From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 3:45:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65EE37B403; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 03:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9LAivK17957; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:44:57 +0200 (CEST) To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <1003661097.3bd2a72959115@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:44:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.170.247 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 0:33:07 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > > > I am not sure whether the same could be said of the Koran. > > Recently, I have spoken with a few historians of religion, among > > others. I was explicitly told that the "organic design" contained > > in the Koran is one of the worst forms of _totalitarianism_. In > > particular, the "moderate" parts in the Koran are only a means to an > > end. > > I've tried to read the Quran, and I've found it very hard going. The > Bible is a model of clarity by comparison. The Quran brings home very > forcibly that its scribe was not a learned man. I don't think you can > interpret much more into its form. By the way, as far as I can see on the 'Net for now, there WAS a fine pre-islamic culture (which had points of contact with Veda). Mr Muhammad felt it his duty to destroy that culture. The best-known example of this kind of attitude/behavio(u)r is the destruction of Alexandria's library: thousands of scrolls (~ 700.000?) were burnt -- because either they were in contradiction with the Koran or they had the same contents as the Koran [sic!]. Well, I'll have to RTFM on these topics before speaking. :-) > > I have been revising a number of things lately. My history > > textbooks -- I live in Italy -- simply described the splendid > > Islamic civilization in the Mediterranean (well, in Spain and > > especially in Sicily), as well as its far-reaching cultural > > influence on Western thought. > > All valid points. > > > They were deliberately lying: > > No, like most historians they were looking at the parts which > interested them. > > > a few ahem "minor" aspects (eg earlier massacres) were "omitted" or > > hinted at. Moreover, that's just _one part_ of the story: the > > western part. The _eastern_ part of the story is horrible to say > > the least. > > You mean the Eastern story of the atrocities committed by Christians? > Those were violent times. I don't think the Muslims were worse than > the Christians. I was referring to Islamic atrocities in the East (eg India). I had been reading some material about that on the 'Net (cf Hindu Holocaust). l'll have to RTFM on this, too. :-) > > I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" > > Islam at all. > > Could you explain that? There may be fewer Muslims who just pay lip > service to their religion than there are Christians, but I wouldn't > even be sure about that. I grew up in Malaysia, a country with Islam > as its state religion. While I don't approve at all of enforced > religion (if you're Malay, you *must* be Muslim), until this Mulslim > fundamentalism thing sprung up, I found Islam a very gentle religion. > For most people, it still is. "Moderate interpreters" simply discard certain parts of the Koran. Whence the image of gentle religion. Thus, however, they betray the actual totalitarian doctrin underlying the Koran; fundamentalists don't. Better than nothing. I would say that "moderate interpreters" are profoundly aware of what they are doing and why they are doing it. > > Of course, strong political reasons make all western political > > leaders speak of ahem "moderate Islam". > > As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of > all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name of their > religion. Christ != Muhammad Bruno and Galileo (a _Catholic_ scientist) were well-known examples of "Christian" intolerance. I am afraid this has nothing to do with what Christ said, though. More generally, "Christian" misdoings have very little to do with the NT. These so-called "Christians" were actually barbarians (cf eg the crusades) -- of the worst kind. Religio instrumentum regni. In the Middle Ages (and later: cf Bruno, Galileo), a number of "popes" applied this very ancient principle of politics. Incidentally, Matthew says: "Nolite possidere aurum neque argentum neque pecuniam in zonis vestris non peram in via neque duas tunicas neque calciamenta neque virgam dignus enim est operarius cibo suo [...]". This is not exactly in harmony with the existence of a rich _State_ of the Church, namely with "popes" pursuing _temporal_ power and interests. To the shame of all Christianity per omnia saecula saeculorum. By contrast, Islamic atrocities are in full harmony with what Mr Muhammad himself, a very, erm, "gentle" prophet ("THE Prophet"), said, did, and wrote. -- Salvo (needing to RTFM much more, though) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 8:46:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4471F37B401 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp134.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.134]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id BAA14716; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:44:18 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp134.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.134] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9LFlIB27704; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:47:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Sun, 21 Oct 2001 03:40:08 +0000" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:47:18 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21st October 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 06:43 PM 10/20/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of >>all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name of their >>religion. > >Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name >of their religion? Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating Palestinians it doesn't like. I really can't understand how their politicians can get up on TV and complain about Palestinian terrorism as if they don't use exactly the same methods themselves. Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 12:32:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CCF237B403 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15vOK3-0001Sk-00; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:31:47 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JM0KF>; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:31:45 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'Stephen McKay' , Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:31:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen McKay [mailto:mckay@thehub.com.au] > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 17:47 > To: Brett Glass > Cc: chat@freebsd.org; mckay@thehub.com.au > Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims > of terror)) > > > On Sunday, 21st October 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > >At 06:43 PM 10/20/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of > >>all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the > name of their > >>religion. > > > >Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name > >of their religion? > > Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating > Palestinians it doesn't like. I really can't understand how their > politicians can get up on TV and complain about Palestinian terrorism > as if they don't use exactly the same methods themselves. > > Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious > connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. I'll take on that as I probably have more information on this then you guys. Fighting terror is a hard problem in modern day and age as many facilities and strategies that we're developed for all-out army war are almost irrelevant. A very good solution that can be applied in small territories such as Israel is getting *a lot* of Intel on *known* targets and "eliminating" them. Yes, people are being killed. Yes, *all* of them are terrorists. No, these are not the same methods as the terrorist's. An army can't send suicide bombers to explode themselves amidst a crowd of civilians. You have question the "target acquiring" process. The process in which it's decided to level this or the other individual. I dare you to find one declared "target" who has not earned that title. Comparing the Israeli tactics with the American tactic, which failed miserably in Vietnam and in the Gulf war, I think "elimination" of selected individuals is much more humane and less prone to hurt bystanders. It seems absurd to compare the Israeli "eliminations" to terrorists activity, it is a controlled-army action against proven terrorists. It's as if I was comparing the American activities in Afghanistan, which undoubtedly are *meant* to protect Americans, to terrorists activity. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 12:46:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1AB37B405 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.139.60.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.139.60]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02874; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:47:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen McKay wrote: > >Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name > >of their religion? My first candidate for atrocity in answer to this was "continuing failure to convert to Islam"... > Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating > Palestinians it doesn't like. I really can't understand how their > politicians can get up on TV and complain about Palestinian terrorism > as if they don't use exactly the same methods themselves. > > Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious > connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. After the celebrations in the streets of the West bank following the events of September 11th, I think you will find this a hard sell. Before September 11th, it was possible to have sympathy for these people; now it is no longer possible. Looking at the Israeli/Palestinian situation from outside, it's really hard to understand what it is the Palestinians hope to achieve. It's clear they want self rule. I don't think anyone objects to that -- the problem is _where_ they want it: in land lost to them in war. Not even the "most noble" of cultures imaginable has historically been willing to return the spoils of war, particularly to when it is the aggressor nation who lost. The U.S. wasn't interfering with Afghani self rule, until very recently, even though they were implementing the policies of historical revisionism, destruction of women's sufferage, denial of education to women (15% of Afghani women are literate, as opposed to 47% of Afghani men), and other acts which the general U.S. population finds incredibly oppressive of their own people. In other words, they have an oppressive regime which the U.S. nonetheless recognized their right to have. If the complaint is that the Israelis punish the group when an individual transgresses... I completely understand that policy: the U.S. might have been able to avoid the September 11th events, had it adopted a similar policy earlier. It's the policy used in schools an military units, to this day, to get peers to police the members of their peer group themselves. If the complaint is that they react to stone-throwing by children with deadly force... I completely understand that policy, too: there are plenty of examples from U.S. history, where someone uses a low level of force to trigger a chase that results in an ambush. If you know a veteran of the Vietnam conflict, ask them about V.C. tactics utilizing children as weapons delivery systems or triggers for provoked ambushes. I think most people in the West see the correct reaction to Palestinians is to say "you lost; get over it, quit whining, and go on with your lives; if you don't like it, as Israeli citizens, you get to elect representatives, so elect people who will do what you want". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 13:58:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from best.llama.com (llama.com [63.194.69.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD40A37B401 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from the@localhost) by best.llama.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12550; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from the) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:58:16 -0700 From: Sam Habash To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011021135816.A12222@llama.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:47:01PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert stated (among other things): > I think most people in the West see the correct reaction > to Palestinians is to say "you lost; get over it, quit > whining, and go on with your lives; if you don't like it, > as Israeli citizens, you get to elect representatives, so > elect people who will do what you want". Yet another statement of the Way the World Ought To Be by Lambert. I didn't know that Palestinians in the occupied West Bank had citizenship. Maybe Israel should have just annexed "Judea and Samaria", so that the "Palestinians" there could have done just that. If the Israels didn't have to deal with that very question, they would have done so long, long ago. 34 years later, we see the consequences of leaving the question of the West Bank and Gaza up in the air. Relatively little is mentioned in the US about the Israeli Arabs who -have done- and -do- just as you been asking. Oh, but they aren't Palestinians then, right? I find this interesting reading: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/arabstat.html Overall, it's bad to look to Israel as a "guiding light" in such matters...I really do not care to adopt the tactics of a garrison state, despite what the Israeli lobby in the United States would like for Americans to pay, er, think... assssination and collective punishment have no place in societies dedicated to preserving the rule of law, period...the terrorists would like for nothing better than to have their purported victims continue their dirty work. Yes, I am a US citizen. Yes, I am "Palestinian" by national origin. I do not believe that a state run by Arafat's Fatah would be in the best interest of anybody who values freedom and democracy, since Arafat and his organization are corrupt, murderous thugs that have used the plight of the Palestinian people for their own advantage. However, I am not one to contest the will of the people there, as misguided as I feel that it is. Or are we truly against self-determination because Palestinians are all terrorists and deserve to have their houses demolished, their people arrested, beaten, and tortured, etc.? The Israelis, as rotten as their record has been--Ariel Sharon himself is *directly responsible* for thousands of civilian deaths (c.f. http://electronicintifada.net/forreference/keyfigures/sharon.html)-- at least *have* a track record as a pluralistic, multiethnic society. Despite the massive economic and emotional toll their occupation of the West Bank has inflicted, and the shocking level which the Israeli lobby will go to protect continued US aid, and the corrupting influence of said aid, I hold a fleeting hope that Israel will come to its senses and not continue on its path of brutality and aggression. I liked it much better when the chat was about FreeBSD, but there's no chance of that happening any time soon, is there? --Sam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 15:40:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C96D37B405 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.139.60.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.139.60]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05819; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BD34EFC.D97448B4@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:41:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Habash Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> <20011021135816.A12222@llama.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sam Habash wrote: > I didn't know that Palestinians in the occupied West Bank had > citizenship. Your word usage makes your bias quite clear... It's not occupied, it's territory won in war. To be occupied, a war would have to be active right now: | Main Entry: oc=B7cu=B7py = | Pronunciation: '=E4-ky&-"pI | Function: transitive verb | Inflected Form(s): -pied; -py=B7ing | Etymology: Middle English occupien to take possession of, occupy, | modification of Middle French occuper, from Latin occupare, from \ | ob- toward + -cupare (akin to capere to seize) -- more at OB-, HEAVE | Date: 14th century [ ... ] | 3 a : to take or hold possession or control of So either it's not "the occupied West Bank", or you are claiming that there is an active war in progress, in which case, they are defending themselves. > Maybe Israel should have just annexed "Judea and Samaria", so > that the "Palestinians" there could have done just that. I think they didn't because the Palestinians there didn't attack them, so the Israeli's didn't kick their butt and take their land, like they kicked the butt of the Palestinians on the West bank. > If the Israels didn't have to deal with that very question, > they would have done so long, long ago. 34 years later, we see > the consequences of leaving the question of the West Bank and Gaza > up in the air. You're right. It was a huge strategic blunder, which I'm sure they regret. > Relatively little is mentioned in the US about the Israeli Arabs > who -have done- and -do- just as you been asking. That's because we don't have news stories about things that work, only about things that don't work. > Oh, but they aren't Palestinians then, right? I think that they could probably be fairly identified as Palestinian-Israeli's. I think it would be idiotic to do that; it seperates you from the people around you when you hyphenate the name of your nationality to put another nationality first. Much of the (much milder) problems in the U.S. stem from self identification into groups, and the leaders of those groups keeping the seperation intact in order to obtain some measure of political or economic power, at the expense of the people the "lead". If it were up to me, it would be illegal to ask for any information on ethnicity, former nationality, etc., even on government forms -- including census forms. People are not their enthicity, nor are they their former nationality, once they have citizenship. Some of the problems in Oakland, CA, which has the highest concentration of Afghani immigrants of any city in the U.S., are because we are identifying these people as being in a group distinct from all other Americans: Afghan-Americans. It damn well doesn't matter where they came from: they are just Americans, now, like the rest of the U.S. citizenry. > = > I find this interesting reading: > = > http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/arabstat.html Me too. The results of a seperatist educational system are fairly clear in the resulting society. Perhaps one of the reasons the U.S. has been so successful at homogenizing its people is the forced integration of schools, beginning in the 1960's. > Overall, it's bad to look to Israel as a "guiding light" in > such matters...I really do not care to adopt the tactics of a > garrison state, despite what the Israeli lobby in the > United States would like for Americans to pay, er, think... > assssination and collective punishment have no place in societies > dedicated to preserving the rule of law, period...the terrorists > would like for nothing better than to have their purported victims > continue their dirty work. This is a common anti-death-penalty stance, regardless of the method of imposition. We need to remind ourselves that the purpose of any penalty, ge it a fine, imprisonment, or even death at the hands of the state, is _not_ rehabilitation of the criminal, and _not_ punishment of the criminal: it is, instead, intended as an object lesson to the society, of the penalty for antisocial behaviour. In fact, to this day, we still call it "the penal system". > Yes, I am a US citizen. Yes, I am "Palestinian" by national origin. No, you're not a Palestinian. You are an American. If your national origin was Plastinian, it doesn't matter: when you obtained U.S. citizenship, you forswore all loyalties to all other nations. > I do not believe that a state run by Arafat's Fatah would be in the > best interest of anybody who values freedom and democracy, since > Arafat and his organization are corrupt, murderous thugs that > have used the plight of the Palestinian people for their own > advantage. Yes. Exactly as the self-identification seperatist organizations in the U.S. are used by their leaders. > However, I am not one to contest the will of the people there, as > misguided as I feel that it is. Clearly, this is the general U.S. perspective, or we would have intervened in the internal affairs of many more nations, and Afghanistan in particular, well before events dictated we must. > Or are we truly against self-determination because Palestinians > are all terrorists and deserve to have their houses demolished, > their people arrested, beaten, and tortured, etc.? Clearly not. The U.S., I think, is all for the participation of citizens in the duly constituted governmental processes of the region in which they reside. What this means for Palestinians is that, so long as they live on Israeli soil, they are subject to Israeli rule. They may not like the fact that it's Israeli soil, but Israeli soil it is, and that is unlikely to ever change. > The Israelis, as rotten as their record has been--Ariel Sharon himself > is *directly responsible* for thousands of civilian deaths (c.f. > http://electronicintifada.net/forreference/keyfigures/sharon.html)-- > at least *have* a track record as a pluralistic, multiethnic society. Only partially; your earlier reference indicated a distinct lack of multiethnicity in the primary education system. I have to say that your Intifada reference backs up my past conclusion that Israel has been strangely tolerant. Historically, most nations winning land in war have either put the indiginous population to the knife or forcibly naturalized them (destroying their cultural individuality, in the process). The U.S. did this with a vengence on several occasions, as have most nations which have survived to this day. > Despite the massive economic and emotional toll their occupation of the= > West Bank has inflicted, and the shocking level which the Israeli > lobby will go to protect continued US aid, and the corrupting influence= > of said aid, I hold a fleeting hope that Israel will come to its senses= > and not continue on its path of brutality and aggression. > = > I liked it much better when the chat was about FreeBSD, but there's no > chance of that happening any time soon, is there? I think the sooner people realize that the U.S. is not playing at a war on terroism, the sooner they will quit trying to cast the events of September 11th as a result of U.S. policy, and realize that the terrorists ultimately are responsible for their own actions, regardless of what "provocation" may or may not exist. The U.S. _will_ hold them responsible for their actions, and the U.S. _will not_ permit terrorist acts to control U.S. foreign policy. Do not expect the U.S. position on the Israeli/Palestinian situation to change as a result of the attack; expect the U.S. position to become even more firmly entrenched. If we even suspect that the motivation was over a particular U.S. foreign policy issue, expect a knee-jerk reaction opposite of the one the terrorists wanted to force us into. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 16:24:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6519037B401 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03295; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:24:29 -0600 To: Stephen McKay From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au In-Reply-To: <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:47 AM 10/21/2001, Stephen McKay wrote: >>Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name >>of their religion? > >Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating >Palestinians it doesn't like. Israel is doing no such thing. It is not "assassinating" Palestininans, but rather appropriately going after terrorists that have killed innocent people or are preparing to. And it's not being done in the name of religion. Israel is a secular state. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 16:28:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B303837B405 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03319; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:28:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172532.04293960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:27:57 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Stephen McKay From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:47 PM 10/21/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >It's clear they want self rule. I don't think anyone >objects to that -- the problem is _where_ they want it: >in land lost to them in war. Actually, that land has changed hands so many times over the centuries that any claim to "rightful" ownership of it is arbitrary. But the Israelis are actually good stewards of it. In fact, the Arabs living within Israel's boundaries live better, and are treated better, than those in Gaza and other areas ceded to the Palestinian terrorists. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 17:17:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9A737B403 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8F9BF6ACAB; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:47:39 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:47:39 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011022094739.F99042@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> <1003661097.3bd2a72959115@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1003661097.3bd2a72959115@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:44:57PM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 12:44:57 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 0:33:07 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: >>> >>> I am not sure whether the same could be said of the Koran. >>> Recently, I have spoken with a few historians of religion, among >>> others. I was explicitly told that the "organic design" contained >>> in the Koran is one of the worst forms of _totalitarianism_. In >>> particular, the "moderate" parts in the Koran are only a means to an >>> end. >> >> I've tried to read the Quran, and I've found it very hard going. The >> Bible is a model of clarity by comparison. The Quran brings home very >> forcibly that its scribe was not a learned man. I don't think you can >> interpret much more into its form. > > By the way, as far as I can see on the 'Net for now, there WAS a > fine pre-islamic culture (which had points of contact with Veda). > Mr Muhammad felt it his duty to destroy that culture. > > The best-known example of this kind of attitude/behavio(u)r is the > destruction of Alexandria's library: thousands of scrolls (~ > 700.000?) were burnt -- because either they were in contradiction > with the Koran or they had the same contents as the Koran [sic!]. > Well, I'll have to RTFM on these topics before speaking. :-) Yes, you should have done. The library in Alexandria was burnt down in 412, hundreds of years before the birth of Mohammed, by Christian monks in the name of Christianity. http://members.iinet.net.au/~nicke/library/library.htm . >> You mean the Eastern story of the atrocities committed by >> Christians? Those were violent times. I don't think the Muslims >> something like 700were worse than the Christians. > > I was referring to Islamic atrocities in the East (eg India). I had > been reading some material about that on the 'Net (cf Hindu > Holocaust). l'll have to RTFM on this, too. :-) Yes, do that. >>> I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" >>> Islam at all. >> >> Could you explain that? There may be fewer Muslims who just pay lip >> service to their religion than there are Christians, but I wouldn't >> even be sure about that. I grew up in Malaysia, a country with Islam >> as its state religion. While I don't approve at all of enforced >> religion (if you're Malay, you *must* be Muslim), until this Mulslim >> fundamentalism thing sprung up, I found Islam a very gentle religion. >> For most people, it still is. > > "Moderate interpreters" simply discard certain parts of the Koran. They do the same with the bible. Deuteronomy 7:1-3 When the LORD your God brings you to the land that you are about to invade and occupy, and He dislodges many nations before you--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusiites, seven nations much larger than you---and the LORD your God delivers them to you and you defeat them, you must doom them to destruction: grant them no terms and give them no quarter. What does this mean if you interpret it literally? And you know there are dozens of such arguments. > Whence the image of gentle religion. Thus, however, they betray the > actual totalitarian doctrin underlying the Koran; fundamentalists > don't. This is a very one-sided argument. >>> Of course, strong political reasons make all western political >>> leaders speak of ahem "moderate Islam". >> >> As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of >> all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name of their >> religion. > > Christ != Muhammad Your point? > Bruno and Galileo (a _Catholic_ scientist) were well-known examples of > "Christian" intolerance. I am afraid this has nothing to do with what Christ > said, though. More generally, "Christian" misdoings have very little to do > with the NT. These so-called "Christians" were actually barbarians (cf eg the > crusades) -- of the worst kind. > > Religio instrumentum regni. In the Middle Ages (and later: cf Bruno, > Galileo), a number of "popes" applied this very ancient principle of politics. > > Incidentally, Matthew says: "Nolite possidere aurum neque argentum neque > pecuniam in zonis vestris non peram in via neque duas tunicas neque > calciamenta neque virgam dignus enim est operarius cibo suo [...]". This is > not exactly in harmony with the existence of a rich _State_ of the Church, > namely with "popes" pursuing _temporal_ power and interests. To the shame of > all Christianity per omnia saecula saeculorum. So what are you getting at? > By contrast, Islamic atrocities are in full harmony with what Mr > Muhammad himself, a very, erm, "gentle" prophet I didn't say that. > ("THE Prophet"), said, did, and wrote. Can you give me a quotation? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 18:25:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2129D37B401 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 10E056ACAC; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:55:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:55:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Yonatan Bokovza Cc: Stephen McKay , Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011022105523.A18153@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Yonatan@xpert.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 09:31:44PM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 21:31:44 +0200, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > On Sunday, October 21, 2001 17:47, Stephen McKay wrote: >> On Sunday, 21st October 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >>> At 06:43 PM 10/20/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members >>>> of all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name >>>> of their religion. >>> >>> Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the >>> name of their religion? >> >> Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating >> Palestinians it doesn't like. I really can't understand how their >> politicians can get up on TV and complain about Palestinian terrorism >> as if they don't use exactly the same methods themselves. >> >> Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious >> connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. > > I'll take on that as I probably have more information on this then > you guys. Fighting terror is a hard problem in modern day and age > as many facilities and strategies that we're developed for all-out > army war are almost irrelevant. Agreed. > A very good solution that can be applied in small territories such > as Israel is getting *a lot* of Intel on *known* targets and > "eliminating" them. Yes, people are being killed. Yes, *all* of > them are terrorists. Including the babies? > No, these are not the same methods as the terrorist's. An army can't > send suicide bombers to explode themselves amidst a crowd of > civilians. That's only one form of terrorism, one that is still relatively uncommon. How does shooting Palestinian representatives differ from shooting Israeli representatives? The fact that they've killed innocent people is not a differentiator: Sharon has done that. > You have question the "target acquiring" process. The process in > which it's decided to level this or the other individual. I dare you > to find one declared "target" who has not earned that title. Some of those babies taken in collateral damage? > Comparing the Israeli tactics with the American tactic, which failed > miserably in Vietnam and in the Gulf war, I think "elimination" of > selected individuals is much more humane and less prone to hurt > bystanders. It seems absurd to compare the Israeli "eliminations" > to terrorists activity, It seems completely obvious. It's fighting terrorists with their own weapons. > it is a controlled-army action against proven terrorists. Does the Palestinian Authority agree? It's not proof unless all involved people agree. > It's as if I was comparing the American activities in Afghanistan, > which undoubtedly are *meant* to protect Americans, to terrorists > activity. No, the American activities in Afghanistan are not terrorism, they would be conventional warfare if the US had declared war. As you observe above, they might be more successful if they adopted terrorist tactics. Don't get me wrong, I'm not siding with the terrorists. But the general view of most people on this list is so biased to their own point of view that they can't even begin to see the other side. If people would understand *why* these people are attacking them, they'd be in a better position to stop things happening. And they won't do that by trying to blast them out of existence. The best way of fighting these problems is to eliminate their cause. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 18:27:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B359D37B405 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D0F436ACC6; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:57:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:57:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Stephen McKay , Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011022105743.B18153@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:47:01PM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 12:47:01 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Stephen McKay wrote: >>> Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name >>> of their religion? > > My first candidate for atrocity in answer to this was "continuing > failure to convert to Islam"... > >> Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating >> Palestinians it doesn't like. I really can't understand how their >> politicians can get up on TV and complain about Palestinian terrorism >> as if they don't use exactly the same methods themselves. >> >> Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious >> connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. > > After the celebrations in the streets of the West bank following the > events of September 11th, I think you will find this a hard sell. You mean the stunt put on for the press? What makes you think that that's the general opinion in the Middle East? > Before September 11th, it was possible to have sympathy for these > people; now it is no longer possible. Because now the Americans have been hurt, and not only lots of people over there who don't count because they believe in a different religion? > Looking at the Israeli/Palestinian situation from outside, it's > really hard to understand what it is the Palestinians hope to > achieve. For a certain definition of "outside", you're obviously correct. I'd like to know that definition, though. These people lived in this country for over a thousand years. The British occupied the country and then gave part of it to immigrants. They fought and lost. Does that make them vermin? > It's clear they want self rule. I don't think anyone objects to > that -- the problem is _where_ they want it: in land lost to them in > war. Wasn't that what the Israelis wanted when they returned to Palestine? Why should their cause be right and that of the Palestinians be wrong? (Wrong answer: "because God said they should"). > Not even the "most noble" of cultures imaginable has historically > been willing to return the spoils of war, particularly to when it is > the aggressor nation who lost. The U.S. wasn't interfering with > Afghani I wonder when people will understand that "Afghani" is a unit of currency. I think you intended "Afghan". > self rule, until very recently, even though they were implementing > the policies of historical revisionism, destruction of women's > sufferage, denial of education to women (15% of Afghani women are > literate, as opposed to 47% of Afghani men), and other acts which > the general U.S. population finds incredibly oppressive of their own > people. In other words, they have an oppressive regime which the > U.S. nonetheless recognized their right to have. Yes, this is in the charter of the United Nations. The US was an uninvolved party. > If the complaint is that the Israelis punish the group when an > individual transgresses... I completely understand that policy: the > U.S. might have been able to avoid the September 11th events, had it > adopted a similar policy earlier. But isn't this what the Palestinians are trying too, with what methods are available to them? Again, you're being very selective in your allowance of this behaviour. > If the complaint is that they react to stone-throwing by children > with deadly force... I completely understand that policy, too: Of course, because they're Palestinian children. > I think most people in the West see the correct reaction to > Palestinians is to say "you lost; get over it, quit whining, and go > on with your lives; if you don't like it, as Israeli citizens, you > get to elect representatives, so elect people who will do what you > want". That may be correct, but what right have people in the West to dictate what happens to the Palestinians? If you had been born in 1910, would you have written something similar in 1938 about how these horrible Jews were being treated in Germany? I'm sure you'll come out and say "but that's nothing like the same thing". Explain the principles (not the details) why not. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 18:57:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smail-104.hanmail.net (smail-104.hanmail.net [211.233.29.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C04937B403 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from premium1.hanmail.net ([211.233.28.98]) by smail-104.hanmail.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f9M1Rei13678; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:27:41 +0900 Received: (from hanadmin@localhost) by premium1.hanmail.net (8.10.0/8.9.1) id f9M1Ps211792; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:25:54 +0900 (KST) X-Originating-IP: [211.236.103.239] From: "=?EUC-KR?B?wfa0zw==?=" Reply-To: "=?EUC-KR?B?wfa0zw==?=" Organization: To: Subject: =?EUC-KR?B?yK+788DHILrxtNyx5i4uLrD8vcm++LTCILrQIMjewfbF68fgKMHL?= =?EUC-KR?B?vNspIA==?= X-Mailer: Daum Web Mailer 1.0 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:25:54 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <20011022102554.HM.0000000000013C0@premium1.hanmail.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=euc-kr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 당신이 힘들어할 때 어렵다고 느껴질 때 이 책을 읽으면 공기가 순환될 것 같아서..... <슬픈 일> 미국이 테러를 당하고 그 보복으로 아프가니스탄을 공격하면서 실크로드의 가장 험로이며, 세계의 지붕으로 최고의 비경인 카라코람 하이웨이 정상인 국경지역이 폐쇄되었다고 합니다. 이제 테러가 끝나고 전쟁이 끝날 때까지 비단길을 완주할 수가 없게 되었습니다. 그래서 책으로 봐야될 때입니다. <다행스런 일> 실크로드 탐험대가 작년에 다녀왔기에 가능했던 것 같습니다. *실크로드 탐험을 책으로 엮어 출판되었습니다. <책명은 또다른 꿈을 향하여 나는 달린다> 책을 자세히 보시려면 아래의 링크를 클릭해 주세요. *예스24 http://www.yes24.com/home/bk.asp?pk=224181 *리브로 http://www.libro.co.kr -리브로에는 탐험가 최종열 대장의 인터뷰가 있습니다. *교보문고 http://www.kyobobook.co.kr/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/PL_BookInfo-Start?barcode=9788995021668&ejk_gb=KOR&Click=Da *영풍문고 http://www.ypbooks.co.kr/cgi-bin/db2www/specdm.mbr/output?p_isbn=2128900010 =================================================================== 우리 인터넷, Daum http://www.daum.net 송금, 1/n청구, 회비걷기! 이메일 한통으로 해결한다 ☞ 메일뱅킹 http://mailbank.daum.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 19:49:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B76537B405; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.245.142.241.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.142.241] helo=mindspring.com) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15vV9H-0003IA-00; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:49:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3BD3893E.84367A3B@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:49:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Stephen McKay , Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> <20011022105743.B18153@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious > >> connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. > > > > After the celebrations in the streets of the West bank following the > > events of September 11th, I think you will find this a hard sell. > > You mean the stunt put on for the press? What makes you think that > that's the general opinion in the Middle East? Of course not. I also recognized some file footage of an unrelated holiday celebration being foiseted off by CNN as a "celebration of the bombing of the U.S.". I'm just telling you that it's going to be a hard sell, to get the U.S. to be sympathetic to the Palestinians. > > Before September 11th, it was possible to have sympathy for these > > people; now it is no longer possible. > > Because now the Americans have been hurt, and not only lots of people > over there who don't count because they believe in a different > religion? A lot of people who it was none of the U.S.'s business to correct their behaviour, since it was largely internal matters (or we would have attacked Afghanistan over the treatment of women, or Pol Pot over the murder of anyone who wore glasses). It's a fine line, what's internal vs. external. Crashing planes into U.S. targets makes it no longer internal. > > Looking at the Israeli/Palestinian situation from outside, it's > > really hard to understand what it is the Palestinians hope to > > achieve. > > For a certain definition of "outside", you're obviously correct. I'd > like to know that definition, though. These people lived in this > country for over a thousand years. The British occupied the country > and then gave part of it to immigrants. They fought and lost. Does > that make them vermin? No, it makes them displaced. Attacking Israel was just plain stupid, and now they are not only displaced, they're disposessed. That happens in war; I might have some sympathy, if they hadn't been the aggressors, and lost what they had trying to get away with something. > > It's clear they want self rule. I don't think anyone objects to > > that -- the problem is _where_ they want it: in land lost to them in > > war. > > Wasn't that what the Israelis wanted when they returned to Palestine? > Why should their cause be right and that of the Palestinians be wrong? > (Wrong answer: "because God said they should"). Because the state of Israel was formed as reparations for World War II... "because the rest of the world said they should". > > If the complaint is that the Israelis punish the group when an > > individual transgresses... I completely understand that policy: the > > U.S. might have been able to avoid the September 11th events, had it > > adopted a similar policy earlier. > > But isn't this what the Palestinians are trying too, with what methods > are available to them? Again, you're being very selective in your > allowance of this behaviour. Which individual are you claiming has transgressed? Realize, also, that The Social Contract only applies to the society of which you are a member, and not to all the world. > > If the complaint is that they react to stone-throwing by children > > with deadly force... I completely understand that policy, too: > > Of course, because they're Palestinian children. No. Because their parents should fully expect the response to such attacks to be the use of deadly force, and by tacitly approving the childrens attacks the soldiers anyway, they invite a response. If the Palestinians didn't want that response, in general, then they would better control the actions of their children. Such responses are probably condoned by the Palestinians, since the reprisals serve their cause in the formation of negative public opinion over the actions of the Israelis, so they don't control their children, and thus spend their lives in trade for the political capital they want. > > I think most people in the West see the correct reaction to > > Palestinians is to say "you lost; get over it, quit whining, and go > > on with your lives; if you don't like it, as Israeli citizens, you > > get to elect representatives, so elect people who will do what you > > want". > > That may be correct, but what right have people in the West to dictate > what happens to the Palestinians? People in the West do _not_ dictate what happens. It is the Palestinians who are courting the Western public opinion, in an attempt to remove support for Israel, so that they can repeat their past mistakes (attacking Israel), unhindered by the Wests support for Israel. But it is the Wests support for Israel that prevents an all-out blood bath, and it would not be the Israelis who would lose. > If you had been born in 1910, would you have written something > similar in 1938 about how these horrible Jews were being treated > in Germany? I would have condemned (and do condemn) the actions taken against the Jewish populations in Europe. The Palestinian situation is hardly comparable to the situation of the Jewish situation prior and during World War II. > I'm sure you'll come out and say "but that's nothing like the same > thing". Explain the principles (not the details) why not. The Jews were citizens of Germany, not of a foreign power which had attacked Germany, lost land to Germany, and then resorted to terrorist acts to try and get that land back. The Palestinians engaged in the terrorist acts are not citizens of Israel, but of a foreign power (Palestine), they attacked Isreal, they lost land to Israelm and they are now resorting to terrorist attacks to try and get the land back. If you want, we can also discuss sufferage, ownership of property, naturalization and deportation vs. death camps, etc.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 21 21:49:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnull.com (dnull.com [209.133.53.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545DA37B401 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jessem@localhost) by dnull.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13364 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:50:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jesse Monroy Message-Id: <200110220450.VAA13364@dnull.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SVBUG Special OS-X (10-24-2001) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Announcement for 2001-10-24 Topic: Special Event at Apple for OS-X Developers ***** SPECIAL EVENT NOTICE ***** Oct. 24, 2001 -- We will be meeting at Apple's Town Hall in a meeting sponsored by BANG (Bay Area Next Group). BANG is arranging to have the Darwin core team meet with us. That is, the people working on Darwin, the Open Source BSD-style Kernel from Apple, will be talking to us about the technical details of Darwin and OS-X. Please see the BANG (http://www.bang.org) page for details on how to get to this meeting. ***** END OF NOTICE ***** Next month, Nov 1st, Borland has promise to bring someone in to talk about Kylix, their new IDE. Best Regrads, Jesse To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 2: 3:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from best.llama.com (llama.com [63.194.69.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E609C37B406 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from the@localhost) by best.llama.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA14056; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from the) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:03:08 -0700 From: Sam Habash To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011022020308.A13531@llama.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> <20011021135816.A12222@llama.com> <3BD34EFC.D97448B4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BD34EFC.D97448B4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 03:41:00PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 03:41:00PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Sam Habash wrote: > > I didn't know that Palestinians in the occupied West Bank had > > citizenship. > > Your word usage makes your bias quite clear... It's not occupied, > it's territory won in war. To be occupied, a war would have to > be active right now: No, the word usage is accurate and factual. I did not mean for it to connotate a charged meaning, since you are attempting to ascertain my "bias". The CIA Factbook supports my usage. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html See the caption to the picture at the top. "West Bank is Israeli occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permament status to be determined through further negotiation." With that said, I see no apparent contradiction between us here. A territory can be both won in warfare and occupied by the victors. > | Main Entry: oc톍u톚y > | Pronunciation: '�-ky&-"pI > | Function: transitive verb > | Inflected Form(s): -pied; -py톓ng > | Etymology: Middle English occupien to take possession of, occupy, > | modification of Middle French occuper, from Latin occupare, from \ > | ob- toward + -cupare (akin to capere to seize) -- more at OB-, HEAVE > | Date: 14th century > [ ... ] > | 3 a : to take or hold possession or control of | the ridge> > > So either it's not "the occupied West Bank", or you are claiming > that there is an active war in progress, in which case, they are > defending themselves. I find the dictionary reference somewhat unnecessary. The word "occupied" isn't exactly obscure. Again, I see no contradiction, I would certainly expect Israel to defend Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria whether or not I or anybody else believes that their presence in that region is justified or not, so I fail to see exactly the point you are trying to make. > > Maybe Israel should have just annexed "Judea and Samaria", so > > that the "Palestinians" there could have done just that. > > I think they didn't because the Palestinians there didn't > attack them, so the Israeli's didn't kick their butt and > take their land, like they kicked the butt of the Palestinians > on the West bank. Er, Terry, "Judea and Samaria" refers *to* the West Bank, as those are the biblical names of the land in question. That you didn't recognize their equivalence is somewhat significant. ;-) The term is typically used by Israelis in an attempt to justify full annexation by alluding to the historical Jewish presence there, but it seems that the usage may be fairly mainstream, as the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, a government website, uses the term. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0hbb0 has a nice map showing which areas purport to be under the full control of the PA, which areas still have Israel retain "overriding security authority.", and which areas are as yet pending negotiation. I don't know how fluid the lines are in reality, the map in question is a year and a half old. (Of course, that the government consists of a Likud-led coalition still does not negate the offical nature of the usage) > > If the Israels didn't have to deal with that very question, > > they would have done so long, long ago. 34 years later, we see > > the consequences of leaving the question of the West Bank and Gaza > > up in the air. > > You're right. It was a huge strategic blunder, which I'm > sure they regret. My point is that they have had 34 years to rectify this. Israel -did- annex East Jerusalem, and gave the option of residency or citizenship to the residents there, which was taken up by more than half of the inhabitants. However, the September 1995 interim agreement between Israel and the Palestinians was to have Israel agree that residents of East Jerusalem could vote and run in elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council. The elections actually occured in early 1996. (source: http://www.jqf-jerusalem.org/journal/1999/jqf5/usher.html) It goes without saying that had Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza as well, we would not have seen such maneuverings. I'm sure the best interests of the residents were not factored in (they're the losers, right?), but it would have saved both Israel and the Palestinians from much of the suffering we see now for the lands seized from Jordan and Egypt in the 1967 war. I should reread the history of Israel during that era... > > Relatively little is mentioned in the US about the Israeli Arabs > > who -have done- and -do- just as you been asking. > > That's because we don't have news stories about things that > work, only about things that don't work. Be that as it may, it is still noteworthy. I would guess that Israeli Arabs feel they have much more to lose than the ones that reside in the West Bank and GAza. > > Oh, but they aren't Palestinians then, right? > > I think that they could probably be fairly identified as > Palestinian-Israeli's. Is that a usage similar to "African-American"? I initially thought so, but 'African' obviously doesn't refer to a nationality, but to the continent that was home to the descendants of slaves. The most common term I've heard for them is "Israeli Arabs"...for a long time, use of the word "Palestinian" was verboten, since it depicted a national group that had a competing claim to Israel proper. An equivalent term for a group in the US would be "American Indians"... which of course while not being totall unacceptable, isn't the most "politically correct" term. > I think it would be idiotic to do that; it seperates you > from the people around you when you hyphenate the name of > your nationality to put another nationality first. There would be very specific historic circumstances that would preclude that particular usage, as I've noted above. I have relatives that live in Israel proper, and I've never heard such hyphenization. I doubt if they even would recognize such a construction. They most likely see themselves as Arabs who live in Israel, while citizens by law, they cannot be a part of Chosen people, and thus are diminished culturally and nationally. I'm reaching for analogies, the best one I can come up with (which is still fairly weak) is how a non-Mormon would feels living in Utah. > Much of the (much milder) problems in the U.S. stem from > self identification into groups, and the leaders of those > groups keeping the seperation intact in order to obtain > some measure of political or economic power, at the expense > of the people the "lead". This is a common theory American conservatives have put forth. I'm not sure the problems have been much milder for all cases, given the history of the descendents of slaves that were brought here as well as the descendents of the native peoples that were subjugated and forced to live on reservations. I think it's true with respect to the measure of political or enconomic power in play, but there also may be cases of this being a collective decision rather than the machinations of "race leaders". I'm thinking of Irish or Italian-Americans specifically...perhaps in those cases, self identification stems from a desire to preserve some bit of cultural identity, since as time went on, there was very little stigma associated with the ethnicities, which is of course not the case with some of the other groups. The saddest case is that of the Yiddish-speaking community, which I believe must be almost completely extinct by now, having been subsumed by both the adoption Hebrew/Zionist/Israeli ideals and by outright assimilation. > If it were up to me, it would be illegal to ask for any > information on ethnicity, former nationality, etc., even > on government forms -- including census forms. People > are not their enthicity, nor are they their former > nationality, once they have citizenship. Very well, but there are aspects to citizens' lives where ethnicity/nationality can do come into play that no amount of legislation can erase. Just ask citizens of Arabic extraction who have been stopped and detained at airports. I presume this should be illegal as well, while the authorities are denying this is going on, there's enough anecdotal evidence to question the official account. > Some of the problems in Oakland, CA, which has the highest > concentration of Afghani immigrants of any city in the U.S., > are because we are identifying these people as being in a > group distinct from all other Americans: Afghan-Americans. > It damn well doesn't matter where they came from: they are > just Americans, now, like the rest of the U.S. citizenry. Maybe. I wonder how they feel. I suspect that they are more ambivalent than you might be, even though most are probably here because Afghanistan has been in turmoil long before the group known as the Taliban came to power. > > I find this interesting reading: > > > > http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/arabstat.html > > Me too. The results of a seperatist educational system are > fairly clear in the resulting society. Perhaps one of the > reasons the U.S. has been so successful at homogenizing its > people is the forced integration of schools, beginning in > the 1960's. Well, the two most interesting statements in that piece were: "Israelis all recognize that Arab villages have historically received less funding than Jewish areas and this has affected the quality of Arab schools, infrastructure, and social services." (emphasis on the first three words) and... "Israeli Arabs also face their own conflicts as Palestinians in a Jewish state. While identifying with the Palestinian people and disputing Israel's identification as a Jewish state, they see their future tied to Israel. They have adopted Hebrew as a second language and Israeli culture as an extra layer in their lives. At the same time, they strive to attain a higher degree of participation in national life, greater integration into the economy and more benefits for their own towns and villages." It sounds like they have to work harder to maintain their dual identification. I'm not sure the separatism is entirely by choice... the historical circumstances, as well as fairly limited social contact with the dominant group keeping intermarriage rare. Not to mention that some segments of Israeli society remain prejudiced against Arabs...whether this prejudice is justified or not is a different question that I don't need to address for the purposes of this argument. I'm glossing over some points, this reply is becoming long enough as it is. > > Overall, it's bad to look to Israel as a "guiding light" in > > such matters...I really do not care to adopt the tactics of a > > garrison state, despite what the Israeli lobby in the > > United States would like for Americans to pay, er, think... > > assssination and collective punishment have no place in societies > > dedicated to preserving the rule of law, period...the terrorists > > would like for nothing better than to have their purported victims > > continue their dirty work. > > This is a common anti-death-penalty stance, regardless of > the method of imposition. We need to remind ourselves that > the purpose of any penalty, ge it a fine, imprisonment, or > even death at the hands of the state, is _not_ rehabilitation > of the criminal, and _not_ punishment of the criminal: it is, > instead, intended as an object lesson to the society, of the > penalty for antisocial behaviour. In fact, to this day, we > still call it "the penal system". I know. However, I question whether the object lesson qualifies as anything more than a drop in the bucket given the high degree of entropy in societies that, for better or worse, continue to misaddress the roots of violence. This is not to say that there are some people that are sociopaths even under the best of circumstances...I have somewhat anarchistic leanings...find all of them an island (space will work in the future) and let them figure out their own rules or kill each other off. The price of the lesson, especially given the families of victims waiting years for the wheels of the justice system to grind, with no closure, and that the color of one's skin or the quality of legal representation are factors, not to mention situations where innocents have been put to death, may be too high to make it worthwhile. Not to mention that all of this is monstrously expensive. > > Yes, I am a US citizen. Yes, I am "Palestinian" by national origin. > > No, you're not a Palestinian. You are an American. If your > national origin was Plastinian, it doesn't matter: when you > obtained U.S. citizenship, you forswore all loyalties to all > other nations. I meant to say I am a Palestinian Arab by national origin/ethnicity. not by birth...I was born in San Francisco. Is it safe to say that identifying my family national origin/ethnicity is germane for the purpose of this discussion? I don't know. Maybe not. But we would find it silly to make the same argument for those born to German parents...it's certainly safe for them say they are of German stock. > > I do not believe that a state run by Arafat's Fatah would be in the > > best interest of anybody who values freedom and democracy, since > > Arafat and his organization are corrupt, murderous thugs that > > have used the plight of the Palestinian people for their own > > advantage. > > Yes. Exactly as the self-identification seperatist organizations > in the U.S. are used by their leaders. Ah, I see what you were getting at earlier. I don't think there's anything special about self-identified separatist organizations that make them particulary susceptable to corruption, except maybe for the need of the followers to have charismatic leadership, which may leave them in a more vulnerable position. I am also not completely comfortable with the 'freedom and democracy' formuation as put forth by certain American interests...there have been too many instances where these were really codewords for "American hegemony" (protecting oil interests in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, neither of whom are particularly democratic or free) > > However, I am not one to contest the will of the people there, as > > misguided as I feel that it is. > > Clearly, this is the general U.S. perspective, or we would > have intervened in the internal affairs of many more nations, > and Afghanistan in particular, well before events dictated we > must. I also suspect that America does not act overtly unless its material interests are threatened. But I also suspect we are engaging ourselves in Afghanistan due to the masterminds behind the terrorist attacks wanting us to get quagmired in inhospitable, forbidding territory. All it took was a single suicide bomber killing hundreds of soldiers to cause us to withdraw our peacekeepers in Lebanon in the early 80s. > > Or are we truly against self-determination because Palestinians > > are all terrorists and deserve to have their houses demolished, > > their people arrested, beaten, and tortured, etc.? > > Clearly not. The U.S., I think, is all for the participation > of citizens in the duly constituted governmental processes of > the region in which they reside. Insofar as the Israeli lobby in the United States has not exerted their substantial influence to counteract this. Do we care about reassuring those who we are brokering for that we can support them, or do we have to be honest about whatever biases we bring to the table for these sorts of negotiations. > What this means for Palestinians is that, so long as they > live on Israeli soil, they are subject to Israeli rule. > They may not like the fact that it's Israeli soil, but > Israeli soil it is, and that is unlikely to ever change. The interim agreements have complicated all this, unless you were referring to Israel proper. > > The Israelis, as rotten as their record has been--Ariel Sharon himself > > is *directly responsible* for thousands of civilian deaths (c.f. > > http://electronicintifada.net/forreference/keyfigures/sharon.html)-- > > at least *have* a track record as a pluralistic, multiethnic society. > > Only partially; your earlier reference indicated a distinct > lack of multiethnicity in the primary education system. I think neither Arabs nor Jews there care to co-mingle very much, since they don't live amongst one another. I didn't read anything. about Israeli busing Arab minority children around to predominantly Jewish schools (or vice-versa). > I have to say that your Intifada reference backs up my past > conclusion that Israel has been strangely tolerant. > > Historically, most nations winning land in war have either put > the indiginous population to the knife or forcibly naturalized > them (destroying their cultural individuality, in the process). > The U.S. did this with a vengence on several occasions, as have > most nations which have survived to this day. I think you make a good case here, but an occupation that is only about a tenth as violent as a typical case still has enough violence to keep those who keep track of such things busy until the end of their days. One doesn't have to peek into the sausage factory to decide to remain ignorant about what goes into the frank. I'm just puzzled why they did not outright annex their winnings? I know this question sounds odd given where I'm from and what I'm expected to support (that's why I mentioned my origins). The cynic in me would argue that keeping the residents of Gaza and the West Bank marginalized would act as a burr in the side of the other Arab nations, and be used as a pretext for Israel to solicit US military and financial aid. > > Despite the massive economic and emotional toll their occupation of the > > West Bank has inflicted, and the shocking level which the Israeli > > lobby will go to protect continued US aid, and the corrupting influence > > of said aid, I hold a fleeting hope that Israel will come to its senses > > and not continue on its path of brutality and aggression. > > > > I liked it much better when the chat was about FreeBSD, but there's no > > chance of that happening any time soon, is there? > > I think the sooner people realize that the U.S. is not > playing at a war on terroism, the sooner they will quit > trying to cast the events of September 11th as a result > of U.S. policy, and realize that the terrorists ultimately > are responsible for their own actions, regardless of what > "provocation" may or may not exist. The U.S. _will_ hold > them responsible for their actions, and the U.S. _will not_ > permit terrorist acts to control U.S. foreign policy. That remains to be seen, though I don't follow that the casting of what happened on 9/11 as a result of U.S. policy means that the U.S. response will be half-hearted, on the contrary...the U.S framed the events as not just a crime, but an act of war, which certainly agrees with the way antagonists have decided that all Americans are fair game in their struggle. I suspect that despite the original enthusiam to stage massive forces, that this war will be fought by remote (aerial bombardment) and proxy (Northern Alliance troops) for as long as possible, in order to minimize American casualties, both in the fighting and to reduce the possibility of further terrorist attacks on the troops themselves. However, this can backfire if the Taliban or whoever is still around a few months from now. > Do not expect the U.S. position on the Israeli/Palestinian > situation to change as a result of the attack; expect the > U.S. position to become even more firmly entrenched. If we > even suspect that the motivation was over a particular U.S. > foreign policy issue, expect a knee-jerk reaction opposite > of the one the terrorists wanted to force us into. I would expect that the U.S position would move even closer to the Israeli position as the mainline Fatah movment loses influence in favor of the more extremist groups, some of whom surely aided or at least were sympathetic to the goals and aims of the terrorist groups identified as the culprits behind the 9/11 attacks. I suspect this is fine with Israel, as the PLO at least could play the sympathy card to get the support from the usual bunch suspects, whereas the extremists have little support outside of their people. Of course, the Israeli position is what is the true moving target, since the Israelis have little interest in anything other than the status quo, if my earlier wild speculation was anywhere near the target, even factoring in the cost of committing military personnel to the West Bank and Gaza, as well as watching them pushed aside to the sidelines so as not to antagonize the "coalition- building" among some of our Arab "allies". There were reports earlier today of both Senator Lieberman and McCain questioning whether Egypt and Saudi Arabia have done all they could to support the U.S. cause...is this an indicator that most of the Arab states have long harbored terrorists? Now that would be a shocker, about as much as the U.S aiding the Pakistani dictatorship as well as the bandit warlords that oppose the Taliban theocracy. Interesting times ahead. Take care, --Sam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 2:53: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2062F37B401 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9M9qll46082 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:52:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA29713 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:52:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:52:46 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Elden Fenison Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011022115246.B28419@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Elden Fenison , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> <20011020174707.E732@moondog.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011020174707.E732@moondog.org>; from moon_dog@spamcop.net on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:47:07PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Elden Fenison said on Oct 20, 2001 at 17:47:07: > * On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 11:43:45AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Each of these things has a counter-argument, of course, but surely > > Christianity has many definitions, and people shouldn't casually speak > > as if it has only one. Same for "free software" - that other > > religion. > > Point taken. I guess I could be labeled a "fundementalist". (which I > have no problem with) I've always believed that the Bible is the > foundation and authoritative definition of the Christian faith and any > thinking or teaching "called" Christian should be measured against it. In that case, I'll be interested to know how you react to this article on certain Biblical commandments: http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=325 (and if you claim that they're overruled by the New Testament, I'd like to know where.) (As I said earlier, the reason I like Buddhism is that it permits and encourages questioning. In fact, the Buddha himself was overruled on several issues by members of his Sangha, notably on the issue of admitting women as members: he opposed their entry initially, but was persuaded to allow them in by his disciples.) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 3:10:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1705D37B401; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9MAAVl48505 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:10:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA30923 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:10:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:10:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , Stephen McKay , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011022121026.C28419@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com> <20011022105743.B18153@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011022105743.B18153@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:57:43AM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey said on Oct 22, 2001 at 10:57:43: > > After the celebrations in the streets of the West bank following the > > events of September 11th, I think you will find this a hard sell. > > You mean the stunt put on for the press? What makes you think that > that's the general opinion in the Middle East? The media is a remarkable thing in forming opinions and attributing them to other people. To read a different angle, from an American student who actually lives in Palestine doing his doctoral research, unlike the rest of us who just watch TV, see http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fname=andrew&fodname=20010918&secname= This article is about the days immediately after September 11; today the mood may be quite different. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 3:25:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3555037B405 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9MAPHl50614 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA31917 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:25:17 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011022122517.D28419@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Salvo Bartolotta , Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 09:38:14PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Oct 20, 2001 at 21:38:14: > At 04:33 PM 10/20/2001, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > >I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" Islam at > >all. > > You are correct. In fact, according to Islamic law and doctrine, the > creation or even the advocacy of a "moderate" Islam is itself punishable > by immoderate measures (i.e. death). That hasn't stopped people from trying. Read about Sufi Islam, for example. And Turkey is one country which has tried very hard to have a "moderate" Islamic face, with the result that many of the more hardline states cordially dislike it. Christian states were equally barbaric a few hundred years ago. If they aren't today, it's because religion (apart from a ritual invoking of God's name) has ceased to be important to most people; more importantly, the clergy are no longer the ones who wield power, and can't tell people what to do. And as mails on this list have shown, there are still plenty of Christians today who will not accept that a single word of the Bible can be wrong. Was it these rabid Muslims who bombed all those abortion clinics not so long ago? I didn't think so. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 3:26:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A6E37B405 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA07548; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 04:25:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022042425.04240f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 04:25:27 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Elden Fenison From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011022115246.B28419@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011020174707.E732@moondog.org> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> <20011020174707.E732@moondog.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:52 AM 10/22/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >In that case, I'll be interested to know how you react to this >article on certain Biblical commandments: >http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=325 >(and if you claim that they're overruled by the New Testament, I'd >like to know where.) Ironically, that text DOES remind me of Richard Stallman. Software isn't "pure" unless it's GPLed... AND he controls the project. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 4:35:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECE137B401 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 04:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15vdLr-000JKO-00; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:34:39 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15vdM2-0001U5-00; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:34:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:34:50 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: I'll be in Europe in November. Anything interesting to do? Message-ID: <20011022123450.A5489@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011016131144.E67583@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011016131144.E67583@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:11:45PM +0930 X-Scanner: exiscan *15vdLr-000JKO-00*$AK$bZW0GBtrUNqg5O5vZsWxi0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 16, Greg Lehey wrote: > I'll be going to the EuroBSDCon next month. Since it's at the other > end of the world, it seems like a good idea to do something else while > I'm there. Does anybody have any suggestions? The Con is in England, > of course, but I'm not limiting myself to England. I know you sent this nearly a week ago, but I'm only just now getting around to clearing out the inbox after a week of the flu. I will also be at BSDcon Europe in mid-November. I am, however, at a loss to suggest what else to do whilst in Europe. You (like me) are going to find yourself on the South Cost of England (Brighton) in the middle of November. This is not a wholly unpleasant experience, although there isn't a huge amount that presents itself. Other than the bleak skies. Huge waves. Chilling winds. Oh yeah, and isn't it Brighton that has a Gay Village? So at least there is a guarantee of some open-minded nightlife. :-) I do know that in the days leading up to the conf, there is a PHP conference over in Germany - http://www.php-conference.de/2001/index_en.php - which I considered going to, but will be unable to attend. You might consider it worth the entrance, plus the chance to get schloozled in Frankfurt. If they had had this in October, then the Oktoberfest would have been well worth visiting. :-) Otherwise, the only thing I can suggest is to go and do your Christmas shopping. You're less than an hour away on the train from London, or a few hour away by air from anywhere in Europe (after you get to London). Of course, you could always go to the Alps to do some ski-ing/babe-watching. Something I'm considering myself. If you really are at a loss, I'm always willing to be your amiable drinking partner. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 4:52:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993BF37B401 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 04:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9MBqjl62005 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:52:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA35531 ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:52:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:52:45 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: I'll be in Europe in November. Anything interesting to do? Message-ID: <20011022135245.F28419@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011016131144.E67583@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20011022123450.A5489@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011022123450.A5489@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:34:50PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson said on Oct 22, 2001 at 12:34:50: > On Oct 16, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > I'll be going to the EuroBSDCon next month. Since it's at the other > > end of the world, it seems like a good idea to do something else while > > I'm there. Does anybody have any suggestions? The Con is in England, > > of course, but I'm not limiting myself to England. ... > Otherwise, the only thing I can suggest is to go and do your Christmas > shopping. You're less than an hour away on the train from London, or a few > hour away by air from anywhere in Europe (after you get to London). I'm in Paris, which is 3 hours away from London by train, less by air, and there's much to see and do here though I'm not aware of anything of specific interest to BSD types... If you do pass by, I'd be quite interested in meeting you and having some beers, after having seen your names for so long on the lists. I could explore possibilities for accommodation too; my own abode is probably too petit... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 4:56: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1AE37B401 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 04:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E770A14C2E; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:55:57 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Elden Fenison , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) References: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011019203955.0464d920@localhost> <20011020004426.A45044@moondog.org> <20011020174707.E732@moondog.org> <20011022115246.B28419@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Oct 2001 13:55:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20011022115246.B28419@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Point taken. I guess I could be labeled a "fundementalist" [...] > In that case, I'll be interested to know how you react to this > article on certain Biblical commandments: > [...] Please move this discussion off-list. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 16:58:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4D237B401; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9MNvuw14973; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:57:56 +0200 (CEST) To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <1003795076.3bd4b2841fae7@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:57:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> <1003661097.3bd2a72959115@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011022094739.F99042@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20011022094739.F99042@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.171.247 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 12:44:57 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 0:33:07 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta > wrote: > >>> > >>> I am not sure whether the same could be said of the Koran. > >>> Recently, I have spoken with a few historians of religion, among > >>> others. I was explicitly told that the "organic design" contained > >>> in the Koran is one of the worst forms of _totalitarianism_. In > >>> particular, the "moderate" parts in the Koran are only a means to > an > >>> end. > >> > >> I've tried to read the Quran, and I've found it very hard going. > The > >> Bible is a model of clarity by comparison. The Quran brings home > very > >> forcibly that its scribe was not a learned man. I don't think you > can > >> interpret much more into its form. > > > > By the way, as far as I can see on the 'Net for now, there WAS a > > fine pre-islamic culture (which had points of contact with Veda). > > Mr Muhammad felt it his duty to destroy that culture. > > > > The best-known example of this kind of attitude/behavio(u)r is the > > destruction of Alexandria's library: thousands of scrolls (~ > > 700.000?) were burnt -- because either they were in contradiction > > with the Koran or they had the same contents as the Koran [sic!]. > > Well, I'll have to RTFM on these topics before speaking. :-) > > Yes, you should have done. The library in Alexandria was burnt down ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I had, I have, and I always will. RTFM^WUnix is a way of life. :-) > in 412, hundreds of years before the birth of Mohammed, by Christian > monks in the name of Christianity. > http://members.iinet.net.au/~nicke/library/library.htm . This link is not available now. I'll try again later. AFAIR, my history textbooks attributed the destruction of the library to the Muslims; and my high school teachers gave me this version. Let's go on. In his "Storia della Matematica" (~ History of Mathematics), Carl B. Boyer speaks of the destruction of the library on the part of the Muslims. In his "Mathematical Thought from Ancient to Modern Times" (I have an Italian translation of this work for the time being), Morris Kline writes:
[...] Alexandria received the final blow when the insurrectionist Muslims conquered Egypt in 640 A.D. The remaining books were destroyed for the reason stated by Omar, the arab conqueror: "Either the books contain what is in the Koran, and therefore it is not necessary to read them; or they contain the opposite of what is in the Koran, and therefore we must not read them." Thus for six months Alexandria's baths were warmed by burning parchment scrolls.
At the end of the chapter, Professor Kline gives the following bibliography: -- Cajory, Florian, "A History of Mathematics", 2nd ed. MAcMillan, 1919; -- Gibbon, Edward, "The decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (many editions) -- Parsons, Edward a., The Alexandrian Library, The Elsevier Press, 1952. [ You guessed right. Inter alia, I'll most probably have a look at Parson's book. :-) ] Oh, and the preceding part (the first omissis [...] above) refers to Christianity: From the standpoint of the history of Mathematics, the advent of Christianity had unfortunate consequences. [...] Christians were forbidden to contaminate themselves with Greek culture. [...] Some fanatic Christians [*] tore to pieces a famous mathematician, Hypatia. Thousands of Greek books were burnt. [...] It is believed that about 300,000 [Greek] manuscripts were destroyed [**]. Many other works written on parchment were wiped out by Christians so that they would reuse the parchments for their purposes. Many Greek scholars left the country. [...] I am well aware that barbarians^W_Christians_ burnt a lot of Greek "books"; on the other hand, I am profoundly aware that, in the Middle Ages, thousands of Christian monks carefully copied a _very large_ number of classical "books" so that they might reach us. If I had a one-sided attitude, apart from dismissing/minimizing Christian atrocities, I would probably observe that the number of items burnt by the Muslims was far greater. I might probably also take into account thousands of volumes destroyed in the eastern conquests -- but I have to RTFM more on this part, as I said. I am not interested in the maths of burnt scrolls, or in the (ante litteram) Guinness of the burnt scrolls. The point I was making is clear: in a well-defined historical period, Islam (in its purest ie full-blown totalitarian form) caused Culture serious, terrible damage. You had just remarked that Mohammed didn't appear to be a very learned man. N.B. I did NOT say that _all_ Islamic-related civilization has _always_ caused damage. The development of eg algebra in the Middle Ages being a trivial counter-example. To complete the picture, it should be remarked that other religions, as well as ideologies (just think of Mr Hitler in the past century) practised this, er, book-burning sport -- to a varying extent of selectiveness/destructiveness. [*] I call a spade a spade: here I would say "some _barbarians_, in the name of Christ,...". Barbarian [regardless of religion] is a barbarian is a barbarian. Period. [**] Here Kline refers to the destruction of the Serapide's temple by Christians. > >> You mean the Eastern story of the atrocities committed by > >> Christians? Those were violent times. I don't think the Muslims > >> something like 700were worse than the Christians. > > > > I was referring to Islamic atrocities in the East (eg India). I had > > been reading some material about that on the 'Net (cf Hindu > > Holocaust). l'll have to RTFM on this, too. :-) > > Yes, do that. If you search the 'Net, you'll find references. BTW, I was referring to RFTMing serious _written material_, and I am going to do that in the next few weeks/months. > >>> I now gather that, at a doctrinal level, there exists no "moderate" > >>> Islam at all. > >> > >> Could you explain that? There may be fewer Muslims who just pay lip > >> service to their religion than there are Christians, but I wouldn't > >> even be sure about that. I grew up in Malaysia, a country with > Islam > >> as its state religion. While I don't approve at all of enforced > >> religion (if you're Malay, you *must* be Muslim), until this Mulslim > >> fundamentalism thing sprung up, I found Islam a very gentle > religion. > >> For most people, it still is. > > > > "Moderate interpreters" simply discard certain parts of the Koran. > > They do the same with the bible. > > Deuteronomy 7:1-3 > > When the LORD your God brings you to the land that you are about to > invade and occupy, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I read something like "to take possession" here. Never mind. > and He dislodges many nations before you--the > Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, > and Jebusiites, seven nations much larger than you---and the LORD > your God delivers them to you and you defeat them, you must doom > them to destruction: grant them no terms and give them no quarter. > > What does this mean if you interpret it literally? And you know there > are dozens of such arguments. There is a historical development (a divine perspective/plan/whatever_you_like_to_call_it) -- or if you prefer, God spoke at different times, saying different things (appropriate to different historical times). The books were NOT all written at the same time. Despite the initial privilidged position of Israel in God's salvation plan (the OT), in the OT itself there ARE references to the universality of salvation (eg Is. 49-6). AFAIK/R, there are no references to an endlosung for __all non-elected peoples__. Not to mention the fact that the most important/conclusive/completing/definitive part (cf Mt 5,17-48) is the NT. More RTFM needed, though -- I am not a biblist. OT message (and language) is far from easy. The study of civilizations of the Near East has had a number of far-reaching consequences. For instance, there are points of contact between biblical Israel and those civilizations. Also, rather than a group of "Indo-european" dialects at the root of all "Indo-european" languages, there is an Akkadian/Sumerian matrix for the languages formerly known as "Indo-European". A noteworthy result of these studies being the clarification of Anaximander's "apeiron", which is NOT the "infinite" or "indeterminate", but the "dust" (cf G. Semerano, "the Infinite"). Oooops, sorry, I am getting more off-topic than ever. > > Whence the image of gentle religion. Thus, however, they betray the > > actual totalitarian doctrin underlying the Koran; fundamentalists > > don't. > > This is a very one-sided argument. I am afraid the actual nature of Islam is totalitarian, whether you like it or not. This does NOT prevent a number of Muslims from being good and nice people -- thanks to the action of "moderate intepreters". > >>> Of course, strong political reasons make all western political > >>> leaders speak of ahem "moderate Islam". > >> > >> As opposed to moderate Christianity or moderate Judaism? Members of > >> all three religions continue to commit atrocities in the name of > their > >> religion. > > > > Christ != Muhammad > > Your point? Christ did not commit atrocities. He said nothing like "Go kill all those unbelievers in my name, and I'll give you 72 virgins in the afterlife" AFAIR, Buddha never said "Please, please, please, go kill all those who don't accept my ideas." IMO, those who commit atrocities in the name of Christ (or any other peaceful thinker) are __twice__ barbarians. Pretty clear. > > Bruno and Galileo (a _Catholic_ scientist) were well-known examples > of > > "Christian" intolerance. I am afraid this has nothing to do with what > Christ > > said, though. More generally, "Christian" misdoings have very little > to do > > with the NT. These so-called "Christians" were actually barbarians > (cf eg the > > crusades) -- of the worst kind. > > > > Religio instrumentum regni. In the Middle Ages (and later: cf Bruno, > > Galileo), a number of "popes" applied this very ancient principle of > politics. > > > > Incidentally, Matthew says: "Nolite possidere aurum neque argentum > neque > > pecuniam in zonis vestris non peram in via neque duas tunicas neque > > calciamenta neque virgam dignus enim est operarius cibo suo [...]". > This is > > not exactly in harmony with the existence of a rich _State_ of the > Church, > > namely with "popes" pursuing _temporal_ power and interests. To the > shame of > > all Christianity per omnia saecula saeculorum. > > So what are you getting at? When they betray their own moral doctrine (viz. the NT), Christians are __twice__ barbarians. The above examples show the contradiction between _principles_ and _behavio(u)r/policy_. By contrast, the Muslims who commit misdoings (such as killing the unbelievers) are simply following their doctrine. So they are just _once_ barbarians. :-) I'll repeat it once again, just in case: regardless of one's own moral principles (if any...), rose is a rose^W^W^W^Wbarbarian is a barbarian is a barbarian. > > By contrast, Islamic atrocities are in full harmony with what Mr > > Muhammad himself, a very, erm, "gentle" prophet > > I didn't say that. > > ("THE Prophet"), said, did, and wrote. > > Can you give me a quotation? Mohammed's life is probably the best quotation. Incidentally, www.secularislam.org is an interesting site. There are others (cf Hindu Holocaust). I'll have to RTFM enough written material to get a more detailed/unbiased/balanced picture, though. N.B. I am surprised at the _universality_ of the NT -- think eg of women: _women_ are the first witnesses of Christ's resurrection, at a time when they hardly had any rights, and even fewer as witnesses (!). Thus, I consider as the worst barbarians those who commit crimes in the name of Christ, or of any other peaceful thinker. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 18:25: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 59E2A37B407 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21262 invoked by uid 50005); 23 Oct 2001 01:19:52 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpe with qmail-scanner-1.00 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.505784 secs); 23 Oct 2001 01:19:52 -0000 Received: from du111.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.111]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Oct 2001 01:19:51 -0000 Message-ID: <3BD4C6D2.A012EC43@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:24:34 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011021101345.A28033@wantadilla.lemis.com> <1003661097.3bd2a72959115@webmail.neomedia.it> <20011022094739.F99042@wantadilla.lemis.com> <1003795076.3bd4b2841fae7@webmail.neomedia.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Yes, you should have done. The library in Alexandria was burnt down > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I had, I have, and I always will. RTFM^WUnix is a way of life. :-) > > > > in 412, hundreds of years before the birth of Mohammed, by Christian > > monks in the name of Christianity. > > http://members.iinet.net.au/~nicke/library/library.htm . > > This link is not available now. I'll try again later. > > AFAIR, my history textbooks attributed the destruction of the library to the > Muslims; and my high school teachers gave me this version. Let's go on. Alexandria was sacked many times. This page: http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm purports to look at the sources, and concludes that the library's books were burned by Caesar's troops. I can't vouch for it, but it sounds credible. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 22 21:37:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F55F37B403 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18804; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:37:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022121909.04230b70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:32:17 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Terry Lambert , Elden Fenison , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011022122517.D28419@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 AM 10/22/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Christian states were equally barbaric a few hundred years ago. If >they aren't today, it's because religion (apart from a ritual invoking >of God's name) has ceased to be important to most people; more >importantly, the clergy are no longer the ones who wield power, and >can't tell people what to do. And as mails on this list have shown, >there are still plenty of Christians today who will not accept that a >single word of the Bible can be wrong. Including the commandment in the Old Testament to commit genocide? Yes, that's right: there is one. Look in the section of Exodus where the Israelites have just fled Egypt are attacked from behind by a tribe which the text identifies as the Amalekites. "Remember Amalek," says God unto Moses, instructing the Israelites to wipe out the entire tribe and all of its descendents. The notion of God commanding genocide was so repugnant, even to the relatively primitive Jews of that era, that by the time of the Roman Empire the Pharisees (who codified Jewish law in the Talmud) did everything they could to rationalize it away. IIRC, they said that since no one knew who the descendents of the Amalekites were, one could not and should not attempt to carry it out. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 4:28: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.noos.fr (verlaine.noos.net [212.198.2.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CCAE37B403 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 40364702 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 2001 11:23:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO C) ([212.198.39.178]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.73 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Oct 2001 11:23:34 -0000 Message-ID: <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> From: "yvan" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> Subject: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:23:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Speaking of religion, if Judeo-Christianism is the 'good' vs evil religion Islam: How could US good Christians colonized and exterminated American Indians. How come they used Blacks as slaves and discriminated them as low as 'for black and dogs here' until 1960's! Mussolini, Franco and Hitler were Christians. Sharon with its responsibilities for killing thousands of Palestinians since the 70's is Jewish. How could the American Army made a large scale radiation test on the black community in 50's knowing they were so poor they would accept! How could the US dropped 2 nuclear bombs on CIVILIANS and put the American-Japanese Californian community into concentration-camps during the war?! Back in the days when Saddam Hussein was the US friend because he was killing millions of Iranians and even using chemical warfare against civilians, did US and occidental countries did anything to prevent this massacre? No they did not. But when Saddam Hussein sends 10 Scuds on Israel all the media make you believe that there is a great risk of a chemical warfare which never happened!? Israel's potential threats are far more important than millions of Iranian lives. Why did US perpetrate many coups killing thousands in South-America against democratically elected presidents because they were Socialists?! If it is a 'free' country how come they have 'black-listed' Hollywood directors, actors and authors that were known to be communist!? What about the war crimes and atrocities committed against Filipino by US Army in 1899!? What about Vietnam?! What about the unconditional support to Israel, a country made of extremists colonizers thinking Palestine is their country because the bible say so (If you agree give US back to Indians it is 300 years old only)!? Why do US support Arab Gulf Monarchies if you care about democracy and women's right?! Why is US bombing Iraq (still nowadays) and not Israel because of fuzzy UN resolutions when Israel has 2 extremely important resolutions pending against them by the UN since the 60's (where is justice in all of that!)?! Why are their still discriminations and police brutalities against the black community?! Why more than 3 millions people are into jails if you live in a perfect world?! Why death penalty and why it is live on TV like Timothy McVeil (even the Taliban are not that advanced on this topic)!? Why does some good Americans Christians kill abortion practitioners? Why the good American Christian president does gets his dick sucked in his office and then lies to the whole population and to his wife?! Why are they some many rapes in the US for a country that care some much about human and women rights (Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. Between 1995 and 1996, more than 670,000 women were the victim of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. [National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1997.])!? The list could go on and on. What surprises me is to see how 'good' Americans think they are when they do not realize what their government has been doing for so long, a foreign policy aimed for profit and interest vs a foreign policy of heart and sensibility. All I want to say is open you eyes first on yourself before criticizing Islam or any countries and/or religion in the world through what you see on TV or what your government tells you what is good or bad. I consider US an ally and a friend but I think US gov should stop manipulating public opinions by making people believe they are 'there' for the sake of humanity when it is totally false. Islam is a very tolerant religion. Most of the Muslims I know are by far less inclined to clich�s and violence as most Americans. Most westerners (like me) are victims of an americano-sionist propaganda that has demonized Islam to better manipulate their public opinion which seems to be working fairly well in a world of appearances and a need for instantaneity. Most Arabs countries and their people are very distant from a hardcore Islamic dogma. Back in the 60's Egypt was lead by a Socialist leader called Nasser. Egypt and many other Arab countries were enjoying certain emancipation with prolific and excellent artists. Nasser called for the union of most Arab countries with the support of the Soviet-Union. This has scared both Israel and United-States that have decided to destabilize Nasser and most Arab countries by supporting/backing-up financially and strategically all Arab countries oppositions. And guess what? Who do you think was the main opposition? It was the Islamic fundamentalists like the well-know 'Islamic brothers' of Egypt. Since that time, many Arab countries have experienced with an increase in fundamentalism that they have never experienced before. And what happened next is history. To make a long story short, there is a big part a responsibility in what the US did to support fundamentalism and destabilize Arab countries. Maybe, US were not sure of the outcome but as long as their own interests are not a stake they do not care. Back in the 80's, you can find some similarities with Taliban's and Moudjahidins in Afghanistan. Then, the US was very happy to have courageous fighters fighting against the Soviet in the name of god. At that time, US did not care (as usual) about democracy and women's right when they were supporting Taliban's and other Arabs extremists groups that found in Afghanistan a new holy territory to expand their extremisms (Ben-Laden is one of them). Yvan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 4:55:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.noos.fr (aragon.noos.net [212.198.2.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D91337B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 41916580 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 2001 11:55:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO C) ([212.198.39.178]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.75 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Oct 2001 11:55:27 -0000 Message-ID: <004b01c15bb9$9852b8c0$b227c6d4@C> From: "yvan" To: "Brett Glass" , References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172532.04293960@localhost> Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:55:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Actually, that land has changed hands so many times over > the centuries that any claim to "rightful" ownership of > it is arbitrary. But the Israelis are actually good > stewards of it. In fact, the Arabs living within Israel's > boundaries live better, and are treated better, than > those in Gaza and other areas ceded to the Palestinian > terrorists. Hello, This is the typical argument of a colonizer. If you look at South-Africans, British or French colonizers or any other colonizers they will tell you that they bring knowledge and civilization to their colonized population. Also, the second typical argument is that the local better-off with the colonizers. Yeah right! Taking them as low cost employees while maintaing a total economical embargo on the rest of Palestine. I do not think someone as stubborn as Brett could modify is point of view: the one the superior race colonizer. Put let me put this clear, I think that any people in the world would prefer to live poorer and to have their self-determination; Decolonization was all about that, people may not have the best infrastructure, wages, GDP (And Blacks in Africa or Palmestinian never had the same quality of life as the colonizers) etc... but they have their land, their rights, their language, their choice on how to use their resources best without anyone taking it out from their hands. Yvan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 6: 5:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CEB37B403 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id C0CC814C2E; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:05:37 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: On holy wars and a plea for peace From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Oct 2001 15:05:37 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's please not have long passionate diatribes about [insert your favorite religion] on this list. We don't want this kind of flame war here. Learn to hit 'reply' instead of 'followup' or 'group reply'. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 6:21:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mongrel.pacific.net.au (mongrel.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C3937B422 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp90.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.90]) by mongrel.pacific.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id XAA18582; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:19:17 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: mongrel.pacific.net.au: Host ppp90.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.90] claimed to be dungeon.home Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f9NDMTf21954; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:22:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:24:29 -0600" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:22:29 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21st October 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 09:47 AM 10/21/2001, Stephen McKay wrote: > >>>Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name >>>of their religion? >> >>Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating >>Palestinians it doesn't like. > >Israel is doing no such thing. It is not "assassinating" Palestininans, >but rather appropriately going after terrorists that have killed innocent >people or are preparing to. Really? So, they arrest them, try them in a court of law (with appropriate witnesses, defense lawyers, and a jury of their peers), convict them, and sentence them to ... what? ... being sprayed with bullets in their car, or hit with a tank shell, possibly alongside anybody else who happened to be in the same building? I rather think they skip some "due process", and go straight to the spraying with bullets and lobbing of tank shells. It's the same as the other side does (except they can't afford tanks), and is not any sort of moral high ground. >And it's not being done in the name of religion. Israel is a secular state. Maybe so. But if so, you win the pedant award for this week. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 9:40:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98FE37B403 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26015; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:40:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:39:58 -0600 To: Stephen McKay From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au In-Reply-To: <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:22 AM 10/23/2001, Stephen McKay wrote: >Really? So, they arrest them, try them in a court of law (with appropriate >witnesses, defense lawyers, and a jury of their peers), convict them, and >sentence them to ... what? Ths is in fact what they do in most cases. However, when met with deadly force while attempting to apprehend criminals, the government does have the right to respond with deadly force. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 10:33:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11508.mail.yahoo.com (web11508.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7143637B40C for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20011023173344.11999.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.68.128.83] by web11508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:33:44 PDT Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:33:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Fabio Miranda Subject: Socket help To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, i am student of system engineering and I have been studying socket system for a subject at university. I have found much difficult understanding the functions: htonl(u_long hostlong); htons(u_short hostshort); ntohl(u_long netlong); ntohs(u_short netshort); I dont understand: What are they for?, What structure do they recive and what they return? how an ip address is stored in a struct ? each part is threat as int or the whole is an char? as you can see, i am very confused i appreciate your help, i have found lots of online documentation but I wish to know what's happening inside, how to deal the structures: sockaddr_in, hostent, etc thanks, thanks alot!. The result of this research is a publication in a local magazine, freebsd is alive in south america!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 11:24:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D34137B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DougBarton.net (db-cvad-2-tmp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.243]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123988B5BA; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:25:16 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: yvan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yvan wrote: > > Hi, > > Speaking of religion, if Judeo-Christianism is the 'good' vs evil religion > Islam: I haven't seen anyone claim that. All human civilizations, past and present, have committed atrocities, frequently in the name of some religion or another. Those religions shouldn't be judged by the actions of people who commit horrible crimes ostensibly in their name. -- "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." - George W. Bush, President of the United States September 20, 2001 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 13:43: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A4337B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21DEBD12; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01368; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:43:01 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9NKgQM44033; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On holy wars and a plea for peace References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Oct 2001 13:42:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7epu7ehyvj.u7e@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 40 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav -- you wrote: > Let's please not have long passionate diatribes about [insert your > favorite religion] on this list. We don't want this kind of flame war > here. Learn to hit 'reply' instead of 'followup' or 'group reply'. Haven't you twice in the last few days sent complaints about this to the list? I think it's safe to say that most people don't mind ignoring threads they aren't interested in because they can expect them to peter out soon enough. And "we"? Who's that? So far I've seen two posts that support that statement, but they're both from you, while at least ten people have participated in what I think you've inaccurately called a flame war. From http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html freebsd-chat -- "Non-technical items related to the FreeBSD community" "about non-technical, social information" "whether Jordan looks like a toon ferret or not" "where the best beer is brewed" Unless you can get that changed, I think you're going to have to get out your John Lennon and imagine a mailing list without religion or politics or whatever it is that you do not want FreeBSD users to discuss here. Regarding your subject line: I think language works better when peace is about putting fingers to keys and war is about putting fingers to throats. I know there's a movement to consider any expression of conflicting views an act of violence worthy of government sanction (mostly in civil court so far, but finding its way into statutes), but I see it as slippery slope into a tub of tar. Maybe dope-smokers like Lennon can imagine a world without conflicting opinions, but the rest of us need to learn to live with it in a state of peace (and not by stifling all exchange of opinion or hauling each other into courts). No hard feelings here (yet) but do remember that it is bad e-tiquette to repeat yourself before you can expect many new people in your audience. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 15:25:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95E537B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9NMP6p12253; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moon_dog@spamcop.net) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.moondog.org: elden set sender to moon_dog@spamcop.net using -f Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:25:06 -0700 From: Elden Fenison To: Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011023152506.E10650@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , FreeBSD-chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <20011022122517.D28419@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011022121909.04230b70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022121909.04230b70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:32:17PM -0600 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:32:17PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Including the commandment in the Old Testament to commit genocide? It is no big secret that God utilized the military of Old-Testament Israel to accomplish His own goals and to bring justice onto those who He deemed worthy. Are you insinuating that God was wrong? Granted His actions would not be deemed "politically correct" in this day and age, but that is rather irrelevant. I wonder if you're quoting God's intructions to the Israelites when you don't truly believe in God at all. (this doesn't seem valid to me) The other option is, you believe those intructions came from God but you're saying that He was wrong. (also not valid, at least if you believe in the God of the Bible) -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 17: 5: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DED637B403 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3A9FF6AB08; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:34:52 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:34:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) Message-ID: <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 10:39:58AM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 10:39:58 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:22 AM 10/23/2001, Stephen McKay wrote: > >> Really? So, they arrest them, try them in a court of law (with appropriate >> witnesses, defense lawyers, and a jury of their peers), convict them, and >> sentence them to ... what? > > Ths is in fact what they do in most cases. And rightly so. > However, when met with deadly force while attempting to apprehend > criminals, the government does have the right to respond with deadly > force. Ah. Where does that right come from? In the constitution? Are there laws in place which define when this right applies, and what "deadly force" means? Does "attempting to apprehend criminals" include driving tanks into towns and firing at random? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 17:42:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7895637B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15974 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2001 00:42:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nitedog) (65.6.158.15) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 24 Oct 2001 00:42:58 -0000 Message-ID: <001701c15c24$9f911cb0$0301a8c0@nitedog> Reply-To: "Randall Hamilton" From: "Randall Hamilton" To: "Brett Glass" , "Stephen McKay" Cc: , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:41:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Really? So, they arrest them, try them in a court of law (with appropriate > witnesses, defense lawyers, and a jury of their peers), convict them, and > sentence them to ... what? ... being sprayed with bullets in their car, or > hit with a tank shell, possibly alongside anybody else who happened to be > in the same building? sounds sorta like US policy to me..or are those bombs and cruise missles fake :) --nitedog To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 18:20:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpd.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpd.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C07B37B407 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26188 invoked by uid 50005); 24 Oct 2001 01:13:52 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpd with qmail-scanner-1.00 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4166. . Clean. Processed in 0.176784 secs); 24 Oct 2001 01:13:52 -0000 Received: from du25.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.25]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpd.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Oct 2001 01:13:52 -0000 Message-ID: <3BD61743.59E967E@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:20:03 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > And it's not being done in the name of > religion. Israel is a secular state. Do you mean that Israel is not a Jewish state, or that Judaism is not a religion? I think many Israelis would be suprised at either proposition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 18:40: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6214637B405 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a133.otenet.gr [212.205.215.133]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9O1duO21758; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:39:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9O1J5b35572; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:19:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:19:05 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Elden Fenison Cc: Brett Glass , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011024041905.A35538@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <20011022122517.D28419@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011022121909.04230b70@localhost> <20011023152506.E10650@moondog.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011023152506.E10650@moondog.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-GPG-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-URL: http://labs.gr/~charon/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:25:06PM -0700, Elden Fenison wrote: > * On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:32:17PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > Including the commandment in the Old Testament to commit genocide? > > I wonder if you're quoting God's intructions to the Israelites when you > don't truly believe in God at all. (this doesn't seem valid to me) Quoting something is valid as long as the source of the quote can be indepently verified. The questions that one might have, whether it was really God or anyone else that originally 'commanded' for the texts to be written, is I fear a topic that has been rehashed billions of times on alt.atheism, soc.atheism and similar places. Nothing invalid with Brett's original quote, then. -giorgos I feel like going through the archives and counting references, to find the largest thread ever. This one sure seems like it. Are we going to keep it alive forever (thus, possibly rendering it God-like, in its immortality)? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 18:55:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1741137B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04066; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:55:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174746.0435fa80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:20:21 -0600 To: "yvan" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) In-Reply-To: <004b01c15bb9$9852b8c0$b227c6d4@C> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172532.04293960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:55 AM 10/23/2001, yvan wrote: >> Actually, that land has changed hands so many times over >> the centuries that any claim to "rightful" ownership of >> it is arbitrary. But the Israelis are actually good >> stewards of it. In fact, the Arabs living within Israel's >> boundaries live better, and are treated better, than >> those in Gaza and other areas ceded to the Palestinian >> terrorists. > >Hello, > >This is the typical argument of a colonizer. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "colonization." Israel is most definitely not a colony, since colonies by definition are controlled from without and do not have have democratic governments. (The colonies that became the United States had to revolt to get one, as did India and many others.) Attempting to determine the "rightful" owner of a territory according to past rule is arbitrary and a hallmark of primitive thinking. Jerusalem, for example, has been within the territory of hundreds of regimes over the centuries, from ancient nomadic tribes to ancient Judea (which long pre-dated Islam, by the way) to the Romans. Why is one claim any more or less legitimate than any other? Are you going to attempt to declare an arbitrary date at which the game of "Musical Chairs" ends and the group that was in control at that date should have control? If so, what's to keep others from naming an equally arbitrary date at which someone else was in power? The only way out of this conundrum is democracy: the notion that legitimacy of government depends not upon the history of past control but by whether or not there is government by, of, and for the people. A democratic government is elected by, and represents, the people who live there, regardless of ethnicity. It thus has legitimacy which transcends mankind's sordid history of warring factions, power-hungry despots and ethnic hatred. By this yardstick, it's clear that Israel's government is not only legitimate but the ONLY legitimate candidate in the region. The fact that there are 10 Arab representatives in the Knesset demonstrates that Israel's government is democratic, secular, and tolerant. On the other hand, none of the Palestinian groups that aspire to govern the region (and push Israel's democratic government into the sea in the process) have ANY such claim to legitimacy. All are controlled by brutal terrorists, and none are democratic. Nor is there any indication that they ever will be. Rather, if they took over, they would either rule as despots or impose religious rule according to the barbaric and inhumane regime known as "Sharia." So hateful are these terrorists of the Israeli democracy that they very recently sent assassins to brutally murder an Israeli legislator who committed the unpardonable offense of representing his people in a democratic government. In short, they deserve no respect and certainly not to rule. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 18:55:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E9E37B406 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04062; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:55:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:47:35 -0600 To: Doug Barton , yvan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 PM 10/23/2001, Doug Barton wrote: > I haven't seen anyone claim that. All human civilizations, past and >present, have committed atrocities, frequently in the name of some >religion or another. Those religions shouldn't be judged by the actions >of people who commit horrible crimes ostensibly in their name. I disagree. Religions that explicitly command their followers to commit horrible crimes absolutely should -- in fact, MUST -- be condemned. If they are not, any killer can claim that he or she is exempt from fundamental human ethical and moral codes due to his or her religion. To cite one example: Suppose that I declared myself to be a Thuggee. Would I then be justified in committing ritual murder because it was required by my religion? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 19: 4:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135A337B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04256; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200140.04378980@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:04:09 -0600 To: Elden Fenison From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Cc: FreeBSD-chat In-Reply-To: <20011023152506.E10650@moondog.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022121909.04230b70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213112.0489f2f0@localhost> <20011022122517.D28419@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011022121909.04230b70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 PM 10/23/2001, Elden Fenison wrote: >I wonder if you're quoting God's intructions to the Israelites when you >don't truly believe in God at all. (this doesn't seem valid to me) My personal spiritual beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion, and so I have put them aside for the purpose of this conversation. Any satisfactory solution to the problem being discussed should have the property that it respects any belief system which does not seek to harm, or impose itself upon, others. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 19: 8:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5854B37B405; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04291; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:08:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:08:38 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:04 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> However, when met with deadly force while attempting to apprehend >> criminals, the government does have the right to respond with deadly >> force. > >Ah. Where does that right come from? In the constitution? The constitutions (or equivalent documents) of all democratic governments accord them the right to keep the peace and apprehend criminals. And rightly so. >Are there >laws in place which define when this right applies, and what "deadly >force" means? In every democracy of which I am aware. >Does "attempting to apprehend criminals" include >driving tanks into towns and firing at random? No. And the Israelis are not doing that. The Egyptians did when they attacked Israel in 1967 (which is why Israel, justifiably, took the West Bank and Gaza... and kept them until it foolishly began ceding territory to terrorists in a misguided program of appeasement). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 19:16:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1D737B401 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04393; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:16:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200917.04da0720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:15:58 -0600 To: "T.M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) In-Reply-To: <3BD61743.59E967E@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:20 PM 10/23/2001, T.M. Sommers wrote: >Do you mean that Israel is not a Jewish state, Yes, I do mean that. Israel is a secular state. Israel does, of course, contain many Jews. New York City contains more. But this does not make New York a "Jewish" city. Israel's government has representatives from both right-wing Jewish political parties and Muslim political parties. >or that Judaism is not a religion? Judaism is a religion -- or, really, a group of religions. (Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism have very little in common with, say, Hassidism. They embrace the same religious texts, but treat them very, very differently. Their religious practices are, literally, worlds apart.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 19:32:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBC837B401; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04596; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:32:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023203144.04dbca80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:32:26 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20011024114401.D28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:14 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of >justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. Yes, it does -- in cases where it is warranted. Do you know what a SWAT team is? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 23 20:16:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA4E37B405; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05183; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:16:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023211321.04da92f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:16:45 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20011024120609.F28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023203144.04dbca80@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> <20011024114401.D28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023203144.04dbca80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:36 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >You're dodging the subject. Not at all. >Anyway, you're also wrong. Your ignorance of the facts does not mean that I am incorrect. > In the >democracies of which *I'm* aware, there is a due course of justice. >It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. Any such >invasion is outside the law. If you can make me aware of any >democracy whose laws allow this, then you will be right. There are many. However, the most relevant example happens to be the United States. (Australia probably allows such things as "no-knock searches" and SWAT teams, too, since -- at least up until September 11th -- it rated slightly lower on the civil liberties scale than the US.) >> Do you know what a SWAT team is? > >No. Then look it up on the Web.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 1:20:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB32F37B403 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15wJGu-000AHk-00; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:20:20 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15wJH2-0004OJ-00; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:20:28 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:20:28 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On holy wars and a plea for peace Message-ID: <20011024092028.D14989@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <7epu7ehyvj.u7e@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7epu7ehyvj.u7e@localhost.localdomain>; from swear@blarg.net on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 01:42:24PM -0700 X-Scanner: exiscan *15wJGu-000AHk-00*$AK$nagJRZcsQKk0mLRchPIDq0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 23, "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Haven't you twice in the last few days sent complaints about this to the > list? I think it's safe to say that most people don't mind ignoring > threads they aren't interested in because they can expect them to peter > out soon enough. Normally, I'd agree. However, these threads are not petering out. In fact, more threads are being spawned. Not only has it been a fair chunk of traffic, it's also incredibly boring - I have several 24 hour news TV stations, plus all the regular news slots on normal channels. I have a whole Internet with information on what is going on all over it. I have newspapers going over, and over, and over it all, constantly. I, personally, would prefer freebsd-chat to be somewhere that I can "go" as a refuge. > And "we"? Who's that? So far I've seen two posts that support that > statement, but they're both from you, while at least ten people have > participated in what I think you've inaccurately called a flame war. Because threads about killing off threads are just as annoying. Personally, I felt that the threads on religion and war should have been killed out a long time ago. I stopped contributing to them when I felt it was being dragged out into a flamewar. > Unless you can get that changed, I think you're going to have to get out > your John Lennon and imagine a mailing list without religion or politics > or whatever it is that you do not want FreeBSD users to discuss here. Nobody is saying it's against the list charter. We're just saying "enough already". Don't you guys EVER want to have a break from this? You know, you could go and discuss your opinions of religion with some of the finest theologists on the planet. You could discuss your opinions on the war with people who have actually met Osama Bin Laden. You could have really interesting dialogue with people who are well informed, all over the internet. Why the HELL do people want to discuss it with a load of BSD hackers? It makes no sense, it's boring to lots of other people, and there is no reason why you could not take the discussion off-list. In fact, if you want to reply to this message, please do so off-list. I only post onto list now to show that there really is support for the sentiment shown in the previous post. > Lennon can imagine a world without conflicting opinions, but the rest > of us need to learn to live with it in a state of peace (and not by > stifling all exchange of opinion or hauling each other into courts). Nobody objects to that, just dragging it out on a list that is supposed to be mildly entertaining (no, that's not in the charter, but it should be in the spirit of the list), with a realtively small group of people who could easily now take the discussion off-list helps this list or anybody on it. Perhaps it would be a good idea for people to remember a few things - I once knew a landlord of a pub who had three areas of conversation he would ban drunk people from having discussions on - religion, politics and sport. He did this, because he knew that if you started a discussion on any of them, especially whilst drunk, you were going to end up in a huge row at the least and most probably in a fight. It's a good rule of thumb. When you first meet somebody, initiating a conversation in any of those three areas is a bad way to start your relationship. In addition, you're going to be causing anxiety and to some extent apathy towards your sentiments if you discuss those topics outside of the right context. Just because the list charter says you can discuss those topics, doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea to do so. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 7:25:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041F037B409 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 36068 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2001 14:25:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Oct 2001 14:25:18 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011024092028.D14989@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:27:43 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: On holy wars and a plea for peace Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Gary W. Swearingen" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Oct-01 Paul Robinson wrote: > Perhaps it would be a good idea for people to remember a few things - I once > knew a landlord of a pub who had three areas of conversation he would ban > drunk people from having discussions on - religion, politics and sport. He > did this, because he knew that if you started a discussion on any of them, > especially whilst drunk, you were going to end up in a huge row at the least > and most probably in a fight. It's a good rule of thumb. When you first meet > somebody, initiating a conversation in any of those three areas is a bad way > to start your relationship. In addition, you're going to be causing anxiety > and to some extent apathy towards your sentiments if you discuss those > topics outside of the right context. Just because the list charter says you > can discuss those topics, doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea to > do so. I grew up in the South in the USA, and we had a slightly different version of that statement: "Never discuss religion, politics, or woodstoves cause everyone's got one and everyone's is the best." (There were some serious home made woodstoves where I grew up...) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 7:44:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from omega.lovett.com (omega.lovett.com [209.249.90.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DE937B409 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668153-153.austin.rr.com ([66.68.153.153] helo=guardian.lovett.com ident=root) by omega.lovett.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15wPGa-000NUh-00; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:44:24 -0700 Received: from ade by guardian.lovett.com with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15wPGa-0000sn-00; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:44:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:44:24 -0500 From: Ade Lovett To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Message-ID: <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:47:35PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:47:35PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > I disagree. Religions that explicitly command their followers to > commit horrible crimes absolutely should -- in fact, MUST -- be > condemned. > > [snip] ITYM s/condemned/exterminated (with extreme prejudice)/ HTH. Y'all HAND. -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. ade@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "We are here to preserve democracy, not practice it." -- Gene Hackman, 'Crimson Tide' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 9:31:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7804B37B405 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12525 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011024103022.04238c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:31:00 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: "We closed our societies... to freedom and knowledge" (Commentary on terrorist attacks) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.newaus.com.au/news290arabletter.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 15: 9:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp004pub.verizon.net (smtp004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43637B401; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp004pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id f9OM9Jr04018 Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:09:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21436; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:54 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Ade Lovett Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Message-ID: <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org>; from ade@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:44:24AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Recursion in progress. We must not tolerate the intolerant. We must kill the murderers. We must exterminate the exterminators. ..... [RC] On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 09:44:24AM -0500, Ade Lovett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:47:35PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > I disagree. Religions that explicitly command their followers to > > commit horrible crimes absolutely should -- in fact, MUST -- be > > condemned. > > > > [snip] > > ITYM s/condemned/exterminated (with extreme prejudice)/ > > HTH. Y'all HAND. > > -aDe > > -- > Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. ade@FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > "We are here to preserve democracy, not practice it." > -- Gene Hackman, 'Crimson Tide' > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 16:39: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C43C37B401 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a120.otenet.gr [212.205.215.120]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9ONcw526929; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:38:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9OEr2O75084; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:53:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:53:01 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Editors et. al (Was: code density vs readability) Message-ID: <20011024175301.A68933@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011003091251.A80459@jonc.itouch> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002145631.C33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <15290.44739.763131.336545@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15290.44739.763131.336545@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-GPG-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-URL: http://labs.gr/~charon/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Mike, it's been a while since you asked, but since I am reading through old mail today to find something I want, and I know the answer... On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 01:22:59AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Since the vi clones are being discussed, would someone know if one of > them had an incremental search ability? That would make vi faster than > ed for those one-line changes when I'm on a fast connection. Vim has `noincsearch' set by default. Try setting `incsearch' and play around with /text. It works on vim 5.x that I have, so it's been a while that this has been with us :) -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 21:29:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7A637B407; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22903; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:29:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:29:10 -0600 To: Robert Clark , Ade Lovett From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:08 PM 10/24/2001, Robert Clark wrote: >Recursion in progress. > >We must not tolerate the intolerant. > >We must kill the murderers. > >We must exterminate the exterminators. In short, "Do unto others...." ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 24 21:31:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.marinet.gr (www.marinet.gr [62.1.205.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8C137B406; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athena ([62.1.154.6]) by zeus.marinet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA06905 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:05:36 +0300 Message-ID: <001001c15cbc$49e2ec60$120152a6@marinet.gr> From: "Sotiria Petrou" To: Subject: =?iso-8859-7?B?TWFyaW5ldCAtINDRz9PUwdTF2NTFINTPIMPRwdbFyc8g08HTIME=?= =?iso-8859-7?B?0M8g1M/V0yDJz9XTIA==?= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:42:50 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C15CD4.D549F2E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C15CD4.D549F2E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C15CD4.D549F2E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C15CD4.D549F2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MARINET - =D0=F1=EF=F3=F6=EF=F1=DC Antivirus =20 =D0=D1=CF=D3=D4=C1=D4=C5=D8=D4=C5 =D4=CF = =C3=D1=C1=D6=C5=C9=CF =D3=C1=D3 =C1=D0=CF =D4=CF=D5=D3 =C9=CF=D5=D3=20 =C5=E3=EA=E1=F4=DC=F3=F4=E1=F3=E7 =E1=F0=FC = =F4=E5=F7=ED=E9=EA=EF=FD=F2 =EC=E1=F2=20 =C4=E9=E1=F1=EA=DE=F2 = =D5=F0=EF=F3=F4=DE=F1=E9=EE=E7 & =C1=ED=E1=ED=DD=F9=F3=E7 =D0=D1=CF=D3=D6=CF=D1=C1 10.000 =C4=D1=D7=20 =20 =20 =20 =D0=F1=EF=F3=F4=E1=F4=DD=F8=F4=E5 =F4=E1 = =DD=E3=E3=F1=E1=F6=DC =F3=E1=F2 =E1=F0=FC =F4=EF=F5=F2 =E9=EF=FD=F2: =20 =20 Symantec Norton Antivirus 2002 - 9.800 =E4=F1=F7 Symantec Systemworks 2001 - 17.000 =E4=F1=F7=20 McAffee Virusscan - 9.600 =E4=F1=F7 McAffee Office 2001 - 35.000 =E4=F1=F7 =C1=ED=E1=ED=DD=F9=F3=E7 = =E2=E9=E2=EB=E9=EF=E8=E7=EA=FE=ED =E9=FE=ED - 10.000 =E4=F1=F7 =C5=E3=EA=E1=F4=DC=F3=F4=E1=F3=E7 =E1=F0=FC = =F4=E5=F7=ED=E9=EA=FC =EC=E1=F2 - 10.000 =E4=F1=F7=20 =D0=E1=F1=DD=F7=EF=F5=EC=E5 = =F3=F5=EC=E2=FC=EB=E1=E9=E1 =E4=E9=E1=F1=EA=EF=FD=F2 = =F5=F0=EF=F3=F4=DE=F1=E9=EE=E7=F2. =20 =20 =20 *=CF=E9 =F4=E9=EC=DD=F2 =E4=E5=ED = =F0=E5=F1=E9=EB=E1=EC=E2=DC=ED=EF=F5=ED =D6=D0=C1 18%=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =D5=F0=E5=FD=E8=F5=ED=EF=F2 =D0=F9=EB=DE=F3=E5=F9=ED =CD=E9=EA=FC=EB=E1=EF=F2 =CC=F0=EF=F3=DF=ED=E7=F2 =F4=E7=EB.: 4101130,1 fax: 4101132 e-mail: sales@marinet.gr =20 =20 =D3=F5=EC=F0=EB=E7=F1=FE=F3=F4=E5 =F4=E1 = =F3=F4=EF=E9=F7=E5=DF=E1 =E3=E9=E1 =F0=EB=E7=F1=EF=F6=EF=F1=DF=E5=F2:=20 =C5=F4=E1=E9=F1=E5=DF=E1: =20 =BC=ED=EF=EC=E1 (=F5=F0=E5=F5=E8=FD=ED=EF=F5): =20 =CF=E4=FC=F2, =E1=F1=E9=E8=EC=EF=F2: =20 =D0=FC=EB=E7: =20 =D4.=CA. =20 =D4=E7=EB=DD=F6=F9=ED=EF: =20 FAX: =20 E-mail: =20 =20 =C5=ED=E4=E9=E1=F6=E5=F1=FC=EC=E1=F3=F4=E5 =E3=E9=E1 = =F4=E1 =F0=E1=F1=E1=EA=DC=F4=F9 =F0=E1=EA=DD=F4=E1: =20 Symantec Norton Antivirus 2002 -9.000 = =E4=F1=F7: =20 McAffee Virusscan - 9.000 =E4=F1=F7: =20 =D3=F5=ED=E4=F1=EF=EC=DE Internet PSTN: 3 = =EC=E7=ED=E7 6=EC=E7=ED=E7 12=EC=E7=ED=E7 =20 =D3=F5=ED=E4=F1=EF=EC=DE Internet ISDN = 64K: 3 =EC=E7=ED=E7 6=EC=E7=ED=E7 12=EC=E7=ED=E7 =20 =D3=F5=ED=E4=F1=EF=EC=DE Internet ISDN = 128K: 3 =EC=E7=ED=E7 6=EC=E7=ED=E7 12=EC=E7=ED=E7 =20 =CF=EB=EF=EA=EB=E7=F1=F9=EC=DD=ED=E5=F2 = =CB=FD=F3=E5=E9=F2 =CC=E7=F7=E1=ED=EF=E3=F1=DC=F6=E7=F3=E7=F2 : =20 =D5=F0=E7=F1=E5=F3=DF=E5=F2 Internet = (=E9=F3=F4=EF=F3=E5=EB=DF=E4=E5=F2, e-shop, webhosting) : =20 =C5=EC=F0=EF=F1=E9=EA=DD=F2 = =C5=F6=E1=F1=EC=EF=E3=DD=F2 : =20 =C1=EC=F6=DF=E4=F1=EF=EC=EF = =E4=EF=F1=F5=F6=EF=F1=E9=EA=FC Internet: =20 =C5=E3=EA=E1=F4=DC=F3=F4=E1=F3=E7 & = =F3=F5=ED=F4=DE=F1=E7=F3=E7 =F4=EF=F0=E9=EA=EF=FD =E4=E9=EA=F4=FD=EF=F5 = : =20 =CC=FC=ED=E9=EC=E5=F2 = =EC=E9=F3=E8=F9=EC=DD=ED=E5=F2 =E3=F1=E1=EC=EC=DD=F2 : =20 =CC=E5=DF=F9=F3=E7 = =F4=E7=EB=E5=F0=E9=EA=EF=E9=ED=F9=ED=E9=E1=EA=EF=FD = =EA=FC=F3=F4=EF=F5=F2 =F5=F0=E5=F1=E1=F3=F4=E9=EA=FE=ED = =EA=EB=DE=F3=E5=F9=ED : =20 =20 =20 =CB=E5=F0=F4=EF=EC=DD=F1=E5=E9=E5=F2:=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =C1=ED =E4=E5=ED =E5=F0=E9=E8=F5=EC=E5=DF=F4=E5 =ED=E1 = =EB=DC=E2=E5=F4=E5 =EE=E1=ED=DC =EA=DC=F0=EF=E9=E1 = =F0=F1=EF=F3=F6=EF=F1=DC =EC=E5 e-mail =E1=F0=FC =F4=E7=ED = =E5=F4=E1=E9=F1=DF=E1 =EC=E1=F2=20 =F0=E1=F1=E1=EA=E1=EB=FE =F0=E1=F4=DE=F3=F4=E5 =F4=EF = =F0=E1=F1=E1=EA=DC=F4=F9 =EA=EF=F5=EC=F0=DF. =20 =20 =20 =D5=F0=EF=F5=F1=E3=E5=DF=EF = =C1=ED=DC=F0=F4=F5=EE=E7=F2 - =D0=F1=FC=E3=F1=E1=EC=EC=E1 = =C4=E9=EA=F4=F5=F9=E8=E5=DF=F4=E5=20 10.000 =E5=F0=E9=F7=E5=E9=F1=DE=F3=E5=E9=F2 = =E1=EE=E9=EF=F0=EF=DF=E7=F3=E1=ED =DE=E4=E7 =F4=EF = =F0=F1=FC=E3=F1=E1=EC=EC=E1=20 =E3=E9=E1 =F4=E7=ED =F0=F1=EF=EC=DE=E8=E5=E9=E1 = =E7=EB=E5=F4=F1=EF=ED=E9=EA=EF=FD =E5=EE=EF=F0=EB=E9=F3=EC=EF=FD = =EA=E1=E9 =F5=F0=E7=F1=E5=F3=E9=FE=ED. =20 OTE : =CC=E5=DF=F9=F3=E7 =F4=EF=F5 =F0=DC=E3=E9=EF=F5 = =F4=DD=EB=EF=F5=F2 ISDN =E1=F0=FC 6.000 =E4=F1=F7/=EC=DE=ED=E1 =F3=E5 = 4.500 =E4=F1=F7/=EC=DE=ED=E1 =20 Marinet =C1=EB=E9=F0=DD=E4=EF=F5 18, 18531 = =D0=E5=E9=F1=E1=E9=DC=F2 =D4=E7=EB 01 4101130,1 Fax 014101132 sales@marinet.gr=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C15CD4.D549F2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MARINET - =D0=F1=EF=F3=F6=EF=F1=DC Router Zyxel = Prestige
 

=D0=D1=CF=D3=D4=C1=D4=C5=D8=D4=C5 =D4=CF = =C3=D1=C1=D6=C5=C9=CF =D3=C1=D3 =C1=D0=CF =D4=CF=D5=D3=20 =C9=CF=D5=D3 =
=C5=E3=EA=E1=F4=DC=F3=F4=E1=F3=E7 =E1=F0=FC = =F4=E5=F7=ED=E9=EA=EF=FD=F2=20 =EC=E1=F2
=C4=E9=E1=F1=EA=DE=F2 = =D5=F0=EF=F3=F4=DE=F1=E9=EE=E7 &=20 =C1=ED=E1=ED=DD=F9=F3=E7
=D0=D1=CF=D3=D6=CF=D1=C1 = 10.000 =C4=D1=D7=20

=D0=F1=EF=F3=F4=E1=F4=DD=F8=F4=E5 =F4=E1 = =DD=E3=E3=F1=E1=F6=DC =F3=E1=F2 =E1=F0=FC =F4=EF=F5=F2=20 =E9=EF=FD=F2:

Symantec Norton Antivirus 2002 - 9.800=20 =E4=F1=F7
Symantec Systemworks 2001 - 17.000 = =E4=F1=F7=20
McAffee Virusscan - 9.600 = =E4=F1=F7
McAffee Office 2001=20 - 35.000 =E4=F1=F7
=C1=ED=E1=ED=DD=F9=F3=E7 = =E2=E9=E2=EB=E9=EF=E8=E7=EA=FE=ED =E9=FE=ED - 10.000=20 =E4=F1=F7
=C5=E3=EA=E1=F4=DC=F3=F4=E1=F3=E7 = =E1=F0=FC =F4=E5=F7=ED=E9=EA=FC =EC=E1=F2 - 10.000 =E4=F1=F7

=D0=E1=F1=DD=F7=EF=F5=EC=E5 =F3=F5=EC=E2=FC=EB=E1=E9=E1 = =E4=E9=E1=F1=EA=EF=FD=F2=20 = =F5=F0=EF=F3=F4=DE=F1=E9=EE=E7=F2.

*=CF=E9 =F4=E9=EC=DD=F2 =E4=E5=ED = =F0=E5=F1=E9=EB=E1=EC=E2=DC=ED=EF=F5=ED =D6=D0=C1 18%=20 =

 

=D5=F0=E5=FD=E8=F5=ED=EF=F2 = =D0=F9=EB=DE=F3=E5=F9=ED
=CD=E9=EA=FC=EB=E1=EF=F2=20 =CC=F0=EF=F3=DF=ED=E7=F2
=F4=E7=EB.: = 4101130,1
fax:=20 4101132
e-mail: sales@marinet.gr=20
=D3=F5=EC=F0=EB=E7=F1=FE=F3=F4=E5 =F4=E1=20 =F3=F4=EF=E9=F7=E5=DF=E1 =E3=E9=E1=20 = =F0=EB=E7=F1=EF=F6=EF=F1=DF=E5=F2:
=C5=F4=E1=E9=F1=E5=DF=E1: =  
=BC=ED=EF=EC=E1=20 (=F5=F0=E5=F5=E8=FD=ED=EF=F5):  
=CF=E4=FC=F2, =E1=F1=E9=E8=EC=EF=F2:=20  
=D0=FC=EB=E7:  
=D4.=CA.  
=D4=E7=EB=DD=F6=F9=ED=EF:  
FAX:  
E-mail: =  
     
=C5=ED=E4=E9=E1=F6=E5=F1=FC=EC=E1=F3=F4=E5 = =E3=E9=E1 =F4=E1 =F0=E1=F1=E1=EA=DC=F4=F9 =F0=E1=EA=DD=F4=E1:=20
Symantec Norton Antivirus 2002 = -9.000=20 =E4=F1=F7:
McAffee=20 Virusscan - 9.000 =E4=F1=F7:
=D3=F5=ED=E4=F1=EF=EC=DE Internet = PSTN: 3 =EC=E7=ED=E7=20 =20 6=EC=E7=ED=E7 =20 12=EC=E7=ED=E7 =20
=D3=F5=ED=E4=F1=EF=EC=DE Internet = ISDN 64K: 3 =EC=E7=ED=E7=20 6=EC=E7=ED=E7 12=EC=E7=ED=E7
=D3=F5=ED=E4=F1=EF=EC=DE Internet = ISDN 128K: 3 =EC=E7=ED=E7=20 6=EC=E7=ED=E7 12=EC=E7=ED=E7
=CF=EB=EF=EA=EB=E7=F1=F9=EC=DD=ED=E5=F2 =CB=FD=F3=E5=E9=F2 = =CC=E7=F7=E1=ED=EF=E3=F1=DC=F6=E7=F3=E7=F2=20 :
=D5=F0=E7=F1=E5=F3=DF=E5=F2 = Internet (=E9=F3=F4=EF=F3=E5=EB=DF=E4=E5=F2, e-shop,=20 webhosting) :
=C5=EC=F0=EF=F1=E9=EA=DD=F2 = =C5=F6=E1=F1=EC=EF=E3=DD=F2 : =20
=C1=EC=F6=DF=E4=F1=EF=EC=EF = =E4=EF=F1=F5=F6=EF=F1=E9=EA=FC Internet:
=C5=E3=EA=E1=F4=DC=F3=F4=E1=F3=E7 = & =F3=F5=ED=F4=DE=F1=E7=F3=E7 =F4=EF=F0=E9=EA=EF=FD = =E4=E9=EA=F4=FD=EF=F5=20 :
=CC=FC=ED=E9=EC=E5=F2=20 =EC=E9=F3=E8=F9=EC=DD=ED=E5=F2 = =E3=F1=E1=EC=EC=DD=F2 :
=CC=E5=DF=F9=F3=E7=20 = =F4=E7=EB=E5=F0=E9=EA=EF=E9=ED=F9=ED=E9=E1=EA=EF=FD = =EA=FC=F3=F4=EF=F5=F2 =F5=F0=E5=F1=E1=F3=F4=E9=EA=FE=ED = =EA=EB=DE=F3=E5=F9=ED :=20 =20 =
=CB=E5=F0=F4=EF=EC=DD=F1=E5=E9=E5=F2:
=20
 
=20 =20 =

=C1=ED =E4=E5=ED = =E5=F0=E9=E8=F5=EC=E5=DF=F4=E5 =ED=E1 =EB=DC=E2=E5=F4=E5 =EE=E1=ED=DC = =EA=DC=F0=EF=E9=E1=20 =F0=F1=EF=F3=F6=EF=F1=DC =EC=E5 e-mail =E1=F0=FC =F4=E7=ED = =E5=F4=E1=E9=F1=DF=E1 =EC=E1=F2
=F0=E1=F1=E1=EA=E1=EB=FE = =F0=E1=F4=DE=F3=F4=E5 =F4=EF=20 =F0=E1=F1=E1=EA=DC=F4=F9 = =EA=EF=F5=EC=F0=DF.

=20

=D5=F0=EF=F5=F1=E3=E5=DF=EF = =C1=ED=DC=F0=F4=F5=EE=E7=F2 - =D0=F1=FC=E3=F1=E1=EC=EC=E1=20 =C4=E9=EA=F4=F5=F9=E8=E5=DF=F4=E5
10.000 = =E5=F0=E9=F7=E5=E9=F1=DE=F3=E5=E9=F2 =E1=EE=E9=EF=F0=EF=DF=E7=F3=E1=ED = =DE=E4=E7 =F4=EF=20 =F0=F1=FC=E3=F1=E1=EC=EC=E1
=E3=E9=E1 =F4=E7=ED = =F0=F1=EF=EC=DE=E8=E5=E9=E1 =E7=EB=E5=F4=F1=EF=ED=E9=EA=EF=FD = =E5=EE=EF=F0=EB=E9=F3=EC=EF=FD =EA=E1=E9=20 =F5=F0=E7=F1=E5=F3=E9=FE=ED.


OTE : =CC=E5=DF=F9=F3=E7 = =F4=EF=F5 =F0=DC=E3=E9=EF=F5 =F4=DD=EB=EF=F5=F2 ISDN =E1=F0=FC=20 6.000 =E4=F1=F7/=EC=DE=ED=E1 =F3=E5 4.500 = =E4=F1=F7/=EC=DE=ED=E1


Marinet
=C1=EB=E9=F0=DD=E4=EF=F5 18,=20 18531 =D0=E5=E9=F1=E1=E9=DC=F2
=D4=E7=EB 01 = 4101130,1
Fax=20 014101132
sales@marinet.gr=20 =

=
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Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9P8rfl96617 ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:53:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA99095 ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:53:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:53:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Robert Clark , Ade Lovett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Message-ID: <20011025105340.A98964@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Robert Clark , Ade Lovett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:29:10PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Oct 24, 2001 at 22:29:10: > At 04:08 PM 10/24/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > >Recursion in progress. > > > >We must not tolerate the intolerant. > > > >We must kill the murderers. > > > >We must exterminate the exterminators. > > In short, "Do unto others...." ;-) ... as you would have them do unto you? (I think that's the correct quote) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 2:27:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 373F437B40B for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15632 invoked by uid 100); 25 Oct 2001 09:27:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15319.56048.917975.873569@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:27:12 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Robert Clark , Ade Lovett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. In-Reply-To: <20011025105340.A98964@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost> <20011025105340.A98964@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > Brett Glass said on Oct 24, 2001 at 22:29:10: > > At 04:08 PM 10/24/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > In short, "Do unto others...." ;-) > > ... as you would have them do unto you? (I think that's the correct quote) So if you enjoy a nice, juicy steak be sure and treat your Hindu neighbor to one as well. :-) http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 8:56:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277F037B403; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.103.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.103] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15wmre-0003lM-00; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:56:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3BD83652.48C9F4E7@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:57:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Robert Clark , Ade Lovett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost> <20011025105340.A98964@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > In short, "Do unto others...." ;-) > > ... as you would have them do unto you? (I think that's the correct quote) The correct statement from metalaw is: "Do unto others as they would have you do to them" Consider an encounter with ammonia-breathing aliens, where we "do unto them as we would have done unto us", and provide them an Oxygen atmosphere... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 15:18:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85CD37B405 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a182.otenet.gr [212.205.215.182]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9PMIYK22335; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:18:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9PCDs001916; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:13:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:13:54 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Message-ID: <20011025151354.D850@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost> <20011025105340.A98964@lpt.ens.fr> <15319.56048.917975.873569@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15319.56048.917975.873569@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-GPG-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-URL: http://labs.gr/~charon/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:27:12AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan types: > > Brett Glass said on Oct 24, 2001 at 22:29:10: > > > At 04:08 PM 10/24/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > In short, "Do unto others...." ;-) > > > > ... as you would have them do unto you? (I think that's the correct quote) > > So if you enjoy a nice, juicy steak be sure and treat your Hindu > neighbor to one as well. :-) and make sure it's a beef stake, and not pork or anything else :-) -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 15:44: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8414A37B405 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c595663-a ([24.254.67.120]) by femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20011025224354.UJZN570.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c595663-a> for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:43:54 -0700 From: rootman To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Open War Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:36:30 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01102516425600.00374@c595663-a> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is Russ Mitchell just biased and misinformed? http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.10/linux.html I read the entire article and didn't see one mention of BSD, OS X or anything about the GPL/licensing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 15:56: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.supercable.es (smtp.supercable.es [212.79.128.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C12137B42F for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 300amdk6 (cliente-217217250063.cm256.senpb.supercable.es [217.217.250.63]) by smtp.supercable.es (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with SMTP id f9PMudN19006 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:56:39 +0200 (MEST) From: "Manuel Jesus" To: Subject: subscribe Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:47:27 +0200 Message-ID: <003401c15da7$057415e0$3ffad9d9@supercable.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C15DB7.C8FCE5E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C15DB7.C8FCE5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Saludos. Manuel Jes�s. Email: majesa@supercable.es ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C15DB7.C8FCE5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
Saludos.
Manuel Jes=FAs.
Email: majesa@supercable.es
 
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C15DB7.C8FCE5E0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 18:33:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3412B37B403 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6972 invoked by uid 1165); 26 Oct 2001 01:33:18 -0000 Date: 25 Oct 2001 18:33:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:33:18 -0700 From: Seth Kingsley To: Alan DuBoff Cc: Mitch Collinsworth , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: want advice Message-ID: <20011025183318.A5179@fluff.meowfishies.com> References: <200110252141.RAA29334@philotas.hosting.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200110252141.RAA29334@philotas.hosting.pacbell.net>; from aland@softorchestra.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:41:35PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386 X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/5C413B08 X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: F772 5D24 02B4 D233 90F5 080F 0F50 3298 5C41 3B08 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Moved to -chat] On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:41:35PM -0700, Alan DuBoff wrote: > On Thursday 25 October 2001 01:39 pm, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >=20 > > If you're reading this list in order to look for a > > job, I suspect you've just alerted a lot of hiring managers to keep > > their distance from you. Myself included. >=20 > I have quite a bit of tolerance for people posting to a list, but in the = case=20 > where the poster is so clueless, it's an annoyance. I wonder why the list= =20 > allows a bulkmailer to post to the list? What did you hope to accomplish? Do you respond to all of your spam with angry letters and clever insults? Bulkmailers are probably allowed specifically for this list because a lot of (relevant) job offerings are cross-posted to this list. This isn't the only applicable forum for FreeBSD-related jobs. > I have obviously offended you and possibly others on the list, and for th= at I=20 > do appologize. I doubt that most of the people reading these lists would take this kind of thing as personally as you seem to. I didn't find your post offensive, I found it to be a complete waste of time/space/energy, both in your futile attempt at "knocking some sense" into this person, and in my having read your useless banter. > And yes, let it be a message to all hiring managers who might read this. = I do=20 > my job, at minimum, and I get my work done in a prompt, and effecient man= nor.=20 > And quite frankly, my work speaks for itself as do all of the people that= I=20 > have worked for in the past, who will gladly tell you about the type work= =20 > I've completed for them. Most of these people were glad to tolerate my=20 > occasional behavior in light of the fact that I have consistently out=20 > performed most of my colleagues and delivered my projects to them. One of the things that I most admire about Open-Source developers, especially those involved with the FreeBSD project, is humility. You seem to be lacking in this quality, in addition to tactfulness. So basically what you're trying to prove is that you're uncommunicative and don't work well in groups? > I see you're from Cornell, most likely using your alumni account. I wasn'= t so=20 > fortunate to spend time at a great university like that. Instead I've bee= n=20 > sweating, writing code that runs on systems 24x7, from devices as small a= s a=20 > cell phone to systems as large as a mainframe, but centered around the mi= cro=20 > computer. Whatever needs to be done, I find a way to do it to make up for= my=20 > lack of "formal" education. This can also be considered a short coming th= at=20 > my skills are able to make up for. Now you're attacking the respondent based purely on his email address? And when did this become a personal advertisement? You seem to be on a personal crusade to prove that your experience and conviction outweigh having no credientials; this is a noble cause, but you're going about it in completely the wrong way. --=20 || Seth Kingsley || Meow Meow Fluff Fluff || sethk@meowfishies.com || || rndcontrol -s 0 || --n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE72L1eD1AymFxBOwgRAjbXAJ9XgHWUDbTM3H5+5nvAvXZUgXvU5wCfVHUd 1ghA+HnuUeIbDZObBgofTPU= =RJIi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --n8g4imXOkfNTN/H1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 25 21:37: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.sasknow.com (ren.sasknow.com [207.195.92.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2437B37B407 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by ren.sasknow.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA39868 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:37:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:37:02 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: User/virtual administration Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's been awhile since I've posted here... Hopefully this will be interesting to a few of you, though! (If not, feel free to hop over this message and go on back to the great terrorism debate, which, by the way, has been really interesting reading.. ;-) I'm proposing a new administration project, and am currently compiling an ideal feature set and initial research. This project, essentially, will aggregate and centralize administration of various possibly distributed system components, but in a user-centric way. This is in some ways like some rubber-stamp style "virtual hosting" platforms, automating repetitive administrative tasks and hiding all the gory details of pesky and typo-prone things like DNS zones, apache s, passwords, etc, for each user or account. (I.e., NOT like webmin, etc, which manage in a module-centric way). Of course, this project will be developed on FreeBSD :-) I know that similar projects exist.. But it seems to me that every one of them that I have been able to find suffers in certain areas that I want to address and correct. At this point, I am considering the following issues: * Similar products--my list of similar products is probably not complete. What is out there for this? Is anything similar in development right now? * Feature requests--If this project is developed, what key features would be most important? Or, conversely, what annoys you most about the system you are using? * Demand--who would use such a thing? Is this something that is sorely needed by many? Or are the current products accessible enough (in terms of TCO and time required to set up)? Would the project be sufficiently marketable to support itself? (tough questions! :-) * Support--would anyone *consider* contributing time/money/ resources to the development of something like this, given a more formalized proposal? What would you require before contributing? Feel free to reply to the list, or to me privately. If you suggest a great feature that I didn't think of, you will of course receive proper acknowledgement if it is used.. But if you feel the need to place restrictions on the use of your killer ideas, etc, you are probably best not to send them at this point. :-) If I receive an encouraging response to this, I WILL sink some significant time into it and put your responses to their best possible use. Thanks! - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 1:31:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF65337B403 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15x2Ok-0002Fp-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:31:26 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15x2Ot-0006C3-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:31:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:31:35 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Ryan Thompson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: User/virtual administration Message-ID: <20011026093135.B22182@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from ryan@sasknow.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 10:37:02PM -0600 X-Scanner: exiscan *15x2Ok-0002Fp-00*$AK$6cuRgf3Tf/16Kj5HddlT8.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would advise that you look at: http://ark.sourceforge.net It's early days, but the underlying concept is related to what you are proposing, and if the code turns out as good as the talk (reading 'Motivations', 'Key Ideas' and 'Fundamentals' should get you fired up), then this will turn into something very interesting indeed. I think the key to projects like this are to be able to produce a set of open 'best practise' policies, with the tools there to support them. The advantage to this approach is that I can still modify the policy to be able to keep my alias table in a MySQL table, have my RADIUS authenticate everybody no matter what user/pass you whack in, and other site-specific madness. I think taking sysadmin to the next level of abstraction is long overdue. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 2:34:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C2237B403 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15x3Mx-0002zc-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:33:39 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15x3N7-0006F6-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:33:49 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:33:49 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Seth Kingsley Cc: Alan DuBoff , Mitch Collinsworth , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: want advice Message-ID: <20011026103349.E22182@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <200110252141.RAA29334@philotas.hosting.pacbell.net> <20011025183318.A5179@fluff.meowfishies.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20011025183318.A5179@fluff.meowfishies.com>; from sethk@meowfishies.com on Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 06:33:18PM -0700 X-Scanner: exiscan *15x3Mx-0002zc-00*$AK$DMek3QnCmEcISkIemNsGM1* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 26, Seth Kingsley wrote: > [Moved to -chat] You know, I just love it when people move their flamewars onto -chat. Of course, that's what it's here for. Not for like, you know, off-topic discussion. No, it's here to humiliate others in public. Terrific! :-) =20 > One of the things that I most admire about Open-Source developers, > especially those involved with the FreeBSD project, is humility. You > seem to be lacking in this quality, in addition to tactfulness. So > basically what you're trying to prove is that you're uncommunicative and > don't work well in groups? I have to say, you're not showing yourself to be particularly tactful either. As for FreeBSD-geeks being full of humility, well... I'd say the majority I've met were full of pies and dope (i.e. fat and stoned). Therefore, perhaps they're just dozy (after eating all the pies), and a bit stoned. Is that *really* humility? Aren't steretypes GREAT!? When you can't win an argument through any other means, just show that the person you're arguing with doesn't fit into your stereotypical view of the community they consider themselves to be a part of, thereby 'excluding' them. Nice work. =20 > Now you're attacking the respondent based purely on his email address? About as justifiable as choosing not to employ somebody or deem somebody unemployable based on the content of a few e-mails. > And when did this become a personal advertisement? You seem to be on a > personal crusade to prove that your experience and conviction outweigh > having no credientials; this is a noble cause, but you're going about it > in completely the wrong way. That may very well be the case, but I don't see how your response will help him become more communicative, or indeed employable. Perhaps some constructive commentary would have been a little more helpful. At this point, I would say that you as somebody who is prepared to lambast, bring others needlessly into the argument (moving it to -chat), and being generally obnoxious and as a result would be completely and wholly unemployable by any organisation I was part of. Not nice when people make judgements like that about you based on a few hundred words is it? I suggest that this discussion goes on off-list as it is no doubt about to turn into one hell of a flamefest. You're all gagging for an argument, but with all of the debate on here in recent weeks, I'm all argued out. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 9:20:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.sasknow.com (ren.sasknow.com [207.195.92.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514D937B403 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by ren.sasknow.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA33220; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:19:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:19:51 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: Paul Robinson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User/virtual administration In-Reply-To: <20011026093135.B22182@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote to Ryan Thompson: > I would advise that you look at: > > http://ark.sourceforge.net Hi Paul, I like the Ark concept (I really do), but I think it is quite different than what I am looking for. ARK, like many other packages out there, seems to be stuck on the concept of service-centric administration (configuring daemons). That's fine, if you were born thinking like a server. Maybe I misunderstood their purpose from the few pages of preliminary documentation that is available. My question is WHY do it that way? What are the common tasks that sysadmins (for now, let's say in a web hosting scenario) want to perform? Depending on the size of the organization, 90-99% of time is spent on account management. Adding/removing/modifying users, right? (Come on.. Tell me I'm wrong.. ;-) The trouble is, there is no atomic "add user" command on typical systems. There are plenty of fine scripts to add users to the passwd database (or whatever auth db of choice), as well as plenty of methods to add Apache virtual hosts, DNS zones, etc... but they are all disjoint... When I want to add a user, I want the sense of completing ONE coherent task.. not several. The result is a more efficient, less error prone method that doesn't require intimate knowledge of the configuration formats for 100 different daemons. Anyways, Paul... Not meaning to come down on your suggestion (I'm not)... Ark looks really good... And something like that, as well, is sorely needed for administering large installations. Put quite simply, it's just not the same direction that I'm headed. ;-) - Ryan > It's early days, but the underlying concept is related to what you are > proposing, and if the code turns out as good as the talk (reading > 'Motivations', 'Key Ideas' and 'Fundamentals' should get you fired > up), then this will turn into something very interesting indeed. > > I think the key to projects like this are to be able to produce a set > of open 'best practise' policies, with the tools there to support > them. The advantage to this approach is that I can still modify the > policy to be able to keep my alias table in a MySQL table, have my > RADIUS authenticate everybody no matter what user/pass you whack in, > and other site-specific madness. > > I think taking sysadmin to the next level of abstraction is long overdue. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 9:45:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CED137B403 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15xA6n-0007I8-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:45:25 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15xA73-0006td-00; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:45:41 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:45:41 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Ryan Thompson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User/virtual administration Message-ID: <20011026174541.E24701@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011026093135.B22182@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from ryan@sasknow.com on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:19:51AM -0600 X-Scanner: exiscan *15xA6n-0007I8-00*$AK$RKQrMVs0vRXqw7cSM8B170* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 26, Ryan Thompson wrote: > I like the Ark concept (I really do), but I think it is quite different > than what I am looking for. ARK, like many other packages out there, seems > to be stuck on the concept of service-centric administration (configuring > daemons). That's fine, if you were born thinking like a server. Maybe I > misunderstood their purpose from the few pages of preliminary > documentation that is available. I think you may have misunderstood the final concept. It's early days yet, but the long-term goal is for sysadmins to sit and determine and learn about sensible policies and for all of the rest of the underlying stuff to just be there - e.g. chances are if me and you both want Apache with PHP, we're likely to do the majority of it the same way. The actual dirs where things live might change, as might permissions - that's a policy issue though. So, let's suppose I build a script to install Apache and PHP in a framework that understands your policies - and it just works in your environment as well as it does in mine, excpet it works with your variables. That's the goal of Ark. > My question is WHY do it that way? What are the common tasks that > sysadmins (for now, let's say in a web hosting scenario) want to perform? > Depending on the size of the organization, 90-99% of time is spent on > account management. Adding/removing/modifying users, right? (Come on.. > Tell me I'm wrong.. ;-) OK, you're wrong. If you're spending time doing account management, consider writing the scripts to sit behind the web front-end for your customer services team to handle. Sysadmins should be looking after systems, not accounts. It's even in the job title. :-) Going off-track here, but unless users need a shell, I never put a system in place that would give users an entry in /etc/passwd - if you can put FTP and Mail into MySQL (proftpd, exim), why bother having them lying around in flat files. By putting them into a MySQL table, writing a script to handle account management because laughably trivial. > The trouble is, there is no atomic "add user" command on typical systems. > There are plenty of fine scripts to add users to the passwd database (or > whatever auth db of choice), as well as plenty of methods to add Apache > virtual hosts, DNS zones, etc... but they are all disjoint... When I want > to add a user, I want the sense of completing ONE coherent task.. not > several. The result is a more efficient, less error prone method that > doesn't require intimate knowledge of the configuration formats for 100 > different daemons. That, is ultimately, the aim of Ark. It's nowhere near it now, but that is what I perceive the goal to be. I know exactly what you mean, and what you're talking about is policy development - "This customer should have an FTP account with his webspace, and his domain should point here...", "This guy from sales needs to see how many customers we have live right now...", "Accounts need to be able to block this guys website...", etc. > Anyways, Paul... Not meaning to come down on your suggestion (I'm not)... > Ark looks really good... And something like that, as well, is sorely > needed for administering large installations. Put quite simply, it's just > not the same direction that I'm headed. ;-) Fair enough. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. If you get a webpage up detailing the methodology, post the URL up, and I'm sure lots of people here will be happy to take a look. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 11:32:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [216.33.66.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA4137B408 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id EB21081D0A; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:32:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:32:23 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Matthew Jacob Cc: Jos Backus , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 64 bit times revisited.. Message-ID: <20011026133223.K15052@elvis.mu.org> References: <20011026110151.A1584@lizzy.bugworks.com> <20011026110702.A68844-100000@wonky.feral.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011026110702.A68844-100000@wonky.feral.com>; from mjacob@feral.com on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:07:05AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Matthew Jacob [011026 13:07] wrote: > > *gag* *nod* Whenever IT/management suggests a MS based solution I feel like Calvin at the dinner table presented with mom's cassarole. :) > On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Jos Backus wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:10:15AM -0700, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > > *Unless* Micros$ft makes a new release of XP 64 bit. And we all know how > > > enthusiasitc they were about the Alpha 64 bit port for NT...... > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/techinfo/planning/techoverview/default.asp > > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/howtobuy.asp > > > > -- > > Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA > > _/ _/ _/ > > _/ _/_/_/ > > _/ _/ _/ _/ > > josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' http://www.morons.org/rants/gpl-harmful.php3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 19:31:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA17037B405 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alliance.research.att.com (alliance.research.att.com [135.207.26.26]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029FC4CE64; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by alliance.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27461; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fenner Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.5) id TAA16602; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200110270231.TAA16602@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: 64 bit times revisited.. Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <200110261707.f9QH7F437553@apollo.backplane.com> <3BDA19B1.F26651DC@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:31:29 -0700 Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.2j/makemail 2.9b Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I have this vision of an SF novel, where human civilization >is destroyed 29 billion years from now because of 64 bit >seconds, and the fact that all computer programming is done >by machines instead of by humans... Why would human civilization be destroyed 263471208677 years before a 64-bit signed field would overflow? Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 20:49:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8D437B408; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AF5816ACEE; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:18:11 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:18:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Robert Clark , Ade Lovett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first. Message-ID: <20011025141811.D74157@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> <20011019154414.A43110@moondog.org> <3BD1CCC8.6923E04F@mindspring.com> <002301c15bb5$281a6070$b227c6d4@C> <3BD5B60C.849FE82D@DougBarton.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023174335.04395b50@localhost> <20011024094424.B3080@FreeBSD.org> <20011024150854.A21407@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011024222846.05230f00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:29:10PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 24 October 2001 at 22:29:10 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:08 PM 10/24/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > >> Recursion in progress. >> >> We must not tolerate the intolerant. >> >> We must kill the murderers. >> >> We must exterminate the exterminators. > > In short, "Do unto others...." ;-) That's a little too short. It rather inverts the meaning. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 20:49:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B3A37B407 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 954BB6AB15; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:06:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:06:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) Message-ID: <20011024120609.F28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> <20011024114401.D28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023203144.04dbca80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023203144.04dbca80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 08:32:26PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 20:32:26 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:14 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of >> justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. > > Yes, it does -- in cases where it is warranted. You're dodging the subject. Anyway, you're also wrong. In the democracies of which *I'm* aware, there is a due course of justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. Any such invasion is outside the law. If you can make me aware of any democracy whose laws allow this, then you will be right. > Do you know what a SWAT team is? No. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 20:49:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D44637B401 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B003A6AB08; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:44:01 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:44:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) Message-ID: <20011024114401.D28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 08:08:38PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 20:08:38 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:04 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> However, when met with deadly force while attempting to apprehend >>> criminals, the government does have the right to respond with deadly >>> force. >> >> Ah. Where does that right come from? In the constitution? > > The constitutions (or equivalent documents) of all democratic > governments accord them the right to keep the peace and apprehend > criminals. And rightly so. Correct, but this has nothing to do with apprehension. >> Are there laws in place which define when this right applies, and >> what "deadly force" means? > > In every democracy of which I am aware. In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. >> Does "attempting to apprehend criminals" include driving tanks into >> towns and firing at random? > > No. And the Israelis are not doing that. It looks very much like it to me. What am I missing? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 26 21: 0:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 111E737B405 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 68078 invoked by uid 100); 27 Oct 2001 04:00:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15322.12637.939947.887493@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:00:29 -0500 To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) In-Reply-To: <20011024120609.F28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011021172133.04293620@localhost> <200110231322.f9NDMTf21954@dungeon.home> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023103803.04978a90@localhost> <20011024093452.B28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023200438.04daac60@localhost> <20011024114401.D28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011023203144.04dbca80@localhost> <20011024120609.F28396@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey types: > On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 20:32:26 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:14 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of > >> justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. > > > > Yes, it does -- in cases where it is warranted. > > You're dodging the subject. Anyway, you're also wrong. In the > democracies of which *I'm* aware, there is a due course of justice. > It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. Any such > invasion is outside the law. If you can make me aware of any > democracy whose laws allow this, then you will be right. The United States of America's laws allow this. "Knockless warrants" are commonly issued in cases where the evidence is easily destroyed or armed resistance is expected. It's expected the officers will go in armed for such things. At which point, the rules regarding use of firepower by the police come into play. There are conditions under which an officer can shoot first. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 27 9:26:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842AA37B406 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f9RGQMU58638 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:26:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:26:22 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Using gcc Message-ID: <20011027122622.A58587@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stupid question here, but if I were to write something, and compile it using gcc, would it then be subject to the GPL? Does this just apply to using code that is under the GPL? -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 27 9:56:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.isg.siue.edu (mail.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB84837B405 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WEBSHIELD2.isg.siue.edu (webshield2.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.150]) by mail.isg.siue.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA15515 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:56:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: FROM mail.isg.siue.edu BY WEBSHIELD2.isg.siue.edu ; Sat Oct 27 11:54:20 2001 -0500 Received: from client156-52.ll.siue.edu (client156-52.ll.siue.edu [146.163.156.52]) by mail.isg.siue.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15500; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:56:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from vcardon@localhost) by client156-52.ll.siue.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f9RGr8p26052; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:53:08 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:53:08 -0500 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: Robert Hough Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using gcc Message-ID: <20011027115308.A25997@client156-52.ll.siue.edu> References: <20011027122622.A58587@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UugvWAfsgieZRqgk" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <20011027122622.A58587@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 12:26:22PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 12:26:22PM -0400, Robert Hough wrote: > Stupid question here, but if I were to write something, and compile it > using gcc, would it then be subject to the GPL? Does this just apply to > using code that is under the GPL? No. The GPL places no restrictions on use. If it did, then FreeBSD would not include it as the default compiler. Victor --=20 Victor R. Cardona Powered by SuSE Linux 7.1 (i386) Professional GPG key ID E81B3A1C Key fingerprint =3D 0147 A234 99C3 F4C5 BC64 F501 654F DB49 E81B 3A1C --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE72uZzZU/bSegbOhwRApG1AKCAkmTlZt7QjjBlcfGVPKJz9dvq9wCdFWR/ 2+1tgYQ+9FrJVQfMxdZP7/Y= =roRA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 27 10:38: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B74137B401 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00735; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011027112406.043a5040@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:27:39 -0600 To: Robert Hough , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Using gcc In-Reply-To: <20011027122622.A58587@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:26 AM 10/27/2001, Robert Hough wrote: >Stupid question here, but if I were to write something, and compile it >using gcc, would it then be subject to the GPL? Does this just apply to >using code that is under the GPL? Richard Stallman would doubtless like to impose such a restriction, and in fact may try to do so in the future. (This is a true threat to truly free software projects such as the BSDs, all of which have very unwisely made themselves hopelessly and dangerously dependent upon GPLed tools.) However, no such restriction CURRENTLY exists. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 27 11:18:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11505.mail.yahoo.com (web11505.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D5DE37B406 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20011027181836.26603.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.68.128.94] by web11505.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:18:36 PDT Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Fabio Miranda Subject: offtopic: c questions To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, I am freebsd user, i want to know: 1. I would like to understand network byte ordering concepts. I know some machines are "little endian" and "big endian", and tcpip provides a standard called network ordering throught htonl, htons,etc fuctions. I want to know How does look like bigendians and network byte ordering?, how can i know if i am in a little or bigendian host? 2. I am student of computer science, but at my university noone use freebsd or code bsd socket, so, i am doing this by my own, but it's hard, i read commer book about tcpip, but, i dont understand the concepts, i have printed almost all freebsd man related to sockets. I would like to know what way did you guy follow to understand tpcip understand unix?, i dont have money to buy a book at amazon, but, is that the only way? can't i understand unix tcpip programming with free resources? thanks ppl! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 27 12: 9: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9555737B405 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.143.45.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.143.45] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15xYpG-0006L3-00; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:08:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3BDB0680.E8714908@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:09:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fabio Miranda Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions References: <20011027181836.26603.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fabio Miranda wrote: > > hi, I am freebsd user, i want to know: > 1. I would like to understand network byte ordering > concepts. I know some machines are "little endian" and > "big endian", and tcpip provides a standard called > network ordering throught htonl, htons,etc fuctions. > I want to know How does look like bigendians and > network byte ordering?, how can i know if i am in a > little or bigendian host? It has to do with whether the most significant bit of a multibyte value is in the first byte or the last byte, when a multibyte value is converted to a stream of bytes on a network transport. It is a corruption of whether you put "the big end in to the pipe first, or the little end in", combined with a joke on the English similarity in pronunciation between the word pair "end in" and the word "Indian" -- hence the use of the "a" in the contration: "endian" instead of "endin". Network byte order is Motorolla byte order, which is the opposite of that of the x86 architecture. > 2. I am student of computer science, but at my > university noone use freebsd or code bsd socket, so, > i am doing this by my own, but it's hard, i read > commer book about tcpip, but, i dont understand the > concepts, i have printed almost all freebsd man > related to sockets. I would like to know what way did > you guy follow to understand tpcip understand unix?, i > dont have money to buy a book at amazon, but, is that > the only way? can't i understand unix tcpip > programming with free resources? Read the Richard Stevens books instead of the Comer book. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message