From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 3: 3:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eastgate.starhub.net.sg (eastgate.starhub.net.sg [203.116.1.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6552E37B403 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 03:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from support.antlabs.com (IDENT:qmailr@[203.117.181.13]) by eastgate.starhub.net.sg (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g4CA3LGN001462 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 18:03:21 +0800 (SST) Received: (qmail 3705 invoked from network); 12 May 2002 10:17:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) (192.168.20.75) by 0 with SMTP; 12 May 2002 10:17:40 -0000 Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g496bnx28857; Thu, 9 May 2002 07:37:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:37:49 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020509073749.A83030@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <3CD9354E.41CBCEF6@pythonemproject.com> <20020508164424.H30997@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020508164424.H30997@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Wed, May 08, 2002 at 04:44:24PM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 08, 2002 at 04:44:24PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > 5. You can do the equivalent of "make fetch" which will fetch all the > source files, not only for your required ebuild, but for its > dependencies too. So you could do the downloading at work and the > compiling at home, for example. make fetch-recursive The other features sounds pretty nice though. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE82hk8k6gHZCw343URAjgzAJ0XYu1YhSl/BXLbjjO0rbEtnYBhGwCbB1/F xTZ2yR8NBs1szFxGW+4fiZ8= =ziQT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 13:48:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (dsl-64-130-18-61.telocity.com [64.130.18.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26EE237B401 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 13:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 72874 invoked by uid 85); 12 May 2002 20:47:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 16:47:47 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GO SENS GO! Message-ID: <20020512164747.A72342@shazam.wetworks.org> References: <20010511214317.3D5F83F3F@bast.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20010511214317.3D5F83F3F@bast.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Fri, May 10, 2002 at 09:40:35PM -0400 From: "Alan B. Clegg" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.52 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) X-TMDA-Fingerprint: qBY5YZU1AYDwxdNoTOXrkZ0bFjQ X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless the network is lying to me again, Dan Langille said:=20 > repeat.... "Go Canes" http://www.carolinahurricanes.com AlanC --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE83tTzyJP8xSfQVdsRAvU9AJ9aeiRcqqfDeyDSAZ1xWPaM1lR3WACfeaTK HktgnOyaqgsvoQmV+Q+SCEI= =mAiu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 14:43:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3493037B405 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 14:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A85B3F3F; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:46:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: "Alan B. Clegg" Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 17:43:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GO SENS GO! Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20020512164747.A72342@shazam.wetworks.org> References: <20010511214317.3D5F83F3F@bast.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Fri, May 10, 2002 at 09:40:35PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20010513174635.0A85B3F3F@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 May 2002 at 16:47, Alan B. Clegg wrote: > Unless the network is lying to me again, Dan Langille said: > > > repeat.... > > "Go Canes" http://www.carolinahurricanes.com GO SENS GO! (in fact, it's about 1h 22m to game time). -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 18:37:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.smashpow.com (mail.smashpow.net [216.235.9.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3696137B407 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 18:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smashpow.net (mail.smashpow.net [216.235.9.194]) by mail.smashpow.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED2E46 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 18:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 18:12:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Agent Drek To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GO SENS GO! In-Reply-To: <20010513174635.0A85B3F3F@bast.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 May 2002, Dan Langille wrote: > Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 17:43:41 -0400 > From: Dan Langille > To: Alan B. Clegg > Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" > Subject: Re: GO SENS GO! > > On 12 May 2002 at 16:47, Alan B. Clegg wrote: > > > Unless the network is lying to me again, Dan Langille said: > > > > > repeat.... > > > > "Go Canes" http://www.carolinahurricanes.com > > GO SENS GO! (in fact, it's about 1h 22m to game time). > GO LEAFS GO!!! (sorry had to!) -- Derek Marshall Smash and Pow Inc > 'digital plumber' http://www.smashpow.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 19: 4:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0B8137B403 for ; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22985 invoked by uid 100); 13 May 2002 02:04:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15583.7978.734558.343517@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 21:04:26 -0500 To: Agent Drek Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GO SENS GO! In-Reply-To: References: <20010513174635.0A85B3F3F@bast.unixathome.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.54 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In , Agent Drek typed: > On Sun, 12 May 2002, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 12 May 2002 at 16:47, Alan B. Clegg wrote: > > > > repeat.... > > > "Go Canes" http://www.carolinahurricanes.com > > GO SENS GO! (in fact, it's about 1h 22m to game time). > GO LEAFS GO!!! BOOMER SOONER! > (sorry had to!) I understand completely. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 19: 4:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BC337B401; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7FF3681066; Mon, 13 May 2002 11:34:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 11:34:50 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: Garrett Wollman , Luigi Rizzo , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c Message-ID: <20020513113450.C8222@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205122043.g4CKhod56192@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020512230017.GB4770@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020512163100.A26082@iguana.icir.org> <200205122343.g4CNhP7X023643@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020513092718.A13919@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020513012619.GA1967@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020513012619.GA1967@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Sunday, 12 May 2002 at 18:26:19 -0700, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:27:18AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Sunday, 12 May 2002 at 19:43:25 -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote: >>> < said: >>>> I know, >>>> but >>>> sometimes >>>> it is >>>> unavoidable >>>> to move >>>> to 4 >>>> spaces. >>> >>> If the code is >>> lined up down >>> the right hand >>> side of the >>> screen, then >>> it almost >>> certainly >>> needs to be >>> refactored -- >>> not >>> reindented! >> >> If the code is lined up down the right hand side of the screen, >> then maybe it's the screen which needs to be remade, not the >> code. Why should we still live in the shadow of punched cards? > > The argument that code looks better or is more readable when > indented with 4 spaces as compared to 8 spaces can be applied > recursively and transitively to yield that code looks better > or is more readable when not indented at all. Since this is > obviously a silly statement, I can only conclude that the whole > reasoning is flawed. The argument that code looks better or is more readable when indented with 8 spaces as compared to 4 spaces can be applied recursively and transitively to yield that code looks better or is more readable when indented an infinite amount. Since this is obviously an even more silly statement, I can only conclude that the whole metareasoning is flawed, or that 4 spaces are better than 8. > The eternally recurring style(9) debate is the other dead givaway > that it's not solving anything, but rather creates problems. I'm not really attacking style(9) here (I'll reserve that for some other time :-), I'm just pointing out that there are alternative arguments. Times change. For example, many programming languages *do* have no indentation. > \begin{brainfart} > CRA n. > Compulsive Reintenders Anonymous. A support group > for people with an unnatural tendency to reindent > anything not indented with their favorite spacing. > \end{brainfart} > > ;-) > > (sorry, couldn't resist and I'm probably going to be > very sorry I put it here) Especially when people point out that it was done with the best of (re)intentions? :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 19:18:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kayak.xcllnt.net (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C84437B403; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (athlon.pn.xcllnt.net [192.168.4.3]) by kayak.xcllnt.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g4D2I9J99561; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@kayak.pn.xcllnt.net) Received: from athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4D2I8uJ002201; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net) Received: (from marcel@localhost) by athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4D2I8Rd002200; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 19:18:08 -0700 From: Marcel Moolenaar To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Garrett Wollman , Luigi Rizzo , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c Message-ID: <20020513021808.GA2180@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> References: <200205122043.g4CKhod56192@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020512230017.GB4770@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020512163100.A26082@iguana.icir.org> <200205122343.g4CNhP7X023643@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020513092718.A13919@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020513012619.GA1967@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> <20020513113450.C8222@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020513113450.C8222@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:34:50AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > The argument that code looks better or is more readable when > > indented with 4 spaces as compared to 8 spaces can be applied > > recursively and transitively to yield that code looks better > > or is more readable when not indented at all. Since this is > > obviously a silly statement, I can only conclude that the whole > > reasoning is flawed. > > The argument that code looks better or is more readable when indented > with 8 spaces as compared to 4 spaces can be applied recursively and > transitively to yield that code looks better or is more readable when > indented an infinite amount. Precisely. It's just as silly. > I'm not really attacking style(9) here (I'll reserve that for some > other time :-), I'm just pointing out that there are alternative > arguments. Times change. For example, many programming languages > *do* have no indentation. No argument. > > \begin{brainfart} > > CRA n. > > Compulsive Reintenders Anonymous. A support group > > for people with an unnatural tendency to reindent > > anything not indented with their favorite spacing. > > \end{brainfart} > > Especially when people point out that it was done with the best of > (re)intentions? :-) Bollocks... Of all the words in all the sentences I had to make a typo there... :-( Ah, well... -- Marcel Moolenaar USPA: A-39004 marcel@xcllnt.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 19:20:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4514237B403; Sun, 12 May 2002 19:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a142.otenet.gr [212.205.215.142]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4D2KkG1000822; Mon, 13 May 2002 05:20:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4D2KkIv051512; Mon, 13 May 2002 05:20:46 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4D2Kj5g051453; Mon, 13 May 2002 05:20:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 05:20:44 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Marcel Moolenaar , Garrett Wollman , Luigi Rizzo , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c Message-ID: <20020513022044.GA51267@hades.hell.gr> References: <200205122043.g4CKhod56192@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020512230017.GB4770@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020512163100.A26082@iguana.icir.org> <200205122343.g4CNhP7X023643@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020513092718.A13919@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020513012619.GA1967@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> <20020513113450.C8222@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020513113450.C8222@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-13 11:34, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > [moved to -chat] > > The eternally recurring style(9) debate is the other dead givaway > > that it's not solving anything, but rather creates problems. > > I'm not really attacking style(9) here (I'll reserve that for some > other time :-), I'm just pointing out that there are alternative > arguments. Times change. For example, many programming languages > *do* have no indentation. Why did this make me think of IOCCC? *grin* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 12 23:19:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6E837B404; Sun, 12 May 2002 23:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0246.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.246] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1779BJ-00047s-00; Sun, 12 May 2002 23:19:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3CDF5ADB.B1EF69D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 23:19:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Garrett Wollman , Luigi Rizzo , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c References: <200205122043.g4CKhod56192@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020512230017.GB4770@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020512163100.A26082@iguana.icir.org> <200205122343.g4CNhP7X023643@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020513092718.A13919@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020513012619.GA1967@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> <20020513113450.C8222@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020513021808.GA2180@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:34:50AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > The argument that code looks better or is more readable when > > > indented with 4 spaces as compared to 8 spaces can be applied > > > recursively and transitively to yield that code looks better > > > or is more readable when not indented at all. Since this is > > > obviously a silly statement, I can only conclude that the whole > > > reasoning is flawed. > > > > The argument that code looks better or is more readable when indented > > with 8 spaces as compared to 4 spaces can be applied recursively and > > transitively to yield that code looks better or is more readable when > > indented an infinite amount. > > Precisely. It's just as silly. The original argument was that a tab took one byte to store, and four spaces took four bytes to store, so in any average program, you were adding an average of 1.5 bytes of storage, per line, and if you wanted to see 4 character tabs, you could do that by setting the tab stops on your terminal to 4 instead of 8. The sampe people tend to get anal about putting "{" below the "if", and trailing spaces on lines (apart from the tools arguments aginst both practices, which are usually lost on EMACS geeks...). Not as much of a problem as it used to be, in the days of 160K floppies. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 0:54:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05ECA37B403; Mon, 13 May 2002 00:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 910A5239A0D; Mon, 13 May 2002 00:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 00:54:07 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20020509234902.GL582@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qngN6uuxP6gxHZuU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --qngN6uuxP6gxHZuU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-05-09 23:31 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > On 09-May-2002 Gregory Sutter wrote: > >=20 > > I am going surfing in 45 minutes. How's that for relevant? :) >=20 > Is Andrew corrupting you now? Well actually, yes. Since I knew I was moving to San Diego, I planned to learn to surf... but Andrew saying "Let's surf" makes it a lot easier to duck out of work early. I went again today. The water is still pretty cold--wetsuit required--but there were pelicans diving for fish all around, and the sunset made the western sky into a hazy rainbow. It's quite a sight when viewed from a surfboard bobbing in the sea. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Madness takes its toll. =20 mailto:gsutter@zer0.org Please have exact change. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --qngN6uuxP6gxHZuU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE833EfIBUx1YRd/t0RArMfAJ43EQR7V/itKD4hiI9KDYGq9920/wCfbHEw csGt5VNBgQ7lFYbB7Gm5YhY= =p2/b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qngN6uuxP6gxHZuU-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 1: 3: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (h-66-166-75-170.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.166.75.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E08237B400; Mon, 13 May 2002 01:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id g4D832e84427; Mon, 13 May 2002 01:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 01:03:02 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Gregory Sutter Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020513080302.GA84392@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20020509234902.GL582@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:54:07AM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2002-05-09 23:31 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 09-May-2002 Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > > > I am going surfing in 45 minutes. How's that for relevant? :) > > > > Is Andrew corrupting you now? > > Well actually, yes. Since I knew I was moving to San Diego, I > planned to learn to surf... but Andrew saying "Let's surf" makes > it a lot easier to duck out of work early. > > I went again today. The water is still pretty cold--wetsuit > required--but there were pelicans diving for fish all around, > and the sunset made the western sky into a hazy rainbow. It's > quite a sight when viewed from a surfboard bobbing in the sea. Hopefully a shark will not view you as a meal.... Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 6:14:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE8B37B405; Mon, 13 May 2002 06:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4DDESH22439 ; Mon, 13 May 2002 15:14:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA55839 ; Mon, 13 May 2002 15:14:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 15:14:28 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nik Clayton Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020513151428.A55614@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CD9354E.41CBCEF6@pythonemproject.com> <20020508164424.H30997@lpt.ens.fr> <20020509073749.A83030@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020509073749.A83030@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 07:37:49AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton said on May 9, 2002 at 07:37:49: > On Wed, May 08, 2002 at 04:44:24PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > 5. You can do the equivalent of "make fetch" which will fetch all the > > source files, not only for your required ebuild, but for its > > dependencies too. So you could do the downloading at work and the > > compiling at home, for example. > > make fetch-recursive Hm, just tried it. It goes and fetches distfiles for *all* dependencies, whether already installed or not. Is there anything which will fetch only what actually needs to be installed? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 7:12:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078CD37B406 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 07:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg1.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg1.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.119]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g4DEC7R26224 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 10:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (unverified) by nmrusdunsxg1.nielsenmedia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 10:11:42 -0400 Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 13 May 2002 10:12:05 -0400 Message-ID: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB0956901E33CBB@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David" To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Backups and such Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:11:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's lots of suggestions, but I don't see any clear winners in this discussion. Amanda looks nice, but it can't handle backups across split volumes. Yuck. My bigger partitions are 3X the size of the biggest tape I have. And I don't have a whole lot of disk space to use for buffering, either. I have several 15G filesystems (in use, that is), and I don't have much free space anywhere. A multivolume dump to tape works, and is the current solution - but its slow over the network - the speed of the tape and the speed of the net don't match well, causing the tape to go to stop-start mode. Amanda gets around that by using a local disk as the buffer (we do the same here at work, where our databases are in the 100's of Gigs. But here they can afford mutliple tape robot silos...) Oh yes, that reminds me, tape is also damned expensive. Especially compared to the $/Gig of the current IDE drives. The typical home user isn't going to see the cost effectiveness of backups, at this rate. (There were some cheap tape drives on E-bay recently - nearly fainted when I priced the media. To back up my 20G drive (once) I would need to spend 80% of its cost, in media.) We need something better. Even recordable DVDs are too small, we need 100G or better, removeable storage, at an inexpensive price. Its tempting to say it can be real slow - but - it can't - we need to be able to do backups in a reasonable amount of time. Is there anything that can beat the $/Mb of hard disks? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 9: 8:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246D937B407 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 09:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B031C7567; Mon, 13 May 2002 09:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6C51D94; Mon, 13 May 2002 09:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eric Anderson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backing up my CDs [was Re: My horror story] In-Reply-To: <3CDC1339.AF6DE0B7@centtech.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 May 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: :Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :> > the problem is that home storage has far outstripped the ability of home :> > backup systems. while you can buy a hard drive that can store 60gb for :> > about USD$120 these days, getting a tape drive system that can do the same :> > per tape will set you back around USD$2,000, not counting the cost of the :> > tapes. :> :> So how about buying two or more hard drives and striping/mirroring :> them, eg vinum? : :Striping will only lessen your redundancy, but mirroring will help.. Many new :motherboards have built in IDE RAID (level 0,1) now, and they work very well. :Usually, I slap another drive in, and have tar's (compressed) run via cron. Mirroring only helps with redundancy due to hardware failure. I've seen multiple mirrors perfectly working with unusable filesystems on them due to metadata problems. RAID[0|1|0+1|3|3+1|5|5+1...n|n+1] is not in any way shape or form a replacement for backups. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 10:43:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 379C037B403 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 10:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 859 invoked by uid 100); 13 May 2002 17:43:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15583.64297.706303.640245@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:43:05 -0500 To: "Gray, David" Cc: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Re: Backups and such In-Reply-To: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB0956901E33CBB@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> References: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB0956901E33CBB@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.54 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB0956901E33CBB@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com>, Gray, David typed: > A multivolume dump to tape works, and is the current > solution - but its slow over the network - the speed > of the tape and the speed of the net don't match well, > causing the tape to go to stop-start mode. Just out of curiosity, have you tried not using the rmt protocol, but using rsh (or ssh) to copy the data over? Some work done at stanford in the early nineties showed that rmt was *very* slow, and simply doing "rsh dump | dd " was faster. I confirmed that result going to a disk buffer. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 11: 9:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF90137B40A for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 11:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg1.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg1.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.119]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g4DI9RR08404 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 14:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (unverified) by nmrusdunsxg1.nielsenmedia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 13 May 2002 14:09:02 -0400 Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 13 May 2002 14:09:25 -0400 Message-ID: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB0956901E33CC1@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David" To: "'Mike Meyer'" Cc: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: RE: Backups and such Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:09:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, thats pretty much the way I do that. Its a bear though, when the machine in question needs a complete restore from tape... Between tcp wrappers, rsh being turned off (by default) *and* living in /usr, etc, etc, it was an all day (ok, night) affair the last time I lost a drive (5 1/4", 9G Seagate, did NOT like the amt. of ventilation in that cabinet.) -----Original Message----- From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 1:43 PM To: Gray, David Cc: 'FreeBSD Chat List' Subject: Re: Backups and such In <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB0956901E33CBB@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com>, Gray, David typed: > A multivolume dump to tape works, and is the current > solution - but its slow over the network - the speed > of the tape and the speed of the net don't match well, > causing the tape to go to stop-start mode. Just out of curiosity, have you tried not using the rmt protocol, but using rsh (or ssh) to copy the data over? Some work done at stanford in the early nineties showed that rmt was *very* slow, and simply doing "rsh dump | dd " was faster. I confirmed that result going to a disk buffer. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 17:31:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F9C37B408; Mon, 13 May 2002 17:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 71A08812FC; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:01:02 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:01:02 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Bill Fenner Cc: wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu, luigi@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c Message-ID: <20020514100102.Z47359@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205122043.g4CKhod56192@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020512230017.GB4770@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020512163100.A26082@iguana.icir.org> <200205122343.g4CNhP7X023643@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020513092718.A13919@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200205131858.LAA20576@windsor.research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200205131858.LAA20576@windsor.research.att.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to chat] On Monday, 13 May 2002 at 11:58:14 -0700, Bill Fenner wrote: > >> If the code is lined up down the right hand side of the screen, >> then maybe it's the screen which needs to be remade, not the >> code. Why should we still live in the shadow of punched cards? > > This would be much easier if less+xterm didn't choke on long lines. > The original message appeared as: > >> If the code is lined up down the right hand side of the screen, >> then maybe it's the screen which needs to be remade, not the but >> code. Why should we still live in the shadow of punched cards? it is > > in my MUA. Ah, but you didn't read the text. Make your screen wider and it will look OK. In case you haven't noticed, I'm not really serious about all this. There's a good reason (based in the mechanics of the human eye) to keep text lines at below 80 characters, but if you indent them, it's the length from beginning to end that counts, not the distance from the left margin to the end. But this is really a good reason to have less violent indentation. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 21:12:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trot.galis.org (ool-18bdd4e6.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.212.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2336537B400; Mon, 13 May 2002 21:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gx@localhost) by trot.galis.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E4D8F10257; Tue, 14 May 2002 00:13:08 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 00:13:08 -0400 From: George Georgalis To: Gregory Sutter Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020514001308.E8250@trot.haven.dom> References: <20020509234902.GL582@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:54:07AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:54:07AM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >On 2002-05-09 23:31 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >> On 09-May-2002 Gregory Sutter wrote: >> > >> > I am going surfing in 45 minutes. How's that for relevant? :) >> >> Is Andrew corrupting you now? > >Well actually, yes. Since I knew I was moving to San Diego, I >planned to learn to surf... but Andrew saying "Let's surf" makes >it a lot easier to duck out of work early. > >I went again today. The water is still pretty cold--wetsuit >required--but there were pelicans diving for fish all around, >and the sunset made the western sky into a hazy rainbow. It's >quite a sight when viewed from a surfboard bobbing in the sea. > Where did you go out? I know all the breaks. Lived there till I moved to Manhattan recently, now I'm actually in Hoboken, no surf, no snorkeling, no pelicans just geese. // George -- GEORGE GEORGALIS, System Admin/Architect cell: 347-451-8229 Security Services, Web, Mail, mailto:george@galis.org File, Print, DB and DNS Servers. http://www.galis.org/george To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 21:32: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C3937B405 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 21:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D3048239A0B; Mon, 13 May 2002 21:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:31:57 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: George Georgalis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020514043157.GM20202@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20020509234902.GL582@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020514001308.E8250@trot.haven.dom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="l3ej7W/Jb2pB3qL2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020514001308.E8250@trot.haven.dom> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --l3ej7W/Jb2pB3qL2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-05-14 00:13 -0400, George Georgalis wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:54:07AM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > >On 2002-05-09 23:31 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > >> On 09-May-2002 Gregory Sutter wrote: > >> >=20 > >> > I am going surfing in 45 minutes. How's that for relevant? :) > >>=20 > >> Is Andrew corrupting you now? > > > >Well actually, yes. Since I knew I was moving to San Diego, I > >planned to learn to surf... but Andrew saying "Let's surf" makes > >it a lot easier to duck out of work early. > > > >I went again today. The water is still pretty cold--wetsuit > >required--but there were pelicans diving for fish all around, > >and the sunset made the western sky into a hazy rainbow. It's > >quite a sight when viewed from a surfboard bobbing in the sea. >=20 > Where did you go out? I know all the breaks. Lived there till I moved to > Manhattan recently, now I'm actually in Hoboken, no surf, no snorkeling, > no pelicans just geese. Well, I live in Pacific Beach, 2 blocks from the beach, so I like to go out by the pier. Saves driving with the surfboard on the car. I also like La Jolla Shores, Del Mar, Tourmaline. I haven't surfed Windandsea yet. I'm still a newbie at this; I'll get there. I'm sorry to hear about your New Jersey. You'll have to come back to visit. Do you have any surf suggestions for me in the meantime? :) Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter When everybody's out to get you, mailto:gsutter@zer0.org paranoia is just good thinking. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --l3ej7W/Jb2pB3qL2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE84JM9IBUx1YRd/t0RAuXPAJ91SHhqrnKrhDxS88nARPLlQ1yZKQCfexBr x5EjxPpMwk2YP4AbkMs6+x4= =c6Mz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --l3ej7W/Jb2pB3qL2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 22: 8:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trot.galis.org (ool-18bdd4e6.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.212.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8570437B403 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 22:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gx@localhost) by trot.galis.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E59DW10799; Tue, 14 May 2002 01:09:13 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 01:09:13 -0400 From: George Georgalis To: Gregory Sutter Cc: George Georgalis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection Message-ID: <20020514010913.I8250@trot.haven.dom> References: <20020509234902.GL582@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020513075407.GA76054@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020514001308.E8250@trot.haven.dom> <20020514043157.GM20202@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020514043157.GM20202@klapaucius.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:31:57PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:31:57PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >On 2002-05-14 00:13 -0400, George Georgalis wrote: >> On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:54:07AM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >On 2002-05-09 23:31 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 09-May-2002 Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> > >> >> > I am going surfing in 45 minutes. How's that for relevant? :) >> >> >> >> Is Andrew corrupting you now? >> > >> >Well actually, yes. Since I knew I was moving to San Diego, I >> >planned to learn to surf... but Andrew saying "Let's surf" makes >> >it a lot easier to duck out of work early. >> > >> >I went again today. The water is still pretty cold--wetsuit >> >required--but there were pelicans diving for fish all around, >> >and the sunset made the western sky into a hazy rainbow. It's >> >quite a sight when viewed from a surfboard bobbing in the sea. >> >> Where did you go out? I know all the breaks. Lived there till I moved to >> Manhattan recently, now I'm actually in Hoboken, no surf, no snorkeling, >> no pelicans just geese. > >Well, I live in Pacific Beach, 2 blocks from the beach, so I like to >go out by the pier. Saves driving with the surfboard on the car. >I also like La Jolla Shores, Del Mar, Tourmaline. I haven't surfed >Windandsea yet. I'm still a newbie at this; I'll get there. > >I'm sorry to hear about your New Jersey. You'll have to come back to >visit. Do you have any surf suggestions for me in the meantime? :) Well Blacks is Biggest! The underwater canyon focuses the waves. Watch out for the weirdos there. You can't park on the streets like before, and there's the hike up... almost easier to walk up from Scripps -- or just go out at Scripps. I only caught a few waves at wind'n'sea, not exactly my style. Much better body surfing there, but watch out for the surfers! Can't beat the chicks at wind'n'sea! Speaking of body surfing, Marine St, between Marine St and Sea Lane by the TacoBell on La Jolla Blvd is prob the all around best in the continental US. There's reefs visible south and north, Little Rock and Horseshoe but those breaks are for the experienced. Hospitals (further north) is a good intermediate for surfing, but can be serious too. Learn the rocks when the waves are small. Don't forget to pick up a mask, snorkel and fins for the Cove. The water is clearest now before it warms up. AM is best. :) I lived in PB in the late 80s, on Loring near Beryl, so that's where I went out a lot. And NJ is not too bad, I'm :15 from my door to Manhattan (the city that never sleeps) and I don't even need a car, my town is quiet and clean -- shouldn't complain, but I'll be back to CA too. // George -- GEORGE GEORGALIS, System Admin/Architect cell: 347-451-8229 Security Services, Web, Mail, mailto:george@galis.org File, Print, DB and DNS Servers. http://www.galis.org/george To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 22:27:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jpcampbell.com (adsl-64-164-212-130.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.164.212.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26D137B403 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 22:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.jpcampbell.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5204A708C; Mon, 13 May 2002 22:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 22:27:25 -0700 From: "John P. Campbell" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: earthquake Message-ID: <20020514052724.GA70507@jpcampbell.com> Reply-To: jcampbell@intacct.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone in the SF bay area just feel that?=20 jpc --=20 John P. Campbell Intacct Corporation 408-395-0961 public key available at www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint =3D 5FA6 FE30 CE8B 3EE2 63F7 3833 364A 7DA1 3A6B 656A --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE84KA8Nkp9oTprZWoRAietAJ42CbIUV1NRfv1XaxcTYR6qzuov3gCfYHKH i3/sjnwFh+vGYstVYP5Jl6Q= =MOVL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 22:34:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.gigguardian.com (vven-216.sjc.ca.bbnow.net [24.219.11.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114FF37B404 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 22:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from europa (europa.gigguardian.com [192.168.1.2]) by hades.gigguardian.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4E5YVQ93920; Mon, 13 May 2002 22:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vhm3@hades.gigguardian.com) From: "Chip McClure" To: , Subject: RE: earthquake Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 22:34:31 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <20020514052724.GA70507@jpcampbell.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yep - sure did. 5.2 on the Richter scale. Lasted about 30 seconds, followed by a few small tremors. http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/shake/STORE/X40133364/ciim_display.html (I'm in south San Jose) Chip - -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of John P. Campbell Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:27 PM To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: earthquake Anyone in the SF bay area just feel that? jpc - -- John P. Campbell Intacct Corporation 408-395-0961 public key available at www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 5FA6 FE30 CE8B 3EE2 63F7 3833 364A 7DA1 3A6B 656A -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBPOChy5uKtP8CSC69EQL7aQCeMKm3J6e2IiqGO3Yj0tSoZSNHxTEAoKzp HkwjpkFtOGHKG4kd5A89PXOf =nM4X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 13 23: 1:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B6337B403 for ; Mon, 13 May 2002 23:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0280.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.25] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 177VNN-0003eH-00; Mon, 13 May 2002 23:01:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE0A808.F278434@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 23:00:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip McClure Cc: jcampbell@intacct.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: earthquake References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip McClure wrote: > Yep - sure did. 5.2 on the Richter scale. Lasted about 30 seconds, > followed by a few small tremors. > > http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/shake/STORE/X40133364/ciim_display.html > > (I'm in south San Jose) It was just South of Gilroy. People felt it all the way up to Sacramento, apparently. I felt it here (between San Mateo and Burlingame); it was amazingly periodic, with around a one second periodicity, for a total of 9 seconds (there was a clacking in the sidewalk outside that kept time with the shaking). Really strange quake, and I've been through a lot of them, including being near the epicenter in a 6.2, in Utah. The regularity of the shaking was really, really surprising to me... the chandelier moved, and the window shades swung, but my wine glasses didn't even clink. Not like any other Earthquake I've ever been in... totally bizarre. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 14 0:45:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rigel.grass.st (rigel.grass.st [195.197.32.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E020237B403 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 00:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by rigel.grass.st (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA37594 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 14 May 2002 10:45:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from bsdchat) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:45:24 +0300 From: mika ruohotie To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: hackers@freebsd.org broken? Message-ID: <20020514104524.A37246@rigel.grass.st> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org uh, i'm going to "complain" here since my emails to postmaster have been unanswered for about a week now... anyway, i havent gotten any new hackers@ emails since apr 26th, if i do a "which" i get an error back, if i try to re-sub i get an error back complaining that my email address which clearly has a @ would not have a @ (majordomo is able to return an error email into that addy). all my other freebsd list subscriptions work as expected... anyone else with a similar problems? mickey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 14 3:36:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69C937B407; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 2DD4D535E; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:36:07 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Nik Clayton , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Finally a Linux with a ports collection References: <3CD9354E.41CBCEF6@pythonemproject.com> <20020508164424.H30997@lpt.ens.fr> <20020509073749.A83030@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20020513151428.A55614@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 May 2002 12:36:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020513151428.A55614@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Hm, just tried it. It goes and fetches distfiles for *all* > dependencies, whether already installed or not. Is there anything > which will fetch only what actually needs to be installed? porteasy -fe DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 14 9:30:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7C637B408 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 09:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07154 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 12:30:27 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020510185417.01b10b68@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 18:57:01 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Backing up my CDs [was Re: My horror story] In-Reply-To: <20020510150347.K40234-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020510162257.01a40008@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:08 PM 5/10/2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: >On Fri, 10 May 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > > For an extra hundred dollars, you can even get some external/USB > > 2.0/IEEE-1394 hard drives with decent capacities. > >under USB 2.0 that'd work, but you still have the problems of moving it >between machines and architectures, i think. I've seen quite a few devices that boast USB 1.1 and 2.0 compatibility, so it may be possible to find a 60+ GB external drive that can support both standards. I don't know USB 1.1 from 2.0, so I never knew if this dual-mode operation was a feature of the device in question or just part of the backwards compatibility inherent in USB 2.0. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 14 16:25: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDDF37B415 for ; Tue, 14 May 2002 16:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09306; Fri, 10 May 2002 10:43:33 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020510102231.032de900@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:26:48 -0600 To: "Taylor Dondich" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: My horror story In-Reply-To: <000701c1f804$47d5dc00$6401a8c0@penguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:23 AM 5/10/2002, Taylor Dondich wrote: >Now, as I turned to my internal DNS server, I felt a shiver go >down my spine. The errors were different, fsck was complaining more, it >just wouldn't let me go through it. I didn't have enough experience in >fsck, my hands became sweaty, I wiped my brow with a Microsoft EULA, it was >getting late. > >After many attempts, all bearing no fruit, I lowered my head and said my >goodbyes. My server was gone. Alas, named keeps its data in /etc/namedb by default. This is (and probably shouldn't be; it's a legacy UNIX convention) on the root partition, which -- for some unfathomable reason -- does not have softupdates turned on in the FreeBSD default install. This maximizes the impact of a sudden power outage on a domain name server. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 3:32: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.rol.it (mail2.rol.it [193.41.7.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF8E837B403 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 03:31:52 -0700 (PDT) From: subscribe_verba@logos.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Verba Volant Message-Id: <20020515103152.EF8E837B403@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 03:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following email address, "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" has been removed from the Verba Volant Newsletter list. If you did not cancel your email address or you wish to continue receiving Verba Volant, please send an e-mail to subscribe_verba@logos.net Thank you and best regards, Verba Volant To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 7:26:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prox.centtech.com (moat2.centtech.com [206.196.95.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7DB37B407 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 07:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pen.centtech.com (pen.centtech.com [10.177.178.33]) by prox.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FEQq702410 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:26:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4FEQq226656 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:26:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton.centtech.com [10.177.173.77]) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FEQoY26648 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:26:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:26:50 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: internal hosts in email Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just curious if anyone else has a solution for this: I have an internal mail server, which is the SMTP server for our internal hosts, and then a "firewall" mail server (or however you want to call it), that is the SMARTHOST that the internal mail server dumps its mail to when it is bound for non-internal email addresses. The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that the mail passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a security risk. Does anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? This is one of those pseudo security/chat/questions/sendmail things, so it's an informal chat-like discussion topic I guess. :) Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 7:47:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE6B37B403 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 07:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4FElOH96881 ; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA09617 ; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:47:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Eric Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:26:50AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that the mail > passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a security risk. Does > anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? I don't know about the mc files, but how about piping mails through formail (comes with procmail)? formail -I "Received:" would do exactly what you want. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 7:57:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prox.centtech.com (moat2.centtech.com [206.196.95.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A3137B416 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 07:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pen.centtech.com (pen.centtech.com [10.177.178.33]) by prox.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FEux702895; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4FEuxw28204; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton.centtech.com [10.177.173.77]) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FEuwY28197; Wed, 15 May 2002 09:56:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:56:57 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't use procmail, so I'd hate to add another chunk of binary goo to my mail server for that. I'm sure someone has an m4 trick. Thanks for the hints, I'll keep that in mind if we do have to use procmail. Eric Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that the mail > > passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a security risk. Does > > anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? > > I don't know about the mc files, but how about piping mails through > formail (comes with procmail)? > formail -I "Received:" > would do exactly what you want. > > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8: 2:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 90B8A37B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27818 invoked by uid 19192); 15 May 2002 15:03:05 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:03:03 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i X-GPG-Key: 0x727A9DD2 (http://drew.rain3s.net/pubkey.asc) From: Drew Raines Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55+ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > > I have an internal mail server, which is the SMTP server for our > internal hosts, and then a "firewall" mail server (or however you > want to call it), that is the SMARTHOST that the internal mail > server dumps its mail to when it is bound for non-internal email > addresses. Great. > The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that > the mail passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a > security risk. No. If you're concerned because of the software you're running, run better software. > Does anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? Obscurity is not security. MTA's add those fields for a reason. If you ever have to diagnose a mail delivery problem, you'll probably want them there. -- Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:14:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prox.centtech.com (moat2.centtech.com [206.196.95.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33AE37B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pen.centtech.com (pen.centtech.com [10.177.178.33]) by prox.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FFEf703143; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:14:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4FFEfQ29336; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:14:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton.centtech.com [10.177.173.77]) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FFEdY29329; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:14:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:14:39 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Raines Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Raines wrote: [..] > > The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that > > the mail passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a > > security risk. > > No. If you're concerned because of the software you're running, run > better software. I'm concerned about all software that is run on my network, as everyone should be. I'm comfortable with the software that I do have, but I definitely don't trust anything 100%. > > Does anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? > > Obscurity is not security. MTA's add those fields for a reason. If > you ever have to diagnose a mail delivery problem, you'll probably > want them there. True, it alone is not security, and I'm not betting the ranch on it (nor would I ever). On the other hand, less information is a good thing when it comes to your internal nets. From my experience, the more you know about someone's internal network, the more data you have in your "arsenal" for an attack. I understand the reasons for adding the fields, and it is helpful, but I am capable of weighing the positives and negatives of what I am asking, and would like to be able to try both (which means getting sendmail tweaked). Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:24:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C6D1237B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28007 invoked by uid 19192); 15 May 2002 15:24:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:24:46 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i X-GPG-Key: 0x727A9DD2 (http://drew.rain3s.net/pubkey.asc) From: Drew Raines Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55+ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > > True, it alone is not security, and I'm not betting the ranch on it > (nor would I ever). On the other hand, less information is a good > thing when it comes to your internal nets. No, you're betting the ranch on your firewall. Someone would gain intimate knowledge of your internal network anyway should they compromise it. Your SMTP headers are not the source of concern. The only one who'll care about is them is you when you need them. -- Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:35:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC03837B40C for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4FFZgH08039 ; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:35:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA14201 ; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:35:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:35:42 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Drew Raines Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515173542.B12847@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Drew Raines , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu>; from drew-dated-1022685887.50e0d6@rain3s.net on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:24:46AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Raines said on May 15, 2002 at 10:24:46: > > True, it alone is not security, and I'm not betting the ranch on it > > (nor would I ever). On the other hand, less information is a good > > thing when it comes to your internal nets. > > No, you're betting the ranch on your firewall. I don't see that. First, he didn't say he had a firewall, only a '"firewall" mail server' which sounded like a loose description for a mail relay to the outside world. Maybe some of the machines are exposed to the outside, maybe deliberately so. Second, > Someone would gain > intimate knowledge of your internal network anyway should they > compromise it. But that's a worst case scenario. Why make it easier for the kiddies? Keeping knowledge of the internal machine names secret would not stop serious intruders, but it would stop (or at least slow down) script kiddies who're just looking for vulnerable machines on the net. No need to announce your machine names to the wide world. As for your concern about "needing" those headers: if they get as far as the "firewall mail server" which would munge them, they weren't needed. So if you see bounced mail from outside or from your "firewall mail server" you don't care. If the problem was in the internal network and they didn't get that far, the headers won't be touched. If it's message delays (in the internal network) which you want to keep track of, you can look at the internal mails which preserve those headers, and it's pretty easy to track such things anyway. I don't see what you're worried about. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:39:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prox.centtech.com (moat2.centtech.com [206.196.95.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CC037B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pen.centtech.com (pen.centtech.com [10.177.178.33]) by prox.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FFdD703564; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:39:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4FFdCa00554; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:39:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton.centtech.com [10.177.173.77]) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FFdBY00547; Wed, 15 May 2002 10:39:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:39:11 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Raines Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Raines wrote: > > True, it alone is not security, and I'm not betting the ranch on it > > (nor would I ever). On the other hand, less information is a good > > thing when it comes to your internal nets. > > No, you're betting the ranch on your firewall. Someone would gain > intimate knowledge of your internal network anyway should they > compromise it. How is that? Security is something that takes place throughout the network, not just on the firewall (firewalls in my case). Are you saying it's perfectly safe to bleed internal host information out to the world? What about simply removing the IP addresses, and leaving the hostnames in? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:47:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6B837B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4FFliH10792 ; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:47:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA15358 ; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:47:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:47:44 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Eric Anderson Cc: Drew Raines , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515174744.A13342@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Eric Anderson , Drew Raines , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:39:11AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson said on May 15, 2002 at 10:39:11: > to bleed internal host information out to the world? What about > simply removing the IP addresses, and leaving the hostnames in? Are you referring to the mailserver you're using for these mails? Your internal hostnames seem to have "reserved-range" IP addresses, 10.x.x.x -- they have no meaning outside your intranet and no outside host can route to them. There is nothing you have to worry about -- unless, as Drew said, your firewall is compromised. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:50:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A32F37B41C for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33116 invoked by uid 100); 15 May 2002 15:50:08 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15586.33711.748924.641222@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:50:07 -0500 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Drew Raines , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email In-Reply-To: <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com>, Eric Anderson typed: > Drew Raines wrote: > > > True, it alone is not security, and I'm not betting the ranch on it > > > (nor would I ever). On the other hand, less information is a good > > > thing when it comes to your internal nets. > > No, you're betting the ranch on your firewall. Someone would gain > > intimate knowledge of your internal network anyway should they > > compromise it. > How is that? Security is something that takes place throughout the network, not > just on the firewall (firewalls in my case). Are you saying it's perfectly safe > to bleed internal host information out to the world? What about simply removing > the IP addresses, and leaving the hostnames in? What difference does it make? If they break into a host that can contact an internal host by name, they have that capability. If your goat is running a firewall itself, they can ask it for a list of machines that it will accept messages from. If it's not running a firewall - well, that's not a good thing. If this system is some kind of DNS server, they can ask your DNS server for names, or possibly check the config files. Worst comes to worst, they can always go back to IP address scanning. It's clearly possible to strip the headers, as anonymous remailers do that regularly. I'd suggest looking into one or more of them, to see if they can be configured to do what you want to do. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:58:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 83D5037B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28387 invoked by uid 19192); 15 May 2002 15:59:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:59:00 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515155900.GA16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE27B5F.EB6D7F4F@centtech.com> <20020515152446.GW16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CE2811F.9325CAA7@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i X-GPG-Key: 0x727A9DD2 (http://drew.rain3s.net/pubkey.asc) From: Drew Raines Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55+ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > > Security is something that takes place throughout the network, not > just on the firewall (firewalls in my case). Are you saying it's > perfectly safe to bleed internal host information out to the world? > What about simply removing the IP addresses, and leaving the > hostnames in? You're missing the forest for the trees. Why hide information which is only useful once your firewall is compromised? Why hide information which is trivially learned once your firewall is compromised? Why hide relatively harmless infor- mation which could be useful? Use your energy on something more productive. -- Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 8:59:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B5A37B40C for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1781B2-0004hq-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 08:58:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email In-Reply-To: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 May 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that the > mail passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a security > risk. Does anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? I have sadly done this with postfix (because it offers easy regex way to strip headers). I say sadly because later I learned that the system was used for spam -- so the real goal was to hide the originating system. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 11:29:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1E437B41D for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 11:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0412.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.157] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1783Wp-0001Nf-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 11:29:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:29:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > I don't use procmail, so I'd hate to add another chunk of binary goo to my mail > server for that. I'm sure someone has an m4 trick. Thanks for the hints, I'll > keep that in mind if we do have to use procmail. So the MASQUERADE_AS() and MASQUERADE_DOMAIN() from pages 280 and 281 of the O'Reilly Sendmail book didn't work for you, and after reading /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/README, you've determined that the FEATURE(`allmasquerade') and FEATURE(`masquerade_entire_domain') and FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope') won't do the job? ...Or is it just that you aren't reading the documentation? 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 11:32:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7FD37B409 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 11:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0412.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.157] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1783ZE-0004qa-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 11:32:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE2A986.E9A1F22B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:31:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Raines Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515150303.GU16671@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Raines wrote: > > The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that > > the mail passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a > > security risk. > > No. If you're concerned because of the software you're running, run > better software. > > > Does anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? > > Obscurity is not security. MTA's add those fields for a reason. If > you ever have to diagnose a mail delivery problem, you'll probably > want them there. Certain internal names should not be exposed because they will fail DNS lookup, and therefore will fail origin checking by mail servers which require that email messages be replyable, like God and RFC 821 intended. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 11:56:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (mail.acns.ab.ca [142.179.151.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4B137B406 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4FIuOlo045138; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:56:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g4FIuOaA004842; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:56:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g4FIuO9U004841; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:56:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:56:24 -0600 From: Chad David To: Terry Lambert Cc: anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:29:05AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:29:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Eric Anderson wrote: > > I don't use procmail, so I'd hate to add another chunk of binary goo to my mail > > server for that. I'm sure someone has an m4 trick. Thanks for the hints, I'll > > keep that in mind if we do have to use procmail. > > So the MASQUERADE_AS() and MASQUERADE_DOMAIN() from pages 280 and > 281 of the O'Reilly Sendmail book didn't work for you, and after > reading /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/README, you've determined that > the FEATURE(`allmasquerade') and FEATURE(`masquerade_entire_domain') > and FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope') won't do the job? > > ...Or is it just that you aren't reading the documentation? Actually, he is probably concerned about the envelope, and may want to try FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'). I don't remember for sure, but I do not think allmasquerade implies the envelope. -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year. - Johnathan Swift To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 12:18:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prox.centtech.com (moat2.centtech.com [206.196.95.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D8B37B407 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pen.centtech.com (pen.centtech.com [10.177.178.33]) by prox.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FJIL707110; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:18:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4FJIL913326; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:18:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton.centtech.com [10.177.173.77]) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FJIKo13319; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:18:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE2B47C.5913DAA9@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:18:20 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > So the MASQUERADE_AS() and MASQUERADE_DOMAIN() from pages 280 and > 281 of the O'Reilly Sendmail book didn't work for you, and after > reading /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/README, you've determined that > the FEATURE(`allmasquerade') and FEATURE(`masquerade_entire_domain') > and FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope') won't do the job? > > ...Or is it just that you aren't reading the documentation? > > 8^p. See, this is why I love the freebsd community. Brutal honesty, yet helpful at the same time. The problem with documentation, is that it sucks ass. If you know what you are looking for, it's easy as pie to find what you need, but then, if you know what you are looking for, then hell, who needs the docs but for a few command line switches, etc. This is why sites like the freebsd diary are so helpful - real comments, usage, and solutions to everyday problems. Terry, I'll fig up my Sendmail book and see what page 280/281 have on it. Again, you only would know the page if you knew the feature, if you knew what to look for. Thanks for the bridge for my gap. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 12:24:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E4337B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.37] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4FJMvH00244; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:22:58 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:17:09 +0200 To: anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:56 AM -0500 2002/05/15, Eric Anderson wrote: > I don't use procmail, so I'd hate to add another chunk of binary > goo to my mail server for that. I'm sure someone has an m4 trick. > Thanks for the hints, I'll keep that in mind if we do have to use > procmail. While I agree with the "there's no sense in exposing unnecessary information" philosophy, I'm with Drew on this one. I have yet to hear a valid reason for stripping these headers, outside of anonymous remailers. And even then I wouldn't strip them, but encrypt them instead (so that the information is recoverable if the right key is used). The only sendmail way to solve this problem (so far as I know) is to have a modified sendmail binary that is configured to strip all "Received:" headers (i.e., go hack the source code), and to use that on the inside of your mail firewall. Make sure to use the "real" sendmail binary on the outside. Other MTAs may have other ways to solve this problem, but I am not aware of an easy way to do that with sendmail. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 12:39:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F2B37B406 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0412.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.157] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1784cC-00002a-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE2B942.6C8EDC53@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:38:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chad David Cc: anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chad David wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:29:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Eric Anderson wrote: > > > I don't use procmail, so I'd hate to add another chunk of binary goo to my mail > > > server for that. I'm sure someone has an m4 trick. Thanks for the hints, I'll > > > keep that in mind if we do have to use procmail. > > > > So the MASQUERADE_AS() and MASQUERADE_DOMAIN() from pages 280 and > > 281 of the O'Reilly Sendmail book didn't work for you, and after > > reading /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/README, you've determined that > > the FEATURE(`allmasquerade') and FEATURE(`masquerade_entire_domain') > > and FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope') won't do the job? ******************* > > > > ...Or is it just that you aren't reading the documentation? > > Actually, he is probably concerned about the envelope, and may want to > try FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'). I don't remember for sure, but I ******************* > do not think allmasquerade implies the envelope. Or in a pinch, he could use FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'), and if things were really dire, FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope')... 8-) 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 12:39:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F19637B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-160-233.dial.proxad.net [62.147.160.233]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EB097 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:39:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 951 invoked by uid 1001); 15 May 2002 19:39:05 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:39:05 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: anderson@centtech.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515193905.GA910@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , anderson@centtech.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 15, 2002 at 21:17:09: > The only sendmail way to solve this problem (so far as I know) is > to have a modified sendmail binary that is configured to strip all > "Received:" headers (i.e., go hack the source code), and to use that > on the inside of your mail firewall. Make sure to use the "real" > sendmail binary on the outside. I know next-to-nothing about sendmail, but there is a confRECEIVED_HEADER listed in the README file cited by Terry. One could set that to a blank on all machines on the "inside" of the firewall? But again, if Eric is talking about the same mail setup he's mailing from on this list, he's behind a NAT firewall and his internal hosts have "reserved range" IP addresses, so the whole discussion is rather pointless. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 13:16:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810ED37B408 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-164.wobline.de [212.68.69.172]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4FKFs507421 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:15:55 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4FKFno2032047 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:15:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4FKGQTo008523 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:16:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:16:26 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Majordomo results: which Message-ID: <20020515221626.A8502@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020515162323.409F937B405@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020515162323.409F937B405@hub.freebsd.org>; from Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:23:23AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 10:11PM up 13:29, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, -chat may not be the right place to report / ask about this, but recently I noticed that majordomo@freebsd.org doesn't any longer seem to correctly handle WHICH requests. I just tried sending a WHICH request to majordomo in order to get a nice list of @freebsd.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (I guess I'm subscribed to so many of them that I no longer remember all of them ;-). However, as can be seen in the except I included below, majordomo seems to have problems to handle my request. I *do* know, though, that in January or so it successfully replied to a WHICH request I sent. So - is anyone informed about any changes that may have been done recently which may be causing what I am seeing? It's not really a problem that what I was trying to do does not seem to work - I'm just a little concerned since I know it worked perfectly well before. > >>>> which > > > NOTE: the "which" command does not show subscriptions > to freebsd-announce, freebsd-arch or freebsd-security-notifications > > > The string 'nils@daemon.tisys.org' appears in the following > entries in lists served by Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG: > > >>> Sorry, an error has occurred while processing your request > >>> The caretaker of Majordomo ( Majordomo-Owner@FreeBSD.ORG ) has been notified > >>> of the problem. > Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 13:17:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (mail.acns.ab.ca [142.179.151.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379B637B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 13:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4FKGwlo045574; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:16:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g4FKGwaA005038; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:16:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g4FKGw3H005037; Wed, 15 May 2002 14:16:58 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:16:58 -0600 From: Chad David To: Terry Lambert Cc: Chad David , anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020515141658.A4996@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Chad David , anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <3CE2B942.6C8EDC53@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE2B942.6C8EDC53@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:38:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 12:38:42PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Chad David wrote: > > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:29:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Eric Anderson wrote: > > > > I don't use procmail, so I'd hate to add another chunk of binary goo to my mail > > > > server for that. I'm sure someone has an m4 trick. Thanks for the hints, I'll > > > > keep that in mind if we do have to use procmail. > > > > > > So the MASQUERADE_AS() and MASQUERADE_DOMAIN() from pages 280 and > > > 281 of the O'Reilly Sendmail book didn't work for you, and after > > > reading /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/README, you've determined that > > > the FEATURE(`allmasquerade') and FEATURE(`masquerade_entire_domain') > > > and FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope') won't do the job? > ******************* > > > > > > ...Or is it just that you aren't reading the documentation? > > > > Actually, he is probably concerned about the envelope, and may want to > > try FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'). I don't remember for sure, but I > ******************* > > do not think allmasquerade implies the envelope. > > > Or in a pinch, he could use FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'), and > if things were really dire, FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope')... I didn't see that in your original email. Do we fight now?. I realize with all of the mentoring I've received from the lists I should know when and when not to engage in a flame war, but I'm a slow learner. :-). > 8-) 8-) 8-). > > -- Terry -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year. - Johnathan Swift To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 13:24:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610FF37B409 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4FKOcU04804; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:24:38 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:24:00 +0200 To: Chad David , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Cc: anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 PM -0600 2002/05/15, Chad David wrote: > Actually, he is probably concerned about the envelope, and may want to > try FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'). I don't remember for sure, but I > do not think allmasquerade implies the envelope. None of the masquerading features will do things like removing all the "Received:" headers. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 15: 1:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB37237B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 15:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b174.otenet.gr [212.205.244.182]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4FM1HHL010092; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:01:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4FM1F6m069115; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:01:15 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4FM1DUh069106; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:01:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 01:01:11 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: James Long Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: national security backdoor in FreeBSD. Message-ID: <20020515220110.GB68937@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020515120552.G2674@sunny.localdomain> <20020515133811.A25637@ns.museum.rain.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020515133811.A25637@ns.museum.rain.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Redirected to -chat. ] In message: <20020515133811.A25637@ns.museum.rain.com> James Long writes: > I like the "redundant fallover" servers he mentions. I think that > means that the towers he's using are spaced far enough apart that > if one falls over, it won't knock the one next to it over. *ROTFL* What about an earthquake that shakes the building? - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 15:17:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7A837B406 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 15:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03283 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:17:13 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020515171405.019e7020@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:16:46 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: internal hosts in email In-Reply-To: <3CE2B47C.5913DAA9@centtech.com> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:18 PM 5/15/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: >See, this is why I love the freebsd community. Brutal honesty, yet helpful at >the same time. The problem with documentation, is that it sucks ass. If you >know what you are looking for, it's easy as pie to find what you need, but >then, >if you know what you are looking for, then hell, who needs the docs.... Now Eric, you know good and well that you're supposed to have read every shred of written documentation on an available subject before you step into the FreeBSD Coliseum asking your pedestrian questions. I think I read that in the list charters somewhere. ;-) << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 15:23:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prox.centtech.com (moat2.centtech.com [206.196.95.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAEB37B406 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pen.centtech.com (pen.centtech.com [10.177.178.33]) by prox.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FMN6710119; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:23:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4FMN5j23961; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:23:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton.centtech.com [10.177.173.77]) by pen.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FMN4o23954; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:23:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE2DFC8.6888BAF7@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:23:04 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020515171405.019e7020@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > Now Eric, you know good and well that you're supposed to have read every > shred of written documentation on an available subject before you step into > the FreeBSD Coliseum asking your pedestrian questions. I think I read that > in the list charters somewhere. ;-) Oh yea, I forgot about that. I was so busy reading the documentation on NFS and it's issues, I must have lost that bit of info in the grind. :) Have you ever been looking so hard for something, then, only to realize, that there it is, right in your pocket (hand/wallet/etc) the whole time? Yea, that's how I feel today. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 15:50:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D942537B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 15:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-198.wobline.de [212.68.69.209]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4FMno522571 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 00:49:50 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4FMnio2032537 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 00:49:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4FMoOYA010124 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 00:50:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:49:09 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 11:59PM up 15:17, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.01, 0.04 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (DANGER: This is long and has not much to do with FreeBSD (that's why I posted it to -chat). If you're busy, skip this message now. If not, get yourself a cup of coffee and read on ;-) Hi folks, it's midnight here in Germany - time for me to try to start another not-directly-FreeBSD-related, but still not totally inappropriate thread on this list. What I'm going to talk about below may not be new to you, but I recently talked about this with quite some people, so I thought I'd bring it up here. So let's begin: If you have been watching the computer industry during the last few years, you will have noted an interesting event: Beginning in the middle of the 90's, (computer) technology was seen as *the one great* thing of the future. The Internet became popular for normal people back then, and what followed made me want to puke more than once: Everywhere you looked, no matter if into newspapers, magazines, TV news or whatever, folks were talking about the Internet - despite the fact that they probably didn't even really understand what it was. Even more interesting: Everyone seemed to want to "ride the wave", and many investores piped a whole lot of money into "e-companies", even if they were built on the most brain-dead business plan. These were also the days of the "funky words", when an I or E was appended to normal words in order to make them sound cool, just like "e-commerce", "e-business", "e-book" and so on. Hell, this made me sick - I always thought any sane business man would actually have brains - back in the mid-90s, however, this didn't seem to be the case, as even a product called "e-shit" would probably have been successful back then. (Note that nobody would have asked what kind of product that actually is - as look as it starts with e- it must be good). Now, as you will also have noticed, in the years 2000 and 2001 this mood suddenly started th change. Many dot.com's (another one of these funky words) turned into dot.bomb's. Finally, intelligence was brought back into the e-world - seems that people noticed that you can't really turn a word into money by prepending it with an e-. So far about what has happened. The question, however, is what we can learn from it. Basically, I believe that the computer industry is in serious danger - Moore's Law seems to be self-destructing. What I mean by this? Well, seriously, if I go to a computer shop these days, then I will find a whole lot of hyper-fast machines, but for an ordinary user, these probably wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz one? It seems to me that during the last decades, the industry made constant progress. Taking into account only the view of the ordinary user and not the view of the more advanced hacker, much has changed: At first there was only DOS with its cryptic commands - and since that was "too much" for normal users, they didn't really like that. Then, suddenly (more or less), Bill Gates released Windows, and - hell - now every idiot could point-and-click! Early Windows, up to and including 3.1 was not very nice (I could also use swear words at this point), so a *new* version of Windows followed, called Windows 95. Of course, people had to buy this stuff, and they also had to upgrade their computers or buy new ones every time. Windows 95 finally brought computing even to the people with the lowest IQ, but it was not perfect yet: A new version, Windows 98 (judged by the date of its release, Gates could also have called it "iWindows" or "e-Windows") was released. Now people could do everything: Surf the web, listen to music, burn CDs, watch DVDs, etc. And suddenly - BANG! Seems that the computer industry has nothing to offer beyond that. And that's why it's stuck, having financial problems. Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing new! While the performance of silicon technology may be increasing by whatever insane factor every year, I don't see too many occasions where such performance is actually needed - at least not enough occassions in order to enable computer companies to earn as much money as they did in the past. To come back to the point of most new inventations being "toys", let me give you another example: There are currently (at least) two companies out there working on "electronic paper". One of them is E-Ink, and the other one is something that has recently been spun off from XEROX (I don't remember the company's new name, so I'll just call it XEROX). A few years ago, these companies wanted to make us believe that in the future all newspapers, magazines and books would use their electronic paper - which must be imagines in a way that you probably have one single "sheet" of that stuff, and you don't turn the page, but hit some button or so, and the next page will then be "painted" onto this electronic stuff automatically (or something like that). Interestingly, it seems to me that E-Ink has now stopped working on this stuff, using their discoveries more or less for normal, especially flat and energy-saving displays on mobile devices. XEROX, instead of revolutionizing our newspapers, as they initially claimed, seem to sell "signs" to retailers to put in shops (or wherever). These sings then "update themselves automatically" and always display the latest information / prices / etc. Personally, when I first heard about the stuff E-Ink and XEROX were working on, I already predicted that they would have no success - at least not as far-reaching as their marketting insanity said. The reason for this is simple: I don't see a need for electronic, re-writable paper. After all, we have real paper, which is inexpensive, "easy to use" and convenient to use for somewhat static information. On the other hand, we have well-known computer display technology for "dynamic" information, like web sites. As such, I didn't (and still don't) see a board market for this e-paper toy stuff. It somehow reminds me of the prediction made in the 70's, which basically said that before the next century, offices would work without any paper. Obviously, this didn't happen. Most predictions like this don't happen, and if they do, then mostly a whole lot different that originally imagined. Bottom line (and at this point I really want to stop wasting your bandwidth and precious time): I guess that looking at the computer and electronics company, "all the good ones are taken" or "everything that can (sanely) be done has been done". Of course, the future may bring the one or the other new interesting development, but I don't see many real revolutions anymore, as we seem to have reached a point where going any further does no longer provide any increased benefit. Comments to this - well - rather free-style "essay" are welcome ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 16:15:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from astro.phpwebhosting.com (astro.phpwebhosting.com [66.33.60.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCC1637B401 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18652 invoked by uid 508); 15 May 2002 23:15:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (208.59.106.215) by astro.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 15 May 2002 23:15:02 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:15:04 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: $FreeBSD$ tag in CVS From: James Howard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <96D3C85C-6859-11D6-8342-003065BAAC62@glue.umd.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've asked questions about how this has been done before, and I have successfully created my own tags. But now I am trying to do it on Linux, and it doesn't work. Is this a BSD-specific modification? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 16:33: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D363637B438 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1814 invoked by uid 100); 15 May 2002 23:32:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:32:47 -0500 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org>, Nils Holland typed: > Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a > faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: > For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning > into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be > invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the > new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people > more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for > ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some > folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big > revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to > say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them > enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing > new! You just committed a logical fallacy. You correctly point out that GUIs made computers easier to use or people more productive, then dis talking to the computer because it's *slower* than a GUI. Speed isn't everything, and I'll argue tha GUIs make people *slower*, at least at some tasks. See for a comparison of a typical GUI window manager with a keyboard-driven one. GUIs provide other advantages such that most people aren't willing to drop them in favor of something faster. The real question about an AUI(tm) - Audio User Interface, pronounced owi - is whether or not it will make people more productive or computers easier to use, and do so to an extent that it being slower is irrelevant. > Bottom line (and at this point I really want to stop wasting your bandwidth > and precious time): I guess that looking at the computer and electronics > company, "all the good ones are taken" or "everything that can (sanely) be > done has been done". Of course, the future may bring the one or the other > new interesting development, but I don't see many real revolutions anymore, > as we seem to have reached a point where going any further does no longer > provide any increased benefit. If I knew what the next great computer revolution was going to be, I'd be looking for investors, not reading freebsd-chat. I suspect the same is true for most everyone here. I will say that it probably already exists. The internet existed in the mid 70s, but didn't hit the popular conscious until the mid 90s. Identifying it, that's the hard part. We geeks aren't likely to do so, because we have such poor perception of what jane sixpack really wants. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 16:45:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583B037B409 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 16:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4FNj4U01758; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:45:04 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020515193905.GA910@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <20020515193905.GA910@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 01:36:52 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Cc: anderson@centtech.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:39 PM +0200 2002/05/15, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I know next-to-nothing about sendmail, but there is a > confRECEIVED_HEADER listed in the README file cited by Terry. Interesting. According to the RELEASE_NOTES, that was added in 8.7. Strange that I missed that.... > One > could set that to a blank on all machines on the "inside" of the > firewall? But then, if you had mail problems inside the firewall, a very important diagnostic tool would be taken away from you. Moreover, if you had a loop (user A forwards all mail to user B who forwards all mail to user C who forwards all mail back to user A), by defining this header to be null, you would never break the mail loop and you would probably kill the mail system on a fairly regular basis. The more stuff you have behind the firewall (and the more users), the more likely that this will be a problem, and the more frequent this problem will be. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 17:59:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A354237B422 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b174.otenet.gr [212.205.244.182]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4G0wkHL025321; Thu, 16 May 2002 03:59:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4G0we6m086299; Thu, 16 May 2002 03:58:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4G0we0j086298; Thu, 16 May 2002 03:58:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 03:58:40 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: $FreeBSD$ tag in CVS Message-ID: <20020516005840.GB86249@hades.hell.gr> References: <96D3C85C-6859-11D6-8342-003065BAAC62@glue.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <96D3C85C-6859-11D6-8342-003065BAAC62@glue.umd.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message: <96D3C85C-6859-11D6-8342-003065BAAC62@glue.umd.edu> James Howard writes: > > I've asked questions about how this has been done before, and > I have successfully created my own tags. > > But now I am trying to do it on Linux, and it doesn't work. Is > this a BSD-specific modification? It is. The modifications that have been made to the CVSROOT/ files of FreeBSD are described in an article at www.FreeBSD.org though. Find it at: http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/cvs-freebsd/ -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 18:18:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from astro.phpwebhosting.com (astro.phpwebhosting.com [66.33.60.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2CA737B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31315 invoked by uid 508); 16 May 2002 01:18:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (208.59.106.215) by astro.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 01:18:03 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:18:04 -0400 Subject: Re: $FreeBSD$ tag in CVS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Giorgos Keramidas From: James Howard In-Reply-To: <20020516005840.GB86249@hades.hell.gr> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 08:58 , Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > In message: <96D3C85C-6859-11D6-8342-003065BAAC62@glue.umd.edu> > James Howard writes: >> >> I've asked questions about how this has been done before, and >> I have successfully created my own tags. >> >> But now I am trying to do it on Linux, and it doesn't work. Is >> this a BSD-specific modification? > > It is. The modifications that have been made to the CVSROOT/ files of > FreeBSD are described in an article at www.FreeBSD.org though. Find > it at: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/cvs-freebsd/ Ahh, a nice website, but I don't think my question was clear. More specifically, is the ability to create a new tag BSD-specific? I cannot make it work under Linux or MacOS X, but had no trouble creating a $jamie$ tag under FreeBSD tonight. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 18:39: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949E337B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 178AE4-0006DD-00 (Debian); Thu, 16 May 2002 02:38:40 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 02:38:40 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: James Howard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: $FreeBSD$ tag in CVS Message-ID: <20020516023840.A21031@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <96D3C85C-6859-11D6-8342-003065BAAC62@glue.umd.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard > > I've asked questions about how this has been done before, and I have > successfully created my own tags. But now I am trying to do it on Linux, > and it doesn't work. Is this a BSD-specific modification? As far as I have seen, the FreeBSD modification is only shared with Debian. NetBSD and OpenBSD have a different patch. (Interestingly, the X Consortium uses a NetBSD-style tag whereas XFree86 uses a FreeBSD-style tag.) Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ SOUTHEAST ICELAND: NORTHEAST 6 TO GALE 8 VEERING EAST 5. RAIN DYING OUT. MODERATE OR GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 18:46:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08BD37B403 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b174.otenet.gr [212.205.244.182]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4G1jsHL022470; Thu, 16 May 2002 04:46:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4G1jm6m087315; Thu, 16 May 2002 04:45:48 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4G1jE3Y086832; Thu, 16 May 2002 04:45:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 04:44:53 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: $FreeBSD$ tag in CVS Message-ID: <20020516014453.GA86792@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020516005840.GB86249@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-15 21:18, James Howard wrote: >On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 08:58 , Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> >> http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/cvs-freebsd/ > > Ahh, a nice website, but I don't think my question was clear. More > specifically, is the ability to create a new tag BSD-specific? I > cannot make it work under Linux or MacOS X, but had no trouble creating > a $jamie$ tag under FreeBSD tonight. Oh, I see. Yes, this is a modification that exists in the FreeBSD version of CVS. Look at revision 1.5 of src/contrib/cvs/src/main.c at the web interface of the CVS repository :-) Point your web-browser at: http://cvsweb.FreeBSD.org/src/contrib/cvs/src/main.c -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 19:58:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CADC37B417 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 19:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.204] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A014911024E; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:57:24 -0500 Message-ID: <03f401c1fc85$7b14dfa0$3dec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020515171405.019e7020@threespace.com> <3CE2DFC8.6888BAF7@centtech.com> Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:57:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, Eric --- Don't feel too bad. I can't find /hand/wallet/etc on my FBSD box, either, and neither can which(1); maybe it's only in -CURRENT..... And I've had plenty of *those* days. The good news: FBSD is still big on uptime.... :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-| |-) :-) :-) :-)| |-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-) :-|___|-) :-) :-) :-)|__ |-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Kevin Kinsey PS...is your signature copyrighted? I love it... From: "Eric Anderson" To: "Chip Morton" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: Re: internal hosts in email > Chip Morton wrote: > > Now Eric, you know good and well that you're supposed to have read every > > shred of written documentation on an available subject before you step into > > the FreeBSD Coliseum asking your pedestrian questions. I think I read that > > in the list charters somewhere. ;-) > > Oh yea, I forgot about that. I was so busy reading the documentation on NFS and > it's issues, I must have lost that bit of info in the grind. :) > > Have you ever been looking so hard for something, then, only to realize, that > there it is, right in your pocket (hand/wallet/etc) the whole time? Yea, that's > how I feel today. > > Eric > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > You have my continuous partial attention > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 20:52:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68C537B406 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 20:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.204] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id ACA0A450126; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:50:56 -0500 Message-ID: <042001c1fc8c$f5922060$3dec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Nils Holland" Cc: References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> Subject: Re: The road ahead? Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:51:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Nils Holland" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:49 PM Subject: The road ahead? > (DANGER: This is long and has not much to do with FreeBSD (that's why I > posted it to -chat). If you're busy, skip this message now. If not, get > yourself a cup of coffee and read on ;-) > 7up will do, I hope. Why assault my body with all that caffeine? > Hi folks, > > it's midnight here in Germany - time for me to try to start another > not-directly-FreeBSD-related, but still not totally inappropriate thread on > this list. What I'm going to talk about below may not be new to you, but I > recently talked about this with quite some people, so I thought I'd bring > it up here. So let's begin: > > If you have been watching the computer industry during the last few years, > you will have noted an interesting event: Beginning in the middle of the > 90's, (computer) technology was seen as *the one great* thing of the > future. The Internet became popular for normal people back then, and what > followed made me want to puke more than once: Everywhere you looked, no > matter if into newspapers, magazines, TV news or whatever, folks were > talking about the Internet - despite the fact that they probably didn't > even really understand what it was. Even more interesting: Everyone seemed > to want to "ride the wave", and many investores piped a whole lot of money > into "e-companies", even if they were built on the most brain-dead business > plan. These were also the days of the "funky words", when an I or E was > appended to normal words in order to make them sound cool, just like > "e-commerce", "e-business", "e-book" and so on. Hell, this made me sick - I > always thought any sane business man would actually have brains - back in > the mid-90s, however, this didn't seem to be the case, as even a product > called "e-shit" would probably have been successful back then. (Note that > nobody would have asked what kind of product that actually is - as look as > it starts with e- it must be good). > Technology is almost always of interest. Mankind is creative, and often lazy at the same time; we seek creative ways to avoid the harsher forms of labor. The ability to use tools is an anthropological phenomenon that will not likely disappear. Now, as you mention so well, *how* it will re-invent itself is something we cannot foresee, not being Omniscient ourselves. > Now, as you will also have noticed, in the years 2000 and 2001 this mood > suddenly started th change. Many dot.com's (another one of these funky > words) turned into dot.bomb's. Finally, intelligence was brought back into > the e-world - seems that people noticed that you can't really turn a word > into money by prepending it with an e-. > > So far about what has happened. The question, however, is what we can learn > from it. Basically, I believe that the computer industry is in serious > danger - Moore's Law seems to be self-destructing. What I mean by this? > Well, seriously, if I go to a computer shop these days, then I will find a > whole lot of hyper-fast machines, but for an ordinary user, these probably > wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone > writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz > one? > Because XP won't boot as quickly on the slower one, that's what they're figuring, I guess..... :-( Not to mention, there are some people who think they've got to have the latest, and the greatest. However, the drive to get an upgrade is not as strong as the drive to have a computer in the first place. "At least we HAVE a machine now, even if it's a P166...." > It seems to me that during the last decades, the industry made constant > progress. Taking into account only the view of the ordinary user and not > the view of the more advanced hacker, much has changed: At first there was > only DOS with its cryptic commands - and since that was "too much" for > normal users, they didn't really like that. Then, suddenly (more or less), > Bill Gates released Windows, and - hell - now every idiot could > point-and-click! Early Windows, up to and including 3.1 was not very nice > (I could also use swear words at this point), so a *new* version of Windows > followed, called Windows 95. Of course, people had to buy this stuff, and > they also had to upgrade their computers or buy new ones every time. > Windows 95 finally brought computing even to the people with the lowest IQ, > but it was not perfect yet: A new version, Windows 98 (judged by the date > of its release, Gates could also have called it "iWindows" or "e-Windows") > was released. Now people could do everything: Surf the web, listen to > music, burn CDs, watch DVDs, etc. > > And suddenly - BANG! Seems that the computer industry has nothing to offer > beyond that. And that's why it's stuck, having financial problems. > I think you are correct in thinking that it has hit something of a wall. M$ probably thinks so, too. People at freebsd-core say "it's not fun anymore." Things change. Whether or not the 'PC' (insert your fave arch acronym here) remains as important as it was in 1997, there will still be new technologies, and they be built upon the foundation of the earlier ones. I think society as a whole hasn't yet caught up with the great expansion you describe. People are still buying their "first" computer. They're still learning that ALL CAPS IS TANTA- MOUNT TO SHOUTING AT SOMEONE, that the Microsoft Windows Registry was not such a good idea from a certain P.O.V., that GUI is not your kid's face after eating peanut butter & jelly. Some of them are learning that there is such a thing as an alternative to Micro$oft. Some are learning FBSD. (BTW, forgive the all-caps....) And, then again, some aren't learning much, which helps me make *my* living. ("Yes, ma'am, *don't* click on those attachments.....") > Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a > faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: > For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning > into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be > invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the > new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people > more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for > ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some > folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big > revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to > say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them > enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. > [ME is an adult male, peppery gray hair, in his late 60s, in the mid United States. FBSD is a server; built with an IntAM BrainPipe (R) 3.66 PetaByte processor, 512 TB MRAM, connected to the neighborhood MegaDAN via it's own OC48 connection leased from SprinTT for $11.95/month. The year is 2035.....] ________________________________________________________ Me: Computer, lights on! FBSD: Which lights? Me: In the foyer! FBSD: Fluorescent area lights, pinspots, or design lasers? Me: Fluorescents, @#$@ it! I dropped my contact lens! FBSD: I keep telling you to have that surgery.... Me: Yeah, Yeah, I know....would you please just turn on the FLUORESCENT lights? FBSD: Sure, how bright? Me: Bright!! FBSD: You forget; you requested that we use a sliding scale numeric reference for brightness on all lights in the domestic domain.... Me: OK, OK! ---8.975, please....now!!! FBSD: What's the password? Me [thinking] @#$#, it was so much quicker with a mouse and a GUI!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >So, another toy, but nothing new! The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. [Ecclesiastes I:ix-x] > While the performance of silicon technology may be increasing by whatever > insane factor every year, I don't see too many occasions where such > performance is actually needed - at least not enough occassions in order to > enable computer companies to earn as much money as they did in the past. > The need was largely created in the minds of the (l)users by the marketing departments of the software and hardware manufacturers, and by the general sense of excitement in the populi that came from the realization that here was, at the time, 'something new!' No surprise the excitement has worn off. The most interesting thing is how long it took to do so.... > To come back to the point of most new inventations being "toys", let me > give you another example: There are currently (at least) two companies out > there working on "electronic paper". One of them is E-Ink, and the other > one is something that has recently been spun off from XEROX (I don't > remember the company's new name, so I'll just call it XEROX). A few years > ago, these companies wanted to make us believe that in the future all > newspapers, magazines and books would use their electronic paper - which > must be imagines in a way that you probably have one single "sheet" of that > stuff, and you don't turn the page, but hit some button or so, and the next > page will then be "painted" onto this electronic stuff automatically (or > something like that). Interestingly, it seems to me that E-Ink has now > stopped working on this stuff, using their discoveries more or less for > normal, especially flat and energy-saving displays on mobile devices. > XEROX, instead of revolutionizing our newspapers, as they initially > claimed, seem to sell "signs" to retailers to put in shops (or wherever). > These sings then "update themselves automatically" and always display the > latest information / prices / etc. > > Personally, when I first heard about the stuff E-Ink and XEROX were working > on, I already predicted that they would have no success - at least not as > far-reaching as their marketting insanity said. The reason for this is > simple: I don't see a need for electronic, re-writable paper. After all, we > have real paper, which is inexpensive, "easy to use" and convenient to use > for somewhat static information. On the other hand, we have well-known > computer display technology for "dynamic" information, like web sites. As > such, I didn't (and still don't) see a board market for this e-paper toy stuff. > It somehow reminds me of the prediction made in the 70's, which basically > said that before the next century, offices would work without any paper. > Obviously, this didn't happen. Most predictions like this don't happen, and > if they do, then mostly a whole lot different that originally imagined. > > Bottom line (and at this point I really want to stop wasting your bandwidth > and precious time): I guess that looking at the computer and electronics > company, "all the good ones are taken" or "everything that can (sanely) be > done has been done". Of course, the future may bring the one or the other > new interesting development, but I don't see many real revolutions anymore, > as we seem to have reached a point where going any further does no longer > provide any increased benefit. > A new viewpoint, and a cultural revolution, doesn't seem to come around as fast or as often as some would have us to believe. Micro$soft (*why* do I keep talking about *them*?) is betting on .NET; others are betting on the courts; at MIT, they're betting on molecular processors. Frankly, something the size of my cellphone with the communications and creative impact (publishing, multimedia, etc.) [and processing power] that a present day PC has (think projector onboard here) would be something worth looking into, IMHO, but that day is not here yet. And, no one is asking me to help bring it about. Someone else thinks something else would be better. The innovators are not the profiteers. The guy (gal?) who brings about the next revolution will be an unknown, sweating away feverishly on some post- doctoral work or some development.... Who was Ray Tomlinson prior to 1971? And, how many of us know about him now? Live, learn; adapt, use; discover God and your fellow man (maybe he's the next innovator and he'll hire you as Ops Director....) > Comments to this - well - rather free-style "essay" are welcome ;-) > I doubt you could call this a comment. Ravings of a lunatic, perhaps. Thanks for the 7up.... > Greetings > Nils Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. > -- > Nils Holland > Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org > Addicted to computing since 1987 > High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 21: 8:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23E637B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net ([4.34.145.186]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020516040810.NOVE1690.out001.verizon.net@gte.net>; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:08:10 -0500 Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA03764; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:08:34 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020515210834.I1282@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org>; from nils@daemon.tisys.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:49:09AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:49:09AM +0200, Nils Holland wrote: > (DANGER: This is long and has not much to do with FreeBSD (that's why I > posted it to -chat). If you're busy, skip this message now. If not, get > yourself a cup of coffee and read on ;-) > > Hi folks, > > it's midnight here in Germany - time for me to try to start another > not-directly-FreeBSD-related, but still not totally inappropriate thread on > this list. What I'm going to talk about below may not be new to you, but I > recently talked about this with quite some people, so I thought I'd bring > it up here. So let's begin: > > If you have been watching the computer industry during the last few years, > you will have noted an interesting event: Beginning in the middle of the > 90's, (computer) technology was seen as *the one great* thing of the > future. The Internet became popular for normal people back then, and what > followed made me want to puke more than once: Everywhere you looked, no > matter if into newspapers, magazines, TV news or whatever, folks were > talking about the Internet - despite the fact that they probably didn't > even really understand what it was. Even more interesting: Everyone seemed > to want to "ride the wave", and many investores piped a whole lot of money > into "e-companies", even if they were built on the most brain-dead business > plan. These were also the days of the "funky words", when an I or E was > appended to normal words in order to make them sound cool, just like > "e-commerce", "e-business", "e-book" and so on. Hell, this made me sick - I > always thought any sane business man would actually have brains - back in > the mid-90s, however, this didn't seem to be the case, as even a product > called "e-shit" would probably have been successful back then. (Note that > nobody would have asked what kind of product that actually is - as look as > it starts with e- it must be good). > > Now, as you will also have noticed, in the years 2000 and 2001 this mood > suddenly started th change. Many dot.com's (another one of these funky > words) turned into dot.bomb's. Finally, intelligence was brought back into > the e-world - seems that people noticed that you can't really turn a word > into money by prepending it with an e-. > No, people are as stupid as they ever were, they just have less money to throw around. > So far about what has happened. The question, however, is what we can learn > from it. Basically, I believe that the computer industry is in serious > danger - Moore's Law seems to be self-destructing. What I mean by this? > Well, seriously, if I go to a computer shop these days, then I will find a > whole lot of hyper-fast machines, but for an ordinary user, these probably > wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone > writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz > one? > I've seen hundreds of systems replaced at the office, just because they are no longer fast enough. As software gets bigger and slower, the systems need to be faster. Even FreeBSD, as efficient as it is, likes the faster hardware. > It seems to me that during the last decades, the industry made constant > progress. Taking into account only the view of the ordinary user and not > the view of the more advanced hacker, much has changed: At first there was > only DOS with its cryptic commands - and since that was "too much" for > normal users, they didn't really like that. Then, suddenly (more or less), > Bill Gates released Windows, and - hell - now every idiot could > point-and-click! Early Windows, up to and including 3.1 was not very nice > (I could also use swear words at this point), so a *new* version of Windows > followed, called Windows 95. Of course, people had to buy this stuff, and > they also had to upgrade their computers or buy new ones every time. > Windows 95 finally brought computing even to the people with the lowest IQ, > but it was not perfect yet: A new version, Windows 98 (judged by the date > of its release, Gates could also have called it "iWindows" or "e-Windows") > was released. Now people could do everything: Surf the web, listen to > music, burn CDs, watch DVDs, etc. > Only elitists should have computers? > And suddenly - BANG! Seems that the computer industry has nothing to offer > beyond that. And that's why it's stuck, having financial problems. > > Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a > faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: > For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning > into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be > invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the > new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people > more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for > ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some > folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big > revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to > say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them > enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing > new! > People have a hard time making sense when talking to each other. To expect a computer to undestand blather is asking a bit much? > While the performance of silicon technology may be increasing by whatever > insane factor every year, I don't see too many occasions where such > performance is actually needed - at least not enough occassions in order to > enable computer companies to earn as much money as they did in the past. > If perfomance increases didn't keep the waterfall of lowering prices going, what would we end up with? > > Personally, when I first heard about the stuff E-Ink and XEROX were working > on, I already predicted that they would have no success - at least not as > far-reaching as their marketting insanity said. The reason for this is > simple: I don't see a need for electronic, re-writable paper. After all, we > have real paper, which is inexpensive, "easy to use" and convenient to use > for somewhat static information. On the other hand, we have well-known > computer display technology for "dynamic" information, like web sites. As > such, I didn't (and still don't) see a board market for this e-paper toy stuff. > It somehow reminds me of the prediction made in the 70's, which basically > said that before the next century, offices would work without any paper. > Obviously, this didn't happen. Most predictions like this don't happen, and > if they do, then mostly a whole lot different that originally imagined. > If I recycled the unncessary paper in my office, it would be almost paperless. When you get paid to push buttons, paper is a waste of time. > Bottom line (and at this point I really want to stop wasting your bandwidth > and precious time): I guess that looking at the computer and electronics > company, "all the good ones are taken" or "everything that can (sanely) be > done has been done". Of course, the future may bring the one or the other > new interesting development, but I don't see many real revolutions anymore, > as we seem to have reached a point where going any further does no longer > provide any increased benefit. > Time for some deconstruction? Time for the fat to be cut away from hardware designs? Will computers become so common that only the lower classes have anything to do with them? Will the offshore coding hordes tire of piecemeal work and turn their sights on knocking humpty off the wall? > Comments to this - well - rather free-style "essay" are welcome ;-) > > Greetings > Nils > > -- > > Nils Holland > Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org > Addicted to computing since 1987 > High on FreeBSD since 1996 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 21:12:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C8D37B407 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Ccb-0003jS-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:12:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3317A.69E61C1B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:11:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chad David Cc: anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <3CE2B942.6C8EDC53@mindspring.com> <20020515141658.A4996@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chad David wrote: > > Or in a pinch, he could use FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'), and > > if things were really dire, FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope')... > > I didn't see that in your original email. Do we fight now?. I realize > with all of the mentoring I've received from the lists I should know when > and when not to engage in a flame war, but I'm a slow learner. :-). > > > 8-) 8-) 8-). > > > > -- Terry Just humor... ar ar. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 21:16:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5655E37B407 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Cgb-0000C1-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:16:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE33272.5C4309B1@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:15:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chad David , anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:56 PM -0600 2002/05/15, Chad David wrote: > > Actually, he is probably concerned about the envelope, and may want to > > try FEATURE(`masquerade_envelope'). I don't remember for sure, but I > > do not think allmasquerade implies the envelope. > > None of the masquerading features will do things like removing > all the "Received:" headers. It might be valid to assume that that's what he was talking about. I assumed differently, based on his email headers, that what he was trying to do was to not externalize things that would fail SPAM checks, which were actually a result of his internal net topology. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 21:19:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB5437B409 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net ([4.34.145.186]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020516041908.MXWE12777.out007.verizon.net@gte.net>; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:19:08 -0500 Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA03777; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:19:22 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1021937567.3082d8@mired.org on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:32:47PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:32:47PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > In <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org>, Nils Holland typed: > > Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a > > faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: > > For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning > > into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be > > invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the > > new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people > > more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for > > ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some > > folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big > > revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to > > say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them > > enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing > > new! > > You just committed a logical fallacy. You correctly point out that > GUIs made computers easier to use or people more productive, then dis > talking to the computer because it's *slower* than a GUI. Speed isn't > everything, and I'll argue tha GUIs make people *slower*, at least at > some tasks. See http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/windowing.html > for a comparison > of a typical GUI window manager with a keyboard-driven one. GUIs > provide other advantages such that most people aren't willing to drop > them in favor of something faster. > Different tools for different jobs. You can pound nails with a pipe wrench, but it isn't elegant. > The real question about an AUI(tm) - Audio User Interface, pronounced > owi - is whether or not it will make people more productive or > computers easier to use, and do so to an extent that it being slower > is irrelevant. > (IMO) Pen based PDAs are just so much crap. If people will throw all that money at such inelegant crap, there has to be a market for a well thought out speech based device. If for no other reason than it would sell well with the illiterate. Everything about audio is cheap. Crank out a copy of Palm, and call it Speak, and the market is wide open. > > Bottom line (and at this point I really want to stop wasting your bandwidth > > and precious time): I guess that looking at the computer and electronics > > company, "all the good ones are taken" or "everything that can (sanely) be > > done has been done". Of course, the future may bring the one or the other > > new interesting development, but I don't see many real revolutions anymore, > > as we seem to have reached a point where going any further does no longer > > provide any increased benefit. > > If I knew what the next great computer revolution was going to be, I'd > be looking for investors, not reading freebsd-chat. I suspect the same > is true for most everyone here. I will say that it probably already > exists. The internet existed in the mid 70s, but didn't hit the > popular conscious until the mid 90s. Identifying it, that's the hard > part. We geeks aren't likely to do so, because we have such poor > perception of what jane sixpack really wants. > When I'm in a meeting, and my cellphone rings, why doesn't a voice answer the call and say, "Mr Clark is in a meeting, but he is will take your call in a few seconds.", as I'm leaving to take the call in the hallway where my voice won't disturb people? In a market where everyone is falling over each other to bring out WAP, why don't good features ever show up? > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/consulting.html > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 21:35:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E63437B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178CzK-0000xA-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:35:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE336FC.EDF41C0F@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:35:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: internal hosts in email References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020515171405.019e7020@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > At 02:18 PM 5/15/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > >See, this is why I love the freebsd community. Brutal honesty, yet helpful at > >the same time. The problem with documentation, is that it sucks ass. If you > >know what you are looking for, it's easy as pie to find what you need, but > >then, > >if you know what you are looking for, then hell, who needs the docs.... > > Now Eric, you know good and well that you're supposed to have read every > shred of written documentation on an available subject before you step into > the FreeBSD Coliseum asking your pedestrian questions. I think I read that > in the list charters somewhere. ;-) Generally speaking, there's only one shred for sendmail, and that's the README files in the sources. Everyone always ignores the IGNOREME^WREADME files for Sendmail, even though they know the book is seriously out of date, and has been for over two years now (but the book does discuss the subject). My answer was phrased the way it was because of the tendency to go fishing for easy answers before going and looking where you would be expected to have looked first. 8-). Plus, as this is -chat, I'd be well within the bounds of reason to list available shoe sizes from Nike.com as my response. 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 21:48:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA3637B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 21:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5307 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 04:48:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15587.14873.431323.125122@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:48:25 -0500 To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net>, Robert Clark typed: > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:32:47PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > In <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org>, Nils Holland typed: > > > Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a > > > faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: > > > For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning > > > into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be > > > invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the > > > new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people > > > more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for > > > ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some > > > folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big > > > revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to > > > say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them > > > enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing > > > new! > > You just committed a logical fallacy. You correctly point out that > > GUIs made computers easier to use or people more productive, then dis > > talking to the computer because it's *slower* than a GUI. Speed isn't > > everything, and I'll argue tha GUIs make people *slower*, at least at > > some tasks. See > http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/windowing.html > for a comparison > > of a typical GUI window manager with a keyboard-driven one. GUIs > > provide other advantages such that most people aren't willing to drop > > them in favor of something faster. > Different tools for different jobs. You can pound nails with a pipe wrench, > but it isn't elegant. Yes, but tea in china is cheap. > > The real question about an AUI(tm) - Audio User Interface, pronounced > > owi - is whether or not it will make people more productive or > > computers easier to use, and do so to an extent that it being slower > > is irrelevant. > (IMO) Pen based PDAs are just so much crap. If people will throw all > that money at such inelegant crap, there has to be a market for a well > thought out speech based device. If for no other reason than it would > sell well with the illiterate. All computers are crap. Pen-based is no worse than trying to type on a keyboard that will fit in a shirt pocket. Getting a computer in your pocket is almost as useful than having one on your desk. Compared to the cost of desktop machines, PDAs are an excellent value for the dollar. > Everything about audio is cheap. > Crank out a copy of Palm, and call it Speak, and the market is wide open. Can you convince an investor of that? I'm not interested, because I'm not convinced that voice will either be easier to use or make people more productve. > When I'm in a meeting, and my cellphone rings, why doesn't a voice answer > the call and say, "Mr Clark is in a meeting, but he is will take your > call in a few seconds.", as I'm leaving to take the call in the hallway > where my voice won't disturb people? Why can't I buy an answering machine with caller-id that will route calls without an ID to answering machine without bothering to ring the phone? > In a market where everyone is falling over each other to bring out WAP, > why don't good features ever show up? Because the populace at large will settle for Honda's and Windows. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 22:12:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B54B37B407 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4G5BdBh049857; Thu, 16 May 2002 14:41:45 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: national security backdoor in FreeBSD. From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Matthew Emmerton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CE33C1F.A547AE4D@mindspring.com> References: <3CE295EC.6030603@cogeco.ca> <009c01c1fc95$74fd0470$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3CE33C1F.A547AE4D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 16 May 2002 14:41:39 +0930 Message-Id: <1021525918.3132.0.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2002-05-16 at 14:27, Terry Lambert wrote: > > source. So where do these binaries-with-no-source come from? Oh, I know! > > Carnivore detects FreeBSD ISO downloads, and tells the Magic Lantern > > software on my ISP's servers to change the binaries inside the ISO images > > that I FTP. Makes perfect sense! > > Bell Systems Technical Journal, July-August 1978, "On the Security > of UNIX.", D. M. Ritchie. > > They hacked the compiler to hack the passwd program when it was > being compiled, and also to hack the compiler to include hacks > to the compiler and the passwd program when the compiler itself > was being compiled. Chicken and egg. If that was done then compiled code would have the same hole. This is -chat material and thusly I have redirected it :) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 22:19: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trot.galis.org (ool-43530772.dyn.optonline.net [67.83.7.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F79737B409 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gx@localhost) by trot.galis.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4G5K5d03804; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:20:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 01:20:05 -0400 From: George Georgalis To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Message-ID: <20020516012005.D2690@trot.haven.dom> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:26:50AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:26:50AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: >Just curious if anyone else has a solution for this: > >I have an internal mail server, which is the SMTP server for our internal hosts, >and then a "firewall" mail server (or however you want to call it), that is the >SMARTHOST that the internal mail server dumps its mail to when it is bound for >non-internal email addresses. > >The problem is, the mail headers show all the internal hosts that the mail >passed (via the Received: lines), and I think that is a security risk. Does >anyone have a trick to remove those using the .mc files? This is one of those >pseudo security/chat/questions/sendmail things, so it's an informal chat-like >discussion topic I guess. :) > >Eric pipe the message with procmail to formail when you are ready to expunge the headers I think formail can do that, or maybe sed... // George -- GEORGE GEORGALIS, System Admin/Architect cell: 347-451-8229 Security Services, Web, Mail, mailto:george@galis.org File, Print, DB and DNS Servers. http://www.galis.org/george To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 22:38:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151BC37B401 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178DxD-0001c0-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:37:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3457D.3EC8885B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:37:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > (DANGER: This is long and has not much to do with FreeBSD (that's why I > posted it to -chat). If you're busy, skip this message now. If not, get > yourself a cup of coffee and read on ;-) [ ... ] The "dot com" bubble was a new industry buble, which floated based on the promise of new revenue models which petered out. I don't think that it's really fair to blame this on infatuation with the Internet, per se; a lot of capital ended up going to a lot of places that petered out. You have to blame a lot of ot on the day traders, and computer driven buying/selling. Looking at themarket today, you see the effects of the day traders getting out for the weekend, and getting back in on Monday. If anything, the IPO valuations were responsible for a lot of the "feeding frenzy"... and this is the fault of stock market players -- ordinary people -- and not really about the companies at all. It started failing in March of 1999, when the Federal Reserve raised the prime interest rate, and money became more expensive; recently, the price of money has been going down, and we are once again seeing investments in new venture creation going up. > So far about what has happened. The question, however, is what we can learn > from it. Basically, I believe that the computer industry is in serious > danger - Moore's Law seems to be self-destructing. What I mean by this? > Well, seriously, if I go to a computer shop these days, then I will find a > whole lot of hyper-fast machines, but for an ordinary user, these probably > wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone > writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz > one? The answer to this is "task based computing". Kirk McKusick likes to say "the number of MIPS delivered to the keyboard has remained constant since 1978". This is both true and false. One of the most obvious places CPU cycles have been soaked up is into human factors developement, and the most blatant example of that is that it's no longer necessary to explicitly request that a spreadsheet be recalculated, as it was "in the old days", where spreadsheets were relatively much more expensive in terms of time to recalculate. A lot of it has also gone to programmers who, frankly, don't know how to code in a resource constrained environment, and, as a result, code things in such a way as to soak up resources that would otherwise be free for other tasks. Couple this with buying the engineers the newest toys that you expect the target market to have on hand, so they can "take advantage of every ounce", and you have a viscious cycle. [ ... DOS -> Windows -> present day ... ] > And suddenly - BANG! Seems that the computer industry has nothing to offer > beyond that. And that's why it's stuck, having financial problems. Incorrect. The financial problems are larely the result of the U.S. government's fiscal policies. Mostly, the rest of the world has very little to offer, since they do not have the strong intellectual property policies of the U.S. to encourage the idea that one can make a return on investment. The ROI factor means that commercially unexpolitable Open Source Sofware is actually a danger to the financial engiones paying for innovation. A lot of people who got into the technology because that's where they thought the money was are hurting: they aren't as good at it as the people who live and breathe it for love, and so they were the first ones "up against the wall" when the industry hit upon hard times. Hopefully, the current troubles have lasted long enough for them to come to the conclusion that the money is in other fields, so they can go provide incompetent service there, instead. > What seems to be > invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the > new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people > more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for > ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some > folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big > revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to > say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them > enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing > new! You need to read "The Innovator's Dilemma". The point I would have you take away from the book is that, if you are not yourself a visionary, then you will only see the greatness of innovations in hindsight. > While the performance of silicon technology may be increasing by whatever > insane factor every year, I don't see too many occasions where such > performance is actually needed - at least not enough occassions in order to > enable computer companies to earn as much money as they did in the past. Then the problems you are trying to apply the computational power to are the same old problems, and not new problems. The applications you are choosing are apparently not important to the future. BTW, "Moore's law" is about transistor density doubling every 18 months; he actually said "every 12 months" and then later revised it to "every 24 months", and we tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, now that we have perfect hindsight, and attribute the average to him. > To come back to the point of most new inventations being "toys", let me > give you another example: There are currently (at least) two companies out > there working on "electronic paper". One of them is E-Ink, and the other > one is something that has recently been spun off from XEROX (I don't > remember the company's new name, so I'll just call it XEROX). A few years > ago, these companies wanted to make us believe that in the future all > newspapers, magazines and books would use their electronic paper - which > must be imagines in a way that you probably have one single "sheet" of that > stuff, and you don't turn the page, but hit some button or so, and the next > page will then be "painted" onto this electronic stuff automatically (or > something like that). Interestingly, it seems to me that E-Ink has now > stopped working on this stuff, using their discoveries more or less for > normal, especially flat and energy-saving displays on mobile devices. > XEROX, instead of revolutionizing our newspapers, as they initially > claimed, seem to sell "signs" to retailers to put in shops (or wherever). > These sings then "update themselves automatically" and always display the > latest information / prices / etc. All significant innovations face an adoption curve. They also are not necessarily able to capture the market they sought to capture, and end up being used for things their inventors did not strictly forsee. In fact, every single significant advance in disk storage technology started out without a market, and ended up finding its niche elsewhere. You should also read Geoffrey Moore's "Crossing the Chasm". > Personally, when I first heard about the stuff E-Ink and XEROX were working > on, I already predicted that they would have no success - at least not as > far-reaching as their marketting insanity said. The reason for this is > simple: I don't see a need for electronic, re-writable paper. After all, we > have real paper, which is inexpensive, "easy to use" and convenient to use > for somewhat static information. On the other hand, we have well-known > computer display technology for "dynamic" information, like web sites. As > such, I didn't (and still don't) see a board market for this e-paper toy stuff. I think you are seriously wrong about this. The "greening" of America has pushed a lot of otherwise not very useful technologies to fruition. Look at "Energy Star Ally" computer equipment, and look at the studies on total lifecycle energy costs. If you are willing to dig for it, look for the University of Colorado, Boulder's report on pollution per mile for oxygenated fuels in vehicles with Oxygen sensors (i.e. vehicles manufactured from 1981 onward), or other similar studies by other researchers. If you aren't willing to accept "green" reasons for such paper, then accept the "Enron" reasoning that it's a lot easier to "shred" documents by refusing to display them. Personally, I can think of a huge number of reasons to have "smart paper". > It somehow reminds me of the prediction made in the 70's, which basically > said that before the next century, offices would work without any paper. > Obviously, this didn't happen. Most predictions like this don't happen, and > if they do, then mostly a whole lot different that originally imagined. We were also supposed to have flying cars. Just because one prediction fails doesn't mean that they all will. The "paperless office" was a seriously idiotic idea; we never had the tools, until the last year Clinton was in office, to treat electronic signatures as real signatures, making electronic documents into legal documents. The main reason for paper trails is legal. I think that it *is* happening, actually. Try to get a printed copy of a software manual from most software vendors, these days; or have H&R Block do your taxes, and then tell them that you don't want to pay your tax bill (or receive your refund) through direct payment/deposit, electronically, and have them look at you funny for wanting to send (or be sent) a check. > Bottom line (and at this point I really want to stop wasting your bandwidth > and precious time): I guess that looking at the computer and electronics > company, "all the good ones are taken" or "everything that can (sanely) be > done has been done". Of course, the future may bring the one or the other > new interesting development, but I don't see many real revolutions anymore, > as we seem to have reached a point where going any further does no longer > provide any increased benefit. > > Comments to this - well - rather free-style "essay" are welcome ;-) You're seriously wrong. So seriously wrong that RIAA and MPAA are paying off congress-critters left and write to jam through legislation to prevent the possibilities they see, with their limited vision, from happening. I'll leave it at that. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 22:41:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA0937B404 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178E01-0003aH-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:40:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3462B.22C9724A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:39:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > If I knew what the next great computer revolution was going to be, I'd > be looking for investors, not reading freebsd-chat. I suspect the same > is true for most everyone here. I will say that it probably already > exists. The internet existed in the mid 70s, but didn't hit the > popular conscious until the mid 90s. Identifying it, that's the hard > part. We geeks aren't likely to do so, because we have such poor > perception of what jane sixpack really wants. Steve Jobs has a good track record of seeing 5 or 6 years into the future. Too bad the public won't tolerate more than 2 years, tops. Anything with a horizon over 2 years is really unlikely to be funded. Listen to the archived BASES lectures (Stanford V.C. lectures) for confirmation on this point. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 22:48:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D27537B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178E7o-0001Cj-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:48:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3480E.F0997173@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:47:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Clark Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020515210834.I1282@darkstar.gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark wrote: [ ... the "myth" of the "paperless" office ... ] > If I recycled the unncessary paper in my office, it would be almost paperless. > When you get paid to push buttons, paper is a waste of time. An anecdote, FWIW... After almost 22 years since someone first paid me to bang on a computer keyboard, I have bought my first printer. I use it to print driving directions, and to create things like non-disclosure agreements, invoices, and purchase orders. Mostly, it's for driving directions. > Will computers become so common that only the lower classes have anything > to do with them? > > Will the offshore coding hordes tire of piecemeal work and turn their > sights on knocking humpty off the wall? Only if they become much, much better at coding, and establish strong intellectual property laws... English speakers also seem to have the edge when it comes to the science of C.S.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 22:59:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF0A37B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178EI6-0000Ps-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 22:59:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:58:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Clark Cc: Mike Meyer , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark wrote: > (IMO) Pen based PDAs are just so much crap. If people will throw all > that money at such inelegant crap, there has to be a market for a well > thought out speech based device. If for no other reason than it would > sell well with the illiterate. Illiterate people tend to have small disposable incomes. They are not our target market. > When I'm in a meeting, and my cellphone rings, why doesn't a voice answer > the call and say, "Mr Clark is in a meeting, but he is will take your > call in a few seconds.", as I'm leaving to take the call in the hallway > where my voice won't disturb people? 1) Because Qualcomm reserves the right to reprogram and change the features on your phone at will, and without notice, so you can't trust a feture that's there Tuesday to still be there Friday? 2) Because you forget to press the button to put it into "meeting mode" (today, that means "vibrate"), and there's no button labelled "Just a second..."? 3) Because people aren't permitted to hack their own features into their phones, like they can with computer programs, because phones actually have to be reliable in emergencies? 8-). > In a market where everyone is falling over each other to bring out WAP, > why don't good features ever show up? Ah, an easy one! Because the idiots behind WAP look at it as a means of pushing content at you, the same way they look at the Internet as a means of pushing content at you, rather than as a person-to-person communications medium. Drink from the firehose! Pay for the right to have the business end of the firehose jammed in your face! Pay monthly for thousands of gallons of water, when what you wanted as a 7oz paper cup of water! Pay for message units, when we know that you want to pay flat rate! ...Mostly, it probably because they don't realize that last year, people spent more money on personal phone calls than the U.S.'s total defense budget (~1.24 trillion dollars). Good article on "First Monday" on this: http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue6_2/odlyzko/ -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 23: 1: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3299437B405 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178EJq-0001Zl-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:00:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE34AF8.83113BB6@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:00:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <15587.14873.431323.125122@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > Why can't I buy an answering machine with caller-id that will route > calls without an ID to answering machine without bothering to ring the > phone? Because the people who sell phones to you are the same people who sell phones to telemarketers, and they don't want to cannibalize their market? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 23:10:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8750D37B41B for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0568.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.58] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178EQz-0006TL-00; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:08:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE34CB3.66591E35@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:07:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Clark , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020515210834.I1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE3480E.F0997173@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Will the offshore coding hordes tire of piecemeal work and turn their > > sights on knocking humpty off the wall? > > Only if they become much, much better at coding, and establish > strong intellectual property laws... English speakers also seem > to have the edge when it comes to the science of C.S.. Actually, I'm not sure if good coding is an artifact of English structure, or because most programming languages originated with English speakers... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 23:24:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1A237B406 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4G6NeY04114; Thu, 16 May 2002 08:23:44 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE33272.5C4309B1@mindspring.com> References: <3CE2702A.A67642FE@centtech.com> <20020515164724.S82994@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE27739.E009411E@centtech.com> <3CE2A8F1.B5DD6BB4@mindspring.com> <20020515125624.A4806@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <3CE33272.5C4309B1@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 08:20:12 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: internal hosts in email Cc: Chad David , anderson@centtech.com, Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:15 PM -0700 2002/05/15, Terry Lambert wrote: > I assumed differently, based on his email headers, that what he > was trying to do was to not externalize things that would fail > SPAM checks, which were actually a result of his internal net > topology. Fair enough, but none of the masquerading features will go in and change all of the "Received:" headers in any event. Sure, you can masquerade the envelope sender, the header sender, etc... but all those old "Received:" headers are still going to be there and unmodified, thus exposing all of his internal information. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 23:30:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF38637B408 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4G6UDY11926; Thu, 16 May 2002 08:30:13 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE34AF8.83113BB6@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <15587.14873.431323.125122@guru.mired.org> <3CE34AF8.83113BB6@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 08:29:30 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:00 PM -0700 2002/05/15, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Why can't I buy an answering machine with caller-id that will route >> calls without an ID to answering machine without bothering to ring the >> phone? > > Because the people who sell phones to you are the same people who sell > phones to telemarketers, and they don't want to cannibalize their market? Actually, you can get these things. I've seen them advertised in a variety of catalogs, including things like _Sharper Image_. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 15 23:30:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from go4.ext.ti.com (dlezb.ext.ti.com [192.91.75.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446A437B400 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 23:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com ([157.170.134.88]) by go4.ext.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4G6UYq12842 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:30:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23343 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:30:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23327 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:30:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gautham ([192.168.185.126]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14291 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:00:30 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <019b01c1fca3$4d554ff0$1901a8c0@ti.com> Reply-To: "Gautham Ganapathy" From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD.org - Chat" Subject: Re: The road ahead? Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:38:41 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Robert Clark" To: "Nils Holland" > > > So far about what has happened. The question, however, is what we can learn > > from it. Basically, I believe that the computer industry is in serious > > danger - Moore's Law seems to be self-destructing. What I mean by this? > > Well, seriously, if I go to a computer shop these days, then I will find a > > whole lot of hyper-fast machines, but for an ordinary user, these probably > > wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone > > writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz > > one? > > > > I've seen hundreds of systems replaced at the office, just because they > are no longer fast enough. As software gets bigger and slower, the systems > need to be faster. > Also helps a lot when playing Unreal and Quake > > Will the offshore coding hordes tire of piecemeal work and turn their > sights on knocking humpty off the wall? > The offshore coding hordes are already tired of piecemeal work! he only reason we are still doing it is because we don't know how to do anything else and noone else is giving us a job ! Gautham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 0: 5:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5866137B406 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 00:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com ([157.170.134.88]) by jester.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4G75Ub27432; Thu, 16 May 2002 02:05:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20555; Thu, 16 May 2002 02:05:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20529; Thu, 16 May 2002 02:05:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gautham ([192.168.185.126]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22523; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:35:24 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <027d01c1fca8$2ef0e8d0$1901a8c0@ti.com> Reply-To: "Gautham Ganapathy" From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "Jens Rehsack" Cc: "FreeBSD.org - Chat" References: <019a01c1fca3$4d22ce40$1901a8c0@ti.com> <3CE35166.DF8415D4@liwing.de> Subject: Re: 4.5-RELEASE generic kernel crashing on sysctl -a Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:35:49 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jens Rehsack wrote: > Gautham Ganapathy wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I had posted this sometime back, but didn't receive much feedback > > > > After installing 4.5-RELEASE, (BSD Mall Feb 2002 CD), when I ran > > 'sysctl -a', the kernel crashed with the foll message. > > > > Fault trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > > fault virtual address = 0x6351ec0c > > fault code = supervisor read, page not present > > instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc02207c > > stack pointer = 0x10:0xede0ebf8 > > frame pointer = 0x10:0xcde0ee20 > > code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xffffff, type 0x1b > > = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 > > processor eflags = interrupts enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 > > current process = 228 (sysctl) > > interrupt mask = > > trap number = 12 > > panic : page fault > > > > Is this hardware related ? After I recompiled the kernel, everything > I do not know much 'bout FBSD kernel, but AFAIK page fault trap is generated, > if the opreating system could not swap in a page which is required > by the processor. > > If you say, after a recompile of the kernel all went ok, it could be > much helpful to the developers, if you resent this question plus > an output of the original and new dmesg-output (if different) to > mailto:stable@freebsd.org > > Jens > Ok. Hope I haven't deleted the old one. Is it the same as the one in the second CD (live filesystem) ? Gautham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 0:12: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C87F37B40F for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 00:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-223.wobline.de [212.68.69.234]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4G7A1514619; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:10:01 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4G79uo2034352; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:09:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4G7AWnu002331; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:10:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 09:10:31 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:58:35PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 8:50AM up 7 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.03, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:58:35PM -0700, Terry Lambert stood up and spoke: > > In a market where everyone is falling over each other to bring out WAP, > > why don't good features ever show up? > > Ah, an easy one! > > Because the idiots behind WAP look at it as a means of pushing > content at you, the same way they look at the Internet as a > means of pushing content at you, rather than as a person-to-person > communications medium. We have another two things that should be mentioned here: 1) The fact that computers these days are sold today mor or less like normal appliances doesn't make things much better. Today, these doesn't seem to be much of a difference between a computer and a TV set. Serious companies (Microsoft, for example) seem to think that they have to produce something that you turn on and then information comes out of it. This brings us to the second thing: 2) The Internet in fact was very much different from television when initially invented: It allowed people to communicate with one another. It allowed people (and companies) to put up places of information (=web sites), which were always meant to be an interactive experience. As time goes by, however, the Internet seems to be mutating into "another TV": It's being commercialized and (from the content point of view) ruled by a bunch of big companies, just as is true for TV. The fact that initially made the 'net interesting, i.e. allowing people from all over the world to communicate, and allowing everyone to become a "publisher", no longer seems to interest anyone. I guess by now the Internet is like TV with a whole lot of home-shopping stations ;-) Another thing I'd like to mention is that I guess the Internet is successful because it's free. As such, I remember that a while ago all the world seemed to swap music via Napster. Then Napster was closed down, and started to come back, using the Internet to seel online music for money. I find this idea a little strange, as I don't think Napster was successfull because it made music available via the Internet, but because this music was *free*. On the other hand, if people now had to pay in order to download music from the 'Net, they might as well buy the CD. In addition, if we'd turn the concept around, i.e. selling Napster music for mony and making CDs available for free, everything would be reversed, so that everyone would get the CDs. This seems to prove that the popular thing about Napster was *not* that it "worked over the Internet", but that the music it provides was free. As such, I don't think business plans that want to make money from the Internet could be very successful. Only imagine if you'd have to pay a monthly fee for every (commercial site) you visit, or for every document you download at such a site. I guess that would highly decrease the popularity of the web, yet I guess there are at least some commercial content providers that would like to charge you money for accessing their stuff... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 0:47:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9AC37B405 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.226.58] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A3A5DE50260; Thu, 16 May 2002 02:45:41 -0500 Message-ID: <047a01c1fcad$c049fa60$3dec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Nils Holland" Cc: References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> Subject: Re: The road ahead? Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 02:46:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Nils Holland" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 2:10 AM Subject: Re: The road ahead? > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:58:35PM -0700, Terry Lambert stood up and spoke: > > > In a market where everyone is falling over each other to bring out WAP, > > > why don't good features ever show up? > > > > Ah, an easy one! > > > > Because the idiots behind WAP look at it as a means of pushing > > content at you, the same way they look at the Internet as a > > means of pushing content at you, rather than as a person-to-person > > communications medium. > > We have another two things that should be mentioned here: > Another thing I'd like to mention is that I guess the Internet is > successful because it's free. As such, I remember that a while ago all the > world seemed to swap music via Napster. Then Napster was closed down, and > started to come back, using the Internet to seel online music for money. I > find this idea a little strange, as I don't think Napster was successfull > because it made music available via the Internet, but because this music > was *free*. On the other hand, if people now had to pay in order to > download music from the 'Net, they might as well buy the CD. In addition, > if we'd turn the concept around, i.e. selling Napster music for mony and > making CDs available for free, everything would be reversed, so that > everyone would get the CDs. This seems to prove that the popular thing > about Napster was *not* that it "worked over the Internet", but that the > music it provides was free. > It *was* cool to see what real people were doing with their computers in their spare time. The rush to make big $$ turned the Internet into the focal point of many company strategies and so now we have a worldwide community with big factories, good-sized organizations, and small home (pages.) The 'Net has become like us, 'cause we made it. > > As such, I don't think business plans that want to make money from the > Internet could be very successful. Only imagine if you'd have to pay a > monthly fee for every (commercial site) you visit, or for every document > you download at such a site. I guess that would highly decrease the > popularity of the web, yet I guess there are at least some commercial > content providers that would like to charge you money for accessing their > stuff... > Many, many of them. Read the following regarding .NET **************************************** "Strategy: Blueprint shrouded in mystery" By: Mike Ricciuti Staff Writer, CNET News.com October 18, 2001, 4:00 a.m. PT read it at: http://news.com.com/2009-1001-274344.html?legacy=cnet "This whole thing is driven by the fact that Microsoft has hundreds of millions of Windows users out there, but Microsoft doesn't have a direct monthly billing relationship with those users," said Matt Rosoff, an analyst at Directions on Microsoft. "That's their consumer strategy, in a nutshell." *************************************** > Greetings > Nils > > Kevin Kinsey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 2: 2:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mars.elim.net (elim.net [203.239.130.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7996537B40B; Thu, 16 May 2002 01:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmkhcfbm.drsvef.edu.br ([210.102.0.148]) by mars.elim.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g4G8jFoQ022166; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:45:15 +0900 (KST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:45:15 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <200205160845.g4G8jFoQ022166@mars.elim.net> From: To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: =?EUC-KR?B?SDQ1vNK52sfRILLeQEknPTlmPA==?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ÀÖ´Â °÷¿¡ ¶ÇÇÑ ±â»ÝÀÌ ÀÖ´Ù. -±«Å× ¿©ÀÚÀÇ ÀÏ»ý µ¿¾È¿¡ Âü´Ù¿î ºñ±ØÀ̶õ ´Ü ÇÑ °¡Áö ¹Û¿¡ ¾ø´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº °ú°ÅÁö»ç¸¦ ¾ðÁ¦³ª ³²Æíó·³ »ý°¢ÇÏ¿© ´Ü³äÇØ ¹ö¸®´Â ÀÏÀÌ´Ù. -¿À½ºÄ« ¿ÍÀÏµå ¹ÞÀ¸½Ã´Â ºÐ²² ÇÊ¿äÇÑ Á¤º¸°¡ µÇ±æ ¹Ù¶ó¸ç º¸³»µå¸³´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸Áö ¾ÊÀº°æ¿ì¶ó¸é Áø½ÉÀ¸·Î »çÁ˵帳´Ï´Ù. 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7.0 for Microstation SE 5¸¸¿ø C-075³ª¢Ã MicroStation ReproGraphics 7.0 for PowerDraft 5¸¸¿ø C-075´Ù¢Ã MicroStation ReproGraphics V7.0 for Microstation/J 5¸¸¿ø C-076¢Ã MicroStation 95 ÇÑ±Û (¸¶ÀÌÅ©·Î ½ºÅ×À̼Ç) ÇÑ+¿µ C-076³ª¢Ã microstation v8 -5¸¸¿ø C-077¢Ã MiniCAD VACTOR WORKS v8.0 (99³â ½Åǰijµå) 2¸¸¿ø C-078¢Ã NASTRAN 70.52 5¸¸¿ø C-078³ª¢Ã MSC Visual Nastran Desktop 2001 5¸¸¿ø C-079¢Ã NASTRAN CAM/CAD v4.4 5¸¸¿ø C-080¢Ã ORCAD SUITE 9.0 Power Connection 4¸¸¿ø C-080³ª¢Ã ORCAD V9.1 Power Connection 5¸¸¿ø C-080´Ù¢Ã ORCAD V9.2(Á¤½Ä Ç®) ÃÊÃÖ½Å! 6¸¸¿ø C-081¢Ã PSPICE 8.0 (Á¤½Ä-Ç®) 3¸¸¿ø C-082¢Ã Protel 99 2¸¸¿ø C-082³ª¢Ã PROTEL 99 SE (with ServicePack1-6) 2 ¸¸¿ø C-135¢Ã PROTEUS 5.2.03 (ÇÁ·ÎÅ׿콺) 2¸¸¿ø C-084¢Ã PCAD 2000 -3¸¸¿ø C-085¢Ã Pads POWER LOGIC 1.2 (ÀüÀÚȸ·Î°ü·Ã) C-086¢Ã Pads Specctra Route Engine v7.1.4(ÃֽŠÀüÀÚȸ·Î ¼³°è °ü·ÃÅø) 2¸¸¿ø C-119¢Ã Pads Power PCB BlazeRouter 3.5 -5¸¸¿ø C-087¢Ã Point line CAD V15.0 (630¸Þ°¡-Á¤½ÄÇ®) 2¸¸¿ø C-088-0¢Ã PTC Icem DDN 3.404 Revision.F 3¸¸¿ø C-088-0³ª¢Ã ICEM CFD 4.1 3¸¸¿ø C-088¢Ã Pro / ENGINEER (ÇÁ·Î¿£Áö´Ï¾î) V.20 2CD 4¸¸¿ø C-088³ª¢Ã Pro Engineer (ÇÁ·Î¿£Áö´Ï¾î) 2000i (Build 1999390- 355¸Þ°¡) 5¸¸¿ø C-088´Ù¢Ã Pro Engineer (ÇÁ·Î¿£Áö´Ï¾î) 2000i.2 (Datecode 2001040-513¸Þ°¡)for Win9X -5¸¸¿ø C-088¶ó¢Ã PTC Pro Engineer (ÇÁ·Î¿£Áö´Ï¾î) 2001 PreProduction -5¸¸¿ø C-088¸¶¢Ã PTC Pro Engineer v2000i.2 for NT -5¸¸¿ø C-088¹Ù¢Ã PTC Pro Engineer v2001 Final (Build 2001150) -5¸¸¿ø C-088»ç¢Ã PTC Pro Engineer v2001 Final win9x C-088¾Æ¢Ã PTC Pro Engineer v2001 for NT C-088Àڢà PTC Pro Engineer v2001 Multi Language -5¸¸¿ø C-088Â÷¢Ã PTC ProEngineer 2001 DateCode 2001320 (9X) 6¸¸¿ø C-088Ä«¢Ã PTC ProEngineer 2001 DateCode 2001320 (NT/2k) 6¸¸¿ø C-088Ÿ¢Ã PTC ProENGINEER 2001 DateCode 2001360 (XP¿ë!) 7¸¸¿ø C-089¢Ã Pro Mechanica(ÇÁ·Î¸ÅÄ«´ÏÄ«) V20.0 (ijµåÇؼ®°ü·Ã-406¸Þ°¡ Á¤½ÄÇ®) 4¸¸¿ø C-089³ª¢Ã Pro Mechanica 2000i for win9x -5¸¸¿ø C-089´Ù¢Ã PTC ProMechanica (ÇÁ·Î¸ÅÄ«´ÏÄ«)2001 5¸¸¿ø C-092¢Ã Rhino 3D Nurbs Modeler v1.0 2¸¸¿ø1 C-092³ª¢Ã RHINO 3D V1.1 -3¸¸¿ø C-092´Ù¢Ã Rhino V 2.0 -3¸¸¿ø C-093¢Ã SmartCAM V10 [95/98/NT] 5¸¸¿ø C-094¢Ã Design wave 3.0 ( ±â°è¼³°è°ü·Ã ijµå) C-095¢Ã SolidWorks(¼Ö¸®µå¿÷½º) 2000(À©µµ¿ì98 ¹× NT °øÅë) ÁÖ:5¸¸¿ø C-095³ª¢Ã SOLIDWORKS(¼Ö¸®µå¿÷½º) 2001(Win9x/NT/2000) 2CD(Ç®) 10¸¸¿ø C-096¢Ã Super Scape VRT V5.60 (À¥,ȨÆäÀÌÁöÂÊ¿¡¼­ ãÀ¸¼¼¿ä) C-097¢Ã SurvCADD98 [for AutoCAD R14] C-098¢Ã Turbo Cad Solid Modeler 2.00.544 (c) IMSI C-099¢Ã TurboCAD V5.0 (Build 19.0)[ for Windows 9x / NT4] 3¸¸¿ø C-100¢Ã TurboSketch 4.5 (Build 112) [for Windows 9x / NT4] 3¸¸¿ø C-101¢Ã UniCAD(À¯´Ïijµå) v1.0 2¸¸¿ø C-102¢Ã ÀüÀÚȸ·Î°ü·Ã Xilinx(ÀÚÀϸµ½º) Foundation 2.1i C-102³ª¢Ã Xilinx Foundation Series ISE 4.li (ÀüÀÚȸ·Î°ü·Ã) 2cd 5¸¸¿ø C-103¢Ã Intergraph Smart Sketch v3.0 ( 2000³â ½Å»óÇ°,ijµå°ü·Ã) C-104¢Ã Intergraph Geomedia version 2 (GIS°ü·Ã Åø) C-104³ª¢Ã Intergraph Geomedia Professional 4.0.22.12 -3¸¸¿ø C-105¢Ã LEONARDO: The Inventor 2.0 (ÀüÀÚ°ü·Ã) 3¸¸¿ø C-106¢Ã IDEAS v6.1 4CD 10¸¸¿ø C-106³ª¢Ã IDEAS v8M2 2cd 6¸¸¿ø C-106´Ù¢Ã IDEAS v8M4 update 3¸¸¿ø C-107¢Ã HP Advanced 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Z-060¢Ã ÆæÆ® ÇϿ콺 ¿Â´õ ¿ÍÀÏµå »çÀ̵å Z-061¢Ã Flower Canman Z-062¢Ã Intermate joumey(??¿©Çà?) Z-063¢Ã Baby watch(º£À̺ñ¿ÍÄ¡) Z-064¢Ã ASIAN INVASION(µ¿¾çÀÎÀÇ Ä§·«) Z-065¢Ã ºñ¹ÐÀÇ È­¿ø To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 5:29:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts5m-pool0-178.gti.net [208.216.126.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D2537B404 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 05:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GCcNF74331; Thu, 16 May 2002 08:38:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2002 08:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2595.127.0.0.1.1021552705.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 08:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: The road ahead? From: "Mark Yeck" To: tlambert2@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: <3CE3480E.F0997173@mindspring.com> References: <3CE3480E.F0997173@mindspring.com> Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry wrote: > An anecdote, FWIW... > > After almost 22 years since someone first paid me to bang on > a computer keyboard, I have bought my first printer. > > I use it to print driving directions, and to create things > like non-disclosure agreements, invoices, and purchase > orders. > > Mostly, it's for driving directions. You know you can download tbose to your palm pilot these days. -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 6:18: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84ABD37B40A for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 06:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 662463FC9C; Thu, 16 May 2002 15:18:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:18:01 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org>; from nils@daemon.tisys.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:49:09AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:49:09AM +0200, Nils Holland wrote: Hi, First of all, congrats, funniest thing I've read in months :) > [...] > "e-commerce", "e-business", "e-book" and so on. Hell, this made me sick -= I > always thought any sane business man would actually have brains - back in > the mid-90s, however, this didn't seem to be the case, as even a product > called "e-shit" would probably have been successful back then. (Note that > nobody would have asked what kind of product that actually is - as look as > it starts with e- it must be good). Well, it seems the suits learned the lesson the hard way. Even with lots of VC cash I doubt you could sell something called e-shit :-) Well, maybe Bill Gates could ;-) You are right about the dot-bomb thing, just have a quick look at www.fuckedcompany.com and how things have changed since '97 or so. One fine example is Eazel, they burned $11M of VC cash and never made a single dollar, not that their product (Nautilus) is bad, just they never had a (serious) business model. > wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone > writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz > one? Microsoft has taken care of that, and you need a more powerful computer for each release of Windows, Office, etc. > Bill Gates released Windows, and - hell - now every idiot could > point-and-click! Early Windows, up to and including 3.1 was not very nice > (I could also use swear words at this point), so a *new* version of Windo= ws > followed, called Windows 95. Of course, people had to buy this stuff, and Create an idiot proof OS and the world will create a better idiot. Here I see people tend to either think that computers are a tool and should be accesible to everyone, or, like a friend of mine says: an internet license should be required. I partially agree that people should know a bit of what they're doing when they carelessly plug their computer to the net. I think we're all a bit tired of apache logs filled with nimda, code red, etc attacks. IMHO this is the fault of not only OS vendors but sometimes the press too, who create a false impression that security is something secondary. > And suddenly - BANG! Seems that the computer industry has nothing to offer > beyond that. And that's why it's stuck, having financial problems. My fastest computer is a dual pIII 550Mhz, slow compared to today's standards (2Ghz, anyone?), yet this box builds world in less than 40mins, even with me doing other work. Unfortunately the Mhz war between Intel and AMD hasn't done anything good for most people's needs, I'd rather have a 500Mhz cpu that doesn't need a monster fan+heatsink (yes AMD, if I want a room heater I'll buy one :) than a 2Ghz cpu that sits idle all the time. Motorola seems to be doing it right, their processors need far less power, I might even consider getting a ppc board some day. > While the performance of silicon technology may be increasing by whatever > insane factor every year, I don't see too many occasions where such I've also noticed this in the graphics arena. Have you guys seen the latest card from Matrox? 80 million transistors. Heck, my Amiga's 68040 barely has 1.2 million :) It's getting crazy. Fortunately it seems that the gfx guys start focusing on other than how-much-Mpixels/sec-can-I-fill. Someone else has mentioned the palm devices. As a Palm owner I have to say I'm very happy with it. I'm used to grafitti and like it. Just my 0.02EUR --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE847GJnLctrNyFFPERAsPCAJ9adherwEgrVEqQwS8B+n/CJfe5/gCdHcSa Do46K9RXak7UD31UN22RVXI= =Pg9c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 6:25:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B95837B406 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 06:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a103.otenet.gr [212.205.215.103]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GDOoHL018975; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:24:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GDOn6m094284; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:24:49 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GDOkfB094283; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:24:46 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:24:46 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Terry Lambert , Matthew Emmerton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: national security backdoor in FreeBSD. Message-ID: <20020516132445.GA94084@hades.hell.gr> References: <3CE295EC.6030603@cogeco.ca> <009c01c1fc95$74fd0470$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3CE33C1F.A547AE4D@mindspring.com> <1021525918.3132.0.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1021525918.3132.0.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-16 14:41, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > > [[[ someone unknown, since i deleted the original post, wrote ]]] > > > source. So where do these binaries-with-no-source come from? Oh, I know! > > > Carnivore detects FreeBSD ISO downloads, and tells the Magic Lantern > > > software on my ISP's servers to change the binaries inside the ISO images > > > that I FTP. Makes perfect sense! Bwahaha. Yeah right. I mean, we all know that they (I have deliberately left `they' as vague as possible) have these huge machines that intercept all the file transfers between the west and east side of the Atlantic. Their supercomputers are powered by a secret source of power, that has been discovered at the ruins of Atlantis. Every single file download is checked, and if it is found to be the download of a FreeBSD ISO image, it's extracted on a temporary area, patched, then mkisofs is run again to repackage it in a valid ISO image, and the receiver gets his tampered copy of FreeBSD without knowing its been tampered with. There have been attempts to distribute checksums of the files WITHIN the cdrom images at other places, to make checking if the files are valid easy. But THEY can't allow that. A blacklist of files that contain checksums of existing files has been made, and ALL such files are patched on the fly with the checksums of the TAMPERED files. Oh, and of course Elvis is alive. He's the one who runs the management part of this project. Photographs have been found that show him come out of the Atlantic, as another Captain Nemo, to report to US NAVY officers after an incident with script kiddies attacking the supercomputers of the city at the bottom of Atlantic. Run everyone !!! Run !!! - Giorgos [PS: I just love weaving totally unrelated things to yet another paranoia story :)] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 7:15:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.otenet.gr (ns1.otenet.gr [195.170.0.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE9337B7C0 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 07:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by ns1.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GEBbwH028503 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:11:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a033.otenet.gr [212.205.215.33]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GE9WHL011884; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:09:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GDV56m094318; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:31:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GDV5sR094317; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:31:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:31:05 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516133105.GB94084@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <042001c1fc8c$f5922060$3dec910c@daleco> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <042001c1fc8c$f5922060$3dec910c@daleco> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-15 22:51, "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > Technology is almost always of interest. Mankind is creative, and > often lazy at the same time; we seek creative ways to avoid the > harsher forms of labor. The funny thing that has always striken me as, well, funny, about all this is that we spend time and effort, while trying to find those creative ways ;) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 8:29:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B499037B406 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 08:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-141.wobline.de [212.68.69.149]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4GFSs519088 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:28:55 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GFSqo2035830 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:28:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GFTSV2007806 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 17:29:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:28:53 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net>; from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:18:01PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 5:08PM up 8:25, 1 user, load averages: 0.04, 0.01, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:18:01PM +0200, Miguel Mendez stood up and spoke: > > Create an idiot proof OS and the world will create a better idiot. Here > I see people tend to either think that computers are a tool and should > be accesible to everyone, or, like a friend of mine says: an internet > license should be required. I partially agree that people should know a > bit of what they're doing when they carelessly plug their computer to > the net. I think we're all a bit tired of apache logs filled with nimda, > code red, etc attacks. IMHO this is the fault of not only OS vendors but > sometimes the press too, who create a false impression that security is > something secondary. This reminds me of two things: 1) I have often helped people with their computer problems. If their machine no longer boots, and it turns out that the hard disk has died, I figure that it'd be a good idea for people not to exchange it themselves. Someone who knows about such stuff should probably do it, and I don't have anything against people calling me if they are having such problems. *BUT* it occurs now and then that people want me to help them with stupid stuff. Someone would call me up and say: "I just scanned this image, and now I cannot change the background color. Could you do this for me?" Well, of course I could, but obviously I won't. If people buy computers, I guess they should at least spend some time getting familiar with the basics, and reading the fucking manual. This problem, however, could also be blamed to the software vendors, as they no longer seem to supply real manuals with their product. The online help, however, is always your friend ;-) 2) About security: I recently set up another FreeBSD box. It had Apache installed, and when I initially connected it to the Internet via ppp / modem, I had no firewall or protection in place. Now I found it very interesting how many NIMDA request strings I found in my Apache logs after being connected for only an hour - and this when using a modem with a dynmaic IP address. I guess that if I find ten our so NIMDA entries in my logs after having been connected for only an hour, a whole lot of Windows machines will still have to be infected, and that *months* after patches started to be available. This probably proves that many people don't really know what they are doing. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 9:21:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41BDD37B406 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.63] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id AC1317A021C; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:19:31 -0500 Message-ID: <05b801c1fcf5$878df8a0$3dec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Nils Holland" Cc: Subject: Re: The road ahead? Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:19:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ]I guess that if I find ten our so NIMDA entries in my logs after having ]been connected for only an hour, a whole lot of Windows machines will still ]have to be infected, and that *months* after patches started to be ]available. This probably proves that many people don't really know what ]they are doing. ] ]Greetings ]Nils Absolutely....and furthermore, they don't really care, I guess. We had to have electricity, we had to have phone, we had to have TV, we had to have cable, we had to have a dialup to the WWW, we had to have a cell phone, we have to get broadband..... and it just sits over there in a corner of the living room doing "nothing" until I want to shop, read the news or find hot pix of Christina Aguilera. It's in my house, how can it be hurting anyone else...... I don't know if this'll mean much to you, being from Germany, but most of the IP blocks that scan my servers with Nimda seem to be cable modems in Arkansas.......now I'm sure that there are several folks there who are much better at computers than me, but there's a lot of them who are hazardous to your bandwidth..... Kevin Kinsey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 9:26: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7493937B40B for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14597 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 16:25:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:25:01 -0500 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org>, Nils Holland typed: > Another thing I'd like to mention is that I guess the Internet is > successful because it's free. As such, I remember that a while ago all the > world seemed to swap music via Napster. Then Napster was closed down, and > started to come back, using the Internet to seel online music for money. I > find this idea a little strange, as I don't think Napster was successfull > because it made music available via the Internet, but because this music > was *free*. On the other hand, if people now had to pay in order to > download music from the 'Net, they might as well buy the CD. I disagree, because I think people are fundamentally honest enough to buy it if they don't think they're being ripped off. I don't know of anyone selling music that way. The music industry has the right kind of price point, selling you things for pennies per song. However, the product they offer isn't reasonable, as you can't use your favorite player, you can't copy it to an mp3 player, and it eventuall expires. The last time I looked royalties for music was typically pennies per album - and I'd love current information. Give somebody a small markup - or even a large one per song - over that, and I think people would buy it. The problem is that that the big publishing companies and the RIAA currently take a slice of the profits, and they obviously aren't willing to endorse any mechanism that leaves them out of the cash flow. So much so that they're trying to force every computer buyer to pay more for their computer just so they can enforce the model they want. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 9:41:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F9B37B401; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.63] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A0F628E9011A; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:40:22 -0500 Message-ID: <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Matthias Buelow" Cc: , References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:40:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthias Buelow" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 9:31 AM Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex > Ross Lippert writes: > > >that they have no problem proclaiming that there is UNIX underneathe their > >new OS. > >1) have I misunderstood the UNIX versus UN*X branding/naming issue? > >2) (if no) has apple bought itself a rubber stamp from the trademark holders? > > Oh, yes, I can already see the almighty The Open Group sue > Apple Computers, Inc. for trademark abuse. *laughs* > > > --mkb Which would be very interesting since they don't seem to exist, or at least the link on the page Ross dropped to us didn't find a domain..... When Novell bought Unix Systems Labs, didn't the "who *owns* Unix wars" die for lack of enthusiasm? Kevin Kinsey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 10:27: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4212037B403 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-164.wobline.de [212.68.69.172]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4GHQR501648; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:26:27 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GHQPo2036272; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:26:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GHR1sc009019; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:27:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:25:46 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 11:25:01AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 7:14PM up 10:31, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 11:25:01AM -0500, Mike Meyer stood up and spoke: > > The problem is that that the big publishing companies and the > RIAA currently take a slice of the profits, and they obviously aren't > willing to endorse any mechanism that leaves them out of the cash > flow. So much so that they're trying to force every computer buyer to > pay more for their computer just so they can enforce the model they > want. As said previously, I live in Germany, but if what I have been reading / hearing recently is correct, then the US publishing companies (or whoever) want to make it illegal for users to use any device that doesn't include the copyright protection mechanisms they have created. Finding ways around such mechanisms in devices that do employ them should also be illegal according to them. I should probably try to get some more in-depth information on that topic, but from the bits and pieces I currently know, this is very insane. Seems that some companies want to make *any* technology illegal that *could* theoretically be used to violate the copyright. That's somhow like outlawing ordinary knives, as these could (illegally) be used to kill people... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 10:31:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F07B37B416 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GHUnH39129 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:30:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA87691 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:30:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:30:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nils Holland Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Nils Holland , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org>; from nils@daemon.tisys.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 07:25:46PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland said on May 16, 2002 at 19:25:46: > > I should probably try to get some more in-depth information on that topic, > but from the bits and pieces I currently know, this is very insane. Seems > that some companies want to make *any* technology illegal that *could* > theoretically be used to violate the copyright. That's somhow like > outlawing ordinary knives, as these could (illegally) be used to kill > people... That's exactly what the DMCA is about. This week's lwn.net has an interesting comment: recently people have reported that copy-protected audio CDs can be played/ripped simply by covering their outer tracks with a black marker or a Post-It. If that is so, black markers and Post-Its are devices that can be used to circumvent digital copy controls, and therefore should be illegal under the DMCA... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 10:58:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D3D37B417 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178PW2-0004fs-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:58:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3F318.64915748@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 10:57:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Yeck Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <3CE3480E.F0997173@mindspring.com> <2595.127.0.0.1.1021552705.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Yeck wrote: > Terry wrote: > > An anecdote, FWIW... > > > > After almost 22 years since someone first paid me to bang on > > a computer keyboard, I have bought my first printer. > > > > I use it to print driving directions, and to create things > > like non-disclosure agreements, invoices, and purchase > > orders. > > > > Mostly, it's for driving directions. > > You know you can download tbose to your palm pilot these days. The only drawbacks there are that: 1) I can't really get at the information one-handed while I'm quickly approaching an exit. 2) The screen resolution on the pilot sucks, so it's not really possible to see enough of a map to take an alternate route (e.g. 880S instead of 101S). 3) Then I would own a palm pilot. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11: 1: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (wi4d22.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.101.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A00937B405; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 864CAAF7D; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:00:48 +0200 From: Matthias Buelow To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex Message-ID: <20020516180048.GE2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. writes: [the open group] >Which would be very interesting since they don't seem to exist, >or at least the link on the page Ross dropped to us didn't find >a domain..... > >When Novell bought Unix Systems Labs, didn't the "who *owns* >Unix wars" die for lack of enthusiasm? How about http://www.opengroup.org/ and http://www.unix-systems.org/ ? On http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/the_brand.html: "The UNIX brand is part of The Open Group's internationally recognized portfolio of open systems brands which represent the three primary ingredients required for open systems: [...]" --mkb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:12: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4F337B403; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Pj5-0007ej-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:11:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3F641.4E990CB3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:11:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > > Oh, yes, I can already see the almighty The Open Group sue > > Apple Computers, Inc. for trademark abuse. *laughs* Apple can do this because they have a UNIX license, which permits them to use the trademark like this. > When Novell bought Unix Systems Labs, didn't the "who *owns* > Unix wars" die for lack of enthusiasm? No. It was a long, incredibly difficult internal war, waged by many people, including myself, the Bell Labs folks, and the people who founded Caldera, among a cast of thousands. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:18:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11CA37B40C; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Pp0-0000O8-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:17:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3F7AE.B365D6E3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:17:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthias Buelow Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> <20020516180048.GE2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthias Buelow wrote: > On http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/the_brand.html: > > "The UNIX brand is part of The Open Group's internationally > recognized portfolio of open systems brands which represent > the three primary ingredients required for open systems: > [...]" The trademark was exclusively licensed to them by Novell. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:24:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD48037B409; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GIOfH46279 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:24:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA90055 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:24:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:24:41 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex Message-ID: <20020516202441.I79514@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> <3CE3F641.4E990CB3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CE3F641.4E990CB3@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 11:11:13AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 16, 2002 at 11:11:13: > > > Oh, yes, I can already see the almighty The Open Group sue > > > Apple Computers, Inc. for trademark abuse. *laughs* > > Apple can do this because they have a UNIX license, which permits > them to use the trademark like this. That's what I seem to remember from a year or so ago, but I can't find Apple listed on any of the "Open Branded Products" pages at http://www.opengroup.org The Unix 98 registered products are from Compaq, IBM, NCR, SUN. There are also Unix98 server, Unix98 workstation, and Unix95 registered products -- the last includes HP, SGI, FSC and Caldera, but no Apple. See http://www.opengroup.org/regproducts/complist.htm (the Unix93 link doesn't work). A search on their on-site search engine for MacOS gives only one, irrelevant hit. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:30:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AB737B40A for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Q0a-0004rw-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:29:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3FA7D.9743E0E@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:29:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > Someone else has mentioned the palm devices. As a Palm owner I have to > say I'm very happy with it. I'm used to grafitti and like it. I will become worried about Grafitti when people start to write on paper that way. Until then, it's really a one-way encoding mechanism. I think any time you have to change humans to benefit the machines, it's a mistake. It means someone was lazy. In fact, there are third party hand writing recognition systems for Palm's these days, which permit you to just write, rather than making you write Grafitti. One of the things that got Palm into the hearts of the early adopters (read: "geeks") was the "leetness factor" that came with you having to know something that no one else knew, which was the magic incantations necessary to talk to the things. Until real handwriting recognition makes it into these devices, I think they will achieve about the same penetration into the general population as "The Klingon Dictionary". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:34:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E8337B401; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Q4s-00038w-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:34:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3FB86.62AAE555@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:33:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> <3CE3F641.4E990CB3@mindspring.com> <20020516202441.I79514@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > Oh, yes, I can already see the almighty The Open Group sue > > > > Apple Computers, Inc. for trademark abuse. *laughs* > > > > Apple can do this because they have a UNIX license, which permits > > them to use the trademark like this. > > That's what I seem to remember from a year or so ago, but I can't find > Apple listed on any of the "Open Branded Products" pages at > http://www.opengroup.org > The Unix 98 registered products are from Compaq, IBM, NCR, SUN. There > are also Unix98 server, Unix98 workstation, and Unix95 registered > products -- the last includes HP, SGI, FSC and Caldera, but no Apple. > See http://www.opengroup.org/regproducts/complist.htm (the > Unix93 link doesn't work). A search on their on-site search engine > for MacOS gives only one, irrelevant hit. You are looking in the wrong place. Look in the section defining the rules for the use of the trademark. All they have to do is include some of the UNIX code anywhere in the product, and it's UNIX-derived and therefore permitted to use the trademark on it. This was a grandfather clause to prevent failure to pass the certification process resulting in loss of use of the trademark. It's an acknowledgement that what people were paying for was not the source code, but the right to use the trademark. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:41: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73FD337B404 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178QAO-0002wV-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:39:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE3FCDC.2CF32A7C@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:39:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <042001c1fc8c$f5922060$3dec910c@daleco> <20020516133105.GB94084@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-05-15 22:51, "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > > Technology is almost always of interest. Mankind is creative, and > > often lazy at the same time; we seek creative ways to avoid the > > harsher forms of labor. > > The funny thing that has always striken me as, well, funny, about all > this is that we spend time and effort, while trying to find those > creative ways ;) The thing that strikes me is that there are Japanese automobile manufacturing plants that are 93% automated, and the most automated American plant is down around 46%. Also, when NeXT machines were being produced, the entire factory was pretty much runnable by 2 people. I don't know what Cannon did with the factory after they bought it and switched it over to nothing but laser printer engine production, or what happened subsequent to that, but I'm guessing it now takes more than 2 people. A lot of jobs are unnecessary, but until we do something about the way the economy operates, you're going to continue to see incredible back-pressure from people who fear the future. The labor unions keeping automation out of Detroit are only the tip of the iceberg. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:41:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A8937B40B for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GIfKH48545 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:41:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA90811 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:41:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:41:20 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Miguel Mendez , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) Message-ID: <20020516204120.J79514@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Miguel Mendez , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE3FA7D.9743E0E@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CE3FA7D.9743E0E@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 11:29:17AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 16, 2002 at 11:29:17: > > I will become worried about Grafitti when people start to > write on paper that way. Until then, it's really a one-way > encoding mechanism. > > I think any time you have to change humans to benefit the > machines, it's a mistake. It means someone was lazy. You could have said that about the typewriter. You can say it about the computer keyboard. Pressing a key, or pressing two keys at a time, is a "one-way encoding mechanism" too. Sure, proper handwriting recognition would be "better" in some sense, but people wanted functioning palm-pilots "now", not several years down the line. Would handwriting recognition be faster? Not necessarily. Note-takers often still use shorthand. I think even when we can write with our hands on computer touch pads, or talk to them, and have them understand us, keyboards will still be the way we do most of our work. Even before computers, I know of many people who preferred typing not because their handwriting was bad but because typing was faster. Similarly for a pocket device like the palmpilot, some form of "graffiti" may continue to be useful too. The real point about it is not that it's one-way or that it requires humans to change, but that it's not in any sense a standard (yet). - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:50:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF16137B405; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GIomH50090 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:50:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA91206 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 20:50:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:50:48 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex Message-ID: <20020516205048.K79514@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200205161409.HAA06888@eskimo.com> <20020516143155.GA2094@reiher.informatik.uni-wuerzburg> <060c01c1fcf8$7082e500$3dec910c@daleco> <3CE3F641.4E990CB3@mindspring.com> <20020516202441.I79514@lpt.ens.fr> <3CE3FB86.62AAE555@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CE3FB86.62AAE555@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 11:33:42AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 16, 2002 at 11:33:42: > > > > That's what I seem to remember from a year or so ago, but I can't find > > Apple listed on any of the "Open Branded Products" pages at > > You are looking in the wrong place. > > Look in the section defining the rules for the use of the > trademark. URL? Anyway, according to their faq: http://www.unix-systems.org/questions_answers.html#0 Q. What systems are registered UNIX systems? A. * The majority of commercial vendors have registered UNIX 95 products. More recent releases are now being registered as UNIX 98 products. See the product register for the lists of registered products. (the link to registered products is essentially the same as what I sent; no Apple there.) ... Q. What types of product can bear the UNIX Brand? A. * Only those computer operating system that implement the services as specified in the Specification set(s) for UNIX 93 , UNIX 95 or UNIX 98. > All they have to do is include some of the UNIX > code anywhere in the product, and it's UNIX-derived and > therefore permitted to use the trademark on it. So now that FreeBSD includes the One True Awk, it qualifies for the UNIX trademark? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:53:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1592B37B400 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2060 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 18:52:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:52:36 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Nils Holland said on May 16, 2002 at 19:25:46: > > I should probably try to get some more in-depth information on that topic, > > but from the bits and pieces I currently know, this is very insane. Seems > > that some companies want to make *any* technology illegal that *could* > > theoretically be used to violate the copyright. That's somhow like > > outlawing ordinary knives, as these could (illegally) be used to kill > > people... > That's exactly what the DMCA is about. Half right. The DMCA proper doesn't have the hardware requirement on the computer industry, nor does it make it illegal to break the encryption even if you don't violate the copyright. The DMCA is law, and makes it illegal to *tell* someone how to break the encryption, or sell devices that can be used to break the encryption. So if Stephen King bought a copy of his novel as a PC e-book, you couldn't legally give him the software to read it on the Mac, or tell him how to do it. If he figured out how to break it himself, or got the software to break it illegally, his actually breaking the encryption software wouldn't be illegal under the DMCA. People have already been arrested for violating the DMCA. There was a bill called "DMCA Title II" until the authors decided to put a positive spin on it and change the name to "Security Systems Standards and Certification Act". This is the bill that has the hardware requirements in it. It also makes breaking the encryption illegal, and puts control of encryption research in the hands of the MPAA and RIAA. And some naive people thought the publishers had overextended themselves with DMCA, and it was going to be retracted. > This week's lwn.net has an interesting comment: recently people have > reported that copy-protected audio CDs can be played/ripped simply by > covering their outer tracks with a black marker or a Post-It. If that > is so, black markers and Post-Its are devices that can be used to > circumvent digital copy controls, and therefore should be illegal > under the DMCA... lwn.net is in violation of the DMCA. The people using black tape etc. are not, but would be in violation of the SSSCA if it were passed. And Stephen King couldn't legally use a Mac to read his own novel sold for use on a PC. Finally, people who own Mac's that came with flatpanel displays have discovered that these not-quite-CD things will cause their Mac to lock the CD drive, requiring a technician to get the thing to release. This wonderful thing is from the country that brought you the scopes monkey trial. America - entertaining the world. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 11:56:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hobbiton.shire.net (frogmorton.shire.net [204.228.145.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A8E37B41E; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [68.64.98.90] (helo=lime.objectwerks.com) by hobbiton.shire.net with asmtp (Exim 3.36 #8) id 178QPw-000Do4-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 14:56:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:55:44 -0400 Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Cc: Terry Lambert , "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC In-Reply-To: <20020516205048.K79514@lpt.ens.fr> Message-Id: <86D234B0-68FE-11D6-93D6-0003931BED80@shire.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, May 16, 2002, at 02:50 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> All they have to do is include some of the UNIX >> code anywhere in the product, and it's UNIX-derived and >> therefore permitted to use the trademark on it. > > So now that FreeBSD includes the One True Awk, it qualifies for the > UNIX trademark? Is Apple saying it is UNIX or it is UNIX-like or UNIX-derived or UNIX-something else? Chad To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12: 2: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CD437B401 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GJ1sH51962 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:01:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA91727 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:01:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:01:54 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1022007157.577b53@mired.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 01:52:36PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on May 16, 2002 at 13:52:36: > In <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > > Nils Holland said on May 16, 2002 at 19:25:46: > > > I should probably try to get some more in-depth information on that topic, > > > but from the bits and pieces I currently know, this is very insane. Seems > > > that some companies want to make *any* technology illegal that *could* > > > theoretically be used to violate the copyright. That's somhow like > > > outlawing ordinary knives, as these could (illegally) be used to kill > > > people... > > That's exactly what the DMCA is about. > > Half right. The DMCA proper doesn't have the hardware requirement on > the computer industry, nor does it make it illegal to break the > encryption even if you don't violate the copyright. I'm not sure about private use, but it *does* forbid you to tell people how you break encryption, and it *does* outlaw devices which let you break the encryption, regardless of intent. That's exactly what both the DeCSS and the Sklyarov cases were about -- both DeCSS and Elcomsoft's program have legitimate uses but that doesn't matter under the DMCA. It's an exact analogy to the knife example above. > > This week's lwn.net has an interesting comment: recently people have > > reported that copy-protected audio CDs can be played/ripped simply by > > covering their outer tracks with a black marker or a Post-It. If that > > is so, black markers and Post-Its are devices that can be used to > > circumvent digital copy controls, and therefore should be illegal > > under the DMCA... > > lwn.net is in violation of the DMCA. The people using black tape > etc. are not, but would be in violation of the SSSCA if it were > passed. I'm not sure what the legal status is of people who use tape in their homes, but the manufacturers of the tape are already in violation of the DMCA for distributing a device which can be used to violate copy controls. The SSSCA (renamed CBDTPA) went further: it insisted that all computers and similar devices must include copy-control mechanisms. The DMCA forbids bypassing such mechanisms, while the CBDTPA insists on installing such mechanisms everywhere, so that you're thoroughly locked in. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:16:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736DF37B408 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-293.wobline.de [212.68.71.14]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4GJGN515383; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:16:23 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GJGLo2036774; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:16:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GJGwYk010966; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:16:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:15:42 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: Mike Meyer Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 01:52:36PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 9:06PM up 12:23, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.01, 0.03 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 01:52:36PM -0500, Mike Meyer stood up and spoke: > > Finally, people who own Mac's that came with flatpanel displays have > discovered that these not-quite-CD things will cause their Mac to lock > the CD drive, requiring a technician to get the thing to release. Well, I guess by the way the copy protection must be implemented on these CDs, they are no longer really red-book compliant. As such, putting the "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" is probably like lying to the customers - if something has been changed on the CD so that it cannot simply be copied, I guess the red book standard must have been violated. And although I don't currently have any information about copy protected audio CDs (I should also read about that topic), I wouldn't be amazed if at least some people have problems playing these discs in their "normal" CD players... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:24:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB3B37B404 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Qrm-0005kd-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:24:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:24:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > 1) I have often helped people with their computer problems. If their > machine no longer boots, and it turns out that the hard disk has died, I > figure that it'd be a good idea for people not to exchange it themselves. > Someone who knows about such stuff should probably do it, and I don't have > anything against people calling me if they are having such problems. > > *BUT* it occurs now and then that people want me to help them with stupid > stuff. Someone would call me up and say: "I just scanned this image, and > now I cannot change the background color. Could you do this for me?" > > Well, of course I could, but obviously I won't. If people buy computers, I > guess they should at least spend some time getting familiar with the > basics, and reading the fucking manual. This problem, however, could also > be blamed to the software vendors, as they no longer seem to supply real > manuals with their product. The online help, however, is always your friend > ;-) This is all Bob Wallace's fault. Really. Bob Wallace is the original author of "PC-Write". It was the first product his company "Quicksoft" (formed in 1983 after he left a five year stint at Microsoft) shipped. Bob is an interesting fellow; he is often credited with having invented "shareware". Bob was at a convention one time, and I got to see him asked about how shareware selling of software worked. He corrected his interviewer: "Software is all up here, it's not real;" he said, making hand motions around his temples, "what I sell is manuals". PC-Write was a pain to use. You could get minimal results out of it easily, but to get truly great results, you had to have the manual. The manual cost $75, and with it you got a disk with the most recent version of the software, and would be sent another disk with the next major release, when that happened. The difficulty involved in using the product without a manual was, in effect, a revenue protection strategy. In other words, the software was copy-protected, using obfuscation, rather than technical means. PC-Write was popular; your first "hit" was "free". At one point in time, it was the most popular word processing program on the PC, until Word Perfect started attacking Bob where he lived, and offered free technical support (PC-Write technical support was conditioned on buying the manual, and was limited in time). A lot of companies started and operated with the idea that the PC-Write software was the epitome of good software; they mimiced it's intentionally opfuscated UI, and other aspects of the software, which was itself cleverly counter-intuitive (so that Bob could sell his manuals). Bad style and practices were therefore enshrined; and none dare criticize them. In fact, we see echos of this most strongly in console based programs... like the FreeBSD installer. All because we are unknowingly creating "copy protected" software, and then not distributing the "keys" of a printed manual and paid technical support. It's really no wonder that most mailing lists are full of people asking "stupid questions" -- they are trying to get around the copy protection that the authors aren't even aware that they've included in their products. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:26:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A3EE837B419 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2703 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 19:26:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15588.2033.334082.580672@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:26:41 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Mike Meyer said on May 16, 2002 at 13:52:36: > > In <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > > > Nils Holland said on May 16, 2002 at 19:25:46: > > > > I should probably try to get some more in-depth information on that topic, > > > > but from the bits and pieces I currently know, this is very insane. Seems > > > > that some companies want to make *any* technology illegal that *could* > > > > theoretically be used to violate the copyright. That's somhow like > > > > outlawing ordinary knives, as these could (illegally) be used to kill > > > > people... > > > That's exactly what the DMCA is about. > > Half right. The DMCA proper doesn't have the hardware requirement on > > the computer industry, nor does it make it illegal to break the > > encryption even if you don't violate the copyright. > I'm not sure about private use, but it *does* forbid you to tell > people how you break encryption, and it *does* outlaw devices which > let you break the encryption, regardless of intent. That's exactly > what both the DeCSS and the Sklyarov cases were about -- both DeCSS > and Elcomsoft's program have legitimate uses but that doesn't matter > under the DMCA. It's an exact analogy to the knife example above. Um, no. The DMCA makes it illegal to *distribute* such device, not to *own* them. The Elcomsoft and DeCSS cases were because the people in question started *distributing* them. > > > This week's lwn.net has an interesting comment: recently people have > > > reported that copy-protected audio CDs can be played/ripped simply by > > > covering their outer tracks with a black marker or a Post-It. If that > > > is so, black markers and Post-Its are devices that can be used to > > > circumvent digital copy controls, and therefore should be illegal > > > under the DMCA... > > lwn.net is in violation of the DMCA. The people using black tape > > etc. are not, but would be in violation of the SSSCA if it were > > passed. > I'm not sure what the legal status is of people who use tape in their > homes, but the manufacturers of the tape are already in violation of > the DMCA for distributing a device which can be used to violate copy > controls. No, they're not. First, the DMCA only covers works that are copy protected by some mechanism. Second, there's a surcharge on audio and video tapes that goes to the MPAA/RIAA to distribute as royalties. The latter is part of a long-standing agreement making it legal to timeshift movies, brought about when Sony was sued for aiding and abetting copyright violation with the betamax. > The SSSCA (renamed CBDTPA) went further: it insisted that all > computers and similar devices must include copy-control mechanisms. > The DMCA forbids bypassing such mechanisms, while the CBDTPA insists > on installing such mechanisms everywhere, so that you're thoroughly > locked in. Yup. What does CBDTPA stand for? http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:29:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1295137B409; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178Qvn-0003vK-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:28:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE40852.EB497039@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:28:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Matthias Buelow , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex References: <86D234B0-68FE-11D6-93D6-0003931BED80@shire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC" wrote: > On Thursday, May 16, 2002, at 02:50 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> All they have to do is include some of the UNIX > >> code anywhere in the product, and it's UNIX-derived and > >> therefore permitted to use the trademark on it. > > > > So now that FreeBSD includes the One True Awk, it qualifies for the > > UNIX trademark? > > Is Apple saying it is UNIX or it is UNIX-like or UNIX-derived or > UNIX-something else? Apple has a license of "the one true UNIX": SVR4. The certification is only necessary if you don't have a license. Having "awk" doesn't make it UNIX; being derived from source code whose license includes the right to use the license to the trademark is what conveys the right to use the trademark. Apple has such a source license, and so they are grandfathered, as long as they include some of the code on the machine (A/UX). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:32:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A31937B400 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178QyW-00009I-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:31:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE408FB.886CAD1C@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:31:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > That's exactly what the DMCA is about. > > > > Half right. The DMCA proper doesn't have the hardware requirement on > > the computer industry, nor does it make it illegal to break the > > encryption even if you don't violate the copyright. > > I'm not sure about private use, but it *does* forbid you to tell > people how you break encryption, and it *does* outlaw devices which > let you break the encryption, regardless of intent. That's exactly > what both the DeCSS and the Sklyarov cases were about -- both DeCSS > and Elcomsoft's program have legitimate uses but that doesn't matter > under the DMCA. It's an exact analogy to the knife example above. I like that interpretation; it makes general purpose computers illegal, since they are devices which allow you to break encryption. Perhaps we can get algebra outlawed, as well, being as knowledge of it is a component of such a device... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:32:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7479637B409 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4GJWJY55283; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Terry Lambert Cc: Miguel Mendez , Nils Holland , Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) In-Reply-To: <3CE3FA7D.9743E0E@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020516123131.U52717-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Miguel Mendez wrote: > > Someone else has mentioned the palm devices. As a Palm owner I have to > > say I'm very happy with it. I'm used to grafitti and like it. > > I will become worried about Grafitti when people start to > write on paper that way. Until then, it's really a one-way > encoding mechanism. Too late -- many palm users complain that their handwriting slowly degrades after using grafitti. It screwed up my writing for a while. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:34: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rigel.grass.st (rigel.grass.st [195.197.32.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B1437B404 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by rigel.grass.st (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA59670 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:34:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from bsdchat) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:34:07 +0300 From: mika ruohotie To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: could someone do a favour... Message-ID: <20020516223407.A59298@rigel.grass.st> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org uh, for some reason i was unsubscribed from hackers list at april 26th and was able ro resub only today. could someone with all freebsd-hackers messages between april 26th to may 16th send those to me on a tar packet? if someone could, please follow up this so others see wont flood me... thanks. =) mickey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:34:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8E437B400 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0236.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.236] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178R0w-0003h1-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:34:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:33:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 01:52:36PM -0500, Mike Meyer stood up and spoke: > > Finally, people who own Mac's that came with flatpanel displays have > > discovered that these not-quite-CD things will cause their Mac to lock > > the CD drive, requiring a technician to get the thing to release. > > Well, I guess by the way the copy protection must be implemented on these > CDs, they are no longer really red-book compliant. As such, putting the > "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" is probably like lying to the customers - if > something has been changed on the CD so that it cannot simply be copied, I > guess the red book standard must have been violated. And although I don't > currently have any information about copy protected audio CDs (I should > also read about that topic), I wouldn't be amazed if at least some people > have problems playing these discs in their "normal" CD players... You should ask the EFF if it will support you filing a lawsuit under the "truth in advertising" laws. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:39:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233F237B40D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GJdhH57428 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:39:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA93499 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:39:42 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516213942.A92810@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15588.2033.334082.580672@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15588.2033.334082.580672@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1022009201.1eddc0@mired.org on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 02:26:41PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on May 16, 2002 at 14:26:41: > > I'm not sure about private use, but it *does* forbid you to tell > > people how you break encryption, and it *does* outlaw devices which > > let you break the encryption, regardless of intent. That's exactly > > what both the DeCSS and the Sklyarov cases were about -- both DeCSS > > and Elcomsoft's program have legitimate uses but that doesn't matter > > under the DMCA. It's an exact analogy to the knife example above. > > Um, no. The DMCA makes it illegal to *distribute* such device, not to > *own* them. The Elcomsoft and DeCSS cases were because the people in > question started *distributing* them. Well, if you obtained a knife, someone gave it to you or sold it to you, unless you manufacture knives. By "outlawing knives" I assume was meant "outlawing their distribution. I'm not sure about mere possession -- that may be a red herring, but "unauthorized access" of your own DVD is illegal under the DMCA, even if you wrote the code yourself -- you can't watch a DVD legally on a FreeBSD laptop. Strangely, copying under some circumstances may be legal. From http://www.loc.gov/copyright/legislation/dmca.pdf (page 3-4) Section 1201 divides technological measures into two categories: measures that prevent unauthorized *access* to a copyrighted work and measures that prevent unauthorized *copying* of a copyrighted work. Making or selling devices or services that are used to circumvent either category of technological measure is prohibited in certain circumstances, described below. As to the act of circumvention in itself, the provision prohibits circumventing the first of the technological measures, but not the second. Goes on to say that "fair use" may sometimes require unauthorized copying but never unauthorized access. Both DeCSS and Elcomsoft were about access. -- Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:40:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFB4F37B40F for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3031 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 19:40:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15588.2835.205506.706367@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:40:03 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert typed: > Bob was at a convention one time, and I got to see him asked > about how shareware selling of software worked. He corrected > his interviewer: "Software is all up here, it's not real;" he > said, making hand motions around his temples, "what I sell is > manuals". Adam Osborne then did just that. Gave away an accounting system, and made a fortune selling the manuals. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:41:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5CA637B400 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3102 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 19:41:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15588.2896.146472.876567@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:41:04 -0500 To: Nils Holland Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org>, Nils Holland typed: > Well, I guess by the way the copy protection must be implemented on these > CDs, they are no longer really red-book compliant. As such, putting the > "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" is probably like lying to the customers - if > something has been changed on the CD so that it cannot simply be copied, I > guess the red book standard must have been violated. Yup, and Phillips has protested this abuse of a term they are part owner of. I don't know if they've done anything on a legal basis, though. It doesn't seem likely with Sony being the other partner that owns the CD trademarks. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:42:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E60937B41A for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4GJfWH58208 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:41:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA93611 ; Thu, 16 May 2002 21:41:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:41:32 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nils Holland , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516214132.B92810@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:33:37PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 16, 2002 at 12:33:37: > > Well, I guess by the way the copy protection must be implemented on these > > CDs, they are no longer really red-book compliant. As such, putting the > > "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" is probably like lying to the customers - if > > something has been changed on the CD so that it cannot simply be copied, I > > guess the red book standard must have been violated. And although I don't > > currently have any information about copy protected audio CDs (I should > > also read about that topic), I wouldn't be amazed if at least some people > > have problems playing these discs in their "normal" CD players... > > You should ask the EFF if it will support you filing a > lawsuit under the "truth in advertising" laws. As a matter of fact, Philips (the inventors of the CD) did speak out it, and it's mentioned on the front page of the EFF. http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020503_eff_thanks_philips.html -- Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 12:51:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95BAB37B404 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3322 invoked by uid 100); 16 May 2002 19:51:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15588.3497.722035.755335@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:51:05 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <20020516213942.A92810@lpt.ens.fr> References: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516210154.L79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15588.2033.334082.580672@guru.mired.org> <20020516213942.A92810@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020516213942.A92810@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Mike Meyer said on May 16, 2002 at 14:26:41: > From > http://www.loc.gov/copyright/legislation/dmca.pdf (page 3-4) > > Section 1201 divides technological measures into two categories: > measures that prevent unauthorized *access* to a copyrighted work and > measures that prevent unauthorized *copying* of a copyrighted work. > Making or selling devices or services that are used to circumvent > either category of technological measure is prohibited in certain > circumstances, described below. As to the act of circumvention in > itself, the provision prohibits circumventing the first of the > technological measures, but not the second. > > Goes on to say that "fair use" may sometimes require unauthorized > copying but never unauthorized access. Both DeCSS and Elcomsoft were > about access. Interesting. I missed that last bit about the act the first time I read it. Note that this doesn't cover *owning* any of the devices, just using them to "access" a DVD. If this is the part used in the DeCSS and Elcomsoft cases, then it's the distribution. So you're right that you can't legally play a DVD using FreeBSD. However, you can make a copy to another DVD legally, and then play *that*. To strange. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 13: 6:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E88237B40B for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D497F3FC9C; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:06:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:06:16 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:24:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:24:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: Hi, > Bad style and practices were therefore enshrined; and none dare > criticize them. In fact, we see echos of this most strongly in > console based programs... like the FreeBSD installer. Terry, you've just found a way of revenue for the FreeBSD project. 1) Give the OS away 2) Remove *all* man pages and online documentation 3) Make the system horrendously obfuscated 4) Become rich by selling FreeBSD manuals at $100 a pop :-) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE85BE4nLctrNyFFPERAv02AKC1j6Tj2zhh7UwoenNFmFUETxfLGACgpC1a ibNrOnCUEF5gW04LPPq41nM= =M/q1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 13: 8:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4864037B406 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F2BA53FC9C; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:08:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:08:29 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Doug White Cc: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) Message-ID: <20020516220829.B51305@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Doug White , Terry Lambert , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CE3FA7D.9743E0E@mindspring.com> <20020516123131.U52717-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jho1yZJdad60DJr+" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020516123131.U52717-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu>; from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:32:19PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --jho1yZJdad60DJr+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:32:19PM -0700, Doug White wrote: Hi, > Too late -- many palm users complain that their handwriting slowly > degrades after using grafitti. It screwed up my writing for a while. Interesting, you mean you end up writing /\ instead of A? :) Now, seriously, what have you noticed? In exactly which sense do you see a degrdation? I've been using Palm devices (and I mean daily use) since '99 and never noticed anything, but perhaps my handwriting is pretty crap so there's no much to degrade :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --jho1yZJdad60DJr+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE85BG9nLctrNyFFPERAh28AJ9t+dXESGV9qCtXB3nls10xvjPj/QCffpoM zU6fwF7PWppgjCur+GaUCCU= =m0nT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jho1yZJdad60DJr+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 13:37:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F1A37B407 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-329.wobline.de [212.68.71.50]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4GKav524199; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:36:57 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GKato2037021; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:36:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GKbWIZ011897; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:37:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:37:32 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516223732.A11860@daemon.tisys.org> References: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:33:37PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 10:33PM up 13:51, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:33:37PM -0700, Terry Lambert stood up and spoke: > > CDs, they are no longer really red-book compliant. As such, putting the > > "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" is probably like lying to the customers - if > > something has been changed on the CD so that it cannot simply be copied, I > > guess the red book standard must have been violated. And although I don't > > currently have any information about copy protected audio CDs (I should > > also read about that topic), I wouldn't be amazed if at least some people > > have problems playing these discs in their "normal" CD players... > > You should ask the EFF if it will support you filing a > lawsuit under the "truth in advertising" laws. This ain't no advertising! If I buy a CD player that claims to play media labelled "Compact Disc - Digital Audio", then I may very well assume that all such labelled media will be playable in my player. Otherwise, we're entering an area where standards no longer have any value... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 13:41: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C56237B40A for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-329.wobline.de [212.68.71.50]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4GKew524610; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:40:58 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4GKevo2037027; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:40:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4GKfYdG011908; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:41:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:41:34 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020516224134.B11860@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:24:09PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 10:33PM up 13:51, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:24:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert stood up and spoke: > > Bob is an interesting fellow; he is often credited with having > invented "shareware". As an unrelated side note, I remember reading an interview with a programmer in some 80's computer magazine. When he was asked the question: "Is your program shareware?" he replied: "No, it's real software.". Hmm, I somehow found this funny... ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 16: 1:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0779137B406 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0005.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.5] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178UF6-0005lb-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:01:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE43A04.AC0B1F86@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:00:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com> <20020516223732.A11860@daemon.tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > > You should ask the EFF if it will support you filing a > > lawsuit under the "truth in advertising" laws. > > This ain't no advertising! If I buy a CD player that claims to play media > labelled "Compact Disc - Digital Audio", then I may very well assume that > all such labelled media will be playable in my player. Otherwise, we're > entering an area where standards no longer have any value... If it refers to "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" on the cover, and the media inside is not Red Book compliant, then the media inside does not contain what the label says it contains, and they are guilty of false advertising. Bring a suit: they will be fined. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 16: 2:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B0037B40A for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4GN1mT23308; Fri, 17 May 2002 01:01:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <15586.61471.456290.764885@guru.mired.org> <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:00:31 +0200 To: Nils Holland , Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:15 PM +0200 2002/05/16, Nils Holland wrote: > Well, I guess by the way the copy protection must be implemented on these > CDs, they are no longer really red-book compliant. As such, putting the > "Compact Disc - Digital Audio" is probably like lying to the customers - Right, which is why Philips (the owner of the CD trademark) is refusing to allow companies that implement certain copy-protection schemes to call them "CDs" or "Compact Discs". -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 16 16:14: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27A537B404 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0005.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.5] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178URZ-0006qh-00; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:13:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:13:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > > Bad style and practices were therefore enshrined; and none dare > > criticize them. In fact, we see echos of this most strongly in > > console based programs... like the FreeBSD installer. > > Terry, you've just found a way of revenue for the FreeBSD project. > > 1) Give the OS away > 2) Remove *all* man pages and online documentation > 3) Make the system horrendously obfuscated > 4) Become rich by selling FreeBSD manuals at $100 a pop :-) A) #1 already happens B) #2 is defacto done; compare the info and man pages for gcc or gld, some day C) #3 is defacto done D) #4 Doesn't work in the presence of a monopolist with a competing product who doesn't pull the same pig-trick The proof for (D) is that Word Perfect owned the Word Processing market at one point in time, but then ended up losing it when they tried to turn support into a profit center. They did that, rather than fixing the product so that it didn't generally require as much support (e.g. putting "Help" on "F4" was a really stupid human factors decision). I understand that they were trying to exercise the philosophy of "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade"; but those weren't lemons, they were dog-droppings, and you'd think someone would have realized that before they decided to build a huge bottling plant... Kind of gets us back to the original rant, which really comes down to the failure of stupid business models... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 2:58:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D04537B403 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 02:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4H9vvH05587 ; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:57:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA32170 ; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:57:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:57:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nils Holland , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020517115749.B31350@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020515211922.J1282@darkstar.gte.net> <3CE34A8B.7D999E2C@mindspring.com> <20020516091031.A2259@daemon.tisys.org> <15587.56669.382241.766052@guru.mired.org> <20020516192546.B8944@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516193049.G79514@lpt.ens.fr> <15587.65524.899611.798267@guru.mired.org> <20020516211542.A10910@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40991.D7BF4A2B@mindspring.com> <20020516214132.B92810@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020516214132.B92810@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 09:41:32PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on May 16, 2002 at 21:41:32: > Terry Lambert said on May 16, 2002 at 12:33:37: [audio CDs] > > You should ask the EFF if it will support you filing a > > lawsuit under the "truth in advertising" laws. > > As a matter of fact, Philips (the inventors of the CD) did speak out > it, and it's mentioned on the front page of the EFF. > > http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020503_eff_thanks_philips.html Sorry, wrong link. What I had in mind was http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020206_eff_philips_alert.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 6: 0:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6241737B400 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 06:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 178hLF-000HZ0-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 14:00:17 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g4HD0Gj97794 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 May 2002 14:00:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:00:16 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD core team questions Message-ID: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I have a question or two about the current core election. A few of the remarks made by the candidates, such as 'the project is broken' sound a bit disconcerting. I am sure there are and always will be problems with getting a large number of volunteers to work in a coherent, civil manner, while keeping the technology and stability of the OS at proper priority. However, maybe I have missed a lot of news, but is the project in *that* bad of shape that we can say or even imply that it is 'broken'? Also, I don't want to pick on the candidate who made the remark, because several other comments say about the same thing. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 8: 0:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7692137B405 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 08:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g4HEx4b5046418; Fri, 17 May 2002 10:59:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 10:59:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions In-Reply-To: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 May 2002, j mckitrick wrote: > I have a question or two about the current core election. A few of the > remarks made by the candidates, such as 'the project is broken' sound a > bit disconcerting. I am sure there are and always will be problems with > getting a large number of volunteers to work in a coherent, civil > manner, while keeping the technology and stability of the OS at proper > priority. However, maybe I have missed a lot of news, but is the > project in *that* bad of shape that we can say or even imply that it is > 'broken'? > > Also, I don't want to pick on the candidate who made the remark, because > several other comments say about the same thing. > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. As with any large project involving large numbers of people, there is some inevitable personal friction and disagreement. To assert that the project is fundamentally broken displays a lack of understanding of the accomplishments of the project over the last few years, and the state of the project today. I think it could be successfully argued that there are some improvements that could be made to the structure and procedures of the project to help with some of the perceived problems, and that's hopefully what the candidates are referring to. Most of the comments I've seen from candidates have centered on addressing specific problems. For example, the need to more rapidly build concensus following conflict on a technical issue, or how to address the issue delegation from the core team to other entities. As someone currently on the core team, I can only point out that the path here is relatively clear, because we have some good (and, of course, some less good) examples of effective delegation and conflict resolution. FWIW, I think it's also worth observing that any election will include inevitable rhetoric. As someone interested in the real work (that is to say, daily operation of the project and accomplishing the technical goals of the project), it's necessary to look beyond that rhetoric. :-) Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 10: 5:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (mail.acns.ab.ca [142.179.151.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1220837B407; Fri, 17 May 2002 10:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4HH3klo053137; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:03:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g4HH3jaA009671; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:03:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g4HH3j6j009670; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:03:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:03:45 -0600 From: Chad David To: Robert Watson Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions Message-ID: <20020517110345.A9597@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Watson , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:59:03AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, j mckitrick wrote: > > > I have a question or two about the current core election. A few of the > > remarks made by the candidates, such as 'the project is broken' sound a > > bit disconcerting. I am sure there are and always will be problems with > > getting a large number of volunteers to work in a coherent, civil > > manner, while keeping the technology and stability of the OS at proper > > priority. However, maybe I have missed a lot of news, but is the > > project in *that* bad of shape that we can say or even imply that it is > > 'broken'? > > > > Also, I don't want to pick on the candidate who made the remark, because > > several other comments say about the same thing. > > > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. > > As with any large project involving large numbers of people, there is some > inevitable personal friction and disagreement. To assert that the project > is fundamentally broken displays a lack of understanding of the > accomplishments of the project over the last few years, and the state of > the project today. I think it could be successfully argued that there are Exactly! This project is not failing, it is booming. All you have to do is look at the doc project, re, the DARPA work, platform support, etc. etc. to see that these are truly exciting times to be involved with FreeBSD. How many drunken brawls do they have in ghost towns? Individuals who cannot see the forest for the trees really do need to take a few steps back an reevaluate their definition of success. -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year. - Johnathan Swift To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 12:32:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.acecape.com (mail.acedsl.com [66.114.74.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A5F37B40D for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4HJWsff027966 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 15:32:55 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:34:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Why only commiters can vote for core? Message-ID: <20020517153223.G21185-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was wondering. What is the point of only allowing commiters to vote? Couldn't we create a FreeBSD Voting database or some other way to uniquely identify individuals? We could make a FreeBSD electoral college. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 12:55: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4B837B40C for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0392.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.137] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178no1-0001eS-00; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:54:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE55FD4.D21FB350@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:53:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions References: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > I have a question or two about the current core election. A few of the > remarks made by the candidates, such as 'the project is broken' sound a > bit disconcerting. I am sure there are and always will be problems with > getting a large number of volunteers to work in a coherent, civil > manner, while keeping the technology and stability of the OS at proper > priority. However, maybe I have missed a lot of news, but is the > project in *that* bad of shape that we can say or even imply that it is > 'broken'? This is probably not an appropriate forum for this discussion. -committers is a closed list which is not officially archived; while I may personally think that this is a bad thing, since it means that public history is lost, there is a reason that such discussions are taking place on that list, and not on generally archived lists. I rather expect that the people who say such things on the -committers list would not do so in a more public forum; simple ettiquite dictates that you not reflect their remarks there. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 12:59: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F73D37B400 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4HJx1i07566; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Miguel Mendez Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) In-Reply-To: <20020516220829.B51305@energyhq.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 May 2002, Miguel Mendez wrote: > Interesting, you mean you end up writing /\ instead of A? :) Now, > seriously, what have you noticed? In exactly which sense do you see a > degrdation? I've been using Palm devices (and I mean daily use) since > '99 and never noticed anything, but perhaps my handwriting is pretty > crap so there's no much to degrade :) There were a few news articles that came out at the time about execs taking handwriting classes since their writing had degraded to the point noone else could read it, not even themselves ;) I used the grafitti-ish thing in WinCE for a week while in school and it really broke my writing. Stopped and a month later it was back to normal. Let the psychologist theories loose :) Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 13: 9:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D672E37B403 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21638 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 20:09:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 17 May 2002 20:09:19 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4HK9EF76933; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:09:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3CE55FD4.D21FB350@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:09:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, j mckitrick Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-May-2002 Terry Lambert wrote: > -committers is a closed list which is not officially archived; > while I may personally think that this is a bad thing, since it > means that public history is lost, there is a reason that such > discussions are taking place on that list, and not on generally > archived lists. It is archived, but the archive is not publically available. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 13:30:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED65A37B400 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0392.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.137] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178oLG-0000M4-00; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:28:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE567E1.7DFCCDF9@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:28:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why only commiters can vote for core? References: <20020517153223.G21185-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > I was wondering. What is the point of only allowing commiters to vote? > Couldn't we create a FreeBSD Voting database or some other way to uniquely > identify individuals? > > We could make a FreeBSD electoral college. :-) And with this can of worms, we see one reason why the process occurs on a closed list. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 13:31:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B47437B400; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0392.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.137] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178oNo-0003ua-00; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:31:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE5687F.43613AD1@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:30:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, j mckitrick Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > On 17-May-2002 Terry Lambert wrote: > > -committers is a closed list which is not officially archived; > > while I may personally think that this is a bad thing, since it > > means that public history is lost, there is a reason that such > > discussions are taking place on that list, and not on generally > > archived lists. > > It is archived, but the archive is not publically available. I know. ...officially archived... ...public history... ...generally archived lists.... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 13:58: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92CD37B401 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.techno.pagans (spark.techno.pagans [4.61.202.145]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1129471DC; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by spark.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C4726C17; Fri, 17 May 2002 13:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3CE56ED0.1532D123@pantherdragon.org> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:57:52 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <042001c1fc8c$f5922060$3dec910c@daleco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > From: "Nils Holland" > > (DANGER: This is long and has not much to do with FreeBSD (that's why I > > posted it to -chat). If you're busy, skip this message now. If not, get > > yourself a cup of coffee and read on ;-) > > > 7up will do, I hope. Why assault my body with all that caffeine? Because the nervous tremor will give you the jitter-dodge ability for Quake[2|3], highly effective. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 14:38: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BF57337B403 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 14:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 79942 invoked by uid 100); 17 May 2002 21:37:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15589.30774.602503.261606@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:37:58 -0500 To: Doug White Cc: Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) In-Reply-To: <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> References: <20020516220829.B51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu>, Doug White typed: > I used the grafitti-ish thing in WinCE for a week while in school and it > really broke my writing. Stopped and a month later it was back to normal. I went through the same thing - only I didn't stop using the Palm. When I started to learn graffitti, my handwriting got worse. When I realized I that I was doing it, I stopped shortly afterwards, and my handwriting returned to it's barely legible norm. > Let the psychologist theories loose :) I think you have to classify graffitti as "not handwriting", and until you do that, your handwriting is going to mimic graffitti. Some people apparently start out that way, and never suffer the problem. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 14:47:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3A437B405 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 14:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4HLlcK02688; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:47:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4HLlcF10005; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:47:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from inside.centtech.com (inside3 [10.177.173.94]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4HLlZ609993; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:47:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by inside.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4HLlZ112509; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:47:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3CE57A9D.1050803@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:48:13 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) References: <20020516220829.B51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <15589.30774.602503.261606@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: >I think you have to classify graffitti as "not handwriting", and until >you do that, your handwriting is going to mimic graffitti. Some people >apparently start out that way, and never suffer the problem. > That's what I did, since I had been hearing about so many people with the converted handwriting. Although, for me, it would have been an improvement in my handwriting. My writing normally looks like hiroglyphics (sp?).. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 14:58:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts6m-pool0-112.gti.net [208.216.115.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACF637B405 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 14:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HM7OF77877; Fri, 17 May 2002 18:07:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 65.205.87.208 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Fri, 17 May 2002 18:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3881.65.205.87.208.1021673246.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 18:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) From: "Mark Yeck" To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu In-Reply-To: <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> References: <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug wrote: > There were a few news articles that came out at the time about execs > taking handwriting classes since their writing had degraded to the > point noone else could read it, not even themselves ;) > > I used the grafitti-ish thing in WinCE for a week while in school and > it really broke my writing. Stopped and a month later it was back to > normal. Let the psychologist theories loose :) Strange. My handwriting actually improved when I started using Graffiti. I'm much better at interpreting my own illegible scrawl than the Palm is, so i actually had to pay attention to what I was doing. When I got more comfortable with Graffiti my handwriting degraded back to the mess that it started as. -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 15: 4:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244F037B40E for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 15:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a187.otenet.gr [212.205.215.187]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4HM4ZQN012463 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:04:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4HGaO6m009838 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:36:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4HGaO2C009837; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:36:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:36:24 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-16 16:13, Terry Lambert wrote: > Miguel Mendez wrote: > > > > Terry, you've just found a way of revenue for the FreeBSD project. > > > > 1) Give the OS away > A) #1 already happens > > 2) Remove *all* man pages and online documentation > > B) #2 is defacto done; compare the info and man pages for gcc > or gld, some day But the info pages can be installed for both programs, as part of the system installation. What was your point again? > > 3) Make the system horrendously obfuscated > C) #3 is defacto done As a documentation writer, I am terribly offended :P This also seems like you're suggesting that the FreeBSD developers do their best to obfuscate the programs and code they write. In a system like FreeBSD that tries to follow standards like SUSv3 or similar, this is not possible and not wanted. I think you're doing harm to FreeBSD in this. Harm that is not needed, and certainly not deserved by all the people who are trying to make FreeBSD an operating system and environment easier to us :-/ > > 4) Become rich by selling FreeBSD manuals at $100 a pop :-) > > D) #4 Doesn't work in the presence of a monopolist with a > competing product who doesn't pull the same pig-trick So making a profit out of FreeBSD by using those same ``dirty tricks'' mentioned above, can not be done. You're effectively stating that this is already done in B) and then later argue that it can't be done. Now I'm thoroughly confused. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 15:14: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF9C37B411 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 15:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4HMDpH91908 ; Sat, 18 May 2002 00:13:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id AAA70778 ; Sat, 18 May 2002 00:13:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 00:13:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: Doug White , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grafitti (was Re: The road ahead?) Message-ID: <20020518001351.A70639@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , Doug White , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020516220829.B51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <15589.30774.602503.261606@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15589.30774.602503.261606@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1022103479.055953@mired.org on Fri, May 17, 2002 at 04:37:58PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on May 17, 2002 at 16:37:58: > In <20020517125736.U6300-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu>, Doug White typed: > > I used the grafitti-ish thing in WinCE for a week while in school and it > > really broke my writing. Stopped and a month later it was back to normal. > > I went through the same thing - only I didn't stop using the > Palm. When I started to learn graffitti, my handwriting got > worse. When I realized I that I was doing it, I stopped shortly > afterwards, and my handwriting returned to it's barely legible norm. Out of curiosity, does it also have an effect on spellings? I see two different versions of the word above, both wrong -- it's "graffiti." :) Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 16: 7:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server2.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A0E37B40C for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server2.highperformance.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4HN717d027441 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:07:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-X-Sender: jcw@server2.highperformance.net To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Windows NFS Client Message-ID: <20020517160403.R27022-100000@server2.highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have any recommendations on a good NFS client for Windows? I have tried a bunch of demos and they all seemed half baked. My employer uses Hummingbird which seems pretty nice. It's also expensive. Later, Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 16:17: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE9D37B405 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4HNGQU05035; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:16:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Windows NFS Client In-Reply-To: <20020517160403.R27022-100000@server2.highperformance.net> Message-ID: <20020517161433.A80765-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 May 2002, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations on a good NFS client for Windows? nothing other than mapping a drive to a samba server. i've never seen any that were worthwhile, or more trouble than they were worth. > I have tried a bunch of demos and they all seemed half baked. My > employer uses Hummingbird which seems pretty nice. It's also expensive. most software for windows is expensive. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 16:19:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBEE37B403 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0373.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.118] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178qzL-0004e3-00; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:18:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:17:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > 2) Remove *all* man pages and online documentation > > > > B) #2 is defacto done; compare the info and man pages for gcc > > or gld, some day > > But the info pages can be installed for both programs, as part of the > system installation. What was your point again? Humans obtain information by selecting a Schelling point, and attempting to obtain information there. Despite the attempts by the GNU crowds, the "info" format is not the preemminent Schelling point for UNIX systems, man pages are. Therefore, any documentation which does not exist in the man pages defacto does not exist. If you want confirmation, I suggest you search for "Schelling" in your favorite search engine. While you are at it, ask yourself why you went to that search engine, instead of any one of dozens of others: why does that search engine itself represent a Schelling point to you? How is it that you knew to go there, instead of somewhere else? If you can answer these questions, you will be more than half the way to realizing why, in the scheme of the Internet "bubble", almost all of the "portal plays" have failed to result in the traditional "brand loyalty" that marketers of traditional products rely upon. Or to put it another way: you will know why people's loyalty won't stay bought. I'll give you a hint: there is a disproportion between barriers to entry and barriers to exit on intangibles which is not there with tangible consumables, which tend to keep your "loyalty" by remaining there until they are "used up". Now compare this with "my default home page". > > > 3) Make the system horrendously obfuscated > > C) #3 is defacto done > > As a documentation writer, I am terribly offended :P > > This also seems like you're suggesting that the FreeBSD developers do > their best to obfuscate the programs and code they write. In a system > like FreeBSD that tries to follow standards like SUSv3 or similar, > this is not possible and not wanted. I think you're doing harm to > FreeBSD in this. Harm that is not needed, and certainly not deserved > by all the people who are trying to make FreeBSD an operating system > and environment easier to us :-/ As a user, I'm terribly offended that any documentation at all is required to use any software in the first place. ;P. The standards which are conformed to were designed within the same principles framework that resulted in software which was hard to use without documentation in the first place. The epitome of good technology is the device with but a single button on it, which doesn't look fearfully dangerous to press, and which is a "do what I wanted done" button. A bad example from personal experience was the Whistle InterJet; it had a lot of buttons on the front, which not only raised the overall cost, but implied configuration and exposed complexity (there was plenty of both, in fact). People bought InterJets to connect their small businesses to the Internet. They were less painful than the precursor, but they could hardly be said to represent an epitome of good technology. A much better paradigm would have been a single round green button on the front, wich connected your small office to the Internet. As the engineers who developed and invented the InterJet, we weren't allowed to build the product that people needed. Instead, we had a lot of "input" from people who had already decided that connecting a small office to the Internet was a complex task, and that the product was there to serve a user interface -- not a customer need -- and that the purpose of the user interface was to manage complexity, using abstract representational geometries that were somehow superiour, having passed through a PhD who didn't think like an "uneducated end user" in the first place. So what would be the epitome of design for such a device? 1) If I press the green button, it connects my office to the Internet. 2) If I hold the green button down long enough, the machine shuts off. In other words, the "big green button" is an ATX power switch. There are a couple of intermediate technical obstacles, but they are not completely unscalable. Most of them have to do with a steadfast refusal to manage the "link.local" problem, the DHCP server grab that Microsoft staged, and the lack of support for service location in Microsoft Operating systems causing an unnecessarily increased complication for hardware configuration. But of course, actually *fixing* problems, instead of coming up with some Rube Goldbergian scheme for working around them, does not present a barrier to entry to competitors, does it? And for some reason, we don't trust ourselves to step out in front in the first place -- *and then be able to stay out in front of the parade*. There's actually a German company building an InterJet-like device. You can buy one today, off the shelf, from Fry's electronics, for around US$400. It has a keypad, like the InterJet, and it has an LCD panel (at the bottom, rather than the top). Actually, I would call such devices in a small business "file cabinet top" boxes: they fill the ecological niche in a small business that in a home would be filled by set-top boxes. So the location of the LCD screen on the bottom of the front panel rather than the top is a good design decision -- as far as it does. But the German device embodies the same assumptions which led to IBM eventually shutting down the IBM GSB Division (the former Whistle Communications), when they didn't get out of it what they expected to get out of it, when they bought it. It makes the assumptions that an LCD panel is necessary at all, and that a keypad is necessary at all, because, well, that's the assumption made in the design of the InterJet, and they aren't really breaking new ground, so much as they are copying a design. To be fair, IBM's expectations were unreasonable to start with, and those expectations were set by people wanting an exit for money, rather than by people who wanted to convey a proper sense of the product: they lacked faith, and so could not convey faith to the IBM people. IBM thought they were buying a human factors design which could succeed where their own designs had not, in a market that IBM wanted to capitalize. If Whistle hadn't tried to make the sale on human factors, the outcome could have been much more positive. IBM's own "dirty little secrets" with regard to business practices didn't help, and the overall result was a cascade failure. No need to go into them now. > > > 4) Become rich by selling FreeBSD manuals at $100 a pop :-) > > > > D) #4 Doesn't work in the presence of a monopolist with a > > competing product who doesn't pull the same pig-trick > > So making a profit out of FreeBSD by using those same ``dirty tricks'' > mentioned above, can not be done. You're effectively stating that this > is already done in B) and then later argue that it can't be done. > > Now I'm thoroughly confused. FreeBSD is not a first mover. Such a strategy will work, if you have first mover advantage. FreeBSD has no such advantage. Note that a "first mover" is not necessarily the same as "first to market". This is a common assumption, but it is wrong. The Microsoft strategy, and, in general, the Japanese corporate consumer electronics strategy are both incredibly successful, and they are built on the foundation of being "first to be second" for any given market. These companies rarely innovate, which is why slashdot and other technical forums tend to find Microsoft's protestations that they would be "unable to innovate in the future" so laughable. In fact, we can read Microsoft's successes and failures on the basis of projects which do and do not fit this philosophy. Since its beginning, Microsoft has failed in every "first to market" case, and succeeded in *almost* every "first to be second" case. "Money", "Word", "Excel", "Windows", "DOS", ...all but a few of their products, in fact, follow this model closely. The notable exceptions (like the Microsoft Mouse) are actually supporting products, more than they are products in their own right: they are infrastructure. Novell did the same thing when they bought a network card manufacturer, and dropped the hardware prices low enough that network cards hit the point where they became commodities, and it was possible for them to be used as "paving material" in support of other products, which assumed LAN connectivity for machines within a business: Novell's real target market. The FreeBSD approach fails to provide for a "Chasm Crossing Strategy", as Geoffrey Moore (formerly of Regis McKenna, now of the Chasm Group) would say. It has OK appeal to early adopters (classic technophiles like it -- this is "geek appeal"), but it has yet to have any real value in the mainstream. While "Yahoo" is widely regarded as a success story for FreeBSD, it's hardly the "reference account" that can be used to leverage "sales" (for Free software, this is really a measure of market penetration and mindshare, not revenue) in other market segments or categories. Yahoo is not "GM" or "American Express" or "Delta Airlines", etc.. The issue is one of market segmentation, and then choice of the correct segment in which to compete, such that you don't face the barriers you will face if you attempt to shotgun all over the map. FreeBSD has failed to service a market segment in which it has an advantage like this -- a marget segment in which it is not up against monopolistic forces. Instead, it shotguns, and tries to be all things to all people, or, worse, declares that any market in which it has failed to arrive at a success strategy is "not our target market" (the reductio ad absurdum of that argument is that, eventually, your "target" is pared down to one fourteen year old "Barbie" owner in Des Moines, Iowa). Right now, the initial barrier to entry is installation. Windows comes pre-installed on much of today's computer hardware. For that computer hardware which is being put to applications where Windows is ill-suited, FreeBSD is not built to solve the problems in that problem domain, out of the box. In addition, the installation process is cumbersome, and has not been abstracted sufficiently. There is no single "big green button" for any particular segment which FreeBSD "hopes to serve". And there is no direction for that "hope". Linux is prety much in the same boat; it has a public goal ("Destroy Microsoft"), which a lot of jaded geeks can get behind, but it has not arrived. It, too, is still on the "early adopter" side of the "chasm" in the technology adoption lifecycle. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 16:21:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99ED237B40A for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0373.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.118] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178r1v-0007Ya-00; Fri, 17 May 2002 16:21:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE59032.4529716B@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:20:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Windows NFS Client References: <20020517160403.R27022-100000@server2.highperformance.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations on a good NFS client for Windows? > > I have tried a bunch of demos and they all seemed half baked. My > employer uses Hummingbird which seems pretty nice. It's also expensive. There is a port of the FreeBSD NFSv2 (and maybe v3) client to the Windows IFSMgr. It was announced between 9-11 months ago. You should check the freebsd-fs archives, for details. Apparently, it's supposed to be pretty good, but then again, that was according to the people who did the work, so they are probably a bit biased. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 17:22:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E10437B403 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 17:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4I0KXH16667; Sat, 18 May 2002 02:20:34 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 02:19:46 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:17 PM -0700 2002/05/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > A bad example from personal experience was the Whistle InterJet; > it had a lot of buttons on the front, which not only raised the > overall cost, but implied configuration and exposed complexity > (there was plenty of both, in fact). I desperately wanted an InterJet. Problem was that I couldn't find a place where I could buy one, and I desperately did *not* want a Qube. > People bought InterJets to connect their small businesses to the > Internet. They were less painful than the precursor, but they > could hardly be said to represent an epitome of good technology. I wanted to buy one as the ideal home mini-server -- running FreeBSD. > A much better paradigm would have been a single round green > button on the front, wich connected your small office to the > Internet. Naw, you want something that just automatically works, and doesn't require any buttons. > There's actually a German company building an InterJet-like > device. You can buy one today, off the shelf, from Fry's > electronics, for around US$400. It has a keypad, like the > InterJet, and it has an LCD panel (at the bottom, rather than > the top). Really? Can you give me the name of the company? I might be able to find a place over here where I can buy them locally. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 17:30:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE0437B406 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 17:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 178s7H-0006b9-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:30:35 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g4I0UUp03214; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:30:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:30:29 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions Message-ID: <20020518013029.A3162@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3CE55FD4.D21FB350@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE55FD4.D21FB350@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:53:56PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | This is probably not an appropriate forum for this discussion. I apologize. | I rather expect that the people who say such things on the | -committers list would not do so in a more public forum; simple | ettiquite dictates that you not reflect their remarks there. I didn't see it on -committers, but via the link on daemonnews. It has since been removed. I didn't realize it wasn't supposed to be public, and I forgot the election is only for committers. I'll just go finish my beer now, and drink to the future of FreeBSD. :-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 19: 3:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EAF37B400 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0462.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.207] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178tYX-0007lT-00; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:02:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:02:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:17 PM -0700 2002/05/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > > A bad example from personal experience was the Whistle InterJet; > > it had a lot of buttons on the front, which not only raised the > > overall cost, but implied configuration and exposed complexity > > (there was plenty of both, in fact). > > I desperately wanted an InterJet. Problem was that I couldn't > find a place where I could buy one, and I desperately did *not* want > a Qube. That was really a marketing issue (pre-IBM) and a license and intellectual property issue (post-IBM), wrapped up in a little bit of "subscription vs. sales" revenue slant (also post-IBM). Archie and Julian can both speak a long time on the inability for people to actually buy the hardware directly (pre-IBM). In theory, it was to avoid undersutting dealer networks, which was based on so many assumptions that I could never refute all of them. 8-(. > > People bought InterJets to connect their small businesses to the > > Internet. They were less painful than the precursor, but they > > could hardly be said to represent an epitome of good technology. > > I wanted to buy one as the ideal home mini-server -- running FreeBSD. Julian and Archie both use theirs this way to this day, I think. So does Jim Li, one of the original Whistle founders, and a number of other people. > > A much better paradigm would have been a single round green > > button on the front, wich connected your small office to the > > Internet. > > Naw, you want something that just automatically works, and > doesn't require any buttons. You always require a button to turn the thing on. There's really no choice. Overloading the same button to turn it off is just convenience -- you'd need a button to turn things off, even if you used the availability of electricity to turn the thing on, since even if engagement is automatic, you need to explicitly disengage. My favorite example is the Western European road-side-assistance kiosks: One big yellow button that meant "fullfill your purpose". It was so compelling at the San Francisco Museum Of Modern Art, Industrial Design exhibit, that I was almost thrown out because I was so captivated by the artifact itself, I totally ignored the below knee level "do not touch" sign, and went an pressed the button. > > There's actually a German company building an InterJet-like > > device. You can buy one today, off the shelf, from Fry's > > electronics, for around US$400. It has a keypad, like the > > InterJet, and it has an LCD panel (at the bottom, rather than > > the top). > > Really? Can you give me the name of the company? I might be > able to find a place over here where I can buy them locally. Celestix. http://www.zdnet.com/supercenter/stories/review/0,12070,478772,00.html The thing runs Linux, by default. For U.S. people, you can buy them at Fry's. But as I said before: I think they missed the boat with the design, since they are just copying the InterJet (IMO), and the InterJet missed the boat, too. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 22:42:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yieau-chiea.com (61-216-235-244.HINET-IP.hinet.net [61.216.235.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 62FCB37B408 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 22:42:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "yieau chiea" To: Subject: Low Cost High Quality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 14:01:25 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020518054212.62FCB37B408@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear Sir/Madam, We are specialized manufacturer of drilling tapping and boring machines for more than 20 years. 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Tel: 886-4-8858610 Fax: 886-4-8810924 E-mail: yieauchiea@yieau-chiea.com Best Regards, Jason Lin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 17 23:46:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7741A37B407 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 23:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6892 invoked by uid 100); 18 May 2002 06:45:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:45:59 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In , Brad Knowles typed: > At 4:17 PM -0700 2002/05/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > > A much better paradigm would have been a single round green > > button on the front, wich connected your small office to the > > Internet. > Naw, you want something that just automatically works, and > doesn't require any buttons. I almost replied to Terry pointing out that the Linksys cable/dsl router has no buttons. You shut off all your gear, plug the modem into the WAN side, plug your computers into the LAN side, and then turn on the modem, router and systems in order. If you've got typical Windows installs, you're done. If you need something that requires a static IP address - like an NFS server - you have to configure it. If your systems were doing dialup internet, you'll have to run the internet wizard on them. If you want to run web servers and the like, you have to configure it yet more. But those options are for geeks. For a small all-MS shop that outsources it's servers, it's a near-perfect solution - unless you want to run netmeeting including someone not on the LAN. I'm waiting for them to announce a firmware upgrade running an OH323 gatekeeper, but expect it to be a new product. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 1:37:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D686437B40A for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0026.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.26] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 178zht-0003HE-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:36:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:36:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Brad Knowles , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > In , Brad Knowles typed: > > At 4:17 PM -0700 2002/05/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > A much better paradigm would have been a single round green > > > button on the front, wich connected your small office to the > > > Internet. > > Naw, you want something that just automatically works, and > > doesn't require any buttons. > > I almost replied to Terry pointing out that the Linksys cable/dsl > router has no buttons. You shut off all your gear, plug the modem into > the WAN side, plug your computers into the LAN side, and then turn on > the modem, router and systems in order. If you've got typical Windows > installs, you're done. You just turn it on? With a button? 8-) 8-). > If you need something that requires a static IP address - like an NFS > server - you have to configure it. If your systems were doing dialup > internet, you'll have to run the internet wizard on them. If you want > to run web servers and the like, you have to configure it yet more. The idea that there is a requirement for static addresses for servers is a common misconception. So is the idea that your gateway has to be at a specific location, etc.. If you ever have an opportunity to do so, set up "Microsoft Internet Connection Sharing" on a PC, and then sniff the wire with a FreeBSD box as you boot another Windows box onto the internal side of the network. The same is true for web servers, etc.. Pretty much, it can all be done without even having a DHCP server. > But those options are for geeks. For a small all-MS shop that > outsources it's servers, it's a near-perfect solution - unless you > want to run netmeeting including someone not on the LAN. I'm waiting > for them to announce a firmware upgrade running an OH323 gatekeeper, > but expect it to be a new product. That's actually a protocol design bug. Protocols that require application layer proxies have an intrinsically broken design (e.g. RealPlayer). These broken designs are usually intentional, in order to control the market. For example, you can only buy a caching server for Real from Real: The RTSP is documented well enough, and so is their firewall proxy code, but the QOS management protocol is tunneled, and is undocumented. It's required if you intend to build a server (which is where they make their money, when they aren't making it from encoding or transcoding), and it's required for a proxy, particularly one that fans out connections, and serves more of them than the server on the back end can. As far as I'm aware, only Network Appliance has spent the effort and money to reverse engineer the QOS protocol sufficiently to offer real products. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 1:38:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FD237B40D for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.254.205] (cerberus [192.168.254.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g4I8bgd71905 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:37:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE40852.EB497039@mindspring.com> References: <86D234B0-68FE-11D6-93D6-0003931BED80@shire.net> <3CE40852.EB497039@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:38:34 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:28 PM -0700 5/16/02, Terry Lambert wrote: >Apple has such a source license, and so they are grandfathered, >as long as they include some of the code on the machine (A/UX). Maybe so, but if they use that rationale, aren't they opening themselves up to paying a per-user fee for the use of the code in a binary distribution? -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 2: 3:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74C437B407 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 02:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0026.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.26] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17907t-0000Ea-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 02:03:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE618D0.77679884@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 02:03:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rich Morin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS X , FreeBSD, UNIX and kleenex References: <86D234B0-68FE-11D6-93D6-0003931BED80@shire.net> <3CE40852.EB497039@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rich Morin wrote: > At 12:28 PM -0700 5/16/02, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Apple has such a source license, and so they are grandfathered, > >as long as they include some of the code on the machine (A/UX). > > Maybe so, but if they use that rationale, aren't they opening > themselves up to paying a per-user fee for the use of the code > in a binary distribution? No. They bought it out before the royalties went up. A/UX is actually based on SVR3, nor SVR4. There are other issues which would end up making it a difficult case, and a P.R. nightmare for whoever bought the suit. Have you been following the "Windows/Lindows" case? It seems that it now hinges on whether or not "Windows" is even defensible out of common use (USPTO denied it in 1991, after 7 years). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 16:33:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B050637B419 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21734 invoked by uid 100); 18 May 2002 23:33:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 18:33:38 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? In-Reply-To: <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert typed: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > In , Brad Knowles typed: > > > At 4:17 PM -0700 2002/05/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > A much better paradigm would have been a single round green > > > > button on the front, wich connected your small office to the > > > > Internet. > > > Naw, you want something that just automatically works, and > > > doesn't require any buttons. > > > > I almost replied to Terry pointing out that the Linksys cable/dsl > > router has no buttons. You shut off all your gear, plug the modem into > > the WAN side, plug your computers into the LAN side, and then turn on > > the modem, router and systems in order. If you've got typical Windows > > installs, you're done. > You just turn it on? > With a button? > 8-) 8-). Nope - with a power cord. > > > If you need something that requires a static IP address - like an NFS > > server - you have to configure it. If your systems were doing dialup > > internet, you'll have to run the internet wizard on them. If you want > > to run web servers and the like, you have to configure it yet more. > The idea that there is a requirement for static addresses for servers > is a common misconception. So is the idea that your gateway has to > be at a specific location, etc.. Good point. If you control the DNS, the requirement for many such static IP addresses go away. The linksys doesn't do it's own DNS, though. I guess if all your external serves are on the magic box, you don't need to deal with nat, either. > > But those options are for geeks. For a small all-MS shop that > > outsources it's servers, it's a near-perfect solution - unless you > > want to run netmeeting including someone not on the LAN. I'm waiting > > for them to announce a firmware upgrade running an OH323 gatekeeper, > > but expect it to be a new product. > That's actually a protocol design bug. Protocols that require > application layer proxies have an intrinsically broken design > (e.g. RealPlayer). These broken designs are usually intentional, > in order to control the market. I don't think that's the case here. There's already an open source gatekeeper package for OH323. The reason I didn't write the first time was because I realized that Linksys has done just what Terry was saying FreeBSD has failed to do: They've identified a target market, and produced a box that that market can use as a true plug-n-play device. They've provided enough configuration that geeks in that market segment will probably be happy, but you don't *have* to do any configuration in the target market. I think the market is changing on them because of NetMetting and clones. The question is whether they will adapt to the changing conditions. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 16:51:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305D437B40B for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0271.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.16] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179Dz9-0003F6-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:51:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:51:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Brad Knowles , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > You just turn it on? > > With a button? > > 8-) 8-). > > Nope - with a power cord. Can't do a graceful shutdown without a button. I actually would be uncomfortable with something that didn't have an activation sequence of some kind that didn't include something that you normally don't do (plugging/unplugging is supposed to be limited to installation and deinstallation, not activation and deactivation). > > The idea that there is a requirement for static addresses for servers > > is a common misconception. So is the idea that your gateway has to > > be at a specific location, etc.. > > Good point. If you control the DNS, the requirement for many such > static IP addresses go away. The linksys doesn't do it's own DNS, > though. > > I guess if all your external serves are on the magic box, you don't > need to deal with nat, either. Actually, you don't have to do the DNS thing, if you can do the DNSUPDAT thing. So: o Find the gateway o Find your IP o Find the name server from the root o Reverse lookup your IP to get the domain name o Use the DNS information based on your role to configure yourself Role selection can be more difficult, but really, SLP can be used to find a "manage me" server. > > > But those options are for geeks. For a small all-MS shop that > > > outsources it's servers, it's a near-perfect solution - unless you > > > want to run netmeeting including someone not on the LAN. I'm waiting > > > for them to announce a firmware upgrade running an OH323 gatekeeper, > > > but expect it to be a new product. > > > > That's actually a protocol design bug. Protocols that require > > application layer proxies have an intrinsically broken design > > (e.g. RealPlayer). These broken designs are usually intentional, > > in order to control the market. > > I don't think that's the case here. There's already an open source > gatekeeper package for OH323. I'm a big fan of ZEROCONF. 8-). > The reason I didn't write the first time was because I realized that > Linksys has done just what Terry was saying FreeBSD has failed to do: > They've identified a target market, and produced a box that that > market can use as a true plug-n-play device. They've provided enough > configuration that geeks in that market segment will probably be > happy, but you don't *have* to do any configuration in the target > market. I think the market is changing on them because of NetMetting > and clones. The question is whether they will adapt to the changing > conditions. Yeah. This is what's called a "whole product". 8-). It means more than just the object itself... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 16:53:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D8437B40D for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b181.otenet.gr [212.205.244.189]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4INrFQJ013085; Sun, 19 May 2002 02:53:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4INrEIu005492; Sun, 19 May 2002 02:53:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4INrDTv005491; Sun, 19 May 2002 02:53:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:53:11 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020518235311.GA4581@hades.hell.gr> References: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-18 16:51, Terry Lambert wrote: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > You just turn it on? > > > With a button? > > > 8-) 8-). > > > > Nope - with a power cord. > > Can't do a graceful shutdown without a button. Journalling perhaps? :P -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 16:59:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AEC37B40B for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4INwlU21600; Sun, 19 May 2002 01:58:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:57:08 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:02 PM -0700 2002/05/17, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Naw, you want something that just automatically works, and >> doesn't require any buttons. > > You always require a button to turn the thing on. No, you don't. Just plug it in, and it works. That's the ideal. > There's really > no choice. Overloading the same button to turn it off is just > convenience -- you'd need a button to turn things off, even if you > used the availability of electricity to turn the thing on, since > even if engagement is automatic, you need to explicitly disengage. Again, I disagree. If you want to turn it off, you can use the software. If the software doesn't work, you can unplug it. > My favorite example is the Western European road-side-assistance > kiosks: One big yellow button that meant "fullfill your purpose". I've only seen those in the Netherlands, and even then only in some parts. And that's only because the device is already plugged in and ready to go. > Celestix. > > http://www.zdnet.com/supercenter/stories/review/0,12070,478772,00.html > > The thing runs Linux, by default. The device itself seems fine to me, but I want something that natively runs BSD. If I was to seriously look at buying a Celestix, then I might as well buy a Qube instead. > But as I said before: I think they missed the boat with the > design, since they are just copying the InterJet (IMO), and > the InterJet missed the boat, too. For other people, the interface may not be ideal. But for me, it would be good. My problem is that I want to buy a device like this, but that runs FreeBSD. I don't want to buy a machine and then try to retro-fit FreeBSD onto it, because it is likely that they have included some proprietary hardware (e.g., an LCD display) that is not supported by FreeBSD, and I may not be able to get it to work at all. If I'm going to be forced to go the retro-fit route anyway, then I might as well buy a Qube. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 17: 9: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B66937B40E for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0271.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.16] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179EFR-0001sk-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:08:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE6ECE0.C6A803B6@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:08:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> <20020518235311.GA4581@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-05-18 16:51, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > You just turn it on? > > > > With a button? > > > > 8-) 8-). > > > > > > Nope - with a power cord. > > > > Can't do a graceful shutdown without a button. > > Journalling perhaps? :P Cool, if you can get Windows to journal it's state before and after the discovery of a default gateway... 8^p. It's not about the device, it's about everything else: o Before the device is there o After the device is there o After the device goes away -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 17:28: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5C637B40D for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0271.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.16] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179EXq-00043R-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:27:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:27:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > No, you don't. Just plug it in, and it works. That's the ideal. I need an example. How about a shared library, which contains process attach/detach code (.init/.fini for constructors/destructors for statically declared classes), but not having support for thread attach/detach functions (FreeBSD still lacks this)? (De)Activation is seperate from (de)installation. > > There's really > > no choice. Overloading the same button to turn it off is just > > convenience -- you'd need a button to turn things off, even if you > > used the availability of electricity to turn the thing on, since > > even if engagement is automatic, you need to explicitly disengage. > > Again, I disagree. If you want to turn it off, you can use the > software. If the software doesn't work, you can unplug it. And if the software *does* work... 8-)... how do I turn it back on? One of the interesting problems with the InterJet was the LCD bezel light. It didn't have a "sleep mode" that turned off the light. The other problem was the blinky lights for network activity, etc.. If it's really an appliance, like a fax machine, then it needs to be obviously idle when it comes time to close the office at the end of the business day. There's a really simple equation here: "Lights blinking" == "Costing me money" Go to 5 small businesses. Watch them shut down their office at night, and open it in the morning. Take copius notes. Now ask them about the difference between the things they power off and the things they don't power off. Ask them specifically why they shut off the laser printers, but not the fax machine or the telephone (hint: telephones are "off" because they have an obvious "switch" that's default in the "off" position). As them about the ringer on the phone (most offices, this "turns off" automatically, when the phone system goes into "night mode"), and then observe what they do with the copy machine -- do they turn it off, or do they trust the "power save mode"? With 5 offices, you should see some variety in theis last one. Classify the difference in the machines that get turned off vs. those that don't: the copy machine is good, because depending on the machine, you'll get different answers. One real problem we had with InterJets was that people would actually turn them off every night before leaving the office. It was because of the lights. > > My favorite example is the Western European road-side-assistance > > kiosks: One big yellow button that meant "fullfill your purpose". > > I've only seen those in the Netherlands, and even then only in > some parts. And that's only because the device is already plugged in > and ready to go. Plugging something in doesn't feel like doing something to activate it. It's different. Yes, the kiosks are "plugged in". But they aren't "on" -- where "on := active" -- until you press the button. If nothing else, humans like control. 8-). > > Celestix. > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/supercenter/stories/review/0,12070,478772,00.html > > > > The thing runs Linux, by default. > > The device itself seems fine to me, but I want something that > natively runs BSD. If I was to seriously look at buying a Celestix, > then I might as well buy a Qube instead. One of the first things we always did in engineering at Whistle was, as soon as we got our hands on the competitor's hardware, if the thing was Intel-based, "turn it into an InterJet". Mostly this was our comment on engineering's inability to understand why we couldn't do really cheap (commodity level pricing) hardware for the InterJet. InterJets, even after the IBM scaling COGS, were relatively much more expensive than comparable routers or other edge of network equipment. I guess it just pissed us off that we could buy a competitors product, load our software on it, and come out with something that could still make a profit, and was cheaper than an InterJet for someone to buy. > > But as I said before: I think they missed the boat with the > > design, since they are just copying the InterJet (IMO), and > > the InterJet missed the boat, too. > > For other people, the interface may not be ideal. But for me, it > would be good. My problem is that I want to buy a device like this, > but that runs FreeBSD. > > I don't want to buy a machine and then try to retro-fit FreeBSD > onto it, because it is likely that they have included some > proprietary hardware (e.g., an LCD display) that is not supported by > FreeBSD, and I may not be able to get it to work at all. Linux: demand the source code. Most likely, they are using one of the LCDs referenced at "linux1u" anyway (serial or parallel commodity LCY; my bet would be on serial). > If I'm going to be forced to go the retro-fit route anyway, then > I might as well buy a Qube. Have fun porting to MIPS. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 17:32:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45CF37B409 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4J0VHH29387; Sun, 19 May 2002 02:31:17 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:30:28 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Brad Knowles , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:51 PM -0700 2002/05/18, Terry Lambert wrote: > Can't do a graceful shutdown without a button. > > I actually would be uncomfortable with something that didn't have > an activation sequence of some kind that didn't include something > that you normally don't do (plugging/unplugging is supposed to be > limited to installation and deinstallation, not activation and > deactivation). I can't think of a VCR, DVD, or cable box that operates this way. All consumer electronics devices I know of are capable of losing power and rebooting cleanly. Consumer electronic devices that can't take this sort situation simply don't survive in the business. > Actually, you don't have to do the DNS thing, if you can do the > DNSUPDAT thing. So: > > o Find the gateway > o Find your IP > o Find the name server from the root > o Reverse lookup your IP to get the domain name > o Use the DNS information based on your role to > configure yourself This assumes that reverse DNS is set up correctly. It also assumes that you can get through the firewall. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 17:53: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D88037B406 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.189.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.189] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179EwE-0007b7-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:52:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE6F73C.2A8F4EA2@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:52:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:51 PM -0700 2002/05/18, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Can't do a graceful shutdown without a button. > > > > I actually would be uncomfortable with something that didn't have > > an activation sequence of some kind that didn't include something > > that you normally don't do (plugging/unplugging is supposed to be > > limited to installation and deinstallation, not activation and > > deactivation). > > I can't think of a VCR, DVD, or cable box that operates this way. > All consumer electronics devices I know of are capable of losing > power and rebooting cleanly. Consumer electronic devices that can't > take this sort situation simply don't survive in the business. First, all of my DVD, VCR and other consumer electronics equipment have power buttons. Second, it's still *not about the device*; it's about everything that grows to depend on the device. > > Actually, you don't have to do the DNS thing, if you can do the > > DNSUPDAT thing. So: > > > > o Find the gateway > > o Find your IP > > o Find the name server from the root > > o Reverse lookup your IP to get the domain name > > o Use the DNS information based on your role to > > configure yourself > > This assumes that reverse DNS is set up correctly. It also > assumes that you can get through the firewall. Yes, it does. It assumes that you haven't intentionally flipped the breaker to keep the plug from working. 8-). In general, we expect these things to have been set up by a third party, since we assume that you don't have an on-site geek. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 18:23:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5429837B401 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 18:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4J1MlH23372; Sun, 19 May 2002 03:22:47 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 03:21:27 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:27 PM -0700 2002/05/18, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Again, I disagree. If you want to turn it off, you can use the >> software. If the software doesn't work, you can unplug it. > > And if the software *does* work... 8-)... how do I turn it back > on? Unplug it and then plug it back in. > If it's really an appliance, like a fax machine, then it needs to be > obviously idle when it comes time to close the office at the end of > the business day. Now there is a statement that I'll agree with. > There's a really simple equation here: > > "Lights blinking" == "Costing me money" Employees don't think about this. Maybe managers do, but employees don't. Trust me, we had a "monitors off" policy at Skynet, a big sign on the the door that said "Did you turn off your monitor?", etc.... And no one ever did. My wife's company has the same policy, and they don't do it either. Whenever we go in on the weekends, I usually spend ten or fifteen minutes going around the office and turning off all the monitors -- the ones that have been on since Friday. > One real problem we had with InterJets was that people would > actually turn them off every night before leaving the office. It > was because of the lights. You definitely need a way to turn off the LCD, while leaving the rest of the system in a "sleep" mode. > Linux: demand the source code. Most likely, they are using one > of the LCDs referenced at "linux1u" anyway (serial or parallel > commodity LCY; my bet would be on serial). Asking for the source code doesn't help me if I'm not a programmer, and if I can't then contribute the code back to the FreeBSD project. >> If I'm going to be forced to go the retro-fit route anyway, then >> I might as well buy a Qube. > > Have fun porting to MIPS. The Qube runs MIPS? I thought it was an x86 architecture? I know that some of the older 1U hardware was based on MIPS, but I thought that they had used a different architecture for the Qube. Okay, so I run NetBSD instead. I'd prefer FreeBSD, but if I have no choice, then so be it. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 18:28:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B8037B406 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 18:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4J1RsH28839; Sun, 19 May 2002 03:27:54 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CE6F73C.2A8F4EA2@mindspring.com> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> <3CE6F73C.2A8F4EA2@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 03:27:20 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:52 PM -0700 2002/05/18, Terry Lambert wrote: > First, all of my DVD, VCR and other consumer electronics equipment > have power buttons. DVDs and VCRs -- yes. However, I've known cable boxes that didn't. > Yes, it does. It assumes that you haven't intentionally flipped > the breaker to keep the plug from working. 8-). When you're talking about SOHO use, then you have to assume that the service provider may very well have done just these sorts of things that would keep your box from working. > In general, we expect these things to have been set up by a third > party, since we assume that you don't have an on-site geek. Then they'd have to be set up by the service provider, at which point you've lost the advantage of retail sales. For complex devices like this, if it needs to interact with the outside world in any way during the setup process, you have to either assume that there is an on-site geek or someone that can be called in to provide on-site support, or you have to sell exclusively through service providers who can send a pre-configured box out with the "cable guy" to plug in at the customer's house. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 18 18:31:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4866B37B40A for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 18:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4J1UhY08189; Sun, 19 May 2002 03:30:43 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 03:30:33 +0200 To: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:21 AM +0200 2002/05/19, Brad Knowles wrote: >> "Lights blinking" == "Costing me money" > > Employees don't think about this. Maybe managers do, but > employees don't. Trust me, we had a "monitors off" policy at > Skynet, a big sign on the the door that said "Did you turn off > your monitor?", etc.... And no one ever did. Come to think of it, the better solution is to replace the monitors with equipment that draws less power when it's turned on, and has it's own auto-shutoff circuitry. LCD monitors spring to mind. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message