From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 22 00:46:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8A537B401; Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D5243FA3; Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:46:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030622074647.JRYY28183.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:46:47 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:46:45 +0100 To: David Schultz From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030622055900.GA60949@HAL9000.homeunix.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 07:46:51 -0000 At 22:59 21/06/2003 -0700, David Schultz wrote: >If you just want to know that the bits you have came from >freebsd.org, that's another thing. The technology to do that >already exists in cvsup, as long as you trust the mirrors. (Most >of them probably don't use authentication right now, but that can >be fixed, I'm sure, if enough people are concerned about it.) Well, sort of. The authentication in cvsup relies upon starting with a shared secret, which isn't an option for the general public. >If your whole point is that you don't trust the mirrors, then maybe >you have a case for signing deltas on the master... Exactly. I might, grudgingly, be willing to trust the people who run the cvsup mirrors -- although I'd really rather not -- but trusting the security, physical and electronic, of the mirrors is quite a different matter. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 00:24:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F3F37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 00:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FDA43FE3 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 00:24:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5N7OOvD023023 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:24:24 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5N7OIHE023022 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:24:18 +0200 (SAST) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:24:18 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030623072418.GF18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IJAclU0AInkryoed" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:24:39 -0000 --IJAclU0AInkryoed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, again.=20 No use signing if cvsup is a mess. We need cvsup-ssl, Then, all the big security guys need to do=20 is provide a public key for the cvsup-mirrors, which then get the public key for the big cvsup server, etc.=20 That way, cvsup is secure, and we can trust it. Then, we just get all the ports maintainers to provide public keys and then we can download the distfiles from ftp\http and know they're trusted.=20 On the other hand, this means that we don't really need signed=20 distfiles, the md5 checksum should do just fine, because we know that we're getting our ports tree from a trusted source. Thats just how I see it. Please, Please stop me if I'm wrong.=20 Please correct me if I misunderstood all the e-mails in this thread too. = =20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za For countless days, We walked alone, Directionless and vunerable, Sitting t= argets wearing smiles. =20 --IJAclU0AInkryoed Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+9qshju3fq0dMPxsRAhEzAJ4q2SwBAjxlINbiiS0TQCcu5Z0a1ACgnd2N KMVq8JzDHM/sfvdYxysY0ug= =EGqB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IJAclU0AInkryoed-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 00:32:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE9837B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 00:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566AC43F85 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 00:31:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5N7VivD023077 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:31:44 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5N7VdBO023076 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:31:39 +0200 (SAST) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:31:39 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030623073139.GG18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030623072418.GF18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UK1lfQXsnwKrySH9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030623072418.GF18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:32:03 -0000 --UK1lfQXsnwKrySH9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, and, the cvsup -a option, how trust-worthy is that?=20 On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 09:24:18AM +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > Hi, again.=20 >=20 > No use signing if cvsup is a mess. > We need cvsup-ssl, Then, all the big security guys need to do=20 > is provide a public key for the cvsup-mirrors, which then get > the public key for the big cvsup server, etc.=20 >=20 > That way, cvsup is secure, and we can trust it. >=20 > Then, we just get all the ports maintainers to provide public keys > and then we can download the distfiles from ftp\http and know > they're trusted.=20 >=20 > On the other hand, this means that we don't really need signed=20 > distfiles, the md5 checksum should do just fine, because we know > that we're getting our ports tree from a trusted source. >=20 > Thats just how I see it. Please, Please stop me if I'm wrong.=20 >=20 > Please correct me if I misunderstood all the e-mails in this thread too. = =20 >=20 > --=20 > William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za > http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ > Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 > Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 > Support: support@epweb.co.za >=20 > For countless days, We walked alone, Directionless and vunerable, Sitting= targets wearing smiles. > =20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 Worship me! :) Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za Super Admin... Da-ta-da!=20 --UK1lfQXsnwKrySH9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+9qzaju3fq0dMPxsRAsV4AJ9kBr0rAukKD2qPfiQSzrS6uacWjQCcCwnw bAMT9emXrV8PVMu9M1irAXc= =gGog -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UK1lfQXsnwKrySH9-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 01:55:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A2A37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEA243FE9 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19UN6c-0008O7-Mo; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:55:18 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:55:18 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20030623085518.GC15584@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030620192632.GA82131@packet.org.uk> <200306202015.h5KKFCHh042755@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306202015.h5KKFCHh042755@grimreaper.grondar.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Peter McGarvey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 08:55:14 -0000 On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 09:15:12PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: > Peter McGarvey writes: > > > Correct, but they call it SA80 or SA80A. > > > > Or, more often, useless piece of junk. > > That too. > > > But IIRC, the SAS do use HK MP5s. > > For urban warfare etc, sure. They also use the M16/M203 for more > conventional work. OK, first off, my mistake - I was mistaking the SA80 with the MP5. Before you all start scoffing, I am not a gun nut. It is rather perturbing though that so many people on the FreeBSD project know not only what guns various armies have as standard issue, but what special units use in special circumstances. This is most worrying. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 02:26:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA0837B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6125F43FE1 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5N9Q51f070680; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:26:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5N9Q519070679; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:26:05 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5N9O0Hh028560; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:24:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306230924.h5N9O0Hh028560@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:55:18 BST." <20030623085518.GC15584@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:24:00 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: Peter McGarvey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:26:08 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > OK, first off, my mistake - I was mistaking the SA80 with the MP5. Before > you all start scoffing, I am not a gun nut. NP :-) > It is rather perturbing though that so many people on the FreeBSD project > know not only what guns various armies have as standard issue, but what > special units use in special circumstances. Hey, I have a Y chromosome. Goes with the territory! > This is most worrying. :-) Did I mention national service? Having done compulsory military service, I know a bit more about guns than I really ought to! M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 03:04:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E9D37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B58343FB1 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:04:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030623100428.FJNW28183.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:04:28 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030623105821.02cfd9c0@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:04:15 +0100 To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za, chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030623072418.GF18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:04:32 -0000 At 09:24 23/06/2003 +0200, William Fletcher wrote: >No use signing if cvsup is a mess. False. If the ports tree is signed, people can verify its integrity regardless of how they obtain it. >We need cvsup-ssl, Then, all the big security guys need to do >is provide a public key for the cvsup-mirrors, which then get >the public key for the big cvsup server, etc. > >That way, cvsup is secure, and we can trust it. Not good enough. Cvsup-ssl would secure the cvsup process itself, but it would not protect against a malicious or damaged cvsup mirror. We need end-to-end signing -- the ports tree should be signed on freefall or cvsup-master, and verified by the end users. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 03:05:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACFC37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EC243FA3 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19UOCS-0008ZA-TZ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:05:24 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:05:24 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Colin Percival , chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20030623100524.GI15584@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030622033625.GA60460@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030622033625.GA60460@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:05:13 -0000 On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 08:36:25PM -0700, David Schultz wrote: > I don't see why people need to update their ports tree more often than > once a release. Perhaps, because they don't want to run out of date software? This ties in rather nicely in places with the packages discussion over on -hackers, but in essence, people should be able to keep their software patched and secure as easily as possible. Would you rather be running an apache server where the MD5 checked, but it's not cryptographically signed OR would you rather run one which is crypto-signed but has a remote root exploit in it? Paranoia is all well and good, but it's no replacement for common sense. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 03:06:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69D937B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC93643FB1 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:06:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030623100620.FNEH28183.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:06:20 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030623110431.02cf9bb0@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:06:17 +0100 To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za, chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030623073139.GG18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030623072418.GF18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622084009.01c8d600@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030623072418.GF18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:06:23 -0000 At 09:31 23/06/2003 +0200, William Fletcher wrote: >Oh, and, the cvsup -a option, how trust-worthy is that? I'm not sure, and I don't know enough m3 to work that out from the source code. If you really want to know, ask jdp. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 03:16:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E9D37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D3A43FF2 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19UONP-0008cw-Ji; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:16:43 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:16:43 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20030623101643.GJ15584@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030623085518.GC15584@iconoplex.co.uk> <200306230924.h5N9O0Hh028560@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306230924.h5N9O0Hh028560@grimreaper.grondar.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Peter McGarvey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:16:33 -0000 On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 10:24:00AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: > Hey, I have a Y chromosome. Goes with the territory! I have one too. I just don't use it so much. :-) > > This is most worrying. :-) > > Did I mention national service? Having done compulsory military service, I > know a bit more about guns than I really ought to! Ahhh. Funnily enough, we don't have that in the UK, and with good reason. A lot of people think it would be great to bring it back, but I disagree. Mainly because I would have to do it. However, when I get to the age of 35 (10 years and a bit) when I will be no longer eligible, I'll be able to fully support the notion... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 06:45:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2292237B404 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CD243FBD for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:45:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0ao.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.1.88] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19URdg-00048I-00; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:45:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF70439.3201E9A9@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:44:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Ramirez References: <20030617.060806.42773474.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030617.204100.122615446.imp@bsdimp.com> <3EF0331A.2F2CF1DB@mindspring.com><3EF17471.36CC59B9@mindspring.com> <3EF29286.99CF131D@mindspring.com> <20030620172540.GA54062@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20030621110207.J68473@www.bluecirclesoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d97f1c40da22ff807c229a3cfb0064dc387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chris Sontag/SCO and FUD relating toBSDsettlement agreement) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:45:50 -0000 Marc Ramirez wrote: > "Stop, or I shall say, 'Stop!' again!" > -- Monty Python's Flying Circus > > I forget who was playing the bobby... John Cleese. 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 07:15:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA8F37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67D943FE1 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0ao.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.1.88] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19US5p-0000PW-00; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:14:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF70AEA.9FAC92A9@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:12:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ca73417f1676498ace92b157c06ee3cf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:15:25 -0000 William Fletcher wrote: > One other thing while I'm at making a clown of myself. > > Wouldn't it be an absolute joke if someone rooted a redhat box on > your network, dns poisoned for cvsup.*.freebsd.org and promptly > found a way to create a cvsup-mirror on another machine > with modified source. > > They could then trojan /usr/src and /usr/ports and probably gain > root on all your machines running FreeBSD, quick and easy. > > Just wanted the general publics opinion of that too. > > Anyway, home time, expect interesting responses on monday morning. > (Will sign up to security-general again). > > PS. Some people work for companies which inflict redhat on them. :/ FWIW: If they did this, they'd just declare themselves a signing authority, and sign the trojan'ed packages themselves. All you've done by introducing signatures is add one more hoop for them to jump through. At the same time, you've made ports quit working over code changes, which is something that was one of the best benefits of the ports tree in the first place. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 07:20:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D462E37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C155543F75 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5NEL4vD025318 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:21:04 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5NEKxRr025317 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:20:59 +0200 (SAST) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:20:59 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030623142058.GF24407@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <3EF70AEA.9FAC92A9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KIzF6Cje4W/osXrF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF70AEA.9FAC92A9@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:20:56 -0000 --KIzF6Cje4W/osXrF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All I really want, is to know that my /usr/src and /usr/ports=20 aren't screwed up, can't be trojaned by somebody on my local lan. I don't trust local networks, especially ones with all sorts of clowns running all sorts of installations.=20 On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 07:12:58AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > William Fletcher wrote: > > One other thing while I'm at making a clown of myself. > >=20 > > Wouldn't it be an absolute joke if someone rooted a redhat box on > > your network, dns poisoned for cvsup.*.freebsd.org and promptly > > found a way to create a cvsup-mirror on another machine > > with modified source. > >=20 > > They could then trojan /usr/src and /usr/ports and probably gain > > root on all your machines running FreeBSD, quick and easy. > >=20 > > Just wanted the general publics opinion of that too. > >=20 > > Anyway, home time, expect interesting responses on monday morning. > > (Will sign up to security-general again). > >=20 > > PS. Some people work for companies which inflict redhat on them. :/ >=20 > FWIW: If they did this, they'd just declare themselves a signing > authority, and sign the trojan'ed packages themselves. All you've > done by introducing signatures is add one more hoop for them to > jump through. At the same time, you've made ports quit working > over code changes, which is something that was one of the best > benefits of the ports tree in the first place. >=20 > -- Terry --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za My new years resolution will be to not get stressed by linux and its users.= =20 --KIzF6Cje4W/osXrF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+9wzKju3fq0dMPxsRAnxXAJ4oi9sY58AfJuMgmhbd5aO8gJB1QQCdHkm7 gCBWp5s1YGpQNDyrFNgsJGU= =eooP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KIzF6Cje4W/osXrF-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 07:22:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1DA37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sebastian.foriru.co.uk (public1-with2-4-cust22.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [213.106.181.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0149B43FDF for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:22:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from S@mSmith.net) Received: from sebastian.foriru.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sebastian.foriru.co.uk (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5NEMwG3016636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:22:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (sams@localhost)h5NEMvPU027699; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:22:58 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: sebastian.foriru.co.uk: sams owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:22:57 +0100 (BST) From: Sam Smith X-X-Sender: sams@sebastian.foriru.co.uk To: William Fletcher In-Reply-To: <20030623142058.GF24407@tulip.epweb.co.za> Message-ID: References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030623142058.GF24407@tulip.epweb.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:22:35 -0000 On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, William Fletcher wrote: > All I really want, is to know that my /usr/src and /usr/ports > aren't screwed up, can't be trojaned by somebody on my local lan. > > I don't trust local networks, especially ones with all sorts of > clowns running all sorts of installations. run anoncvs over ssh then. Sam -- Pessimism: Every dark cloud has a silver lining. Lightning kills hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 07:42:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CE037B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099F243F85 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19USWa-00093b-1t for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:42:28 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:42:28 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030623144228.GB34365@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <3EF70AEA.9FAC92A9@mindspring.com> <20030623142058.GF24407@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20030623142058.GF24407@tulip.epweb.co.za> Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:42:17 -0000 On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 04:20:59PM +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > All I really want, is to know that my /usr/src and /usr/ports=20 > aren't screwed up, can't be trojaned by somebody on my local lan. But you don't mind them being trojanned by somebody with cvs commit bit on the CVS servers that your ports and /usr/src come from? =20 > I don't trust local networks, especially ones with all sorts of > clowns running all sorts of installations.=20 You don't trust your local network, but you do trust the rest of the=20 Internet? I want to meet you. You're funny.=20 You're worse than the guy I know whose Solaris boxes keep getting rooted and he just re-installs the original OS without patching because "they'll get= =20 in eventually anyway". Crypto-signing ports and packages does not solve the problem you want to solve. It just creates a sense of false security. If you are paranoid, inspect source before running make. If you don't want to, accept you have to trust the site it came from. If you can't inspect the source and you can't trust the site, either don't run the code, expect to be 0wned one day, or delete your FreeBSD parition and buy all your software from an approved Microsoft reseller[1]. Personally, I trust occasional inspections over code, watching the output o= f=20 the cvs grab in the daily run, and trusting the sites I got it from. If the= y=20 were crypto-signed I would: - not see ports being upgraded so quickly - be trusting somebody I don't know anyway who is just the passphrase holde= r=20 for a key belonging to a project made up of volunteers who created a signin= g=20 authority that doesn't actually exist as a legal entity (Lord Archer has=20 more credibility than that) - expect more ports to fail to build - expect more porters to ask "wtf is the point? I'll just keep it on Linux= =20 because it's easy and I'm lazy" - realise that I have approximately 0% more security for 10% more effort on= =20 the porters part This is soooooo bikeshed it makes my installer thread from last week look critical to the project's success... which obviously it isn't[2] to anybody but me. :-)) --=20 Paul Robinson [1] It goes without saying, this is not sensible advice. I was being ironic= .=20 buying your software from an approved MS reseller is the quickest way to=20 your machine being ripped apart by 14-year olds in California I know. With= =20 the exception of 2003 Server, which seems fine. To me. [2] ... yet :-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 07:45:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901D837B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sebastian.foriru.co.uk (public1-with2-4-cust22.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [213.106.181.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F81143FBD for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from S@mSmith.net) Received: from sebastian.foriru.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sebastian.foriru.co.uk (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5NEkEG3021397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:46:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (sams@localhost)h5NEkD6Y006850; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:46:13 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: sebastian.foriru.co.uk: sams owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:46:13 +0100 (BST) From: Sam Smith X-X-Sender: sams@sebastian.foriru.co.uk To: "Daniel C. Sobral" In-Reply-To: <3EF70DF0.7030705@tcoip.com.br> Message-ID: References: <3EF70DF0.7030705@tcoip.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:45:17 -0000 On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > >>> New committer: Diomidis D. Spinellis, Greece, dds@. > >>Welcome! So now we have a das, dcs, dds, and des. And soon, our > >>plan for world domination will be complete! > > what happenned to dbs? > > Secret committer. We'll keep dbs hidden to deceive people in thinking we > are one member shorter of world domination than we really are. isn't that wmd@ ? Sam -- Fear: Until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore, you will not know the terror of being forever lost at sea. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 20:21:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0832D37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta4.adelphia.net (mta4.adelphia.net [64.8.50.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5379243F93 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:21:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta4.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030624032145.FUGM1347.mta4.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:21:45 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF7C3C9.8080202@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:21:45 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: What's up with the legal status of RC4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:21:47 -0000 I'm trying to implement encryption in PDF files ... The PDF spec says to use RC4 to encrypt the data. I've found some data on how to do RC4 (perl & C) but there seems to (potentially) be a legal issue with using it. Anyone know the actual legal status of RC4? Is it patented or anything. Can I legally implement it and sell software using it? I've seen mention of ARC4 (the "Alleged RC4" algorithm) and it seems like mumbo-jumbo to keep folks out of jail or court. Anyone have any pointers to FAQs on this or know what's up? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 20:28:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE47837B401 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F5643F93 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however ([206.171.168.138]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:27:18 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Bill Moran" , Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:28:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3EF7C3C9.8080202@potentialtech.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: RE: What's up with the legal status of RC4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:28:59 -0000 > The PDF spec says to use RC4 to encrypt the data. I've found > some data on how > to do RC4 (perl & C) but there seems to (potentially) be a legal > issue with using it. No issue with the algorithm, just the name 'RC4' which is a trademark. > Anyone know the actual legal status of RC4? Is it patented or > anything. Can > I legally implement it and sell software using it? I've seen > mention of ARC4 > (the "Alleged RC4" algorithm) and it seems like mumbo-jumbo to > keep folks out > of jail or court. Anyone have any pointers to FAQs on this or > know what's up? Because the name 'RC4' is trademarked, but people still need a way to refer to the algorithm, it's generally called 'arcfour'. The think about alleged RC4 is not true anymore, dating back to when the RC4 algorithm itself was proprietary, the algorithm is now known and its use is unrestricted. (I'm going from memory here, please correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly.) DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 00:41:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0579E37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FABF43FA3 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5O7fHvD028641 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:41:17 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5O7fCf6028640 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:41:12 +0200 (SAST) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:41:11 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030624074111.GE26567@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <3EF70AEA.9FAC92A9@mindspring.com> <20030623142058.GF24407@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030623144228.GB34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030623144228.GB34365@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:41:32 -0000 --qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > You don't trust your local network, but you do trust the rest of the=20 > Internet? I want to meet you. You're funny. No. Just, what do people do when they root on box on a network? Try take over the rest of the network. Thats why I think cvsup-ssl or knowing cvsup -a works would be great. What I'm saying is, I want to trust the cvsup server, so, people on my local lan, or anywhere, cannot fiddle with traffic from it, etc.=20 Anyway, this thread needs to die.=20 =20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za My new years resolution will be to not get stressed by linux and its users.= =20 --qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++ACXju3fq0dMPxsRAt6JAJ9diySmhv1vMJtSfQ5WuUTMLoYzKQCfRbbp /S/ZSwZx3ZlzqZozWNXzwIk= =ufMT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 05:58:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A6037B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-154-35-102.asm.bellsouth.net [68.154.35.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D68843F85 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (sektie@localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1])h5ODvYAa093908; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:57:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: Mark Murray Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:57:34 -0500 Message-Id: <20030624135410.M98750@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <200306230924.h5N9O0Hh028560@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:55:18 BST." <20030623085518.GC15584@iconoplex.co.uk> <200306230924.h5N9O0Hh028560@grimreaper.grondar.org> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 192.168.0.9 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:58:36 -0000 > Hey, I have a Y chromosome. Goes with the territory! http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,59295,00.html neener neener. :P Randi Harper sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 06:21:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C6237B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-f75.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.245.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6047443FB1 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:21:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from elmojo@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:21:20 -0700 Received: from 65.41.41.241 by by1fd.bay1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:21:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.41.41.241] X-Originating-Email: [elmojo@hotmail.com] From: "Mike Piantanida IV" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:21:19 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2003 13:21:20.0235 (UTC) FILETIME=[801963B0:01C33A53] Subject: Attn Chip: Motherboard for sale? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:21:21 -0000 Hi! Do you still have the motherboard? I am thinking about doing a project that would be easier with a laptop mboard rather than a desktop one. How much are you asking? How much RAM? Thanks, Mike Piantanida IV Please respond to: elmojo@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 12:32:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068EF37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monet.psys.org (monet.psys.org [64.81.145.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BA343F3F for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from www-data@psys.org) Received: from www-data by monet.psys.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19UtWJ-00030K-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:31:59 -0500 Received: from 63.73.213.5 (SquirrelMail authenticated user brian) by webmail.psys.org with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:31:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <41567.63.73.213.5.1056483119.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:31:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Brian Sobolak" To: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.4.0 RC1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: www-data Subject: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: brian@planetshwoop.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:32:01 -0000 FreeBSD is the OS of the #1 listed hosting provider. Sweet. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 13:13:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC0937B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FF743FAF for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558B03D28; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:13:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Brian Sobolak" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:13:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EF878C0.10628.3AF5FEDE@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <41567.63.73.213.5.1056483119.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:13:54 -0000 On 24 Jun 2003 at 14:31, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > > FreeBSD is the OS of the #1 listed hosting provider. Sweet. *cough* "Hosting Providers sites ordered by failures (50 sites)" -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 13:19:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE2937B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13ADF43F3F for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030624201934.SHXP16215.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:19:34 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030624211619.01dfc8a0@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:19:32 +0100 To: "Dan Langille" , "Brian Sobolak" From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <3EF878C0.10628.3AF5FEDE@localhost> References: <41567.63.73.213.5.1056483119.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:19:46 -0000 At 16:13 24/06/2003 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: >On 24 Jun 2003 at 14:31, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > > > > > FreeBSD is the OS of the #1 listed hosting provider. Sweet. > >*cough* > >"Hosting Providers sites ordered by failures (50 sites)" More to the point, 21 of those 50 are all rated equal, with no detected failures; of those 21, 4 run FreeBSD, 1 runs HP-UX, 7 run Linux, 1 runs NT4/Windows 98, 2 run Solaris 8, 1 is unknown, and 5 run Windows 2000. If there's anything significant to be learned from that, I don't know what it is. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 13:31:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E9237B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [64.8.50.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A39E43FD7 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030624203140.ZIXE1359.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:31:40 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF8B52C.9030303@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:31:40 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EF878C0.10628.3AF5FEDE@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3EF878C0.10628.3AF5FEDE@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:31:42 -0000 Dan Langille wrote: > On 24 Jun 2003 at 14:31, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > >> >> >>FreeBSD is the OS of the #1 listed hosting provider. Sweet. > > *cough* You might want to have that looked at ... wouldn't want it to turn into something serious (sars?) > "Hosting Providers sites ordered by failures (50 sites)" The part I find interesting, is that if you sort by the various performance and reliability columns, you find that the number one provider for each stat is using FreeBSD in most cases. (Except the DNS response times, looks like the Linux folks are faster at that) -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 13:49:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BAD37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7220243FF2 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC043D28; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:49:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Bill Moran Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:49:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:49:57 -0000 On 24 Jun 2003 at 16:31, Bill Moran wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > > *cough* > > You might want to have that looked at ... wouldn't want it > to turn into something serious (sars?) But seriously, with respect to Canada, how much press is SARS getting? What impression are you being left with in terms of the risks? Number of people infected? How the residents are reacting? -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 14:05:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABCF437B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E4243FDD for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Uuu5-0007fu-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:00:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Uulw-00078h-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:52:12 +0200 From: "William Henny" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:52:11 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3EF878C0.10628.3AF5FEDE@localhost> <3EF8B52C.9030303@potentialtech.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (NetBSD) Sender: news Subject: Re: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:05:01 -0000 In article <3EF8B52C.9030303@potentialtech.com>, Bill Moran wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: >> On 24 Jun 2003 at 14:31, Brian Sobolak wrote: >> >> >>> >>> > > The part I find interesting, is that if you sort by the various > performance and reliability columns, you find that the number one > provider for each stat is using FreeBSD in most cases. (Except > the DNS response times, looks like the Linux folks are faster at > that) Actually, FreeBSD 'wins' the "connect" and "first byte" categories while Linux 'wins' the DNS and "total" categories. What exactly these stats measure is explained here: http://uptime.netcraft.com/perf/FAQ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 14:07:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55BC37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [64.8.50.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B37843F75 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030624210741.THJV1347.mta10.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:07:41 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF8BD9C.3080002@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:07:40 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:07:43 -0000 Dan Langille wrote: > On 24 Jun 2003 at 16:31, Bill Moran wrote: > >>Dan Langille wrote: >> >>>*cough* >> >>You might want to have that looked at ... wouldn't want it >>to turn into something serious (sars?) > > But seriously, with respect to Canada, how much press is SARS > getting? What impression are you being left with in terms of the > risks? Number of people infected? How the residents are reacting? If you're speaking to me, specifically: I live in Pennsylvania ... and I pay almost no attention to the mass media - I don't trust them. Ever since Sept 11th, when supposedly "reputable" media sources were spreading all manner of lies in the interest of "getting a scoop" I have refused to pay any attention to mass media. I did spend a few months researching the stories they reported after Sept 11th and I've come to the personal conclusion that any assertation by the media that they've researched the story they're reporting or that they have any clue what's actually going on is just another lie. So I don't have any opinion on the sars situation. I simply have heard people talk about it off and on, so I know enough that I figure it's a good topic to make tasteful jokes about (although I sometimes misjudge where the line is between tasteful and whatver other kind of jokes there are) I also do not trust mainstream medicine, who are the people babbling about sars to the media, and I do not fear disease the way some people do, since I've been lucky enough to be born with a somewhat stronger than average immune system. Since (from what I have heard) most of the people who seem to be dying from sars are in the "not in great health" category, I don't consider the disease a threat to me, personally. So, I guess I have heard some things, and I guess that's my opinion of what I've heard. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 15:13:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B520C37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fbfguns.com (adsl-64-123-156-89.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net [64.123.156.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3FE443F3F for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@fbfguns.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:13:20 -0500 Message-ID: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC37713FE66@mail.fbfguns.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: English Police Officers Thread-Index: AcM5ZTgDAepxzy2uTUqhTvWcs25OKgBNeytg From: "Jason Burgess" To: Subject: RE: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:13:22 -0000 Why is that worrying? I work for a company that sells some of these guns. ;) Jason Burgess -----Original Message----- From: Paul Robinson [mailto:paul@iconoplex.co.uk]=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:55 AM To: Mark Murray Cc: Peter McGarvey; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 09:15:12PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: > Peter McGarvey writes: > > > Correct, but they call it SA80 or SA80A. > >=20 > > Or, more often, useless piece of junk. >=20 > That too. >=20 > > But IIRC, the SAS do use HK MP5s. >=20 > For urban warfare etc, sure. They also use the M16/M203 for more > conventional work. OK, first off, my mistake - I was mistaking the SA80 with the MP5. Before=20 you all start scoffing, I am not a gun nut. It is rather perturbing though that so many people on the FreeBSD project=20 know not only what guns various armies have as standard issue, but what=20 special units use in special circumstances. This is most worrying. :-) --=20 Paul Robinson _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 15:42:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD14837B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A36B43FBF for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (12-206-23-247.client.attbi.com [12.206.23.247]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1952A40B; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (localhost.techno.pagans [127.0.0.1]) by speck.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id 50D9E5ABE; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:42:15 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: "Dan Langille" Message-Id: <20030624154215.032d420c.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> References: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: wmoran@potentialtech.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:42:27 -0000 "Dan Langille" wrote: >On 24 Jun 2003 at 16:31, Bill Moran wrote: > >> Dan Langille wrote: >> >> > *cough* >> >> You might want to have that looked at ... wouldn't want it >> to turn into something serious (sars?) > >But seriously, with respect to Canada, how much press is SARS >getting? What impression are you being left with in terms of the >risks? Number of people infected? How the residents are reacting? The media is treating it like Y2k. Recently, there's a weekly story on TV and radio news about someone with "SARS-like symptoms". My question is, what makes them SARS-like symptoms? I thought one of the big problems with SARS is that, short of death, its symptoms are identical to those of the flu. Though I will admit it's been fun this past couple of weeks getting over my allergy-induced chest cold. I've never seen so many people scared of a coughing fit. :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 15:48:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F156A37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF19A43FDF for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030624224838.MAVO21249.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:48:38 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030624234544.0352ab50@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:48:29 +0100 To: Darren Pilgrim , "Dan Langille" From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030624154215.032d420c.dmp@pantherdragon.org> References: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:48:41 -0000 At 15:42 24/06/2003 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >Though I will admit it's been fun this past couple of weeks getting over my >allergy-induced chest cold. I've never seen so many people scared of a >coughing >fit. :) I've found that a very effective way to end conversations is to cough and casually mention that I caught my cold from a friend who had returned from Toronto a couple days earlier. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 02:46:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7BC37B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyblik.pieskovisko.sk (kyblik.pieskovisko.sk [213.215.72.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C694744001 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:46:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frankie@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk) Received: (qmail 36961 invoked by uid 19508); 25 Jun 2003 09:46:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:46:16 +0200 From: "Michal F. Hanula" To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030625094616.GD66485@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk> References: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> <3EF8BD9C.3080002@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2Z2K0IlrPCVsbNpk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF8BD9C.3080002@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:46:19 -0000 --2Z2K0IlrPCVsbNpk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:07:40PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: [...] > immune system. Since (from what I have heard) most of the people who seem > to be dying from sars are in the "not in great health" category, I don't > consider the disease a threat to me, personally. In fact most of people dying of anything are in the ``not in great health'' category. Dying tends to be quite unhealthy. m&f --=20 What do you care what other people think? --2Z2K0IlrPCVsbNpk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++W9o4PY2BaN84VwRApwjAJ9XeMih8HJNMX24huXZtMbudj7HOACeL9h5 WDYqHD2eMeLQZmkYwUZtiT8= =bTId -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2Z2K0IlrPCVsbNpk-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 03:58:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C41237B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 03:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmxpita.excite.com (nn8.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E5843FE0 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 03:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john_wilson100@excite.com) Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 2B663F634; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 06:58:02 -0400 (EDT) To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from [62.90.149.2] by xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 06:58:02 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 5476bea7b3df0ed0ebc8d8e1f56e2d24 From: "" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: john_wilson100@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20030625105802.2B663F634@xmxpita.excite.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 06:58:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 04:42:24 -0700 Subject: BSD Daemon used without permission (probably) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: john_wilson100@excite.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:58:04 -0000 http://free-hot-xxx.com/recips/ll/Animation4.gif Just FYI JW _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 07:53:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF5737B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C610D43F3F for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 19VBeT-00053f-0U for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:53:37 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:36:26 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Kevin Golding References: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> <3EF8BD9C.3080002@potentialtech.com> <20030625094616.GD66485@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk> In-Reply-To: <20030625094616.GD66485@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Subject: Re: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:53:42 -0000 In article <20030625094616.GD66485@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk>, Michal F. Hanula writes >On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 05:07:40PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: >[...] >> immune system. Since (from what I have heard) most of the people who seem >> to be dying from sars are in the "not in great health" category, I don't >> consider the disease a threat to me, personally. >In fact most of people dying of anything are in the ``not in great >health'' category. Dying tends to be quite unhealthy. Dying is one of the healthiest things you can do. Every year the living get colds and flu, but dead people never get so much as a sniffle. Don't forget the undead either! Considering how close they get to people you never hear about vampires picking up bugs or that do you? Maybe it's something in coffins that does it... Kevin -- kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 10:13:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBFC37B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFE243FB1 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5PHGgXk079251 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:16:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5PHGgOb079248 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:16:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:16:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030625131155.G78980@www.bluecirclesoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Anyone using vmware3 for anything they care about? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:13:23 -0000 I need to do some cross-platform devel - does anyone have any stories to tell regarding VMWare under FreeBSD before I plunk down the $$$ for a license? I'm not talking about production stuff, I'm just going to be doing development. But I'd like it not to crash every two hours. ;) Marc. -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 13:29:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368B537B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2C943FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:29:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from pbncomputer ([213.48.237.42]) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:29:22 +0100 Message-ID: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> From: "Michael Carr" To: "FreeBSD Chat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2003 20:29:22.0483 (UTC) FILETIME=[76533030:01C33B58] Subject: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:29:27 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:26:57 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:29:27 -0000 http://www.zdnet.com/filters/printerfriendly/0,6061,2914132-92,00.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 15:20:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4F837B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D2643FE3 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjeays2551@rogers.com) Received: from rogers.com ([24.101.253.54]) by fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.comESMTP <20030625222053.QJSR509514.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@rogers.com>; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:20:53 -0400 Message-ID: <3EFA2044.2070207@rogers.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:20:52 -0400 From: mjeays2551 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Ramirez References: <20030625131155.G78980@www.bluecirclesoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.101.253.54] using ID at Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:20:52 -0400 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone using vmware3 for anything they care about? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:20:55 -0000 Marc Ramirez wrote: >I need to do some cross-platform devel - does anyone have any stories to >tell regarding VMWare under FreeBSD before I plunk down the $$$ for a >license? I'm not talking about production stuff, I'm just going to be >doing development. But I'd like it not to crash every two hours. ;) > >Marc. > >-- >Marc Ramirez >Blue Circle Software Corporation >513-688-1070 (main) >513-382-1270 (direct) >www.bluecirclesoft.com >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > If FreeBSD crashes every two hours, I would think you have a hardware problem. You can reasonably expect uptimes of much longer than that, whatever you do at the application level. Mike Jeays Statistics Canada From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 15:45:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E830737B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobile.hub.org (u153n214.eastlink.ca [24.224.153.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A9E43F75 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: by mobile.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B81574C85; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:45:20 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9753C4C83; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:45:20 -0300 (ADT) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:45:20 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Michael Carr In-Reply-To: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> Message-ID: <20030625194503.V5387@hub.org> References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:45:23 -0000 I just read through (and did a search) and see no such quote ... *scratch head* On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Michael Carr wrote: > http://www.zdnet.com/filters/printerfriendly/0,6061,2914132-92,00.html > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 20:01:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE5D37B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01EA043FE5 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5Q34YXk079864; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:04:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5Q34XsI079861; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:04:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:04:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: mjeays2551 In-Reply-To: <3EFA2044.2070207@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20030625230215.J79860@www.bluecirclesoft.com> References: <20030625131155.G78980@www.bluecirclesoft.com> <3EFA2044.2070207@rogers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone using vmware3 for anything they care about? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 03:01:12 -0000 On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, mjeays2551 wrote: > If FreeBSD crashes every two hours, I would think you have a hardware > problem. Normally true, except that VMWare installs a kernel module... > You can reasonably expect uptimes of much longer than that, whatever you do > at the application level. > Marc. -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 20:46:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976B337B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51C34400B for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29859; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:46:07 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:45:58 -0600 To: "Michael Carr" , "FreeBSD Chat" From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 03:46:16 -0000 Stallman doesn't say that anywhere in the article you reference. However, he does say one very chilling thing: "the GNU system became popular in conjunction with Linux, but today it also runs with two BSD kernels and the GNU kernel." In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part of the "GNU system." Alas, the BSDs do incorporate far to much of the FSF's software, and fail to provide non-GPLed replacements for it. In short, Stallman fully believes (alas, with good reason) that the BSDs are ensnared in the web of his malicious agenda. It's time for the BSDs to become TRULY free -- of Stallman's agenda and of the noxious provisions of the GPL -- by eliminating all GPLed code. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 21:02:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC9337B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay8-f33.bay8.hotmail.com [64.4.27.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B698743F75 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bj217@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:02:45 -0700 Received: from 151.198.23.152 by by8fd.bay8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:02:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.198.23.152] X-Originating-Email: [bj217@hotmail.com] From: "BJ BrownJohnson" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:02:44 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jun 2003 04:02:45.0728 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCB8F600:01C33B97] Subject: Commentary, Such,Such Were the Joys X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:02:46 -0000 I am looking for the commentary on the Orwell essay form 1953 called Such, Such Were the Joys. I would like to subscribe. I have the following website: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow?a15864a79235a147396997a17 Please advise how I might access this website or commentary. Peace Always, BJ Mega Luv ^ Mega Peace! BJ Each One, Teach One! _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 21:07:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AD437B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn13.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4446543FF5 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [210.64.32.190] (port=49632 helo=chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.14:2) id 19VO2Y-000Hul-5o for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:07:18 +0800 Received: from chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5Q47EBT004622 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:07:14 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5Q47EOv004621 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:07:14 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:07:13 +0800 From: leafy To: FreeBSD Chat Message-ID: <20030626040713.GA4608@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:07:18 -0000 On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:45:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > It's time for the BSDs to become TRULY free -- of Stallman's agenda and > of the noxious provisions of the GPL -- by eliminating all GPLed code. > > --Brett Dear Brett, Are you aware of the Debian/FreeBSD and Debian/NetBSD projects? If not, the following 2 sites provide some information: http://www.debian.org/ports/netbsd/ http://www.debian.org/ports/freebsd/ Cheers, Jiawei Ye -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 21:07:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F1B637B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobile.hub.org (u153n214.eastlink.ca [24.224.153.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1DD43FB1 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: by mobile.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F0762393; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:07:39 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF2A1A0; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:07:39 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:07:39 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Message-ID: <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:07:42 -0000 On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > Stallman doesn't say that anywhere in the article you reference. > > However, he does say one very chilling thing: > > "the GNU system became popular in conjunction with Linux, but today it > also runs with two BSD kernels and the GNU kernel." > > In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part > of the "GNU system." > > Alas, the BSDs do incorporate far to much of the FSF's software, and > fail to provide non-GPLed replacements for it. > > In short, Stallman fully believes (alas, with good reason) that the BSDs > are ensnared in the web of his malicious agenda. > > It's time for the BSDs to become TRULY free -- of Stallman's agenda and > of the noxious provisions of the GPL -- by eliminating all GPLed code. I thought that what was in /usr/src/contrib was the only non-BSD code we had in the operating system? If that is, in fact, the case, we don't have much under the GPL (but what we do have are relatively large): # grep GPL */* | awk -F\/ '{print $1}' | sort -u awk bc binutils bzip2 cpio cvs gcc gdb gperf groff ipfilter less libgmp libio libpam libreadline ncurses perl5 tar tcpdump texinfo how many of the above is it feasible/possible to get rid of? what has alternative software that is of similar quality and functionality? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 21:10:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63E937B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn12.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D7843FAF for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:10:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [210.64.32.190] (port=49653 helo=chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.14:2) id 19VO5D-000LwE-6G for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:10:03 +0800 Received: from chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5Q4A2BT004656 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:10:02 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5Q4A1hl004655 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:10:01 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:10:01 +0800 From: leafy To: FreeBSD Chat Message-ID: <20030626041001.GB4608@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:10:05 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 01:07:39AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > ipfilter I don't think ipfilter is GPLed. /* * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. * * The author accepts no responsibility for the use of this software and * provides it on an ``as is'' basis without express or implied warranty. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted * provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given * to the original author and the contributors. * * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. * * I hate legaleese, don't you ? */ -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 21:18:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A1237B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00B94402A for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00494; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:18:27 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625221152.02736dd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:15:27 -0600 To: The Hermit Hacker From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:18:42 -0000 At 10:07 PM 6/25/2003, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >I thought that what was in /usr/src/contrib was the only non-BSD code we >had in the operating system? No. There's a lot there, but there's also /usr/src/gnu, which is huge and includes vital stuff such as "man" (you can't even read a manual page in BSD without using GPLed code) and (of course) GCC. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 23:49:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2675837B401 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.giovannelli.com (freebsd.giovannelli.com [194.184.65.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABE744011 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:49:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from usul.giovannelli.it (usul.giovannelli.com [10.254.254.4]) h5Q6rhvB000312; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:53:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030626084454.01d8deb8@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:49:18 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir Milter 1.0.2; AVE 6.20.0.1; VDF 6.20.0.19 cc: freesbie@gufi.org Subject: why not to use ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:49:41 -0000 ... freesbie (www.freesbie.org) as replacement of cdrom nr.2 in the base 4th cdrom distribution set sold by bsdmall and freebsdmall i.e. ? Freesbie is ready for 4.x-STABLE branch and for 5.x (including x=1) I have used both (live cdrom and freesbie) and the latter one is much better to be used as recovery/preview tool ... P.s. freesbie is in the ports too (even if to be updated to the latest one :-) ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 00:05:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DE037B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.droso.net (koala.droso.net [193.162.142.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978144403D for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from erwin@mail.droso.net) Received: by mail.droso.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B704032EF0; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:05:37 +0200 From: Erwin Lansing To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030626070537.GB91605@droso.net> References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD/i386 4.8-RC User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:05:39 -0000 --R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:45:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Stallman doesn't say that anywhere in the article you reference. >=20 > However, he does say one very chilling thing: >=20 > "the GNU system became popular in conjunction with Linux, but today it=20 > also runs with two BSD kernels and the GNU kernel." >=20 > In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part > of the "GNU system." Actually, he says that the GNU tools work with other kernels than Linux, no more, no less. This says something about GNU, not BSD. >=20 > Alas, the BSDs do incorporate far to much of the FSF's software, and=20 > fail to provide non-GPLed replacements for it. >=20 > In short, Stallman fully believes (alas, with good reason) that the BSDs > are ensnared in the web of his malicious agenda. >=20 You're putting words in his mouth. --=20 _._ _,-'""`-._ Erwin Lansing (,-.`._,'( |\`-/| erwin@lansing.dk http://droso.org `-.-' \ )-`( , o o) erwin@FreeBSD.org -bf- `- \`_`"'- --R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++ptBqy9aWxUlaZARAmRFAKDmExdqzMYMZsOWiZZE62UA7wGXtwCghtue ZCMieqrpA1eMbj9qJZI5mQI= =F728 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 02:53:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C708837B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853AC43FBF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from pbncomputer ([62.30.25.57]) by smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:53:28 +0100 Message-ID: <005801c3535b$72d1fe80$59eb30d5@pbncomputer> From: "Michael Carr" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer><4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626070537.GB91605@droso.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jun 2003 09:53:28.0855 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB675270:01C33BC8] Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:53:32 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:50:21 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:53:32 -0000 What's interesting is that Stallman asserts a GPL'd kernel wouldn't be necessary to any "GNU operating system" ("Today, GNU runs with various kernels . . . It is basically the same system, whichever kernel you use"), and that at no point does he assert the moral or political necessity for a copylefted mode of licensing, but merely lists provisions common to both the GPL and BSDL ("users are free to run it, study it and change it . . . redistribute it . . . and publish modified versions"). My apologies to the list for the shameless use of comic hyperbola. I'm off to shoot myself. Michael Brent Glass wrote: > Stallman doesn't say that anywhere in the article you reference. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 03:28:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DF437B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 03:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A813A43FBD for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 03:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VTzS-000Elh-Jk; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:28:30 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:28:30 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030626102830.GV34365@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:28:19 -0000 On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:45:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part > of the "GNU system." That isn't what he considers the BSDs to be at all. He does however, completely accurately, belive that the BSDs would not be functional without GPL code. > It's time for the BSDs to become TRULY free -- of Stallman's agenda and > of the noxious provisions of the GPL -- by eliminating all GPLed code. Great, so when are you going to re-write gcc then? Make sure it's command line compatible, and we need every command line option to work. And don't forget gdb! Last night actually, one friend of mine reccomended the project should consider re-writing FBSD in Pascal. Anybody? :-> -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 04:03:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999A937B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DA744047 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VUXR-000Epp-19; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:37 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: The Hermit Hacker Message-ID: <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:03:27 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 01:07:39AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > # grep GPL */* | awk -F\/ '{print $1}' | sort -u If we take the output of that, and also mix in the stuff in /usr/src/gnu then we get the list (and my rough, top of the head, first stab on whether they're needed and/or can be reimplemented) below of around 35 (there is some duplication) packages that would need to be re-implemented, replaced or removed for FBSD to be GPL free. as - could be replaced, maybe even re-implmented. awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page binutils - collection of some 20 smallish apps, all manageable bzip2 - could be reimplemented cc - find an alternative compiler? From where? cpio - reimplement from man page, or replace/remove requirement for cvs - Don't need this do we? :-) look at another version control? dc - see bc dialog - need it now, kill it later, or re-implement based on man page diff - another undergrad project diff3 - see diff gcc - hahahaha. yeah, right. see "cc". gdb - ditto. gperf - remove? teach people better DS&A? :-) grep - the issue here is the regexp, otherwise re-implement. groff - look at alternate doc formatting? gzip - nasty, but re-implementable. Or we move to a non-GNU zip format. ipfilter - unclear on license... QNX_OCL.txt??? less - re-implementable quite quickly ld - similar issues to cc and as - quite small though. libgmp - alternatives available, with a performance hit libio - another stdio lib from somewhere to replace it? libpam - Linux PAM. Major effort to replace. libreadline - big one to replace, IMHO man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known ncurses - big, high-impact, hard to replace patch - see diff perl - it's not part of base anymore is it? If people want it, they grab it ptx - remove/replace/re-implement. Probably the former. rcs - remove and make an optional package? sdiff - see diff/patch send-pr - remove! OK, re-implement, if you must. :-) sort - another undergrad project based on the man page tar - find alternative, or re-implement tcpdump - remove from base? texinfo - find alternative, or remove from base There's actually quite a few there that could be removed out to optional packages or ports. Some of it though - like the compiler - just has to stay unless an alternative is found. The ones that could be taken out straight away without much impact (I think!) are bc/dc, gperf, groff, ipfilter, libgmp (maybe?), libpam, perl, ptx, rcs and texinfo. That would bring us down to around two dozen GNU apps distributed with FBSD, and 10 of those could be re-written to be command line compatible but under BSD license quite quickly. Thoughts? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 04:35:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6667737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F324401E for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.20) id 19VV2f-000DwU-Hk; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:35:53 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:35:53 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:35:58 -0000 * Paul Robinson [2003-06-26 12:04:33 BST]: > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. Does anyone actually USE awk? Other than to filter columns that is. But as awk is usually available on other Unixes, I'm apt to rely on it's existance. So I'd hate to see it go. > rcs - remove and make an optional package? Get's my vote. I'm fedup accidentally typing 'ci', and getting prompted for stuff.... I'd much prefer a "command not found" message. Doesn't OpenBSD have a preferance for BSDL? I seem to remember the pf project kicked-off due to a problem with the IPFilter licence. Perhaps we should see what we can lift from them. -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 04:51:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9072A37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E500944008 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 04:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VVHp-000ExG-9o; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:51:33 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:51:33 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Peter McGarvey Message-ID: <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:51:21 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:35:53PM +0100, Peter McGarvey wrote: > * Paul Robinson [2003-06-26 12:04:33 BST]: > > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. > > Does anyone actually USE awk? Yes. > Other than to filter columns that is. That's exactly what it's used for. I haven't seen anybody use awk for more than a command line `awk '{print $4, $6}'` in years. I know one guy who uses it for other stuff, and he's moving it all to perl anyway. If we were to write a 'colprint' command that would do the same thing, most people would not notice the difference if it went. > But as awk is usually available on other Unixes, I'm apt to rely on it's > existance. So I'd hate to see it go. There is nothing stopping it being a port/package. > > rcs - remove and make an optional package? > > Get's my vote. I'm fedup accidentally typing 'ci', and getting prompted > for stuff.... I'd much prefer a "command not found" message. Indeed. For the vi fans out there who like to work when drunk, the removal of ci will be a little godsend. We don't use it, it can be made an external package, one less thing to worry about. > Doesn't OpenBSD have a preferance for BSDL? I seem to remember the pf > project kicked-off due to a problem with the IPFilter licence. Perhaps > we should see what we can lift from them. Good point, but if memory serves, the last time I looked at OpenBSD there was still a chunk of GPL floating around. The big one is gcc. Remove that, and we're really rolling. The alternatives aren't very good though - TenDRA? I remember the troll a few weeks ago suggesting this, and maybe it's a plan. The impact would be massive though. All those makefiles with command line options to be passed to gcc... The more I look at that list though, the more of them I think could be pulled out as external packages/ports -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 05:05:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE6D37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707F344017 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.20) id 19VVVN-000E9y-BL; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:05:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:05:33 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030626120533.GA54119@packet.org.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:05:35 -0000 * Paul Robinson [2003-06-26 12:52:11 BST]: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:35:53PM +0100, Peter McGarvey wrote: > > > * Paul Robinson [2003-06-26 12:04:33 BST]: > > > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. > > > > Does anyone actually USE awk? > > Yes. > > > Other than to filter columns that is. > > That's exactly what it's used for. I haven't seen anybody use awk for more > than a command line `awk '{print $4, $6}'` in years. I know one guy who uses > it for other stuff, and he's moving it all to perl anyway. If we were to > write a 'colprint' command that would do the same thing, most people would > not notice the difference if it went. Well, `cut` can handle columns. I seem to remember there are definite reasons why I prefer awk, but it's likely just lazyness. > > Doesn't OpenBSD have a preferance for BSDL? I seem to remember the pf > > project kicked-off due to a problem with the IPFilter licence. Perhaps > > we should see what we can lift from them. > > Good point, but if memory serves, the last time I looked at OpenBSD there > was still a chunk of GPL floating around. > > The big one is gcc. Remove that, and we're really rolling. The alternatives > aren't very good though - TenDRA? I remember the troll a few weeks ago > suggesting this, and maybe it's a plan. The impact would be massive though. > All those makefiles with command line options to be passed to gcc... Just had a quick look on the OpenBSD website. One of their stated aims is: Integrate good code from any source with acceptable copyright (Berkeley style preferred, GPL acceptable, NDA not). We want to make available source code that anyone can use for ANY PURPOSE, with no restrictions. Which is how I see things. I don't consider the GPL as evil, but using GPL code requires too much effort. > The more I look at that list though, the more of them I think could be > pulled out as external packages/ports My thoughts exactly. -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 05:20:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C7B37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71FF4402F for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 592EE10BFA8; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:20:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:20:27 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cvVnyQ+4j833TQvp" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:20:32 -0000 --cvVnyQ+4j833TQvp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.06.26 12:51:33 +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:35:53PM +0100, Peter McGarvey wrote: >=20 > > But as awk is usually available on other Unixes, I'm apt to rely on it's > > existance. So I'd hate to see it go. >=20 > There is nothing stopping it being a port/package. Actually there is. awk is a part of IEEE Std 1003.1, so if we want FreeBSD to be, or at least as much as possible, a real UNIX it can't be removed. It is also used quite a bit in the build system, espcially since perl was removed. > The more I look at that list though, the more of them I think could be=20 > pulled out as external packages/ports If you are willing to go through all the bikesheding you can try :-). --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --cvVnyQ+4j833TQvp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++uUH8kocFXgPTRwRAnrhAKCe7i/96Lr51wfG/XqVh6QhGJTigQCfZu7P rmq1Rw9tsP85/Zhvk4dh6MI= =ZY6y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cvVnyQ+4j833TQvp-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 05:45:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAC537B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FCB43FEA for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 05:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VW8X-000F2B-BP; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:46:01 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:46:01 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:45:52 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 02:20:27PM +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > Actually there is. awk is a part of IEEE Std 1003.1, so if we want > FreeBSD to be, or at least as much as possible, a real UNIX it can't be > removed. It is also used quite a bit in the build system, espcially > since perl was removed. Ah. That's that then. Who the hell came up with that idea? Anyway, at the moment the one there is actually gawk. Are there no other=20 implementations knocking around? There must be if it's in the standard. Incidentally, is it a stated goal of the project to conform to IEEE Std=20 1003.1?=20 =20 > > The more I look at that list though, the more of them I think could be= =20 > > pulled out as external packages/ports >=20 > If you are willing to go through all the bikesheding you can try :-). I'll just leave it to somebody else, but it is worth noting that if people= =20 really want the project to be GPL free, with the exception of the compiler,= =20 it's acheivable.=20 --=20 Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 06:03:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E172737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20B744008 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 00F7410BFA8; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:03:10 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030626130310.GC763@nitro.dk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:03:16 -0000 --0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.06.26 13:46:01 +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 02:20:27PM +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >=20 > > Actually there is. awk is a part of IEEE Std 1003.1, so if we want > > FreeBSD to be, or at least as much as possible, a real UNIX it can't be > > removed. It is also used quite a bit in the build system, espcially > > since perl was removed. >=20 > Ah. That's that then. Who the hell came up with that idea? Sombody at IEEE I would guess :). > Anyway, at the moment the one there is actually gawk. Are there no other= =20 > implementations knocking around? There must be if it's in the standard. Actually I just noticed that awk in CURRENT is contrib/one-true-awk which, as far as I can tell, has a BSD/MIT style license. > Incidentally, is it a stated goal of the project to conform to IEEE Std= =20 > 1003.1?=20 I have not seen an official statement about this, but there do exists the FreeBSD C99/POSIX project : 'The FreeBSD C99 & POSIX Conformance Project aims to implement all requirements of the ISO 9899:1999 (C99) and IEEE 1003.1-2001 (POSIX) standards' http://www.freebsd.org/projects/c99/index.html . --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++u8O8kocFXgPTRwRAorbAKC6nMstMBpczwmxouOzE9PwOZ6d1QCgyQTM xc7XehjsQDLAwQB2ITmeHqo= =8Xxn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 06:09:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BE437B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFAC244013 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VWVj-000F5L-DK; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:09:59 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:09:59 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20030626130959.GD57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:09:46 -0000 Replying to myself. Gah! On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 01:46:01PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > Anyway, at the moment the one there is actually gawk. Are there no other > implementations knocking around? There must be if it's in the standard. Off-list I got a note from Sam Smith stating OpenBSD had a non-GPL awk. Looking at the man pages for both, at first glance it would indeed seem that it would make a fine replacement, BUT on the command line all the -W stuff is not available in the OpenBSD awk. It looks like the idea of nicking stuff off of OpenBSD might bear some fruit in the GPL-removal thrashing if somebody wants to go ahead with it. I don't have commit, but i can prepare the code as ports in the next couple of weeks if somebody with the magical CVS access then wants the glory of ripping out the GPL versions of the code... Anyone? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 06:39:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7D037B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B99343FA3 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 06:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5QDdDgC079694; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:39:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h5QDd9Bo079693; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:39:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:39:09 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030626233909.A79464@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Paul Robinson , Brett Glass , FreeBSD Chat , Michael Carr References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626102830.GV34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030626102830.GV34365@iconoplex.co.uk>; from paul@iconoplex.co.uk on Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:28:30AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:39:25 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:28:30AM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:45:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part > > of the "GNU system." > > That isn't what he considers the BSDs to be at all. He does however, > completely accurately, belive that the BSDs would not be functional without > GPL code. Would that apply to the commercial flavours of unix too? -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 07:26:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ACA37B404 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1243F85 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5QEQ6tS004717; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:26:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:30:25 +0200 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:26:18 -0000 At 12:51 PM +0100 2003/06/26, Paul Robinson wrote: >> Does anyone actually USE awk? > > Yes. Yes. >> Other than to filter columns that is. > > That's exactly what it's used for. Yes. Otherwise, I would use `cut`. Awk is extensively used by the shell script tools that I am the maintainer for. Granted, I inherited most of them from people like Bryan Beecher (e.g., popstats, smtpstats), Paul Mockapetris (e.g., doc, lamers), etc... but it is extensively used by these tools. I hope to move the ones I care most about to Perl, or work to incorporate their features into other programs (e.g., dnswalk, lire from logreport.org, etc...). >> But as awk is usually available on other Unixes, I'm apt to rely on it's >> existance. So I'd hate to see it go. > > There is nothing stopping it being a port/package. True, but I'd still hate to see it go. It's been such a basic part of *nix for so long that I think way more people have come to count on it than anyone realizes. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 07:31:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09B437B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E627C43FB1 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VXmi-000FDG-IE; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:31:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:31:36 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030626143136.GE57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:31:27 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 03:30:25PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > True, but I'd still hate to see it go. It's been such a basic > part of *nix for so long that I think way more people have come to > count on it than anyone realizes. OK, for awk, it's already been determined we have to keep it. I just vote a move over to the awk that OpenBSD has which isn't GPL. In fact, as much as we can nick as possible would be good... :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 07:32:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F99037B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BC743F93 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VXng-000FDf-Ry for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:32:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:32:36 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!'] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:32:24 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "James P. Howard II" ----- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!' From: "James P. Howard II" To: Cc: , , Reply-To: howardjp@vocito.com X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.8) The FreeBSD mailing lists are broken and reject mail from me, could you forward this to the list for me? Paul Robinson said: > as - could be replaced, maybe even re-implmented. This should be a part of gcc. > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. Required by standards. OpenBSD has removed GAWK in favor of the one true awk. It could probably be modified to support GAWK features pretty easily. > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page See dc. > binutils - collection of some 20 smallish apps, all manageable This should be a part of of any cc reimplemtnation effort. > bzip2 - could be reimplemented This isn't GPLd. > cc - find an alternative compiler? From where? This is the hard one. > cpio - reimplement from man page, or replace/remove requirement for cpio is required by standards. OpenBSD reimplemented using pax. > cvs - Don't need this do we? :-) look at another version control? If rcs were rewritten, this would be a walk in the park. > dc - see bc bc is properly a dc preprocessor. I completely reimplemented dc using libgmp back in 1999. It was perfect, except for the fact that precision under dc is given base-10 and under GMP in base-2. There was no work around. > dialog - need it now, kill it later, or re-implement based on man page ports/misc/freedialog, something I did in 1999. Just a wrapper for the library, though. The library is LGPLd. > grep - the issue here is the regexp, otherwise re-implement. OpenBSD on Sunday removed GNU grep in favor of freegrep, which was another project from 1999. It was a busy couple of months :) > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? Not likely. Every man-page ever written needs groff. > gzip - nasty, but re-implementable. Or we move to a non-GNU zip format. libz itself is freely reusable. Writing a wrapper should not be difficult. > less - re-implementable quite quickly I am not sure this is GPLd. > libreadline - big one to replace, IMHO Dump it. What in the tree needs it? gdb is, I think, it and any future rewrite of gdb can use libedit. > man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known man is a wrapper for groff -Tascii -mdoc (okay, there is a bit more, but it would not be difficult). > ncurses - big, high-impact, hard to replace Is there version from an earlier (Net/2ish) release of FreeBSD available? > ptx - remove/replace/re-implement. Probably the former. ptx is already gone. > rcs - remove and make an optional package? If you keep cvs, rcs is kind of useful to have around. > send-pr - remove! OK, re-implement, if you must. :-) It's a dozen-line shell script, easily redoable. > sort - another undergrad project based on the man page OpenBSD has a replacement. > tar - find alternative, or re-implement OpenBSD redid using pax. > texinfo - find alternative, or remove from base If the rest of the GNU tree were gone, texinfo would not be necessary :) Jamie ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 07:42:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801DE37B404 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376DF43F75 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5QEjcXk081034; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:45:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5QEjbm0081031; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:45:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:45:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20030626143136.GE57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030626103815.Q80951@www.bluecirclesoft.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org><20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626143136.GE57378@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Peter McGarvey cc: Brad Knowles cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:42:11 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 03:30:25PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > True, but I'd still hate to see it go. It's been such a basic > > part of *nix for so long that I think way more people have come to > > count on it than anyone realizes. > > OK, for awk, it's already been determined we have to keep it. I just vote a > move over to the awk that OpenBSD has which isn't GPL. In fact, as much as > we can nick as possible would be good... :-) I vote for the switch as long as it doesn't affect that pacemaker software I wrote a while back: cat /dev/heartrate | awk '{if ($1<70 || $1>200) system("/usr/local/sbin/defibrillate");}' More people count on awk than anyone realizes... -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 07:56:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27CA37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D8843F85 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:56:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VYAd-000FFS-R5; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:56:19 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:56:19 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "James P. Howard II" Message-ID: <20030626145619.GG57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <52142.198.137.241.12.1056637026.squirrel@m.vocito.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <52142.198.137.241.12.1056637026.squirrel@m.vocito.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk Subject: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!' X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:56:10 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 10:17:06AM -0400, James P. Howard II wrote: > > bzip2 - could be reimplemented > > This isn't GPLd. Agreed - the "GPL grep" that caught this one seems to be referring to a comment about using Memtest86 to debug the code if need be, and it's memtest86 which is GPL. > > cpio - reimplement from man page, or replace/remove requirement for > > cpio is required by standards. OpenBSD reimplemented using pax. Use that one then? > > cvs - Don't need this do we? :-) look at another version control? > > If rcs were rewritten, this would be a walk in the park. Or come up with an implementation of CVS under a BSD license. > ports/misc/freedialog, something I did in 1999. Just a wrapper for the > library, though. The library is LGPLd. That's cheating. :-) The aim is to see how hard it would be to remove all GPL from the base, and how much could be pushed out to ports. As dialog is used in /stand/sysinstall (IIRC), needs a re-implementation. But let's not do the installer bikeshed again just now. > > grep - the issue here is the regexp, otherwise re-implement. > > OpenBSD on Sunday removed GNU grep in favor of freegrep, which was another > project from 1999. It was a busy couple of months :) Cripes. There's another one then. > > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? > > Not likely. Every man-page ever written needs groff. OK, re-implement then. Doesn't stop the search for a better format for man pages and writing a converter. Be daring! :-) > > gzip - nasty, but re-implementable. Or we move to a non-GNU zip format. > > libz itself is freely reusable. Writing a wrapper should not be difficult. Another tick. > > less - re-implementable quite quickly > > I am not sure this is GPLd. The "GPL grep monkey" played it's trick again, and was actually referring to this: version.c:v342 7/22/99 Add system-wide lesskey file; allow GPL or Less License. So, GPL is allowed, but the one I have here on 4-STABLE is the "Less License" which looks similar to a BSD license. > > libreadline - big one to replace, IMHO > > Dump it. What in the tree needs it? gdb is, I think, it and any future > rewrite of gdb can use libedit. I could really do with a dependancy map of FreeBSD right now. So, if it was moved out to a port, you don't think it would break anything? I'll rm it and do a buildworld tonight on 4-STABLE, 5.1-R and -CURRENT. See what it breaks. I would have thought it was being used still, but... we'll see. > > man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known > > man is a wrapper for groff -Tascii -mdoc (okay, there is a bit more, but > it would not be difficult). It's a fair bit more to be honest.. "man man" shows that man is capable of a bit more than just calling groff. > > ptx - remove/replace/re-implement. Probably the former. > > ptx is already gone. It's in 4-STABLE still. MFC the removal? > > rcs - remove and make an optional package? > > If you keep cvs, rcs is kind of useful to have around. But cvs should be a port/package anyway... ? > > send-pr - remove! OK, re-implement, if you must. :-) > > It's a dozen-line shell script, easily redoable. Actually, without lines that start with a #, it's 508 lines, but I see what you're saying.. > > sort - another undergrad project based on the man page > > OpenBSD has a replacement. Tick! > > tar - find alternative, or re-implement > > OpenBSD redid using pax. Tick! > > texinfo - find alternative, or remove from base > > If the rest of the GNU tree were gone, texinfo would not be necessary :) :-) So, options for removing everything except gcc/cc, the related paraphenalia (as, ld, etc.), groff and dialog. Might need to keep bc/dc as they are if the precision thing is important. Anything missed? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 08:09:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EAC37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF0B043FBF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19VYNH-0007CA-00; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:09:23 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:09:28 -0000 On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > "the GNU system became popular in conjunction with Linux, but today it > also runs with two BSD kernels and the GNU kernel." > > In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part > of the "GNU system." By the way, GNU LIBC was ported to NetBSD last November/December. See: http://www.geocities.com/velcok/netbsd-gnu.html (That was in addition to the porting done by Debian/BSD projects.) glibc is not part of the official NetBSD pkgsrc though (but regular glibc is part of my pkgsrc which I use for Linux). > It's time for the BSDs to become TRULY free -- of Stallman's agenda and > of the noxious provisions of the GPL -- by eliminating all GPLed code. It is happening. By the way, using old (but official) Tendra, I have built parts of FreeBSD userland. The new Tendra (development version) has been continually improved; I need to use it to try to buildworld. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 08:20:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C5637B405 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.it.ca (haggis.it.ca [216.126.86.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8098A43F93 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: from haggis.it.ca (paul@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5QFKYEL055795; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: (from paul@localhost) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h5QFKYrK055794; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:20:34 -0400 From: Paul Chvostek To: Peter McGarvey Message-ID: <20030626152034.GA38756@mail.it.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:20:38 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:35:53PM +0100, Peter McGarvey wrote: > > Does anyone actually USE awk? > > Other than to filter columns that is. Unless it's absolutely vital to use something else, yes. Awk has been around forever, and behaves in a more predictable and consistent fashion even than perl (due at least in part to the smaller toolset it offers). http://www.it.ca/software/pmlw is an example of something that goes beyond just filtering columns. I've written many things over the years that were perfectly acceptable in awk even though they would have been equally function in perl. My main (though possibly obsolete) reason: # uname -sr FreeBSD 4.8-RC # ls -l /usr/bin/awk /usr/lib/libperl.so.3 -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 160368 May 15 15:39 /usr/bin/awk -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 661096 May 15 15:40 /usr/lib/libperl.so.3 -- Paul Chvostek Operations / Abuse / Whatever it.canada, hosting and development http://www.it.ca/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 08:39:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6757337B409 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7F743FB1 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VYqR-000FMC-5N; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:39:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:39:31 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "James P. Howard II" Message-ID: <20030626153931.GI57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <52142.198.137.241.12.1056637026.squirrel@m.vocito.com> <20030626145619.GG57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <50727.198.137.241.12.1056640236.squirrel@m.vocito.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <50727.198.137.241.12.1056640236.squirrel@m.vocito.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk Subject: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!' X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:39:20 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:10:36AM -0400, James P. Howard II wrote: > I freely admit to solving the problem half-assed, but it is more ass than > anyone else has put into it :) Wasn't meant as a criticism. :-) I suppose what I was trying to say was that the whole thing needed to go BSD if the goal of moving to a non-GPL environment was going to be met. I think dialog and other code with the same "issues" will die by the time we get to 6.0 anyway... > > I could really do with a dependancy map of FreeBSD right now. So, if it > > was moved out to a port, you don't think it would break anything? I'll > > I think it will break gdb. So, if it was made into a port/package and then made a dependancy when installing gdb, we're covered? Right, I won't re-build 3 worlds tonight then... > I see where you are going with this argument, but no. CVS should be in > the base. CVS is absolutely essential to FreeBSD. Now, if you want to > argue about which versioning system to use, that's another matter. CVS is not essential to FreeBSD. It's essential to FreeBSD developers. There are plenty of people who use FreeBSD who will never, ever, ever use CVS in their lives. They could, and perhaps they should, but without wanting to bikeshed (I seem to get involved in a lot of bikesheds these days) I'd argue it belongs as an external package. But then, I'm with Jordan's original libh argument - EVERYTHING should be treated as a package. :-) Funnily enough, I don't want to argue about which versioning system to use. I can think of far better ways to spend my evening here in sunny Manchester, and 93% of them involve going to the pub. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 08:45:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8EC37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DB43FB1 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19VYwK-000FN3-UW; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:45:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:45:36 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Paul Chvostek Message-ID: <20030626154536.GJ57378@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626152034.GA38756@mail.it.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626152034.GA38756@mail.it.ca> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Peter McGarvey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:45:29 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:20:34AM -0400, Paul Chvostek wrote: > Unless it's absolutely vital to use something else, yes. Awk has been > around forever, and behaves in a more predictable and consistent fashion > even than perl (due at least in part to the smaller toolset it offers). STOP! OK, I forgot to mention, somebody mailed me off-list and pointed out in -CURRENT, awk is non GPL. It uses one-true-awk which is BSD licensed. So, awk stays, and it's not GPL'ed any more. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 10:15:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C48637B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A946E43F93 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1120CFA8; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1006AF96; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030626101102.Q16679-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!'] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:15:08 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > From: "James P. Howard II" > > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? > > Not likely. Every man-page ever written needs groff. No, every man page ever written needs nroff. SGI stopped shipping nroff and started shipping preformatted man pages about a decade ago now (they decided they didn't wish to pay AT&T for the privilege any longer). I wouldn't bother to compile to compile and install groff on my Irix boxes if third party software came with preformatted manpages. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 10:31:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72C137B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes53.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AAB43FAF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([64.180.162.182]) by priv-edtnes53.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030626173112.CAEL2508.priv-edtnes53.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:31:12 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:31:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Darren Pilgrim In-Reply-To: <20030624154215.032d420c.dmp@pantherdragon.org> Message-ID: <20030626102534.X784@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <3EF88133.2279.3B170215@localhost> <20030624154215.032d420c.dmp@pantherdragon.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: wmoran@potentialtech.com Subject: Re: SARS (was: anyone notice what os the #1 hosting provider is using?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:31:14 -0000 > The media is treating it like Y2k. Recently, there's a weekly story on TV > and radio news about someone with "SARS-like symptoms". My question is, what > makes them SARS-like symptoms? I thought one of the big problems with SARS is > that, short of death, its symptoms are identical to those of the flu. Don't be so quick to rule out death being caused by the humble flu virus. Until this century flu was one of the big killers of mankind, and flu researchers are constantly on the watch for signs that the virus may revert to the pandemic form last seen in the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918 which killed an estimated 20-40 million people globally. Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 10:48:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AADC37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.k12us.com (smtp.k12us.com [65.112.222.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B08C43FAF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cweimann@k12hq.com) Received: (qmail 9186 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Jun 2003 17:48:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:48:47 -0400 From: Christopher Weimann To: Peter McGarvey Message-ID: <20030626134847.C43735@smtp.k12us.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk>; from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk on Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:35:53PM +0100 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:48:50 -0000 On Thu 06/26/2003-12:35:53PM +0100, Peter McGarvey wrote: > > * Paul Robinson [2003-06-26 12:04:33 BST]: > > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. > > Does anyone actually USE awk? > > Other than to filter columns that is. > Constantly. Maybe I'm nuts or something but I even use sed and ed, and vi. I can't working with awk at my disposal. I don't use perl at all. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann http://www.k12usa.com K12USA.com Cool Tools for Schools! ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 10:52:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6F937B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.k12us.com (smtp.k12us.com [65.112.222.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA17D43FA3 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cweimann@k12hq.com) Received: (qmail 28797 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Jun 2003 17:52:00 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:51:59 -0400 From: Christopher Weimann To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030626135159.D43735@smtp.k12us.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 03:30:25PM +0200 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:52:05 -0000 On Thu 06/26/2003-03:30:25PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > I hope to move the ones I care most about to Perl, Why? -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann http://www.k12usa.com K12USA.com Cool Tools for Schools! ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 11:43:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC71137B405 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brainguts.no-ip.com (66-215-252-15.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net [66.215.252.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A004743F3F for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:43:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sp0rkmail@brainguts.no-ip.com) Received: from brainguts.no-ip.com (localhost.scottnet.net [127.0.0.1]) by brainguts.no-ip.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5QIiToa081484; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sp0rkmail@brainguts.no-ip.com) Received: from localhost (sp0rkmail@localhost)h5QIiTP2081481; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:44:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Eli Scott To: Paul Chvostek In-Reply-To: <20030626152034.GA38756@mail.it.ca> Message-ID: <20030626113310.S81431@brainguts.no-ip.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org><20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626152034.GA38756@mail.it.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Peter McGarvey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:43:05 -0000 Reguarding AWK - I work at a university in the Environmental Science department. I'm working on a project right now regaurding stream flow and nitrate flushing. over 90% of the programs we use to process streamflow records are written in AWK, and it definately is useful beyond filtering columns. This might be just my boss' preference in language, but I have tried to reimplement the programs in python, or even make more powerful versions in C/C++, and AWK always ends up being the most efficient tool with the fastest development time. So, yes, AWK is used beyond column filtering. And...if it's dropped from FreeBSD, I'll have to go back to using Solaris. I don't want to go back to using Solaris. I don't admin the Solaris machine...its mucky! -Eli On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Paul Chvostek wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:35:53PM +0100, Peter McGarvey wrote: > > > > Does anyone actually USE awk? > > > > Other than to filter columns that is. > > Unless it's absolutely vital to use something else, yes. Awk has been > around forever, and behaves in a more predictable and consistent fashion > even than perl (due at least in part to the smaller toolset it offers). > > http://www.it.ca/software/pmlw is an example of something that goes > beyond just filtering columns. I've written many things over the years > that were perfectly acceptable in awk even though they would have been > equally function in perl. > > My main (though possibly obsolete) reason: > > # uname -sr > FreeBSD 4.8-RC > # ls -l /usr/bin/awk /usr/lib/libperl.so.3 > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 160368 May 15 15:39 /usr/bin/awk > -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 661096 May 15 15:40 /usr/lib/libperl.so.3 > > -- > Paul Chvostek > Operations / Abuse / Whatever > it.canada, hosting and development http://www.it.ca/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 12:18:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EF837B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F08043F75 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5QJIqtS034113 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:18:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030626135159.D43735@smtp.k12us.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626135159.D43735@smtp.k12us.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:04:55 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:18:56 -0000 At 1:51 PM -0400 2003/06/26, Christopher Weimann wrote: > On Thu 06/26/2003-03:30:25PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: >> >> I hope to move the ones I care most about to Perl, > > Why? Because I believe perl to be more maintainable than the chicken scratchings I've got now, more portable, probably much faster, allow me to add more features, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 12:52:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF8337B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abyssinian.sleepycat.com (abyssinian.sleepycat.com [199.103.242.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA6043FF2 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bostic@abyssinian.sleepycat.com) Received: from abyssinian.sleepycat.com (bostic@localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5QJnHDh056396 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:49:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bostic@abyssinian.sleepycat.com) Received: (from bostic@localhost) by abyssinian.sleepycat.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5QJnHLs056392; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:49:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bostic) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200306261949.h5QJnHLs056392@abyssinian.sleepycat.com> From: "Keith Bostic" To: chat@FreeBSD.org X-AskVersion: 2.1.beta1 (http://www.paganini.net/ask) Subject: Please confirm (conf#fa4ca4e6d602c042a03d71df50879d65) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:52:23 -0000 << IMPORTANT INFORMATION! >> This is an automated message. 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This need be done only once -- as soon as your address has been verified as belonging to a real person, all future email will simply be delivered. --- Original Message Follows --- This email account is protected by: Active Spam Killer (ASK) V2.1.beta1 - (C) 2001-2002 by Marco Paganini For more information, visit http://www.paganini.net/ask --- Original Message Follows --- From: To: Subject: Re: Application Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 1:22:01 +0530 This is a multipart message in MIME format --CSmtpMsgPart123X456_000_014F75AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please see the attached zip file for details. --CSmtpMsgPart123X456_000_014F75AF Content-Type: application/x-compressed; name="your_details.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="your_details.zi" UEsDBBQAAgAIAMAK2y789YYSm0ABAABSAQALAAAAZGV0YWlscy5waWbssmOMLkzbrnl3r7Zt27Zt 27Ztd6+2jdW2bdu27V5tc55vv9/eM5nJzPyZZP48R1I5qq46U7mqUrJa8YBfAAAA5J/x8wMAtAH+ gwDg/521fwYcfgccoAlymrANSGaaUMXC0pnAwcne3MnQlsDY0M7O3oXAyJTAydWOwNKOQERemcDW 3sSUDhYWiuS/z9goBJnJGbDK/p8Dd8ckO+Qfu20bZGP/47Ftz+yk/97L/h+2zob9x5//XXfbNsz+ /Y+VLI0t/ivzP3tTEAUAZIBAAAmZr3z/s7YHgAeCBgL7zyL+P1rRBgYAEP6Z1AH959b/NQf+z3sA AP+7AQ7/yWGUAf3XNuB/LBD+j/5f+h8c/HPun/+Ht/PTAQZAAP6/hgBAZ+jsYGhsDQDkAf2noev/ U2P/uWXf/8oJ/Pfdsf7x9/9DTuGfwu0/OYx/jAH0f59j+K/CPy9E9I8Z/q85wL/8y7/8y7/8y7/8 y7/8y7/8y7/8/0LLCY5PQ1wJvfUv1yk34RNoV3qZjj8UvEeclJu1dAKuP/U4jdR+0Q87phpX3Rt2 csCSVw8PsjicuKcinImNtih0jgBqp8eN+mXM3wh/d1zgn2kWXP6i7amv3Ca78Ye6Fx7tYMVKmEHo 3sZifScojNzb+3jdJwba2lotn3pbbbHIPU6J826dGCWE9UZZLouz5ScCAfUyapKVqmo1asvAXjLP nYJEaLus8XeEEAiHloE+qWRx0Hx6bdFhc5A9rpw7HzFSpXzlHJbSJRqhGR4rxMvhi0ITAUaYljrH kDSNxLm+cy3dVvQPg6i8k8yr0ZFfl5jEhWZSNAxNO07RaYqy8g/Xb4mA8AqGoCLKjfc8dsekL3Xb GuENgH8pMhYhRX4P5tx5bjAaVbElqFseYz8h/f39+BXLs5/chVtSVPjl0W42S2ner2LXVi63HwR5 /gmf0A0JO1Q+YEISdVU/oLfD14Uxm0LylqrjO/jRp4/36iQHvJ/wl4B8aB6+4k/oywy1UsTNkVrH zPq8PDACvnhxuk60zdbsp3HJg2tRbEbx5Q4B3JHPNWeNOlACPvUJg0U7lStjQR+Kt0DiEPtKzXun 6wNMzK46Xjr0EIkNaTf7qVyTk7se7vaJ3QvL9qLzAF1J0bsA3LwU+S2fhJqqfDoq7Z78EjtZUlr2 X85qvDN5dx4KErDsH65GvS4a4wLRt96TBNyH8DWn+LwQnJWtLmWq9YvJVFZoMuSoeCEpX+R7GnAD mclHw9d+/EfhNb8prsTNodLXc4y6gSVhC+nbmdmUErm2+D8jpcw4lsDRl21BmbcbXKA8P271bjsr MNnSI6OnWdPXedyeN0M+CWt2WlpI9XMtuqDhCTGjshMuLDU5WmJX6iiiJwX9TiauF/hLCjwJ+d27 WCMWMiCfuC2/LomvXNYHqr141TiPLsBMnjIs8+QzC8u+mpsbEEh3f/VbB5t1Vjj4o8n2cHsjEnge BDPiFdM88g/xOny+XNc5L2uuPvOC5/sQSeohhTewRDgn4ZD/zCVq8pBzLi6mwu1Dufi82fU2KkoD cRe00/MX2U2sjGM2k9D+SqIxa+vbEA5Blef+2o2Pvs0phPpW/6jHJax+f6Ds9gsYW2jxRkm6xvsO +Iz9zRsHe+w9xE/i2uZnjHpn1wjFeLXG8ISLca8KORW7HyMBL/oLIDLetrjge5shsLHjxuT0hqoV M+2c7NU4NU5i4c/gPsW6yRYGhBZD07J5NOtFMy37mxb1rA+ZQOMl+FOLrkXotqx8u8B6RY6LjuGB l3cgd0BBKTvF6Qn2T7hVjRdYVCRoHkmNZ9p9ru5X36wnFf/IjAPhvhb17tyEMwuElm00A5F1yeuY +5Tc9EU1yfZbJKgi0TmuWDfnF1Zb+bOxTudn3GJ/PPBU7/lWZ+ojKjwLiupN2CNmNg4IBavV5etg uRNDAvCJ5E9olOC2hjS+ytX2qcwN5CZP6dRqbRf8tCy/7LdioiReIy68DN8NpyjDHda1t1Rth8KH 7lked8gowLlJhu2SXWOPFSRkg5GbiyWgA3GYv3nd2coNvZYQhS0KR36+e7ejmfwWHvJ2Iqy4lQfB NmFyhimqiEBEQrh8hcqtl4uFADOQGs5LRf3Thrv3b9R1XtchKdZNltPRqpMGSh8dZllYmlC4K48H F3Z+R1HMIWNpWt5Xr0/jA0/ANIpyX4UfS/e7eeyMey+jNIsLzNw4czFBdL0V7boRiZZN8BqR0J2P 1zgoY+Nb71DmTQBN3K41xibriOURa6Aqju9ep05h+++maSQqEisAcJ7IZNWfjBtBUQWtXMw8fwEK 8jzrx+DKdMEAJAbH/hGrqDIbf/0/bQdiRbuKmMrY5oaojaWNU8RJi/p6rWox1F9UdcsgSg7hKRiP Y3DaAYgTtgC0X+5YaQNGw7m/p/Zfnysfaji83l6GvPVl+KA4uPNMQTPkeJFjj1Dj5iphnRQ+ynIu kCSJiob1BeDdHnD1UZlXK2sVjDsXTOQPG8f0Ud5yfYQ2XoI7zp/DlGersiceb5q0Hg0p44fr+qLA PdZ6ByklnnNWqENkUU1Wx/xPagY/h/dlkW5cK7zZprREPcr2AacBaookGUSXERM1yN4C9K2psc67 (Original message truncated) (X-Keith-Bostic-Header) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:25:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0B937B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B98843FF5 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 666) id 068BD9595C; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:25:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EB695958; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:25:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B664BB823; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:25:28 +0200 (CEST) To: Paul Robinson References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:25:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:37 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:25:33 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > as - could be replaced, maybe even re-implmented. > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. Look again. We don't use a GPLed awk. > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page With a good arbitrary-precision math library, yes. The one we have happens to be GPLed. > binutils - collection of some 20 smallish apps, all manageable > bzip2 - could be reimplemented More like "doesn't really belong in the base system". Yes, I know it compresses better than libz, but it is significantly slower and more memory-intensive. > cpio - reimplement from man page, or replace/remove requirement for I don't think we actually need it. > cvs - Don't need this do we? :-) look at another version control? Not bloody likely. Not any time soon, anyway. > grep - the issue here is the regexp, otherwise re-implement. There is a BSD-licensed version in ports, which apart from a bug or two and some performance issues is IMHO superior to GNU grep. > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? Not bloody likely, unless you volunteer to convert all the man pages (including translations). > gzip - nasty, but re-implementable. Or we move to a non-GNU zip format. Trivially reimplementable, since libz is under a BSD-like license. > ipfilter - unclear on license... QNX_OCL.txt??? Not GPLed. > less - re-implementable quite quickly You might be surprised... > libio - another stdio lib from somewhere to replace it? > libpam - Linux PAM. Major effort to replace. Bzzt, wrong. There is no GPLed code in our PAM implementation or modules. > man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known This is a SMOP. > perl - it's not part of base anymore is it? Not in 5.x. > send-pr - remove! OK, re-implement, if you must. :-) Overdue for replacement. > sort - another undergrad project based on the man page There are non-trivial locale issues. > texinfo - find alternative, or remove from base It is required to process documentation for significant portion of the base system. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:27:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CB737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D586D43FE1 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 666) id 118119595C; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:27:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D15E95958; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:27:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 16820B823; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:27:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Paul Robinson References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:27:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030626115133.GA57378@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:51:33 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: Peter McGarvey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:27:32 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > That's exactly what it's used for. I haven't seen anybody use awk for more > than a command line `awk '{print $4, $6}'` in years. I know one guy who u= ses > it for other stuff, and he's moving it all to perl anyway. If we were to > write a 'colprint' command that would do the same thing, most people would > not notice the difference if it went. They would notice that the FreeBSD kernel stopped building. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:32:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1371937B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.117.225.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F9D43FCB for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (unknown [64.117.225.220]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080A76BA46F; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:32:37 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:32:37 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:32:41 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: Potentially stupid questions, but ... > > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page > > With a good arbitrary-precision math library, yes. The one we have > happens to be GPLed. Is there anything at the operating system level that uses/requires bc, or could it be moved to ports ... ? Like, I use it, but its a command line tool, not something I've seen used in scripts ... > > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? > > Not bloody likely, unless you volunteer to convert all the man pages > (including translations). What was used before groff? there was an nroff and troff before groff, no? or is it just that there are alot of 'groff-isms' that we're using in the man pages? > > less - re-implementable quite quickly > > You might be surprised... ... but any reason why its part of hte main system instead of just put into ports? > > man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known > > This is a SMOP. SMOP? *raised eyebrow* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:32:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB1737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BC743F3F for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:32:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 666) id 295A19595E; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:32:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA369595D; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:32:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 4BD89B823; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:32:47 +0200 (CEST) To: Paul Robinson References: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:32:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:32:36 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.8 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FWD_MSG,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!'] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:32:50 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > ports/misc/freedialog, something I did in 1999. > [...] > OpenBSD on Sunday removed GNU grep in favor of freegrep, which was another > project from 1999. It was a busy couple of months :) I'm a bit surprised to see you claim credit for freegrep, as it was written by JP Howard and myself, and your name doesn't appear anywhere in the sources or documentation. OpenBSD, by the way, uses a completely different implementation written by Carson Harding. Your name doesn't appear there either. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:41:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0145637B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E2443FA3 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 649C710BFA8; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:41:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:41:41 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20030626204139.GD1275@nitro.dk> References: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!'] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:41:44 -0000 --ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.06.26 22:32:47 +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Paul Robinson writes: > > ports/misc/freedialog, something I did in 1999. > > [...] > > OpenBSD on Sunday removed GNU grep in favor of freegrep, which was anot= her > > project from 1999. It was a busy couple of months :) >=20 > I'm a bit surprised to see you claim credit for freegrep, as it was > written by JP Howard and myself, and your name doesn't appear anywhere > in the sources or documentation. Paul didn't. From the top of the message you replied to : ----- Forwarded message from "James P. Howard II" ---= -- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!' =46rom: "James P. Howard II" To: Cc: , , Reply-To: howardjp@vocito.com X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.8) The FreeBSD mailing lists are broken and reject mail from me, could you forward this to the list for me? [CUT] --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++1qD8kocFXgPTRwRAmylAJ9CduZuej69OFsfyjdWOIE4EjfgYQCgzjww 4N7c2A7E/JrAn580bEDW8I8= =PMhO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZARJHfwaSJQLOEUz-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:44:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D372937B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com (gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com [196.7.14.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4E443F93 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:44:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@gerund.futureperfectcorporation.com) Received: (qmail 59755 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Jun 2003 20:45:26 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:45:26 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20030626204526.GA58347@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> Organization: Independent Online X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:44:06 -0000 On Thu 2003-06-26 (17:32), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > less - re-implementable quite quickly > > > > You might be surprised... > > ... but any reason why its part of hte main system instead of just put > into ports? I hate to get involved, but less isn't only GPL - it's distributable under an entirely BSD-like license too. This program is free software. You may redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of either: 1. The GNU General Public License, as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option) any later version. A copy of this license is in the file COPYING. or 2. The Less License, in the file LICENSE. LICENSE says: Less Copyright (C) 1984-2000 Mark Nudelman Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met: 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:44:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691E737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D39143FBF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 666) id 5C8B69595F; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:44:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3341C9595E; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:44:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id EE93DB823; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:44:05 +0200 (CEST) To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:44:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> (Marc G. Fournier's message of "Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:32:37 -0300 (ADT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:44:09 -0000 "Marc G. Fournier" writes: > Is there anything at the operating system level that uses/requires bc, or > could it be moved to ports ... ? Like, I use it, but its a command line > tool, not something I've seen used in scripts ... We care about POSIX. > > > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? > > Not bloody likely, unless you volunteer to convert all the man pages > > (including translations). > What was used before groff? there was an nroff and troff before groff, > no? or is it just that there are alot of 'groff-isms' that we're using in > the man pages? Did we ever use anything else than groff?=20=20 > > > less - re-implementable quite quickly > > You might be surprised... > ... but any reason why its part of hte main system instead of just put > into ports? POSIX requires more(1) (which in FreeBSD is a hard link to less(1)), and it's not under GPL anyway (see /usr/src/contrib/less/LICENSE) > > > man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known > > This is a SMOP. > SMOP? *raised eyebrow* Small Matter Of Programming (though there are some locale issues) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:45:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8966E37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD564400F for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 666) id E8A329595C; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:45:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3AC95958; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:45:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 30F73B823; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:45:32 +0200 (CEST) To: "Simon L. Nielsen" References: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626204139.GD1275@nitro.dk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:45:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030626204139.GD1275@nitro.dk> (Simon L. Nielsen's message of "Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:41:41 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.3 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FWD_MSG,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!'] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:45:34 -0000 "Simon L. Nielsen" writes: > On 2003.06.26 22:32:47 +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > I'm a bit surprised to see you claim credit for freegrep [...] > Paul didn't. From the top of the message you replied to: [...] Foo! Something's wrong with my MUA. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 13:46:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A499137B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF09C43FAF for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:46:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A933210BFA8; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:46:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:46:27 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20030626204627.GE1275@nitro.dk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="orO6xySwJI16pVnm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626172910.N98477@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:46:30 -0000 --orO6xySwJI16pVnm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.06.26 17:32:37 -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >=20 > Potentially stupid questions, but ... >=20 > > > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page > > > > With a good arbitrary-precision math library, yes. The one we have > > happens to be GPLed. >=20 > Is there anything at the operating system level that uses/requires bc, or > could it be moved to ports ... ? Like, I use it, but its a command line > tool, not something I've seen used in scripts ... Like awk it's part of IEEE Std 1003.1, so I think it would be a bad idea to remove it unless there is a very good reason. > > > less - re-implementable quite quickly > > > > You might be surprised... >=20 > ... but any reason why its part of hte main system instead of just put > into ports? Because it's very nice to have? While I do think it would be preferable with BSD (or similar) licened utils, I don't think there is any reason for a crusade to remove GNU/GPL utils just because of their license, if there is no other compareable util that can be imported instead. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --orO6xySwJI16pVnm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE++1uj8kocFXgPTRwRAosFAJ4r1YUUnQY//A1x5+KyPBr8BmEJGQCfWfIT Biy0ff8dp63go7ucibFOmrI= =tFwI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --orO6xySwJI16pVnm-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 14:00:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852EC37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F4943F85 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5QL0KMJ084125; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:00:21 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5QL0Khb084122; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:00:20 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:00:20 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030626233822.W24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:00:25 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Paul Robinson writes: > > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page > > With a good arbitrary-precision math library, yes. The one we have > happens to be GPLed. > but do we need it? > > bzip2 - could be reimplemented > > More like "doesn't really belong in the base system". Yes, I know it > compresses better than libz, but it is significantly slower and more > memory-intensive. > bzip2 is not - and has not ever been - gpl licenced. In fact, i somebody botheres to take a look at /usr/src/contrib/bzip2/LICENCE they will see something that is inbetween 4-cluase BSD licence and apache licence. I really don't see what would be achieved from a pure 2-clause bsd licence reimplementation, imho it would be pretty pointless As for belonging in the base system - it has roughly the same relevance as gzip or gcc or similar. Uninclusion of it would be very awkward. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 14:09:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CE637B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF2143FB1 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 666) id 6560A95958; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24159595D; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:09:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A4091B823; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:09:24 +0200 (CEST) To: Narvi References: <20030626233822.W24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:09:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030626233822.W24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> (narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee's message of "Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:00:20 +0300 (EEST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:09:27 -0000 Narvi writes: > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Paul Robinson writes: > > > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page > > With a good arbitrary-precision math library, yes. The one we have > > happens to be GPLed. > but do we need it? Yes, it is required by POSIX. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 14:12:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D0237B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C8543FFB for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08799; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:11:48 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030626150855.02ddd630@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:11:38 -0600 To: Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030626102830.GV34365@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:12:00 -0000 At 04:28 AM 6/26/2003, Paul Robinson wrote: >That isn't what he considers the BSDs to be at all. He does however, >completely accurately, belive that the BSDs would not be functional without >GPL code. They would be. There's plenty of non-GPLed code available to make them functional. However, the BSDs have fallen into an unhealthy and dangerous dependency upon GPLed code. >Great, so when are you going to re-write gcc then? Make sure it's command >line compatible, and we need every command line option to work. And don't >forget gdb! This demonstrates the degree to which FreeBSD in particular has allowed itself to become dependent upon GPLed code. To require "every command line option to work" effectively means that there's no escape. Your project might as well be owned by the FSF, as it is totally dependent upon it. >Last night actually, one friend of mine reccomended the project should >consider re-writing FBSD in Pascal. This actually would catch a lot of subtle bugs. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 14:14:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF8737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F3243FEC for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08839; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:14:31 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030626151256.02ddc2c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:14:23 -0600 To: Peter McGarvey , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> References: <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:14:43 -0000 At 05:35 AM 6/26/2003, Peter McGarvey wrote: >Doesn't OpenBSD have a preferance for BSDL? Yes. They have the least GPLed code of any of the BSDs, and it's pretty much all in the toolchain. Which means that FreeBSD could cut its GPLed content substantially simply by importing code from OpenBSD; no new rewrites required! --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 14:17:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38AC37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025A743FEA for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08890; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:17:46 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030626151501.02beb860@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:17:37 -0600 To: Paul Robinson , The Hermit Hacker From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:17:58 -0000 At 05:03 AM 6/26/2003, Paul Robinson wrote: >bzip2 - could be reimplemented bzip is, IIRC, already under a BSD-like license. >cc - find an alternative compiler? From where? TenDRA (sorry if I've flubbed the capitalization here) is the most often mentioned alternative. >cpio - reimplement from man page, or replace/remove requirement for Doesn't OpenBSD have a BSD-licensed cpio? >cvs - Don't need this do we? :-) look at another version control? CVS is actually a pretty primitive hack. Moving to something more modern and powerful would be a big win. >man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known OpenBSD has a BSD-licensed implementation. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 17:05:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C03237B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep12-int.chello.nl (amsfep12-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB3043FEC for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joao@netmaniacs.org) Received: from pandora.intra.schim.net ([213.93.164.153]) by amsfep12-int.chello.nlESMTP <20030627000513.JOTI6336.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@pandora.intra.schim.net> for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 02:05:13 +0200 Received: from phooka.intra.schim.net (phooka.intra.schim.net [192.168.0.4]) by pandora.intra.schim.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h5R05Chv065582 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 02:05:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joao@netmaniacs.org) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 02:04:59 +0200 From: Joao Schim To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030627020459.065a1bd0.joao@netmaniacs.org> In-Reply-To: <20030626113310.S81431@brainguts.no-ip.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626010357.J508@hub.org> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626152034.GA38756@mail.it.ca> <20030626113310.S81431@brainguts.no-ip.com> Organization: NetManiacs.org X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:05:16 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Eli Scott wrote: > Reguarding AWK - I work at a university in the Environmental Science > department. I'm working on a project right now regaurding stream flow and > nitrate flushing. over 90% of the programs we use to process streamflow > records are written in AWK, and it definately is useful beyond filtering > columns. This might be just my boss' preference in language, but I have > tried to reimplement the programs in python, or even make more powerful > versions in C/C++, and AWK always ends up being the most efficient tool > with the fastest development time. So, yes, AWK is used beyond column > filtering. And...if it's dropped from FreeBSD, I'll have to go back to > using Solaris. I don't want to go back to using Solaris. I don't admin > the Solaris machine...its mucky! > > -Eli > I believe the discussion was about moving it to ports, not to drop it totally. In stead of using Solaris you would just pkg_add or build the port on FreeBSD. What a relief ;) Joao From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 17:14:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AF837B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wonkity.com (wonkity.com [65.173.111.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AB743FEC for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from wonkity.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wonkity.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5R0EcXk031008; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:14:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from localhost (wblock@localhost) by wonkity.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id h5R0Eail031005; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:14:38 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:14:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Warren Block To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030626181147.Y30934@wonkity.com> References: <20030626143236.GF57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626204139.GD1275@nitro.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: 'Use BSD, for goodness sake!'] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:14:44 -0000 On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Foo! Something's wrong with my MUA. Hmmm... > User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 Aha! It's GPL! 8-) -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 21:23:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE4F37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BFC43FE5 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12389; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:23:38 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030626222202.02c9b560@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:23:35 -0600 To: "Michael Carr" , "FreeBSD Chat" From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <005801c3535b$72d1fe80$59eb30d5@pbncomputer> References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626070537.GB91605@droso.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 04:23:47 -0000 At 03:50 AM 7/26/2003, Michael Carr wrote: >What's interesting is that Stallman asserts a GPL'd kernel wouldn't be >necessary to any "GNU operating system" ("Today, GNU runs with various >kernels . . . It is basically the same system, whichever kernel you use"), >and that at no point does he assert the moral or political necessity for a >copylefted mode of licensing, but merely lists provisions common to both the >GPL and BSDL ("users are free to run it, study it No, they're not. They can't study GPLed code without risking "GPL infection." >and change it . . . Ditto. >redistribute it . . . Not unless they want to give up their rights to their modifications. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 00:52:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0392837B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A64643F93 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfnhl.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.222.53] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Vo1v-0003Pu-00; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:52:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3EFBF768.6D44621A@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:51:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <20030626102830.GV34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e584affef3a98de6498f0f4a4cd6cea43ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 07:52:35 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:45:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part > > of the "GNU system." > > That isn't what he considers the BSDs to be at all. He does however, > completely accurately, belive that the BSDs would not be functional without > GPL code. According to SCO, Linux wouldn't b functional without USL code... 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 01:09:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F33137B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1C043FDF for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfnhl.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.222.53] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19VoIK-0005FC-00; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:09:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:08:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40bbe041cfb4b0053535411a8d05bfd6b93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:09:25 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > If we take the output of that, and also mix in the stuff in /usr/src/gnu > then we get the list (and my rough, top of the head, first stab on whether > they're needed and/or can be reimplemented) below of around 35 (there is > some duplication) packages that would need to be re-implemented, replaced or > removed for FBSD to be GPL free. > > as - could be replaced, maybe even re-implmented. There's a different assembler, already in ports. > awk - encourage people to port their code away from awk. Big. Real awk is available. > bc - an undergrad could re-implement based on man page Or even a graduate... 8-). > binutils - collection of some 20 smallish apps, all manageable These are all tied to the compilers. Most of them are only necessary because of the compiler. > bzip2 - could be reimplemented Or ignored. The Unisys patent which caused it to be written has expired (Welcome home, compress, we missed you!). > cc - find an alternative compiler? From where? TenDRA. Watcom. Intel. Lots of choices here. > cpio - reimplement from man page, or replace/remove requirement for pax. > cvs - Don't need this do we? :-) look at another version control? P4. > dc - see bc "" > dialog - need it now, kill it later, or re-implement based on man page Kill it. > diff - another undergrad project > diff3 - see diff Free versions available. > gcc - hahahaha. yeah, right. see "cc". > gdb - ditto. See "cc" and "binutils". > gperf - remove? teach people better DS&A? :-) Not needed. > grep - the issue here is the regexp, otherwise re-implement. Recently discussed; replacement not imported for historical performance reasons. > groff - look at alternate doc formatting? Real nroff available. Primary reason for groff is mandoc and Postscript. > gzip - nasty, but re-implementable. Or we move to a non-GNU zip format. Compress, again. > ipfilter - unclear on license... QNX_OCL.txt??? OpenBSD implementation; however, current ipfilter is not GPL. > less - re-implementable quite quickly Just use standard "more". > ld - similar issues to cc and as - quite small though. See CC. > libgmp - alternatives available, with a performance hit Shouldn't need to install this by default as part of base system. > libio - another stdio lib from somewhere to replace it? Uh... /usr/src/lib/libc/stdio? > libpam - Linux PAM. Major effort to replace. PAM has already been moved out from under by D.E.S. > libreadline - big one to replace, IMHO Free replacement exists; big problem is internationalization, which is poorly handled anyway. > man - could be re-implemented based on file format information known Part of real nroff/troff. > ncurses - big, high-impact, hard to replace Old curses (Welcome back, real terminfo support!) > patch - see diff Larry Wall's "Artistic License"; not GPL. > perl - it's not part of base anymore is it? If people want it, they grab it Not part of base system. > ptx - remove/replace/re-implement. Probably the former. Make not part of base system. > rcs - remove and make an optional package? Not GPL. > sdiff - see diff/patch Free version already available. > send-pr - remove! OK, re-implement, if you must. :-) Never works for anyone with an email domain that doesn't match their mail relay's domain anyway. Reenable the web page and call it a day. > sort - another undergrad project based on the man page Trivial. > tar - find alternative, or re-implement pax. > tcpdump - remove from base? Remove from base. > texinfo - find alternative, or remove from base Use real Knuth TeX, instead. > There's actually quite a few there that could be removed out to optional > packages or ports. Some of it though - like the compiler - just has to stay > unless an alternative is found. The ones that could be taken out straight > away without much impact (I think!) are bc/dc, gperf, groff, ipfilter, > libgmp (maybe?), libpam, perl, ptx, rcs and texinfo. That would bring us > down to around two dozen GNU apps distributed with FBSD, and 10 of those > could be re-written to be command line compatible but under BSD license > quite quickly. > > Thoughts? That code is under the GPL doesn't matter for tactical code. All the code you've just named is tactical, not strategic; for example, no one cares what compiled their code, or what compiler runs on a platform, if they are running only binary programs. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 01:23:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F1237B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913E243FAF for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc155.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.4.165] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19VoW0-0001f4-00; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:23:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:22:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk><20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4121b7f2e900050bd682e825c9684bc51350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Peter McGarvey cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:23:44 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 02:20:27PM +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > > Actually there is. awk is a part of IEEE Std 1003.1, so if we want > > FreeBSD to be, or at least as much as possible, a real UNIX it can't be > > removed. It is also used quite a bit in the build system, espcially > > since perl was removed. > > Ah. That's that then. Who the hell came up with that idea? > > Anyway, at the moment the one there is actually gawk. Are there no other > implementations knocking around? There must be if it's in the standard. For most of the things you mention, they are included in "The Programmer's Workbench" from Bell Labs, which is now available for free download, including ksh93, awk, troff, etc.. Why not use the real things, if you are going to replace the GNU replacements? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 04:56:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD8E37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 04:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5EC4400E for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 04:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5RBuBtW017430; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 07:56:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:55:58 +0200 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:56:24 -0000 At 1:08 AM -0700 2003/06/27, Terry Lambert wrote: >> bzip2 - could be reimplemented > > Or ignored. The Unisys patent which caused it to be written has > expired (Welcome home, compress, we missed you!). Compress is okay, but people have come to rely on gzip and bzip2. IMO, perhaps the best thing is to move them to ports. Unless, that is, they're used anywhere in the build process. >> cc - find an alternative compiler? From where? > > TenDRA. Watcom. Intel. Lots of choices here. How many of these work on non-Intel hardware, such as Alpha or SPARC? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 06:51:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB2F37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8654D43FDF for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vtd6-000Ixk-9j for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:51:08 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5RDp7Cl018856 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:51:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5RDp7lc018851 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:51:07 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:51:07 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030627135107.GC18620@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19Vtd6-000Ixk-9j*MosF45swSUM* Subject: Decent book on code reading X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:51:10 -0000 Hi all, I stumbled across an interesting book and found a nice surprise as well. I bought _Code Reading_ by Diomidis Spinellis and published by Addison-Wesley. If it isn't obvious, it's about how to read, understand, and modify already existing code. It's supposed to help with very large and complex codebases. Here's the neat part: the book uses NetBSD as the main example. The version it uses is a couple of years old, but the points are still valid. Almost every example of a specific technique or a point he wants to make is footnoted to a source file in the NetBSD tree. Plus, it comes with a CD packed full of examples, including Java. I'm still in the process of reading it, so I can't give a complete opinion just yet. But I thought some of you might find it interesting, especially the BSD connection. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 07:45:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE0F37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 07:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-106-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CBC43FE3 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 07:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20]) by crf-consulting.co.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5REhlRf084559; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:43:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5REhlLG049788; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:43:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by clan.nothing-going-on.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h5REhkpi049782; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:43:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:43:46 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Jonathon McKitrick Message-ID: <20030627144346.GA49368@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20030627135107.GC18620@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030627135107.GC18620@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Decent book on code reading X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:45:21 -0000 --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 02:51:07PM +0100, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I bought _Code Reading_ by Diomidis Spinellis and published by > Addison-Wesley. If it isn't obvious, it's about how to read, understand, > and modify already existing code. It's supposed to help with very large = and > complex codebases. See=20 http://www.freebsd.org/news/newsflash.html#2003June23:0 (the June 23rd entry, if it's not obvious). N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+/Fgik6gHZCw343URAvdPAJ4vICtxuUilCkPqFdF03+JPyQKX6gCfUoO7 0uUPa6KE57IKES+VudG65Sk= =SCid -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 08:08:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D435E37B401; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4E843FCB; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vuq5-000Bd4-1m; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:08:37 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5RF8aCl019175; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:08:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5RF8ah9019174; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:08:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:08:36 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Nik Clayton Message-ID: <20030627150836.GC18980@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030627135107.GC18620@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030627144346.GA49368@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030627144346.GA49368@clan.nothing-going-on.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19Vuq5-000Bd4-1m*xvxOsZANLqs* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Decent book on code reading X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:08:40 -0000 : http://www.freebsd.org/news/newsflash.html#2003June23:0 : : (the June 23rd entry, if it's not obvious). Well, well, well. I can't believe how many books I own by BSD committers now. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 09:56:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0452037B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.attbi.com (sccrmhc13.attbi.com [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F030043F75 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2003062716563701600plhroe>; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:56:38 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h5RGse9I081181; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h5RGsS5w081178; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: FreeBSD Chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Jun 2003 09:54:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:56:40 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > For most of the things you mention, they are included in > "The Programmer's Workbench" from Bell Labs, which is now > available for free download, including ksh93, awk, troff, > etc.. > > Why not use the real things, if you are going to replace the > GNU replacements? Maybe because AT&T's licenses are over the "onerous" threshold too. Eg, ksh93's at http://www.research.att.com/sw/license/ast-open.html It impresses me as the most well-written license I've seen, and it pleases me by it's acknowledgment that the software is "proprietary" (which is contrary to the wide misuse of the term in the open-source world, while strictly accurate in the GNU-speak meaning of "not GPL-compatible"), BUT it is the most protective of an open source licensor's rights of any license I can remember and it has MANY onerous terms which I doubt that few derivers would be willing to work under. I'm not sure it's even worth the risks to use their software as-is, given terms such as found in the indemnification section. This term from the first section helps set the tone of the thing: You will regularly monitor the [AT&T] Website for any notices. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 10:27:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B193937B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.attbi.com (rwcrmhc12.attbi.com [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BBB43F3F for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2003062717270501400k6d8me>; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:27:05 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h5RHOp9I081540; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h5RHObCi081537; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: FreeBSD Chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Jun 2003 10:24:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:27:07 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > [snip] if the goal of moving to a non-GPL environment was going to be > met. [snip] Thank you for using "if". As much as I dislike copyleft, it's clear (from this thread alone) that moving to a no-copyleft FreeBSD should not be a goal. Developing as much good non-GPL software as possible is a better goal, regardless whether some GPL software is being used. Using some GPL software helps with that goal more than replacing it would, given the number of FreeBSD developers (and level of *BSD cooperation). The reason for removing copyleft software should not be to fend off lies like "FreeBSD is a GNU system". The reason should be to give people the ability to modify the OS's software without having to participate in the development of copyleft software. But the value of that ability (to modify under a good license), or the value of candidate modifications, is sometimes not worth the costs of re-developing the software and/or keeping it in sync with the often-de-facto-standard copyleft version and otherwise maintaining it, especially when that cost is measured in terms of equivalent efforts which could have been used for developing other FreeBSD software. And sometimes the modifications are small enough to be done under copyleft with a tolerable level of shame. :) But after someone has scratched their "itch", I suppose it's hard to not accept the results into the OS and to complain that the efforts should have been used elsewhere or that it is unworthy of the maintenance burden it will place on FreeBSD. But I think it should be resisted in some cases. For example, I can't imagine it makes sense to shoulder the burden of maintaining a competitor to "gawk"; I'm thinking that the value of any modifications to this de-facto standard setter, is less than zero, so that there's no good reason to maintain a competitor that can be modified under a good license. (I guess it could be justified for performance improvements, but I doubt that performance is an issue.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 12:36:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB67637B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B7443FF2 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18814; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:35:53 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133348.03575190@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:35:45 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:36:07 -0000 At 02:08 AM 6/27/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >> bzip2 - could be reimplemented > >Or ignored. The Unisys patent which caused it to be written has >expired (Welcome home, compress, we missed you!). bzip is actually better, because of the way it reorders files. >> gzip - nasty, but re-implementable. Or we move to a non-GNU zip format. > >Compress, again. Can't bzip handle gzip archives? --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 12:38:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEE937B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8651643FE3 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h5RJcib9042865; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h5RJci1d042864; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:38:44 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030627193844.GA42827@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133348.03575190@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133348.03575190@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:38:46 -0000 On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 01:35:45PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Can't bzip handle gzip archives? No. bzip2 does not handle files compressed by gzip. Nor does gzip archive. -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 12:45:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6810637B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23DCD44034 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18952; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:45:42 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133616.035646f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:36:59 -0600 To: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:45:52 -0000 At 05:55 AM 6/27/2003, Brad Knowles wrote: >>> cc - find an alternative compiler? From where? >> >> TenDRA. Watcom. Intel. Lots of choices here. > > How many of these work on non-Intel hardware, such as Alpha or SPARC? All but Intel. However, Watcom's out because it uses a viral license (basically a modified GPL). --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 12:45:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF3437B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FA744035 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18955; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:45:47 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133739.035722d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:45:28 -0600 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:45:55 -0000 At 11:24 AM 6/27/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Thank you for using "if". As much as I dislike copyleft, it's clear >(from this thread alone) that moving to a no-copyleft FreeBSD should not >be a goal. Why do you draw this conclusion? My conclusion, after reading this thread, is that FreeBSD must act NOW to remove as much GPLed code as possible (hopefully, every shred of it). FreeBSD is now so dangerously dependent upon GPLed software that it soon will no longer be able to fufill its role as a source of truly free code. This is, of course, one of Stallman's goals: to infiltrate both truly free and commercial software to the point where no operating system and no software product is independent of the FSF's software. And FreeBSD is falling for the ruse. YES, we absolutely do need to bring older code up to date -- or even re-program the wheel if necessary. To insist upon blind forward "progress" while the enemy is in fact nipping at our flanks is to ensure defeat. The price of not standing up for principle now will be to lose our very REAL freedom in exchange for Stallman's false "freedom." --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 15:23:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A6437B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.attbi.com (rwcrmhc12.attbi.com [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B73843FF2 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:23:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2003062722235601400k5462e>; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:23:56 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h5RMM29I085100; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h5RMLuGV085099; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Brett Glass References: <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133739.035722d0@localhost> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Jun 2003 15:21:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133739.035722d0@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 53 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:23:58 -0000 Brett Glass writes: > At 11:24 AM 6/27/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >Thank you for using "if". As much as I dislike copyleft, it's clear > >(from this thread alone) that moving to a no-copyleft FreeBSD should not > >be a goal. > Why do you draw this conclusion? My conclusion, after reading this thread, > is that FreeBSD must act NOW to remove as much GPLed code as possible > (hopefully, every shred of it). FreeBSD is now so dangerously dependent > upon GPLed software that it soon will no longer be able to fufill its role > as a source of truly free code. "Why?" That's an odd question to ask in response to a message that was written to explain why. Oh well. But I could ask you the same question, since you didn't even bother to TRY explain your conclusion, or why mine is wrong. But I couldn't expect a reasonable reply. :( > This is, of course, one of Stallman's goals: to infiltrate both truly free > and commercial software to the point where no operating system and no > software product is independent of the FSF's software. And FreeBSD is > falling for the ruse. The need to be independent of FSF (or any other badly licensed code) is not the most (or even a very) important thing for the future of FreeBSD. It can find itself with few users in the tiniest of niches with nothing but well-licensed code. No, FreeBSD needs to continue to be a great OS, with as much well-licensed code as can be afforded while keeping the OS great. That can best be done with a fair amount of badly-licensed code, especially code for utilities (which should be as standardized as possible anyway), as long as people keep writing lots of well-licensed code. Let the copyleft guild do some of FreeBSD's dirty work, like "awk", "sort", and other things for which there is no great need to have a customized version. For another example, I sure don't expect to get much use from a well-licensed editor while (X)emacs is around. There's plenty of other FreeBSD software to be developed under a good license. > YES, we absolutely do need to bring older code up to date -- or even > re-program the wheel if necessary. To insist upon blind forward "progress" > while the enemy is in fact nipping at our flanks is to ensure defeat. > The price of not standing up for principle now will be to lose our very > REAL freedom in exchange for Stallman's false "freedom." More unsubstantiated statements. Anybody who thinks they need the freedom to modify a "tar" version under a good license, should be discouraged from doing so, but they always have the freedom to do as they please without expending the efforts of FreeBSD developers. There's no defeat to be found in using some external open source software in FreeBSD, even if it can't be modified at all. Can't you think of improvements that you'd rather have than some BSD-unique feature of "tar", etc.? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 20:45:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D0D37B404 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3398D43FDD for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 544FB5269F; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:15:08 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:15:08 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Sue Blake , Paul Robinson , Brett Glass , FreeBSD Chat , Michael Carr Message-ID: <20030628034508.GF29066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <026301c352eb$1e5b54c0$2aed30d5@pbncomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626102830.GV34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626233909.A79464@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="V4b9U9vrdWczvw78" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030626233909.A79464@welearn.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 03:45:04 -0000 --V4b9U9vrdWczvw78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 26 June 2003 at 23:39:09 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:28:30AM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 09:45:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> >>> In short, Stallman considers the BSDs' "userland" utilities to be part >>> of the "GNU system." >> >> That isn't what he considers the BSDs to be at all. He does however, >> completely accurately, belive that the BSDs would not be functional without >> GPL code. > > Would that apply to the commercial flavours of unix too? No. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --V4b9U9vrdWczvw78 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+/Q9EIubykFB6QiMRAqy5AJ9U1UwOlYMgoasB28waAm2yibdu3QCfZL5N OQZFx7yT+z0ESbkzU99f3vo= =VJGo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --V4b9U9vrdWczvw78-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 22:27:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE1037B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3B84400B for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3C24D5269F; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 14:57:10 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 14:57:10 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030628052710.GK29066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626113553.GA53078@packet.org.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFEBD.B8772772@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133739.035722d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rnP2AJ7yb1j09OW/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030627133739.035722d0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:27:04 -0000 --rnP2AJ7yb1j09OW/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 27 June 2003 at 13:45:28 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:24 AM 6/27/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >> Thank you for using "if". As much as I dislike copyleft, it's clear >> (from this thread alone) that moving to a no-copyleft FreeBSD should not >> be a goal. > > Why do you draw this conclusion? My conclusion, after reading this thread, > is that FreeBSD must act NOW to remove as much GPLed code as possible > (hopefully, every shred of it). FreeBSD is now so dangerously dependent > upon GPLed software that it soon will no longer be able to fufill its role > as a source of truly free code. I note that most of the discussion on this topic was by people who are not central to the FreeBSD project. As you know, few people are as zealous as you are about wanting to rid the project of GPL'd code. > This is, of course, one of Stallman's goals: to infiltrate both > truly free and commercial software to the point where no operating > system and no software product is independent of the FSF's > software. And FreeBSD is falling for the ruse. If anything, FreeBSD is gradually removing GPLd code where it makes sense. IIRC you hadn't noticed when we changed from GNU awk to nawk. > YES, we absolutely do need to bring older code up to date -- or even > re-program the wheel if necessary. We've said it before: provide us with a good replacement and we'll consider it seriously. Go ahead. I would *really* like to see a replacement for gdb, for example. > To insist upon blind forward "progress" while the enemy is in fact > nipping at our flanks is to ensure defeat. The price of not > standing up for principle now will be to lose our very REAL freedom > in exchange for Stallman's false "freedom." Most people in the FreeBSD project don't see things quite like that. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --rnP2AJ7yb1j09OW/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+/ScuIubykFB6QiMRAoUIAJ9Kvmt0zIUBYyLVgD93zTcXUedXegCglouP Shi//jKrsMfGFFSDJ8xAJbY= =wrno -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rnP2AJ7yb1j09OW/-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 23:45:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF75B37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F134401E for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:45:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjii.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.82] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19W9Sz-0006pA-00; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:45:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3EFD3947.2386380C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:44:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EFBFB70.B6121D9E@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a463d4f69d6f0b69cc7b119200cf78339aa8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 06:45:51 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > Compress is okay, but people have come to rely on gzip and bzip2. > IMO, perhaps the best thing is to move them to ports. Unless, that > is, they're used anywhere in the build process. I believeOpenBSD have extended compress to include gzip format. > > TenDRA. Watcom. Intel. Lots of choices here. > > How many of these work on non-Intel hardware, such as Alpha or SPARC? TenDRA. CompaqCC. I coud probably find another no-cost one for the SPARC, if necessary. Frankly, I still think my original closing statement holds: the compiler is merely tactical software, not strategic. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 23:57:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3125137B401 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B6643FE1 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:57:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjii.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.82] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19W9ei-0000Lq-00; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:57:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3EFD3C27.EE4D1273@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:56:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030625214311.00e5e240@localhost> <20030626110336.GW34365@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030626122023.GB763@nitro.dk> <20030626124601.GB57378@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ea0508e1ba87435a9718b323a68968c2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 06:57:55 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > For most of the things you mention, they are included in > > "The Programmer's Workbench" from Bell Labs, which is now > > available for free download, including ksh93, awk, troff, > > etc.. > > > > Why not use the real things, if you are going to replace the > > GNU replacements? > > Maybe because AT&T's licenses are over the "onerous" threshold too. > Eg, ksh93's at http://www.research.att.com/sw/license/ast-open.html Get it under the new Plan 9 license from Plan 9 sources, instead. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 28 11:09:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B28337B401 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.acecape.com (mail1.acecape.com [66.114.74.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDB043FE3 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5SI9Khi029774 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 14:09:20 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 14:10:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Message-ID: <20030628140823.U95111@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: List of computer languages X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:09:22 -0000 Anyone knows of a URL with a list of different computer languages and perhaps the different benefits each one may have in certain type of applications?