From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 11:41:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B629037B401; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C09F43E9C; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:41:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gB1JEe0A044076; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:14:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gB1JEeYo044073; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:14:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:14:40 -0500 (EST) From: Mario To: security@freebsd.org, , Cc: Mario Subject: comdb.h Message-ID: <20021201134546.F40018-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "They rm'd me!" spluttered Jim. "Even after you integrated them into your daily life?" inquired Josh. "Indeed, they did." replied Jim. "Now what will you do? Will you need AOL?" "I can't use AOL! I use FreeBSD, and FreeBSD doesn't have an AOL client." "How will you update your ports collection?" "More importantly, how will I download ports, like audio/cheesetracker?" "That is a good question." Jim knew he was boxed in a hard hole. 'Free'BSD had done it to him. He looked at his computer. There was not really much point to that; his screen was now going to be blank, until he could get a new connection to the Inter-Net'. It was not a Russian geographical area; it was his connection to the world. Now how would he read the lists? How would he read the informative mails sent by Larry Lambert? How would he get banned from IRC channels, such as #freebsd on Undernet, by fascist operators, such as eurotrash/chopra? He wouldn't. He was screwed. "Maybe you could go to the Easy Everything iCafe in Times Square?" "Hey, that's a plan. Taxi!" He paid his dollar, upon arriving. Rows of eMachines sat on tables in front of seats. He sat in one of the seats. The Web-browser, showing Easy E's homepage, which was hacked by Roumanians, was graphical. Jim did not like that. He went to Geocrawler, to catch-up on the lists. He clicked "freebsd-hacker". The browser responded: "Unacceptable site. Reason: "Hacking or hacking activities or hacking organisations." He tried to use the Undernet Java IRC applet. "Unacceptable site. Reason: Potentially malicious script/chat activities." A steward looked over his shoulder. "Excuse me, sir, you're not supposed to be there." "But why?" "Easy E doesn't support illegal sites." "IRC isn't illegal!" "Perhaps it should be." Finished that, the steward pushed the button to turn off the computer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 17:52:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F9A37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D5343E9C for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:52:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gB21rD0A087074 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:53:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gB21rDPS087071 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:53:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:53:13 -0500 (EST) From: Mario To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: comdb.h (fwd) Message-ID: <20021201205258.V87051-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:14:40 -0500 (EST) From: Mario To: security@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Cc: Mario Subject: comdb.h "They rm'd me!" spluttered Jim. "Even after you integrated them into your daily life?" inquired Josh. "Indeed, they did." replied Jim. "Now what will you do? Will you need AOL?" "I can't use AOL! I use FreeBSD, and FreeBSD doesn't have an AOL client." "How will you update your ports collection?" "More importantly, how will I download ports, like audio/cheesetracker?" "That is a good question." Jim knew he was boxed in a hard hole. 'Free'BSD had done it to him. He looked at his computer. There was not really much point to that; his screen was now going to be blank, until he could get a new connection to the Inter-Net'. It was not a Russian geographical area; it was his connection to the world. Now how would he read the lists? How would he read the informative mails sent by Larry Lambert? How would he get banned from IRC channels, such as #freebsd on Undernet, by fascist operators, such as eurotrash/chopra? He wouldn't. He was screwed. "Maybe you could go to the Easy Everything iCafe in Times Square?" "Hey, that's a plan. Taxi!" He paid his dollar, upon arriving. Rows of eMachines sat on tables in front of seats. He sat in one of the seats. The Web-browser, showing Easy E's homepage, which was hacked by Roumanians, was graphical. Jim did not like that. He went to Geocrawler, to catch-up on the lists. He clicked "freebsd-hacker". The browser responded: "Unacceptable site. Reason: "Hacking or hacking activities or hacking organisations." He tried to use the Undernet Java IRC applet. "Unacceptable site. Reason: Potentially malicious script/chat activities." A steward looked over his shoulder. "Excuse me, sir, you're not supposed to be there." "But why?" "Easy E doesn't support illegal sites." "IRC isn't illegal!" "Perhaps it should be." Finished that, the steward pushed the button to turn off the computer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 20: 3:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A38B37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC3143E9C for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:03:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014BB1005F; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D706AA98; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:03:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3DEADB90.3020206@pantherdragon.org> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 20:03:28 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kyle Martin Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <20021201004323.GD811@marvin.bsdng.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kyle Martin wrote: > On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 10:04:48PM -0800, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>skeleton is just the basic wrapper Makefile and uses the entire contents >>of the original tarball verbatim, the skeleton is the equivalent of an >>external start-up script and thus outside the scope of the original >>license, right? What if I need to include patches or replace the >>original Makefiles to get a clean build and install? Do those patches >>and replacements have to be GPL'd? I've read the GPL, and all I gained > > we do it all the time, look at any of the thousands of ported GPL applications That's lemming logic, though. I'd rather check first. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 21: 0: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE3D37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4CF43EC2 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0082.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.82] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Iiga-0000w6-00; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEAE881.B3D8990D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 20:58:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Kyle Martin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <20021201004323.GD811@marvin.bsdng.org> <3DEADB90.3020206@pantherdragon.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Kyle Martin wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 10:04:48PM -0800, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >>skeleton is just the basic wrapper Makefile and uses the entire contents > >>of the original tarball verbatim, the skeleton is the equivalent of an > >>external start-up script and thus outside the scope of the original > >>license, right? What if I need to include patches or replace the > >>original Makefiles to get a clean build and install? Do those patches > >>and replacements have to be GPL'd? I've read the GPL, and all I gained > > > > we do it all the time, look at any of the thousands of ported GPL applications > > That's lemming logic, though. I'd rather check first. The alternative is "lawyer logic". Lawyer logic is the logic of risk avoidance. When consulted, they will tell you to avoid all actions that do not have a written law or case law in the jurisdiction in which you intend to perform the action. In other words, they will tell you to pull the blanket over your head, so the things that might live under your bed can't get you. Having the laywers in charge is what killed Novell, and what's in the process of killing IBM. The real answer is that there is insufficient precedent to be able to answer your question with a 100% assurance one way or the other. On the plus side, people who GPL their code are generally socialists, and they rarely have enough money to enforce in the courts, as a result. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 3: 8:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8324537B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 03:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E7C43E88 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 03:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18IoR1-0009mI-00 for FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 9A898D3D for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:08:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id A2A7CC7E for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:08:07 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 31747225CC; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:08:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:08:08 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Wax poetic seems to be the style these days. Vogon poetry for your amusement. Message-ID: <20021202110808.GB906@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See, see the fusspot sky Marvel at its big offpink depths. Tell me, George Bush do you Wonder why the leech ignores you? Why its foobly stare makes you feel grusomesville. I can tell you, it is Worried by your stinkabulating facial growth That looks like A slunky. What's more, it knows Your spinach potting shed Smells of snot. Everything under the big fusspot sky Asks why, why do you even bother? You only charm Ingmars.-- -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 11:12:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F7E37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D188D43EB2 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <20021202191249051007t4m0e>; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:12:49 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB2JCId8003621; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gB2JBrT8003614; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 02 Dec 2002 11:11:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > You are basically asking the question "What makes A a derivative > work of B?". Basically, yes, but he's also asking, importantly, "how should I interpret the GPL's fuzzy and confusing derivative escape clauses?". The prior replay concerning risk avoidance works well here too, except when considering jurisdictions and locations of actions, remember the case of the Central American leader who is sitting in a US jail. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 14:10:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C240937B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7BE43E88 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:10:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0225.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.225] helo=mindspring.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Iym8-0005Zl-00; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:10:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEBDA15.6EE31FB4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:09:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > You are basically asking the question "What makes A a derivative > > work of B?". > > Basically, yes, but he's also asking, importantly, "how should I > interpret the GPL's fuzzy and confusing derivative escape clauses?". > > The prior replay concerning risk avoidance works well here too, except > when considering jurisdictions and locations of actions, remember the > case of the Central American leader who is sitting in a US jail. Enforcement of derivative works of Open Source code is a civil action, since the works from which they were derived is available and derivation is not prohibited. The issue is compliance with contract, not compliance with copyright. So there is no DMCA or Copyright issue here, and hence no involvement of the FBI in the investigation; it is very different than, for instance, the Skylarov trial (which starts today). The Manuel Noreiga imprisonment was predominantly over the drug trafficing through Panama, and a regime unfriendly to the U.S., after the lease on the canal was allowed to expire. His conviction was on charges of drug trafficing, racketeering, and money laundering. The issue of jurisdiction I raised was totally unrelated; my issue was the input to the standard "lawyer risk analysis equation" which would most effect the output: the existance or non-existance of binding case law. Case law is only binding on lower courts in the jurisdiction in which it was ajudicated (i.e. the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals is not bound by the decisions of the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals). Only if a decision is made by the U.S. Supreme Court, is the case law binding on all U.S. courts. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 9:55:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C2B37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D166A43E9C for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <20021203175536051007t4nre>; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:55:36 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB3Ht7d8020164; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:55:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gB3Ht1ns020161; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:55:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> <3DEBDA15.6EE31FB4@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 03 Dec 2002 09:55:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3DEBDA15.6EE31FB4@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > [...] Case law is only binding on lower courts in the > jurisdiction in which it was ajudicated (i.e. the 3rd Circuit Court > of Appeals is not bound by the decisions of the 5th Circuit Court of > Appeals). Only if a decision is made by the U.S. Supreme Court, is > the case law binding on all U.S. courts. OK, but where could it be adjudicated? The jurisdiction of US federal circuit courts apparently extend to Panama and overlap jurisdictions of other circuit courts which also extend to Panama and overlap jurisdictions of Panamanian courts. Even in the case of US state courts where contracts are first adjudicated, which state will handle an infringement case? Where the infringer did his nasty deed, or from where the licensor published the material infringed, or either? It gets worse when one considers GPL licensors from other countries than the infringer's. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 12:44:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B5637B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A22943ECF for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:44:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.140] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18JJtg-0003bm-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:44:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3DED1739.6CE2E06A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:42:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> <3DEBDA15.6EE31FB4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > [...] Case law is only binding on lower courts in the > > jurisdiction in which it was ajudicated (i.e. the 3rd Circuit Court > > of Appeals is not bound by the decisions of the 5th Circuit Court of > > Appeals). Only if a decision is made by the U.S. Supreme Court, is > > the case law binding on all U.S. courts. Realize that I am not a lawyer; on the balance, I've read all of USC, and all of several states commercial and criminal code, as of 1996, and I tend to keep up in areas that interest me, such as tort law and specifically Copyright. > OK, but where could it be adjudicated? To file and not get a summary dismissal, you have to have a cause of action in the jurisdiction in which you are filing. This means: 1) Any state in which the author of the software has a business presence. Generally, the state of original incorporation, but occasionally the state which the plaintiff feels would give them the most favorable result. 2) The state in which the cause of action occurred; this makes the defendant subject to state statutes as well. IMO, this is technically a double-jeopardy issue for criminal cases, but it's less clear in civil cases (i.e. if you rob a store and shoot someone, there are generally at least 5 charges at the state level, and then if you get off, the fed will try you for a civil rights violation, because the person you shot can no longer go to the theatre of their choice, for example, what with them being dead and all). The general "risk answer" is "your state, or the author's state", for Open Source software, since they are usually private citizens, who don't have a business presence in other state, not being corporate entities. The other issue with Open Source is that a successful project will have authors in nearly every interesting jurisdiction. A possible self-defense strategy for an Open Source project against a license violation in the preparation of a derivative work might be to have each contributin author for the infringed code (likely a subset of the community) file in every jurisdiction they have a physical presense in. This would require your appearance all over the country, and be expensive for you to defend yourself against without hiring proxies (usually lawyers) in those jurisdictions. This last is actually pretty low risk; I have yet to see a project use this strategy. Mostly this is because the projects object to commercial interests using their code, because they have a different idea of the word "use", which is better stated as "utilize" (just as their use of the word "free" is better stated as "liberated"). Such a strategy would basically be nothing more than legal harrasment; if so, you could get out of it with a judgement on proof of derivation. The general argument you seem to be aiming at, at least with the ports skeleton, is whether encapsulation is derivation. The answer to that one is "No", as I've stated previously. Realize that in terms of nuisance lawsuits, people could decide they don't like you, and file against you for "breathing their air", so not using their code doesn't mitigate your risk. 8-). > The jurisdiction of US federal > circuit courts apparently extend to Panama and overlap jurisdictions of > other circuit courts which also extend to Panama and overlap > jurisdictions of Panamanian courts. Yes, yes, we know: the U.S. legal system is a means of undeclared economic warfare, and it's being used that way more and more often. Write your congressman, or run for congress yourself. > Even in the case of US state courts > where contracts are first adjudicated, which state will handle an > infringement case? Where the infringer did his nasty deed, or from > where the licensor published the material infringed, or either? See above: the answer is "both". > It gets worse when one considers GPL licensors from other countries than > the infringer's. Not if you never plan to sell there or travel there. Selling an infringing product there is a definition local jurisdiction issue; merely creating the product is interpretational (they U.S. opened the door on that with the Skylarov arrest, and the current court case). In general, I would say that any first world country has jurisdiction over any second or third world country, and any second world country has jurisdiction over any third world country, so long as enforcement of that jurisdiction does not conflict with interests of a first world country. Third world countries have jurisdiction over squat. In general, the people there don't even own the atoms they are composed of. I expect first world countries to start licensing atoms to people, so that you can't own your own body outright, as soon as they can figure out how to put serial numbers on them and manage the accounting records. The GPL infection issue is a risk analysis issue. The answer is that, from a commercial perspective, the GPL is OK for tactical, but not strategic technology. Basically, you don't care about controlling tactical information, but you do care about controlling strategic. No matter what you do, you can't get rid of legal risk, you can only work to control and mitigate it. It's up to you how to assess the risk, and decide how much risk is accessible. I think for the specific case of the ports stuff, if we could get some GPL schmuck to claim ownership of a part related to a GPL'ed product, then that's just that much less code FreeBSD has to find some patsy to maintain, and FreeBSD would just as soon not have to maintain the issue of FreeBSD compatability, and push it off into the authors. Open Source tends to work that way: define the problem as being someone else's so you don't have to change *your* code. If this is a thing for your employer, AT&T has already done the due dilligence on FreeBSD; you could always check with your corporate lawyers on the official stance they take with respect to the various code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 17:58:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1420337B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from saturn.bsdhome.com (rdu25-2-113.nc.rr.com [24.25.2.113]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258DE43E88 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from neutrino.bsdhome.com (jupiter [192.168.220.13]) by saturn.bsdhome.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB41vPg0096608; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:57:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from neutrino.bsdhome.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by neutrino.bsdhome.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB41vKxX068525; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:57:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bsd@neutrino.bsdhome.com) Received: (from bsd@localhost) by neutrino.bsdhome.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB41vIGq068524; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:57:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:57:18 -0500 From: Brian Dean To: Paul Armstrong Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD-ROM based systems Message-ID: <20021204015718.GB98514@neutrino.bsdhome.com> References: <20021128121023.GL1069@vanilla.office.cyber.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021128121023.GL1069@vanilla.office.cyber.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:10:23PM +1100, Paul Armstrong wrote: > > I've seen a lot of conversation over the years for putting systems on CD-ROM > for various reasons. However, I've never seen anyone automate this process... /usr/ports/sysutils/cdroot -Brian -- Brian Dean bsd@FreeBSD.org bsd@bsdhome.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 18:57:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCC137B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2A943EA9 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:57:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gB42wm0A056144 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gB42wlhv056141 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:47 -0500 (EST) From: Mario To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: I propose Message-ID: <20021203215531.E55823-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I propose a new, revolutionary operating system. Rather than the typical, decentralised economies of the current systems, it would have less sit-coms, and more RPM. Basically, it would be entirely operated through HTTP. Everything would be here, and it would, unfortunetly, be based in the kernel. I was attacked by a lunch aid; she called me a communist; we call her the Cookie Monster. Indeed, this operating system would allow: 1) Rapid distribution; and 2) Excellency. I'm going to contact the ACLU. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 13:45:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A7E37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BD043EA9 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:45:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <2002120421455100300nfcqqe>; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:45:51 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB4LlOBl013290; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gB4LlE9M013287; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> <3DE9B0CC.8A368E61@mindspring.com> <3DEBDA15.6EE31FB4@mindspring.com> <3DED1739.6CE2E06A@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Dec 2002 13:47:13 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3DED1739.6CE2E06A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <35lm35xxr2.m35@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 68 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > OK, but where could it be adjudicated? > > To file and not get a summary dismissal, you have to have a cause > of action in the jurisdiction in which you are filing. This means: I'll take your word for what it means and ignore the reasons or justifications for it. (It seems to me that an infringee has a cause of action in any jurisdiction willing to adjudicate the contract; ie, it's based on the near-arbritrary policies of the adjudicators, mostly for practical reasons.) But I appreciate reading your explanation of what the policies are (in the US); I didn't know. > 1) Any state in which the author of the software has a business > presence. Generally, the state of original incorporation, > but occasionally the state which the plaintiff feels would > give them the most favorable result. I guess that's why so many people can run to Mississippi to sue companies (to take advantage of their corporation-hating juries & laws). > The other issue with Open Source is that a successful project will > have authors in nearly every interesting jurisdiction. A possible > self-defense strategy for an Open Source project against a license > violation in the preparation of a derivative work might be to have > each contributin author for the infringed code (likely a subset of > the community) file in every jurisdiction they have a physical > presense in. This would require your appearance all over the country, > and be expensive for you to defend yourself against without hiring > proxies (usually lawyers) in those jurisdictions. All but a few open source licensees could be blown away by having even a SINGLE author/licensor file suit against him in a jurisdiction more than a few hundred miles away from the licensee. A lot of people have put a lot of trust in people they don't know and put themselves at risk of being sued over ambiguous license language, and of having to pay-off the licensor (in money or software licenses) in lieu of arguing about it in a far-away legal jurisdiction. Apparently, the risk of suit is quite low and the cost of settling a case is likely to be low, but there could be cases where much is at stake and the cost likely to be high; in these cases people should be very conservative in interpreting fuzzy licenses, especially in the multi-licensor case. I'm suprised that I haven't heard of any scams based on this theme. The closest I can think of are related to trademarks; eg, the original owner of the Linux trademark or the many cases of companies bullying away peoples' Internet domains because they can't afford to defend them. Of course, the FSF has sued and been payed-off (by software licenses, at least), but they have had reasonable cases, as far as I know. > The general argument you seem to be aiming at, at least with the > ports skeleton, is whether encapsulation is derivation. The answer > to that one is "No", as I've stated previously. I wasn't aiming anywhere close to the question of what is a derivation; I was just noting that derivation was not the sole key factor. And, as you noted, parts of the skeleton (certain patches and makefiles) could be considered derivative (by the licensor, at least). Thanks for http://www.pbwt.com/Attorney/files/ravicher_1.pdf reference; it was quite interesting (and only a month old). It seems that the courts are defining derivation much more narrowly for software than for novels, which you can infringe by making a movie which is even VERY loosely based on the novel. But I need to read it again a few times. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 5:31:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4E537B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDE343E9C for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jw6a-00079J-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:31:52 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gB5DVqPe052149; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:31:52 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB5DVlwb052144; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:31:47 GMT Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:31:47 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, grog@lemis.com Subject: Daemon's Advocate article Message-ID: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Jw6a-00079J-00*b3q2S3DylAw* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BSD has long enjoyed performance and stability advantages over Linux, but as Grog remarks in the recent DA article, Linux is catching up. Are there any areas where BSD will more than likely *always* have an advantage over Linux? I know licensing is one, and with the current global economy downturn, that could become more significant in the IT sector. But other than that, what do we have that inherently holds a sustainable lead over Linux? Or will it simply always be a case of 'BSD is different, but not necessarily better?' NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 7:51:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9147637B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C932243E4A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:51:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB5FpFc09487 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:51:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gB5FpFt06284 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:51:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB5FpBp06277 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:51:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:50:47 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Mail Insanity Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think I'm going to go insane. The spammers of the world have been sending mail to (insert made up name here)@mydomain.com, causing my sendmail to respond to them with "No such user", which bounces BACK to me since they are using a fake address, which ends up in my inbox (I am postmaster). I'm getting about 1000 per day, and can't take it anymore.. Anyone found a solution for this? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 8:25:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8A537B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601B643EBE for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:25:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.226.138] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id AD7873A026E; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:23:20 -0600 Message-ID: <01ae01c29c7a$a155c090$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Eric Anderson" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> Subject: Re: Mail Insanity Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:23:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Eric Anderson" To: "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Mail Insanity > I think I'm going to go insane. > > The spammers of the world have been sending mail to (insert made up name > here)@mydomain.com, causing my sendmail to respond to them with "No such > user", which bounces BACK to me since they are using a fake address, > which ends up in my inbox (I am postmaster). I'm getting about 1000 per > day, and can't take it anymore.. > > Anyone found a solution for this? > > Eric > Define a 'catch-all' in virtusertable, point it to /dev/null. Might require you to also enter all your needed system aliases in that file, but it sounds as if it might be worth it. Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 8:31:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C456C37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D291143E9C for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:31:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB5GV4c10670; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:31:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gB5GV4q10185; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:31:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB5GUup10145; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:30:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DEF7F28.9080306@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:30:32 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Mail Insanity References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> <01ae01c29c7a$a155c090$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > From: "Eric Anderson" > To: "FreeBSD Chat" > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:50 AM > Subject: Mail Insanity > > > >>I think I'm going to go insane. >> >>The spammers of the world have been sending mail to (insert made up > name here)@mydomain.com, causing my sendmail to respond to them with "No > such user", which bounces BACK to me since they are using a fake > address, which ends up in my inbox (I am postmaster). I'm getting about > 1000 per day, and can't take it anymore.. >> >>Anyone found a solution for this? >> >>Eric >> > > Define a 'catch-all' in virtusertable, point it to /dev/null. Might > require you to also enter all your needed system aliases in that > file, but it sounds as if it might be worth it. I thought about that, but that would be a major pain, since I have a very large aliases file.. Are there any other more elegant ways to do this? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 9: 3:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0DC37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7366543E4A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18JzPO-0005XM-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:03:30 -0800 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:03:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Eric Anderson Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Mail Insanity In-Reply-To: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > The spammers of the world have been sending mail to (insert made up name > here)@mydomain.com, causing my sendmail to respond to them with "No such > user", which bounces BACK to me since they are using a fake address, > which ends up in my inbox (I am postmaster). I'm getting about 1000 per > day, and can't take it anymore.. Don't accept the mail in the first place. Your sendmail will only generate the bounce message, because it wants to be responsible when accepting the mail. If you block it at RCPT TO: time (which is before it accepts any message), then the sending mail server is still responsible. That should be the default. For example: rcpt to: bogus@rainier.reedmedia.net 550 5.1.1 bogus@rainier.reedmedia.net... User unknown Since it gives the 550, it never has a chance to receive a message (and hence it can't bounce it). Is it your mail server that bounced it? (By the way, with exim 3, you can use "receiver_verify" and with exim 4, you can use an ACL to verify the recipient.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 9:32:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D67E37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A202D43EC5 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB5HWXOR093946 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:32:33 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost) by happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB5HWSbt093945 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:32:28 GMT Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:32:28 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Mail Insanity Message-ID: <20021205173228.GA93795@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.43 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 09:50:47AM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > I think I'm going to go insane. > > The spammers of the world have been sending mail to (insert made up name > here)@mydomain.com, causing my sendmail to respond to them with "No such > user", which bounces BACK to me since they are using a fake address, > which ends up in my inbox (I am postmaster). I'm getting about 1000 per > day, and can't take it anymore.. > > Anyone found a solution for this? Hmmm... sendmail should reject messages based on the MAIL FROM: parameters if the sender address given is unresolvable. I guess that means the spammers are forging messages using valid addresses... sendmail has tcp_wrappers functionality compiled into it on FreeBSD, so how about a rule like: sendmail : PARANOID : RFC931 20 : deny in your /etc/hosts.allow ? That should cause sendmail to reject the attempted connection from any IP number with an unresolvable domain very early in the SMTP dialog. If you use FEATURE(`access_db') you can blacklist the netblocks used by the spammers, or you might find it more profitable to use something like DUL (http://mail-abuse.org/dul/ -- pay-for nowadays, bah!, or OSDUL (dialups.relays.osirusoft.com) --- plenty of DNS blocklists at http://moensted.dk/spam/) to prevent e-mails directly from netblocks used by dialups. Finally, there's FEATURE(`blacklist_recipients') that you could put into your sendmail.mc, which lets you reject messages (via the access db) based on the local addressee. The anti-spam section in /usr/share/sendmail/cf/README is well worth a read. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 9:45:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF8837B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B472443E9C for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:45:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.226.138] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id A0372D39022C; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:43:19 -0600 Message-ID: <02bb01c29c85$c0c5ff20$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Matthew Seaman" , "Eric Anderson" Cc: References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> <20021205173228.GA93795@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Subject: Re: Mail Insanity Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:42:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric... Similar to this one? Matt, it appears that RFC 931 is not gonna catch these....check out 'envelope from' It's a bit over my head.... Kevin Kinsey --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ Received: from mail2.gbronline.com [192.168.0.41] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id ADB17F91008A; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 04:42:57 -0600 Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz [66.76.92.18] by mail2.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE39630E0062; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 04:45:13 -0600 Received: from 200.171.46.76 (200-171-46-76.terra.com.br [200.171.46.76] (may be forged)) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.12.6/8.12.3) with SMTP id gB5AiQj0014526 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 04:44:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from squvacs695@acscorp.com) Message-Id: <200212051044.gB5AiQj0014526@ezekiel.daleco.biz> Received: from 152.74.145.157 ([152.74.145.157]) by hd.regsoft.net with esmtp; Dec, 05 2002 5:22:35 AM -0800 Received: from [159.218.252.32] by n7.groups.yahoo.com with SMTP; Dec, 05 2002 4:38:49 AM +1100 Received: from rly-xw01.mx.aol.com ([153.196.56.114]) by da001d2020.lax-ca.osd.concentric.net with SMTP; Dec, 05 2002 3:39:50 AM +0600 Received: from unknown (164.203.204.135) by a231242.upc-a.chello.nl with SMTP; Dec, 05 2002 2:39:42 AM +0700 From: "Sarah B. Gleit" To: MORIO.CONOLES.YDROCH@ezekiel.daleco.biz Cc: Subject: Home Based Business OpportunitieS BroadcaSting 2 Million Only $ 169.95 Sender: "Sarah B. Gleit" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:45:10 -0500 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.52f) Business X-RCPT-TO: Status: U X-UIDL: 318311245 ----------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 10: 8:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E753937B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (leary.csoft.net [63.111.22.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 059A043E9C for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lars@bearnip.com) Received: (qmail 29860 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2002 18:12:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 10.0.0.11) (63.111.27.212) by mail63.csoft.net with SMTP; 5 Dec 2002 18:12:00 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:59:36 -0700 From: Lars Duening Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.5.4 (Blindsider) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >BSD has long enjoyed performance and stability advantages over Linux, but as >Grog remarks in the recent DA article, Linux is catching up. > >Are there any areas where BSD will more than likely *always* have an >advantage over Linux? No distribution madness. Really - that was the main reason why I chose FreeBSD over Linux when it came to switching my laptop away from BeOS. -- Lars Duening; lars@bearnip.com GPG Key: http://www.bearnip.com/lars/lars-duening.gpgkey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 10:23:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F6937B61A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D45E43EA9 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6AF6F9F1B1; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:25:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:25:19 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article Message-ID: <20021205182519.GA84996@rfc822.net> References: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 01:31:47PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > BSD has long enjoyed performance and stability advantages over Linux, but as > Grog remarks in the recent DA article, Linux is catching up. > > Are there any areas where BSD will more than likely *always* have an > advantage over Linux? I know licensing is one, and with the current global > economy downturn, that could become more significant in the IT sector. But > other than that, what do we have that inherently holds a sustainable lead > over Linux? Or will it simply always be a case of 'BSD is different, but > not necessarily better?' http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4vcm60%24ifn%40sol.ctr.columbia.edu&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 11:41:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE5537B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5B843ECF for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB5JfDOR094881 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:41:13 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost) by happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB5Jf8wu094880 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:41:08 GMT Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:41:08 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail Insanity Message-ID: <20021205194108.GA94487@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> <20021205173228.GA93795@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> <02bb01c29c85$c0c5ff20$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02bb01c29c85$c0c5ff20$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.43 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:42:57AM -0600, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > Matt, it appears that RFC 931 is not gonna catch these....check out > 'envelope from' Yeah. On reflection, I think most spammers have been taught to use registered IP addresses. However... > Received: from 200.171.46.76 (200-171-46-76.terra.com.br > [200.171.46.76] (may be forged)) > by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.12.6/8.12.3) with SMTP id gB5AiQj0014526 > for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 04:44:38 -0600 (CST) > (envelope-from squvacs695@acscorp.com) 200.171.46.76 is listed in relays.osirusoft.com --- Spamassassin should give it a lot of zap points based on that... > Message-Id: <200212051044.gB5AiQj0014526@ezekiel.daleco.biz> > Received: from 152.74.145.157 ([152.74.145.157]) by hd.regsoft.net > with esmtp; Dec, 05 2002 5:22:35 AM -0800 > Received: from [159.218.252.32] by n7.groups.yahoo.com with SMTP; > Dec, 05 2002 4:38:49 AM +1100 > Received: from rly-xw01.mx.aol.com ([153.196.56.114]) by > da001d2020.lax-ca.osd.concentric.net with SMTP; Dec, 05 2002 3:39:50 > AM +0600 > Received: from unknown (164.203.204.135) by a231242.upc-a.chello.nl > with SMTP; Dec, 05 2002 2:39:42 AM +0700 Also having Received: headers below the message ID line is a pretty good indication of forged headers... Seeing as it's your ezekiel.daleco.biz server that's assigned the Message-Id:, probably none of those Received: headers mean anything. Then there's the Subject: line. Alas, there is no sure-fire way of catching every bit of spam, but this one looks like it should be a pretty easy slam-dunk for most anti-spam software. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 11:53:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A188C37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC1543EC2 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB5JqQc16795; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:52:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gB5JqQj26676; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:52:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB5JqKp26653; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:52:21 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DEFAE5D.8080908@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:51:57 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Seaman Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail Insanity References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> <20021205173228.GA93795@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> <02bb01c29c85$c0c5ff20$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> <20021205194108.GA94487@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Seaman wrote: > On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:42:57AM -0600, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > > >>Matt, it appears that RFC 931 is not gonna catch these....check out >>'envelope from' > Well, that's all well and good - but I have a mail spooler that grabs mail sent to my domain, spools and sends it to an "internal" mail server. The "outside" spooler doesn't have any clue about my users, or anything, it just uses the "smarthost" feature to forward all the incoming mail to my inside server, which then rejects it, etc, etc. Basically, I just need a function that says "if the email destination doesn't exist, trash it and move on" for my inside mail server. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 12:23: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA4537B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1FF43EC2 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:23:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 11C423A204; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:23:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:23:02 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Eric Anderson Cc: Matthew Seaman , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail Insanity Message-ID: <20021205122301.P87634@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <3DEF75D7.9040401@centtech.com> <20021205173228.GA93795@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> <02bb01c29c85$c0c5ff20$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> <20021205194108.GA94487@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> <3DEFAE5D.8080908@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3DEFAE5D.8080908@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 01:51:57PM -0600 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-PRERELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 01:51:57PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:42:57AM -0600, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > > > > > >>Matt, it appears that RFC 931 is not gonna catch these....check out > >>'envelope from' > > > > Well, that's all well and good - but I have a mail spooler that grabs > mail sent to my domain, spools and sends it to an "internal" mail > server. The "outside" spooler doesn't have any clue about my users, or > anything, it just uses the "smarthost" feature to forward all the > incoming mail to my inside server, which then rejects it, etc, etc. > > Basically, I just need a function that says "if the email destination > doesn't exist, trash it and move on" for my inside mail server. > > Eric I am in a simular position. To block most spam based on dictonary of names (over 85%) I use authd (www.authd.org). I have automatic generated from my user files a rules file to only allow the users which actual exists. And then there is one rule to block the rest. Also in use is spamassasin, to mark emails and then filter/delete on that. Here is my current stats since the last authd start: 250- |0xx: 23 2xx: 25897 4xx: 3216 5xx: 213815 9xx: 0 As you can see, I rejected over 200,000 mails, over 3,000 had DNS timeouts or simular things and I only accepted less then 26,000. So thats a reject rate close to 90%, just based on connecting IP, Mail From and Rcpt To headers. Like I don't allow to pass me email which comes from a non-yahoo mail server, but uses a Mail From @yahoo.com. And I have that list of actual email accounts, so I am blocking the dictonary attacks that way. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 19:42: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B656A37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF81E43E4A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:42:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB63frf5073379 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:41:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB63frim073378 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:41:53 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Mickey Mouse Power Plug Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:41:53 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is this a Mickey Mouse Power Plug? Has Apple been taken over by Disney? http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 4:31: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6959637B401 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 04:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E276843ECF for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 04:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from probe-1039172656-1039176484-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com) X-eGroups-Return: probe-1039172656-1039176484-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.176] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2002 12:08:04 -0000 Message-ID: Date: 06 Dec 2002 12:08:04 -0000 From: Yahoo!Groups Reply-To: confirm-unbounce-1039172656-77923465-17425@yahoogroups.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Please reactivate your Yahoo! Groups account MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, You belong to one or more email groups provided by Yahoo! Groups (uk.groups.yahoo.com). Email from these groups can be recognized by looking for a group name in the message Subject line, like [pet-owners] or [music-fans]. Recently, messages sent to you from Yahoo! Groups have been returned to us as undeliverable. To prevent any problems with your email service, we have temporarily turned your Yahoo! Groups account OFF. If you are reading this message now, the delivery problem appears to be fixed. However, we won't know that the problem is fixed until you tell us. To turn your Yahoo! Groups account ON: - Please REPLY to this message. Send that reply back to us without changing anything. OR - While connected to the Internet, click on the following Web link (or copy and paste it into your Web browser and hit the RETURN key): http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/unbounce?adj=77923465,17425&p=1039172656 Once we get a response from you, we will turn your Yahoo! Groups account back ON, and you will begin to receive messages from your groups again. After you respond, you can read any messages you might have missed while your account was off by visiting: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Thank you for using Yahoo! Groups! Yahoo! Groups Customer Care Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 11:36:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB04837B401 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from seattlefenix.net (seattlefenix.net [216.231.34.252]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CE443E4A for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:36:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benjamin@seattlefenix.net) Received: from drizzle (drizzle.seattleFenix.net [10.0.0.60]) by seattlefenix.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EBC4B23A; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:31:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> Reply-To: "Benjamin Krueger" From: "Benjamin Krueger" To: "David Kelly" , References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:36:36 -0800 Organization: Seattle Fenix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I want to like Apple. Really I do. But come on, a non-standard *power cord*? Are they really that desperate to be the only game in town you can buy a power cord from? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Kelly" To: Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 7:41 PM Subject: Mickey Mouse Power Plug > Is this a Mickey Mouse Power Plug? > Has Apple been taken over by Disney? > > http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 12: 4:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF6B37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1805143EBE for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:04:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gB6K45d02261; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:04:05 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:03:18 +0100 To: "Benjamin Krueger" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug Cc: "David Kelly" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:36 AM -0800 2002/12/06, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > I want to like Apple. Really I do. But come on, a non-standard *power cord*? > Are they really that desperate to be the only game in town you can buy a > power cord from? This looks to me like the "standard" non-standard power plug that is frequently used in laptops (Compaq laptops and & Apple laptops up until the end of the yo-yo power supply), as well as some desktop machines (again, especially Compaq). Okay, so it looks a little funny at this angle, but otherwise it doesn't really look all that unusual. My wife and I both have several power cords around here that have connectors like this. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 12: 9:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB1F37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8627F43EB2 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB6K9af5076577 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:09:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB6K9aVn076576 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:09:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:09:36 -0600 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug Message-ID: <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 11:36:36AM -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > I want to like Apple. Really I do. But come on, a non-standard *power cord*? > Are they really that desperate to be the only game in town you can buy a > power cord from? I don't believe it is nonstandard. Its just not the big fat NEMA plug most computers (and other Macintoshs) use. Just because its hard to find the little power cord used by electric shavers doesn't make it nonstandard. This appears to be a 3 conductor version of that. Then again, before Apple put USB on the first iMac, USB was "nonstandard" by many definitions. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 15: 5:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C49537B401 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2D7143EBE for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 064126 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:05:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:01:35 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not too thrilled about my Dell 8200 power cord. Looks like its just aching to get whacked off. Either that or the cat will chew it off :) Its probably some EU directive that comes into play. We wouldn't want to electrocute any Europeans with 20V. :) Rob. David Kelly wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 11:36:36AM -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > I want to like Apple. Really I do. But come on, a non-standard *power cord*? > > Are they really that desperate to be the only game in town you can buy a > > power cord from? > > I don't believe it is nonstandard. Its just not the big fat NEMA plug > most computers (and other Macintoshs) use. > > Just because its hard to find the little power cord used by electric > shavers doesn't make it nonstandard. This appears to be a 3 conductor > version of that. > > Then again, before Apple put USB on the first iMac, USB was > "nonstandard" by many definitions. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 18:25:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876AC37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD1243E4A for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B9F1005F; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:25:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10762AA98; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:25:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3DF15C23.7000503@pantherdragon.org> Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:25:39 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rob Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob wrote: > We wouldn't want to electrocute any Europeans with 20V. :) Why not? Nothing like a little electricity to light up your life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 4:29:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F070137B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1848743E4A for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A53E15374; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:29:48 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rob Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 13:29:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> (Rob's message of "Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:01:35 -0800") Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob writes: > I'm not too thrilled about my Dell 8200 power cord. Looks like its just > aching to get whacked off. Either that or the cat will chew it off :) > Its probably some EU directive that comes into play. We wouldn't want > to electrocute any Europeans with 20V. :) Umm, no. If the iPod uses an external PSU, then there's a very good reason for using a non-standard power plug: to prevent unaware users from plugging in a mains cord, which would not only fry the iPod but might also electrocute the user. If you think that's silly, just ask anyone who's ever plugged an ISDN cable (RJ45, 48V) into an Ethernet port (RJ45, ~3V). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 4:52:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0595D37B404 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 04:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1D143E4A for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 04:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18KeRW-0006zP-00 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:52:26 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 8B058F01 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:52:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id AC416BFC for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:52:15 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id E2D7C225CC; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:52:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:52:15 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug Message-ID: <20021207125215.GA1973@raggedclown.net> References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 01:29:48PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Rob writes: > > I'm not too thrilled about my Dell 8200 power cord. Looks like its just > > aching to get whacked off. Either that or the cat will chew it off :) > > Its probably some EU directive that comes into play. We wouldn't want > > to electrocute any Europeans with 20V. :) > > Umm, no. If the iPod uses an external PSU, then there's a very good > reason for using a non-standard power plug: to prevent unaware users > from plugging in a mains cord, which would not only fry the iPod but > might also electrocute the user. If you think that's silly, just ask > anyone who's ever plugged an ISDN cable (RJ45, 48V) into an Ethernet > port (RJ45, ~3V). > We are getting into "people who dry their wet cats in the microwave oven" territory here ... I did actually see an engineer who was so busy talking to me while repairing a monitor that he had just disassembled, that he unthinkingly touched the tube after it had just been turned off. He flew through the air with greatest of ease ... -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 6:56:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD0737B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 06:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from porfidio.atstake.com (porfidio.atstake.com [63.168.6.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E312143E4A for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 06:56:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@atstake.com) Message-ID: <3DF20BC8.4070403@atstake.com> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 15:55:04 +0100 From: Jan Muenther User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021024 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hehe, > Umm, no. If the iPod uses an external PSU, then there's a very good > reason for using a non-standard power plug: to prevent unaware users > from plugging in a mains cord, which would not only fry the iPod but > might also electrocute the user. If you think that's silly, just ask > anyone who's ever plugged an ISDN cable (RJ45, 48V) into an Ethernet > port (RJ45, ~3V). that really reminds me of my first full time IT job which also included some user support - someone called me and *yelled* at me their printer wasn't working. When I arrived at their office, I found out they unplugged the print server ('I thought we didn't need that') and plugged the PSU into one of their mobile phones to charge it... needless to say, this was the marketing department :P Unfortunately, it *worked*, the phone even charged... it would have been so much more educative if it just fried to a plastic blob :/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 8:21:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FEC37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7157943EB2 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:21:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 02989; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:21:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3DF21F14.3B4DB370@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:17:24 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <014e01c29d5e$ca9404a0$3c00000a@drizzle> <20021206200936.GA76500@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> <20021207125215.GA1973@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Power cords are a symptom of societies ills. "Lets protect everyone from their own stupidity" And who will do this protection? The Office of Homeland Safety and Security. They need those cords plugged in so they can tap our emails and FreeBSD-chat posts. Oops, I'm going into hiding now. Rob. Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 01:29:48PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Rob writes: > > > I'm not too thrilled about my Dell 8200 power cord. Looks like its just > > > aching to get whacked off. Either that or the cat will chew it off :) > > > Its probably some EU directive that comes into play. We wouldn't want > > > to electrocute any Europeans with 20V. :) > > > > Umm, no. If the iPod uses an external PSU, then there's a very good > > reason for using a non-standard power plug: to prevent unaware users > > from plugging in a mains cord, which would not only fry the iPod but > > might also electrocute the user. If you think that's silly, just ask > > anyone who's ever plugged an ISDN cable (RJ45, 48V) into an Ethernet > > port (RJ45, ~3V). > > > We are getting into "people who dry their wet cats in the microwave > oven" territory here ... > > I did actually see an engineer who was so busy talking to me while > repairing a monitor that he had just disassembled, that he unthinkingly > touched the tube after it had just been turned off. > > He flew through the air with greatest of ease ... > > -- > Regards > Cliff Sarginson > The Netherlands > > [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 9:34: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A59937B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432EB43E4A for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18Kiq1-000HP9-00 for FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 17:34:01 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 73D7CF01 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:34:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id BF86ABFC for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:33:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 394DF225CE; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:33:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:33:51 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Calling people names Message-ID: <20021207173351.GA584@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mmmm..in relationship to a recent thread here..if I were to call someone (a very well-known public figure -- none of you lot though) a money-crazy nutcase, whose business was saved by the skin of it's teeth due to an agreement with a well-known software company, could I be sued ? Or is that "fair-comment" ? -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 10: 0: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086AE37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 10:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F75443EBE for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 10:00:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 074739; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:00:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3DF235DA.BE29D5@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 09:54:34 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Calling people names References: <20021207173351.GA584@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Mmmm..in relationship to a recent thread here..if I were to call someone > (a very well-known public figure -- none of you lot though) a money-crazy > nutcase, whose business was saved by the skin of it's teeth due to > an agreement with a well-known software company, could I be sued ? > > Or is that "fair-comment" ? > > -- > Regards > Cliff Sarginson > The Netherlands > > [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Bill Gates???? -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 12:38:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FB337B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DAB443EBE for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB7Kchf5082799 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:38:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB7Kcggs082798 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:38:42 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse Power Plug Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:38:42 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200212052141.53270.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <3DF12C4E.7A941515@pythonemproject.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200212071438.42701.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 07 December 2002 06:29 am, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Umm, no. If the iPod uses an external PSU, then there's a very good > reason for using a non-standard power plug: to prevent unaware users > from plugging in a mains cord, which would not only fry the iPod but > might also electrocute the user. If you think that's silly, just ask > anyone who's ever plugged an ISDN cable (RJ45, 48V) into an Ethernet > port (RJ45, ~3V). How did the iPod come into this? The URL showed the backside of a 17" iMac. The Mickey Mouse Power Plug is for 90-270 volts AC with similarly wide frequency range. As others have mentioned is apparently the same as the AC power cord for the power supply yo-yo used on titanium Powerbooks. The iPod uses 6 conductor Firewire for both power and data. The iPod power supply AC adapter also has a Firewire connector. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 14:12:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECCF37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A2B43ED8 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:12:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18KnBY-0001Fe-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:12:32 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 84D3EF01 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:12:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id A8E88C98 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:12:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id D1D32225CC; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:12:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:12:21 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Calling people names Message-ID: <20021207221221.GB373@raggedclown.net> References: <20021207173351.GA584@raggedclown.net> <3DF235DA.BE29D5@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DF235DA.BE29D5@pythonemproject.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 09:54:34AM -0800, Rob wrote: > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > > Mmmm..in relationship to a recent thread here..if I were to call someone > > (a very well-known public figure -- none of you lot though) a money-crazy > > nutcase, whose business was saved by the skin of it's teeth due to > > an agreement with a well-known software company, could I be sued ? > > > > Or is that "fair-comment" ? > > > > -- > > Regards > > Cliff Sarginson > > The Netherlands > > > > [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > Bill Gates???? > No, not Billy Boy... I will give you a clue, it has a relationship by name to an unrelated enterprise once owned by the Beatles :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 14:39:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD44537B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FEA43EB2 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB7MdSf5092124 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:39:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB7MdRQC092081 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:39:27 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: David Kelly To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Calling people names Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:39:27 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20021207173351.GA584@raggedclown.net> <3DF235DA.BE29D5@pythonemproject.com> <20021207221221.GB373@raggedclown.net> In-Reply-To: <20021207221221.GB373@raggedclown.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200212071639.27225.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 07 December 2002 04:12 pm, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > No, not Billy Boy... > I will give you a clue, it has a relationship by name to an unrelated > enterprise once owned by the Beatles :) Its Apple Computer. Link to Beatles is via their Apple recording label. I don't believe Apple was "saved" by a mere $150 million investment by Microsoft. Apple keeps a lot more cash on hand than that. The MS investment bought Apple stock for cheap. Most importantly it said to the industry and Wall Street that MS took Apple seriously. Clearly it was cheaper for MS to invest in Apple than to innovate for themselves. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 15:13:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C1E37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 049E843E4A for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 9390 invoked by uid 417); 7 Dec 2002 23:13:26 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 7 Dec 2002 23:13:26 -0000 Received: from localhost ([216.194.7.155]) by softhome.net with esmtp; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:10:29 -0700 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1040B7DB; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:07:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:07:41 -0500 From: Joshua Lee To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article Message-ID: <20021206200741.GA23643@softhome.net> References: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 01:31:47PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > BSD has long enjoyed performance and stability advantages over Linux, but as > Grog remarks in the recent DA article, Linux is catching up. > > Are there any areas where BSD will more than likely *always* have an > advantage over Linux? I know licensing is one, and with the current global Ease of administration and use by someone literate in Unix, everything just makes sense. CVSUping the kernel, ports tree, docs, and userland is something also unlikely to enter the Linux world completely because there is an artificial barrier between the kernel and userland. That is, if the Linux kernel, or anything else in Linux, ever gets a useful and unencumbered revision control system in the first place. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 16:51: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF5F37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B2543E4A for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5638E5191F; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:58:14 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:58:14 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD's edge over Linux (was: Daemon's Advocate article) Message-ID: <20021208002814.GA96646@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021205133147.GB52021@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 5 December 2002 at 13:31:47 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > BSD has long enjoyed performance and stability advantages over Linux, but as > Grog remarks in the recent DA article, Linux is catching up. > > Are there any areas where BSD will more than likely *always* have an > advantage over Linux? I know licensing is one, and with the current global > economy downturn, that could become more significant in the IT sector. But > other than that, what do we have that inherently holds a sustainable lead > over Linux? Or will it simply always be a case of 'BSD is different, but > not necessarily better?' Always is a long time. There's nothing that BSD has that Linux couldn't get if it really wanted. The least likely change would be for Linux to change to a BSD license. Everything else could change. The Linux kernel is still far less mature than the BSD kernel, which gives it the flexibility to change for the better. We've seen multiple borrowings from BSD; that could continue. I'd prefer to look at it from the perspective of the distant future. What will operating systems look like in 10 years time? In 20? 20 years ago, 4.2BSD was released. 10 years ago we saw the first free BSD operating systems. There's a good chance that BSD and Linux will still be around in 20 years, but what will they look like? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message