From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 13:54:54 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:54:48 -0800
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@freebsd.org>
To: hubs@freebsd.org
Subject: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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In my never ending quest to find an alternate ftp site for "pkg_add -r",
I've tried many of our ftpX.freebsd.org mirrors.  The problem is the
mirrors only seem to be consistent for short periods of time.

As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.03.tgz
which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.

I am most concerned about ftp1-14.freebsd.org and ftp.<country> as those
are the "top level" mirrors.

Summary:    53 bad, 25 unknown problem, 57 good.

Bad sites:

ftp8.FreeBSD.org
ftp11.FreeBSD.org
ftp.au.FreeBSD.org
ftp.bg.FreeBSD.org
ftp.br.FreeBSD.org
ftp.cn.FreeBSD.org
ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org
ftp.es.FreeBSD.org
ftp.fr.FreeBSD.org
ftp.hk.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ie.FreeBSD.org
ftp.is.FreeBSD.org
ftp.isu.net.sa
ftp.nectec.or.th
ftp.nz.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ro.FreeBSD.org
ftp.sg.FreeBSD.org
ftp.sk.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ua.FreeBSD.org
ftp.za.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.br.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.dk.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.es.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.fr.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.ie.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.pl.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.pt.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.se.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.ua.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.za.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.au.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.dk.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.fi.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.kr.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.no.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.pt.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.uk.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.za.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.au.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.br.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.kr.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.uk.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.za.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.au.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.au.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.br.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.uk.FreeBSD.org
ftp7.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp7.tw.FreeBSD.org
ftp8.fr.FreeBSD.org

Unknown problem:
 
ftp4.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp7.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp.gr.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Bad hostname 'ftp.gr.FreeBSD.org'
ftp.hu.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: 
ftp.tw.FreeBSD.org skipped: 000 
ftp2.au.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp2.ca.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Bad hostname 'ftp2.ca.FreeBSD.org'
ftp2.cn.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp2.gr.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Bad hostname 'ftp2.gr.FreeBSD.org'
ftp2.it.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Bad hostname 'ftp2.it.FreeBSD.org'
ftp2.ru.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp2.sk.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Bad hostname 'ftp2.sk.FreeBSD.org'
ftp2.tw.FreeBSD.org changing directory pub/FreeBSD 000 
ftp3.cn.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Bad hostname 'ftp3.cn.FreeBSD.org'
ftp3.pl.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp3.tw.FreeBSD.org skipped: unexpected Net::FTP error
ftp3.ua.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp4.tw.FreeBSD.org skipped: unexpected Net::FTP error
ftp5.br.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp5.kr.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp5.tw.FreeBSD.org changing directory pub 000 
ftp5.ua.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp6.kr.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected
ftp9.tw.FreeBSD.org skipped: 000 

Good sites:

ftp.freebsd.org
ftp1.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.FreeBSD.org
ftp9.FreeBSD.org
ftp10.FreeBSD.org
ftp12.FreeBSD.org
ftp13.FreeBSD.org
ftp14.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ar.FreeBSD.org
ftp.at.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ca.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ch.FreeBSD.org
ftp.cz.FreeBSD.org
ftp.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ee.FreeBSD.org
ftp.fi.FreeBSD.org
ftp.it.FreeBSD.org
ftp.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp.kr.FreeBSD.org
ftp.lt.FreeBSD.org
ftp.nl.FreeBSD.org
ftp.no.FreeBSD.org
ftp.pl.FreeBSD.org
ftp.ru.FreeBSD.org
ftp.se.FreeBSD.org
ftp.uk.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.at.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.kr.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.nl.freebsd.org
ftp2.si.FreeBSD.org
ftp2.uk.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.br.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.es.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.fr.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.ie.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.ru.FreeBSD.org
ftp3.se.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp4.ru.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.de.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.fr.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.se.FreeBSD.org
ftp5.uk.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.fr.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp6.tw.FreeBSD.org
ftp7.br.FreeBSD.org
ftp7.jp.FreeBSD.org
ftp7.kr.FreeBSD.org
ftp8.tw.FreeBSD.org

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 15:54:27 2003
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From: Olafur Osvaldsson <oli@isnic.is>
To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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David,

On Sun, 09 Mar 2003, David O'Brien wrote:

> In my never ending quest to find an alternate ftp site for "pkg_add -r",
> I've tried many of our ftpX.freebsd.org mirrors.  The problem is the
> mirrors only seem to be consistent for short periods of time.
> 
> As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
> ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.03.tgz
> which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.
> 
> I am most concerned about ftp1-14.freebsd.org and ftp.<country> as those
> are the "top level" mirrors.
> 
> Summary:    53 bad, 25 unknown problem, 57 good.

Thank you for the notice, the problem at ftp.is.* has been fixed and I'm
syncing it now.

/Oli

-- 
Olafur Osvaldsson
Systems Administrator
Internet a Islandi hf.
Tel:   +354 525-5291
Email: oli@isnic.is

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 17:25:29 2003
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From: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>
To: David O'Brien <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>
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Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.org

On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, David O'Brien wrote:

> In my never ending quest to find an alternate ftp site for "pkg_add -r",
> I've tried many of our ftpX.freebsd.org mirrors.  The problem is the
> mirrors only seem to be consistent for short periods of time.
>
> As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
> ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.03.tgz
> which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.

the methodology of the way the packages tree is set out makes it
very difficult to provide a stable and uptodate mirror.  the freebsd
archive is one of the few that has a system which causes an entire package
tree to be rebuilt (and hence refetched) over and over again with
no ability to only fetch updated or changed packages and the packages trees
make up the bulk of the freebsd archive.

keeping that in mind, as well as the load this puts on bandwidth (how many
freebsd mirrors are there ? say 135 from below's stats) where at 6G for
this tree, that is almost a Terabyte of data that is pushed out in various
directions almost weekly for one tree.  would anyone say that there is even
half a terabyte of (compressed) code that is changing weekly ? or monthly..

i'd be happy to be proven wrong on this but i suspect it is one of the major
issues behind the impossibility of keeping an up to date mirror of the
packages tree, and this is made worse by having multiple architectures
and releases now, e.g packages-4-stable, packages-5-current for i386, alpha,
and eventually sparc64 and others.

here at ftp.au.freebsd.org i try and keep the packages-4-stable tree updated
once a week to once a fortnight.  it still takes most of a day - sometimes
3 or 4 days, to update one tree.


regards,

-jason

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 17:29:39 2003
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From: Will Andrews <will@csociety.org>
To: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>
Cc: hubs@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 11:25:25AM +1000, jason andrade wrote:
> the methodology of the way the packages tree is set out makes it
> very difficult to provide a stable and uptodate mirror.  the freebsd
> archive is one of the few that has a system which causes an entire package
> tree to be rebuilt (and hence refetched) over and over again with
> no ability to only fetch updated or changed packages and the packages trees
> make up the bulk of the freebsd archive.

Please tell us how other OS projects update their packages
without this kind of problem.  What do they do (or not do) that
we don't (or do)?

Regards,
-- 
wca

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 17:33:59 2003
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 11:25:25AM +1000, jason andrade wrote:

> the methodology of the way the packages tree is set out makes it
> very difficult to provide a stable and uptodate mirror.  the freebsd
> archive is one of the few that has a system which causes an entire package
> tree to be rebuilt (and hence refetched) over and over again with
> no ability to only fetch updated or changed packages and the packages trees
> make up the bulk of the freebsd archive.

I suspect you're wrong.  Can you provide supporting evidence?

Kris

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 17:38:58 2003
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From: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>
To: Will Andrews <will@csociety.org>
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Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Will Andrews wrote:

> Please tell us how other OS projects update their packages
> without this kind of problem.  What do they do (or not do) that
> we don't (or do)?

their release trees are structured differently.  i am not making
a judgement call here (i hear equal amounts of religious statements
on people who love freebsd's package management and other OSes
systems..) so please don't see any of this as my preference.


o redhat has a package management system that is built into the OS
  tree.  because the OS tree is quite "static" this lends itself well
  to a single fetch and then periodic (but much smaller) updates
  via a separate "update" tree.  packages that are not released via
  the OS are available via a separate "contrib" tree.  they have been
  less than good about keeping this updated but at least it does
  have some theoretical structure for how to add things later.

o debian has a system which divides the OS and packages into separate
  trees via "dist" and "pool".  the pool area changes a fair bit but
  only certain packages get rebuilt/updated - not the entire poo.

o a lot of smaller OSes have some combination of the above but again
  the main difference from FreeBSD would be that they only rebuild/release
  packages that have been updated or have been patched for security
  reasons.


i am making the assumption (that could well be completely wrong)
that the freebsd package trees are completely rebuilt for each
tree (packages-4-stable/packages-5-current) and architecture at
roughly the same interval (weekly?) necessitating a refetch of
the whole tree - is that correct ?

regards,

-jason

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 17:44:11 2003
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From: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
Cc: David O'Brien <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>, "" <hubs@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote:

> I suspect you're wrong.  Can you provide supporting evidence?

not really - i should try and go back to some logs we kept, but
most of the evidence was anecdotal by asking on this list how
package trees are maintained.

in any case, the up to dateness of mirrors is quite an important
issue and i guess worth pursuing.  a lot of the other projects
either have systems in place or are also looking at putting
systems in place to provide verification and feedback on
mirrors that fall out of date.  and (i am speaking out loud)
with the efforts in organizing a US master mirror, an EU
master mirror and possible one other, it is starting to again
look good for organizing tiers of mirrors to spread out the
load of updating and hopefully making it more reliable/faster.


we stopped updating the packages tree daily at one point where it
reached the stage that the first update was not completing before
the next one started to delete files already - this was some
months ago though.

regards,

-jason

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From: Will Andrews <will@csociety.org>
To: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>
Cc: Will Andrews <will@csociety.org>, hubs@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 11:38:54AM +1000, jason andrade wrote:
> their release trees are structured differently.  i am not making
> a judgement call here (i hear equal amounts of religious statements
> on people who love freebsd's package management and other OSes
> systems..) so please don't see any of this as my preference.

Right, I am not looking for a fight, just technical facts.

> o redhat has a package management system that is built into the OS
>   tree.  because the OS tree is quite "static" this lends itself well
>   to a single fetch and then periodic (but much smaller) updates
>   via a separate "update" tree.  packages that are not released via
>   the OS are available via a separate "contrib" tree.  they have been
>   less than good about keeping this updated but at least it does
>   have some theoretical structure for how to add things later.
> 
> o debian has a system which divides the OS and packages into separate
>   trees via "dist" and "pool".  the pool area changes a fair bit but
>   only certain packages get rebuilt/updated - not the entire poo.
> 
> o a lot of smaller OSes have some combination of the above but again
>   the main difference from FreeBSD would be that they only rebuild/release
>   packages that have been updated or have been patched for security
>   reasons.
> 
> 
> i am making the assumption (that could well be completely wrong)
> that the freebsd package trees are completely rebuilt for each
> tree (packages-4-stable/packages-5-current) and architecture at
> roughly the same interval (weekly?) necessitating a refetch of
> the whole tree - is that correct ?

I guess the reason for this is because, theoretically, the build
environment could change between builds, or if a package is
upgraded, it could affect code for packages that depend on that.

We build everything about daily for i386 and less frequently for
alpha, sparc64, and powerpc (in that order, I believe).  But
uploading only occurs when the upload job is run manually, and it
usually only happens about once a week or fortnight.

I guess what we could do is add some code to portbuild that only
builds things that have changed, but still allow for a manual
override for complete rebuilds (in case, e.g., we update the base
environment used in the builds).  This can probably reduce the
amount of package building done during each build and possibly
allow us to increase the update frequency without drastically
increasing the amount of mirroring needed (or just leaving it at
weekly updates and cron'ing that).

Regards,
-- 
wca

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 17:54:55 2003
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 11:44:08AM +1000, jason andrade wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote:
>=20
> > I suspect you're wrong.  Can you provide supporting evidence?
>=20
> not really - i should try and go back to some logs we kept, but
> most of the evidence was anecdotal by asking on this list how
> package trees are maintained.

The major difficulty in "only updating packages that have changed" is
identifying those packages.  You can't compare the tarballs because
there are all sorts of embedded timestamps in the tarball (and in
files like lib*.a).  I tried doing this once and it didn't actually
provide much benefit for all the extra work it causes, because the
majority of packages do change from build to build (e.g. because of
updated dependencies, changes to the base system that change the
generated code, etc).

Of course, it's not fair to compare FreeBSD to an OS that almost never
updates their packages (like Redhat).  The only case you mentioned in
your other mail that might compare is Debian.  I'd need to have more
information about their update strategy to make informed comment.  I
suspect it might come down to either not having the ability to rebuild
their entire package tree more frequently (i.e. lack of build cluster
resources), or a more conservative policy of how they choose to update
packages.

Kris

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On Sun, 09 Mar 2003, David O'Brien wrote:

> In my never ending quest to find an alternate ftp site for "pkg_add -r",
> I've tried many of our ftpX.freebsd.org mirrors.  The problem is the
> mirrors only seem to be consistent for short periods of time.
>
> As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
> ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.=
03.tg
z
> which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.
>
> I am most concerned about ftp1-14.freebsd.org and ftp.<country> as those
> are the "top level" mirrors.
>
> Summary:    53 bad, 25 unknown problem, 57 good.
> Bad sites:
[....]
> Unknown problem:
>
>ftp.tw.FreeBSD.org skipped: 000
>ftp2.tw.FreeBSD.org changing directory pub/FreeBSD 000

  [ Speaking for Taiwan local mirror sites ]

  I can fetch the bonie++ package and download it from ftp client in
ftp2.tw.FreeBSD.org, what does error code '000' mean? I know ftp2.tw has
a symbol link structure, pub/FreeBSD is linked to another partition.=20
Maybe it causes this kind of problems.

  For ftp.tw, yes. The newest bonie++ package doesn't exist :)

-Foxfair


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 18:45: 8 2003
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Some of the "unknown problems" could be bugs in the checking script or
in Net::FTP.

In particular, the "000" entries are timeouts:

ftp.tw.freebsd.org:
Net::FTP=GLOB(0x83ef520)>>> user anonymous
Net::FTP=GLOB(0x83ef520): Timeout at /home/fenner/bin/portftpcheck line 127

ftp2.tw.freebsd.org:
Net::FTP=GLOB(0x83aadec)>>> CWD pub
Net::FTP=GLOB(0x83aadec)<<< 250 OK. Current directory is /pub
Net::FTP=GLOB(0x83aadec)>>> CWD FreeBSD
Net::FTP=GLOB(0x83aadec): Timeout at /home/fenner/bin/portftpcheck line 169

I can't tell whether it's a Net::FTP bug or a portftpcheck bug that is
causing the "000" instead of "Timeout" message.  In any case, these
can only be taken as an indication of the quality of the network between
bento.freebsd.org and the server being tested.

  Bill

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Greetings,


On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:44:08 +1000 (EST), jason andrade wrote
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> 
> > I suspect you're wrong.  Can you provide supporting evidence?
> 
> not really - i should try and go back to some logs we kept, but
> most of the evidence was anecdotal by asking on this list how
> package trees are maintained.
> 
> in any case, the up to dateness of mirrors is quite an important
> issue and i guess worth pursuing.  a lot of the other projects
> either have systems in place or are also looking at putting
> systems in place to provide verification and feedback on
> mirrors that fall out of date.  and (i am speaking out loud)
> with the efforts in organizing a US master mirror, an EU
> master mirror and possible one other, it is starting to again
> look good for organizing tiers of mirrors to spread out the
> load of updating and hopefully making it more reliable/faster.
> 
> we stopped updating the packages tree daily at one point where it
> reached the stage that the first update was not completing before
> the next one started to delete files already - this was some
> months ago though.
> 
> regards,
> 
> -jason
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hubs" in the body of the message

I don't normally say too much around here but i thought i would throw in my
two cents. :-)

I took a quick look around to find out just how this was being done and i
couldn't find it.  So i'm going to do some assuming and make some suggestions.
 Assuming a full package build is normally just pushed out for distribution,
this would cause much unneeded bandwidth usage among all of the mirror sites.
 Wouldn't it be just better to maybe keep a record of the fingerprint of a
port and if it matched from the last build not send it out to the mirrors so
that only things that have been updated get pushed out?  The only problem with
this method is that it would slow down the build system a bit while it checks
the files.  Or maybe instead of just blindly building the entire collection
all the time, keep a database of the versions that have been built and only
build the ones that change.  There would have to be some extra checking in
there too to make sure that all dependacys affected by a version change of any
port also get rebuilt, but that method would probably work better as the build
system wouldn't have to work as hard all the time to churn out packages for
ports that rarely change.  And then just do a full build from time to time to
double check everything.

Just some ideas...
--
Chris Demers
admin@govital.net
www.govital.net
www.govitalhosting.com

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 23: 8:27 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:08:17 -0800
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
To: Chris Demers <admin@govital.net>
Cc: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>,
	Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>,
	David O'Brien <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>, hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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References: <20030309215448.GB30033@dragon.nuxi.com> <Pine.GSO.4.50.0303101116080.41-100000@luna.rtfmconsult.com> <20030310013355.GA70336@rot13.obsecurity.org> <Pine.GSO.4.50.0303101139360.41-100000@luna.rtfmconsult.com> <20030310064332.M84136@govital.net>
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 01:58:57AM -0500, Chris Demers wrote:

> I took a quick look around to find out just how this was being done and i
> couldn't find it.  So i'm going to do some assuming and make some suggestions.
>  Assuming a full package build is normally just pushed out for distribution,
> this would cause much unneeded bandwidth usage among all of the mirror sites.
>  Wouldn't it be just better to maybe keep a record of the fingerprint of a
> port and if it matched from the last build not send it out to the mirrors so
> that only things that have been updated get pushed out?  The only problem with
> this method is that it would slow down the build system a bit while it checks
> the files.  Or maybe instead of just blindly building the entire collection
> all the time, keep a database of the versions that have been built and only
> build the ones that change.  There would have to be some extra checking in
> there too to make sure that all dependacys affected by a version change of any
> port also get rebuilt, but that method would probably work better as the build
> system wouldn't have to work as hard all the time to churn out packages for
> ports that rarely change.  And then just do a full build from time to time to
> double check everything.

Not really practical..see my other mail.

Kris

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Sun Mar  9 23:26:30 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:26:11 -0800
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@xcllnt.net>
To: Chris Demers <admin@govital.net>
Cc: jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>,
	Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>,
	"David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>, hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 01:58:57AM -0500, Chris Demers wrote:
> 
> I took a quick look around to find out just how this was being done and i
> couldn't find it.  So i'm going to do some assuming and make some suggestions.
>  Assuming a full package build is normally just pushed out for distribution,
> this would cause much unneeded bandwidth usage among all of the mirror sites.
>  Wouldn't it be just better to maybe keep a record of the fingerprint of a
> port and if it matched from the last build not send it out to the mirrors so
> that only things that have been updated get pushed out?

Compilers put a timestamp in the object file. Rebuilding from identical
sources will yield a different object file.

With some wrapping and preprocessor magic, you should be able to compare
at the source level. The logic would work something like this:

Create a wrapper for cc(1) or c++(1) that runs the compiler as usual,
but also runs "cc -E" with the arguments passed to the wrapper. The
output of each "cc -E" is appended to a single file (call it port.src).
After the build has completed, you compare the current port.src with the
previous port.src and if they are equal then build system variation did
not affect this port and you can ignore the build. If they are different
then there's a possibility that the port is affected (no guarantees),
which means you redistribute to be on the safe side.

In practice this means that when we branch, bump the FreeBSD version
or upgrade the C compiler *all* packages are going to be redistributed.
This is what you want.

The penalty is minimal if the wrapper does it right (ie run cc -E to
a temporary file, append the temporary file to port.src and also use
it for the actual compilation).

-- 
 Marcel Moolenaar	  USPA: A-39004		 marcel@xcllnt.net

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  0:59:43 2003
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From: Andrew <andrew@ugh.net.au>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
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On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote:

> The major difficulty in "only updating packages that have changed" is
> identifying those packages.  You can't compare the tarballs because

Is it safe to use PORTVERSION? You'd still have to catch compiler updates
and the like with some other mechanism...

Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  1:47:22 2003
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 07:59:42PM +1100, Andrew wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote:
>=20
> > The major difficulty in "only updating packages that have changed" is
> > identifying those packages.  You can't compare the tarballs because
>=20
> Is it safe to use PORTVERSION? You'd still have to catch compiler updates
> and the like with some other mechanism...

Like I said, it's a lot of extra work and it doesn't buy you much in
reality.  Packages change too much when you rebuild them from scratch.

Kris

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  5:16: 3 2003
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On 9 Mar 2003 at 13:54, David O'Brien wrote:

> ftp.nz.FreeBSD.org

This site doesn't mirror all of the FTP repo because of bandwidth and 
space constraints.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  7: 3: 3 2003
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David O'Brien wrote:
> In my never ending quest to find an alternate ftp site for "pkg_add -r",
> I've tried many of our ftpX.freebsd.org mirrors.  The problem is the
> mirrors only seem to be consistent for short periods of time.
> 
> As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
> ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.03.tgz
> which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.
> 
> I am most concerned about ftp1-14.freebsd.org and ftp.<country> as those
> are the "top level" mirrors.
> 
> Summary:    53 bad, 25 unknown problem, 57 good.
> 
> Bad sites:
> 
> ftp4.br.FreeBSD.org

Not enough space for packages, as much as it pains me.

-- 
Daniel C. Sobral                   (8-DCS)
Gerencia de Operacoes
Divisao de Comunicacao de Dados
Coordenacao de Seguranca
TCO
Fones: 55-61-313-7654/Cel: 55-61-9618-0904
E-mail: Daniel.Capo@tco.net.br
         Daniel.Sobral@tcoip.com.br
         dcs@tcoip.com.br

Outros:
	dcs@newsguy.com
	dcs@freebsd.org
	capo@notorious.bsdconspiracy.net

Why don't you fix your little problem... and light this candle?
		-- Alan Shepherd, the first man into space, Gemini program


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  7:14:35 2003
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Cc: hubs@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, David O'Brien wrote:

> As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
> ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.03.tgz
> which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.
> I am most concerned about ftp1-14.freebsd.org and ftp.<country> as those
> are the "top level" mirrors.
>
> Bad sites:
>
> ftp.sg.FreeBSD.org

I sync from ftp.au, so I'll experience the same things as jason does.
Fully agree with his view though; syncing freebsd is usually more time
consuming than the other sites I mirror.


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From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:21:03 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <b4iagv$vfc$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <20030309215448.GB30033@dragon.nuxi.com> <Pine.GSO.4.50.0303101116080.41-100000@luna.rtfmconsult.com> <20030310012937.GA57178@procyon.firepipe.net>
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Will Andrews <will@csociety.org> wrote:

> Please tell us how other OS projects update their packages
> without this kind of problem.  What do they do (or not do) that
> we don't (or do)?

Accounting for different -stable/-current strategies, OpenBSD does
this just the same way as FreeBSD.  When I upload a new set of
OpenBSD i386 snapshot packages to the master, I wipe the old ones
and put the new ones there, all 1.4GB of them.  Since all the
packages are rebuilt, they will have changed anyway, at a minimum
due to the timestamps in the .tgz archives.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy@mips.inka.de


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  8:39: 1 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:38:54 -0800
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: Andrew <andrew@ugh.net.au>
Cc: Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>,
	jason andrade <jason@rtfmconsult.com>, hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 07:59:42PM +1100, Andrew wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> 
> > The major difficulty in "only updating packages that have changed" is
> > identifying those packages.  You can't compare the tarballs because
> 
> Is it safe to use PORTVERSION? You'd still have to catch compiler updates
> and the like with some other mechanism...

Nope.  Well maybe, but that isn't just the PORTVERSION of the package you
is under consideration, but also of *every* dependancy.

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Mon Mar 10  9: 9:28 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:08:38 +0200
From: Alexandr Kovalenko <never@nevermind.kiev.ua>
To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Poor state of some top-level FTP mirrors
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Hello, David O'Brien!

On Sun, Mar 09, 2003 at 01:54:48PM -0800, you wrote:

> In my never ending quest to find an alternate ftp site for "pkg_add -r",
> I've tried many of our ftpX.freebsd.org mirrors.  The problem is the
> mirrors only seem to be consistent for short periods of time.
> 
> As a simple test, the documented mirrors was polled for the file
> ftp://${SITE}/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-4-stable/All/bonnie++-1.93.03.tgz
> which was updated on ftp.freebsd.org 2-March-2003.
> 
> I am most concerned about ftp1-14.freebsd.org and ftp.<country> as those
> are the "top level" mirrors.
> 
> Summary:    53 bad, 25 unknown problem, 57 good.
> 
> Bad sites:
> 
[dd]
> ftp.ua.FreeBSD.org
[dd]
> ftp2.ua.FreeBSD.org

Those 2 above actually single site.

> Unknown problem:
>  
> ftp5.ua.FreeBSD.org skipped: Net::FTP: Socket is not connected

This one only offers access from Ukrain (due to high cost and slowness
of outer world link). 

> Good sites:
> 
> ftp7.br.FreeBSD.org
> ftp7.jp.FreeBSD.org
> ftp7.kr.FreeBSD.org

ftp7.ua.freebsd.org should be in this line. It is being updated hourly
from ftp-master.cz.freebsd.org (the .eu regional ftp-master for now).

-- 
NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food
Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group
http://uafug.org.ua/

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<<On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:38:54 -0800, "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG> said:

> Nope.  Well maybe, but that isn't just the PORTVERSION of the package you
> is under consideration, but also of *every* dependancy.

So diff the old and new INDEX files, and that should give the list of
all the packages that have meaningfully changed.

-GAWollman


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Looks like pdf version of handbook on ftp-master b0rken:

$ pwd
/pub/FreeBSD/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook
$ ls -la book.pdf.*
-r--r--r--  1 91  maildrop  275 Mar 11 08:04 book.pdf.bz2
-r--r--r--  1 91  maildrop  232 Mar 11 08:04 book.pdf.gz
-r--r--r--  1 91  maildrop  362 Mar 11 08:04 book.pdf.zip

-- 
NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food
Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group
http://uafug.org.ua/


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Fri Mar 14  7:50: 9 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 07:50:16 -0800
From: Will Froning <wfroning@uop.edu>
To: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org
Subject: Connection refused for cvsup
Message-Id: <20030314075016.4411520e.wfroning@uop.edu>
Organization: OISR, University of the Pacific
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Not sure if this is the correct place to ask, so sorry if it isn't.

I've noticed that sometime this week my local cvsup mirror for my
University stopped updating.  After trying all the USA hosts I still
have no joy.

It seems that 138.9/16 has been blacklisted, or is that not done?  If
we aren't BL'd, then I'll get to have a talk with those networking guys
(always messing with stuff).

Thanks for any help on this, and please CC me on the reply.

Will

-- 
Will Froning
Unix Sys. Admin.
University of the Pacific
wfroning@uop.edu

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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Fri Mar 14 12:51:57 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:51:30 +0100
From: Bernd Walter <ticso@cicely9.cicely.de>
To: Will Froning <wfroning@uop.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Connection refused for cvsup
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On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 07:50:16AM -0800, Will Froning wrote:
> Not sure if this is the correct place to ask, so sorry if it isn't.
> 
> I've noticed that sometime this week my local cvsup mirror for my
> University stopped updating.  After trying all the USA hosts I still
> have no joy.
> 
> It seems that 138.9/16 has been blacklisted, or is that not done?  If
> we aren't BL'd, then I'll get to have a talk with those networking guys
> (always messing with stuff).

There are no centralised access lists.
It's more likely that a missconfigured local firewall drops your
connect.

-- 
B.Walter                   BWCT                http://www.bwct.de
ticso@bwct.de                                  info@bwct.de


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From owner-freebsd-hubs  Fri Mar 14 12:59: 4 2003
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:58:37 -0300
To: ticso@cicely.de
Cc: Will Froning <wfroning@uop.edu>, freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Connection refused for cvsup
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From: jonny@jonny.eng.br (Joao Carlos Mendes Luis)
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Somebody told me that Bernd Walter said:
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 07:50:16AM -0800, Will Froning wrote:
> > Not sure if this is the correct place to ask, so sorry if it isn't.
> > 
> > I've noticed that sometime this week my local cvsup mirror for my
> > University stopped updating.  After trying all the USA hosts I still
> > have no joy.
> > 
> > It seems that 138.9/16 has been blacklisted, or is that not done?  If
> > we aren't BL'd, then I'll get to have a talk with those networking guys
> > (always messing with stuff).
> 
> There are no centralised access lists.
> It's more likely that a missconfigured local firewall drops your
> connect.

Try passive mode, -P -

But if the default does not work, I really doubt this would work also.
Try to check the local firewall access to external TCP port 5999...

					Jonny

-- 
João Carlos Mendes Luís			jonny@jonny.eng.br
  Networking Engineer			jonny@coe.ufrj.br

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