From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 0:31:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D8337B404 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.21] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16zBoY-0003Le-00; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:31:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC26A86.B702FF8@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:30:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419152309.035a96d0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420112056.021aaec0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420205440.021f37b0@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:35 PM 4/20/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > >No, you are talking about a program that operates as a proxy; > > Only in the particular case of the caching proxy. I want to > be able to run other programs there that are not proxies at > all and have them communicate properly with the Net. You are still talking about outbound connections from a machine that's supposedly acting as a router. > >How about this: if you can come up with an algorithm that will > >"do what I want" for you for all cases, without crippling the > >fast path, how about you tell us, and we can think about > >implementing it? > > OK, here goes. First, let's restate the problem. The stack is > choosing a source address for an outbound socket opened with > a source address of INADDR_ANY based on the routing table at > the time the socket is opened. It's saying, "Let's use one of > our addresses on the subnet to which we'd route outbound packets > which are headed for the destination address." No. It's not. The 10.x net is *NOT* "the same subnet". The thing you were complaining about is that the source address being picked is on the 10.x net. The address to send is based on *the interface*, not on the IP address. I can't really stress this enough (apparently). > As I understand it, you can do this on a Cisco router by saying > that the interface is up but "unnumbered." But this isn't a > perfect solution either. (For example, in my case, when > I want to send a packet to a device inside the ISP's intranet, > I want my machine to know that it has an address on that > subnet, respond to ARP "who-has" requests, be able to treat > them as local, etc.) What I want is to specify that processes on > my local machine not use source addresses from that subnet even > if they specify INADDR_ANY. To do this, I want to be able > to do one of three things: This is contradictory: o when I want to send a packet to a device inside the ISP's intranet, I want my machine to know that it has an address on that subnet, respond to ARP "who-has" requests, be able to treat them as local, etc.) o specify that processes on my local machine not use source addresses from that subnet even if they specify INADDR_ANY Pick only one. The suggestion Matt made is to not put the IP address for the ISP subnet on the same interface as the routable IP address. He is correct: you need to do it that way. > 1) Tag an address assigned to an interface as being disqualified > from the selection process. (It might be useful to turn this bit > on by default when one assigns an unregistered address > to an interface.) This would solve the problem automagically > in the case of intranets that use unregistered addresses (such > as many corporate WANs or the network of the ISP I'm dealing with). > But it wouldn't interfere with NAT. I already suggeted that the 10.x address should be the alias, and that the routable address should be the non-alias address. Have you tried this yet? When Matt siggested the use of a /32 address... all alias addresses are considered to be whatever the canonical netmask is, regardless of the fact that you are required to use a 255.255.255.255 netmask (i.e. "a /32") on all aliases. For it to work, then, you *must* use a different interface. > 2) Specify a default source address for processes on the local > machine that is independent of the routing table. (An "auto" option, > indicated by an address of 0.0.0.0, would bring back the old > algorithm.) This would actually speed up the opening of sockets, > since no scan of the routing table would be required to pick a > source address for the socket. And it wouldn't violate the > semantics of INADDR_ANY.... The process opening the socket has > indicated no preference, so why not let the administrator specify > one?) This may not work for Intranet connections. It will certainly *not* speed the routing, since you will *always* have to create a clone route for any connection, period, and you've just added extra initialization requirements. This also breaks, in the face of "most specific match" routing rules for non-default routed networks. You *might* be able to specify the source IP for the default route -- this is, in fact, the first think I suggested, when I suggested that the inpcb route entry should be hacked -- but it will mean slightly higher overhead on connection establishment, in an area where connections-per-second is one of the primary performance metrics. > 3) Do both of the above, since each might be useful in specific > situations. I don't think your #1 can *ever* work liike you want it to. > >So you are trying to make the FreeBSD box act like a Cisco router. > > Not really. But why should there be things that a Cisco router > can't do that a FreeBSD router can't? I told you: there are bugs. Patches welcome. Also, you are trying to turn two boxes into one box, without seperating the interface space, like you are supposed to, and without modifying the applications to explicitly ignore one space, like you are supposed to. > >As I said before, FreeBSD only considers the destination address > >when deciding on a route, and this is technically the wrong thing > >to do for this particualr weird setup you have. > > It's really doing something different than deciding on a route.... > It's deciding what source address to drop into the socket. Again, > since a socket is defined by the tuple {source address, source > port, destination address, destination port} and the source address > must be one to which the other machine can reply (it can't > be INADDR_ANY, which is zero), the machine must pick something > at the time the socket is opened and then stick with it, > come what may. Even if the routing table changes so that a > different address would have been picked at a later time. There's an expectation that you will not be mixing routable and non-routable addresses on the same interface. That means that any IP address seen on an interface that is a route will be reachable from the subnet represented by any of the IP addresses on the interface. To put this in simple terms: One interface, one subnet. > >Another thing that would likely work is to not try to run the > >proxy services on the same machine that's acting as the router. > > It's the best place to run them, especially when one is doing > interception caching. The CPU load from the routing is relatively > light, so there are plenty of resources available for the caching. > Didn't the InterJet do this? The InterJet modified its daemons to do explicit bindings to addresses, rather than using INADDR_ANY. If I recall correctly, I told you to do that already. 8-). > >Your information is insufficient. A block diagram, with a dotted > >line around the blocks you expect to jam into a single FreeBSD > >box would be useful. > > +-----------------+ > | Router | Routable > Rest of world (via ----| +--------------+|--- Subnet 1 > Subnet 10 intranet) | |Interception || > | | caching || > | |--------------||--- Routable > | | RBL zone xfer|| Subnet 2 > | |--------------|| etc. > | | DNS, DHCP || > | |--------------|| > | | sshd || > | |--------------|| > | | Utilities for|| > | | maintenance || > | | (e.g. ftp, || > | |CVSup, scp || > | +--------------+| > +-----------------+ Yeah; here's your problem: the interface space isn't treated as physically or logically seperate, like it needs to be. Either physically seperate it by using different interfaces for different subnets (e.g. tun0 vs. de0), or logically seperate it by modifying the daemons to not bind to INADDR_ANY. I think you also misunderstood my question, so I'll restate it: "How does a client installation normally look, when they install it, and there's no FreeBSD box involved?" > In other words, really just some basic firewall functions and > interception caching. The box might not actually be running > DNS or DHCP in all cases, but it'd be nice to be able to, so > I've added them to the diagram. Note that to do DNS zone > transfers, CVSup, FTP, or scp as a client, the box will need to > be able to get to the rest of the world from local processes. THe sockets2 working group has suggested explicit "from" address functions for handling this case. > >It really feels like you want something to work that we will all > >say "you can't expect that to work!", > > It's perfectly reasonable to expect it to work. The only curve > I've thrown it that it has not been able to handle is that its > upstream network is an intranet with unroutable addresses. Not > unusual either within ISPs or within corporate WANs. No. You also put the routable and non-routable addresses on the same interface. While it's often ignored, let me say again, for the record: it is technically not legal to run multiple subnets on the same wire, and, in fact, switches like the old Extreme Networks switch that supports only a single IP per port are going to spend a significant fraction of your bandwidth replacing cached ARP entries on the switch ports. > >Arrrrrrrrgh! Why don't you just post what I post back at > >me, instead of saying the same thing, and spin-doctoring it? > > You're annoyed that I agree with you? ;-) No, that you are paraphrasing what I said in order to try to refute what I said. > >> Would it affect the "fastpath?" As I understand it, a socket's source > >> address is defined when it's opened and stays that way thereafter. > >> (Correct me if I'm wrong there, but isn't a socket uniquely defined during > >> its lifetime by the tuple of {source address, source port, destination > >> address, destination port}?) All that would need to be altered would be > >> the *initial* decision about the source address used. Right? > > > >Not as such. It's uniquely identified at the host by the IP/port > >destination tuple, *NOT* by *both* the source and destination > >tuples. > > This can't be. When several clients connect to a server's well-known > port at the server, the sessions must be distinguished by the source > addresses and ports. If the source addresses are allowed to change, > the server won't know which client (or session) is which! The initial source address decision does not take both tuples into effect. It is a routing decision based only on the destination tuple. Period. > >In order to hack this properly, you would have to put two more > >compares in the tcp_output and ip_output code, > > An option that assigned a fixed source address couldn't help but be > a net win, because it would avoid a traversal of a linked list of > routing table entries. Likewise, disqualifying an address would mean > having a flag or leaving that routing table entry off a linked list. You can't clone something until you find it, and you can't find it until you traverse. You would still have to traverse for the destination, determine that it was via the default route, and then traverse again until you found a source that was valid. So for N total and M on the interface to the default route (N >> M), then instead of O(N), we're talking O(N) + O(M). Personally, I don't want to take that hit, just because someone is unwilling to call "bind" on their outbound connections, and that call to "bind" is being required because they are trying to illegally put two subnets on the same interface (one routable, the other not), and they are not using the "tun" interface for the main application that it was designed for. > The latter would actually speed up the scan of the list because the > list would be shorter! No, it wouldn't. It would slow it down, because you are adding a match criteria. See above. > And one way to implement the fixed source address > would be to aim the pointer to the linked list at a list with exactly > one entry: one specifying the fixed address. This would introduce no > more compares. So, you see, there's no need to add cycles. It's just > a matter of determining whether adding a compare would be a net win. (It > might be, if it shortened the code path most of the time.) No, This will not work. You *must* still differentiate between connections that are to a local subnet, vs. those which must be forwarded via the default route. There is no other choice. The more I think about it, the more evil your ISP's configuration becomes. I understand the desire to conserve the published IP address space. It seems like using unnumbered interfaces would be "a" way to do this, but not "the" way to do it. > >or you would have > >to hack up the "clone" route to have different precedence ordering > >of the IP addresses associated with the interface. The new SYN > >cache code complicates this type of hack considerably. > > I don't understand. Why would this be? The SYN cache code deals with > sockets on which the machine is listening, not outbound sockets. Because the decision has to be made at the time the SYN-ACK is sent by the host receiving a connection request, so that it can claim the proper source address, of course. You are acting like sockets are bound to interfaces, instead of IP addresses. While this would be incredibly useful for a lot of things (including not having to kick your daemons in the head, should an IP address change out from under them), this is not how it works, except for INADDR_ANY. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 0:34:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3D537B404 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.21] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16zBr9-0004Yg-00; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:33:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC26B45.184E8039@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:33:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420113621.021dfd00@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420204617.021f4470@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >> 2) Running local processes in a "jail" (assuming that this would > >> force their IP source addresses to the address assigned to the > >> "jail...." Would it? > > > >No, it would not force the source address. > > Are you sure? I haven't played much with jails, but I do note the > following on the jail(8) man page: > > > jail.socket_unixiproute_only > > The jail functionality binds an IPv4 address to each jail, and lim- > > its access to other network addresses in the IPv4 space that may be > > available in the host environment. > > I had always interpreted this to mean that the apps operating in > the jail were limited -- both when they listened and when they > opened outbound sockets -- to using the jail's IPv4 address. You are confusing routing with sockets, again. Jails do not result in an implicit bind to an IP address for outbound connect requests (maybe they should, but that's another discussion). If you read the documentation for how to use jails, you should note that you are required to disable INADDR_ANY binding of daemons running in the host environment, for the jail code to function properly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 8:45:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14CB37B41B for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 08:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10062; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:45:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:45:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , "Matthew D. Fuller" , Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? In-Reply-To: <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020421101830.V9678-100000@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > My previous suggestion was to make the routable IP address the > source address by making it the canonical IP address for the > interface, rather than one of the aliases, which should have > resulted in it being used as the source address. From my own experience, it matters not wether an address is the primary or an alias on an interface, it only matters wether that address is logically closest to its destination, or the next-hop if the destination is non-local. In Brett's case, the next-hop has a 10.x.x.x address, so FreeBSD naturally chooses whatever 10.x.x.x address is on the same subnet as that next-hop because it is closer than any other assigned address is to that next-hop. I admit, it would be nice to be able to override this (completely logical and nothing-wrong-with-it) behavior when needed. This is all from my own experience of running a FreeBSD router with 8 interfaces on it and a mix of public and private addresses for about the last 4 years or more. I'm quite familiar with its behavior. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 12:44:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C887037B404 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by sasami.jurai.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3LJiU2A062123; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 15:44:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 15:44:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Paul Traina Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: how do I turn off all freebsd demons? In-Reply-To: <008a01c1e953$5275e520$256b6fc0@shockwave.org> Message-ID: <20020421154221.S42854-100000@sasami.jurai.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Paul Traina wrote: > I am a Christian, and I have been informed that FreeBSD invokes the > power of the devil through demons. I wish to sanctify my operating > system and exorcise all these demons. Can you tell me how? > > See below... > http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html If we've got a hookup with the dark one how come our marketshare is so low? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | For Great Justice! | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 12:53:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAF637B400 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwm@localhost) by guru.mired.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) id g3LJrja05968 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:53:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1019850825.f050c7@mired.org) X-Authentication-Warning: guru.mired.org: mwm set sender to mwm-dated-1019850825.f050c7@mired.org using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15555.6344.778770.303619@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:53:44 -0500 To: Paul Traina , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: how do I turn off all freebsd demons? In-Reply-To: <20020421154221.S42854-100000@sasami.jurai.net> References: <008a01c1e953$5275e520$256b6fc0@shockwave.org> <20020421154221.S42854-100000@sasami.jurai.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Paul Traina wrote: > I am a Christian, and I have been informed that FreeBSD invokes the > power of the devil through demons. I wish to sanctify my operating > system and exorcise all these demons. Can you tell me how? > > See below... > http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html PEBCAK. So I would recommend installing windows over BSD. That will solve the problem. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 14:34:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C592937B405; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g3J72HO13665; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:02:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:02:17 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nik Clayton , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020419080217.M30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <15550.26754.195694.112510@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3w8x3zxtEJX8SUiO" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <15550.26754.195694.112510@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1019543554.d7208b@mired.org on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:32:34AM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --3w8x3zxtEJX8SUiO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:32:34AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > In <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>, Nik Clayton typed: > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:37:10PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > The tricky part will be when the timing is warped by the window > > > manager. I.e., if I've got a WM set to follow the mouse and not raise > > > the active window, then activating a window is one action for me > > > (point), but two (point and click) for a windows users. On the other > > > hand, raising a window is easy for a windows users, because they can > > > point anywhere in the window, whereas I have to point at the frame.= =20 > > Not if Meta-LeftClick is bound to 'raise window' anywhere in the window > > area. . . >=20 > That's still slower, because it's one point and two keyclicks vs. one > point and one keyclick. On average I'm much faster, because most of the time I'm sending windows to the bottom of the Z order. It means I don't have to waste time minimising windows I don't need (which might explain the 17 open xterms at the moment ). N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --3w8x3zxtEJX8SUiO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjy/wPgACgkQk6gHZCw343V+0wCcCS+OEqtcxK54IHoMFgCJWkDx b/8AnR9kT7T0qtyzu2bZUr2jrN6MOQTh =SvO3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3w8x3zxtEJX8SUiO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 14:37: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B5A37B419 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g3J70A813655; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:00:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:00:09 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020419080009.L30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/y7qBwfEQL/2otS" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org>; from jan@caustic.org on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:41:05AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --W/y7qBwfEQL/2otS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:41:05AM -0700, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > handles it very well (showing you the window titles in a non-intrusive > > way as you're cycling through them, so you can quickly hit the correct > > one), and sawfish/gnome is not bad either; in both cases it's much > > quicker than aiming a mouse pointer at the correct window, especially > > if you have a lot of open windows. Long time since I've used windows > > but my memory is that alt-tab isn't quite so nice there, though that > > key combination is I think a Microsoft invention. >=20 > i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS.=20 It doesn't on OS X. It cycles through active *applications*, not windows. Which is a real pain in the butt. That, and the fact that only 'minimised' windows appear in the dock is my pet OS X peeve. . . N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --W/y7qBwfEQL/2otS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjy/wHkACgkQk6gHZCw343UeIQCfTtluY0OPUQ/+5Emt7wcREhDG 4XoAoID/HYDPbnSTXs+PC2sOCyHW3Her =IQP+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/y7qBwfEQL/2otS-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 14:42:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E2C37B42F for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-137-7.dial.proxad.net [62.147.137.7]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD2DAB54D for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:42:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 4690 invoked by uid 1001); 21 Apr 2002 21:42:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:42:19 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nik Clayton Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020421214219.GA4662@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020419080009.L30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020419080009.L30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It doesn't on OS X. It cycles through active *applications*, not > windows. Which is a real pain in the butt. Ideally there would be another hotkey combination to cycle through windows related to the application. But cycling in a fixed sequence rather than using a "stack" -- *that* is a pain in the butt. > That, and the fact that only 'minimised' windows appear in the dock is > my pet OS X peeve. . . How customizable is OS X? Suppose I don't like the aqua interface, can I elect to run rootless X with my favourite window manager, not have aqua at all, but still have access to OS X applications when I want (start them up via the command line, or something)? Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 15:36:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0976D37B41D; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 15:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.38] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3LMYek01344; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020421214219.GA4662@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020419080009.L30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20020421214219.GA4662@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:33:54 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Nik Clayton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:42 PM +0200 2002/04/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Ideally there would be another hotkey combination to cycle through > windows related to the application. But cycling in a fixed sequence > rather than using a "stack" -- *that* is a pain in the butt. So, - would always pop the stack? And this stack-popping is started all over again whenever any keyboard or mouse events are passed through to the application below? Hmmm... Interesting concept. But what happens if the mouse is accidentally moved while popping the stack? > How customizable is OS X? Suppose I don't like the aqua interface, > can I elect to run rootless X with my favourite window manager, not > have aqua at all, but still have access to OS X applications when I > want (start them up via the command line, or something)? Hmm. I don't know that this is possible. I've never tried it, though. I believe that you should be able to run an Aqua-less X-only environment, but then that would mean you couldn't run virtually all MacOS/Aqua applications, because they don't understand X. You would basically be turning your machine into a Unix box, just like installing any other form of Linux or *BSD on your machine and running *nix applications. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 21:28:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C99337B420 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-125.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.125]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A7550323; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:28:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 9C29A3332; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:28:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9725A4C4F; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:28:10 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:28:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-02:21.tcpip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum Inc. X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway-Joke: Asleep at the wheel. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Jason C. Wells wrote: > # rm -rf * .log > :: waiting :: > :: waiting :: > :: realization sets in :: > ^C > # ls -la > bash: ls: command not found > :: cursing in disbelief :: > # pwd > bash: pwd: command not found > :: more cursing in disbelief :: > :: wondering how far it got :: > :: more cursing in disbelief :: > :: realizing it got too damn far :: > :: realizing that the tape backup should be the first priority :: > :: praying that the error didn't make it to the RAID where all the > important stuff is :: > :: reaching for Redhat CD :: My last one was when I was fooling around with `amd' from the Daemonnews article. # rm -rf /mnt/beast100/usr ^C # (exec some /bin commands, then start cursing with /usr/bin/ is nearly empty.) I had a very strange way of fixing it, partially because I made it worse. Remember, always MAKEDEV all after make installworld. Rebooting with (4) devices in /dev isn't fun. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 21 23:25:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2650537B416 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-134-183.dial.proxad.net [62.147.134.183]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6705F7CB for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:51:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 5031 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Apr 2002 05:51:01 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:51:01 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020422055100.GA4956@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020419080009.L30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20020421214219.GA4662@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Apr 22, 2002 at 00:33:54: > At 11:42 PM +0200 2002/04/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Ideally there would be another hotkey combination to cycle through > > windows related to the application. But cycling in a fixed sequence > > rather than using a "stack" -- *that* is a pain in the butt. > > So, - would always pop the stack? And this > stack-popping is started all over again whenever any keyboard or > mouse events are passed through to the application below? Hmmm... > Interesting concept. But what happens if the mouse is accidentally > moved while popping the stack? I don't quite follow you. The stack is ordered in sequence of which window (or, in OS X, which application) had the last focus -- that is, every time you bring the focus to an application, you move it to the top of the stack. Doing alt-tab once will bring up the application which previously had the focus. Holding down alt, and pressing tab repeatedly, goes through the stack until you get the window you want. I don't see what the mouse has to do with it. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 22 3:41:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from soulshock.mail.pas.earthlink.net (soulshock.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496D837B41D for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 03:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by soulshock.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3M8f3w15370 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0030.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.30] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16zZNX-0005ux-00; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:40:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC3CC7B.C08A5A83@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:40:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Paul Traina , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: how do I turn off all freebsd demons? References: <20020421154221.S42854-100000@sasami.jurai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Paul Traina wrote: > > I am a Christian, and I have been informed that FreeBSD invokes the > > power of the devil through demons. I wish to sanctify my operating > > system and exorcise all these demons. Can you tell me how? > > > > See below... > > http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html > > If we've got a hookup with the dark one how come our marketshare is so > low? Generally, demons will get all the exorsize they need to keep healthy, simply taking care of the daily operation of your system. If you have a particular demon that is becoming fat, dumb, and lazy, or is otherwise unable to meet its obligations to the dark master, you can report it to the dark master directly: mailto:dark.master@microsoft.com Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 22 9:14:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693DA37B431 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.38] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3MAaYk07554; Mon, 22 Apr 2002 06:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020422055100.GA4956@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020419080009.L30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20020421214219.GA4662@lpt.ens.fr> <20020422055100.GA4956@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:17:23 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:51 AM +0200 2002/04/22, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Holding down alt, and pressing tab > repeatedly, goes through the stack until you get the window you want. Well, there would be - to move forward by application, -- to move backward by application, and then you would also need -