From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 20 10: 0:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324E237B404 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id g0KDdCl29641 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:39:12 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0KDc5t28908 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:38:05 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200201201338.g0KDc5t28908@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hardware random number generator? Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:38:05 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all If I was to make a hardware random number generator as a PCI card, who would be interested? How many would you be interested in? What price would you pay? (I'm thinking +- US$100 or less). M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 20 11:38:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA8837B404 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25332; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:38:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020120123454.00e61430@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:38:12 -0700 To: Nils Holland , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New European Warranty Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020119102646.A1725@tisys.org> References: <20020118224754.A804@tisys.org> <3C48A55D.FEA81774@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:26 AM 1/19/2002, Nils Holland wrote: >A few years back, I saw a "computer vacuum >pack", containing a hose and some small nozzles that can be connected to an >ordinary vacuum cleaner. I've made some good experiences with this, as it >really sucks the dust out of the computer instead of spreading it around. >Additionally, the smallest nozzle in this set is well suited to suck all >the cookie-remains from between the keys on my keyboard ;-) Be careful with this. The rush of air can generate static charges that fry sensitive components such as DRAM. If you use a vacuum, try to get one with a METAL nozzle that you can ground to the computer's case. Plug the system itself into a power strip that is turned off but still attached to a well-grounded outlet. This will keep the case grounded and minimize the risk of zappage. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 20 14:50: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571DF37B405 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from me (adsl-66-140-130-227.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.140.130.227]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g0KMnnl173400 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:49:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:49:50 -0500 From: hieuphan@worldnet.att.net Message-Id: <200201202249.g0KMnnl173400@pimout1-int.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==i3.9.0oisdboibsd((kncd" To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List 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chat@freebsd.org Subject: computer viruses and proprietary software Message-ID: <20020120231531.GB976@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francois-Rene Rideau, has posted a nice article of his to the cybernethics list, that I thought many of you might find interesting. The article which discusses the relationship (if any) of the existence of viruses and commercial software, can be found at: http://fare.tunes.org/articles/virus_design.html Since I'm now reading it (and the previous one, linked from that page), I'd be delighted to hear your comments. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 20 23:42:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754FA37B41B for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0107.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.107] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16SZ5j-0004AS-00; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:42:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4BC64B.78DD86F7@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:42:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer viruses and proprietary software References: <20020120231531.GB976@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Francois-Rene Rideau, has posted a nice article of his to the > cybernethics list, that I thought many of you might find interesting. > > The article which discusses the relationship (if any) of the existence > of viruses and commercial software, can be found at: > > http://fare.tunes.org/articles/virus_design.html > > Since I'm now reading it (and the previous one, linked from that > page), I'd be delighted to hear your comments. Writing a virus for UNIX is a relatively trivial exercise, and has been, ever since the file size of an executable no longer has to match the header segment information (this is how compiled LISP code in Common LISP and Franz LISP worked: by storing an image of the system with the code loaded and compiled as an executable with a data addition). Even without this change, it's fairly trivial to rewrite the header information to correct the oversight, so it is still overall possible, even if it can be made more complicated. I wrote my first UNIX virus in 1984 as a proof of concept for an advanced programming class. The intent of the prgram was to compress programs, and add itself as a prefix, capable of infecting other programs, as well as capable of uncompressing a temporary copy of the real program into a /tmp file, and exec'ing it with the correct av[0] ... etc.. Effectively, this caused an "infected" system to "grow more disk space", as time went on. Because it was recognized that the payload could be a bit more inmical, this virus was never released on the academic systems where it was first written and tested. If the explosive increase in virus strains is owed to any commercial software, that software has got to be the virus scanning software itself (McAfee, Norton, etc.). It's very hard to justify playing a chess game against someone, if your opponent refuses to participate in the game. I think this article is just another of those "everything would be so rosy, if only all software was Open Source" type articles that pop up every so often to try and sell the idea when someone balks at buying the GNU Manifesto, systems interoperability, or the other rationale used to sell Open Source to non-programming communities. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 0: 0: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4AB37B416 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a063.otenet.gr [212.205.215.63]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g0L7xri13540; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:59:54 +0200 (EET) Received: by hades.hell.gr (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2127831; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:59:51 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:59:50 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: computer viruses and proprietary software Message-ID: <20020121075950.GA13014@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020120231531.GB976@hades.hell.gr> <3C4BC64B.78DD86F7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C4BC64B.78DD86F7@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-01-20 23:42:03, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think this article is just another of those "everything > would be so rosy, if only all software was Open Source" type > articles that pop up every so often to try and sell the idea > when someone balks at buying the GNU Manifesto, systems > interoperability, or the other rationale used to sell Open > Source to non-programming communities. I do tend to agree, that this comes from a GNU fan, and is obviously pro-GNU and against all commercial software. But, what I initially disliked was not so much the open source comments, but comments like: Behaving as a parasite, just like a government uses taxation to live on the back of productive people. or the generality of comments like: Do not hesitate to do things that would otherwise be considered as risky when you're pretty sure you can't be watched; but conversely, don't take any risk that is made wholly unnecessary because the desired effect is already achieved. Definitely an interesting reead, though. -- Giorgos Keramidas . . . . . . . . . keramida@{ceid.upatras.gr,freebsd.org} FreeBSD Documentation Project . . . http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ FreeBSD: The power to serve . . . . http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 1:40:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE9737B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g0L9eX352137; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:40:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <017701c1a25f$ac239350$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , References: <20020120231531.GB976@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: computer viruses and proprietary software Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:40:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > Since I'm now reading it (and the previous one, linked > from that page), I'd be delighted to hear your comments. Anyone who thinks that proprietary systems are somehow more vulnerable or prone to viruses is misleading himself dangerously. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 9:27:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815A837B416 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0LHRUd02688 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:27:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:29:54 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? Message-ID: <20020121122703.G39824-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just looked at a new freebsd system vendor. Happy to see them since I like to support BSD supporters, but I wonder if anyone knows who this people are. On their "about us" it says litteraly NOTHING about themselves. Yes.. yes I know I could ask them, but I figure I like to get the "outside" view of things. If all else fails I will write to them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 10:15:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2876537B402 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07001 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:15:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:15:23 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200201211815.LAA07001@lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: This is cool! Google has a BSD search page.... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Look carefully at the Google logo at http://www.google.com/bsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 10:32:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clink.schulte.org (clink.schulte.org [209.134.156.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEA637B400 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from schulte-laptop.nospam.schulte.org (nb-65.netbriefings.com [209.134.134.65]) by clink.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800BA24410; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:32:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121123022.03557b78@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:31:44 -0600 To: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: This is cool! Google has a BSD search page.... In-Reply-To: <200201211815.LAA07001@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:15 AM 1/21/2002 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >Look carefully at the Google logo at > >http://www.google.com/bsd http://www.google.com/bsd --> OK http://www.google.com/linux --> OK http://www.google.com/windows --> 404 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 11:23:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7394737B400 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F45BD1F; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13296; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:23:07 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0LJQS901273; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:26:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020121122703.G39824-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 21 Jan 2002 11:26:27 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020121122703.G39824-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <43pu43jyjg.u43@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes writes: > Just looked at a new freebsd system vendor. Happy to see them since I like > to support BSD supporters, but I wonder if anyone knows who this people > are. On their "about us" it says litteraly NOTHING about themselves. I think it says LOTS about them. People in commerce who don't provide a USPS mailing address are waving a big red flag, IMO. They aggravate the situation by asking for your USPS address on their "contact" page. > Yes.. yes I know I could ask them, but I figure I like to get the > "outside" view of things. If all else fails I will write to them. Or call their toll-free number. Operators are standing by, no doubt. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 12:18: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ADE37B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:17:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0LKHwK23614 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:17:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09670 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:17:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C4C774B.60E8A7F0@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:17:15 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a CDROM based Firewall Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have also successfully done this (for VPN/Firewall) implementations) with FreeBSD and RedHat Linux. I used the floppy to store config and log data. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson anderson@centtech.com Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 12:20: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7DE37B417 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0LKJuK23637 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:19:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09765 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:19:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C4C77C1.26681AF3@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:19:13 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Need mail hosting info] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not sure if it interests anyone, but I run several sites (colocated, virtual hosting, email, etc) from my home. I don't charge much, but I also don't promise 100% uptime or 24 hour tech support :D. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson anderson@centtech.com Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 12:20:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from d13225.upc-d.chello.nl (d13225.upc-d.chello.nl [213.46.13.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B2B37B419 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from adv.devet.org (adv.devet.org [192.168.1.2]) by d13225.upc-d.chello.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A645268CE for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:20:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by adv.devet.org (Postfix, from userid 100) id 8918B4F9F; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:20:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:20:19 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This is cool! Google has a BSD search page.... Message-ID: <20020121202019.GA12505@adv.devet.org> References: <200201211815.LAA07001@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121123022.03557b78@pop3s.schulte.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.chat Organization: Eindhoven, the Netherlands From: devet@devet.org (Arjan de Vet) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <5.1.0.14.0.20020121123022.03557b78@pop3s.schulte.org> you write: >http://www.google.com/bsd --> OK >http://www.google.com/linux --> OK >http://www.google.com/windows --> 404 http://www.google.com/mac --> OK Arjan -- Arjan de Vet, Eindhoven, The Netherlands URL : http://www.iae.nl/users/devet/ Work: http://www.madison-gurkha.com/ (Security, Open Source, Education) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 12:56:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFCF37B402 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8BB18533B; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:56:44 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: devet@devet.org (Arjan de Vet) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This is cool! Google has a BSD search page.... References: <200201211815.LAA07001@lariat.org> <20020121202019.GA12505@adv.devet.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Jan 2002 21:56:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020121202019.GA12505@adv.devet.org> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org devet@devet.org (Arjan de Vet) writes: > In article <5.1.0.14.0.20020121123022.03557b78@pop3s.schulte.org> you write: > > http://www.google.com/bsd --> OK > > http://www.google.com/linux --> OK > > http://www.google.com/windows --> 404 > http://www.google.com/mac --> OK Gotta love that thing they do with their logo :) They have a RedHat search page too, but it doesn't have a funky logo. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13: 0:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576DF37B423 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:00:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0LL07K24680 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:00:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11035 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:00:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C4C812A.1632799E@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:59:22 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: New mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do I get a new freebsd mailing list started? Anyone know? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson anderson@centtech.com Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13: 4:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enigma.trueimpact.net (enigma.trueimpact.net [209.82.45.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0FC37B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.jaded.net (unknown [209.82.45.200]) by enigma.trueimpact.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406B766B1A; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0LL5HE10480; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:05:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:05:17 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: Mark Murray Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware random number generator? Message-ID: <20020121160517.D9493@spirit.jaded.net> References: <200201201338.g0KDc5t28908@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200201201338.g0KDc5t28908@grimreaper.grondar.org>; from mark@grondar.za on Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 01:38:05PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | If I was to make a hardware random number generator as a PCI card, | who would be interested? How many would you be interested in? | What price would you pay? (I'm thinking +- US$100 or less). | with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Hi Mark, I imagine people who want hardware random number support would just buy a motherboard with the intel (82801?) chip? [ Speaking of which, I sent you a driver for this chip a while ago, do you still have it hanging around? I can't seem to find it. :/ ] Cheers, -Dan -- Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13: 7:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8603C37B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id NAA23701 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:07:21 -0800 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda23699; Mon Jan 21 13:07:12 2002 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.11.6/8.9.1) id g0LL6x490928 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(10.1.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpde90833; Mon Jan 21 13:06:54 2002 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.11.6/8.9.1) id g0LL6nV08124 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:06:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200201212106.g0LL6nV08124@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdsJ8121; Mon Jan 21 13:06:18 2002 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-Sender: schubert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:06:18 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.washtech.com/news/media/14759-1.html Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Email: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, CITS Ministry of Management Services Province of BC FreeBSD UNIX: cy@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13:10:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enigma.trueimpact.net (enigma.trueimpact.net [209.82.45.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D307437B400 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.jaded.net (unknown [209.82.45.200]) by enigma.trueimpact.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008F466B1A; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0LLB1010567; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:11:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:11:01 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New mailing list Message-ID: <20020121161101.E9493@spirit.jaded.net> References: <3C4C812A.1632799E@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C4C812A.1632799E@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 02:59:22PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | How do I get a new freebsd mailing list started? Anyone know? You convince people it's a good idea to start one. :-) -dan -- Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13:11:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE8337B417 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0452.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.197] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Slif-0000ao-00; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:11:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4C83EA.D6F8E6D0@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:11:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This is cool! Google has a BSD search page.... References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020121123022.03557b78@pop3s.schulte.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christopher Schulte wrote: > > At 11:15 AM 1/21/2002 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >Look carefully at the Google logo at > > > >http://www.google.com/bsd > > http://www.google.com/bsd --> OK > http://www.google.com/linux --> OK > http://www.google.com/windows --> 404 http://www.google.com/redhat <- uh, it's just "Google"... http://www.google.com/mac -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13:13: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F69337B400; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0LLCqK25078; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:12:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11457; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:12:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C4C8429.1FAEF381@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:12:09 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Moschuk Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New mailing list References: <3C4C812A.1632799E@centtech.com> <20020121161101.E9493@spirit.jaded.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Which people? :D I'd love to start a freebsd-perf list (for performance tweaking and related things, like testing, etc). Eric Dan Moschuk wrote: > > | How do I get a new freebsd mailing list started? Anyone know? > > You convince people it's a good idea to start one. :-) > > -dan > -- > Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. > Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson anderson@centtech.com Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13:18:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC50137B405 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0452.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.197] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16SlpP-0002Wt-00; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:18:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4C858B.758C9D7A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:18:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020121122703.G39824-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <43pu43jyjg.u43@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are you guys blind, or what? "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Francisco Reyes writes: > > Just looked at a new freebsd system vendor. Happy to see them since I like > > to support BSD supporters, but I wonder if anyone knows who this people > > are. On their "about us" it says litteraly NOTHING about themselves. > > I think it says LOTS about them. People in commerce who don't provide a > USPS mailing address are waving a big red flag, IMO. They aggravate the > situation by asking for your USPS address on their "contact" page. FreeBSD Systems, Inc. 19 Mercer Street Suite 315 Toronto CA 877.963.1900 FreeBSD Systems, Inc. 1 FreeBSD Way Plains, Texas 79355 USA 877.963.1900 > > Yes.. yes I know I could ask them, but I figure I like to get the > > "outside" view of things. If all else fails I will write to them. > > Or call their toll-free number. Operators are standing by, no doubt. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 13:57:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A0B37B402 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-185.wobline.de [212.68.69.196]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0LLuEa24891; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:56:14 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0LLu7X96968; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:56:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0LLu6n06656; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:56:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:56:06 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020121225606.A6613@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200201212106.g0LL6nV08124@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200201212106.g0LL6nV08124@cwsys.cwsent.com>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:06:18PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 10:54PM up 12:46, 1 user, load averages: 0.05, 0.03, 0.04 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:06:18PM -0800, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group stood up and spoke: > http://www.washtech.com/news/media/14759-1.html If AOL wants to get away from Microsoft, they should probably consider moving away from Microsoft's Internet Explorer to their own Netscape / Mozilla as a first step... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 14:47:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23B1E37B41F for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 676 invoked by uid 100); 21 Jan 2002 22:47:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15436.39537.864413.15893@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:47:13 -0600 To: Nils Holland Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat In-Reply-To: <20020121225606.A6613@tisys.org> References: <200201212106.g0LL6nV08124@cwsys.cwsent.com> <20020121225606.A6613@tisys.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland types: > On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:06:18PM -0800, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group stood up and spoke: > > http://www.washtech.com/news/media/14759-1.html > If AOL wants to get away from Microsoft, they should probably consider > moving away from Microsoft's Internet Explorer to their own Netscape / > Mozilla as a first step... Read the findings of the anti-trust lawsuit. AOL had to agree to make sure a certain percentage of their customers got IE in order to get on the Windows desktop. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 18: 5:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B9537B41B for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0M25Ec51256 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:05:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:05:14 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorting algorithms Message-ID: <20020121180234.K32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.scs.carleton.ca/~morin/misc/sortalg/ This amuzes me. i'm getting partial to BozoSort. -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 18:15:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0981C37B402 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.254.218.32]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020122021544.EDJE26243.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:15:44 +0000 Message-ID: <3C4CCB4E.72EE1896@attbi.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:15:43 -0700 From: Joe Warner Organization: nunyabiz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This is cool! Google has a BSD search page.... References: <200201211815.LAA07001@lariat.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F6BD22F379F4C9EE0A066AC7" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------F6BD22F379F4C9EE0A066AC7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.google.com/options/index.html Brett Glass wrote: > Look carefully at the Google logo at > > http://www.google.com/bsd > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Joe Warner Daemon News Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com --------------F6BD22F379F4C9EE0A066AC7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
http://www.google.com/options/index.html
 

Brett Glass wrote:

Look carefully at the Google logo at

http://www.google.com/bsd

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

Joe Warner
Daemon News
Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org
Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/
BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com
  --------------F6BD22F379F4C9EE0A066AC7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 18:38:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788AE37B405 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0M2cad24389; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:38:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:41:03 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? In-Reply-To: <3C4C858B.758C9D7A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020121214019.O40885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 Jan 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Are you guys blind, or what? > FreeBSD Systems, Inc. > 19 Mercer Street > Suite 315 > Toronto > CA > 877.963.1900 Where did you get this? I just went to their site and looked at every link and didn't see the address. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 19: 4: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B2E37B416 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0309.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.54] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16SrDw-000724-00; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:03:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4CD68D.8B2C582B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:03:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020121214019.O40885-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > Where did you get this? > I just went to their site and looked at every link and didn't see the > address. man whois 8-) 8-) 8-) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 19: 5:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6AB37B416; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0309.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.54] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16SrFS-0001Iv-00; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:05:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4CD6EB.E4B65C9@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:05:15 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Moschuk Cc: Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware random number generator? References: <200201201338.g0KDc5t28908@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020121160517.D9493@spirit.jaded.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Moschuk wrote: > I imagine people who want hardware random number support would just buy > a motherboard with the intel (82801?) chip? > > [ Speaking of which, I sent you a driver for this chip a while ago, do > you still have it hanging around? I can't seem to find it. :/ ] What motherboards have this chip? This would be an incredibly useful thing, if it could murder /dev/slow^H^H^H^Hrandom... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 20:38:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11908.mail.yahoo.com (web11908.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D313F37B402 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:38:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.249.95.225] by web11908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:38:07 PST Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:38:07 -0800 (PST) From: NGH Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20020121225606.A6613@tisys.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Nils Holland wrote: > If AOL wants to get away from Microsoft, they should probably > consider moving away from Microsoft's Internet Explorer to their > own Netscape / Mozilla as a first step... I think AOL shouldn't buy Red Hat. Instead, the two companies should make a strategic alliance. Red Hat might include a native Linux version of AOL's client software. This would make "Linux" a real option for gajillions of AOL users out there, and would give Red Hat a big marketing advantage. (Linux. So easy to use, no wonder it's number one. Convince enough people, and it'll become true.) Similarly, Red Hat should make strategic alliances with every company that produces alternatives to Microsoft's products. RealPlayer, for instance. Or the Quicken/TurboTax people... you get the picture. Lots of native "brand name" software for Linux would give the consumer an option, and even give *BSD more of a desktop presence. Not that I care what Red Hat does. Their distro is a big monstrocity in my opinion, but then, most of them are. Linux is probably a good kernel, seeing how there are enough mods out there to do just about anything with it, but I'd much rather see a *BSD-style distro built around Linux. Oh well. I'm just yakking away. -NGH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 20:41:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11905.mail.yahoo.com (web11905.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CCA537B402 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:41:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020122044134.75050.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.249.95.225] by web11905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:41:34 PST Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:41:34 -0800 (PST) From: NGH Subject: Re: Hardware random number generator? To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200201201338.g0KDc5t28908@grimreaper.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Mark Murray wrote: > If I was to make a hardware random number generator as a PCI card, > who would be interested? How many would you be interested in? > What price would you pay? (I'm thinking +- US$100 or less). A hardware random number generator would be cool, but how do you think of implementing one? Picking up noise, or radio broadcasts, perhaps? Just wondering, NGH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 21 23:54:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tesla.foo.is (tesla.reverse-bias.org [217.151.166.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB0D37B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from germanium (germanium.reverse-bias.org [192.168.1.1]) by tesla.foo.is (Postfix) with SMTP id CEE022758 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:54:12 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Baldur Gislason To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:57:35 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02012207573506.08293@germanium> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org *SNIP* > Not that I care what Red Hat does. Their distro is a big monstrocity > in my opinion, but then, most of them are. Linux is probably a good > kernel, seeing how there are enough mods out there to do just about > anything with it, but I'd much rather see a *BSD-style distro built > around Linux. There is such a distribution, it's called Slackware (www.slackware.com). It uses BSD fashioned binary packages, BSD style init scripts and the installer installer is quite similiar to the FreeBSD one, also they've proven to make a much higher quality distribution than most other Linux distributions (They only include software that has proven itself, and they seem to test things before releasing) Just my $0.02 Baldur To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 1:54:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2948037B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id g0M9scj75709; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:54:38 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0M9sat57164; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:54:36 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200201220954.g0M9sat57164@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: NGH Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hardware random number generator? References: <20020122044134.75050.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020122044134.75050.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> ; from NGH "Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:41:34 PST." Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:54:36 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > --- Mark Murray wrote: > > If I was to make a hardware random number generator as a PCI card, > > who would be interested? How many would you be interested in? > > What price would you pay? (I'm thinking +- US$100 or less). > > A hardware random number generator would be cool, but how do you think > of implementing one? Picking up noise, or radio broadcasts, perhaps? Multiple methods. A zener diode can be made very noisy, a pair of transitors can be made to oscillate wierdly etc. Then the entropy needs to be processed in hardware to distill out random bits. That is also done in multiple ways, with different parts of the circuit independantly supplying parts of the 32-bit result. Provision for external noise (so the user can connect his own noise source) would also be there. M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 2: 5: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0240537B400 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8FD54533B; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:05:00 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Baldur Gislason Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat References: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> <02012207573506.08293@germanium> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jan 2002 11:04:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <02012207573506.08293@germanium> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Baldur Gislason writes: > to make a much higher quality distribution than most other Linux > distributions (They only include software that has proven itself, and they > seem to test things before releasing) They *test* their releases? Shocking. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 2:45:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0AB37B405 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g0MAj4e32038 ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:45:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA68921 ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:45:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:45:00 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Baldur Gislason Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020122114500.D64626@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <02012207573506.08293@germanium> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Baldur Gislason wrote: > > Not that I care what Red Hat does. Their distro is a big monstrocity > > in my opinion, but then, most of them are. Linux is probably a good > > kernel, seeing how there are enough mods out there to do just about > > anything with it, but I'd much rather see a *BSD-style distro built > > around Linux. > > There is such a distribution, it's called Slackware > (www.slackware.com). > It uses BSD fashioned binary packages, http://www.gentoo.org looks interesting. They even have a version of the ports system, which Slackware lacks. In fact right now they don't have binary packages -- everything has to be built from source, apart I think from some very minimal initial binary install. I have no idea how reliable it is, but if I ever want/need to use linux again, I'll probably give this a shot... On that subject, why does everyone compare slackware to the BSDs? The only common thing I can see is Walnut Creek which is in the past, and the bsd-style init which I don't really care about when the system is working. Apart from license and reliability, the the two things that distinguish BSD (for me, anyway) are "make world" and the ports system, neither of which Slackware had, last time I checked. And I don't know how good their packaging system is at dependency checking, etc. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 6:12:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056CB37B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 06:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g0MEC3d26443; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:14:34 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? In-Reply-To: <3C4CD68D.8B2C582B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 Jan 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Where did you get this? > > I just went to their site and looked at every link and didn't see the > > address. > > man whois > > 8-) 8-) 8-) Ok. so we are not blind, but not as smart as you. :-) I alson don't always trust whois since many times it is either not the same people who actually run the site or is not up to date. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 10:44:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120A237B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5067BCAA; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA31584; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:44:21 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0MIla901732; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:47:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Jan 2002 10:47:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes writes: > Ok. so we are not blind, but not as smart as you. :-) Speak for yourself, please. I knew I could use whois on the domain name, but didn't care about the info (even if correct), only about the omission of it from the web site. (Nonetheless, I'll admit to not being as smart as Terry.) > I alson don't always trust whois since many times it is either not the > same people who actually run the site or is not up to date. It's also risky to trust mailing info on a web site. If the risk is bothersome, there are ways to check it out, but I suppose most people have to accept such risks as a cost of doing business efficiently (and use of credit cards reduce the risk). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 14:30:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8200437B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0657.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.147] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16T9Qd-0007Rs-00; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:30:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4DE7E9.561BE221@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:30:01 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat References: <20020122114500.D64626@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > On that subject, why does everyone compare slackware to the BSDs? Rigor. The BSDs have more academic rigor (though not as much as an academic project, by half). Slackware also has academic rigor, where correctness is the most important thing. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 14:37:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97C337B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0657.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.147] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16T9Xq-0002gb-00; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:37:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4DE9AB.B68A4F0F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:37:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > I alson don't always trust whois since many times it is either not the > same people who actually run the site or is not up to date. You can always trust the billing contact, or the domain goes away. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 14:53:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0855C37B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0657.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.147] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16T9nA-00018P-00; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:53:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4DED60.6097571F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:53:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: [ ... ] > > I alson don't always trust whois since many times it is either not the > > same people who actually run the site or is not up to date. > > It's also risky to trust mailing info on a web site. If the risk is > bothersome, there are ways to check it out, but I suppose most people > have to accept such risks as a cost of doing business efficiently (and > use of credit cards reduce the risk). Or info about a web site that you find out from a mailing list? 8-) Practically, trust has to begin somewhere. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 15:45:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0097537B400 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0657.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.147] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TAbw-0007XA-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:45:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4DF9AC.8BEEE7F6@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:45:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: More Humor on 4M paging issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.gentoo.org/ (about halfway down the page). Obviously, the Windows issue is that you would need to patch the VMM32.VXD code, so a registry hack is the easiest way to (not) deal with the problem. Apparently, they have not bothered to characterize the problem, or they would have worked around it in software. It's funny that they don't do that; I have to laugh. It's even funnier that FreeBSD accidently worked around the problem with its use of 4M pages in the kernel, by virtue of an order of operation choice that could have gone the other way. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 22 23:55:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A411537B402 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-144-82.dial.proxad.net [62.147.144.82]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9749729E for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:55:24 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 289 invoked by uid 1001); 23 Jan 2002 07:54:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:54:11 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020123085411.A240@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020122114500.D64626@lpt.ens.fr> <3C4DE7E9.561BE221@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C4DE7E9.561BE221@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Jan 22, 2002 at 02:30:01PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Jan 22, 2002 at 14:30:01: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > On that subject, why does everyone compare slackware to the BSDs? > > Rigor. > The BSDs have more academic rigor (though not as much as an > academic project, by half). Slackware also has academic > rigor, where correctness is the most important thing. Maybe definitions differ -- but it seems among linux users, anyway, the distribution which is generally highly regarded for rigour is Debian. Also, a package management system which does not do dependency tracking and upgrades of dependencies (which, as far as I can make out, Slackware's does not) is not "rigorous" or "correct" -- you can seriously hose your system. The BSD system is closer to correctness but still has problems; the portupgrade scripts make things much better but can't handle all situations either. Debian's system really seems to be the best of the lot in this respect. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 1: 1:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E79D37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0N8xY816033; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:59:34 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C4DE9AB.B68A4F0F@mindspring.com> References: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <3C4DE9AB.B68A4F0F@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:39:29 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Francisco Reyes From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:37 PM -0800 2002/01/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > You can always trust the billing contact, or the domain goes > away. Not quite true. You can trust that the billing contact was probably plausible at the time the bill was originally paid, but that address may very well have gone away the very next day -- the Registrar won't care until it's time for the domain to be renewed, and no action will be taken until that time. If I were going to run a scam site, this is certainly how I'd do it. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 2: 3:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A8837B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0042.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.42] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TKFq-0004Bs-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:03:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4E8A7A.4BA3DA7A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:03:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Francisco Reyes , "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Who is www.freebsdsystems.com? References: <20020122091319.H42284-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <3C4DE9AB.B68A4F0F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:37 PM -0800 2002/01/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > > You can always trust the billing contact, or the domain goes > > away. > > Not quite true. You can trust that the billing contact was > probably plausible at the time the bill was originally paid, but that > address may very well have gone away the very next day -- the > Registrar won't care until it's time for the domain to be renewed, > and no action will be taken until that time. > > If I were going to run a scam site, this is certainly how I'd do it. I've had SPAM'ers HotMail and other email accounts disabled for violation of TOS. Once that's done, I contact the registrar and note that their billing contact information is invalid, which is usually enough to get the domain suspended. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 2:20:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D90E37B402 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0042.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.42] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TKWJ-0004PP-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:20:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4E8E77.E3C916C6@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:20:39 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat References: <20020122114500.D64626@lpt.ens.fr> <3C4DE7E9.561BE221@mindspring.com> <20020123085411.A240@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > On that subject, why does everyone compare slackware to the BSDs? > > > > Rigor. > > The BSDs have more academic rigor (though not as much as an > > academic project, by half). Slackware also has academic > > rigor, where correctness is the most important thing. > > Maybe definitions differ -- but it seems among linux users, anyway, the > distribution which is generally highly regarded for rigour is Debian. Debian apparently has a NetBSD based distribution as well, now. I think if we are including Linux at all, we are using a looser definition of rigor than we would otherwise prefer, since the code isn't even under source control. Just because Slackware exhibits rigor in that they don't do things like ship unreleased versions of GCC with conflicting version numbers vs. official releases, doesn't mean that Debian doesn't also. You asked why people "compare Slackware to the BSDs", not why people "compare Slackware to the BSDs instead of other Linux distributions, including Debian". If you want to ask a more specific question, don't beat around the bush, implying its domain, just ask the thing! 8-) > Also, a package management system which does not do dependency > tracking and upgrades of dependencies (which, as far as I can make > out, Slackware's does not) is not "rigorous" or "correct" -- you can > seriously hose your system. The BSD system is closer to correctness > but still has problems; the portupgrade scripts make things much > better but can't handle all situations either. Debian's system really > seems to be the best of the lot in this respect. Different topic. I don't like the Debian system, for a number of reasons. The FreeBSD system has its warts, as well, but at least I am well aware of those warts, and can work around them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 2:47: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alix.lpt.ens.fr (alix.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5F8837B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 557 invoked by uid 1001); 23 Jan 2002 10:46:58 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:46:58 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020122114500.D64626@lpt.ens.fr> <3C4DE7E9.561BE221@mindspring.com> <20020123085411.A240@lpt.ens.fr> <3C4E8E77.E3C916C6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C4E8E77.E3C916C6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 02:20:39AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Jan 23, 2002 at 02:20:39: > You asked why people "compare Slackware to the BSDs", not why > people "compare Slackware to the BSDs instead of other Linux > distributions, including Debian". My point was, people keep asking the question "Is there a BSD-like linux distribution?" and the answer always is "Try Slackware". Which doesn't make much sense to me. The best argument seems to be "The BSDs have a reputation of being minimalistic and user-unfriendly; Slackware is minimalistic and user-unfriendly; therefore Slackware is like the BSDs." Of course, I haven't tried slackware in a very long time; it may have changed a lot in the user-friendliness department. But it still does not seem to include sensible package management, much less a source-based ports system, and (on a desktop system, anyway) these look like fatal drawbacks to me. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 9:12:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0647C37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0NHCml58804; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:12:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:12:48 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Baldur Gislason , Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat In-Reply-To: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > My point was, people keep asking the question "Is there a BSD-like > linux distribution?" and the answer always is "Try Slackware". Which > doesn't make much sense to me. The best argument seems to be "The > BSDs have a reputation of being minimalistic and user-unfriendly; > Slackware is minimalistic and user-unfriendly; therefore Slackware is > like the BSDs." of course, the only BSD i've found to be particulary user-unfriendly is netbsd. and that, it seems, is a problem with disk partitioning during the install. something that probably could be fixed fairly easily given motivation by the NetBSD team. -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 12:38:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D2E37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0NKePa61076; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:40:25 -0800 From: David Schultz To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost>; from jan@caustic.org on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 09:12:48AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake f.johan.beisser : > of course, the only BSD i've found to be particulary user-unfriendly is > netbsd. and that, it seems, is a problem with disk partitioning during the > install. something that probably could be fixed fairly easily given > motivation by the NetBSD team. I think FreeBSD's installer could be better, too, but it works in a fairly straightforward manner as long as you don't have strange hardware. Debian's installer was fairly helpful, up until a point. I refer specifically to the point where it printed an arithmetic overflow error message and proceeded to overwrite my hard disk with junk, apparently beginning with the MBR. As for the correctness of the operating system itself, I can't comment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 12:42:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6644137B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0NKg5C59772; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:42:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:42:04 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: David Schultz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat In-Reply-To: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> Message-ID: <20020123123926.C32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake f.johan.beisser : > > of course, the only BSD i've found to be particulary user-unfriendly is > > netbsd. and that, it seems, is a problem with disk partitioning during the > > install. something that probably could be fixed fairly easily given > > motivation by the NetBSD team. > > I think FreeBSD's installer could be better, too, but it works in a > fairly straightforward manner as long as you don't have strange > hardware. i've been told by quite a few FreeBSD newbies (that come over from various Linux distros) that the installer was "easy to deal with" and "fairly straight forward and simple". i'm not sure what could be changed, to make it even easier to handle, and still remain powerful and simple. > Debian's installer was fairly helpful, up until a point. I refer > specifically to the point where it printed an arithmetic overflow > error message and proceeded to overwrite my hard disk with junk, > apparently beginning with the MBR. As for the correctness of > the operating system itself, I can't comment. neither can i, luckly, i have a debian committer here at work, maybe i can pester him for one. i don't have much experience with linux, since i've not used it in about 6 years or so. maybe the installer has improved (i've heard good things about debian, even though it wouldn't boot on my sparc). -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 16:26: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF21A37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0O0PRg00880; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:25:27 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> References: <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:21:32 +0100 To: "f.johan.beisser" , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Cc: Terry Lambert , Baldur Gislason , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:12 AM -0800 2002/01/23, f.johan.beisser wrote: > of course, the only BSD i've found to be particulary user-unfriendly is > netbsd. and that, it seems, is a problem with disk partitioning during the > install. something that probably could be fixed fairly easily given > motivation by the NetBSD team. I recently installed NetBSD 1.5.2 on a SPARC clone that I have here at the house, and this process was greatly improved. It's still not quite up to the level of quality in FreeBSD, but it's not nearly so bad as it used to be. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 16:57:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D8E37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0159.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.159] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TYCg-0002Zk-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:57:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:57:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > I think FreeBSD's installer could be better, too, but it works in a > fairly straightforward manner as long as you don't have strange > hardware. FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. The display in 512B sectors is not also in KB/MB/GB, even though there is plenty of room for the display. The "help" doesn't indicate "G" is an acceptable suffix (like it does "M"). When doing "partitioning", you can't use the last partition as a "hog" partition, so that you can resize the "/" (for example, since it's always too small for a developer). The only way you can resize is a delete/create pair. If you make a mistake, it is impossible to recover without a reboot, since the disklabel stuff is not reread following a failed "commit" (e.g. when you type in "/usr/local" instead of "/usr" because you had to recreate everything by hand to resize things, it wants to use the exisiting root FS, instead of permitting you to newfs it again, unless you delete the "slice", reboot, and redo the "slice", "partitioning", and "commit"). It's pretty damn unforgiving, in fact. The problem with fixing this is: 1) It requires a lot of scratch equipment 2) The release build process dependencies are not sufficiently correct to permit quick incremental changes to sysinstall 3) It requires a desire for a lot of coasters 4) There's no money in doing this thankless job unless you are a CDROM distributor 5) You can't even do it for the money, and still be allowed to use the FreeBSD trademark by calling it FreeBSD, unless you donate the code back, it happens to get accepted instead of rejected, and you thus remove your source of "value add" from which you expect to recoup the R&D costs with a proprietary FreeBSD CDROM distribution that has a technical barrier to entry for duplication (it might as well be under the GPL). Don't think that I don't have some incredibly choice words on Partition Magic, either. It has some incredibly stupid defaults that made me reinstall my Windows XP twice to get FreeBSD and Windows XP to coexist on the same disk. Grrr. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 17: 7:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2D737B402 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11119; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:06:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020123180421.01d7b220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:06:37 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , David Schultz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:57 PM 1/23/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >5) You can't even do it for the money, and still be > allowed to use the FreeBSD trademark by calling > it FreeBSD, unless you donate the code back, it > happens to get accepted instead of rejected, and > you thus remove your source of "value add" from > which you expect to recoup the R&D costs with a > proprietary FreeBSD CDROM distribution that has > a technical barrier to entry for duplication (it > might as well be under the GPL). Terry: Who is attempting to enforce such absurdly tight restrictions on the use of the FreeBSD trademark? Certainly, there should be an ability to offer one's own installer, as is true with NetBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 17:11:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C3137B41A for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26034; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:13:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201240113.UAA26034@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: Terry Lambert , David Schultz , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:10:24 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 23 January 2002 07:57 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > David Schultz wrote: > > I think FreeBSD's installer could be better, too, but it works in a > > fairly straightforward manner as long as you don't have strange > > hardware. > > FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. > > The display in 512B sectors is not also in KB/MB/GB, even > though there is plenty of room for the display. The "help" > doesn't indicate "G" is an acceptable suffix (like it does > "M"). umm...i believe it is the 'z' key that changes it from sectors to kb to mb to gb. if it's not 'z' I KNOW it's listed in the little table of contents towards the bottom of the screen nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 17:56:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AA037B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0159.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.159] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TZ7R-0002ae-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:56:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4F69AD.38A01F0D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:55:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020123180421.01d7b220@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Who is attempting to enforce such absurdly tight restrictions > on the use of the FreeBSD trademark? Certainly, there should be > an ability to offer one's own installer, as is true with NetBSD. Brett, don't be a troll. You know very well. It's not like this is a new audience for the gripe. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 17:57:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAF637B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0O1iDQ95026; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:44:13 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:44:13 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Message-ID: <20020124014413.F53456@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EDJsL2R9iCFAt7IV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 04:57:18PM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --EDJsL2R9iCFAt7IV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 04:57:18PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > 5) You can't even do it for the money, and still be > allowed to use the FreeBSD trademark by calling > it FreeBSD, unless you donate the code back, it > happens to get accepted instead of rejected, and > you thus remove your source of "value add" from > which you expect to recoup the R&D costs with a > proprietary FreeBSD CDROM distribution that has > a technical barrier to entry for duplication (it > might as well be under the GPL). Not true. I've had this argument with you before. You, or anyone else, are free to create their own installer and/or related technologies. You can create your own FreeBSD distro if you want,= =20 and go and market it.=20 But you must also include, somewhere, the project's installation routine, and provide a mechanism that lets the end user choose what gets run. For example, you might ship on CDROM, and include the project's floppy disk images, and instructions on how to use them to create a "FreeBSD Project" install. Or you could describe how the user can interrupt the boot process and change the init path variable to point to sysinstall instead of your own installer. But you can make your installer the default if you want. Just make sure they can get to the project's installer as well. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --EDJsL2R9iCFAt7IV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjxPZusACgkQk6gHZCw343VEsQCfZVmXgIwK2oneIH17/SGAAsLQ KHMAn3+QJl4yix7PV5IgpGrXnurS89L7 =BTkQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EDJsL2R9iCFAt7IV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 18: 3:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C176537B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0159.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.159] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TZET-0004aq-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:03:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4F6B61.142D9A98@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:03:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Mace Cc: David Schultz , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <200201240113.UAA26034@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nathan Mace wrote: > > FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. > > > > The display in 512B sectors is not also in KB/MB/GB, even > > though there is plenty of room for the display. The "help" > > doesn't indicate "G" is an acceptable suffix (like it does > > "M"). > > umm...i believe it is the 'z' key that changes it from sectors to kb to mb to > gb. if it's not 'z' I KNOW it's listed in the little table of contents > towards the bottom of the screen I think you meant to reply to the complaint about the display in 512B sectors, instead of 512B sectors and larger units as well. The excerpted text to which you are replying is about the "Use K for Kilobytes or M for Megabytes" in the "size" dialog under the "C" ("create") option in the partitioning screen not including "or G for Gigabytes". Another complaint that could be registered about that dialog is that the text doesn't arrive "selected", so that typing replaces all of it, so you don't have to delete the current value ("all remaining space"). While it's possible to change the units used, as I originally noted, there is plenty of screen real estate available to be used for a display in other units. Switching completely over to those other units is actually not incredibly useful, if you have a large mix of sizes, since the typical installation has this (50M for "/", and 10's of Gigs for "/usr", by default). Does that make more sense now, as a human factors complaint? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 18: 8:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C375137B400; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0159.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.159] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TZJn-0004EB-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:08:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4F6CAB.76D9CAE2@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:08:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020124014413.F53456@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > You, or anyone else, are free to create their own installer and/or > related technologies. You can create your own FreeBSD distro if you want, > and go and market it. > > But you must also include, somewhere, the project's installation > routine, and provide a mechanism that lets the end user choose what gets > run. How about we call this mechanism "buying CDROM A instead of CDROM B"? > For example, you might ship on CDROM, and include the project's floppy > disk images, and instructions on how to use them to create a "FreeBSD > Project" install. This is actually the first time this particular option has been raised as "permissable". > Or you could describe how the user can interrupt the > boot process and change the init path variable to point to sysinstall > instead of your own installer. Not workable, due to CDROM boot image size restrictions. > But you can make your installer the default if you want. Just make sure > they can get to the project's installer as well. There's still the problem that it isn't *you* who are allowed to make these rules, it's the trademark holder, or their agent; historically, their agent has denied permission for such things. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 20:54:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD02237B402 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA01154 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:57:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200201240457.XAA01154@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: any chance of this having any "good" features? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:54:26 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org it seems that caldera has released the source code for some of the very old unices that they got when they bought SCO Unix. http://slashdot.org/articles/02/01/24/0146248.shtml since it's under a BSD license, whats the chance's that this code has anything in it that freebsd doesn't already have? nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 22:17:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thuvia.demon.co.uk (thuvia.demon.co.uk [193.237.34.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB5637B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (dotar-sojat.thuvia.org [10.0.0.4]) by phaidor.thuvia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0O6HaD49435; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:17:37 GMT (envelope-from mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0O6MM731425; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:22:22 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:22:22 GMT From: Mark Valentine Message-Id: <200201240622.g0O6MM731425@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org> In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Jan 24, 2:20am X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com (Terry Lambert), Nathan Mace Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Cc: David Schultz , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: tlambert2@mindspring.com (Terry Lambert) > Date: Thu 24 Jan, 2002 > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") > Another complaint that could be registered about that dialog > is that the text doesn't arrive "selected", so that typing > replaces all of it, so you don't have to delete the current > value ("all remaining space"). ^U works as expected. Hope it still works after your patches are applied. ;-) Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." Mark Valentine uses "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* and endorses FreeBSD -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 22:25: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F6837B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF15BD34 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25772 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:24:58 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0O6S4g01566; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:28:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020123180421.01d7b220@localhost> <3C4F69AD.38A01F0D@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Jan 2002 22:28:04 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C4F69AD.38A01F0D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9sit9s9saz.t9s@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 40 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Brett Glass wrote: > > Who is attempting to enforce such absurdly tight restrictions > > on the use of the FreeBSD trademark? Certainly, there should be > > an ability to offer one's own installer, as is true with NetBSD. > > Brett, don't be a troll. You know very well. It's not like > this is a new audience for the gripe. The gripe is new to me, so I guess that makes this a new audience. On the assumption that the trademark should be in the hands of some non-profit group or that it should be treated as if it were, I'm not sure what conditions SHOULD be placed on the use of the trademark. The loosest conditions are simply that the trademark owner be acknowledged in certain uses such as advertising and CD boxes; the only reason being to prevent someone else from owning the mark and applying Draconian conditions. But there are other conditions which an organization could reasonably, if controversially, impose. 1) Various levels of conformity so people know what "FreeBSD" means and what they're getting when they get the OS. This allows books and documnetation to be written without all kinds of confusion as in the Linux world. 2) Various arbitrary selections of software or designs simply to please the organization leadership or to avoid competition from money-making value-adders. It's quite reasonable for a trademark-owning organization to 100% specify what their mark may be applied to. I think it should be possible to allow some leeway in FreeBSD distributions without causing Linux-like mass confusion, but I'm sure opinions vary widely as to what that should be. Perhaps some requirement for using a standard installer and other standard software, or more likely, a requirement for proper notice of deviations from a standard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 22:32:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A5937B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:32:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id AA5A14BE00C2; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:31:54 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Terry Lambert , David Schultz Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:31:16 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20020123223104.SM01952@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 23 January 2002 04:57 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on the ke= ys: > David Schultz wrote: > > I think FreeBSD's installer could be better, too, but it works in a > > fairly straightforward manner as long as you don't have strange > > hardware. > > FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. > > It's pretty damn unforgiving, in fact. > Grrr. > > -- Terry Hope you all don't mind my .02 worth, I'm just a typical (?) end-user. Be= en=20 using FreeBSD less than 2 years, installed it maybe a dozen times or so,=20 always 'dangerously dedicated'. I've never had a problem understanding th= e=20 partitioning screens. I'm not a developer or programmer of any kind. I us= e=20 FBSD for my home workstation, also have a machine for the firewall, and a= =20 third for a web/mysql server.=20 I've always found it quite simple (I've had more problems with MS OS's,=20 especially on laptops, I'm an NT :-( network admin, at work) - the first=20 thing I did was give / 100 megs, then give /swap double whatever the ram = is,=20 and the rest goes to /usr. When all's said and done, I symlink /tmp to=20 /usr/tmp and /var to /usr/var.=20 I know there are many other ways to set up partitions, with multiple OS's= =20 etc, but it never was as difficult as I've read and been led to believe.=20 I suppose there's room for improvement, since the apparent goal of many O= S's=20 is to dummy-down the install procedure so the complete computer-illiterat= e=20 can handle it, no questions asked.=20 It's been a few months since the last install (the last update was 4.4-r = that=20 I installed), and I'll be installing 4.5-r soon as the iso is downloadabl= e.=20 If it's of any interest, I'll be glad to post my install experiences and=20 general thoughts, pertaining to the partition section in particular. Or, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and not had any problems? :-) Regards, --=20 Chip www.wiegand.org <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 22:43:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F1637B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 168D4FC2; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:43:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:43:13 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chip Cc: Terry Lambert , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Message-ID: <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <20020123223104.SM01952@there>; from chip@wiegand.org on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:31:16PM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:31:16PM -0800 I heard the voice of chip, and lo! it spake thus: > On Wednesday 23 January 2002 04:57 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on the keys: > > > FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. > > > > It's pretty damn unforgiving, in fact. > > Grrr. > > I know there are many other ways to set up partitions, with multiple OS's > etc, but it never was as difficult as I've read and been led to believe. [...] > Or, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and not had any problems? :-) I'd lean toward that option personally. The installer isn't terribly bad in the best-case scenario. It just doesn't handle the edge cases very well at all. For instance, when using SLIP (or hardwired PPP or PLIP, I imagine), you're in deep trouble if you've never done it before. You have to remember to put in the 'other ifconfig options' section the far-end address of the link, or it won't work; unless you've manually ifconfig'd SLIP lines a number of times, you'll forget. Then it'll run slattach. If you don't get it right the first time, you're screwed, because it'll never clear the old attachment correctly. Gotta reboot and start over. As Terry mentioned, there are several ways to foul-up yourself into a tight little corner in the disk partitioning (and that's if you KNOW what you're doing. The first time through, it can be kinda hairy just figuring out what you're doing). And, as Jordan has ranted about on a few occasions, the UI is painted into a rather small corner by virtue of the dialog library it uses. Ever have that joy in places like the 'custom distribution choices' for the custom installation, where you're not quite sure whether enter or space is select, and the wrong choice will bump you back menus? And, of course, that's not even getting into the "other" issues which require a more thorough packaging system to handle correctly (Tried installing, then installing X? It dumps on a few compat_* sets. Even if you already installed them. Sucks on a modem, lemme tell ya). It works apparently smoothly in the best-case. In most simple-cases, it won't feel worse than rough-around-the-edges. Start making mistakes, or trying to get intricate, though, and it feels rather like wearing your high school sweater to your 30th reunion. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 22:52:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7AD37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0O6qEh62036; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:52:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:52:14 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chip , Terry Lambert , David Schultz , Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") In-Reply-To: <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20020123224541.E32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > For instance, when using SLIP (or hardwired PPP or PLIP, I imagine), > you're in deep trouble if you've never done it before. You have to > remember to put in the 'other ifconfig options' section the far-end > address of the link, or it won't work; unless you've manually ifconfig'd > SLIP lines a number of times, you'll forget. Then it'll run slattach. > If you don't get it right the first time, you're screwed, because it'll > never clear the old attachment correctly. Gotta reboot and start over. i think most people doing that level of a fringe install are fairly hardcore users, and they're willing to make those kinds of mistakes. the rare newbie that will do a SLIP install will probably be digging up quite a bit of documentation. after several years of working with, and on, FreeBSD, i can't say i've once had to do a SLIP install, even on "low end" hardware. > As Terry mentioned, there are several ways to foul-up yourself into a > tight little corner in the disk partitioning (and that's if you KNOW what > you're doing. The first time through, it can be kinda hairy just > figuring out what you're doing). And, as Jordan has ranted about on a > few occasions, the UI is painted into a rather small corner by virtue of > the dialog library it uses. Ever have that joy in places like the > 'custom distribution choices' for the custom installation, where you're > not quite sure whether enter or space is select, and the wrong choice > will bump you back menus? i admit, this has happened to me. more often than i care to think about. > And, of course, that's not even getting into the "other" issues which > require a more thorough packaging system to handle correctly (Tried > installing, then installing X? It dumps on a few compat_* sets. Even if > you already installed them. Sucks on a modem, lemme tell ya). no comment. i gave up on doing "direct X installs" in freebsd during the 2.2 series. it's just easier to do from ports, or to install the package. > It works apparently smoothly in the best-case. In most simple-cases, it > won't feel worse than rough-around-the-edges. Start making mistakes, or > trying to get intricate, though, and it feels rather like wearing your > high school sweater to your 30th reunion. i don't find it to be "rough-around-the-edges," if anything, the FreeBSD installer is quick, and relatively painless to handle. given a little reading, and a bit of practice, even the novice user ends up warming up to it. -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 23: 7:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B67E37B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 0CDB8FC2; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:07:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:07:10 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: chip , Terry Lambert , David Schultz , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Message-ID: <20020124010710.C2760@over-yonder.net> References: <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> <20020123224541.E32624-100000@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <20020123224541.E32624-100000@localhost>; from jan@caustic.org on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:52:14PM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:52:14PM -0800 I heard the voice of f.johan.beisser, and lo! it spake thus: > > i think most people doing that level of a fringe install are fairly > hardcore users, and they're willing to make those kinds of mistakes. the > rare newbie that will do a SLIP install will probably be digging up quite > a bit of documentation. after several years of working with, and on, > FreeBSD, i can't say i've once had to do a SLIP install, even on "low end" > hardware. Hm. I must be a fairly hardcore idiot then, because I always forget the first time :P In fact, it took me several iterations before I realized that was the source of the problems; I kept thinking that all the other 'things I tried' were wrong too, because they didn't work, when in fact it was just the first failed try continuing to haunt me. SLIP can be tricky at times, hitting it dead right the first time is less than presumable. Try laptops. We all have ISA NE2k's in our junkboxes; my 386/16 has a NE2k out of my junkbox in it. Most of us don't, however, have PCMCIA NIC's in our junkboxes, and FreeBSD's history with PCMCIA isn't quite stellar, so your chances of grabbing J. Random PCMCIA NIC and having it work haven't been that great. Heck, the NIC in my current laptop only works because I have a switch; it won't negotiate half-duplex, and because it uses the ed driver, there's no ifconfig option to lock it to a speed/duplex setting. If I had a hub, it would get about 6k/sec sporadically, and I'd be better off with SLIP. Is it common? Heck no. Is it a big glaring Problem From Hell in the cases where it crops up? Heck yes. That's pretty much the standard for sysinstall; not too shabby when it works, grandiose when it fails. > i don't find it to be "rough-around-the-edges," if anything, the FreeBSD > installer is quick, and relatively painless to handle. given a little > reading, and a bit of practice, even the novice user ends up warming up to > it. Well, in the simple cases (i.e., what most people do most of the time), when you don't make big mistakes, that's exactly how it is; and that's one reason why, warts and all, it's endured so long; it works just well enough that nobody can quite get up the gumption to start from scratch (which is necessary) to write a new one (for free), because "Somebody will do it Some Time Real Soon Now", but it's broken enough that we can all bitch about it constantly until that Real Soon Now time comes. :-) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 23:16: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38D337B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A4BD12D2010A; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:16:13 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:15:35 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: Terry Lambert , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201232316523.SM01952@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 23 January 2002 10:43 pm, Matthew D. Fuller banged out on th= e=20 keys: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:31:16PM -0800 I heard the voice of > > chip, and lo! it spake thus: > > On Wednesday 23 January 2002 04:57 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on th= e=20 keys: > > > FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. > > > > > > It's pretty damn unforgiving, in fact. > > > Grrr. > > > > I know there are many other ways to set up partitions, with multiple = OS's > > etc, but it never was as difficult as I've read and been led to belie= ve. > > [...] > > > Or, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and not had any problems? :-) > > I'd lean toward that option personally. > > The installer isn't terribly bad in the best-case scenario. It just > doesn't handle the edge cases very well at all. That could be a big part of it, my machines are all older AMD K-6 series,= =20 older 15" monitors, nothing new inside. So it's all supported. > For instance, when using SLIP (or hardwired PPP or PLIP, I imagine), > you're in deep trouble if you've never done it before. =20 Again, I must've been lucky. I got user PPP up and running in less than a= n=20 hour, including attaching the external modem. I've read lots of messages = by=20 people who just can't figure it out. The example file was mostly what I u= sed,=20 and it just worked. > You have to > remember to put in the 'other ifconfig options' section the far-end > address of the link, or it won't work; unless you've manually ifconfig'= d > SLIP lines a number of times, you'll forget. Then it'll run slattach. > If you don't get it right the first time, you're screwed, because it'll > never clear the old attachment correctly. Gotta reboot and start over. I've never had a need to set up SLIP, is it even used anymore? > The first time through, it can be kinda hairy just figuring out what yo= u're=20 > doing). =20 I'm sure there are, especially setting up a dual-boot system. I just have= n't=20 experienced any problems with the partitioning part of the install. > Ever have that joy in places like the > 'custom distribution choices' for the custom installation, where you're > not quite sure whether enter or space is select, and the wrong choice > will bump you back menus? I seem to recall that happening, but not to the point of screwing up the=20 install or causing me to start over, just an inconvience. > (Tried installing, then installing X? It dumps on a few compat_* sets.= =20 I have always installed X during the initial OS install, except for when = I=20 upgraded X to 4.01 or whatever the latest was a couple months ago. > It works apparently smoothly in the best-case. In most simple-cases, i= t > won't feel worse than rough-around-the-edges. Start making mistakes, o= r > trying to get intricate, though, and it feels rather like wearing your > high school sweater to your 30th reunion. Maybe so. I have always done the install do a dedicated disk, and have=20 suggested the same to others, simply because it's so easy that way. Once again, I guess I've just been lucky so far. Maybe as my experience=20 expands I'll start seeing some of what you describe (I hope not though) := -) Regards, --=20 Chip <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 23:50:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBAE37B400 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0O7oAW62287; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:50:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:50:10 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chip , Terry Lambert , David Schultz , Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") In-Reply-To: <20020124010710.C2760@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20020123233500.I32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Hm. I must be a fairly hardcore idiot then, because I always forget the > first time :P this is what reference notes are for ;) > In fact, it took me several iterations before I realized that was the > source of the problems; I kept thinking that all the other 'things I > tried' were wrong too, because they didn't work, when in fact it was just > the first failed try continuing to haunt me. SLIP can be tricky at times, > hitting it dead right the first time is less than presumable. i never assume i get things dead right the first time. actually, i expect to make mistakes (these days, given a choice, i'll simply dd stuff over to a blank drive, and cross my fingers. this doesn't always work, though). > Try laptops. We all have ISA NE2k's in our junkboxes; my 386/16 has a > NE2k out of my junkbox in it. Most of us don't, however, have PCMCIA > NIC's in our junkboxes, and FreeBSD's history with PCMCIA isn't quite > stellar, so your chances of grabbing J. Random PCMCIA NIC and having it > work haven't been that great. Heck, the NIC in my current laptop only > works because I have a switch; it won't negotiate half-duplex, and because > it uses the ed driver, there's no ifconfig option to lock it to a > speed/duplex setting. If I had a hub, it would get about 6k/sec > sporadically, and I'd be better off with SLIP. i remember the PAO distrobution of FreeBSD. This pretty much made up for most of my problems with laptops and freebsd. of course, by the time i encountered PAO, i had a "decent" laptop (which is still around, actually) and i chose compatable PCMCIA eathernet card. The modem, on the other hand, has never worked.. > Is it common? Heck no. Is it a big glaring Problem From Hell in the > cases where it crops up? Heck yes. That's pretty much the standard for > sysinstall; not too shabby when it works, grandiose when it fails. well, this is a glaring problem with all of the "Free" OSs. When they work (which, in the last couple of years, is most of the time) they do a quite decent job. but, when they don't... it's a spectacular failure that "no one has ever seen before." i've seen this more often than i want to admit. with more than just freebsd, and well off in to most distrobutions of Linux. > Well, in the simple cases (i.e., what most people do most of the time), > when you don't make big mistakes, that's exactly how it is; and that's > one reason why, warts and all, it's endured so long; it works just well > enough that nobody can quite get up the gumption to start from scratch > (which is necessary) to write a new one (for free), because "Somebody > will do it Some Time Real Soon Now", but it's broken enough that we can > all bitch about it constantly until that Real Soon Now time comes. :-) i guess most folks find it "good enough".. i found this additude in the NetBSD community aswell, when it came to their pain in the @$$ installer. So far, out of the remaining "Free OS" BSDs, i've found FreeBSDs to be the more user friendly, and OpenBSDs to be slick and admin friendly - if not quite granular enough.. outside of that, the various linux distros that i've tried have either failed due to either awkward dependancy issues, or simply been to frustrating to do a "simple" install of the OS. as far as "writing a new installer", though, i think such a task is a bit daunting, since this is the first introduction to the OS that every user will have. i admit i am intimidated by the thought of dealing with that. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 23 23:57:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BDE37B416 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Tel7-00072L-00; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:57:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:57:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chip Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Installer (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip wrote: > > > I think FreeBSD's installer could be better, too, but it works in a > > > fairly straightforward manner as long as you don't have strange > > > hardware. > > > > FreeBSD's disk "slicing" and "partitioning" really sucks. > > > > It's pretty damn unforgiving, in fact. > > Grrr. > > Hope you all don't mind my .02 worth, I'm just a typical (?) end-user. Been > using FreeBSD less than 2 years, installed it maybe a dozen times or so, > always 'dangerously dedicated'. I've never had a problem understanding the > partitioning screens. I'm not a developer or programmer of any kind. I use > FBSD for my home workstation, also have a machine for the firewall, and a > third for a web/mysql server. I'm a developer and a programmer. I made the first patch to the VM system in 386BSD 0.1, wrote the first FAQ, and authoered the PatchKit, which got Jordan, Nate, and Rod roped into doing work on BSD based systems, and have generally been involved with BSD UNIX for about 20 years now, and *BSD from the start. Despite this, I've occasionally had problems with the FreeBSD install process. The original FreeBSD install, in fact, for 0.1 (later, 1.0, after it was renamed on the advice of Walunt Creek CDROM) required that, if you wished to use a geometry translating ESDI disk drive, you had to install NetBSD 0.8 to partition the disk successfully. > I know there are many other ways to set up partitions, with multiple OS's > etc, but it never was as difficult as I've read and been led to believe. > I suppose there's room for improvement, since the apparent goal of many OS's > is to dummy-down the install procedure so the complete computer-illiterate > can handle it, no questions asked. The actual goal is to make the installation process successful, and not fraught with peril. I spent most of last night getting FreeBSD installed and reinstalled on a disk. Part of the problem was Windows XP, part was the default setting for Partition Magic, with regard to XP operation, part of it was the Boot Magic FAq6 or FAT32 requirement, part of it was the @!$#!%! "System Recovery" CDROMs for Windows XP that used @!@#$%! Norton "Ghost", unlike the very friendly and useful Sony VAIO recovery CDROMs. But a lot of the pain came from the FreeBSD install process, as well. > It's been a few months since the last install (the last update was 4.4-r that > I installed), and I'll be installing 4.5-r soon as the iso is downloadable. > If it's of any interest, I'll be glad to post my install experiences and > general thoughts, pertaining to the partition section in particular. > Or, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and not had any problems? :-) > Regards, I think you've been "lucky". Part of it is the luck you made, with your very non-standard configuration, compared to that of most users, who install dual boot on their system (if they don't, then they install dedicated, but I would wager that this apprach is most common in large installations with a lot of machines, likely to copy whole disks to do the install, or use custom sysinstall scripts, in any case, as part of their manufacturing process). Frankly, I'm more concerned with the first time user's experience. Right now, the "cost" of installing FreeBSD is $70 for the Partition Magic program capable of resizing and relocating the Windows XP partition that comes preinstalled on most pre-built systems, plus the cost of installing FreeBSD (a CDROM purchase is likely, if you can find one in stores... Fry's doesn't have them any more, most likely because they have run out and can't get them, or that's what they say). In other words, the cost of installing it appears to be going up, which is not a good thing. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 1:16: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 667B737B405 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 32082 invoked by uid 100); 24 Jan 2002 09:15:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15439.53454.597007.792834@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:15:58 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chip , Terry Lambert , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") In-Reply-To: <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller types: > It works apparently smoothly in the best-case. In most simple-cases, it > won't feel worse than rough-around-the-edges. Start making mistakes, or > trying to get intricate, though, and it feels rather like wearing your > high school sweater to your 30th reunion. Since we're reciting history - I've been doing Unix installs since v6. I started using BSD with 4.0, and FreeBSD with 3.0 - which was also the first time I ever dealt with Wintel hardware. I've installed Unix on PDP-11/34's and Cray X/MPs, and lots of strange things in between. I've installed MS OS's from DOS through Windows ME, including Windows For Workgroups to create a networked classroom just downhill from a glacier 6 degrees from the equator. I've also installed MacOS, AmigaDOS and some other odds and ends. I've also dealth with NetBSD and a number of different Linux distributions. You know what - Matthew paragraph needs one more sentence after the second one: "In complex cases, you can get confused and make mistakes, but you can get the job done." With that addition, the paragraph describes the best of them. There were a few that don't get you into trouble if you make a mistake - but they also don't handle the complex cases at all, and make handling even the simpler cases that weren't the default painfull. The worst of them did that, and gave you a default case that no sane sysadmin would use. In other words, it's nothing to be ashamed of. That doesn't mean it doesn't need improvement; it just means that every installer I've ever run into needs improvement. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 2:27:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3C637B404; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0O9vgv98666; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:57:42 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:57:42 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nik Clayton , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Message-ID: <20020124095742.J53456@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020124014413.F53456@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <3C4F6CAB.76D9CAE2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6K2R/cS9K4qvcBNq" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C4F6CAB.76D9CAE2@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 06:08:43PM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6K2R/cS9K4qvcBNq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 06:08:43PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > You, or anyone else, are free to create their own installer and/or > > related technologies. You can create your own FreeBSD distro if you wa= nt, > > and go and market it. > >=20 > > But you must also include, somewhere, the project's installation > > routine, and provide a mechanism that lets the end user choose what gets > > run. >=20 > How about we call this mechanism "buying CDROM A instead of CDROM B"? How about we call it "Providing a fall back that the project can point to on -questions so they can say 'We can't answer questions about any installer except the project's -- please contact your vendor if you're having problems with their installation routine'". > > For example, you might ship on CDROM, and include the project's floppy > > disk images, and instructions on how to use them to create a "FreeBSD > > Project" install. >=20 > This is actually the first time this particular option has > been raised as "permissable". I've mentioned this before, and to you. Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:25:13 +0100 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010710112513.D16152@clan.nothing-going-on.org> [...] Not at all. If you're thinking of shipping a CD, make sure that somewhere on that CD is a copy of the existing two floppy images, a copy of fdimage (or similar), and a paragraph of documentation that says: If you would prefer to use the standard FreeBSD installer (sysinstall) then take two blank floppies. Insert the first floppy, and run "fdimage mfsroot.flp a:", then insert the second floppy and run "fdimage boot.flp a:". Leave that floppy in the drive, and reboot (making sure to set your BIOS to "boot from floppy"). The FreeBSD Project installer will then start. Using this installer is not documented here (we strongly urge you to use the installer we provide and document) but it is covered in chapter 2 of the FreeBSD Handbook, at http://www.FreeBSD.org/. That would completely satisfy the requirements I've outlined. [...] > > Or you could describe how the user can interrupt the > > boot process and change the init path variable to point to sysinstall > > instead of your own installer. >=20 > Not workable, due to CDROM boot image size restrictions. That's not an issue. By this point, the CD has already booted, and we're in the FreeBSD loader. Specifically, I'm talking about setting the "init_path" variable. Your custom distribution might come with init_path set to "/terry/install". Your instructions just need to say: If you would prefer to use the standard FreeBSD installer, boot from CDROM as normal. When you see the '>' prompt, press SPACE to interrupt the boot process. Then type set init_path=3D/stand/sysinstall boot The FreeBSD Project installer will then start. Using this installer is not documented here (we strongly urge you to use the installer we provide and document) but it is covered in chapter 2 of the FreeBSD Handbook, at http://www.FreeBSD.org/. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --6K2R/cS9K4qvcBNq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjxP2pYACgkQk6gHZCw343WvBQCffDKbwJADiYXIK4e/hK/NZUbl YkwAoIQR8h968kQc10AN3gXkFwPxb/ll =PUg1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6K2R/cS9K4qvcBNq-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 3:46:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2D837B402; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0006.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.6] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TiLF-0000wo-00; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:46:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3C4FF428.F439B7FB@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:46:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020124014413.F53456@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <3C4F6CAB.76D9CAE2@mindspring.com> <20020124095742.J53456@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > > > But you must also include, somewhere, the project's installation > > > routine, and provide a mechanism that lets the end user choose what gets > > > run. > > > > How about we call this mechanism "buying CDROM A instead of CDROM B"? > > How about we call it "Providing a fall back that the project can point > to on -questions so they can say 'We can't answer questions about any > installer except the project's -- please contact your vendor if you're > having problems with their installation routine'". Actually, they can say that without a fallback. It seems you really want to be able to say "Use our installer instead". How about "Boot the ``Ports and Packages'' CD", with a multiple CD distribution? > > > For example, you might ship on CDROM, and include the project's floppy > > > disk images, and instructions on how to use them to create a "FreeBSD > > > Project" install. > > > > This is actually the first time this particular option has > > been raised as "permissable". > > I've mentioned this before, and to you. > > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:25:13 +0100 > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral > Message-ID: <20010710112513.D16152@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Was this "To:" me? Or "To:" Brett? I think that it was pointed out the "fdimage" didn't get level 3 and 0 volume locks on the disk, so it couldn't write raw floppies from revent versions of Windows... ...Still, this approach is not listed as being acceptable, in writing, by the trademark license agreement, which doesn't exist, and you aren't the trademark holder, so you saying this and it being true past the point of legal risk are two very different things, aren't they? > If you would prefer to use the standard FreeBSD installer, boot from > CDROM as normal. When you see the '>' prompt, press SPACE to > interrupt the boot process. Then type > > set init_path=/stand/sysinstall > boot Apparently you missed the "size restriction" of 2.88M for the floppy image for the boot floppy MFS, which (probably) would not be able to fit both the "/stand/sysinstall" and the "/stand/goodinstall" at the same time. This would be less of a problem if you could figure out a way of portably running code directly off the CDROM, but if we could do that, then the MFS wouldn't be so large, and FreeBSD would be able to boot in a small amount of memory again (e.g. 4M). Of course, since we can't assume a BIOS interface to the CDROM drive, we're screwed here. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 6:22:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD3D37B404 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A8A2137500DA; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:22:26 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD Installer (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:21:49 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201240622374.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 23 January 2002 11:57 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on the ke= ys: > I think you've been "lucky". Part of it is the luck you made, > with your very non-standard configuration, compared to that of I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. I'm open for a= =20 little extra 'fun'. ;-) --=20 Chip <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 7:32:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D23C37B400 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0012.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.12] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TlrI-0002M7-00; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5028F0.97A0CC56@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:32:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chip Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Installer (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <200201240622374.SM01304@there> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip wrote: > On Wednesday 23 January 2002 11:57 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on the keys: > > I think you've been "lucky". Part of it is the luck you made, > > with your very non-standard configuration, compared to that of > > I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. I'm open for a > little extra 'fun'. ;-) If you must, then here are some "spoilers" for you. Ignore these, if you want to get the "full experience". PS: Create a Boot Magic "Rescue disk" when it asks you to! You *will* need it, and if you don't have it, you will *NOT* be able to use the recovery CDROMs to reinstall Windows XP! [ ... spoilers .... ] . . . . . . . . . 1) You need Partition Magic 7.0 to do Windows XP partitions; previous versions don't work on them. Expect to make a trip to the store and shell out $70 (you get a $20 rebate, if you buy the package with the rebate sticker AND you have the box from a previous version to cut the UPC off to send it in). 2) If you try to install Boot Magic up front, it's going to fail; you have to create a FAT16 or FAT32 partition to hold the Boot Magic data, since the boot blocks can't read Windows XP FS's, only FAT16 or FAT32. 3) If you want it to actually work, you have to create a "Primary" partition. To do this, you have to tell it that you intend to boot an OS from the thing, even if you don't intend to. Otherwise, it makes a secondary partition in a primary extended partition, and you are screwed. 4) The safest one to use is a FAT32 (Windows 98) partition; this means you have to burn 40M (actually, 47.1M) on the thing. 5) You have to put the new partition up front on the disk. So, to recap and give explicit steps, you need to: i) Start with a Windows XP system ii) Install Partition Magic 7.x iii) Resize the Windows XP partition smaller; 6G is about the maximum, since the FAT32, Windows XP, and FreeBSD root disk all have to be in the first 8G of disk space (NT must be all within the first 4G, if you plan to boot from the disk!). iv) Create a small FAT32 partition at the front of the disk v) Apply the changes (requires a reboot) Now we are in "shoot yourself in the foot" territory... 6) Install Boot Magic 7) CREATE A RECOVERY DISK 8) DO *NOT* EXIT IT UNTIL YOU HAVE CONFIGURED IT COMPLETELY FOR THE BOOT OF WINOWS XP, OR YOU WILL NEED TO REINSTALL! 9) You need to mark the XP partition as the default 10) If you don't change the properties on the Windows XP boot selection, you *WILL NOT* be able to get back into the Boot Magic config program, and you *WILL NOT* be able to recover with the recovery disk. 10a) If you find yourself in this position, you need to boot the recovery disk, and exit out to a DOS prompt; then at the DOS prompt, use the undocumented "/X" option on the FDISK program on the command line, and delete *ALL* the partitions, or the Windows XP recovery CDROM may not work! (vendor specific; that's "FDISK /X", if you weren't paying attention). 11) You *MUST* modify the boot partition properties *away* from the defaults that Boot Magic installs; if you do not do this, then the parition where the Boot Magic files operate *WILL NOT* be accessible to Windows XP! 12) Then, *AND ONLY THEN*, can you exit the Boot Magic setup and reboot. Time for another recap, giving explicit steps: vi) Install Boot Magic vii) Do a "properties" on the Windows XP boot menu entry viii) Check the "Override defaults" checkbox, and make the FAT32 partition visible to Windows XP. IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS, YOU WILL HAVE TO REINSTALL WINDOWS XP. ix) You also *MUST* mark the Windows XP partition as the default or Boot Magic will select the FAT32 as default, and YOU WILL HAVE TO REINSTALL WINDOWS XP. x) If you want, delete the FAT32 partition out of the boot menu entirely, since it's not really bootable. 13) Reboot your system into Windows XP to verify that the installation is all happy. If it's not, you made a mistake somewhere, and your will need to scratch the disk and restart the process. 14) Shutdown and boot from your FreeBSD CDROM; you are now ready to try installing FreeBSD. [ At this point, we note how dangerous it is to even try to install FreeBSD at all, these days... 8-( ] [ Do your FreeBSD install thing ] 15) Boot Windows XP again, and add FreeBSD to the boot menu. 16) Use the "Properties" to override the default *again* and make the FAT32 and Windows XP partitions visible to FreeBSD, if you want to be able to mount them from FreeBSD at all. 17) Reboot again to test both Windows XP and FreeBSD booting. If it works, you have dodged the bullet. Final recap: xi) Add FreeBSD to the boot menu xii) Make sure you override the visibility defaults, so FreeBSD can see the Windows XP and FAT32 disks; the FAT32 disk is useful for transferring data between the OSs. If you actually get this far without giving up, I have a couple of "FreeBSD Daemon" igon artworks for the Boot Magic menu I can give you. 8-). Compared to the rest of the process, reverse engineering the icons so that they can be replaced was a breeze. Whee! Isn't installing FreeBSD fun and simple for anyone who wants to set up a dual boot system so that they can try it out for the first time?!? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 8:22:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C6D37B402 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0OGMK510260; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:22:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020123223104.SM01952@there> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:35:48 +0100 To: chip From: Brad Knowles Subject: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:31 PM -0800 2002/01/23, chip wrote: > the first > thing I did was give / 100 megs, then give /swap double whatever the ram is, > and the rest goes to /usr. The issue of what is intelligent partitioning has been discussed previously on this list. However, I believe that dumping everything in /usr is a really bad idea. Among other things, you have no way of keeping a runaway program from eating up all available disk space and causing a serious DoS on the system. With a separate /var partition, a runaway program is likely to only be able to fill that up, leaving the rest of the system okay. You'd need to symlink /usr/tmp to /var/tmp, however. > When all's said and done, I symlink /tmp to > /usr/tmp and /var to /usr/var. This has also been discussed previously. However, I believe that there is much more agreement that symlinking /tmp to anywhere not on the root filesystem is a really, really bad idea -- what happens during boot if the system need to write something to /tmp, but /tmp is a symlink to a filesystem that hasn't been mounted yet? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 9:15:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F6C37B404 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0OHGJS43271; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:16:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:16:19 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: ryan@catalyst.sasknow.net To: Brad Knowles Cc: chip , Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020124102557.R42409-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote to chip: [...] > what happens during boot if the system need to write something to > /tmp, but /tmp is a symlink to a filesystem that hasn't been mounted > yet? Dear Mr. Knowles, We symlink /tmp to /var/tmp on all of our servers, so my company is obviously very interested in knowing if this represents a potential problem, in the event that we need to reboot any of our machines before they die of natural causes. We would appreciate your expertise. Could you grep through the rc scripts and tell us if /tmp is ever accessed before the local filesystems are mounted? Our technical staff is currently in rehab for pipe abuse, and I can't remember for the life of me how to use this cryptic ``more'' command, let alone where I can find ``/etc/rc''. Please take your time. You wouldn't want to reply before thinking it through. Please reply ASAP, because I'm going to need to know, by Monday afternoon latest, if I need to submit a proposal, here, to immediately rebuild our servers with larger / partitions and discontinue use of the /var/tmp symlink, if you can confirm this to be a problem on boot. Please include your contact information so your findings can be properly cited in my internal proposal. I am sure your response holds the acute attention of this list, as well. Please advise. Yours most sincerely, - Ryan Thompson -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 9:57:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709C637B416 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19826; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:53:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020124105122.01c23d00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:53:51 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C4F69AD.38A01F0D@mindspring.com> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020123180421.01d7b220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:55 PM 1/23/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> Who is attempting to enforce such absurdly tight restrictions >> on the use of the FreeBSD trademark? Certainly, there should be >> an ability to offer one's own installer, as is true with NetBSD. > >Brett, don't be a troll. You know very well. It's not like >this is a new audience for the gripe. I'm not being a troll at all, Terry. The ownership of the FreeBSD trademark has now changed hands twice, and it is not at all clear that the "rules" (as if there ever were any official ones) are the same. What really SHOULD happen is that the tradmark should be transferred to the FreeBSD Foundation, which should immediately create PUBLISHED guidelines for the use of the trademark. Then, people wishing to create products including or complimenting FreeBSD will know exactly where they stand. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 10:33:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com (mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447EF37B416 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd03.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16TogN-0007Ez-0B; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:33:07 +0100 Received: from pc5.abc (520067998749-0001@[217.233.117.215]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 16TogA-0CL03kC; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:32:54 +0100 Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.abc (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0OIWr678706 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:32:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from list@rachinsky.de) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:32:53 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Message-ID: <20020124183253.GB73895@pc5.abc> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020123223104.SM01952@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-Sender: 520067998749-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 04:35:48PM +0100, * Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:31 PM -0800 2002/01/23, chip wrote: > > When all's said and done, I symlink /tmp to > > /usr/tmp and /var to /usr/var. > > This has also been discussed previously. However, I believe > that there is much more agreement that symlinking /tmp to anywhere > not on the root filesystem is a really, really bad idea -- what > happens during boot if the system need to write something to /tmp, > but /tmp is a symlink to a filesystem that hasn't been mounted yet? You can create a /usr/tmp directory residing on the / filesystem, can't you? Nicolas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 11:12:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4273837B41B for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E720BBD97; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04554; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:12:55 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0OJFb302379; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:15:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Jan 2002 11:15:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > > When all's said and done, I symlink /tmp to > > /usr/tmp and /var to /usr/var. > > This has also been discussed previously. However, I believe > that there is much more agreement that symlinking /tmp to anywhere not > on the root filesystem is a really, really bad idea -- what happens > during boot if the system need to write something to /tmp, but /tmp is a > symlink to a filesystem that hasn't been mounted yet? Many (but not all) such problems can be handled by having /tmp symlink to a directory that exists whether or not a parent of that directory is mounted. Eg, /tmp -> /var/tmp and you make a /var/tmp directory when /var is unmounted. If anything shows up in the unmounted /var/tmp (which you could have a script check for just before next "mount -a"), you've discovered a bug, IMO. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 11:29:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09B237B416 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CAD2BD96; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10027; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:29:53 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0OJWZN02384; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020124004312.A2760@over-yonder.net> <20020123224541.E32624-100000@localhost> <20020124010710.C2760@over-yonder.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Jan 2002 11:32:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020124010710.C2760@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > Well, in the simple cases (i.e., what most people do most of the time), > when you don't make big mistakes, that's exactly how it is; and that's > one reason why, warts and all, it's endured so long; it works just well > enough that nobody can quite get up the gumption to start from scratch > (which is necessary) to write a new one (for free), because "Somebody > will do it Some Time Real Soon Now", but it's broken enough that we can > all bitch about it constantly until that Real Soon Now time comes. :-) I've been wondering how many people have assumed that someone else is already working on a sysinstall replacement after reading the entry for http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html on the reference on http://www.freebsd.org/projects/index.html which says "It also includes the beginnings of a new sysinstall." The libh site show activity as recently as 20'jan'02, but it's not quickly obvious just what they intend to develop or what remains to be done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 14:23:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F18C37B402 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:23:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 38010 invoked by uid 100); 24 Jan 2002 22:23:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:23:15 -0600 To: Brad Knowles Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") In-Reply-To: References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 10:31 PM -0800 2002/01/23, chip wrote: > > thing I did was give / 100 megs, then give /swap double whatever the ram is, > > and the rest goes to /usr. > The issue of what is intelligent partitioning has been > discussed previously on this list. However, I believe that dumping > everything in /usr is a really bad idea. Among other things, you > have no way of keeping a runaway program from eating up all available > disk space and causing a serious DoS on the system. With a separate > /var partition, a runaway program is likely to only be able to fill > that up, leaving the rest of the system okay. You'd need to symlink > /usr/tmp to /var/tmp, however. So instead of causing a serious DoS by running /usr out of space, you cause a serious DoS by running /var out of space. That will shut down all the daemons that log to /var/log; anything trying to update things in /var/db, which is most of the databases; mail and the printers will quit working; and so on. Unless you've got user home directories on /usr, it's relatively static. Leaving /var on it just means you get that much more space to run out of before things break. The same thing applies to /. So the end result of leaving /, /usr and /var on one file system - so long as users home directories aren't on it - is that /var has lots of free space. In practice, I typically split out /usr and back it up much less frequently than / + /var, as / and /var have critical information on them. If it's a sever without users, I put all the server data on /var, with the binaries on /, and mount / read-only. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 14:34:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D1237B404 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0162.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.162] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TsRz-0004Xt-00; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:34:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3C508BEF.DA84A646@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:34:23 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Thompson Cc: Brad Knowles , chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was"Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020124102557.R42409-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ryan Thompson wrote: > We symlink /tmp to /var/tmp on all of our servers, so my company is > obviously very interested in knowing if this represents a potential > problem, in the event that we need to reboot any of our machines > before they die of natural causes. boot -s mkdir /var/tmp No longer a problem: if /var isn't mounted, it will use a /tmp on /. The real issue is that the / FS should be mounted read-only, if we were doing things correctly. Personally, I've only rarely needed /tmp (you will not believe the hacks to shell scripts in tape install images that I have done using dd with byte counts as if it were "sed", in order to get Ultrix to install on disks it didn't want to install on). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 14:38:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40FA37B41B for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0162.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.162] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16TsVO-00025F-00; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:38:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C508CC6.92A386B6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:37:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020123180421.01d7b220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124105122.01c23d00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > I'm not being a troll at all, Terry. The ownership of the FreeBSD > trademark has now changed hands twice, and it is not at all clear > that the "rules" (as if there ever were any official ones) are the > same. > > What really SHOULD happen is that the tradmark should be transferred > to the FreeBSD Foundation, which should immediately create PUBLISHED > guidelines for the use of the trademark. Then, people wishing to > create products including or complimenting FreeBSD will know exactly > where they stand. If you mean it should be licensed, under published terms, I agree. My "troll" comment was for you taking one piece of a posting out of context, and trivializing everything else in that posting thereby. I still haven't gotten any useful-to-me discussion over the rest of it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 14:55:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4347537B42C for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0OMtaW45530; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:55:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:55:36 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: ryan@catalyst.sasknow.net To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was"Re: ... RedHat ...")") In-Reply-To: <3C508BEF.DA84A646@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020124164953.R43433-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry... Maybe you missed the obvious satire in my post? :-) Ah well, maybe it's not up to bikeshed standards, but at least I had a good chuckle writing it this morning. :-) - Ryan Terry Lambert wrote to Ryan Thompson: > Ryan Thompson wrote: > > We symlink /tmp to /var/tmp on all of our servers, so my company is > > obviously very interested in knowing if this represents a potential > > problem, in the event that we need to reboot any of our machines > > before they die of natural causes. > > boot -s > > mkdir /var/tmp > > No longer a problem: if /var isn't mounted, it will use a /tmp > on /. > > The real issue is that the / FS should be mounted read-only, > if we were doing things correctly. > > Personally, I've only rarely needed /tmp (you will not believe > the hacks to shell scripts in tape install images that I have > done using dd with byte counts as if it were "sed", in order > to get Ultrix to install on disks it didn't want to install on). > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 15:41:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C4937B416 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0ONfN828626; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:41:25 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020124183253.GB73895@pc5.abc> References: <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <20020124183253.GB73895@pc5.abc> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:22:48 +0100 To: Nicolas Rachinsky , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:32 PM +0100 2002/01/24, Nicolas Rachinsky wrote: > You can create a /usr/tmp directory residing on the / filesystem, > can't you? You could, but my experience is that this is how extremely large amounts of disk space can go quietly missing, without anyone ever managing to figure out where it went. Been there, done that. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 15:41:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9675437B417 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0ONfQ828672; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:41:26 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:28:12 +0100 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:15 AM -0800 2002/01/24, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Many (but not all) such problems can be handled by having /tmp symlink > to a directory that exists whether or not a parent of that directory is > mounted. Eg, /tmp -> /var/tmp and you make a /var/tmp directory when > /var is unmounted. If anything shows up in the unmounted /var/tmp > (which you could have a script check for just before next "mount -a"), > you've discovered a bug, IMO. Granted, you can do this. But this is not standard behaviour, and unless you carry this modification with you to all affected machines you ever administer, you could easily silently lose disk space that no one ever manages to figure out where it's gone. Even if you do so, you've now got a crutch that won't exist on other systems, and you're more likely to trip yourself up when you do the symlink part and you forget the rest. This is kind of like alias'ing rm to be something less dangerous for root, and then seriously injuring yourself on an unpatched system. IMO, you're better off leaving /tmp alone, and more carefully monitoring the disk space on the root filesystem instead. If all your own tools always use /usr/tmp or /var/tmp (or whatever), then you should only be left with the standard tools which might scribble all over /tmp, and they should be easier to catch. Alternatively, if you want a separate /tmp filesystem (so that /tmp is writable during the early stages of boot, but is not dangerous to the root filesystem once you're in multi-user mode), you could go so far as to make it an mfs, and it would be wicked fast. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 15:41:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D954C37B400 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0ONfS828717; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:41:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:35:59 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:23 PM -0600 2002/01/24, Mike Meyer wrote: > So instead of causing a serious DoS by running /usr out of space, you > cause a serious DoS by running /var out of space. That will shut down > all the daemons that log to /var/log; anything trying to update things > in /var/db, which is most of the databases; mail and the printers will > quit working; and so on. That's assuming that you don't have a separate /var/tmp and/or a separate /var/log, which I always do. Moreover, IMO a full /var is less dangerous than a full everything-but-the-root-filesystem (including /var, /usr, and everything else). In addition, with separate filesystems available for /var (and various subdirectories under it), you can now mount them nosuid and make them much, much less dangerous, and you should be able to mount /usr read-only (assuming a separate /usr/local), which will make it more difficult for people/skript k1dd13s/programs to take a user-level security compromise and turn it into a root-level security compromise. > Unless you've got user home directories on /usr, it's relatively > static. Leaving /var on it just means you get that much more space to > run out of before things break. When programs run amok, they run amok fast enough that *no* amount of disk space is likely to give you enough additional time to notice what's going on and to fix it. I've blown disk space partitions that were in the tens of GB as a result of programs running amok, and if I hadn't segregated them onto separate filesystems, the entire machine would have been hosed. > The same thing applies to /. So the > end result of leaving /, /usr and /var on one file system - so long as > users home directories aren't on it - is that /var has lots of free > space. Why not just put everything on a single filesystem and be done with it? I mean, if you're going to be silly, we might as well be really silly. No, there are very good reasons why we create separate partitions for separate parts of the directory tree, and now that we have individual disk drives that easily measure 100GB or more, there should be no problem with having too much space in partition A and not enough in partition B. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 17:49:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA07A37B421 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A9C2341600B2; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:49:54 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Ryan Thompson , Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was"Re: ... RedHat ...")") Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:49:18 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020124164953.R43433-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> In-Reply-To: <20020124164953.R43433-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201241749909.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 24 January 2002 02:55 pm, Ryan Thompson banged out on the key= s: > Terry... > > Maybe you missed the obvious satire in my post? :-) > > Ah well, maybe it's not up to bikeshed standards, but at least I had a > good chuckle writing it this morning. :-) > > - Ryan I had a good chuckle reading it.=20 :-) Regards, Chip > Terry Lambert wrote to Ryan Thompson: > > Ryan Thompson wrote: > > > We symlink /tmp to /var/tmp on all of our servers, so my company is > > > obviously very interested in knowing if this represents a potential > > > problem, in the event that we need to reboot any of our machines > > > before they die of natural causes. > > > > boot -s > > > > mkdir /var/tmp > > > > No longer a problem: if /var isn't mounted, it will use a /tmp > > on /. > > > > The real issue is that the / FS should be mounted read-only, > > if we were doing things correctly. > > > > Personally, I've only rarely needed /tmp (you will not believe > > the hacks to shell scripts in tape install images that I have > > done using dd with byte counts as if it were "sed", in order > > to get Ultrix to install on disks it didn't want to install on). > > > > -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 18: 2:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF9837B402 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id ACBE1C3D00DC; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:02:38 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:02:02 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201241802591.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 24 January 2002 07:35 am, Brad Knowles banged out on the keys= : > > When all's said and done, I symlink /tmp= to > > /usr/tmp and /var to /usr/var. > > =09This has also been discussed previously. However, I believe > that there is much more agreement that symlinking /tmp to anywhere > not on the root filesystem is a really, really bad idea -- what > happens during boot if the system need to write something to /tmp, > but /tmp is a symlink to a filesystem that hasn't been mounted yet? Well, like I mentioned early on, I am relatively new to FreeBSD, less tha= n 2=20 years or so. The way I set it up is based on what I read in the books by = Greg=20 L. and Ted M., and read in these mail lists. I figure if they suggest /tm= p be=20 symlinked to /usr/tmp and /var to /usr/var then that's good enough for me= ,=20 because I don't know any better. If the guys following this thread, seems= to=20 qute a few now, have better suggestions, I open to them. I want to learn as much as I can about FreeBSD, in hopes of changing jobs= =20 from a winblows-centric network admin to higher level up. And these=20 discussions sure help alot. Thanks, --=20 Chip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 18:21:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9C937B404 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25639; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:21:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020124191822.02926520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:21:07 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C508CC6.92A386B6@mindspring.com> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123091107.T32624-100000@localhost> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020123180421.01d7b220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124105122.01c23d00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 PM 1/24/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >My "troll" comment was for you taking one piece of a posting >out of context, and trivializing everything else in that >posting thereby. I didn't intend to do that. Perhaps the medium of e-mail is responsible for the misunderstanding.... Maybe we all should sit down and discuss these things over sandwiches at Max's Deli during BSDCon. Much higher bandwidth. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 19: 6: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197DC37B400 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id ABA51D0200DC; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:06:13 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD Installer (was "Re: ... RedHat ...") Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:05:37 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <200201240622374.SM01304@there> <3C5028F0.97A0CC56@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C5028F0.97A0CC56@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201241906749.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks alot. After reading all that I think I've had more than enough for= one=20 day (or two or three even). Maybe doing just for the fun of it - isn't. M= aybe=20 someday, not real soon though, I'm sure. Just the little experience with = XP=20 this week (at work) was enough to last a lifetime.=20 ;-) -- Chip On Thursday 24 January 2002 07:32 am, Terry Lambert banged out on the key= s: > chip wrote: > > On Wednesday 23 January 2002 11:57 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on th= e=20 keys: > > > I think you've been "lucky". Part of it is the luck you made, > > > with your very non-standard configuration, compared to that of > > > > I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. I'm open f= or a > > little extra 'fun'. ;-) > > If you must, then here are some "spoilers" for you. Ignore > these, if you want to get the "full experience". > > PS: Create a Boot Magic "Rescue disk" when it asks you to! > You *will* need it, and if you don't have it, you will > *NOT* be able to use the recovery CDROMs to reinstall > Windows XP! > > [ ... spoilers .... ] > > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > 1) You need Partition Magic 7.0 to do Windows XP partitions; > previous versions don't work on them. Expect to make a > trip to the store and shell out $70 (you get a $20 rebate, > if you buy the package with the rebate sticker AND you > have the box from a previous version to cut the UPC off to > send it in). > > 2) If you try to install Boot Magic up front, it's going to > fail; you have to create a FAT16 or FAT32 partition to > hold the Boot Magic data, since the boot blocks can't > read Windows XP FS's, only FAT16 or FAT32. > > 3) If you want it to actually work, you have to create a > "Primary" partition. To do this, you have to tell it > that you intend to boot an OS from the thing, even if > you don't intend to. Otherwise, it makes a secondary > partition in a primary extended partition, and you are > screwed. > > 4) The safest one to use is a FAT32 (Windows 98) partition; > this means you have to burn 40M (actually, 47.1M) on the > thing. > > 5) You have to put the new partition up front on the disk. > > So, to recap and give explicit steps, you need to: > > i)=09Start with a Windows XP system > ii)=09Install Partition Magic 7.x > iii)=09Resize the Windows XP partition smaller; 6G is about > =09the maximum, since the FAT32, Windows XP, and FreeBSD > =09root disk all have to be in the first 8G of disk > =09space (NT must be all within the first 4G, if you > =09plan to boot from the disk!). > iv)=09Create a small FAT32 partition at the front > of the disk > v)=09Apply the changes (requires a reboot) > > Now we are in "shoot yourself in the foot" territory... > > 6)=09Install Boot Magic > > 7)=09CREATE A RECOVERY DISK > > 8)=09DO *NOT* EXIT IT UNTIL YOU HAVE CONFIGURED IT > =09COMPLETELY FOR THE BOOT OF WINOWS XP, OR YOU > =09WILL NEED TO REINSTALL! > > 9)=09You need to mark the XP partition as the default > > 10)=09If you don't change the properties on the Windows > =09XP boot selection, you *WILL NOT* be able to get > =09back into the Boot Magic config program, and you > =09*WILL NOT* be able to recover with the recovery > =09disk. > > 10a)=09If you find yourself in this position, you need to > =09boot the recovery disk, and exit out to a DOS prompt; > =09then at the DOS prompt, use the undocumented "/X" > =09option on the FDISK program on the command line, and > =09delete *ALL* the partitions, or the Windows XP > =09recovery CDROM may not work! (vendor specific; > =09that's "FDISK /X", if you weren't paying attention). > > 11)=09You *MUST* modify the boot partition properties > =09*away* from the defaults that Boot Magic installs; > =09if you do not do this, then the parition where the > =09Boot Magic files operate *WILL NOT* be accessible to > =09Windows XP! > > 12)=09Then, *AND ONLY THEN*, can you exit the Boot Magic > =09setup and reboot. > > Time for another recap, giving explicit steps: > > vi)=09Install Boot Magic > vii)=09Do a "properties" on the Windows XP boot menu entry > viii)=09Check the "Override defaults" checkbox, and make the > =09FAT32 partition visible to Windows XP. IF YOU DO NOT > =09DO THIS, YOU WILL HAVE TO REINSTALL WINDOWS XP. > ix)=09You also *MUST* mark the Windows XP partition as the > =09default or Boot Magic will select the FAT32 as default, > =09and YOU WILL HAVE TO REINSTALL WINDOWS XP. > x)=09If you want, delete the FAT32 partition out of the boot > =09menu entirely, since it's not really bootable. > > 13)=09Reboot your system into Windows XP to verify that the > =09installation is all happy. If it's not, you made a > =09mistake somewhere, and your will need to scratch the > =09disk and restart the process. > > 14)=09Shutdown and boot from your FreeBSD CDROM; you are > =09now ready to try installing FreeBSD. > > [ At this point, we note how dangerous it is to even try to > install FreeBSD at all, these days... 8-( ] > > [ Do your FreeBSD install thing ] > > 15)=09Boot Windows XP again, and add FreeBSD to the boot > =09menu. > > 16)=09Use the "Properties" to override the default *again* > =09and make the FAT32 and Windows XP partitions visible > =09to FreeBSD, if you want to be able to mount them > =09from FreeBSD at all. > > 17)=09Reboot again to test both Windows XP and FreeBSD > =09booting. If it works, you have dodged the bullet. > > Final recap: > > xi)=09Add FreeBSD to the boot menu > xii)=09Make sure you override the visibility defaults, so > =09FreeBSD can see the Windows XP and FAT32 disks; the > =09FAT32 disk is useful for transferring data between > =09the OSs. > > If you actually get this far without giving up, I have a > couple of "FreeBSD Daemon" igon artworks for the Boot Magic > menu I can give you. 8-). Compared to the rest of the > process, reverse engineering the icons so that they can be > replaced was a breeze. > > > Whee! Isn't installing FreeBSD fun and simple for anyone > who wants to set up a dual boot system so that they can > try it out for the first time?!? > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=20 <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 19:24:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69E1B37B417 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 40221 invoked by uid 100); 25 Jan 2002 03:24:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:24:02 -0600 To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Mike Meyer" , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") In-Reply-To: References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 4:23 PM -0600 2002/01/24, Mike Meyer wrote: > > So instead of causing a serious DoS by running /usr out of space, you > > cause a serious DoS by running /var out of space. That will shut down > > all the daemons that log to /var/log; anything trying to update things > > in /var/db, which is most of the databases; mail and the printers will > > quit working; and so on. > That's assuming that you don't have a separate /var/tmp > and/or a separate /var/log, which I always do. Moreover, IMO a full > /var is less dangerous than a full everything-but-the-root-filesystem > (including /var, /usr, and everything else). Instead of having one moderate-sized thing that will create havoc on your system if it runs out of space, you now have two smaller things that can separately run out of space and create havoc. In other words, you've just doubled your chances of something creating havoc. > In addition, with separate filesystems available for /var > (and various subdirectories under it), you can now mount them nosuid > and make them much, much less dangerous, and you should be able to > mount /usr read-only (assuming a separate /usr/local), which will > make it more difficult for people/skript k1dd13s/programs to take a > user-level security compromise and turn it into a root-level security > compromise. Actually, you don't need a separate /usr/local to mount /usr read-only. If you read my description carefully, you'll see that I do that. All you need is a fixed set of things in /usr/local. Mounting things with different permissions - or exporting them with different permissions - is a perfectly reasonable reason to put them in different partitions. > > Unless you've got user home directories on /usr, it's relatively > > static. Leaving /var on it just means you get that much more space to > > run out of before things break. > When programs run amok, they run amok fast enough that *no* > amount of disk space is likely to give you enough additional time to > notice what's going on and to fix it. I've blown disk space > partitions that were in the tens of GB as a result of programs > running amok, and if I hadn't segregated them onto separate > filesystems, the entire machine would have been hosed. Tell me, what didn't quit working that putting /var and / on the same fs would have made quit working? Or possibly these were user programs, and were segregated from the system file, which I do believe is a good thing? > > The same thing applies to /. So the > > end result of leaving /, /usr and /var on one file system - so long as > > users home directories aren't on it - is that /var has lots of free > > space. > Why not just put everything on a single filesystem and be > done with it? I mean, if you're going to be silly, we might as well > be really silly. Because, instead of blindly parroting advice that was correct 30 years ago when most Unix systems were large multi-user machines with much more fragile file systems, I actually thought about what I was doing. > No, there are very good reasons why we create separate > partitions for separate parts of the directory tree, and now that we > have individual disk drives that easily measure 100GB or more, there > should be no problem with having too much space in partition A and > not enough in partition B. Yes, there are good reasons to create separate partitions. Trying to protect system processes from other system processes is not one of them. Doing that just creates more things that can run out of space and hose the system. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 19:41:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B804C37B402 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-55-19.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.55.19]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0P3fGH01570; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:41:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C50D3DE.43C4F188@nobaloney.net> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:41:18 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat References: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> <02012207573506.08293@germanium> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Baldur Gislason wrote: > There is such a distribution, it's called Slackware (www.slackware.com). > It uses BSD fashioned binary packages, BSD style init scripts and the > installer installer is quite similiar to the FreeBSD one, also they've proven > to make a much higher quality distribution than most other Linux > distributions (They only include software that has proven itself, and they > seem to test things before releasing) Though I'm not sure, I think Slackware was the first "real" usable Linux distribution. I do know that the first Linux I ran, kernel v. 0.99 (I had one of the first webhosting companies, at the end of 1994), was a slackware distribution; I still have the CD-ROM. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 20:40:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04B637B400 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27087; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:40:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:40:17 -0700 To: chip , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Dual booting (Was: FreeBSD Installer) Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200201240622374.SM01304@there> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:21 AM 1/24/2002, chip wrote: >I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. I have a friend in New York City who told me that very thing two years ago. (He was learning UNIX at the time.) To this day, he has NEVER been able to set up a trouble-free system, and has wasted countless days struggling with his machines. Friends don't let friends dual-boot. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 24 23: 4:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB03637B417 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A38B375800D6; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:04:43 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Dual booting (Was: FreeBSD Installer) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:04:08 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201242304839.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 24 January 2002 08:40 pm, Brett Glass banged out on the keys: > At 07:21 AM 1/24/2002, chip wrote: > >I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. > > I have a friend in New York City who told me that very thing > two years ago. (He was learning UNIX at the time.) To this > day, he has NEVER been able to set up a trouble-free system, > and has wasted countless days struggling with his machines. > > Friends don't let friends dual-boot. > > --Brett After reading the post by Terry L. I changed my mind. He made it sound so= =20 fun, heh heh. I did do some laptops at work that dual-boot linux (redhat)= and=20 win2000. Those are special, single purpose units for occasional use only.= And=20 I really have lost the desire to install winblows of any version here at=20 home, I get enough pain and suffering at work, having to deal with it on = a=20 daily basis. Why put myself through that at home also? Maybe your last line would make a good bumper sticker? This has been an interesting thread. I find it sooo ... refreshing.... af= ter=20 all the MS BS 8 hours a day at work. :-) Regards, -- Chip <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 1:30:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551A937B404 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0P9ULp73925; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:30:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:30:21 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Brett Glass Cc: chip , Terry Lambert , David Schultz , Subject: Re: Dual booting (Was: FreeBSD Installer) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020125012049.D32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Brett Glass wrote: > I have a friend in New York City who told me that very thing > two years ago. (He was learning UNIX at the time.) To this > day, he has NEVER been able to set up a trouble-free system, > and has wasted countless days struggling with his machines. i think each system is *just* unique enough to create a new set of issues (such as a RAID card not working under one OS, that supported in the generic kernel of another). i have to say, i've rarely had to fight with most of the BSDs, while i've had all kinds of issues with Linux and Windows. on the other hand, i've had to fight with -CURRENT more often than i care to admit. > Friends don't let friends dual-boot. i tend to make dual-booting win2k and FreeBSD laptops. for desktops, i prefer to have single use machines (at work, i have a FreeBSD workstation, that's it). The laptops are rarely a fight, when it is one, it's normally something stupid like X or a graphical card. so far, -CURRENT is working like a charm on this laptop (Toshiba Satellite Pro 4600). No complaints, once X was working. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 2:46:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC6737B402 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0PAka529530; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:46:36 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:35:09 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: "Mike Meyer" , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:24 PM -0600 2002/01/24, Mike Meyer wrote: > Instead of having one moderate-sized thing that will create havoc on > your system if it runs out of space, you now have two smaller things > that can separately run out of space and create havoc. In other words, > you've just doubled your chances of something creating havoc. I disagree. There is no change in the probability of programs running amok, what I have done is to partition the types of amok-ness that can happen, and keep /var/tmp-filling amok-ness from interfering with programs that may need to write to /var/log, and to keep /var/log-filling amok-ness from interfering with programs that may need to write to /var/tmp. If anything, by putting them on separate filesystems, I think I've reduced the probability that the system will be seriously hosed if a program runs amok, and if a program does run amok the damage will be contained to a smaller portion of the directory structure. > Actually, you don't need a separate /usr/local to mount /usr > read-only. If you read my description carefully, you'll see that I do > that. All you need is a fixed set of things in /usr/local. True enough. And maybe once you've gotten systems stable into production with no further changes planned for a long time, you can do that. In my experience, things frequently change in /usr/local on the systems I've managed recently, and while /usr could be mounted read-only, it would not have been feasible to mount /usr/local as read-only. > Tell me, what didn't quit working that putting /var and / on the same > fs would have made quit working? Or possibly these were user programs, > and were segregated from the system file, which I do believe is a good > thing? I try to run everything I possibly can as an unprivileged user account, preferably in a chroot() jail. Logging output either goes to syslog, or is otherwise directed to a suitable place in the logging filesystem. Either way, the log filesystem filling up will only prevent other programs from writing to the log filesystem and not interfere with anything else. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 3:39:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A87BD37B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 44169 invoked by uid 100); 25 Jan 2002 11:39:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:39:18 -0600 To: Brad Knowles Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") In-Reply-To: References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 9:24 PM -0600 2002/01/24, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Instead of having one moderate-sized thing that will create havoc on > > your system if it runs out of space, you now have two smaller things > > that can separately run out of space and create havoc. In other words, > > you've just doubled your chances of something creating havoc. > I disagree. There is no change in the probability of > programs running amok, what I have done is to partition the types of > amok-ness that can happen, and keep /var/tmp-filling amok-ness from > interfering with programs that may need to write to /var/log, and to > keep /var/log-filling amok-ness from interfering with programs that > may need to write to /var/tmp. That's a different issue from keeping /var, /usr and / separate. I actually do that by linking /var/tmp to /tmp, and mounting /tmp. That solves all the problems of what to do about /tmp if it's symlinked to /usr/tmp (which doesn't exist on my systems). If I'm expecting core dumps, I symlink /var/crash to someplace that isn't on any of the file systems in question. > If anything, by putting them on separate filesystems, I think > I've reduced the probability that the system will be seriously hosed > if a program runs amok, and if a program does run amok the damage > will be contained to a smaller portion of the directory structure. All you've really bought over what I do is that /var/log is partitioned off from everything else. The only other thing on the server is the mail gateway, which is qmail. So I guess someone could mailbomb the server and cause various things to stop logging. But it's a gateway, so the mail hits the disk and is sent on, which means your DoS has to do it with one message. But as soon as qmail realized that it had run out of space, it would return a temporary error and free the space back up, so basically no harm is done. Likewise, if the log files ran things out of space, qmail just starts returning temporary failures, so once again, no harm is done. It seems like all those extra partitions aren't providing any extra protection - at least for the server I've got here. On the other hand, as the various things in that slowly creep up in size, I won't have to deal with it until the total space allocated is gone, whereas you'll have to deal with it as soon as any one of them runs out of space. > > Actually, you don't need a separate /usr/local to mount /usr > > read-only. If you read my description carefully, you'll see that I do > > that. All you need is a fixed set of things in /usr/local. > True enough. And maybe once you've gotten systems stable > into production with no further changes planned for a long time, you > can do that. In my experience, things frequently change in > /usr/local on the systems I've managed recently, and while /usr could > be mounted read-only, it would not have been feasible to mount > /usr/local as read-only. In my experience, that's true of workstations, but not servers. Then again, I make sure that data files that need to change on servers are configured to be outside of /usr/local, just to avoid that problem. > > > When programs run amok, they run amok fast enough that *no* > > > amount of disk space is likely to give you enough additional time to > > > notice what's going on and to fix it. I've blown disk space > > > partitions that were in the tens of GB as a result of programs > > > running amok, and if I hadn't segregated them onto separate > > > filesystems, the entire machine would have been hosed. > > Tell me, what didn't quit working that putting /var and / on the same > > fs would have made quit working? Or possibly these were user programs, > > and were segregated from the system file, which I do believe is a good > > thing? > I try to run everything I possibly can as an unprivileged > user account, preferably in a chroot() jail. Logging output either > goes to syslog, or is otherwise directed to a suitable place in the > logging filesystem. Either way, the log filesystem filling up will > only prevent other programs from writing to the log filesystem and > not interfere with anything else. So what does this have to do with the case where you've blown 10s of GB vs. / and /var being on different file systems? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 5:12:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nic.upatras.gr (nic.upatras.gr [150.140.129.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9634937B404 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17843 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2002 13:09:33 -0000 Received: from dialup3-ceid-dialinpool-13.upatras.gr (HELO hades.hell.gr) (root@150.140.128.205) by nic.upatras.gr with SMTP; 25 Jan 2002 13:09:33 -0000 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0PDCeu07419; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:12:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:12:38 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jeff Lasman Cc: Baldur Gislason , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020125131238.GA7374@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> <02012207573506.08293@germanium> <3C50D3DE.43C4F188@nobaloney.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C50D3DE.43C4F188@nobaloney.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-01-24 19:41:18, Jeff Lasman wrote: > Though I'm not sure, I think Slackware was the first "real" usable Linux > distribution. I do know that the first Linux I ran, kernel v. 0.99 (I > had one of the first webhosting companies, at the end of 1994), was a > slackware distribution; I still have the CD-ROM. It was Yggdrasil Linux. I had seen Yggdrasil a little before stumbling upon the first Slackware disk sets. (Oops! I told everyone in a public list how long I'd been using Linux before starting with BSD.) -- Giorgos Keramidas . . . . . . . . . keramida@{ceid.upatras.gr,freebsd.org} FreeBSD Documentation Project . . . http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ FreeBSD: The power to serve . . . . http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 5:17:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nic.upatras.gr (nic.upatras.gr [150.140.129.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C376D37B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18197 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2002 13:13:55 -0000 Received: from dialup3-ceid-dialinpool-13.upatras.gr (HELO hades.hell.gr) (root@150.140.128.205) by nic.upatras.gr with SMTP; 25 Jan 2002 13:13:55 -0000 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0PDH1H07448; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:17:01 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:16:59 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: chip , Terry Lambert , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual booting (Was: FreeBSD Installer) Message-ID: <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-01-24 21:40:17, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:21 AM 1/24/2002, chip wrote: > > >I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. > > I have a friend in New York City who told me that very thing > two years ago. (He was learning UNIX at the time.) To this > day, he has NEVER been able to set up a trouble-free system, > and has wasted countless days struggling with his machines. > > Friends don't let friends dual-boot. True, I don't let my friends dual boot. The best argument I've come up with so far is: "There is no way you'll spend the time figuring out why you can't connect to your PPP dialup server, if you have the option of rebooting and working on that other OS. Humans are weak, at the first difficulty you'll throw it all away, and run back to your current pet OS." -- Giorgos Keramidas . . . . . . . . . keramida@{ceid.upatras.gr,freebsd.org} FreeBSD Documentation Project . . . http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ FreeBSD: The power to serve . . . . http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 6: 7:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AB837B416 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 41028239A05; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:07:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:07:22 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat Message-ID: <20020125140722.GT5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20020122043807.91826.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> <02012207573506.08293@germanium> <3C50D3DE.43C4F188@nobaloney.net> <20020125131238.GA7374@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OtP8TOIcu2/MSuWQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020125131238.GA7374@hades.hell.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --OtP8TOIcu2/MSuWQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-01-25 15:12 +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wro= te: > On 2002-01-24 19:41:18, Jeff Lasman wrote: > > Though I'm not sure, I think Slackware was the first "real" usable Linux > > distribution. I do know that the first Linux I ran, kernel v. 0.99 (I > > had one of the first webhosting companies, at the end of 1994), was a > > slackware distribution; I still have the CD-ROM. >=20 > It was Yggdrasil Linux. I had seen Yggdrasil a little before > stumbling upon the first Slackware disk sets. (Oops! I told everyone > in a public list how long I'd been using Linux before starting with BSD.) I made my own Slackware disk sets. Floppy disk sets, stacks of them. Guess who doesn't miss those days. Greg, raising (waving!) his hand --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Heisenberg might have been here. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org=20 http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --OtP8TOIcu2/MSuWQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8UWaaIBUx1YRd/t0RAggsAJ4+l1KIt3F6EAgMezravgmRHuWJEACcDR5/ fxhSKyhEZOQ1/Mx1rbobmyE= =z3z3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OtP8TOIcu2/MSuWQ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 6:51:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7965A37B404 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0PEp6513967; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:51:06 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:46:07 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:39 AM -0600 2002/01/25, Mike Meyer wrote: > That's a different issue from keeping /var, /usr and / separate. I > actually do that by linking /var/tmp to /tmp, and mounting /tmp. That > solves all the problems of what to do about /tmp if it's symlinked to > /usr/tmp (which doesn't exist on my systems). That's another way to solve the problem, if you're willing to intermingle /var/tmp and /tmp. I prefer to keep them separate, with the option of making /tmp a small mfs, so that it's wicked-fast in addition to everything else. > It seems like all those extra partitions aren't providing any extra > protection - at least for the server I've got here. Indeed, my methods may not help you much with the system you have. It all depends on what is happening on the machine and how the various filesystems are being used. For machines that log a whole lot of data (mail systems with logging turned up to high levels for accounting or accountability reasons, web servers, etc...), I believe that things like this may be more important. > On the other hand, > as the various things in that slowly creep up in size, I won't have to > deal with it until the total space allocated is gone, whereas you'll > have to deal with it as soon as any one of them runs out of space. I usually install log file management tools that centralize all the log data from various machines onto a separate server, and very little (if any) log data is ever kept locally. I used to use syslog for this, until we discovered that we were losing something like 75% of all data being sent to syslog (since it's based on a UDP protocol), and yet still getting multiple gigabytes of log data that were produced on a daily basis. If syslog is used, I now prefer to syslog locally and then use other methods to periodically rotate the log file and move the old ones to a separate machine. > In my experience, that's true of workstations, but not servers. Then > again, I make sure that data files that need to change on servers are > configured to be outside of /usr/local, just to avoid that problem. I've seen this on the servers that I administered at AOL (as the Senior Internet Mail Systems Administrator, I was responsible for creating schemes that would work across all our hundred-plus servers), and I've seen this on pretty much every server I've ever installed or administered since then. Indeed, I've seen this kind of behaviour throughout the twelve-plus years that I've been doing Unix systems administration. The basic stuff in /usr doesn't change too much, but if you're keeping up with updates to packages that are under constant development, or if you're keeping up with the latest security holes & patches, I simply don't see any alternative -- if it's not in /usr/local, then it's someplace else and poses an equal problem/risk. > So what does this have to do with the case where you've blown 10s of > GB vs. / and /var being on different file systems? Well, since user-level programs can't write into the reserved disk space allocation (used to be ~10%, but I don't think that this really makes much sense with modern 100GB+ high-capacity disks, etc...), it doesn't completely and totally blow you out of disk space if they fill up what space they are allowed to write in. Since /var/log is a separate filesystem, having it fill up doesn't affect any programs that depend on use of /var/tmp (like vi, or any other system program that might need to create temporary files during operation). I also separate off the major applications into their own filesystems, too. So, the /var/spool/mail and /var/spool/mqueue on mail servers are separate filesystems (even separate from each other, so that mailboxes overflowing on /var/spool/mail doesn't prevent you from accepting and routing mail through /var/spool/mqueue and vice-versa), web servers get their own separate filesystem, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 9: 6:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B38937B416 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D694818F5; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C397418F3; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:06:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat In-Reply-To: <20020125131238.GA7374@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Though I'm not sure, I think Slackware was the first "real" usable Linux > > distribution. I do know that the first Linux I ran, kernel v. 0.99 (I > > had one of the first webhosting companies, at the end of 1994), was a > > slackware distribution; I still have the CD-ROM. > > It was Yggdrasil Linux. I had seen Yggdrasil a little before > stumbling upon the first Slackware disk sets. (Oops! I told everyone > in a public list how long I'd been using Linux before starting with BSD.) I had a copy of that... it's what turned me off of Linux in the first place. Never could get it to install. :( Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 9:19:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.com (mailout05.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262A937B402 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd04.sul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16UA0I-00032s-0E; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:19:06 +0100 Received: from pc5.abc (520067998749-0001@[217.233.121.226]) by fmrl04.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 16UA0D-10x6BsC; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:19:01 +0100 Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.abc (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0PHJ0805853 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:19:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from list@rachinsky.de) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:19:00 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Message-ID: <20020125171900.GA5140@pc5.abc> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020124183253.GB73895@pc5.abc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-Sender: 520067998749-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:22:48AM +0100, * Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:32 PM +0100 2002/01/24, Nicolas Rachinsky wrote: > > > You can create a /usr/tmp directory residing on the / filesystem, > > can't you? > > You could, but my experience is that this is how extremely > large amounts of disk space can go quietly missing, without anyone > ever managing to figure out where it went. Been there, done that. OK, you're right, but I didn't encounter this problem, and I think my /data/tmp on the / filesystem is still empty. Nicolas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 13:25:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0781937B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0218.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.218] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UDqS-0002x4-00; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:25:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:25:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Brett Glass , chip , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-01-24 21:40:17, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:21 AM 1/24/2002, chip wrote: > > >I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. > > Friends don't let friends dual-boot. > > True, I don't let my friends dual boot. Of course, this ignores the fact that most people *must* use Windows for certain tasks, because the software for those tasks is simply *nonexistant* in FreeBSD. My own recent dual-boot setups were because it was either that, or purchase two more Windows XP systems when I had need of standard clients, that I expected customers to be using, to test against the software I'm in the process of developing. I think the most common case of a new FreeBSD user is one who is going to "try out FreeBSD" with some of the free space on their (probably new) computer. For this to work out in FreeBSDs favor, the fear-factor has to be removed, which is that you can undo the FreeBSD installation once it has been done, and that you won't trash your Windows XP (or other Windows) system. The problem with this process right now is that the reason for fear is very real. As my experience demonstrated, though, it's very real no matter what OS you are going to try to install to "try out". Nevertheless, we can expect that any reduction in the rate of "try out" is going to reduce FreeBSD adoption by new users, proportional to its current market share. This is a real concern. It's really tempting to call Microsoft on some of thier recent engineering to lock people into a Windows world, particularly since the Tunney comment period on the settlement is still open. But that coses on Monday, and I rather think that a well-thought-out argument would take more effort than most peope think it's worth. 8-(. Requiring Windows XP to include a repartitioning facility; they already have the defragger code, and the partitioning code (the former is there in the disk properties, the latter in the installation) to take the fear out of it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 13:53:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDAA37B404 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0218.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.218] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UEHT-0004U5-00; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C51D3BF.FB72A84C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:53:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is a fundamental problem with /var. Having /var/run and /var/log on the same partition means that if your log files fill up, you will be unable to start some programs. Having /var/log on the same parititon as TMPDIR (for whatever program, and by whatever means... e.g. environment, sendmail.cf, or a symbolic link of /tmp to /var/tmp, etc.) means that if you fill up your log files, then you fill up your /tmp directory. For email, this means no more email received, and other programs have similar bad behaviour. Historically, I have seen this very often with programs that rely on these resources; sendmail has been a particular problem, though not because of any fault on its part: it's just that email is about the most visible service failure you can have with any server, no matter what else you run on it. My particular problems (in a commercial product, which sold, or leased, tens of thousands of units) was that "newsyslog" would not recreate history when it failed and then was rerun, and "samba" log files are hard to rotate using the standard means. Specifically, if cron dies (common, particularly if your password file is read-only, due to an infrequent VM bug having to do with copy-on-write of modified read-only pages from the mmap of the passwd.db files, since "cron" rewrites the password entry from getpwent(3) in place, making it dirty, by its assumption that the pointers point to a static buffer in libc, not a memory mapped region in a read-only file), then newsyslog stops being run by cron. When that happens, log files become huge, and then when newsyslog is restarted, it only "rolls the files over" by one -- leaving the huge accumulated log files as the one-behind ...and incidently, leaving /var/log *still full*. In any case, the point of this is to note that, no matter how you slice it, there is going to be a monster in the closet, waiting for your mother to turn out the light and close the door. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 14:21:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED1237B402 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020125222137.FYCD7924.femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:21:37 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020125170720.01922970@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:14:42 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 PM 1/25/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >Requiring Windows XP to include a repartitioning facility; >they already have the defragger code, and the partitioning >code (the former is there in the disk properties, the latter >in the installation) to take the fear out of it. Then you'd have companies like PowerQuest crying foul when they couldn't sell you Partition Magic 7.0 for $70 a pop. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 14:26: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C287937B404 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0PMQ2K06331 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:26:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00711 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:26:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C51DB47.90916D43@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:25:11 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: remote power on/off switches? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, kinda unrelated to FreeBSD.. actually, really unrelated.. :( Does anyone know of a device that you can either call or access via network to power cycle a machine? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson anderson@centtech.com Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 14:33: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA8637B417 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0PMWEg70949; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:32:13 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:25:07PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > I think the most common case of a new FreeBSD user is one > who is going to "try out FreeBSD" with some of the free > space on their (probably new) computer. For this to work > out in FreeBSDs favor, the fear-factor has to be removed, > which is that you can undo the FreeBSD installation once > it has been done, and that you won't trash your Windows XP > (or other Windows) system. I don't know if it's a question of fear as much as patience. I think most newcomers are clueful enough to deal with partitions and the idiosyncracies of the installer's UI, but if anything goes wrong, they'll just give up and try something else. That's what I did years ago the first time I tried to install FreeBSD, and I only came back about a year ago. The present installer has a fairly high success rate, at least in my experience. That could be improved upon by taking out things that don't belong there, like package installation, networking services, and X configuration. Once people get FreeBSD up and running, they're more likely to stick with it and deal with those things. Granted, there are also a lot of newcomers who *aren't* clueful enough to deal with partitions, or who don't have Partition Magic and would need to resize a Windows partition. Making the installation work for them is a far more ambitious goal, which requires a free utility that works like Partition Magic (only better). Such a thing wouldn't even have to come from the FreeBSD project as long as it had a suitably free license. It's too bad nothing like that exists. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 14:34: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B0037B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g0PMV9319196; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:31:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:31:09 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: remote power on/off switches? Message-ID: <20020125143109.A18949@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3C51DB47.90916D43@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C51DB47.90916D43@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 04:25:11PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 04:25:11PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Ok, kinda unrelated to FreeBSD.. actually, really unrelated.. :( Does > anyone know of a device that you can either call or access via network > to power cycle a machine? Baytech (www.baytech.net) makes a number of devices that do this. We're using RPC-4s in the cluster we're building. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8UdysXY6L6fI4GtQRAvxEAKCWarfyMcJ6QJdPU8VSo4MhPnd9OgCgvhje /y3o9RHKPybox7nWR+ixCAE= =FU/a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 14:46:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C279037B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:46:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0218.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.218] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UF6j-0000Rn-00; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:46:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3C51E02A.14291AE5@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:46:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20020125170720.01922970@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > At 04:25 PM 1/25/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Requiring Windows XP to include a repartitioning facility; > >they already have the defragger code, and the partitioning > >code (the former is there in the disk properties, the latter > >in the installation) to take the fear out of it. > > Then you'd have companies like PowerQuest crying foul when they couldn't > sell you Partition Magic 7.0 for $70 a pop. Not if they licensed it for every copy of Windows sold... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 15: 7: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nic.upatras.gr (nic.upatras.gr [150.140.129.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9349037B404 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3867 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2002 23:03:41 -0000 Received: from dialup3-ceid-dialinpool-3.upatras.gr (HELO hades.hell.gr) (root@150.140.128.195) by nic.upatras.gr with SMTP; 25 Jan 2002 23:03:41 -0000 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0PN4tK12629; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:04:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:04:55 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020125230455.GA12434@hades.hell.gr> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-01-25 13:25:07, Terry Lambert wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > True, I don't let my friends dual boot. > > Of course, this ignores the fact that most people *must* use > Windows for certain tasks, because the software for those > tasks is simply *nonexistant* in FreeBSD. Ah, my fault Terry. I have -STABLE installed on a spare disk, and I give that disk away for the `trial period' duration. To those who borrow it go the words of my previous message. They usually take the normal disks of their systems out, and boot my -STABLE installation. Log in as 'guest', password 'guest', and fool around with the machine all they want. Since I only have one spare disk, this can be done only by one person at a time, which I regret at times. But anyway, I'm way OT now... -- Giorgos Keramidas . . . . . . . . . keramida@{ceid.upatras.gr,freebsd.org} FreeBSD Documentation Project . . . http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ FreeBSD: The power to serve . . . . http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 15:20:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D5B37B41D for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0218.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.218] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UFco-00058a-00; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:19:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:19:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > > I think the most common case of a new FreeBSD user is one > > who is going to "try out FreeBSD" with some of the free > > space on their (probably new) computer. For this to work > > out in FreeBSDs favor, the fear-factor has to be removed, > > which is that you can undo the FreeBSD installation once > > it has been done, and that you won't trash your Windows XP > > (or other Windows) system. > > I don't know if it's a question of fear as much as patience. I think > most newcomers are clueful enough to deal with partitions and the FWIW: I had to reinstall Windows XP 3 times, and I nearly didn't make it the first time, just to get a new eMachine into a state where it was even possible to begin installing FreeBSD. For one of the iterations, I had installed FreeBSD before I knew there was a Windows XP problem, and by the time I found out after the install it was too late, and the XP "recovery CDROM" I was forced to use zapped the disk back to "Windows only" again. So basically, I bought a machine with XP installed, and ended up installing XP 3 times and FreeBSD twice just to get around the partiitioning issues. > idiosyncracies of the installer's UI, but if anything goes wrong, > they'll just give up and try something else. That's what I did years > ago the first time I tried to install FreeBSD, and I only came back > about a year ago. Yes. I ended up installing FreeBSD a total of 3 times, since my last "successful" install after getting around the partitioning issues landed me in the FreeBSD installer and disklabel issues. > The present installer has a fairly high success rate, at least in my > experience. People keep saying this, but when you press them, they cop to not being first time users, or installing "FreeBSD only" systems, which is incredibly non-representative of the target audience for the installer. If you're honest, then if you already have a FreeBSD box installed, you could just maount up another disk on it, disklabel it, and install that way, instead. The install stuff on the CDROM is for new users. > That could be improved upon by taking out things that > don't belong there, like package installation, networking services, > and X configuration. Once people get FreeBSD up and running, they're > more likely to stick with it and deal with those things. It complicates things, but the way that it complicates them is more a result of the tasks being disjoint and difficult, than it is of one of inherent complexity. Finding the mouse is really very easy, and providing the keyboard navigation to make it work in the cases its not is a design issue. The mouse probing code in Windows is actually shipped with the device driver sample code in Visual C++, so it's not like it's really hard to do what Windows does. The X is a little harder. I'd mostly blame it on FreeBSD not adopting the GGI code that was offered it under BSD license by the GGI folks. At a bare minimum, sans the ability to probe the card entirely, it's possible to get 1024x768 graphics out of the cards with just GGI, and a tiny bit of probing makes that even better. The whole "what monitor do you have and what frequencies does it support" crap of tunneling information through a loss human data link (not to mention card selection, which is something that should come from post processing the PCI IDs from the boot code). > Granted, there are also a lot of newcomers who *aren't* clueful enough > to deal with partitions, or who don't have Partition Magic and would > need to resize a Windows partition. Making the installation work for > them is a far more ambitious goal, which requires a free utility that > works like Partition Magic (only better). Such a thing wouldn't even > have to come from the FreeBSD project as long as it had a suitably > free license. It's too bad nothing like that exists. There is GNU tool: http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/ This is close to what you'd need, but it can't resize or create XP partitions. This is mostly an NTFS issue, that has to do with writing the code. It's actually fairly easy to do this right, but the reason it is not supported in the tool (and in the FreeBSD NTFS being able to write, for that matter), is lack of sufficient commitment, and a willingness to change some of the basic interfaces, in order to *make* it work. The Power Quest people (the authors of Partition Magic) were able to reverse engineer this without a lot of effort; technically, you don't even have to handle the incremental write stuff, if all you want to do is resize it, and the move is relative to the start address, so moving an NTFS partition is a no-brainer. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 15:21:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACE237B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07445; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:18:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020125161340.00b226c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:17:50 -0700 To: anderson@centtech.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: remote power on/off switches? In-Reply-To: <3C51DB47.90916D43@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:25 PM 1/25/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: >Ok, kinda unrelated to FreeBSD.. actually, really unrelated.. :( Does anyone >know of a device that you can either call or access via network to power cycle a >machine? http://www.servertech.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 15:26:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3FC5137B429 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 49464 invoked by uid 100); 25 Jan 2002 23:26:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15441.59810.814354.950502@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:26:26 -0600 To: Brad Knowles Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") In-Reply-To: References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 5:39 AM -0600 2002/01/25, Mike Meyer wrote: > Indeed, my methods may not help you much with the system you > have. It all depends on what is happening on the machine and how the > various filesystems are being used. For machines that log a whole > lot of data (mail systems with logging turned up to high levels for > accounting or accountability reasons, web servers, etc...), I believe > that things like this may be more important. I agree about that - if you're going to be logging lots of data, you probably want to segregate that from everything else. For a mail server - as opposed to a mail gateway - you probably want the mail queue segregated. That's the real point - you need to think about what the system will be used for. Blindly partitioning the disk into umpteen file systems is no better than blindly putting everything in one big file system. The world has changed so much since the original BSD layouts were designed that they are pretty much irrelevant. So I start with everything on one file system, then figure out what needs to be split from it, and why. > I usually install log file management tools that centralize > all the log data from various machines onto a separate server, and > very little (if any) log data is ever kept locally. > I used to use syslog for this, until we discovered that we > were losing something like 75% of all data being sent to syslog Did you look into any of the alternative solutions? In particular, Dan Berenstein - the author of qmail - has one designed to solve that problem. I haven't checked on it, but that 75% figure make me think I ought to. > > In my experience, that's true of workstations, but not servers. Then > > again, I make sure that data files that need to change on servers are > > configured to be outside of /usr/local, just to avoid that problem. > The basic stuff in /usr doesn't change too much, but if > you're keeping up with updates to packages that are under constant > development, or if you're keeping up with the latest security holes & > patches, I simply don't see any alternative -- if it's not in > /usr/local, then it's someplace else and poses an equal problem/risk. I would expect that the same logic would apply to what's on /usr. Of course, if you're not trying to keep up with updates to it, and only tracking security fixes, it stays stable. Again, the same is true of the stuff I put in /usr/local. I tend to leave it alone unless the client specifically asks for an update, or I'm fixing a security hole. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 15:52:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4820137B416; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0218.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.218] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UG9C-0001q8-00; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:52:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3C51EFC6.B1FEEE1E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:52:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125230455.GA12434@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Ah, my fault Terry. I have -STABLE installed on a spare disk, and I > give that disk away for the `trial period' duration. To those who > borrow it go the words of my previous message. They usually take the > normal disks of their systems out, and boot my -STABLE installation. > Log in as 'guest', password 'guest', and fool around with the machine > all they want. Makes sense, if you are relying on "word of mouth" or "grass roots" to spread the word about FreeBSD. It would be really nice, though, if there were a button on the FreeBSD web site that said "Test drive FreeBSD NOW!", that did everything automatically, without warranty voiding disk-ectomies. The disk lending approach also doesn't work incredibly well on laptops, unfortunately. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 15:59:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FFD37B416 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.14] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0PNxL801657; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:59:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15441.59810.814354.950502@guru.mired.org> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <15441.59810.814354.950502@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:59:36 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:26 PM -0600 2002/01/25, Mike Meyer wrote: > I agree about that - if you're going to be logging lots of data, you > probably want to segregate that from everything else. For a mail > server - as opposed to a mail gateway - you probably want the mail > queue segregated. I submit that for any machine whose primary job involves handling mail, you want at least /var/spool/mqueue on a separate filesystem, and if it also serves mailboxes to users (either local or remote via protocols like POP3 and/or IMAP), then you almost certainly want /var/spool/mail (or wherever the message store is located) on a separate filesystem. In these same types of situations, I believe that high levels of logging are required in order to meet the accountability requirements that were originally written into RFC 1123, and in these situations I believe that you will want a separate filesystem for /var/log. > That's the real point - you need to think about what the system will > be used for. Blindly partitioning the disk into umpteen file systems > is no better than blindly putting everything in one big file system. I'll agree that you should think about what the system will be doing and configure the machine accordingly, but in my experience, there are certain additional file systems that I have found that have always been useful to create. > Did you look into any of the alternative solutions? In particular, Dan > Berenstein - the author of qmail - has one designed to solve that > problem. I haven't checked on it, but that 75% figure make me think I > ought to. There are now a number of different replacements for syslog, some of which use or allow you to use TCP instead of UDP. At the time we had this particular problem, there were no replacements that we knew of for syslog (and we looked for them). We even took the original syslog code (from Eric) and seriously looked at hacking it ourselves to add support for TCP, although we didn't end up going this way. These days, I would look at syslog-ng, or maybe ssyslog. However, I would also consider simply logging things locally and then rotate the logs periodically and moving the files separately. Regardless of whether it uses TCP or UDP, syslog can still cause a heavy load on a system, especially if it is used across a network. Oh, and I wouldn't touch anything from Dan with an infinitely long pole. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 19: 7:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD9E37B402 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0Q31rF71918; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:01:53 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:19:09PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > > The present installer has a fairly high success rate, at least in my > > experience. > > People keep saying this, but when you press them, they cop to > not being first time users, or installing "FreeBSD only" > systems, which is incredibly non-representative of the > target audience for the installer. FreeBSD was certainly not the first OS I've installed in a dual-boot environment, but I don't consider myself an expert, either. Let me define `success' as ``It installs on the first try, without serious fiddling.'' Admittedly, it's sometimes been a pain in the neck. I had an old Compaq whose BIOS didn't understand disks as large as the one I was trying to install FreeBSD on. Worse, the BIOS setup had to be on a special partition on the disk, so if you tried something the BIOS didn't like, you'd have to boot from floppy and re-image the drive. But you're right to call the target audience non-representative. All of my installs have been for myself and friends I've tried to convert. All of them have been i386 boxen ranging from 486s to Pentium 3s. Most of them have CD-ROMs and IDE disks, and few of them have network cards. Wait a minute, I think I've just described the hardware of most people who need a helpful installer. ;-) > If you're honest, then if you already have a FreeBSD box > installed, you could just maount up another disk on it, > disklabel it, and install that way, instead. The install > stuff on the CDROM is for new users. That's almost never practical for me. I can't tell people ``Give me your hard drive, and I'll give it back to you in a few days with FreeBSD on it.'' Even on my own hardware, a CDROM is more practical. But yes, the stuff on the CDROM is also for new users. Many people installing FreeBSD for the first time can get the OS installed, given a decent partition editor, but they don't necessarily understand disk geometry, or what to do if the installer can't find the CD-ROM. Sure, it would be nice if the installer could resize partitions and do everything for you, but that seems a long way off. Effort might be better spent trying to get it to work right in situations such as the one you recently experienced, under the assumption that the user has left sufficient space for another OS. Or is it the case that XP greedily gobbles up the entire disk? I (thankfully) haven't tried it yet, but that sounds like a M$ thing to do. > It complicates things, but the way that it complicates them > is more a result of the tasks being disjoint and difficult, > than it is of one of inherent complexity. > > Finding the mouse is really very easy, and providing the > keyboard navigation to make it work in the cases its not > is a design issue. The mouse probing code in Windows is > actually shipped with the device driver sample code in > Visual C++, so it's not like it's really hard to do what > Windows does. If all of the extra things the installer does were failproof, then this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Nonetheless, installation and configuration ought to be separate. The installer need only copy the files for the base distribution, and perhaps allow the user to set the initial root password. Everything else can be dealt with after booting the newly-installed OS. > This is close to what you'd need, but it can't resize or > create XP partitions. This is mostly an NTFS issue, that > has to do with writing the code. > > It's actually fairly easy to do this right Great! When will you have it done? :P To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 19:27:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F62D37B416 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id C24B6FC2; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:27:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:27:42 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Message-ID: <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:46:07PM +0100 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:46:07PM +0100 I heard the voice of Brad Knowles, and lo! it spake thus: > > Well, since user-level programs can't write into the reserved > disk space allocation (used to be ~10%, but I don't think that this > really makes much sense with modern 100GB+ high-capacity disks, Why doesn't it make sense? The space allocation isn't intended to 'keep user-level program from filling up the disk', it's intended to allow the fragmentation-avoidance to work. Size doesn't matter; percentage does. I've heard somewhere (from Terry, I think) that 15% is the 'optimal' setting for this, and 10% was a compromise that wasn't too far below optimal, but gave that 5% of extra available space. 8% is the current default in newfs(8). -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 21: 8:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11905.mail.yahoo.com (web11905.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ACAD237B402 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:08:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020126050830.9750.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.249.99.5] by web11905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:08:30 PST Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:08:30 -0800 (PST) From: NGH Subject: Re: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Rick Hamell wrote: > > It was Yggdrasil Linux. I had seen Yggdrasil a little before > > stumbling upon the first Slackware disk sets. > I had a copy of that... it's what turned me off of Linux in the > first place. Never could get it to install. :( Heh heh... You got a lot farther with Yggdrasil than I ever did. I got that distro and their 2 CD Toolkit at some trade show... I think it was 4 CDs in all. For lack of an "extra" computer, I never bothered to put them in a CD-ROM drive, let alone try to install them. In other words, Yggdrasil worked just fine for me! :) Years later, I picked up several Linux distros, but never used them much, except as desktop "toys"... Oh well. -NGH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 22:48: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBB937B400 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g0Q6lu863584; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 07:47:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 07:47:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dual-boot configurations are really not necessary today. Even the cheapest second-hand PC will run FreeBSD quite nicely, so there isn't any reason not to run it on a separate, dedicated machine. If you need both Windows and FreeBSD, just use one machine for each. Additionally, no production system can be a dual-boot system, since production systems by nature are up 24 hours a day. I've never run multiple-boot configurations on any machine. Nowadays there is no significant cost advantage, and it's a real pain to stop the system and reboot each time you want to use one system or the other, and getting both systems configured to boot on a single hardware configuration can be problematic. Additionally, I prefer that the FreeBSD machine be _pure_ FreeBSD, and that the Windows machine be _pure_ Windows. Finally, when you have two machines running simultaneously, you can use both operating systems as intended: Windows for the desktop, and FreeBSD as your server. My FreeBSD system handles e-mail, prototyping of my Web site, DNS, and so on, for example. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Lambert" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Brett Glass" ; "chip" ; "David Schultz" ; "f.johan.beisser" ; Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 22:25 Subject: Why dual boot? > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2002-01-24 21:40:17, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 07:21 AM 1/24/2002, chip wrote: > > > >I think I'll do a dual-boot setup just for the experience. > > > Friends don't let friends dual-boot. > > > > True, I don't let my friends dual boot. > > Of course, this ignores the fact that most people *must* use > Windows for certain tasks, because the software for those > tasks is simply *nonexistant* in FreeBSD. > > My own recent dual-boot setups were because it was either > that, or purchase two more Windows XP systems when I had > need of standard clients, that I expected customers to be > using, to test against the software I'm in the process of > developing. > > I think the most common case of a new FreeBSD user is one > who is going to "try out FreeBSD" with some of the free > space on their (probably new) computer. For this to work > out in FreeBSDs favor, the fear-factor has to be removed, > which is that you can undo the FreeBSD installation once > it has been done, and that you won't trash your Windows XP > (or other Windows) system. > > The problem with this process right now is that the reason > for fear is very real. As my experience demonstrated, > though, it's very real no matter what OS you are going to > try to install to "try out". Nevertheless, we can expect > that any reduction in the rate of "try out" is going to > reduce FreeBSD adoption by new users, proportional to its > current market share. > > This is a real concern. > > It's really tempting to call Microsoft on some of thier > recent engineering to lock people into a Windows world, > particularly since the Tunney comment period on the > settlement is still open. But that coses on Monday, and > I rather think that a well-thought-out argument would take > more effort than most peope think it's worth. 8-(. > > Requiring Windows XP to include a repartitioning facility; > they already have the defragger code, and the partitioning > code (the former is there in the disk properties, the latter > in the installation) to take the fear out of it. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 25 23:52:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5CB37B402 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0Q7qSl78772; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:52:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:52:28 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20020125234453.R32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Dual-boot configurations are really not necessary today. Even the cheapest > second-hand PC will run FreeBSD quite nicely, so there isn't any reason not > to run it on a separate, dedicated machine. If you need both Windows and > FreeBSD, just use one machine for each. this is not always very convienent. i have ONE dual booting machine, my laptop. this also happens to be one of two machines that runs win2k. > Additionally, no production system can be a dual-boot system, since > production systems by nature are up 24 hours a day. i don't think anyone has disputed this. production systems are, by nature, single OS/single purpose machines (that's my own choice, and my own philosphy.. it makes locking a machine down easier..). > I've never run multiple-boot configurations on any machine. Nowadays there > is no significant cost advantage, and it's a real pain to stop the system > and reboot each time you want to use one system or the other, and getting > both systems configured to boot on a single hardware configuration can be > problematic. Additionally, I prefer that the FreeBSD machine be _pure_ > FreeBSD, and that the Windows machine be _pure_ Windows. Finally, when you > have two machines running simultaneously, you can use both operating systems > as intended: Windows for the desktop, and FreeBSD as your server. My > FreeBSD system handles e-mail, prototyping of my Web site, DNS, and so on, > for example. so.. what about a dual booting laptop? -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 0:32:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DDD37B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0Q8YVe77556; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:34:31 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anthony Atkielski , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@atkielski.com on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 07:47:55AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Anthony Atkielski : > Dual-boot configurations are really not necessary today. Even the cheapest > second-hand PC will run FreeBSD quite nicely, so there isn't any reason not > to run it on a separate, dedicated machine. If you need both Windows and > FreeBSD, just use one machine for each. For the server market, that makes sense. For the desktop market, it's a different story. I need Windows about every other week, and occasionally more. That hardly justifies the purchase of a box that can run Photoshop, or switching FreeBSD to a box that's half as fast. Besides, if you have to buy hundreds of dollars of hardware to run FreeBSD, then it's hardly free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 0:32:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7165B37B41B for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UOGO-00053w-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:32:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:32:35 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Sure, > it would be nice if the installer could resize partitions and do > everything for you, but that seems a long way off. Effort might be > better spent trying to get it to work right in situations such as the > one you recently experienced, under the assumption that the user has > left sufficient space for another OS. Or is it the case that XP > greedily gobbles up the entire disk? I (thankfully) haven't tried it > yet, but that sounds like a M$ thing to do. The vendor sets up the Windows XP preinstalled on the system. The preinstall uses all the disk space, because there's no reason not to with the XP FS (NTFS). The "rescue" disk uses "Norton Ghost" to overwrite the entire drive with a new image that has XP installed this way. The reason for "Norton Ghost" is that there are not really any tools other than Windows or Microsoft that can do the writes to an NTFS, so they write the raw disk instead of the FS. If you're interested: the !@#$@%! "Norton Ghost" just writes the disk, without writing the partition table, unless the partition table isn't there already. > If all of the extra things the installer does were failproof, then > this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Nonetheless, installation and > configuration ought to be separate. The installer need only copy the > files for the base distribution, and perhaps allow the user to set the > initial root password. Everything else can be dealt with after > booting the newly-installed OS. Windows deals with this by having a "RunServicesOnce" registry key, which FreeBSD doesn't have. It also has video drivers that work with the minimum configuration for the video hardware you have, using the BIOS to set the video modes so as to avoid having to screw around with monitor and other settings (it just works). Then Windows boots to a "single user who is assumed to be logged in" mode, and doesn't require authentication unless you tell it to, and recovers with timers from other than default screen settings that don't work. Say what you will about them, but they know how to do productization of code. > > This is close to what you'd need, but it can't resize or > > create XP partitions. This is mostly an NTFS issue, that > > has to do with writing the code. > > > > It's actually fairly easy to do this right > > Great! When will you have it done? :P Dunno; when will FreeBSD do VOP_ABORTOP correctly so that an in progress log operation can be aborted? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 0:47:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F5D37B404 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UOUW-00049r-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:47:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3C526D0F.A27A59E7@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:47:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Brad Knowles , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > The space allocation isn't intended to 'keep user-level program from > filling up the disk', it's intended to allow the fragmentation-avoidance > to work. Size doesn't matter; percentage does. I've heard somewhere > (from Terry, I think) that 15% is the 'optimal' setting for this, and > 10% was a compromise that wasn't too far below optimal, but gave that 5% > of extra available space. 8% is the current default in newfs(8). Donald Knuth, "Seminumerical Algorithms: Sorting and Searching". 85% of load is the point at which a perfect hash starts getting collisions from random data with a probabiliy of higher than 1.005. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 0:58: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E993B37B416 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0Q8vMd77742; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:57:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:57:22 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020126005722.A77604@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:32:35AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > The vendor sets up the Windows XP preinstalled on the system. > > The preinstall uses all the disk space, because there's no > reason not to with the XP FS (NTFS). > > The "rescue" disk uses "Norton Ghost" to overwrite the entire > drive with a new image that has XP installed this way. Compaq used to ship their cheaper desktop systems with a CD that writes a drive image instead of a Windows CD. Thus, you could delete a single system file and have to wipe everything out, and you couldn't move Windows to a larger disk. It pissed the hell out of me. > If you're interested: the !@#$@%! "Norton Ghost" just > writes the disk, without writing the partition table, > unless the partition table isn't there already. It works well for what it was designed to do, namely, making (almost) exact clones of OS installations. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 1: 3:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E27537B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UOkK-000466-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:03:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:03:32 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Dual-boot configurations are really not necessary today. Even the cheapest > second-hand PC will run FreeBSD quite nicely, so there isn't any reason not > to run it on a separate, dedicated machine. If you need both Windows and > FreeBSD, just use one machine for each. Works great in a one room apartment. Also works great if you aren't a geek, and only want to own one computer, or are a student, who has to have a Windows machine for classwork, but would like to have a UNIX to work/learn on, too. > Additionally, no production system can be a dual-boot system, > since production systems by nature are up 24 hours a day. How many production systems do you think people buy from stores like Office Max? What percentage of machines sold do you think are sold by stores like Office Max? How many machines sold by these stores don't automatically include OS software you are asking people to scratch? Say that all of them come with Windows installed; the cost of Windows alone is ~$129 (street price). Congradualtions, you've just added that mush to the cost of trying out FreeBSD. > I've never run multiple-boot configurations on any machine. Nowadays there > is no significant cost advantage, and it's a real pain to stop the system > and reboot each time you want to use one system or the other, and getting > both systems configured to boot on a single hardware configuration can be > problematic. So rather than fixing it so it's not problematic, let's ignore the problem entirely, and whenever someone says anything, we can ask "what problem?". 8-). > Additionally, I prefer that the FreeBSD machine be _pure_ > FreeBSD, and that the Windows machine be _pure_ Windows. I don't think the machine should have to wear the scarlet letter "D" if it's dual boot, in order that all may know of the machines impurity, if that's what you're implying. I don't see any real benefit to the ethnic cleansing of hard disks, apart from it permitting you to pretend that coresidence problems don't exist. > Finally, when you > have two machines running simultaneously, you can use both operating systems > as intended: Windows for the desktop, and FreeBSD as your server. My > FreeBSD system handles e-mail, prototyping of my Web site, DNS, and so on, > for example. You mean Windows NT/XP as your server, and FreeBSD as your... your... uh... your... reason to buy another machine? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 1: 9: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6722837B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UOpQ-0000Ah-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:08:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3C527220.C5842AA7@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:08:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <20020125234453.R32624-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > this is not always very convienent. i have ONE dual booting machine, my > laptop. this also happens to be one of two machines that runs win2k. Laptops are an incredibly common "dual boot" case, from my experience. > > Additionally, no production system can be a dual-boot system, since > > production systems by nature are up 24 hours a day. > > i don't think anyone has disputed this. production systems are, by nature, > single OS/single purpose machines (that's my own choice, and my own > philosphy.. it makes locking a machine down easier..). People don't have their first experience with FreeBSD with the installation of a production system. People who install production systems are generally computing professionals, and I would count them out of the target market for one-off installs, in any case, which is what we are talking about here. Could someone else send the comment in on the consent decree public comment period (ends Monday; see SlashDot) that ther should be a requirement that the space on the disk should be divided such that either user data, or another OS, can be installed on all machines, or that Microsoft should be required to provide partition shrinking tools that can be operated via addition of a .bat file in the / directory? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 1:20:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BBD937B417 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:20:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UP0Q-0005Wv-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:20:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5274C9.32C261AC@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:20:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com> <20020126005722.A77604@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Compaq used to ship their cheaper desktop systems with a CD that > writes a drive image instead of a Windows CD. Thus, you could delete > a single system file and have to wipe everything out, and you couldn't > move Windows to a larger disk. It pissed the hell out of me. It is practically a requirement for Windows XP and other non-FAT based OSs, which don't have tools that can run in DOS mode to create an FS of that type, or write contents to that FS type. The Sony VAIO "System Recovery" and "Application Recovery" CDROMs for Windows up through ME are perhaps the best I've ever seen. I don't know what Sony does with XP, since I don't have a Sony system that ships with XP, and wouldn't have any XP systems at all, if it weren't for licensing and cost considerations for test equipment. The Sony VAIO system recovery CDROM permits recovery of deleted files without loss of information, and recovery of the OS in a user created partition (after repartitioning for installation of another OS, and subsequent loss of the Windows partition to the vagraies of whatever), or full image-blasting of the disk (partition table and all). The Application recovery CDROMs can be used to incrementally recover damaged applications, install optional applications and other data, or reinstall from scratch. I like the Sony VAIO recovery procedures. Though I rather expect we are just as screwed on Windows XP recovery with Sony supplied recovery media (I would be happy to hear differently). > > If you're interested: the !@#$@%! "Norton Ghost" just > > writes the disk, without writing the partition table, > > unless the partition table isn't there already. > > It works well for what it was designed to do, namely, making (almost) > exact clones of OS installations. Which is great if you are installing a system for the first time at a factory, or mass producing desktop setups in an IT department at a company, but much less great if what you are doing is recovering from a trashed Windows system file, and don't want to trash the data on your Windows partition (e.g. .DOC files you created after you bought the machine, before you broke it), and incredibly less great if you've already repartitioned and installed FreeBSD or Linux, and have data there, as well. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 1:24:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0723B37B41C for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0Q9Ogj79118; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:24:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 01:24:41 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Terry Lambert Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <3C527220.C5842AA7@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020126011043.P32624-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > People don't have their first experience with FreeBSD > with the installation of a production system. People > who install production systems are generally computing > professionals, and I would count them out of the target > market for one-off installs, in any case, which is what > we are talking about here. good point. i'm sorry for not following the thread more closely. related, most people do not have much more than 1 or 2 computers in the home. it may be more than just inconvienent to have more than that (computing professionals are an exception, of course), and perhaps a financial limit. most "joe blow" people want something that'll just work, and windows, as much as we may hate to admit it, does just that. > Could someone else send the comment in on the consent > decree public comment period (ends Monday; see SlashDot) > that ther should be a requirement that the space on the > disk should be divided such that either user data, or > another OS, can be installed on all machines, or that > Microsoft should be required to provide partition > shrinking tools that can be operated via addition of a > .bat file in the / directory? could you provide an URL? i must've missed that one. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 3:10: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5677E37B404 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0QB9qr11967; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:09:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:09:53 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > I don't see any real benefit to the ethnic > cleansing of hard disks, apart from it > permitting you to pretend that coresidence > problems don't exist. The less complexity you have in a configuration, the more stable it will be. I note that getting dual-boot configurations to work seems to require effort far out of proportion to the results obtained. > You mean Windows NT/XP as your server, and > FreeBSD as your... your... uh... your... > reason to buy another machine? I run NT server as my desktop. I chose NT server so that I could work with all the server-side features of NT; I have it configured as a primary domain controller, too (even though it is the only machine in my domain!). However, in my current set-up, the FreeBSD machine actually works as the server; it sits quietly to one side and sends and receives e-mail, and it holds a mirror of my production Web site so that I can test (I did originally install Apache on NT for this purpose, and it works okay, but there are still too many differences between the operating systems to really mirror the production system effectively--the production Web site being on FreeBSD, too). And as I've said, the FreeBSD machine provides DNS for me, in order to improve performance, since my ISP's DNS servers can be real slugs at times. There is much to be said for having two machines. In particular, it lets you do all the things that involve one machine interacting with another, and when you are running a very net-savvy OS like FreeBSD, being able to use all the network stuff is a huge advantage. Also, I'm never obligated to drop what I'm doing to reboot; rebooting a machine to change OS is a clean sweep--you are not just closing one application, you are completely blasting all work in progress and moving to a completely different world. It's like going from the office to home, or vice versa. If all you need is one application, this is a very high price to pay for switching. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 3:49:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FD237B41E for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16URKo-00050s-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:49:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5297BD.77CF5E53@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:49:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Complaining about the proposed MS settlement [SLASHDOT] References: <20020126011043.P32624-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > Could someone else send the comment in on the consent > > decree public comment period (ends Monday; see SlashDot) > > that ther should be a requirement that the space on the > > disk should be divided such that either user data, or > > another OS, can be installed on all machines, or that > > Microsoft should be required to provide partition > > shrinking tools that can be operated via addition of a > > .bat file in the / directory? > > could you provide an URL? i must've missed that one. mailto:microsoft.atr@usdoj.gov The Tunney Act permits public comment, which must be forwarded to the Judge in the case. See also: http://www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tunney.html http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms-settle.htm -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 5:12:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7816237B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0040.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.40] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16USdH-0004hQ-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:12:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:12:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > I don't see any real benefit to the ethnic > > cleansing of hard disks, apart from it > > permitting you to pretend that coresidence > > problems don't exist. > > The less complexity you have in a configuration, the more stable it will be. Can you back this statement up? Complexity is an emergent property of even incredibly simple-seeming systems. See: Growing Artificial Societies Joshua M. Epstein, Rovert L. Axtell MIT Press ISBN: 0262550253 and Nonlinear Dynamics, Mathematical Biology and Social Science (Santa Fe Institute Studies in the Science of Complexity. Lecture Notes, Vol 4) Joshua M. Epstein Perseus Press ISBN: 0201959895 and The Economy As an Evolving Complex System (Sante Fe Institute Studies in the Sciences of Complexity. Lecture Notes, Vol 5) Philip W. Anderson, David Pines Perseus Press ISBN: 0201156857 > I note that getting dual-boot configurations to work seems to require effort > far out of proportion to the results obtained. No, I noted it. You appear to be re-noteing it to support the idea that it shouldn't be done, rather than my point, which was that it shouldn't require monumental effort. Why you are for maintaining the status quo of monumental effort, or what agenda such a position serves, is a mystery to me. > There is much to be said for having two machines. In particular, it lets > you do all the things that involve one machine interacting with another, and > when you are running a very net-savvy OS like FreeBSD, being able to use all > the network stuff is a huge advantage. I guess tyhis is OK for a developer, but developers are not the target audience of a "test drive", nor of a CDROM that's putatively usable by the averay Windows end user. > Also, I'm never obligated to drop > what I'm doing to reboot; rebooting a machine to change OS is a clean > sweep--you are not just closing one application, you are completely blasting > all work in progress and moving to a completely different world. It's like > going from the office to home, or vice versa. If all you need is one > application, this is a very high price to pay for switching. Yes, it is. Which is why one hopes that after successfully "test driving" FreeBSD, the user will format their Windows partition to provide it with more disk space. 8-). On the other hand, one would hope they would keep the Windows for those applications where the Application Barrier to Entry of Microsofts Monopolistic practices, as determined by a U.S. Federal Court in its Findings Of Fact, have prevented from being available on FreeBSD (yet), but then use FreeBSD for everything else. Worst case, they should be able to use the free version of VMWare under FreeBSD to have both at the same time; best case, the WINE 1.0 release will render the need for Windows itself limited to those DLLs that Microsoft bundles with the OS instead of the application in order to tie the application to their OS. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 6:30:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D656D37B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0QEU6r12374; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:30:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:30:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Can you back this statement up? Only empirically. > Complexity is an emergent property of even > incredibly simple-seeming systems. But that's not what I said. I said that the more complex a system is, the less stable it will tend to be. This has nothing to do with whether or not a seemingly simple system is in fact complex. > Why you are for maintaining the status quo > of monumental effort ... I'm not. It makes no difference to me, since I do not build dual-boot systems. > I guess tyhis is OK for a developer ... It is okay for a production system or network, too. Few systems operate in isolation these days. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 8:47:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CE637B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 08:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.14] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0QGlA515776; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:47:10 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:35:52 +0100 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:27 PM -0600 2002/01/25, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> Well, since user-level programs can't write into the reserved >> disk space allocation (used to be ~10%, but I don't think that this >> really makes much sense with modern 100GB+ high-capacity disks, > > Why doesn't it make sense? > > The space allocation isn't intended to 'keep user-level program from > filling up the disk', While that is not the primary goal, that is one very useful side-effect. > it's intended to allow the fragmentation-avoidance > to work. That is the primary goal, yes. > Size doesn't matter; percentage does. I've heard somewhere > (from Terry, I think) that 15% is the 'optimal' setting for this, and > 10% was a compromise that wasn't too far below optimal, but gave that 5% > of extra available space. 8% is the current default in newfs(8). I disagree. Size does matter. The fragmentation-avoidance algorithms should still work at the sector/block/cylinder level, but the total disk space available is now many, many, many, many orders of magnitude larger than when these algorithms were first created. On modern high-capacity disks, 1% should be way more than you could ever need, in terms of what is required by the fragmentation-avoidance algorithms. Now, there may be other reasons why you might want to allocate more than 1% to this reserved disk space, including the reasons I've previously mentioned. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 9:34:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1942D37B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A8AE12130118; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:34:38 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Terry Lambert , Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:34:08 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201260934538.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 26 January 2002 01:03 am, Terry Lambert banged out on the key= s: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Dual-boot configurations are really not necessary today. Even the > > cheapest second-hand PC will run FreeBSD quite nicely, so there isn't= any > > reason not to run it on a separate, dedicated machine. If you need b= oth > > Windows and FreeBSD, just use one machine for each. > > Works great in a one room apartment. Also works great if you > aren't a geek, and only want to own one computer, or are a > student, who has to have a Windows machine for classwork, but > would like to have a UNIX to work/learn on, too. There is another possibility not yet mentioned - vmware. I have set up=20 systems at work that run (spec'd by the developers) redhat linux and vmwa= re=20 with win2000 in the vm. My experience was that this works real well. Both= =20 OS's have full network access to each other and the 'outside' world. This= =20 also saves the extra work of setting up a dual-boot system. Granted,=20 sometimes setting up vmware can be just as much work. Soon as I get a lar= ger=20 hard drive I'm going to do that on my workstation, FBSD with W2K in the v= m. --=20 Chip <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 12:42: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A984037B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F38BC84; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25364; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:41:57 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0QKj5W06808; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 12:45:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 26 Jan 2002 12:45:05 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > At 9:27 PM -0600 2002/01/25, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > Size doesn't matter; percentage does. I've heard somewhere > > (from Terry, I think) that 15% is the 'optimal' setting for this, and > > 10% was a compromise that wasn't too far below optimal, but gave that 5% > > of extra available space. 8% is the current default in newfs(8). > > I disagree. Size does matter. The fragmentation-avoidance > algorithms should still work at the sector/block/cylinder level, but the > total disk space available is now many, many, many, many orders of > magnitude larger than when these algorithms were first created. I'd be good to have this documented after some more experts express a common opinion on whether absolute or relative size of the reserve matters and how they'd choose the numbers. I'd hope they'd speak of partition size instead of disk size. And whether the value should have any dependence on tunefs's -o value. I suspect that the answer is "absolute", except for the effect big partitions have on the willingness of the SA to reduce risks by increasing their safety margins, at the cost of cheap disk space. One problem is that (according to tunefs(8) man page) if one uses 5% or less, the layout algorithm optimizes for defraging and slows down writes "greatly". I wonder if that algorithm is obsolete. (But one can force it to optimize for time with tunefs.) The tunefs(8) man page leaves me wondering, when it says This value can be set to zero, however up to a factor of three in throughput will be lost over the performance obtained at a 10% threshold. whether that's true even when the filesystem is far from full or only when comparing, say, two fileystems with 0-10% free space (and, I suspect, only a factor of three near 0%). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 13:23: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0D937B449 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E774BD24; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00435; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:22:36 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0QLPkO06814; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:25:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: David Schultz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 26 Jan 2002 13:25:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd be great to have an automatic multiple-booterizer, but I think there are better things to develop, mainly because I think the number of people who should use it would be small. Few (mostly laptop users) with M$Win installed can't easily buy a cheap, small, even used, second disk for a dedicated FreeBSD install. Few of them should risk loosing their M$Win when moving it around on the disk. Very few of them would be willing to back up or able to restore their M$Win. Even those who ARE willing will spread the news that FreeBSD blew out their M$Win when it happens due to bugs or drained battery or other hardware failure. Most of those few who can't use a dedicated disk can at least get a good taste of FreeBSD by booting off a CDROM into a memory-based FreeBSD. That experience could be greatly improved if someone would make one of those systems that puts FreeBSD filesystems into M$Win files (which has likely already been done), esp. if they could write some M$Win code to pre-size the fs files and run the defragger before making the FS in the file during the FreeBSD install. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 15:57:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BEA37B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UchB-0003Lr-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:57:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:57:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > Can you back this statement up? > > Only empirically. You mean anecdotally. Empirically would mean you had some conclusive evidence you could share. > > Complexity is an emergent property of even > > incredibly simple-seeming systems. > > But that's not what I said. I said that the more complex a system is, the > less stable it will tend to be. Can you back this statement up? Have you ever heard the words "metastable" or "fractal"? > This has nothing to do with whether or not > a seemingly simple system is in fact complex. I said it was an emergent property; this doesn't mean that "a seemingly simple system is in fact complex"; it means that complexity will appear, eventually if not immediately. The key to interacting with complexity is appropriate abstraction of that complexity along fractal lines. If we get back to the problem at hand, the partitioning of disks for the purposes of dual boot, then one of the very obvious places for abstraction is the fact that there are two partitioning tools in a self-similar domain, which is breaking up a disk into smaller areas for particular uses. So one obvious abstraction that can be had is to have a single tool that does the partitioning, and to treat the FreeBSD disk partition table exactly as you treat a DOS partition table within a DOS extended partition. This abstracts an entire layer of complexity from the process, by permitting the same tool UI to be used in the FreeBSD disklabel domain and the DOS partition table domain. Thus, while the system is still just as complex as it was before, the user experience is less complicated, and the attack phase of the learning curve is not as prolonged, since there is one less class of interaction that has to be learned by the user. > > Why you are for maintaining the status quo > > of monumental effort ... > > I'm not. It makes no difference to me, since I do not build dual-boot > systems. You don't act as if it makes no difference to you. You act as if you are heavily invested in the status quo. > > I guess this is OK for a developer ... > > It is okay for a production system or network, too. Your use of the phrase "production system" carries a lot of baggage with it; I'm not prepared to grant that the systems installed from CDROM are "production systems", unless you are a computer manufacturer who is shipping FreeBSD preinstalled as part of your system production line. If that were the case, I kownt hat you are not using the FreeBSD install process at all in production, and may not even be using it in the bootstrap process of producing a "golden master" disk. Having had personal experience with producing a "golden master" CDROM for embedded systems based on FreeBSD, I can say with authority that the FreeBSD CDROM production scripts are not up to the task because it's not possible to use kernel configs other than "GENERIC", and have sysinstall correctly install the resulting kernel, since it tries to copy "kernel.GENERIC", and will not look for the actual kernel if it is named "kerne.PROD" or anything other than "kernel.GENERIC". > Few systems operate in > isolation these days. Isolation or non-isolation is irrelevant to the problem, as far as it has been discussed. Isolation becomes an issue when network installation or upgrade are involved, and is therefore outside the scope of the discussion of CDROM installs entirely. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 16:11:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D90B37B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ucuj-0003Nr-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:11:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5345A0.68D0CE99@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:11:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller(was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > Size doesn't matter; percentage does. I've heard somewhere > > (from Terry, I think) that 15% is the 'optimal' setting for this, and > > 10% was a compromise that wasn't too far below optimal, but gave that 5% > > of extra available space. 8% is the current default in newfs(8). > > I disagree. Size does matter. The fragmentation-avoidance > algorithms should still work at the sector/block/cylinder level, but > the total disk space available is now many, many, many, many orders > of magnitude larger than when these algorithms were first created. > > On modern high-capacity disks, 1% should be way more than you > could ever need, in terms of what is required by the > fragmentation-avoidance algorithms. Now, there may be other reasons > why you might want to allocate more than 1% to this reserved disk > space, including the reasons I've previously mentioned. 85% hash fill is 85% hash fill. If you have an arbitrary sized hash table, then why do you somehow think the probability of a hash collision goes down as the size of the hash table goes up, if the relative load on the hash table increases until it is the same percentage of the total hash table size? Please search for "perfect hash" in the NEC "Cite Seer" CS reference database. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 16:17:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8B137B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ud0Z-0001TP-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:17:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53470C.8CEF3040@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:17:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chip Cc: Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <200201260934538.SM01304@there> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip wrote: > There is another possibility not yet mentioned - vmware. I have set up > systems at work that run (spec'd by the developers) redhat linux and vmware > with win2000 in the vm. My experience was that this works real well. Both > OS's have full network access to each other and the 'outside' world. This > also saves the extra work of setting up a dual-boot system. Granted, > sometimes setting up vmware can be just as much work. Soon as I get a larger > hard drive I'm going to do that on my workstation, FBSD with W2K in the vm. The problem with dual booting is not the dual boot, according to anyone in the discussion so far (except for Anthony). The problem is with the repartitioning of the disk for the installation. The VMWare approach has this same problem, with getting to the point where you can even contemplate the install. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 16:38:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564AC37B416 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0R0eEU01001; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:40:14 -0800 From: David Schultz To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020126164014.B810@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 01:25:45PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Gary W. Swearingen : > > I'd be great to have an automatic multiple-booterizer, but I think there > are better things to develop, mainly because I think the number of > people who should use it would be small. Few (mostly laptop users) with > M$Win installed can't easily buy a cheap, small, even used, second disk > for a dedicated FreeBSD install. Few of them should risk loosing their > M$Win when moving it around on the disk. Very few of them would be > willing to back up or able to restore their M$Win. Even those who ARE > willing will spread the news that FreeBSD blew out their M$Win when it > happens due to bugs or drained battery or other hardware failure. Multiboot works just fine right now, but it's not going to resize your NTFS partition for you. I previously argued that effort would be better spent fixing other things that can go wrong with the install, but Terry sez resizing NTFS should be easy. > Most of those few who can't use a dedicated disk can at least get a > good taste of FreeBSD by booting off a CDROM into a memory-based > FreeBSD. That experience could be greatly improved if someone would > make one of those systems that puts FreeBSD filesystems into M$Win > files (which has likely already been done), esp. if they could write > some M$Win code to pre-size the fs files and run the defragger > before making the FS in the file during the FreeBSD install. That would be a neat idea, and it couldn't be hard to implement. After all, we can already create filesystems in memory. Nevertheless, there are too many levels of indirection. It would only be a marketing gimmick, not something suitable for long-term use. At some point, the installer needs to work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 16:39:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D41F37B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UdME-0007lx-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:39:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:39:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brad Knowles , "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > I'd be good to have this documented after some more experts express a > common opinion on whether absolute or relative size of the reserve > matters and how they'd choose the numbers. I'd hope they'd speak of > partition size instead of disk size. And whether the value should > have any dependence on tunefs's -o value. > > I suspect that the answer is "absolute", except for the effect big > partitions have on the willingness of the SA to reduce risks by > increasing their safety margins, at the cost of cheap disk space. It's partition size, but X*(N + M) = (X*N) + (X*M). Multiplication is commutative and associative. 8-). So yes: it's absolute. Basically, at 85% in a perfect hash, there is 0% fragmentation, at 90% that goes up to 7%. It's really very easy to understand: you are using a statistical function to select a non-colliding subset of a set, and you want to know at what point you end up with diminishing returns, and collisions occur. If you have a friend who is a statistician, you should ask them to explain "The Birthday Paradox" to you. > One problem is that (according to tunefs(8) man page) if one uses 5% or > less, the layout algorithm optimizes for defraging and slows down writes > "greatly". I wonder if that algorithm is obsolete. (But one can force > it to optimize for time with tunefs.) No. The problem is that a 95% hash fill is considered to be unacceptable, since the collision rate goes up to an "unacceptably high" value. In laymans terms, when you randomly pick a number, and then hash it with a perfect hash function to get a block offset of a block you wish to allocate, you will find that the block you have picked is already allocated, and you have to do collision handling. The "fragmentation avoidance" changes it from a "first fit" to a "best fit" algorithm for the allocation you want to make. It is this change that slows down writes "greatly". You'd probably benefit from reading the original FFS paper. Over the years, FreeBSD has eroded the free reserve until it is very small. > The tunefs(8) man page leaves me wondering, when it says > > This value can be set to zero, however up to a factor of three in > throughput will be lost over the performance obtained at a 10% > threshold. > > whether that's true even when the filesystem is far from full or only > when comparing, say, two fileystems with 0-10% free space (and, I > suspect, only a factor of three near 0%). You know, you could worry about something else... like the fact that a formatted disk has less capacity than an unformatted one. What kind of "idiot" would format the disk and thus lose all that capacity? Can't we reduce the formatting overhead to 1/3 of the manufacturer default? 8-) 8-) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 17: 4:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADA437B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Udjq-0004b9-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:04:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3C535202.9001ACA2@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:04:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: David Schultz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: [ ... ] -- It'd be great to have an automatic multiple-diskizer, but I think there are better things to develop, mainly because I think the number of people who should use it would be small. Few (mostly desktop users) with M$Win installed can easily buy a cheap, small, even used, second disk and correctly install it with the master/slave jumpers, etc., working for a dedicated FreeBSD install. Few of them should risk voiding their warranty by installing the second disk. Very few of them would be willing to back up or able to restore their M$Win. Even those who ARE willing will spread the news that FreeBSD too their system off warranty if the system later blew out due to bugs or drained battery or other hardware failure and they were refused a replacement because the seal on their case was broken. Most of those few who can use a dedicated disk can't even at least get a good taste of FreeBSD by booting off a CDROM into a memory-based FreeBSD, since a read-only system is practically useless for any but toy use. -- 8-) 8-) 8-). > That experience could be greatly improved if someone would > make one of those systems that puts FreeBSD filesystems into M$Win files > (which has likely already been done), esp. if they could write some > M$Win code to pre-size the fs files and run the defragger before making > the FS in the file during the FreeBSD install. The original problem with this is that the FreeBSD FS stacking code doesn't work well enough to be able to do the Udo Walter "U-MSDOS" approach using an FS stacking layer to use a FAT-16 or FAT-32 FS. The current problem with this is that the FreeBSD NTFS code, which is what would have to be used for any new machine, since they come preinstalled with Windows XP these days, can't successfully write the disk. This is mostly a problem with the lack for write code in the FS, which in turn is because the FreeBSD VFS layer is not quite correctly organized to permit things like abort of log operations, and the lack of an "fsck" for NTFS to permit recovery by FreeBSD, following an improper shutdown. In other words, it's less work to make the multiboot work. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 17:11:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4093637B41B for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UdrK-00042C-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:11:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5353D2.ACC62BD@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:11:46 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020126164014.B810@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Multiboot works just fine right now, but it's not going to resize your > NTFS partition for you. I previously argued that effort would be > better spent fixing other things that can go wrong with the install, > but Terry sez resizing NTFS should be easy. The FreeBSD controllable part of it is the FreeBSD installer partitioning. Putting Partition Magic functionality into a free program is a bit harder for Windows XP. It requires the ability to write to NTFS partitions, minimally. Resizing is less of a problem, but is still problematic (and still requires the ability to write). > That would be a neat idea, and it couldn't be hard to implement. > After all, we can already create filesystems in memory. Nevertheless, > there are too many levels of indirection. It would only be a > marketing gimmick, not something suitable for long-term use. At some > point, the installer needs to work. Yes. Plus it could not really be safely read/write, unless you mapped out the sectors in one large file, and only modified them after getting their location from the NTFS. There is currently no capability for getting the file sector list for a file, within FreeBSD (interestingly, Windows has the ability to do this, as an OS service). No matter how you look at it, work is required. I've been communicating the information to the Partition Magic people, at least as far as necessary to modify the way it works with Boot Magic and Partition Magic, and Boot Magic hidden partition interactions. Hopefully, something will come of that. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 19:41:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07E737B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0R3hnG01670; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:43:49 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020126194349.A1641@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020126164014.B810@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5353D2.ACC62BD@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C5353D2.ACC62BD@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:11:46PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > > That would be a neat idea, and it couldn't be hard to implement. > > After all, we can already create filesystems in memory. Nevertheless, > > there are too many levels of indirection. It would only be a > > marketing gimmick, not something suitable for long-term use. At some > > point, the installer needs to work. > > Yes. Plus it could not really be safely read/write, unless > you mapped out the sectors in one large file, and only > modified them after getting their location from the NTFS. > > There is currently no capability for getting the file sector > list for a file, within FreeBSD (interestingly, Windows has > the ability to do this, as an OS service). I'm not claiming this would be efficient or safe, but couldn't you just map an NTFS file to memory and steal the rest of the code from mfs? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 20:34:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A4337B400 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0307.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.52] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Uh1L-0003QY-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:34:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53834B.840839A2@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:34:19 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020126003431.A77505@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020126164014.B810@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5353D2.ACC62BD@mindspring.com> <20020126194349.A1641@HAL9000.wox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > > Yes. Plus it could not really be safely read/write, unless > > you mapped out the sectors in one large file, and only > > modified them after getting their location from the NTFS. > > > > There is currently no capability for getting the file sector > > list for a file, within FreeBSD (interestingly, Windows has > > the ability to do this, as an OS service). > > I'm not claiming this would be efficient or safe, but couldn't you > just map an NTFS file to memory and steal the rest of the code from > mfs? No such thing as a "putpages" or a block write strategy routine for NTFS. It's not writable, remember? The only way you could do it would be to get the block list from the file and access it directly by block offset from the device. The missing pieces for this are: (1) PHK killed block devices, and you basically need two devices worth of access to the one disk simultaneously, and (2) there's no mechanism for returning the block list for a file. You could maybe get arouns these by writing enough of an NTFS to open the device (but then you could not mount it, too) and then use that block list as a device (you would need a pseudo device driver to do that, which you would need to write). Ah... packing workaround on workaround on workaround, just to avoid doing the right thing... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 20:38: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2315337B41E for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0R4bqr14718; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:37:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:37:52 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You mean anecdotally. Empirically would mean > you had some conclusive evidence you could share. No. "Empirically" means "based on experience"--mine, in this case. > Can you back this statement up? See above. > Have you ever heard the words "metastable" > or "fractal"? Yes, but they don't apply in this context. > I said it was an emergent property; this doesn't > mean that "a seemingly simple system is in fact > complex"; it means that complexity will appear, > eventually if not immediately. Either way, it has nothing to do with my statement that greater complexity tends to correlate with greater instability. > You don't act as if it makes no difference to you. > You act as if you are heavily invested in the > status quo. I simply present an alternate viewpoint for those considering the matter. > ... I'm not prepared to grant that the > systems installed from CDROM are "production > systems" ... I've no doubt that many FreeBSD production systems, including mine, are installed from a CD-ROM, whether you are prepared to grant this or not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 22:18:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE58437B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0383.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.128] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UieP-0005tl-00; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:18:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3C539BC5.C1543E5D@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:18:45 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > You mean anecdotally. Empirically would mean > > you had some conclusive evidence you could share. > > No. "Empirically" means "based on experience"--mine, in this case. Oh, you mean anecdotally, as in based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers. Unless you have some empirical evidence you wish to present? As in capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment? > > Can you back this statement up? > > See above. Guess that's "no". > > Have you ever heard the words "metastable" > > or "fractal"? > > Yes, but they don't apply in this context. I guess you don't know how an extended partition in a DOS primary partition, or a disklabel in a DOS primary partition are self-similar to the DOS partition table itself? > > I said it was an emergent property; this doesn't > > mean that "a seemingly simple system is in fact > > complex"; it means that complexity will appear, > > eventually if not immediately. > > Either way, it has nothing to do with my statement that > greater complexity tends to correlate with greater instability. Great! We agree! Particularly since it is I who is pointing out that abstraction of the complexity you are caliming without evidence as the root cause of stability problems is a possible way of dealing with that complexity, and providing a representational geometry which is non-complex for users wishing to manipulate it. > > You don't act as if it makes no difference to you. > > You act as if you are heavily invested in the > > status quo. > > I simply present an alternate viewpoint for those considering the matter. An alternate viewpoint derived from an investment in the status quo? > > ... I'm not prepared to grant that the > > systems installed from CDROM are "production > > systems" ... > > I've no doubt that many FreeBSD production systems, including mine, are > installed from a CD-ROM, whether you are prepared to grant this or not. Just because all trout are fish does not mean that all fish are trout. Your claimed ability to install a production system using the CDROM installer says noting about where the majority of FreeBSD production system come from. I can personally vouch for over 20,000 of them that came from disk duplication, rather than CDROM installs. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 23:31: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBE137B402 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.176.89]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020127073058.PJBF17929.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:30:58 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020127021806.01dfe2a8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:21:09 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <3C53470C.8CEF3040@mindspring.com> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <200201260934538.SM01304@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:17 PM 1/26/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >The problem with dual booting is not the dual boot, >according to anyone in the discussion so far (except >for Anthony). > >The problem is with the repartitioning of the disk for >the installation. The VMWare approach has this same >problem, with getting to the point where you can even >contemplate the install. VMware doesn't suffer from this problem when you're using its virtual disks, which look like fixed disks to the guest OS but are really just large files on the host filesystem. The problem is even easier if you're running the Windows version of VMware, in which case you don't need to modify your default NTFS partition at all. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 23:31: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CAE37B416 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.176.89]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020127073100.PJBH17929.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:31:00 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020127022140.01e3ec10@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:23:47 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <3C5274C9.32C261AC@mindspring.com> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com> <20020126005722.A77604@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:20 AM 1/26/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >[Norton Ghost] is great if you are installing a system for the >first time at a factory, or mass producing desktop setups >in an IT department at a company, but much less great if >what you are doing is recovering from a trashed Windows >system file, and don't want to trash the data on your >Windows partition (e.g. .DOC files you created after you >bought the machine, before you broke it), and incredibly >less great if you've already repartitioned and installed >FreeBSD or Linux, and have data there, as well. Yeah, one of the lessons I learned the hard way since I've started multi-booting is that I should not bother configuring any OS/applications until I'm sure that all the OSes in question will boot properly. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 26 23:31:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6EA37B417 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.176.89]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020127073101.PJBJ17929.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:31:01 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020127022351.01e30e40@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:30:50 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:47 AM 1/26/2002, you wrote: >Dual-boot configurations are really not necessary today. Even the cheapest >second-hand PC will run FreeBSD quite nicely, so there isn't any reason not >to run it on a separate, dedicated machine. If you need both Windows and >FreeBSD, just use one machine for each. I've heard of throwing hardware at the problem, but sheesh. :-/ For those of us who aren't rolling like J.P. Morgan, getting another computer every time we want to test drive a new operating system isn't practical. I can't imagine that it would be good advice for getting new recruits into the FreeBSD camp either. "Now, once you've gotten that additional PC, just stick this CD-ROM into the...huh? what's that? No, no...only the operating system is free. Actually using it will cost you around $300 minimum." Still wishing I had more partitions, Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message