From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:27:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8025C16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ninja.terrabionic.com (ninja.terrabionic.com [213.187.181.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E671643D48; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johann@terrabionic.com) Received: by ninja.terrabionic.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8D7633C; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 From: jsha To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD ninja.terrabionic.com 5.3-STABLE i386 X-Location: Bergen, Norway, Europe Subject: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:36 -0000 --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByqujeF7Rq67IV2wRAlKUAKCl2+j0nGxHSCaA6vVuaKHmWS329ACg38yh cyKa7Mugay7SWji/RX22aIk= =zolu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:54:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBAE716A4D0 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80C643D5A for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bdaniel7@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id y7so129430rne for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MvORpV7z2gniQZSx2P/HR7rVn2vOxqzlh6fiuDbpk/6hF1ovLVKoEyyDub83qcyWSlMPW8YgTWJkvOdiQAXz9mou6WRFG/eeSCpxcxbCiHfAuktHtMlwUrrHVZya8OScqLH3iPUEZRZIXwhmCQgn4IrLcgVmLChjcaplESkaPfs= Received: by 10.39.3.42 with SMTP id f42mr476819rni; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.104.1 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:54:31 +0200 From: Daniel Blendea To: jsha In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Blendea List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:34 -0000 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. thank you for reading and please excuse my excited tone, Daniel On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100, jsha wrote: > > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:59:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB86E16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 274EB43D53; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=37569 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChRcm-0004sS-Qk; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:59:20 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:3889 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChRcl-0006DC-Bq; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:59:19 +0100 Message-ID: <41CAB316.1020107@sitetronics.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:59:18 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:25 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. For future reference, arch and www probably weren't the right lists to send this to. I've removed them from my response. Please read the archives of advocacy and pay careful attention to my posts on the subject of updating the site. Please read other archives and posts for information about the installer. The FreeBSD foundation should be the only entity to have ``official'' letterhead, since it's the only official sponsor of the project, in that sense. You don't know that your work won't go in vain and here's why: 1) Lots of people are fine with it the way it is, 2) There are lots of sites that are simple. Checked google.com or sun.com lately? Linux.org? 3) This has been tried before. I tried to organize it. It didn't work. If you're really interested, do some work and please post here when you have a result. All the topics you have mentioned have been discussed to death, and the consensus is do it first, talk later. I think it's best to let this dead beast lie. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:59:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F96F16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E31043D53 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon.burke@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 67so965wri for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=E8vkXHnY0hs/WazyQ2cIR8TY1tCZJtsplHgeHiTxfF3nndXJyEPboxs6DEnpQKw3+a/datvLGKAn5zA0oKzEY6zdx8lVLHfe6H11R44xnhBBVxDUqD7zFGrYn6GHK2YBaiRaiYz6N5Trgk3hW9hcoz6DAJGKUIFyALJBxYEtYx4= Received: by 10.54.6.55 with SMTP id 55mr5892wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.11.57 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:29 +0000 From: Simon Burke In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Simon Burke List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:32 -0000 > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I would like to know how you assume that he is a representation of evil, ok he looks like a little devil char but there is more than one definition of a devil and besides he looks kind of cute. So the logo/mascot has been around a while but that doesnt warrant change. If it does then most companies in the world need to update their logos too. Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD would no longer be such a great operating system. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Granted the installer is not the best installer around, but the main point is that it does the job and it is pretty easy to follow in my opinion anyway. Also there are a couple of projects to my knowledge that are aiming to improve it. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) -- Theres no place like ::1 Thanks, SimonB From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:30:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B1416A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:30:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F4943D41 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:30:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Sigmascape1@cs.com) Received: from Sigmascape1@cs.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.24.66ef223a (16109) for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cs.com (mow-m09.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.137]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILINID121-3eed41caba6f1bc; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:30:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:30:39 -0500 From: Sigmascape1@cs.com To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 65.82.194.242 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:30:47 -0000 I think the daemon is totally cool, and should not be changed. If you want to 'pretty FreeBSD up," I would suggest, if anything, a revamped set of marketing collateral. The website itself is solid, I have no real issues with it. The marketing material I am thinking of is web-based and print-based. FreeBSD could benefit greatly from some PDFs a person could download and distribute to potential users. Thanks. MLF www.sigmascape.com >Hello. > >I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts >on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes >and users to the rest of the world. > >Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time >for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. >The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its >modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the >way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it >compared to other open source operating systems. > >1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks >   like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years >   ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very >   disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > >2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >   website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >   purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >   could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >   ugly. > >3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved >   by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than >   previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > >4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >   available to all that support this project. > >How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work >on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we >produce the most magnificent result? > >Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > >Sincerely, >Johann Manaf Tepstad >-- >j. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:43:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1564E16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailserv1.neuroflux.com (ns2.neuroflux.com [204.228.228.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C84F43D5D for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: (qmail 5729 invoked by uid 89); 23 Dec 2004 12:40:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www2.neuroflux.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 12:40:58 -0000 Received: from 63.231.157.250 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ryans@gamersimpact.com); by www2.neuroflux.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <49467.63.231.157.250.1103805658.squirrel@63.231.157.250> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Ryan Sommers" To: "jsha" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:23 -0000 Going to reply to the whole thread so far. jsha said: > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years Although I don't like the tone of the other replies, I agree with their sentiment, beasty is as much a part of FreeBSD as the family dog is a part of the family. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. I don't think the website is all that ugly, personally, however, a new design isn't out of the question. So long as content and navigation is somewhat preserved. I've found certain things difficult to find again when I remember that I saw them somewhere, and I've been using FreeBSD for 7 years now. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. This is on many people's minds, including my own. Now that the holidays are upon us I'm going to try and spend a little of my free time working on putting my ideas into code. Or, I might look again at FreeBSDIE and bsdinstaller and seeing what it would take to bring them into the tree. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behing a business card. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > If you feel it needs to be done, and you would like to work on it, more power to you! Come up with a concept design and submit it for review. I think there are definite improvments to be made in the eyes of the new-comer. I believe there is a www@ team is there not? Might try posting to that list and see what you come up with. FreeBSD survives off people spending time where they see fit. If web-dev and graphic arts is your thing and you want to contribute, I for one will give you the time to submit my opinion of your work. Daniel Blendea said: > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > the logo would change; > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. > > 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a > fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think > about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on > software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is > related to FreeBSD > > 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get > to install it eyes- closed.. This is hardly the way to represent and argument. There is no need to be profane at someone for expressing their ideas to aid the project. It should be encouraged. Others, please don't feed the troll. Simon Burke said: > Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent > all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD > would no longer be such a great operating system. The code developers don't have to spend time on web-dev and graphics. But if there is a willing body that might not be able to work on the code but has talent in the user-interface, web-development, and graphic arts field, why not let them give their time to the project in a manner that fits their skills? Please don't bash or make light of those that contribute things other than code. Rock on doc@ team. Code or not you've done a great job. It takes many skillsets to develop and maintain a tool such as FreeBSD code is just one of them. -- Ryan Sommers ryans@gamersimpact.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:49:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB5316A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:49:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660D443D49 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:49:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1ChSP4-0002nf-00; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:49:14 -0800 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:49:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: jsha In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:49:34 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, jsha wrote: > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. Someone made a template of a new FreeBSD site -- not to replace current site but to be used for marketing purposes. It looked nice to me. Search the freebsd-advocacy archives over the past 12 months or so to find the URL. Jeremy C. Reed technical support & remote administration http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:58:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955A516A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:58:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from a.mx.aegisnet.de (a.mx.aegisnet.de [213.238.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E8F43D46 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:58:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (qmail 74128 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 12:58:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www.aegisnet.biz) ([213.238.36.211]) (envelope-sender ) by a.mx.aegisnet.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Dec 2004 12:58:42 -0000 Received: from 212.202.153.78 (SquirrelMail authenticated user cz@aegisnet.biz) by www.aegisnet.biz with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:58:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <34514.212.202.153.78.1103806722.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> In-Reply-To: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> References: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:58:42 +0100 (CET) From: "Carsten Zimmermann" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:58:24 -0000 Hello - While I agree that Beastie is totally cute and thus cool, I also understand that people new to BSD might connect it with `evil´. I read the chapter about daemons in mythology. But this chapter is not exactly what you start with once you get to know BSD. Nevertheless, Beastie must not be exchanged! :) The website: The website is fine. It serves its purpose as stated before. But imagine being a network technician convincing your employer to move applications to The Great OS. I think the current FreeBSD website pretty much suggests as FreeBSD being a `geek´ project. It can't be our aim that FreeBSD is considered unserious, FreeBSD definately needs trusting companies to raise its market penetration. And company's stake holders are (most often) easily tempted by visual impressions. Thus, the website itself is the primary marketing material in my eyes and I think there is great need of redesigning it in the midterm view. That much from me, Carsten Sigmascape1@cs.com sagte: > I think the daemon is totally cool, and should not be changed. If you want > to 'pretty FreeBSD up," I would suggest, if anything, a revamped set of > marketing collateral. The website itself is solid, I have no real issues > with it. The marketing material I am thinking of is web-based and > print-based. FreeBSD could benefit greatly from some PDFs a person could > download and distribute to potential users. > > Thanks. > > MLF > > www.sigmascape.com > > > >>Hello. >> >>I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts >>on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes >>and users to the rest of the world. >> >>Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time >>for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. >>The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its >>modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the >>way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it >>compared to other open source operating systems. >> >>1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks >> like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years >> ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very >> disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. >> >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >> ugly. >> >>3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved >> by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than >> previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. >> >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >> available to all that support this project. >> >>How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work >>on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we >>produce the most magnificent result? >> >>Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) >> >>Sincerely, >>Johann Manaf Tepstad >>-- >>j. >> > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Carsten Zimmermann mailto:cz@aegisnet.biz Aegis:Net IT-Dienstleistungen Postfach 620371 22403 Hamburg http://www.aegisnet.biz Info: +49-(0)700-AEGISNET From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 13:29:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD45516A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:29:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6561743D45; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:29:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=47464 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChT20-0002Ph-Fm; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:29:28 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:4167 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChT1z-00058D-Aw; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:29:27 +0100 Message-ID: <41CAC836.1080402@sitetronics.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:29:26 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Zimmermann References: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> <34514.212.202.153.78.1103806722.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> In-Reply-To: <34514.212.202.153.78.1103806722.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:29:39 -0000 Carsten Zimmermann wrote: > Hello - [snip] > The website: The website is fine. It serves its purpose as stated before. > But imagine being a network technician convincing your employer to move > applications to The Great OS. I think the current FreeBSD website pretty > much suggests as FreeBSD being a `geek´ project. It can't be our aim that > FreeBSD is considered unserious, FreeBSD definately needs trusting > companies to raise its market penetration. And company's stake holders are > (most often) easily tempted by visual impressions. Thus, the website > itself is the primary marketing material in my eyes and I think there is > great need of redesigning it in the midterm view. > > That much from me, > Carsten > [snip] I really hate to have to say this in such a crude way, but this discussion has always and will always boil down to this: put up, or shut up. There are a LOT of goals that have been set for this project, and nobody has ever stepped up to help do them. Don't know what to do? The thread's really in the archive, go check it out! Other ideas to discuss? Put a bit of energy behind it and do the things instead of discussing them. Again, sorry for the coarseness, but people never seem to understand this when this subject is brought up. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 13:34:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBB216A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk (freebsd.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.249.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C132543D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@mx1.originative.co.uk) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981CE15596; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 85128-04; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B5DE015639; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 From: Paul Richards To: Daniel Blendea Message-ID: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:54 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 01:54:31PM +0200, Daniel Blendea wrote: > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > the logo would change; > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. Ignoring the whole beastie thing, because we've just done that whole issue, I think someone with skills other than coding taking an interest in our public image would be a good thing. >From a business perspective we look amateurish. Lots of people here don't seem to care about the outside world which reinforces the opinion that we've become a hobby OS project now. If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we need to have the right image. Paul. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 13:49:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A7216A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:49:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DAB43D31 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:49:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bdaniel7@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id y7so148622rne for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:49:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EOjbRjkXWwbVWioDSJxK0CZRqEIT1O6/Eq4jhWV1iSbpR8s+kBszyGLJHvEwQ+k0XuialLZCNfWIQIDPSsYKqM0nGylKU1nAVYg4LZNT3w+WZyjkTRD3yKCxQxFhhM9GbcmaUxVrfmHgYQb4EXM6tNTeapOzdQg+zWV63vBmQzo= Received: by 10.38.209.72 with SMTP id h72mr9260rng; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.104.1 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:49:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <89b41e470412230549417d2584@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:49:32 +0200 From: Daniel Blendea In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Blendea List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:49:33 -0000 :) why not send a mail like the one that started the thread to RedHat and suggest to change their 'old' red hat logo, or to linux community to drop the penguin...;) On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 01:54:31PM +0200, Daniel Blendea wrote: > > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > > the logo would change; > > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. > > Ignoring the whole beastie thing, because we've just done that whole > issue, I think someone with skills other than coding taking an > interest in our public image would be a good thing. > > From a business perspective we look amateurish. > > Lots of people here don't seem to care about the outside world which > reinforces the opinion that we've become a hobby OS project now. > If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we > need to have the right image. > > > Paul. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 13:56:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC7116A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:56:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094E543D53; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:56:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.133] (port=50244 helo=smtp2.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChTSU-0000TW-4h; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:56:50 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:4233 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChTSS-000359-JH; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:56:48 +0100 Message-ID: <41CACEA0.8030704@sitetronics.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:56:48 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CACA1F.4010801@sitetronics.com> <20041223134801.GD786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041223134801.GD786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:56:53 -0000 Hello, all I've scrounged up the archives of the thread the last time it was brought up, in March of 2004, when I called to initiate development for such a project. It would have been done in-hand with core@. The response was surprisingly low and the people who offered to contribute didn't really have enough time to do anything. http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/htdig/freebsd-advocacy/2004-March/thread.html#1163 The whole thing, including what FreeBSD wants (as a group of people, as the foundation, and as the core developers), is listed in this thread. Everybody: PLEASE READ THIS before you continue speculating on what may or may not be good. Do you have time? Great, my offer is still open to help coordinate, although I have less time for such things these days, so if you're interested, you need to be self-motivated. And you need to have time. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 15:12:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6038D16A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:12:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from a.mx.aegisnet.de (a.mx.aegisnet.de [213.238.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9E943D54 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:12:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (qmail 76487 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 15:13:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de) ([80.171.62.248]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 23 Dec 2004 15:13:07 -0000 Received: from galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iBNFClnp000930; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:12:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (from czimmer@localhost)iBNFCQOT000928; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:12:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) X-Authentication-Warning: galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de: czimmer set sender to cz@aegisnet.biz using -f Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:12:26 +0100 From: Carsten Zimmermann To: "Devon H. O'Dell" Message-ID: <20041223151226.GA721@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> References: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> <34514.212.202.153.78.1103806722.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> <41CAC836.1080402@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CAC836.1080402@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:12:47 -0000 --BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Devon - I understand that this thread might be heavily annoying to those who are reading doc@ and advocacy@ for decades now. I admit I am too lazy to search the mail archives of these last X decades before I reply to a living thread (I use to do so when I _start_ a thread which might have been discussed in the past). I have no bad consciousness with that, I'm=20 sorry. I don't share your point of view that past discussions should not be re-heated just because there was no evident conclusion the last time. Who knows if there aren't any parameters changed which could lead to something this time? In contrast to that, your harsh comments are=20 probably suffocating exactly this. To my mind, the posting of the URL in the archives, which was very helpful, indeed, at an earlier point in this thread would have done a lot more! Me, I am no FreeBSD sourcecode jockey by now nor am I a webdesigner. I'm a FreeBSD adocate and maybe some sort of potential doc-writer. But that doesn't matter either - I USE FreeBSD and this makes me, FreeBSD being a community driven project, a stake-holder who wants to take part on this discussion. And there's many to which the above applies! I am willing to help, be it through actually commiting patches, templates, (...) or just through _opinion_. Conscensus was that there is hardly anyone who wants to have a lot of work (and spent free-time) sacrificed just because nobody seems to want what has been produced in the end.=20 These people should be backed and encouraged through community's _opinion_. That's why it is just right to continue this thread even though it has been discussed *a lot* in the past. Maybe it concludes to something _this_ time.=20 I agree, however, that those contributing to this thread should take advantage of the past discussion: we don't need to reinvent the wheel every halt a year... But this can only be achieved if the people who know it's been discussed before - people like you - give polite hints on where to find the information. regards, Carsten Am Thu Dec 23, 2004 at 02:2926PM +0100 schrieb Devon H. O'Dell: > Carsten Zimmermann wrote: > >Hello - > [snip] > >The website: The website is fine. It serves its purpose as stated before. > >But imagine being a network technician convincing your employer to move > >applications to The Great OS. I think the current FreeBSD website pretty > >much suggests as FreeBSD being a `geek? project. It can't be our aim that > >FreeBSD is considered unserious, FreeBSD definately needs trusting > >companies to raise its market penetration. And company's stake holders a= re > >(most often) easily tempted by visual impressions. Thus, the website > >itself is the primary marketing material in my eyes and I think there is > >great need of redesigning it in the midterm view. > > > >That much from me, > >Carsten > > > [snip] >=20 > I really hate to have to say this in such a crude way, but this=20 > discussion has always and will always boil down to this: put up, or shut = up. >=20 > There are a LOT of goals that have been set for this project, and nobody= =20 > has ever stepped up to help do them. Don't know what to do? The thread's= =20 > really in the archive, go check it out! >=20 > Other ideas to discuss? Put a bit of energy behind it and do the things= =20 > instead of discussing them. >=20 > Again, sorry for the coarseness, but people never seem to understand=20 > this when this subject is brought up. >=20 > Kind regards, >=20 > Devon H. O'Dell --=20 Carsten Zimmermann mailto:cz@aegisnet.biz Aegis:Net IT-Dienstleistungen Postfach 620371 22403 Hamburg http://www.aegisnet.biz Info: +49-(0)700-AEGISNET --BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByuBaucbzqiAxJVkRAqZjAKDpD9k5tuUGQMuame7lBwqbe8IcLwCfWCK3 pjt6atP8z4OALiYr/jo2m/4= =lTCY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 15:22:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480FC16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:22:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFADF43D39; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:22:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=54813 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChUnO-0000dO-C3; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:22:30 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:4467 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChUnN-0008UD-4Q; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:22:29 +0100 Message-ID: <41CAE2B4.6010004@sitetronics.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:22:28 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Zimmermann References: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> <34514.212.202.153.78.1103806722.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> <41CAC836.1080402@sitetronics.com> <20041223151226.GA721@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> In-Reply-To: <20041223151226.GA721@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:22:34 -0000 Carsten Zimmermann wrote: > Dear Devon - > > I understand that this thread might be heavily annoying to those who are > reading doc@ and advocacy@ for decades now. I admit I am too lazy to > search the mail archives of these last X decades before I reply to a > living thread (I use to do so when I _start_ a thread which might have > been discussed in the past). I have no bad consciousness with that, I'm > sorry. > > I don't share your point of view that past discussions should not be > re-heated just because there was no evident conclusion the last time. > Who knows if there aren't any parameters changed which could lead to > something this time? In contrast to that, your harsh comments are > probably suffocating exactly this. To my mind, the posting of the URL in > the archives, which was very helpful, indeed, at an earlier point in this > thread would have done a lot more! I agree, it sure would have. I didn't have enough time to dig it up, though :). I'm certainly willing to accept that things are different this time around. Last time, there was a partial commitment from a designer from a fairly high class web design company who had expressed an interest in doing a new site, assuming that the work would be tax-deductable. The short answer is that it is. It will just take a good bit of work and a good bit of collaboration. Are there companies that have the time to work for free, given a tax break? Probably. I don't know who they are, though. I encourage those to step up who might fit the description above. I'd like to make it clear that it's pretty vital that the people who do the page should have past experience in the field of design and art. There are plenty of people in the age range of 14 to 25 who have time and experience with webpages (and I think everybody has experience with webpages), but I do believe there is merit in finding someone with an acclaimed professional and / or an educational background in the area. > Me, I am no FreeBSD sourcecode jockey by now nor am I a webdesigner. I'm > a FreeBSD adocate and maybe some sort of potential doc-writer. But that > doesn't matter either - I USE FreeBSD and this makes me, FreeBSD being a > community driven project, a stake-holder who wants to take part on this > discussion. And there's many to which the above applies! Indeed. > I am willing to help, be it through actually commiting patches, > templates, (...) or just through _opinion_. Conscensus was that there is > hardly anyone who wants to have a lot of work (and spent free-time) > sacrificed just because nobody seems to want what has been produced in > the end. > > These people should be backed and encouraged through community's > _opinion_. That's why it is just right to continue this thread even > though it has been discussed *a lot* in the past. Maybe it concludes to > something _this_ time. I encourage everybody with skills to contribute. But please do understand that all work that has been done in the past was simply ``not good enough.'' > I agree, however, that those contributing to this thread should take > advantage of the past discussion: we don't need to reinvent the wheel > every halt a year... But this can only be achieved if the people who > know it's been discussed before - people like you - give polite hints on > where to find the information. Indeed. If you've got any questions as to where we got off-list at the time, please feel free to send me an email. I'm somewhat jaded on the subject though, since I did spend a good while brainstorming and coordinating and those who had given commitment didn't follow through. > regards, > Carsten Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell [snip] From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:26:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B59916A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B71043D1F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBNGUErP089435; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:30:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41CAF174.4020309@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:25:24 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=3.8 tests=SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on pooker.samsco.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:38 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. > If you have the time, desire, and talent to address these issues, I'd love to see the results. I'd caution about being inflamatory in your first statement, though. The logo was definitely not done by a 10 yr old with PSPro, and it has emotional significance to many people. I'd definitely like to see what your ideas are for a replacement. Scott From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:28:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5D316A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from athena.softcardsystems.com (mail.softcardsystems.com [12.34.136.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C8C43D53; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sah@softcardsystems.com) Received: from athena (athena [12.34.136.114])iBNHN5fX030259; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:23:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:23:05 -0500 (EST) From: Sam X-X-Sender: sah@athena To: Paul Richards In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:50 -0000 > If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we > need to have the right image. Look ma, a strawman! The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own "image," installer, system config style, etc. More importantly for the "commercial world," though, they offer support and certification. The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large portions of the kernel, but I digress). Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work for the core project you can still make your own distro and release it. Give it a shot! Cheers, Sam From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:37:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CBA16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nic-naa.net (nic-naa.net [216.220.241.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F4843D5A; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNCcWCl004127; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:38:32 GMT (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200412231238.iBNCcWCl004127@nic-naa.net> To: jsha In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100." <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:38:32 +0000 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: brunner@nic-naa.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:53 -0000 > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. representations are secondary to function. there are markets for which this relationship is inverted. cost of entry is in the mid-eight-figure range. > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. code is art, and feelings are nice. please fix ebcdic first. unicode too. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. modernity is overrated. > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks dumb. > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. who, other than you, cares? > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. break your own website please. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. break your own loader please. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. if i give you one will you agree to do something useful? > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? most likely. its troll's fate. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:47:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E7A16A4D2 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941B843D49 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBNGpEPF089509; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:51:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41CAF660.6050000@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:46:24 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=3.8 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on pooker.samsco.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:57 -0000 Sam wrote: >> If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we >> need to have the right image. > > > Look ma, a strawman! > > The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros > solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own > "image," installer, system config style, etc. More importantly > for the "commercial world," though, they offer support and > certification. > > The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, > I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, > then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large > portions of the kernel, but I digress). > > Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work > for the core project you can still make your own distro > and release it. Give it a shot! > > Cheers, > > Sam The distro - vs - core release relationship is one of BSD's greatest strengths and weaknesses. It's a strength because there is no 'distro hell' like there is in linux. When you download FreeBSD, you get the same FreeBSD as everyone else; there is no confusion over how the config files are layed out, no differences in the base utilities, everything compiles the same way, etc. That is a huge benefit. But at the same time, it makes it really hard for people to branch out and experiment in the same way that a linux distro can. FreeSBIE is a good example of this happening and working, but it definitely has hurdles. Variety and competition makes the whole stronger, and at times FreeBSD seems a bit in-bred. To address this, I'm playing with ideas for changing the nature of a FreeBSD 'release' a bit to make it easier for outfits like FreeSBIE to build on top of it. Hopefully I'll have something to show for this in 6.0. Scott From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:48:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E7116A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp04.eresmas.com (asmtp04.eresmas.com [62.81.235.144]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D29F43D45; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ea1abz@wanadoo.es) Received: from [192.168.108.59] (helo=mx01.eresmas.com) by asmtp04.eresmas.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChW8t-0001PO-BR; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:47 +0100 Received: from [80.103.47.197] (helo=[80.103.47.197]) by mx01.eresmas.com with asmtp (Exim 4.41) id 1ChW8l-0006ML-8q; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:46 +0100 Message-ID: <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:54 +0100 From: Ramiro Aceves User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:51 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. I am new to FreeBSD, only one month of use or so. I come from Debian GNU/Linux world and only want to say some toughts: > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. The WEB is great!, I like WEBs with no images moving around! Debian WEB (www.debian.org) and FreeBSD WEB pages are simliar in aesthetics and I feel confortable. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. The instalation program is reasonably good , once you do a couple of installs you can do it without thinking too much. Enjoy FreeBSD. Ramiro. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:07:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590D716A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from orchid.homeunix.org (awl227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.27.71.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6063243D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (blackacidevil.orchid.homeunix.org [192.168.1.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by orchid.homeunix.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNH44ww039913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:07:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org) Message-ID: <41CAFA83.4020300@orchid.homeunix.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:04:03 +0100 From: Karol Kwiatkowski User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ramiro Aceves References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> In-Reply-To: <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/639/Wed Dec 22 15:09:50 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on orchid.homeunix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:28 -0000 Ramiro Aceves wrote: > jsha wrote: >> 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks >> like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years >> ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very >> disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the devil. It's a daemon. BSD Daemon. "Many people equate the word ``daemon'' with the word ``demon,'' implying some kind of Satanic connection between UNIX and the underworld. This is an egregious misunderstanding. ``Daemon'' is actually a much older form of ``demon''; daemons have no particular bias towards good or evil, but rather serve to help define a person's character or personality. The ancient Greeks' concept of a ``personal daemon'' was similar to the modern concept of a ``guardian angel'' --- ``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons." quote from: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html Regards, Karol -- Karol Kwiatkowski From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:07:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B1016A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from S1.cableone.net (smtp1.cableone.net [24.116.0.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227DC43D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.123.89]) by S1.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S1) with ESMTP id 5246072 for multiple; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:08:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:06:48 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Carsten Zimmermann Message-ID: <20041223110648.73d0cfbc@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223151226.GA721@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> References: <39703F0F.4E843084.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> <34514.212.202.153.78.1103806722.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> <41CAC836.1080402@sitetronics.com> <20041223151226.GA721@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 0, First 15, in=22, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 24.119.123.89 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:51 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:12:26 +0100 Carsten Zimmermann wrote: > Dear Devon - > > I understand that this thread might be heavily annoying to those who > are reading doc@ and advocacy@ for decades now. I admit I am too > lazy to search the mail archives of these last X decades before I > reply to a living thread (I use to do so when I _start_ a thread > which might have been discussed in the past). I have no bad > consciousness with that, I'm sorry. >From what I remember, there was a some what definite conclusion, but nothing was ever done. The conclusion was basically this, making a real attractive site to business people would be nice, but not doing it to freebsd.org, but instead creating a freebsd.com or the like for it. > I don't share your point of view that past discussions should not be > re-heated just because there was no evident conclusion the last > time. Who knows if there aren't any parameters changed which could > lead to something this time? In contrast to that, your harsh > comments are probably suffocating exactly this. To my mind, the > posting of the URL in the archives, which was very helpful, indeed, > at an earlier point in this thread would have done a lot more! > > Me, I am no FreeBSD sourcecode jockey by now nor am I a webdesigner. > I'm a FreeBSD adocate and maybe some sort of potential doc-writer. > But that doesn't matter either - I USE FreeBSD and this makes me, > FreeBSD being a community driven project, a stake-holder who wants > to take part on this discussion. And there's many to which the above > applies! > > I am willing to help, be it through actually commiting patches, > templates, (...) or just through _opinion_. Conscensus was that > there is hardly anyone who wants to have a lot of work (and spent > free-time) sacrificed just because nobody seems to want what has > been produced in the end. > > These people should be backed and encouraged through community's > _opinion_. That's why it is just right to continue this thread even > though it has been discussed *a lot* in the past. Maybe it concludes > to something _this_ time. > > I agree, however, that those contributing to this thread should take > advantage of the past discussion: we don't need to reinvent the > wheel every halt a year... But this can only be achieved if the > people who know it's been discussed before - people like you - give > polite hints on where to find the information. > > regards, > Carsten > > Am Thu Dec 23, 2004 at 02:2926PM +0100 schrieb Devon H. O'Dell: > > Carsten Zimmermann wrote: > > >Hello - > > [snip] > > >The website: The website is fine. It serves its purpose as stated > > >before. But imagine being a network technician convincing your > > >employer to move applications to The Great OS. I think the > > >current FreeBSD website pretty much suggests as FreeBSD being a > > >`geek? project. It can't be our aim that FreeBSD is considered > > >unserious, FreeBSD definately needs trusting companies to raise > > >its market penetration. And company's stake holders are(most > > >often) easily tempted by visual impressions. Thus, the website > > >itself is the primary marketing material in my eyes and I think > > >there is great need of redesigning it in the midterm view. > > > > > >That much from me, > > >Carsten > > > > > [snip] > > > > I really hate to have to say this in such a crude way, but this > > discussion has always and will always boil down to this: put up, > > or shut up. > > > > There are a LOT of goals that have been set for this project, and > > nobody has ever stepped up to help do them. Don't know what to do? > > The thread's really in the archive, go check it out! > > > > Other ideas to discuss? Put a bit of energy behind it and do the > > things instead of discussing them. > > > > Again, sorry for the coarseness, but people never seem to > > understand this when this subject is brought up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Devon H. O'Dell > > -- > Carsten Zimmermann > mailto:cz@aegisnet.biz > > Aegis:Net IT-Dienstleistungen > Postfach 620371 > 22403 Hamburg > http://www.aegisnet.biz > Info: +49-(0)700-AEGISNET > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:27:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B6A16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:27:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53610.mail.yahoo.com (web53610.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F7D43D1F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:27:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Received: (qmail 55546 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Dec 2004 17:27:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20041223172721.55544.qmail@web53610.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.213.7.6] by web53610.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:27:21 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041223110648.73d0cfbc@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:27:22 -0000 Not that anyone cares :) but here are my random thoughts on this topic to contribute: 1) I like the daemon. I'm proud to have him as a mascot. Beats a penguin. 2) I think that the idea from way back to keep wwww.freebsd.org as-is but create a new www.freebsd.com with the improvements/changes/different-angle that people keep proposing is an EXCELLENT idea. But yes, someone with some serious skill and motivation needs to step up to the plate. 3) I have no problem with the install, although for upgrades, mergemaster is 99% of my headache. Whoever fixes (simplifies) that will be a hero From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:41:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F2816A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:41:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A62743D2F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:41:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joshua.lokken@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so66549wri for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:41:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Lvb7mHiI1Jl7eFXkhyfuctmSAnGzZfb4R9Xt2/btu3rFEl5TRF8LVttze0JGhjvUSCBUJrUS0C/7/c/RCOz+x5H9YWlddG7JWbHcWVD42jw29wuOAyBE2ILCtVNG8D0qrgpv4zbvOB1jVsyGHSiueG5Mxy5gsRgo8yjdjEH00A0= Received: by 10.54.6.71 with SMTP id 71mr154700wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.11.33 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:41:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:41:36 -0600 From: Joshua Lokken To: jsha In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Joshua Lokken List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:41:38 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100, jsha wrote: > > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. Please see the countless other posts in the archives regarding the 'evil' attribute beastie connotes. You oughtta come up with something else--you may find that others with the team think the very same thing, however, you may find that they don't, and are really attached to the Beastie mascot. As a FreeBSD user and advocate, I like Beastie, however, it never, ever has come up in my many hours of FreeBSD use or tutelage. Never. I just don't think it's very pertinent. > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. Again, as others have suggested, submit a design. Personally, I say please don't touch the website design. It's very ordered, not cluttered, easy-to-navigate, and simple. A web page after my own heart ;) A flashy freebsd advocacy site, maybe. I'm not a web developer, but I think you'd be challenged to come up with a 'simpler' design. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Why is that? /sheepishly/ I like to sit and watch screens of code go flying by, sometimes for hours, while ports are building. I don't read it, nor could I, I just think 'it's cool'. To me, that's eye candy./sheepishly/ Do I think it needs to be a bigger part of the OS installation? No. Do I want to watch a sickly-blue background with soothing images and blocks of reassuring text cycling before me while (something?) goes on in the background during the installation of the OS? Not really. IMHO, snazzing up the install process would only be a detraction. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. Am I the only one that sees this idea as nothing more than potential for disaster? > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? If you pull together a team, and they really work on these issues, I would be willing to bet that you won't be ignored. Probably, the main reason alot of these things haven't been implemented already is lack of time on the part of the FreeBSD team, and the lack of urgency for those specific aspects you mention. I say go for it. Good luck, and thanks for the email :) -- Joshua Lokken Open Source Advocate From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:06:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1003116A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:06:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD93F43D5A; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:06:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBNKkFU5011418; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id iBNKkFCv011417; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:46:15 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: jsha Message-ID: <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com>; from johann@terrabionic.com on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 12:27:31PM +0100 cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:06:46 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 12:27:31PM +0100, jsha wrote: > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. hi Johann! > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. While many people love the FreeBSD logo, there's certainly no reason why you, or anybody else can't come up with something different. We'd love to see what you have in mind. > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. Yes, this has been discussed many times over the years, as has been mentioned in this thread. If you are interested in creating a proof of concept design, my company would be more than willing to supply web space and equipment usage for any person or team of people willing to give a FreeBSD website re-design a shot. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Have at it ;) > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. What will you do with those? If you want to use something for advocacy, a great idea might be business card live FreeBSD cd's such as the ones passed out at the FreeBSD 10 Year Anniversary Party that Seth Kingsley made. > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? How do the developers know that if they spend months writing code, anybody will end up using it? You're not being ignored now, so this is a good sign that you won't be ignored if you actually help to produce something. > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Absolutely. A single, front page mock-up would probably be a good place to start. When in doubt, take a look at ibm.com, sun.com, apple.com, etc. as they have spent countless millions in website design and user acceptance. I can ask my company if they will donate a 1U server (maybe with the old BSDi logo on it) if enough people are interested in entering a freebsd advocacy website design contest. Winners could be decided by a vote on the advocacy mailing list or by core or something. Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays everyone! -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:36:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC0F16A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:36:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AB3243D2F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:36:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 21:36:06 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:36:05 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <49467.63.231.157.250.1103805658.squirrel@63.231.157.250> In-Reply-To: <49467.63.231.157.250.1103805658.squirrel@63.231.157.250> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412231336.06402.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Ryan Sommers cc: jsha cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:36:07 -0000 CCing this to chat and removing www, arch and questions, because my response isn't much more than that ... On Thursday 23 December 2004 04:40 am, "Ryan Sommers" wrote: > Going to reply to the whole thread so far. > > jsha said: > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also > > looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro > > ten years > > Although I don't like the tone of the other replies, I agree with > their sentiment, beasty is as much a part of FreeBSD as the family > dog is a part of the family. Speaking of which, I remember a CD package of FreeBSD that had a photo of a fire hydrant on the cover. Think it was 4.10, but can't find it in a search. Personally, I think it looks kinda cool, sort of like the packaging on a game rather than an OS, and it does have sort of a ... kitchy feel, I guess (maybe that wasn't intended), but the subject of the photo doesn't make a whole lot of sense ... or maybe just to me. I've always wondered about that. Anyone know the significance, in case I'm missing something? - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:38:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A023616A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:38:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from a.mx.aegisnet.de (a.mx.aegisnet.de [213.238.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE28143D48 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:38:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (qmail 83760 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 21:38:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de) ([80.171.62.248]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 23 Dec 2004 21:38:24 -0000 Received: from galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iBNLc6hd001124; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:38:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (from czimmer@localhost)iBNLbroV001123; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:37:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) X-Authentication-Warning: galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de: czimmer set sender to cz@aegisnet.biz using -f Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:37:50 +0100 From: Carsten Zimmermann To: Matt Olander Message-ID: <20041223213750.GB712@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:38:04 -0000 --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Thu Dec 23, 2004 at 12:4615PM -0800 schrieb Matt Olander: [snippledeedoo] > I can ask my company if they will donate a 1U server (maybe with the old > BSDi logo on it) if enough people are interested in entering a freebsd > advocacy website design contest. Winners could be decided by a vote on > the advocacy mailing list or by core or something. A design contest seems the best way to go! Let the games begin. The only problem might indeed be that there aren't enough people willing to contriubute to that contest, which leaves us without a content at all ;) > Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays everyone! Yeah - from me, too! Carsten --=20 Carsten Zimmermann mailto:cz@aegisnet.biz Aegis:Net IT-Dienstleistungen Postfach 620371 22403 Hamburg http://www.aegisnet.biz Info: +49-(0)700-AEGISNET --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByzquucbzqiAxJVkRAjngAKCJghmiNYYzbWahaeMsdSVqHeAGMwCfYtSg DTMAAdbEtdwzyaZNMCvhPV4= =U+qp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 22:09:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C329116A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:09:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D59D43D1F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:09:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBNLnMU5011843; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id iBNLnMCD011842; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:49:22 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: "Person, Roderick" Message-ID: <20041223134922.E1597@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B0D0AD042@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B0D0AD042@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu>; from personrp@ccbh.com on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 04:41:02PM -0500 cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:09:53 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 04:41:02PM -0500, Person, Roderick wrote: > > I can ask my company if they will donate a 1U server (maybe > > with the old > > BSDi logo on it) if enough people are interested in entering a freebsd > > advocacy website design contest. Winners could be decided by a vote on > > the advocacy mailing list or by core or something. > > > > I think this a great idea! I'd enter the contest. ok! Devon, can you post the requirements or guidelines that you and Murray had come up with when we discussed this last? I remember that there were a few requirements involved regarding programming languages or something. my work has already approved the idea although I'm not promising much for the 1U server ;) I used to hate the redhat site, but it looks like they revamped it since I looked last and it's much nicer and easier to navigate now. maybe Yahoo or Juniper will let us use their corporate logo for a "Juniper relies on FreeBSD' type image. I'll ask them. or an animated gif cycling through big corporate users. oh wait, now I'm giving away my design ideas! lol. I'll enter (even though my website design skillz aren't too great) but anybody from my company will, of course, be exempt from the contest :P so, the goal for this will not be for internal freebsd user use (although that's not out of the question, I'd think) but more for a professional advocacy site, right? something appropriate to sell or show off to middle/upper management exec types. Happy Festivus, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 00:00:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB57016A4D3; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:00:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from eddie.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C2543D68; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:00:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@eddie.nitro.dk) Received: by eddie.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3BCAC119CD9; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:00:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:00:42 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Matt Olander Message-ID: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0IvGJv3f9h+YhkrH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:00:59 -0000 --0IvGJv3f9h+YhkrH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.12.23 12:46:15 -0800, Matt Olander wrote: > Absolutely. A single, front page mock-up would probably be a good place > to start. When in doubt, take a look at ibm.com, sun.com, apple.com, > etc. as they have spent countless millions in website design and user > acceptance. After EuroBSDCon I started looking more seriously into reworking the web site, starting with the front page. I haven't said anything about this "publicly" since I wanted to have something reasonable to show before starting another round of chitchat on the lists about it :-). My rework haven't been drastic, mainly keeping the current design but focusing on simplifying the content to make it easier to actually find things on the website. If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... People who want to work on this should also look at Murray Stokely's wiki page at http://wiki.daemon.li/index.pl?Murray which contain some goals / requirements the doceng team has come up with for a new website. > I can ask my company if they will donate a 1U server (maybe with the old > BSDi logo on it) if enough people are interested in entering a freebsd > advocacy website design contest. Winners could be decided by a vote on > the advocacy mailing list or by core or something. I don't know if a design content will be the best way to handle a new website. Personally I think it would be better if people just post their design idea (i.e. mockup's, not just idea of how it could be) and then the interested people can come with suggestions for improvements. Of course, this is just my humble opinion :-). --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --0IvGJv3f9h+YhkrH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBy1wph9pcDSc1mlERAgMcAJ42HuWeHxz81GDgOmaP73Mg5DwTFACfeSp4 cyr4t/x3LT6apmj++mZSGVY= =Oe4Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0IvGJv3f9h+YhkrH-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 04:46:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E1416A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A4643D45; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224044618i9100rg29me>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:27 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:46:14 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 -0000 >>From a business perspective we look amateurish. > > I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Here are some example sites: http://m0n0.ch/wall/screens/system.png http://www.mozilla.org/ http://www.horde.org/logos/ http://www.xfce.org/ http://www.gnome.org/ http://www.gimp.org/ http://www.php.net/ http://freebsd.kde.org/ http://www.google.com/ http://www.apache.org/ http://www.adobe.com/ http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.sun.com/ http://www.suse.com/ http://www.novell.com/ http://www.ibm.com/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/ http://www.mysql.com/ http://cocoon.apache.org/ http://www.w3.org/ http://www.penguincomputing.com/ FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:01:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C3916A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE68D43D46; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0090260E2; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 44906-06; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C10360CD; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:02:13 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:45 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: > >>> From a business perspective we look amateurish. >> I have held off thus far... >> > I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an > outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of professionalism, > which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? > I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the > things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on > toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. > 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt > you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black > wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, I hate it. > Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web > font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the > whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs > are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, > UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the "logo" > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading > Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art > school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up > about basic color theory here: > http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever > here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. > 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is > unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie > the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... > I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice > if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it > is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match > the website? Snip - not worth repeating. > FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:40:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B46C16A4D0 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB01F43D53 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 6709 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (kjofyb@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBO5e2GH065965; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBO5e0MG065948; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:00 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:06 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading > Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:58:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED8416A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postit.mail.adnap.net.au (postit.mail.adnap.net.au [203.6.132.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D113E43D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bastill@adam.com.au) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (202-6-154-250.ip.adam.com.au [202.6.154.250]) by postit.mail.adnap.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E551C449; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:28:03 +1030 (CST) From: Brian Astill To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:27:51 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412241627.51795.bastill@adam.com.au> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:06 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:46 pm, Nikolas Britton wrote: > FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. > _______________________________________________ It also needs people who realise that multiple cross-posting is deprecated. Could this conversation please be moved to -advocacy and ONLY to -advocacy? Thanks. -- Regards, Brian sos-sa.org.au From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 06:09:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D4716A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C15943D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224060933i9100rfpj2e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:34 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:09:29 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:36 -0000 Chris wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> >>>> From a business perspective we look amateurish. >>> >>> > > I have held off thus far... > >>> >> I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an >> outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of >> professionalism, which is not true. > > > No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? hmm?, fuck no I hate penguins (esp Linux ones), there's nothing wrong with chucky > Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as > the NetBSD project took? No, just a better image in the enterprises and data centers of the world. > >> I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the >> things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on >> toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): > > > Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not > offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users > of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users > of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? I guess I did step your toe's and ego, I was only trying to give constructive criticism. > >> 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll >> hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just >> the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, >> I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased >> modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) >> and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of >> your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the >> page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for >> example) > > > You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD > site as to the redoing of the "logo" I DON'T want it "redesigned" (like NetBSD did) just re-done... same logo just better looking, image is everything you know. > >> 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >> with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >> Cascading Style Sheets?) > > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? No, it's a web standard: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ also it would be a good idea to look into XHTML: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ > >> 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art >> school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read >> up about basic color theory here: >> http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever >> here of Cascading Style Sheets??) > > > Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Yes I can tell, I was trying to offer some helpfull tips > Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I > really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Yes > > Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? I don't like pastels ether, to girly, I like bold and neutral colors. > If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have > been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. I watch the history channel most of the time or the courses offered by the local college on channel 20 , I really think TLC has gone down hill with all the trading spaces type shows, though page is cute. It's just that I've always had a good eye for this type of stuff. > > >> 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is >> unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII >> beastie the default. > > > Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... That is true. > >> I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be >> nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with >> the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the >> installer to match the website? > > > Snip - not worth repeating. > >> FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 06:48:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3262316A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F55A43D1D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224064759i9100rfo80e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBBB9A.5000001@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:47:54 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:02 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: >Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: > > >>2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a >>modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading >>Style Sheets?) >> >> > >you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should >be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to >do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now >it appears)... > > Yes >As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: > > >And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display >the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... >So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. > > > learn something new everyday, thanks for the tip. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 07:20:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939BA16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F374943D2D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBO7Kkv63386; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" , "Chris" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:20:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:58 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:09 PM > To: Chris > > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. > > If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the > enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and > mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other > BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. > I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD community to do a site redesign, see here: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of talking about it? Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 09:06:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF08816A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:06:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725CE43D49; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:06:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=56442 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChlP4-0002qB-1X; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:06:30 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:3048 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChlP2-0003hu-Qc; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:06:28 +0100 Message-ID: <41CBDC13.2080707@offmyserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 10:06:27 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Olander References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B0D0AD042@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <20041223134922.E1597@knight.ixsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223134922.E1597@knight.ixsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:06:38 -0000 Matt Olander wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 04:41:02PM -0500, Person, Roderick wrote: > >>>I can ask my company if they will donate a 1U server (maybe >>>with the old >>>BSDi logo on it) if enough people are interested in entering a freebsd >>>advocacy website design contest. Winners could be decided by a vote on >>>the advocacy mailing list or by core or something. >>> >> >>I think this a great idea! I'd enter the contest. Ha! I see what you're up to! ;P > > ok! Devon, can you post the requirements or guidelines that you and > Murray had come up with when we discussed this last? I remember that > there were a few requirements involved regarding programming languages > or something. Yay, give me even more work to do ;). I'll dig through my old mails and see if I can find what I discussed with Murray. The general idea was that it would need to be something that would be trackable using CVS; we didn't really want to go down any sort of CMS route or use scripting languages, unless absolutely necessary. > my work has already approved the idea although I'm not promising much > for the 1U server ;) > > I used to hate the redhat site, but it looks like they revamped it since > I looked last and it's much nicer and easier to navigate now. maybe > Yahoo or Juniper will let us use their corporate logo for a "Juniper relies > on FreeBSD' type image. I'll ask them. or an animated gif cycling > through big corporate users. oh wait, now I'm giving away my design ideas! lol. > > I'll enter (even though my website design skillz aren't too great) but > anybody from my company will, of course, be exempt from the contest :P > > so, the goal for this will not be for internal freebsd user > use (although that's not out of the question, I'd think) but more for a > professional advocacy site, right? something appropriate to sell or show > off to middle/upper management exec types. > > Happy Festivus, > -matt This sounds about correct, although the discussions I had with Murray and other members of core@ (though, tbh, not many got involved) seemed to imply that it _would_ be for the main site. Have a good holiday Matt; this extends to the rest of you as well! Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 11:28:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C6A16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:28:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk (freebsd.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.249.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF5F43D1F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:28:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@mx1.originative.co.uk) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C43215639; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:28:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 70729-02; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:27:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C364D1563A; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:27:54 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:27:54 +0000 From: Paul Richards To: Ted Mittelstaedt Message-ID: <20041224112754.GE786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> References: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:28:07 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 11:20:46PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:09 PM > > To: Chris > > > > > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. > > > > If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the > > enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and > > mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other > > BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. > > > > I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, > way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is I doubt that very much. Don't see a lot of FreeBSD on people's desktops most places out there. If you're just talking servers I'd be dubious about that too. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 12:28:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E3016A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F53443D41; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from fwd11.aul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1ChoYg-0001VZ-01; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:38 +0100 Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (bKaf0MZdYeQPMQMJB40AhL4GJu8YPhTwvnZAlAp6i7v7NjqgEgsd8H@[217.229.222.40]) by fmrl11.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 1ChoYM-0Wvk8W0; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:18 +0100 Received: from Magellan.Leidinger.net (Magellan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.1]) iBOCS9tj059543; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:25 +0100 From: Alexander Leidinger To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, jsha Message-ID: <20041224132825.023fc5ee@Magellan.Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ID: bKaf0MZdYeQPMQMJB40AhL4GJu8YPhTwvnZAlAp6i7v7NjqgEgsd8H@t-dialin.net X-TOI-MSGID: 50e9a8d7-c00a-455f-8a4b-268e48bfb6f7 Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:46 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 jsha wrote: > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. You know that you write this a t a time where a lot of people are visiting their family and don't have email access or don't read the mailinglists? At least this is the case for a lot of FreeBSD committers. > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. Even if a lot of committers won't/can't answer now: there are people which agree with you (maybe not all, but you know what we say about bikesheds, don't you?). > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks We had an discussion a while ago about this. The way I understand the conclusion is: we have a mascot, but no logo (we may use our mascot like other people use a logo ATM). And we want to keep the mascot. We may be interested in a logo, but a logo is a bikeshed topic. Since we're more developers than designers, nobody stepped up to proceed on this topic (at least I don't know about it if someone proceeded further). If you want to put your energy into creating a logo, there will be people which listen to you. > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. This is a little bit harsh. I suggest to stay with facts and suggestions. Keep such rants for your personal pleasure, we don't need them. > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. The doc team is progressing in this direction... at least if I read the content between the lines of commit logs right. I think they try to separate the content from the design at the moment (the prerequisite to use the full power of CSS). I suggest to get in contact with them to not reinvent the wheel. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Yes. AFAIK the Freesbie project is integrating the bsdinstaller (the installer DragonFly uses) ATM. We will see how this works out and depending on this there may be interest to integrate the installer into FreeBSD. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. Even if there are some people which don't think this is needed, I like this idea. In may day to day job I'm working as a consultant, so I know where/how/why this may be beneficial (or not). > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? We can't guarantee that any of your work will be adopted, but I don't think your work will be ignored (be prepared to get a lot of critique... positive and negative one). Bye, Alexander. -- The best things in life are free, but the expensive ones are still worth a look. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 14:23:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B8816A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E5443D4C; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b238.otenet.gr [212.205.244.246]) iBOENalo011721; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:23:38 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOENXPJ001444; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:23:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOEMkmE001441; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Chris , Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:42 -0000 On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: >Nikolas Britton wrote: >> 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >> with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >> Cascading Style Sheets?) > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on paper. > >3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art > >school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up > >about basic color theory here: > >http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever > >here of Cascading Style Sheets??) > > Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the > OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design > has passion blue opposed to blue? The fact that we don't know a lot about art and design is not a good excuse for reacting badly to anyone that says so. Nikolas, there is an effort to redesign the web site, using CSS as much as possible for style & layout, making sure that the entire site has a consistent look and feel. Your comments show that you know a bit about design. If you believe you can help with such an effort, please contact us at and assist the team who works on the web site. > Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re > design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way > too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. > > >4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is > >unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie > >the default. > > Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... ``Who cares?'' is exactly the sort of bad PR that Nikolas is right about. Please avoid inflammatory material, if possible :-/ Nikolas, there is a good reason why the ASCII art logo is not using colors by default. Many people use FreeBSD with a serial console, and sending colors over a serial port connection is a bit silly: annoying an a waste of precious serial connection bandwidth. This is why the loader logo doesn't use fancy colors by default. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 09:46:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB2116A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from male.aldigital.co.uk (male.thebunker.net [213.129.64.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7383643D48; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from gravitas.thebunker.net (gateway.ash.thebunker.net [213.129.64.4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by male.aldigital.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BE69774A; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1])iBO9kMcF004839; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:23 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Message-ID: <41CBE567.9080006@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:15 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041213) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:04:26 +0000 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, > way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is > cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD > community to do a site redesign, see here: > > http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css > > Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the > site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of > talking about it? Errr... Not so. Admittedly, this was posted just a few days ago, but people are working on CSS-izing the FreeBSD.org web site: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-doc/2004-December/006616.html Elsewhere on this thread there has been some talk about organizing a design competition to see who can come up with the best concept for the site. Strikes me that a good way to do that would be along the lines of this competition to redesign the W3.org site: http://w3mix.web-graphics.com/entries.php ie. take the existing content and write a style sheet to present it in the best possible way. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 8 Dane Court Manor School Rd PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Tilmanstone Tel: +44 1304 617253 Kent, CT14 0JL UK --------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQcvlbpr7OpndfbmCAQIGwQQAtPJ5gidYIVlDXxGckJDixrgf95m+pR0C NGU4h0l+Bx7BVbVvy19omNjKH7TSFv6XKHgYH1opab2bSsMwl0s14YDcrpSFg9wZ FjEDV4NwCPhxkvpfQsVIA2Fe9JxmxL3hgCSUbP377H5M3vFWezU3Q2trkAB0XKiz Af41EuiatbM= =wLgO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 16:09:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8108C16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:09:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD17B43D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:09:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=38963 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Chs0N-00038B-LI; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:09:27 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:4159 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Chs0M-0003XW-Ft; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:09:26 +0100 Message-ID: <41CC3F35.7010304@sitetronics.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:09:25 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Seaman References: <41CBE567.9080006@infracaninophile.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <41CBE567.9080006@infracaninophile.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:43 +0000 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:09:36 -0000 Matthew Seaman wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, >> way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is >> cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD >> community to do a site redesign, see here: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css >> >> Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the >> site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of >> talking about it? > > > Errr... Not so. Admittedly, this was posted just a few days ago, but > people are working on CSS-izing the FreeBSD.org web site: > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-doc/2004-December/006616.html > > Elsewhere on this thread there has been some talk about organizing a > design competition to see who can come up with the best concept for the > site. Strikes me that a good way to do that would be along the lines of > this competition to redesign the W3.org site: > > http://w3mix.web-graphics.com/entries.php > > ie. take the existing content and write a style sheet to present it in > the best possible way. > > Cheers, > > Matthew I'm going to be drawing up the rules for the competition soon. I think the best way to do it would indeed be to just create an HTML 4.01 Strict-compliant page and ask people to do CSS for it -- as might be done for csszengarden.com. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 22:47:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD6516A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39D43D41; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 9EB6D530C; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:47:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id AEDF75308; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 40557B874; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:20 +0100 (CET) To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> (Giorgos Keramidas's message of "Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:04 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas writes: > On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: > > Nikolas Britton wrote: > > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site > > > with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of > > > Cascading Style Sheets?) > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much > better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on > paper. Times New Roman was designed for a single purpose: to remain readable even when smudged or printed on low-quality paper. It does not really look good on any medium, but it's less bad than most other fonts on newsprint. Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Responding to Nikolas: Arial and Verdana are Windows fonts which is not necessarily installed on www.freebsd.org's readers' machines (though it is available in ports). Conversely, Helvetica is generally not available in Windows. CSS defines 'sans-serif' as a generic alias for whichever sans-serif font looks best on each particular platform (it maps to Arial in Windows, and Helvetica or similar in X); likewise, it defines 'serif' as a generic alias for serif fonts (it maps to Times New Roman in Windows, and a variety of Roman fonts in X depending on the browser and on what fonts are available). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 22:52:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6046E16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0026143D3F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E8A60ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53695-07; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA2A60E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:20 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:45 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > >>On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: >> >>>Nikolas Britton wrote: >>> >>>>2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >>>>with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >>>>Cascading Style Sheets?) >>> >>>CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You > apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this > discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. -- Best regards, Chris You can't expect to hit the jackpot if you don't put a few nickles in the machine. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 23:09:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319FF16A4D0; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3BD43D46; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id C59B5530C; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:09:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 97A485308; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:45 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 08838B874; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:44 +0100 (CET) To: Chris References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> (racerx@makeworld.com's message of "Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:20 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:18 -0000 Chris writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You > > apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this > > discussion. > Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was > then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my > bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. > One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to > drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 00:25:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6D616A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CEB43D58; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1Chzk7-000C1I-RH; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0000 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041225002511.GC7445@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sHrvAb52M6C8blB9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:28 -0000 --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 09:40:00PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: [ Choosing a random(ish) post to reply to - I am on holiday right now and I will not pretend to have read the whole thread ] > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with = a=20 > > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascadin= g=20 > > Style Sheets?) >=20 > you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should > be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to > do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now > it appears)... >=20 > As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: > I just committed that before I left for holidays; it is only a first step towards CSS'ing the site, and once the conversion to CSS is complete then it should be simple to have an a "best stylesheet" competition or similar (something along those lines was discussed on doc@ a couple of weeks ago). Matt Seaman posted a link to a crappy "here is what CSS can do" mockup that I posted to doc@ just before the commit mentioned above - it's at http://shrike.submonkey.net/~ceri/data2/index.html (be sure to let all the images load - this is on a slow link - and be aware that it doesn't work properly in IE for reasons that DES mentioned elsewhere). Once the conversion to CSS is complete then I have ideas for a way to offer users a personalised stylesheet (subject to implementation [I do not have a computer with me] and benchmarking [it is likely to be a little slow, though this remains to be seen]), and then you will all whine like bitchen about being asked to accept a cookie. Simon@ also has a parallel project running to redesign the site on a more fundamental which is showing promise; my main focus at present is to migrate all style related bits into stylesheets, at which point it will be easy to mess around with colour/font/layout. At present, it is not. So yes, to whoever asked the question, we have heard of CSS and we have not only been using it (minimally) for over three years, but there is real activity in improving what we do have already. > And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display > the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... > So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. Stimmt. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBzLNnocfcwTS3JF8RAmkHAKDIfGR6TJaNi+IQKLqo+N3plg6LaQCcDGW+ +gHjlNh7VE624g9IzAxaEQs= =gaup -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 01:25:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1856E16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47FF43D2F; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7886E60ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54454-04; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA12060E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CCC1B7.4090008@makeworld.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:26:15 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:45 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Chris writes: > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> >>>Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You >>>apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this >>>discussion. >> >>Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was >>then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my >>bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. > > > CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera > Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors > and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding > Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render > poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not > at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. > > >>One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>drive the car. > > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > DES Technically - I didn't criticize. Allow me to post verbatim; "CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing?" Doesn't look like it to me - looks more like a query or two. But that's just me tho - perhaps you read something else? Perhaps too much eggnog? Perhaps not enough? -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 09:33:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6926C16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAA843D45; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBP77M600426; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:07:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:07:21 +0100 From: "Colin J. Raven" To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:20 -0000 On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: > Chris writes: > >> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >> drive the car. > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of=20 the engine. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 09:42:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC0D16A4CE for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:42:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D2643D41 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:42:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from elemental.DashEvil ([65.93.56.42]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20041225094221.GXLS2034.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@elemental.DashEvil> for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0500 From: Chris Laverdure To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:41:57 -0500 Message-Id: <1103967717.3206.0.camel@elemental.DashEvil> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:42:23 -0000 On Sat, 2004-12-25 at 08:07 +0100, Colin J. Raven wrote: > On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: > > > Chris writes: > > > >> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to > >> drive the car. > > > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of > the engine. > One should not abuse metaphors about a car engine. :D > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Chris Laverdure From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 14:46:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4851C16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BD043D46; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041225144626i9100rfuvme>; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:46:25 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Colin J. Raven" References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:34 -0000 Colin J. Raven wrote: > On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: > >> Chris writes: >> >>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>> drive the car. >> >> >> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > > One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of > the engine. One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. Merry Christmas, Nikolas