From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 0:37:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B9537B405 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 00:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0049.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.49] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179LFr-0006X1-00; Sun, 19 May 2002 00:37:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE75614.25A740B6@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:36:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Again, I disagree. If you want to turn it off, you can use the > >> software. If the software doesn't work, you can unplug it. > > > > And if the software *does* work... 8-)... how do I turn it back > > on? > > Unplug it and then plug it back in. Now you are just dancing... > > There's a really simple equation here: > > > > "Lights blinking" == "Costing me money" > > Employees don't think about this. Maybe managers do, but > employees don't. Trust me, we had a "monitors off" policy at Skynet, > a big sign on the the door that said "Did you turn off your > monitor?", etc.... And no one ever did. > > My wife's company has the same policy, and they don't do it > either. Whenever we go in on the weekends, I usually spend ten or > fifteen minutes going around the office and turning off all the > monitors -- the ones that have been on since Friday. 8-). You are the guy who turns off the box, and then complains when the email bounces because your box is unreachable. 8-). > > One real problem we had with InterJets was that people would > > actually turn them off every night before leaving the office. It > > was because of the lights. > > You definitely need a way to turn off the LCD, while leaving the > rest of the system in a "sleep" mode. Yes. I tried to communicate this for almost 3 years. It doesn't even matter if the thing really sleeps, so long as it pretends to. > > > Linux: demand the source code. Most likely, they are using one > > of the LCDs referenced at "linux1u" anyway (serial or parallel > > commodity LCY; my bet would be on serial). > > Asking for the source code doesn't help me if I'm not a > programmer, and if I can't then contribute the code back to the > FreeBSD project. That's OK. I happen to know you're a programmer, and good enough to use the code they give you as a reference, rather than porting it directly, so it could come right back to the project. 8-). > >> If I'm going to be forced to go the retro-fit route anyway, then > >> I might as well buy a Qube. > > > > Have fun porting to MIPS. > > The Qube runs MIPS? I thought it was an x86 architecture? I > know that some of the older 1U hardware was based on MIPS, but I > thought that they had used a different architecture for the Qube. > > Okay, so I run NetBSD instead. I'd prefer FreeBSD, but if I have > no choice, then so be it. Depends on the Qube. The Qube 3 is x86. This is really surprising, since I know one of the reasons Sun wanted an Internet appliance company was to start shipping 2xIPC form factor boxes. They tried to convince Whistle to do that. I guess with a Qube, it's open enough to user applications (another difference about the InterJet) that Intel compatability becomes more important. It'd probably be pretty easy to hack the front panel, etc., in the Cobalt devices, if you really wanted to. Actually, I wonder if you could maybe get an e.go (Encanto) box; it was definitely FreeBSD based. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 1:13:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67C937B400 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 01:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0049.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.49] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179LoW-0000CM-00; Sun, 19 May 2002 01:13:12 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE75E77.4AFD522F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 01:12:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randall Hamilton Cc: Brad Knowles , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> <3CE6F73C.2A8F4EA2@mindspring.com> <001101c1fef4$6858cd10$0301a8c0@nitedog> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall Hamilton wrote: > > > First, all of my DVD, VCR and other consumer electronics equipment > > > have power buttons. > > > > DVDs and VCRs -- yes. However, I've known cable boxes that didn't. > > frankly...i prefer everything have a power switch. from my coffee machine to > my TV. its a matter of convience really... > > I would much rather turn off my tv by the remote then climb behind my > entertainment stand and unplug it when im done watching it. same concept > applies to every other device i own. unplugging it is simply a horrid way of > doing it. the general standard is power switches = good. > > and I, for one, and not gonna disagree with that. In a reasonable world, power outlets and the mating end of the cords would be milspec 3 connector rotating-lock recessed; i.e. you have to put the plug in the hole far enough that there is no way to touch the prongs at all, and it must be rotate-to-engage, to prevent nails/paper clips/bobby pins being used, and it should "child-proof-cap" into place, requiring "push-and-rotate" to disengage (or even an "eject" button). Makes vacuuming a bit more work, but, that's not a real problem. It really should be physically impossible for a child to partially pull out a power cord and electrocute themselves... just like it's not possible for U.S. Marines working on shop equipment. When I was a kid, we actually bought government surplus shop equipment, which included power strips built into the benches, and plugs like this on equipment (though they lacked sufficient recess to keep a marine safe, if they were determined, an accidental unplugging was really impossible). With such things in place, switches are really not an option at all. I've been very tempted several times to build an outlet with a bezel to hid the plug prongs, and a PCMCIA-style "eject" button, where the outlet would throw pins through the holes in the ends of the prongs. Basically, consumer device saftey in the U.S., Europe, Japan, etc., really sucks. I've basically resigned myself to the idea that light sockets and wall outlets are not likely to change, and we are stuck with them. Tempting to do the "child saftey" rap, though, since you could really end up selling adapters, etc., to the yuppie crowd (yuppies are so populous not because they breed any faster than normal people, but because they take things like child safety seriously ;^)). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 6:44: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C74D37B405 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 06:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g4JDi3m32590 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 19 May 2002 06:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 06:44:03 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020519064403.A6139@ehlke.net> References: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:21:27AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:21:27AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > My wife's company has the same policy, and they don't do it > either. Whenever we go in on the weekends, I usually spend ten or > fifteen minutes going around the office and turning off all the > monitors -- the ones that have been on since Friday. > Arrrgh. At my first paid sysadminning gig, the MVS system programmer would do this. I always knew when he had been in on the weekend when, on Monday morning, I'd get three or four calls from confused people in sales and customer service complaining that their Xterm was dead. Them: My Xterm is broken!!!! The screen won't come on!!! It always comes on when I move my mouse!!! Me: Yeah, Mike worked over the weekend. The power switch for your monitor is on the right side, near the top. Turn it on. Them: Oh, I love you!!! Me: *sigh* -P. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 9:58:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512EA37B40F for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 09:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g4JGuRb5090396; Sun, 19 May 2002 12:56:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 12:56:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions In-Reply-To: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, a quick glance at the most recent status report was all it took to re-confirm for me that the project is far from dead. You can take a look at it at: http://www.FreeBSD.org/news/status/report-feb-2002-apr-2002.html Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services On Fri, 17 May 2002, j mckitrick wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have a question or two about the current core election. A few of the > remarks made by the candidates, such as 'the project is broken' sound a > bit disconcerting. I am sure there are and always will be problems with > getting a large number of volunteers to work in a coherent, civil > manner, while keeping the technology and stability of the OS at proper > priority. However, maybe I have missed a lot of news, but is the > project in *that* bad of shape that we can say or even imply that it is > 'broken'? > > Also, I don't want to pick on the candidate who made the remark, because > several other comments say about the same thing. > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. > > jm > -- > My other computer is your windows box. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 12:56:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C260937B401 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 12:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4JJtsH15972; Sun, 19 May 2002 21:55:54 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001101c1fef4$6858cd10$0301a8c0@nitedog> References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> <3CE6F73C.2A8F4EA2@mindspring.com> <001101c1fef4$6858cd10$0301a8c0@nitedog> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 21:46:08 +0200 To: "Randall Hamilton" , "Terry Lambert" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The road ahead? Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Miguel Mendez" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:17 AM -0400 2002/05/19, Randall Hamilton wrote: > I would much rather turn off my tv by the remote then climb behind my > entertainment stand and unplug it when im done watching it. That's "using the software". You don't think that the red or green colored button on your remote actually has any physical connection to the power supply of the TV, do you? > same concept > applies to every other device i own. unplugging it is simply a horrid way of > doing it. the general standard is power switches = good. There are hard switches, and "using the software". There's a difference. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 13:28:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6240837B401 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0109.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.109] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179XI9-00019b-00; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:28:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE80AD4.53B4382B@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 13:28:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Ehlke Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> <20020519064403.A6139@ehlke.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete Ehlke wrote: > Arrrgh. At my first paid sysadminning gig, the MVS system programmer > would do this. I always knew when he had been in on the weekend when, on > Monday morning, I'd get three or four calls from confused people in > sales and customer service complaining that their Xterm was dead. > > Them: My Xterm is broken!!!! The screen won't come on!!! It always comes > on when I move my mouse!!! > > Me: Yeah, Mike worked over the weekend. The power switch for your > monitor is on the right side, near the top. Turn it on. > > Them: Oh, I love you!!! > > Me: *sigh* Oh oh oh! Anecdotes! 8-). I had a user call me to complain that our software had killed her Wyse 50 terminal. After discussing it for a *long time*, most of which was calming her down and promising to have the terminal repaired, if it really was our fault, I had her hit the spacebar, and, voila! The terminal came back to life! It turned out that our software automated a number of tasks she formerly did by hand, but of course, not instantaneously, so now running our software to do the work was the first time she had ever left the keyboard idle long enough for the factory default for the screen saver to kick in. 8-) 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 13:43:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4474A37B40E; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020519204350.FRWE8004.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Sun, 19 May 2002 20:43:50 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4JKhmE77856; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: blossom.cjclark.org: cjc set sender to crist.clark@attbi.com using -f Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 13:43:48 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark" References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from asmodai@wxs.nl on Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:03:25PM +0200 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:03:25PM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > [Follow-up to -chat] > [This is all according to the books I have as well as my understanding, > hence my strong wording. :) ] > > -On [20020517 06:45], Alexey Dokuchaev (danfe@regency.nsu.ru) wrote: > >On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:05:11PM -0700, Peter Wemm wrote: > >> > >> There is no such word as "filesystem". "file system" is more correct. > > > >There is, actually... My ispell doesn't object, at least, and neither > >does Lingvo (FWIH). > > No, there is not a word like filesystem. It is a common misused word in > English. > Lingvo and ispell are wrong on this account. > > >Personally, I would consider this issue a matter of personal > >preference, and frankly I go for "filesystem" as a single word. > > It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very > explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. > People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this > behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" debate? -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 14:27:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06CF737B411 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0109.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.109] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179YCB-0002kK-00; Sun, 19 May 2002 14:26:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE81864.1109ED7B@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:25:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Randall Hamilton , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <20020516151801.A47974@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020516172853.A7750@daemon.tisys.org> <3CE40759.7C584101@mindspring.com> <20020516220616.A51305@energyhq.homeip.net> <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <15589.63655.94078.482179@guru.mired.org> <3CE61284.80ADD241@mindspring.com> <15590.58578.811389.223502@guru.mired.org> <3CE6E8ED.84E431F@mindspring.com> <3CE6F73C.2A8F4EA2@mindspring.com> <001101c1fef4$6858cd10$0301a8c0@nitedog> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:17 AM -0400 2002/05/19, Randall Hamilton wrote: > > > I would much rather turn off my tv by the remote then climb behind my > > entertainment stand and unplug it when im done watching it. > > That's "using the software". You don't think that the red or > green colored button on your remote actually has any physical > connection to the power supply of the TV, do you? He's right. He talking about using the remote to turn it off. It's only if you want it back *on* that you have to unplug and replug it. 8-) 8-) 8-). Unless the buttons on remotes don't count as buttons? Then you could turn it back on with the remote... 8^P -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 14:45: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D918737B40E; Sun, 19 May 2002 14:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0109.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.109] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179YU0-0000zw-00; Sun, 19 May 2002 14:44:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE81CB5.A709DBA2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:44:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > debate? "web%20site"/"web%20page". We get rid of spaces because we make subdirectories. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 15: 7:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4671937B476 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 15:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g4JM6fj21055; Sun, 19 May 2002 15:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 15:06:41 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? Message-ID: <20020519150641.C21491@ehlke.net> References: <3CE43D08.1FDBF0A3@mindspring.com> <20020517163624.GB9697@hades.hell.gr> <3CE58F73.1A7F50AF@mindspring.com> <3CE5B62B.2B26239B@mindspring.com> <3CE6F154.989966DD@mindspring.com> <20020519064403.A6139@ehlke.net> <3CE80AD4.53B4382B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE80AD4.53B4382B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, May 19, 2002 at 01:28:04PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 01:28:04PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Oh oh oh! Anecdotes! 8-). > > I had a user call me to complain that our software had killed her > Wyse 50 terminal. > > After discussing it for a *long time*, most of which was calming > her down and promising to have the terminal repaired, if it really > was our fault, I had her hit the spacebar, and, voila! The > terminal came back to life! > > It turned out that our software automated a number of tasks she > formerly did by hand, but of course, not instantaneously, so now > running our software to do the work was the first time she had > ever left the keyboard idle long enough for the factory default > for the screen saver to kick in. > Heh. I had a user who used to quite regularly backspace over her prompt on a Wyse. She'd freak out, claim it was broken, and demand that the sysadmin staff come down and fix it for her. This happened over and over and over again, and she never could keep it straight in her head how to fix her 'problem'. We ended up writing something that would locate her tty, clear the screen, and send a crlf, and running it every time she called. "Ohhhhh... did you fix it?" But now we're drifting into stories that I originally told back in the early days of the scary devil monestary, and I think I've recovered too much to want to dredge up too many of those :/ -Pete To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 16:21:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB48D37B40D; Sun, 19 May 2002 16:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.215] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4JNLIY07746; Mon, 20 May 2002 01:21:19 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 01:05:21 +0200 To: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, "Crist J. Clark" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:43 PM -0700 2002/05/19, Crist J. Clark wrote: > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > debate? Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 17:30:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464D537B408; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8FAAC81555; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:00:00 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:00:00 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 19 May 2002 at 13:43:48 -0700, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:03:25PM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: >> [Follow-up to -chat] >> [This is all according to the books I have as well as my understanding, >> hence my strong wording. :) ] >> >> -On [20020517 06:45], Alexey Dokuchaev (danfe@regency.nsu.ru) wrote: >>> On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 03:05:11PM -0700, Peter Wemm wrote: >>>> >>>> There is no such word as "filesystem". "file system" is more correct. >>> >>> There is, actually... My ispell doesn't object, at least, and neither >>> does Lingvo (FWIH). >> >> No, there is not a word like filesystem. It is a common misused word in >> English. >> Lingvo and ispell are wrong on this account. >> >>> Personally, I would consider this issue a matter of personal >>> preference, and frankly I go for "filesystem" as a single word. >> >> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very >> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. >> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this >> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you see this sort of thing from time to time. > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > debate? Once we clarify the "book case" vs. "bookcase" debate. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 17:54:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1468C37B405; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0551.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.200.41] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179bRB-0000nE-00; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:54:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE84912.DEF2185F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 17:53:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > > debate? > > Once we clarify the "book case" vs. "bookcase" debate. Whould this be a "bikeshed" or a "bike shed"? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 17:58:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out020.verizon.net (out020pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E0A37B40F; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net ([4.34.145.186]) by out020.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020520005830.OTYA1765.out020.verizon.net@gte.net>; Sun, 19 May 2002 19:58:30 -0500 Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07701; Sun, 19 May 2002 17:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 17:58:54 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG, "Crist J. Clark" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020519175854.E844@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:05:21AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org While we're at it, can we figure out once and for all, just what character code should be returned when you press the backspace key? Maybe we can even make ps do the same thing with -ef that it does with -ax. [RC] On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:05:21AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:43 PM -0700 2002/05/19, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > > debate? > > Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 18:25:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3819837B40E; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BFC3D8148E; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:55:37 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:55:37 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520105537.N54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CE84912.DEF2185F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CE84912.DEF2185F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 19 May 2002 at 17:53:38 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" >>> debate? >> >> Once we clarify the "book case" vs. "bookcase" debate. > > Whould this be a "bikeshed" or a "bike shed"? "Bike shed", definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 22:32:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECA237B404; Sun, 19 May 2002 22:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g4K5WJC17402; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:32:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4K5WEN20353; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:32:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:30:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020519.233054.61932055.imp@village.org> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: grog@FreeBSD.org, cjc@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org, danfe@regency.nsu.ru, peter@wemm.org, trhodes@FreeBSD.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <3CE84912.DEF2185F@mindspring.com> References: <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CE84912.DEF2185F@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message: <3CE84912.DEF2185F@mindspring.com> Terry Lambert writes: : Whould this be a "bikeshed" or a "bike shed"? I don't know. Is anal-retentive hypenated or not? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 1:44: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from a96180.upc-a.chello.nl (a96180.upc-a.chello.nl [62.163.96.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010E837B404; Mon, 20 May 2002 01:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by a96180.upc-a.chello.nl (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C2132171; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:43:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:43:54 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Organisation: Ninth Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20020520 02:45], Greg 'groggy' Lehey (grog@FreeBSD.org) wrote: >>> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very >>> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. >>> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this >>> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. > >In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the >opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you >see this sort of thing from time to time. That's what I said. Reread what I wrote again. :) Dutch and German hold some of the longest words known in all latin character based languages. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono asmodai@wxs.nl, finger asmodai@ninth-circle.org http://www.softweyr.com/asmodai/ | http://www.tendra.org/ Quoth the raven, "Nevermore!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 2: 7:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F238837B410 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 02:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id ABAD181679; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:37:46 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:37:46 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520183746.J12212@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 20 May 2002 at 10:43:54 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > -On [20020520 02:45], Greg 'groggy' Lehey (grog@FreeBSD.org) wrote: >>>> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very >>>> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. >>>> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this >>>> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. >> >> In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the >> opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you >> see this sort of thing from time to time. > > That's what I said. Reread what I wrote again. :) It still says what it said before: "but this behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German." This doesn't imply that it's mandated, but it is. That's what I clarified. > Dutch and German hold some of the longest words known in all latin > character based languages. Well, this is purely a matter of the printed word. That's a thing that many English-speaking people don't understand. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 2:16:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6214237B40E; Mon, 20 May 2002 02:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4K9GQH93939 ; Mon, 20 May 2002 11:16:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA13463 ; Mon, 20 May 2002 11:16:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:16:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520111626.B12293@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020520183746.J12212@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020520183746.J12212@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:37:46PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 20, 2002 at 18:37:46: > On Monday, 20 May 2002 at 10:43:54 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > > -On [20020520 02:45], Greg 'groggy' Lehey (grog@FreeBSD.org) wrote: > >>>> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very > >>>> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. > >>>> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this > >>>> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. > >> > >> In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the > >> opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you > >> see this sort of thing from time to time. > > > > That's what I said. Reread what I wrote again. :) > > It still says what it said before: "but this behaviour is actually > more common in Dutch and German." This doesn't imply that it's > mandated, but it is. That's what I clarified. Is all this "nitpicking" or "nit-picking"? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 2:26:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A7337B448; Mon, 20 May 2002 02:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0031.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.31] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179jQn-0001C9-00; Mon, 20 May 2002 02:26:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE8C111.256F9DF0@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:25:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020520183746.J12212@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020520111626.B12293@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > It still says what it said before: "but this behaviour is actually > > more common in Dutch and German." This doesn't imply that it's > > mandated, but it is. That's what I clarified. > > Is all this "nitpicking" or "nit-picking"? I was too busy typing "ps -gax" instead of "ps gax" to notice... Luckily, the software is not as picky as the engineers. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 3:37:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131A837B403; Mon, 20 May 2002 03:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 179kXs-000MRm-00; Mon, 20 May 2002 11:37:40 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g4KAbUi30324; Mon, 20 May 2002 11:37:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:37:30 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD core team questions Message-ID: <20020520113730.B30289@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020517140016.A97742@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@freebsd.org on Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:56:27PM -0400 X-Scanner: exiscan *179kXs-000MRm-00*6Jzeb5hOJAU* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:56:27PM -0400, Robert Watson wrote: | FWIW, a quick glance at the most recent status report was all it took to | re-confirm for me that the project is far from dead. You can take a look Well, that's for sure, so it makes me think the original comment was a bit of an exaggeration. But we all know how quickly things change, and how in technology if you aren't moving forward, you are being left behind. But I guess fundamentally the comment was addressed to the people management side of the project, not the code itself, of course. And as has been pointed out, the public really wasn't supposed to be involved in the details of the election anyway. I guess that's why the election page disappeared so quickly. ;-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 5:45:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [193.124.215.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1610F37B40A; Mon, 20 May 2002 05:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from drweb by mail.nsu.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim 3.20 #1) id 179le0-00018j-00; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:48:04 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru ([193.124.210.26]) by mail.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 179ldz-00018A-00; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:48:03 +0700 Received: (from danfe@localhost) by regency.nsu.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4KBlxo76238; Mon, 20 May 2002 18:47:59 +0700 (NOVST) (envelope-from danfe) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:47:58 +0700 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520184758.A73384@regency.nsu.ru> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from asmodai@wxs.nl on Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:03:25PM +0200 X-Envelope-To: cvs-all@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org, grog@freebsd.org, trhodes@freebsd.org, peter@wemm.org, chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:03:25PM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > > It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very > explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. > People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this > behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. It is rather common when some technical slang term becomes part of a language, and is no longer should be treated as erroneous as it might seem from "compound noun rules", IMHO, and "filesystem" is a perfect example of this. ./danfe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 13:22:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86F037B409; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0335.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.80] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 179tfU-0006ad-00; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:22:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE95AD2.CF4684F1@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:21:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Damon Anton Permezel , Peter Pentchev , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.6-* sendmail misfeatures References: <20020520105154.E962@damon.com> <20020520191546.D349@straylight.oblivion.bg> <20020520122558.F962@damon.com> <20020520114823.D1468@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > The issue is that the server is reporting a _transient_ failure. That > is, it's telling us that if we wait and try again later, we might get > a correct response. How do we know if it is a permanently broken > server or one that really is having a transient problem that will be > fixed soon? See 5.2.3 of RFC 1034. > > Funny thing is that austinenergy.com seems to have one NS that deals > with AAAA queries in an OK-way and one that doesn't. Yeah; consider if you were dealing with a human... A: [dial-dial-dial, ring-ring-ring] B: Hello? A: Hi, is Robert James there? B: I'm sorry; can you call back later? C: [dial-dial-dial, ring-ring-ring] B: Hello? C: Hi, is Bob James there? B: Sure; let me put you through [... put's C through ...] D: [dial-dial-dial, ring-ring-ring] Z: Hello? D: Hi, is Robert James there? Z: Sure; let me put you through [... put's D through ...] A: [dial-dial-dial, ring-ring-ring] B: Hello? A: Hi, is Robert James there? B: I'm sorry; can you call back later? E: [dial-dial-dial, ring-ring-ring] B: Hello? E: Hi, is Bob James there? B: Sure; let me put you through [... put's E through ...] ...ugly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 13:51:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E509B37B42B; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a233.otenet.gr [212.205.215.233]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4KKpHwM019408; Mon, 20 May 2002 23:51:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4KKpBCt019596; Mon, 20 May 2002 23:51:16 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4KIk2Zn018847; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:46:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 21:46:02 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520184601.GA18686@hades.hell.gr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-20 01:05, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:43 PM -0700 2002/05/19, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > > debate? > > Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) Knuth says that "email" is better because "think of all the saved time, bandwidth and wasted human typing we can have if we standardise on 'email' instead of 'e-mail'." Ho ho ho. -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 19:39:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4A037B40D for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 77B398148C; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:09:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:09:30 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521120930.A4408@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520100000.K54769@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020520183746.J12212@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020520111626.B12293@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020520111626.B12293@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 20 May 2002 at 11:16:26 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 20, 2002 at 18:37:46: >> On Monday, 20 May 2002 at 10:43:54 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: >>> -On [20020520 02:45], Greg 'groggy' Lehey (grog@FreeBSD.org) wrote: >>>>>> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very >>>>>> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. >>>>>> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this >>>>>> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. >>>> >>>> In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the >>>> opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you >>>> see this sort of thing from time to time. >>> >>> That's what I said. Reread what I wrote again. :) >> >> It still says what it said before: "but this behaviour is actually >> more common in Dutch and German." This doesn't imply that it's >> mandated, but it is. That's what I clarified. > > Is all this "nitpicking" or "nit-picking"? nit-picking. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 19:57:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA6C37B40A; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4L2v6Jn079073; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4L2v3OK079072; Mon, 20 May 2002 19:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:57:03 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, "Crist J. Clark" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Brad Knowles , "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, "Crist J. Clark" References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:05:21AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:05:21AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > So when do we start the "web site"/"website" and "web page"/"webpage" > > debate? > > Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) Knuth already did -- http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html A note on email versus e-mail Newly coined nonce words of English are often spelled with a hyphen, but the hyphen disappears when the words become widely used. For example, people used to write ``non-zero'' and ``soft-ware'' instead of ``nonzero'' and ``software''; the same trend has occurred for hundreds of other words. Thus it's high time for everybody to stop using the archaic spelling ``e-mail''. Think of how many keystrokes you will save in your lifetime if you stop now! The form ``email'' has been well established in England for several years, so I am amazed to see Americans being overly conservative in this regard. (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England --- but for an entirely different reason.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 21:10:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C40537B408 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 21:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.226.234] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A875B1F0054; Mon, 20 May 2002 23:09:25 -0500 Message-ID: <040801c2007d$64dfdd60$fbec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Nils Holland" Cc: References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> Subject: Re: The road ahead? Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 23:10:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Original Message: From: "Nils Holland" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:49 PM Subject: The road ahead? >> Of course, one could say that new technological inventations are made at a >> faster pace than ever before - but I guess this is only half of the truth: >> For the ordinary Joe, DOS turning into Windows 3.1, Windows 3.1 turning >> into Windows 95, and so on, was a real revolution. What seems to be >> invented these days seems to be only toys, no more revolutions! Does the >> new Fisher Price look in Windows XP make computers easier to use or people >> more productive, just like the switch from DOS to graphical Windows did for >> ordinary users? I guess not. And then - what else is "new" these days? Some >> folks would see the ability to talk to your computer as the next big >> revolution (which is partly already possible), but I fear that I have to >> say that talking would actually slow folks down, compared to having them >> enter commands or use the mouse within a GUI. So, another toy, but nothing >> new! > >The innovators are not the profiteers. The guy (gal?) who brings about >the next revolution will be an unknown, sweating away feverishly on some >post-doctoral work or some development.... Who was Ray Tomlinson >prior to 1971? And, how many of us know about him now? Of interest? http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/20/technology/20NANO.html?todaysheadlines K Kinsey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 23:46:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C8737B40B for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 23:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0555.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.45] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17A3P5-0001Rj-00; Mon, 20 May 2002 23:45:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3CE9ECFE.1ADDD7C8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 23:45:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The road ahead? References: <20020516004909.A9808@daemon.tisys.org> <040801c2007d$64dfdd60$fbec910c@daleco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > >The innovators are not the profiteers. The guy (gal?) who brings about > >the next revolution will be an unknown, sweating away feverishly on some > >post-doctoral work or some development.... Who was Ray Tomlinson > >prior to 1971? And, how many of us know about him now? > > Of interest? > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/20/technology/20NANO.html?todaysheadlines IBM Almaden expects to make money off this. Their time window is 10 years. Moore's law theoretically gets us to 3 atoms per gate in 2017. 8-). I rather expect we will get there no matter what, probably much sooner than anyone else thinks. Steve Jurvetson (of Draper Fisher Jurvetson) gave a nice talk at the Entrepreneurial Thought Leaders Seminar at Stanford for the Management Science and Engineering 472 class. It's on DFJ's current funding for Molecular Nanotechnology startups. You can actually access an archive of the talk at: http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/courses/msande472/020508-msande472-100.asx -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 1:19:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC3537B40F; Tue, 21 May 2002 01:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4L8J7U20129; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:19:07 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:15:57 +0200 To: cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, "Crist J. Clark" , "David O'Brien" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: >> Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) > > Knuth already did -- http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html > > A note on email versus e-mail I consider Knuth to be authoritative on matters relating to computer science. I do not consider him to be authoritative on matters relating to the use of the English language. When this use is recognized and recommended by the Oxford English Dictionary, I might consider it -- but not before. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 1:19:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF5E37B407; Tue, 21 May 2002 01:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4L8JIU20366; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:19:18 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:18:58 +0200 To: cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.org, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, "Crist J. Clark" , "David O'Brien" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England > --- but for an entirely different reason.) Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 1:37:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6122337B407 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 01:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4L8bAH79028 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:37:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA75401 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:37:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:37:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:15:57AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 21, 2002 at 10:15:57: > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > > >> Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) > > > > Knuth already did -- http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html > > > > A note on email versus e-mail > > I consider Knuth to be authoritative on matters relating to > computer science. I do not consider him to be authoritative on > matters relating to the use of the English language. When this use > is recognized and recommended by the Oxford English Dictionary, I > might consider it -- but not before. Dictionaries follow usage of new terminology, they don't dictate them. The second edition was first published in 1989, while the first edition was published in full in 1933, with some supplements in intervening years; in effect, if you insisted on the OED's stamp of authority, you could not have used a lot of new technological words for over 50 years after 1933. And even if the OED tried to dictate a new usage after the fact, it's unlikely to catch on, because the English language has a tradition of being dictated by usage and not by authorities. Even in France, there is an attempt to get people to use "mel" (for "message electronique") or "courriel" (for "courrier electronique") but most people use the English-sounding "email". As for the original dispute about "filesystem" v/s "file system": when I look around my desk, I see a desktop, a lampshade, a doorway, a bookshelf, a trashcan, a cupboard (which does not store cups), a blackboard (which is not black), among other things. All of these started life as two words, and got combined into one word with a specific meaning. A blackboard is not a board which is black, but specifically an object meant to write on with chalk. Similarly, a filesystem is not the cabinet where I keep my assorted folders; it is a separate word with a specific meaning which didn't exist forty years ago, and wasn't important to the general public until much more recently. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 1:51:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F9C37B40B for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 01:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4L8p7H82625 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:51:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA77317 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:51:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:51:07 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521105107.D71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58: > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > > > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar > > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England > > --- but for an entirely different reason.) > > Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* > the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from > another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite > another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). Sorry, what's the contrary meaning? In France, today, at least, "email" means the same thing it does in the US or the UK. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 1:58:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [193.124.215.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185A037B406; Tue, 21 May 2002 01:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from drweb by mail.nsu.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim 3.20 #1) id 17A51S-0004Tu-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:29:34 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru ([193.124.210.26]) by mail.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 17A51S-0004Tf-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:29:34 +0700 Received: (from danfe@localhost) by regency.nsu.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4L8Ttg29758; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:29:55 +0700 (NOVST) (envelope-from danfe) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:29:55 +0700 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Brad Knowles Cc: cvs-all@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org, "Crist J. Clark" , chat@freebsd.org, Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , "Crist J. Clark" , "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200 X-Envelope-To: dev-null@NUXI.com, crist.clark@attbi.com, grog@freebsd.org, trhodes@freebsd.org, peter@wemm.org, chat@freebsd.org, cjc@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, brad.knowles@skynet.be Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > > > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar > > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England > > --- but for an entirely different reason.) > > Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* > the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from > another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite > another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). Pardon my unawareness, but what is this "entirely different reason" of France, Germany, and the Netherlands that's been mentioned? Thank you. ./danfe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 2:10: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF7E37B403; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4L99f912755; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:09:41 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521020941.A12551@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , David O'Brien References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Brad Knowles : > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > > > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar > > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England > > --- but for an entirely different reason.) > > Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* > the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from > another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite > another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). ... > I consider Knuth to be authoritative on matters relating to > computer science. I do not consider him to be authoritative on > matters relating to the use of the English language. When this use > is recognized and recommended by the Oxford English Dictionary, I > might consider it -- but not before. Oh come on. Dictionaries don't determine the language; it's the other way around. And nobody is going to confuse an electronic message with a kind of enamel. There's no need to fuss about either spelling. Let's discuss something more important, like why we're now supposed to use `parent' and `child' instead of `father' and `son' in reference to hierarchical data structures, but `fatherland' and `mother ship' are still okay. ;-) Hmm...is it `hierarchical' or `hierarchic'? `Mothership' or `mother ship'? Does `anal retentive' have a hyphen? How about a colon? Aah, I can't take it anymore! Beam me up, Scotty. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 2:10:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866FD37B40C for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4L9AAp86178 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:10:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA78656 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:10:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:10:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru>; from danfe@regency.nsu.ru on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 03:29:55PM +0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexey Dokuchaev said on May 21, 2002 at 15:29:55: > > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when > > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). > > Pardon my unawareness, but what is this "entirely different reason" of > France, Germany, and the Netherlands that's been mentioned? In French, possibly, he's talking about an entirely different word, émail (note the accent), a material used to glaze ceramics: http://www.francophonie.hachette-livre.fr/cgi-bin/sgmlex2?E.SCIP.EL0102600 I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. Grepping through my mailbox, it looks like the French language mails use "email" and "e-mail" equally often (after weeding out redundancy in senders, around 8 examples of each); whereas, in English, "email" is over three times more common than "e-mail"... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 2:21:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D89537B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0069.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.69] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17A5lK-0002Fx-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:16:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:16:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > In French, possibly, he's talking about an entirely different word, > =E9mail (note the accent), a material used to glaze ceramics: > http://www.francophonie.hachette-livre.fr/cgi-bin/sgmlex2?E.SCIP.EL0102= 600 > = > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 2:23:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BE437B482 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4L9N4p89257 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:23:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA79487 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:23:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:23:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:16:28AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:16:28: > > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. > > You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? Fewer and better one-liners, please... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 2:54:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E34C37B405 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0069.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.69] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17A6KK-000645-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:53:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEA18E5.ADD99BDB@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:52:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com> <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > > > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. > > > > You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? > > Fewer and better one-liners, please... Sorry... I don't see how you get _that_ from "I'm sending you an email". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 2:57:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2F937B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 02:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4L9v9p96474 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:57:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA82228 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:57:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:57:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521115709.I71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com> <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA18E5.ADD99BDB@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CEA18E5.ADD99BDB@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:52:37AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:52:37: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > > > > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. > > > > > > You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? > > > > Fewer and better one-liners, please... > > Sorry... I don't see how you get _that_ from "I'm sending you an email". Indeed, no, that does not seem to be the result of sending you an email :( - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 3:12: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD06337B408 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 03:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0069.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.69] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17A6bU-0007Q0-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 03:10:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEA1D0C.CE3043C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 03:10:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com> <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA18E5.ADD99BDB@mindspring.com> <20020521115709.I71209@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:52:37: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > > > > > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. > > > > > > > > You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? > > > > > > Fewer and better one-liners, please... > > > > Sorry... I don't see how you get _that_ from "I'm sending you an email". > > Indeed, no, that does not seem to be the result of sending you an email :( Maybe your hypothesis of "in whatever language" is wrong? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 3:20:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEFE37B40A for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 03:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4LAKQp01602 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:20:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA83695 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:20:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:20:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521122026.A83350@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> <20020521111010.E71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA106C.F3C0BB76@mindspring.com> <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA18E5.ADD99BDB@mindspring.com> <20020521115709.I71209@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEA1D0C.CE3043C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CEA1D0C.CE3043C@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 03:10:20AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 03:10:20: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:52:37: > > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > > > > > > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. > > > > > > > > > > You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? > > > > > > > > Fewer and better one-liners, please... > > > > > > Sorry... I don't see how you get _that_ from "I'm sending you an email". > > > > Indeed, no, that does not seem to be the result of sending you an email :( > > Maybe your hypothesis of "in whatever language" is wrong? Perhaps I was wrong, in any language, in the hope for fewer and better one-liners. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4: 6:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E4037B40C; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LB5xU00344; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:06:00 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521020941.A12551@HAL9000.wox.org> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521020941.A12551@HAL9000.wox.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:05:11 +0200 To: David Schultz , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , "David O'Brien" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:09 AM -0700 2002/05/21, David Schultz wrote: > Oh come on. Dictionaries don't determine the language; it's the other > way around. In the English language, that's generally true. However, dictionary editors usually tend to be fairly conservative, and they do not document usage of a particular type until it is fairly well embedded into the actual common use of the language. The most respected descriptive English language dictionary is the OED, which is why I used it as my "gold standard". -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4: 6:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F296037B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LB5uU00270; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:05:56 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:19:11 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:37 AM +0200 2002/05/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Dictionaries follow usage of new terminology, they don't dictate them. For most English-language dictionaries, this is true. > The second edition was first published in 1989, while the first > edition was published in full in 1933, with some supplements in > intervening years; in effect, if you insisted on the OED's stamp of > authority, you could not have used a lot of new technological words > for over 50 years after 1933. The OED is being updated much more frequently these days, but is still recognized as being the most authoritative source of information on the usage of the English language. That's why I used it as my reference for this discussion. > Even in France, there is an attempt to get people to use > "mel" (for "message electronique") or "courriel" (for "courrier > electronique") but most people use the English-sounding "email". What does La Academie Française have to say about this? I'm sure that they could invent some French-sounding word that would have the official power of law, and could bully most people in the country into complying. This is why I say that the French language is the only dead language still in common use today -- because languages that are alive will mutate and grow in a natural manner, unlike French. > As for the original dispute about "filesystem" v/s "file system": when > I look around my desk, I see a desktop, a lampshade, a doorway, a > bookshelf, a trashcan, a cupboard (which does not store cups), a > blackboard (which is not black), among other things. All of these > started life as two words, and got combined into one word with a > specific meaning. Right, but it took a long time for those words to come into their current form -- something like fifty years or more. There simply hasn't been enough time for the word "filesystem" to have gone through this same process. However, for my part, the use of the word "filesystem" is correct and appropriate, and does not depend on this matter of compound words becoming synthesized over the years into a single word. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4:13:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B5D37B409; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4LBDDwY005682; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:13:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4LBCwdX005677; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:12:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:12:58 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Brad Knowles , cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , "Crist J. Clark" , "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521131258.A5650@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru>; from danfe@regency.nsu.ru on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 03:29:55PM +0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 03:29:55PM +0700, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > > > > > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar > > > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England > > > --- but for an entirely different reason.) > > > > Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* > > the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from > > another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite > > another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps > > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when > > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). > > Pardon my unawareness, but what is this "entirely different reason" of > France, Germany, and the Netherlands that's been mentioned? In Dutch email is a sort of ceramic-like covering you see on old style pans & pots. I think it is also spelled emaille. Hmm, could this be 'enamel' in English? -- | / o / /_ _ wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, the Netherlands To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4:30: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.135.138.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADFC37B414 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 17A7pz-00006h-00 (Debian); Tue, 21 May 2002 12:29:55 +0100 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:29:55 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:15:57AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:15:57AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: > > >> Right after we settle the "e-mail" vs. "email" debate. ;-) > > > > Knuth already did -- http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html > > I consider Knuth to be authoritative on matters relating to > computer science. I do not consider him to be authoritative on > matters relating to the use of the English language. When this use > is recognized and recommended by the Oxford English Dictionary, I > might consider it -- but not before. I have an Oxford Encyclopaedic Dictionary from 1991 that lists email as the primary usage. I expect the same to be true for the full dictionary, but I don't have convenient access to a copy. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ IRISH SEA: SOUTHEASTERLY 5 TO 7, OCCASIONALLY GALE 8. RAIN THEN SQUALLY SHOWERS. GOOD OCCASIONALLY MODERATE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4:30:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9DE37B40B for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4LBUQp13055 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:30:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA87269 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:30:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:30:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 11:19:11AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 21, 2002 at 11:19:11: > > Even in France, there is an attempt to get people to use > > "mel" (for "message electronique") or "courriel" (for "courrier > > electronique") but most people use the English-sounding "email". > > What does La Academie Française have to say about this? I'm sure > that they could invent some French-sounding word that would have the > official power of law, and could bully most people in the country > into complying. I think the officially recommended word is "mél" (it's what the Hachette dictionary urges), but in fact practically nobody uses it, probably because it sounds stupid (they themselves think so). I have noticed some people using "courriel" but that's not because of any official diktat. > This is why I say that the French language is the > only dead language still in common use today -- because languages > that are alive will mutate and grow in a natural manner, unlike > French. You'll be surprised at the number of foreign words in common use in French. From English, there's "weekend", "stop" (in road signs), "ok", and other examples I can't recall offhand; and among technical terms, "CD" (in French it should have been "DC" but isn't -- with "DVD" there's no problem), internet, web, login, etc. There are also coinages you won't find in English, like "footing" (soccer), "fooding" (roughly, the art of eating) and so on. Admittedly the French often do mutilate foreign words when they import them, but that's the people, not the academie. I've noticed French people who can pronounce "Hubbard" quite nicely when speaking English, will say something like "oobaarh" when speaking French. Also unsanctioned by l'Academie Française is an incomprehensible street lingo called "verlan" which inverts words, like "turvoi" for "voiture" and "teibou" for "bouteille" ("verlan" is itself "l'invers" inverted). - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4:32:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.135.138.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488CF37B410 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 17A7sc-0000EV-00 (Debian); Tue, 21 May 2002 12:32:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:32:38 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521123238.B31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* > the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from > another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite > another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). People should not expect words to have unique meanings, especially in English which has some words with multiple contradictory meanings. (cf. "cleave") Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ PORTLAND: SOUTHEAST VEERING SOUTH 6 OR 7, INCREASING GALE 8 FOR A TIME. RAIN THEN SHOWERS. GOOD OCCASIONALLY MODERATE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4:48:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390A237B408 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LBm4U24830; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:48:04 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:47:43 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:30 PM +0200 2002/05/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > You'll be surprised at the number of foreign words in common use in > French. From English, there's "weekend", "stop" (in road signs), > "ok", and other examples I can't recall offhand; and among technical > terms, "CD" (in French it should have been "DC" but isn't -- with > "DVD" there's no problem), internet, web, login, etc. There are also > coinages you won't find in English, like "footing" (soccer), "fooding" > (roughly, the art of eating) and so on. Admittedly the French often > do mutilate foreign words when they import them, but that's the > people, not the academie. > I've noticed French people who can > pronounce "Hubbard" quite nicely when speaking English, will say > something like "oobaarh" when speaking French. That's because the pronunciation of the same word is different in the two languages. My wife and I have kept our names, because both of us are professionals and we have certain affiliations and reputations that we've built up over the years with those names. In the US, it didn't matter so much whether we used her name ("Geyer") or mine, because most people could pronounce and spell them roughly equally well. Moreover, they could deal with the concept of two people being married and living at the same address, but not having the same last name. However, over here, we tend to use her name a lot more. Instead of saying the proper "Guy-ur", they say something more like "Zhie-air", but it's close enough. But the way they mangle "Knowles" is just unbelievable. They can't spell it, either. In addition, unless you want to go into a thirty minute expose as to how two people could be married, living together, and yet not have the same last name, you just don't really bother even trying to correct them when they call you "Monsieur Zhie-air", even though she complains every time that you respond positively to this usage that you are not her father, and therefore you do not have the right to use that name that way. So incredibly bloody fscked up. French-speaking people are so damn snooty sometimes. Occasionally you will run into one that doesn't speak English but will still be friendly and as helpful as possible, but if you don't speak French it seems that most often you will run into people who take a "But you must speak French in order to exist!" type attitude. Every time I run into this, I am reminded yet once again why I am now working for a Dutch company, and I will be learning Dutch although they insist that this is not necessary and that everyone in the company speaks, read, writes, and understands English sufficiently well -- indeed, some of them seem to be better at it than certain "native" speakers I've met. I just can't wait for my lessons to begin, so that the next time I meet one of these assholes, I can tell them, in proper Dutch, something like "For my employer, I am learning Dutch". Let them choke on that, and then maybe they'll remember that they do actually happen to speak & understand English! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 4:54:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE84337B401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LBsRH07776; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:54:27 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:54:30 +0200 To: Tony Finch , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:29 PM +0100 2002/05/21, Tony Finch wrote: > I have an Oxford Encyclopaedic Dictionary from 1991 that lists email as > the primary usage. I expect the same to be true for the full dictionary, > but I don't have convenient access to a copy. I was going to look up the current usage via the online service, but then discovered that it costs UK £350+VAT/ US $550 per year for a personal license (see ). Riiiiiiight. Tell ya what. I'll consider switching usage when I can find a freakin' copy of the goddam thing that is being sold fourth or fifth-hand, and at a price I can bloody afford. Oh, and it has to demonstrate this usage as being primary, too. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 5: 3:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631ED37B409 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4LC3Cp18242 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:03:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA88958 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:03:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:03:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521140312.A88313@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 01:47:43PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 21, 2002 at 13:47:43: > > pronounce "Hubbard" quite nicely when speaking English, will say > > something like "oobaarh" when speaking French. > > That's because the pronunciation of the same word is different in > the two languages. I don't think that's the issue. An English person, speaking in English and pronouncing the French male name "Jean", will pronounce it roughly correct, and not like the English female name "Jean". The French apparently believe that, when they speak their language, they have the right to mutilate other people's names (but will not grant that right to others, ie they will complain if an English speaker doesn't pronounce "François" correctly). > French-speaking people are so damn snooty sometimes. > Occasionally you will run into one that doesn't speak English but > will still be friendly and as helpful as possible, but if you don't > speak French it seems that most often you will run into people who > take a "But you must speak French in order to exist!" type attitude. True, they exist. But even in a city like Paris, most of them quite genuinely have a very hard time with English -- both because their command is bad, and because they're very underconfident in using it. Sometimes they do make the effort anyway, but after I'd spent a few months here, I found that some people refused to talk to me in English because, they claimed, my French was better than their English. (And sometimes that was true.) The reverse side is that they're not snooty about your quality of French: no matter how atrocious it is, they try to understand you, and are overjoyed that you're making an effort at all. If they do in fact speak English they'll help out, otherwise they'll wait patiently while you try to make your meaning clear in broken French... English-speakers, on the other hand, are often quite condescending towards people who speak (or write) bad English. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 5:20:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A1737B406 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2D9A675C3; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191781D9D; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:16:28: :> > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever :> > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. :> :> You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? : :Fewer and better one-liners, please... How about we just nitpick your grammar instead? you wouldn't say "I'm sending you an mail," and it's just as inappropriate a usage with reference to electronic mail. Somewhere, hiding in this message, is a misspelling or grammatical error, as is customary. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 5:27:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F98037B401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4LCRtp22924 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:27:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA90438 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:27:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:27:54 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521142754.A90034@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020521112304.F71209@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 05:21:10AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden said on May 21, 2002 at 05:21:10: > > :Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:16:28: > :> > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever > :> > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. > :> > :> You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? > : > :Fewer and better one-liners, please... > > How about we just nitpick your grammar instead? you wouldn't say "I'm > sending you an mail," An obvious objection being that "mail" begins with a consonant. That apart, > and it's just as inappropriate a usage with > reference to electronic mail. What would you say? "I'm sending you a letter by email"? Give me a break. "Email" (unlike "mail") is accepted as a noun for a single item being transmitted. Even Merriam-Webster agrees with that, though it doesn't agree with the spelling: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=E-mail - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 5:32:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F294537B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 17A8oE-0002xM-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:32:10 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4LBhiij045460 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:43:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4LBhiq5045459 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:43:44 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:43:43 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521152955.A26759@regency.nsu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar > > > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England > > > --- but for an entirely different reason.) > > Pardon my unawareness, but what is this "entirely different reason" of > France, Germany, and the Netherlands that's been mentioned? In the respective languages, "émail", "Email(le)", "email" means enamel. German and Dutch have borrowed the word from French. FWIW, English "enamel" also derives from Old French "esmail". -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 5:36:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1B337B408 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B7E3D75AE; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E1B1D9B; Tue, 21 May 2002 05:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:37:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: <20020521142754.A90034@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :Jamie Bowden said on May 21, 2002 at 05:21:10: :> :> :Terry Lambert said on May 21, 2002 at 02:16:28: :> :> > I don't think there's room for confusion: if I say (in whatever :> :> > language) "I'm sending you an email" it is clear what I mean. :> :> :> :> You are sending us a material used to glaze ceramics? :> : :> :Fewer and better one-liners, please... :> :> How about we just nitpick your grammar instead? you wouldn't say "I'm :> sending you an mail," : :An obvious objection being that "mail" begins with a consonant. That :apart, : :> and it's just as inappropriate a usage with :> reference to electronic mail. : :What would you say? "I'm sending you a letter by email"? Give me a :break. "Email" (unlike "mail") is accepted as a noun for a single :item being transmitted. Even Merriam-Webster agrees with that, though :it doesn't agree with the spelling: : :http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=E-mail I'm sending you a parcel of (e)mail. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 6: 3:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout10.sul.t-online.com (mailout10.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B0837B406; Tue, 21 May 2002 06:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17A8yv-0005lp-09; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:43:13 +0200 Received: from Magelan.Leidinger.net (520065502893-0001@[217.229.214.128]) by fmrl00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 17A8yi-0hpNImC; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:43:00 +0200 Received: from Leidinger.net (netchild@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Magelan.Leidinger.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4LCi2X0001154; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:44:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from netchild@Leidinger.net) Message-Id: <200205211244.g4LCi2X0001154@Magelan.Leidinger.net> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:44:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Alexander Leidinger Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c To: wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl Cc: cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev In-Reply-To: <20020521131258.A5650@freebie.xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Sender: 520065502893-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CC stripped a little bit. On 21 Mai, Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 03:29:55PM +0700, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: >> On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: >> > At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: >> > >> > > (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar >> > > word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England >> > > --- but for an entirely different reason.) >> > >> > Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* >> > the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from >> > another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite >> > another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps >> > pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when >> > you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). >> >> Pardon my unawareness, but what is this "entirely different reason" of >> France, Germany, and the Netherlands that's been mentioned? > > In Dutch email is a sort of ceramic-like covering you see on old style > pans & pots. I think it is also spelled emaille. > > Hmm, could this be 'enamel' in English? My german to english dictionary says so. And it also lists "email" ("Emaille {f}; Email {f}; Schmelzglas {n} - enamel"), but I have to admit that I wasn't aware about this meaning of "Email". And I think most of the relevant people (techies) don't know about this meaning either. If someone is interested: a major computer magazine here in germany ("c't", http://www.heise.de/ct/) uses "E-Mail". Bye, Alexander. -- I believe the technical term is "Oops!" http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 6:13:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060A537B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 06:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LDCrH12877; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:12:54 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:56:05 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:21 AM -0700 2002/05/21, Jamie Bowden wrote: > How about we just nitpick your grammar instead? you wouldn't say "I'm > sending you an mail," and it's just as inappropriate a usage with > reference to electronic mail. > > Somewhere, hiding in this message, is a misspelling or grammatical error, > as is customary. Nah, here Rahul is actually correct. You use "an e-mail" or "an email" either way, because of the a/an issue with the following word beginning with a consonant vs. a vowel. The real problem is when you are referring to something via an acronym or initialism, and the acronym/initialism sounds like it begins with a vowel, whereas the actual phrase spelled out begins with a consonant. Take "WWW" for example -- is it "an WWW page" or "a WWW page"? Clearly, if you were to spell it out, it would be "a world-wide web page", but how do you deal with the initialism? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 6:16:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7B037B40C for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 06:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 82A3F75A7; Tue, 21 May 2002 06:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801971D9D; Tue, 21 May 2002 06:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 06:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: :At 5:21 AM -0700 2002/05/21, Jamie Bowden wrote: : :> How about we just nitpick your grammar instead? you wouldn't say "I'm :> sending you an mail," and it's just as inappropriate a usage with :> reference to electronic mail. :> :> Somewhere, hiding in this message, is a misspelling or grammatical error, :> as is customary. : : Nah, here Rahul is actually correct. You use "an e-mail" or "an :email" either way, because of the a/an issue with the following word :beginning with a consonant vs. a vowel. Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 6:46:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cerberus.jimz.net (cerberus.jimz.net [64.81.165.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 29E5037B401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 06:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24597 invoked by uid 1003); 21 May 2002 13:46:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:46:13 -0400 From: Jim Zajkowski To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521134613.GF19711@jimz.net> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:29 PM +0100 2002/05/21, Tony Finch wrote: > > > I have an Oxford Encyclopaedic Dictionary from 1991 that lists email as > > the primary usage. I expect the same to be true for the full dictionary, > > but I don't have convenient access to a copy. > > I was going to look up the current usage via the online service, > but then discovered that it costs UK £350+VAT/ US $550 per year for a > personal license Conveniently the University I work at has a site license to the OED. It says: email: Colloq. shortening of electronic mail s.v. ELECTRONIC a. 3. e-mail, v.: trans. To send by electronic mail; to communicate with (a person) by electronic mail. Also intr., to establish contact by electronic mail. So, I e-mailed you an email. :-) --Jim -- Jim Zajkowski System Administrator http://www.jimz.net/pgp-pubkey.asc ITCS Contract Services 8A9E 1DDF 944D 83C3 AEAB 8F74 8697 A823 2113 5C53 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 7:18:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF50437B413 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LEI2H04248; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:18:03 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521105107.D71209@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521105107.D71209@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:55:55 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:51 AM +0200 2002/05/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Sorry, what's the contrary meaning? In France, today, at least, > "email" means the same thing it does in the US or the UK. Really? How many people are in France (the CIA World Factbook at estimates that there were 59,551,227 there in 2001)? Of those, how many are technically inclined? Of those, how many are familiar with the concept of e-mail, either through MiniTel or the Internet? Looking at the same page listed above, I see that in 1998 there were 34.86 million telephone land lines in use, and 11.078 million mobile phone lines. There were 55.3 million radios (1997), 34.8 million televisions (1997). Finally, there were 9 million Internet users (2000). Even assuming that all French Internet users agreed on the same use of the same word, I would not be so bold as to claim that: In France, today, at least, "email" means the same thing it does in the US or the UK. When less than seven percent of the entire population of the country uses the Internet! Moreover, I would not make this statement in reference to the word "email" in particular, since this word already has an existing meaning of which we are aware, and which applies to a substance that virtually every Frenchman or Frenchwoman is likely to have encountered at a very young age (enameled tiles in the kitchen and kitchenware). Checking , I note that there is no equivalent of this word found in the dictionary (although e-mail doesn't have an equivalent, either). Contrariwise, looking at , we find the word "enamel". Note that the "Semantic Atlas" at was put together with the assistance of Agence Universitaire de la Francophonie, and explicitly targets both "normal" words and technical terms. Searching the EU translation database (see ), looking for "email" comes up with only one hit, whereas looking looking for "e-mail" comes up with six hits, one of which includes the same hit as found for "email". Searching in , "email" comes up with zero hits whereas "e-mail" comes up with one. Searching in , "email" comes up with only one hit (in a french/german dictionary), whereas "e-mail" comes up with three. Checking , "email" comes up with only one hit, whereas "e-mail" comes up with two. If you want to take real-world usage as your guide to what is proper, as opposed to the standard French proscriptive dictionary method, then I'd have to say that it appears that most people speaking the French language seem to use "e-mail" instead of "email". If you instead want to take the standard French proscriptive dictionary approach, then I'm sure you can choose your dictionary that shows things the way you want, and I can probably choose a different dictionary that shows things the way I want. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 7:19:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B823637B407 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LEI7H04341; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:18:07 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521140312.A88313@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521140312.A88313@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:13:41 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:03 PM +0200 2002/05/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> That's because the pronunciation of the same word is different in >> the two languages. > > I don't think that's the issue. An English person, speaking in > English and pronouncing the French male name "Jean", will pronounce it > roughly correct, and not like the English female name "Jean". Only if they speak French or are aware of the proper French pronunciation, and they are aware that the person themselves is French or from a French-speaking country or region, and therefore would know to apply the proper French pronunciation rules to the French name. Otherwise, they'd almost certainly pronounce it like the female name "Jean", or the alternative male name "Gene". > The > French apparently believe that, when they speak their language, they > have the right to mutilate other people's names (but will not grant > that right to others, ie they will complain if an English speaker > doesn't pronounce "François" correctly). I would say that most of the people I've met in this world have tended to do the same sort of thing. It's just that the French (and French-speaking people) are more adamant about insisting that their name be pronounced properly, and tend to get extremely upset if you cannot manage to do so -- all out of proportion to the real gravity of the situation. Moreover, it seems to me that they tend to use French name pronunciations and insist on doing so, to a greater degree than most people. But this doesn't mean that other people don't do the same. > True, they exist. But even in a city like Paris, most of them quite > genuinely have a very hard time with English -- both because their > command is bad, and because they're very underconfident in using it. > Sometimes they do make the effort anyway, but after I'd spent a few > months here, I found that some people refused to talk to me in English > because, they claimed, my French was better than their English. (And > sometimes that was true.) It's far, far worse if you just approach them and start speaking English (unless you know them personally, and you know that they speak English reasonably well), or if you go up to them and ask "Parlez-vous Anglais?" I've found that the majority of French speaking people tend to be more understanding if you instead attempt to first explain that you don't speak French, and give them more time to hear your atrocious accent -- e.g., "Pardon. Je parle en petit pous Français -- parlez-vous Anglais?". More than once I've gotten a reaction that amounted to "Yes, I will speak zee English wiss you, but only if you promise to never again insult my language wiss your tongue." But then there are the hard-core types, especially in local neighborhoods (such as the one in which you might live), which insist that you must speak French in order to exist -- you aren't even a person if you don't speak French. This gets particularly annoying in a commune that is officially dual-language, and they don't even pretend to recognize Flemish as a legally required alternative. > If they do in fact > speak English they'll help out, otherwise they'll wait patiently while > you try to make your meaning clear in broken French... We had this local baker who was really nice in helping me to learn French. His English was excellent (although his wife didn't speak or understand much), but he was always very kind and helpful, and he always encouraged me to try to conduct as much of the transaction in French as I could. Unfortunately, his wife got sick and they sold their shop and moved to France -- Le pain de la pays de ma grand-mére is no more. Contrast this with a different bakery close by, where they clearly speak English, but refuse to do so. Moreover, they get extremely upset if you attempt to use English with them, and rather rude and offensive. They also get rude and offensive if your French is not very good, but not nearly so much as they do if you even ask if they speak English. > English-speakers, on the other hand, are often quite condescending > towards people who speak (or write) bad English. I tend to be much, much more understanding if the other person is not a native English speaker. I tend to be much harsher on people who should know better. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 7:25:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2A037B40A for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LEPHY10665; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:25:17 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:23:26 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:17 AM -0700 2002/05/21, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some > mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. As previously noted, the noun form of "e-mail" or "email" has already been recognized. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 7:31:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673F437B406 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 997287567; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DCF1D89; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:32:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: :At 6:17 AM -0700 2002/05/21, Jamie Bowden wrote: : :> Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some :> mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. : : As previously noted, the noun form of "e-mail" or "email" has :already been recognized. As has the noun 'mail'. I'm sending you a peice of email, and have previously posted several pieces of email to you and the public mailing list. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 7:33:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D2D37B40A; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4LEWqn13811; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:32:52 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521073252.A13690@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexey Dokuchaev , Peter Wemm , Tom Rhodes , Greg Lehey , David O'Brien References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521020941.A12551@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 01:05:11PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Brad Knowles : > At 2:09 AM -0700 2002/05/21, David Schultz wrote: > > > Oh come on. Dictionaries don't determine the language; it's the other > > way around. > > In the English language, that's generally true. However, > dictionary editors usually tend to be fairly conservative, and they > do not document usage of a particular type until it is fairly well > embedded into the actual common use of the language. The most > respected descriptive English language dictionary is the OED, which > is why I used it as my "gold standard". The OED tends to more accurately document the actual language than Webster's, because the Webster people want to dictate how the language ought to work, rather than merely describe it.[1] Nevertheless, every dictionary is inevitably out of sync with respect to the common usage some words. A dictionary is not like a standard for a network protocol; you can't tell several million people that they're wrong just because their preferred spelling isn't in the dictionary. By the way, an amusing book on the English language (and how it got that way) is Bill Bryson's ``Mother Tongue''. I understand he has also published a sequel, although I have not had a chance to read it. [1] This is still better than the situation with the French language, where the decision to (among other things) drop the 's' from 'fenestre' was made by an oligarchy. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 7:35:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546EA37B407 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 07:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4LEZOp51922 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:35:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA97564 ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:35:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:35:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521163524.A97369@lpt.ens.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 07:32:02AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden said on May 21, 2002 at 07:32:02: > On Tue, 21 May 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > > :At 6:17 AM -0700 2002/05/21, Jamie Bowden wrote: > : > :> Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some > :> mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. > : > : As previously noted, the noun form of "e-mail" or "email" has > :already been recognized. > > As has the noun 'mail'. I'm sending you a peice of email, and have > previously posted several pieces of email to you and the public mailing > list. Are you serious? Agreed, "sending you a mail" is wrong, but "a piece of mail" sounds like a fragment of a letter, and "a parcel of mail" sounds like a box of letters, and I've never heard anyone using either of those expressions. Normal usage is "sending you mail" or "sending you a {letter/packet/whatever} by mail." As for "sending you an email", that's also normal usage, cited explicitly by Merriam-Webster, which is to American English what the OED is to British English, which is fine since this word did originate in the US. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 8: 2:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8609E37B40F for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 08:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB233FCA9; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:02:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from flynn@localhost) by energyhq.homeip.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4LF2E6M028850; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:02:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:02:14 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:37:10AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:37:10AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Hi, > English language has a tradition of being dictated by usage and not by > authorities. Even in France, there is an attempt to get people to use > "mel" (for "message electronique") or "courriel" (for "courrier > electronique") but most people use the English-sounding "email". Agreed, here (Spain) some people came up with the word "emilio", which is a play between email and the name "Emilio", but almost nobody uses it. The proper naming in spanish is "correo electronico", but I haven't heard anyone use that for ages. Same for software. IIRC you have a word for that in french, "logiciel", yet most french people I know talk about software all the time. Some people think it's bad that we have so many english words for computer-related terms in spanish, and, to get to the point, I agree that it's people who create and modify language, not some institution. I have to admit that our german folks have the advantage here, since they can just join words and make a sentence out of it :-) Also english allows you to turn a noun into a verb (to Hoover, anyone?), which is something you can't do in other languages. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE86mF1nLctrNyFFPERAh5sAJ9UM2AUy5LlO032rRNz4lQu8T0Z/gCfUH4p 5agHgu0zg52HtuzHpYva3P0= =aR/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 8:51:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560D037B409 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 08:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4LFoug4006973; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:50:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with UUCP id g4LFouHB006972; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:50:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4LFoCMl017828; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:50:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.org) Message-Id: <200205211550.g4LFoCMl017828@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Miguel Mendez Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linguistics (Was: ...) References: <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> ; from Miguel Mendez "Tue, 21 May 2002 17:02:14 +0200." Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:50:12 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have to admit that our german folks have the advantage here, since > they can just join words and make a sentence out of it :-) Also english > allows you to turn a noun into a verb (to Hoover, anyone?), which is > something you can't do in other languages. English is great that way. You can verb any noun. :-) M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 9:53:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31CA37B401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id JAA29610 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:53:52 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda29608; Tue May 21 09:53:51 2002 Received: from cwsys.cwsent.com (cwsys2 [10.1.2.1]) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4LGrjeQ007327 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@cwsent.com) Received: from cwsys (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4LGredg026416 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@cwsys.cwsent.com) Message-Id: <200205211653.g4LGredg026416@cwsys.cwsent.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD CDROMs at linuiso.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:53:40 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One of our Oracle DBA's sent me this URL, http://www.linuxiso.org. The FreeBSD CDROMs can be found at http://www.linuxiso.org/distro.php?distro =15. -- Cheers, Phone: 250-387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: 250-387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Email: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, CITS Ministry of Management Services Province of BC FreeBSD UNIX: cy@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 10:15:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4454437B405 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 10:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E983F35; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:15:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:15:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD CDROMs at linuiso.org Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <200205211653.g4LGredg026416@cwsys.cwsent.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020521171525.52E983F35@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 May 2002 at 9:53, Cy Schubert - CITS Open Syste wrote: > One of our Oracle DBA's sent me this URL, http://www.linuxiso.org. The > FreeBSD CDROMs can be found at http://www.linuxiso.org/distro.php?distro=15. That's nice. I like the description found there. However, the related links could use a bit of improvement... ;) -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 11:46:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrami.homeunix.org (cvg-65-27-234-39.cinci.rr.com [65.27.234.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8209F37B409; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by mrami.homeunix.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4LIkD206718; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:46:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:46:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: <20020521144509.X6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 20 May 2002, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > -On [20020520 02:45], Greg 'groggy' Lehey (grog@FreeBSD.org) wrote: > >>> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very > >>> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. > >>> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this > >>> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. > > > >In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the > >opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you > >see this sort of thing from time to time. > > That's what I said. Reread what I wrote again. :) > > Dutch and German hold some of the longest words known in all latin > character based languages. Thank God this is on -chat! Aside from books and groceries, what is the difference between bookstore and grocery store? Marc. -- I telnetted to whitehouse.gov, and all I got was this lousy .signature! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 11:48:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974B537B405 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 11:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LIlmH21301; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:47:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:19:38 +0200 To: Miguel Mendez , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:02 PM +0200 2002/05/21, Miguel Mendez wrote: > IIRC you have a word > for that in french, "logiciel", yet most french people I know talk about > software all the time. Contrariwise, most French-speaking people I know of use the term "logiciel" in French, and if they also speak English, they will use the term "software" in English. However, when talking about more than one piece of software, they will almost always use the term "softwares", which really drives me up a wall. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 12: 6:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA6D37B412 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g4LJ6BO25458 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:06:11 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020521120611.B17376@ehlke.net> References: <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020521144509.X6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020521144509.X6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org>; from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:46:12PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:46:12PM -0400, Marc Ramirez wrote: > > Aside from books and groceries, what is the difference between bookstore > and grocery store? > The level of taxation charged on goods sold. -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 12:12: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrami.homeunix.org (cvg-65-27-234-39.cinci.rr.com [65.27.234.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351ED37B408 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by mrami.homeunix.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4LJBmT06854; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:11:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:11:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Pete Ehlke Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: <20020521120611.B17376@ehlke.net> Message-ID: <20020521151122.C6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:46:12PM -0400, Marc Ramirez wrote: > > > > Aside from books and groceries, what is the difference between bookstore > > and grocery store? > > > The level of taxation charged on goods sold. True, except in Tennessee. Sorry, Tennessee! Marc. -- I telnetted to whitehouse.gov, and all I got was this lousy .signature! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 13:15:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D8637B410 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4LK3GH26530; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:03:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > > The real problem is when you are referring to something via an > acronym or initialism, and the acronym/initialism sounds like it > begins with a vowel, whereas the actual phrase spelled out begins > with a consonant. Take "WWW" for example -- is it "an WWW page" or > "a WWW page"? Clearly, if you were to spell it out, it would be "a > world-wide web page", but how do you deal with the initialism? > To me, WWW begins with a consonant whether it's W-W-W or worldwide web. But the rule is not hard. It depends on the pronunciation. Thus, "a U.N. directive", but "an unidentified source." "A hero", but "an heroic act." "A history book", but "an historical novel". (What makes "historical" begin with a vowel sound here is that the accent is on the second syllable.) "A UPS device", but "an upside-down cake". The only problem occurs when you don't know the pronunciation. Annelise -- Annelise Anderson Author of: FreeBSD: An Open-Source Operating System for Your PC Available from: BSDmall.com and amazon.com Book Website: http://www.bittreepress.com/FreeBSD/introbook/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 13:45:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBAA37B406 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Cerberus.my.domain ([66.177.48.43]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020521204510.QMRO20219.sccrmhc03.attbi.com@Cerberus.my.domain> for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:45:10 +0000 Received: from Cerberus (Cerberus.Bar [127.0.0.1]) by Cerberus.my.domain (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g4LKlSL54990 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:47:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wazm@Cerberus) Message-Id: <200205212047.g4LKlSL54990@Cerberus.my.domain> To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: Message from Tony Finch of "Tue, 21 May 2002 12:29:55 BST." <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:47:28 -0400 From: "S. Gwizdak " Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Knuth already did -- http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.htm > > I consider Knuth to be authoritative on matters relating to > > computer science. I do not consider him to be authoritative on > > matters relating to the use of the English language. When this use > > is recognized and recommended by the Oxford English Dictionary, I > > might consider it -- but not before. > I have an Oxford Encyclopaedic Dictionary from 1991 that lists email as > the primary usage. I expect the same to be true for the full dictionary, > but I don't have convenient access to a copy. I have access to the OED: email[2]: Colloq. shortening of electronic mail s.v. ELECTRONIC a. e-mail (verb): trans. To send by electronic mail; to communicate with (a person) by electronic mail. Also intr., to establish contact by electronic mail. It should be noted that email was first seen in print in 1982, whereas e-mail showed up in 1987. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 14:14:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B933437B40E for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0213.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.213] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AGx4-000095-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:13:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEAB86F.2D874846@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:13:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:21 AM -0700 2002/05/21, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > How about we just nitpick your grammar instead? you wouldn't say "I'm > > sending you an mail," and it's just as inappropriate a usage with > > reference to electronic mail. > > > > Somewhere, hiding in this message, is a misspelling or grammatical error, > > as is customary. > > Nah, here Rahul is actually correct. You use "an e-mail" or "an > email" either way, because of the a/an issue with the following word > beginning with a consonant vs. a vowel. > > The real problem is when you are referring to something via an > acronym or initialism, and the acronym/initialism sounds like it > begins with a vowel, whereas the actual phrase spelled out begins > with a consonant. Take "WWW" for example -- is it "an WWW page" or > "a WWW page"? Clearly, if you were to spell it out, it would be "a > world-wide web page", but how do you deal with the initialism? It's pronunciation dependent, actually. The rule is really "a pronounced vowel". That's why we have "an hour" and "an SCO employee". Since "WWW" begins with a pronounced consonant, it's "a WWW page". Proper grammer would probably be "a page on the WWW", though... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 14:15:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822AA37B40B for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0213.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.213] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AGyP-00028U-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 14:15:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEAB8C4.C0E904A4@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:14:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some > mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. "Verbing nouns weirds language"? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 15:42:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB2E37B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5180A75B2; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EA11D91; Tue, 21 May 2002 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c In-Reply-To: <3CEAB8C4.C0E904A4@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: :Jamie Bowden wrote: :> Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some :> mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. :"Verbing nouns weirds language"? I find wonderful irony in computer people arguing for poor grammar. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 16: 1:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BE237B408 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LN15Y24673; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:01:05 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020521151122.C6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> References: <20020521151122.C6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:41:48 +0200 To: Marc Ramirez , Pete Ehlke From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:11 PM -0400 2002/05/21, Marc Ramirez wrote: >> > Aside from books and groceries, what is the difference between bookstore >> > and grocery store? >> > >> The level of taxation charged on goods sold. > > True, except in Tennessee. Sorry, Tennessee! Yeah. In Tennessee, there *is* no different between a grocery store and a bookstore, because there are no stores that sell only books. BTW -- I have the right to dis Tennessee because I was born there, and most of my family lives there. Those of you who don't either have a lot of family there or are currently or have previously lived there -- you better watch out! If you don't, I'll sick Tipper on you! ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 16: 1:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E585637B40F for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LN1CY24825; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:01:12 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:43:56 +0200 To: Annelise Anderson , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:03 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Annelise Anderson wrote: > "A UPS device", but "an upside-down cake". Ahh, but it would be "an uninteruptible power supply", so I would argue that it should instead be "An UPS", although when you are talking about the parcel delivery service UPS, you would probably say "A UPS delivery person". -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 16:38:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC5037B40C for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4LNcBT19076 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:38:11 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 01:38:08 +0200 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, Found this from : MS Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Microsoft | Posted by timothy on Mon 20 May 10:34PM from the so-bad-we-can't-display-it dept. guacamolefoo writes: "It was recently reported in eWeek that "A senior Microsoft Corp. executive told a federal court last week that sharing information with competitors could damage national security and even threaten the U.S. war effort in Afghanistan. He later acknowledged that some Microsoft code was so flawed it could not be safely disclosed." (Emphasis added.) The follow up from Microsoft is even better: As a result of the flaws, Microsoft has asked the court to allow a "national security" carve-out from the requirement that any code or API's be made public. Microsoft has therefore taken the position that their code is so bad that it must kept secret to keep people from being killed by it. Windows - the Pinto of the 21st century." The story that they were linking to is at . Now, who else thinks that we should take this opportunity to file charges of high treason against Bill Gates, Paul Allen, and other senior members of Microsoft management, because through their actions "very grave harm to national security interests" would result if the source code were opened? Now, who else thinks that this is yet another ruse by Microsoft, and that what we should really try to do is catch them in their biggest and most blatent example of perjury, and catch them as they majorly shit their pants and do the biggest and fastest volte-face the world has ever seen, once the criminal charges are filed? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 17: 9:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2549637B40A for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.245.130.219.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.130.219] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AJgk-0003F8-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:08:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:03 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > "A UPS device", but "an upside-down cake". > > Ahh, but it would be "an uninteruptible power supply", so I would > argue that it should instead be "An UPS", although when you are > talking about the parcel delivery service UPS, you would probably say > "A UPS delivery person". Only twinks pronounce "UPS" as "oops" and "SCO" as "scoh". You are supposed to pronounce the letters of acronyms of three letters or less. More than three letters depends on whether they are pronouncible (e.g. RAID, RADAR, UNICEF, LASER, etc. vs. TANSTAAFL, CCITT, etc.). Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know that... ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 17:12:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B403337B40A for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.245.130.219.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.130.219] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AJk2-0007lj-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:12:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEAE254.B16C10BE@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:12:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify ClosedSource References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: [ ... ] There are plenty of nations which have achieved natianl security through national obscurity. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 17:30: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E0337B406 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M0TTH09559; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:29:29 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 02:29:29 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:08 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > Only twinks pronounce "UPS" as "oops" and "SCO" as "scoh". You are > supposed to pronounce the letters of acronyms of three letters or > less. More than three letters depends on whether they are pronouncible > (e.g. RAID, RADAR, UNICEF, LASER, etc. vs. TANSTAAFL, CCITT, etc.). My first "real" employer (after college) was the Defense Communications Agency (DCA). They later changed their name to the Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA). We had an entire acronym dictionary, and I think I might still have my copy around here somewhere. We had U-P-S devices on some of our servers, although some people pronounced the word as "uh-ps". We also used some SCO machines on certain projects, and taking our clue from SCO Federal Sales, most of us pronounced it as "skoh". As for the rest, well I could find our acronym dictionary and drop it on your head, but that's the sort of thing that I tend to reserve for my worst enemies. ;-) > Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know that... ;^). No, that's Etats-Unie, or so I'm told. Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere near the US. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 17:31: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D25DC37B40C for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M0UgY00367; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:30:42 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CEAE254.B16C10BE@mindspring.com> References: <3CEAE254.B16C10BE@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 02:30:49 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify ClosedSource Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:12 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > There are plenty of nations which have achieved natianl security > through national obscurity. 8-). So far as they know. Even then, only for a while. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 18:14: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.gigguardian.com (vven-216.sjc.ca.bbnow.net [24.219.11.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837F537B403 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 18:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vhm3@localhost) by hades.gigguardian.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4M1D4e23059; Tue, 21 May 2002 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vhm3@hades.gigguardian.com) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip McClure To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020521180055.D98860-100000@hades.gigguardian.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Brad, I read this one late last night on Slashdot as well. I really can't say that I'm surprised that M$ is trying to use this as a crutch to keep the US government from forcing the opening of the code. However - if it is so dangerously flawed, how can the US govt. keep running this on publicly available systems? Now that the knowledge is out there, in the Black Hat community, as well as nations which are less than frioendly to the US, isn't this an open invitation to attempt to bring the US Govt systems to their knees? Let alone various financial institutions? Honestly, I think this is truly a pathetic attempt on M$'s part. Brad, I whole heartedly agree with you, that this is a breach of national security on the part of Micro$oft. Not only for the US govt, but also that of other governments & institutions where peoples lives depend on the protection of sensitive data. For many many years, Micro$oft has thumbed their noses at security. Now, it's coming full circle, and going to slam the bunch of them in the face. Just my less than $0.02 worth... Chip - ----- Chip McClure Sr. Unix Administrator GigGuardian, Inc. http://www.gigguardian.com/ - ----- On Wed, 22 May 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > Folks, > > Found this from > : > > MS Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source > Microsoft | Posted by timothy on Mon 20 May 10:34PM > from the so-bad-we-can't-display-it dept. > > guacamolefoo writes: "It was recently reported in eWeek that "A > senior Microsoft Corp. executive told a federal court last week that > sharing information with competitors could damage national security > and even threaten the U.S. war effort in Afghanistan. He later > acknowledged that some Microsoft code was so flawed it could not be > safely disclosed." (Emphasis added.) The follow up from Microsoft is > even better: As a result of the flaws, Microsoft has asked the court > to allow a "national security" carve-out from the requirement that > any code or API's be made public. Microsoft has therefore taken the > position that their code is so bad that it must kept secret to keep > people from being killed by it. Windows - the Pinto of the 21st > century." > > > The story that they were linking to is at > . > > > Now, who else thinks that we should take this opportunity to file > charges of high treason against Bill Gates, Paul Allen, and other > senior members of Microsoft management, because through their actions > "very grave harm to national security interests" would result if the > source code were opened? > > Now, who else thinks that this is yet another ruse by Microsoft, > and that what we should really try to do is catch them in their > biggest and most blatent example of perjury, and catch them as they > majorly shit their pants and do the biggest and fastest volte-face > the world has ever seen, once the criminal charges are filed? > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iQA/AwUBPOrwoJuKtP8CSC69EQKiLwCfa2Joe78EQm7yn9CNVz46R/SBlCsAoIww 7prLbAv3Vy/MXkPkpMDTmUpn =ukvn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 18:59:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207C937B40B for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 18:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DF5FA81341; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:28:54 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:28:54 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 13:47:43 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:30 PM +0200 2002/05/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> You'll be surprised at the number of foreign words in common use in >> French. From English, there's "weekend", "stop" (in road signs), >> "ok", and other examples I can't recall offhand; and among technical >> terms, "CD" (in French it should have been "DC" but isn't -- with >> "DVD" there's no problem), internet, web, login, etc. There are also >> coinages you won't find in English, like "footing" (soccer), "fooding" >> (roughly, the art of eating) and so on. Admittedly the French often >> do mutilate foreign words when they import them, but that's the >> people, not the academie. >> I've noticed French people who can >> pronounce "Hubbard" quite nicely when speaking English, will say >> something like "oobaarh" when speaking French. > > That's because the pronunciation of the same word is different in > the two languages. That presupposes that pronunciation of words is a function of the language spoken. For words which don't belong to the language, this doesn't make any sense. > My wife and I have kept our names, because both of us are > professionals and we have certain affiliations and reputations that > we've built up over the years with those names. In the US, it didn't > matter so much whether we used her name ("Geyer") or mine, because > most people could pronounce and spell them roughly equally well. > Moreover, they could deal with the concept of two people being > married and living at the same address, but not having the same last > name. > > However, over here, we tend to use her name a lot more. Instead > of saying the proper "Guy-ur", they say something more like > "Zhie-air", but it's close enough. But the way they mangle "Knowles" > is just unbelievable. They can't spell it, either. In addition, > unless you want to go into a thirty minute expose as to how two > people could be married, living together, and yet not have the same > last name, you just don't really bother even trying to correct them > when they call you "Monsieur Zhie-air", even though she complains > every time that you respond positively to this usage that you are not > her father, and therefore you do not have the right to use that name > that way. I find this surprising. This must be something to do with the French Belgians. In France, women don't get the name of their husband. Yes, they're allowed to use it, and almost invariably do, but you'll notice the difference between "Helen Smith née Jones" and "Yvonne Belmont épouse Dupont". My wife is French, and we got married in Germany, where they have a book of rules. Their book of rules stated that my wife was not allowed to take my name, and no proof we could give them would convince them of the contrary. After something like 11 years of marriage they finally found a solution, but by that time we were leaving anyway. > French-speaking people are so damn snooty sometimes. > Occasionally you will run into one that doesn't speak English but > will still be friendly and as helpful as possible, but if you don't > speak French it seems that most often you will run into people who > take a "But you must speak French in order to exist!" type attitude. Again, this is possibly more the case in Bruxelles than in France. The worst thing you can do is speak Flemish to them. In France, I've frequently spoken to people in French and been answered in English. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 19: 4:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C40E37B401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 19:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9365781341; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:34:15 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:34:15 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Subject: French words (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522113415.B26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521105107.D71209@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020521105107.D71209@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 10:51:07 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brad Knowles said on May 21, 2002 at 10:18:58: >> At 7:57 PM -0700 2002/05/20, David O'Brien wrote: >> >>> (Of course, ``email'' has been a familiar >>> word in France, Germany, and the Netherlands much longer than in England >>> --- but for an entirely different reason.) >> >> Indeed, for precisely this reason, I recommend that we *avoid* >> the usage recommended by Knuth. It's one thing to adopt a word from >> another language and to use it in much the same sense, it's quite >> another to adopt a word with the same spelling (and perhaps >> pronunciation), but with quite a different meaning -- especially when >> you are cognizant of the contrary meaning in the other language(s). > > Sorry, what's the contrary meaning? In France, today, at least, > "email" means the same thing it does in the US or the UK. Well, "émail" still means "enamel". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 19:11:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165B237B406 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 19:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B6BF781341; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:41:44 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:41:44 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Unidentifiable language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522114144.C26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 17:08:39 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know > that... ;^). Where's that? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 19:13: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C61C37B40D for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 19:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 73BC381466; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:43:03 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:43:03 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 2:29:29 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:08 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know that... ;^). > > No, that's Etats-Unie, or so I'm told. > > Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in > Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere > near the US. ;-) Well, "United States" is not unique. There are two sets in North America alone. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 19:15:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDB537B405 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 19:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 95CD78148C; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:45:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:45:43 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Marc Ramirez Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Storing things (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522114543.E26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020520084354.GP44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020521144509.X6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020521144509.X6231-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 14:46:12 -0400, Marc Ramirez wrote: > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > >> -On [20020520 02:45], Greg 'groggy' Lehey (grog@FreeBSD.org) wrote: >>>>> It is not personal preference. The compound noun rules are very >>>>> explicit on things like this. A file system is a system of files. >>>>> People have just concatenated the two words to form a noun, but this >>>>> behaviour is actually more common in Dutch and German. >>> >>> In German at any rate, and I suspect in Dutch as well, the rule is the >>> opposite: "Dateisystem" is correct, "Datei System" is wrong (but you >>> see this sort of thing from time to time. >> >> That's what I said. Reread what I wrote again. :) >> >> Dutch and German hold some of the longest words known in all latin >> character based languages. > > Thank God this is on -chat! > > Aside from books and groceries, what is the difference between > bookstore and grocery store? Well, for one thing, "grocery" and "store" occur in the OED, while "bookstore" doesn't. Also, you can't store groceries as long as you store books. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 19:55:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F4737B414 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 19:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a006.otenet.gr [212.205.215.6]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M2tdZQ020194; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M2tcM8000566; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:38 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4M2tZ4u000565; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:35 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:34 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Message-ID: <20020522025534.GB386@hades.hell.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-22 01:38, Brad Knowles wrote: > MS Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source > Microsoft | Posted by timothy on Mon 20 May 10:34PM > from the so-bad-we-can't-display-it dept. > > guacamolefoo writes: "It was recently reported in eWeek that "A > senior Microsoft Corp. executive told a federal court last week that > sharing information with competitors could damage national security > and even threaten the U.S. war effort in Afghanistan. He later > acknowledged that some Microsoft code was so flawed it could not be > safely disclosed." (Emphasis added.) So why not fix the code, instead of using it as an excuse for keeping things secret, especially when a court asks about it? ;) Sounds like a very silly excuse to me. -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 20: 1:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F00537B407 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a006.otenet.gr [212.205.215.6]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M31NZQ023403; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:01:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M31LM8000625; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:01:21 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4M319xF000620; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:01:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 06:01:08 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020522030108.GC386@hades.hell.gr> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020521170214.A28301@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-21 17:02, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:37:10AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > English language has a tradition of being dictated by usage and not by > > authorities. Even in France, there is an attempt to get people to use > > "mel" (for "message electronique") or "courriel" (for "courrier > > electronique") but most people use the English-sounding "email". > > Agreed, here (Spain) some people came up with the word "emilio", which > is a play between email and the name "Emilio", but almost nobody uses > it. The proper naming in spanish is "correo electronico", but I haven't > heard anyone use that for ages. Same for software. IIRC you have a word > for that in french, "logiciel", yet most french people I know talk about > software all the time. The opposite happens here, in Greece, with the words for 'hardware' and 'software'. Hardware is commonly referred to as "eeleeko" (yliko, a Greek word that means 'material') and software as "logeesmeeko" (logismiko, vaguely reminiscent of "logos", the ancient Greek word for "logic"). Still, everyone uses "email", both in print and speech a lot more than the equivalent phrase, "electronic message". -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 20:23:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96BD37B406 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a006.otenet.gr [212.205.215.6]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M3N7ZQ005252; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:23:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M3M1M8000831; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:22:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4M3JlIE000804; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:19:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 06:19:46 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020522031946.GE386@hades.hell.gr> References: <3CEAB8C4.C0E904A4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-21 15:43, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Tue, 21 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > :Jamie Bowden wrote: > :> Except that I would never 'send you a mail' either. I would post some > :> mail to you, or send you a piece of mail, or send a parcel of mail. > > :"Verbing nouns weirds language"? > > I find wonderful irony in computer people arguing for poor grammar. On the other hand, my favorites are always quotes from posts that comment on poor grammar, while including a few `proof of concept' mistakes at the same time :) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 22: 4: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E18F37B401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 22:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-133-236.dial.proxad.net [62.147.133.236]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46DA399 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 07:04:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 368 invoked by uid 1001); 22 May 2002 05:03:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:03:50 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know that... ;^). > > No, that's Etats-Unie, or so I'm told. Etats-Unis. > Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in > Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere > near the US. ;-) No, Bruxelles is the capital of the UE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:18:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8B837B404 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17APSE-0002AZ-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:18:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB381B.AB516BBC@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:18:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip McClure Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source References: <20020521180055.D98860-100000@hades.gigguardian.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I find it all incredibly amusing. If someone figures out how to exploit the bug, now that it's been "mentioned", then... Microsoft was right: disclosure results in exploits, and the source code is the most blatant possible disclosure If someone doesn't figure out how to exploit the bug, now that it's been "mentioned", then... Microsoft was right: it's only the non-publication of the source code itself which has saved us all Heads, I win, tails, you lose. 8-) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:22:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858D837B4A7; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17APUq-0003rh-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:21:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB38BD.CF2EEE92@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:20:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unidentifiable language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114144.C26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 17:08:39 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know > > that... ;^). > > Where's that? You're soaking in it now. 8-). It's how someone who tries to pronounce three letter acronyms would probably have to pronounce "USA". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:23: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815A737B4AE; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17APWO-0004v9-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:22:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:22:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Well, "United States" is not unique. There are two sets in North > America alone. Since you can't mean Canada, because of that whole Quebec thing, you must mean the states above and below the Manson-Nixon line. Er, Mason-Dixon line. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:27:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9295137B434 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 027368163C; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:57:02 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:57:01 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unidentifiable language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522155701.D45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114144.C26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB38BD.CF2EEE92@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3CEB38BD.CF2EEE92@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 23:20:45 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 17:08:39 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> Even someone who learned English in the "Ooh sah" should know >>> that... ;^). >> >> Where's that? > > You're soaking in it now. > > 8-). > > It's how someone who tries to pronounce three letter acronyms > would probably have to pronounce "USA". It's also a rough pronunciation of the French for "Where's that" ("ou ça?") That's why I wrote "unidentifiable language" :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:27:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C4137B400 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17APay-00000J-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:27:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB3A3B.CF62340C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:27:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source References: <20020522025534.GB386@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > So why not fix the code, instead of using it as an excuse for keeping > things secret, especially when a court asks about it? ;) > > Sounds like a very silly excuse to me. When you fix design flaws, APIs change. It would require recompiling everything. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:28:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F4A37B411 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C649A816B9; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:58:14 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:58:14 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 23:22:22 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Well, "United States" is not unique. There are two sets in North >> America alone. > > Since you can't mean Canada, because of that whole Quebec thing, > you must mean the states above and below the Manson-Nixon line. > > Er, Mason-Dixon line. Nope. "The United States of Mexico". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:31:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD23937B410; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17APeT-0002IC-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:31:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB3B13.B151F1B9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:30:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unidentifiable language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114144.C26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB38BD.CF2EEE92@mindspring.com> <20020522155701.D45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > It's also a rough pronunciation of the French for "Where's that" ("ou > =E7a?") That's why I wrote "unidentifiable language" :-) Cool. A recursive pun that exits after three iterations. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:33:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAA637B413; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17APgQ-0003XC-00; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:33:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:32:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 23:22:22 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Well, "United States" is not unique. There are two sets in North > >> America alone. > > > > Since you can't mean Canada, because of that whole Quebec thing, > > you must mean the states above and below the Manson-Nixon line. > > > > Er, Mason-Dixon line. > > Nope. "The United States of Mexico". Continental North America. Geopolitically, they are split between North and Central America. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:45:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F1337B412 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-134-198.dial.proxad.net [62.147.134.198]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA19CAB442 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 08:45:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 918 invoked by uid 1001); 22 May 2002 06:44:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:44:17 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 22, 2002 at 11:28:54: > > > French-speaking people are so damn snooty sometimes. > > Occasionally you will run into one that doesn't speak English but > > will still be friendly and as helpful as possible, but if you don't > > speak French it seems that most often you will run into people who > > take a "But you must speak French in order to exist!" type attitude. > > Again, this is possibly more the case in Bruxelles than in France. > The worst thing you can do is speak Flemish to them. On the other hand, in Antwerp practically nobody speaks French. Seems funny to me that a nation so tiny can be so sharply divided in language... The Belgians have at least one major improvement in the French language to their credit: they have sensible words for numbers above 69. In France, 70 is sixty-ten (soixante-dix), 71 is sixty-eleven, 80 is four-twenties, 90 is four-twenties-ten, 99 is four-twenties-ten-nine. Surely this situation is something the Academie Française should have been concerned about long ago, but no -- the French find the Belgian number system (70=septante, etc) hilarious. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:51:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD5337B414 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BEFE0816B9; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:21:44 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:21:44 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522162144.F45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 23:32:44 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Tuesday, 21 May 2002 at 23:22:22 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>> Well, "United States" is not unique. There are two sets in North >>>> America alone. >>> >>> Since you can't mean Canada, because of that whole Quebec thing, >>> you must mean the states above and below the Manson-Nixon line. >>> >>> Er, Mason-Dixon line. >> >> Nope. "The United States of Mexico". > > Continental North America. Geopolitically, they are split > between North and Central America. Where does that definition come from? I thought North America went down as far as Panama. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 0:40:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tesla.foo.is (tesla.reverse-bias.org [217.151.166.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D919437B40E for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 00:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from there (eniac.foo.is [192.168.1.25]) by tesla.foo.is (Postfix) with SMTP id 630882744; Wed, 22 May 2002 07:40:21 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Baldur Gislason To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:40:20 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020522074021.630882744@tesla.foo.is> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And all those .gov sites running Windows were defaced... great security in that ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 0:46: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BA337B411; Wed, 22 May 2002 00:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0100.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.100] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AQof-0006Rx-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 00:45:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEB4C8A.150E16F@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:45:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> <20020522162144.F45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Continental North America. Geopolitically, they are split > > between North and Central America. > > Where does that definition come from? The world atlas; here's an online reference: http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/centralamerica.html > I thought North America went down as far as Panama. So did the rest of us, until the US gave the canal back, and then took Manual Noriega back, too. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 0:57:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126A337B410 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 00:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 17F9E8164B; Wed, 22 May 2002 17:27:36 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:27:36 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522172736.G45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> <20020522162144.F45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB4C8A.150E16F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEB4C8A.150E16F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 0:45:14 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> Continental North America. Geopolitically, they are split >>> between North and Central America. >> >> Where does that definition come from? > > The world atlas; here's an online reference: > > http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/centralamerica.html Central America? That's a continent? >> I thought North America went down as far as Panama. > > So did the rest of us, until the US gave the canal back, and > then took Manual Noriega back, too. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with geography. I googled and followed the first link: http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/North_America/Mexico/. Interesting stuff in there, but I think the URL says it all. And yes, there's a http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Central_America/ as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:33:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2329B37B41C; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M8XUT01981; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:33:30 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:28:38 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:28 AM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > That presupposes that pronunciation of words is a function of the > language spoken. For words which don't belong to the language, this > doesn't make any sense. I disagree. So long as the word appears to be pronounceable in a particular language, then I believe that most people who speak that language will probably try to pronounce it according to the customs of their native language. The only exception to this rule would be if they happen to speak the language from which the word comes and recognize it, or if they have otherwise obtained information to lead them to believe that this particular word should be pronounced according to "foreign" rules. There is a Japanese word for thank you. How do you think that it is properly spelled using what they call "romaji", and how is it pronounced? > I find this surprising. This must be something to do with the French > Belgians. In France, women don't get the name of their husband. Yes, > they're allowed to use it, and almost invariably do, but you'll notice > the difference between "Helen Smith née Jones" and "Yvonne Belmont > épouse Dupont". My wife is French, and we got married in Germany, > where they have a book of rules. Their book of rules stated that my > wife was not allowed to take my name, and no proof we could give them > would convince them of the contrary. After something like 11 years of > marriage they finally found a solution, but by that time we were > leaving anyway. We got married in the US, precisely to avoid this kind of crap. Frankly, we have no idea what the book of rules for Belgium specifies as to who may use what name. So far as I know, they look at us as a married American couple, and may perhaps apply some particular view as to how they think that Americans normally handle the name issue. > Again, this is possibly more the case in Bruxelles than in France. > The worst thing you can do is speak Flemish to them. To those that speak both French and English, that is generally true. To those that speak both French and Flemish but not English, that is obviously false. The problem is, you don't know, a priori, what other languages the person may speak, and you don't know if trying either English or Flemish as the second alternative is going to offend them. > In France, I've > frequently spoken to people in French and been answered in English. I've only visited more tourist-friendly areas in France, but the areas of France that I have been to I have encountered fewer language problems than in some areas of Belgium (where I've been to more off-the-beaten-track areas). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:34: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374F737B40C; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M8XaT02114; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:33:36 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522113415.B26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521105107.D71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522113415.B26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:29:50 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French words (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:34 AM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Sorry, what's the contrary meaning? In France, today, at least, >> "email" means the same thing it does in the US or the UK. > > Well, "émail" still means "enamel". And since e-mail frequently loses accents, you should not count on that being the only distinction between the two words. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:34:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3457737B413; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M8XfT02217; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:33:41 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:33:46 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:22 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > Er, Mason-Dixon line. Which is a complete mis-nomer, because it is not a proper division between the states which were in the Union and the states which were in the Confederacy. Why do you think that West Virginia was formed? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:34:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A2337B412; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M8XnT02360; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:33:50 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:40:20 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:44 AM +0200 2002/05/22, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > On the other hand, in Antwerp practically nobody speaks French. Seems > funny to me that a nation so tiny can be so sharply divided in > language... True enough. > The Belgians have at least one major improvement in the French > language to their credit: they have sensible words for numbers above > 69. In France, 70 is sixty-ten (soixante-dix), 71 is sixty-eleven, 80 > is four-twenties, 90 is four-twenties-ten, 99 is > four-twenties-ten-nine. Whereas in Belgium, we have septante, quatre-vingts, and nonante. They fixed seventy and ninety, but for whatever bizarre reason, they left eighty alone. > Surely this situation is something the > Academie Française should have been concerned about long ago, but no > -- the French find the Belgian number system (70=septante, etc) > hilarious. Any time that some French-speaking person starts ragging on the English language, I usually just ask them what the word for "ninety" is in French, and it helps if we had recently been talking about differences between Belgian/Wallonian French versus French/French. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:51:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6ED37B40A for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D6B2C8163C; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:20:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:20:58 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522182058.H45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 9:40:20 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:44 AM +0200 2002/05/22, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> On the other hand, in Antwerp practically nobody speaks French. Seems >> funny to me that a nation so tiny can be so sharply divided in >> language... > > True enough. > >> The Belgians have at least one major improvement in the French >> language to their credit: they have sensible words for numbers above >> 69. In France, 70 is sixty-ten (soixante-dix), 71 is sixty-eleven, 80 >> is four-twenties, 90 is four-twenties-ten, 99 is >> four-twenties-ten-nine. > > Whereas in Belgium, we have septante, quatre-vingts, and nonante. > > They fixed seventy and ninety, but for whatever bizarre reason, > they left eighty alone. Right, I remember something like that. In Switzerland they have octante as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:52:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9094937B40B; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4M8qep08049 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:52:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA48055 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:52:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:52:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:40:20AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 22, 2002 at 09:40:20: > At 8:44 AM +0200 2002/05/22, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Whereas in Belgium, we have septante, quatre-vingts, and nonante. > > They fixed seventy and ninety, but for whatever bizarre reason, > they left eighty alone. The version I heard (from some French chap) was that the Belgians say "huitante" and the Swiss say "octante", or perhaps the other way around. But I bow to your knowledge :) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 1:59:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C38537B40A for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 01:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 19E9D816B7; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:29:14 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:29:14 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 9:28:38 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:28 AM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> That presupposes that pronunciation of words is a function of the >> language spoken. For words which don't belong to the language, this >> doesn't make any sense. > > I disagree. So long as the word appears to be pronounceable in a > particular language, then I believe that most people who speak that > language will probably try to pronounce it according to the customs > of their native language. Assuming they recognize the word or its derivation. > The only exception to this rule would be if they happen to speak > the language from which the word comes and recognize it, or if they > have otherwise obtained information to lead them to believe that > this particular word should be pronounced according to "foreign" > rules. Well, that's one common exception. It's certainly not the only one. > There is a Japanese word for thank you. How do you think that > it is properly spelled using what they call "romaji", and how is it > pronounced? I don't know. But if you can't read or write, and you hear the word from a native speaker, how do you pronounce it? >> I find this surprising. This must be something to do with the French >> Belgians. In France, women don't get the name of their husband. Yes, >> they're allowed to use it, and almost invariably do, but you'll notice >> the difference between "Helen Smith née Jones" and "Yvonne Belmont >> épouse Dupont". My wife is French, and we got married in Germany, >> where they have a book of rules. Their book of rules stated that my >> wife was not allowed to take my name, and no proof we could give them >> would convince them of the contrary. After something like 11 years of >> marriage they finally found a solution, but by that time we were >> leaving anyway. > > We got married in the US, precisely to avoid this kind of > crap. That wouldn't (theoretically) have helped you. > Frankly, we have no idea what the book of rules for Belgium > specifies as to who may use what name. I was referring to German interpretations of French law. Theoretically it could have happened to us even if we had been married outside Germany, though in practice we could have been a little better off because the Standesbeamte probably wouldn't have looked the case up in his Big Book. > So far as I know, they look at us as a married American couple, and > may perhaps apply some particular view as to how they think that > Americans normally handle the name issue. Precisely. In Germany it was no different: they applied some particular view as to how they think that French law handles the name issue. Even declarations from the French consulate wouldn't shake their conviction. >> Again, this is possibly more the case in Bruxelles than in France. >> The worst thing you can do is speak Flemish to them. > > To those that speak both French and English, that is generally > true. To those that speak both French and Flemish but not English, > that is obviously false. The problem is, you don't know, a priori, > what other languages the person may speak, and you don't know if > trying either English or Flemish as the second alternative is going > to offend them. That seems to depend on your accent. Speak Flemish to a Walloon with a French accent, and you could be in trouble. I've seen it happen, and the one doing the complaining was a policeman. >> In France, I've frequently spoken to people in French and been >> answered in English. > > I've only visited more tourist-friendly areas in France, but the > areas of France that I have been to I have encountered fewer language > problems than in some areas of Belgium (where I've been to more > off-the-beaten-track areas). My observation is that the French off the beaten track are much friendlier than those in tourist areas. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2: 1: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCDE37B410 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A7307816B7; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:30:52 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:30:52 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 10:52:40 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brad Knowles said on May 22, 2002 at 09:40:20: >> At 8:44 AM +0200 2002/05/22, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> Whereas in Belgium, we have septante, quatre-vingts, and nonante. >> >> They fixed seventy and ninety, but for whatever bizarre reason, >> they left eighty alone. > > The version I heard (from some French chap) was that the Belgians say > "huitante" and the Swiss say "octante", or perhaps the other way > around. But I bow to your knowledge :) I heard it from a French-speaking Belgian. He was bemoaning the fact that, though the numbers in Belgian French were better than those in France, they still didn't go the whole way, and that only the Swiss had got it right. So, shall we move on to German numbers? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:11:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC4337B40E; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4M9B4p12112 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA49338 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:11:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522111104.B47352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:30:52PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 22, 2002 at 18:30:52: > So, shall we move on to German numbers? Anything interesting to say about them? The other languages I know are boringly normal. The only interesting aspect is the similarity of numbers, and many other words, in some Indian languages (Sanskrit origin) and European languages. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:14:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4B337B405; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M9DfT23605; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:13:42 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:12:51 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:29 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> There is a Japanese word for thank you. How do you think that >> it is properly spelled using what they call "romaji", and how is it >> pronounced? > > I don't know. But if you can't read or write, and you hear the word > from a native speaker, how do you pronounce it? I always thought it was "domo origato" or maybe "domo oregato". I looked it up in a Japanes-English-Japanese dictionary last night (for other reasons), and it turns out that the word is apparently properly spelled "doumoarigatou". Now, tell me how you would be inclined to pronounce this word, and whether or not it would be the same as you would be inclined to pronounce either of the two previous examples. > I was referring to German interpretations of French law. > Theoretically it could have happened to us even if we had been married > outside Germany, though in practice we could have been a little better > off because the Standesbeamte probably wouldn't have looked the case > up in his Big Book. Great. Weel, we're not likely to be living in Germany any time soon, and although we moved to Belgium before we got married, we've never run into the Belgian equivalent of your Standesbeamte, so hopefully this should be a moot point for us by now. However, I do feel your pain. > That seems to depend on your accent. Speak Flemish to a Walloon with > a French accent, and you could be in trouble. I've seen it happen, > and the one doing the complaining was a policeman. Yeah, well. Whatever other language I speak, it would be with a "stupid American" accent, so I'm sure that I'd get it wrong no matter what. Which is kind of why I think I'll like learning Dutch (as opposed to Flemish), because if I'm going to automatically "get it wrong" no matter what, I might as well have a little bit of fun tweaking their nose. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:17:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B492337B406; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4M9GwU00995; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:16:58 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:16:58 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:30 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > So, shall we move on to German numbers? Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". Fine for me, because I'm going to have to learn the language anyway, and I am sensitive to changes like this. But when someone tells you that they weigh forty-nine kilos and that they are overweight, that takes a little bit of thinking to work out. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:25:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8189F37B40C; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4M9PWp14772 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:25:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA50293 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:25:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:25:32 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522112532.C47352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:58AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 22, 2002 at 11:16:58: > At 6:30 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > So, shall we move on to German numbers? > > Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say > "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". Somewhat like in older English. It just occurred to me, by the way, that "quatre-vingts" could be translated as "fourscore" which dates to the 13th century. Maybe there's a connection there. > tells you that they weigh forty-nine kilos and that they are > overweight, that takes a little bit of thinking to work out. Depends on their height; for a woman less than 150 cm tall (quite unusual in the Netherlands), perhaps 49 kg seems overweight. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:25:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD0237B401 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E8CD0816BB; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:55:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:55:42 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020522185542.K45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522111104.B47352@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522111104.B47352@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 11:11:04 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 22, 2002 at 18:30:52: >> So, shall we move on to German numbers? > > Anything interesting to say about them? Well, they're backwards, like in Sanskrit. > The other languages I know are boringly normal. The only > interesting aspect is the similarity of numbers, and many other > words, in some Indian languages (Sanskrit origin) and European > languages. Well, Sanskrit is uncannily close to ancient Greek and Latin that it's just not funny, and the numbers are backwards in the same way as German: French English German Sanskrit soixante-trois sixty-three drei-und-sechzig tri:sasti (hyphens in the German to show the individual components only; as we've already established earlier in the thread, nouns get run together in German). Apart from that, it's interesting to note that Sanskrit is closer to the Swiss pronunciation of French numbers :-) soixante sixty sechzig sasti septante seventy siebzig saptati octante eighty achtzig asiti nonante ninety neunzig navati And yes, sorry for the missing diacritical marks in Sanskrit, but I don't have the correct character set handy. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:29:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921C437B400 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B3D818163C; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:59:14 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:59:14 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Yana Lehey Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522185914.L45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 11:12:51 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:29 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> There is a Japanese word for thank you. How do you think that >>> it is properly spelled using what they call "romaji", and how is it >>> pronounced? >> >> I don't know. But if you can't read or write, and you hear the word >> from a native speaker, how do you pronounce it? > > I always thought it was "domo origato" or maybe "domo oregato". > I looked it up in a Japanes-English-Japanese dictionary last night > (for other reasons), and it turns out that the word is apparently > properly spelled "doumoarigatou". Fine. > Now, tell me how you would be inclined to pronounce this word, > and whether or not it would be the same as you would be inclined to > pronounce either of the two previous examples. I would let a Japanese person tell me how to pronounce it. I certainly wouldn't try to derive the pronunciation from an orthography which I know to be quirky unless I had a very good understanding of the quirks. Anyway, I'll let Yana have her say. She's the Japanese speaker in our family. >> I was referring to German interpretations of French law. >> Theoretically it could have happened to us even if we had been >> married outside Germany, though in practice we could have been a >> little better off because the Standesbeamte probably wouldn't have >> looked the case up in his Big Book. > > Great. Weel, we're not likely to be living in Germany any > time soon, and although we moved to Belgium before we got married, > we've never run into the Belgian equivalent of your Standesbeamte, > so hopefully this should be a moot point for us by now. Well, as US citizens you don't have a problem in Germany. It's the French who have the problem. > However, I do feel your pain. It's over now. Maybe I should write it up as a web page. >> That seems to depend on your accent. Speak Flemish to a Walloon with >> a French accent, and you could be in trouble. I've seen it happen, >> and the one doing the complaining was a policeman. > > Yeah, well. Whatever other language I speak, it would be with a > "stupid American" accent, so I'm sure that I'd get it wrong no matter > what. > > Which is kind of why I think I'll like learning Dutch (as opposed > to Flemish), because if I'm going to automatically "get it wrong" no > matter what, I might as well have a little bit of fun tweaking their > nose. But there's so little difference between Dutch and Flemish (apart from the throat disease), and the Dutch are more tolerant. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:30:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6832937B406 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 618E7816B7; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:00:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:00:30 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522190030.M45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 11:16:58 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:30 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> So, shall we move on to German numbers? > > Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say > "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". So do the Germans. Dutch *is* German, remember? > Fine for me, because I'm going to have to learn the language > anyway, and I am sensitive to changes like this. But when someone > tells you that they weigh forty-nine kilos and that they are > overweight, that takes a little bit of thinking to work out. Ah, you mean four and ninety? Yes, I'm used to that, though I still occasionally trip over the sequence. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:32: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EA537B408 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A3EEA816B7; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:01:56 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:01:56 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020522190156.N45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522112532.C47352@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522112532.C47352@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 11:25:32 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brad Knowles said on May 22, 2002 at 11:16:58: >> At 6:30 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> >>> So, shall we move on to German numbers? >> >> Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say >> "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". > > Somewhat like in older English. It just occurred to me, by the way, > that "quatre-vingts" could be translated as "fourscore" which dates to > the 13th century. Maybe there's a connection there. Almost certainly, I would think. It's interesting to note that it came into English after the Norman conquest. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 2:59:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA02E37B404; Wed, 22 May 2002 02:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4M9xop22348 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:59:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA52501 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:59:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:59:50 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522111104.B47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522185542.K45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020522185542.K45715@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:55:42PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 22, 2002 at 18:55:42: > Apart from that, it's interesting to note that Sanskrit is closer to > the Swiss pronunciation of French numbers :-) > > soixante sixty sechzig sasti > septante seventy siebzig saptati > octante eighty achtzig asiti > nonante ninety neunzig navati Interesting. I had a look at the latin numbers, and they're really strikingly similar to Sanskrit, with the notable exception of "one" ("eka" in Sanskrit, which doesn't seem similar to any Western language). Also take "twenty" -- "vimshati" in Sanskrit, very similar to "viginti" in Latin or "vingt" in French, but quite different from the English and German words. (In fact many other English and German numbers -- four, five, hundred, thousand -- seem to have very little resemblance to Latin or Greek, whereas their French equivalents clearly come from Latin and are often similar to Sanskrit.) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 3:27:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E041337B416; Wed, 22 May 2002 03:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4MARaT29529; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:27:36 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522112532.C47352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522112532.C47352@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:13:34 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 AM +0200 2002/05/22, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Somewhat like in older English. It just occurred to me, by the way, > that "quatre-vingts" could be translated as "fourscore" which dates to > the 13th century. Maybe there's a connection there. Sounds like good reasoning. Of course, we dumped things like "four score" many years ago. > Depends on their height; for a woman less than 150 cm tall (quite > unusual in the Netherlands), perhaps 49 kg seems overweight. She's not that short. And she's not 49kg. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 3:27:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9481837B41B; Wed, 22 May 2002 03:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4MARcT29577; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:27:38 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522185914.L45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522185914.L45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:17:04 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Yana Lehey Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:59 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Which is kind of why I think I'll like learning Dutch (as opposed >> to Flemish), because if I'm going to automatically "get it wrong" no >> matter what, I might as well have a little bit of fun tweaking their >> nose. > > But there's so little difference between Dutch and Flemish (apart from > the throat disease), and the Dutch are more tolerant. So sez you. I've been told by Flemish and Dutch speakers alike that the languages are "very" different, and I understand that there's probably as much or more animosity between Dutch vs. Flemish speakers as there is between Belgian/Wallonian French vs. French French speakers, and as there is between Flemish & Belgian/Wallonian French speakers. Let's not even get started on dialects. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 3:27:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7584737B410; Wed, 22 May 2002 03:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4MAReT29654; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522190030.M45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522190030.M45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:20:42 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:00 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say >> "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". > > So do the Germans. Dutch *is* German, remember? Uh, no. It's not. They may be closely related, but they are not the same. I took German lessons while I was in third grade, from a lady down the road who also ran a daycare center. Turns out she was the only member of her family to survive Auschwitz, but I didn't learn that until much later. Before I moved to Belgium, I remembered more German from that year than I've learned French over the past three years. And Dutch still sounds to me like a cat hacking up a hairball. ;-) Moreover, I have friends in the US who are fluent in German, and they tell me they are always screwed up when they hear Dutch, because the words are formed more like German, but the rhythm and word sounds are much more like English -- so they feel like their brain is being split in half. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 5:12:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5C037B40E for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b101.otenet.gr [195.167.121.229]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4MCCKHa003462; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:12:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M8LtM8004306; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:21:55 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4M8Ltcm004305; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:21:55 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:21:54 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Message-ID: <20020522082154.GA4265@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020522025534.GB386@hades.hell.gr> <3CEB3A3B.CF62340C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEB3A3B.CF62340C@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-21 23:27, Terry Lambert wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > So why not fix the code, instead of using it as an excuse for > > keeping things secret, especially when a court asks about it? ;) > > > > Sounds like a very silly excuse to me. > > When you fix design flaws, APIs change. > It would require recompiling everything. Yes, I know. How about "not my problem, but Microsoft's" ? If they want to claim that their products are secure, then they should make the effort that it takes to compile them ;) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 5:12:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4646137B401 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b101.otenet.gr [195.167.121.229]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4MCCKHY003462; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:12:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4M8URM8004350; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:30:28 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4M8URFJ004349; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:30:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:30:27 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Chip McClure , Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Message-ID: <20020522083027.GB4265@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020521180055.D98860-100000@hades.gigguardian.com> <3CEB381B.AB516BBC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEB381B.AB516BBC@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-21 23:18, Terry Lambert wrote: > I find it all incredibly amusing. > > If someone figures out how to exploit the bug, now that it's > been "mentioned", then... > > Microsoft was right: disclosure results in exploits, > and the source code is the most blatant possible > disclosure > > If someone doesn't figure out how to exploit the bug, now that > it's been "mentioned", then... > > Microsoft was right: it's only the non-publication > of the source code itself which has saved us all > > Heads, I win, tails, you lose. Nah, there's a long history of bugs being discovered by `users' who didn't have any access to the source code. Admittedly, some of them had access to assemblers, disassemblers, and similar tools, but hey that's not the source, is it? :) -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 5:26:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.135.138.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B674B37B412 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 17AVBz-00061T-00 (Debian); Wed, 22 May 2002 13:26:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:26:10 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: 007, was Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/renice renice.c Message-ID: <20020522132610.A15952@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162355.g4GNtam63176@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020517142707.A792@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:03:27PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:03:27PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Wilko Bulte writes: > > Of course there is only one 007 > > I count five: Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan. You forgot Casino Royale which had David Niven as the principal James Bond 007, but there were 5 other 007s and a few other Bonds too. It isn't shown on the telly as much as it deserves to be :-) Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ ROCKALL: CYCLONIC 4 BECOMING WEST 5 OR 6, OCCASIONALLY 7 IN WEST. SHOWERS. GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 6:25:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8920637B40B for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4MDOmY18138; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:24:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522132610.A15952@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162355.g4GNtam63176@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020517142707.A792@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20020522132610.A15952@chiark.greenend.org.uk> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:23:18 +0200 To: Tony Finch , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: 007, was Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/renice renice.c Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:26 PM +0100 2002/05/22, Tony Finch wrote: > You forgot Casino Royale which had David Niven as the principal > James Bond 007, but there were 5 other 007s and a few other > Bonds too. It isn't shown on the telly as much as it deserves > to be :-) I saw it a few weeks ago. Basically, all agents working for M were renamed/renumbered to be 007, so as to try to confuse the enemy. Moreover, I believe that a number of additional agents were recruited, and also named/numbered 007. Counting all the people you didn't see on camera, thanks to "Casino Royale", there have been literally hundreds and hundreds of 007s. Unfortunately, the movie wasn't particularly good. IMO, it would be a real waste of airtime to put it on TV. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 6:25:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50C037B409 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4MDOkY18112; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:24:46 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020522082154.GA4265@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020522025534.GB386@hades.hell.gr> <3CEB3A3B.CF62340C@mindspring.com> <20020522082154.GA4265@hades.hell.gr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:20:19 +0200 To: Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:21 AM +0300 2002/05/22, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> When you fix design flaws, APIs change. >> It would require recompiling everything. > > Yes, I know. How about "not my problem, but Microsoft's" ? > If they want to claim that their products are secure, then they should > make the effort that it takes to compile them ;) I think that he means that all the client programs would have to be recompiled, too. Can you imagine forcing all Windows programs that have ever written to be recompiled? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 6:40:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704F837B43E for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-136.wobline.de [212.68.69.144]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4MDe5I13792 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:40:05 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4MDeTo2063290 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:40:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4MDelU9005602 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:40:11 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: WTF: These dealers today Message-ID: <20020522154011.A5575@daemon.tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-RC FreeBSD 4.6-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 3:28PM up 6:38, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, this is not really FreeBSD-related, but at least computer-related, and rather funny (I think): Today, I walked into a computer store (yes, one that specializes in selling computers and computer parts) with the intention to buy an ISA Network Card (Ethernet) for one of my older machines. Looking over the counter, I could see that the shop did in fact have some cheapy cards in stock, which was just fine, as the cheapest thing is just enough for my purpose. So, I told the guy in the shop: "I'd like to buy one of these ISA Network cards", pointing over to them. The dealer walked into the direction where I pouinted - and returned with a PCI card. "No, I need a card for an ISA slot" I told him. He walked away and returned with a PCMCIA card... On the third attempt, he finally gave me what I was wanted. He placed the ISA card he had just fetched next to the PCI card he had left on the counter and said something like: "Umm, now what's the actual difference between these two?" I kindly explained him that an ISA card can be plugged in the slighly older ISA slot (as the name suggests), while PCI cards are used in - who would have guessed it - PCI slots. Bottom line: I wonder if anyone, even someone who has been selling flowers before and cannot even operate a pocket calculator, can these days work in a computer shop. While it is nothing new for me that folks in "big" stores that sell a whole lot of stuff (including computers) often don't have much of a clue, I would have expected that people working in specialized computer shops should at least be familiar with the basics... Hmm, probably I should go to the shop again and ask for a copy of "Sun Windows WC 2010". Probably the guy in the shop would actually look around if they have a copy of that software in stock ;-) Greetings, Nils To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 6:50:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD9F37B40B for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b158.otenet.gr [212.205.244.166]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4MDoEHY014723; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:50:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4MDoDrs001852; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:50:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4MDoC3e001851; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:50:12 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:50:12 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source Message-ID: <20020522135012.GF968@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020522025534.GB386@hades.hell.gr> <3CEB3A3B.CF62340C@mindspring.com> <20020522082154.GA4265@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-22 15:20, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:21 AM +0300 2002/05/22, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >> When you fix design flaws, APIs change. > >> It would require recompiling everything. > > > > Yes, I know. How about "not my problem, but Microsoft's" ? > > If they want to claim that their products are secure, then they should > > make the effort that it takes to compile them ;) > > I think that he means that all the client programs would have to > be recompiled, too. Can you imagine forcing all Windows programs > that have ever written to be recompiled? I know. It's just as bad as it sounds. Maybe more. I am just being a bit cynical because this is something that the BSD users customarily do when they are 'building world' or 'recompiling ports'. -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 8:17:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.gigguardian.com (vven-216.sjc.ca.bbnow.net [24.219.11.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A28137B40E for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vhm3@localhost) by hades.gigguardian.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4MFH1410689; Wed, 22 May 2002 08:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vhm3@hades.gigguardian.com) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:16:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip McClure To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source In-Reply-To: <3CEB381B.AB516BBC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020522081047.F4507-100000@hades.gigguardian.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 21 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > I find it all incredibly amusing. No doubt about that one. Besides being amusing, it's actually rather pathetic as well. For a company like Microsoft to be inventing such lame excuses *not* to open source code, is beyond belief. I wonder what the next excuse is going to be - "My Dog ate the source code", or something along the lines of "Due to the events of Sept 11th, we will be unable to release the source" ... Chip - ----- Chip McClure Sr. Unix Administrator GigGuardian, Inc. http://www.gigguardian.com/ - ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iQA/AwUBPOu2bJuKtP8CSC69EQIh2QCg5awVjcewh9q+xjw1wBmCMaFztEIAoPmo HljkNqr7dXJDWU6wRSaC+UuG =LFQ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 8:50: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A24137B411 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 08:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([68.11.176.217]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020522154959.WBDB3097.lakemtao02.cox.net@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:49:59 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020522104512.019fe728@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:48:19 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: ASP anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been reading about Microsoft's Active Server Pages for producing dynamic content on the Web. What's an equivalent technology on an Open Source server, say FreeBSD running Apache? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 8:52: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9012A37B40A for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 08:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4MFppp90503 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 17:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA74461 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 17:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:51:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ASP anyone? Message-ID: <20020522175151.O47352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020522104512.019fe728@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020522104512.019fe728@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:48:19AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton said on May 22, 2002 at 10:48:19: > I've been reading about Microsoft's Active Server Pages for producing > dynamic content on the Web. What's an equivalent technology on an Open > Source server, say FreeBSD running Apache? PHP? http://www.php.net - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:14:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C332037B409; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by travelers.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02424; Wed, 22 May 2002 13:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:14:14 -0400 (EDT) From: cjc26@cornell.edu X-Sender: cjc26@travelers.mail.cornell.edu To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) In-Reply-To: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Interesting. I had a look at the latin numbers, and they're really > strikingly similar to Sanskrit, Well, yeah, they're related languages. :) They're both descended from Proto-Indo-European. > with the notable exception of "one" > ("eka" in Sanskrit, which doesn't seem similar to any Western > language). Also take "twenty" -- "vimshati" in Sanskrit, very > similar to "viginti" in Latin or "vingt" in French, but quite > different from the English and German words. (In fact many other > English and German numbers -- four, five, hundred, thousand -- seem to > have very little resemblance to Latin or Greek, whereas their French > equivalents clearly come from Latin and are often similar to > Sanskrit.) I think "five" and "hundred" can be explained by Grimm's Law[1] -- /p/, /t/, /k/ in PIE usually became /f/, /th/, /h/ in Proto-Germanic, while PIE /b/, /d/, /g/ became Germanic /p/, /t/, /k/. If anyone's curious, here are the numbers in PIE from one to ten (from Robert Beekes' book "Comparative Indo-European Linguistics") (and sorry about leaving off all the accents that I can't type): PIE Sanskrit Greek Latin Gothic 1 Hoi(H)nos ekas heis unus ains 2 duoh1 dva(u) duo duo twai 3 treies trayas treis tres threis 4 kwetuor catvaras tessares quattuor fidwor 5 penkwe panca pente quinque fimf 6 (s)ueks sas hex sex saihs 7 septm sapta hepta septem sibun 8 h3ekteh3 asta(u) okto octo ahtau 9 (h1)neun nava ennea novem niun 10 dekmt dasha deka decem taihun 20 duidkmti vimshati eikosi viginti twai tigjus [1] Yes, the same Grimm who published all those fairy tales. -- Cliff Crawford :: cjc26 at cornell dot edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:23:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076EE37B408; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4MHNZp07651 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:23:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA79950 ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:23:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:23:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: cjc26@cornell.edu Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cjc26@cornell.edu on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:14:14PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org cjc26@cornell.edu said on May 22, 2002 at 13:14:14: > > Well, yeah, they're related languages. :) They're both descended from > Proto-Indo-European. They undoubtedly have some sort of link, but is this "proto-Indo-European" some sort of guess or reconstruction, or is there actual evidence for it somewhere? How do people arrive at "Hoi(H)nos" and "h3ekteh3" (how do you pronounce those "3"s?) in PIE? Who are the people who spoke it -- the Aryans who are believed to have originated from around the Caspian Sea? If so, how do we know anything about their language -- is there any kind of record they left behind at all? Yes, I suppose I could try look up the book you cited, but I'm lazy :) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:26:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FFB37B400; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0319.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.64] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZsu-0002yx-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:26:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEBD4BB.722F5203@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:26:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit:src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > There is a Japanese word for thank you. How do you think that it > is properly spelled using what they call "romaji", and how is it > pronounced? "Arigato". (Everyone knows "Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto") The more interesting one is the formal: "Domo arigato gozaimashita" The interesting part is that "shita" is pronounced "shta". Japanese is a much easier language to learn from Romaji texts if you "happen" to have the full set of "Mangaijin" (pun on "Magazine for foreigners"), and if you happen to know that it's SOV rather than SVO order for most sentences. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:28:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C8D37B40C; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0319.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.64] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZuk-0005Vd-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:28:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEBD52C.6BB03898@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:28:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alphaclock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:22 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > Which is a complete mis-nomer, because it is not a proper > division between the states which were in the Union and the states > which were in the Confederacy. Why do you think that West Virginia > was formed? A secret kabal refusing to be from the home state of the CIA? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:30:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1ADC37B400; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0319.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.64] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZw4-0007Ok-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:30:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEBD57E.39BB1B4B@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:29:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> <20020522162144.F45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB4C8A.150E16F@mindspring.com> <20020522172736.G45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 0:45:14 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Continental North America. Geopolitically, they are split > >>> between North and Central America. > >> > >> Where does that definition come from? > > > > The world atlas; here's an online reference: > > > > http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/centralamerica.html > > Central America? That's a continent? Read the posting to which you were originally replying. It's a geopolitical division. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:31:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C137F37B406 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0319.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.64] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AZx9-0001AZ-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:31:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEBD5C1.D458ABA7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:30:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: /.: Microsoft Cites National Security to Justify Closed Source References: <20020522025534.GB386@hades.hell.gr> <3CEB3A3B.CF62340C@mindspring.com> <20020522082154.GA4265@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-05-21 23:27, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > So why not fix the code, instead of using it as an excuse for > > > keeping things secret, especially when a court asks about it? ;) > > > > > > Sounds like a very silly excuse to me. > > > > When you fix design flaws, APIs change. > > It would require recompiling everything. > > Yes, I know. How about "not my problem, but Microsoft's" ? > If they want to claim that their products are secure, then they should > make the effort that it takes to compile them ;) That only works if all the products that are insecure as a result of the bogus APIs are Microsoft products. They aren't. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:48:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E73037B40F for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.119] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A98F3BD8003E; Wed, 22 May 2002 12:46:55 -0500 Message-ID: <007001c201b8$c380bec0$93ec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <3CEBD52C.6BB03898@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alphaclock.c) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:47:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Terry Lambert" To: "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" ; "Annelise Anderson" ; "Jamie Bowden" ; "Rahul Siddharthan" ; "Alexey Dokuchaev" ; Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alphaclock.c) > Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 11:22 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Which is a complete mis-nomer, because it is not a proper > > division between the states which were in the Union and the states > > which were in the Confederacy. Why do you think that West Virginia > > was formed? > > A secret kabal refusing to be from the home state of the CIA? > A NOT so secret set of political subdivisions refusing to be from the "home state" of the *CSA*, more accurate IIRC. Kevin Kinsey > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:54:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB6B37B409 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17AaIx-00052B-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:53:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 May 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > I always thought it was "domo origato" or maybe "domo oregato". > I looked it up in a Japanes-English-Japanese dictionary last night > (for other reasons), and it turns out that the word is apparently > properly spelled "doumoarigatou". That is different than what I learned in my college classes (but I don't know nihon-go very well). If using hiragana or katakana, then it would use the characters: do mo a ri ga to (But I do see that some dictionaries have "dou" and "tou", but that was different from what i was taught.) > Now, tell me how you would be inclined to pronounce this word, > and whether or not it would be the same as you would be inclined to > pronounce either of the two previous examples. If you memorize each of the characters, then it becomes easy to pronounce (or read) the words. I used to practice ka (kah), ki (key), ku (koo), ke (kay), ko and so on. Also, all consonants are followed by a vowel (except "n"). This also makes it easy for figuring out how to pronounce a word. I see there are numerous websites about this. This site looks useful: http://www.thejapanesepage.com/hiragana.htm You can use it to practice hiragana. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 10:56: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243B737B40B; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0319.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.64] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AaL3-0004Mi-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 10:55:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEBDB8B.773F724C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:55:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit:src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522190030.M45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:00 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say > >> "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". > > > > So do the Germans. Dutch *is* German, remember? > > Uh, no. It's not. They may be closely related, but they are not > the same. He's right. They are different. One is Dutch. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 11: 7: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95FA37B4C9 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0319.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.64] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AaVN-0000RF-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:06:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEBDE0B.4F1EE1F8@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:06:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTF: These dealers today References: <20020522154011.A5575@daemon.tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > Bottom line: I wonder if anyone, even someone who has been selling flowers > before and cannot even operate a pocket calculator, can these days work in > a computer shop. While it is nothing new for me that folks in "big" stores > that sell a whole lot of stuff (including computers) often don't have much > of a clue, I would have expected that people working in specialized > computer shops should at least be familiar with the basics... Probably he's working there only because he lost his software engineering job. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 13:46:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C9237B41B; Wed, 22 May 2002 13:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by travelers.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16561; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:46:30 -0400 (EDT) From: cjc26@cornell.edu X-Sender: cjc26@travelers.mail.cornell.edu To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) In-Reply-To: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > They undoubtedly have some sort of link, but is this > "proto-Indo-European" some sort of guess or reconstruction, or is > there actual evidence for it somewhere? It's a reconstruction, based on the huge number of regular sound correspondences between Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, English, and many other languages spoken in Europe and South Asia. There's no written evidence for it, as it was spoken well before the invention of writing, but any claim that it never really existed would have to explain where all these sound correspondences come from (and no, "mere coincidence" doesn't count as an explanation :) > How do people arrive at > "Hoi(H)nos" and "h3ekteh3" (how do you pronounce those "3"s?) in PIE? Sorry, those are supposed to be "h"s with a subscript "3", which is kind of an unusual sound pronounced something like "hw". Linguists arrive at these reconstructions by looking at corresponding sounds in different languages and figuring out what would be the most likely sound in the protolanguage that could develop into the corresponding sounds in the attested languages. An easy example is the reconstruction of PIE /p/ -- Sanskrit /p/ corresponds to Latin /p/, Greek /p/, Hittite /p/, Avestan /p/, Lithuanian /p/, Old Church Slavonic /p/, Tocharian /p/ (do you see a pattern here :), and Gothic /f/ or /b/ (both of which are very similar to /p/, in that they are pronounced using the lips), so what a linguist would say is that the protolanguage had /p/, while Proto-Germanic underwent a sound change that changed all instances of /p/ to either /f/ or /b/. (Not all of the reconstructions are this simple, of course) > Who are the people who spoke it -- the Aryans who are believed to have > originated from around the Caspian Sea? If so, how do we know > anything about their language -- is there any kind of record they left > behind at all? Well, we can tell a little about where they lived and what their culture was like based on which words we can reconstruct in the protolanguage. So, for example, we can reconstruct the words "sow", "plow", and "cow", so we know that they knew about agriculture and raising livestock. We can't reconstruct the word for "chicken", though, so that suggests that they did not live any farther east than Persia. Also, we can reconstruct a word for "metal", but not for "iron", so that suggests they lived sometime during the Bronze Age. > Yes, I suppose I could try look up the book you cited, but I'm lazy :) I really recommend taking a look at Beeke's book if you're at all interested in the subject...it's a good introduction to historical linguistics. You could also try googling for "historical linguistics", "comparative method", "proto-indo-european", etc. -- Cliff Crawford :: cjc26 at cornell dot edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 14:16:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A1F37B40F for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A7EBC535E; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:16:45 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ASP anyone? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020522104512.019fe728@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 May 2002 23:16:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020522104512.019fe728@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > I've been reading about Microsoft's Active Server Pages for producing > dynamic content on the Web. What's an equivalent technology on an > Open Source server, say FreeBSD running Apache? JSP, using JServ (or replacing Apache altogether with Tomcat) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 14:40:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E72937B407; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4MLdvU11614; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:39:57 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CEBD4BB.722F5203@mindspring.com> References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEBD4BB.722F5203@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:35:37 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit:src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:26 AM -0700 2002/05/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > (Everyone knows "Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto") Indeed, but this is not the correct Romaji spelling. The correct spelling is "doumo arigatou". Without going into some of the details that have been explained to me in private e-mail, the pronunciation is fairly close to "doe-moe-ahh-ree-gah-toe". > The more interesting one is the formal: > > "Domo arigato gozaimashita" According to the English-Japanese/Japanese-English dictionary at , there are a variety of choices, the closest would appear to be: arigatou gozaimasu doumo arigatou > The interesting part is that "shita" is pronounced "shta". I don't see "gozaimashita" anywhere on this list. Indeed, searching in the directory, I don't see "gozaimashita" anywhere. Looking for "gozaima" in the dictionary, I only find two hits, both for the same entry -- "gozaimasu", but with slightly different spellings in Kana. > Japanese is a much easier language to learn from Romaji texts if you > "happen" to have the full set of "Mangaijin" (pun on "Magazine for > foreigners"), and if you happen to know that it's SOV rather than > SVO order for most sentences. Now that would be cool to have. Where do you get these things? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 14:54:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46ABB37B415 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-62-147-148-251.dial.proxad.net [62.147.148.251]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D74624D for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:54:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1685 invoked by uid 1001); 22 May 2002 21:52:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:52:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: cjc26@cornell.edu Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org cjc26@cornell.edu said on May 22, 2002 at 16:46:30: [proto-Indo-European] > There's no written evidence for it, as it was spoken well before the > invention of writing, but any claim that it never really existed would > have to explain where all these sound correspondences come from (and > no, "mere coincidence" doesn't count as an explanation :) I suppose that makes sense. There are a few "Hindu nationalists" in India who try to claim that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages and spread from India westwards, but their scholarship is in general quite shoddy. The fact that Sanskrit and Latin have totally different scripts suggests that they both originated from some earlier language which had either no script, or a very inadequate one... > > How do people arrive at > > "Hoi(H)nos" and "h3ekteh3" (how do you pronounce those "3"s?) in PIE? > > Sorry, those are supposed to be "h"s with a subscript "3", which is kind > of an unusual sound pronounced something like "hw". [example of reconstruction of sounds] > (Not all of the reconstructions are this simple, of course) I'm still skeptical about how far you can really go with such techniques. Sounds and pronunciations change over time, and recordings didn't exist until a hundred years ago (in which time span there have already been significant changes in pronunciation), so extrapolating back 10,000 years seems far-fetched. Sanskrit has mostly been passed on by word of mouth by the priestly classes, so has diverged remarkably little between say the north and the south of India, but there are notable exceptions. The first letter in the word for "knowledge" is pronounced roughly "jn" or "gn" (somewhat as in "lasagna") in the south, but "gy" in the north (so, "jnana" versus "gyana"). The former is probably more accurate. The distinction between two different forms of "sh" -- as in "krishna" (more accurately, "krshna") and "sharma" -- is not altogether clear, and in practice most people don't make a distinction. In living languages such as Hindi, the divergence is much greater, as it is in English (even within England there is a huge regional variation in pronunciation, particularly of vowels). Given all this, and given that we can't confidently say what Sanskrit sounded like as recently as the Vedic period (even the written language then was quite different from the later "classical" Sanskrit of 2000 years ago), or for that matter how the Romans spoke Latin or the ancient Greeks spoke Greek, I don't see how sounds of a proto-Indo-European language (for example, the "hw" you cite above) can be reconstructed at all. > Well, we can tell a little about where they lived and what their culture > was like based on which words we can reconstruct in the protolanguage. > So, for example, we can reconstruct the words "sow", "plow", and "cow", so > we know that they knew about agriculture and raising livestock. We can't > reconstruct the word for "chicken", though, so that suggests that they did > not live any farther east than Persia. Also, we can reconstruct a word > for "metal", but not for "iron", so that suggests they lived sometime > during the Bronze Age. That's pretty interesting, and much more believable than the reconstruction of sounds... but not *entirely* believable. The words for "chicken" or "iron" could have changed for some relatively minor reason -- compare "iron" and "steel" in English, whose distinction is not terribly important in practice. Or, they may not have thought a separate word necessary for "iron". The present-day Hindi/Sanskrit word is "loha" but my Sanskrit dictionary suggests "loha" could mean iron, copper or gold; perhaps it's the generic word for "metal" you're thinking of? Iron certainly existed in vedic times, so the lack of a distinct word doesn't mean much. (There are several distinct words for gold, which perhaps show its importance; I'm not sure about copper.) > I really recommend taking a look at Beeke's book if you're at all > interested in the subject...it's a good introduction to historical > linguistics. You could also try googling for "historical linguistics", > "comparative method", "proto-indo-european", etc. Will do -- actually already did the google thing a couple of hours ago. But thanks for your detailed mail, anyway (it's lucky that nothing is off-topic on -chat...) Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 15:18:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F002337B40E; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g4MMIHS02711; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:18:17 -0700 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g4MMIFG02699; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:18:15 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:18:14 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020522151814.A16774@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:52:36PM +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:52:36PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I'm still skeptical about how far you can really go with such > techniques. Sounds and pronunciations change over time, and > recordings didn't exist until a hundred years ago (in which time span > there have already been significant changes in pronunciation), so > extrapolating back 10,000 years seems far-fetched. We can do better then 100 years though. The Romans wrote a fair number of things phoneticly so we've actually got a record of approximatly how some languages sounded <1000 years ago. Records in phonetic Coptic (no idea how it's actually spelled) in Latin characters with a few gliphs for missing sounds have allowed linuguists to guess how ancient Egyptian sounded. Intrestingly, when The Mummy and The Mummy Returns were produced, they hired linguists to come up with the dialog so it's as close to "real" as anyone could get. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE87BklXY6L6fI4GtQRAq46AKDAEEmfihNL5RE38Yp7TGbxojRqRwCeIw/S E+VSexUrcgf4Fbbm2L+4vSw= =Gnnk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 16:10:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AC337B40B; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0151.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.151] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17AfFW-0004rb-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:10:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEC2544.D1CBBC4@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:09:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvscommit:src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEBD4BB.722F5203@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:26 AM -0700 2002/05/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > > (Everyone knows "Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto") > = > Indeed, but this is not the correct Romaji spelling. The corre= ct > spelling is "doumo arigatou". Without going into some of the details > that have been explained to me in private e-mail, the pronunciation > is fairly close to "doe-moe-ahh-ree-gah-toe". D=F3omo ar=EDgatoo gozaim=E1su Conversational Japanese Living Language ISBN 0-517-55877-7 _ Arigato gozaimasu Barron's Japanese Vocabulary Carol and Nubuo Akiyama ISBN 0-8120-4743-5 _ _ Domo Arigato gozaimasu Say it in Japanese Japan Tavel Bureau, Inc. ISBN 4-533-01956-0 DOH-moh, ah-REE-gah-toh go-ZAH-ee-mahs Japanese at a glance ISBN 0-8120-2850-3 But I have to say that the NHK series, and most of the 30 other books I have on the subject agree with non-phonetic Romaji, as in: Arigato gozaimasu Japanese Business Ettiquite Diana Rowland ISBN 0-446-38943-9 The only one I have that spells it "doumo arigatou" is actually a book in German on how to speak Japanese. 8-). > > The interesting part is that "shita" is pronounced "shta". > = > I don't see "gozaimashita" anywhere on this list. Indeed, > searching in the directory, I don't see "gozaimashita" anywhere. > Looking for "gozaima" in the dictionary, I only find two hits, both > for the same entry -- "gozaimasu", but with slightly different > spellings in Kana. You need to be speaking to the emperor. 8-). > > Japanese is a much easier language to learn from Romaji texts if you= > > "happen" to have the full set of "Mangaijin" (pun on "Magazine for > > foreigners"), and if you happen to know that it's SOV rather than > > SVO order for most sentences. > = > Now that would be cool to have. Where do you get these things?= I bought them as they were first being published. The magazine unfortunately went under. They were offering back issues for sale online for a while. I imagine the only place you can get them now is eBay or estate sales. 8-(. If you can find them, English translations of Japanese style magazine articles and ads and comics (e.g. "Dilbert") are a good way to learn Japanese, with the English in the Japanese word order, E.g: Joshiki no nai hito no tame common sense (subj.) not have people 's sake/benefit no gakko o tsukuro to omou n da of/for school (obj.) shall make (quote) think (explan.) (Dogbert says: "I am going to open a school for people with no common sense") The one drawback I found was that they used English phonetic diacriticals (only for long "o", as with the "Barron's" books, above), rather than relying on NHK standard Romaji. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 19:25:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAF337B416 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 16CC1812E5; Thu, 23 May 2002 11:55:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:55:09 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Yana Lehey Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020523115509.P45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522185914.L45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 12:17:04 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:59 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Which is kind of why I think I'll like learning Dutch (as opposed >>> to Flemish), because if I'm going to automatically "get it wrong" no >>> matter what, I might as well have a little bit of fun tweaking their >>> nose. >> >> But there's so little difference between Dutch and Flemish (apart from >> the throat disease), and the Dutch are more tolerant. > > So sez you. And a number of Dutch and Flemish people I know. > I've been told by Flemish and Dutch speakers alike that the > languages are "very" different, The differences I understand to exist are: 1. Pronunciation. 2. The notable absence of French-derived words in Flemish. I have shown both Flemish and Dutch people texts written in one of the languages (we still don't know which), and they couldn't tell them apart. > and I understand that there's probably as much or more animosity > between Dutch vs. Flemish speakers as there is between > Belgian/Wallonian French vs. French French speakers, and as there is > between Flemish & Belgian/Wallonian French speakers. No, I haven't heard that. > Let's not even get started on dialects. ;-) Why not? That's really what we're talking about. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 19:28: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE9937B406 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A63F1812F4; Thu, 23 May 2002 11:57:53 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:57:53 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020523115753.Q45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522112854.A26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522064417.GA893@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522105240.B46377@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522183052.J45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020522190030.M45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 12:20:42 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:00 PM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Nah. Dutch numbers are much more fun. Where we would say >>> "Ninety-five", they say the equivalent of "Five-and-Ninety". >> >> So do the Germans. Dutch *is* German, remember? > > Uh, no. It's not. They may be closely related, but they are not > the same. I took German lessons while I was in third grade, from a > lady down the road who also ran a daycare center. Turns out she was > the only member of her family to survive Auschwitz, but I didn't > learn that until much later. Ah, you're talking about High German, the language spoken in Germany. That derived from (mainly) old Saxon and Barb^Hvarian, with a significant influence of Anglo-Saxon via the English missionaries who converted the German tribes about 1300 years ago. Dutch derives from old Frisian, another German dialect. Like English, they're both Western Germanic languages. > And Dutch still sounds to me like a cat hacking up a hairball. ;-) Indeed :-) > Moreover, I have friends in the US who are fluent in German, > and they tell me they are always screwed up when they hear Dutch, > because the words are formed more like German, but the rhythm and > word sounds are much more like English -- so they feel like their > brain is being split in half. Yes, Dutch sounds just plain funny if you speak English and German. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 19:42:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDD537B403 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 59DF4812E5; Thu, 23 May 2002 12:12:35 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:12:35 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020523121235.V45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020522155814.E45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB3B8C.9FD6AD0E@mindspring.com> <20020522162144.F45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB4C8A.150E16F@mindspring.com> <20020522172736.G45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEBD57E.39BB1B4B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEBD57E.39BB1B4B@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 10:29:34 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 0:45:14 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>>> Continental North America. Geopolitically, they are split >>>>> between North and Central America. >>>> >>>> Where does that definition come from? >>> >>> The world atlas; here's an online reference: >>> >>> http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/centralamerica.html >> >> Central America? That's a continent? > > Read the posting to which you were originally replying. It's a > geopolitical division. Well, as I said, I was talking geography. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 20:16:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AD837B40B for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 43DF78133C; Thu, 23 May 2002 12:46:04 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:46:04 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 7:03:50 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in >> Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere >> near the US. ;-) > > No, Bruxelles is the capital of the UE. No, that's Brussel. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 22:16:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0558B37B405 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 22:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 014B3816B7; Thu, 23 May 2002 14:45:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:45:50 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 23:52:36 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > cjc26@cornell.edu said on May 22, 2002 at 16:46:30: > [proto-Indo-European] >> There's no written evidence for it, as it was spoken well before the >> invention of writing, but any claim that it never really existed would >> have to explain where all these sound correspondences come from (and >> no, "mere coincidence" doesn't count as an explanation :) > > I suppose that makes sense. There are a few "Hindu nationalists" in > India who try to claim that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages > and spread from India westwards, but their scholarship is in general > quite shoddy. The fact that Sanskrit and Latin have totally different > scripts suggests that they both originated from some earlier language > which had either no script, or a very inadequate one... It definitely had no script. Latin, Greek and Sanskrit also had no script in the early days. The Greeks tried one particularly unsuitable version early on and dropped it, then, like the Latins, adopted the Phoenecian alphabet (as did the Hebrews). The current Devanagari script used for Sanskrit is also at least the second attempt, and it's much newer than the language. >>> How do people arrive at "Hoi(H)nos" and "h3ekteh3" (how do you >>> pronounce those "3"s?) in PIE? >> Sorry, those are supposed to be "h"s with a subscript "3", which is kind >> of an unusual sound pronounced something like "hw". > > [example of reconstruction of sounds] It's interesting how many "h"-related sounds PIE had. I wonder if it's indicative of the way human language has evolved over that period. >> (Not all of the reconstructions are this simple, of course) > > I'm still skeptical about how far you can really go with such > techniques. Sounds and pronunciations change over time, and > recordings didn't exist until a hundred years ago (in which time > span there have already been significant changes in pronunciation), > so extrapolating back 10,000 years seems far-fetched. Sanskrit has > mostly been passed on by word of mouth by the priestly classes, so > has diverged remarkably little between say the north and the south > of India, but there are notable exceptions. The first letter in the > word for "knowledge" is pronounced roughly "jn" or "gn" (somewhat as > in "lasagna") in the south, but "gy" in the north (so, "jnana" > versus "gyana"). The former is probably more accurate. The > distinction between two different forms of "sh" -- as in "krishna" > (more accurately, "krshna") and "sharma" -- is not altogether clear, > and in practice most people don't make a distinction. In living > languages such as Hindi, the divergence is much greater, as it is in > English (even within England there is a huge regional variation in > pronunciation, particularly of vowels). Yes, these are normal changes, and there are similar ones in European languages. For example, the English word "year" was spelt "gear" in Anglo-Saxon, and at some time it was pronounced with a g. > Given all this, and given that we can't confidently say what > Sanskrit sounded like as recently as the Vedic period (even the > written language then was quite different from the later "classical" > Sanskrit of 2000 years ago), or for that matter how the Romans spoke > Latin or the ancient Greeks spoke Greek, I don't see how sounds of a > proto-Indo-European language (for example, the "hw" you cite above) > can be reconstructed at all. I'm not in a position to put the arguments, but I've read them in the past and found them well-reasoned. The general method involves looking at how the words evolved in different languages. >> Well, we can tell a little about where they lived and what their culture >> was like based on which words we can reconstruct in the protolanguage. >> So, for example, we can reconstruct the words "sow", "plow", and "cow", so >> we know that they knew about agriculture and raising livestock. We can't >> reconstruct the word for "chicken", though, so that suggests that they did >> not live any farther east than Persia. Also, we can reconstruct a word >> for "metal", but not for "iron", so that suggests they lived sometime >> during the Bronze Age. Hmm, I've just read a different interpretation, which suggests that Sanskrit "ayas", Latin "aes" and Gothic "Ais" (whence German Eisen) might have meant iron. But that's not the point; this kind of research is of necessity incomplete, and it needs to be refined as time goes on. > That's pretty interesting, and much more believable than the > reconstruction of sounds... but not *entirely* believable. The > words for "chicken" or "iron" could have changed for some relatively > minor reason -- compare "iron" and "steel" in English, whose > distinction is not terribly important in practice. Indeed. I note that in some Aryan language (Hindi?), a word for goose is "Hans". In Iranian, it's "Ghans", and in German it's "Gans". This suggests that geese were known in PIE times, so why not chickens? > Or, they may not have thought a separate word necessary for "iron". > The present-day Hindi/Sanskrit word is "loha" but my Sanskrit > dictionary suggests "loha" could mean iron, copper or gold; perhaps > it's the generic word for "metal" you're thinking of? Iron > certainly existed in vedic times, so the lack of a distinct word > doesn't mean much. (There are several distinct words for gold, > which perhaps show its importance; I'm not sure about copper.) There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about metals. My book suggested "hatakam" for gold in Sanskrit. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 23:16: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363DB37B41B for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-160-129.dial.proxad.net [62.147.160.129]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BD174B for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 08:15:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 357 invoked by uid 1001); 23 May 2002 06:15:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:15:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 12:46:04: > On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 7:03:50 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in > >> Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere > >> near the US. ;-) > > > > No, Bruxelles is the capital of the UE. > > No, that's Brussel. Bruxelles in French, Brussel in Flemish. French is the primary language there. So what is the European Union in Flemish? I wouldn't have thought it was inverted. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 23:25:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1859B37B405 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2C20C816B7; Thu, 23 May 2002 15:55:41 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:55:41 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 23 May 2002 at 8:15:51 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 12:46:04: >> On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 7:03:50 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >>>> Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in >>>> Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere >>>> near the US. ;-) >>> >>> No, Bruxelles is the capital of the UE. >> >> No, that's Brussel. > > Bruxelles in French, Brussel in Flemish. French is the primary > language there. Depends on the part of town. > So what is the European Union in Flemish? I wouldn't have thought > it was inverted. No, it's a Germanic language. I'd expect it to be something like "Europese Unie", but then I don't speak Flemish. The German is "Europäische Union". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 23:26:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E4B37B40C for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-160-129.dial.proxad.net [62.147.160.129]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD1B5FBE6 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 08:26:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 423 invoked by uid 1001); 23 May 2002 06:26:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:26:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523062640.GB237@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 14:45:50: > > That's pretty interesting, and much more believable than the > > reconstruction of sounds... but not *entirely* believable. The > > words for "chicken" or "iron" could have changed for some relatively > > minor reason -- compare "iron" and "steel" in English, whose > > distinction is not terribly important in practice. > > Indeed. I note that in some Aryan language (Hindi?), a word for goose > is "Hans". In Iranian, it's "Ghans", and in German it's "Gans". This > suggests that geese were known in PIE times, so why not chickens? "Hansa" in Sanskrit/Hindi means swan, not (afaik) goose, but perhaps close enough. (On that topic, what does "Lufthansa" mean? Given that the emblem is a flying swan, many in India think it means "flying swan" but I'm told there's no such word in German.) > There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about metals. My book > suggested "hatakam" for gold in Sanskrit. I haven't heard that one, but you seem to be right. The most common word is "swarna", and there is also "kanaka", etc. Similarly, there are at least seven or eight words for "lotus." Presumably it's because these were significant objects to them. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 23:32:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB7037B406 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-160-129.dial.proxad.net [62.147.160.129]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B2A182A3 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 08:32:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 516 invoked by uid 1001); 23 May 2002 06:32:22 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:32:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 15:55:41: > On Thursday, 23 May 2002 at 8:15:51 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 12:46:04: > >> On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 7:03:50 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >>>> Strange, that would make it the EU, whereas I am currently in > >>>> Brussels which is the capital of the EU, and yet I am not anywhere > >>>> near the US. ;-) > >>> > >>> No, Bruxelles is the capital of the UE. > >> > >> No, that's Brussel. > > > > Bruxelles in French, Brussel in Flemish. French is the primary > > language there. > > Depends on the part of town. Well, if it's Brussel, Brad shouldn't be worried about the United States being the EU :) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 23:49: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2977437B40A for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 23:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 95D8A816B9; Thu, 23 May 2002 16:18:54 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:18:54 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523161854.J230@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523062640.GB237@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020523062640.GB237@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 23 May 2002 at 8:26:40 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 14:45:50: >>> That's pretty interesting, and much more believable than the >>> reconstruction of sounds... but not *entirely* believable. The >>> words for "chicken" or "iron" could have changed for some relatively >>> minor reason -- compare "iron" and "steel" in English, whose >>> distinction is not terribly important in practice. >> >> Indeed. I note that in some Aryan language (Hindi?), a word for goose >> is "Hans". In Iranian, it's "Ghans", and in German it's "Gans". This >> suggests that geese were known in PIE times, so why not chickens? > > "Hansa" in Sanskrit/Hindi means swan, not (afaik) goose, but perhaps > close enough. Yes, I suppose so. What's "goose"? I have a (very good) Indian goose recipe which has been called "Khubab Hans", though I don't know what language that is. > (On that topic, what does "Lufthansa" mean? Given that the emblem > is a flying swan, many in India think it means "flying swan" but I'm > told there's no such word in German.) Well, of course there's a word for flying swan: fliegender Schwan. To quote the OED, the Hansa (English Hanse) was "The name of a famous political and commercial league of Germanic towns". "Luft" means "air", so "Lufthansa" is something like "air league". I don't know what the bird is supposed to be. The Hanse was mainly a maritime organization, and it was spread round the North Sea and Baltic Sea, with connections in London. Until recently, the prevailing view was that the English word "Sterling" referred to the "Easterlings" of the Hanse, but the OED considers this to be incorrect. Still, it shows the importance of the Hanse that people should have thought so. The Hanse isn't dead; four famous towns (Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck and Rostock) still claim to be part of the Hanse, and Bremen and Hamburg are still city-states within the German Federation. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 0: 8:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606D637B403; Thu, 23 May 2002 00:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0170.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.170] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Amhz-00068X-00; Thu, 23 May 2002 00:08:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEC953D.BC381977@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 00:07:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , cjc26@cornell.edu, Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> How do people arrive at "Hoi(H)nos" and "h3ekteh3" (how do you > >>> pronounce those "3"s?) in PIE? > >> Sorry, those are supposed to be "h"s with a subscript "3", which is kind > >> of an unusual sound pronounced something like "hw". > > > > [example of reconstruction of sounds] > > It's interesting how many "h"-related sounds PIE had. I wonder if > it's indicative of the way human language has evolved over that > period. If we are placing bets, mine is that it's based on biomechanics. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 0:28: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE8D37B412 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 00:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-136-49.dial.proxad.net [62.147.136.49]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD253184B0 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 09:28:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 769 invoked by uid 1001); 23 May 2002 07:27:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:27:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523072754.GA676@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523062640.GB237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523161854.J230@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020523161854.J230@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 16:18:54: > Yes, I suppose so. What's "goose"? Good question. I don't know. I think the usual word in Hindi is "batak" but that really means duck rather than goose. > I have a (very good) Indian goose recipe which has been called > "Khubab Hans", though I don't know what language that is. "Hans" is unquestionably "swan" in primary meaning, and the only meaning in Hindi as far as I know, but perhaps it means goose too in Sanskrit. My Sanskrit dictionary (V G Apte) does not say so, but a Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary which I found online gives that meaning. But I haven't heard of either goose or swan as a food item in India (even duck is rather uncommon, the only widespread bird is chicken). > Well, of course there's a word for flying swan: fliegender Schwan. OK, what I was told (by a German) was that "Hansa" does not mean swan; but she did not know the meaning you describe, the political and commercial league. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 0:42: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foo31-146.visit.se (foo31-146.visit.se [62.119.31.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1514437B409; Thu, 23 May 2002 00:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by foo31-146.visit.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9E8926AB1C; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:52:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:52:16 +0200 From: Martin Karlsson To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020522175216.GA2441@foo31-146.visit.se> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Karlsson , Rahul Siddharthan , cjc26@cornell.edu, Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5970 BE22 2C33 4D8F 53FD 7E34 66FF 9332 9C92 4660 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan [2002-05-22 19.23 +0200]: > cjc26@cornell.edu said on May 22, 2002 at 13:14:14: > > > > Well, yeah, they're related languages. :) They're both descended from > > Proto-Indo-European. > > They undoubtedly have some sort of link, but is this > "proto-Indo-European" some sort of guess or reconstruction, or is > there actual evidence for it somewhere? Well, it is a guess, supported by "evidence" which make it possible to reconstruct. As there are no written records of anything PIE, the thing linguists do is to look at languages _not_ related to the IE-family. English Swedish Finnish king kung kuningas Finnish is a non-IE language, and kuningas is a very "un-Finnish" word, and thus probably a loan (from another (IE) language). Now, because we know about Grimm's law, and Werner's law, it's possible to apply sound-changing rules _backwards_, and arrive at the conclusion that the word for king in PIE probably was (something like) kuningaz. > How do people arrive at "Hoi(H)nos" and "h3ekteh3" (how do you > pronounce those "3"s?) in PIE? Who are the people who spoke it -- > the Aryans who are believed to have originated from around the > Caspian Sea? If so, how do we know anything about their language > -- is there any kind of record they left behind at all? > > Yes, I suppose I could try look up the book you cited, but I'm > lazy :) Try: The English Language. A Historical Introduction by Charles Barber, for a bit of light reading :) Hope I got this more or less right ;) Cheers, -- Martin Karlsson _ GPG/PGP public key: 0x9C924660 ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) -against HTML, vCards and X -proprietary attachments in e-mail / \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 1: 7:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A22C37B400 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 01:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-133-204.dial.proxad.net [62.147.133.204]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A06E15B for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 10:07:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 930 invoked by uid 1001); 23 May 2002 08:07:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:07:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Martin Karlsson , cjc26@cornell.edu, Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523080740.GA894@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522175216.GA2441@foo31-146.visit.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522175216.GA2441@foo31-146.visit.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Martin Karlsson said on May 22, 2002 at 19:52:16: > Well, it is a guess, supported by "evidence" which make it possible > to reconstruct. As there are no written records of anything PIE, > the thing linguists do is to look at languages _not_ related to the > IE-family. > > English Swedish Finnish > king kung kuningas > > Finnish is a non-IE language, and kuningas is a very "un-Finnish" > word, and thus probably a loan (from another (IE) language). Now, > because we know about Grimm's law, and Werner's law, it's possible > to apply sound-changing rules _backwards_, and arrive at the > conclusion that the word for king in PIE probably was (something > like) kuningaz. But is it clear that the distortion did not happen *after* entry into Finnish? To take an example in India, Tamil and other southern languages are non-IE, but as spoken today they have several Sanskrit-origin words mixed up in them, and indeed many of these words may have been imported many centuries ago. These words are usually pronounced differently from Sanskrit -- Tamil tends to confuse the sounds "t" and "d", "g" and "k", etc. So if a Tamil word for a particular tree is "shembaga" and the Sanskrit word is "champaka", it is quite definitely because it got changed in Tamil, not because it was "shembaga" in some PIE language. By the time Finnish was in a position to absorb words from neighbouring Indo-European languages, surely the forms of Latin and Greek were already quite solid. If PIE was spoken near the Black Sea, I don't see how it could have influenced Finnish... In fact, "kuningas" sounds nothing like any Sanskrit word for "king", which it should have if it was indeed PIE. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 1:51:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D637B413 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 01:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 74C59816B9; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:21:29 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:21:29 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Martin Karlsson , Rahul Siddharthan , cjc26@cornell.edu, Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523182129.L230@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522175216.GA2441@foo31-146.visit.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020522175216.GA2441@foo31-146.visit.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 19:52:16 +0200, Martin Karlsson wrote: > * Rahul Siddharthan [2002-05-22 19.23 +0200]: >> cjc26@cornell.edu said on May 22, 2002 at 13:14:14: >>> >>> Well, yeah, they're related languages. :) They're both descended from >>> Proto-Indo-European. >> >> They undoubtedly have some sort of link, but is this >> "proto-Indo-European" some sort of guess or reconstruction, or is >> there actual evidence for it somewhere? > > Well, it is a guess, supported by "evidence" which make it possible > to reconstruct. As there are no written records of anything PIE, > the thing linguists do is to look at languages _not_ related to the > IE-family. > > English Swedish Finnish > king kung kuningas > > Finnish is a non-IE language, and kuningas is a very "un-Finnish" > word, and thus probably a loan (from another (IE) language). Now, > because we know about Grimm's law, and Werner's law, it's possible > to apply sound-changing rules _backwards_, and arrive at the > conclusion that the word for king in PIE probably was (something > like) kuningaz. That's one of the possibilities. The Old Teutonic form is *kuningo-z (the * means assumed form). From the OED, with its inimitable character swapping (/ is a letter that on the screen is so mutilated that it's difficult to recognize, but was presumably an alternative g or ng that I've never seen elsewhere): Entry printed from Oxford English Dictionary (c) Oxford University Press 1999 king, n. (kIN) Forms: 1 cyning, (-incg), kyning, cining, cyni/, 1_2 cyng, cing, (1 cyncg, ching), 1_6 kyng, 4_6 kynge, (4 kinge, kin, 5 kynnge, kink, keng), 2_ king. [A Com. Teut. word: OE. cyning = OFris. kin-, ken-, koning, OS. kuning (MDu. coninc, Du. koning, MLG. kon(n)ink), OHG. chun-, kuning:_OTeut. *kuningo-z, a derivative of *kunjo-, Goth. kuni, OE. cynn, kin, race, etc. The ON. equivalent was konong-r, -ungr (Sw. konung). Finnish kuningas king, and Lith. kuningas lord, priest, were early adoptions from Teut. In most of the Teut. languages two reduced forms appear: 1) OE. cyni/ = OFris. kinig, etc., OS. kunig (MDu. conich), OHG. chun-, kunig (MHG. kunic, kunec, G. konig, _kunig); 2) OE. cyng, cing = MHG. kunc (obs. G. kung, kung), ON. kongr (Sw. kung, Da. konge). Compare OE. peni/ (G. pfennig) penny, for pening; ON. pengar pl. (Da. penge) for peningar. As to the exact relation, in form and sense, of king to kin, views differ. Some take it as a direct derivative, in the sense either of `scion of the kin, race, or tribe', or `scion of a (or the) noble kin', comparing dryhten (:_*druhtino-z) `lord' from dryht (:_*druhti-z) `army, folk, people', dryht-bearn `lordly or princely child, prince', lit. `child of the nation', ON. fylkir `king' from folk, Goth. tiudans `king', from tiuda people, nation. Others refer *kuningo-z immediately to the supposed masc. *kuni-z, preserved in comb. in OHG. chuni-, OE. cyne- (see kine-1), taking it as = `son or descendant of one of (noble) birth'. See Hildebrand in Grimm, and Kluge, s.v. K; Thu, 23 May 2002 01:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 13F1A816B9; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:24:13 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:24:13 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523182413.M230@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523062640.GB237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523161854.J230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523072754.GA676@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020523072754.GA676@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 23 May 2002 at 9:27:55 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 16:18:54: >> Yes, I suppose so. What's "goose"? > > Good question. I don't know. I think the usual word in Hindi is > "batak" but that really means duck rather than goose. > >> I have a (very good) Indian goose recipe which has been called >> "Khubab Hans", though I don't know what language that is. > > "Hans" is unquestionably "swan" in primary meaning, and the only > meaning in Hindi as far as I know, but perhaps it means goose too in > Sanskrit. I'd consider it unlikely that the name of the recipe is Sanskrit. If it's not Hindi, I'd be more likely to suspect Panjabi, Urdu or one of the myriad other North Indian languages. > My Sanskrit dictionary (V G Apte) does not say so, but a > Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary which I found online gives that > meaning. But I haven't heard of either goose or swan as a food item > in India (even duck is rather uncommon, the only widespread bird is > chicken). This could have been a Moghul dish. >> Well, of course there's a word for flying swan: fliegender Schwan. > > OK, what I was told (by a German) was that "Hansa" does not mean swan; > but she did not know the meaning you describe, the political and > commercial league. I'm sure she did. It's a very well-known word. I suspect it's more likely that she didn't connect it, or didn't think of telling you. "Lufthansa" doesn't really fit into normal meanings of "Hansa". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 2: 0:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1C837B404 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 02:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 78412816B9; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:30:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:30:50 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Martin Karlsson , cjc26@cornell.edu, Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523183050.N230@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522115950.D47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522175216.GA2441@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020523080740.GA894@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020523080740.GA894@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 23 May 2002 at 10:07:40 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Martin Karlsson said on May 22, 2002 at 19:52:16: >> Well, it is a guess, supported by "evidence" which make it possible >> to reconstruct. As there are no written records of anything PIE, >> the thing linguists do is to look at languages _not_ related to the >> IE-family. >> >> English Swedish Finnish >> king kung kuningas >> >> Finnish is a non-IE language, and kuningas is a very "un-Finnish" >> word, and thus probably a loan (from another (IE) language). Now, >> because we know about Grimm's law, and Werner's law, it's possible >> to apply sound-changing rules _backwards_, and arrive at the >> conclusion that the word for king in PIE probably was (something >> like) kuningaz. > > But is it clear that the distortion did not happen *after* entry into > Finnish? Well, according to the OED, yes. > To take an example in India, Tamil and other southern languages are > non-IE, but as spoken today they have several Sanskrit-origin words > mixed up in them, and indeed many of these words may have been > imported many centuries ago. These words are usually pronounced > differently from Sanskrit -- Tamil tends to confuse the sounds "t" > and "d", "g" and "k", etc. So if a Tamil word for a particular tree > is "shembaga" and the Sanskrit word is "champaka", it is quite > definitely because it got changed in Tamil, not because it was > "shembaga" in some PIE language. This sort of change is also typical in European languages. It's interesting to note that initial sounds tend to change, while suffixes tend to disappear (as they did in the example of "king"), so a suffix is more likely to point to the original. > By the time Finnish was in a position to absorb words from > neighbouring Indo-European languages, surely the forms of Latin and > Greek were already quite solid. Beyond that. I'd guess that this happened about 500 AD. And the Latin and Greek words for king are nothing like this. > If PIE was spoken near the Black Sea, I don't see how it could have > influenced Finnish... That depends on where the Finns came from. I believe they migrated from Asia, and since they're linguistically related to the Hungarians, it's not at all unlikely that they were near the black sea. The trouble is, by then PIE had been dead for thousands of years. > In fact, "kuningas" sounds nothing like any Sanskrit word for > "king", which it should have if it was indeed PIE. But the Latin "rex", with genitive "regis", most certainly does. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 2: 7:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED2037B40D; Thu, 23 May 2002 02:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4N97Ep27617 ; Thu, 23 May 2002 11:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA19519 ; Thu, 23 May 2002 11:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:07:14 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sanskrit numbers (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020523110714.B18879@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522192335.P47352@lpt.ens.fr> <20020522215236.GA1640@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523144550.C230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523062640.GB237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523161854.J230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523072754.GA676@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523182413.M230@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020523182413.M230@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, May 23, 2002 at 06:24:13PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 23, 2002 at 18:24:13: > > Good question. I don't know. I think the usual word in Hindi is > > "batak" but that really means duck rather than goose. > > > >> I have a (very good) Indian goose recipe which has been called > >> "Khubab Hans", though I don't know what language that is. > > > > "Hans" is unquestionably "swan" in primary meaning, and the only > > meaning in Hindi as far as I know, but perhaps it means goose too in > > Sanskrit. > > I'd consider it unlikely that the name of the recipe is Sanskrit. If > it's not Hindi, I'd be more likely to suspect Panjabi, Urdu or one of > the myriad other North Indian languages. "Khubab" is certainly not Sanskrit and probably not Punjabi. Possibly it's Urdu. Urdu as spoken informally in India and Pakistan is almost identical to Hindi, but the formal language has much more Persian and Arabic influence. I'm told that (according to a dictionary we have back home) the Hindi word for "goose" is "kalhans". > > meaning. But I haven't heard of either goose or swan as a food item > > in India (even duck is rather uncommon, the only widespread bird is > > chicken). > > This could have been a Moghul dish. In that case, it's probably of Persian/Farsi origin. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 2:14:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com (surfa.SineWave.com [192.171.80.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4BB37B406 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 02:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loki.dis.org (d-0058.SineWave.com [192.171.82.58]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15667; Thu, 23 May 2002 02:15:17 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020523014631.0341cec8@dis.org> X-Sender: cassiel@dis.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 01:47:54 -0700 To: Tony Finch , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Cassiel Subject: Re: 007, was Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/renice renice.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020522132610.A15952@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162355.g4GNtam63176@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020517142707.A792@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:26 5/22/2002, Tony Finch wrote: >On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:03:27PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Wilko Bulte writes: > > > Of course there is only one 007 > > > > I count five: Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan. > >You forgot Casino Royale which had David Niven as the principal >James Bond 007, but there were 5 other 007s and a few other >Bonds too. It isn't shown on the telly as much as it deserves >to be :-) There have been seven Bonds to date, starting with Barry Nelson; http://00heaven.org/films/casino_royale_1.htm Cassiel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 16:24:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1E737B40A; Thu, 23 May 2002 16:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020523232406.TRKV11659.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Thu, 23 May 2002 23:24:06 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4NNO4b88427; Thu, 23 May 2002 16:24:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: blossom.cjclark.org: cjc set sender to crist.clark@attbi.com using -f Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:24:04 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020523162404.B88093@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark" References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:33:46AM +0200 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:33:46AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:22 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Er, Mason-Dixon line. > > Which is a complete mis-nomer, because it is not a proper > division between the states which were in the Union and the states > which were in the Confederacy. Why do you think that West Virginia > was formed? And of course, Maryland, a Union state, is south of the Mason-Dixon line, as is Washington D.C. itself. Don't hold me to this, but the Mason-Dixon line orginally meant the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland long before the War Between the States. However, the Mason-Dixon line is associated with North-South politics due to its use in the Missouri Compromise of 1820 which extended the Mason-Dixon west to serve as a boundary for the free versus slave status future US territories. Land north of the boundary would become free states and south would become slave. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 17:26:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E8637B409; Thu, 23 May 2002 17:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0171.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.171] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17B2u7-0006pr-00; Thu, 23 May 2002 17:26:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3CED8875.19D134D9@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:25:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Brad Knowles , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Rahul Siddharthan , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Country names (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522114303.D26107@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CEB391E.C9C46A50@mindspring.com> <20020523162404.B88093@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:33:46AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 11:22 PM -0700 2002/05/21, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Er, Mason-Dixon line. Ugh. You've made a mockery of my mockery... 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 17:32:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.135.138.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF16E37B401 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 17:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 17B30S-0004kG-00 (Debian); Fri, 24 May 2002 01:32:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 01:32:32 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Brad Knowles Cc: Tony Finch , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020524013232.C13780@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 01:54:30PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Tell ya what. I'll consider switching usage when I can find a > freakin' copy of the goddam thing that is being sold fourth or > fifth-hand, and at a price I can bloody afford. Oh, and it has to > demonstrate this usage as being primary, too. Given that I have free (albeit inconvenient [1]) access to the OED I couldn't let this pass. It turns out to be amusingly inconclusive :-) The 1989 second edition lists email as the primary spelling (with e-mail secondary), but only as a noun. The third volume of the additions series (published in 1997) adds the verb form, but this time with e-mail as the primary spelling and E-mail and email as secondary. The current on-line edition's entries aren't different from the dead-tree versions. (email as in electronic mail is the second entry for the word; the first is to do with enamel, but I'm afraid I didn't get a copy of the entry.) email 2. Computing. Also e-mail. Colloq. shortening of electronic mail s.v. ELECTRONIC a. 3. 1982 Computerworld 5 July 68 ADR/Email is reportedly easy to use and features simple, English verbs and prompt screens. 1983 Infosystems Sept. 113/2 Email promotes movement of information through space. 1984 Listener 28 June 38/1 E-mail achieves the same as a telex, or teleprinter, but at much lower cost. 1986 Times 14 Jan. 27/5 Electronic mailnow known universally as e-mail. The partnership of word processor and e-mail almost eliminate [sic] the need for paper. 1986 Sunday Times 25 May 69/6 Simple enough for `email', as it is sometimes called, to be one of the fastest-growing businesses in the world. In Britain, Telecom Gold is doubling its email customer base every year. e-mail, v. Computing. Also E-mail, email. [f. EMAIL n.2] trans. To send by electronic mail; to communicate with (a person) by electronic mail. Also intr., to establish contact by electronic mail. 1987 Whole Earth Rev. Spring 124/1 Articles..become files, which are then transferred..to my Ohio office via electronic mail on the GEnie computer network (this article, however, was e-mailed through The WELL). 1990 Pract. Computing Sept. 35 (caption) Written or typed comments can be added, and the document then processed via Freestyle's icon-based desktop..and emailed to other network users. 1993 Unix Rev. Mar. 28/3 (Advt.), Call, fax or email for a free demo. 1994 Loaded Sept. 111/1 For Sonic Youth we would first e-mail them at SERV@CORNELL.EDU. 1995 T. CLANCY Op-Center xx. 93 The ex-FBI agent went to the computer on the other side of the room and began E-mailing his sources in Asia and Europe. [1] my local library at which I have borrowing privileges has seven million volumes and is a national copyright repository :-) Tony. -- f.a.n.finch http://dotat.at/ CROMARTY FORTH TYNE DOGGER FISHER: SOUTHEAST 4 OR 5 VEERING SOUTH 5 OR 6, OCCASIONALLY 7 LATER IN TYNE AND DOGGER. RAIN LATER. MAINLY GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 17:38:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA3737B405 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 17:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4O0cQk16539; Fri, 24 May 2002 02:38:26 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020524013232.C13780@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20020524013232.C13780@chiark.greenend.org.uk> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 02:38:15 +0200 To: Tony Finch From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:32 AM +0100 2002/05/24, Tony Finch wrote: > 1982 Computerworld 5 July 68 ADR/Email is reportedly easy to use and > features simple, English verbs and prompt screens. It would be interesting to go back to the people who helped develop the very first e-mail systems and ask them what they used at the time, and see if we can find any prior references. I'll have a chance to talk to Peter Salus next week, at SANE 2002 in Maastricht, NL (see ). I'll ask him if he has any pointers or contacts with people who might be able to provide some answers. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 17:58:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EB137B405 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 17:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0171.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.171] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17B3P7-0007Ru-00; Thu, 23 May 2002 17:58:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3CED8FF9.45DB8D2A@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:57:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Tony Finch , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit:src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20020524013232.C13780@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:32 AM +0100 2002/05/24, Tony Finch wrote: > > 1982 Computerworld 5 July 68 ADR/Email is reportedly easy to use and > > features simple, English verbs and prompt screens. > > It would be interesting to go back to the people who helped > develop the very first e-mail systems and ask them what they used at > the time, and see if we can find any prior references. Contact: greg@censoft.com He wrote some of the first email software every written, as an undergraduate at UCSD. Greg was my boss at my first "real job" after college. Among other things, we shipped the very first shrink-wrapped application software for UNIX. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 18:55:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BF937B403 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 18:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4O1tcT15964; Fri, 24 May 2002 03:55:38 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CED8FF9.45DB8D2A@mindspring.com> References: <200205162121.g4GLLGQ43405@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020516220511.A9DBE380A@overcee.wemm.org> <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020521122955.A31528@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20020524013232.C13780@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CED8FF9.45DB8D2A@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 03:55:20 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: email vs. e-mail, was Re: cvs commit:src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Tony Finch , chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:57 PM -0700 2002/05/23, Terry Lambert wrote: > Contact: greg@censoft.com Will do. > He wrote some of the first email software every written, as an > undergraduate at UCSD. Greg was my boss at my first "real job" > after college. Among other things, we shipped the very first > shrink-wrapped application software for UNIX. Looking at the rfc-index, the first relevant entry I find is: 0453 Meeting announcement to discuss a network mail system. M.D. Kudlick. Feb-07-1973. (Format: TXT=4572 bytes) (Status: UNKNOWN) However, looking through this file, they never use the term "email" or "e-mail". They do use the term "network mail", however. They also use the plain "mail" term, as well as "NIC Journal mail". Looking through the RFCs, the earliest apparently relevant use I find of the term "e-mail" is in RFC 977: USENET uses a spooling area on the UNIX host to store news articles, one per file. Each article consists of a series of heading text, which contain the sender's identification and organizational affiliation, timestamps, electronic mail reply paths, subject, newsgroup (subject category), and the like. A complete news article is reproduced in its entirety below. Please consult RFC 850 for more details. Relay-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site sdcsvax.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83 SMI; site unitek.uucp Path:sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!qantel!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!unitek !honman From: honman@unitek.uucp (Man Wong) Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards Subject: foreground -> background ? Message-ID: <167@unitek.uucp> Date: 25 Sep 85 23:51:52 GMT Date-Received: 29 Sep 85 09:54:48 GMT Reply-To: honman@unitek.UUCP (Hon-Man Wong) Distribution: net.all Organization: Unitek Technologies Corporation Lines: 12 I have a process (C program) which generates a child and waits for it to return. What I would like to do is to be able to run the child process interactively for a while before kicking itself into the background so I can return to the parent process (while the child process is RUNNING in the background). Can it be done? And if it can, how? Please reply by E-mail. Thanks in advance. Hon-Man Wong Whereas the term "email" doesn't show up until RFC 1060: Authors' Addresses: Joyce K. Reynolds University of Southern California Information Sciences Institute 4676 Admiralty Way Marina del Rey, CA 90292 Phone: (213) 822-1511 Email: JKREY@ISI.EDU Jon Postel University of Southern California Information Sciences Institute 4676 Admiralty Way Marina del Rey, CA 90292 Phone: (213) 822-1511 Email: POSTEL@ISI.EDU Continuing the back-and-forth consideration, the term "email" doesn't appear to be used anywhere in rfc-index.txt itself, except at the very top, whereas "e-mail" does occur in the titles of a number of RFCs. Counting sheer numbers, in my somewhat dated RFC archive, I find 1244 uses of the word "e-mail" in 325 unique RFCs, but 6062 uses of the word "email" in 1904 unique RFCs. However, a number of documents (296) seem to use both forms. Hmm. Based on this, I'm not quite sure what to think. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 6:30:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BE3F37B403 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 06:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 17BF9R-0006Pn-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 May 2002 14:30:37 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g4ODUb167866 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 May 2002 14:30:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:30:36 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I went to a 'LAN party' the other night, as I have been told they are officially called. A few friends of mine in networking get together regularly in a basement chock full of routers, servers, and NIC cards. The guy who organizes it is a Cisco/NT networking admin, and definitely has a nice set up. They invited me over to help them all get familiar with Unix. Well, I have only used my P2-266 for dialup and a DHCP client at work. But connecting to my friend's network was a breeze as expected. But they were all blown away by how fast Netscape on FreeBSD worked. My machine blew away a P3-500 running Windows. I'm sure having 160 megs of RAM didn't hurt, but it was nice to be reminded how well BSD performs in comparison to the majority leaders. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- There are only 10 kinds of people in this world- those who understand binary, and those who don't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 6:43:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from muheleja.eenet.ee (muheleja.eenet.ee [193.40.0.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CE537B40F for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 06:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by muheleja.eenet.ee (Postfix, from userid 101) id 159C147757; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:43:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from muheleja.eenet.ee (muheleja.eenet.ee [193.40.0.132]) by muheleja.eenet.ee (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDBA47727; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:43:49 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:43:49 +0300 (EEST) From: Imre Oolberg To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... In-Reply-To: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! By the way, being a admirerer of FreeBSD i got a following question, is there any good browser for FreeBSD which doest expect system to have Linux emu? Netscape, Mozilla, Opera the all need that emu? Imre > > I went to a 'LAN party' the other night, as I have been told they are > officially called. A few friends of mine in networking get together > regularly in a basement chock full of routers, servers, and NIC cards. > The guy who organizes it is a Cisco/NT networking admin, and definitely > has a nice set up. They invited me over to help them all get familiar > with Unix. Well, I have only used my P2-266 for dialup and a DHCP > client at work. But connecting to my friend's network was a breeze as > expected. > > But they were all blown away by how fast Netscape on FreeBSD worked. My > machine blew away a P3-500 running Windows. I'm sure having 160 megs of > RAM didn't hurt, but it was nice to be reminded how well BSD performs in > comparison to the majority leaders. > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. > > jm > -- > There are only 10 kinds of people in this world- > those who understand binary, and those who don't. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 7: 0:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355D737B401 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 07:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 17BFc1-0007Cr-00; Fri, 24 May 2002 15:00:09 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g4OE09668073; Fri, 24 May 2002 15:00:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:00:05 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Imre Oolberg Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20020524150005.A67875@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee>; from imre@eenet.ee on Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:43:49PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:43:49PM +0300, Imre Oolberg wrote: | Hi! | | By the way, being a admirerer of FreeBSD i got a following question, is | there any good browser for FreeBSD which doest expect system to have Linux | emu? Netscape, Mozilla, Opera the all need that emu? Some time ago, there was a native FreeBSD Netscape. I believe it was around version 4.5 or so. It didn't do well with plugins, but it was nice to have because it didn't need Linux emulation. I finally caved under the pressure, installed Linux compatibility, and now I don't worry about it any more. It's worth having Java, RealPlayer, and Flash without any problems. jm -- There are only 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 7:36: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29E537B409 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 07:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4OEa3p74934 ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA02142 ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:36:03 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Imre Oolberg Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Imre Oolberg , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee>; from imre@eenet.ee on Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:43:49PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > By the way, being a admirerer of FreeBSD i got a following question, is > there any good browser for FreeBSD which doest expect system to have Linux > emu? Netscape, Mozilla, Opera the all need that emu? Mozilla works fine natively, except the plugins. There is now a native java plugin but not in binary form, you need 700 MB disk space and a few hours to compile it. I haven't tried it. There is also the GPL flash plugin in the ports, and for other plugins there's ports/www/plugger, neither of which I've tried either. Personally I see nothing wrong in using linux emulation. In fact I have linux as dual-boot on that machine, so I just mount the linux partition as /compat/linux, make a few symlinks for mozilla and away I go (but mostly I use konqueror natively under FreeBSD, I don't need plugins). I totally abandoned netscape 4.x around 6 months ago; I'd mostly abandoned it over a year ago. > > But they were all blown away by how fast Netscape on FreeBSD worked. My > > machine blew away a P3-500 running Windows. I'm sure having 160 megs of > > RAM didn't hurt, That could be the major factor, actually. A machine with only 16 MB of RAM will crawl with most of today's software and desktop environments, and with Windows too, no matter how fast the CPU is. Also, a browser is hardly a test of speed. I've used netscape 4.x on a 486 with linux, it's not too bad. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 8:12:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrami.homeunix.org (cvg-65-27-234-39.cinci.rr.com [65.27.234.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC13F37B406; Fri, 24 May 2002 08:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by mrami.homeunix.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4OFCf121599; Fri, 24 May 2002 11:12:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 May 2002, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 22 May 2002 at 9:28:38 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 11:28 AM +0930 2002/05/22, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > >> That presupposes that pronunciation of words is a function of the > >> language spoken. For words which don't belong to the language, this > >> doesn't make any sense. > > > > I disagree. So long as the word appears to be pronounceable in a > > particular language, then I believe that most people who speak that > > language will probably try to pronounce it according to the customs > > of their native language. > > Assuming they recognize the word or its derivation. If we're talking about pronouncing a written word, it goes through two filters: 1) what rules am I going to use to translate these markings into a set of sounds in my head (which will be determined by the individual's knowledge of different spelling rules, knowledge of context of the word, etc.), and 2) what rules am I going to use to translate this set of sounds in my head into tounge/lip/throat movements (which will be filtered by the kinds of sounds the speaker is used to making, aka accent). If we're talking about repeating a spoken word, it again goes through two filters: 1) what sounds am I used to differentiating, and 2) what sounds am I used to making. To demonstrate #1, my Dad cannot hear the difference between Sri Lanka (pronounced 'sree') and Sri Lanka (pronounced 'shree'). He is not used to trying to tell the difference, because that is not a minimal pair in his ideolect of American English, the only dialect he speaks. Therefore when he says Sri Lanka, it always comes out 'shree', which is one of the many differences from what a native would say. Marc. -- I telnetted to whitehouse.gov, and all I got was this lousy .signature! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 8:33:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7C637B404; Fri, 24 May 2002 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4OFXXp85299 ; Fri, 24 May 2002 17:33:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA06702 ; Fri, 24 May 2002 17:33:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:33:31 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Marc Ramirez Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org>; from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org on Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:12:40AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc Ramirez said on May 24, 2002 at 11:12:40: > If we're talking about repeating a spoken word, it again goes through two > filters: 1) what sounds am I used to differentiating, and 2) what sounds > am I used to making. To demonstrate #1, my Dad cannot hear the difference > between Sri Lanka (pronounced 'sree') and Sri Lanka (pronounced 'shree'). > He is not used to trying to tell the difference, because that is not a > minimal pair in his ideolect of American English, the only dialect he > speaks. Therefore when he says Sri Lanka, it always comes out 'shree', > which is one of the many differences from what a native would say. I don't know how Sri Lankans say it, but most people in India would say "shree". In the devanagari script (which is used for Sanskrit, which is where the word originates) the corresponding letter is one of the two "sh" letters to which I referred earlier (the "s" letter is different). In the Tamil script, the same letter serves for "s", "sh", and "ch" (though there is are special letters sometimes used for "s" and "sh" in words imported from Sanskrit), and Tamil speakers tend to use the three sounds interchangeably. I don't know about Sinhalese, which uses a quite different script, though (visually, at least) closer to Tamil than to Devanagari. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 9:43:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tesla.foo.is (tesla.reverse-bias.org [217.151.166.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F44237B400 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from there (eniac.foo.is [192.168.1.25]) by tesla.foo.is (Postfix) with SMTP id A7AF52744; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:43:29 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Baldur Gislason To: j mckitrick Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:43:21 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524150005.A67875@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20020524150005.A67875@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020524164329.A7AF52744@tesla.foo.is> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Netscape 4.6 was FreeBSD native, Linux binary compatibility works fine for most programs, but of course native is nicer ;) Baldur On Friday 24 May 2002 14:00, you wrote: > On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:43:49PM +0300, Imre Oolberg wrote: > | Hi! > | > | By the way, being a admirerer of FreeBSD i got a following question, is > | there any good browser for FreeBSD which doest expect system to have > | Linux emu? Netscape, Mozilla, Opera the all need that emu? > > Some time ago, there was a native FreeBSD Netscape. I believe it was > around version 4.5 or so. It didn't do well with plugins, but it was > nice to have because it didn't need Linux emulation. I finally caved > under the pressure, installed Linux compatibility, and now I don't worry > about it any more. It's worth having Java, RealPlayer, and Flash > without any problems. > > > jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 14:39:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrami.homeunix.org (cvg-65-27-234-39.cinci.rr.com [65.27.234.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7E337B403; Fri, 24 May 2002 14:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by mrami.homeunix.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4OLd9L00700; Fri, 24 May 2002 17:39:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org) Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:39:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , Subject: Re: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20020524173415.F625-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Marc Ramirez said on May 24, 2002 at 11:12:40: > > If we're talking about repeating a spoken word, it again goes through two > > filters: 1) what sounds am I used to differentiating, and 2) what sounds > > am I used to making. To demonstrate #1, my Dad cannot hear the difference > > between Sri Lanka (pronounced 'sree') and Sri Lanka (pronounced 'shree'). > > He is not used to trying to tell the difference, because that is not a > > minimal pair in his ideolect of American English, the only dialect he > > speaks. Therefore when he says Sri Lanka, it always comes out 'shree', > > which is one of the many differences from what a native would say. > > I don't know how Sri Lankans say it, but most people in India would > say "shree". As far as I can tell (from three sources besides my head, one is at http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0846407.html), in Sinhalese, "Sri Lanka" starts with the /sr/ in "bus route". Marc. -- I telnetted to whitehouse.gov, and all I got was this lousy .signature! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 16:42:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70B537B400; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4NBl8F02249; Thu, 23 May 2002 07:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:07:56 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:32 AM +0200 2002/05/23, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Well, if it's Brussel, Brad shouldn't be worried about the United > States being the EU :) I happen to live in the commune of Ixelles, which is primarily French-speaking, although they are officially dual-language. This is a real pisser when you get some moron down at the police station that takes an attitude like "you must speak French in order to exist!" and refuses to acknowledge that Flemish would be an acceptable alternative. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 16:42:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A5B37B403; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4NBkxF02240; Thu, 23 May 2002 07:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:05:10 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:15 AM +0200 2002/05/23, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Bruxelles in French, Brussel in Flemish. French is the primary > language there. Officially, Brussels is dual-language (although Belgium has three official languages, the third being German to cover the far eastern-most portion of the country for about 5% of the total population of Belgium), and language dominance varies by commune. Moreover, there is also a language native to Brussels that is neither French nor Flemish, and is spoken mainly by the residents of the oldest part of town, in the Marolles. Of course, all of this is ignoring the fact that more than 25% of the population of Belgium are ex-pats, most coming from either the UK or the US, and in Brussels the numbers are closer to 40%. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 16:43:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BBA3E37B403 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 0102172075 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 19:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:31:54 -0700 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > By the way, being a admirerer of FreeBSD i got a following question, is > > there any good browser for FreeBSD which doest expect system to have Linux > > emu? Netscape, Mozilla, Opera the all need that emu? > > Mozilla works fine natively, except the plugins. There is now a > native java plugin but not in binary form, you need 700 MB disk space > and a few hours to compile it. I haven't tried it. There is also the > GPL flash plugin in the ports, and for other plugins there's > ports/www/plugger, neither of which I've tried either. Personally I > see nothing wrong in using linux emulation. In fact I have linux as > dual-boot on that machine, so I just mount the linux partition as > /compat/linux, make a few symlinks for mozilla and away I go (but > mostly I use konqueror natively under FreeBSD, I don't need plugins). > I totally abandoned netscape 4.x around 6 months ago; I'd mostly > abandoned it over a year ago. > > > > But they were all blown away by how fast Netscape on FreeBSD worked. My > > > machine blew away a P3-500 running Windows. I'm sure having 160 megs of > > > RAM didn't hurt, > > That could be the major factor, actually. A machine with only 16 MB > of RAM will crawl with most of today's software and desktop > environments, and with Windows too, no matter how fast the CPU is. > Also, a browser is hardly a test of speed. I've used netscape 4.x on > a 486 with linux, it's not too bad. > > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I really like Galeon, but it doesn't have mail or news. What impresses me the most about FreeBSD are the people involved. I've been trying out some Linux distos but I always get turned off by the mailing lists. That was not true 5 years ago when I was running SuSE. Now, I've gotten a "haircut" on the OpenBSD list from Theo, but for good reasons :) I just find the Linux lists arrogant. Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 17:53:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333E937B400 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 17:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4295081478; Sat, 25 May 2002 10:23:14 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 10:23:14 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Belgian languages (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020525102314.J9046@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 23 May 2002 at 13:05:10 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:15 AM +0200 2002/05/23, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> Bruxelles in French, Brussel in Flemish. French is the primary >> language there. > > Officially, Brussels is dual-language (although Belgium has three > official languages, the third being German to cover the far > eastern-most portion of the country for about 5% of the total > population of Belgium), and language dominance varies by commune. > Moreover, there is also a language native to Brussels that is neither > French nor Flemish, and is spoken mainly by the residents of the > oldest part of town, in the Marolles. I haven't heard of this one. What's it related to? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 18: 6:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B91037B40A for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5CD2781478; Sat, 25 May 2002 10:36:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 10:36:45 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 24 May 2002 at 17:33:31 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Marc Ramirez said on May 24, 2002 at 11:12:40: >> If we're talking about repeating a spoken word, it again goes through two >> filters: 1) what sounds am I used to differentiating, and 2) what sounds >> am I used to making. To demonstrate #1, my Dad cannot hear the difference >> between Sri Lanka (pronounced 'sree') and Sri Lanka (pronounced 'shree'). >> He is not used to trying to tell the difference, because that is not a >> minimal pair in his ideolect of American English, the only dialect he >> speaks. Therefore when he says Sri Lanka, it always comes out 'shree', >> which is one of the many differences from what a native would say. > > I don't know how Sri Lankans say it, but most people in India would > say "shree". In the devanagari script (which is used for Sanskrit, > which is where the word originates) the corresponding letter is one > of the two "sh" letters to which I referred earlier (the "s" letter > is different). In the Tamil script, the same letter serves for "s", > "sh", and "ch" (though there is are special letters sometimes used > for "s" and "sh" in words imported from Sanskrit), and Tamil > speakers tend to use the three sounds interchangeably. I don't know > about Sinhalese, which uses a quite different script, though > (visually, at least) closer to Tamil than to Devanagari. My understanding was that Singhalese is an Aryan language, whereas Tamil is Dravidian. It doesn't have to have much bearing on the matter, but it would make it more plausible that Singhalese would pronounce it the Aryan way. FWIW, "Sri" in Malay is pronounced with an s, not an sh. Malay contains a large number of words ultimately derived from Sanskrit, and often has difficulty adapting, so "Sri" is often spelt "Seri", with an unaccented e (schwa). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 19: 3:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F305437B409; Fri, 24 May 2002 19:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4P232H05283; Sat, 25 May 2002 04:03:02 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020525102314.J9046@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525102314.J9046@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 04:02:39 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Belgian languages (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 AM +0930 2002/05/25, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I haven't heard of this one. What's it related to? I believe that it is related to French, but is quite a bit different from "normal" Belgian French -- i.e., it diverged from French French a while back, but I'm not a linguist so I can't really describe it any better than that. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 19:36:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6CB37B403 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 19:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b166.otenet.gr [212.205.244.174]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4P2aSuW005050; Sat, 25 May 2002 05:36:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4P2aQRV011938; Sat, 25 May 2002 05:36:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4P2aN9o011937; Sat, 25 May 2002 05:36:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 05:36:21 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: rob Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20020525023620.GA11854@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-24 16:31, rob wrote: > What impresses me the most about FreeBSD are the people involved. > I've been trying out some Linux distos but I always get turned off > by the mailing lists. That was not true 5 years ago when I was > running SuSE. > Now, I've gotten a "haircut" on the OpenBSD list from Theo, but for good > reasons :) I just find the Linux lists arrogant. Rob. Amazingly enough, this seems to be one of the essential first steps towards abandoning Linux for BSD. Theo, it would seem, has a particularly potent charm that gets more people in the BSD world. Which is cool :) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 20:34:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDB937B406 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 20:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.226.34] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A5FC342026A; Fri, 24 May 2002 22:33:16 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c2039d$036e3c20$22e2910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Nils Holland" Cc: Subject: Re: The Road Ahead? Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:34:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Probably not the best etiquette to dredge this up, as it's a week or so old now (though it WAS an enjoyable and invigorating thread), but this just hit me, maybe because these days I'm spending more time *fixing* computers and less time *using* them... >So far about what has happened. The question, however, is what we can learn >from it. Basically, I believe that the computer industry is in serious >danger - Moore's Law seems to be self-destructing. What I mean by this? >Well, seriously, if I go to a computer shop these days, then I will find a >whole lot of hyper-fast machines, but for an ordinary user, these probably >wouldn't make much sense. If a 500 Mhz machine sits 90% idle while someone >writes a letter of surfs the web, then why should he upgrade to a 2000 Mhz >one? Maybe I'm not an ordinary user. I have a Windoze box at 475MHz, and during the process of recording and/or mixing multitrack audio, I *very often* wish for faster processors, memory, disk access, protocols, etc., etc., etc., Latency, underruns, and just sitting there while it spends 98% of its processing power doing a task....although computers can process M + MIPS, I still get bored *waiting*. Anyone who's ever built world on a Pentium 90 can relate to that, and I'm told that in many countries 'round the globe a 486DX will still bring a good price. E-mail? (or is it email?---but that's another thread)... any box'll do. But there are some valid reasons to have a "Need for speed...." Nils, if you find yourself with an extra 2GHz CPU floating around, ship it to Missouri. ;-) Coffee's on me this time, Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 21: 8:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D360737B405 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 21:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-160-171.dial.proxad.net [62.147.160.171]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D918320E for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 06:08:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1460 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 03:25:13 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 05:25:13 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525032513.GA1425@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 25, 2002 at 10:36:45: > My understanding was that Singhalese is an Aryan language, whereas > Tamil is Dravidian. It doesn't have to have much bearing on the > matter, but it would make it more plausible that Singhalese would > pronounce it the Aryan way. It's however also quite likely that the pronunciation has evolved/changed significantly in Sinhalese. Many Hindi speakers today have problems saying "sh" and convert it to "s"; they also have problems with two consonants succeeding each other. So they not only convert English words like "school" to "ischool", but also Sanskrit-origin Hindi words like "stree" ("woman") to "istree" -- somewhat like Spanish speakers perhaps, except that they will still write it "stree" and sophisticated speakers will pronounce it that way too. Most amusingly, "station" often becomes something like "tesan." And a name like "Krishna" becomes "Krishan", "Kishan" or even "Kissan". Bengali speakers on the other hand cannot say "s" but always convert it to "sh" (and have a whole range of other peculiarities in speech). There is a tendency in India to be contemptuous of all this and say that the Sanskrit pronunciation is the "true" pronunciation, but I think that's a bit elitist; in fact, after looking at European languages, each of which thoroughly distorts Latin words in a different way (especially French, which makes them nearly unrecognizable sometimes), I think Indian languages have stayed comparatively true to "pure" Sanskrit. Anyway, if the Sri Lankans pronounce it "Sri" and not "Shri", I'm willing to accept that as the "correct" pronunciation for their country... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 21:34:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E1237B404 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 21:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 19EBF816E7; Sat, 25 May 2002 14:04:32 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 14:04:32 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525140432.B84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020525032513.GA1425@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525032513.GA1425@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 5:25:13 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 25, 2002 at 10:36:45: >> My understanding was that Singhalese is an Aryan language, whereas >> Tamil is Dravidian. It doesn't have to have much bearing on the >> matter, but it would make it more plausible that Singhalese would >> pronounce it the Aryan way. > > It's however also quite likely that the pronunciation has > evolved/changed significantly in Sinhalese. Sure. > Many Hindi speakers today have problems saying "sh" and convert it > to "s"; they also have problems with two consonants succeeding each > other. So they not only convert English words like "school" to > "ischool", but also Sanskrit-origin Hindi words like "stree" > ("woman") to "istree" Interesting. The Malays have gone one step further and pronounce it "isteri" (meaning "wife"). Again, the voiceless "e". > somewhat like Spanish speakers perhaps, except that they will still > write it "stree" and sophisticated speakers will pronounce it that > way too. Most amusingly, "station" often becomes something like > "tesan." And a name like "Krishna" Wasn't that originally Krsna, with a fluid instead of a vowel? > becomes "Krishan", "Kishan" or even "Kissan". Yes, I've heard plenty of those. > Bengali speakers on the other hand cannot say "s" but always convert > it to "sh" (and have a whole range of other peculiarities in > speech). > > There is a tendency in India to be contemptuous of all this and say > that the Sanskrit pronunciation is the "true" pronunciation, but I > think that's a bit elitist; in fact, after looking at European > languages, each of which thoroughly distorts Latin words in a > different way (especially French, which makes them nearly > unrecognizable sometimes), I think Indian languages have stayed > comparatively true to "pure" Sanskrit. Hmm. There are other issues apart from pronunciation. I believe the grammar has diverged considerably both in India and in Europe (interestingly giving rise to excessive use of the present participle both in English and in Hindi IIRC). > Anyway, if the Sri Lankans pronounce it "Sri" and not "Shri", I'm > willing to accept that as the "correct" pronunciation for their > country... Sure, I wasn't trying to tell them how to pronounce it, just trying to guess how they do (and if that's yet another point on which the Tamils and Singhalese don't see eye to eye). I have a Tamil friend who grew up in the North, and who then emigrated to Singapore. He tells me that the Tamil spoken in Singapore (where it is one of the four national languages) is quite different from the language spoken in Tamil Nadu. In particular, it retains more Aryan words, whereas in Tamil Nadu they try to replace them with Tamil-derived words. It rather reminds me of the difference between Flemish and Dutch :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 21:52:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0792F37B408 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 21:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-139-249.dial.proxad.net [62.147.139.249]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D1AAB194 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 06:52:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1766 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 04:52:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 06:52:37 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020525032513.GA1425@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525140432.B84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525140432.B84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 25, 2002 at 14:04:32: > > Many Hindi speakers today have problems saying "sh" and convert it > > to "s"; they also have problems with two consonants succeeding each > > other. So they not only convert English words like "school" to > > "ischool", but also Sanskrit-origin Hindi words like "stree" > > ("woman") to "istree" > > Interesting. The Malays have gone one step further and pronounce it > "isteri" (meaning "wife"). Again, the voiceless "e". The Malay language is also called "Bahasa" I believe, and so is the related Indonesian language. "Bhasha" means "language" in Sanskrit and most other Indian languages. I found that a semi-Malay relative of mine was unaware of that origin. > > "tesan." And a name like "Krishna" > > Wasn't that originally Krsna, with a fluid instead of a vowel? Yes, it should be written Krshna (the sh is one of the two Sanskrit sh letters, the one in "Sri" being the other one). The Sanskrit "s" is the letter in "stree" for "woman". But in English it's usually spelt "Krishna", perhaps for easy pronunciation. > Hmm. There are other issues apart from pronunciation. I believe the > grammar has diverged considerably both in India and in Europe > (interestingly giving rise to excessive use of the present participle > both in English and in Hindi IIRC). True, I don't know much about Sanskrit grammar but it seems totally different from any modern language. There aren't separate words for prepositions, declensions, etc, they're all modified forms of the noun. Also, as in German, compound words are formed from simple words, and indeed an entire line is frequently written as a single word. It seemed initially strange to me that in French there is no distinction between "I go" and "I am going" -- both are "je vais" but now that I think of it, the same is true of Sanskrit. > language spoken in Tamil Nadu. In particular, it retains more Aryan > words, whereas in Tamil Nadu they try to replace them with > Tamil-derived words. It rather reminds me of the difference between > Flemish and Dutch :-) Hm, I've heard that Sri Lankan Tamil is much "purer" than the Tamil Nadu version because it has *less* Sanskrit influence... There is indeed a movement to get rid of the non-Dravidian words in Tamil, but I don't know to what extent it has been successful, and certainly I don't think it looks like a worthwhile exercise. The other thing about Tamil in Tamil Nadu is that the written language, or the formal spoken language, is *very* different from the informal spoken language; I'm reasonably comfortable in the informal version but can barely understand the formal version, having always lived in non-Tamil-speaking regions. I'm told that the divergence between the two forms is not so sharp in Sri Lanka, and indeed I have some trouble understanding Sri Lankan Tamils. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 22:25:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D6837B401 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 22:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-141-235.dial.proxad.net [62.147.141.235]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89EF091 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 07:25:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1898 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 05:25:39 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 07:25:39 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525052539.GA1871@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on May 25, 2002 at 06:52:36: > > > "tesan." And a name like "Krishna" > > > > Wasn't that originally Krsna, with a fluid instead of a vowel? > > Yes, it should be written Krshna (the sh is one of the two Sanskrit > sh letters, And now that you mention it, "Sanskrit" too is really "Sanskrta" with no vowel after the "r", and a short "a" after the "t". And while we're on that subject :) the "l" in "Tamil" is not an "l", but a sound which doesn't have an exact equivalent in other languages (except Malayalam). It's something between an "l", an unrolled "r" and a "y" -- perhaps something like the Japanese "l/r" sound. It's sometimes transliterated "zh" in English but that's even more unlike the true sound than "l". - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 22:35:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6052637B40A for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 22:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 56DA1812EA; Sat, 25 May 2002 15:05:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 15:05:19 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525150519.D84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020525032513.GA1425@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525140432.B84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 6:52:37 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 25, 2002 at 14:04:32: >>> Many Hindi speakers today have problems saying "sh" and convert it >>> to "s"; they also have problems with two consonants succeeding each >>> other. So they not only convert English words like "school" to >>> "ischool", but also Sanskrit-origin Hindi words like "stree" >>> ("woman") to "istree" >> >> Interesting. The Malays have gone one step further and pronounce it >> "isteri" (meaning "wife"). Again, the voiceless "e". > > The Malay language is also called "Bahasa" I believe, and so is the > related Indonesian language. Well, no. I don't know where people got this idea from. > "Bhasha" means "language" in Sanskrit and most other Indian > languages. I found that a semi-Malay relative of mine was unaware > of that origin. As I said, Malay (and Indonesian, which is really the same language) have a large number of Sanskrit-derived terms, probably via Pali or some other newer language. "Bahasa" means "language" in Malay and Indonesian as well, so "Bahasa Melayu" means "Malay language". Dropping the "Melayu" makes the name completely ambiguous. Of course, this isn't only the fault of people who don't speak the language. When I was a kid, it was called "Bahasa Melayu". After independence, they started calling it the national language (bahasa kebangsaan, derived from another Sanskrit word which I can't find in my vocabulary; the Malay word is Bangsa, meaning nation). Later still they decided to make it clear that everybody should speak Malay (though the majority of people in Malaysia did not speak it natively) and called it Bahasa Malaysia. Since the Indonesians call their language Bahasa Indonesia, it's easy to see how people might think that the language itself was called Bahasa. >> Hmm. There are other issues apart from pronunciation. I believe the >> grammar has diverged considerably both in India and in Europe >> (interestingly giving rise to excessive use of the present participle >> both in English and in Hindi IIRC). > > True, I don't know much about Sanskrit grammar but it seems totally > different from any modern language. There are strong similarities in Greek, German and Russian. > There aren't separate words for prepositions, declensions, etc, > they're all modified forms of the noun. Right, all Indo-European languages were like that until about 1500 years ago. > Also, as in German, compound words are formed from simple words, and > indeed an entire line is frequently written as a single word. This is just a matter of orthography. The German word "Elektronenaufenthaltswahrscheinlichkeit" could be translated into English as "Electron Location Probability". That's three words in English and only one in German, but in reality it wouldn't make any difference to the German pronunciation if it were written "Elektronen Aufenthalts Wahrscheinlichkeit", and people often do write things this way out of habit with English. I think it looks terrible, simply because it's in conflict with spelling rules, but it has nothing to do with the way things are pronounced. > It seemed initially strange to me that in French there is no > distinction between "I go" and "I am going" -- both are "je vais" > but now that I think of it, the same is true of Sanskrit. And just about all Indo-European languages except (I think) English, Hindi and Russian. Verbs have developed considerably in the last 2000 years, which is one of the reasons why they're so different in different languages. Since you've taken "to go" as the example, let's look at the various forms, though it's not the most regular of verbs in any language: Sanskrit Greek Latin German English emi eimi oo gehe ga eshi ei is gehst gæst eti eisi it geht gæþ ivah ithah iton itah iton imah imen imus gehen gaþ itha ite itis geht gaþ yanti easi eunt gehen gaþ The dual forms don't exist in the other languages. You can see what's happened here: in Sanskrit, Latin and Greek the endings are enough to tell you the difference between "I go", "we go" and "they go". In German, it's almost possible, but not quite ("we go" and "they go" are the same), while even in Old English the situation is even worse. You'll also note a considerable similarity between Sanskrit, Latin and Greek. >> language spoken in Tamil Nadu. In particular, it retains more Aryan >> words, whereas in Tamil Nadu they try to replace them with >> Tamil-derived words. It rather reminds me of the difference between >> Flemish and Dutch :-) > > Hm, I've heard that Sri Lankan Tamil is much "purer" than the Tamil > Nadu version because it has *less* Sanskrit influence... Yes, this would make sense too. > There is indeed a movement to get rid of the non-Dravidian words in > Tamil, but I don't know to what extent it has been successful, Well, Kumar told me that there's a noticeable difference. I don't know if he's been to Sri Lanka. > and certainly I don't think it looks like a worthwhile exercise. Nor I. > The other thing about Tamil in Tamil Nadu is that the written > language, or the formal spoken language, is *very* different from > the informal spoken language; I'm reasonably comfortable in the > informal version but can barely understand the formal version, > having always lived in non-Tamil-speaking regions. Hmm. You sound like Kumar. What's your native language? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 22:36:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F75037B401 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 22:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 544228149B; Sat, 25 May 2002 15:06:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 15:06:43 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525150643.E84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525052539.GA1871@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525052539.GA1871@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 7:25:39 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan said on May 25, 2002 at 06:52:36: >>>> "tesan." And a name like "Krishna" >>> >>> Wasn't that originally Krsna, with a fluid instead of a vowel? >> >> Yes, it should be written Krshna (the sh is one of the two Sanskrit >> sh letters, > > And now that you mention it, "Sanskrit" too is really "Sanskrta" with > no vowel after the "r", and a short "a" after the "t". Yes, I knew that :-) > And while we're on that subject :) the "l" in "Tamil" is not an "l", > but a sound which doesn't have an exact equivalent in other > languages (except Malayalam). It's something between an "l", an > unrolled "r" and a "y" -- perhaps something like the Japanese "l/r" > sound. It's sometimes transliterated "zh" in English but that's > even more unlike the true sound than "l". But I didn't know that. Considering the amount of contact I've had with Tamil people (I used to speak English with a Tamil accent), that surprises me. I wonder if that's one of the differences between India and Malaysia. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 23:54:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A3D37B401; Fri, 24 May 2002 23:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0089.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.89] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17BVRq-0006DV-00; Fri, 24 May 2002 23:54:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3CEF350C.78035DCF@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:54:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) References: <20020525052539.GA1871@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > And while we're on that subject :) the "l" in "Tamil" is not an "l", > but a sound which doesn't have an exact equivalent in other languages > (except Malayalam). It's something between an "l", an unrolled "r" > and a "y" -- perhaps something like the Japanese "l/r" sound. It's > sometimes transliterated "zh" in English but that's even more unlike > the true sound than "l". I was going to say "r in Japanese and zh in Mongolian"... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 0:57:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foo31-146.visit.se (foo31-146.visit.se [62.119.31.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF0737B404; Sat, 25 May 2002 00:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by foo31-146.visit.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 84D776AB1F; Sat, 25 May 2002 09:57:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 09:57:41 +0200 From: Martin Karlsson To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Karlsson , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KsGdsel6WgEHnImy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5970 BE22 2C33 4D8F 53FD 7E34 66FF 9332 9C92 4660 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Brad Knowles [2002-05-23 13.07 +0200]: >=20 > I happen to live in the commune of Ixelles, which is primarily=20 > French-speaking, although they are officially dual-language. >=20 > This is a real pisser when you get some moron down at the police=20 > station that takes an attitude like "you must speak French in order=20 > to exist!" and refuses to acknowledge that Flemish would be an=20 > acceptable alternative. =20 My Swedish-speaking relatives in (dual-language) Finland tell me similar things. It seems legislation isn't enough when people just don't want to admit that the other language is an alternative. Do you think the "weaker" language in such situations will exist in, say 50 years? --=20 Martin Karlsson _ GPG/PGP public key: 0x9C924660 ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) -against HTML, vCards and X -proprietary attachments in e-mail / \ --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE870PzZv+TMpySRmARAjeIAKCmvmqEbsufFiaZ5dvATn9XmDZBuwCfbgWA eZ2T88VBgvKtcM1+C2orTC0= =QgYK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 1:24:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF32337B409 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 09EA1812EA; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:53:37 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 17:53:37 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Martin Karlsson , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 9:57:41 +0200, Martin Karlsson wrote: > * Brad Knowles [2002-05-23 13.07 +0200]: >> >> I happen to live in the commune of Ixelles, which is primarily >> French-speaking, although they are officially dual-language. >> >> This is a real pisser when you get some moron down at the police >> station that takes an attitude like "you must speak French in order >> to exist!" and refuses to acknowledge that Flemish would be an >> acceptable alternative. > > My Swedish-speaking relatives in (dual-language) Finland tell me > similar things. It seems legislation isn't enough when people just > don't want to admit that the other language is an alternative. > > Do you think the "weaker" language in such situations will exist in, > say 50 years? Definitely. Not too many European languages are dying out any more. Some are coming back. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 2:28:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3994D37B407 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 02:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-132-158.dial.proxad.net [62.147.132.158]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0394525 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 11:28:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 2158 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 09:25:36 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 11:25:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525092536.GA2133@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522182914.I45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020524110009.T21090-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> <20020524173331.A5683@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525103645.A52737@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020525032513.GA1425@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525140432.B84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525150519.D84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525150519.D84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 25, 2002 at 15:05:19: > This is just a matter of orthography. The German word > "Elektronenaufenthaltswahrscheinlichkeit" could be translated into > English as "Electron Location Probability". That's three words in > English and only one in German, but in reality it wouldn't make any > difference to the German pronunciation if it were written "Elektronen > Aufenthalts Wahrscheinlichkeit", It makes a difference in Sanskrit if the first word ends with a vowel (most nouns end with a short a) and the second word begins with a vowel; there are rules for how to combine the vowels. (There are such rules for consonants too, but I think those are usually straightforward.) eg, "katha" + "upanishad" = "kathopanishad", etc. I believe in some cases it can also lead to actual ambiguities about where to split the compound sentence: the same sentence can be interpreted in two contradictory ways. But I'm not enough of a scholar to supply an example. > > The other thing about Tamil in Tamil Nadu is that the written > > language, or the formal spoken language, is *very* different from > > the informal spoken language; I'm reasonably comfortable in the > > informal version but can barely understand the formal version, > > having always lived in non-Tamil-speaking regions. > > Hmm. You sound like Kumar. What's your native language? Tamil. It's what we spoke at home but I never learned it formally. My "best language" is English, which is, for better or worse, not an uncommon situation in urban India. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 2:34: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7407837B404 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 02:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-132-158.dial.proxad.net [62.147.132.158]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2947418287 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 11:34:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 2219 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 09:33:58 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 11:33:58 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Marc Ramirez , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Aryan and Dravidian (was: French, Flemish and English (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c)) Message-ID: <20020525093358.GA2031@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020525045236.GA1722@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525052539.GA1871@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525150643.E84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525150643.E84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 25, 2002 at 15:06:43: > > > And while we're on that subject :) the "l" in "Tamil" is not an "l", > > but a sound which doesn't have an exact equivalent in other > > languages (except Malayalam). It's something between an "l", an > > unrolled "r" and a "y" -- perhaps something like the Japanese "l/r" > > sound. It's sometimes transliterated "zh" in English but that's > > even more unlike the true sound than "l". > > But I didn't know that. Considering the amount of contact I've had > with Tamil people (I used to speak English with a Tamil accent), that > surprises me. I wonder if that's one of the differences between India > and Malaysia. Interesting. It is a very common letter in Tamil, looks something like this: _ | / \ | | | L__|_/ __/ different from the "l" letter (actually, the two "l" letters, one "l" as in "tall" with the tongue nearer the teeth, and one "l" as in "gold" with the tongue deeper inside the mouth). Lots of words use it, eg fruit (palam/pazham), way (vazhi), etc. However, people from Karnataka (local language Kannada), when speaking Tamil, often substitute "l" for this sound. Perhaps that's what happened in Malaysia. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 5:29:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBE337B403; Sat, 25 May 2002 05:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4PCSxk04753; Sat, 25 May 2002 14:29:01 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 14:24:00 +0200 To: Martin Karlsson , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:57 AM +0200 2002/05/25, Martin Karlsson wrote: > Do you think the "weaker" language in such situations will exist in, > say 50 years? I would say that Dutch and Flemish are likely to continue to exist for a long time, whereas I have more questions about French. The reason is that both old and young speakers of Dutch and Flemish tend to be pretty multi-lingual, and while they may speak, understand, read, and write English as well as or better than many "native" English speakers, they also have a strong interest in keeping their language alive. In contrast, I have met many older French speakers that could not speak English at all and apparently had no interest in doing so, but many younger French speakers tend to speak English pretty easily but also seem to be less interested in keeping to the strict rules dictated by l'Academie Française (or the equivalent in their country), and seem to be less interested in keeping the French language itself alive. I think that Dutch and Flemish are likely to survive for quite some time to come, because they recognize that their language is a minority and are willing to adapt their personal communication habits to accommodate a majority language (such as English) while also making a concerted effort to keep their minority language alive. OTOH, many older French-speakers seem to be less willing to recognize that their language is no longer the "Lingua Franca" of the world and continue to live in blissful ignorance, while other French speakers no longer seem to care and are more willing to abandon their language. It'll be really interesting to see what happens in fifty years. In the meanwhile, we can only prognosticate. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 6:19:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B03237B401 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 06:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-133-181.dial.proxad.net [62.147.133.181]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC8227D for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 15:19:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 3136 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 13:17:24 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 15:17:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Martin Karlsson , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 25, 2002 at 14:24:00: > many younger French speakers tend to speak English pretty easily but > also seem to be less interested in keeping to the strict rules > dictated by l'Academie Française (or the equivalent in their > country), That's probably a sign of health. You yourself implied that some time back (you called the control by the Académie a sign of a dead language). > and seem to be less interested in keeping the French > language itself alive. I don't see any evidence of that, in France anyway. True, many younger people speak good English, but not in preference to French -- only out of necessity when dealing with foreigners. And they still prefer to speak French if the foreigners know French too. France is a big country and, even outside France, French is a popular and admired language. An import of a few foreign words, even if against the wishes of the Académie, will not destroy it, any more than the import of all those French words over the centuries have destroyed English. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 8:36:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6622937B406 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 08:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 031242637 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 11:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CEFAEF3.334A666E@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 08:34:12 -0700 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525023620.GA11854@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2002-05-24 16:31, rob wrote: > > What impresses me the most about FreeBSD are the people involved. > > I've been trying out some Linux distos but I always get turned off > > by the mailing lists. That was not true 5 years ago when I was > > running SuSE. > > > Now, I've gotten a "haircut" on the OpenBSD list from Theo, but for good > > reasons :) I just find the Linux lists arrogant. Rob. > > Amazingly enough, this seems to be one of the essential first steps > towards abandoning Linux for BSD. Theo, it would seem, has a > particularly potent charm that gets more people in the BSD world. > > Which is cool :) > > - Giorgos Yes, I really like OpenBSD but no more room on my laptop. I bit the bullet and installed -current by cvsup from 4.5-Release. So I now have -stable slice and -current slice. I figured I can at least test and send in bug reports on my Viao FX-290. So far, the only major bug it that it won't recognize my cdrw. Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 8:51:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA4037B406 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 08:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4PFpnp42721 ; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:51:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA70122 ; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:51:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 17:51:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: rob Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com>; from rob@pythonemproject.com on Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:31:54PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rob said on May 24, 2002 at 16:31:54: [snip entire quote of irrelevant mail] > Now, I've gotten a "haircut" on the OpenBSD list from Theo, but for good > reasons :) Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before getting to your point... Rahul [1] though I'm sure it does - just rtfm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 10:48: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0770F37B400; Sat, 25 May 2002 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4PHlaT20784; Sat, 25 May 2002 19:47:38 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 18:50:07 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: Martin Karlsson , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:17 PM +0200 2002/05/25, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > France is a big country and, even outside France, French is a popular > and admired language. An import of a few foreign words, even if > against the wishes of the Académie, will not destroy it, any more than > the import of all those French words over the centuries have destroyed > English. It's not the importation of foreign words into French. It's that more and more younger people have stopped caring about French as dictated by l'Academie Française, and the older generation will die off. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 11:11:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0A137B400 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 11:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-11-62-147-116-7.dial.proxad.net [62.147.116.7]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D6D180EE for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 20:11:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1234 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2002 18:11:34 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 20:11:33 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [cc trimmed] Brad Knowles said on May 25, 2002 at 18:50:07: > > and admired language. An import of a few foreign words, even if > > against the wishes of the Académie, will not destroy it > It's not the importation of foreign words into French. It's that > more and more younger people have stopped caring about French as > dictated by l'Academie Française, and the older generation will die > off. Sure - but why do you doubt that French will survive? English has never had an Académie Anglaise, and it has survived fine. So have most other languages. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 12:57:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A8E37B406 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 12:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a185.otenet.gr [212.205.215.185]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4PJvJuW005663; Sat, 25 May 2002 22:57:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4PJvJFM007376; Sat, 25 May 2002 22:57:19 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4PJvEWc007264; Sat, 25 May 2002 22:57:15 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 22:57:05 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <20020525195704.GA92081@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-25 20:11, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brad Knowles said on May 25, 2002 at 18:50:07: > > > and admired language. An import of a few foreign words, even if > > > against the wishes of the Acad?mie, will not destroy it > > > It's not the importation of foreign words into French. It's that > > more and more younger people have stopped caring about French as > > dictated by l'Academie Fran?aise, and the older generation will die > > off. > > Sure - but why do you doubt that French will survive? English has > never had an Acad?mie Anglaise, and it has survived fine. So have > most other languages. I will agree that languages do not die that easily. The way I see it, it is more likely that a different ``French'', which accepts and extends parts of other languages, will be the outcome of all that Brad describes. Younger people are in contact with people from all over the world, and are constantly changing their manners, the way they speak. On a similar subject, a lot of articles in the Greek press are quick in their judgement of this, stating that young people "will eventually kill the language". I am a bit more optimistic. The language will improve, it will evolve & mutate, change, be extended, and continue the long process that started thousands of years ago. This is far from "the death" of the language. This is evolution :) -- Giorgos Keramidas - http://www.FreeBSD.org keramida@FreeBSD.org - The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 17:22: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6F237B400 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C5B568148E; Sun, 26 May 2002 09:51:59 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 09:51:59 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: French dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526095159.A58955@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 18:50:07 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:17 PM +0200 2002/05/25, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> France is a big country and, even outside France, French is a popular >> and admired language. An import of a few foreign words, even if >> against the wishes of the Académie, will not destroy it, any more than >> the import of all those French words over the centuries have destroyed >> English. > > It's not the importation of foreign words into French. It's that > more and more younger people have stopped caring about French as > dictated by l'Academie Française, and the older generation will die > off. There's not a chance in hell that French will die off, or even become unimportant, in our lifetimes. And young people have been ignoring the Académie Française for generations. What the Académie has done is to provide fertile feeding grounds for argot. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 17:23:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275DB37B405 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 17:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4F4CB81469; Sun, 26 May 2002 09:53:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 09:53:42 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Greek dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526095342.B58955@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525195704.GA92081@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525195704.GA92081@hades.hell.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 22:57:05 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-05-25 20:11, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> Brad Knowles said on May 25, 2002 at 18:50:07: >>>> and admired language. An import of a few foreign words, even if >>>> against the wishes of the Acad?mie, will not destroy it >> >>> It's not the importation of foreign words into French. It's that >>> more and more younger people have stopped caring about French as >>> dictated by l'Academie Fran?aise, and the older generation will die >>> off. >> >> Sure - but why do you doubt that French will survive? English has >> never had an Acad?mie Anglaise, and it has survived fine. So have >> most other languages. > > I will agree that languages do not die that easily. The way I see it, > it is more likely that a different ``French'', which accepts and > extends parts of other languages, will be the outcome of all that Brad > describes. Younger people are in contact with people from all over > the world, and are constantly changing their manners, the way they > speak. > > On a similar subject, a lot of articles in the Greek press are quick > in their judgement of this, stating that young people "will eventually > kill the language". I am a bit more optimistic. The language will > improve, it will evolve & mutate, change, be extended, and continue > the long process that started thousands of years ago. This is far > from "the death" of the language. This is evolution :) Of all the languages I know, Greek is the second closest to what it was 2,500 years ago. Evolution will go towards harmonizing the language with other European languages. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 18: 1:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286B637B405 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 18:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4Q10vk22321; Sun, 26 May 2002 03:00:59 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 00:59:42 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:11 PM +0200 2002/05/25, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Sure - but why do you doubt that French will survive? English has > never had an Académie Anglaise, and it has survived fine. So have > most other languages. English is a living language and is continuing to naturally evolve. The older French-speaking people seem to be inflexible and unwilling to learn English (or any other foreign language), while the younger French-speaking people seem to care a lot less about the French language (as a whole). The trend seems to be pretty obvious. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 18:28:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C25037B406 for ; Sat, 25 May 2002 18:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 924178148E; Sun, 26 May 2002 10:58:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 10:58:23 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: English dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 26 May 2002 at 0:59:42 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:11 PM +0200 2002/05/25, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> Sure - but why do you doubt that French will survive? English has >> never had an Académie Anglaise, and it has survived fine. So have >> most other languages. > > English is a living language and is continuing to naturally > evolve. The older French-speaking people seem to be inflexible and > unwilling to learn English (or any other foreign language), while the > younger French-speaking people seem to care a lot less about the > French language (as a whole). > > The trend seems to be pretty obvious. The older English-speaking people seem to be inflexible and unwilling to learn French (or any other foreign language), while the younger English-speaking people seem to care a lot less about the English language (as a whole). So what's the trend? Seriously, I think you're so far from the truth here that I'm surprised. Most people in any country don't look on their language as something special. They're certainly not overly interested in learning another language, and that's the reason that very few of these languages are going to die out. There may be some cases where the speakers of the language are in such a small minority that they're forced to speak another language in order to communicate, but that's obviously not the case in France or Finland. A language that might die out is Romansh, spoken only in remote parts of the Swiss Canton Graubünden (also known as Grisons). In this case, native speakers also need to speak German in order to communicate, and they probably see a lot more German speakers than other Romansh speakers. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message