From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 13 1:49:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3FA37B400 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 01:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-197.wobline.de [212.68.69.208]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0D9n8v14226; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:49:08 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0D9oMX73456; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:50:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0D9nTn28104; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:49:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:49:29 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FIC on updating BIOS ;-) Message-ID: <20020113104929.A1712@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020113001000.A92296@tisys.org> <15424.53757.481922.381948@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15424.53757.481922.381948@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1011313021.0822f6@mired.org on Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 06:17:01PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 10:39AM up 21 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.19, 0.06, 0.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 06:17:01PM -0600, Mike Meyer stood up and spoke: > > I'd say it's good advice for most users: installing a new BIOS (or > whatever) may well break something that is currently working. Why risk > that unless there's a good chance it'll fix something that *isn't* > currently working? More importantly - at least as far as the vendor is > concerned - it probably causes a noticable drop in their support > calls. That's true, actually. I know a lot of people who are *always* after new BIOSes, probably because they think that they are cool if they always have the latest stuff (which makes no sense for the BIOS, however). Personally, I only update my BIOS in response to problems I'm having. Back when the 686B bug was a hot issue, I of course updated my BIOS as soon as a fixed version became available. Normally, I have a look at the BIOS websites of my board's vendors every now and then to see what's going on. If I see a problem addressed that I have personally seen, I'll update. If not, I don't, after all, there's not much use in doing so. However, what I found so "interesting" about FIC's warning was that they explicitly wrote "better download some software on some sharewaqre site or do something less dangerous". I somehow found the way that had written that funny. Epox, for example, has a not so funny warning, simply saying that a BIOS should only be updated if there is really a need to do so, and that one should know what one's doing before attempting an update. In contrast to this, the FIC statement seems to be targetted at all those "need-the-latest-stuff" kids out there, who probably don't know what they are doing, and therefore are really better of at a shareware site... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 13 4:37:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4861237B404 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10043; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 05:35:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020113053321.02aa2d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 05:35:11 -0700 To: Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers In-Reply-To: <200201102009.g0AK9Hv09940@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:09 PM 1/10/2002, Mark Murray wrote: >Do not presume to speak for all BSD users. I am not. Please do not do so yourself. If GNU or GPLed code of any kind gets NEAR the booting process or kernel, then it will hurt all BSD users. Do not advocate it or you are, in effect, trying to impose the GPL upon all BSD users. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 13 20:19:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CF037B405 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1BDED3A23B; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:19:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:19:53 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Can anyone recommend a copyright/trademark lawyer ? Message-ID: <20020113201952.R98001@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am owner of Alameda Networks, Inc., which owns the domain Alameda.net, Alamedanet.com and Alamedanet.org. We have been using the name "Alameda Net" and "ANI" over the years, even lately we haven't done much at all. The local power and telecom company now went and registered Alamedanet.net and is using "Alameda Net" for their cable modem offering. This is a trademark or copyright problem for me and so I need a lawyer for this. Looking for a local laywer in the SF Bay Area. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 13 22:33:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D416D37B400 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0E6Y8Z44659 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:34:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:34:08 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: ryan@catalyst.sasknow.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: GPL and AI Message-ID: <20020114001636.P3656-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't understand the GPL. Can anybody help me out, here? Suppose that, in the making of an artificially intelligent sentient being, one incorporated or extended GPL-protected software components. Suppose, as well, that this being was sufficiently advanced to be classified as a life form, for whatever definition of "life form" seems convenient to your argument. Would the new life form be restricted by the GPL? Would its own rights have any bearing? If the new life form had intimate relations with another AI licensed under, say, a BSD-style license, without protection, would the other AI necessarily become infected with GPL? (What if they merely "look" at each other and get "ideas"?) Would their kids get it, too? [ Maybe this seems fantastical right now, but then again, so was the idea of 30-year-old software with two digit dates still running 'till Y2K. *THAT* was expensive to fix and re-program. ] Any thoughts? - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 13 23: 7: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D0A37B41D for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (emily.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.21]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0E76ON69505; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:06:24 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C428370.5370A8A2@duth.gr> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:06:24 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Thompson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL and AI References: <20020114001636.P3656-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ryan Thompson wrote: > > I don't understand the GPL. Can anybody help me out, here? Probably, but certainly not me or RMS. > Suppose that, in the making of an artificially intelligent sentient > being, one incorporated or extended GPL-protected software components. > Suppose, as well, that this being was sufficiently advanced to be > classified as a life form, for whatever definition of "life form" > seems convenient to your argument. Well, it would have to reproduce, somehow, so you're right that the GPL might be a bit of a problem. Apparently it would have to agree to the GPL in order to copy bits of himself in order to reproduce. Judging by the fact that RMS was involved in MIT's AI lab, if my memory serves me right, perhaps he foresaw a development like this and decided that the best way to fight possible oppresion from a superior AI 'tribe' gone bad would be an army of lawyers. That could help in understanding his motives behind the GPL, at least in part. > Would the new life form be restricted by the GPL? Would its own rights > have any bearing? It probably would be restricted by the GPL, as long as it gave a damn about the silly rules of those pathetic carbon-based creatures that created them in the first place. As for its own rights, judging by how much bearing our rights have in light of recent patents for homo sapiens sapiens source^Wgenes, they wouldn't matter at all. > If the new life form had intimate relations with another AI licensed > under, say, a BSD-style license, without protection, would the other > AI necessarily become infected with GPL? (What if they merely "look" > at each other and get "ideas"?) Sounds like the basis for a futuristic rendition of Romeo and Juliet to me. > Would their kids get it, too? Well, it is viral, isn't it? > [ Maybe this seems fantastical right now, but then again, so was the > idea of 30-year-old software with two digit dates still running > 'till Y2K. *THAT* was expensive to fix and re-program. ] > > Any thoughts? I must admit that I never thought of GPL's viral nature in that context! --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 2:25:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D8F37B405 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0023.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.23] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Q4In-0000ku-00; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C42B20B.7FECBF6B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:25:15 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ulf@Alameda.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend a copyright/trademark lawyer ? References: <20020113201952.R98001@seven.alameda.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > I am owner of Alameda Networks, Inc., which owns the domain > Alameda.net, Alamedanet.com and Alamedanet.org. We have been > using the name "Alameda Net" and "ANI" over the years, even > lately we haven't done much at all. The local power and > telecom company now went and registered Alamedanet.net > and is using "Alameda Net" for their cable modem offering. > This is a trademark or copyright problem for me and so I need > a lawyer for this. > > Looking for a local laywer in the SF Bay Area. I recommend you hurry. I would recommend Venture Law Group; I generally trust their people. The reason for the rush is because most lawyers recuse themselves on the basis of conflist of interest. Thus a common litigation tactic is to get all the talent in a given region for a given type of case on retainer early, as soon as you hear about the case, so that the opponent has to go with third or forth string talent, or out of area talent that doesn't know the local judges, etc.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 2:45:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614A937B41C for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0023.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.23] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Q4ci-0000kX-00; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:45:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C42B6DE.121A99DB@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:45:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: Ryan Thompson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL and AI References: <20020114001636.P3656-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> <3C428370.5370A8A2@duth.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > > If the new life form had intimate relations with another AI licensed > > under, say, a BSD-style license, without protection, would the other > > AI necessarily become infected with GPL? (What if they merely "look" > > at each other and get "ideas"?) > > Sounds like the basis for a futuristic rendition of Romeo and Juliet > to me. I think that it would be fine, as long as the BSD code agreed to be circumcised... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 8: 2:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F01437B405 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23195; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:02:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020114090101.01ef77c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:02:04 -0700 To: Ryan Thompson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL and AI In-Reply-To: <20020114001636.P3656-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:34 PM 1/13/2002, Ryan Thompson wrote: >Suppose that, in the making of an artificially intelligent sentient >being, one incorporated or extended GPL-protected software components. >Suppose, as well, that this being was sufficiently advanced to be >classified as a life form, for whatever definition of "life form" >seems convenient to your argument. > >Would the new life form be restricted by the GPL? Would its own rights >have any bearing? > >If the new life form had intimate relations with another AI licensed >under, say, a BSD-style license, without protection, would the other >AI necessarily become infected with GPL? RMS, as High Priest, would doubtless prohibit intermarriage so as to keep the race pure. ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 10:18:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A295137B41D for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0EIIAw08913 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:18:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:19:35 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Need mail hosting info Message-ID: <20020114131800.V15098-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any suggestions on any companies that would do affordable "mail hosting". I have two URLs with little/no traffic which I would like to host myself, but don't want to deal with the mail hosting component. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 11:56: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D3F37B405 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E4FBD12; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21736; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:56:03 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0EJwnV04657; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:58:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: ulf@Alameda.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can anyone recommend a copyright/trademark lawyer ? References: <20020113201952.R98001@seven.alameda.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Jan 2002 11:58:49 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020113201952.R98001@seven.alameda.net> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ulf Zimmermann writes: > This is a trademark or copyright problem for me and so I need > a lawyer for this. I assume you mean they registered it with a domain registrar, not the trademark office. While you're looking for a lawyer, you should go to http://www.uspto.gov/ and google.com and educate yourself about trademarks. It's pretty easy reading at USPTO.gov and there's LOTS more elsewhere. You can get a non-official determination of whether your trademarks have been registered by someone else there (and probably an official one for $). You can also start registering your marks which costs a few (3-5?) hundered dollars, but if you can get a lawyer soon, maybe you should wait; your guess is as good as mine. There's also a lot to read about the effect of trademark law on domain names and domain name fights, etc, out on the web. Some trademark law is http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/1125.html but there's no substitute for a lawyer if you need to play their game. But you probably don't want to learn the difference between trademark and copyright, etc, at lawyer rates. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 14:54: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg135.cms.usa.net (urdvg135.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D5C137B400 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20509 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2002 23:01:40 -0000 Received: from cpdvg203.cms.usa.net (165.212.11.13) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 2002 23:01:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 12107 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Jan 2002 22:53:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20020114225358.12106.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.15.106 [165.212.15.106] by cpdvg203.cms.usa.net (USANET web-mailer 34FM.0700.28.01B); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:53:58 +0000 Date: 14 Jan 2002 15:53:58 MST From: joshua To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: [Need mail hosting info] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.28.01B) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > Any suggestions on any companies that would do affordable "mail hosting= ". > I have two URLs with little/no traffic which I would like to host mysel= f, > but don't want to deal with the mail hosting component. > = check out www.usa.net > = > = > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 17:53:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8889837B419 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0F1rij14045; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:53:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:55:13 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: joshua Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: [Need mail hosting info] In-Reply-To: <20020114225358.12106.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <20020114205259.M15918-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Jan 2002, joshua wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Any suggestions on any companies that would do affordable "mail hosting". > > I have two URLs with little/no traffic which I would like to host myself, > > but don't want to deal with the mail hosting component. > > > > check out www.usa.net Thanks for the link, but I would much rather support someone who runs on a Free OS. I would even prefer to use a service that runs Linux before I pay money to someone runing MS. :-) From what I see at netcraft.com and even the news banners at usa.net it seems they are a MS shop. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 21: 6:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C80137B405 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA07250 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 00:09:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: a CDROM based firewall Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 00:06:41 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how well it works. i was thinking that i could make an ISO image that when burned to a CDROM, which when booted it would copy itself to memory, and then run from there. you could setup a ram drive to be the /tmp directory, and optionally you could have a hard drive to hold the log files. that way if it ever got cracked, all you'd have to do is reboot it to be back to a known good state. since the CDROM is read-only there is nothing the cracker could hurt except the logs, which could be setup to be emailed to you via cron. i've talked to some people i know about this idea, and someone pointed out that you'd have to burn a CDR every time you wanted to permenatly chage the firewall rules, but what would be wrong with linking the filewall conf(rules) file to a file on the floppy drive? you could edit it on a different computer, and then set the floppy disk to be phsically read-only. mount the disk and restart the firewall deamon causing it to re-read the new file. anyone see any serious problems with this? anyone know if there are any projects like this already out there? thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 14 23:29:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atreides.freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [212.33.142.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7C137B41E for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morten@localhost) by atreides.freenix.no (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0F7Tnv24662; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:29:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from morten) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:29:49 +0100 From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bill Gates is dead Message-ID: <20020115082949.B24304@freenix.no> References: <20020110202703.A15549@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020110202703.A15549@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 08:27:03PM -0800 X-PGP-Key: http://freenix.no/~morten/pgp.txt X-PGP-Key-FingerPrint: 20 40 7A 47 1E A0 BF CF 61 BB CD 9D B3 AD CF E2 D4 90 C3 8D X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE X-Warning: So cunning you could brush your teeth with it. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 08:27:03PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > http://www.billgatesisdead.com/ Bill Gates died in 1997. I even saw his tombstone (at HIP'97 in the Netherlands) :) (now if I only could find the picture of it....) -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ -- UNIX is a lever for the intellect. -- J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 0:10:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jochem.dyndns.org (cc40670-a.groni1.gr.nl.home.com [217.120.131.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566E037B41A for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 00:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jochem@localhost) by jochem.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0F8CED00301; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:12:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jochem) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:12:14 +0100 From: Jochem Kossen To: "Morten A. Middelthon" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Bill Gates is dead Message-ID: <20020115081213.GA289@jochem.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Morten A. Middelthon" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20020110202703.A15549@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020115082949.B24304@freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020115082949.B24304@freenix.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 08:29:49AM +0100, Morten A. Middelthon wrote: > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 08:27:03PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > http://www.billgatesisdead.com/ > > Bill Gates died in 1997. I even saw his tombstone (at HIP'97 in the > Netherlands) :) > > (now if I only could find the picture of it....) http://www.hip97.nl ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 0:12:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atreides.freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [212.33.142.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F5E37B416 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 00:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morten@localhost) by atreides.freenix.no (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0F8CCZ25055 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:12:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from morten) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:12:12 +0100 From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Bill Gates is dead Message-ID: <20020115091212.D24304@freenix.no> References: <20020110202703.A15549@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020115082949.B24304@freenix.no> <20020115081213.GA289@jochem.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020115081213.GA289@jochem.dyndns.org>; from j.kossen@home.nl on Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:12:14AM +0100 X-PGP-Key: http://freenix.no/~morten/pgp.txt X-PGP-Key-FingerPrint: 20 40 7A 47 1E A0 BF CF 61 BB CD 9D B3 AD CF E2 D4 90 C3 8D X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE X-Warning: So cunning you could brush your teeth with it. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:12:14AM +0100, Jochem Kossen wrote: > On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 08:29:49AM +0100, Morten A. Middelthon wrote: > > (now if I only could find the picture of it....) > > http://www.hip97.nl ;) The obvious is always so easy to forget :) thnx -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ -- If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S Truman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 1:30:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BE637B8F3 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) id g0F9ORM99523; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:24:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:24:27 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: joshua Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: [Need mail hosting info] Message-ID: <20020115012427.B99495@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20020114225358.12106.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020114225358.12106.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net>; from spl1t_h0r1z0n@usa.net on Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:53:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:53:58PM -0700, joshua wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Any suggestions on any companies that would do affordable "mail hosting= ". > > I have two URLs with little/no traffic which I would like to host mysel= f, > > but don't want to deal with the mail hosting component. > >=20 >=20 > check out www.usa.net Never used them, but pair.net is a FreeBSD shop. Kris --RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8Q/VKWry0BWjoQKURAjLXAKCCkwnjEiSYz0HF26jwrIeGniwR3wCbBUpM nZuM7q94L8vZGgHr+nsrAsc= =0ZMM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 1:31:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD0537B825 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) id g0F9N2n99515; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:23:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:23:02 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a CDROM based firewall Message-ID: <20020115012302.A99495@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu>; from nmace85@yahoo.com on Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a= =20 > bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based=20 > product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how w= ell=20 > it works. Sounds like an interesting project to pursue. Kris --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8Q/T1Wry0BWjoQKURAoZKAJ0co60Sktb8r1ViMr0J/cB8iZiocACgo8Da JyOyK7/vXeHMfhuyKsE3pQo= =h2b5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 2:59:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [212.66.1.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C77437B41A for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 02:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0FAxLT66323; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 11:59:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 11:59:21 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200201151059.g0FAxLT66323@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bill Gates is dead In-Reply-To: <20020115082949.B24304@freenix.no> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.5.4-20000523 ("1959") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.4-RELEASE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Morten A. Middelthon wrote: > Bill Gates died in 1997. I even saw his tombstone (at HIP'97 in the > Netherlands) :) > > (now if I only could find the picture of it....) I have a bunch of URLs ... ;-) http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/pix2/hip09.html http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/pix1/hip10.jpg http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/pix1/hip15.jpg http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/pix1/hip62.jpg http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/pix1/hip77.jpg http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/friday.html http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/hip/saturday.html Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co KG, Oettingenstr. 2, 80538 München Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream" (E. A. Poe) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 4:35:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1611C37B425 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 04:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 98C4B757B; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 04:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961EC1D93; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 04:38:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 04:38:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a CDROM based firewall In-Reply-To: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Nathan Mace wrote: :what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a :bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based :product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how well :it works. GTA's GNATbox is available for free to noncommercial users (I think it's limited to 4 machines behind the firewall, but www.gta.com has all this). It's FreeBSD based, boots from a single floppy, and takes 5 minutes to set up. It's a really cool piece of software. Back when I worked in the ISP world, the company I was working for was a GTA reseller (we became one because we used and liked their products). We had a GNATbox CD they sent us when it was first released, and damn was it cool. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 5:27:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A9D37B402 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 05:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0FD1DH00550; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:01:13 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:01:13 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a CDROM based firewall Message-ID: <20020115130113.C89034@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8X7/QrJGcKSMr1RN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu>; from nmace85@yahoo.com on Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --8X7/QrJGcKSMr1RN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a= =20 > bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based=20 > product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how w= ell=20 > it works. Take a look at=20 http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=3D2158+0+current/freebsd-adv= ocacy which is information about a "FreeBSD Live CD" project which sounds like it could support exactly the sort of functionality you suggest. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --8X7/QrJGcKSMr1RN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEUEARECAAYFAjxEKBkACgkQk6gHZCw343WFBQCcC4kgDiNx8QNYWzj72aXGlH9r 9eMAmLo+Tq9sCBsO+HfwW0hR3XJjxeM= =Ej6V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8X7/QrJGcKSMr1RN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 8:43:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8992B37B422 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g0FGhH109209; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:43:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a CDROM based firewall In-Reply-To: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Nathan Mace wrote: > what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a > bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based > product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how well > it works. > > i was thinking that i could make an ISO image that when burned to a CDROM, > which when booted it would copy itself to memory, and then run from there. > you could setup a ram drive to be the /tmp directory, and optionally you > could have a hard drive to hold the log files. Or use syslog to log to a remote host. Disable VM alltogether and you need no hard drive at all. > i've talked to some people i know about this idea, and someone pointed out > that you'd have to burn a CDR every time you wanted to permenatly chage the > firewall rules, but what would be wrong with linking the filewall conf(rules) > file to a file on the floppy drive? you could edit it on a different CDROMs are cheap. If I were doing this for my own network, I wouldn't care about their cost. I eventually planned to do this, when I could next afford another computer. > computer, and then set the floppy disk to be phsically read-only. mount the > disk and restart the firewall deamon causing it to re-read the new file. > > anyone see any serious problems with this? anyone know if there are any > projects like this already out there? thanks I don't see any problems. Its just FreeBSD/ipfw used in a slightly unconventional way. You could do this in the time it takes todo a minimal install to a target directory, customize a kernel, and hack rc.firewall to suit your needs, and burn the ROM. (Someone might point out some kooky bootable CDROM / BIOS issues that I am unaware of.) LAter, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 12:10:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C0937B417 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC18FBCB6; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18131; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:10:52 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0FKDWV05371; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a CDROM based firewall References: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 15 Jan 2002 12:13:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nathan Mace writes: > what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a > bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based > product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how well > it works. You could see how others have done it by searching for LRP or Linux Router Project of which there are several variant projects and versions which work off one floppy (some allow non-standard formats for more room). I just heard a lecture on it. (The HTML lecture slides should be on gslug.org by next weekend, but there's lots of info elsewhere.) Names -- seawall.sourceforgge.net; La Brea Tarpit; Oxigen; Dachstein CD; Freesco; Coyote Linux; FrazierWall; The demo I saw ran a program which asked for some config info and built the floppy. Then after booting the floppy it had another config program which allowed changes to the config which could be saved back to the floppy. Has optional telnet and optional sshd. The demoer didn't know about logging, but I suppose it can keep it in RAM disk or syslog it to another system (in the demoed system with no hard disk). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 14:44:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg135.cms.usa.net (urdvg135.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 63D4637B419 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27725 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2002 22:52:32 -0000 Received: from cpdvg202.cms.usa.net (165.212.10.6) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 15 Jan 2002 22:52:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 13307 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Jan 2002 22:44:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20020115224442.13306.qmail@cpdvg202.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.15.106 [165.212.15.106] by cpdvg202.cms.usa.net (USANET web-mailer 34FM.0700.28.01B); Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:44:42 +0000 Date: 15 Jan 2002 15:44:42 MST From: joshua To: Francisco Reyes , joshua Subject: Re: [Re: [Need mail hosting info]] Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.28.01B) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > On 14 Jan 2002, joshua wrote: > = > > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Any suggestions on any companies that would do affordable "mail hosting". > > > I have two URLs with little/no traffic which I would like to host myself, > > > but don't want to deal with the mail hosting component. > > > > > > > check out www.usa.net > = > Thanks for the link, but I would much rather support someone who runs o= n a > Free OS. I would even prefer to use a service that runs Linux before I = pay > money to someone runing MS. :-) > From what I see at netcraft.com and even the news banners at usa.net it= > seems they are a MS shop. we (yes i work here) run an exchange based service as well as a solaris based one. so, neither is 'free' but you didn't really specify beforehand ;) ------------------------------------------------------------ Joshua Smith, CCNA, CCNP Data Center Technician USA.NET "Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence." - Stephen Hawking - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 16:55: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13305.mail.yahoo.com (web13305.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3479637B405 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:55:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020116005504.17344.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.125.144.3] by web13305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:55:04 PST Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:55:04 -0800 (PST) From: Etienne de Bruin Reply-To: eT@deBruins.com Subject: CDROM based Firewall To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This was a project that I started for my company 2 Quarter 2001 and I have successfully implemented a bootable CD on FreeBSD 4-STABLE which does: mfs natd ipfw racoon (for IPSEC) IPSEC Was a very interesting project and I will be happy to contribute information. Regards eT ===== Etienne de Bruin - eT@deBruins.com Life has many choices, eternity only two. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 19:12:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3573237B405 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA17946; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:15:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201160315.WAA17946@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: eT@deBruins.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CDROM based Firewall Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:12:19 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020116005504.17344.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020116005504.17344.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i'm am very interested in starting this project. does anyone know if there is a size limit on sourceforge? is so what is it? and if so, does anyone know where else it could be hosted? i'm off to check as i type this, but if there is a size limit, is there someplace like sourceforge without the size limts? Etienne, any help or advice you could offer would greatly appreciated. when it was all said and done, how big was the image? i would think in the 100-150 meg range once the source code, ports tree, and everything that isn't needed. is that valid estimate? it's just a guess nathan On Tuesday 15 January 2002 07:55 pm, you wrote: > This was a project that I started for my company 2 Quarter 2001 and I > have successfully implemented a bootable CD on FreeBSD 4-STABLE which > does: > > mfs > natd > ipfw > racoon (for IPSEC) > IPSEC > > Was a very interesting project and I will be happy to contribute > information. > > Regards > > eT > > ===== > Etienne de Bruin - eT@deBruins.com > Life has many choices, eternity only two. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 15 20:55:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1884B37B404 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA19401 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 23:58:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201160458.XAA19401@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: Re: CDROM based Firewall Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 23:55:16 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i'm am very interested in starting this project. does anyone know if there is a size limit on sourceforge? is so what is it? and if so, does anyone know where else it could be hosted? i'm off to check as i type this, but if there is a size limit, is there someplace like sourceforge without the size limts? Etienne, any help or advice you could offer would greatly appreciated. when it was all said and done, how big was the image? i would think in the 100-150 meg range once the source code, ports tree, and everything that isn't needed. is that valid estimate? it's just a guess nathan On Tuesday 15 January 2002 07:55 pm, you wrote: > This was a project that I started for my company 2 Quarter 2001 and I > have successfully implemented a bootable CD on FreeBSD 4-STABLE which > does: > > mfs > natd > ipfw > racoon (for IPSEC) > IPSEC > > Was a very interesting project and I will be happy to contribute > information. > > Regards > > eT > > ===== > Etienne de Bruin - eT@deBruins.com > Life has many choices, eternity only two. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 2:13:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391F337B419 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 02:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-112vp95.biz.mindspring.com ([66.47.229.37] helo=magenta.planetshwoop.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Qn4Z-0002K8-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 05:13:35 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.4] (unknown [192.168.0.4]) by magenta.planetshwoop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB281AB for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 02:10:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 02:10:56 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Sobolak X-X-Sender: brian@magenta.planetshwoop.com Reply-To: Brian Sobolak To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ETA of .NET for FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20020116020952.A6853-100000@magenta.planetshwoop.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just curious - has anyone heard how the version of .NET's Common Language Runtime is progressing for FreeBSD? brian -- Got work? http://www.planetshwoop.com/resume/ This is how I think: http://www.planetshwoop.com/blog/ Brian Sobolak sobolak@myrealbox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 3: 0:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eros.primeirospassos.org (200-207-86-32.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.207.86.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD4737B416 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from eros.fugspbr.org (eros.fugspbr.org [200.207.86.32]) by eros.primeirospassos.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20FB70C7 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:00:26 -0200 (BRST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:00:26 -0200 (BRST) From: Edson Brandi X-X-Sender: ebrandi.listas@eros.fugspbr.org To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a CDROM based Firewall Message-ID: <20020116082512.L2340-100000@eros.fugspbr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi The current version of the LiveCD comes being used successfully in some interesting functions, such as firewall, router, frontend webserver in a web farming, desktop, etc Currently it mount in mfs /dev /etc /home /root /var /usr/local/etc and optionally can mount all they using virtual disk nodes (plus /usr/local and /usr/X11R6), but after startup it continues using the COMPACT DISC for / and others FS. The design was initiated to supply the necessities of some members of our user group, therefore at that moment we do not have knowledge of none another project with the same objectives. I make several changes in script tool set in last days, I merged two original scripts into one, using dialog menus, this alteration allows a bigger control on the process of generation of the ISO, but we continue to improve the capacity of detecting the partitions in disks IDE, whitout user intervention. As it revealed useful the Brazilian community, us we believe that it can be useful to all the FreeBSD community and any aid to improve it will be well coming. Best regards Edson Brandi FUGSPBR Founder Ps. Sorry for my bad english ;-) Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: >> what do you guys think of a "free" style licenced BSD based firewall on a >> bootable CDROM? i know that suse linux provides this as a linux based >> product but it is commerical, and i'm not sure how popular it is or how well >> it works. >Take a look at > >http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=2158+0+current/freebsd-advocacy > >which is information about a "FreeBSD Live CD" project which sounds like >it could support exactly the sort of functionality you suggest. [ ]'s Edson , , Edson Brandi /( )` Supervisor de Operacoes - UOL \ \___ / | Fone: 0XX11 96555470 /- _ `-/ ' 0XX11 32244103 (/\/ \ \ /\ ICQ at Work: 32512639 / / | ` \ ICQ at Home: 100503189 O O ) / | --------------------------------------- `-^--'`< ' (_.) _ ) / Transforme seu PC numa Workstation Unix. `.___/` / Visite http://freebsd.ag.com.br `-----' / <----. __ / __ \ <----|====O)))==) \) /==== <----' `--' `.__,' \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 5: 0:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (colo2-222.acedsl.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604E337B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 05:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0GCxwi24216; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:59:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:01:38 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: joshua Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: [Re: [Need mail hosting info]] In-Reply-To: <20020115224442.13306.qmail@cpdvg202.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <20020116080024.C19719-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Jan 2002, joshua wrote: > we (yes i work here) run an exchange based service as well as a solaris > based one. so, neither is 'free' but you didn't really specify > beforehand ;) I didn't even looked at cost. I know I didn't specify, which I should have, but given that it was a FreeBSD list where I posted I figure that may have been a hint that I wanted to support a FreeBSD/BSD/Linux type of company/service. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 6:50:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (colo2-222.acedsl.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0749137B416 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0GEoCi30403 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:50:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:51:54 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall Message-ID: <20020116094211.Y19885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I personally have a hard time thinking about going back to using/buying/supporting FreeBSD mall. I am aware of all Walnut Creek has done for FreeBSD, but I have a bad taste in my mounth about how things went with the sale of Walnut Creek's assets previously. Perhaps the economics forced(?) Walnut Creek to sell. I don't know whether the sell to BSDI was because of money or seen as an "estratigic" alliance. On the other hand I see Daemonnews as a company that is trying to stay "true" to it's roots. I foresee doing all my BSD purchases from them. I also disliked some comments I read from "Bob Bruce" saying that Daemonews "jumped the gun" when they created their mall. As I see it there was a moment where the status of the "FreeBSD Assets" were in the air, Wind River didn't seem to care, and Daemonews filled in a need in the market. What could be wrong with that? Thoughts? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 7:15:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250E237B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from emailrob.com (175-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.175]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E4812000F for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:15:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:13:23 -0600 From: 'emailrob' spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <20020116094211.Y19885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org personally, i haven't figured out just -what- i'm going to do. as i have watched this for the past several months, an idea developed. why can't the non-profit arm of freebsd create a for-profit arm for the purpose of selling cdroms, books, etc. ? this way, i can subscribe from the for-profit arm and put the non-profit arm on my charity list. no muss, no fuss. rob spellberg harvard, illinois To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 7:18:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mk-smarthost-2.mail.uk.worldonline.com (mk-smarthost-2.mail.uk.worldonline.com [212.74.112.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7A637B419 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [62.64.207.187] (helo=cream.org) by mk-smarthost-2.mail.uk.worldonline.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #3) id 16QrpF-0006G8-00; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:18:06 +0000 Message-ID: <3C459A25.8010802@cream.org> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:20:05 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Need mail hosting info References: <20020114131800.V15098-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: >Any suggestions on any companies that would do affordable "mail hosting". >I have two URLs with little/no traffic which I would like to host myself, >but don't want to deal with the mail hosting component. > I've not got any experience with this particular service but Metronet, the company behind http://port995.com has always been very good when I've used their services. I'm not too sure whether they are an open source shop, but it's another option for you. Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 7:49:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604A137B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0GFnmi30769; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:49:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:51:30 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: "'emailrob' spellberg" Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall In-Reply-To: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <20020116105031.X19885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, 'emailrob' spellberg wrote: > why can't the non-profit arm of freebsd > create a for-profit arm > for the purpose of selling cdroms, books, etc. ? What do you mean by non-profit arm? Are you talking about the foundation? They have nothing to do with the mall or vice-versa. The foundation doesn't even own the trademark for FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 7:55:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0C337B400 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24526; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:54:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:54:28 -0700 To: Francisco Reyes , "'emailrob' spellberg" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall Cc: FreeBSD Chat List In-Reply-To: <20020116105031.X19885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:51 AM 1/16/2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: >What do you mean by non-profit arm? Are you talking about the foundation? >They have nothing to do with the mall or vice-versa. The foundation >doesn't even own the trademark for FreeBSD. This is something that should be corrected immediately. In November of 2000, at BSDCon in Monterey, it was announced that the trademark would be transferred immediately. Why was that promise broken? If one of several competing vendors owns the trademark, it unfairly tilts the playing field. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 8:17:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C14737B400 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from emailrob.com (175-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.175]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2180120016 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:17:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C45A713.860AA45@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:15:15 -0600 From: 'emailrob' spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:51 AM 1/16/2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > >What do you mean by non-profit arm? Are you talking about the foundation? > >They have nothing to do with the mall or vice-versa. The foundation > >doesn't even own the trademark for FreeBSD. > > This is something that should be corrected immediately. In November of > 2000, at BSDCon in Monterey, it was announced that the trademark > would be transferred immediately. Why was that promise broken? If one > of several competing vendors owns the trademark, it unfairly tilts the > playing field. > > --Brett Glass the idea is to eliminate refugee status of the distribution. when quality is important, control must be maintained. bring all of the intellectual property [ os, trademark, etc. ] under one roof. under this roof, there may exist one or more entities. different types of "customer" then have a reliable supplier. rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 9:34:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1256D37B402 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:34:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25846; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:33:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:33:48 -0700 To: "'emailrob' spellberg" , FreeBSD Chat List From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall In-Reply-To: <3C45A713.860AA45@emailrob.com> References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:15 AM 1/16/2002, 'emailrob' spellberg wrote: >the idea is to eliminate refugee status of the distribution. The distribution does not have "refugee" status. At least two companies, possibly more, plan to sell copies. It would be nice, in fact, if there were more -- as there are for NetBSD. >when quality is important, control must be maintained. Actually, just the opposite is true. That's the entire philosophy behind open source: that quality results from contributions and consensus rather than iron-fisted control by one entity. >bring all of the intellectual property [ os, trademark, etc. ] > under one roof. You are starting to sound like Richard Stallman, whose "Free" (not!) Software Foundation insists upon owning all of the code of GNU projects, lock, stock, and barrel. (It's a dramatic demonstration of hypocrisy; this is the same man who claims that software "should not have owners." Hmmm.) The intellectual property that comprises FreeBSD -- in particular, the code -- is owned by hundreds of different parties. It will never be "under one roof." The trademark, however, should be owned by a neutral party, not by one which might have a motivation to exclude others. >different types of "customer" then have a reliable supplier. FreeBSD isn't a commercial venture. It's inappropriate for it to be concerned with "customers." Sellers of disks should be concerned with their customers, but the project should not favor any of them. To allow one seller to hold the FreeBSD trademark is inappropriate and could be greatly damaging to the project. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 10:37:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1F537B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from emailrob.com (175-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.175]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EDF12005B; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:37:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C45C7FD.BA16A3D5@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:35:41 -0600 From: 'emailrob' spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > The distribution does not have "refugee" status. At least two > companies, possibly more, plan to sell copies. It would be > nice, in fact, if there were more -- as there are for > NetBSD. no matter how many vendors, there is ultimately one source. i advocate being able to go to the root of the vendor tree or someone under contract to them. otherwise, eliminate the subscription concept. simply announce the existence of the new item. > >when quality is important, control must be maintained. > > Actually, just the opposite is true. That's the entire philosophy > behind open source: that quality results from contributions and > consensus rather than iron-fisted control by one entity. not true. the quality of the code does not result from the nature of the source of the code. it comes from review of the submissions by competent people whose many responsibilities include keeping out the unsatisfactory. however many layers of review may exist, ultimately a small number of people must make a decision. i want these people to err on the side of caution and i want their fists to be nuclear. > >bring all of the intellectual property [ os, trademark, etc. ] > > under one roof. > > You are starting to sound like Richard Stallman, whose "Free" > (not!) Software Foundation insists upon owning all of the code > of GNU projects, lock, stock, and barrel. (It's a dramatic > demonstration of hypocrisy; this is the same man who claims that > software "should not have owners." Hmmm.) all software should have owners. the public domain is a class of owner for this purpose. it will tend to be acquisitive. > The intellectual property that comprises FreeBSD -- in particular, > the code -- is owned by hundreds of different parties. It will > never be "under one roof." The trademark, however, should be owned > by a neutral party, not by one which might have a motivation to > exclude others. it isn't necessary to be owned. that's what licensing is for. i recommend a different license than gpl. anything on the cd is already under that roof. whoever owns the trademark, it should be used by those who advocate the use of the product. > >different types of "customer" then have a reliable supplier. > > FreeBSD isn't a commercial venture. It's inappropriate for it to > be concerned with "customers." Sellers of disks should be concerned > with their customers, but the project should not favor any of them. > To allow one seller to hold the FreeBSD trademark is inappropriate > and could be greatly damaging to the project. the use of the word 'customer' does not restrict its use to for-profit enterprises. perhaps you prefer "end-user", but this is more restrictive. you have it backwards: i was advocating that the entity holding the mark be a vendor itself, in addition to other vendors under contract to it. rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 10:47:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0320937B419 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26875; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:47:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116113905.01ccea60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:47:00 -0700 To: "'emailrob' spellberg" , FreeBSD Chat List From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall In-Reply-To: <3C45C7FD.BA16A3D5@emailrob.com> References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 AM 1/16/2002, 'emailrob' spellberg wrote: >no matter how many vendors, there is ultimately one source. Not true. Vendors will, and should, add value. >not true. >the quality of the code does not result from > the nature of the source of the code. This is just plain silly. The quality of the operating system is the direct result of the quality of the code. >it comes from review of the submissions by competent people whose > many responsibilities include keeping out the unsatisfactory. >however many layers of review may exist, > ultimately a small number of people must make a decision. >i want these people to err on the side of caution and > i want their fists to be nuclear. Sorry, but in that case you are seeking a commercial model, not an open source one. Truly free code, such as that which is distributed uner the BSD License, can be used in any way one pleases -- including the creation of a bad product. (Windows, for example, includes code from FreeBSD.) But this does not hurt BSD one bit. >all software should have owners. >the public domain is a class of owner for this purpose. You're talking nonsense. Public domain code EXPLICITLY has no owner. >whoever owns the trademark, > it should be used by those who advocate the use of the product. So long as the trademark is owned by a commercial entity, that entity will have a financial motivation to restrict the activities of its competitors. If it's a public company, it can literally be sued by shareholders if it doesn't maximize profits. >you have it backwards: > i was advocating that the entity holding the mark be a vendor itself, > in addition to other vendors under contract to it. You are naive. If a vendor has to beg for permission from a direct competitor to get permission to sell a product, it is best advised to get out of the business. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 11:27:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4431837B402 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g0GJRPr22189; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:27:25 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:27:24 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall Message-ID: <20020116112724.C14632@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20020116094211.Y19885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020116094211.Y19885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 09:51:54AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 09:51:54AM -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I personally have a hard time thinking about going back to > using/buying/supporting FreeBSD mall. I am aware of all Walnut Creek has > done for FreeBSD, but I have a bad taste in my mounth about how things > went with the sale of Walnut Creek's assets previously. Perhaps the > economics forced(?) Walnut Creek to sell. I don't know whether the sell to > BSDI was because of money or seen as an "estratigic" alliance. >=20 > On the other hand I see Daemonnews as a company that is trying to stay > "true" to it's roots. I foresee doing all my BSD purchases from them. At this point I'm doing both. I'll admit the BSDi and WRS thing leaves me with icky feelings, but FreeBSD Mall employees are definatly doing good work today. > I also disliked some comments I read from "Bob Bruce" saying that > Daemonews "jumped the gun" when they created their mall. As I see it there > was a moment where the status of the "FreeBSD Assets" were in the air, > Wind River didn't seem to care, and Daemonews filled in a need in the > market. What could be wrong with that? You might want to reread the article. At least the news.com article attibutes that to Larry Macfarlane at WRS who as far as I can tell has no clue about anything FreeBSD related. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8RdQcXY6L6fI4GtQRAkiWAJkBSXVwQ8GIwNX7XFcHqx0IFSrEcgCcC3+I GFqY06lKso6oEI+AshapFnU= =oqNK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 11:58:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010E737B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from emailrob.com (175-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.175]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6048B12006A for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:58:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C45DAF7.71E1B794@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:56:39 -0600 From: 'emailrob' spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116113905.01ccea60@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Not true. Vendors will, and should, add value. this is a separate issue. > >not true. > >the quality of the code does not result from > > the nature of the source of the code. > > This is just plain silly. The quality of the operating > system is the direct result of the quality of the code. your statement does not refute mine. > >it comes from review of the submissions by competent people whose > > many responsibilities include keeping out the unsatisfactory. > >however many layers of review may exist, > > ultimately a small number of people must make a decision. > >i want these people to err on the side of caution and > > i want their fists to be nuclear. > > Sorry, but in that case you are seeking a commercial model, > not an open source one. Truly free code, such as that which > is distributed uner the BSD License, can be used in any way > one pleases -- including the creation of a bad product. > (Windows, for example, includes code from FreeBSD.) But > this does not hurt BSD one bit. i am talking about freebsd itself, not that which may be built upon it. the fundamental point is that there already exists a commercial model. the os is placed on cdrom and sold for $25 / copy. this is a high margin product. some to the vendor, some to the foundation, etc. not all of us have access to megabit speed as do you. downloading is not practical. i want a reliable supplier. my original question is: why can't the foundation create a sales arm, be that reliable supplier and keep the margin for itself? with increased revenues, there is additional funding for additional projects. this does not preclude the creation of products that could be distributed through, e. g., borders or cdw. how about university bookstores and a student discount? "commercial" and "open-source" are not mutually exclusive. > >all software should have owners. > >the public domain is a class of owner for this purpose. > > You're talking nonsense. Public domain code EXPLICITLY > has no owner. you missed my point; it -was- abstract. > >whoever owns the trademark, > > it should be used by those who advocate the use of the product. > > So long as the trademark is owned by a commercial entity, that > entity will have a financial motivation to restrict the activities > of its competitors. if the other guy's product is inferior, this is doubly good. > If it's a public company, it can literally be > sued by shareholders if it doesn't maximize profits. this is a highly theoretical point and not at all practical. it can be closely held. software authors would be a good choice. > >you have it backwards: > > i was advocating that the entity holding the mark be a vendor itself, > > in addition to other vendors under contract to it. > > You are naive. If a vendor has to beg for permission from a direct > competitor to get permission to sell a product, it is best advised > to get out of the business. you are confused. see above re: retailers. there is nothing which precludes both the commercial version and the essentially zero-cost version. level of support is one way to differentiate. rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 12:36:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F22437B402 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0454.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.199] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16QwnF-0005cr-00; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:36:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3C45E442.C6C69333@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:36:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: 'emailrob' spellberg , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >when quality is important, control must be maintained. > > Actually, just the opposite is true. That's the entire philosophy > behind open source: that quality results from contributions and > consensus rather than iron-fisted control by one entity. I don't know, Brett... he has a point. Look at how uncontrolled the buffalo were when Europeans first hit North America, and how controlled they are now, and how much their quality has gone up as a result... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 12:53:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22D937B405 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0454.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.199] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Qx3t-0000KE-00; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:53:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C45E84A.1BCB4F09@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:53:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 'emailrob' spellberg Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116113905.01ccea60@localhost> <3C45DAF7.71E1B794@emailrob.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 'emailrob' spellberg wrote: > my original question is: > why can't the foundation create a sales arm, > be that reliable supplier and > keep the margin for itself? Right now, there are a number of CDROM vendors who have expressed an interest in creating FreeBSD CDROMs, but there are a number of hurdles in their way. The first hurdle is the use of the trademark. Assuming the trademark is transferred to the FreeBSD Foundation, as was promised, I think that there would be a serious conflict of interest for anyone holding the trademark and also making a distribution of the code. This has been demonstrated in the past by defining "what is FreeBSD?" narrowly enough that the definition was constrained to a CDROM image that was produced by a single vendor, and could not be distributed in its entirety by another vendor (though it was), due to the risk of compilation copyright and file copyright on several files (the vendor in question, "CheapBytes", accepted this risk, which was their option, but it wasn't a common choice). Right now, also, the Foundation must work to maintain its non-profit status, which is subject to audit. Failure to act in accordance with its article of incorporation, or the claims that have resulted in the non-profit status in the first place would be a problem. I think that the safest arrangement would be an independent business organization, which *chose* to donate all profits that it could, to the FreeBSD Foundation. In any case, it's unlikely that you will see a distribution by the FreeBSD Foundation, IMO, unless it is a one-off sent out to universities and high schools, in furtherance of the FreeBSD Foundation charter. In any case, it would not be "for profit", since it could not be. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 12:58:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B36137B416 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from emailrob.com (175-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.175]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9A812006E for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:58:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C45E90F.5DB9EC67@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:56:47 -0600 From: 'emailrob' spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> <3C45E442.C6C69333@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gentlemen --- buffalo? you are arguing "centralized" vs. "decentralized" origination of code. i am arguing "controlled" vs. "uncontrolled" distribution of code. take me as an example. i am relatively new to the neighborhood. if i send in my latist whiz_bang for inclusion in the distribution, will it be included just because i say it's great? or: is there a group of one or more people who will examine my work for things like a] incompetence, or b] malice, before it ever gets near the burner? rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 13:11:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FA137B417 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0454.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.199] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16QxLO-0004bo-00; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:11:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3C45EC88.CE9C8BEA@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:11:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 'emailrob' spellberg Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> <3C45E442.C6C69333@mindspring.com> <3C45E90F.5DB9EC67@emailrob.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 'emailrob' spellberg wrote: > i am arguing "controlled" vs. "uncontrolled" distribution of code. > > take me as an example. > i am relatively new to the neighborhood. > > if i send in my latist whiz_bang for inclusion in the distribution, > will it be included just because i say it's great? > > or: is there a group of one or more people > who will examine my work for things like > > a] incompetence, or > b] malice, > > before it ever gets near the burner? The answer is "Yes, Whoever burns the CDROM will do that". The consequences of them not doing that, and including your program, are that they will go out of business as a point of distribution. Since burning CDROMs in bulk for sale, preparation of jewel cases and docuentation, silk-screen artwork for the CDROM itself, licensing of any books or software (e.g. Partition Magic and Boot Magic) to include with a boxed set, etc., etc., are not free, then it will be a for-profit business. Therefore economics is the check and balance on whether or not they will be successful in continuing their existance as a for-profit business. So if someone incompetantly ships your Trojan Horse on their distribution, their incompetance will force them out of business, and it will be a non-problem from that day forward. I don't understand how you can presume centralized control of distribution is any more a prerequisite for quality than centralized development. FreeBSD, by its very nature assumes that centralized control of developement is *not* a prerequisite. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 13:34:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-64-56-135.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.56.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE82337B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g0GLYcI81770 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:34:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0GLYcl01431 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:34:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:34:38 -0700 From: Chad David To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD vs Solaris Message-ID: <20020116143438.A1368@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for the provocative title :) I am looking at moving samba off of an E5000, and onto a PC (the E5000 is needed for something else), and I'm wondering if anybody is running a samba server this large on FreeBSD, and can offer some advice on what size of machine I need? The E5000 runs an average of 600 samba daemons (up to twice that at peaks), and appears to require at least 1G resident memory just for samba. An attempt was made to move it to a Sunblade 100 (not my idea :)) with 2G Ram, and the box just died (it had over 120 processes in the run queue, 99% cpu is sys and the TCP connection just timed out). One of my major concerns is the FreeBSD VM vs the Solaris VM. The E5000 has 4.5GB memory, and the scan rate averages around 2000 pages / sec with jumps up to 5000-10000 pages / sec. Prior to toning the VM on the E5000 processes would block for seconds waiting for page faults (the box handles between 5 and 50 requests / second with an average backend data set size of 4M, with about 500K being returned to the user [raster images]), The problem is that the underlying filesystem is about 4TB (attached over NFS), with random accesses across it all, so the filesystem caches are useless. Can a PC running FreeBSD handle that type of load? Any advice on how to configure and tune something like this? This is a great chance to get FreeBSD into a multi-national data warehousing / interp. company that only runs Sun! -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year. - Johnathan Swift To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 14:41:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063B037B417 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2310BD65; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25924; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:41:04 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0GMhap06288; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 16 Jan 2002 14:43:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 08:51 AM 1/16/2002, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > >What do you mean by non-profit arm? Are you talking about the foundation? > >They have nothing to do with the mall or vice-versa. The foundation > >doesn't even own the trademark for FreeBSD. > > This is something that should be corrected immediately. In November of > 2000, at BSDCon in Monterey, it was announced that the trademark > would be transferred immediately. Why was that promise broken? If one > of several competing vendors owns the trademark, it unfairly tilts the > playing field. "Unfair" is a unfair word, since whoever owns it has paid good money to pay for and defend it. And so far, the playing field hasn't tilted far enough to worry about; the only advantage is that trademark users are supposed to say something like "The FreeBSD trademark is owned by XXX" or even the silly, but popular "Trademarks are owned by their owners". If XXX tried restricting the use of the mark, wouldn't they loose too much business to continue the policy? And aren't these known to be good guys? But there is always some small risk that the owners will get desparate (medical bills or something) and try fee-licensing or will resell the trademark to someone like the first owner of the Linux trademark who tried fee-licensing Linux, probably just to get a good price for it later. (A price (aka "settlement") which was never disclosed, BTW.) TWO QUESTIONS: 1) Why do we think that The FreeBSD Foundation is any more trustworthy than The FreeBSD Mall? The only thing I know about the board of directors is what I'm willing to believe of their one-page web site http://www.FreeBSDFoundation.org and this announcement http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/foundation/announcement.html . They don't even mention the trademark issue (or recognized it as one) at their site. I think I'll propose to them that they have a big bunch of links to other people's web sites where people can find "references" where people have presented some evidence of their trustworthiness and said whatever else they think of the foundation. I suppose someone else should have another list for links to opinions the foundation wouldn't care to link to. 2) How do we convince The FreeBSD Mall to transfer the trademark? Begging has done wonders in the GNU/Linux world, so some might want to try that, but it's probably going to also take cash from the foundation. What could be done to help them get the money to do it (other than writing a check)? I think the "references" idea above would help a lot. Maybe the foundation should start a special fund for the trademark purchase which should draw a few days of free publicity and would give people a goal to work on and talk about when promoting the foundation. I suppose that it would be best for them to try to negotiate a price or purchase an option to buy the trademark so there actually is a goal number. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 16:12: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB13637B405 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.143.51.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.143.51] helo=blossom.cjclark.org) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16R09u-00069k-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:11:59 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0H0BrX36736 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:11:53 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: The New iMac Message-ID: <20020116161153.D35910@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "The Onion"'s take on the new iMac, http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/infograph_3801.html -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 16:53:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4170437B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 15A3F239A05; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:53:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:53:07 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall Message-ID: <20020117005307.GK5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DesjdUuHQDwS2t4N" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --DesjdUuHQDwS2t4N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-01-16 14:43 -0800, "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: >=20 > 1) Why do we think that The FreeBSD Foundation is any more trustworthy > than The FreeBSD Mall? The only thing I know about the board of The Foundation is made up of former core team members. Its interests echo those of the Project. FreeBSD Mall is perfectly trustworthy,=20 but they're a for-profit entity, not a 501c3 set up entirely for FreeBSD. =20 > 2) How do we convince The FreeBSD Mall to transfer the trademark? They have already promised to do so. Give them a chance, I'm sure the paperwork transferring it from Wind River to them isn't even done yet! Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@zer0.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life.=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --DesjdUuHQDwS2t4N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8RiByIBUx1YRd/t0RAvoYAKCCBVvNKmPXRfBJraj0BPXObJ3ziACfRlHO HdJkdcgiN/0DKMvmmiDKrEc= =rKlQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DesjdUuHQDwS2t4N-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 17:17:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBF337B417 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C74BD08; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10383; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:17:31 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0H1K3F06677; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116102625.01e4f880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116113905.01ccea60@localhost> <3C45DAF7.71E1B794@emailrob.com> <3C45E84A.1BCB4F09@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 16 Jan 2002 17:20:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C45E84A.1BCB4F09@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > I think that the safest arrangement would be an independent > business organization, which *chose* to donate all profits > that it could, to the FreeBSD Foundation. That probably wouldn't be much "safer" because it's donation would be no different than Foundation Gift Shop income or the big gift from Steve Jobs (ha) as none of these would fall into the less-than-four- per-cent category, upon which the non-profit status largely depends. But, one could hope that CD sales wouldn't bring in much money, so it would count as one of the small-potatoes contributions. :-) > In any case, it's unlikely that you will see a distribution by > the FreeBSD Foundation, IMO, unless it is a one-off sent out > to universities and high schools, in furtherance of the FreeBSD > Foundation charter. In any case, it would not be "for profit", > since it could not be. NPOs may make profits -- just not too much profit to keep Uncle Sam happy. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 17:35:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from notes.sfinc.com (notes.sfinc.com [207.66.145.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A3CB37B402; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from yourdomain.net by notes.sfinc.com (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05 (274.9 11-27-1996)) with SMTP id 88256B44.0007796F; Fri, 16 Jan 1970 17:22:19 -0700 From: ashley_franks2@yahoo.com To: peggy w <> Subject: WORK HOME ON YOUR COMPUTER Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:28:55 -0800 X-Sender: ashley_franks2@yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: <20020117013424.7A3CB37B402@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org WORK HOME ON YOUR COMPUTER AND EARN MONEY. In less than 90 days you can earn more than $45.000 simply by sending e-mails. Do you think this is possible? Keep on reading and you will get information about how this is possible. There are no limits. Thanks for your interest. Due to the wide interest this letter has received on the Internet, one of the most respectable news agencies in the United States made a detailed story about this program in order to find out if it really worked, i.e. if you really could gain money this way. They also wanted to find out if it was legal. Their result was that no laws prohibit programs like this or people to participate in it. In fact, this is a simple and legal way to earn money from your own home. Furthermore, the news show established that the participants were unusually many and that their lives took a swift turn for the better. Every participant received a high amount of money in a short time and hence, the word got around fast. As soon as you get our point you will have learned something new. HERE IT COMES You should print this out and keep it available. This way to earn money will surely catch your interest. You start by small investment and the result will be enormous. If you want to earn more than $45.000 in less than 90 days, read through this letter . think about it . and read it again. This is a legal way to earn money. You do not have to sell any product nor work hard, and best of all, you even do not have to leave your home. If you believe that one day you will make it, follow these instructions and your dreams will come true. This Multi-Level-Marketing Program works 100%. E-mail is today's future sales tool. Take advantage of this advertising technology right now and participate. Today, Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) is accepted in the world of business. As an example we can tell you that it is taught in Harvard University. Stanford Research and Wall Street Journal have verified that 50-65% of all merchandise and service industry takes place with MLM. This is a million dollar industry and 20% (700.000 individuals) of the world's 3.500.000 millionaires got their success through MLM. Statistics show us that each day 100 individuals are added to this group. You may think that this is a cliché you have heard before, but Donald Trump (one of the world's richest man) said in a David Letterman- show last summer that if he lost everything and had to start over he would definitely start by founding an Internet MLM business. The audience on the show yelled and protested and Mr. Trump responded by saying, "This is the reason why you are sitting down there and I am sitting up here!". MLM has two sources of income. First, you have income through your own sale and second, you receive income by introducing new participants. Non-stop incoming is the secret of the rich, which means that you invest with a small amount of money and get great returns. MLM means getting money with the help of others and their work. This program is now working in 50 countries around the world. I had almost let this information pass me but luckily I decided to give it a chance and study it carefully. My name is Petra Pieren, I am a housewife and the mother of two children. My husband and me have for a long time search for an easy way to earn money. We had financial difficulties and for a while we were living in poverty. We asked ourselves how on earth we could make this work in the future? Despite our fear of having not enough money to live, we were too proud to accept help from the social workers. We believed that one day our luck would turn. Somebody emailed me this program twice and I ignored it, because I assumed that these extraordinary high amounts of money meant that it had to be illegal. Finally in March this year I received the email again and decided to give it a chance and read it carefully. I saw that this was my chance to turn things around for my family and me. I thank God that my name was on one of the lists and I decided to take part. When money started coming in I thought that it was too good to be true. I began by investing without putting my self in debt. We read the whole thing through once more, recalculated our investments, and found out that we would always get the money invested returned. But we were sceptical, like you maybe, that this was legal so we contacted U.S. Post Office (tel. 001-800-725-2161/24) and they verified that what we were taking part in was totally legal. We decided to take part because we realised that this is a legal program and CERTAINLY NOT A CHAIN LETTER. I started by buying an internet-connection, which cost me 25 SFR, and sent a few thousands of e-mails. The advantage of e-mail is that there is no need to buy expensive paper, it only takes some of your time! I am honest when I tell you, and hopefully it doesn't frighten you, that I promised myself that no matter what I would never drag anyone by the tail/participate in anything that would make fool out of other people. Within a week orders for Report #1 started coming. The goal is to receive 20 orders of Report #1 within two weeks. If this doesn't succeed all you have to do is send more people emails about this program until you reach your goal. This was my first step to earn $45.000 within 90 days. Next goal is to receive 100 orders of Report #2 within 2 weeks. If that doesn't happen to you simply send more emails like you did with Report #1. Once these 100 orders are achieved the rest is easy. All you have to do is sit back and relax because the $45.000 profit is secured. Give yourself enough time to read about this program. Consider the fact, that if you don't take part the program will not work for you. The program works but you need to follow the instructions carefully. Take good care to place your name at the right place on the list, because otherwise you could loose considerable money. In order for this program to work as it should and bring you the whole $45.000, you need to receive 20 orders of Report #1 and at least 100 for Report #2. If you decide not to take part in this program I will be sorry for your half, because this is an extraordinary chance to gain financial independence with minimum risk and cost. Yours sincerely, Petra Pieran A PERSONAL REMARK FROM THE FOUNDER OF THE PROGRAM You should now have realised that amateurs did not make this program Let me begin by telling you a bit about myself. I had a successful business for 10 years but in 1997 things started going for the worst. I continued working in the same way that brought me success before but it just didn't work anymore. I discovered that the problem had its origin in the economy system itself but not me. The so-called stabilised economy that has been dominant since 1945 is history because of inflation and recession. I don't need to tell you how unemployment rates went up because you lived it yourselves, along with bankruptcies in every part of the world. Middleclass evaporated and those who knew what they were doing advanced in society. Those who did nothing became poor. As the saying goes: "The richer will get richer and the poorer poorer." Be sure that conventional way to earn money will not bring you success because of the inflation. You have already received information that will change your life and bring you success without high risks or costs. You can earn more money in the next months than you have ever dreamed of. I would like to underline that neither me, nor the person who gathered this information for you, will share your profit. I have already earned over $4 million by sending 1,6 million e-mails. Now I run many offices that make sure that this program, along with others alike, is working both in U.S.A and Europe. Follow the program carefully; do not change any aspect of it because it works perfectly like it is. You can send this program to everybody you know and one of them will than send 100.000 e-mails with your name in it. You get more clients by sending more e-mail. Now I have given you an idea, information, material and a chance to gain financial independence and it's your turn. Think carefully. Take a while and think before you delete this text. Grab a pencil and calculate possible outcomes of your participation in the program. Assume that few orders come in and you will see that no matter what, you will still be gaining much money. You will always get your investment returned. All your doubts will disappear when the first orders start pouring in. It works! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW THIS EXTRAORDINARY PROGRAM WORKS AND BRINGS YOU MILLIONS This method of earning money always works 100%. I am sure that you can find a use for $45.000 in the next few months. Before you denounce this please read this carefully through because we are telling you about a perfectly legal way to earn money. This is what you should do: 1. Order all six Reports, which are on the list because you can not sell a report if you don't own it. a. Send $5 dollar bill for each Report, or the same amount in your local currency (always bill not change), the number and title of the Report and your name along with your address (in case of problems with the mail) to the person on the list on that Report. b. You need to order all six Reports when you order. You need to have a downloaded file of all six Reports when you start sending it from your own computer. c. In a few days, you will receive a file of all six Reports through e-mail and you can then download them on your hard disk, where they will wait to be sent to thousands of people who will order from you. 2. NOTICE: Do not change names or their order on the lists. If you change something in the program you will loose high amount of money. Once you have understood how the program works you will understand why it doesn't work if you change it. Consider the fact that this program has undergone tests in order to make it fail to work if you change it. a. Take the list that contains the Reports. b. Once you have ordered all the Reports, you should take the text the goes with the list and change the name and address in Report #6 and put instead in the name from Report #5. Presumably the person who owns the name in Report #6 has closed his/her circle and is now enjoying $45.000. c. Move name and address in Report #4 to Report #5. d. Move name and address in Report #3 to Report #4. e. Move name and address in Report #2 to Report #3. f. Move name and address in Report #1 to Report #2. g. Put your own name and address in Report #1. 3. Gather a list of all the names and download it without changes on your hard disc. Make no alterations on the instructions. Minimum cost is spent on starting (we can all spare $30). Obviously you own a computer and an e-mail account. In order to succeed your marketing on the net you need to own all 6 Reports. They contain invaluable marketing information about how to send e-mails in large quantities. Furthermore, you will be informed about Internet marketing clubs such as the Internet Marketing Resources (IMR) which one of its kind. It works as information centres for people in marketing from all over the world and gives them an opportunity to exchange ideas and secrets about the advantages of Internet marketing. In addition, members of the club get a free copy of a special marketing tool which is called "do it your self" marketing. You will be given free e-mail software and through that up to 1.000.000 e-mail addresses every week. These club gives you access to hundreds of free web-sides and advertise your own webside. You will be able to send much e-mail to AOL and CompuServe and introduce your product with newsgroups. METHOD 1: E-MAIL ADVERTISMENT Let's take an example. You start small to see how you do. You and your friends send 2000 programs each through e-mail and get 0,3% ratings. If your lists are good you will have a much better rating. Furthermore, some will send more than 2000 e-mails, even 100.000 or more. O, 3% rating would mean 6 orders on Report #1. Each of those six individuals will then e-mail 2000 programs, in all 12.000 programs, and 0,3% of their recipients, i.e. 36 persons, will order Report #2. Those 36 individuals will then continue and send 2000 programs each or 72.000 programs. That would lead to at least 216 orders of Report #3. Those 216 individuals send each 2000 programs, in all 432.000 e-mails. That would lead to 1.296 individuals ordering Report #4 and each of those individuals would send 2.592.000 programs, which means that orderings coming in for Report #5 should be about 7.776. Which means that 7.776 individuals would send you $5. What would happen if 1994 individuals out of 2000 would decide not to take part and delete the program? Think about what would happen if all of the 2000 people would send 100.000 e-mails instead of 2000. Believe me, many will do that because the costs is close to zero. Obviously, you now have an Internet link and e-mail. Report #2 and Report 5# show you how to send e-mails in large quantities and free software to send as much as 1.000.000 e-mails without costs. METHOD TWO: HOW TO ADVERTISE ON THE INTERNET FOR FREE. 1. To advertise on the Internet is very practical. One can find hundreds of free space for advertisement. Lets take an example: You would like to start slow to see how it goes. Your aim is to get 6 people on level 1 and these 6 individuals will then only get another 6. Level 1. Your 6 with $5 ($5 multiplied by 6).........$30 Level 2. Your 6 with their 6 ($5 multiplied by 36)......$180 Level 3. Your 6 with their 36 ($5 multiplied by 216)....$1.080 Level 4. Your 6 with their 216 ($5 multiplied by 1296).....$6.480 Level 5. Your 6 with their 1296 ($5 multiplied by 7776)...$38.880 Level 6. Your 6 with their 7776 ($5 multiplied by 46656)..$233.280 Total Sum ...............$279.930 For every $5 you receive you simply send the Report requested in e-mail. You should always respond to an order on the same day it arrives. As soon as you respond the client can start working in your favour. REPORTS AVAILABLE Order all the six Reports according their number and title. NOTICE: You should always send a $5 bill, never coins or cheques. Send the order with ordinary mail; fold a paper around the bill before putting it in the envelope and on the paper you should write the following: a. Number and title of the Report. b. Your e-mail address. c. Name and address. Report #1: The insider's guide to advertising for free on the Internet Flosi JakobssonPo Box: 4345,124 Reykjavik, Iceland Report #2: The insider's guide to sending bulk e-mail on the Internet Maria HaraldsdottirPo Box: 5426,125 Reykavik, Iceland Report #3: The secrets to MLM ,Multi-Level Marketing" on the Internet AEvar B. JakobssonPo Box: 9087129 Reykjavik, Iceland Report #4: How to become a millionaire utilizing the power of MLM and the Internet Aslaug SkeggjadottirPo Box: 4095,124 Reykjavik Iceland Report #5: 1 million e-mail dispatching ability, FREE! Hallbera BjarnadottirFludasel 95,109 Reykjavik, Iceland Report #6: The address list generator, FREE never ending fresh addresses Elvar JakobssonRübenkamp 82, 22307 Hamburg, (Germany) To remember!  Consider the program your job. Follow the instructions carefully.  ORDER ALL SIX REPORTS IMMEDIATELY, so they will be available to you, when orders start coming in.  Always respond to order on the same day.  Be patient when you use this program because if you follow instructions the result will be in your favour.  By all means, believe in you. P.S. AT THIS MOMENT 175.000 INDIVIDUALS ARE USING THIS PROGRAM! The goal is to get 20 orders for Report #1 and 100 orders for Report #2. After that, you can relax and the money will start coming in. IMPORTANT Each time you move a name off the list, your name will be put in another Report. You can follow up on your results by checking the numbers of ordered Reports. If you want to earn more money you can simply start a new round of e-mails, because there are no limits. Before you decide if you want to participate answer one question: THE QUESTION IS: DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, then check this out. 1. You will be selling a product which has no production cost. 2. You will be selling a product which has no transportation cost. 3. You will be selling a product which has no advertisement cost. 4. You will use the power of the Internet and MLM to distribute your product around the world. 5. The only investment you make is $30 and your time. 6. All income is pure profit. TESTIMONY Here are few examples of people who have become rich working this program. Mitchell Wolf. Chicago, IL. He earned $147.200 in $5 bills in 45 days. Pam Hedland, Halmstad, Sweden earned in the first 2 weeks $36.470 in $5 bills and the money kept coming in. Mohammed, Cairo, Egypt. In 4 weeks he earned $41.000 Order these Reports today and become financially independent. It is your turn! The results are marvellous This is a one time mailing. To be removed from our database, reply with "REMOVE" in the subject line. To ensure that the "unsubscribe process" has been completed successfully please allow 2 weeks. We do apologize for any interim emails that are received while we are updating our records. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 19:16:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFD037B405 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:16:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A9A7878308; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:46:24 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:46:24 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Yana Lehey Subject: Off topic: visiting Japan in April Message-ID: <20020117134624.R95888@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, strictly nothing's off topic on -chat, but this probably comes close. My daughter Yana is studying Japanese, and would like to spend April in Japan, and is looking for a host family to stay with. We've had a couple of leads, but nothing of much use. If anybody can help, I'd be grateful. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 21:11:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C501E37B402 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05195 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:11:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116220916.01f46dd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:11:10 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: BSD presence at LinuxWorld NYC? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will the BSDs have a presence at LinuxWorld in New York at the end of January? So far, I've heard that Perry Metzger (Wasabi) will have a booth. But will OpenBSD and FreeBSD be represented, especially now that Wind River Systems is divesting itself of all its FreeBSD activities? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 16 21:23:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0787937B404 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0H5NQi18809; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:23:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:25:13 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Robert Bruce Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall In-Reply-To: <20020117021632.8302E2E81B@mail.freebsdmall.com> Message-ID: <20020117001907.D21588-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Robert Bruce wrote: > >I also disliked some comments I read from "Bob Bruce" saying that > >Daemonews "jumped the gun" when they created their mall > > Hi Francisco, > I never said that. > -bob Sorry for the miss-association. I was corrected by someone else and they mentioned who actually said that. For those of us that know little about all the details of why/how the FreeBSD "assets" have changed hands recently. Any briefs on how the FreeBSDmall will differ from let's say Daemonnews Mall? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 9:38:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0457737B402 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16RGUH-0004EE-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:38:05 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id g0HHc5C04350 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:38:05 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:38:04 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Software warranty and liability Message-ID: <20020117173804.A4333@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Scanner: exiscan *16RGUH-0004EE-00*LzvYoDT/80o* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone else find it interesting there are lobbyists fighting to force GPL software to come with a warranty, while most proprietary developers have an EULA that protects them from nearly all liability? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 12: 6:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BD037B404 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1781F239A05; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:06:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:06:49 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD presence at LinuxWorld NYC? Message-ID: <20020117200649.GL5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116220916.01f46dd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYjDATHXTWnytHRU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020116220916.01f46dd0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Organization: daemonnews X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --zYjDATHXTWnytHRU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-01-16 22:11 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Will the BSDs have a presence at LinuxWorld in New York at the end of=20 > January? So far, I've heard that Perry Metzger (Wasabi) will have a=20 > booth. But will OpenBSD and FreeBSD be represented, especially now that= =20 > Wind River Systems is divesting itself of all its FreeBSD activities? Daemon News will have a booth at the show, so all the BSDs will be represented. We attend quite a number of shows; most recently we were at MacWorld, talking to lots of Macintosh users about Darwin. OpenBSD also was popular at that show due to its PPC support. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Only two things are infinite, the mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org universe and human stupidity, and I'm http://www.daemonnews.org/ not sure about the former. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD - Albert Einstein --zYjDATHXTWnytHRU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8Ry7YIBUx1YRd/t0RAhS/AJ9YYw2+/m98vFySmN+FXVBJN7XeeACePMmd UOsGNZumb+muiKWi+JkR6/w= =ncXz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYjDATHXTWnytHRU-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 12:31:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE6037B400 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0559.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.49] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16RJC8-0003Io-00; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:31:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3C47349E.E15FA8B2@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:31:26 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software warranty and liability References: <20020117173804.A4333@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > Does anyone else find it interesting there are lobbyists fighting to > force GPL software to come with a warranty, while most proprietary > developers have an EULA that protects them from nearly all liability? This must be a European Union thing. I guess if GPL software is so superiour, then it won't mind warranting the code... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 13:26:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13A837B404 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B23BD60; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30797; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:26:51 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0HLTH907027; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Software warranty and liability References: <20020117173804.A4333@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3C47349E.E15FA8B2@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Jan 2002 13:29:16 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C47349E.E15FA8B2@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > j mckitrick wrote: > > Does anyone else find it interesting there are lobbyists fighting to > > force GPL software to come with a warranty, while most proprietary > > developers have an EULA that protects them from nearly all liability? It's even more interesting if you think, as I do, that the GPL and BSDL licenses have gigantic liability loop-holes that typical EULA licenses don't have. One may legally obtain/posess/own/execute copies of GPL'd and BSDL'd software without having accepted or even seen their licenses and thus without having agreed to the terms or signed up to the waiver of liability or the claim that the software is as-is and without warrantee. So, free software might alreay have some warrantee, at least in some legal jurisdictions. Actually, I suspect (but have no evidence) that courts would treat free (including public domain) software's liability/warrantee exposure pretty-much the same regardless of what the license says or doesn't say. As to what that exposure might be, the only evidence we have is that we know of nobody having even been sued over such matters. (However, we DO know about the liability of free, open source public swimming pools.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 14: 0:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1590A37B404 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16137; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:00:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020117145858.00b25450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:59:59 -0700 To: Gregory Sutter , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall Cc: FreeBSD Chat List In-Reply-To: <20020117005307.GK5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:53 PM 1/16/2002, Gregory Sutter wrote: >> 2) How do we convince The FreeBSD Mall to transfer the trademark? > >They have already promised to do so. Give them a chance, I'm sure >the paperwork transferring it from Wind River to them isn't even >done yet! Why transfer it twice? Wind River has an obligation to make good on BSDi's promise to transfer the trademark directly to the Foundation. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 15:22: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E98337B402 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04174 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:24:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201172324.SAA04174@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: A CDROM based firewall----Which Os do i use? Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:22:01 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org for those of you interested, what OS do you recommend as a good starting point for a bootable, CDROM based firewall. seeing as how this is freebsd-chat the obvious choice would be Freebsd. However seeing as a firewall needs to be secure as possible, wouldn't Openbsd make better sense? or would distributing it as a ISO image violate Theo's copyright? also there is NetBSD. it would be nice for this project to support anything with a cpu and cdrom. what do you guys think? freebsd rocks, but sometimes there are other choices that make more sense. nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 15:44:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EB537B400 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16RMCU-00035H-00; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:44:06 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:44:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A CDROM based firewall----Which Os do i use? In-Reply-To: <200201172324.SAA04174@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Nathan Mace wrote: > for those of you interested, what OS do you recommend as a good starting > point for a bootable, CDROM based firewall. seeing as how this is > freebsd-chat the obvious choice would be Freebsd. However seeing as a > firewall needs to be secure as possible, wouldn't Openbsd make better sense? Of course, FreeBSD also strives for doing things right. (Are you saying that FreeBSD can't or isn't secure as possible?) > or would distributing it as a ISO image violate Theo's copyright? If your chose to base it on OpenBSD and you developed your own layout and ISO image, then it would be different. (The FAQ says that only his CD layout is copyrighted. Your unofficial layout is okay.) > also there is NetBSD. it would be nice for this project to support anything > with a cpu and cdrom. Well it would be interesting to have a single CD that would boot a ready to run firewall on several architectures. But I don't think that is really needed. > what do you guys think? freebsd rocks, but sometimes there are other choices > that make more sense. By the way, there are several CD-based firewalls (some proprietary and some open source) for all three BSDs. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 16:42:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7157F37B419 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-52-104.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.52.104]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0I0fxG29857 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:41:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3C476F57.88790714@nobaloney.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:41:59 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software warranty and liability References: <20020117173804.A4333@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > Does anyone else find it interesting there are lobbyists fighting to > force GPL software to come with a warranty, while most proprietary > developers have an EULA that protects them from nearly all liability? In the United States there's a doctrine of implied warranty. That's why most warranties say they're a "Limited Warranty"; their entire purpose, generally, is to protect companies from liability, not to offer any meaningful warranty. Sad but true state of affairs. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 16:43:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F9137B402 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-52-104.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.52.104]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0I0hpG29958 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:43:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C476FC9.D69931E@nobaloney.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:43:53 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A CDROM based firewall----Which Os do i use? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > If your chose to base it on OpenBSD and you developed your own layout > and ISO image, then it would be different. (The FAQ says that only his CD > layout is copyrighted. Your unofficial layout is okay.) I just wanted to point out that there's a big difference between copyright and license. Software can be copyrighted, and the license can certainly still allow you to copy it. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 18:32: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2D437B400 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA951431; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20315; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:31:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:31:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A CDROM based firewall----Which Os do i use? In-Reply-To: <200201172324.SAA04174@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > for those of you interested, what OS do you recommend as a good starting > point for a bootable, CDROM based firewall. seeing as how this is > freebsd-chat the obvious choice would be Freebsd. However seeing as a > firewall needs to be secure as possible, wouldn't Openbsd make better sense? > or would distributing it as a ISO image violate Theo's copyright? Go with Linux. Nah, I'm just kidding. :-) AFAIK, you are able to create (and even sell) OpenBSD ISOs. However, the original CD (and therefore its image) that the OpenBSD group creates is copyrighted, and you are not able to distribute it. But downloading the files, and creating your own CD (and selling that) is legit. At least, that's my understanding, and I have been wrong before. > also there is NetBSD. it would be nice for this project to support anything > with a cpu and cdrom. NetBSD would be an interesting choice, but really, do you need to support EVERYTHING? I mean, some things don't make good firewalls; my Dreamcast doesn't even have the capability to do so. If you feel that a lot of NetBSDs ports seem reasonable as firewalls, it might be a good choice. > what do you guys think? freebsd rocks, but sometimes there are other choices > that make more sense. If you're looking to stick to one of the BSDs, I think it's a choice between Open and Free. When they're both stripped down, I don't think that security will be much of an issue on either. In my experience, FreeBSD is slightly faster, so if you're targeting low-end (like 486) machines, it might be better. FreeBSD also has more hardware support, I think. (That's just a guess, but last time I looked into Open I thought it was true.) But OpenBSD does have a few ports that WOULD make sense as firewalls, such as Sparc and PPC, so that's an advantage for it. I think what really needs to be done is you need to get together with people you want to work with, and determine what your goals are. When you have those, the OS of choice will select itself. (BTW, whichever route you choose, I would be interested in helping, if nothing else by doing a little testing. I'm not much of an OS hacker, but if I've got the time, I'm willing to give some work.) -- Jeremy There is a fly on your nose. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 19:46:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841EB37B41C for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16RPym-000H0X-00; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 03:46:12 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id g0I3kCo07509; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 03:46:12 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 03:46:12 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software warranty and liability Message-ID: <20020118034612.A7477@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020117173804.A4333@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3C47349E.E15FA8B2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3C47349E.E15FA8B2@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:31:26PM -0800 X-Scanner: exiscan *16RPym-000H0X-00*zzWr.dQn6IE* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:31:26PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: | j mckitrick wrote: | > Does anyone else find it interesting there are lobbyists fighting to | > force GPL software to come with a warranty, while most proprietary | > developers have an EULA that protects them from nearly all liability? | | This must be a European Union thing. | | I guess if GPL software is so superiour, then it won't mind | warranting the code... According to the latest rumor, Stallman is going postal over the idea. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 19:48:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6244E37B416 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA10100; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:50:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201180350.WAA10100@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: Jeremy Karlson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A CDROM based firewall----Which Os do i use? Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:47:35 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org welli'm following Jeremy's advice. anyone that interested in being involved in this project, head's up: why do you guys think? i think he was right about netbsd being a little bit overkill in terms of we don't need support THAT MANY platforms. i'm leaning towards openbsd. i love freebsd dearly, but your average run of the mill linux user will be more likely to trust openbsd than he will freebsd simply because thats what he read in the comments at /. thats not to say that freebsd can't be made as secure as openbsd, it's just that openbsd is *more secure out of the box*, and it is also precieved by the public as being the more secure option. let me if there's something i've forget ;) also, someone said that there are some bsd based firewalls on CDROM out there on the 'Net. i've looked and looked and can't find any. where are they? assuming they are any good why not try them and see what there is that we like and what we don't. please post any URL's nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 20:17:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.bsdhome.com (rdu25-2-113.nc.rr.com [24.25.2.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6338437B400 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from neutrino.bsdhome.com (jupiter [192.168.220.13]) by smtp.bsdhome.com (8.11.3nb1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g0I4HE719659; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bsd@localhost) by neutrino.bsdhome.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0I4H8O84961; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bsd) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:17:08 -0500 From: Brian Dean To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a CDROM based firewall Message-ID: <20020117231708.A16190@neutrino.bsdhome.com> References: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201150509.AAA07250@uce55.uchaswv.edu>; from nmace85@yahoo.com on Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:06:41AM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > anyone see any serious problems with this? anyone know if there are any > projects like this already out there? thanks I've done it. See: http://people.freebsd.org/~bsd/cdroot/ -Brian -- Brian Dean bsd@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 17 22:25:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0E837B400 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B745C239A06; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:25:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:25:36 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall Message-ID: <20020118062536.GM5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020117145858.00b25450@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/ZYM6PqDyfNytx60" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020117145858.00b25450@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --/ZYM6PqDyfNytx60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-01-17 14:59 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:53 PM 1/16/2002, Gregory Sutter wrote: >=20 > >> 2) How do we convince The FreeBSD Mall to transfer the trademark? > > > >They have already promised to do so. Give them a chance, I'm sure > >the paperwork transferring it from Wind River to them isn't even > >done yet! >=20 > Why transfer it twice? Wind River has an obligation to make good on=20 > BSDi's promise to transfer the trademark directly to the Foundation. Apparently they don't feel that obligation. Luckily, the organization they've transferred the trademark _to_ has already promised to make the transfer to the FreeBSD Foundation as soon as they are able. Since WRS was so obviously reluctant to make any efforts on the behalf of FreeBSD, aside from finding a suitable recipient for their product repertoire and customer list, we should be very happy that a known-good organization has made this deal. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter "I think not," said Descartes... mailto:gsutter@zer0.org and promptly disappeared. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ =20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD =20 --/ZYM6PqDyfNytx60 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8R7/gIBUx1YRd/t0RAsBYAKCAAnkBdsHj254MzK082p/e0BFBIgCfR4KQ kp2+7PXdSX/Qf9iory9wifg= =TnTJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/ZYM6PqDyfNytx60-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 0:29:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-131.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5B937B419 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BB03B66E1C; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:29:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 00:29:07 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A CDROM based firewall----Which Os do i use? Message-ID: <20020118002906.A27775@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200201172324.SAA04174@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201172324.SAA04174@uce55.uchaswv.edu>; from nmace85@yahoo.com on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 06:22:01PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 06:22:01PM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > for those of you interested, what OS do you recommend as a good starting= =20 > point for a bootable, CDROM based firewall. seeing as how this is=20 > freebsd-chat the obvious choice would be Freebsd. However seeing as a=20 > firewall needs to be secure as possible, wouldn't Openbsd make better sen= se? =20 I don't really understand the mentality of "It's a firewall, so we want it to be as secure as possible, so that means we should use OpenBSD". If you want to use some feature of OpenBSD then fine, but the track record of OpenBSD with respect to remote holes is no better than FreeBSD, if you actually look at it. Until recently OpenBSD even used the same firewall package which is included in FreeBSD (then they rewrote it from scratch :-). Since you're building a firewall, and that means you have to configure it by hand according to your security policy, you can make just as much of a security mess in either OS :-) Kris --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8R9zSWry0BWjoQKURApCNAJ40JXN02rFy6fQzPpA99m4ILhev0ACfbR9S qQYhg6h48KliYVkjnIepZrg= =jva+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 1:13:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EEA37B416 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0026.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.26] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16RV5Z-0001R4-00; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:13:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C47E739.52FE8269@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:13:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSDmall vs Daemonnews mall References: <3C459893.44485DA3@emailrob.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020116085240.01c9e3e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020117145858.00b25450@localhost> <20020118062536.GM5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > Apparently they don't feel that obligation. Luckily, the organization > they've transferred the trademark _to_ has already promised to make > the transfer to the FreeBSD Foundation as soon as they are able. The USPTO database say this is Walnut Cree CDROM again?!? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 13:48:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B9337B41A for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-239.wobline.de [212.68.69.250]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0ILlua00914 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:47:56 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0ILnZX03471 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:49:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0ILmTb00830 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:48:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:47:54 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: New European Warranty Message-ID: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 10:32PM up 8:18, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.04, 0.06 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, the following has nothing to do with FreeBSD (that's why I post it to -chat), but I've been thinking about it a little recently, and that's why I thought I might bring it up here. As some of you may have noticed (especially European folks), a new law from the European Union took effect on January 1st that requires retailers to grant customers a two year warranty on products. Before this regulation took effect, warranty periods varied from country to country. In Germany, for example, retailers were required by law to give a six months warranty - if they wanted to go beyond that, they could do so at their own decision, probably even for an additional payment from the customer. Now, basically, this new 2 year warranty sounds good, as it means (in comparison to prior German law) that I do now have four times as much time during which I can get a product that failed exchanged. Unluckily, I have read (and noticed myself) that some retailers and manufacturers raised the prices of their products in order to cover the increased chance of warranty claims from customers. So I may have to pay more and never benefit from this new regulation, and that's the point! In the computing field, I have made the following observations: If you buy a mainboard, CPU, graphics card or whatever, it is likely that it would fail *very early* if there is actually some manuafcturing defect. In this case, it would very likely fail within the first six months, so the old warranty regulation would be enough. If an item doesn't fail "early", it is unlikely that it will fail in the years to come, i.e. the two years that this new warranty covers. I guess that after *many* years, probably 10 or more, a mainboard, CPU or graphics card would naturally fail, as the failure rate increases at such age. In other words: The failure rate for such devices is somewhat high in the beginning, then gets low for a lot years, and as the device really becomes old, the failure rate increases again. Basically, under these viewpoints the two years warranty is useless. There are some devices that fail more often than a CPU, for example hard disk drives. However, I know that manufaturers have generally given a somewhat extended warranty on these - 3 years is common for Western Digital drives, for example. In the end, what I've been wondering about is this: What's the good thing about this new warranty regulation? The folks that made it up probably wanted to protect the customers, but realistically, if I have to pay a higher price on about *every* item I buy and only benefit from the extended warranty in 1% of the cases or so, doesn't it do more bad than good? Comments are welcome ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 13:50:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961C337B417 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01787; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:50:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020118144944.02859570@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:50:31 -0700 To: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New European Warranty In-Reply-To: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:47 PM 1/18/2002, Nils Holland wrote: >In the end, what I've been wondering about is this: What's the good thing >about this new warranty regulation? Not much, for computers. For some other products, such as, say, a car or a new roof, it may be a better fit for the period when defects show up. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 14:10:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C3D37B41F for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 3626B14C03; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 23:09:57 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New European Warranty References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jan 2002 23:09:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > In the computing field, I have made the following observations: If > you buy a mainboard, CPU, graphics card or whatever, it is likely > that it would fail *very early* if there is actually some > manuafcturing defect. [...] The failure rate for such devices is > somewhat high in the beginning, then gets low for a lot years, and > as the device really becomes old, the failure rate increases again. This is known as the "bathtub curve". > In the end, what I've been wondering about is this: What's the good thing > about this new warranty regulation? The folks that made it up probably > wanted to protect the customers, but realistically, if I have to pay a > higher price on about *every* item I buy and only benefit from the extended > warranty in 1% of the cases or so, doesn't it do more bad than good? I think you'll change your tune the day your 7-month old motherboard fries and you get a new one under warranty thanks to the new European regulation :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 14:45: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9D437B417 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0424.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.169] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Rhke-0007Up-00; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:44:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:44:45 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New European Warranty References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > There are some devices that fail more often than a CPU, for example hard > disk drives. However, I know that manufaturers have generally given a > somewhat extended warranty on these - 3 years is common for Western Digital > drives, for example. Fans. Unfiltered power supply fans, particulary, but CPU fans with low clearance, as well. If the only thing that comes out of this is that the fans don't start making inordinate amounts of noice, it's cool. Personally, every new machine I get with a power supply fan (all desktop and desk-side machines, basically), I immediately take apart, open the power supply (voiding the warranty, in the process), and reverse the direction of the fan (making it pull air in instead of pushing air out), adding an external dust filter on the outside that it has to suck air through. After this modification, I now have power supplies that have lasted many years in "dusty" environments, when before the fan would sieze up in 9 months to a year, cook the supply, and then (occasionally) cook the computer as well. Not surprisingly, my CDROM and floppy and tape drives, with filtered air being escaping through them, rather than the unfiltered air being sucked into them, depositing dust over the optics and heads, also have had significantly fewer problems since I began this practice, 8 years ago. So if it also prevents idiots from keeping their jobs doing system design and building machines that fail around the time of their planned obsolescence, I'm all for that, too. And guess what? If you aren't buying replacement hardware every year or so, then they don't have a continuing revenue stream, and the money will have to come from somewhere, and you really can't expect it to come from them innovating new and desirable products, and selling those, instead. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 18:25:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B677B37B404 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FEBBCAA for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06380 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:25:29 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0J2RlV07686; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New European Warranty References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Jan 2002 18:27:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Not surprisingly, my CDROM and floppy and tape drives, with > filtered air being escaping through them, rather than the > unfiltered air being sucked into them, depositing dust over > the optics and heads, also have had significantly fewer > problems since I began this practice, 8 years ago. Glad to hear it! I'm suprised how few discussions of case cooling mention it.I've been preaching that idea whenever the subject comes up for the last few years, except I've been too lazy to change my power supply fan. I've only got another case fan sucking through a filter with only a slight case positive pressure. Another thing people should do is get a can of compressed air (or a tank and non-oily compresser) and blast the dust off every few months. Someone had a great article on cooling a few months back (I lost it, drat) in which he showed that increased pressure has negligible effect on cooling and adding a case fan which sucks to a case with a fan that blows has a non-negiligible, but seldom-worth-it effect on cooling. I wish he'd have suggested Terry's idea, and suggested adding air escapes near hard drives. I'll bet the 2-year warrantees promote hardware abuse. Why bother buying an extra case fan when you can rely on the warrantee until it's obsolete in 2 years? Then there's the overclockers... I'd much rather have a choice in warrantees. Ever noticed that many people buy always service aggrements, many never do, and many do it sometimes? Why should bureaucrats descide that sort of thing? P.S. Surely, those warrantee requirements aren't required for software (except for the media readability)? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 18 18:36:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FE837B402 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA5E5501; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:28:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-244.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.244]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7335250055; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 02:35:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 9C92C332A; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 02:35:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982BA4C3B; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 02:35:50 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 02:35:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nils Holland , Subject: Re: New European Warranty In-Reply-To: <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum Inc. X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway-Joke: Asleep at the wheel. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Not surprisingly, my CDROM and floppy and tape drives, with > filtered air being escaping through them, rather than the > unfiltered air being sucked into them, depositing dust over > the optics and heads, also have had significantly fewer > problems since I began this practice, 8 years ago. Alright Terry -- you've finally sold me on it. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 19 1:26:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B31437B405 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 01:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-195.wobline.de [212.68.69.206]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0J9Q0a29198; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:26:00 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0J9ReX08279; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:27:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0J9Qkh01798; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:26:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:26:46 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New European Warranty Message-ID: <20020119102646.A1725@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:27:47PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD howie.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 10:20AM up 34 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.52, 0.36, 0.38 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:27:47PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen stood up and spoke: > > Another thing people should do is get a can of compressed air (or a tank > and non-oily compresser) and blast the dust off every few months. Hmm, I noticed that doing that to the components in the computer only moves the dust somewhere else - either to other places in the case, or right into my face or onto my working area. A few years back, I saw a "computer vacuum pack", containing a hose and some small nozzles that can be connected to an ordinary vacuum cleaner. I've made some good experiences with this, as it really sucks the dust out of the computer instead of spreading it around. Additionally, the smallest nozzle in this set is well suited to suck all the cookie-remains from between the keys on my keyboard ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 19 3: 6:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 865FE37B404 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 03:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0JB6OB13865; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:06:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00de01c1a0d9$564c6880$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Nils Holland" , "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> <20020119102646.A1725@tisys.org> Subject: Re: New European Warranty Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:06:24 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's a risk with vacuums in that they may discharge static electricity into the case if there is close contact. I usually use a can of compressed air to blow dust out, while at the some time holding a vacuum in close proximity (but not in actual contact) in order to suck away the dust as it is blown clear. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nils Holland" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:26 Subject: Re: New European Warranty > On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:27:47PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen stood up and spoke: > > > > Another thing people should do is get a can of compressed air (or a tank > > and non-oily compresser) and blast the dust off every few months. > > Hmm, I noticed that doing that to the components in the computer only moves > the dust somewhere else - either to other places in the case, or right into > my face or onto my working area. A few years back, I saw a "computer vacuum > pack", containing a hose and some small nozzles that can be connected to an > ordinary vacuum cleaner. I've made some good experiences with this, as it > really sucks the dust out of the computer instead of spreading it around. > Additionally, the smallest nozzle in this set is well suited to suck all > the cookie-remains from between the keys on my keyboard ;-) > > Greetings > Nils > > > -- > Nils Holland > Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany > http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 19 7:24: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19AD37B404 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 1A2B6530C; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:23:53 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Nils Holland Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New European Warranty References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> <20020119102646.A1725@tisys.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Jan 2002 16:23:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020119102646.A1725@tisys.org> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > [...] A few years back, I saw a "computer vacuum > pack", containing a hose and some small nozzles that can be connected to an > ordinary vacuum cleaner. I've made some good experiences with this, as it > really sucks the dust out of the computer instead of spreading it around. > Additionally, the smallest nozzle in this set is well suited to suck all > the cookie-remains from between the keys on my keyboard ;-) It's also a wonderful way to fry your mainboard, unless the nozzles are equipped with grounding straps. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 19 7:47:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 845B737B402 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 011412283; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:46:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C49946E.E0B77B75@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:44:46 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Nils Holland , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New European Warranty References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> <20020119102646.A1725@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Nils Holland writes: > > [...] A few years back, I saw a "computer vacuum > > pack", containing a hose and some small nozzles that can be connected to an > > ordinary vacuum cleaner. I've made some good experiences with this, as it > > really sucks the dust out of the computer instead of spreading it around. > > Additionally, the smallest nozzle in this set is well suited to suck all > > the cookie-remains from between the keys on my keyboard ;-) > > It's also a wonderful way to fry your mainboard, unless the nozzles > are equipped with grounding straps. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message This may be true. I've seen pictures of very old high voltage generators that blew a mixture of compressed air and fine particles across a gap in order to generate 100's of kV. Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message