From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 0:46:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE00737B405; Sun, 26 May 2002 00:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4Q7k7k04774; Sun, 26 May 2002 09:46:07 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 09:31:57 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: English dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:58 AM +0930 2002/05/26, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > The older English-speaking people seem to be inflexible and unwilling > to learn French (or any other foreign language), while the younger > English-speaking people seem to care a lot less about the English > language (as a whole). > > So what's the trend? Are the younger English-speaking people not paying as much attention to the language? Are they tending to learn other languages instead of spending extra time learning English? Are they tending to ignore the rules by which the language has "lived" for hundreds of years? While I might concede the first point, I certainly will not concede the other two, yet I see those things happening with French. > Most people in any country don't look on their language as > something special. They're certainly not overly interested in > learning another language, and that's the reason that very few of > these languages are going to die out. From what I've seen, the Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people in particular are extremely sensitive to the fact that there are so few people in the world that speak their language, and they tend to learn other languages, as well as going well out of their way to keep their own language alive. Indeed, they will frequently learn multiple dialects of their language. It is this concerted effort by the masses (young and old alike) that I feel will be sufficient to help ensure that these languages don't die out. And this is precisely what I *don't* see happening with French -- while the old people may be trying to keep the language "alive", the young people largely couldn't seem to care less, and certainly there is no concerted effort by the masses to keep it "alive". The Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people seem to consider their language a point of pride, whereas the French-speaking people (that is, the ones who care) seem only to be largely offended by the fact that it is no longer the "Lingua Franca" of the world. One is a positive feeling towards their language and the place it has in the world, and one is a negative feeling. Generally speaking, people are attracted to positive feelings and repelled by negative feelings. If population A is small but vigorous and adaptive, and population B is larger but sluggish and indifferent, which do you think is more likely to survive when assaulted by an external and extremely powerful force? Sure, it may take some time for population B to finally die out, and there is the chance that it might wake up and take a more active approach towards survival, but if nothing else changes then it will only be a matter of time before they are gone or so completely assimilated as to be effectively gone. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 1: 4:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B286037B405 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 01:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3B1C28148E; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:34:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:34:19 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: English dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526173419.G43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 26 May 2002 at 9:31:57 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:58 AM +0930 2002/05/26, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> The older English-speaking people seem to be inflexible and unwilling >> to learn French (or any other foreign language), while the younger >> English-speaking people seem to care a lot less about the English >> language (as a whole). >> >> So what's the trend? > > Are the younger English-speaking people not paying as much > attention to the language? Are they tending to learn other languages > instead of spending extra time learning English? Yes, definitely (though they're not doing very much of either). > Are they tending to ignore the rules by which the language has > "lived" for hundreds of years? Most definitely. I first went to England 40 years ago. In that time, the spoken language has changed dramatically (for the worse AFAIC). I haven't seen a corresponding change in French. > While I might concede the first point, I certainly will not > concede the other two, yet I see those things happening with French. Well, first you live in Belgium, not in France, and the rules are different there. Secondly, I contend that the French speaking people you mix with are not typical of French society. I don't know too many French people who are interested in learning other languages (though it's quite possible that the Waloons are different here). >> Most people in any country don't look on their language as >> something special. They're certainly not overly interested in >> learning another language, and that's the reason that very few of >> these languages are going to die out. > > From what I've seen, the Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people in > particular are extremely sensitive to the fact that there are so few > people in the world that speak their language, and they tend to learn > other languages, as well as going well out of their way to keep their > own language alive. Indeed, they will frequently learn multiple > dialects of their language. Agreed. It's exactly this attempt to protect their languages which will stop it from dying out. > It is this concerted effort by the masses (young and old > alike) that I feel will be sufficient to help ensure that these > languages don't die out. And this is precisely what I *don't* see > happening with French -- while the old people may be trying to keep > the language "alive", the young people largely couldn't seem to care > less, and certainly there is no concerted effort by the masses to > keep it "alive". Yes, but do you see this in English? French is much more widely spoken than Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian put together. It's not in any danger, and people don't see it as such. > The Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people seem to consider their > language a point of pride, whereas the French-speaking people (that > is, the ones who care) seem only to be largely offended by the fact > that it is no longer the "Lingua Franca" of the world. Again, I think this is partially showing your perspective. The French people I know are very proud of their language. > If population A is small but vigorous and adaptive, and > population B is larger but sluggish and indifferent, which do you > think is more likely to survive when assaulted by an external and > extremely powerful force? That depends on what we're talking about. Given that the Western European languages have been around in recognizable form for 1000 years, despite outside influences and occupations, I don't see any mismatch of power causing them to go away quickly. Indeed, the existence of so many dialects speaks against that. > Sure, it may take some time for population B to finally die > out, and there is the chance that it might wake up and take a more > active approach towards survival, but if nothing else changes then > it will only be a matter of time before they are gone or so > completely assimilated as to be effectively gone. This happens so seldom that it's barely worth mentioning. Which language spoken by more than 5000 people has gone extinct in your experience? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 2:11: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDF437B413; Sun, 26 May 2002 02:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.11] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.19) with ESMTP id g4Q9AHT05692; Sun, 26 May 2002 11:10:20 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020526173419.G43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526173419.G43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:09:27 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: English dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:34 PM +0930 2002/05/26, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Are they tending to ignore the rules by which the language has >> "lived" for hundreds of years? > > Most definitely. I first went to England 40 years ago. In that time, > the spoken language has changed dramatically (for the worse AFAIC). As I said, I conceded this point. However, this is part of the natural evolution of English. This sort of thing has happened ever since it first became a recognizable separate language, and will probably continue until the day it dies. The same cannot be said for French, because French is rigidly defined by one and only one institution in the world -- l'Academie Française. To the degree that people are ignoring l'Academie, is the degree to which French is dying (if it's not already technically dead simply by virtue of having a governing body rigidly defining the language), and passing into an archaic form. The modern forms of "French" are diverging enough to where they should no longer be called "French" at all, or even dialects of French, but instead simply by their dialectic name. So, instead of Cajun French, Quebecoise French, Wallonian French, etc... we instead drop the "French" appellation altogether. > Well, first you live in Belgium, not in France, and the rules are > different there. Secondly, I contend that the French speaking people > you mix with are not typical of French society. I don't know too many > French people who are interested in learning other languages (though > it's quite possible that the Waloons are different here). That's French French, and even that is evolving away from l'Academie. > Agreed. It's exactly this attempt to protect their languages which > will stop it from dying out. Right. That's not happening at the same grass-roots level with French. No, they have l'Academie, which people are tending to ignore more and more often. > Yes, but do you see this in English? French is much more widely > spoken than Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian put > together. It's not in any danger, and people don't see it as such. Sorry. You can't lump all forms of French into one basket. Cajun, Quebecoise, Wallonian, Swiss French, Korean French, they're all diverging enough from even the French French that is itself diverging from the Archaic form defined by l'Academie that you can't just throw them all into the same group any more. Indeed, this same sort of thing is tending to happen in English as well, as more and more people around the world learn this language instead of, or in addition to, any other language(s) that they might have available to them. All the people in the world who speak, write, read, and understand English make their own contribution to the natural evolution of the language. Something which, by the definition of l'Academie Française, most definitely does *NOT* occur with "French". > Again, I think this is partially showing your perspective. The French > people I know are very proud of their language. How do they demonstrate this pride? Can they all go into encyclopedic depths as to the various differences of the way French is spoken in different parts of Paris, or at least different parts of France, not to mention the world? Virtually every Dutch speaker I've ever met knows multiple dialects of Dutch, can tell you what the differences are, can tell you where the differences occur on a regional/geographical basis, and can then leap into comparison and contrast of all the various local dialects and their differences as compared to other forms of the language outside their country, as well as other languages inside the country (e.g., Frisian) and other related languages outside the country (e.g., German). Same thing for the Flemish speakers I've met. Could you randomly pick out Frenchmen & Frenchwomen from the streets and have a reasonable expectation that they could have an in-depth discussion of this sort with other knowledgeable people around the world? Do they all tend to be at least amateur language scholars? > That depends on what we're talking about. Given that the Western > European languages have been around in recognizable form for 1000 > years, despite outside influences and occupations, I don't see any > mismatch of power causing them to go away quickly. Indeed, the > existence of so many dialects speaks against that. We're facing an increasing globalization of culture and language, and this trend does not seem to be slowing down. If anything, it seems to be accelerating. Languages and cultures will be swept away, if the people do not recognize their relative position in the world and adapt in a manner so as to co-exist with this globalization, while also working to preserve the things that make their language and culture unique. The way I see it, the Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people (among others) see this coming, and are preparing. Contrariwise, the French people seem to be largely ignorant of what is happening, and of those who are not ignorant, they just want to stick their heads back into the sand. An ant colony will likely survive being run over by a tank, especially if they are alert and most of them move out of the way. But Ghu help the ignorant elephant who chooses to be deaf, dumb, and blind. > This happens so seldom that it's barely worth mentioning. Which > language spoken by more than 5000 people has gone extinct in your > experience? Choose any native american language that has ever existed. How many have survived? Why have they survived? What kind of adaptations in the population were necessary to allow them to survive? How many of these kinds of adaptations are you seeing in French-speaking people? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 2:41:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foo31-146.visit.se (foo31-146.visit.se [62.119.31.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC0337B400; Sun, 26 May 2002 02:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by foo31-146.visit.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 289276AB1F; Sun, 26 May 2002 11:41:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:41:06 +0200 From: Martin Karlsson To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Karlsson , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5970 BE22 2C33 4D8F 53FD 7E34 66FF 9332 9C92 4660 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Greg 'groggy' Lehey [2002-05-25 17.53 +0930]: > On Saturday, 25 May 2002 at 9:57:41 +0200, Martin Karlsson wrote: > > Do you think the "weaker" language in such situations will exist in, > > say 50 years? >=20 > Definitely. Not too many European languages are dying out any more. > Some are coming back. But sometimes there's (for historical reasons) a certain amount of animosity between the speakers of the two languages, and when the minority language really _is_ spoken by a minority (say 5% of the population), this, quite naturally causes "linguistic friction". There are studies that show that a speaker of a minority language tends to be sentenced to harsher punishments, for instance. If one writes to some kind of authority, asking for a permit or whatnot, chances are that the request will simply be ignored, either because the receiver doesn't understand the writers language, or because he/she doesn't _want_ to understand I don't think minority languages will survive all by themelves. If one wants to speak a minority language, one will have to fight for the right to do so. example: There are three indigenous ethnic groups in Sweden: Swedes, Lapps and Finns, but only one official language, Swedish. I think this will remain like it is, simply because it would be too expensive (for the government) to provide services in Finnish or Lapp. Thinking of this makes me feel ashamed of my country. --=20 Martin Karlsson GPG/PGP public key: 0x9C924660 --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE88K2xZv+TMpySRmARApaYAJ9EFuIVy14atmXwd+vRYMY5868hgQCeIZr4 ckhtD2o+3a0ekaNQAFPX7OQ= =rD0s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 9:16:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23C4B37B404 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 09:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2906 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2002 16:16:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:16:41 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... In-Reply-To: <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > rob said on May 24, 2002 at 16:31:54: > [snip entire quote of irrelevant mail] > > Now, I've gotten a "haircut" on the OpenBSD list from Theo, but for good > > reasons :) > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > getting to your point... If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 10:39:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4432137B403 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-62-147-145-219.dial.proxad.net [62.147.145.219]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB035FA78 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:39:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 288 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 17:39:50 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:39:50 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 11:16:41: > > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > > getting to your point... > > If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's > been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. If you receive more that around 20 emails a day, *some* form of quoting is essential, otherwise keeping track will be impossible. My remark, about the mail client not letting you delete lines, was not meant to be serious -- I certainly hope such a thing doesn't exist. Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but bottom quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do it, among other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real world". One could even argue that it's in line with standard practice in snail-mail: if you're including a copy of the original letter in your reply, you'll place it below your reply while stapling them together, not above. So I think bottom-quoting is not the best thing, but it's not too bad; the main drawback is wasting bandwidth. Top-quoting an entire mail, on the other hand, serves only to annoy the reader. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 11:19:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FE0937B400 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 11:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32248 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2002 18:19:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 13:19:18 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) In-Reply-To: <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 11:16:41: > > > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > > > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > > > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > > > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > > > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > > > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > > > getting to your point... > > If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's > > been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. > If you receive more that around 20 emails a day, *some* form of > quoting is essential, otherwise keeping track will be impossible. If you get fewer than 100 emails a day, quoting is irrelevant, as you can pretty trivially find the old message in your mailbox. If you can't, you need a better mail reader. When you get more than 100 a day, you want to shoot anyone that doesn't do at least minimal editing for wasting your time and money. > My > remark, about the mail client not letting you delete lines, was not > meant to be serious -- I certainly hope such a thing doesn't exist. > Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but bottom > quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do it, among > other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real world". If by "real world", you mean "clueless computer users", I'd agree with that. If you mean the world of communication on dead trees, then I've never seen anyone so rude and thoughtless as to quote an entire message verbatim. Wasting trees is even worse than wasting bandwidth. > Top-quoting an entire mail, on the other hand, serves only to annoy > the reader. I'd say that was true about quoting the entire message verbatim, no matter where you put it. If the text you're including isn't important enough to edit, it isn't important enough to send. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 11:35: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3366F37B403 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 11:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-62-147-149-178.dial.proxad.net [62.147.149.178]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAE7AB5C1 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:35:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 517 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 18:35:04 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 20:35:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > My remark, about the mail client not letting you delete lines, was > > not meant to be serious -- I certainly hope such a thing doesn't > > exist. Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but > > bottom quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do > > it, among other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real > > world". > > If by "real world", you mean "clueless computer users", I'd agree > with that. Since you hang around the -current and -hackers lists, I imagine you've seen several such "clueless computer users" there. Some of whom are significant contributors to the project. Now I'm scared for the future of FreeBSD. You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not forced to look at it. If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in anyone's style. Here are some in yours. Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 13:19:18: > In <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: Is it really necessary to quote the message ID, sender's name *and* sender's address in the attribution line, thus causing it to overflow the margin? What happened to the "keep to 72 characters" rule? > > > > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > > > > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > > > > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > > > > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > > > > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > > > > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > > > > getting to your point... > > > If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's > > > been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. > > If you receive more that around 20 emails a day, *some* form of > > quoting is essential, otherwise keeping track will be impossible. How about adding a few spaces between those lines, to distinguish paragraphs more clearly? A carriage-return character wouldn't consume significant bandwidth and it would make the whole thing much more readable. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 12: 3:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049BD37B405 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 12:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-62-147-150-150.dial.proxad.net [62.147.150.150]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDB8AB587 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 21:03:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 709 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 19:03:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 21:03:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020526190324.GA690@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on survival of small languages may be interested in this article: http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 12:12:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DBD37B400 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 12:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4QJAss28576; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:10:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:10:54 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss In-Reply-To: <20020526190324.GA690@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Huh? On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on > survival of small languages may be interested in this article: > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 > > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 12:13:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6FD37B404 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 12:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4QJ0s027724; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:00:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:00:54 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) In-Reply-To: <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > My remark, about the mail client not letting you delete lines, was > > > not meant to be serious -- I certainly hope such a thing doesn't > > > exist. Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but > > > bottom quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do > > > it, among other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real > > > world". > > > > If by "real world", you mean "clueless computer users", I'd agree > > with that. > > Since you hang around the -current and -hackers lists, I imagine > you've seen several such "clueless computer users" there. Some of > whom are significant contributors to the project. Now I'm scared for > the future of FreeBSD. > > You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the > bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an > entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not > forced to look at it. > > If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in > anyone's style. Here are some in yours. > > Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 13:19:18: > > In <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > > Is it really necessary to quote the message ID, sender's name *and* > sender's address in the attribution line, thus causing it to overflow > the margin? What happened to the "keep to 72 characters" rule? > > > > > > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > > > > > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > > > > > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > > > > > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > > > > > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > > > > > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > > > > > getting to your point... > > > > If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's > > > > been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. > > > If you receive more that around 20 emails a day, *some* form of > > > quoting is essential, otherwise keeping track will be impossible. > > How about adding a few spaces between those lines, to distinguish > paragraphs more clearly? A carriage-return character wouldn't consume > significant bandwidth and it would make the whole thing much more > readable. > > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > LoL @ RaHule. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 12:31:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E259A37B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 12:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF3D3FCAC; Sun, 26 May 2002 21:31:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from flynn@localhost) by energyhq.homeip.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4QJVk5P067645; Sun, 26 May 2002 21:31:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 21:31:46 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020526213146.A67586@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:35:04PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:35:04PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Hi, > > > it, among other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real > > > world". =20 > >=20 > > If by "real world", you mean "clueless computer users", I'd agree > > with that. LMAO @ that. But I'd give that Torvalds is clueless, it took him 10 years to discover CVS :-P > You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the > bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an > entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not > forced to look at it. Both bottom-quote and top-quote are *horrible*. I find it very annoying and common among OutLook users to send me an answer and my whole original mail at the bottom. I think I know what I wrote :) > Is it really necessary to quote the message ID, sender's name *and* > sender's address in the attribution line, thus causing it to overflow > the margin? What happened to the "keep to 72 characters" rule? Heh, touche. > How about adding a few spaces between those lines, to distinguish > paragraphs more clearly? A carriage-return character wouldn't consume > significant bandwidth and it would make the whole thing much more > readable.=20 Mutt shows different quotation levels in different colours. No big deal. Perhaps you need a decent MUA :) This thread is now completely useless, but I like some trolling now and then as much as the next guy :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE88TginLctrNyFFPERAhxxAJ9sm0fxMbUSw85NqGy55mtVtvFoDQCfSaFW xhTlqyAJbNWs506M8lQqMOk= =CIU5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 14:53:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A4F937B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 14:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 40330 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2002 21:53:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15601.22866.542982.337526@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:53:22 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) In-Reply-To: <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > > > My remark, about the mail client not letting you delete lines, was > > > not meant to be serious -- I certainly hope such a thing doesn't > > > exist. Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but > > > bottom quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do > > > it, among other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real > > > world". > > If by "real world", you mean "clueless computer users", I'd agree > > with that. > Since you hang around the -current and -hackers lists, I imagine > you've seen several such "clueless computer users" there. Some of > whom are significant contributors to the project. Yes, I've seen a few clueless people on -hackers and -current. I've also seen people who know what they're doing, and recognize those rare occasions when top posting is acceptable. Encouraging someone who hasn't yet figured out how to edit quoted text to top post because you're bothered by having to skim the quoted block is sort of like teaching your two-year old to defecate on the sidewalk to avoid having to change diapers. Sure, it solves your problem. But it leaves turds all over the place for the rest of us to deal with. Much better to teach them to edit quotes, probably starting with not bothering to include a quote at all. > Now I'm scared for the future of FreeBSD. Anyone who's watched FreeBSD for a while realize that social skills - not defecating on public property, not top posting, and similar behaviors that benefit the public good - are unrelated to coding skills. Committers need the latter, not the former. So don't worry. > You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the > bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an > entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not > forced to look at it. I haven't felt like saying why top-posting - by whatever name it's called - is a bad idea because those reasons are easily found on the web. So you can avoid having to do a little research, the main reason is that it destroys the chronological order of a discussion. > If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in > anyone's style. Here are some in yours. > > Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 13:19:18: > > In <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Is it really necessary to quote the message ID, sender's name *and* > sender's address in the attribution line, thus causing it to overflow > the margin? Yes, they're all required. Failing to provide any of them is simply rude, and can cause problems getting answers to people on the freebsd mail lists. > > > > > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > > > > > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > > > > > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > > > > > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > > > > > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > > > > > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > > > > > getting to your point... > > > > If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's > > > > been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. > > > If you receive more that around 20 emails a day, *some* form of > > > quoting is essential, otherwise keeping track will be impossible. > How about adding a few spaces between those lines, to distinguish > paragraphs more clearly? A carriage-return character wouldn't consume > significant bandwidth and it would make the whole thing much more > readable. Feel free. Personally, I format quoted material to minimize vertical space - which is in line with the goal originall given for top posting in this thread - not to make it easy to read. I don't expect most people to read that text at all. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 14:55:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D36E37B400 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 14:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 40395 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2002 21:55:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15601.22974.163162.941094@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:55:10 -0500 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) In-Reply-To: <20020526213146.A67586@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <20020526213146.A67586@energyhq.homeip.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020526213146.A67586@energyhq.homeip.net>, Miguel Mendez typed: > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:35:04PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the > > bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an > > entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not > > forced to look at it. > Both bottom-quote and top-quote are *horrible*. I find it very annoying > and common among OutLook users to send me an answer and my whole > original mail at the bottom. I think I know what I wrote :) Yup. People who don't edit the text at all are the worst sinners. Encouraging them to adopt a bad habit - top posting - instead of a good one - editing the quotes - is counterproductive. > This thread is now completely useless, but I like some trolling now and > then as much as the next guy :) This thread re-occurs at roughly three month intervals. Along with the "Why don't the lists set reply-to?" thread. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 14:57:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5125337B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 14:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 40471 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2002 21:57:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15601.23130.211488.574573@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:57:46 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) In-Reply-To: <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in > anyone's style. Here are some in yours. Note that I didn't pick on annoying factors in any particular persons style. I objected to recommending someone who hasn't yet learned good netiquette to adopt what is almost universially recognized as a *bad* habit. Minor formatting details are just that - minor formatting details. Top-posting makes it almost impossible to follow the thread of a conversation. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15: 4: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53C337B40C for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-136-39.dial.proxad.net [62.147.136.39]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D293BAB375 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:03:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1446 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 22:03:40 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:03:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020526220340.GA1413@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.23130.211488.574573@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15601.23130.211488.574573@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 16:57:46: > In <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > > If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in > > anyone's style. Here are some in yours. > > Note that I didn't pick on annoying factors in any particular persons > style. I objected to recommending someone who hasn't yet learned good > netiquette to adopt what is almost universially recognized as a *bad* > habit. Minor formatting details are just that - minor formatting > details. Top-posting makes it almost impossible to follow the thread > of a conversation. But your recommended solution for clueless newbies -- not quoting at all -- makes it totally impossible to follow the thread (without consulting archives). That was my point. I agree with your other point, that it's better to teach good habits than bad habits (but *not* by teaching them not to quote to start with). On the other hand, bottom-posting is not only very widespread, but (in my opinion) not as bad as you paint it. I myself do it when mailing other people who do it -- it keeps things more consistent. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15: 8:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB8A37B404; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C6BR-0002iZ-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:08:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:07:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Karlsson Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <3CEAE187.FC1CC966@mindspring.com> <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Martin Karlsson wrote: > But sometimes there's (for historical reasons) a certain amount of > animosity between the speakers of the two languages, and when the > minority language really _is_ spoken by a minority (say 5% of the > population), this, quite naturally causes "linguistic friction". > > There are studies that show that a speaker of a minority language > tends to be sentenced to harsher punishments, for instance. Maybe in countries where the people speaking the languages hold grudges for forever; but in the U.S., studies have shown that non-Spanish speakers don't get sentenced to harsher sentences in counties in Southern California and Miami, where Spanish is now the majority language. > If one writes to some kind of authority, asking for a permit or > whatnot, chances are that the request will simply be ignored, either > because the receiver doesn't understand the writers language, or > because he/she doesn't _want_ to understand I think that most U.S. citizens will take this as evidence that the government you are speaking of is corrupt. Using language or ethnicity (when it's even discernible) as a controlling factor in public policy administration is generally viewed as corruption, by definition, by U.S. citizens. Many parts of India, the former Russia, and Eastern European countries and the middle East have this problem. The former Russian Republics make this really obvious, now that in many of them the "dominant language" situation has become inverted. There are plenty of news reports having to deal with commerce that discuss, for example, how long it takes to get a business license in various provinces in India, if you are unwilling or unable to bribe someone. The time is measured in months or even years. It's also the general impression in the U.S. -- among the educated who have access to news sources other than television -- that most of the former Russia is under the control of the Russian Mafia, and that the rule of law is practically suspended. In the worst areas of the U.S., the amount of time is three weeks (that's the same three weeks for everyone: it's bureaucracy). In Singapore, you can turn around the same application in a single day, and be in business in your shop in the mall the next day -- regardless of the language you speak. You can blame this on language conflicts, or the ethnic conflicts that are at the root of differences in language... a common example held up in this regard is Cypress, with the division of the Island between two opposed political forces, Turkish and Greek. But the real answer is non-uniform enforcement of the rule of law. Frankly, most people in the U.S. simply can't understand the ethnic based conflicts in various parts of the world. From the general population's point of view, it's impossible to tell an ethnic Serb from an ethnic Croat, unless one of them stands up at a podium and yells "_I_ am an _ethnic Serb_!". > I don't think minority languages will survive all by themelves. If > one wants to speak a minority language, one will have to fight for > the right to do so. > > example: There are three indigenous ethnic groups in Sweden: Swedes, > Lapps and Finns, but only one official language, Swedish. I think > this will remain like it is, simply because it would be too > expensive (for the government) to provide services in Finnish or > Lapp. Thinking of this makes me feel ashamed of my country. Counter-example: There are many ethnic groups in the United States, and there is no officially recognized language, despite the best efforts of people who want to pin it at English, so as to avoid the measurably ineffective bilingual education which occurs any place there are large immigrant populations. Eating the expense, which makes you ashamed because your country won't eat the same expense, is costing the U.S. billions upon billions of dollars in lost productivity, and is in fact entrenching the ghettoization of the people taught that way. For U.S. residents: name one professor with tenure at a U.S. University who has taught a class in which you were enrolled, and who did not speak English. Despite the benefits of adopting a single official language, in terms of transportability of a primary education to a University setting: a benefit for the students, the U.S. continues to deny that a language divide is a problem. Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have official languages, the best overall description of which is really "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to people in the U.S. (and most likely that's as much because of the fact that it ends in "stan" like "Afghanistan", as for the brush-fire conflict that flares up periodically between it and Russia). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:30:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F91537B404 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 41304 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2002 22:30:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15601.25086.46245.903887@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:30:22 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) In-Reply-To: <20020526220340.GA1413@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.23130.211488.574573@guru.mired.org> <20020526220340.GA1413@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.55 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020526220340.GA1413@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 16:57:46: > > In <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > > > If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in > > > anyone's style. Here are some in yours. > > > > Note that I didn't pick on annoying factors in any particular persons > > style. I objected to recommending someone who hasn't yet learned good > > netiquette to adopt what is almost universially recognized as a *bad* > > habit. Minor formatting details are just that - minor formatting > > details. Top-posting makes it almost impossible to follow the thread > > of a conversation. > But your recommended solution for clueless newbies -- not quoting at all > -- makes it totally impossible to follow the thread (without > consulting archives). That was my point. I disagree with your point. Unless you suffer from ADD, it's pretty easy to keep track of message threads in a conversation you're following. If you can't do that, any good MUA - or even a mediocre one - will thread messages for you. Even if you don't keep the messages around, the archives will thread them for you as well. Which makes it less work to recover the context of a message from the archies than from a message with three or four responses that blindly include the full text of the message they are responding to at every step. > I agree with your other point, that it's better to teach good habits > than bad habits (but *not* by teaching them not to quote to start > with). I just think that including the entire text of a message is a bad habit. Not quoting the message at all isn't a bad habit. If you're going to suggest simple solutions, suggest the one that's least wrong - that people don't bother quoting unless they're going to edit the quoted text for brevity. > On the other hand, bottom-posting is not only very widespread, > but (in my opinion) not as bad as you paint it. I myself do it when > mailing other people who do it -- it keeps things more consistent. Bottom posting is usually the best way to do things. It means the most recent part of the conversation is always at the bottom. Better yet, you can read the conversation chronologically by reading the message from top to bottom, rather than from near-bottom to bottom, up to next message and back down to top of the last one, and so on. When I respond to top posted messages, I typically just throw out the inclusions. They're worthless for recovering or providing context, and not worth the trouble of editing - which means they aren't worth the trouble of sending. In netiquette, as elsewhere, thinking globally and acting locally is a good thing. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:33: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E9237B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C6ZA-0007Yn-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:32:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1626D.DE01A84F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:32:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but bottom > quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do it, among > other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real world". It's really annoying, but it appears to be an artifact of how mail readers operate. IT would be nice if they did not insist on inserting blank lines at the cursor point. Netscape has three different settings for how to quote: o Start my reply above the quoted text - Insert lines before - Put cursor at top o Start my reply beow the quoted text - Insert lines after - Put cursor at bottom o Select quoted text - No lines inserted - Cursor location depends on deselection/replacement Obviously, the best possible implementation to get the quoting methodology that people seem to want is to: - No lines inserted - Put cursor at top > One could even argue that it's in line with standard practice in > snail-mail: if you're including a copy of the original letter in your > reply, you'll place it below your reply while stapling them together, > not above. So I think bottom-quoting is not the best thing, but it's > not too bad; the main drawback is wasting bandwidth. Particularly when the reason for quoting in the first place is to ensure thread continuity, which is adequately guaranteed by quoting only the part you are responding to, and maintaining proper headers, in particular, the "In-Reply-To:" header. Arguing standard practice with "snail mail" is rather ridiculous, as it's difficult or impossible to break up a letter into parts, without a lot of manual labor with scissors. > Top-quoting an entire mail, on the other hand, serves only to annoy > the reader. Quoting a message in its entirety, as a blob, whether before or after, is generally annoying, since if the thread is interesting, then the blob was already read, and your reply is addressing the entire statement, not the statement in context. The entire statement, in context, is already in context as a blob, in the mail archives and/or the readers "inbox". Technically, I've nearly quoted your entire message here, with the exception of the first two sentences, in order to give context. I could, perhaps, have left out the second sentence of the second block, or broke the block up and replied to the sentences seperately, but it had more impact the way I did it. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:38:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471BD37B405 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-138-220.dial.proxad.net [62.147.138.220]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5168E5FA71 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:38:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1604 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 22:38:52 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:38:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020526223851.GA1562@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.23130.211488.574573@guru.mired.org> <20020526220340.GA1413@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.25086.46245.903887@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15601.25086.46245.903887@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 17:30:22: > > But your recommended solution for clueless newbies -- not quoting at all > > -- makes it totally impossible to follow the thread (without > > consulting archives). That was my point. > > I disagree with your point. Unless you suffer from ADD, it's pretty > easy to keep track of message threads in a conversation you're > following. If you can't do that, any good MUA - or even a mediocre > one - will thread messages for you. What about mail archives? Those are the most important aspect of mailing lists; there are plenty of lists to which I don't subscribe but which I read online. There are clueless newbies who gratuitously change subject lines. They often use broken mail clients which don't include "References:" or "In-Reply-To:" headers, thus making threading impossible. These users are the ones most likely to bottom-quote. If you tell them not to quote at all, their mails now get stripped of all context whatever. Even if their subject lines and headers do supply threading information, it's an annoyance if their message body contains no context. > Even if you don't keep the messages around, the archives will thread > them for you as well. See above. Around 30% of the time I'm unable to follow the thread in an archive, because of broken headers or whatever. > I just think that including the entire text of a message is a bad > habit. Not quoting the message at all isn't a bad habit. Basically that's where we disagree. Quoting in full may be a bad habit, but not quoting at all, I think, is a terrible habit. A message with the subject line "Re: multimedia" and the body saying "But I already did that and it still doesn't work" devoid of context, contains no information whatever. > > On the other hand, bottom-posting is not only very widespread, > > but (in my opinion) not as bad as you paint it. I myself do it when > > mailing other people who do it -- it keeps things more consistent. > > Bottom posting is usually the best way to do things. Typo -- I meant bottom-quoting. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:47:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9592937B400 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C6nE-0004Fv-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:47:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF165D4.A7C8E6F4@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:46:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the > bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an > entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not > forced to look at it. It's annoying because it repeats a block of information which has already been seen in that form. The repeated information is only interesting if its form is broken up for the purposes of commentary. Consider that the reading of mailing lists is asynchronus. Thus, if you top-copy an entire message and respond to it, the average reader sees: Message #1 Message #1 Message #2 The bottom-quoting is also irrelevent, for two reasons; the first is similar to that above, asyncronicity: Message #1 Message #2 Message #1 The second reason is often stated as "bandwidth"; in reality, it's because the common practice is to comment on an issue *after* you have read about the issue being commented upon. Thus there is an expectation of: [] Which means that you end up re-reading all of "Message #1" following "Message #2", and then there's no payoff for having done so. You're cheating us out of further comments, after making us read because the format promises further comments, is what's annoying. If you were to type, rather than to rely on your mail client for, your signature block, then the problem would disappear. I occasionally bottom-quote. My mail client encourages the behaviour because it was written by an idiot to have three settings, all inappropriate for mailing list ettiquite, and the one that promotes bottom-quoting is the least offensive of the three. But when I do this, I always add my signature after my last statement. I have seen other people do this as well. Basically, your signature block acts as an "End Of File" marker, after which you are not continuing to request your reader's attention. I have actually seen only one instance of someone complaining about someone "bottom-quoting", with this signature marker in place (they were compalining about Mike Smith "bottom-quoting", in which he ended his reponse in the middle of a quote, but did not put two blank lines following the signature). Business letters and other so-called "snail mail" has evolved certain formate structures for the data contained therein so that people can operate with certain assumptions, thereby making their lives easier. Email has done the same, even if people have been slow to recognize this fact. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:49:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D36137B403 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-138-220.dial.proxad.net [62.147.138.220]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BD8AB244 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:49:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1677 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 22:49:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:49:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526224928.GA1520@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 15:07:41: > > There are studies that show that a speaker of a minority language > > tends to be sentenced to harsher punishments, for instance. > > Maybe in countries where the people speaking the languages hold > grudges for forever; but in the U.S., studies have shown that > non-Spanish speakers don't get sentenced to harsher sentences in > counties in Southern California and Miami, where Spanish is now > the majority language. That's an unusual situation. The question then is, is Spanish the majority languages among the judges, the jury, the lawyers? There is plenty of evidence that blacks do get harsher sentences in the US, compared to whites. > > If one writes to some kind of authority, asking for a permit or > > whatnot, chances are that the request will simply be ignored, either > > because the receiver doesn't understand the writers language, or > > because he/she doesn't _want_ to understand > > I think that most U.S. citizens will take this as evidence that the > government you are speaking of is corrupt. > > Using language or ethnicity (when it's even discernible) as a > controlling factor in public policy administration is generally viewed > as corruption, by definition, by U.S. citizens. It's favouritism, discrimination, whatever -- but corruption? Corruption is the exchange of money for favours. It's nothing to do with language or ethnicity. > There are plenty of news reports having to deal with commerce that > discuss, for example, how long it takes to get a business license > in various provinces in India, if you are unwilling or unable to > bribe someone. The time is measured in months or even years. Seems kind of irrelevant to the topic above, of discrimination against speakers of different languages. If the official in these situations is corrupt, don't imagine that it will be easier if you speak his language. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:56:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AC2037B50F for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C6sb-0006L7-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:52:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:52:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on > > survival of small languages may be interested in this article: > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 > > Huh? Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the language(s) in which you are able to think. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:57:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E30937B642 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-138-220.dial.proxad.net [62.147.138.220]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D17182C7 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:53:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1715 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 22:53:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:53:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020526225326.GB1562@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <3CF165D4.A7C8E6F4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF165D4.A7C8E6F4@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 15:46:44: > > Business letters and other so-called "snail mail" has evolved > certain formate structures for the data contained therein so > that people can operate with certain assumptions, thereby > making their lives easier. Email has done the same, even if > people have been slow to recognize this fact. Funny you should say that. All business-related or official email I receive, without exception -- secretaries, banks, officials, whatever -- uses bottom-quoting. I in turn bottom-quote when I reply to them. That's what they're used to, they operate with that assumption, and it makes their lives easier (as you nicely put it) -- while I'm used to both forms so it doesn't matter to me. (Exception: when I'm replying to a very specific point which is a small part of their long mail, I top-quote that point.) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 15:57:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D06737B733 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 15:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-138-220.dial.proxad.net [62.147.138.220]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC17DAB4EC for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:56:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1775 invoked by uid 1001); 26 May 2002 22:56:02 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:56:02 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 15:52:18: > > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 > > > > Huh? > > Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > language(s) in which you are able to think. We don't think in languages -- we think abstractly. That is why one is sometimes at a loss for the "mot juste" -- you know what you want to say but not how to say it. That's also why babies can learn a language in the first place. I also think in a language (various languages, depending on the situation), but then I'm basically "talking to myself" -- repeating a thought which has already been formulated. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16: 1:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C333137B85D for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C6zf-0004Cz-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:00:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF168D9.CFA486A1@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 15:59:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.23130.211488.574573@guru.mired.org> <20020526220340.GA1413@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But your recommended solution for clueless newbies -- not quoting at all > -- makes it totally impossible to follow the thread (without > consulting archives). That was my point. That's only true if you do things that you aren't supposed to do, like increasing the audience beyond its initial scope to be pissy. For example, everyone who is receiving this email already received the email to which it is a reply. So whether the reference is in a mailbox, or in an archive, as long as they are both date-ordered, the will occur in the proper flow order. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16:25: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134AB37B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C7Nd-0000YN-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:24:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF16EA6.32B8802F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:24:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> <20020526224928.GA1520@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 15:07:41: > > > There are studies that show that a speaker of a minority language > > > tends to be sentenced to harsher punishments, for instance. > > > > Maybe in countries where the people speaking the languages hold > > grudges for forever; but in the U.S., studies have shown that > > non-Spanish speakers don't get sentenced to harsher sentences in > > counties in Southern California and Miami, where Spanish is now > > the majority language. > > That's an unusual situation. The question then is, is Spanish the > majority languages among the judges, the jury, the lawyers? Your statement was a blanket statement. If you want to correct it now, you can. The lawyers don't matter so much as the judges and the jury. The jury is of one's peers, and is selected more or less at random from civic record -- voting, driver's license, and other means of establishing identity and location to the state, which the state can then leverage to track you down and force you to serve on a jury. So really, the only argument you have is one of judges. For the most part, judges are elected. In the cases they are not, then the judges are political appointees by people who *are* elected. In my area of the U.S., in the last election, it was possible to obtain ballots in English, Spanish, and Chinese. There were also people available to provide translations for anyone who did not fall into those categories or was otherwise illiterate in one of those three languages, yet still entitled to vote by virtue of (a) breathing and (b) not having committed a felony and (c) having U.S. citizenship. > There is plenty of evidence that blacks do get harsher sentences in > the US, compared to whites. You can get the same numbers relative to economic status. The numbers based on economic status, in fact, have a better correlation than those based on ethnicity: poor people get harsher sentences, regardless of their ethnicity. It's not *about* ethnicity: it's about affording the best defense, relative to the ability of the state to spend money on their offense. It's also true that the lower your income, the more dire your straights, and the less you have at risk when deciding whether or not to commit a crime: I'm convinced that many people avoid committing crimes because "they don't want to lose their stuff". Not a strong argument in favor of civil obedience, unless you happen to "have stuff". I also know Republicans and other otherwise "conservative" people who are in favor of taxes for redistribution of wealth. In effect, they are willing to "pay people to nopt take their stuff". > > > If one writes to some kind of authority, asking for a permit or > > > whatnot, chances are that the request will simply be ignored, either > > > because the receiver doesn't understand the writers language, or > > > because he/she doesn't _want_ to understand > > > > I think that most U.S. citizens will take this as evidence that the > > government you are speaking of is corrupt. > > > > Using language or ethnicity (when it's even discernible) as a > > controlling factor in public policy administration is generally viewed > > as corruption, by definition, by U.S. citizens. > > It's favouritism, discrimination, whatever -- but corruption? > Corruption is the exchange of money for favours. It's nothing to do > with language or ethnicity. Corruption does not require the involvement of money. It may be the result of discriumination or favoritisim. Your premise was that the receiver didn't "_want_ to understand"; either your first premise was worng, or your new premise, "It's nothing to do with language or ethnicity" os wrong. Pick one. > > There are plenty of news reports having to deal with commerce that > > discuss, for example, how long it takes to get a business license > > in various provinces in India, if you are unwilling or unable to > > bribe someone. The time is measured in months or even years. > > Seems kind of irrelevant to the topic above, of discrimination against > speakers of different languages. If the official in these situations > is corrupt, don't imagine that it will be easier if you speak his > language. Your premise is that there is discrimination against speakers of different languages. My premise is that you are dealing with corrupt assholes (pardon my dying French), and it really doesn't matter to me if the bribe takes the form of monetary remuneration, or of remuneration in the form of reenforcement of ethnic roles (or the lack thereof) which is desired by the corrupt person. It's also always easier to bribe someone if there is a common language which both parties understand, since it doesn't require that you trust a translator with your secret. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16:28:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40DAD37B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C7RF-0003uJ-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:28:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF16F86.A6E241B0@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:28:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> <3CF165D4.A7C8E6F4@mindspring.com> <20020526225326.GB1562@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 15:46:44: > > Business letters and other so-called "snail mail" has evolved > > certain formate structures for the data contained therein so > > that people can operate with certain assumptions, thereby > > making their lives easier. Email has done the same, even if > > people have been slow to recognize this fact. > > Funny you should say that. All business-related or official email I > receive, without exception -- secretaries, banks, officials, whatever > -- uses bottom-quoting. I in turn bottom-quote when I reply to them. > That's what they're used to, they operate with that assumption, and it > makes their lives easier (as you nicely put it) -- while I'm used to > both forms so it doesn't matter to me. (Exception: when I'm replying > to a very specific point which is a small part of their long mail, I > top-quote that point.) You are wrong. I said "business letters", not "business email". We are talking about ettiquite in archived email discussions, not ettiquite in physical letters. Also not that I have already made the point that email style is often dictated by tools, rather than by appropriateness to the task. I would argue that the bottom-quoting you are seeing is an artifact of the mail user agent being used by these people, which I would wager is Microsoft Outlook, since you have identified these people as business persons. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16:42:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B8337B404 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4QNJmH49217; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:19:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:19:48 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss In-Reply-To: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 26 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: > > On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on > > > survival of small languages may be interested in this article: > > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 > > > > Huh? > > Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > language(s) in which you are able to think. > > -- Terry > No, it isn't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16:46:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7F637B400 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C7ip-0002cX-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF173C7.8EC49B13@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:46:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 15:52:18: > > Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > > language(s) in which you are able to think. > > We don't think in languages -- we think abstractly. That is why one > is sometimes at a loss for the "mot juste" -- you know what you want > to say but not how to say it. I am only at such a loss when I "lose" a word. This is a rare occurance, but it does happen. I will spend as much time as necessary to "find" it again. It's also why I tend to use certain sentence forms and word selections which people might consider archaic: I communicate what I intend to communicate, and my word choice is made to maximize the precision of the message which I intend to communicate. This is also why I get so annoyed when people blur the definition of words like "freedom" and "liberty", since it seems to me that they are trying to eradicate a concept by covert subversion of the meaning of the word which best exemplifies the concept. > That's also why babies can learn a language in the first place. The much vaunted "plasticity" of a babies brain to new language is in reality the training of the neural networks which run our square wave discrimination (hearing). People do not have any more trouble learning a new language at an older age than they would have had at a younger age, except when the new language contains sounds that are indistinguishable from one another, due to the training of their discriminator functions. This is actually the primary reason that the Japanese were unable to decode the messages routed via the Navajo "code talkers": there are a number of sounds in Navajo which are distinct to the native speakers, whose brains were trained at an early age to specifically distinguish them. Brains lacking such training are unable to make the distinction, and thus see homonyms where none exist. A number of these external-observer-apparent homonyms are central to the language. Modern electronic instruments have no problem discriminating them from recorded waveforms. Modern ears continue to have problems, unless they are modern Navajo ears. 8-). > I also think in a language (various languages, depending on the > situation), but then I'm basically "talking to myself" -- repeating > a thought which has already been formulated. Perhaps I've read too much, or perhaps I'm thinking more in terms of abstract conceptualization, which I would argue requires the use of words. But I generally think in terms of words, even for simple concepts like "I'm hungry". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16:50: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B614037B403 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0341.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.86] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17C7lu-00057V-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:49:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:49:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > On Sun, 26 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > pgreen wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on > > > > survival of small languages may be interested in this article: > > > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 > > > > > > Huh? > > > > Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > > language(s) in which you are able to think. > > No, it isn't. Provide a counter example. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 16:56:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail2.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4541137B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 16:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greid.oriel.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.146.151] helo=sobek.lan) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 17C7sV-0000Ty-02; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:56:47 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4QNuld50109; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:56:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from george.reid@comlab.ox.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to george.reid@comlab.ox.ac.uk using -f Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:56:47 +0100 From: George Reid To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 04:49:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 04:49:26PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Provide a counter example. Provide a proof. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 17:10:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DE0B37B406 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 0102468637 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CF1790F.4D372B54@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:08:47 -0700 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry, I will do better with email quoting. I've used email since 1986, and this is the first time anyone complained. But I understand the reasoning. Thanks, Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 17:12:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D83D37B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 17:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4R03dJ51780; Sun, 26 May 2002 20:03:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 20:03:39 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss In-Reply-To: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 26 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: > > On Sun, 26 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > pgreen wrote: > > > > On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on > > > > > survival of small languages may be interested in this article: > > > > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 > > > > > > > > Huh? > > > > > > Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > > > language(s) in which you are able to think. > > > > No, it isn't. > > Provide a counter example. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Well, you have to think counter-unpartisanly. For example, using Ruminov's Ruminition, you can think of any idea, regardless of linguistical barriers. For example, let's say an Episcipitalian wishes to know how to know. By using Ruminov's Ruminition, he is able to: A) Think, purely using emotions, a language inate in any human, of the children. B) This, of course, leads to only one conclusion: 1) Anything can be known, in the context of one's reality. Thus, we see how anything can be thunk, regardeless of any so-called language. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 18:16: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D009337B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 18:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8956581337; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:45:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:45:58 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 26 May 2002 at 16:49:26 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: >> On Sun, 26 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> pgreen wrote: >>>> On Sun, 26 May 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >>>>> Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on >>>>> survival of small languages may be interested in this article: >>>>> http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 >>>> >>>> Huh? >>> >>> Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the >>> language(s) in which you are able to think. >> >> No, it isn't. > > Provide a counter example. Done. Of course, I can't communicate it to you, because to do that I would have to put it in language. Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into language is too slow for your own thoughts. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 19:17:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [193.124.215.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6816937B403; Sun, 26 May 2002 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from drweb by mail.nsu.ru with drweb-scanned (Exim 3.20 #1) id 17CA3K-0002Nq-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:16:06 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru ([193.124.210.26]) by mail.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 17CA3K-0002Ne-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:16:06 +0700 Received: (from danfe@localhost) by regency.nsu.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4R2Gq453009; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:16:52 +0700 (NOVST) (envelope-from danfe) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 09:16:51 +0700 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Terry Lambert Cc: Martin Karlsson , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020527091651.A39265@regency.nsu.ru> References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700 X-Envelope-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org, andrsn@ANDRSN.STANFORD.EDU, rsidd@online.fr, brad.knowles@skynet.be, grog@FreeBSD.ORG, martin.karlsson@visit.se, tlambert2@mindspring.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have > official languages, the best overall description of which is really > "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to Actually, "Khazakstan" is more correct. > people in the U.S. (and most likely that's as much because of the > fact that it ends in "stan" like "Afghanistan", as for the brush-fire > conflict that flares up periodically between it and Russia). Well, I'd say that "flares up periodically" seems a bit harder-said than it actually should, though Khazakstan is far not the only "stan"-suffixed republics of former USSR. It's not only the ending that makes it "the best known to people in the U.S." ;-P ./danfe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 23:10:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D0937B40E for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CDhU-0002Zg-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:09:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:09:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: George Reid Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org George Reid wrote: > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 04:49:26PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Provide a counter example. > > Provide a proof. If you could provide a proof for Goedel's Theorem, it wouldn't be "Goedel's Theorem", it would be "Goedel's Law". Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. PS: Prove you aren't a witch... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 23:11:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08F837B421 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CDim-0003JU-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:11:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1CDD7.A210BF97@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:10:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > Well, you have to think counter-unpartisanly. For example, using > Ruminov's Ruminition, you can think of any idea, regardless of > linguistical barriers. For example, let's say an Episcipitalian wishes to > know how to know. By using Ruminov's Ruminition, he is able to: A) Think, > purely using emotions, a language inate in any human, of the > children. B) This, of course, leads to only one conclusion: 1) Anything > can be known, in the context of one's reality. > > Thus, we see how anything can be thunk, regardeless of any so-called > language. So your hypothesis is that emotions constitute a Turing-complete language? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 23:30:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429B337B401; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CE1i-0007Ag-00; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:30:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1D271.321A6B21@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 23:30:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > >>> language(s) in which you are able to think. > >> > >> No, it isn't. > > > > Provide a counter example. > > Done. > > Of course, I can't communicate it to you, because to do that I would > have to put it in language. Har. Your failure to cbe able to communicate it to me in language indicates that the language you would use to try to do so is inherently constrained from representing certain concepts, such as the one you can't communicate in it. 8-). > Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of > you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, > if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, > if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's > not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the > gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into > language is too slow for your own thoughts. Personally, I would avoid it by stopping, since I maintain at least 1.5 times my reaction time in distance between myself and the car in front of me. I rather imagine that stupid people smack into the car. There's a reason that, in the U.S., the driver who rear-ends another automatically gets the ticket. 8-). In the case of a semi-instantaneous stop (e.g. the car ahead smacks into a stopped car in front if it, without throwing on its brakes to signal the stop), you change lanes, because your stopping time is 5 times your lane changing time. Having been in this situation before, I can guarantee you that the reason reaction times are pegged at about 2 seconds is because your brain actually processes the information: it's not reflex action, as you are apparently trying to imply (for the curious: I changed lanes, and was not personally involved in the accident; ask Wes Peters about "Riverdale Road"; it's an accident prone stretch of highway between Weber State University and the [now defunct] only 70mm movie theater in Northern Utah, the Cinedome 70). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 26 23:33:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBAF37B401 for ; Sun, 26 May 2002 23:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 35C27814A1; Mon, 27 May 2002 16:03:37 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 16:03:37 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527160337.H71831@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF1D271.321A6B21@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF1D271.321A6B21@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 26 May 2002 at 23:30:09 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>>> Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the >>>>> language(s) in which you are able to think. >>>> >>>> No, it isn't. >>> >>> Provide a counter example. >> >> Done. >> >> Of course, I can't communicate it to you, because to do that I would >> have to put it in language. > > Har. Your failure to cbe able to communicate it to me in language > indicates that the language you would use to try to do so is inherently > constrained from representing certain concepts, such as the one you > can't communicate in it. 8-). Yes, this is one of the more perspicacious observations you've made in this discussion. Thought is not communication. >> Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of >> you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, >> if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, >> if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's >> not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the >> gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into >> language is too slow for your own thoughts. > > Personally, I would avoid it by stopping, since I maintain at least > 1.5 times my reaction time in distance between myself and the car in > front of me. I rather imagine that stupid people smack into the car. > There's a reason that, in the U.S., the driver who rear-ends another > automatically gets the ticket. 8-). But you're missing the point. And the driver behind you won't miss you. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 0:12: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FCE37B406; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CEfd-0003g9-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:11:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1DC1E.D59053CA@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:11:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF1D271.321A6B21@mindspring.com> <20020527160337.H71831@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of > >> you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, > >> if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, > >> if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's > >> not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the > >> gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into > >> language is too slow for your own thoughts. > > > > Personally, I would avoid it by stopping, since I maintain at least > > 1.5 times my reaction time in distance between myself and the car in > > front of me. I rather imagine that stupid people smack into the car. > > There's a reason that, in the U.S., the driver who rear-ends another > > automatically gets the ticket. 8-). > > But you're missing the point. And the driver behind you won't miss > you. She did. She smacked into the car I avoided by changing lanes, thus avoiding me. Even though I threw on my brakes while changing lanes to give her a visual indication that she should hit her brakes, too. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 0:12:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D636037B40A; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CEae-00015S-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:06:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1DAE7.97CA9559@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:06:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: Martin Karlsson , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Annelise Anderson , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> <20020527091651.A39265@regency.nsu.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have > > official languages, the best overall description of which is really > > "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to > > Actually, "Khazakstan" is more correct. I move letters around, apparently at random. ;^). The press spells it "Kazakhstan". We should just call it "that country with the migratory 'h'"... 8-p. > > people in the U.S. (and most likely that's as much because of the > > fact that it ends in "stan" like "Afghanistan", as for the brush-fire > > conflict that flares up periodically between it and Russia). > > Well, I'd say that "flares up periodically" seems a bit harder-said than > it actually should, though Khazakstan is far not the only "stan"-suffixed > republics of former USSR. It's not only the ending that makes it "the > best known to people in the U.S." ;-P I was thinking of the tanks and the long stand-off at the government offices a while back as a "flare up". Unless you were thinking about the "mutant spiders"? The others, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan are generally less well known in the U.S. (though Uzbekistan has gotten some U.S. press lately for allowing U.S. troops to be based there for launch into Afghanistan). I have a good friend who's from there. Want to hear something cute? All of the "-stan" republics which are former Soviet satellites have a literacy rate at least 1% better than that of the U.S.. The other "-stan"'s are much worse: Pakistan is ~43%, and Afghanistan is ~32%. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 0:13:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F22437B404 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-132-220.dial.proxad.net [62.147.132.220]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BAC8BC for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:13:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 2390 invoked by uid 1001); 27 May 2002 07:12:30 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 09:12:30 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527071230.GB2120@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> <3CF173C7.8EC49B13@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF173C7.8EC49B13@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 16:46:15: > Perhaps I've read too much, or perhaps I'm thinking more in terms > of abstract conceptualization, which I would argue requires the use > of words. It doesn't. As some American judge said, "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it." The same for artistry, democracy, any other abstract concept. We can sometimes define them in words but we have to struggle to do so. > But I generally think in terms of words, even for simple > concepts like "I'm hungry". You're fooling yourself. What you're doing is, you first feel hungry, and then you tell yourself in English that you're feeling hungry, though the process happens so quickly that there is perhaps no noticeable time-gap. That's what I meant by "talking to myself" as opposed to "thinking." Babies, and animals, feel hungry too without knowing any language. Try switching your thoughts to a language in which you are not totally comfortable, but not so ignorant that you have to translate word-by-word from English, if you know such a language. You'll notice the gap between thoughts and words then. But very likely "talking to yourself" in this way is a process that helps reinforce concepts and aids further thought. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 0:19:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8F837B401 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 847DF81337; Mon, 27 May 2002 16:49:49 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 16:49:49 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527164949.L71831@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF1D271.321A6B21@mindspring.com> <20020527160337.H71831@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF1DC1E.D59053CA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF1DC1E.D59053CA@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 0:11:26 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>> Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of >>>> you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, >>>> if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, >>>> if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's >>>> not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the >>>> gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into >>>> language is too slow for your own thoughts. >>> >>> Personally, I would avoid it by stopping, since I maintain at least >>> 1.5 times my reaction time in distance between myself and the car in >>> front of me. I rather imagine that stupid people smack into the car. >>> There's a reason that, in the U.S., the driver who rear-ends another >>> automatically gets the ticket. 8-). >> >> But you're missing the point. And the driver behind you won't miss >> you. > > She did. She smacked into the car I avoided by changing lanes, thus > avoiding me. Even though I threw on my brakes while changing lanes > to give her a visual indication that she should hit her brakes, too. It looks like you avoided it by changing your story. Above, you said that you would avoid it by stopping, not by swerving. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 0:38:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DBE37B400 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CF5Z-00053t-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:38:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1E265.7826DDA4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:38:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> <3CF173C7.8EC49B13@mindspring.com> <20020527071230.GB2120@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on May 26, 2002 at 16:46:15: > > Perhaps I've read too much, or perhaps I'm thinking more in terms > > of abstract conceptualization, which I would argue requires the use > > of words. > > It doesn't. As some American judge said, "I can't define pornography > but I know it when I see it." The same for artistry, democracy, any > other abstract concept. We can sometimes define them in words but we > have to struggle to do so. I usually just put that down to inadequate self-examination, and a failure to read Plato's "Republic". > > But I generally think in terms of words, even for simple > > concepts like "I'm hungry". > > You're fooling yourself. What you're doing is, you first feel hungry, > and then you tell yourself in English that you're feeling hungry, > though the process happens so quickly that there is perhaps no > noticeable time-gap. That's what I meant by "talking to myself" as > opposed to "thinking." Babies, and animals, feel hungry too without > knowing any language. "Feeling" is not "thinking". I may "feel" I'm hungry first, but until I conceptualize it, I haven't really thought about it. If feeling were thinking, then babies would be able to survive on their own. > Try switching your thoughts to a language in > which you are not totally comfortable, but not so ignorant that you > have to translate word-by-word from English, if you know such a > language. You'll notice the gap between thoughts and words then. But > very likely "talking to yourself" in this way is a process that helps > reinforce concepts and aids further thought. A "gendanken experiment". 8-) 8-). I've tried this with Japanese, German, and Spanish. English words always come to my rescue. I guess you could now argue that I'm not fluent until I'm at a loss for words. 8-). I think that the gap you are seeing is a translation latency. In terms of general meditations on advanced concepts, well, it often takes a hell of a lot of words to talk about them, but it's eventually possible, if you are patient enough. I think that it's logical to argue that your point (if I let you make it ;^)) indicates that you are thinking in a language other than a spoken language -- but a language, nonetheless. I think that my original point is still valid: > > Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > > language(s) in which you are able to think. You still haven't escaped the bounds of language, even if you choose to use an internal language. If you want to approach this from another tack, we can: I posit that there exists such thing as a concept which an unmodified, standard issue human being can not internalize, except symbolically. Actually, I'd argue that twenty-seven dimensional topology is such a concept. I get a headache trying to visualize only five orthogonal vectors... visualizing twenty-seven of them at the same time would probably kill someone. Assuming they didn't pop out of reality all together... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 0:42:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3923337B403; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0387.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.132] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CF96-0006r3-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 00:42:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF1E33D.15281260@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:41:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF1D271.321A6B21@mindspring.com> <20020527160337.H71831@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF1DC1E.D59053CA@mindspring.com> <20020527164949.L71831@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > It looks like you avoided it by changing your story. Above, you said > that you would avoid it by stopping, not by swerving. There were two stories going on: the "what would you do if someone suddenly stopped" story, and the "what would you do if someone stopped faster than their vehicle should normally be able to stop" story. I can regale you with many stories of accidents I haven't been in, if you want examples of all of them. I wasn't in at least 10,000 of them, just today alone. 10 of them before breakfast. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 1:42:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642FE37B404 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 01:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greid.oriel.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.146.151] helo=sobek.lan) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17CG56-0000hg-04; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:42:20 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4R8gJZ53235; Mon, 27 May 2002 09:42:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk using -f Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 09:42:19 +0100 From: George Reid To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527094219.A53169@FreeBSD.org> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:09:16PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:09:16PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > If you could provide a proof for Goedel's Theorem, it wouldn't > be "Goedel's Theorem", it would be "Goedel's Law". I can provide you with proofs for any number of theorems, none of which are generally referred to as "laws". However, I have more important things to do than quibble over semantics. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 1:44:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-65.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD22C37B407 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 01:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4R8hsl02079; Mon, 27 May 2002 01:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 01:43:53 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: George Reid , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , George Reid , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:09:16PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > If you could provide a proof for Goedel's Theorem, it wouldn't > be "Goedel's Theorem", it would be "Goedel's Law". > > Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It > would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's > Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? > PS: Prove you aren't a witch... Well, I *do* weigh more than a duck... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 1:44:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-65.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACB637B401 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 01:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4R8RhX02003; Mon, 27 May 2002 01:27:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 01:27:43 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <20020527012743.A1951@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , rob , "chat@freebsd.org" References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <3CF1626D.DE01A84F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF1626D.DE01A84F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:32:13PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > Quoting a message in its entirety, as a blob, whether before or after, > is generally annoying, since if the thread is interesting, then the > blob was already read, and your reply is addressing the entire > statement, not the statement in context. The entire statement, in > context, is already in context as a blob, in the mail archives and/or > the readers "inbox". If you receive lots of email, much of it from clueless people who sometimes don't even use the same damn subject line, a reply with the entire message quoted is less annoying than a reply with nothing quoted.[1] The difference is pressing Page Down a few times versus looking up the person's last message in your mailbox. It's especially annoying someone is replying to a message sent to a mailing list, because it's harder to find the context. If you don't receive lots of email, then you will probably remember the exact words you said and don't need the context. Then again, if you receive lots of email, you have less of a right to complain. [1] Fortunately, I am no longer paid to deal with such people, but I remember what it was like. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 2:26:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4C637B404 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 02:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4R9Qkp27177 ; Mon, 27 May 2002 11:26:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA74532 ; Mon, 27 May 2002 11:26:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 11:26:44 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: George Reid Cc: Terry Lambert , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527112644.F71216@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527094219.A53169@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020527094219.A53169@FreeBSD.org>; from george.reid@oriel.oxford.ac.uk on Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:42:19AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org George Reid said on May 27, 2002 at 09:42:19: > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:09:16PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > If you could provide a proof for Goedel's Theorem, it wouldn't > > be "Goedel's Theorem", it would be "Goedel's Law". > > I can provide you with proofs for any number of theorems, none of which > are generally referred to as "laws". However, I have more important > things to do than quibble over semantics. And if you *couldn't* prove Gödel's theorem, it would be Gödel's conjecture or Gödel's hypothesis. But in fact Gödel himself supplied a proof. That's what made it such a significant development. Some "theorems" like Fermat's Last Theorem shouldn't have been called theorems at all, until they were proved. Even today only a handful of people can claim to understand Wiles' proof of Fermat's last theorem. But just about every mathematician and computer scientist understands Gödel's theorem, its original proof, and the way it fits in with later developments such as algorithmic information theory. Some people would say that today Gödel's theorem is rather obvious. See for instance http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/georgia.html - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 4:57:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC0F37B401 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 04:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a137.otenet.gr [212.205.215.137]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4RBvSR3017741; Mon, 27 May 2002 14:57:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4RBvDD2000460; Mon, 27 May 2002 14:57:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4RAGWk0099655; Mon, 27 May 2002 13:16:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 13:16:31 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020527101631.GE93194@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> <20020527091651.A39265@regency.nsu.ru> <3CF1DAE7.97CA9559@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF1DAE7.97CA9559@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-27 00:06, Terry Lambert wrote: > Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have > > > official languages, the best overall description of which is really > > > "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to > > > > Actually, "Khazakstan" is more correct. > > I move letters around, apparently at random. ;^). The press spells it > "Kazakhstan". We should just call it "that country with the migratory > 'h'"... 8-p. That would be Uzbekistan, right? - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 5:42:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5097337B404 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 05:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4RCPxo25687; Mon, 27 May 2002 08:25:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 08:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss In-Reply-To: <3CF1CDD7.A210BF97@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 26 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: > > Well, you have to think counter-unpartisanly. For example, using > > Ruminov's Ruminition, you can think of any idea, regardless of > > linguistical barriers. For example, let's say an Episcipitalian wishes to > > know how to know. By using Ruminov's Ruminition, he is able to: A) Think, > > purely using emotions, a language inate in any human, of the > > children. B) This, of course, leads to only one conclusion: 1) Anything > > can be known, in the context of one's reality. > > > > Thus, we see how anything can be thunk, regardeless of any so-called > > language. > > So your hypothesis is that emotions constitute a Turing-complete > language? > > -- Terry > Where did I say that? That would obviously be imposible. You're just putting words into my mouth. I suggest you reread my comment, before making such batently untrue statements. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 5:53:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A44137B400 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 05:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4RCddq26925; Mon, 27 May 2002 08:39:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 08:39:39 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Terry Lambert , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: <20020527101631.GE93194@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 May 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-05-27 00:06, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have > > > > official languages, the best overall description of which is really > > > > "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to > > > > > > Actually, "Khazakstan" is more correct. > > > > I move letters around, apparently at random. ;^). The press spells it > > "Kazakhstan". We should just call it "that country with the migratory > > 'h'"... 8-p. > > That would be Uzbekistan, right? > > - Giorgos > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > What about Eahst Timor? ;)P To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 6:49: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309B337B401 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 06:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 17CKrs-000G06-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 14:49:00 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g4RDn0p94592; Mon, 27 May 2002 14:49:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 14:48:59 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Baldur Gislason Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20020527144859.A94532@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524150005.A67875@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164329.A7AF52744@tesla.foo.is> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020524164329.A7AF52744@tesla.foo.is>; from baldur@foo.is on Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:43:21PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:43:21PM +0000, Baldur Gislason wrote: | Netscape 4.6 was FreeBSD native, Linux binary compatibility works fine for | most programs, but of course native is nicer ;) I try to support native whenever possible, but the fact is, to view most webpages these days, I need the capabilities of the Linux version, just for the plugins. Maybe that will change someday, but I won't hold my breath waiting. jm -- There are only 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 10:26:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAE037B404 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0200.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.200] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17COG6-0003tO-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:26:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF26C11.BB49C671@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:25:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: George Reid , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527094219.A53169@FreeBSD.org> <20020527112644.F71216@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Some "theorems" like Fermat's Last Theorem shouldn't have been called > theorems at all, until they were proved. Even today only a handful of > people can claim to understand Wiles' proof of Fermat's last theorem. > But just about every mathematician and computer scientist understands > G=F6del's theorem, its original proof, and the way it fits in with late= r > developments such as algorithmic information theory. Some people > would say that today G=F6del's theorem is rather obvious. See for > instance > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/georgia.html The proof by Wiles also proved Taniyama-Shimura, which was, at least algorithmically, more important. If you look at the second edition Kunth volumes, there are 4 or 5 "new" algorithms, now that it's been "proven". 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 10:38:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5136A37B403 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0200.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.200] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17COS2-00005r-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:38:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF26EF8.B0C0DCF4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:38:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:56 AM +0200 2002/05/27, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the > >> language(s) in which you are able to think. > > > > We don't think in languages -- we think abstractly. That is why one > > is sometimes at a loss for the "mot juste" -- you know what you want > > to say but not how to say it. > > This is not true. You are not a truly fluent speaker of a > language until you think in that language. However, that can have > it's own set of problems. If you speak a half-dozen languages, > trying to find the right word for the right object in the right > language can take quite some time. That's the beauty of English: no matter what language the word is in, the sentence is still in English. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 10:47:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDC837B405; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0200.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.200] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17COac-0005FA-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:47:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF2710E.BE2710EC@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:46:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:45 AM +0930 2002/05/27, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of > > you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, > > if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, > > if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's > > not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the > > gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into > > language is too slow for your own thoughts. > > I would argue that this issue is handled largely by reflex, with > relatively little conscious thought. What conscious thought has gone > into this process happened before the situation began, so your reflex > is going to be guided by your memory of the overall situation > immediately before the unexpected occurrence. You know, I was going to liken driver's training and playing such situations over in your head before the event itself, to a "kata", which is (basically) a martial arts technique for training reflexes to carry through into useful actions. But then I thought "Naw, they'd never buy that one". 8-). In point of fact, the first accident I avoided as a result of a lane change was as a result of a discussion and a subsequent working out of the math to reassure myself that it was true, following observation of an "autocross" meet. I don't think it would have occurred to me to change lanes, had I not practiced it in my head two weeks before the incident... not quite a trained reflex, but, the decision was obviously based on the contents of long term memory, rather than problem solving in situ. As such, I still don't think that your reaction to an imminent accident situation really constitutes "thinking", per se. It's more like it takes place in the hypothalamus, rather than the cerebrum (as in "thinking") or the medula (as in "trained reflex"). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 10:50:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054B137B405 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0200.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.200] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17COcr-0007ZH-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 10:49:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF2719A.DE7BB63F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 10:49:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > On Mon, 27 May 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2002-05-27 00:06, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have > > > > > official languages, the best overall description of which is really > > > > > "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to > > > > > > > > Actually, "Khazakstan" is more correct. > > > > > > I move letters around, apparently at random. ;^). The press spells it > > > "Kazakhstan". We should just call it "that country with the migratory > > > 'h'"... 8-p. > > > > That would be Uzbekistan, right? > > What about Eahst Timor? ;)P What *abhout* East Timor? ;^p -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 13: 7:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foo31-146.visit.se (foo31-146.visit.se [62.119.31.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B52637B400 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 13:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by foo31-146.visit.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C480D6AB1F; Mon, 27 May 2002 22:07:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 22:07:08 +0200 From: Martin Karlsson To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020527200708.GB441@foo31-146.visit.se> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5970 BE22 2C33 4D8F 53FD 7E34 66FF 9332 9C92 4660 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Terry Lambert [2002-05-26 15.07 -0700]: [...snipped good points...] > Frankly, most people in the U.S. simply can't understand the ethnic > based conflicts in various parts of the world. From the general > population's point of view, it's impossible to tell an ethnic Serb > from an ethnic Croat, unless one of them stands up at a podium and > yells "_I_ am an _ethnic Serb_!". =20 I can't (and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this) understand how one can _not_ understand the ethnic based conflicts in various parts of the world. The U.S. is perhaps something of a special case in this respect, because its population is composed of people from all around the world, with basically only two unifying factors, the constitution and the English language.=20 BTW, did you know that Finns carry knives all the time and basically live in the sauna, and that Norwegians are somewhat stupid? Well, of course this is not true(?), but these are "truths" everybody knows in Sweden. (And Finns asume all Swedish men are gay because... etc. etc.)=20 Are there American myths of this sort about Canadians or Mexicans? [...snipped more good points...] > Eating the expense, which makes you ashamed because your country > won't eat the same expense, is costing the U.S. billions upon > billions of dollars in lost productivity, and is in fact > entrenching the ghettoization of the people taught that way. =20 To my way of thinking, a major part of who I am is my language. Descartes said "I think, therefore I am", but I'd like to change that to "I speak and share a language with my neighbors, therefore I am". If you aren't allowed to communicate in your language, you aren't allowed to be who you are. Of course I think that if one migrates to a new country, priority one is to learn the language of that country, but on the other hand,... eh... er... I'm too tired for this, and I really don't know what I think about this. I'll have to chew a bit on this one. HAND --=20 Martin Karlsson _ GPG/PGP public key: 0x9C924660 ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) -against HTML, vCards and X -proprietary attachments in e-mail / \ --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE88pHrZv+TMpySRmARAt9sAJ4w8WHxz/wu7ZWDRmsFqTsRurZBBgCfZ71G enLJjx+wsaieplZe8c0xKQI= =KfGp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 14:46:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAE037B403 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 14:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4RLGwN87796; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:16:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: <3CF2719A.DE7BB63F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: > > On Mon, 27 May 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > On 2002-05-27 00:06, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > > > On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:07:41PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > Second counter-example: many of the former Russian republics have > > > > > > official languages, the best overall description of which is really > > > > > > "anything but Russian". Kazhakstan is probably the best known to > > > > > > > > > > Actually, "Khazakstan" is more correct. > > > > > > > > I move letters around, apparently at random. ;^). The press spells it > > > > "Kazakhstan". We should just call it "that country with the migratory > > > > 'h'"... 8-p. > > > > > > That would be Uzbekistan, right? > > > > What about Eahst Timor? ;)P > > What *abhout* East Timor? ;^p > > -- Terry > East Timor is the newest, and greatest, country in the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 16:44:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622A937B406 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 16:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8F3C88113A; Tue, 28 May 2002 09:14:10 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:14:10 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: David Schultz Cc: Terry Lambert , George Reid , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 1:43:53 -0700, David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Terry Lambert : >> If you could provide a proof for Goedel's Theorem, it wouldn't >> be "Goedel's Theorem", it would be "Goedel's Law". >> >> Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It >> would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's >> Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. > > Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? Who's Godel? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 17:10:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24D237B414; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a142.otenet.gr [212.205.215.142]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4S0A601000465; Tue, 28 May 2002 03:10:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4S0A5Hw020225; Tue, 28 May 2002 03:10:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4S0A4tM020224; Tue, 28 May 2002 03:10:04 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 03:10:02 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-05-28 09:14, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 1:43:53 -0700, David Schultz wrote: > >> Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It > >> would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's > >> Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. > > > > Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? > > Who's Godel? Instead of trying to duplicate the wealth of information that the Internet has already, here's a few references: Kurt Goedel was a mathematician. His one most famous work, the "conjecture of incompleteness" is described in the pages below: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/georgia.html http://www.ltcom.lv/~podnieks/gt6.html and a lot of others. You can find a lot of references, by searching for "goedel conjecture" in Google. The spelling (`Goedel' instead of `Godel') was what was wrong if you did search already :-) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 17:22:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB1B37B404; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8CC8E81430; Tue, 28 May 2002 09:52:08 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:52:08 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 3:10:02 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-05-28 09:14, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 1:43:53 -0700, David Schultz wrote: >>>> Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It >>>> would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's >>>> Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. >>> >>> Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? >> >> Who's Godel? > > Instead of trying to duplicate the wealth of information that the > Internet has already, here's a few references: > > Kurt Goedel was a mathematician. Ah, you mean Gödel, not Godel. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 17:56: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-69.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2103E37B408; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4S0uEA01251; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:56:13 -0700 From: David Schultz To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, May 28, 2002 at 09:52:08AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Greg 'groggy' Lehey : > On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 3:10:02 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2002-05-28 09:14, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 1:43:53 -0700, David Schultz wrote: > >>>> Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It > >>>> would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's > >>>> Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. > >>> > >>> Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? > >> > >> Who's Godel? > > > > Instead of trying to duplicate the wealth of information that the > > Internet has already, here's a few references: > > > > Kurt Goedel was a mathematician. > > Ah, you mean Gödel, not Godel. Yes. I don't use umlauts often enough outside of TeX to bother to figure out an easy way to enter them on my keyboard. Besides, extended ASCII characters get mangled somewhere on the way from mutt to Emacs, and the last time I tried to debug a misfeature in Emacs it took me two days. Next time I need to refer to the proof, I'll just cite Turing's version of it instead, even though that came a few years later. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 17:58:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323A637B404; Mon, 27 May 2002 17:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 101BF8148C; Tue, 28 May 2002 10:28:02 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:28:02 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 17:56:13 -0700, David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Greg 'groggy' Lehey : >> On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 3:10:02 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >>> On 2002-05-28 09:14, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>> On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 1:43:53 -0700, David Schultz wrote: >>>>>> Feel free to provide the counter example originally requested. It >>>>>> would be amusing to see someone find a way to discredit Goedel's >>>>>> Theorem on a "-chat" mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? >>>> >>>> Who's Godel? >>> >>> Instead of trying to duplicate the wealth of information that the >>> Internet has already, here's a few references: >>> >>> Kurt Goedel was a mathematician. >> >> Ah, you mean Gödel, not Godel. > > Yes. I don't use umlauts often enough outside of TeX to bother to > figure out an easy way to enter them on my keyboard. Besides, > extended ASCII characters get mangled somewhere on the way from mutt > to Emacs, and the last time I tried to debug a misfeature in Emacs it > took me two days. Hmm, it works fine for me. Anyway, there's an alternative: put an e after the non-umlauted letter, like the others have done. Just replacing it with a different letter is wrong. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 18:48:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-69.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809EB37B41D; Mon, 27 May 2002 18:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4S1mH701564; Mon, 27 May 2002 18:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 18:48:17 -0700 From: David Schultz To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, May 28, 2002 at 10:28:02AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Greg 'groggy' Lehey : > >> Ah, you mean Gödel, not Godel. > > > > Yes. I don't use umlauts often enough outside of TeX to bother to > > figure out an easy way to enter them on my keyboard. Besides, > > extended ASCII characters get mangled somewhere on the way from mutt > > to Emacs, and the last time I tried to debug a misfeature in Emacs it > > took me two days. > > Hmm, it works fine for me. > > Anyway, there's an alternative: put an e after the non-umlauted > letter, like the others have done. Just replacing it with a different > letter is wrong. Forgive my ignorance of diacritical marks; I'm just a stupid American. Actually, English has dropped the marks from a number of German words. Names like Gödel are not among them, but English still does far better than languages that insist that all foreign words must be spelled phoenetically. By the way, Google turns up more results, the first few of which are better, if you search for `Godel' instead of `Goedel', contrary to what Giorgos implied. 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Pb3js2gJ8BEKXv5K7Cj4TVH4w124pWd4s1Lm893mXegmQ9EmTEc --------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 20:46: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B9B37B401; Mon, 27 May 2002 20:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0419.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.164] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CXvq-0001Qw-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 20:45:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF2FD51.13A6D2F8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 20:45:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: David Schultz , George Reid , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > Eh? What's wrong with Godel's proof for Godel's Theorem? > > Who's Godel? That's not his *whole* name... 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 27 20:48: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7814937B400 for ; Mon, 27 May 2002 20:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0419.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.164] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17CXsh-0005t4-00; Mon, 27 May 2002 20:42:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF2FC8F.317C0AE2@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 20:42:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > East Timor is the newest, and greatest, country in the world. No power, no water, and 85% of all buildings, public and private, burnt down by departing Indonesian troops in 1999. Most teaching positions filled by agenda swinging missionaries. Large aggressive neighbor with a fresh chip on its shoulder, and every reason to pull a "Monroe" to take attention off the problems at home. Indonesia actively blocking medical supplies, and 50-100 people dying daily from curable diseases (according to "unbiased" Noam Chomsky). Only 50% literacy for men and 34% for women. Current issues include: implementing IMF-mandated reforms of the banking sector, effecting a transition to a popularly elected government after four decades of authoritarianism, addressing charges of cronyism and corruption, holding the military accountable for human rights violations (source: CIA). Dropping of Indonesian (spoken by 63%) as the official language, and adopting _both_ Portuguese (spoken by 5%) and Tetum (spoken by 91%, the most populous of the 15 indiginous spoken languages). Tetum needing both grammatical and vocabulary developement before it's expressive enough to be a national language (source: International Herlad Tribune); most likely this will come in the form of imports from Portuguese. Over 20% unemployment. Am I forgetting anything? Maybe Sun Microsystems will send them something, given that they named a computer language after Indonesia's largest island... I guess as a new nation, they could always sell domain names in their country suffix... Just what we need... more technocratic "one true plan" nation building which has been so successful everywhere else it's been tried. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 1:43:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C07837B400; Tue, 28 May 2002 01:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4S8hCp46048 ; Tue, 28 May 2002 10:43:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA39002 ; Tue, 28 May 2002 10:43:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:43:11 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schultz Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org>; from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU on Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:48:17PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz said on May 27, 2002 at 18:48:17: > > Anyway, there's an alternative: put an e after the non-umlauted > > letter, like the others have done. Just replacing it with a different > > letter is wrong. > > Forgive my ignorance of diacritical marks; I'm just a stupid American. > Actually, English has dropped the marks from a number of German words. In French it's normal to drop accents when it's inconvenient to write them (and, often, in capital letters even when it is possible to write them). It makes sense to me. "Godel" is the normal spelling in English. > Names like Gödel are not among them, but English still does far better > than languages that insist that all foreign words must be spelled > phoenetically. Was that meant to be "phönetically"? :) I agree, every language distorts foreign words and foreign names. French is by far the worst offender I've seen (eg, "Jean-Sebastien Bach," and I'm not even getting started on names from non-Roman scripts like Indian languages). English by and large is not so bad; it doesn't have accents "natively", so it's not terribly necessary to use them, in my opinion; and unless you're a trained German writer, the most obvious way out is to drop them altogether. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 1:47:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2343637B407; Tue, 28 May 2002 01:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4S8lOp47245 ; Tue, 28 May 2002 10:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA39228 ; Tue, 28 May 2002 10:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:47:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528104724.B37937@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF2710E.BE2710EC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CF2710E.BE2710EC@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, May 27, 2002 at 10:46:54AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 27, 2002 at 10:46:54: > > I would argue that this issue is handled largely by reflex, with > > relatively little conscious thought. What conscious thought has gone > > into this process happened before the situation began, so your reflex > > is going to be guided by your memory of the overall situation > > immediately before the unexpected occurrence. > > You know, I was going to liken driver's training and playing such > situations over in your head before the event itself, to a "kata", > which is (basically) a martial arts technique for training reflexes to > carry through into useful actions. But then I thought "Naw, they'd > never buy that one". 8-). Actually, I would argue that all thought really occurs at some such subconscious level, and when you're thinking "consciously" you're really playing these thoughts back to yourself. You can force yourself to think about a problem, but often the answer comes to you as a sudden insight when you're thinking about something else (or think you're thinking about something else). Training and practice (in mathematics or computer programming or whatever) serve only to streamline this unconscious process. It's like breathing, you can control it if you want to but it works best if you don't control it. However, breathing exercises could be good for health nonetheless. Not my original idea, better people than me have said it, but I can't think of the references... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 3:16:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-146.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E849337B405; Tue, 28 May 2002 03:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4SAGTU04784; Tue, 28 May 2002 03:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 03:16:28 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528031628.A4735@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Tue, May 28, 2002 at 10:43:11AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Rahul Siddharthan : > > Names like Gödel are not among them, but English still does far better > > than languages that insist that all foreign words must be spelled > > phoenetically. > > Was that meant to be "phönetically"? :) No, that was just me getting obsessed with the `oe'. (No, I will *not* look up the extended ASCII code for that dipthong!) > English by and large is not so bad; > it doesn't have accents "natively", so it's not terribly necessary to > use them, in my opinion; and unless you're a trained German writer, > the most obvious way out is to drop them altogether. When I'm writing something formal, I at least try to get the accents right. Sometimes I have to look things up because the only languages I know are English and Latin, neither of which have accents. But as you can tell, I don't bother to pick up a dictionary to look up words like `phonetically' when I'm writing an email. I spell them pho... well, you get the picture. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 5:59: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23B137B407 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 05:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4SCj7g83392; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:45:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:45:05 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Alexey Dokuchaev , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: <3CF2FC8F.317C0AE2@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: > > East Timor is the newest, and greatest, country in the world. > > > No power, no water, and 85% of all buildings, public and private, burnt down > by departing Indonesian troops in 1999. Most teaching positions filled by > agenda swinging missionaries. Large aggressive neighbor with a fresh chip > on its shoulder, and every reason to pull a "Monroe" to take attention off > the problems at home. Indonesia actively blocking medical supplies, and > 50-100 people dying daily from curable diseases (according to "unbiased" > Noam Chomsky). Only 50% literacy for men and 34% for women. > > Current issues include: implementing IMF-mandated reforms of the banking > sector, effecting a transition to a popularly elected government after > four decades of authoritarianism, addressing charges of cronyism and > corruption, holding the military accountable for human rights violations > (source: CIA). > > Dropping of Indonesian (spoken by 63%) as the official language, and > adopting _both_ Portuguese (spoken by 5%) and Tetum (spoken by 91%, the > most populous of the 15 indiginous spoken languages). Tetum needing > both grammatical and vocabulary developement before it's expressive > enough to be a national language (source: International Herlad Tribune); > most likely this will come in the form of imports from Portuguese. > > Over 20% unemployment. > > Am I forgetting anything? > > Maybe Sun Microsystems will send them something, given that they > named a computer language after Indonesia's largest island... I guess > as a new nation, they could always sell domain names in their country > suffix... > > Just what we need... more technocratic "one true plan" nation building > which has been so successful everywhere else it's been tried. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > You're forgetting at least one thing: they say "Viva!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 6: 6:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CB537B405; Tue, 28 May 2002 06:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E153FCA0; Tue, 28 May 2002 15:06:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from flynn@localhost) by energyhq.homeip.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4SD614Y079616; Tue, 28 May 2002 15:06:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:06:00 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schultz , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , David Schultz , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Tue, May 28, 2002 at 10:43:11AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 28, 2002 at 10:43:11AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Hi, > I agree, every language distorts foreign words and foreign names. > French is by far the worst offender I've seen (eg, "Jean-Sebastien > Bach," and I'm not even getting started on names from non-Roman It's usual, in Spanish, to translate the name of a person, and keep the original surname. IMHO it's totally correct. So you could either say Johan Sebastian Bach, or Juan Sebastian Bach, both of which would be correct. I think the same can be applied to french and other languages. OTOH, some names are fully translated in english: Cristobal Colon ->=20 Christopher Columbus. I think it makes sense to translate names, now, surnames, that I find a bit odd. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE884C4nLctrNyFFPERAoFQAKDNFD/1eWI+QcDclka9ZpeMgVvQLQCeJT6V LW6F+9T+GaGRMt2J49V0fWQ= =XKvG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 6: 8:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from MAIL.COMSER.RO (domino.comser.ro [194.176.174.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0419537B411 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 06:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from keysys.ro ([194.176.174.47]) by MAIL.COMSER.RO with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 28 May 2002 15:58:50 +0300 From: "ADRIAN POPOVICIU" To: Subject: H E L L O ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:00:30 +0300 Reply-To: "ADRIAN POPOVICIU" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 May 2002 12:58:51.0173 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A10DD50:01C20647] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dipl. eng. POPOVICIU ADRIAN R O M A N I A May 28, 2002 Dear Sir, I learn recently about you from Internet network. My name is POPOVICIU ADRIAN. I graduated engineering at the electronic and electrotechnic faculty, speciality radioelectronics, in Europe (Bucharest). I have more 10 years work experience like tehnical support for instrumentation, computers, office devices and general electronic & electrical equipments. I looking to get a new job. You will find my CV (with photo and other abilities)at the address: http://a.popoviciu.tripod.com/index.html If you have a job opportunity please send an email at my address: apopovici@keysys.ro I can submit (if it is necessary) very good recommendations. With best greetings Yours sincerely Adrian Popoviciu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 6:20:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA83337B403; Tue, 28 May 2002 06:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4SDKDp92520 ; Tue, 28 May 2002 15:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA54715 ; Tue, 28 May 2002 15:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:20:13 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Miguel Mendez Cc: David Schultz , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528152013.M37937@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net>; from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net on Tue, May 28, 2002 at 03:06:00PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez said on May 28, 2002 at 15:06:00: > It's usual, in Spanish, to translate the name of a person, and keep the > original surname. IMHO it's totally correct. Hm, maybe it's because I'm not from the European culture, but it doesn't make so much sense to me... I don't see a distinction between the first name and the surname from this point of view. It's true that some people choose to change their names, eg Handel changed his from Georg Friedrich to George Frederick, if I remember right. (Greg will perhaps remark that the surname should be Haendel, but I've almost never seen it written that way.) > OTOH, some names are fully translated in english: Cristobal Colon -> > Christopher Columbus. I didn't know that example; good point. I know some other examples (eg, Jeanne d'Arc -> Joan of Arc), but in general, it seems to me that English speakers take some pains to get the original spelling right. Perhaps it's because spelling is so unsystematic in English anyway, a little more confusion can't hurt... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 9:32:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DF137B405; Tue, 28 May 2002 09:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leto (pcp529856pcs.nash01.tn.comcast.net [68.52.131.181]) by mtaout02.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0GWT00GKGXXYHQ@mtaout02.icomcast.net>; Tue, 28 May 2002 12:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:27:50 -0500 (CDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" Subject: RE: I can help you lose weight In-reply-to: <000001c2065e$f9c8bcd0$2dde1b42@skeletor> X-X-Sender: bandix@leto.homeportal.2wire.net To: Chris Reed Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20020528112112.L10467-100000@leto.homeportal.2wire.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to chat so people don't tear this asshole a new one on any of the otherwise useful technical lists he spammed and Bcc'd to the postmaster so he can do his thang] On Tue, 28 May 2002, Chris Reed wrote: >Get this guy outta here! [attached spam snipped] The same could be said of someone who crossposts a known spam to every high traffic list on the FreeBSD listserv rather than simply sending it along to postmaster@FreeBSD.org where it can be round-filed accordingly. Thanks for wasting bandwidth. I was happily ignorant of this spam until you replied to it. SpamAssassin filtered it out of my incoming mail and I didn't need to waste time being bothered by it. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Time to resign from the human race, wipe those tears from your lovely face. Baby, wave to the man in the ol' red caboose before all hell breaks loose." - Kinky Friedman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 11:31: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from invert.com (invert.com [209.164.21.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0193C37BB6F for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 11:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mee@localhost) by invert.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g4SIUkP44436 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 May 2002 11:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mee) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:30:46 -0700 From: Mike Erickson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528183046.GA34045@quidquam.com> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF2710E.BE2710EC@mindspring.com> <20020528104724.B37937@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020528104724.B37937@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan (rsidd@online.fr) wrote: > Terry Lambert said on May 27, 2002 at 10:46:54: > > > I would argue that this issue is handled largely by reflex, with > > > relatively little conscious thought. What conscious thought has gone > > > into this process happened before the situation began, so your reflex > > > is going to be guided by your memory of the overall situation > > > immediately before the unexpected occurrence. > > > > You know, I was going to liken driver's training and playing such > > situations over in your head before the event itself, to a "kata", > > which is (basically) a martial arts technique for training reflexes to > > carry through into useful actions. But then I thought "Naw, they'd > > never buy that one". 8-). > > Actually, I would argue that all thought really occurs at some such > subconscious level, and when you're thinking "consciously" you're > really playing these thoughts back to yourself. You can force > yourself to think about a problem, but often the answer comes to you > as a sudden insight when you're thinking about something else (or > think you're thinking about something else). Training and practice > (in mathematics or computer programming or whatever) serve only to > streamline this unconscious process. Haven't you all stared at a math problem with a blank mind and had the non-trivial answer just pop out of your mouth? That's all the proof *I* need to believe that my brain is doing more than what I can observe directly. Or when you can't think of a word/concept/name/etc, and then the next day you randomly yell it out as your subconsious google finally returns a result... ;) The idea that thought is bound by the limits of language is not only rediculous, it's scary. mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 15: 2:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pianosa.catch22.org (pianosa.catch22.org [64.81.48.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81FE337B403 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 15:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pianosa.catch22.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 05DD31E6; Tue, 28 May 2002 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:02:25 -0700 From: dannyman To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528150225.J21922@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <20020526190324.GA690@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020526190324.GA690@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Sun, May 26, 2002 at 09:03:24PM +0200 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 09:03:24PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Totally OT for FreeBSD, but people who were reading the thread on > survival of small languages may be interested in this article: > > http://www.spectator.co.uk/bookreview.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-05-25&id=997 Yay! http://lnk.to/3 created! Thank you for giving me the opportunity to evangalise http://lnk.to/. :) -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 20: 1:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF26837B406; Tue, 28 May 2002 20:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A1FA381461; Wed, 29 May 2002 12:31:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:31:50 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schultz , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529123150.F82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020527005647.A50028@FreeBSD.org> <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 10:43:11 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > David Schultz said on May 27, 2002 at 18:48:17: >>> Anyway, there's an alternative: put an e after the non-umlauted >>> letter, like the others have done. Just replacing it with a different >>> letter is wrong. >> >> Forgive my ignorance of diacritical marks; I'm just a stupid American. >> Actually, English has dropped the marks from a number of German words. > > In French it's normal to drop accents when it's inconvenient to write > them (and, often, in capital letters even when it is possible to write > them). Yes, French is different in that way. One of the reasons is that they're accents, not different letters, and there's little ambiguity if you leave them out. That's not the case in German: they are different letters, and changing the letters makes the words ambiguous. For example, "Rachen" means "throat" and "Rächen" (or "Raechen" if you don't have the characters) means "Avenge". > It makes sense to me. "Godel" is the normal spelling in English. It's not an English word. >> Names like Gödel are not among them, but English still does far better >> than languages that insist that all foreign words must be spelled >> phoenetically. > > Was that meant to be "phönetically"? :) > > I agree, every language distorts foreign words and foreign names. > French is by far the worst offender I've seen (eg, "Jean-Sebastien > Bach," and I'm not even getting started on names from non-Roman > scripts like Indian languages). English by and large is not so bad; > it doesn't have accents "natively", so it's not terribly necessary to > use them, in my opinion; and unless you're a trained German writer, > the most obvious way out is to drop them altogether. It may be obvious, but that makes it neither correct nor desirable. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 20: 3:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DB237B401; Tue, 28 May 2002 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B5E8E81461; Wed, 29 May 2002 12:33:33 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:33:33 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan , David Schultz , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529123333.G82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 15:06:00 +0200, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Tue, May 28, 2002 at 10:43:11AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Hi, > >> I agree, every language distorts foreign words and foreign names. >> French is by far the worst offender I've seen (eg, "Jean-Sebastien >> Bach," and I'm not even getting started on names from non-Roman > > It's usual, in Spanish, to translate the name of a person, and keep the > original surname. IMHO it's totally correct. So you could either say > Johan Sebastian Bach, or Juan Sebastian Bach, both of which would be > correct. I think the same can be applied to french and other languages. > OTOH, some names are fully translated in english: Cristobal Colon -> > Christopher Columbus. I think it makes sense to translate names, now, > surnames, that I find a bit odd. I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I look on names as not being part of a language, more a tag, so the spelling shouldn't be changed. There's still a significant issue when transliterating from one language to another, though. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 20:12:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C707A37B408; Tue, 28 May 2002 20:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1BD968147D; Wed, 29 May 2002 12:42:38 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:42:38 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Miguel Mendez , David Schultz , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529124238.H82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020528152013.M37937@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020528152013.M37937@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 15:20:13 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Miguel Mendez said on May 28, 2002 at 15:06:00: >> It's usual, in Spanish, to translate the name of a person, and keep the >> original surname. IMHO it's totally correct. > > Hm, maybe it's because I'm not from the European culture, but it > doesn't make so much sense to me... I don't see a distinction between > the first name and the surname from this point of view. It's true > that some people choose to change their names, eg Handel changed his > from Georg Friedrich to George Frederick, if I remember right. (Greg > will perhaps remark that the surname should be Haendel, but I've > almost never seen it written that way.) I've usually seen it written Händel. Note that in this case, H[än]ndel changed his own name, so this is probably acceptable. Also, of course, the Normans dropped three letters from the English language, including ä (which was written æ). That's why the word "that" has a different a than in "cart" (and why the th in "than" is different from the th in "thank"). Using the original English letters, which are still in use in Icelandic (and thus in 8859-1) they would be written ðænk and þænk. >> OTOH, some names are fully translated in english: Cristobal Colon -> >> Christopher Columbus. > > I didn't know that example; good point. I know some other examples > (eg, Jeanne d'Arc -> Joan of Arc), but in general, it seems to me that > English speakers take some pains to get the original spelling right. > Perhaps it's because spelling is so unsystematic in English anyway, a > little more confusion can't hurt... Things have changed over time. Translation of names is less common than it used to be. How do the French come to terms with your name? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 23:15:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-169.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDE537B405; Tue, 28 May 2002 23:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4T6FVn00990; Tue, 28 May 2002 23:15:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 23:15:30 -0700 From: David Schultz To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020528231530.A897@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020529123333.G82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020529123333.G82424@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:33:33PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Greg 'groggy' Lehey : > > It's usual, in Spanish, to translate the name of a person, and keep the > > original surname. IMHO it's totally correct. So you could either say > > Johan Sebastian Bach, or Juan Sebastian Bach, both of which would be > > correct. I think the same can be applied to french and other languages. > > OTOH, some names are fully translated in english: Cristobal Colon -> > > Christopher Columbus. I think it makes sense to translate names, now, > > surnames, that I find a bit odd. > > I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I look on names as not being part > of a language, more a tag, so the spelling shouldn't be changed. > There's still a significant issue when transliterating from one > language to another, though. It's also a problem in declined languages, in which it's often necessary to attach suffixes to foreign names. As I've said before, English is far from being the worst offender. My take on the matter is that people should be able to pronounce the words in their own language, even if they have to mutilate foreign words to do so. On the other hand, if I picked up a German document, I *expect* that I would recognize any English proper nouns in it, but I wouldn't say that I have a *right* to recognize them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 23:34:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE36C37B408 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 23:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-141-75.dial.proxad.net [62.147.141.75]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC19365 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 08:34:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 8319 invoked by uid 1001); 29 May 2002 06:33:55 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 08:33:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Miguel Mendez , David Schultz , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529063355.GB8243@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020528152013.M37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529124238.H82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020529124238.H82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 29, 2002 at 12:42:38: > How do the French come to terms with your name? They pronounce my first name like the French "Raoul" (and sometimes spell it that way too). In the second name, they elongate the "i", leave out the stress in "ddh" and "th", and pronounce the last "an" the French way with a nasal ending (it should be more like the French "jeune" but I'm not changing the spelling for their benefit....) It's still recognizable. In any case, English speakers often have trouble with my name too. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 23:35: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEBD37B406 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 23:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-141-75.dial.proxad.net [62.147.141.75]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C89781 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 08:34:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 8295 invoked by uid 1001); 29 May 2002 06:26:39 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 08:26:39 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: David Schultz , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529062638.GA8243@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529123150.F82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020529123150.F82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 29, 2002 at 12:31:50: > > In French it's normal to drop accents when it's inconvenient to write > > them (and, often, in capital letters even when it is possible to write > > them). > > Yes, French is different in that way. One of the reasons is that > they're accents, not different letters, and there's little ambiguity > if you leave them out. That's not the case in German: they are > different letters, and changing the letters makes the words ambiguous. > For example, "Rachen" means "throat" and "Rächen" (or "Raechen" if you > don't have the characters) means "Avenge". Well, in French "à" means "at" and "a" means "(third person) has". "Parle" (speak, present tense) is different from "parlé" (participle). The slogan of the bus company in Grenoble, "Nous allons où vous allez" means "we go where you go", but if you dropped the accent it would mean "we go or you go". That doesn't stop people from dropping the accent when on an inappropriate keyboard, or when writing in capitals unless they badly want to avoid confusion (eg the Grenoble bus company uses the accent even in capital letters). > > It makes sense to me. "Godel" is the normal spelling in English. > > It's not an English word. He lived in America for the latter part of his life, and chose that spelling (at least the evidence suggests so). Many people choose to spell their names explicitly with "oe" when writing in languages other than German (the drug company Hoechst does so consistently, even in Germany, I think), but that really became common only in recent decades. > > I agree, every language distorts foreign words and foreign names. > > French is by far the worst offender I've seen (eg, "Jean-Sebastien > > Bach," and I'm not even getting started on names from non-Roman > > scripts like Indian languages). English by and large is not so bad; > > it doesn't have accents "natively", so it's not terribly necessary to > > use them, in my opinion; and unless you're a trained German writer, > > the most obvious way out is to drop them altogether. > > It may be obvious, but that makes it neither correct nor desirable. You're suggesting that everyone who refers to a German name should know the rules of German spelling, which is ridiculous in this globalized day. Either Gödel himself should have spelt it "Goedel" (he did not), or the rest of us should feel free to drop the accent. It's the same with "Schrödinger" which is often written without the accent but almost never written "Schroedinger." As for Handel being written "Händel", that may be true in Germany but not in English-speaking countries. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 28 23:43:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC4237B42F; Tue, 28 May 2002 23:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A05C981461; Wed, 29 May 2002 16:10:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:10:45 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schultz , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529161045.U82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529123150.F82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020529062638.GA8243@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020529062638.GA8243@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 29 May 2002 at 8:26:39 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on May 29, 2002 at 12:31:50: >>> In French it's normal to drop accents when it's inconvenient to write >>> them (and, often, in capital letters even when it is possible to write >>> them). >> >> Yes, French is different in that way. One of the reasons is that >> they're accents, not different letters, and there's little ambiguity >> if you leave them out. That's not the case in German: they are >> different letters, and changing the letters makes the words ambiguous. >> For example, "Rachen" means "throat" and "Rächen" (or "Raechen" if you >> don't have the characters) means "Avenge". > > Well, in French "à" means "at" and "a" means "(third person) has". > "Parle" (speak, present tense) is different from "parlé" (participle). > The slogan of the bus company in Grenoble, "Nous allons où vous allez" > means "we go where you go", but if you dropped the accent it would > mean "we go or you go". That doesn't stop people from dropping the > accent when on an inappropriate keyboard, or when writing in capitals > unless they badly want to avoid confusion (eg the Grenoble bus company > uses the accent even in capital letters). Fine. >>> It makes sense to me. "Godel" is the normal spelling in English. >> >> It's not an English word. > > He lived in America for the latter part of his life, and chose that > spelling (at least the evidence suggests so). Many people choose to > spell their names explicitly with "oe" when writing in languages other > than German (the drug company Hoechst does so consistently, even in > Germany, I think), but that really became common only in recent > decades. Well, in that case it's a red herring. "Hoechst" is spelt like that, and not "Höchst". Yes, that's not correct German spelling, but names don't have to adhere to spelling rules in any language I know--another difference from other words. >>> I agree, every language distorts foreign words and foreign names. >>> French is by far the worst offender I've seen (eg, "Jean-Sebastien >>> Bach," and I'm not even getting started on names from non-Roman >>> scripts like Indian languages). English by and large is not so bad; >>> it doesn't have accents "natively", so it's not terribly necessary to >>> use them, in my opinion; and unless you're a trained German writer, >>> the most obvious way out is to drop them altogether. >> >> It may be obvious, but that makes it neither correct nor desirable. > > You're suggesting that everyone who refers to a German name should > know the rules of German spelling, which is ridiculous in this > globalized day. Not at all. What I'm saying is that not knowing the spelling rules doesn't make your mistakes correct, though it may make them justifiable. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:19:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (as3-4-100.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4490137B403; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4T7Jen00265; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 00:19:35 -0700 From: David Schultz To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529001935.A184@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529123150.F82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020529062638.GA8243@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529161045.U82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020529161045.U82424@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Wed, May 29, 2002 at 04:10:45PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Greg 'groggy' Lehey : > > You're suggesting that everyone who refers to a German name should > > know the rules of German spelling, which is ridiculous in this > > globalized day. > > Not at all. What I'm saying is that not knowing the spelling rules > doesn't make your mistakes correct, though it may make them > justifiable. With natural languages, if enough people consistently make the same `mistake', doesn't that mean it isn't a mistake anymore? Just because something is spelled differently in German than it is in English doesn't mean someone has to be wrong. Moreover, there's no rule that says the original spelling is somehow `more correct.' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:41:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A30037B404; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [137.120.142.179] (root@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4SEDTF25793; Tue, 28 May 2002 10:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020528152013.M37937@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF1CD8C.C3262181@mindspring.com> <20020527014353.B1951@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528091410.G29491@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020528001001.GA20175@hades.hell.gr> <20020528095208.A16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527175613.A1214@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528102802.K16567@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020527184817.A1485@HAL9000.wox.org> <20020528104311.A37937@lpt.ens.fr> <20020528150600.A79546@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020528152013.M37937@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:09:38 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Miguel Mendez From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Cc: David Schultz , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:20 PM +0200 2002/05/28, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Hm, maybe it's because I'm not from the European culture, but it > doesn't make so much sense to me... I don't see a distinction between > the first name and the surname from this point of view. Yup, it's a pretty European thing. My "name" is "Knowles", but my "forename" is "Brad". For many Europeans, it has been my experience that if I tried to introduce myself as "Brad Knowles", they would either get horribly confused or try to call me "Mr. Brad" or somesuch. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:42: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD8E37B407 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [137.120.142.179] (root@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4SCorF21388; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020527200708.GB441@foo31-146.visit.se> References: <20020522050350.GA266@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523124604.Z45715@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> <20020527200708.GB441@foo31-146.visit.se> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 14:49:00 +0200 To: Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 PM +0200 2002/05/27, Martin Karlsson wrote: > Are there American myths of this sort about Canadians or Mexicans? For those people who have any thoughts whatsoever about Canadians or Mexicans, yes. Supposedly, all Candians say "eh" (pronounced "aay") a lot, and all Mexicans supposedly wear sombreros and sleep outside on the porch of their house with their knees tucked to their chest, especially during the hours of 12:00 Noon and 3:00 PM. > To my way of thinking, a major part of who I am is my language. > Descartes said "I think, therefore I am", but I'd like to change > that to "I speak and share a language with my neighbors, therefore I > am". If you aren't allowed to communicate in your language, you > aren't allowed to be who you are. I would agree. I believe that the people in the Basque region of Spain would also agree. > Of course I think that if one migrates to a new country, priority > one is to learn the language of that country, As a foreigner living in Belgium, I would agree. However, there is something out-of-whack when a significant portion of the population living in that country speaks a language which is not officially recognized (e.g., English) and there is an officially recognized linguistic minority that is even smaller than this unrecognized minority (e.g., German). Moreover, if the country in question is officially multi-lingual, they should accept any of the officially recognized languages and not insist that you have no right to exist unless you speak a particular officially recognized language. A person I was talking to here at SANE 2002 mentioned that if a Flemish speaking person and a Dutch speaking person went into a restaurant or bar operated by a French speaking person, it would not be unusual at all for the person speaking Dutch to be understood perfectly well, while the person speaking Flemish gets nowhere -- the proprietor is just being an asshole. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:42: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B66B37B406; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [137.120.142.179] (root@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4SComF21380; Tue, 28 May 2002 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CF2710E.BE2710EC@mindspring.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3CF2710E.BE2710EC@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 14:28:53 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:46 AM -0700 2002/05/27, Terry Lambert wrote: > You know, I was going to liken driver's training and playing such > situations over in your head before the event itself, to a "kata", > which is (basically) a martial arts technique for training reflexes to > carry through into useful actions. But then I thought "Naw, they'd > never buy that one". 8-). Actually, I understand the kata reference perfectly. Indeed, I would note the example of my father when he goes driving -- he is constantly checking to see what cars are around him and especially behind him to the left and right (i.e., in the blind spots), so that if there is ever a situation where he needs to make an emergency lane change, he will automatically make the right choice. This is a reflex, at least for him. He doesn't drive particularly fast, but I've never once seen him make the wrong decision in these kinds of cases. Situational awareness is something that comes naturally to some people, and needs to be taught to others. But either way, with sufficient practice, it really does become reflex. Perhaps a learned reflex and not an innate one, but a reflex nonetheless. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:44:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693BD37B406 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [137.120.142.179] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4RBQFF23550; Mon, 27 May 2002 07:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 13:09:23 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 AM +0200 2002/05/27, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the >> language(s) in which you are able to think. > > We don't think in languages -- we think abstractly. That is why one > is sometimes at a loss for the "mot juste" -- you know what you want > to say but not how to say it. This is not true. You are not a truly fluent speaker of a language until you think in that language. However, that can have it's own set of problems. If you speak a half-dozen languages, trying to find the right word for the right object in the right language can take quite some time. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:44:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA2437B409; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [137.120.142.179] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4RBQOF23559; Mon, 27 May 2002 07:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Your copy of Outlook will expire in 3 days. Please contact Microsoft about purchasing a new license. Remember: software piracy is a felony! Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 13:14:14 +0200 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Cc: pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:45 AM +0930 2002/05/27, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of > you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, > if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, > if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's > not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the > gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into > language is too slow for your own thoughts. I would argue that this issue is handled largely by reflex, with relatively little conscious thought. What conscious thought has gone into this process happened before the situation began, so your reflex is going to be guided by your memory of the overall situation immediately before the unexpected occurrence. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:51:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA7937B403 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0D98D81430; Wed, 29 May 2002 17:21:36 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:21:36 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529172136.W82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 13:09:23 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:56 AM +0200 2002/05/27, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >>> Your ability to think about certain concepts is constrained by the >>> language(s) in which you are able to think. >> >> We don't think in languages -- we think abstractly. That is why one >> is sometimes at a loss for the "mot juste" -- you know what you want >> to say but not how to say it. > > This is not true. You are not a truly fluent speaker of a > language until you think in that language. And if you never learnt a language, you don't think? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 0:54:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C67C37B400 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 00:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5935781461; Wed, 29 May 2002 17:24:04 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:24:04 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , pgreen , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529172404.X82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3CF17486.F06F3E6A@mindspring.com> <20020527104558.B43610@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 27 May 2002 at 13:14:14 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:45 AM +0930 2002/05/27, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> Imagine you're driving down a crowded freeway and a car in front of >> you suddenly stops. You have to avoid it. How do you do it? "Well, >> if I veer to the left, I may hit the gravel on the side of the road, >> if I veer to the right, I may hit the central reservation, but there's >> not enough space between the lanes for me to get through, so maybe the >> gravel's the least risk"? Of course not. Putting thoughts into >> language is too slow for your own thoughts. > > I would argue that this issue is handled largely by reflex, with > relatively little conscious thought. What conscious thought has gone > into this process happened before the situation began, so your reflex > is going to be guided by your memory of the overall situation > immediately before the unexpected occurrence. Maybe we have a difference of terminology here. There's a difference between this kind of "reflex" and the kind of reflex which makes your leg kick when you're hit on the knee. I suspect what I call thinking is what you call reflex, and what you call "conscious thought" is really formulating your thoughts in language. A corollary to this is: if the languages you speak don't have any words to express a thought, can you think it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 1:37: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503EF37B404 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 01:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A0E3C3FC2D; Wed, 29 May 2002 10:36:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 10:36:54 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Brad Knowles Cc: Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020529103654.A51106@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> <20020527200708.GB441@foo31-146.visit.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 28, 2002 at 02:49:00PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 28, 2002 at 02:49:00PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: Hi, > For those people who have any thoughts whatsoever about Canadians=20 > or Mexicans, yes. Supposedly, all Candians say "eh" (pronounced=20 > "aay") a lot, and all Mexicans supposedly wear sombreros and sleep=20 > outside on the porch of their house with their knees tucked to their=20 > chest, especially during the hours of 12:00 Noon and 3:00 PM. LOL, that's a common myth, yes. I actually find it funny :) > I would agree. I believe that the people in the Basque region of=20 > Spain would also agree. Well, I was born in the Basque region (San Sebastian, if you want to know), and, guess what, almost no one gives a fsck about basque. Until very recently there weren't even written documents in that language, so they had to come up with a way to write it. The Basque region also didn't have a flag, so they took some acid overdose and copied the brittish one :-) Unfortunately, there's still a very big problem with 'nationalism', which is mainly the reason why the basque language was started to be taught again in schools. IMHO, basque is as useful as trying to write Unix in COBOL, but some people see it as the basque identity or something. > A person I was talking to here at SANE 2002 mentioned that if a=20 > Flemish speaking person and a Dutch speaking person went into a=20 > restaurant or bar operated by a French speaking person, it would not=20 > be unusual at all for the person speaking Dutch to be understood=20 > perfectly well, while the person speaking Flemish gets nowhere -- the=20 > proprietor is just being an asshole. That seems to happen everywhere, I'm afraid. One summer I and some friends went to Valencia, where they speak a catalonian-esque language. No matter how loud I said it every time, the girl from a local pizzeria insisted in speaking valencian to me all the time. I concluded she was either trolling me or simply too stupid :) At least she looked good :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE89JMmnLctrNyFFPERAuDmAJ0erG2BN+C63u4ugX1Pmg+0yXuiUQCgyjYH S+EZrL0Nxw+ELIamHZ5/KI0= =xMxq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 8:26:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.k12us.com (mail.k12us.com [65.112.222.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B03337B405 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 52132 invoked by uid 1001); 29 May 2002 15:26:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 11:26:25 -0400 From: Christopher Weimann To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss Message-ID: <20020529112624.C24935@mail.k12us.com> References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529172136.W82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020529172136.W82424@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Wed, May 29, 2002 at 05:21:36PM +0930 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 05:21:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > This is not true. You are not a truly fluent speaker of a > > language until you think in that language. > > And if you never learnt a language, you don't think? > No, you would think differently. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 13: 6: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378FF37B400; Wed, 29 May 2002 13:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0344.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.89] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17D9hr-0006LM-00; Wed, 29 May 2002 13:06:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF5348B.A2147399@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:05:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Weimann Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <3CF16722.F4236AC8@mindspring.com> <20020526225602.GC1562@lpt.ens.fr> <20020529172136.W82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020529112624.C24935@mail.k12us.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christopher Weimann wrote: > On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 05:21:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > This is not true. You are not a truly fluent speaker of a > > > language until you think in that language. > > > > And if you never learnt a language, you don't think? > > > > No, you would think differently. And buy a Macintosh. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 13:31:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrami.homeunix.org (cvg-65-27-234-39.cinci.rr.com [65.27.234.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E1437B403; Wed, 29 May 2002 13:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by mrami.homeunix.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4TKV6O15615; Wed, 29 May 2002 16:31:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Terry Lambert Cc: Christopher Weimann , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , pgreen , Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss In-Reply-To: <3CF5348B.A2147399@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020529162821.I15243-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Christopher Weimann wrote: > > On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 05:21:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > > > And if you never learnt a language, you don't think? > > > > > > > No, you would think differently. > > And buy a Macintosh. That's not 'differently'; just plain different. Marc (just plain different). -- I telnetted to whitehouse.gov, and all I got was this lousy .signature! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 13:37:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E0537B400; Wed, 29 May 2002 13:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0344.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.89] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DABs-0003sl-00; Wed, 29 May 2002 13:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF53BD0.409F26AB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 13:36:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Ramirez Cc: Christopher Weimann , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss References: <20020529162821.I15243-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc Ramirez wrote: > On Wed, 29 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Christopher Weimann wrote: > > > On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 05:21:36PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > > > > > And if you never learnt a language, you don't think? > > > > > > > > > > No, you would think differently. > > > > And buy a Macintosh. > > That's not 'differently'; just plain different. > > Marc (just plain different). "Think different*ly* (and grammatically correctly)" ? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 14:45:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp4.knology.net (user-24-214-63-227.knology.net [24.214.63.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CCBE237B423 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 14:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25180 invoked by uid 8002); 29 May 2002 21:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grumpy.dyndns.org) (24.214.210.89) by smtp4.knology.net with SMTP; 29 May 2002 21:45:25 -0000 Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4TLjFuX043347 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 16:45:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4TLjFhA043346 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 May 2002 16:45:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:45:14 -0500 From: David Kelly To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Message-ID: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe this is better suited to FreeBSD-questions but thought to try here first: Dropped my nice beige FreeBSD hat on Alabama red clay dust, which stuck like glue. Know any safe ways to wash it? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 16:51:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAF037B405 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 16:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id CF3728148E; Thu, 30 May 2002 09:21:06 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:21:06 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020530092106.D82424@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523061551.GA237@lpt.ens.fr> <20020523155541.H230@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <20020525175337.F84264@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020526094106.GA345@foo31-146.visit.se> <3CF15CAD.C05C6BEE@mindspring.com> <20020527200708.GB441@foo31-146.visit.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 28 May 2002 at 14:49:00 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:07 PM +0200 2002/05/27, Martin Karlsson wrote: >> Of course I think that if one migrates to a new country, priority >> one is to learn the language of that country, > > As a foreigner living in Belgium, I would agree. However, there > is something out-of-whack when a significant portion of the > population living in that country speaks a language which is not > officially recognized (e.g., English) and there is an officially > recognized linguistic minority that is even smaller than this > unrecognized minority (e.g., German). JOOI, if you leave Bruxelles and go out into the countryside, what's the situation there? I can't recall a large amount of English being spoken outside Brussel, and you've got to admit that that city is particularly unusual. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 17: 2:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4683B37B403 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0140.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.140] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DDOz-0005N8-00; Wed, 29 May 2002 17:02:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:02:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? References: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > Maybe this is better suited to FreeBSD-questions but thought to try here > first: Dropped my nice beige FreeBSD hat on Alabama red clay dust, which > stuck like glue. Know any safe ways to wash it? Clay: Use a phosphate based detergent; the old non-eco-safe "Tide" is the best one I'd recommend. Yeah, phosphates are bad for the environment: the environment is mostly dirt, and phosphates get rid of dirt. Go figure. (I spent several years growing up in an area where there was enough clay that if you went out after it rained, your feet would be twice as big on the way in as they were on the way out. 8-)). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 18: 3:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.knology.net (user-24-214-63-14.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 60CB937B403 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 18:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15902 invoked by uid 8002); 30 May 2002 01:03:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grumpy.dyndns.org) (24.214.210.89) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 30 May 2002 01:03:40 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: David Kelly To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 20:03:39 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 29 May 2002 07:02 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > Maybe this is better suited to FreeBSD-questions but thought to try > > here first: Dropped my nice beige FreeBSD hat on Alabama red clay > > dust, which stuck like glue. Know any safe ways to wash it? > > Clay: Use a phosphate based detergent; the old non-eco-safe "Tide" > is the best one I'd recommend. > > Yeah, phosphates are bad for the environment: the environment is > mostly dirt, and phosphates get rid of dirt. Go figure. > > (I spent several years growing up in an area where there was enough > clay that if you went out after it rained, your feet would be twice > as big on the way in as they were on the way out. 8-)). I was too brief. The hat says its 100% cotton but I'm worried about the bill being made of cardboard or something which would be destroyed if I put it in the washing machine. Fortunately the dirt and the hat are pretty close in color. All of my "white" socks are red clay stained. Bleach does no good. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 18:10:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E5B37B400 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 18:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g4U1An815322; Wed, 29 May 2002 18:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 18:10:48 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Message-ID: <20020529181048.A31662@ehlke.net> References: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net>; from dkelly@HiWAAY.net on Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:03:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:03:39PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > I was too brief. The hat says its 100% cotton but I'm worried about the > bill being made of cardboard or something which would be destroyed if I > put it in the washing machine. > I don't wear baseball caps, but I do recall having seen plastic frames designed to support them and maintain their shape through a washing. If you're in the US, your local K-Mart, Wal-Mart, or, if you're in or near a more agricultural area, farmer's supply store may have such devices. -Pete To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 18:29: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B536337B409 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 18:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20794; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:28:30 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020529192425.02f2ff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 19:28:27 -0600 To: Pete Ehlke , David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020529181048.A31662@ehlke.net> References: <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 PM 5/29/2002, Pete Ehlke wrote: >I don't wear baseball caps, but I do recall having seen plastic frames >designed to support them and maintain their shape through a washing. If >you're in the US, your local K-Mart, Wal-Mart, or, if you're in or near >a more agricultural area, farmer's supply store may have such devices. I have one of these frames; the brand name is "Ball Cap Buddy" and it works like a charm. I run caps through the dishwasher with it, on the upper rack, using non-chlorine dishwasher detergent (Seventh Generation brand gel, available at any health food store; look for the light blue bottle). Works like a charm. Don't worry about the hat's bill being unwashable; I've never had a baseball cap whose bill had any trouble with washing. Oh, and if you can, use a good, strong vacuum cleaner to vacuum as much clay as possible off of the hat before washing it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 18:38:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6303F37B400 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 18:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 469C9239A02; Wed, 29 May 2002 18:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 18:38:39 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Message-ID: <20020530013839.GD92646@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-05-29 20:03 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > David Kelly wrote: > > > Maybe this is better suited to FreeBSD-questions but thought to try > > > here first: Dropped my nice beige FreeBSD hat on Alabama red clay > > > dust, which stuck like glue. Know any safe ways to wash it? >=20 > I was too brief. The hat says its 100% cotton but I'm worried about the= =20 > bill being made of cardboard or something which would be destroyed if I= =20 > put it in the washing machine. For the well-worn look, just put it in the washer. When it comes out, reshape it by putting it on your head and adjusting the brim to the shape you want, then hang dry. (Remove from your head before hanging to dry.) I can't warrant how long your headgear will last, but it will be nicely broken in after a washing or two. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@zer0.org "You uudecode it." http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE89YKfIBUx1YRd/t0RAtBPAJ4hRDFx/UBYL1RqyQtWo+3p42NJmwCbBJT/ NU3GAkyY14h+VlUlZenlNxE= =m1bc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BRE3mIcgqKzpedwo-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 19:12:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAB037B41B for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4U1jaj84971; Wed, 29 May 2002 21:45:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:45:36 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? In-Reply-To: <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > Maybe this is better suited to FreeBSD-questions but thought to try here > > first: Dropped my nice beige FreeBSD hat on Alabama red clay dust, which > > stuck like glue. Know any safe ways to wash it? > > Clay: Use a phosphate based detergent; the old non-eco-safe "Tide" > is the best one I'd recommend. > > Yeah, phosphates are bad for the environment: the environment is > mostly dirt, and phosphates get rid of dirt. Go figure. > > (I spent several years growing up in an area where there was enough > clay that if you went out after it rained, your feet would be twice > as big on the way in as they were on the way out. 8-)). > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Hmm. One of a lesser mind than I would ponder the benefits of using this biggening clay for other body parts. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 19:23: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E5037B400 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4U2N0Ph092141; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:23:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4U2MxVo092140; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 19:22:59 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: pgreen Cc: Terry Lambert , David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Message-ID: <20020529192259.A92004@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org on Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:45:36PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can't believe I'm going to write this, but... On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:45:36PM -0400, pgreen wrote: > > (I spent several years growing up in an area where there was enough > > clay that if you went out after it rained, your feet would be twice > > as big on the way in as they were on the way out. 8-)). > Hmm. One of a lesser mind than I would ponder the benefits of using this > biggening clay for other body parts. The parts you're thinking of usually are twice as big on the way in as on the way out. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 29 19:36:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9134D37B412 for ; Wed, 29 May 2002 19:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4U2aS105047; Wed, 29 May 2002 21:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g4U2aSp22813; Wed, 29 May 2002 21:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (andersonpc [192.168.42.18]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4U2aO622806; Wed, 29 May 2002 21:36:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CF59074.F6C0FAB9@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:37:40 -0500 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Kelly , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? References: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > (I spent several years growing up in an area where there was enough > clay that if you went out after it rained, your feet would be twice > as big on the way in as they were on the way out. 8-)). Sounds like Texas. That or on a windy dry day, you end up with it in your ears, and sometimes in places that don't see all that much light. It's a wonder of science. Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 0:56: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC76737B406 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 00:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0168.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.168] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DKmo-0000cX-00; Thu, 30 May 2002 00:55:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF5DAE6.81EF6356@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 00:55:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? References: <20020529164514.A43327@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3CF56C08.149E91E1@mindspring.com> <200205292003.39397.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > On Wednesday 29 May 2002 07:02 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > > David Kelly wrote: > > > Maybe this is better suited to FreeBSD-questions but thought to try > > > here first: Dropped my nice beige FreeBSD hat on Alabama red clay > > > dust, which stuck like glue. Know any safe ways to wash it? > > > > Clay: Use a phosphate based detergent; the old non-eco-safe "Tide" > > is the best one I'd recommend. > > > > Yeah, phosphates are bad for the environment: the environment is > > mostly dirt, and phosphates get rid of dirt. Go figure. > > > > (I spent several years growing up in an area where there was enough > > clay that if you went out after it rained, your feet would be twice > > as big on the way in as they were on the way out. 8-)). > > I was too brief. The hat says its 100% cotton but I'm worried about the > bill being made of cardboard or something which would be destroyed if I > put it in the washing machine. Don't dry it in the dryer. You may also want to "stack" the bill to keep it from curling. But mostly, the bills have plastic, not cardboard, inside. > Fortunately the dirt and the hat are pretty close in color. > > All of my "white" socks are red clay stained. Bleach does no good. Clay won't come out with bleach. The interesting thing about clay is that the particles are incredibly small, and can carry a static charge. Typically, this means that when they get into the wash water, unless you have something incredibly electronegative to displace it, then you get a colloidal suspension. It goes right back in the socks, and loves the surface tension boundary. This is pretty much why it doesn't want to go away. You can pretty much demonstrate this to yourself by putting the "stained" socks into the sink, putting hot water in the singe with them, and as much table salt as you can, to get some really fierce ions in solution. You'll get to see the clay particles stay in your sink, and it will get (some) of them out of the socks. You can also try "dawn" diswashing liquid -- NOT the "New Fast Action"... the stuff that works. THis is actually what spas use to get massage oil and the clay from mud baths out of sheets and towels. This works because dawn dishwashing liquid is actually one of the best surfactants out there. You could do the same trick with alum as with the salt... and get better results. But then you will never get the alum out of your socks. 8-) 8-). Probably, your really white socks are goners. You should put them in the dryer when washing other socks, as sacrifices to the dryer sock fairies... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 0:59:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F71737B406 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 00:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0168.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.168] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DKqO-0002Vx-00; Thu, 30 May 2002 00:59:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF5DBC4.67569939@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 00:59:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > Hmm. One of a lesser mind than I would ponder the benefits of using this > biggening clay for other body parts. You mean for gloves and hats instead of shoes? It's incredibly heavy... about equal to the same volume of gravel. If you want to run your own experiments, then go to any part of the country that has the concept of a "mud room". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 3:39:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foo31-146.visit.se (foo31-146.visit.se [62.119.31.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A44837B408 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 03:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by foo31-146.visit.se (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 05A1F6AB1F; Thu, 30 May 2002 12:39:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 12:39:38 +0200 From: Martin Karlsson To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Washing Beige Beastie Hat? Message-ID: <20020530103938.GA528@foo31-146.visit.se> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Karlsson , Terry Lambert , pgreen , David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF5DBC4.67569939@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF5DBC4.67569939@mindspring.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5970 BE22 2C33 4D8F 53FD 7E34 66FF 9332 9C92 4660 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Terry Lambert [2002-05-30 00.59 -0700]: > pgreen wrote: > > Hmm. One of a lesser mind than I would ponder the benefits of using th= is > > biggening clay for other body parts. >=20 > You mean for gloves and hats instead of shoes? >=20 Hey, that'd be great for football (i.e. _real_ football (round ball, 11 players in each team...)) goalkeepers! Twice as big hands -> twice as many = saves! --=20 Martin Karlsson GPG/PGP public key: 0x9C924660 --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE89gFpZv+TMpySRmARAs/jAKCVcQmuHfC+AsMDJaEYK3VKFIHRIACgnzR7 csImXx2EqBPMRcwvk+dvtqI= =vJZV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 6:41:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (office.netstyle.com.ua [213.186.199.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F9337B404; Thu, 30 May 2002 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4UDfgj3013408; Thu, 30 May 2002 16:41:42 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@mile.nevermind.kiev.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4UDfgTW013407; Thu, 30 May 2002 16:41:42 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:41:42 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Richard Ward Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020530134142.GB86256@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <200205291636.g4TGaZX40801@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020530133429.GA86256@nevermind.kiev.ua> <000a01c207df$59b08fc0$5ce659d8@workstation> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000a01c207df$59b08fc0$5ce659d8@workstation> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Richard Ward! On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 09:38:50AM -0400, you wrote: > Must we really nit-pick about this? Be thankful that the advisory reached > you in a timely manor and move on. Yes, of course, bug thanks to all FreeBSD community, but if we won't note small things, they will accumulate. > > > Windows, as their existence could prevent one from restarting the X > > > Windows server. > > Please, read man 7 X, and see, that X is called "X Window", not "X > > Windows". -- NEVE-RIPE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 6:48:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imation.homenetweb.com (noc-p5-3-ky-4.homenetweb.com [216.7.67.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4768937B406 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 06:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from workstation (d2i-dialin-92.kl.terranova.net [216.89.230.92]) by imation.homenetweb.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g4UDmM4j017886; Thu, 30 May 2002 09:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001501c207e0$b3c02ce0$5ce659d8@workstation> From: "Richard Ward" To: "Alexandr Kovalenko" Cc: References: <200205291636.g4TGaZX40801@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020530133429.GA86256@nevermind.kiev.ua> <000a01c207df$59b08fc0$5ce659d8@workstation> <20020530134142.GB86256@nevermind.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:48:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may be, but something as unimportant as a typo which most read as "X Window" automatically would not be of great concern. I will not comment further because this thread has "flame" written all over it. -- Richard Ward, Founder. http://www.greyhat.org Grey Hat Consortium -- Intelligent Internet Security. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandr Kovalenko" To: "Richard Ward" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 9:41 AM Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc > Hello, Richard Ward! > > On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 09:38:50AM -0400, you wrote: > > > Must we really nit-pick about this? Be thankful that the advisory reached > > you in a timely manor and move on. > Yes, of course, bug thanks to all FreeBSD community, but if we won't > note small things, they will accumulate. > > > > > Windows, as their existence could prevent one from restarting the X > > > > Windows server. > > > Please, read man 7 X, and see, that X is called "X Window", not "X > > > Windows". > > -- > NEVE-RIPE > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 10: 8:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78AE37B401 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4UH8Qp79251 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 19:08:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA02177 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 May 2002 19:08:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 19:08:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RMS uses FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just spotted in a comment on slashdot: netcraft reports that http://www.stallman.org is running on FreeBSD. http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?site=www.stallman.org - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 10:10:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C007937B409 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 10:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g4UHAlX17485 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 30 May 2002 10:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:10:47 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RMS uses FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20020530101047.A1676@ehlke.net> References: <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Thu, May 30, 2002 at 07:08:24PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 07:08:24PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Just spotted in a comment on slashdot: netcraft reports that > http://www.stallman.org is running on FreeBSD. > YM "FreeGnuSD". HTH. ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 10:30:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F124C37B40C for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1E5523FC5B; Thu, 30 May 2002 19:30:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 19:30:11 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RMS uses FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20020530193011.A61140@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org References: <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Thu, May 30, 2002 at 07:08:24PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 07:08:24PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Hi, > Just spotted in a comment on slashdot: netcraft reports that > http://www.stallman.org is running on FreeBSD. Of course, you mean GNU/FreeBSD ;-) To be honest I find it quite funny, yet it seems a pretty good choise, you don't want to host your site on a box running The Hurd :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE89mGinLctrNyFFPERArEaAKCLeSODgzcTVnoo8gX7SweZPM1kpgCfcBnO xyb9uQeqXPOQizCXyRR77Kc= =ZugZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 20:27:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrami.homeunix.org (cvg-65-27-234-39.cinci.rr.com [65.27.234.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFFA37B403 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 20:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by mrami.homeunix.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4V3RJT02454; Thu, 30 May 2002 23:27:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@mrami.homeunix.org) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:27:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Language in danger: Language loss In-Reply-To: <3CF53BD0.409F26AB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020530232516.B2431-100000@mrami.homeunix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Marc Ramirez wrote: > > On Wed, 29 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Christopher Weimann wrote: > > > > > > > No, you would think differently. > > > > > > And buy a Macintosh. > > > > That's not 'differently'; just plain different. > > "Think different*ly* (and grammatically correctly)" > > ? I agree one hundred percent, but Apple wrote it, not me. :) They deserve the ?. Like Daddy George said, "who do you trust?" Marc. -- I telnetted to whitehouse.gov, and all I got was this lousy .signature! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 30 23: 3:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFFA37B409 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 23:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsdbox.tk (d57-117-31.home.cgocable.net [24.57.117.31]) by fep2.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF384378A for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 02:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nautilus b0rked? From: Muhannad Asfour To: chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-YIicANT0YHxQ1SMe14rL" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 31 May 2002 02:02:52 -0400 Message-Id: <1022824987.44003.0.camel@bsdbox.tk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-YIicANT0YHxQ1SMe14rL Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did anyone else notice a loss of text in Nautilus when the freetype2 port was upgraded? Thanks --=-YIicANT0YHxQ1SMe14rL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA89xIMck977FUKFQQRAncdAJ9NvVOSNPQZtqx3rY2+4vWhR3fylwCeJ24g AKo9B+mW4UjqIhijnp//Sg4= =ULgH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-YIicANT0YHxQ1SMe14rL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 0:15: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5CF37B407 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 00:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-62-147-148-120.dial.proxad.net [62.147.148.120]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF254310 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 09:14:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1183 invoked by uid 1001); 31 May 2002 07:14:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:14:54 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Muhannad Asfour Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Nautilus b0rked? Message-ID: <20020531071454.GA1163@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1022824987.44003.0.camel@bsdbox.tk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Muhannad Asfour wrote: > Did anyone else notice a loss of text in Nautilus when the freetype2 > port was upgraded? You should be asking the people on -gnome (or -ports), methinks... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 6: 1:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E88437B40A for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 06:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1D50C756F; Fri, 31 May 2002 06:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9D71D8E; Fri, 31 May 2002 06:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 06:03:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Martin Karlsson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual language (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) In-Reply-To: <20020527200708.GB441@foo31-146.visit.se> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Content-Disposition: INLINE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 May 2002, Martin Karlsson wrote: :* Terry Lambert [2002-05-26 15.07 -0700]: :[...snipped good points...] :> Frankly, most people in the U.S. simply can't understand the ethnic :> based conflicts in various parts of the world. From the general :> population's point of view, it's impossible to tell an ethnic Serb :> from an ethnic Croat, unless one of them stands up at a podium and :> yells "_I_ am an _ethnic Serb_!". :I can't (and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this) understand :how one can _not_ understand the ethnic based conflicts in various :parts of the world. The U.S. is perhaps something of a special case in this :respect, because its population is composed of people from :all around the world, with basically only two unifying factors, the :constitution and the English language. : :BTW, did you know that Finns carry knives all the time and basically live in :the sauna, and that Norwegians are somewhat stupid? Well, of course :this is not true(?), but these are "truths" everybody knows in :Sweden. (And Finns asume all Swedish men are gay because... etc. :etc.) :Are there American myths of this sort about Canadians or Mexicans? Canadians are Americans without guns who drink too much and live in the frozen wastelands of the north; Mexicans are the nice Spanish speaking people who join gangs and clean houses and do other shit jobs we don't want, but we bitch about them entering our country anyway. I could possibly make that more offensive if I was really trying, but that's probably enough stereotyping to piss at least a few people off. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 6:47:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lmail.actcom.co.il (mail.actcom.co.il [192.114.47.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1021737B400; Fri, 31 May 2002 06:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.nospam.net (p7.ta1.actcom.co.il [204.141.45.7]) by lmail.actcom.co.il (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4VDla923699; Fri, 31 May 2002 16:47:37 +0300 Message-ID: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:49:57 +0200 From: Well Educated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? Let's use true terms to the things. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 7:10:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E645D37B422; Fri, 31 May 2002 07:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6-2-300.tisys.org (ppp-161.wobline.de [212.68.69.169]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/sh-2002041503) with ESMTP id g4VE9Sw32505; Fri, 31 May 2002 16:09:29 +0200 Received: from daemon.tisys.org (palomino-1533.tisys.org [192.168.0.3]) by k6-2-300.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4VEAXo2004033; Fri, 31 May 2002 16:10:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nils@daemon.tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by daemon.tisys.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4VEAOjV000680; Fri, 31 May 2002 16:10:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:10:24 +0200 From: Nils Holland To: Well Educated Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531161024.A616@daemon.tisys.org> References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net>; from nospam@nospam.nospam.net on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:49:57PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD palomino-1533.tisys.org 4.6-RC FreeBSD 4.6-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 4:05PM up 9:47, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.10, 0.07 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:49:57PM +0200, Well Educated stood up and spoke: > "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? > Let's use true terms to the things. Hmm, I've never been someone who likes endless debates about small bits and pieces which have no effect at all on, well, anything. In context of the Security Advisory, I don't think that writing "X Windows" instead of "X" or "X Window System" introduces a security hole, or makes it hard to understand what the Advisory is talking about. Therefore, I guess most people have better things to do than to worry about this one... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - http://www.tisys.org Addicted to computing since 1987 High on FreeBSD since 1996 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 7:55:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lmail.actcom.co.il (mail.actcom.co.il [192.114.47.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7453F37B407; Fri, 31 May 2002 07:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.nospam.net (p7.ta1.actcom.co.il [204.141.45.7]) by lmail.actcom.co.il (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4VEte915036; Fri, 31 May 2002 17:55:41 +0300 Message-ID: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:58:01 +0200 From: Well Educated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Nils Holland Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? >> Let's use true terms to the things. > > Hmm, I've never been someone who likes endless debates about small bits and > pieces which have no effect at all on, well, anything. In context of the > Security Advisory, I don't think that writing "X Windows" instead of "X" or > "X Window System" introduces a security hole, or makes it hard to > understand what the Advisory is talking about. Therefore, I guess most > people have better things to do than to worry about this one... > > Greetings > Nils I didn't say it introduces any security hole or understanding obstacle. But the term "X Windows" just shows crass ignorance of people that use it. Insted of making flames, the typo can be simply corrected. P.S. your reaction casted me to remember the following text :-)) Five year phase-in plan for "EuroEnglish" The European Commission have just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump for joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away. By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a realy sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand each ozer ZE DREAM VIL FINALI KUM TRU! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 8: 2:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rhadamanth.submonkey.net (pc1-card5-0-cust12.cdf.cable.ntl.com [80.3.216.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB2837B406 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.submonkey.net with local (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17Dnv8-000Dvb-00; Fri, 31 May 2002 16:02:26 +0100 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:02:26 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Well Educated Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Nils Holland Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531150226.GA35413@submonkey.net> References: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 05:58:01PM +0200, Well Educated wrote: > >> "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? > >> Let's use true terms to the things. > > > > Hmm, I've never been someone who likes endless debates about small bits and > > pieces which have no effect at all on, well, anything. In context of the > > Security Advisory, I don't think that writing "X Windows" instead of "X" or > > "X Window System" introduces a security hole, or makes it hard to > > understand what the Advisory is talking about. Therefore, I guess most > > people have better things to do than to worry about this one... > > I didn't say it introduces any security hole or understanding obstacle. But the term "X Windows" > just shows crass ignorance of people that use it. Insted of making flames, the typo can be simply > corrected. Perhaps it would be best if you told us exactly what you think it refers to so that we can correct you. "X Windows" is not really a typo, although I have witnessed holy wars where people insisted it should be "X Window". It's certainly nothing to do with XP. Now who's showing crass ignorance ? Ceri -- you can't see when light's so strong you can't see when light is gone To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 8: 4: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E5837B404 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 08:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g4VF3np52140 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 17:03:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA60520 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 May 2002 17:03:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:03:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531170349.A60313@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net>; from nospam@nospam.nospam.net on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 05:58:01PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well Educated said on May 31, 2002 at 17:58:01: > >> "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? > >> Let's use true terms to the things. [snip] > people that use it. Insted of making flames, the typo can be simply > corrected. Let's also use true grammar to the English. Insted of making bandwidth wastage, the fresh air outside can simply be sampled. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 8:20:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585BA37B407; Fri, 31 May 2002 08:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.147] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id A45B6D9003E; Fri, 31 May 2002 10:18:51 -0500 Message-ID: <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Well Educated" , Cc: References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:19:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Well Educated" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:49 AM Subject: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc > "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? > Let's use true terms to the things. In spite of the fact that "Well-Educated" [1] doesn't seem to be so and nospam.net doesn't seem to be "no-spam," [2] here's an answer: X is not the first window system written for Unix, but it is the most popular. X's original development team had worked on another window system before writing X. That system's name was ``W'' (for ``Window''). X is just the next letter in the Roman alphabet. X can be called ``X'', ``X Window System'', ``X11'', and other terms. Calling X11 ``X Windows'' can offend some people; see X(1) for a bit more insight on this. ---FreeBSD Handbook, Ch. 5.2.1[3] Now I could be wrong about [1] and [2] but [3] seems spot on. Also, a recent thread on one of the lists addressed this issue. So, Jacques accidentally touched the "s" key, is it really worth complaining about? KDK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 9:16:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B33E37B407; Fri, 31 May 2002 09:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0290B3FC29; Fri, 31 May 2002 18:15:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 18:15:36 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Nils Holland Cc: Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531181536.A268@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Nils Holland , Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <20020531161024.A616@daemon.tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FCuugMFkClbJLl1L" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020531161024.A616@daemon.tisys.org>; from nils@daemon.tisys.org on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:10:24PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:10:24PM +0200, Nils Holland wrote: > Hmm, I've never been someone who likes endless debates about small bits a= nd > pieces which have no effect at all on, well, anything. In context of the > Security Advisory, I don't think that writing "X Windows" instead of "X" = or > "X Window System" introduces a security hole, or makes it hard to > understand what the Advisory is talking about. Therefore, I guess most > people have better things to do than to worry about this one... LMAO, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS, K, THX Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE896GonLctrNyFFPERArqxAJ9igYKPX7sY3qEJehHA5s0dRCj61wCfYgBw R1Hti01xvq+bHoh6lYmP+YQ= =Fb+N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 9:53:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E9E37B404; Fri, 31 May 2002 09:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4VGrAPh035688; Fri, 31 May 2002 09:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4VGrAkx035687; Fri, 31 May 2002 09:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:53:10 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531095310.D34758@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco>; from kdk@daleco.biz on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:19:37AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:19:37AM -0500, Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > So, Jacques accidentally touched the "s" key, is it really > worth complaining about? That depends on whether it will be accidentally touched in future advisories or not. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 9:56:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (lakemtao01.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED6637B404 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 09:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([68.11.176.181]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020531165604.WOOV29627.lakemtao01.cox.net@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 12:56:04 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020531115447.01a29d78@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:55:58 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: RMS uses FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20020530193011.A61140@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr> <20020530190824.A2001@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wait, is there actually such an operating system in existence? At 12:30 PM 5/30/2002, Miguel Mendez wrote: >you don't want to host your site on a box running The Hurd :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 10: 8:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2350A37B404; Fri, 31 May 2002 10:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.236.17] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id ADC61CF0062; Fri, 31 May 2002 12:07:18 -0500 Message-ID: <008601c208c5$bbf26640$93ec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Matthew Hunt" Cc: "Well Educated" , , References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> <20020531095310.D34758@wopr.caltech.edu> Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:08:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunt" To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: "Well Educated" ; ; Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc > On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:19:37AM -0500, Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > > > So, Jacques accidentally touched the "s" key, is it really > > worth complaining about? > > That depends on whether it will be accidentally touched in future > advisories or not. Touche, indeed. Maybe it's a holdover from ending "Jack" with one, but that's a thread I hope is over.... KDK > > -- > Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 12:33:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB6837B410 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 12:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4BC3F35 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:34:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:33:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: postfix: stopping spam sent to user@host.example.org Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020531193427.DE4BC3F35@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've seen a rise in spam sent to valid addresses handled by the mail server but with a TO: field of Users@host.example.org, where User is some catch phrase, and host.example.org is the host specifed in the MX record for the domain. I'm using postfix. Is there a way to stop this spam? i.e. block all mail with a TO: field containing @host.example.com. Cheers. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 12:40:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C5F37B40A for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 12:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17DsFj-0005jz-00; Fri, 31 May 2002 12:39:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:39:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: postfix: stopping spam sent to user@host.example.org In-Reply-To: <20020531193427.DE4BC3F35@bast.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 31 May 2002, Dan Langille wrote: > I'm using postfix. Is there a way to stop this spam? i.e. block all mail > with a TO: field containing @host.example.com. Have a look at your postfix's main.cf and read the small section about "header_checks". Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 14: 9: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D069D37B407; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0324.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.69] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Dtdn-0002y8-00; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:08:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF7E648.6D968AC5@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:08:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <20020531161024.A616@daemon.tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:49:57PM +0200, Well Educated stood up and spoke: > > "X Windows" - what is it, "XP Windows" or "Windows XP" maybe? > > Let's use true terms to the things. > > Hmm, I've never been someone who likes endless debates about small bits and > pieces which have no effect at all on, well, anything. In context of the > Security Advisory, I don't think that writing "X Windows" instead of "X" or > "X Window System" introduces a security hole, or makes it hard to > understand what the Advisory is talking about. Therefore, I guess most > people have better things to do than to worry about this one... Yeah. And it's not like the Judge ruled that "Windows" is a trademarkable term. It's not; it's common usage. I have no problem continuing to use it commonly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 14:13:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3572D37B40B; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0324.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.69] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17DthM-000027-00; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:12:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF7E724.830661C4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:12:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > X can be called ``X'', ``X Window System'', ``X11'', and > other terms. Calling X11 ``X Windows'' can offend some > people; see X(1) for a bit more insight on this. > ---FreeBSD Handbook, Ch. 5.2.1[3] > > Now I could be wrong about [1] and [2] but [3] seems spot > on. Also, a recent thread on one of the lists addressed this > issue. So, Jacques accidentally touched the "s" key, is it really > worth complaining about? It's worth doing it on purpose, just to identify "some people" so that we can apply a fractional scaling factor to their opinions. 8-). It's the content, not the form, which is important in messages, folks. "X Windows X Windows X Windows X Windows X Windows" -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 14:35:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FE837B408; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daleco [12.145.226.221] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.06) id AC5DFB0242; Fri, 31 May 2002 16:34:21 -0500 Message-ID: <00b401c208eb$09ca8800$93ec910c@daleco> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Well Educated" , , References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> <3CF7E724.830661C4@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 16:35:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > > X can be called ``X'', ``X Window System'', ``X11'', and > > other terms. Calling X11 ``X Windows'' can offend some > > people; see X(1) for a bit more insight on this. > > ---FreeBSD Handbook, Ch. 5.2.1[3] > > > > Now I could be wrong about [1] and [2] but [3] seems spot > > on. Also, a recent thread on one of the lists addressed this > > issue. So, Jacques accidentally touched the "s" key, is it really > > worth complaining about? > > It's worth doing it on purpose, just to identify "some people" > so that we can apply a fractional scaling factor to their > opinions. 8-). It's the content, not the form, which is > important in messages, folks. > > "X Windows X Windows X Windows X Windows X Windows" > > -- Terry Now, from my reading of your posts in general I've opined that you are a pretty good hacker, so are you gonna parse 'em all, make a ratings database and have the mailer tack "two thumbs up" or "push DEL now" depending on who's in the FROM: header? I'd pay a couple bucks some days to have something like that to sort by ... ;-) KDK PS. or how 'bout... \ / \ / \ / Win\/ows Win\/ows Win\/ows / \ / \ / \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 14:45:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A1437B401; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4VLjbPh042745; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:45:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4VLjbIQ042744; Fri, 31 May 2002 14:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:45:36 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531144536.A42486@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> <3CF7E724.830661C4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CF7E724.830661C4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 02:12:04PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 02:12:04PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > It's the content, not the form, which is important in messages, folks. Just as we make a specific effort to write "FreeBSD" instead of "Free BSD", "freebsd", or "FreeBDS" (as often seen on mailing lists) in our official communications, and indeed have standardized on "FreeBSD.org" instead of "freebsd.org", we should respect the wishes of other software authors, and refer to their work in the way that they prefer. Failure to do so indicates that we are ignorant of their wishes or that we are dissmissing them as irrelevant. Neither perception flatters us. -- Matthew Hunt * Clearly there are more things in the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * heavens than anyone anticipated. -enp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 15:18:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B81037B403 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5A23F35 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 18:19:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 18:18:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: postfix: stopping spam sent to user@host.example.org Reply-To: dan@langille.org References: <20020531193427.DE4BC3F35@bast.unixathome.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020531221926.1A5A23F35@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31 May 2002 at 12:39, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Fri, 31 May 2002, Dan Langille wrote: > > > I'm using postfix. Is there a way to stop this spam? i.e. block all > > mail with a TO: field containing @host.example.com. > > Have a look at your postfix's main.cf and read the small section about > "header_checks". Ahh, thank you. Easily done. For future readers, in /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf, I've added this line: header_checks = regexp:/usr/local/etc/postfix/header_checks and header_checks contains: /^to: *@host\.example\.org/ REJECT Then do a "postfix reload". Here is a sample rejection message: May 31 15:55:05 m20 postfix/cleanup[46233]: D37BB7A8D: reject: header To: ; from= to=; I can see myself using this feature quite a bit. Thanks again. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 15:34:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24FE37B40C; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0324.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.69] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Duy7-0006fJ-00; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:34:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3CF7FA34.730A5BB4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:33:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Well Educated , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> <3CF7E724.830661C4@mindspring.com> <20020531144536.A42486@wopr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 02:12:04PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > It's the content, not the form, which is important in messages, folks. > > Just as we make a specific effort to write "FreeBSD" instead of "Free BSD", > "freebsd", or "FreeBDS" (as often seen on mailing lists) in our official > communications, and indeed have standardized on "FreeBSD.org" instead of > "freebsd.org", we should respect the wishes of other software authors, > and refer to their work in the way that they prefer. > > Failure to do so indicates that we are ignorant of their wishes or that > we are dissmissing them as irrelevant. Neither perception flatters us. Totally unlike public flame-fests about spelling, calling attention to the error, making *certain* that people who might otherwise not have seen it and remain unoffended by the mistake, are dragged kicking and screaming into things, right? I think a simple note to the author (instead of a mailing lists) would have accomplished what you *claim* should be accomplished, as opposed to what you appear to really be attempting to accomplish. 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 15:42:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F0D37B400; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g4VMgWPh043952; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:42:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g4VMgV7p043951; Fri, 31 May 2002 15:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:42:31 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Well Educated , freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020531154231.A43905@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> <3CF7E724.830661C4@mindspring.com> <20020531144536.A42486@wopr.caltech.edu> <3CF7FA34.730A5BB4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CF7FA34.730A5BB4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 03:33:24PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 03:33:24PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think a simple note to the author (instead of a mailing lists) would > have accomplished what you *claim* should be accomplished, as opposed > to what you appear to really be attempting to accomplish. 8^p. I agree (or at least think I do, assuming correct parsing), and that's what I would have done if I were the one raising the issue. I refute the notion that the terminology used is unimportant. That does not mean I condone the way in which the subject was brought up. Of course, the guy who started this thread probably won't read my opinion, since he didn't have the decency to use a valid email address. -- Matthew Hunt * Inertia is a property http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * of matter. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 18:27:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lmail.actcom.co.il (smtp.actcom.co.il [192.114.47.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D89E37B404; Fri, 31 May 2002 18:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.nospam.net (p55.ta5.actcom.co.il [192.115.23.165]) by lmail.actcom.co.il (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g511RV930462; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 04:27:31 +0300 Message-ID: <3CF83198.2C92CF9A@nospam.nospam.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 04:29:44 +0200 From: Well Educated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Of course, the guy who started this thread probably won't read my opinion, since he > didn't have the decency to use a valid email address. Because these email lists are publicly available I decided not to use my real email address. I don't want get tons of spam in some future. Your opinion is freely available through http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-security.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 18:47:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imation.homenetweb.com (noc-p5-3-ky-4.homenetweb.com [216.7.67.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E54637B401; Fri, 31 May 2002 18:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from workstation ([216.89.230.39]) by imation.homenetweb.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g511lN4j020208; Fri, 31 May 2002 21:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000a01c2090e$51d8f3c0$27e659d8@workstation> From: "Richard Ward" To: "Well Educated" , "Matthew Hunt" Cc: , References: <3CF83198.2C92CF9A@nospam.nospam.net> Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 21:47:34 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is your mail administrator too lazy to take care of spam so you can have more validation and credibility by using a real e-mail address when posting to a "mailing list?" I'm not trying to start a flame, but I would imagine that if you don't want spam, you shouldn't have an e-mail address at all. I find your excuse to be shady. No offense. Can we take this off 'freebsd-security' now? -- Richard Ward, Founder. http://www.greyhat.org Grey Hat Consortium -- Intelligent Internet Security. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Well Educated" To: "Matthew Hunt" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:29 PM Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc > > Of course, the guy who started this thread probably won't read my > opinion, since he > > didn't have the decency to use a valid email address. > > Because these email lists are publicly available I decided not to use my > real email address. I don't want get tons of spam in some future. Your > opinion is freely available through > http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-security.html > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 20:44:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (lakemtao01.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430CC37B404 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 20:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([68.11.176.181]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020601034449.LND29627.lakemtao01.cox.net@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:44:49 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020531224324.01a451e0@threespace.com> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 22:44:45 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: TAD (technology attachment disorder) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See, this is what I've been saying is wrong with you people all along... http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/05/27/020527opestrat.xml?0531frpm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 21: 0:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34A737B405; Fri, 31 May 2002 21:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (madman.nectar.cc [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F4150; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5140Qfo025708; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:00:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@madman.nectar.cc) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5140Nxn025707; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:00:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 23:00:23 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: the X Window System / X Windows (was Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc) Message-ID: <20020601040022.GA25651@madman.nectar.cc> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CF78D95.C96C85D1@nospam.nospam.net> <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <004201c208b6$95081480$93ec910c@daleco> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:19:37AM -0500, Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > So, Jacques accidentally touched the "s" key, is it really > worth complaining about? Some people actually prefer to use the term ``X Windows'' just to annoy pedants. I'm not one of them, though. :-) I actually prefer ``the X Window System'' in text, but tend to verbalize that as ``X Windows'' -- I guess that is how it got there. Follow-ups to freebsd-chat, which I don't read. Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 31 21: 3:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0C337B400; Fri, 31 May 2002 21:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (madman.nectar.cc [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589C010; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:03:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5143kfo025729; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:03:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@madman.nectar.cc) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5143jVW025728; Fri, 31 May 2002 23:03:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 23:03:45 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Nils Holland Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc Message-ID: <20020601040345.GB25651@madman.nectar.cc> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Nils Holland References: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 05:58:01PM +0200, Well Educated wrote: > P.S. your reaction casted me to remember the following text :-)) > > Five year phase-in plan for "EuroEnglish" > > The European Commission have just announced an agreement whereby > English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which > was the other possibility. [...] This appears to me to be an adaptation of a Mark Twain essay ... I don't have it handy to check my memory. Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 4:55:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B37437B401 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 04:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 3DA345307; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 13:55:44 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Nils Holland Subject: Re: typo in FreeBSD-SA-02:27.rc References: <3CF79D89.6A5FF823@nospam.nospam.net> <20020601040345.GB25651@madman.nectar.cc> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Jun 2002 13:55:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020601040345.GB25651@madman.nectar.cc> Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 05:58:01PM +0200, Well Educated wrote: > > P.S. your reaction casted me to remember the following text :-)) > > > > Five year phase-in plan for "EuroEnglish" > > > > The European Commission have just announced an agreement whereby > > English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which > > was the other possibility. > [...] > > This appears to me to be an adaptation of a Mark Twain essay ... I > don't have it handy to check my memory. It's in src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 5:20:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excite.com (ns1.global-garage.com [210.232.86.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8059D37B407; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 05:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m10.grp.snv.yahui.com ([131.169.99.179]) by rly-xl04.mx.aolmd.com with SMTP; Sat, 01 Jun 0102 01:20:52 +0300 Received: from unknown (118.152.108.181) by smtp-server1.cflrr.com with smtp; Sat, 01 Jun 0102 04:12:10 +0800 Reply-To: "Office" Message-ID: <010e12d16c8e$2868c4b4$1bc85de3@twoywg> From: "Office" To: Cc: Subject: Three different HGH products are? 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DQoNCjxwPjxicj4NCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91PC9wPg0KDQo8L2JvZHk+DQoNCjwv aHRtbD4NCg0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0K IA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0K IA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0KIA0K IA0KIA0KIA0KDQotLQ0KDQowOTU5SXl6dTUtNDIxWGdVZTQyMjFxWGNHNy05 NDRVYUdPMjcwN25iU2k4LTkxMnpmcnQ1OTQwd3pOdzQtNzcydVpJYTg5bDY2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 6:14:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E72337B403 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 06:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EB5103FC6D; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 15:14:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 15:14:50 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: TAD (technology attachment disorder) Message-ID: <20020601151450.A8658@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020531224324.01a451e0@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020531224324.01a451e0@threespace.com>; from chipper@threespace.com on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:44:45PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:44:45PM -0500, Chip Morton wrote: Hi, > See, this is what I've been saying is wrong with you people all along... >=20 > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/05/27/020527opestrat.xml?0531= frpm Heh, nice paper, although it seems a bit extreme to me, I think most people just "Use the right tool for the job (TM)". Things are not that bad nowdays, also, most interoperability problems with Microsoft file formats and OSs are solved. As for myself, I won't write an article in vi[m], but not in Word either, I've found myself very comfortable using Lyx and, sometimes, StarOffice. On the anecdote side, my first half-time job some years ago was on tech support of a well known 3D program. I already knew Unix at the time, but didn't know anything about NT, which took me very little time to learn. The guy who interviewed me considered it more important that I already knew Unix than the fact that I didn't know Windows. I've never worked with Windows boxen again since I've left that job, and haven't used it for years, actually, but I agree that knowledge is power, even when you can get MCSEs for a dime a dozen :) When you look at someone with a unix background using Windows and then look at another person who learned about computers with Win, you see they tend to things pretty different, most of the Unix people have cygwin or u/win installed for when you miss a decent commandline :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8+MjKnLctrNyFFPERAqXZAKCBCXVXWTertWNynzRqjckERJuJEACfYPi0 AgDjOkymBC3C5YhOJdq+jbQ= =iwzm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 6:53:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7582937B406 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 040071737 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 09:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CF8D15D.80ED418F@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:51:26 -0700 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: TAD (technology attachment disorder) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020531224324.01a451e0@threespace.com> <20020601151450.A8658@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@freebsd.org X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > > When you look at someone with a unix background using Windows and then > look at another person who learned about computers with Win, you see > they tend to things pretty different, most of the Unix people have > cygwin or u/win installed for when you miss a decent commandline :) > > Cheers, > -- Thats true about Cygwin. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I could compile Fortran programs on Windows without buying Lehey Fortran. And they ran reasonably fast on a 1.8Ghz P4. I was doing an 8000 segment antenna simulation. Took about an hour with 500Mb peak memory usage. Plus Cygwin now has Windowmaker, so I feel right at home. Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 1 22:42: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep7.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45D037B403 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsdbox.tk (d57-117-31.home.cgocable.net [24.57.117.31]) by fep7.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B718C3870; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 01:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Weird Problem with FreeBSD Server/Workstation From: Muhannad Asfour To: chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-ggkWFCdCrRDyy87Gs6pD" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 02 Jun 2002 01:41:55 -0400 Message-Id: <1022996515.31146.5.camel@bsdbox.tk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-ggkWFCdCrRDyy87Gs6pD Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know this might belong in a different list....but I've searched and asked everywhere, and I can't seem to figure this problem out: I setup a brand new machine (webserver) with FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE and it's a headless box now. When I try to ssh to it or even ftp from my FreeBSD workstation, it doesn't go past me entering the username/password, then the ssh session just freezes. The machine is still on and everything and it didn't reboot or freeze, this only happens in FreeBSD. When I had NetBSD/OpenBSD on that box, it worked fine. I had this occur to me with an older machine and I thought the hardware might have been flaky, so I bought a new machine and the same problem still occurs. Also, I've tried several different NICs and have had the same problem. This problem occurs with any service running on the machine (ftp, ssh, http, telnet, etc.). I've tried searching through mailing list postings ( http://groups.google.com ) and asking in many different FreeBSD-related IRC channels and have had no luck. =20 Thanks --=-ggkWFCdCrRDyy87Gs6pD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA8+bAjck977FUKFQQRApaBAJ9gntP/nI0RBKkhKvou+Ob25dfJ9wCeL0Ig 9ncshiNGgWi2KZn5ITTV9O4= =AJON -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ggkWFCdCrRDyy87Gs6pD-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message