From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 6:23:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA9237B400; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g2OEMmk72830; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:22:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:22:47 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Terry Lambert Cc: Willie Viljoen , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller In-Reply-To: <3C9D64EA.BBE84A89@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Disable write caching on the drives. THis is a FAQ. > > > > Hmm. I thought the wc bit should only affect this sort of scenario in the > > event that the system was actually powered off; otherwise, the hard disk > > can still flush to disk gradually as it. From the description, it seems > > the system panics, but power is never removed from the drives. That said, > > I wouldn't be surprised if the problem goes away on the basis that this > > will substantially change system behavior for performance reasons, hiding > > whatever subtle bug it is :-). > > The drive lies about commiting data to stable storage. This blows away > all the hard work soft updates does trying to ensure ordering. Yes, but that failure is only exposed to the operating system if the drive fails to actually write the data, which to my understanding, occurs only when there is a power loss to the drive. Otherwise, that inconsistency is never exposed because the drive guarantees that the data eventually makes it to the disk, and the version of the data exposed to the operating system is consistent with the operating system's expectations. In the submitted scenario, it sounded like there had been a panic and a reboot, but that the power had never been shut down to the drive. In that scenario, I would expect that the drive would present a consistent view to the OS on start-up, suggesting that the software failure involved in the panic might have been involved in generating the inconsistencies, or that there is a softupdates bug (the suggestion of the submitter). I.e., I don't think write caching is involved in this particular instance. I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-) Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 6:32:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from prometheus.vh.laserfence.net (prometheus.laserfence.net [196.44.73.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEF637B41A; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.vh.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10]) by prometheus.vh.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16p92C-00004e-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:31:48 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:31:48 +0200 (SAST) From: Willie Viljoen X-X-Sender: will@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net To: Robert Watson Cc: Terry Lambert , , Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020324162943.L307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well yes, there was a panic and reboot without power loss... the system first starts exhiting odd behavour, one of the error messages I've seen is similar to free inode /usr/197492 had 28 blocks After a while, the kernel panics and attempts to sync disks, and usually gives up on several buffers. This isn't normal, I think, but the problem seems to dissapear when I turn off write caching. Once I have the time (and some extra cash) to experiment, I might try a few different IDE controllers and see if the problem occurs with all of them. I know the drive is fine, since I have several of the same model drives on other machines which do not exhibit this behavour, but which run at ATA-66 because they all have oldish controllers. Will On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Robert Watson wrote: > > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Disable write caching on the drives. THis is a FAQ. > > > > > > Hmm. I thought the wc bit should only affect this sort of scenario in the > > > event that the system was actually powered off; otherwise, the hard disk > > > can still flush to disk gradually as it. From the description, it seems > > > the system panics, but power is never removed from the drives. That said, > > > I wouldn't be surprised if the problem goes away on the basis that this > > > will substantially change system behavior for performance reasons, hiding > > > whatever subtle bug it is :-). > > > > The drive lies about commiting data to stable storage. This blows away > > all the hard work soft updates does trying to ensure ordering. > > Yes, but that failure is only exposed to the operating system if the drive > fails to actually write the data, which to my understanding, occurs only > when there is a power loss to the drive. Otherwise, that inconsistency is > never exposed because the drive guarantees that the data eventually makes > it to the disk, and the version of the data exposed to the operating > system is consistent with the operating system's expectations. In the > submitted scenario, it sounded like there had been a panic and a reboot, > but that the power had never been shut down to the drive. In that > scenario, I would expect that the drive would present a consistent view to > the OS on start-up, suggesting that the software failure involved in the > panic might have been involved in generating the inconsistencies, or that > there is a softupdates bug (the suggestion of the submitter). I.e., I > don't think write caching is involved in this particular instance. > > I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-) > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project > robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message > > > -- Willie Viljoen Private IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36 +27 82 404 03 27 will@laserfence.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 7: 4: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4231337B404; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 07:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18800; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:03:54 +1100 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:04:17 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: To: Robert Watson Cc: John Hanley , Willie Viljoen , , Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020325020322.F45829-100000@gamplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Robert Watson wrote: > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, John Hanley wrote: > > > > turn off write caching at boot time in > > > /boot/loader.conf by adding the line hw.ata.wc=0 > > > > Surely a default install should result in write caching disabled, right? > > Since any new filesystems will default to using soft update. > > We turned it off by default in 4.4-RELEASE, I believe, and got utterly > pounded in the benchmarks, magazine reviews, etc, and turned it back on > for later RELENG_4 releases. On 5.0-CURRENT, it's off again by default > due to the assumptions concerning background fsck, which is on by default. > At some point, we need to have that whole discussion again. Basically, Nah, it goes on and off from time to time without even its maintainer knowing how :-). RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/ata-disk.c,v Working file: ata-disk.c head: 1.128 PRE_NEWBUS: 1.6 keyword substitution: kv total revisions: 148; selected revisions: 148 description: ---------------------------- revision 1.125 date: 2002/03/05 09:24:19; author: sos; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 Misc little cleanups: Link if only ATAPI device in kernel config Remove unused #includes Rearrange a bit in ata-raid to make diff against -stable smaller Enable wc as default again, dunne how this happend... ---------------------------- Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 9:24:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3252A37B41A for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 79496 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Mar 2002 17:24:36 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:24:36 +0100 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller Message-ID: <20020324182436.B79192@mail.webmonster.de> Mail-Followup-To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , Robert Watson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org References: <3C9D64EA.BBE84A89@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@freebsd.org on Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:22:47AM -0500 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 X-URL: http://www.webmonster.de/ X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer X-Work-URL: http://www.ngenn.net/ X-Work-Address: nGENn GmbH, Schloss Kransberg, D-61250 Usingen-Kransberg, Germany X-Work-Phone: +49-6081-682-304 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Watson(rwatson@freebsd.org)@2002.03.24 09:22:47 +0000: > I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-) i hope, this is not meant seriously. an ups keeps your system running in case of mains power outage, true. it does not help anything in the following (common) scenarios: - the power supply blows - bad power cable - neutron bombs ;-) honestly, judging from the quality of hardware you get in .de the first two things happen more often than a real power outage, so i'd say an ups is no viable solution when enabling ata wc. it may give you a warm fuzzy feeling, but that's about it :-) just my EUR 0.02, in case something makes it a FAQ to go into the handbook... /k --=20 > Markets are self-correcting. That's why I trust markets more than > governments. Governments usually aren't self-correcting, until too late.= =20 > --Interview with Walter Wriston as reported in Wired 4.10=20 KR433/KR11-RIPE -- WebMonster Community Founder -- nGENn GmbH Senior Techie http://www.webmonster.de/ -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de/ -- http://www.ngenn.n= et/ GnuPG 0x2964BF46 2001-03-15 42F9 9FFF 50D4 2F38 DBEE DF22 3340 4F4E 2964 B= F46 My mail is GnuPG signed -- Unsigned ones are bogus -- http://www.gnupg.org/ Please do not remove my address from To: and Cc: fields in mailing lists. 1= 0x --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8ngvUM0BPTilkv0YRAsY4AJ4h6Hk/oPo3x/OzPnI9tBLiZ1K2EwCeMBhN bendgRNcfwnJ3o4kUIAIkKo= =L7b9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 9:36:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E753837B419; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g2OHaEk76910; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:36:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:36:13 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller In-Reply-To: <20020324182436.B79192@mail.webmonster.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Karsten W. Rohrbach wrote: > Robert Watson(rwatson@freebsd.org)@2002.03.24 09:22:47 +0000: > > > I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-) > > i hope, this is not meant seriously. an ups keeps your system running in > case of mains power outage, true. it does not help anything in the > following (common) scenarios: > - the power supply blows > - bad power cable > - neutron bombs ;-) > > honestly, judging from the quality of hardware you get in .de the first > two things happen more often than a real power outage, so i'd say an ups > is no viable solution when enabling ata wc. it may give you a warm fuzzy > feeling, but that's about it :-) > > just my EUR 0.02, in case something makes it a FAQ to go into the > handbook... In my area, power grid failure is a real problem, far more likely than power supply failure, unfortunately. Obviously, in the end, it's a tradeoff regarding performance and reliability. If you want real reliability, you have to buy hardware that actually behaves the way the software expects. I don't think anyone would be surprised if a future generation of IDE disks ignored the 'write cache disable' setting to gain performance. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 9:39:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from prometheus.vh.laserfence.net (prometheus.laserfence.net [196.44.73.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628C837B404; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.vh.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10]) by prometheus.vh.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16pBxQ-0000As-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:39:04 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:39:03 +0200 (SAST) From: Willie Viljoen X-X-Sender: will@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net To: Robert Watson Cc: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , , Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020324193812.Q307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert, I wouldn't be in the least surprised, but let's all hope they don't go that way, for people who don't want to dish out the cash to buy the most stable (and expensive) hardware, it would be the end of reliability. On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Karsten W. Rohrbach wrote: > > > Robert Watson(rwatson@freebsd.org)@2002.03.24 09:22:47 +0000: > > > > > I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-) > > > > i hope, this is not meant seriously. an ups keeps your system running in > > case of mains power outage, true. it does not help anything in the > > following (common) scenarios: > > - the power supply blows > > - bad power cable > > - neutron bombs ;-) > > > > honestly, judging from the quality of hardware you get in .de the first > > two things happen more often than a real power outage, so i'd say an ups > > is no viable solution when enabling ata wc. it may give you a warm fuzzy > > feeling, but that's about it :-) > > > > just my EUR 0.02, in case something makes it a FAQ to go into the > > handbook... > > In my area, power grid failure is a real problem, far more likely than > power supply failure, unfortunately. Obviously, in the end, it's a > tradeoff regarding performance and reliability. If you want real > reliability, you have to buy hardware that actually behaves the way the > software expects. I don't think anyone would be surprised if a future > generation of IDE disks ignored the 'write cache disable' setting to gain > performance. > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project > robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message > > > -- Willie Viljoen Private IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36 +27 82 404 03 27 will@laserfence.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 9:41:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17F5737B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14945 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2002 17:41:50 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 2002 17:41:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9E1D6E.3080604@namesys.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:39:42 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020317225759.82774.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> <3C95ACBA.4040108@namesys.com> <3C95B838.F8ECE39A@mindspring.com> <3C95C8C3.7080803@namesys.com> <3C966CDF.25A7A379@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >Hans Reiser wrote: > >>>>You can port it for free if you port it to a GPL'd OS (or port the OS to >>>>the GPL). >>>> >>>Or you can port it and then use it on any OS you want, so long >>>as you are an end user, and not a company who sells OSs, so >>>long as you don't redistribute the result... the GPL doesn't >>>kick in until you attempt to exercise distribution rights. >>> >>This is often said, but not what the license language says. I think it >>is wishful thinking. If you distribute, you must make it public. That >>includes FAPSI, NSA, anyone. >> > >Precisely. So you can port it, and the result of the port >is still GPL'ed. At that point, you can treat it like any >other GPL'ed code that the original vendor had ported. > >You do the port, buy you don't distribute it, so you are not >required to make sources available. You merely use the port >internally. > >Alternately, you do the port, you distribute it, but you do > distribute means what? > >not distribute it linked against your proprietary code. You >make the end user do the linking, if they want to use it. By > There is absolutely nothing in the license that makes derivative specific to linking issues. > >optioning it, you are off the hook for making your proprietary >source code available, but the end user is not. Since the >end user never had your source code, the end user can not >distribute the combined code further. > No, you have made a derivative work. That you linked it only through a surrogate means nothing. Consider what will happen as we move to NUMA/cluster/distributed computing architectures. Linking will become less and less meaningful, because programs will be composed into wholes much as functions are composed into wholes currently. This is perhaps why the GPL doesn't say that if it isn't linked, it is okay. I think it is a real problem that people can't easily get a good authoritative definition of what is and is not a derivative work when they need to make their decisions. Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 9:42:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A28F37B449 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18564 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2002 17:42:26 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 2002 17:42:26 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9E1D92.9040608@namesys.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:40:18 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020318195817.26106.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <3C967EE4.5E60D36@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >Hiten Pandya wrote: > > > >There are heroic technical measures you could take to get >around these restrictions (BeOS links GPL'ed code into GPL >external handler programs, and then talks to them via IPC >to get around the GPL on come code, for instance), but the >effort of doing that is probably more than simply writing >a drop-in replacement from scratch, which is more than just >licensing the code. > I think that BeOS violates the GPL. Linking is not in the license language. Derivative is. Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 9:43:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FC1537B433 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19722 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2002 17:42:45 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 24 Mar 2002 17:42:45 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:40:36 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >Hiten Pandya wrote: > >>I don't understand one thing though, what are we doing in the case of >>Ext2FS, which is supported in FreeBSD. As far as I know, the Ext2FS >>version of FreeBSD has also got some GPL'ed bits? The Ext2FS is >>supplied as a source filesystem on FreeBSD CD-ROMs and people are >>allowed to sell them... >> > >It's supplied as source code only, not compiled into the kernel >byt the FreeBSD project, and therefore not impacting the FreeBSD >license. See /usr/src/sys/gnu/ext2fs/COPYRIGHT.INFO: > >| Most of the files in this directory are written by Godmar Back or modified >| by him using the CSRG sources. Those files are covered by the Berkeley-style >| copyright. However the following files are covered by GPL. Since the policy >| of the FreeBSD project is to keep the files with the more restrictive >| copyright in the gnu tree and it is a good idea to keep the filesystem code >| all together, the EXT2FS in its entirety resides under the gnu tree. Note >| that only the files below are under the GPL. In the eventuality that these >| files are redesigned or rewritten, this tree can be moved back into the less >| restrictive FreeBSD tree. > > >>Wouldn't this be the same thing in the case of a GPL'ed ReiserFS, >>XFS or any other GPL'ed filesystem or code? >> > >Yes. > >It can not be distributed compiled into a kernel distributed >on CDROM, legally, because of the license conflict, but it >can be used in an after-market fashion by an end user. > >What that basically means is that you have to install it on >another FS type without that restriction before you are >able to use the ReiserFS, XFS, OpenGFS, or your own JFS >port-in-progress. > >Since doing this is an incredible pain, and the benefits >you get from doing it are most often not worth the pain, >most people don't do it. > >Also, since it's not on the CDROM, it's unlikely to ever >become the default root FS, in any case. Even if you >wanted to locally roll your own CDROM for this, you >would have to modify the boot loader code to be able >to read XFS or whatever FS's in order to load the third >stage boot loader, kernel, and kernel modules, etc.. >That's basically a read-write port *plus* a read-only >port of the code, which makes it about 1.75 times as much >work as just doing the kernel port (it used to be only >about 1.5 times, but now the boot code has to be able to >get files out of subdirectories because of the reorganized >kernel and module code). > >-- Terry > > I think you guys are violating the GPL on ext2fs (assuming you are correct that the UCB 4 part license violates the GPL --- I haven't read that license). Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 15: 0:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BF637B404; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org ([12.232.206.8]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020324230018.NSEZ1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@InterJet.elischer.org>; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:00:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA32942; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:53:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200203242253.OAA32942@InterJet.elischer.org> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:53:10 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Hans Reiser Cc: Terry Lambert , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org updates In-Reply-To: <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Hans Reiser wrote: > > > I think you guys are violating the GPL on ext2fs (assuming you are > correct that the UCB 4 part license violates the GPL --- I haven't read > that license). > > Hans A lot of the BSD ext2fs implementation is just the BSD code changed to hold ext2fs structures since the on disk layout is quite similar in a logical sense. So it's BSD code and not derived from the Linux code. I think the .h files may have soem Linux history > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 15:49: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C50C37B404; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0344.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.89] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pHjH-0003hn-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:48:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9E65CE.5278B5C6@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:48:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson Cc: Willie Viljoen , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson wrote: > > The drive lies about commiting data to stable storage. This blows away > > all the hard work soft updates does trying to ensure ordering. > > Yes, but that failure is only exposed to the operating system if the drive > fails to actually write the data, which to my understanding, occurs only > when there is a power loss to the drive. It depends on when the lie is perpetrated by the hardware. > I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 16:15:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2050F37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0344.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.89] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pI8Y-0000kM-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:14:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9E6BEC.B2EB8D86@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:14:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Reiser Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020317225759.82774.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> <3C95ACBA.4040108@namesys.com> <3C95B838.F8ECE39A@mindspring.com> <3C95C8C3.7080803@namesys.com> <3C966CDF.25A7A379@mindspring.com> <3C9E1D6E.3080604@namesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hans Reiser wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >Precisely. So you can port it, and the result of the port > >is still GPL'ed. At that point, you can treat it like any > >other GPL'ed code that the original vendor had ported. > > > >You do the port, buy you don't distribute it, so you are not > >required to make sources available. You merely use the port > >internally. > > > >Alternately, you do the port, you distribute it, but you do > > distribute means what? "to give out or deliver especially to members of a group " If you never do this, then the clauses which require source to be given out are never invoked. > >not distribute it linked against your proprietary code. You > >make the end user do the linking, if they want to use it. By > > There is absolutely nothing in the license that makes derivative > specific to linking issues. It's not an issue of derivation. It's an issue of linking. It's put in plain English in the last paragraph: This General Public License does not permit incorporating your program into proprietary programs. If your program is a subroutine library, you may consider it more useful to permit linking proprietary applications with the library. If this is what you want to do, use the GNU Library General Public License instead of this License. If I link A + B -> C, then C is a derivative work of A and C is a derivative work of B. If you look at clause 2(b), you'll see: You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. The "in whole or in part contains" is the kicker for linking. > >optioning it, you are off the hook for making your proprietary > >source code available, but the end user is not. Since the > >end user never had your source code, the end user can not > >distribute the combined code further. > > No, you have made a derivative work. That you linked it only through a > surrogate means nothing. The user is not a surrogate. If you had written a program, and that did the linkage, then the program would be a surrogate. By leaving it as an exercise for the user, you are in the same position as an distillery or gun or a bolt cutter manufacturer: not responsible for the use to which tsomeone puts your product. > Consider what will happen as we move to NUMA/cluster/distributed > computing architectures. Linking will become less and less meaningful, > because programs will be composed into wholes much as functions are > composed into wholes currently. This is perhaps why the GPL doesn't > say that if it isn't linked, it is okay. At this point, they will have to use the "escape to a new version" mechanism in clause 9 to keep the license relevent. The initial LGPL failed to take into account dynamic linking; it still doesn't take into account data interfaces, or initialized data, which end up as part of the program image (the curses library has a number of external variables, and there are always declarations changes on "errno" and "syserrlist[]"). > I think it is a real problem that people can't easily get a good > authoritative definition of what is and is not a derivative work > when they need to make their decisions. At least in the U.S., there is a very clear legal definition, having to do with both overall percentage of code, and centrality of the code to the resulting work. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 16:19:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC85D37B404; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0344.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.89] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pICq-0005RO-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:19:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9E6CF7.2872C6E7@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:19:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Reiser Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020318195817.26106.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <3C967EE4.5E60D36@mindspring.com> <3C9E1D92.9040608@namesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hans Reiser wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >There are heroic technical measures you could take to get > >around these restrictions (BeOS links GPL'ed code into GPL > >external handler programs, and then talks to them via IPC > >to get around the GPL on come code, for instance), but the > >effort of doing that is probably more than simply writing > >a drop-in replacement from scratch, which is more than just > >licensing the code. > > > I think that BeOS violates the GPL. Linking is not in the license > language. Derivative is. They make the full source code for these programs available. I think that somone who writes non-GPL'ed code that communicates over a data interface to GPL'ed code, and treats the GPL'ed code consistently with the terms of the license, is not in violation. Specifically, if use of a data interface to a GPL'ed program by a non-GPL'ed program made the non-GPL'ed program GPL'ed, then the first time someone used Internet Expolorer ro surf to a web site whose content was served by a GPL'ed web server, IE would become GPL'ed. That's really an indefensible position. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Mar 24 16:24:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F9E37B400; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0344.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.89] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pIHl-0003DO-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:24:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9E6E28.9D0B8778@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:24:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Reiser Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/softupdates References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hans Reiser wrote: [ ... GPL'ed EXT2FS bits being available on the CDROM as source code, but not compiled into a distributed FreeBSD kernel ... ] > I think you guys are violating the GPL on ext2fs (assuming you are > correct that the UCB 4 part license violates the GPL --- I haven't read > that license). Well, feel free to bring a lawsuit. In the U.S., the loser pays court costs, so be sure you can win before you start. In reality, a great many lawyers have examined "mere agregration" like this, and decided that it's not a problem, and the license specifically states that it doesn't apply, in the last paragraph of section 2 of the license: In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. I think this applies to the BeOS case, as well. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 1:55:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 793B337B416 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 01:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23273 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2002 09:55:08 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2002 09:55:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9F0198.60709@namesys.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:53:12 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: Terry Lambert , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft References: <200203242253.OAA32942@InterJet.elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Julian Elischer wrote: > updates >In-Reply-To: <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > >On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Hans Reiser wrote: > >> > >>I think you guys are violating the GPL on ext2fs (assuming you are >>correct that the UCB 4 part license violates the GPL --- I haven't read >>that license). >> >>Hans >> > >A lot of the BSD ext2fs implementation is just the BSD code >changed to hold ext2fs structures since the on disk >layout is quite similar in a logical sense. >So it's BSD code and not derived from the Linux code. >I think the .h files may have soem Linux history > > >> >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message >> > > > ok, that makes sense. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 2: 1:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD9BA37B417 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23677 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2002 10:01:18 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2002 10:01:18 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9F030A.7040205@namesys.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:59:22 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020317225759.82774.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> <3C95ACBA.4040108@namesys.com> <3C95B838.F8ECE39A@mindspring.com> <3C95C8C3.7080803@namesys.com> <3C966CDF.25A7A379@mindspring.com> <3C9E1D6E.3080604@namesys.com> <3C9E6BEC.B2EB8D86@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >Hans Reiser wrote: > >>Terry Lambert wrote: >> >Precisely. So you can port it, and the result of the port >> >is still GPL'ed. At that point, you can treat it like any >> >other GPL'ed code that the original vendor had ported. >> > >> >You do the port, buy you don't distribute it, so you are not >> >required to make sources available. You merely use the port >> >internally. >> > >> >Alternately, you do the port, you distribute it, but you do >> >>distribute means what? >> > > "to give out or deliver especially to members of a > group " > >If you never do this, then the clauses which require source to >be given out are never invoked. > >> >not distribute it linked against your proprietary code. You >> >make the end user do the linking, if they want to use it. By >> >>There is absolutely nothing in the license that makes derivative >>specific to linking issues. >> > >It's not an issue of derivation. It's an issue of linking. It's >put in plain English in the last paragraph: > > This General Public License does not permit incorporating > your program into proprietary programs. If your program > is a subroutine library, you may consider it more useful > to permit linking proprietary applications with the > library. If this is what you want to do, use the GNU > Library General Public License instead of this License. > >If I link A + B -> C, then C is a derivative work of A and C is >a derivative work of B. > >If you look at clause 2(b), you'll see: > > You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, > that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the > Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at > no charge to all third parties under the terms of this > License. > >The "in whole or in part contains" is the kicker for linking. > To contain does not require linking. > > > >> >optioning it, you are off the hook for making your proprietary >> >source code available, but the end user is not. Since the >> >end user never had your source code, the end user can not >> >distribute the combined code further. >> >>No, you have made a derivative work. That you linked it only through a >>surrogate means nothing. >> > >The user is not a surrogate. If you had written a program, and >that did the linkage, then the program would be a surrogate. By >leaving it as an exercise for the user, you are in the same >position as an distillery or gun or a bolt cutter manufacturer: >not responsible for the use to which tsomeone puts your product. > > >>Consider what will happen as we move to NUMA/cluster/distributed >>computing architectures. Linking will become less and less meaningful, >>because programs will be composed into wholes much as functions are >>composed into wholes currently. This is perhaps why the GPL doesn't >>say that if it isn't linked, it is okay. >> > >At this point, they will have to use the "escape to a new version" >mechanism in clause 9 to keep the license relevent. The initial >LGPL failed to take into account dynamic linking; it still doesn't >take into account data interfaces, or initialized data, which end >up as part of the program image (the curses library has a number >of external variables, and there are always declarations changes on >"errno" and "syserrlist[]"). > > >>I think it is a real problem that people can't easily get a good >>authoritative definition of what is and is not a derivative work >>when they need to make their decisions. >> > >At least in the U.S., there is a very clear legal definition, >having to do with both overall percentage of code, and centrality >of the code to the resulting work. > >-- Terry > > So, if a vendor (not being hypothetical here) bases a cluster filesystem on reiserfs, is reiserfs central to the resulting work? I think so. I also think that linking or not linking is not determinative. Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 2: 9:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBC0437B41A for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23996 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2002 10:09:40 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2002 10:09:40 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9F0500.4050206@namesys.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:07:44 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/softupdates References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> <3C9E6E28.9D0B8778@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >Hans Reiser wrote: > >[ ... GPL'ed EXT2FS bits being available on the CDROM as source > code, but not compiled into a distributed FreeBSD kernel ... ] > >>I think you guys are violating the GPL on ext2fs (assuming you are >>correct that the UCB 4 part license violates the GPL --- I haven't read >>that license). >> > >Well, feel free to bring a lawsuit. In the U.S., the loser >pays court costs, so be sure you can win before you start. > >In reality, a great many lawyers have examined "mere agregration" >like this, and decided that it's not a problem, and the license >specifically states that it doesn't apply, in the last paragraph >of section 2 of the license: > > In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based > on the Program with the Program (or with a work based > on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution > medium does not bring the other work under the scope of > this License. > >I think this applies to the BeOS case, as well. > >-- Terry > > You aren't merely aggregating, you are compiling together and using together, except of course that another poster says you don't really use ext2fs code at all, so this is a moot point. Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 2:52:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9383637B416 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25135 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2002 10:52:44 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2002 10:52:44 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9F0F17.3000500@namesys.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:50:47 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020318195817.26106.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <3C967EE4.5E60D36@mindspring.com> <3C9E1D92.9040608@namesys.com> <3C9E6CF7.2872C6E7@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >Hans Reiser wrote: > >>Terry Lambert wrote: >> >There are heroic technical measures you could take to get >> >around these restrictions (BeOS links GPL'ed code into GPL >> >external handler programs, and then talks to them via IPC >> >to get around the GPL on come code, for instance), but the >> >effort of doing that is probably more than simply writing >> >a drop-in replacement from scratch, which is more than just >> >licensing the code. >> > >>I think that BeOS violates the GPL. Linking is not in the license >>language. Derivative is. >> > >They make the full source code for these programs available. > >I think that somone who writes non-GPL'ed code that communicates >over a data interface to GPL'ed code, and treats the GPL'ed code >consistently with the terms of the license, is not in violation. > >Specifically, if use of a data interface to a GPL'ed program >by a non-GPL'ed program made the non-GPL'ed program GPL'ed, >then the first time someone used Internet Expolorer ro surf >to a web site whose content was served by a GPL'ed web server, >IE would become GPL'ed. > >That's really an indefensible position. > >-- Terry > > Socially indefensible, maybe, logically indefensible, not at all. What is probably legally indefensible is to GPL without offering any additional license at any price (for antitrust reasons). Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 3: 9:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED3A37B419 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pSLZ-0003Z3-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:09:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9F0538.B3D00EE2@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:08:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Reiser Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev] Re: metadata update durability ordering/soft updates References: <20020317225759.82774.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> <3C95ACBA.4040108@namesys.com> <3C95B838.F8ECE39A@mindspring.com> <3C95C8C3.7080803@namesys.com> <3C966CDF.25A7A379@mindspring.com> <3C9E1D6E.3080604@namesys.com> <3C9E6BEC.B2EB8D86@mindspring.com> <3C9F030A.7040205@namesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hans Reiser wrote: > So, if a vendor (not being hypothetical here) bases a cluster filesystem > on reiserfs, is reiserfs central to the resulting work? > > I think so. I also think that linking or not linking is not determinative. It depends on what you mean by "bases". If you mean they take the ReiserFS source code and modify it to be "ReiserFS + clustering code that works only with Reiserfs becuse it shares code with it", then the answer is yes. If you mean they take a bunch of systems using ReiserFS as their filesystem, and cluster the machines using clustering software that can work with any FS, and it's only coincidental to the deployment that "the systems which are members of the cluseter use ReiserFS", then the answer is "no". If the answer is "yes", then the code is a derivative work. Now do they have to give out their source code? The answer is "not unless they copy and distribute the code". They only have to give out their source code (or an offer of it, valid for 3 years), if they sell, give away, or otherwise distribute the binary software for their clustering software. If they merely sell the use of the cluster (e.g. "Rent web hosting from ``Joe's web hosting'', on our nifty cluster"), then the answer is "no", because they did not "distribute or publish" the code; thus they are not regulated by section 2(b) of the GPL. Now say IBM buys "Joe's web hosting". Then they are distributing the code to IBM. The easy way to deal with this is to make IBM relink the clustering code after the purchase, and not transfer binary copies of the combined program. Thus the code is, again, not distributed, and the non-GPL'ed code linked with it doesn't fall under the GPL. Clause 2(b) clearly limits application of the license to programs which you copy and distribute. Similarly, 3(a), 3(b), and 3(c) also require copying and distribution. Section 3(c) is the most interesting. If you are given GPL'ed source code to a kernel component, and binary code that can be relinked with any coponent, including the GPL'ed kernel component, when you as an end user do the linking, then the resulting binary can not be redistributed, since you, as the user, do not have the source code to the binary portion, and therefore can not comply with section 3 by making available or offering to make available, or repeating a non-existant offer to make available, the source code to the binary portion of the program. Thus you can comply with the letter of the license, but not its spirit. There are at least 6 "direct" loopholes in the license, and another 4 "indirect" loopholes, which I'm aware of to date. The indirect loopholes are questionable, in that a court might not hold their application to be legal (intentional entry into a contract with the intent of non-performance). The license isn't very good at what it was supposedly designed to do... Actually, the Cygnus eCOS license is a much better instrumentality of "The GNU Manifesto" than either the GPL or the LGPL. If you are trying to support "The GNU Manifesto" through your choice of license, you are much, much better off using the eCOS license. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 3:17:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837E537B405; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pSTi-0007TK-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:17:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9F0730.418A94BE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:17:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Reiser Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/softupdates References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> <3C9E6E28.9D0B8778@mindspring.com> <3C9F0500.4050206@namesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hans Reiser wrote: > You aren't merely aggregating, you are compiling together and using > together, except of course that another poster says you don't really use > ext2fs code at all, so this is a moot point. I think by "compiled together", you mean "linking". But to use your terminology: BeOS is no more "compiling together and using together" the GPL'ed than Solaris is "compiled together and used together" with GCC when you install GCC on a Solaris system. The drivers run as programs. In the FreeBSD EXT2FS case, we *are NOT* "compiling together and using together" the code. That is the whole point of giving them the source code, and not distributing a kernel image that has been "compiled together" with the EXT2FS code, and which can not be "used together" with it, since the code was not compiled into it. By making it the responsibility of the user, it avoids the "copy and distribute" activity which is what triggers the license to cover the code with which it is "compiled together and used together". The user can perform this action themselves, at their option, just as they can compile and link and utilize any GPL'ed code they want to, on any system they want to. But by the nature of the licenses that the combined code would have to come under in order to be distributed, the combined code is not permitted to be distributed. The GPL is like "part B" of a binary nerve gas bomb. As long as you don't combine it with a "part A", there's no nerve gas, and no one gets hurt. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 3:23:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from thebsh.namesys.com (thebsh.namesys.com [212.16.7.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3AAB37B419 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27057 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2002 11:23:09 -0000 Received: from backtop.namesys.com (HELO namesys.com) (212.16.7.71) by thebsh.namesys.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2002 11:23:09 -0000 Message-ID: <3C9F1638.4020707@namesys.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:21:12 +0300 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020310 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/softupdates References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> <3C9E6E28.9D0B8778@mindspring.com> <3C9F0500.4050206@namesys.com> <3C9F0730.418A94BE@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > >The GPL is like "part B" of a binary nerve gas bomb. As long >as you don't combine it with a "part A", there's no nerve gas, >and no one gets hurt. > >-- Terry > > But you did FUNCTIONALLY combine it (or prepare it for combining), which is to say that you performed more than mere aggregation. Hans To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 4: 8:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9C237B405; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pTH8-0000wq-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:08:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C9F1329.E4BFC6D4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:08:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Reiser Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/softupdates References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> <3C9E6E28.9D0B8778@mindspring.com> <3C9F0500.4050206@namesys.com> <3C9F0730.418A94BE@mindspring.com> <3C9F1638.4020707@namesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hans Reiser wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >The GPL is like "part B" of a binary nerve gas bomb. As long > >as you don't combine it with a "part A", there's no nerve gas, > >and no one gets hurt. > > But you did FUNCTIONALLY combine it (or prepare it for combining), which > is to say that you performed more than mere aggregation. This is the fuxzzy part. Yes, it was prepared for combining, but it was not prepared exclusively for combining. The difference is whether or not the code that it's being combined with was modified to support an interface supported only by the GPL'ed code, or not. There are three places where this might be an issue with an FS: 1) The OS code will only operate with EXT2FS, and the EXT2FS code is GPL'ed. FreeBSD's use of the EXT2FS code doesn't fall under this, because the majority of the code is not GPL'ed, only some of it, and the code which is not was modified to operate with FreeBSD, and not the other way around. 2) There are additional components that exist only to interoperate with the GPL'ed code, and therefore these components should be considered GPL'ed, as they are arguably derivative works. A case might be made that the non-GPL'ed components of the FreeBSD EXT2FS implementation, except that these compnents are shared with an ecxisting implementation, so they don't constitute code that was purpose-written. 3) The on disk format for the FS constitutes a data interface, and the implementation of that interface is GPL'ed, and therefore the interface is GPL'ed. This doesn't work if the data format is published, which it can't help but be, for GPL'ed code (in fact, Partition Magic supports EXT2FS partitioning, and has no GPL'ed code in it to implement it). There was actually a lawsuit brought by the FSF over a case of a software product for cryuptography whic used an interface to an LGPL'ed library which was unique. The case failed to go to trial, when the software vendor wrote a plug-in replacement for the LGPL'ed library to show that the code was not itself derivative of the library because of the unique interface. Actually, this would have been a hard case to win, since the interface copyright failure by Apple, Microsoft, and the earlier Ashton Tate vs. Clipper, Inc. case over the dBase III language definition, in which it was held that a computer language could not be copyright (this is als an argument against case (3) above, which is an equivalent data interface). Actually, there's a guy at the UofU who got his Juris Doctorate (PhD in Law) in intellectual property law on the basis of software license and copyright; if this thread goes on for very much longer, I might have to take his name in vane to get him to give legal opinion, if he's up to doing it without charging for the act (you there, Lee? 8-)). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Mar 25 9: 1:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C7A37B405; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11992; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:01:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2PH1LA01851; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:01:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15519.22497.316581.402630@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:01:21 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Hans Reiser , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Greg Lehey , Chris Mason , Josh MacDonald , Parity Error , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, reiserfs-dev@namesys.com Subject: Re: [reiserfs-dev]i Re: metadata update durability ordering/softupdates In-Reply-To: <3C9F1329.E4BFC6D4@mindspring.com> References: <20020318174641.A1153@hpdi.ath.cx> <3C9676B4.49A76589@mindspring.com> <3C9E1DA4.1090703@namesys.com> <3C9E6E28.9D0B8778@mindspring.com> <3C9F0500.4050206@namesys.com> <3C9F0730.418A94BE@mindspring.com> <3C9F1638.4020707@namesys.com> <3C9F1329.E4BFC6D4@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There was actually a lawsuit brought by the FSF over a case of > a software product for cryuptography whic used an interface > to an LGPL'ed library which was unique. Actually, it wasn't a lawsuit, it was the threat of a lawsuit. > The case failed to go to trial, when the software vendor wrote a > plug-in replacement for the LGPL'ed library to show that the code was > not itself derivative of the library because of the unique interface. It wasn't a vendor, it was an individual. And, the code in question was the bignum library, so the individual took 2 days to write a *REALLY* *REALLY* *REALLY* slow version of the library that was functionally equivalent to the GNU version, and the threat was dropped. > Actually, this would have been a hard case to win, since the > interface copyright failure by Apple, Microsoft, and the > earlier Ashton Tate vs. Clipper, Inc. case over the dBase III > language definition, in which it was held that a computer > language could not be copyright (this is als an argument > against case (3) above, which is an equivalent data interface). RMS was (to put it mildly) unhappy, but did not pursue it after the alternative library was made available. To this point, the GNU license has never actually been tested in court, and I don't believe the above case would have been a good one to try, for the reasons above, plus others to esoteric to mention. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Mar 26 14: 6:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.libero.it (smtp1.libero.it [193.70.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E9037B405 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from J01P21sony (151.27.156.29) by smtp1.libero.it (6.5.015) id 3C99A601003C8D42 for freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:06:42 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c1d512$81fc0770$1d9c1b97@J01P21sony> From: "Stefano" <_vangelis@libero.it> To: Subject: subscribe freebsd-fs Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:06:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D51A.E2F53030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D51A.E2F53030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable subscribe freebsd-fs ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D51A.E2F53030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D51A.E2F53030-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Fri Mar 29 19:28:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gitgit.com (adsl-63-192-210-134.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.192.210.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D32F37B405 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gitgit.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.gitgit.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18FC474 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:40:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3CA5339B.884DBCF3@gitgit.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:40:11 -0800 From: Eric Chang Reply-To: echang@gitgit.com Organization: In The Box X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: zh-TW, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: untar +400,000 files freezes bsd? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------19653B28C9F8EBF2653359D7" Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------19653B28C9F8EBF2653359D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------19653B28C9F8EBF2653359D7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3CA5312F.60CD1E2B@gitgit.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:29:51 -0800 From: Eric Chang Reply-To: echang@gitgit.com Organization: In The Box X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: zh-TW, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: untar +400,000 files freezes bsd? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit when I tried to untar tarball(400M) that contains +400,000 directory/files, it freezes up after about +200,000 entries. I suspect it has something to do with my configuration limit, can someone please help? attached is my sysctl -a output. Thanks Eric Chang kern.osrelease: 4.4-RELEASE kern.osrevision: 199506 kern.version: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE #1: Fri Mar 29 15:04:00 PST 2002 root@superman.gitgit.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/MYKERNEL kern.maxvnodes: 112737 kern.maxproc: 16404 kern.maxfiles: 65536 kern.argmax: 65536 kern.securelevel: -1 kern.hostname: superman.gitgit.com kern.hostid: 0 kern.clockrate: { hz = 100, tick = 10000, tickadj = 5, profhz = 1024, stathz = 128 } kern.posix1version: 199309 kern.ngroups: 16 kern.job_control: 1 kern.saved_ids: 0 kern.boottime: { sec = 1017455886, usec = 943335 } Fri Mar 29 18:38:06 2002 kern.domainname: kern.osreldate: 440000 kern.bootfile: /kernel kern.maxfilesperproc: 32808 kern.maxprocperuid: 16403 kern.dumpdev: kern.ipc.maxsockbuf: 262144 kern.ipc.sockbuf_waste_factor: 8 kern.ipc.somaxconn: 4096 kern.ipc.max_linkhdr: 16 kern.ipc.max_protohdr: 60 kern.ipc.max_hdr: 76 kern.ipc.max_datalen: 136 kern.ipc.nmbclusters: 8192 kern.ipc.semmap: 30 kern.ipc.semmni: 10 kern.ipc.semmns: 60 kern.ipc.semmnu: 30 kern.ipc.semmsl: 60 kern.ipc.semopm: 100 kern.ipc.semume: 10 kern.ipc.semusz: 92 kern.ipc.semvmx: 32767 kern.ipc.semaem: 16384 kern.ipc.shmmax: 33554432 kern.ipc.shmmin: 1 kern.ipc.shmmni: 192 kern.ipc.shmseg: 128 kern.ipc.shmall: 8192 kern.ipc.shm_use_phys: 0 kern.ipc.mbuf_wait: 32 kern.ipc.mbtypes: 154 77 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 kern.ipc.nmbufs: 32768 kern.ipc.maxsockets: 32808 kern.dummy: 0 kern.ps_strings: 3217031152 kern.usrstack: 3217031168 kern.logsigexit: 1 kern.cam.da.retry_count: 4 kern.cam.da.default_timeout: 60 kern.cam.cd.changer.min_busy_seconds: 5 kern.cam.cd.changer.max_busy_seconds: 15 kern.fallback_elf_brand: -1 kern.init_path: /sbin/init:/sbin/oinit:/sbin/init.bak:/stand/sysinstall kern.module_path: /;/boot/;/modules/ kern.acct_suspend: 2 kern.acct_resume: 4 kern.acct_chkfreq: 15 kern.cp_time: 30952 0 37840 989 95250 kern.timecounter.method: 0 kern.timecounter.hardware: i8254 kern.openfiles: 66 kern.ps_arg_cache_limit: 256 kern.ps_argsopen: 1 kern.fast_vfork: 1 kern.randompid: 0 kern.maxusers: 1024 kern.ps_showallprocs: 1 kern.shutdown.poweroff_delay: 5000 kern.shutdown.kproc_shutdown_wait: 60 kern.sugid_coredump: 0 --------------19653B28C9F8EBF2653359D7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message