73@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:41:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> In-Reply-To: <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.238.92 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: Many thanks for your kind reply, which casts light on some aspects of patenting. > Let me preface with IANAL. > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:39:20PM +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > > [snip] > > > > > The things mentioned above were new when they were discovered. What > if people > > had "patented" the [more or less trivial] algorithms mentioned the > very same > > day they were created? :-) > > > > Solving second degree polynomials was not trivial when it was > discovered. Patent protection is a rather recent invention realtive to > mathematics. We tend to think of science being a field where everyone > is just looking for a chance to share all of their thoughts with > everyone else. That's the ideal. This is not how it always worked nor > how it has ever worked. Great mathematicians (e.g. Newton) closely > guarded their discoveries and methods from the rest of the world until > _they_ were ready to release it. You couldn't use Newton's discoveries Maybe because they wanted to make sure that they would get all the credit for their discoveries. :-) > for quite a while after he discovered them since he didn't let them > out right away. Knowing Newton's personality, he might have applied > for patents if could have. Newton hadn't a nice personality, actually. :-)) > > Or, to shift the origin of the time axis, what if people patented each > and > > every new mathematical/informatics/routing/whatever theorem and/or > algorithm? > > There are many motives for patenting or not patenting. There is no > point in patenting something that you don't think will ever recover > more in license money than it costs to register and maintain the > patent. Most discoveries fall into that category. When speaking of > "routing," a lot of companies spend lots of money developing > technologies and then give away the knowledge in the form of an open > standard and an RFC. In that case, it is in their interest for as many > people to adopt the standard as possible. For someone like a Cisco, > they can spend money on this with no patent return since they plan to > make money off of the hardware and support. Although it is perfectly > reasonable for them to sometimes patent this kind of work if > interoperaility with other products is not something they are after. > > > Should/would you have to pay each and every time a theoretical > paper/book of > > yours made [auxiliary] use of a patented theorem/algorithm? > > No. Just explaining how a patented process works is not using the > patented process to produce something. For example, back when RSA was > still patented, it was perfectly legal for me to put the algorithm in > a book and sell it. Could you make *money* out of it without paying *anything* to RSA folks? > > And/or each and > > every time a program of yours made use of the patented algorithm(s)? > > But I could not put a CDROM in my book with a working version of the > code without licensing the technology. > > > How long > > [reasonably] for? > > Patents have always had expirations. There are very good arguments > that patents for algorithms should have short lifespans realtive to > the current laws. > > > What impact would this have on the development of _new_ works and/or > [better] > > programs in the field (or even in other fields)? > > It depends on the field. Allowing patents can cause a field to > boom. If people believe they can make money off of a technology and > that they will have patent protection for their discoveries, they may > invest great amounts of money and resources into the field. I won't add to Rahul's comment on medicine here. A number of people did a lot of work in *difficult* conditions for reasons which had little to do with money. But I WILL add one comment on another field. Albert Einstein was a clerk in a patent (!!) office when he released his Theory of Relativity. :-))) > > Incidentally, AFAIK, the development of Mathematics, Logic, > Informatics, > > Science at large has occurred fast and furious without patents for the > last > > few centuries[1]. Freedom of development has been (and is) of primal > > importance. It is for **this** reason that you are in a position to > develop > > your new nifty ideas _today_. > > As I mentioned at the top, it may not be as free as open as you > think. credit != money I am aware that today a lot of people (far too many) are seeking money (and only money) desperately. :-) > If anyone had patented ideas, it wouldn't matter today anyways > since the patents would have long ago expired. Anyways, patents _do_ > allow information to be "free." If you have a patented device or > process you can feel free to share information about how it works, how > you discovered it, etc. and not need to worry about people stealing > your investment. The alternative is people trying to keep all of their > work completely secret to avoid letting other people hear of it and > copy it. Thanks for these paragraphs, which cast light on some obscure (to me) aspects. > [snip] > > > Theorem/algorithm T/Ai (the ith theorem and the associated algorithm, > if any) > > is a scientific achievement, for i=1,2,...,N. As such, these theorems > must > > figure in the appropriate book(s). They constitute knowledge and as > such they > > must be shared. Not sharing knowledge is a dangerous form of > obscurantism. > > And YES, it should be a national[2] interest to finance researchers > rather > > then make them attempt to *patent* *knowledge*... > > They "must be" shared with the world. Hmmm... Again, it is and never > really has been this way. Take one of the most interesting scientific > and engineering efforts of the century, the Manhattan Project. That > research took place amongst a _very_ small but able scientific > community sequestered in the desert. It was quite a while for that to > be shared with the world at large; we all know why. Same story for the > hydrogen bomb or any other technology developments placed under the > cover of national security. The idea that all information "needs to be > free" is a rather naive one. I would say yes. And no. Essentially because Science != technology. Nuclear reactions (fission & fusion) are described in many Physics books. _Understanding_ or _knowing_ Science does NOT necessarily imply eg having the technology to produce a fission or H bomb. Plutonium (and other) technologies, yes, those (hopefully) should be kept secret. Here I am afraid I have to agree. :-) > > It is about this point that I disagree. In general, IMO Science > should be > > patent-free. > > That's just not a reasonable view of how the world works. For example, > the entire field of medicine would come to an almost complete > standstill without patents. HUGE amounts of money are spent developing > drugs and devices to be patented. Again, drug companies and other Science != technology. Let's label the knowledge of the mechanisms of how our body works as "science". If you are able to produce a medicine X from that knowledge, you can patent it. If another person produces another medicine from the same laws in the same field, eg a new better medicine, he or she can patent it. This is a very delicate matter, though (cf eg South Africa). Others have and will comment on this. The central point remains: I strongly disagree on patenting _knowledge_. > > Next, what would prevent all fields of Mathematics from becoming a set > of > > patents? Would you imagine Functional Analysis (cf Quantum Mechanics) > to be a > > collection of patents? You are most probably aware that Q.M. will have > a > > number of consequences for C.S. and computers at large. > > Again, you cannot patent information. A process you patent can then be > freely shared with the world. You really only need to worry about > getting a license for a patented algorithm if you are selling the > algorithm or using it yourself and selling the products of it. Hmm You would NOT be allowed to apply a F.A.-related theorem/algorithm in any computer program evaluating eg Q.M. quantities (say, relating to a given Q.C.S. device) without paying [$$$]$$$, because the theorem & related numerical method is patented. That sounds like trouble (to me). I don't thinks this helps research. > > There has to be a better form of protection, both of the programmer's > work as > > a form of art and of the programmer's work as science (well, when it > is the > > case :-)), a form of protection avoiding obscurantism. IMO, FWIW, > patenting > > algorithms is a dangerous way. > > But you agree there needs to be protection. If you have a better way, > offer it up. I don't think that the patent system is perfect or that > it is not frequently abused[0]. I do believe patents are the best fit > we have right now for protecting the IP inherent in computer programs. > > [0] There are some beauties in the computer and Internet industries > beside's Amazon, Open Market (5,715,314) owns electronic shopping > carts, Priceline.com (5,794,207) owns patents on buyer-driven sales > (and has sued M$ and Expedia, I hate to have to cheer for M$, but...), > and Sightsound.com (5,191,573) owns music downloads (has sued Time > Warner and CDNow, they demand 1% royalties on _all_ online music > sellers). > -- Yep, better protection. For example, in order to prevent some of the curious examples you quoted from ever coming into being; and to prevent monsters like M$ from ever applying its ineffable practices. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 16: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp002pub.verizon.net (smtp002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E858337B40B for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp002pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id f9AMxrU19337 Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:59:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07117; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:59:29 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011010155929.B7038@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101446.053c3560@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:39:25AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is beginning to sound like a cyberpunk novel. You can almost imagine the hero protagonist of the story hacking together an expert system out of automobile control systems and ported open source software. Will we end up scrapping missile guidance systems in order to have CPU that will run unkeyed software? Forget the data havens, be ready to move operations to some country that won't play along with this stuff. [RC] On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:39:25AM -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > :At 02:25 AM 10/10/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > : > :>*Only* free software (and ordinary users, who don't > :>have a voice in these things) would suffer from it. > : > :Not so. Do you have any idea how many products IBM has? > :What about the approximately one zillion products that > :contain embedded systems? > > Got to side with Brett on this. I seriously doubt Chrysler, Ford, GM, or > any other car manufacturer is about to start paying fees and royalties for > shipping electronic ignition systems, traction control systems, antilock > braking systems, etc, which are all covered under this abomination as > written. And this is just one industry. Do you think Sunbeam is going to > allow itself to be taxed because it ships coffee makers with digital > clocks? I don't think so. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 16:34:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE12D37B41D for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.244.105.118.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.105.118]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07603; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9ANYAs05842; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:34:10 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011010163410.O387@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:35:39PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:35:39PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Crist J. Clark said on Oct 10, 2001 at 14:01:26: > > > programs in the field (or even in other fields)? > > > > It depends on the field. Allowing patents can cause a field to > > boom. If people believe they can make money off of a technology and > > that they will have patent protection for their discoveries, they may > > invest great amounts of money and resources into the field. > > This is a common claim. The trouble is it is hard to substantiate, or > test in a controlled way, and depends on too many assumptions (that > people will not do research except on money; people will not spend > money on expensive research except for tangible rewards; people will > not innovate unless they can control the use of their ideas; etc.) > > > > It is about this point that I disagree. In general, IMO Science should be > > > patent-free. > > > > That's just not a reasonable view of how the world works. For example, > > the entire field of medicine would come to an almost complete > > standstill without patents. HUGE amounts of money are spent developing > > drugs and devices to be patented. > > Reality check: Even *huger* amounts of money are being spent on legal > budgets to defend those patents. Most drug companies spend much more > on their legal fees than on research. Moreover, some of them classify > "marketing research" under "research". The majority of the drugs > being developed and patented are in fact of little interest to anyone; > then the drug companies get into the game of marketing their drugs, > and convincing you, the customer, that you actually need them. > Naturally, where the sufferers of the disease are mainly from poor > developing countries, there is not much interest in developing drugs > for them. > > The biggest medical breakthrough in the 20th century was undoubtedly > Fleming's discovery of antibiotics. This had nothing to do with > patent protection. Right, up until post-WWII most antibiotic research was funded by government. Antibotics were of tremendous importance to the military for treating battlefield injuries. Post-war, antibotics have been driven by the evil pharmaceutical industry, Tetracycline: US Patent No. 2,699,054. > > Again, drug companies and other > > research groups freely publish their results in the very rich medical > > literature due to the fact that they have patents on the > > technologies. If they didn't have patents, they wouldn't publish the > > information. > > The "other research groups" most certainly would, as they have been > doing throughout. I don't think you understand what drives research. I think I do. One thing is always needed for research, money. When I did research at Johns Hopkins University, we needed money. When I did research at MIT, we needed money. When I did research at TRW, we needed money. At universities, our motives were often solely for the sake of doing more research. The companies that gave us the money were profit driven. > > But you agree there needs to be protection. If you have a better way, > > offer it up. I don't think that the patent system is perfect or that > > it is not frequently abused[0]. I do believe patents are the best fit > > we have right now for protecting the IP inherent in computer programs. > > It seems to me there is even less justification for patenting computer > algorithms on economic grounds, than for patenting pharmaceutical > products. To develop and test a new drug, you do need funding; to > develop a new algorithm, you certainly don't, other than your salary. Right, your employer pays you to develop something and your _employer_ expects to own the patent for it. Someone has to pay for the work. > People will continue to develop such algorithms anyway, as they always > have, without patent protection. Sure, some people will. But this is now getting too close to sounding like we're near plunging into something akin to a GNU license versus capitalism flame-fest. I'm not going there. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu cjclark@jhu.edu cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 22:35:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E9437B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B5ZOT00436; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , "Salvo Bartolotta" Cc: "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:35:24 -0700 Message-ID: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Crist J. Clark [mailto:cristjc@earthlink.net] >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 2:01 PM >To: Salvo Bartolotta >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >But you agree there needs to be protection. If you have a better way, >offer it up. I don't think that the patent system is perfect or that >it is not frequently abused[0]. I do believe patents are the best fit >we have right now for protecting the IP inherent in computer programs. > Let me throw a comment into the mix on this patenting issue. One thing people forget about patents is that they create a permanent record of a process or device. While the most spectacular patents (new drugs, etc.) get plenty of attention in various medical journals and such, the majority of patents are granted for small little things, for example a hand tool. These new inventions generally never see wide distribution and if there wasn't ever a patent on them, the invention might disappear forever. With a patent, someone 20 or 30 years later that needs a particular thing can do a patent search and see if anyone has ever manufactured an invention that solves what they need to do, and if they find an expired patent on an invention they can use the contact info to perhaps dig up a set of plans for it. To give you an idea of what I mean, years ago my father worked for a power switching company that needed to supply a customer with an actuator that moved a large mechanical switch. The only problem was that where this was to be installed was out in the boondocks - no electricity. The company of course had no actuators that didn't run off electric power. So, in the head scratching process of trying to figure out how to answer this, someone happened to look up old actuator patents and ran across one that ran off of compressed air. The patent had of course long since expired but there was enough of a description of how it worked to give them a general idea of what the inventor had been getting at, so they built an actuator that used a cylinder of compressed oxygen (such cylinders are commonly used in welding) that could supply the actuator with mechanical power for a couple hundred cycles. Since the thing actuated perhaps once or twice a year it was a great solution and the customer ended up buying about 50 of the things. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 23:25:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E44B37B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.177.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.177] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15rZHU-0003G2-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:25:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC53B82.2B7E0C0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:26:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101638.053bdbf0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010144912.04b45d40@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:18 PM 10/10/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Whatever; I don't need Catholic lessons from non-Catholics. 8-). > > Actually, the best "Catholic lesson from a non-Catholic" is > at > > http://www.geocities.com/psi_professor/vaticanrag.html Heh! I need to send this off to some of my more uptight relatives on my mom's side... 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 23:36:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B112C37B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.177.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.177] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15rZRv-0000OH-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:36:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC53E09.21D410C0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:36:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: [ ... ] > We tend to think of science being a field where everyone > is just looking for a chance to share all of their thoughts with > everyone else. That's the ideal. This is not how it always worked nor > how it has ever worked. Great mathematicians (e.g. Newton) closely > guarded their discoveries and methods from the rest of the world until > _they_ were ready to release it. You couldn't use Newton's discoveries > for quite a while after he discovered them since he didn't let them > out right away. Knowing Newton's personality, he might have applied > for patents if could have. [ ... ] It's rather widely accepted folklore these days that Feynman solved some of his problems using Clifford Algebras, and left them out of documentation as "trivial intermediate steps" in order to intimidate his competitors. With Clifford Algebras, it's actually very easy to solve a set of Feynman-Dyson diagrams (note how we now leave Freeman Dyson off the credits these days, and simply call them "Feynman diagrams"), whereas the math is very hard to do the traditional way -- even though you eventually get the answer, and Feynman gets a mystical reputation for both uncanny correctness, and the ability to do complex math in much less time than anyone else. Patents and copyrights were invented to encourage authors and inventors to disclose their work, rather than keeping it to themselves. The U.S. Constitution states "...secure for a limited time..." -- the emphasis here on "limited". Intellectual property isn't real property... I keep hoping that some court somewhere (at an apellate level, where binding case law is made) will treat it as real property. Not because I think IP law needs to be made stronger, but because then I can engage in adverse use, and, not being stopped from such use, establish a prescriptive lien, where I now have rights to use the "property". Just like if I park my car in front of your house for 5 years, and then you decide to buy an RV and tell me to not park there any more so you can park your RV: the fact that you didn't stop me for the 5 years previous means that I have established an interest in that parking spot. I would dearly love to see "squatter's rights" applied to DeCSS or some similar intellectual "property"... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 23:41:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA5037B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.177.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.177] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15rZXG-0002ky-00; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:41:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC53F53.967C60E7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:42:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > This is a common claim. The trouble is it is hard to substantiate, or > test in a controlled way, and depends on too many assumptions (that > people will not do research except on money; people will not spend > money on expensive research except for tangible rewards; people will > not innovate unless they can control the use of their ideas; etc.) I guess we could compare U.S. biotechnology or computer science, where it's possible to patent the results, with other countries, where it is not. 8-). Whether you like it or not, strong intellectual property law is one of the greatest contributors to U.S. primacy in almost all fields of technology where we don't have social reasons for not pursuing the technology. That's not to say that I don't agree with the main point of this dicussion: U.S. I.P. law is becoming insanely draconian, far beyond the level necessary to obtain the benefits of having strong laws for _limited_ periods of time. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 23:48:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0689F37B403 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B6m0T00572; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , Cc: "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:47:57 -0700 Message-ID: <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 2:36 PM >To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu >Cc: Salvo Bartolotta; Ted Mittelstaedt; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >Crist J. Clark said on Oct 10, 2001 at 14:01:26: >> > programs in the field (or even in other fields)? >> >> It depends on the field. Allowing patents can cause a field to >> boom. If people believe they can make money off of a technology and >> that they will have patent protection for their discoveries, they may >> invest great amounts of money and resources into the field. > >This is a common claim. The trouble is it is hard to substantiate, or >test in a controlled way, and depends on too many assumptions (that >people will not do research except on money; people will not spend >money on expensive research except for tangible rewards; people will >not innovate unless they can control the use of their ideas; etc.) > The problem with BOTH of these paragraphs is that they are attempting to formulate a general hypothesis that's applicable across all types of industries and all types of inventors. The little guy in his garage making a new invention != the large corporate research team. Some problems can only be addressed by the large corporate teams and others can only be addressed by the little guy in his garage, still other problems can be addressed by both teams. You can certainly make a case that the little guy in his garage is as much interested in fame and fortune as he is in money - and in fact fame and fortune for him is often even more valuable and much easier for him to use to get money. (consulting fees, etc.) But I think also that you can equally make the case that the large research team MUST be well-funded, and in fact the areas that those teams are the most good are areas where just the raw materials for the experiments alone cost thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars. The patent system is really designed for the large research teams and corporations because they have the legal muscle to defend patent infringements whereas the small inventor usually can't. But of course, the small inventor often benefits from a patent infringement because the big company doing the infringing is just marketing the hell out of his device for him, and he can simply wait and if the invention becomes successful, then he can usually get a quiet out-of-court settlement or even get hired on by the big company. The big companies, on the other hand, definitely don't benefit from patent infringement of their patents. >> > It is about this point that I disagree. In general, IMO Science >should be >> > patent-free. >> >> That's just not a reasonable view of how the world works. For example, >> the entire field of medicine would come to an almost complete >> standstill without patents. HUGE amounts of money are spent developing >> drugs and devices to be patented. > >Reality check: Even *huger* amounts of money are being spent on legal >budgets to defend those patents. Most drug companies spend much more >on their legal fees than on research. I think this is a great simplification of the drug industries legal problems. Today, if someone takes a drug and gets an upset stomach as a side effect they are immediately on the phone with their lawyer suing for malpractice. Not only that but the drug industry has to spend a huge amount of money getting new products through the FDA approval process. Then to top it off the insurance companies are pressuring their customers to substitute Generic drugs for name brand drugs as much as possible. So you get a situation where the drug companies end up having 2 ways to make money. In one class are the companies that make their money by spending a lot of money on developing new drugs then patent them then burn up part of the patent time getting the thing past the approval processes, these folks have a narrow window in which to make money. In the other class are the companies that as soon as the patents expire they run out and manufacture other's drugs in mass quantities and undercut them. There is a reason that you can buy pharmaceuticals cheap in Mexico and carry them across the border and see the same drug selling for 10 times the amount. All of the retirees in San Diego make their trips to Tijuana every month to fill their prescriptions because of this. You don't have people filing multi-million dollar lawsuits in Mexico against the drug companies because the drug they bought made their piss turn green or something stupid like that. >Moreover, some of them classify >"marketing research" under "research". The majority of the drugs >being developed and patented are in fact of little interest to anyone; >then the drug companies get into the game of marketing their drugs, >and convincing you, the customer, that you actually need them. Hey, medicine is Big Business these days, and you can't trust your doctor anymore. This is old news, folks. If you get seriously sick then IMHO your a fool to swallow what your doctor says without question. One of the hottest and most growing fields of knowledge on the Internet today is medical information. There's no excuse for not being an informed consumer in this area. Today the Internet makes it rediculously easy to check up on what your doctor is diagnosing. In fact the newspapers are always printing stories of the parents with the kid with the mysterious malady that sees 10 doctors who don't know what's wrong who then key the symptoms into a search engine and within an hour have 3 possible diagnosis that they then yard off to the doctor for confirmation. The real problem is that this makes people squeamish - well wake up folks, there's a reason your teachers hit you in the head with an eraser to wake you up in Biology class. If you don't have any interest in understanding how your own body functions - well don't come crying to me about it. >Naturally, where the sufferers of the disease are mainly from poor >developing countries, there is not much interest in developing drugs >for them. > Um - most of those "poor developing countries" have a tremendous and critical overpopulation problem. A quarter of them are Catholic and we have a Pope that tells people the Pill is bad, well what the heck do you expect? Those countries can't get population control going the civilized way, so they do it the way the animals do it - they breed like rabbits and let disease and famine and war kill off the population periodically. It's sickening, but your barking up the wrong tree to blame the drug companies about it. Check into it and you will find that in these developing countries that 200 years ago, they didn't have these problems. They also didn't have a tenth of the population they do today. Well, when you overpopulate then you use up your food and what food people can get is piss-poor nutritionally, and when you have people that are undernourished then they have little natural resistance to disease. Instead of throwing medicine at the problem, they need to be handing out birth control pills for free. Hell, tomorrow if the Pope were to announce that the Pill was required of all good Catholics then you would make one of the single most important steps to getting the population under control. Making HIV drugs available for free is just putting salve on the symptoms it does nothing to address the underlying problems that create the condition to start with. >The biggest medical breakthrough in the 20th century was undoubtedly >Fleming's discovery of antibiotics. This had nothing to do with >patent protection. Nor did Barnard's development of open-heart >surgery, or any other major medical advance I can think of, in fact. >There is a good case for arguing that patent restrictions *throttle* >good research, by making research into improvement of an AIDS drug, >for instance, too expensive to be affordable to anyone but a very >well-funded multinational. > Today, just about all major medical problems have already had a fair bit of research pumped into them. The easy solutions have mostly been discovered already. What remains to be done is the harder and more expensive work. There's not an unlimited amount of medical research dollars to go around, and even if there were, there's not an unlimited number of medical researchers. Furthermore, in many people's minds there's some serious questions to be raised by dumping a lot of funding into solving diseases like lung cancer, heart disease, AIDS, and things like that. With those three diseases, there's already solutions - quit smoking, quit overeating fatty junk foods, and quit abusing drugs and sharing needles and having casual sex with prostitutes and anyone else that comes swimming by. And above all, get off your ass and start exercising. >For some unflattering comments on the pharmaceutical industry, see >http://www.mercola.com/2000/june/24/pharmaceutical_industry.htm > I wouldn't shed any tears over the "poor elderly" here. In the US due to the baby boom, in the next 20 years the elderly are going to wield enormous political power. We are already starting to see the results of this, but what's going to happen in the future will make the flap over the "stealing from the social security pot" look like a sandbox fight. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >And of course, there was the recent mess about cheap AIDS drugs in >Brazil and South Africa. Personally, I think the pharmaceutical >industry (in which I also include genetic patents) is the second-worst >possible advertisement for patents (software being first). > > >> Again, drug companies and other >> research groups freely publish their results in the very rich medical >> literature due to the fact that they have patents on the >> technologies. If they didn't have patents, they wouldn't publish the >> information. > >The "other research groups" most certainly would, as they have been >doing throughout. I don't think you understand what drives research. > > >> > > (Not to say that some people haven't pulled some things off with the >> > > Patent Office. One of the jokes about a former employer of mine was >> > > that the company had a patent on least-squares regression. It really >> > > did.) >> > >> > Urk. >> >> The patent was for applying least-squares regression to a certain >> specific type of data in a specific way. It is unlikely it would have >> stood up to scrutiny, and I think it's expired by now. > >One of the Ig Nobel prizes this year went jointly to someone in >Australia who patented the wheel, and to the patent office which >granted the patent. > >> But you agree there needs to be protection. If you have a better way, >> offer it up. I don't think that the patent system is perfect or that >> it is not frequently abused[0]. I do believe patents are the best fit >> we have right now for protecting the IP inherent in computer programs. > >It seems to me there is even less justification for patenting computer >algorithms on economic grounds, than for patenting pharmaceutical >products. To develop and test a new drug, you do need funding; to >develop a new algorithm, you certainly don't, other than your salary. >People will continue to develop such algorithms anyway, as they always >have, without patent protection. > >It reminds me of a passage in Jessica Litman's "Digital Copyright" >(highly recommended reading) where she compares the content industry's >insistence on stringent copyright protection with the arguments: >Supposing food were not copyrightable, then your elite cordon bleu >restaurant could instantly have its recipes ripped off by the cheap >takeaway down the street. They couldn't differentiate their products; >There would be no incentive; eventually we'd all be reduced to eating >Uncle Ben's. Or suppose clothing styles were not protected by >copyright: then Versace and Armani could be ripped off by any >smalltime tailor, and the fashion industry would be killed by cheap >knockoffs. Of course, food recipes and clothing designs are >protected by copyright, and never have been. > >(But I very much fear they will be. That, or patents.) > >R > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 10 23:56:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E3137B401 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DougBarton.net (socks1.yahoo.com [216.145.50.200]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59C08B5A5; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC542A8.CF17D159@DougBarton.net> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:56:40 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <3BC53E09.21D410C0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Just like if I park my car in front of your > house for 5 years, and then you decide to buy an RV and tell > me to not park there any more so you can park your RV: the > fact that you didn't stop me for the 5 years previous means > that I have established an interest in that parking spot. This is really a horrendous example for a number of reasons. A much better example that illustrates the point you're trying to make would be something like, "If I build a fence that sits on and/or encloses part of your property, the longer the fence exists without you objecting to it the stronger my case for a prescriptive lien, and ultimately title of the property passing over to me." -- "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." - George W. Bush, President of the United States September 20, 2001 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 0: 1:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338D437B40A for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.138.177.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.138.177]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07381; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC543EE.9D65DFA8@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:02:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, "Crist J. Clark" , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002753678.3bc4ce8e10a73@webmail.neomedia.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > Take one of the most interesting scientific > > and engineering efforts of the century, the Manhattan Project. That > > research took place amongst a _very_ small but able scientific > > community sequestered in the desert. It was quite a while for that to > > be shared with the world at large; we all know why. Same story for the > > hydrogen bomb or any other technology developments placed under the > > cover of national security. The idea that all information "needs to be > > free" is a rather naive one. > > I would say yes. And no. Essentially because Science != technology. > > Nuclear reactions (fission & fusion) are described in many Physics books. > _Understanding_ or _knowing_ Science does NOT necessarily imply eg having the > technology to produce a fission or H bomb. Security through obscurity never works. It is relatively trivial to build such devices; the book: The Curve of Binding Energy John A. McPhee Noonday Press ISBN: 0374515980 gives sufficient information to calculate the neutron numbers, and therefore the critical mass, for any radioactive material that is capable of fission. The 1972 World Book Encyclopedia gives designs for two fission devices in sufficient detail to work out the rest. The way we control such things is to control the availability of the critical raw materials very, very carefully. One of the reasons we have been so careful to court Pakistan and Uzbekistan must be that they are Afghanistan's neighbors, and are both members of "the nuclear club". The U.S. has controlled Nitrogen-Phosphorus fertilizer, one of the components of the device used by McVey in his attack on the Oklahoma City Federal building; this was supposedly one of the materials being brought in over the U.S.-Canada border for the planned "millenium attack" which never happened, because bin Laden's man was captured at the border. > Plutonium (and other) technologies, yes, those (hopefully) > should be kept secret. Here I am afraid I have to agree. :-) They aren't, but access is controlled. In one case, it was controlled by Israel bombing an Iraqi breeder reactor factility to prevent them from producing enriched nuclear materials for use in weapons. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 0: 1:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0929537B40D for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B71LT00619; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Cc: "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:01:21 -0700 Message-ID: <009c01c15222$884e8ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3BC53E09.21D410C0@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Terry Lambert [mailto:tlambert2@mindspring.com] >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:37 PM >To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu >Cc: Salvo Bartolotta; Ted Mittelstaedt; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >"Crist J. Clark" wrote: > >[ ... ] > >> We tend to think of science being a field where everyone >> is just looking for a chance to share all of their thoughts with >> everyone else. That's the ideal. This is not how it always worked nor >> how it has ever worked. Great mathematicians (e.g. Newton) closely >> guarded their discoveries and methods from the rest of the world until >> _they_ were ready to release it. You couldn't use Newton's discoveries >> for quite a while after he discovered them since he didn't let them >> out right away. Knowing Newton's personality, he might have applied >> for patents if could have. > >[ ... ] > >It's rather widely accepted folklore these days that Feynman >solved some of his problems using Clifford Algebras, and left >them out of documentation as "trivial intermediate steps" in >order to intimidate his competitors. With Clifford Algebras, >it's actually very easy to solve a set of Feynman-Dyson diagrams >(note how we now leave Freeman Dyson off the credits these days, >and simply call them "Feynman diagrams"), whereas the math is >very hard to do the traditional way -- even though you eventually >get the answer, and Feynman gets a mystical reputation for both >uncanny correctness, and the ability to do complex math in much >less time than anyone else. > >Patents and copyrights were invented to encourage authors and >inventors to disclose their work, rather than keeping it to >themselves. The U.S. Constitution states "...secure for a >limited time..." -- the emphasis here on "limited". > >Intellectual property isn't real property... I keep hoping that >some court somewhere (at an apellate level, where binding case >law is made) will treat it as real property. Not because I >think IP law needs to be made stronger, but because then I can >engage in adverse use, and, not being stopped from such use, >establish a prescriptive lien, where I now have rights to use >the "property". Just like if I park my car in front of your >house for 5 years, and then you decide to buy an RV and tell >me to not park there any more so you can park your RV: the >fact that you didn't stop me for the 5 years previous means >that I have established an interest in that parking spot. > Of course - if said parking space is on the street, neither of you has any right to be there as the street is owned by the municipality, and most of them have "48 hour limit" ordinances that while rarely enforced, do make it illegal for both of you to claim an interest in the space. Now, another interesting part to that - if IP was made real - then it could be subject to property taxes. That's a nasty thought! :-) >I would dearly love to see "squatter's rights" applied to DeCSS >or some similar intellectual "property"... > I think it's even more useful the way it is now - because it entices the MPAA to waste money trying to shut it down. As long as they are out there chasing the Napsters of the world they are going to be too preoccupied to actually develop some encryption that works right. :-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 0: 9:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C0837B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B799T00634; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Doug Barton" , Cc: , "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:09:09 -0700 Message-ID: <009f01c15223$9f7718c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3BC542A8.CF17D159@DougBarton.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: doug@yahoo-inc.com [mailto:doug@yahoo-inc.com]On Behalf Of Doug >Barton >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:57 PM >To: tlambert2@mindspring.com >Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu; Salvo Bartolotta; Ted Mittelstaedt; P. U. >(Uli) Kruppa; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Just like if I park my car in front of your >> house for 5 years, and then you decide to buy an RV and tell >> me to not park there any more so you can park your RV: the >> fact that you didn't stop me for the 5 years previous means >> that I have established an interest in that parking spot. > > This is really a horrendous example for a number of reasons. A much >better example that illustrates the point you're trying to make would be >something like, "If I build a fence that sits on and/or encloses part of >your property, the longer the fence exists without you objecting to it >the stronger my case for a prescriptive lien, and ultimately title of >the property passing over to me." > Even this example has flaws - because the property boundary must be acceptable to local laws and regulations. In most cities there's a minimum lot density as well as a minimum distance the property line must be from any structure. You can build a fence in the wrong place and the neighbor may not object - but if moving the property line will put it too close to the neighbor's house or make his lot fall below the minimum lot size, then the city isn't going to issue a new deed no matter what lien you get. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 0:59:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2A137B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-26-103.dial.proxad.net [213.228.26.103]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4504FAB135 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 530 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Oct 2001 07:53:36 -0000 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:53:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011095336.A475@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC53F53.967C60E7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC53F53.967C60E7@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:42:27PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:42:27: > > I guess we could compare U.S. biotechnology or computer science, > where it's possible to patent the results, with other countries, > where it is not. 8-). > > Whether you like it or not, strong intellectual property law > is one of the greatest contributors to U.S. primacy in almost > all fields of technology where we don't have social reasons > for not pursuing the technology. I guess this is also the reason the US has led research in theoretical physics since World War II, to the point that we now understand high-energy physics down to some fantastically small length scales, we understand metals and "traditional" superconductors very well, we have the basic equations everywhere and the remaining difficulties are in solving them and finding suitable approximations. A huge amount of this work was done in the US, which has received the largest fraction of the Nobels too. I suppose it wouldn't have happened without protecting the IP of all these physicists. Or would it? How many patents were given out in these areas? The fact is the US has one of the best university systems in the world, and around WW II, it also had a huge influx of some of the best brains from Europe, which made the US a leader in research. This has nothing to do with IP; nothing in theoretical physics is protected by IP. The US lead is simply because of a better infrastructure. Even so, the Japanese have dominated in some markets, such as small cars and consumer electronics; Europe has produced some well known brands too (the Netherlands perhaps have more multinationals per capita than any other country, and incidentally they have a strong university system too). The Japanese story is particularly interesting, because they made hardly any technological breakthroughs themselves; they took others' technology (like the transistor) and used it in innovative ways. Their success owes nothing whatever to strong IP protection. (It's funny that Yamaha is one of the biggest names in making classical and flamenco Spanish guitars today, among other musical instruments. This has nothing to do with IP protection either.) The US lead in computer science also has nothing to do with strong IP protection; it's because of its thriving university system, and many computer scientists are opposed to software patents. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 1: 0:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2646937B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-26-103.dial.proxad.net [213.228.26.103]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8D2AB16D for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:59:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 570 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Oct 2001 07:58:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:58:45 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:47:57PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:47:57: > The patent system is really designed for the large research teams > and corporations because they have the legal muscle to defend patent > infringements whereas the small inventor usually can't. But of > course, the small inventor often benefits from a patent infringement > because the big company doing the infringing is just marketing the > hell out of his device for him, and he can simply wait and if the > invention becomes successful, then he can usually get a quiet > out-of-court settlement or even get hired on by the big company. This happens fairly rarely. First, the small company should have the resources for legal proceedings against the big company. These days, whoever hires the bigger lawyer wins. Second, even when the small company does do this, the "innovation" is considered pretty standard by that time, so the sudden patent claims are not looked on very kindly. > The big companies, on the other hand, definitely don't benefit from > patent infringement of their patents. Isn't Unisys a "big company"? It was at one time, anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of lesser-known cases, but I haven't really followed them. > There is a reason that you can buy pharmaceuticals cheap in Mexico > and carry them across the border and see the same drug selling for > 10 times the amount. All of the retirees in San Diego make their > trips to Tijuana every month to fill their prescriptions because of > this. You don't have people filing multi-million dollar lawsuits in > Mexico against the drug companies because the drug they bought made > their piss turn green or something stupid like that. Hmm, well I hadn't thought of that. That's a uniquely American problem. > Hey, medicine is Big Business these days, and you can't trust your doctor > anymore. This is old news, folks. If you get seriously sick then IMHO > your a fool to swallow what your doctor says without question. One of the > hottest and most growing fields of knowledge on the Internet today is > medical information. There's no excuse for not being an informed consumer > in this area. Today the Internet makes it rediculously easy to check up > on what your doctor is diagnosing. In fact the newspapers are always > printing stories of the parents with the kid with the mysterious malady > that sees 10 doctors who don't know what's wrong who then key the symptoms > into a search engine and within an hour have 3 possible diagnosis that they > then yard off to the doctor for confirmation. On the other hand, self medication can be extremely dangerous. I'm not a doctor, but I know plenty of doctors very well, and one of the major problems they have is persuading patients that there's nothing wrong with them (beyond perhaps bad food habits and lack of exercise, or something like that). The patients insist on medication (particularly if they're not highly educated) so the doctors end up prescribing harmless placebos or vitamin B. But if you encourage patients to start off making self-diagnoses: for every one case where they're right, there will be 20 where they're hopelessly self-deluded, and be a nuisance to both the doctor and the pharmacist. Luckily pharmacies don't sell without prescriptions, but if the patient hops from doctor to doctor until getting a prescription he/she likes (and this is not difficult), there's not much that the pharmacy can do. You may think this is a necessary consequence of medicine being big business, but I think it's a Bad Thing. There's a reason why medical school takes 5 years or more. > there's a reason your teachers hit you in the head with an eraser to wake > you up in Biology class. Biology class is totally different from medical school. Most of us did not go to medical school. > >Naturally, where the sufferers of the disease are mainly from poor > >developing countries, there is not much interest in developing drugs > >for them. > > > > Um - most of those "poor developing countries" have a tremendous and > critical overpopulation problem. A quarter of them are Catholic and > we have a Pope that tells people the Pill is bad, well what the heck > do you expect? Those countries can't get population control going the > civilized way, so they do it the way the animals do it - they breed like > rabbits and let disease and famine and war kill off the population > periodically. This is a stupid statement. Yes, overpopulation is bad, but the diseases existed much before the overpopulation (in fact the overpopulation is largely *because* of more effective control of the less dangerous diseases, which has increased lifetimes). Overpopulation also has little to do with the pill, and more to do with the fact that in a poor family, children are cheap labour and hence regarded as valuable assets; especially sons. > It's sickening, but your barking up the wrong tree to blame the drug > companies about it. Check into it and you will find that in these > developing countries that 200 years ago, they didn't have these problems. Oh, yes, they did. And so did the western world. Check on the plague in England, for example; but 100 years ago people were even dying of influenza in the west. Today, we have an array of cancer treatments which are still of no help if you were diagnosed just a bit too late. We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, let alone some of the more obscure African diseases like ebola. > >The biggest medical breakthrough in the 20th century was undoubtedly > >Fleming's discovery of antibiotics. This had nothing to do with > >patent protection. Nor did Barnard's development of open-heart > >surgery, or any other major medical advance I can think of, in fact. > >There is a good case for arguing that patent restrictions *throttle* > >good research, by making research into improvement of an AIDS drug, > >for instance, too expensive to be affordable to anyone but a very > >well-funded multinational. > > > > Today, just about all major medical problems have already had a fair > bit of research pumped into them. The easy solutions have mostly been > discovered already. What remains to be done is the harder and more > expensive work. Everything looks easy after someone's done it. Future breakthroughs will not come from refining the existing drugs and antibiotics, but from some totally new approach like designing proteins/enzymes for specific tasks, genetics, or something nobody has thought of. Such work goes on mainly in universities, not in the pharmaceutical laboratories. > raised by dumping a lot of funding into solving diseases like lung cancer, > heart disease, AIDS, and things like that. With those three diseases, > there's already solutions - quit smoking, quit overeating fatty junk foods, > and quit abusing drugs and sharing needles and having casual sex with > prostitutes and anyone else that comes swimming by. And above all, get > off your ass and start exercising. Well, cancer can have many causes. Even lung cancer: it can come from polluted city air. You can't ask everyone to go live in the mountains. Or it can come for reasons unknown. Heart disease can be hereditary. AIDS is preventable, certainly, but we already have too many cases to ignore it. Funds are needed for medical research, but a new framework is needed where those funds are used correctly, not on pandering to the phobias of the rich while squeezing the poor. Medicine should be part of the infrastructure of "public good", like railways and post which have never been successfully privatised. Instead, we today have instances of multinationals trying to grab patents on the healing properties of things like turmeric, which have been known for centuries among traditional communities. Then the countries most affected by this have to go through expensive and time-consuming litigation to try and overthrow the patent. Patents were meant for the public good, not for the benefit of the multinationals or even the inventors individually; this system falls far short. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 1:11:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36FCC37B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.138.177.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.138.177]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9B8BLH10304; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC5545C.F3697DAD@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:12:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <009c01c15222$884e8ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Of course - if said parking space is on the street, neither of > you has any right to be there as the street is owned by the > municipality, and most of them have "48 hour limit" ordinances > that while rarely enforced, do make it illegal for both of you > to claim an interest in the space. Actually, I specifically picked a parking space for the example due to a Utah case where a city decided that people could no longer park in front of their homes, since the city wanted to use fatter snow plows on the street, and it couldn't fit between two rows of parked cars on either side. The city (Ogden) lost, as they had not enforced their law for many years, and selective enforcement is unconstitutional; then they lost again, after universally enforcing the time based limit, when the same guy claimed a prescriptive lien on the parking space. As far as I know, it's still his parking space (he was my neighbor, on the corner of 24th and Van Buren St., and I was very happy he won, since I had to park several blocks away for a month in the dead of winter). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 1:32:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2778837B406 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.138.177.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.138.177]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9B8Vr306325; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC5592C.1E8734F6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:32:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC53F53.967C60E7@mindspring.com> <20011011095336.A475@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > The fact is the US has one of the best university systems in the > world, and around WW II, it also had a huge influx of some of the best > brains from Europe, which made the US a leader in research. This has > nothing to do with IP; nothing in theoretical physics is protected by > IP. The US lead is simply because of a better infrastructure. Even > so, the Japanese have dominated in some markets, such as small cars > and consumer electronics; Europe has produced some well known brands > too (the Netherlands perhaps have more multinationals per capita than > any other country, and incidentally they have a strong university > system too). You need to check the money trail. MIT has an absolutely *huge* patent portfolio, and gets not an insignificant amount of its funding from patent licenses. Last I heard, it was in the tens of billions, and that was 5 years ago. > The Japanese story is particularly interesting, because they made > hardly any technological breakthroughs themselves; they took others' > technology (like the transistor) and used it in innovative ways. The transistor was never patented; this is because it was disclosed more than a year before anyone thought it might end up being anything more than a curiosity. Bell Labs has done a lot of that sort of thing. > Their success owes nothing whatever to strong IP protection. (It's > funny that Yamaha is one of the biggest names in making classical and > flamenco Spanish guitars today, among other musical instruments. This > has nothing to do with IP protection either.) The US lead in computer > science also has nothing to do with strong IP protection; it's because > of its thriving university system, and many computer scientists are > opposed to software patents. Most computer scientst are opposed to copyright and patents as they are applied to software because of the duration; they are not necessarily opposed to the idea itself. Yes, I'm aware of Donald Knuth's state postion; I'm also aware that he owes us 5 more books, which he has not written while futzing around with TeX. 8-p. Here is a good article (Australian, even): http://www.rhyme.com.au/gd/patents.html -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 1:59:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A0A37B407 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B8weT00886; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: , "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:58:37 -0700 Message-ID: <00ad01c15232$ea21a340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:59 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu; Salvo Bartolotta; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >Ted Mittelstaedt said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:47:57: >> The patent system is really designed for the large research teams >> and corporations because they have the legal muscle to defend patent >> infringements whereas the small inventor usually can't. But of >> course, the small inventor often benefits from a patent infringement >> because the big company doing the infringing is just marketing the >> hell out of his device for him, and he can simply wait and if the >> invention becomes successful, then he can usually get a quiet >> out-of-court settlement or even get hired on by the big company. > >This happens fairly rarely. Only because the large companies _usually_ take care before releasing products to have all the patent ducks lined up. > >> The big companies, on the other hand, definitely don't benefit from >> patent infringement of their patents. > >Isn't Unisys a "big company"? It was at one time, anyway. I'm sure >there are plenty of lesser-known cases, but I haven't really followed >them. > Your probably talking about the GIF patent and certainly Unisys lost big on that as for every one person they got money from there were 10 others that stopped using the file format. >> medical information. There's no excuse for not being an informed consumer >> in this area. Today the Internet makes it rediculously easy to check up >> on what your doctor is diagnosing. In fact the newspapers are always >> printing stories of the parents with the kid with the mysterious malady >> that sees 10 doctors who don't know what's wrong who then key the symptoms >> into a search engine and within an hour have 3 possible diagnosis that they >> then yard off to the doctor for confirmation. > >On the other hand, self medication can be extremely dangerous. I didn't say self-medicate. I said that when the doctor tells you to take something that you should check it out for yourself. If you don't like it then get a second opinion. >But if you encourage >patients to start off making self-diagnoses: Once again I didn't say that - I said that the customer (patient) in this case needs to independently verify what the doctor tells them. > >You may think this is a necessary consequence of medicine being big >business, but I think it's a Bad Thing. There's a reason why medical >school takes 5 years or more. > I didn't say it was a good thing, but I definitely think it's a Bad Thing to accept anything that anyone tells you to do to your body without verification, even casual verification. The idea that you need 5 years medical schooling to understand whether what the doctor is doing is correct or not is bullshit. You may need 5 years to be able to do it to other people, but you don't need a lot of time to understand what the doctor is trying to do with YOU for a particular specific circumstance. >> there's a reason your teachers hit you in the head with an eraser to wake >> you up in Biology class. > >Biology class is totally different from medical school. Most of us >did not go to medical school. > your missing the point. It appears to me that many people are uncomfortable with understanding what goes on in their bodies and want to ignore it and have the doctor tell them what to do. If this is their attitude then they get what they deserve when the snake oil salesman sells them a bottle of hair restorer. > >> >Naturally, where the sufferers of the disease are mainly from poor >> >developing countries, there is not much interest in developing drugs >> >for them. >> > >> >> Um - most of those "poor developing countries" have a tremendous and >> critical overpopulation problem. A quarter of them are Catholic and >> we have a Pope that tells people the Pill is bad, well what the heck >> do you expect? Those countries can't get population control going the >> civilized way, so they do it the way the animals do it - they breed like >> rabbits and let disease and famine and war kill off the population >> periodically. > >This is a stupid statement. Yes, overpopulation is bad, but the >diseases existed much before the overpopulation (in fact the >overpopulation is largely *because* of more effective control >of the less dangerous diseases, which has increased lifetimes). No, the overpopulation is a result of the disruption of the traditional way of life in many of these areas. I don't recall reading that the American Indian had significant overpopulation problems and they were around for thousands and thousands of years. >Overpopulation also has little to do with the pill, and more to do >with the fact that in a poor family, children are cheap labour and >hence regarded as valuable assets; especially sons. > And why do you think this is? It's because many of these societies were changed from the nomadic hunter-gatherer/tribal to farmers by ignorant Europeans. Most country borders in Africa today were drawn with total disregard for ancient tribal boundaries, that's why there's been so many civil wars there. Most of the do-gooders and social workers in the Third World have exactly your attitude - overpopulation is either a Good Thing or an Indifferent Thing. Very few are actually out there preaching and telling people it's wrong to have 10 children even though the disasterous results of that are evident all around them. >> It's sickening, but your barking up the wrong tree to blame the drug >> companies about it. Check into it and you will find that in these >> developing countries that 200 years ago, they didn't have these problems. > >Oh, yes, they did. And so did the western world. Check on the plague >in England, for example; but 100 years ago people were even dying of >influenza in the west. Yes and if you check on the Plague you will find that it was a result of crowding too many people into too small a space in cities. This happened because the population of Europe grew. Face it - most of these plague diseases depend on interlocking clusters of people to spread - you have to have a critical mass. This is shown in disease plagues in wild animal populations all the time. As long as the populations are a reasonable level, these infectious diseases are absent. Push the population up past that and they start appearing. Today, we have an array of cancer treatments >which are still of no help if you were diagnosed just a bit too late. Have you ever wondered why the incidence of cancer has skyrocketed in the last 50 years or so? Well it so happens that I've had cancer in my own past (some time ago that is) and when I had it I developed a particular interest in asking doctors what the cause is. Well, guess what - there's no OFFICIAL reason for most cancers. Some are obvious, like smoking causes lung cancer, destroyed ozone causes skin cancer, but most cancer rates have no obvious reason. However without exception, every doctor I talked to told me that unofficially, they all feel that cancer rates for all cancers have risen so dramatically simply because of environmental pollution. You cannot grow up in an environment where every day of your life your driving around in a car breathing in everyone's exhaust fumes and not be affected by it. But there's zero interest in confirming this because if it ever was confirmed the only answer would be to decrease population, and there's way too many religious problems with anyone getting out there and saying that even the US today is tremendously overpopulated. But, it IS overpopulated, very much so. >We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, let alone >some of the more obscure African diseases like ebola. > And it's population pressures that's forcing people to go into the swamps and less desirable living areas with lots of mosquitos to find living space. Not to mention the overfishing that's killing off the natural predators of the mosquito larva to begin with - overfishing because there's too many people that need to be fed. >> >The biggest medical breakthrough in the 20th century was undoubtedly >> >Fleming's discovery of antibiotics. This had nothing to do with >> >patent protection. Nor did Barnard's development of open-heart >> >surgery, or any other major medical advance I can think of, in fact. >> >There is a good case for arguing that patent restrictions *throttle* >> >good research, by making research into improvement of an AIDS drug, >> >for instance, too expensive to be affordable to anyone but a very >> >well-funded multinational. >> > >> >> Today, just about all major medical problems have already had a fair >> bit of research pumped into them. The easy solutions have mostly been >> discovered already. What remains to be done is the harder and more >> expensive work. > >Everything looks easy after someone's done it. Future breakthroughs >will not come from refining the existing drugs and antibiotics, but >from some totally new approach like designing proteins/enzymes for >specific tasks, genetics, or something nobody has thought of. Such >work goes on mainly in universities, not in the pharmaceutical >laboratories. > 19th century technology had no capability to create genetic solutions. You think that a totally new approach is designing enzymes? This is not a totally new approach it's just one more refinement. It's a very sophisticated refinement and it could not have happened without the predicessor work on antibiotics. >> raised by dumping a lot of funding into solving diseases like lung cancer, >> heart disease, AIDS, and things like that. With those three diseases, >> there's already solutions - quit smoking, quit overeating fatty junk foods, >> and quit abusing drugs and sharing needles and having casual sex with >> prostitutes and anyone else that comes swimming by. And above all, get >> off your ass and start exercising. > >Well, cancer can have many causes. Even lung cancer: it can come from >polluted city air. You can't ask everyone to go live in the >mountains. No but you can tell them to have fewer children which will decrease the population and have fewer people generating less pollution. If the population density were to go down enough then they wouldn't have big cities. >Or it can come for reasons unknown. Heart disease can be >hereditary. Ther'es very little heart disease in Asia - or correction there was very little until they started eating McDonalds cheeseburgers regularly. I think it would be more correct to say that the PROPENSITY for heart disease is hereditary. There is far too much evidence that many of these so-called "diseases" are actually natural responses to screwed up lifestyles. I know that people will tar and feather me for saying this but by gun there's a right way to live and a wrong way to live. Freedom must have responsibility and you don't have the right to stuff your face with McDonalds cheeseburgers every day of your life until you keel over with a heart attack at age 55 then expect the rest of us to dump all our tax dollars into funding research into a new medicine that will dissolve your cholesterol and allow you to continue stuffing yourself like a pig with both trotters in the trough. >AIDS is preventable, certainly, but we already have too >many cases to ignore it. > For every dollar spent on AIDS research a dollar should go to pounding the need for condoms into the "sex in the city" crowd as well as jails to throw the addicts into that the cops pull off the street every day. The way it is now, we spend billions on AIDS drugs and when we pick an addict off the street we book and release them so they aren't even forced to go cold turky off their drug of choice. Where is the sense in that?!?! >Funds are needed for medical research, Funds are needed for everything. There always has been far more good deeds needing money to be done than there has been money to throw at them. but a new framework is needed >where those funds are used correctly, not on pandering to the phobias >of the rich while squeezing the poor. How about pandering to the arteries impacted with fast food grease of the rich? >Medicine should be part of the >infrastructure of "public good", like railways and post which have >never been successfully privatised. Only if the emphasis on the medicine is on solving the root of the problem not alleviating the symptom. Today the entire emphasis in Western medicine is fixing the symptom, once that's done your free to go back to your artery-hardening, lung destroying lifestyle if you wish. As long as that's the attitude, the system is fundamentally screwed up and making it a public industry isn't going to change much. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2: 6:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EC037B406 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.138.177.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.138.177]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24981; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:05:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > This happens fairly rarely. First, the small company should have the > resources for legal proceedings against the big company. These days, > whoever hires the bigger lawyer wins. Second, even when the small > company does do this, the "innovation" is considered pretty standard > by that time, so the sudden patent claims are not looked on very > kindly. You can actually get V.C. to get the lawyers to defend patents, these days... > On the other hand, self medication can be extremely dangerous. I'm > not a doctor, but I know plenty of doctors very well, and one of the > major problems they have is persuading patients that there's nothing > wrong with them (beyond perhaps bad food habits and lack of exercise, > or something like that). The patients insist on medication > (particularly if they're not highly educated) so the doctors end up > prescribing harmless placebos or vitamin B. But if you encourage > patients to start off making self-diagnoses: for every one case where > they're right, there will be 20 where they're hopelessly self-deluded, > and be a nuisance to both the doctor and the pharmacist. Luckily > pharmacies don't sell without prescriptions, but if the patient hops > from doctor to doctor until getting a prescription he/she likes (and > this is not difficult), there's not much that the pharmacy can do. Let me paraphrase a comedian's solution to nuclear waste: I think that this would put back a necessary evolutionary pressure that we've tried to legislate away: I have no problem with abject stupidity being fatal under some not so common corner cases. For everyone who self-medicates themselves to death, average human intelligence goes up. > You may think this is a necessary consequence of medicine being big > business, but I think it's a Bad Thing. There's a reason why medical > school takes 5 years or more. Frankly, I have self-prescribed a lot of treatment, and then had to go to a doctor, let them form their own opinion, and then let them prescribe the same thing I had written on a sticky note in my pocket. I don't suggest treatment for others, as it would be practicing medicine without a license, but I have offered the advice to see their doctor; among other things, I've diagnosed Asberger's Syndrome, Grave's Disease, diabetes myelitis, heavy metal poisoning, bacterial sinusitus, hepatic liver failure, and an atypical Pyogenic Granuloma, among other things. "Reading Is Fundamental". > > there's a reason your teachers hit you in the head with an > > eraser to wake you up in Biology class. > > Biology class is totally different from medical school. Most of us > did not go to medical school. And going to medical school does not convey omniscience or omnipotence... Frankly, if someone has live in their body for 30+ years, and a doctor examines them for 10 minutes, I'm probably going to bet that the doctor will know less about their condition than the person being examined, unless it's something blatant, like a broken arm or a cut, unless the person being examined is a blithely self-unaware idiot. > This is a stupid statement. Yes, overpopulation is bad, but the > diseases existed much before the overpopulation (in fact the > overpopulation is largely *because* of more effective control > of the less dangerous diseases, which has increased lifetimes). So access to improved medical care should have been linked to population controls? > Oh, yes, they did. And so did the western world. Check on the plague > in England, for example; but 100 years ago people were even dying of > influenza in the west. Today, we have an array of cancer treatments > which are still of no help if you were diagnosed just a bit too late. Yeah; this is because of the drug approval process being so involved and arcane, with the justification of "Thaladimide", which never made it to the U.S., even under grossly less restrictive standards for new drugs at the time. If you had malignant Melithisoma (lung cancer caused by asbestos), you would probably be a hell of a lot less understanding of the process and lobbying by other companies which has kept Onconase (a genetically engineered drug derived from the North American tree frog) and other drugs off the market. > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, Actually, we have a vaccine. > let alone some of the more obscure African diseases like ebola. Actually, it has been proven experimentally that blood transfusions from recovered Ebola victims to current victims successfully neutralize the virus, if the blood transfusion is given quickly enough after onset of the diesase process. I recommend reading the book "The Hot Zone". There is also a "Nova" episode which documents the recovery of a nurse after a transfusion from a recovered Ebola victim. > Everything looks easy after someone's done it. Future breakthroughs > will not come from refining the existing drugs and antibiotics, but > from some totally new approach like designing proteins/enzymes for > specific tasks, genetics, or something nobody has thought of. Such > work goes on mainly in universities, not in the pharmaceutical > laboratories. Actually, you should go to the IBM site and search for the term "blue gene". IBM is dedicating an incredible amount of resources to the protein folding problem, which is almost purely a computational problem at this point. > Funds are needed for medical research, but a new framework is needed > where those funds are used correctly, not on pandering to the phobias > of the rich while squeezing the poor. "He who pays the piper calls the tune". > Medicine should be part of the infrastructure of "public good", > like railways and post which have never been successfully privatised. ??? Most of the U.S. railway system has, and remains, privatized. FedEx has been explicitly prohibited from carring ordinary letters, since it was less expensive than the alternative, the government granted monopoly of the U.S. Postal Service. Care to try for a third example? 8-). > Instead, we today have instances of multinationals trying to > grab patents on the healing properties of things like turmeric, > which have been known for centuries among traditional communities. Not patentable: herbs can not be patented; this is why so much funded research ignores them entirely: no return on investment for investigating them. > Then the countries most affected by this have to go through > expensive and time-consuming litigation to try and overthrow > the patent. That's ridiculous. There are many classes of patents that are valid in the U.S. that the rest of the world either does not respect at all (e.g. software or gene patents), or ignores when they can turn a profit by undercutting the U.S. prices (e.g. the AIDS drugs sold to African countries by India and other countries, manufactured with cheaper labor than that available in the U.S.). Realize, also, that those countries have the same vested interest in finding treatment protocols which never actually cure the disease, that the U.S. is claimed to have. > Patents were meant for the public good, not for the benefit > of the multinationals or even the inventors individually; > this system falls far short. "To promote progress in the sciences and useful arts...". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:23:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C317B37B407 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B9NAT01371; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:23:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: , "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:23:10 -0700 Message-ID: <00ae01c15236$583ba4e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3BC5545C.F3697DAD@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Terry Lambert [mailto:tlambert2@mindspring.com] >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:12 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu; Salvo Bartolotta; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> Of course - if said parking space is on the street, neither of >> you has any right to be there as the street is owned by the >> municipality, and most of them have "48 hour limit" ordinances >> that while rarely enforced, do make it illegal for both of you >> to claim an interest in the space. > >Actually, I specifically picked a parking space for the example >due to a Utah case where a city decided that people could no >longer park in front of their homes, since the city wanted to >use fatter snow plows on the street, and it couldn't fit between >two rows of parked cars on either side. > >The city (Ogden) lost, as they had not enforced their law for >many years, and selective enforcement is unconstitutional; >then they lost again, after universally enforcing the time >based limit, when the same guy claimed a prescriptive lien on >the parking space. As far as I know, it's still his parking >space (he was my neighbor, on the corner of 24th and Van Buren >St., and I was very happy he won, since I had to park several >blocks away for a month in the dead of winter). > Utah must have some interesting state property laws on the books. But in a city full of older homes without driveways (which is what I'm guessing they are dealing with) you can't not let people park in front of their homes and some smart judge understood that, whereas the city obviously was deluded into believing that they had any power there. Interesting that the case ended up using the property laws to slap some sense into the city bureaucrats. We have much the same situation here in SE Portland, most homes closer in were constructed in the late 1800's early 1900's and lack driveways. Fortunately it doesen't snow here. :-) It's always facinating to see what the states do with laws associated with vehicles. You can't run US society on mass transit, no matter what is said, driving is a right. But the lawmakers see disaster in codifying that into the law. Yet, when they try to take away the vehicles, people revolt and they can't do it. So in reality, if the state governments have no power to ban cars, then car use really is a right. But they sure don't want you to believe it. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-- Terry > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:28:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51537B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9B9SkN20282 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA18143 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:46 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011112846.A17422@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <00ad01c15232$ea21a340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00ad01c15232$ea21a340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:58:37AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt said on Oct 11, 2001 at 01:58:37: [snipped] The thrust of your mail is that many diseases are due to modern lifestyles. I agree there. No argument. But it's not easy to address that symptom. It's not just polluted air which causes cancer; it's additives in food, pesticides, junk food, synthetic drinks, etc. I was astounded to see the size of the "Nutrition Facts" label on American cans of Coke, or packets of potato chips, for instance. Do people actually add up their daily nutrition requirments from these things? None of these "Nutrition Facts" lists tells you what other poisonous chemicals may exist in the container: they only list carbohydrates, proteins, fats and other broad food categories. You claim that people in third world countries aren't worried about overpopulation. That's not true. The educated people are worried, and many studies have shown that education (especially, education of women) is related to lower birth rates. Overpopulation is a problem. But it has no correlation with tropical diseases, which exist for the same reason that the other diversity of tropical flora and fauna exist: conditions there are conducive to life. (Sometimes I think tropical countries are overpopulated and poor because one can be phenomenally poor and still live; one cannot live without shelter in a European winter. Not a very relevant factor in today's west with social security etc, but very relevant indeed 100 years ago.) You were arguing that epidemics don't take place except in crowded areas. True enough, but disease doesn't have to mean epidemic. Strange diseases can crop up in very deserted places too, and in the long term, take large tolls of life. Rather off-topic, anyway, from the original discussion about patents. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:30:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6B037B409 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.28] ([194.78.144.28]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f9B9Tai15058; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:29:36 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:21:53 +0200 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , , "Salvo Bartolotta" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Cc: "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:35 PM -0700 2001/10/10, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > So, in the head > scratching process of trying to figure out how to answer this, someone > happened to look up old actuator patents and ran across one that ran > off of compressed air. Indeed, that makes a lot of sense. > The patent had of course long since expired > but there was enough of a description of how it worked to give them > a general idea of what the inventor had been getting at, so they > built an actuator that used a cylinder of compressed oxygen (such > cylinders are commonly used in welding) that could supply the actuator > with mechanical power for a couple hundred cycles. I've used such cylinders in Oxyacetylene cutting torches, and brazing, but I don't recall them ever being able to generate enough heat to do proper welding. When I did welding, I used standard arc welding equipment, while my cousin (who is a professional race car builder) uses very expensive MIG (Metal-Inert-Gas) and TIG (Tungsten-Inert-Gas) welding equipment. MIG welding uses a spool of wire that is used as the "welding rod" and through which the current is passed, and then that wire is surrounded by a high-pressure curtain of inert gas (Nitrogen, I think). TIG welding uses a Tungsten tip on the welding rod, which doesn't itself actually melt. You have to supply a separate rod that is actually melted during the process (kind of like soldering or brazing, but at much, much higher temperatures and where the pieces you're working on are also brought to a liquid state), but otherwise is similar to MIG. However, all that said, by far the most dangerous of all gases that are used in welding and similar activities is compressed Oxygen. All other flammable gases will have a hard time finding enough oxygen to burn cleanly or completely, if they are released by accident (such as in an explosion). However, with enough oxygen present, just about anything can be burnt very, very easily. I would seriously hope that these people weren't actually using compressed oxygen, but perhaps instead compressed Nitrogen, or some relatively inert gas. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:48:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC4537B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9B9mJN22627 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:48:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA19213 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:48:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:48:19 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011114819.B17422@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 02:05:16AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 11, 2001 at 02:05:16: > > Everything looks easy after someone's done it. Future breakthroughs > > will not come from refining the existing drugs and antibiotics, but > > from some totally new approach like designing proteins/enzymes for > > specific tasks, genetics, or something nobody has thought of. Such > > work goes on mainly in universities, not in the pharmaceutical > > laboratories. > > Actually, you should go to the IBM site and search for the > term "blue gene". IBM is dedicating an incredible amount of > resources to the protein folding problem, which is almost > purely a computational problem at this point. IBM is doing that for computer/technology reasons, not for medical research. All leading-edge companies do it, to show what they're capable of; IBM's last effort was a chess-playing machine which has no conceivable commercial or social benefit. If Blue Gene actually recovers an enzyme structure which would be useful medically, I doubt IBM would get the patent for it, but you know more than me about that, I'm sure. > > Medicine should be part of the infrastructure of "public good", > > like railways and post which have never been successfully privatised. > > ??? > > Most of the U.S. railway system has, and remains, privatized. I said "successfully". Would you call the US railway system "successful"? It's a shambles, and much of the country is not covered at all. The British railway system too was privatised 10 years ago, and it was disastrous; the controlling company, Railtrack, collapsed very recently. For a good working railway system, try France. Even India has a good solid railway, which doesn't have much frills and is grossly overstressed, but still does its job. > FedEx has been explicitly prohibited from carring ordinary > letters, since it was less expensive than the alternative, > the government granted monopoly of the U.S. Postal Service. I doubt very much FedEx would be less expensive. I know that in India many smaller courier services are less expensive than the Government's "speed post" (not FedEx or DHL, though, they're much more expensive); but none of them even approach the price point of ordinary post; I don't think they're forbidden from doing so, it's just not cost-effective for them to deliver to remote places all over the country. In France, too, FedEx and other couriers are more expensive than the French post's "Chronopost". Ordinary letters within France cost three francs, or around 40 cents; I doubt any courier company could approach that price point. I don't know what the USPS charges for ordinary letters. Perhaps the government granted monopoly of the USPS is merely an inefficient one? > > Instead, we today have instances of multinationals trying to > > grab patents on the healing properties of things like turmeric, > > which have been known for centuries among traditional communities. > > Not patentable: herbs can not be patented; this is why so > much funded research ignores them entirely: no return on > investment for investigating them. You would know about this example if you were from India, or read the Indian press, where it has been a major issue for a long time. It is not the only case; there is a huge catalogue of traditional herbs whose healing properties have been patented. Read http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/tur-cn.htm http://www.rediff.com/news/aug/23tur.htm The turmeric patents were rejected, but only after protracted litigation, which most developing countries can ill afford. Other patents still exist. > > Then the countries most affected by this have to go through > > expensive and time-consuming litigation to try and overthrow > > the patent. > > That's ridiculous. See the above links, again. For more links, just do a search on google, for example, for "turmeric patent" or "neem patent". > Realize, also, that those countries have the same vested > interest in finding treatment protocols which never actually > cure the disease, that the U.S. is claimed to have. Realize, also, that your knowledge of "those countries" is extremely limited and gleaned from a very selective reading. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:52:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E425937B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.137.99.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.137.99]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11400; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9B9q0g07155; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:00 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Uses of Oxygen (was Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark) Message-ID: <20011011025200.V387@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:21:53AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 11:21:53AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: [snip] > However, all that said, by far the most dangerous of all > gases that are used in welding and similar activities is compressed > Oxygen. All other flammable gases will have a hard time finding > enough oxygen to burn cleanly or completely, if they are released by > accident (such as in an explosion). However, with enough oxygen > present, just about anything can be burnt very, very easily. > > I would seriously hope that these people weren't actually > using compressed oxygen, but perhaps instead compressed Nitrogen, or > some relatively inert gas. Yeah, I kind of did a double-take on that too. Things like hydrocarbons, methane, propane, are actually really, really boring and rather inert gases. We tend to forget that it is oxygen which is the hella-wicked, corrisive, violently reactive stuff. Just be cause we live in this freakish atmosphere which is kept full of molecular oxygen as a waste product of photosynthesis, we tend to think of molecular oxygen as something that's normal. It's practically a friggin' free radical. I loved the Babylon 5 episode where they were afraid to use weapons flying around in Jupiter's upper atmosphere since the methane and other hydrocarbons would explode. Heh. Hydrocarbons are not explosive. A hydrocarbon-oxygen mixture _is._ -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu cjclark@jhu.edu cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:52:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F2F37B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9B9qVT01436; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brad Knowles" , , "Salvo Bartolotta" Cc: "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:52:31 -0700 Message-ID: <00ca01c1523a$71e999c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:22 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt; cjclark@alum.mit.edu; Salvo Bartolotta >Cc: P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > > However, all that said, by far the most dangerous of all >gases that are used in welding and similar activities is compressed >Oxygen. All other flammable gases will have a hard time finding >enough oxygen to burn cleanly or completely, if they are released by >accident (such as in an explosion). However, with enough oxygen >present, just about anything can be burnt very, very easily. > > I would seriously hope that these people weren't actually >using compressed oxygen, but perhaps instead compressed Nitrogen, or >some relatively inert gas. > Actually I think it probably was nitrogen, it's cheaper. The basic idea was to use a welding cylinder where the gasses are under thousands of pounds of pressure so as to get the most work out of it. Another thing I just remembered about compressed oxygen is that you can't have any impurities in the lines, no grease oil, etc. as that will explode when hit with compressed oxygen under that pressure, that definitely didn't meet the criteria for those actuators, as they didn't use special lines. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 2:57:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7078237B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9B9viN23689 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:57:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA19730 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:57:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:57:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSSCA? Message-ID: <20011011115740.C17422@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Unhappy Adobe Customer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011008193423.77229.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC34784.4D56D9DF@mindspring.com> <3BC404A6.89276494@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010101638.053bdbf0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011010144912.04b45d40@localhost> <3BC53B82.2B7E0C0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC53B82.2B7E0C0@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:26:10PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:26:10: > > Heh! I need to send this off to some of my more uptight > relatives on my mom's side... 8-) 8-). Send the CD, it's available on amazon and elsewhere: "That was the year that was" by Tom Lehrer. Definitely a worthwhile buy. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 3:13: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30D037B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9BACeT01464; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: , "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:12:39 -0700 Message-ID: <00cb01c1523d$41a1f3e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011011114819.B17422@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:48 AM >To: Terry Lambert >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; cjclark@alum.mit.edu; Salvo Bartolotta; P. U. >(Uli) Kruppa; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >I said "successfully". Would you call the US railway system >"successful"? It's a shambles, and much of the country is not covered >at all. It depends on how you define successful. the US railway system is successful for hauling lots of heavy, bulky freight, like coal, grain, etc. It's horrible for hauling people - but there's a simple reason for that - most people don't want to ride the train, they want to fly. What value is it for the US tax dollars to support a railway system that only a handful want to use? Rail has good success for people-moving in densely populated areas like the subway system in many large cities in this country. It's also got some isolated success in some downtown areas, Portland's NW area is one. But once you get the city density light enough to support space for an automotive infrastructure people will turn their back on rail and use autos. As far as moving people from city to city in the US on rail, it's not economically profitable any more. Once the Interstate highways went in, it finished off rail for interstate people hauling. The only reason people call US rail a shambles is because there's too many people that still have this romanticized view of trains as though they were 100 years ago like a sort of super Orient Express. So instead of allowing Amtrak to die a natural death, they have to keep propping it up. Today the focus is on the airlines, and I fail to see now that we are dumping 15 billion into the airline industry to keep it going that there's any reason to keep dumping money into rail. The British railway system too was privatised 10 years ago, >and it was disastrous; the controlling company, Railtrack, collapsed >very recently. For a good working railway system, try France. Even >India has a good solid railway, which doesn't have much frills and is >grossly overstressed, but still does its job. > It's different cultures there. Private auto ownership in India is drastically lower than here and France also doesen't have every spare inch paved with asphalt roads and parking lots. You would have to fundamentally change the culture in the US to make any difference. Like I said, the US population understands that car use on the public roads is a fundamental right, even if the politicians are too stupid to get it. Aside from a handful of greenies, you would have to pry the steering wheels out of their cold, dead fingers to get them to give them up. It's not like the politicians and intellectuals haven't tried it already. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >> FedEx has been explicitly prohibited from carring ordinary >> letters, since it was less expensive than the alternative, >> the government granted monopoly of the U.S. Postal Service. > >I doubt very much FedEx would be less expensive. I know that in India >many smaller courier services are less expensive than the Government's >"speed post" (not FedEx or DHL, though, they're much more expensive); >but none of them even approach the price point of ordinary post; I >don't think they're forbidden from doing so, it's just not >cost-effective for them to deliver to remote places all over the >country. > >In France, too, FedEx and other couriers are more expensive than the >French post's "Chronopost". Ordinary letters within France cost three >francs, or around 40 cents; I doubt any courier company could approach >that price point. > >I don't know what the USPS charges for ordinary letters. Perhaps the >government granted monopoly of the USPS is merely an inefficient one? > >> > Instead, we today have instances of multinationals trying to >> > grab patents on the healing properties of things like turmeric, >> > which have been known for centuries among traditional communities. >> >> Not patentable: herbs can not be patented; this is why so >> much funded research ignores them entirely: no return on >> investment for investigating them. > >You would know about this example if you were from India, or read the >Indian press, where it has been a major issue for a long time. It is >not the only case; there is a huge catalogue of traditional herbs >whose healing properties have been patented. > >Read >http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/tur-cn.htm >http://www.rediff.com/news/aug/23tur.htm > >The turmeric patents were rejected, but only after protracted >litigation, which most developing countries can ill afford. Other >patents still exist. > > >> > Then the countries most affected by this have to go through >> > expensive and time-consuming litigation to try and overthrow >> > the patent. >> >> That's ridiculous. > >See the above links, again. For more links, just do a search on >google, for example, for "turmeric patent" or "neem patent". > >> Realize, also, that those countries have the same vested >> interest in finding treatment protocols which never actually >> cure the disease, that the U.S. is claimed to have. > >Realize, also, that your knowledge of "those countries" is extremely >limited and gleaned from a very selective reading. > >R > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 3:22:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7824F37B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9BAM5N26248 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:22:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA20877 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:22:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:22:05 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011122205.D17422@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC53F53.967C60E7@mindspring.com> <20011011095336.A475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC5592C.1E8734F6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC5592C.1E8734F6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:32:44AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 11, 2001 at 01:32:44: > > You need to check the money trail. MIT has an absolutely > *huge* patent portfolio, and gets not an insignificant amount > of its funding from patent licenses. Last I heard, it was > in the tens of billions, and that was 5 years ago. I'm not sure of the numbers, but in the "boom years" after the war, universities got much of their funding from the government: some from the NSF, some from places like NASA. It was driven by technological competition with the USSR, and by military desires (the development of the atomic bomb convinced many that theoretical physics was the way to go...) but whatever the motivations, it had a good effect, for US industry in particular. The funding didn't conflict with the idea that university research is for the public good and should not be appropriated for private profit. Today, that idea is indeed being questioned more and more, but I'd find it quite distressing if universities started regarding patent portfolios as more important than sharing of knowledge. > The transistor was never patented; this is because it was > disclosed more than a year before anyone thought it might > end up being anything more than a curiosity. Bell Labs > has done a lot of that sort of thing. And you can argue that the benefits have been immense. Because the transistor was never patented, it was picked up and played with everywhere, especially by the Japanese. Bell Labs didn't really lose much either: they got a Nobel, fame, etc. If they had tried to hold tightly to their invention, they may have got a few royalties, but the uses to which it was put within the next decade would probably not have materialised so quickly. My point of view is this: when a company develops a new innovation, it *already* has an advantage over its competitors; it can be first to market, it can strengthen its brand image, it can stay ahead of its competitors. However, with strong patent protection, the company can rest on its patents and try to earn revenues by squeezing the rest of the world (like Rambus tried, unsuccessfully, to do). Without patent protection, it will feel the pressure to continue innovating; but if it continues innovating, its brand image will only improve. Most people will be willing to pay 2 or 3 times as much for Glaxo or Pfizer than for a generic knockoff. But if the factor is 200 or 300, rather than 2 or 3, that's a different matter altogether. People continued to buy Intel even though AMD's products were cheaper and performed better. Compare with food products: people buy Kelloggs, or Kraft, for the brand name, not because of superior quality. There is no patent or other IP protection for cheese or corn flakes. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 3:24: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AD137B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9BANWT01500; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: , "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:23:32 -0700 Message-ID: <00cc01c1523e$c6fb6a20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011011112846.A17422@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:29 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu; Salvo Bartolotta; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark > > >Ted Mittelstaedt said on Oct 11, 2001 at 01:58:37: >[snipped] > >The thrust of your mail is that many diseases are due to modern >lifestyles. I agree there. No argument. But it's not easy to >address that symptom. It's not just polluted air which causes cancer; >it's additives in food, pesticides, junk food, synthetic drinks, etc. >I was astounded to see the size of the "Nutrition Facts" label on >American cans of Coke, or packets of potato chips, for instance. You have to understand American politics to know why those are there. Obviously there's no nutrition in a can of Coke. But the problem is that a few years back it was a fad to get "Natural" everything. During this time a number of natural food companies cme out with soda pop that was based on juice. Of course, their cans of soft drink were 4 times more expensive (on the account of actually having something IN them rather than sugarwater) so the only way they could sell them is to make the argument that their soda was "Healthy" and the Coke and Pepsi's soda was empty calories. So they got together and lobbied the FDA to mandate the nutrition facts label to apply to sodapop as well as other foods. This of course casts the sugarwater vendors in a worse light than the natural soda vendors. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 4: 0: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF7C37B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.137.99.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.137.99]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9BAxg526069; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9BAxde07759; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:59:39 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011035939.W387@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <00ad01c15232$ea21a340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00ad01c15232$ea21a340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:58:37AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:58:37AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: [Too many snips to track them all.] > No, the overpopulation is a result of the disruption of the traditional > way of life in many of these areas. I don't recall reading that > the American Indian had significant overpopulation problems and > they were around for thousands and thousands of years. Mayans and Aztec's may have had some over-population problems in their urban areas. Not sure what that has to do with anything. Traditional ways of life change. Wherever you live, did people live like you 100 years ago? > >Overpopulation also has little to do with the pill, and more to do > >with the fact that in a poor family, children are cheap labour and > >hence regarded as valuable assets; especially sons. > > And why do you think this is? It's because many of these societies were > changed from the nomadic hunter-gatherer/tribal to farmers by ignorant > Europeans. > Most country borders in Africa today were drawn with total disregard for > ancient tribal boundaries, that's why there's been so many civil wars there. > > Most of the do-gooders and social workers in the Third World have exactly > your attitude - overpopulation is either a Good Thing or an Indifferent Thing. > Very few are actually out there preaching and telling people it's wrong to > have 10 children even though the disasterous results of that are evident > all around them. It's a classic "Dilema of the Commons" problem. It's just like energy conservation efforts here in California. It's hard to get one person to turn their air conditioner down. One person turning it down does not make a difference. But if everybody does it... It is economically advantageous for any one family in many of these "third world" regions to have as many children as possible. Just one family having 10 children doesn't make a difference. But if everybody does it... [snip] > Today, we have an array of cancer treatments > >which are still of no help if you were diagnosed just a bit too late. > > Have you ever wondered why the incidence of cancer has skyrocketed in > the last 50 years or so? [snip] > Well, guess what - there's > no OFFICIAL reason for most cancers. Some are obvious, like smoking causes > lung cancer, destroyed ozone causes skin cancer, but most cancer rates have > no obvious reason. I think the reasons are pretty clear. First, we do not have reliable data on historical trends. We don't really know what the incidence in cancer was 200 years ago. We really don't know how much, or if at all, the incendence of cancer is rising. The reason is something we've tocuhed on a lot here already, improvements in medical science. Everybody dies. Everybody dies because something kills them. Medical science can cure a _lot_ of stuff that it used to not be able to cure. One of the things that medical science still as trouble with is cancer. That means more people live longer and have an opportunity to get cancer and get sick from it. 50 years ago, how long was the life expectancy? I'm going to take a completely wild guess 'cause I don't feel like looking it up and say it was one's early sixties, if even that. Now it is somewhere in the seventies? Of all of the cancer cases, how many of them develop in people in the range from mid-sixties to mid-seventies? This is prime time for prostate, breast, colon, and a lot of other relatively common cancers. There are more people living long enough to get cancer. The effect is that when you look at mortality statistics, you'll see more deaths per 100 000 due to cancer than you did 100 years ago. But I have never seen anyone actually normalize the data and take into account that where as 100 years ago, you had large numbers of people dying from scarlet fever, mumps, measles, dysentery, etc., and very few die from these kinds of things today. But if anyone has cites for peer reviewed papers from scientific journals on the topic, I would be greatly interested in seeing a study that accounts for these things. [snip] > There is far too much evidence that many of these so-called "diseases" are > actually natural responses to screwed up lifestyles. I know that people > will tar and feather me for saying this but by gun there's a right way > to live and a wrong way to live. And either way you are going to get sick and die from _something._ People have always died of something. Funny how people keep living longer despite "screwed up" lifestyles. Fresh fruit and vegetables are good for you. High sodium and fat are generally bad. In cold regions of the world before refrigeration or high speed transportation, no one had fresh fruit or vegetables all winter. They often lived off of fatty foods that had been preserved by salting them. I wonder if these people were not constipated from December until March. Obviously, these people should have known better and moved to warmer climates. That would be the "right way" to live. Not that it mattered much. They all died of something more mundane before they lived long enough to develop colon cancer. Human's have been living "screwed up" lifestyles since pre-history. > Freedom must have responsibility and > you don't have the right to stuff your face with McDonalds cheeseburgers > every day of your life until you keel over with a heart attack at age 55 > then expect the rest of us to dump all our tax dollars into funding > research into a new medicine that will dissolve your cholesterol and > allow you to continue stuffing yourself like a pig with both trotters in > the trough. People shouldn't smoke. People should not overeat. People shouldn't eat saturated fats. People shouldn't sit around all day. People shouldn't have multiple sexual partners (and catch diseases). People shouldn't hang glide (you can fall and get hurt). People shouldn't drive cars (you could get in an accident). People shouldn't drink too much alcohol (liver damage, mouth, throat, stomach cancer as well as increased likelyhood of trauma due behavior). People shouldn't ever leave their house (any human or animal contact is risky with respect to disease or one could be attacked). Pretty much _everything_ people like to do has some inherent risks. We are mortal and the world is a risky place. Lot's of people like to do risky things. I don't like McDonalds hamburgers, but I must admit I do occasionally like to have a few drinks and hit the town with some friends. I do other risky things too because I derive great enjoyment of them. Where the balance between the enjoyment a person gets from a behavior against the risk it entails lies is very personal thing. I don't know you, maybe you are really into skydiving. Why should society, via public health costs or increased insurance premiums, pay for your medical bills when you bust your leg on a bad landing? You took the risk. I don't think skydiving is an acceptable risk versus what benefits I would get out of it. Why should I pay? > Only if the emphasis on the medicine is on solving the root of the problem > not alleviating the symptom. Today the entire emphasis in Western medicine > is fixing the symptom, once that's done your free to go back to your > artery-hardening, lung destroying lifestyle if you wish. As long as that's > the attitude, the system is fundamentally screwed up and making it a > public industry isn't going to change much. This is because study after study has shown that changing people's behaviors is a very, very hard thing to do. It is a pretty common assumption that you cannot change a person's behavior. So, what is the medical profession to do? They do not live in a vacuum. Do you really want the medical profession to sequester itself in an ivory tower and make proclamations about how _you_ must behave and what ailments it will and will not treat? No, the medical profession is part of our society and our society wants the medical profession to fix all of our problems without us having to do anything we don't wanna. It's not really just something wrong with Western medicine as it is a problem with what Western society as a whole expects and demands of the medical community. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu cjclark@jhu.edu cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 4:13:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED04F37B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20771; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: correction (Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark) References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <20011010234034.A93727@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Oct 2001 13:13:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20011010234034.A93727@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Rahul Siddharthan said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:35:39: > > knockoffs. Of course, food recipes and clothing designs are > > protected by copyright, and never have been. > Are *not* protected by copyright, I meant. Yes, I believe they are, but the processes they describe aren't, so you can publish a cookbook with recipes you collected from other cookbooks as long as you rewrite them in your own words. OTOH, you can't publish a cookbook that contains the exact same recipes (even rewritten) as one particular other cookbook, as that would violate the original author's (or editor's) compilation copyright. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 4:16:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ranger.argus-systems.com (ranger.argus-systems.com [206.221.232.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7CF37B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dedog.argus-systems.co.uk (host212-140-86-197.host.btclick.com [212.140.86.197]) by ranger.argus-systems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25391 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:16:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fergus@localhost) by dedog.argus-systems.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.1) id f9BBK2301138 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:20:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from fergus) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:20:01 +0100 From: fergus To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011122001.B1028@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <00ad01c15232$ea21a340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011035939.W387@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011011035939.W387@blossom.cjclark.org>; from cristjc@earthlink.net on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:59:39AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Traditional ways of life change. Wherever you live, did people live > like you 100 years ago? if you live in ireland the answer is yes. 0:-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 4:23:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ranger.argus-systems.com (ranger.argus-systems.com [206.221.232.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8FDD37B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dedog.argus-systems.co.uk (host212-140-86-197.host.btclick.com [212.140.86.197]) by ranger.argus-systems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09377 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:23:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fergus@localhost) by dedog.argus-systems.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.1) id f9BBLnQ01156 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:21:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from fergus) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:21:49 +0100 From: fergus To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: correction (Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark) Message-ID: <20011011122149.C1028@dedog.argus-systems.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <20011010234034.A93727@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:13:35PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, I believe they are, but the processes they describe aren't, so > you can publish a cookbook with recipes you collected from other > cookbooks as long as you rewrite them in your own words. > > OTOH, you can't publish a cookbook that contains the exact same > recipes (even rewritten) as one particular other cookbook, as that > would violate the original author's (or editor's) compilation > copyright. it's a beautiful world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 4:32:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB37137B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9BBWLN32594 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:32:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA23856 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:32:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:32:20 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: correction (Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark) Message-ID: <20011011133220.C21489@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <20011010234034.A93727@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:13:35PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Oct 11, 2001 at 13:13:35: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Rahul Siddharthan said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:35:39: > > > knockoffs. Of course, food recipes and clothing designs are > > > protected by copyright, and never have been. > > Are *not* protected by copyright, I meant. > > Yes, I believe they are, but the processes they describe aren't, so > you can publish a cookbook with recipes you collected from other > cookbooks as long as you rewrite them in your own words. That was the point: the dish prepared by the cordon bleu chef is not copyrighted. Whereas, Mickey Mouse is; you can't retell the cartoon story in your own words; you can't even use the Mickey Mouse character. In the context of patents, it's the argument of product patent versus process patent. Countries like India have long allowed process patents on pharmaceuticals (like copyrighting the recipe), but WTO rules mandate product patents (like copyrighting the dish). R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 4:51:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de (moutvdom01.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E6C37B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.20.224.208] (helo=mrvdom01.schlund.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15reMe-0005Sf-00; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:51:00 +0200 Received: from pd90172e8.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.1.114.232]) by mrvdom01.schlund.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15reL6-0008IE-00; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:49:24 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:48:49 +0000 (GMT) From: "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" X-X-Sender: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , , Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , Subject: Use of the UNIX Trademark [was:] Correction In-Reply-To: <20011011133220.C21489@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20011011114022.C10549-100000@big> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Oct 11, 2001 at 13:13:35: > > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > > Rahul Siddharthan said on Oct 10, 2001 at 23:35:39: > > > > knockoffs. Of course, food recipes and clothing designs are > > > > protected by copyright, and never have been. > > > Are *not* protected by copyright, I meant. > > > > Yes, I believe they are, but the processes they describe aren't, so > > you can publish a cookbook with recipes you collected from other > > cookbooks as long as you rewrite them in your own words. > > That was the point: the dish prepared by the cordon bleu chef is not > copyrighted. Whereas, Mickey Mouse is; you can't retell the cartoon > story in your own words; you can't even use the Mickey Mouse > character. > > In the context of patents, it's the argument of product patent versus > process patent. Countries like India have long allowed process > patents on pharmaceuticals (like copyrighting the recipe), but WTO > rules mandate product patents (like copyrighting the dish). So here we really returned to our UN*X-problem. Ted means the process of programming when he talks about UNIX, TOG means a product-specification. And the latter is patented. Uli. ************************************ * P. U. Kruppa - Wuppertal * * Germany * * www.pukruppa.de www.2000d.de * ************************************ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 6:11:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A690837B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15rfcV-0005Q5-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:11:27 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f9BDBRU06521 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:11:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:11:27 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Can we learn from this article? Message-ID: <20011011141126.B6386@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This article, http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/14035.html from OSOpinion, expresses the concern that a huge opportunity was missed by not advancing the free Unixen in the gap between Win2k and XP. Now that XP has headless server control and other features that make it more condusive, what is the possibility that IT managers will go with XP instead of a non-MS server OS? Will performance matter at that point? Or will security be the up-and-coming burning issue for XP? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 6:16: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5842F37B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9BDFqN46419 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:15:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA28476 ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:15:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:15:52 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011151552.B26149@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 02:05:16AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A small point, but: Terry Lambert said on Oct 11, 2001 at 02:05:16: > > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, > > Actually, we have a vaccine. References? Certainly, there isn't one in general use. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 6:23:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5F237B403 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id B3D3C17BC1; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC8B15CC5; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:23:49 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Brad Knowles Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > > I've used such cylinders in Oxyacetylene cutting torches, and > brazing, but I don't recall them ever being able to generate enough > heat to do proper welding. When I did welding, I used standard arc Um, if you can something hot enough to melt it, which is how gas torches work, you can weld with it. You do use different torch, though. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 6:39:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072D637B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 1B1C017BC1; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F8415CC5; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:39:28 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: <20011011151552.B26149@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > A small point, but: > > Terry Lambert said on Oct 11, 2001 at 02:05:16: > > > > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, > > > > Actually, we have a vaccine. > > References? > Certainly, there isn't one in general use. There are no currently approved vaccines for malaria, though treatment with irradiated malaria sporozoites does provide complete protection. This isn't a generally useful technique, but it is used for reseachers and the like. There is quite a bit of research into a maleria vaccine underway, with several potential vaccines in field trials. Incidently, some of the work is funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 7:10:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CFCE37B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33350 invoked by uid 100); 11 Oct 2001 14:10:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15301.43118.69706.571120@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:10:54 -0500 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > One thing people forget about patents is that they create a permanent record > of a process or device. While the most spectacular patents (new drugs, etc.) > get plenty of attention in various medical journals and such, the majority of > patents > are granted for small little things, for example a hand tool. These new > inventions generally never see wide distribution and if there wasn't ever a > patent on them, the invention might disappear forever. With a patent, someone > 20 or 30 years later that needs a particular thing can do a patent search and > see > if anyone has ever manufactured an invention that solves what they need to do, > and if they find an expired patent on an invention they can use the contact > info > to perhaps dig up a set of plans for it. This is sort of like open source for mechanical devices. A client of mine had an air rifle that had been orphaned - it being nearly 40 years old. He really liked the thing, and was rather upset when it broke and he found out that nobody would repair it. Looking into new guns made the problem worse, as he considered them both overpriced and lower quality. I got involved to do a patent search for him, and lo and behold we turned up the original patent for the thing - including plans. This made it possible for him to repair it himself. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 9:30:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52A637B406 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9BGTmE22348; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:48 +0200 (CEST) To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <1002817787.3bc5c8fbddbfd@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, "Crist J. Clark" , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.171.152 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > > Take one of the most interesting scientific > > > and engineering efforts of the century, the Manhattan Project. That > > > research took place amongst a _very_ small but able scientific > > > community sequestered in the desert. It was quite a while for that to > > > be shared with the world at large; we all know why. Same story for the > > > hydrogen bomb or any other technology developments placed under the > > > cover of national security. The idea that all information "needs to be > > > free" is a rather naive one. > > > > I would say yes. And no. Essentially because Science != technology. > > > > Nuclear reactions (fission & fusion) are described in many Physics books. > > _Understanding_ or _knowing_ Science does NOT necessarily imply eg having > > the > > technology to produce a fission or H bomb. > Security through obscurity never works. > It is relatively trivial to build such devices; the book: > The Curve of Binding Energy > John A. McPhee > Noonday Press > ISBN: 0374515980 > gives sufficient information to calculate the neutron numbers, > and therefore the critical mass, for any radioactive material > that is capable of fission. Science != technology. Today primary school pupils know about the equivalence of matter end energy. Secondary school pupil/student [may] know about critical masses for nuclear reactions. Better yet, some of this information is written in [more or less] scientific encyclopedias (/me having read those and other data at about 9/10). Obscurantism is NO solution. Talebans anyone? "Dangerous" technologies, that is, the precise details of how to _work_ eg plutonium to make a bomb out of it, *should* be kept secret. Alas, this is not always possible, but they should. > The way we control such things is to control the availability > of the critical raw materials very, very carefully. One of > the reasons we have been so careful to court Pakistan and > Uzbekistan must be that they are Afghanistan's neighbors, and > are both members of "the nuclear club". Yup. I had left out one of the most important details. --Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 10: 4:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 818EC37B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 37958 invoked by uid 100); 11 Oct 2001 17:04:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15301.53544.902022.451805@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:04:40 -0500 To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, "Crist J. Clark" , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: <1002817787.3bc5c8fbddbfd@webmail.neomedia.it> References: <1002817787.3bc5c8fbddbfd@webmail.neomedia.it> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta types: > > gives sufficient information to calculate the neutron numbers, > > and therefore the critical mass, for any radioactive material > > that is capable of fission. > > Obscurantism is NO solution. Talebans anyone? > > "Dangerous" technologies, that is, the precise details of how to _work_ eg > plutonium to make a bomb out of it, *should* be kept secret. Alas, this is > not always possible, but they should. All the technological information required to build an atomic bomb were publicly available back in the '70s. A Princeton student did a research paper for Dr. Gerard K. O'Neil - better known as a designer and proponent of O'Neil colonies - at that time. The student wrote a book entitled "The Mushroom Kid", or something like that. Probably out of print. > > The way we control such things is to control the availability > > of the critical raw materials very, very carefully. One of > > the reasons we have been so careful to court Pakistan and > > Uzbekistan must be that they are Afghanistan's neighbors, and > > are both members of "the nuclear club". The process for creating the critical raw materials is also publicly available. Staging a raid on a nuclear plant to obtain them is either less expensive - if you build a proper lab - or less dangerous - if you don't build a proper lab. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 11:51:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8258A37B407 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA87122; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:49:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:49:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: j mckitrick Cc: Subject: Re: Can we learn from this article? In-Reply-To: <20011011141126.B6386@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > This article, > > http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/14035.html > > from OSOpinion, expresses the concern that a huge opportunity was missed > by not advancing the free Unixen in the gap between Win2k and XP. Now > that XP has headless server control and other features that make it more > condusive, what is the possibility that IT managers will go with XP > instead of a non-MS server OS? Will performance matter at that point? > Or will security be the up-and-coming burning issue for XP? Huh? XP is not a server operating system, and MS is not marketing it as such. Win2K is still their "server OS". The only opportunity that might have been "missed" by anyone is advancing the Open Source OSes as desktop operating systems. Most people already see them as excellent server operating systems. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 12:38:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B34037B405 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.11.1/8.11.0) id f9BJc7Z52415 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:38:07 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: CVS afflicted Message-ID: <20011011123807.A52354@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ever start reading something on a web page and then realize that you're completely misunderstanding it? > I have had many problems using computers. I suffer very much from CVS. ... > Welcome to the group of CVS afflicted. There's 'tons' of us. The > best individual resolutions generally come from a fairly complete > assessment of a variety of factors which contribute to your particular > situation. http://www.benedict-optical.com/askthelab.html -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 14:28:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB5E37B401 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a180.otenet.gr [212.205.215.180]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9BLSRs28089; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:28:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9BKsXk15132; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:54:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:54:32 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: "Nasrudin, Wali M" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix Account Message-ID: <20011011235432.D13476@hades.hell.gr> References: <004201c15210$32c4d7c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <004201c15210$32c4d7c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-GPG-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-URL: http://labs.gr/~charon/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Nasrudin, Wali M wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I was wondering how I could use FreeBSD without having it as an OS > > on my laptop. For instance I would like to telnet and work with a > > Unix account. > > you can also get a free shell account here: > > http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/os/#bsd Glad that someone brought up Testdrive before I did. Without being affiliated to Compaq in any way, and fearing that I might sound a bit off topic for -questions (this is why I moved this thread to -chat), I feel that I have to add my two cents here. I was thinking of trying out OpenBSD and NetBSD about a year or so ago. Instead of installing them and going through the tedious process of configuring them to my preferences, I thought of trying out Compaq's testdrive. Very impressive, and I did find all I was looking for (mostly the documentation that comes with the base-system). What was very nice of them though is that they did ask what my opinion was, if I had found Testdrive useful, what I wanted to use it for in the first place, and if I thought that trying it out had met my requirements. This was done a few months after I had stopped using my account there, in an email message polite in tone, that did *not* include any kind of Compaq advertisements. No spam, no nothing. Very nice of them :-) I usually do not reply to messases that have even the slightest traces of spam. This time though I took the time to fill the standard questions they had posted, and write a nice little summary of what, how, when and why I had used their Testdrive program. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 15:48:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5BC37B408 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05268BCF7 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22032 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:48:26 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9BMlvP49508; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 11 Oct 2001 15:47:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6xzo6xssir.o6x@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > I've used such cylinders in Oxyacetylene cutting torches, and > brazing, but I don't recall them ever being able to generate > enough heat to do proper welding. I think enough heat is not the problem, but things like controllability and impurities (eg, Oxygen, air) in the weld are the main reason for using other technologies for common welding tasks. Also, I'll bet a tank of compressed air is a lot cheaper than one of either Oxygen or Nitrogen. Anyone know if highly compressed air is a dangerous fire hazard along the lines of Oxygen (but less so, of course)? Of course, in the application discussed, it would be reduced in pressure very near the tank to the normal levels of the tool being powered. Also, does anyone know if different gases work better than others (ignoring dangerousness) because of their different compressibilites? (I'm not even sure what that means, but I know I can get more power out of squeezed rubber than squeezed steel.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 17:23:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from a.mx.canon.com.au (bergeron.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5227E37B407 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by a.mx.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EF033924 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:23:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CAD8B46 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:05:13 +1000 (EST) Received: by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix, from userid 683) id E4B52326DF; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:23:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FA5326DA for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:23:15 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:23:15 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: <3BC5592C.1E8734F6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Most computer scientst are opposed to copyright and patents > as they are applied to software because of the duration; they > are not necessarily opposed to the idea itself. Yes, I'm aware > of Donald Knuth's state postion; I'm also aware that he owes > us 5 more books, which he has not written while futzing around > with TeX. 8-p. > > Here is a good article (Australian, even): > > http://www.rhyme.com.au/gd/patents.html > Bah, you're talking about the country that allows patents for a "circular transportation facilitation device" http://it.mycareer.com.au/news/2001/07/03/FFXQ7G9HJOC.html Iain (And the 2001 Ig Nobel Prize for Technology) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 21: 5:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A302337B408 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.129.110.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.129.110]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9C44wd12438; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9C44Y502451; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:04:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:04:26 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011011210426.D293@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <6xzo6xssir.o6x@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <6xzo6xssir.o6x@localhost.localdomain>; from swear@blarg.net on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:47:56PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:47:56PM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > > I've used such cylinders in Oxyacetylene cutting torches, and > > brazing, but I don't recall them ever being able to generate > > enough heat to do proper welding. > > I think enough heat is not the problem, but things like controllability > and impurities (eg, Oxygen, air) in the weld are the main reason for > using other technologies for common welding tasks. > > Also, I'll bet a tank of compressed air is a lot cheaper than one of > either Oxygen or Nitrogen. I've never seen a commerial cylinder of air. I don't know if you can buy one. I would think that for the vast majority of applications it is cheaper to buy an air compressor than to buy cylinders of air. > Anyone know if highly compressed air is > a dangerous fire hazard along the lines of Oxygen (but less so, of > course)? Air is about 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen. When you compress it, it is about 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, the concentrations don't change. Making some approximations, the reactivity of the gas is driven by the partial pressure of oxygen. The partial pressure of oxygen in air is about 1/5 of that in pure oxygen. Compressed air is about "five times" less reactive than pure oxygen, whatever that means. > Also, does anyone know if different gases work better than others > (ignoring dangerousness) because of their different compressibilites? > (I'm not even sure what that means, but I know I can get more power > out of squeezed rubber than squeezed steel.) That probably is not going to drive the choice. If you want to go buy a cylinder of gas for this use, nitrogen is ideal. It's cheap, non-flammable, non-toxic, and other properties are good for this. Oxygen is more expensive and explosive. Carbon dioxide is toxic and has a big temperature drop when throttled, you can get ice. Helium, argon or another noble gas is great but way more expensive. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 11 21:23:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9017837B40A for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 0CEA617BC1; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DE215CC5; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:23:49 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: <6xzo6xssir.o6x@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Oct 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > > I've used such cylinders in Oxyacetylene cutting torches, and > > brazing, but I don't recall them ever being able to generate > > enough heat to do proper welding. > > I think enough heat is not the problem, but things like controllability > and impurities (eg, Oxygen, air) in the weld are the main reason for > using other technologies for common welding tasks. Gas welding takes more skill than most of hte other common forms. It's harder to mechanize, which is a minus in some applications. It's still pretty commonly used. the equipment required is cheap, and can easily be made to weld materials that would b e very expensive to weld with electrical methods. It also doesn't require power, which is a big plus in some places. The same equipment can support welding, cutting, brazing, so ldering and more, which means that if you have reason to want only one set of kit, it's the way to go. > > Also, I'll bet a tank of compressed air is a lot cheaper than one of > either Oxygen or Nitrogen. Anyone know if highly compressed air is > a dangerous fire hazard along the lines of Oxygen (but less so, of > course)? Of course, in the application discussed, it would be reduced > in pressure very near the tank to the normal levels of the tool being > powered. Compressed nitorgten is cheap. the last time I had a cylinder filled, it was something like $20 for a 5 foot toll canister. Compressed air wouldn't be a whole lot less expensive, and you'd have to worry about things like moisture and the ability to suport fire. While compressed air wouold only be about 18% oxygen, that's enough to suppot a fire. > > Also, does anyone know if different gases work better than others > (ignoring dangerousness) because of their different compressibilites? > (I'm not even sure what that means, but I know I can get more power > out of squeezed rubber than squeezed steel.) Well, some gases have different freezing points. A problem with compressed co2 systems is they have a tendency to form dry ice when the gase is released quickly. Nitrogen and oxygen don't do that, but oxygen is a fire hazard. oil will combust spontaniously in the precense of high preessure oxyhgen. Nitrogen is mostly the choice for compressed gas where you don't need some special property. It's relativly inert, it's cheap, theers little or no enviormental impact to releasing it (the atmosphere is abnout 78% N2, after all). > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 0:10:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 65A6F37B401; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:10:23 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Can we learn from this article? Message-ID: <20011012001023.A96202@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011011141126.B6386@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011011141126.B6386@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 02:11:27PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/14035.html > > from OSOpinion, expresses the concern that a huge opportunity was missed > by not advancing the free Unixen in the gap between Win2k and XP. Now > that XP has headless server control and other features that make it more > condusive, what is the possibility that IT managers will go with XP > instead of a non-MS server OS? Will performance matter at that point? > Or will security be the up-and-coming burning issue for XP? They've got to be kidding. I've hear that osopinion.com approaches slashdot levels of idiocy at times, but this one is over the line. What's with the claim that people are "wasting their time arguing over kde and gnome"? In the free software world, the general low-clue pointy-hair managers do not exist. So, instead of them, we get the troll kiddies, the ones that whine all day about this being better than that. What difference does it make? It's not like either of them ever write any useful code. The claim that win32 will now stomp the unix world because it has serial console support and some shell tools is pathetic as well. Since when does just catching up to the rest of the world make one superior? Next on amazon.com: "I'm A Massive Tool", by Adam Barr. Admittedly, I enjoy the occasional piece of anti-linux propaganda, but this article is just useless. As for the notion of learning something from it, the only lesson here is that some people are best ignored. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 2:28:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FDB37B401 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f9C9QBT04746; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Salvo Bartolotta" , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , Subject: RE: Use of the UNIX Trademark Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:26:08 -0700 Message-ID: <002501c152ff$ec9dfec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011011035939.W387@blossom.cjclark.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Crist J. Clark [mailto:cristjc@earthlink.net] >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:00 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Rahul Siddharthan; Salvo Bartolotta; P. U. (Uli) Kruppa; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark >> Most of the do-gooders and social workers in the Third World have exactly >> your attitude - overpopulation is either a Good Thing or an >Indifferent Thing. >> Very few are actually out there preaching and telling people it's wrong to >> have 10 children even though the disasterous results of that are evident >> all around them. > >It's a classic "Dilema of the Commons" problem. It's just like energy >conservation efforts here in California. It's hard to get one person >to turn their air conditioner down. One person turning it down does >not make a difference. But if everybody does it... It is economically >advantageous for any one family in many of these "third world" regions >to have as many children as possible. Just one family having 10 >children doesn't make a difference. But if everybody does it... > I don't believe in Dilemma of the Commons. If it were true then FreeBSD would have never come out of the lab and there would be no growth and change. As far as turning down A/C in California - well you can get them all to do it by starting one person at a time. And the state bureaucracies and offices are a good place to start - have they switched OFF their A/C units and started wearing shorts and tee shirts to work? I doubt it. It may be economically advantageous to do something but people don't do things because they are economically advantageous, they are a lot more complicated than that. If economics ruled then people would not purchase junk food (because it's cheaper to buy the stuff and cook it yourself) they would not purchase the Latest Fashions in clothing (because the plain-jane clothing that's basic is always cheaper and works just as well) they would not fight to get into the gated communities (because there's no evidence that gating a community prevents home burglaries) they would not do many of the stupid and senseless things that people do that are economically rediculous. Instead, marketing departments in corporations worldwide have proven time and again that it's perfectly possible to sway the majority of people over to buying your product, religious leaders the world over have shown that it's perfectly possible to brainwash the majority of a population, nation-state leaders have shown time and again that it's perfectly possible to get the whole country up in patriotic ferver (as they are doing now in the US) The overpopulation problem is simply that most people are squeamish about sex and children and all that, and don't want to talk about it, and few people are bold enough to actually get out there and talk about it, and those that do are people like Dr. Ruth that people like because they can consider her a fruitcake and safely laugh at her, or they are the Pope who is saying exactly the worst possible thing that they can say. Yet, today in this country it's VERY popular to talk about "limiting growth" in the context of "we aren't going to allow them to build any more houses in our city because the roads are becoming too congested" as if there's anyplace else to go for the millions of additional people we are all creating every year. When are these stupid "no-growth" advocates going to speak honestly and start advocating birth control because too many people are getting pregnant and having babies. That's the real solution to "no-growth" > >> There is far too much evidence that many of these so-called "diseases" are >> actually natural responses to screwed up lifestyles. I know that people >> will tar and feather me for saying this but by gun there's a right way >> to live and a wrong way to live. > >And either way you are going to get sick and die from _something._ >People have always died of something. Funny how people keep living >longer despite "screwed up" lifestyles. Fresh fruit and vegetables are >good for you. High sodium and fat are generally bad. In cold regions >of the world before refrigeration or high speed transportation, no one >had fresh fruit or vegetables all winter. They often lived off of >fatty foods that had been preserved by salting them. I wonder if these >people were not constipated from December until March. Obviously, >these people should have known better and moved to warmer >climates. That would be the "right way" to live. Not that it mattered >much. They all died of something more mundane before they lived long >enough to develop colon cancer. Human's have been living "screwed up" >lifestyles since pre-history. > Most of them exercised a lot more than people do today which greatly minimized problems with eating a lot of fatty foods, and also helped a lot more things too. 100 years ago a lot more people were farmers and you have to be pretty physically fit to farm. If you look at the total lifestyle, the fact that people were exercising a lot more back then was far more important than the food they ate. Because of that they were "living right" Today, since not a lot of people exercise, the importance of eating right is far greater. >> Freedom must have responsibility and >> you don't have the right to stuff your face with McDonalds cheeseburgers >> every day of your life until you keel over with a heart attack at age 55 >> then expect the rest of us to dump all our tax dollars into funding >> research into a new medicine that will dissolve your cholesterol and >> allow you to continue stuffing yourself like a pig with both trotters in >> the trough. > >People shouldn't smoke. People should not overeat. People shouldn't >eat saturated fats. People shouldn't sit around all day. People >shouldn't have multiple sexual partners (and catch diseases). People >shouldn't hang glide (you can fall and get hurt). People shouldn't >drive cars (you could get in an accident). People shouldn't drink too >much alcohol (liver damage, mouth, throat, stomach cancer as well as >increased likelyhood of trauma due behavior). People shouldn't ever >leave their house (any human or animal contact is risky with respect >to disease or one could be attacked). > This is a gross simplification. There's such a thing as reasonable risk and unreasonable risk. Most people drive cars and have to go outside their houses and so doing those things is a reasonable risk - nobody is going to blame you for getting in an accident while your minding your own business commuting to work or running errands to the grocery store. But, driving around in excess of the speed limit late at night in the dark during a rainstorm - well if you get in an accident, I'm sorry but I won't have a lot of sympathy for you unless you have a darn good reason for being out there. If your just screwing around and drunk to boot then, you can bleed to death for all I care and if you do it will make the roads safer for all the rest of us. And, if your hang gliding during the day with solid equipment and good training under your belt, well then while I'd say the risk is a bit higher, it's not that much higher. However if your hang gliding with broken equipment during a tornado and have no helmet on - well then your taking unreasonable risk. I've had plenty of experience with this kind of argument because I used to ride a motorcycle. I've heard all the anti-helmet arguments and they are all full of crap. Motorcycling is no less safe than driving a car if you are helmeted, full leathers, and wearing body armor, and your bike is good and your experienced. I did it for 5 years as my ONLY means of transport and I commuted 20 miles every day on the busiest freeway in the state, 5 days a week, rain or shine. I greatly object to people that use your risk logic because it looks purely at averages. This ranks motorcycling as risky because there's a percentage of bikers out there that insist on riding around in a t-shirt and bandanna, and because they keep pasting the oatmeal that they use for brains all over the road, it screws up the average for the rest of us that ride responsibly. >Pretty much _everything_ people like to do has some inherent >risks. We are mortal and the world is a risky place. Lot's of people >like to do risky things. You don't seem to allow that there's behaviors that are easy to make more risky by idiots. Driving is considered more risky than staying at home, because it's a lot easier for the idiot to get in a car and do things that are extremely risky. But that doesen't make driving inherently more risky, no more than hang gliding if it's done right. >I don't like McDonalds hamburgers, but I must >admit I do occasionally like to have a few drinks and hit the town >with some friends. I do other risky things too because I derive great >enjoyment of them. You enjoy driving drunk? Speeding? hang gliding without a helmet? having unprotected sex with prostitutes? If your not doing stuff like this or equally irresponsible stuff then don't kid yourself - your not taking real risks. Being drunk and being shuttled between bars by non-drinking designated drivers is not taking risks, but I suppose that it impresses you enough so you can pretend that your doing something risky. >Where the balance between the enjoyment a person >gets from a behavior against the risk it entails lies is very personal >thing. I don't know you, maybe you are really into skydiving. Why >should society, via public health costs or increased insurance >premiums, pay for your medical bills when you bust your leg on a bad >landing? You took the risk. I don't think skydiving is an acceptable >risk versus what benefits I would get out of it. Why should I pay? > Because skydiving is mo more risky than driving IF it's properly done. The problem is that it's easier to screw up skydiving than it is to screw up driving, so more people screw it up and thus the actuarial tables show it to be more risky. But, there's professional sky divers that spend 20 years diving and they don't die as a result. >> Only if the emphasis on the medicine is on solving the root of the problem >> not alleviating the symptom. Today the entire emphasis in Western medicine >> is fixing the symptom, once that's done your free to go back to your >> artery-hardening, lung destroying lifestyle if you wish. As long as that's >> the attitude, the system is fundamentally screwed up and making it a >> public industry isn't going to change much. > >This is because study after study has shown that changing people's >behaviors is a very, very hard thing to do. It is a pretty common >assumption that you cannot change a person's behavior. Every marketing person would tell you you are wrong, that they are successful in changing people's behavior all the time. Even here we are getting more people to change their behavior and use FreeBSD and stop using Microsoft all the time. >So, what is the >medical profession to do? They do not live in a vacuum. Do you really >want the medical profession to sequester itself in an ivory tower and >make proclamations about how _you_ must behave and what ailments it >will and will not treat? No, the medical profession is part of our >society and our society wants the medical profession to fix all of our >problems without us having to do anything we don't wanna. It's not >really just something wrong with Western medicine as it is a problem >with what Western society as a whole expects and demands of the >medical community. This may be true but it's also true that medical money and medical research personnel are not infinite. Regardless of what the public thinks, or wants to think, decisions are made all the time as to what research is to be funded and what isn't. The medical community is like any other business. The vast majority of doctors are not researchers, and can only solve problems that the medical research community has figured out. Indeed, most doctors take significant risks when deviating from established treatment regimens, as it opens them up to malpractice lawsuits. In short, most doctors are just as much consumers of new medical advances as patients are. As far as deciding WHO to treat with these established medical procedures, well in this country private enterprise and the insurance industry determine that. The hypothetical question your posing is really "what diseases and sicknesses that currently have no established regimens of successful treatment do we want the medical profession to work on curing?" This is the heart of my argument. I submit that when making decisions as to where to allocate medical researchers and dollars that whether the sickness or disease is self-caused should be a significant factor in the decision. It's not fair to spend billions on AIDS research when AIDS is largely preventable, instead of spending those billions on Alzheimers or Parkinson's research, which isn't preventable. (so far as we know) Not to mention that there's already willing billions in the private sector that people would spend on AIDS. When are we going to see Live-Alzheimers concerts?!? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 5:44:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2CA37B401; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15s1fn-000O6V-00; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:44:19 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f9CCiI417610; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:44:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:44:17 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Eric Melville Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Can we learn from this article? Message-ID: <20011012134417.A17575@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011011141126.B6386@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011012001023.A96202@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20011012001023.A96202@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@freebsd.org on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:10:23AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:10:23AM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: | and gnome"? In the free software world, the general low-clue pointy-hair | managers do not exist. So, instead of them, we get the troll kiddies, the | ones that whine all day about this being better than that. What difference | does it make? It's not like either of them ever write any useful code. Well, that's true. One of the arguments made on this list has been that the lack of direction and true leadership has led to a lot of duplication of effort, and re-invention of the wheel. Everyone likes to write new desktops, video/sound drivers, and ICQ clients because the result is tangible, visible, and demand can be stirred up. But try getting a volunteer programmer to start on a new circuit design program, and watch it never get off the ground. | The claim that win32 will now stomp the unix world because it has serial | console support and some shell tools is pathetic as well. Since when does | just catching up to the rest of the world make one superior? Combine perceived progress with monopoly power, and you have a potent combination. And don't forget the FUD. | Next on amazon.com: "I'm A Massive Tool", by Adam Barr. LOL! jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 8:11:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B0137B40B for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BAF4BD26 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13512 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:11:47 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9CFBD150203; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <6xzo6xssir.o6x@localhost.localdomain> <20011011210426.D293@blossom.cjclark.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 12 Oct 2001 08:11:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20011011210426.D293@blossom.cjclark.org> Message-ID: Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:47:56PM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > Also, I'll bet a tank of compressed air is a lot cheaper than one of > > either Oxygen or Nitrogen. > > I've never seen a commerial cylinder of air. I don't know if you can > buy one. I would think that for the vast majority of applications it > is cheaper to buy an air compressor than to buy cylinders of air. I'm sure that you can buy nearly any gas you want, but maybe its uncommon need outside the SCUBA field would make it no cheaper than O & N. I do remember seeing hugh tanks of liquified air that someone preferred to an air compressor. > > Anyone know if highly compressed air is > > a dangerous fire hazard along the lines of Oxygen (but less so, of > > course)? > > Air is about 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen. When you compress it, it is > about 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, the concentrations don't > change. Making some approximations, the reactivity of the gas is > driven by the partial pressure of oxygen. The partial pressure of > oxygen in air is about 1/5 of that in pure oxygen. Compressed air is > about "five times" less reactive than pure oxygen, whatever that > means. I guess it means that compressed air is a dangerous fire hazard, but less so, at the same pressure. If delivered at 5 times the pressure of pure oxygen it delivers the same amount of oxygen, but will still be less dangerous because of the extinguishing/smothering effect of the other gases (mostly nitrogen). This dangerousness of this will be very rapidly decreased with increasing separation of the combustion and the delivery nozzle. I suppose that this latter effect results in compressed air not having a reputation as a fire hazard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 9:14:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3145037B405 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 654 invoked by uid 100); 12 Oct 2001 16:13:58 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15303.5830.595302.430495@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:13:58 -0500 To: "Louis A. Mamakos" , chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: Makoto MATSUSHITA , stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD 4.4 CDROM subscriptions - who's doing what? In-Reply-To: <200110121424.f9CEOfb71925@whizzo.transsys.com> References: <200110120341.f9C3f0b68334@whizzo.transsys.com> <20011012131017L.matusita@matatabi.or.jp> <200110121424.f9CEOfb71925@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Replies have been pointed to -chat. Louis A. Mamakos types: > That's fine, except that I gave my credit card number to Walnut Creek > who was acquired by BSDI, then acquired by Wind River. I have a business > relationship with them, and I don't look kindly on them disclosing > my credit card information to third parties. If they wish to use > someone else to act as the fulfillment agent to ship the order, it's > up to them. But I'm still Wind River's customer and expect them to > keep this sensitive information confidential and not disclose it to third > parties. I have higher expectations than that. I expect that they won't give my CC number to anyone who doesn't have something to do with collecting the money, no matter *who* they work for. I really don't care if they contract all their accounting out to some other company, that's their decision. I've already trusted their judgement about who in their company they let see the credit card number; I see no reason not to trust their judgement about the company they choose to handle the transaction. My only problem with this one is that they are terminating the business relationship. That makes me worry that they might not have take appropriate care in their choice. > Oh well, fortunatly my credit card expired. But vendors doing business > over the internet and using credit cards for payment should be very > sensitive to this issue. They aren't. I've had internet orders placed at company 1, shipped from company 2, and the cc account lists company 3. The internet makes doing business this way easier for businesses as well as consumers. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 10:19:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D5037B401; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15s5xc-0001Lj-0B; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:19:11 +0000 Received: from pain (pain.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.3]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 07E4BF784; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:18:38 +0100 (BST) From: "Si" To: Cc: Subject: Mailing Lists Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:18:37 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi There, Has anyone else experienced the following :- I was subscribed to chat, hackers, ipfw, isp, jobs, security and advocacy but have not received any mails on the above lists since ~24th Sept 2001. It seems mails have just plain stopped coming here, I haven't noticed any warnings incoming but tbh haven't been paying a great deal of attention. Yours Just wondering, Si. PS. Could you cc mail to me as I'm currently re-subbing to the above lists ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 11: 1:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3567A37B40A for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.139.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.139.200] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15s6bs-0001ov-00; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:00:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC72FF4.83203EEE@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:01:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> <20011011114819.B17422@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > IBM is doing that for computer/technology reasons, not for medical > research. All leading-edge companies do it, to show what they're > capable of; IBM's last effort was a chess-playing machine which has no > conceivable commercial or social benefit. If Blue Gene actually > recovers an enzyme structure which would be useful medically, I doubt > IBM would get the patent for it, but you know more than me about that, > I'm sure. The commercial reason is that the protein folding problem is the number one problem facing medicine at this point, and it has broad applicatoin, if cracked. The application would be to create any protein you want to create, at a greatly reduced cost. Do not think that there will not be money in it for whoever cracks the problem. And as a matter of fact, I do know a lot about that, but it's despite, not because, of my former association with IBM: the protein folding problem was involved in no less than three of the well over 200 intellectual property exclusions that were listed in my employment contract with IBM (so was the "new" polarization division multiplexing that those German scientists "invented" the other day, according to slashdot: I still have the equipment and the trophy I won for doing that when I was 13 years old for my Jr. High School science fair project). > > Most of the U.S. railway system has, and remains, privatized. > > I said "successfully". Would you call the US railway system > "successful"? Yes. It has been able to help out many countries, every time they were in need, whenever their railway infrastructure was damaged. It moves incredible masses of freight on a daily basis. I can get you a tour of a Union Pacific facility, if you need this fact brought home, or I have contacts to let you spend a working day hanging out at the Central Utah Railroad (we would have to arrange to be in Utah at the same time as another person, but it's manageable). > It's a shambles, and much of the country is not covered at > all. The British railway system too was privatised 10 years > ago, and it was disastrous; the controlling company, Railtrack, > collapsed very recently. For a good working railway system, > try France. Even India has a good solid railway, which doesn't > have much frills and is grossly overstressed, but still does > its job. I think you are mixing passenger railway with freight railway, and concluding because people don't like passenger rail service in the U.S. more than they like getting there quickly by plane, or having daily control over their own schedules (how many dates would you be able to have on the spur of the moment, if you were required to take a relatively slow train home before you could get in your car and drive to the date location?). > > FedEx has been explicitly prohibited from carring ordinary > > letters, since it was less expensive than the alternative, > > the government granted monopoly of the U.S. Postal Service. > > I doubt very much FedEx would be less expensive. I know that > in India many smaller courier services are less expensive than > the Government's "speed post" (not FedEx or DHL, though, they're > much more expensive); but none of them even approach the price > point of ordinary post; I don't think they're forbidden from > doing so, it's just not cost-effective for them to deliver to > remote places all over the country. The number one cash cow for the U.S.P.S. is the postcard and personal letter business. It was not just FedEx that was prohibited from competing in this space, it was _all_ freight carriers. Almost no freight in the U.S. goes by U.S.P.S. these days: they have almost completely lost the freight market. Or from another angle: it wouldn't be prohibited, if the U.S.P.S. agreed with you about them not being able to compete on a cost basis. It's not surprising to me that FedEx and DHL, whose main claim to market share in India is that they are able to send and deliver internationally, would be more expensive. Human intensive labor is incredibly cheap in India, for the old and obvious economic reasons. > In France, too, FedEx and other couriers are more expensive > than the French post's "Chronopost". Ordinary letters within > France cost three francs, or around 40 cents; I doubt any > courier company could approach that price point. You're wrong. If the postal system were not a state monopoly in most countries, it would be easy to compete on purely economic terms, using more modern automation than that used by them. > I don't know what the USPS charges for ordinary letters. > Perhaps the government granted monopoly of the USPS is > merely an inefficient one? It is, but it's cheaper than France for a letter. For a post card, we are talking 20 cents. For first class, which is generally one day delivery anywhere in the U.S., we are talking 39 cents. The majority of the money going into the U.S.P.S. is used to subsidize bulk mail. In the 19th century, and early in the 20th, this was newspapers; more recently, it's advertisements that have no other content. But the bread and butter is person to person communications. There is a nice "First Monday" article on this and other spedning concentrated on person to person communications; for example, from the article, there is more spent on personal (not business) telephone calls in the U.S. per year than the U.S. itself spends on national defense. > > Not patentable: herbs can not be patented; this is why so > > much funded research ignores them entirely: no return on > > investment for investigating them. > > You would know about this example if you were from India, or read the > Indian press, where it has been a major issue for a long time. It is > not the only case; there is a huge catalogue of traditional herbs > whose healing properties have been patented. > > Read > http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/tur-cn.htm > http://www.rediff.com/news/aug/23tur.htm > > The turmeric patents were rejected, but only after protracted > litigation, which most developing countries can ill afford. Other > patents still exist. Developing countries can (and do) simply ignore patents. This seems to be an issue that's really a problem with the WTO, and with India's system, in particular. The U.S. patent office actually worked: it rejected the patent. While I agree that there are assinine abuses of the U.S. patent system, this case was clearly an attempt by people who knew something as a result of regional common knowledge trying to cash in on that knowledge, to the detriment of everyone else. > > > Then the countries most affected by this have to go through > > > expensive and time-consuming litigation to try and overthrow > > > the patent. > > > > That's ridiculous. > > See the above links, again. For more links, just do a search on > google, for example, for "turmeric patent" or "neem patent". It's ridiculous in that countries do not have to overthrow such patents, not because of the process involved in doing that. > > Realize, also, that those countries have the same vested > > interest in finding treatment protocols which never actually > > cure the disease, that the U.S. is claimed to have. > > Realize, also, that your knowledge of "those countries" is extremely > limited and gleaned from a very selective reading. I have averaged a book a day for the last 30 years; I rather doubt my reading is as selective as yours. In any case, I was referring to the financial interest of the countries, like the U.S. and India, which stand to make a much larger amount of money from AIDS treatments than they would, were they to actually cure the disease. India did not approach AIDS drug shipments to Africa as the purely humanitarian endeavor that they claimed: they were making profit, which was less than the profit made by the U.S. companies for the same drugs, and it was a pure case of economic warfare between the pharmaceuticals industries in both countries trying to maintain ownership of a market that they have no real interest in seeing disappear through the auspices of actually curing, rather than treating, AIDS. It is big business, plain and simple, to keep AIDS going, and to provide drugs to the victims that make them feel that it's OK to engage in the behaviours which caused them to become infected in the first place (in the U.S., drug companies run ads and put up billboards showing people with AIDS leading normal lives, as if disease free: there have been increasing numbers of lawsuits in the U.S. to prevent this, for public health reasons). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 11:28:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F23337B408 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.139.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.139.200] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15s6xA-0002Bh-00; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:22:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC7351C.9744234E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:23:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <000601c15084$87edd360$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <1002663600.3bc36eb096ee5@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011009231343.C387@blossom.cjclark.org> <1002731960.3bc479b899603@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011010140126.M387@blossom.cjclark.org> <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC53F53.967C60E7@mindspring.com> <20011011095336.A475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC5592C.1E8734F6@mindspring.com> <20011011122205.D17422@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I'm not sure of the numbers, but in the "boom years" after the war, > universities got much of their funding from the government: some from > the NSF, some from places like NASA. It was driven by technological > competition with the USSR, and by military desires (the development of > the atomic bomb convinced many that theoretical physics was the way to > go...) but whatever the motivations, it had a good effect, for US > industry in particular. The funding didn't conflict with the idea > that university research is for the public good and should not be > appropriated for private profit. Today, that idea is indeed being > questioned more and more, One of the biggest threats to this is that what was formerly placed in the public domain, as far as liability laws in the U.S. allow it, is now being placed under licenses like the GPL, where the information is not usable by everyone. > but I'd find it quite distressing if universities started > regarding patent portfolios as more important than sharing of > knowledge. It depends on the patents, but most Universities license their patents fairly cheaply, or license them for "$1 plus other valuable considerations", which usually amount to "we will hit you up for donations, if you make it big". The MIT patents, in particular, were used as a threat to USL over the USL vs. UCB lawsuit. Also note that patents, by definition, share the knowledge; if it weren't for the patent reform forced on the U.S. system by treaty, patents would be 14 years instead of 20 years. Yes, for many fields of study, that's too long a time, but for getting new drugs through the FDA approval process, it's nearly not long enough. Patents are also usable without fee for the purpose of research. So your complaint here seems to be that they do not permit commercial expolitation for too long a time, which I find a strange argument from your side of the fence... > > The transistor was never patented; this is because it was > > disclosed more than a year before anyone thought it might > > end up being anything more than a curiosity. Bell Labs > > has done a lot of that sort of thing. > > And you can argue that the benefits have been immense. Because > the transistor was never patented, it was picked up and played > with everywhere, especially by the Japanese. Some would argue that this is the major lynchpin in the foreign portion of the U.S. national debt. > Bell Labs didn't really lose much either: they got a Nobel, > fame, etc. These rewards are insufficient for the effort involved. > If they had tried to hold tightly to their invention, they may > have got a few royalties, but the uses to which it was put > within the next decade would probably not have materialised so > quickly. On the contrary: first, the commercial application of trasistor technology didn't follow until well after the invention, so the window there was incredibly small: much smaller than a decade. Second, there is _always_ more than one way to solve a problem, and if that avenue was blocked, simply knowing that such a thing was possible at all would have spurred investigation into other areas. Such investigation was effectively supressed by the _lack_ of a patent. So there is no telling how much further along we would be, had there been a barrier to the transistor, but not to the idea of a transistor itself (which was not a patentable thing, in any case: only the invention itself was patentable). > My point of view is this: when a company develops a new innovation, it > *already* has an advantage over its competitors; it can be first to > market, it can strengthen its brand image, it can stay ahead of its > competitors. However, with strong patent protection, the company can > rest on its patents and try to earn revenues by squeezing the rest of > the world (like Rambus tried, unsuccessfully, to do). The problem with this theory is that if we take it to heart, then we will no longer invest in research that takes longer to complete than the smallest possible time to market window, since we will not be able to recover costs fully before our competitors are able to come out with their own version of our invention. Therefore, we will have a research investment debt that they do not have, and thus they will be able to operate on smaller margins and drive us out of business by undercutting our prices to the point where we can no longer compete. If you want someone to spend 10 years on important research, then they need 10 years of protection. A 3 year protection window would satisfy almost all software research, for example. A 20 year window is more appropriate to something like the laser, or pharmaceuticals -- the former because of the magnitude of the innovations, and the latter because of the amount of the window which will be chewed up by governmental process following the patent application. > Compare with food products: people buy Kelloggs, or Kraft, for the > brand name, not because of superior quality. There is no patent or > other IP protection for cheese or corn flakes. Actually, there was on corn flakes, for quite a while... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 11:34:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5754D37B407 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.139.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.139.200] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15s78Q-0007CC-00; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:34:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:35:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> <20011011151552.B26149@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, > > > > Actually, we have a vaccine. > > References? > Certainly, there isn't one in general use. My father took it before his trip to the Amazon with the University of Pennsylvania alumni association. It made him sick as a dog for a good two weeks. It's generally available from any doctor in the U.S., if you have a reason to get it. You can also get immunized for Hepatitus A & B, there is an experimental vaccine for C, and you can get one for tuberculosis, smallpox, anthrax, and a number of others, but they are rarely prescribed to anyone outside the health care profession or the military, respectively. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 11:40:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC6037B406 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.139.200.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.139.200]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9CIdjd28838; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BC73924.77F9B910@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, "Crist J. Clark" , Ted Mittelstaedt , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark References: <1002817787.3bc5c8fbddbfd@webmail.neomedia.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > "Dangerous" technologies, that is, the precise details of how to _work_ eg > plutonium to make a bomb out of it, *should* be kept secret. Alas, this is > not always possible, but they should. Unless you are a moron, if you have a B.S. in Physical Chemistry, you will be able to work out how to do the processing with a standard sub-$1000 lab furnace. There are tons of people currently out of work in varios nations who might feel that a ptotato in the pot was worth disclosing the information. In any case, it doesn't matter: everyone who we are afraid of getting the weapons already has the information, they just can't readily apply it for lack of materials. > > The way we control such things is to control the availability > > of the critical raw materials very, very carefully. One of > > the reasons we have been so careful to court Pakistan and > > Uzbekistan must be that they are Afghanistan's neighbors, and > > are both members of "the nuclear club". > > Yup. I had left out one of the most important details. This is the only important detail. You can't contain knowledge for forever: you can only slow it, and in the larger context, you can't even do that. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 14: 3:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A9437B401 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.143.238.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.238]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9CL34T18591; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9CKNWD05596; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:23:32 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011012132331.K293@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <6xzo6xssir.o6x@localhost.localdomain> <20011011210426.D293@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 08:11:12AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 08:11:12AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > "Crist J. Clark" writes: > > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:47:56PM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > > > Also, I'll bet a tank of compressed air is a lot cheaper than one of > > > either Oxygen or Nitrogen. > > > > I've never seen a commerial cylinder of air. I don't know if you can > > buy one. I would think that for the vast majority of applications it > > is cheaper to buy an air compressor than to buy cylinders of air. > > I'm sure that you can buy nearly any gas you want, but maybe its > uncommon need outside the SCUBA field would make it no cheaper than O & N. > I do remember seeing hugh tanks of liquified air that someone preferred > to an air compressor. Liquifying air is a whole separate matter from just having compressed gas in a cylinder. You need to refrigerate air in order to get it to liquify. Air at "normal" (any natural terrestrial temperature) is above the critical temperature and never liquifies. Purchasing and maintaining equipment for liquifying atmospheric gases is very different from doing the same for compressed air. Lots of _big_ chemical plants don't even do it for themselves, but have co-located liquified gas plants from people who specialize in it, like Air Products. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 14:57:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8309237B405 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 43B9117BC1; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9D115CC5; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:57:37 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark In-Reply-To: <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, > > > > > > Actually, we have a vaccine. > > > > References? > > Certainly, there isn't one in general use. > > My father took it before his trip to the Amazon with the > University of Pennsylvania alumni association. It made > him sick as a dog for a good two weeks. He took a malaria prophylatic, like Mefloquine or Malarone, not a vaccine. There's a big and important difference. A vaccine would provide lasting immunity from a small number of doses, a prophylactic is only effective while it is being taken (or for shortly after). Widespread use of malaria prophylactics have greatly increased the instance of drug resistance in many parts of the world; a vaccine wouldn't likely do that, though of course, new strains may appear that aren't protected against, as is the case with the flu vaccine. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 16:14: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DDF37B407 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-25-94.dial.proxad.net [213.228.25.94]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62CF5F87B for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:13:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 421 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Oct 2001 23:11:35 -0000 Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:11:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011013011135.B343@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> <20011011151552.B26149@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:35:04AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 12, 2001 at 11:35:04: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, > > > > > > Actually, we have a vaccine. > > > > References? > > Certainly, there isn't one in general use. > > My father took it before his trip to the Amazon with the > University of Pennsylvania alumni association. It made > him sick as a dog for a good two weeks. > > It's generally available from any doctor in the U.S., if > you have a reason to get it. I kind of doubt it. As David Scheidt wrote in another mail, it's a topic of active research. There are some preliminary vaccines in the trial process, but given what you yourself wrote about the long-drawn testing process in the US, I doubt your father would have been given those unless he was part of these trial groups. Certainly, it's not "generally available." > You can also get immunized for Hepatitus A & B, there is > an experimental vaccine for C, and you can get one for > tuberculosis, smallpox, anthrax, and a number of others, Sure. Smallpox is eradicated, or so everyone hopes, and vaccines for others are well known but not recommended except for risk groups; also, the common vaccine for tuberculosis (BCG) doesn't always work -- some say it hardly ever works. But we were talking of malaria. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 16:14:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F239937B405 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-25-94.dial.proxad.net [213.228.25.94]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351D55F854 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:13:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 401 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Oct 2001 23:05:53 -0000 Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:05:53 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Returned mail: see transcript for details Message-ID: <20011013010553.A343@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > IBM is doing that for computer/technology reasons, not for medical > > research. All leading-edge companies do it, to show what they're > > capable of; IBM's last effort was a chess-playing machine which has no > > conceivable commercial or social benefit. If Blue Gene actually > > recovers an enzyme structure which would be useful medically, I doubt > > IBM would get the patent for it, but you know more than me about that, > > I'm sure. > > The commercial reason is that the protein folding problem is > the number one problem facing medicine at this point, and it > has broad applicatoin, if cracked. The application would be > to create any protein you want to create, at a greatly reduced > cost. Do not think that there will not be money in it for > whoever cracks the problem. I know a fair bit about the protein folding problem, including the fact that it's not as simple as you think (or as many naive physicists think). There will certainly be money in it, but I doubt the money will go to IBM simply for supplying the computer, any more than money for solving existing computational problems goes to the computer manufacturers. Moreover, the protein folding problem is much more than a computational problem. In its stripped down form, it is often stated as "mapping a protein sequence to its fold", and then it is imagined that doing a molecular dynamics simulation of the protein chain will be able to predict its fold, if carried out long enough. But real life is not that simple; proteins in nature don't fold like that, but are created and folded under very different circumstances. (Yes, I know, the people who will be using IBM's computer don't believe it's that simple either. But the complexities are basically biochemical, rather than computational, and IBM will really have little to do with solving those problems. This is all rather offtopic here, though.) > I think you are mixing passenger railway with freight railway, Well, yes, when referring to public services which are not successfully privatised, I was talking about passenger railway. > and concluding because people don't like passenger rail service > in the U.S. more than they like getting there quickly by plane, > or having daily control over their own schedules (how many dates > would you be able to have on the spur of the moment, if you were > required to take a relatively slow train home before you could > get in your car and drive to the date location?) Train travel is, of course, suitable only to some ranges of distances. One would not expect to travel from New York to Los Angeles by train. However, Los Angeles to San Francisco should certainly be possible, and a train travel between two such major cities separated by such a difference in France (say, Paris to Marseille) would take 3 or 4 hours, and there are several trains a day. For LA-SF, you can easily look at the amtrak site and find you can't do it without changing, taking bus connections, etc and spending over 8 hours. (I know that example because I needed to do that recently; but I've been told that it's the same, or worse, all over the US. It's a bit better on the east coast in the Washington-New York-Boston zone, I admit; but still doesn't approach the efficiency of the SNCF in France. (Since the faster Paris-Marseille track opened a few months ago, air tickets on that route are going unsold, while the train, which runs several times a day, is booked out well in advance.) As for my other example, India -- trains on short distance scales are very frequent too, and if they're not always comfortable and not as fast as the SNCF, at least they're extremely cheap. (The higher-class fares from Bangalore to Madras, a distance of around 370 km I think, covered in 4.5 hours to 7 hours depending on the train chosen, are $10 or less. The lower class fares reserved are around $3. The unreserved fares are, I think, $2 or so. There is one fast day train, two medium-fast day trains, and one slow night train every day; in fact there are other trains too but these are not commonly used to travel the full distance.) Shorter distances, say Bombay-Pune or Bangalore-Mysore (around 150 km), are much more frequent. So, in answer to your question: yes, you can decide these things on the spur of the moment, both in India and in France, the only two countries I have spent significant time in. If you can't in the US, that's a problem with the US. > It's not surprising to me that FedEx and DHL, whose main > claim to market share in India is that they are able to send > and deliver internationally, would be more expensive. How about France, where also they are more expensive? Besides, I was referring to delivery prices within India (strictly speaking, I was referring to a francisee of FedEx called Blue Dart, and a franchisee of DHL whose name I forget). > > In France, too, FedEx and other couriers are more expensive > > than the French post's "Chronopost". Ordinary letters within > > France cost three francs, or around 40 cents; I doubt any > > courier company could approach that price point. > > You're wrong. If the postal system were not a state monopoly > in most countries, it would be easy to compete on purely > economic terms, using more modern automation than that used > by them. The cost isn't the "automation" in sorting and so on; it's in delivery at the doorstep of the recipient. Postal departments everywhere have a reach which extends to the remotest villages, because governments have supplied such links as parts of basic infrastructure. Couriers will not find it cost-effective to make door-to-door delivery of ordinary letters at such rates (40 cents in France, 4 cents in India, whatever). In fact I know the Indian rates are subsidised and not profitable; the postal department tries to recover the cost from things like courier services. For the same reason, private transport operators tend not to serve remote low-populated areas, and it is often left to government-run transport to serve those markets; these routes are not profitable for the government either, but they cross-subsidise them from other routes or other income sources. > > The turmeric patents were rejected, but only after protracted > > litigation, which most developing countries can ill afford. Other > > patents still exist. > > Developing countries can (and do) simply ignore patents. > > This seems to be an issue that's really a problem with the > WTO, and with India's system, in particular. The U.S. > patent office actually worked: it rejected the patent. For turmeric, and after representation from India. Not for neem (margosa, I think, in English) and other herbal products, so far. Those patents still exist. > While I agree that there are assinine abuses of the U.S. > patent system, this case was clearly an attempt by people > who knew something as a result of regional common knowledge > trying to cash in on that knowledge, to the detriment of > everyone else. Sure. The point is it's rather frequent. India is not the only country affected. And you claimed it's not possible to do this, which is not true. > > > > Then the countries most affected by this have to go through > > > > expensive and time-consuming litigation to try and overthrow > > > > the patent. > > > > > > That's ridiculous. > > > > See the above links, again. For more links, just do a search on > > google, for example, for "turmeric patent" or "neem patent". > > It's ridiculous in that countries do not have to overthrow > such patents, not because of the process involved in doing > that. They most certainly do have to overthrow them, at some point, if they want an open market for export of these products, which they do rather actively. Otherwise they'd be violating a patent. Perhaps you're arguing that they can ignore them and pretend the patent doesn't exist, and the multinational who got the patent won't sue. I don't see that happening, and it's probably cheaper to overthrow the thing to begin with than to sit and wait for a patent-infringement lawsuit and then tackle that. > > Realize, also, that your knowledge of "those countries" is extremely > > limited and gleaned from a very selective reading. > > I have averaged a book a day for the last 30 years; I rather > doubt my reading is as selective as yours. > > In any case, I was referring to the financial interest of the > countries, like the U.S. and India, which stand to make a > much larger amount of money from AIDS treatments than they > would, were they to actually cure the disease. I can't really say about the US, but India and other developing countries are certainly not making any money from AIDS treatments. > India did not approach AIDS drug shipments to Africa as the > purely humanitarian endeavor that they claimed: Ah now you're referring to a specific Bombay-based pharmaceutical company, Cipla, as "India". I could equally well refer to Monsanto as "The US". That's just silly. By "India" one can mean, most restrictively, the Indian government, but preferably a broader index like the GDP. To claim that India would make a gain, one would have to show that Cipla's gains were offset by the huge costs of government-sponsored AIDS treatment within India itself. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 16:39:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp004pub.verizon.net (smtp004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF83037B409 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp004pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id f9CNdRp15974 Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:39:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA11815; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:38:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:38:54 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Message-ID: <20011012163854.B11769@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> <20011011151552.B26149@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com> <20011013011135.B343@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20011013011135.B343@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:11:35AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:11:35AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on Oct 12, 2001 at 11:35:04: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, > > > > > > > > Actually, we have a vaccine. > > > > > > References? > > > Certainly, there isn't one in general use. > > > > My father took it before his trip to the Amazon with the > > University of Pennsylvania alumni association. It made > > him sick as a dog for a good two weeks. > > > > It's generally available from any doctor in the U.S., if > > you have a reason to get it. > > I kind of doubt it. As David Scheidt wrote in another mail, it's a > topic of active research. There are some preliminary vaccines in the > trial process, but given what you yourself wrote about the long-drawn > testing process in the US, I doubt your father would have been given > those unless he was part of these trial groups. Certainly, it's not > "generally available." > > > You can also get immunized for Hepatitus A & B, there is > > an experimental vaccine for C, and you can get one for > > tuberculosis, smallpox, anthrax, and a number of others, > > Sure. Smallpox is eradicated, or so everyone hopes, and vaccines for > others are well known but not recommended except for risk groups; > also, the common vaccine for tuberculosis (BCG) doesn't always work -- > some say it hardly ever works. But we were talking of malaria. Oregon requires (innoculation against) Hep B for entry into public school or licensed preschool / daycare, etc. And Hep A is suggested. From what I hear, my wife's friends in Canada are preplexed that we innoculate for chicken pox. Some things are bad to be the leader in. [RC] > > R > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 12 17: 8:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA3237B405 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.28] ([194.78.144.28]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f9D07v410831; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:07:58 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com> References: <20011010233539.G83192@lpt.ens.fr> <007f01c15220$a92e4ee0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011011095845.B475@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC560CC.265B97BC@mindspring.com> <20011011151552.B26149@lpt.ens.fr> <3BC737D8.1A856AFA@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:30:30 +0200 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 AM -0700 2001/10/12, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > > We still don't have anything for malaria beyond quinine, >> > >> > Actually, we have a vaccine. >> >> References? >> Certainly, there isn't one in general use. > > My father took it before his trip to the Amazon with the > University of Pennsylvania alumni association. It made > him sick as a dog for a good two weeks. I believe it's called Chloroquine, and is based on quinine. A quick search of the PDR should show it up. Certainly a quick Google search comes up with a bunch of hits, including . -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 13 12:11:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ntlg.sibnet.ru (dns.sibnet.ru [217.70.96.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD4537B405; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlg5-ppp37.sibnet.ru (tlg5-ppp37.sibnet.ru [217.70.97.38]) by ntlg.sibnet.ru (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05478; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:11:01 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 02:12:35 +0700 (NOVST) From: "Semen A. Ustimenko" X-Sender: semenu@def.the.net To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: Paul Richards , developers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services free subscriptions In-Reply-To: <3BC7BDD4.7BDC3656@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Does this mean that every FreeBSD committer, that may want FreeBSD release CDs, *must* be listed in handbook? And those, not listed there, won't get it. Bye! On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Wes Peters wrote: > Paul Richards wrote: > > > > We'll be doing something formal to manage this process. Probably culling > > the list of committers from the handbook at each release to make sure we > > have everyone and then contacting them for postal addresses. > > > > You can all stop sending me your details privately :-) > > Yes, you people please stop mailing details of your privates to Paul. > That's illegal in some places, you know. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 13 15: 7:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-136.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CC037B40F; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 31B6066B0C; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:07:29 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Semen A. Ustimenko" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Paul Richards , developers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services free subscriptions Message-ID: <20011013150729.A74378@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3BC7BDD4.7BDC3656@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from semenu@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:12:35AM +0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:12:35AM +0700, Semen A. Ustimenko wrote: > Hi! >=20 > Does this mean that every FreeBSD committer, that may want FreeBSD release > CDs, *must* be listed in handbook? And those, not listed there, won't get > it. You should be listed in the handbook if you're a committer. Traditionally it's the first thing you do after you get your commit bit. Kris --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7yLshWry0BWjoQKURAvgvAJ424r3wIbin5jnod5OQ74Gu1SZXqQCdGxhS 5ydFbHJ1nycfv3Fu6oTM+gA= =LYPt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message