From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 14:20:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA5916A4CE; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B331943D3F; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBQEKbh02406; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:36 +0100 From: "Colin J. Raven" To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:46 -0000 On Dec 25, Nikolas Britton responded thusly: > Colin J. Raven wrote: > >> On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: >>=20 >>> Chris writes: >>>=20 >>>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>>> drive the car. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >>> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. >>=20 >>=20 >> One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of t= he=20 >> engine. > > > One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking= the=20 > tires, and taking it for a test drive. > One should not need to strike tires with one's footwear in order to=20 determine the suitability of the vehicle. Regards, -Colin -- Colin J. Raven 3:19PM up 4:20, 2 users, load averages: 1.76, 1.63, 1.59 Today's Random Silliness: "There's a disturbance in the force, OK...who didn't flush the toilet?" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 15:31:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BA516A4CE; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:31:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E204A43D5E; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:31:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2450B61A4; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:31:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55717-06; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:31:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BAEB60EA; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:31:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CED97D.2050906@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:32:13 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Colin J. Raven" References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:31:46 -0000 Colin J. Raven wrote: > On Dec 25, Nikolas Britton responded thusly: > >> Colin J. Raven wrote: >> >>> On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: >>> >>>> Chris writes: >>>> >>>>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>>>> drive the car. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >>>> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. >>> >>> >>> >>> One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs >>> of the engine. >> >> >> >> One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, >> kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. >> > > One should not need to strike tires with one's footwear in order to > determine the suitability of the vehicle. > > > Regards, > -Colin Bah - I ride an HD anyways. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 15:49:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B9416A4CE for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:49:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web80805.mail.yahoo.com (web80805.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.170.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01D0643D31 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:49:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041226154908.14077.qmail@web80805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.65.4.124] by web80805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:49:08 PST Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:49:08 -0800 (PST) From: To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: freebsd-users list - semi regular post X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:49:09 -0000 FreeBSD Users is a small (too small, so far :-)) informal mailing list for people who use FreeBSD. The list is not meant to compete with the formal FreeBSD lists, but to be a place for people who like to use FreeBSD to hang out, ask questions, talk about what interests them with FreeBSD. Think of it as the users group your town doesn't have :-). To join: http://www.whee.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-users I'll try to post here at least monthly. Email me if you have questions or comments. ===== Christopher Mark Conn http://storm.cadcam.iupui.edu/~cmcgoat Austin, Texas, USA From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 16:11:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2BC16A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:11:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374DA43D1D for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:11:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.drews@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so287614wra for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:11:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=T1KsL3XgEJ9ZaQuouDhrnMcBnxRazJ/CP4Mrl8gws515b5gauNlOFyiz0u6T8WFAJx+MxFX8cDx7xdpIT+Ozp8mcGaeAQaWoxJs4Z/XqJzjSbgnyphTw5hxexfA7uNGdExT3WoYQAGr42/MPzACbHxePwx/BI9pkmvjIrTwRSEI= Received: by 10.54.11.68 with SMTP id 68mr273568wrk; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.54.22 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:11:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:11:34 -0700 From: Jon Drews To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jon Drews List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:11:35 -0000 Hi: Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 simultaneous installs? Also what would be an effective way to track ports so that I don't inadvertently portupgrade to an unstable version of software? Would I set aside one computer for tracking ports? That is, suppose I have Gnome 2.6.2 in use but I want to evaluate 2.8.0. How should I test it? Superficially, it would seem a simple thing but how can I be sure that my use of 2.8.0 replicates what be normal usage, throughout the company? Any pointers or advice would be appreciated. Kind regards, Jonathan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 17:25:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C22316A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:25:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE63243D41 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:25:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shaun.meyer@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z35so380007rne for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:25:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=tk9FTEH2/SmIJ4zhl37DfNTQY0NvFyE3CT2J83Ga5tboNAMOtn2GgJ0cd6qFAo0sQpicLJftx8WeXXisKARodCQfZuODsZ6U3NTyhRQQj8hct0N/Bjlb1avPCUAjib0sFyM/oiD1S/5EMRjNRClhFgJywTAwmpntjaEADnINgDw= Received: by 10.38.96.15 with SMTP id t15mr871rnb; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.104.7 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:25:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:25:10 -0600 From: Shaun Meyer To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Shaun Meyer List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:25:17 -0000 > Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and > maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do > it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 > simultaneous installs? Are you talking about being able to push software down? (Ie, I want to upgrade Python on *all* my machines) If the machines are all fairly identical hardware, you could compile package from ports to packages. Set up your own Package server and have the others check their versions against yours. >Also what would be an effective way to track > ports so that I don't inadvertently portupgrade to an unstable > version of software? Would I set aside one computer for tracking > ports? That is, suppose I have Gnome 2.6.2 in use but I want to > evaluate 2.8.0. How should I test it? www.freshports.org? Something to consider would be "Why Upgrade", especially in a corporate setting. If it ain't broke, and you can't justify a reason to upgrade stay with what you know is stable. If you do want to test it yourself, a free machine off to the side that could fetch either packages or compile it's own ports separate from the other machines could be used. If you like what you see, compile the package on the Package Server, and wait for cron to trigger all the machines to check for updates. >Superficially, it would seem a > simple thing but how can I be sure that my use of 2.8.0 replicates > what be normal usage, throughout the company? So, computersA-D have KDE installed. You want to switch the company to Gnome with the click of a few buttons. That would involve changing a decent amount of .files - You might consider a file versioning system. All the ideas I've thrown up here are not really beautiful ideas, but they could work. If anyone knows of any projects designed for what I've been talking about - please let me know! -Shaun -- You can't always write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say, so sometimes you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream. Frank Zappa From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 19:37:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F4216A4CF for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:37:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from S2.cableone.net (smtp2.cableone.net [24.116.0.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A93E43D1D for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:37:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.123.89]) by S2.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S2) with ESMTP id 5559547 for multiple; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:55:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:36:30 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Jon Drews Message-ID: <20041227133630.51ced263@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 1, First 20, in=36, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 24.119.123.89 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:37:25 -0000 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:11:34 -0700 Jon Drews wrote: > Hi: > > Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and > maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do > it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 > simultaneous installs? Also what would be an effective way to track > ports so that I don't inadvertently portupgrade to an unstable > version of software? Would I set aside one computer for tracking > ports? That is, suppose I have Gnome 2.6.2 in use but I want to > evaluate 2.8.0. How should I test it? Superficially, it would seem a > simple thing but how can I be sure that my use of 2.8.0 replicates > what be normal usage, throughout the company? > Any pointers or advice would be appreciated. Well if all the drives are in trays, more expensive but a lot nicer, then just use dd on one machine with lots of trays in it. Or create a boot disk the mounts a nfs share and then dd the image from from over nfs. I would have a testing system and a build system. The build system is just for building packages and then a testing system to do more testing on before moving them out. Man ports for more info on this. For tracking, I suggest subscribing to all related lists. Also check out cvsup. Soime useful tools are also portmanager and portupgrade. Check out freshports.org too. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 20:04:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D1A16A4CE; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:04:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7107E43D41; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:04:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com><20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:14 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:04:18 -0000 In the spirit of... On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:00 AM, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I > think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better > website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the > advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the > mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... First Page: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif On other pages, where appropriate: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif An even more minimalist approach could be taken by just changing two existing images and adding two lines to the current CSS styles, yielding 95% of what the above screenshots show. Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 20:56:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B312516A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:56:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtps-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtps-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D3843D48 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:56:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mhellwig@xs4all.nl) Received: from [10.0.0.182] (xinagnet.xs4all.nl [80.126.243.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtps-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBRKum5J063945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:56:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mhellwig@xs4all.nl) Message-ID: <41D07713.2080907@xs4all.nl> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:56:51 +0100 From: "Martin P. Hellwig" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041111 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Drews References: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:56:51 -0000 Jon Drews wrote: >Hi: > > Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and >maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do >it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 >simultaneous installs? Also what would be an effective way to track > > Actually it doesn't matter whether these are FreeBSD machines or Windows machines, the administrative challenge is the same. So the real question is; How to deploy/maintain software and operating systems for a X amount of machines in a productivity environment? In the windows world there are a fast amount of tools which help you automate this, tools like Ghost (Enterprise version has an remote package installation) from Symantec and Microsoft's System Manager Server. I'm sure there are more products but these spring to my mind because I use them on a daily bases. I didn't bother to check any comparable tools for unix (although you should check out ghost for unix g4l at http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/ ) but it wouldn't be that much of a challenge to write your own scripts what does the same things as the above mentioned commercial products. But you still need to know the basics of system administration, the above tools only help you with that tasks, perhaps talking up with an experienced SA will help you to be more focused on solving your problems. However, the following will get you started. Deploying an OS and third party software on multiple machines and keeping those systems up to date is the "core" business of the average SA. To better understand this specific task lets split it more up: 1 Deploying the OS 2 Deploying third party software 3 Machine specific configuration 4 User specific configuration 5 Keeping Software up to date (be it the OS or third party) 6 Document it For every step of the above a sub step should be made, this would be "Test if it worked!" To keep things simple you want everything to be as much as standard as possible, this doesn't mean that you should buy only "standard" hardware and software (many SA make that mistake) but to keep those machines as much as possible the same. This means: 1 Keep processor architecture the same 2 Keep the motherboard chip set the same 3 Keep the graphical chip set the same 4 Prefer the same hard disk type (scsi, IDE or SATA) 5 Prefer the same amount of memory 6 Document it The manufactor of your mobo or the graphical card isn't that important as long as the chip set is the same. For the softer side these thumb-rules will help you along: 1 Keep the OS (version) the same 2 Keep third party software (version) the same 3 Centralize machine specific configuration 4 Centralize user specific configuration 5 Keep backups of configuration files 6 Document it The above lists are far from complete and only ment as rule of thumb, how to really do your job is depended on your organization. But you certainly want (demand) a test network where every major task is duplicated and can be tested before deploying it on the real network. On your real network (and test network) you would have 1 non-productivity machine where all ports used in your organization are build and packaged to deploy it to the other system. That machine is your master machine all other machine are mirrored from that machine, if you have multiple architectures, then you'll end up with multiple mirrors, if you have multiple OS, well you can do the math by now. Transport of these packages (or other software) can be as simple as a script what tests the local versions and wgets (or ssh/rsysnc/nfs/whatever) a newer version if appropriate and then upgrades the package (or other software). It is often useful to have a separated machine where all user and machine (template) configuration is stored and documented, perhaps even something fancy as an LDAP. But the most important thing is: "Document it" :-) and besides that, common sense and willingness to experiment. Eventually you get more familiar with ITIL and the various ISO certifications but that is not for starters. If you like more info/idea exchanging, mail me. HTH -- mph From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 21:04:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF3016A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331EC43D54 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-advocacy@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1Cj22p-0001pc-00 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:04:47 +0100 Received: from 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no ([62.97.240.79]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:04:47 +0100 Received: from jakob by 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:04:47 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Jakob Breivik Grimstveit Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:04:41 +0100 Organization: BitWise Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) X-Face: .4qx3fwC]Zs6i@H)n4+U7@:QPR,\(Q'z[`J-C"'v:; *cy8[}d]:x,*Z6I?e8m%a~O?f1',N \1g'^='~; B3WO"RqF(tt]5<1)z%.%hqWnyM|NG}|e[zDmf=j(F*p|Tq^C#{<_FvV|P/tB4aG81S )#iIlo]%Gm<)uLyN Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jakob@grimstveit.no List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:50 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > First Page: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif > > On other pages, where appropriate: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif IMHO extremely nice, both of them. A tuneup, but not breaking recognizability. Great work, Chris! -- Jakob Breivik Grimstveit, http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob, +47 48298152 Bruk Newsergalleriet! No på http://www.newsergalleriet.no/ Treng du noko på CD?: http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob/burncd_no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 21:43:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC1D16A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:43:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.elvandar.org (redqueen.elvandar.org [217.148.169.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B74343D54 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:43:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.elvandar.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96370295458 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:43:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.elvandar.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (redqueen.elvandar.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98308-11 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:43:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41D081F3.6040802@elvandar.org> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:43:15 +0100 From: Remko Lodder User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Macintosh/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at elvandar.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:43:18 -0000 Jakob Breivik Grimstveit wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > >>First Page: >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >> >>On other pages, where appropriate: >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif > > > IMHO extremely nice, both of them. A tuneup, but not breaking > recognizability. > > Great work, Chris! > I like them as well! How do people see something like a breathcrum? (or whatever it is called) Home -> Documentation -> en_US.ISO8859-1 -> Books -> Handbook (http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif idea) Or would that breakup the style? Again, i like this very much, just telling my thoughts :-) -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder ** remko@elvandar.org Reporter DSINET ** remko@DSINet.org Founder Tienervaders ** remko@tienervaders.org FreeBSD Documentation Project ** remko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 22:05:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C9716A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:05:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBD943D3F for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:05:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1Cj2zd-0000l5-00; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:05:33 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:05:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Jon Drews In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:05:43 -0000 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004, Jon Drews wrote: > Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and > maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do > it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 > simultaneous installs? Also what would be an effective way to track > ports so that I don't inadvertently portupgrade to an unstable > version of software? Would I set aside one computer for tracking > ports? That is, suppose I have Gnome 2.6.2 in use but I want to > evaluate 2.8.0. How should I test it? Superficially, it would seem a > simple thing but how can I be sure that my use of 2.8.0 replicates > what be normal usage, throughout the company? > Any pointers or advice would be appreciated. You may want to use Pkgsrc (maintained by NetBSD) under FreeBSD. Pkgsrc works fine on FreeBSD. Although it doesn't support as many packages, it does offer some features that may help you: - stable pkgsrc branch that is branched every 3 months. It only contains crucial package and infrastructure fixes and security updates, so you don't have to worry about upgrades breaking stuff. - pkgviews is an experimental way to install software to their own directory hierarchies. It is similar to depot, arch and other symlink-based packaging systems. Using pkgsrc (or pre-built packages), you can install different versions of the same packages for evaluation and easier upgrades. Of course, using a different computer for tracking Ports, testing and building packages is a good way too. Jeremy C. Reed technical support & remote administration http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 22:17:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EAC16A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:17:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17B6143D1F for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:17:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2004 22:17:40 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:17:39 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41D081F3.6040802@elvandar.org> In-Reply-To: <41D081F3.6040802@elvandar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412271417.40038.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Remko Lodder Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:17:41 -0000 On Monday 27 December 2004 01:43 pm, Remko Lodder wrote: > Jakob Breivik Grimstveit wrote: > > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >>First Page: > >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif > >> > >>On other pages, where appropriate: > >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif > > > > IMHO extremely nice, both of them. A tuneup, but not breaking > > recognizability. > > > > Great work, Chris! > > I like them as well! I like them, too. However - and please take this as constructive criticism - make sure your reds match a bit more closely. The logo and the mascot are a lighter (and slightly more blue) shade of red than the color of the print, making them look almost pink when they're right next to each other. > How do people see something like a breathcrum? (or whatever it is > called) Breadcrumbs. Like crumbs from bread, left as a trail. > Home -> Documentation -> en_US.ISO8859-1 -> Books -> Handbook > (http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif idea) > > Or would that breakup the style? Again, i like this very > much, just telling my thoughts :-) I like the idea of breadcrumbs, but I think including the whole name of the language is better, because you can see the path in the address bar anyway. In that case, it should be: Home -> Documentation -> English -> Books -> Handbook - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 00:42:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945AF16A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:42:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C21343D46 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:42:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBS0M4U5043033; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id iBS0M3Yb043032; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:22:03 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: jon.drews@gmail.com Message-ID: <20041227162203.B12645@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Mon, Dec 27, 2004 at 02:05:33PM -0800 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:42:51 -0000 On Mon, Dec 27, 2004 at 02:05:33PM -0800, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Mon, 27 Dec 2004, Jon Drews wrote: > > > Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and > > maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do > > it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 > > simultaneous installs? Also what would be an effective way to track > > ports so that I don't inadvertently portupgrade to an unstable > > version of software? Would I set aside one computer for tracking > > ports? That is, suppose I have Gnome 2.6.2 in use but I want to > > evaluate 2.8.0. How should I test it? Superficially, it would seem a > > simple thing but how can I be sure that my use of 2.8.0 replicates > > what be normal usage, throughout the company? > > Any pointers or advice would be appreciated. > > You may want to use Pkgsrc (maintained by NetBSD) under FreeBSD. Pkgsrc > works fine on FreeBSD. Although it doesn't support as many packages, it > does offer some features that may help you: > > - stable pkgsrc branch that is branched every 3 months. It only contains > crucial package and infrastructure fixes and security updates, so you > don't have to worry about upgrades breaking stuff. > > - pkgviews is an experimental way to install software to their own > directory hierarchies. It is similar to depot, arch and other > symlink-based packaging systems. Using pkgsrc (or pre-built packages), you > can install different versions of the same packages for evaluation and > easier upgrades. > > Of course, using a different computer for tracking Ports, testing and > building packages is a good way too. pkgsrc is a great idea. you may also want to consider a diskless setup too. just google for that and numerous articles come up: http://www.the-labs.com/FreeBSD/Diskless/ Colin's FreeBSD Update would be a good solution for something like this too. binary updates for FreeBSD: http://www.daemonology.net/freebsd-update/ cheers, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 00:51:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E034016A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151B243D39; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBS0pe84055972; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:51:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:57:25 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Burke References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:44 -0000 Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >> ugly. > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >> available to all that support this project. > > > I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > understand Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 01:17:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DD716A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:17:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6852A43D2F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:17:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:17:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200412271417.40038.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41D081F3.6040802@elvandar.org> <200412271417.40038.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3F9E9778-586E-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:17:32 +0100 To: Joshua Tinnin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Remko Lodder Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's VisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:17:34 -0000 On Dec 27, 2004, at 11:17 PM, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > I like them, too. However - and please take this as constructive > criticism - make sure your reds match a bit more closely. The logo and > the mascot are a lighter (and slightly more blue) shade of red than the > color of the print, making them look almost pink when they're right > next to each other. I agree, the colors need more tweaking. > >> How do people see something like a breathcrum? (or whatever it is >> called) > > Breadcrumbs. Like crumbs from bread, left as a trail. Breadcrumbs could probably be part of an upcoming "real" redesign. But for technical reasons they can't be part of a "biggest bang for the buck" kind of face-lifting on the minimalist scope that I was suggesting with those screenshots. Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 01:44:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC1816A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D5943D5E; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS1huIN014267; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:43:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:44:39 -0600 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:06 -0000 This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it yourself". I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >Simon Burke wrote: >[snip] >>>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >>> ugly. >> >>Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > >This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. >Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy >installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. >But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the >website. Why? >Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and >tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They >might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the >lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but >one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >linux advocate instead. >We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken >seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > >[snip] >>>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>> available to all that support this project. >> >>I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>understand > >Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > >-- >R >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 02:46:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCEB16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13D643D45; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228024602i9100rffrre>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:45:58 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 -0000 Frank Pawlak wrote: > This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost > periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several > attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this > author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has > been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise > to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, > apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it > yourself". I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us like minded people "can" fix it ourselfs? > > I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial > properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The > development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought > many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the > core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... > Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) > > Frank > > At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Simon Burke wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the >>>> FreeBSD >>>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a >>>> redesign >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without >>>> being >>>> ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>> do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>> A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>> navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>> really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>> would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>> have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the >> problem. >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >> flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >> have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >> improve the website. Why? >> Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or >> similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation >> knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >> stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >> a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >> towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >> taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about >> it! >> >> [snip] >> >>>> 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>>> available to all that support this project. >>> >>> >>> I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>> understand >> >> >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. >> >> -- >> R >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 02:59:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDC116A4CF for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5959943D54 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:59:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@behanna.org) Received: (qmail 75818 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 02:59:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO acs-24-154-1-235.zoominternet.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 02:59:37 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.154.1.235 From: Chris BeHanna Organization: Western Pennsylvania Pizza Disposal Unit To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:59:35 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412272159.36135.chris@behanna.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@behanna.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:59:39 -0000 Distribution trimmed to -advocacy and -www. On Monday 27 December 2004 21:45, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost > > periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several > > attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this > > author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has > > been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise > > to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, > > apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it > > yourself". > > I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to > shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us > like minded people "can" fix it ourselfs? In case you missed it, a post went by a few days ago about the in-progress conversion of the site to use CSS, which will make all the things folks have been desiring much easier to do. I'm sure the www-meisters wouldn't mind help doing that, and once that's done, people who were interested could do up some demos and core or whomever could decide what they liked best. One thing's for sure, "someone should fix this" bitching from the peanut gallery will NEVER get it done. Thanks, -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer (Remove "bogus" before responding.) chris@bogus.behanna.org Turning coffee into software since 1990. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 05:36:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF3616A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E6643D46; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBS5aav82480; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , "Simon Burke" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > To: Simon Burke > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Simon Burke wrote: > [snip] > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > a redesign > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > >> ugly. > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > improve the website. Why? > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a Windows installation. The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is nothing compared to the labor cost. I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum amount of time learning how to do anything. > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in some university and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they were doing. They don't really understand anything about technology infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there being any such thing as 'key employees' Why do you think that the current federal government administration just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize your products to what the customers in the market want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get the hell out' Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists conversation. In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 07:23:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F4716A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F87E43D4C; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS7NEgV028552; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041228011612.0285ccd8@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:57 -0600 To: Ted Mittelstaedt , "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: References: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 -0000 This beyond a doubt is one of the best explanations that I have seen, heard, expressed, etc., of how the fsck'ed up world of business does IT stuff, and I have done IT consulting on various levels for over 18 years. Very well said Ted. It points out quite well why BSD in general has a bad time in the marketplace. Regards, Frank At 11:36 PM 12/27/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > > Vetterberg > > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > > To: Simon Burke > > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > > > > Simon Burke wrote: > > [snip] > > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > > a redesign > > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > > >> ugly. > > > > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > > problem. > >Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration >in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > > > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > > have today. > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > > improve the website. Why? > > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > >FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux >meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually >meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > >The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and >I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, >then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into >you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become >very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. >I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very >few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless >your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. > >You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk >thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't >understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate >technology into their systems, they don't even understand their >current system. > >CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows >guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can >boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows >if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't >do what they need done. > >If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging >Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, >until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over >commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up >this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have >extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will >jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then >I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage >their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they >have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and >a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some >critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation >and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a >Windows installation. > >The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the >Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" >either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they >want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus >Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. > >My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs >are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to >customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. >I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that >is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the >customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of >time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can >do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do >Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is >nothing compared to the labor cost. > >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones >that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only >want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch >us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to >do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual >and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to >set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the >minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum >amount of time learning how to do anything. > > > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > > > >Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here >but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees >in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers >in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most >of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, >and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago >were partying their way through a business degree in some university >and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their >companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you >know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too >scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the >money if they really knew what they were doing. > >They don't really understand anything about technology >infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high >school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And >the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in >business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect >of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into >their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be >interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there >being any such thing as 'key employees' > >Why do you think that the current federal government administration >just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new >economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to >new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that >comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays >big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing >such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current >debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount >of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very >few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. > >To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize >your products to what the customers in the market want, and there >is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically >increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want >you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, >and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would >buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only >way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last >speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of >key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned >this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is >going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants >to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what >the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it >for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get >the hell out' > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get >them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their >problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system >that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy >about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your >going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists >conversation. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These >CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to >be finished building the new system, who is going to train the >end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money >are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money >they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should >be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection >to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you >to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and >after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > >Ted > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 10:17:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F7216A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:17:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E5E5343D3F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:17:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:17:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3F9E9778-586E-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com><41D081F3.6040802@elvandar.org> <200412271417.40038.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <3F9E9778-586E-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:17:51 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:17:56 -0000 On Dec 28, 2004, at 2:17 AM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Dec 27, 2004, at 11:17 PM, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > >> I like them, too. However - and please take this as constructive >> criticism - make sure your reds match a bit more closely. The logo and >> the mascot are a lighter (and slightly more blue) shade of red than >> the >> color of the print, making them look almost pink when they're right >> next to each other. > > I agree, the colors need more tweaking. I tweaked my mockups a bit. The new versions are available via the original URLs: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif The old versions I moved to http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1a.gif and http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2a.gif respectively. Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 12:50:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A0F16A540; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B840343D5D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228125011i9100rfdmee>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:07 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' >>Vetterberg >>Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM >>To: Simon Burke >>Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; >>freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >>Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> >> > > >>Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >>flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >>have today. >> >> > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > It does, and that is why I use it. Amiga was like that too. > > >>But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >>improve the website. Why? >>Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar >>and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows >>why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >>stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >>a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >>towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> >> > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. > Why are you even talking to CEOs? This is a job for CTOs and/or CIOs, and if a company didn't have one you wound then be talking to a CFO or COO. >What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, > You assuming the consultant even knows about FreeBSD, most do not. >and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > > >>We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >>taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! >> >> >> > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Now thats just asinine. > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX is. at best they mistake it for Linux. >And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and CIOs. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. > this is a good idea, I'd have to agree with him. >You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical merit alone. I want a part of the linux pie! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 13:17:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B341216A5D4 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:17:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from netmeister.org (netmeister.org [64.81.200.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ACBA43D3F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:17:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jschauma@netmeister.org) Received: by netmeister.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A8EDCE8067; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:19:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:19:16 -0500 From: Jan Schaumann To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041228131916.GB10229@netmeister.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mxv5cy4qt+RJ9ypb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:17:08 -0000 --mxv5cy4qt+RJ9ypb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jon Drews wrote: =20 > Can anyone give me advice on how I should go about deploying and > maintaining FreeBSD desktops, in a company setting? I know how to do > it for my own FreeBSD desktop but how would I manage 30 to 50 > simultaneous installs? Shamelessly plugging myself :-), I'd like to point out that I presented a framework for just this at EuroBSDCon this year. Well, not FreeBSD desktops, but NetBSD, but the underlying principle is obviously the same. So you may find this paper helpful: http://www.netbsd.org/~jschauma/netbsd-desktop.pdf http://www.netbsd.org/~jschauma/netbsd-desktop-slides.pdf > Also what would be an effective way to track > ports so that I don't inadvertently portupgrade to an unstable=20 > version of software? Would I set aside one computer for tracking > ports? That is, suppose I have Gnome 2.6.2 in use but I want to > evaluate 2.8.0. How should I test it? Superficially, it would seem a > simple thing but how can I be sure that my use of 2.8.0 replicates > what be normal usage, throughout the company? I usually build binary versions of all my software. I install everything in a test-sandbox, and push the changes out to one machine if I need to test such an upgrade. If I have willing users, I push out the changes from the test-sandbox to them and let them evaluate the setup for a few days, before I update the production-sandbox and push out all clients. -Jan --=20 Free Speech Online - Stop Internet Censorship --- Electronic Frontier Foundation -- http://www.eff.org --- --mxv5cy4qt+RJ9ypb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (NetBSD) iD8DBQFB0V1UfFtkr68iakwRAk8oAJ0Ydvq2u4Mr9iQZRzpvT6mac+CxugCfRqBx nOs2wLDX4UvvZJdBmUG2PyQ= =pQG8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mxv5cy4qt+RJ9ypb-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 14:50:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9CB16A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:50:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1E843D3F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:50:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.drews@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so364883wra for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=k9gQIxBRRqy3o4/wiaRapw2VUirJtQuxX9dj99KmqQqBWyKTXCGf3rpIvnQ39A5+ODef3MjMBLCXv36LIWKvTZgZOeWUjZqC7FrrR1JD1JS6161M7Bx7Wf2CptuLhnrbiTGz+efxj5cA54Ct7htKc3avZieFqgph1M0cTYPGeFQ= Received: by 10.54.6.55 with SMTP id 55mr179278wrf; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.54.22 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8cb27cbf04122806501424c274@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:50:29 -0700 From: Jon Drews To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041228131916.GB10229@netmeister.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <8cb27cbf04122708111005f3eb@mail.gmail.com> <20041228131916.GB10229@netmeister.org> Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jon Drews List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:50:31 -0000 Thanks so much Guys: I would also like to ask what was the reaction from the end users when they began using the FreeBSD desktops? I ask because I installed some NetBSD 1.6.2 desktops for students, at a small University center here. The NetBSD worked very well in my opinion. I had Gnuplot, Scilab and Gnumeric installed for the students, along with Firefox 1.0. I also got sound working on them and the NetBSD boxes can play mp3's, CD's or stream Ogg Vorbis (from Virgin Radio). However the students complained about having to log in, which I thought was odd. They don't use them much and are reluctant to learn the basic commands (startx, shutdown -h now etc. ). Also I did not install Xdm/Gdm and had them use "startx". I guess that was a big mistake. I did that because these computers are old (255 MHz PII - 400 MHz PIII) with about 150 Mb of ram on each. I wanted as much memory free as possible. I was using Xfce 4 and Gnome 2.8 as the desktops. A guy who is a sysadmin advised me to install Kde, so I did. However it took quite a while to compile so I only did it on one machine. Still the students were reluctant to use them. Truth be told I have not been able to meet with them that often. I did the installs as a volunteer project. I would think the NetBSD boxes would have appealed to them as I have some nice software installed on them. I also included, Gperiodic (periodic table of elements), Rasmol (molecular viewer) and GTK Chemtool (molecular drawing), for the chemistry and biology students. Where have I gone wrong and what should I do to entice the students to give them a try ? On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:19:16 -0500, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Shamelessly plugging myself :-), I'd like to point out that I presented > a framework for just this at EuroBSDCon this year. Well, not FreeBSD > desktops, but NetBSD, but the underlying principle is obviously the > same. So you may find this paper helpful: > > http://www.netbsd.org/~jschauma/netbsd-desktop.pdf > http://www.netbsd.org/~jschauma/netbsd-desktop-slides.pdf Thanks so much Jan, I will be looking into these. Kind regards Jonathan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 18:47:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603EC16A4CF for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FBC43D46 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 26898 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 18:47:15 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Dec 2004 18:47:15 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (mhmdaz@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBSIlEGH015363; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBSIlCI4015359; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:47:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:47:12 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-ID: <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:16 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Tue, Dec 28, 2004 at 01:57 +0100: > >Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > >do. Also i actually like how it looks. > >A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > >dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > >navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > >really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > >would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > >have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > problem. > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > improve the website. Why? > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > [snip] > >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > >> available to all that support this project. > > > > > >I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > >understand > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. Then we should create a website www.freebsdforcxo.com and use that. The problem is that the base FreeBSD.org website should remain as it is. It is targeted to technical people who might not be running a GUI web browser and want quick access to information. Making it more pretty to sell, while destroying the usability for 99% of the audience is not a solution. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 06:40:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233016A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mongers.org (miracle.mongers.org [193.162.142.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 120EC43D1F for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:40:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m@mongers.org) Received: (qmail 17709 invoked by uid 1021); 29 Dec 2004 06:40:48 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:40:48 +0100 From: Morten Liebach To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041229064048.GA18730@mongers.org> Mail-Followup-To: Morten Liebach , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i X-Accept-Language: dansk, english X-Organisation: Hollow Chocolate Bunnies of Death, Inc. X-PGP-Key-ID: F1360CA9 X-PGP-Key-URL: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF1360CA9 X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: 8CF5 32EE A5EC 36B2 4E3F ACDF 6D86 BEB3 F136 0CA9 Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:40:51 -0000 On 2004-12-28 10:47:12 -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Tue, Dec 28, 2004 at 01:57 +0100: > > >Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > >do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > >A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > >dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > >navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > >really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > >would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > >have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > > problem. > > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > > have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > > improve the website. Why? > > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > > > [snip] > > >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > > >> available to all that support this project. > > > > > > > > >I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > > >understand > > > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > > Then we should create a website www.freebsdforcxo.com and use that. > The problem is that the base FreeBSD.org website should remain as it > is. It is targeted to technical people who might not be running a GUI > web browser and want quick access to information. > > Making it more pretty to sell, while destroying the usability for 99% > of the audience is not a solution. Try looking at http://csszengarden.com/ in lynx, links or w3m, then try firefox/mozilla, opera, konqueror/ssafari or MSIE. Perfectly usable for all, and easy to make with a CSS based site. As someone remarked earlier there's work ongoing to CSS-ify the site even more, and it will be for the better in all respects, both usability and the "flashiness" that is somewhat missing. Have a nice day Morten -- http://m.mongers.org/weblog/ __END__ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 08:22:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1AA16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B20343D1D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBT8Mfv87971; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:50 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; > freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Simon Burke > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >What they care about is: 'can what I need done > >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me > >in to you' > > > > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d > and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever > got fired for buying IBM" > If you think about it, d and e are the same thing as a and c. What does support constitute to the average CEO? If you asked them they would say that it's the ability to pick up the phone and get the problem fixed, right? Well guess what - you can do that with FreeBSD, there's paid incident support here: http://www.bsdmall.com/fbsdpay4tech.html about the same cost as the Microsoft offering, as a matter of fact. If you tell them that, they will sit back, scratch their head, and eventually say something along the lines of 'well I can just call any joe blow in the yellow pages for windows questions' And they are right. Because there's lots of so-called 'windows consultants' out there who are to put it bluntly, so piss-poor that they will give you gobs of free-but-worthless support over the phone in an attempt to get an appointment with you for some billable time. And if that doesen't work well, my kid brother has a computer that he plays Doom on all the time so he must be a computer sexpert, right? The people selling commercial FreeBSD support want a lot of money - but in exchange you get support that is actually worth what you pay for. The people selling commercial Windows support are all over the map - some do want a lot of money for good support, others will take a little bit of money for crap support. The CEOs that don't know any better figure that the cheap support is as good as the expensive support - so they then classify the expensive support (both windows and freebsd) in the 'nonexistent' category and then tell you with a straight face that freebsd is not supported. Now, if your talking hardware support - then please, yes there's lots of cheapskates running offices who are buying winprinters so they can save $50, we know that. And paying double for the ink cartridges, yes I know that one too. And as for the every one else uses it - where do you see this most? It's in the companies that don't want to spend a cent on training people. They want to hire their secretaries out of the local 1 year business prep school and put them to work writing letters with Microsoft Word, because that is all the business prep school trains them to do. What is missed of course is that since those sorts of people are only good for plunking down in front of a Windows XP system with Microsoft Word on it, after those people get finished writing your Microsoft Word document, they spend the last 6 hours of the day downloading new screensavers, changing the fonts on their computers, instant messaging their friends, etc. If instead you plunked them down in front of a FreeBSD system running XFree, after they got done with writing the memo you wanted them to write, they would be unable to idle away time on the computer, and you might actually get some useful work out of them. If you don't believe this take a look at the Microsoft desktop offerings. Microsoft is belatedly waking up to this and ever since NT, a skilled Windows admin can go in and lock down every scrap of anything on all his Windows NT, 2K, or XP desktops so that the secretaries can't do anything other than what their job is. And more and more companies are starting to do this, or at least try doing it. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD > from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company > that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > you might be. But your fighting the hardest battle. Unlike you I'm out there showing them how many tens of thousands of dollars they are going to save by not buying a new server that is running XP Pro Server, and Microsoft Exchange, and all the other nasty proprietary business software that Microsoft has designed to leech onto your company. > > VERY few customers are willing to deviate > >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > > > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where > talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > The Linux people are also talking about desktops. In fact, they are concentrating more on the desktops now than on the servers, that is why the Linux distros all have GUI installers and the like. When was the last time you installed Linux? Today's Linux is designed to be installed by a non-technical user, same as Windows. > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously > >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Now thats just asinine. > Not it is not. He is trying to sell himself and his company. Why in the heck shouldn't he be directing his customers to himself and his companies website? Geeze - the FreeBSD website not only has FreeBSD info it has lists of OTHER consultants. Why on earth would a consultant making a presentation want to direct the customer to a site that would give the customer a list of competitors? > > > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX > is. at best they mistake it for Linux. > Then don't even mention UNIX or Windows at all. > >And rather > >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice > >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be > >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > > > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to > the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the > company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and > CIOs. > Exactly - which is why as I said before (and you cut) the sales presentation is going to be a dud if all you do is sit there talking about how great this FreeBSD product is. When you go into one of these sales deals the CEO should be told exactly TWO things: that you can solve his problem, and how much it's going to cost. Everything else in the presentation is simply a lead in for these two things. The problem is that too many people that do these kinds of presentations don't understand that what they are selling is themselves. They think that "I'm going to try to go into that there customer and sell them a new server" Nowhere in their thought processes is the idea that they are there to find out what the customers problem is exactly, and sell THEMSELVES as the solution to it. I've seen a lot of these presentations and been in a lot where the customer tells the presenter what his problem is and the first words out of the presenters mouth is 'well you need a new server' It's like you might as well leave then. The presenter should be saying 'well you don't have enough space/you don't have enough speed/ your network has no virus protection/you don't have a database/etc/etc/etc and WE CAN FIX that. In short, the presenter needs to regurgitate the customers problem, and tell the customer they can fix it, and how much it is gonna cost. Period. It's not the presenters job to tell the customer how they are going to fix it - if the customer knew that, the presenter wouldn't even be there. > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I > bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do > only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical > merit alone. > A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have never done consulting before and are just starting out. The var/integrator/consultancy market has a certain amount of attrition every year, companies form and break up every year. There's always new people coming into the market and old people leaving it. Some of those new consultants are going to have prior FreeBSD experience and will want to leverage that. The support they need from the FreeBSD Project is stuff like my book, good tech support assistance, and overall a strong stable OS. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:23:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB8F16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:23:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from eddie.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325EA43D1D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:23:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@eddie.nitro.dk) Received: by eddie.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA61119CD9; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:23:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:23:06 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Chris Zumbrunn Message-ID: <20041229182306.GD69078@eddie.nitro.dk> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:23:09 -0000 --mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.12.27 21:04:14 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > In the spirit of... >=20 > On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:00 AM, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >=20 > >If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I > >think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better > >website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the > >advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the > >mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... >=20 > First Page: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >=20 > On other pages, where appropriate: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif >=20 > An even more minimalist approach could be taken by just changing two=20 > existing images and adding two lines to the current CSS styles,=20 > yielding 95% of what the above screenshots show. First, I think it's great you actually did some work on this. I actually hadn't expected anything to come out of this thread :-). I think the "More Power To Serve" text should just be removed, but other than that I really like the look-and-feel of that grey bar. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFB0vYKh9pcDSc1mlERAuxAAKDLWGE3LkJYI9m9nPPJ0LQZPjL46ACfUoX7 g55OCQCkcYGeBOnctALdGjc= =GGBC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:40:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7D16A4CF; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C2043D54; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTIen84089866; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:40:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D2FB92.9020508@401.cx> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:46:42 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- From: >> owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger >> 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: >> Simon Burke Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual >> Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of >>>> the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. >>>> Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight >>>> to the point. But >> >> a redesign >> >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- >>>> without being ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its >>> supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of >>> people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and >>> easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If >>> the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people >>> who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but >>> either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to >>> look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand >> the problem. > > > Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD > integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand > the problem. > > >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all >> the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros >> seems to have today. > > > That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like > it because it works better than most commercial operating systems > let alone most operating systems. "The" reason? Like there was only one reason to like an os? I like FreeBSD due to its lack of bells and whistles, but I also like it due to its stability, performance, ease of use and license, among many other reasons. Maybe I should have made that more clear, I do not wish to come across as a guy that favours an os based on one reason alone. >> But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve >> the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom >> full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD >> in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts >> about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast >> performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look >> at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >> linux advocate instead. > > Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle > about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need > done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't > lock me in to you' I think we have a missunderstanding here. I already work for a big corporation. When I said that I was trying to sell FreeBSD, I meant that I was trying to get the company that I work for to chose FreeBSD over some other product. Im not a consultant of any kind, Im a fulltime employed technician trying to keep my employers network up and running. > FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. > Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C > and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > > The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO > and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source > provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm > locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that > your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no > competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I > trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am > ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or > daughter, and even then I may not. > > You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk > thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't > understand what your selling, they don't understand how to > integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand > their current system. As I explained earlier, Im not selling anything. We are several technicians at my company, some of us prefer BSD while others prefer linux, windows, sun or whatever the flavour of the day is. Everytime we get a new bunch of servers or a new task needs to be done, there is a religious war before we decide what os to use. Most of the time, the board wants a say in decisions like this, and BSD almost always loses this, due to a very unproffesional image. Since the company already has the expertise inhouse, the hardware has been ordered and everything is paid, they dont give a shit about price. When I tell them that BSD can do everything they want and do it good, they listen. When I tell them that its free, they listen but they dont really care. When the linux guys makes exactly the same claims and also is able to back it up with proffesional looking websites with success-stories cluttered all over them, they usually decide to go with linux and goes to lunch. [snip] >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to >> be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do >> something about it! >> > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. As I said, Im not a consultant or anything, Im just an employee. I do not have a website of my own. >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big >> corporation. >> > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here "Big" as in 6000 employees spread across a few european countries. > but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees > in an office building, then even you must know that the check > signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. > Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales > ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who > 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in > some university and the only thing that they really know well is > how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a > big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are > incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even > when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they > were doing. > > They don't really understand anything about technology > infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high > school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. > And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that > in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' > aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled > into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be > interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there > being any such thing as 'key employees' > > Why do you think that the current federal government administration > just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new > economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to > new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that > comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big > business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing > such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the > current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the > amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. > Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control > freaks. > > To be successful in todays market you have to be able to > individualize your products to what the customers in the market > want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without > really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business > workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your > product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the > same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter > version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to > integrate technology completely in every last speck of business > process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key > technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned > this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is > going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants > to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what > the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it > for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get > the hell out' > > Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these > CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big > words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and > even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is > something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than > telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server > is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast > and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea > that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your > providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does > something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start > asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked > into a technologists conversation. I advocate a more proffesional looking image, and you shoot me down and then tells me I need more bells and whistles in my presentations? Im confused! My arguments to improve FreeBSD's image are almost identical to the ones you listed above. For all I care the firstpage of freebsd.org could be a big picture of Schwartznegger with a BSD tattoe on his biceps, but try to suggest even a change of font on the site and people freak out. > > In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson > that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These > CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to > be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end > users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are > they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they > are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be > figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be > talking about operating systems until you have sold them on > yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to > them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to > build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and > after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > I could be wrong, but I think we are suggesting basically the same thing, just on different places. You seem to think that I should cover up FreeBSD's amateurish look by creating a protective shell of fancy words and presentations. I suggest that we put the energy on actually fixing the image, and thereby eliminating the need of a shell. Unfortunally, I have seen this discussion go down so many times by now that I already knows how it ends. The people that tries to make a difference is scared away by the "dont touch my website" crowd. I will continue to advocate the use of FreeBSD, with or without help from the official website, but Im still hoping that someday maybe people will realize that not all decisions are made based upon the quality of the source, but on general appearance as well. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:44:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0FD16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:44:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABE343D2F; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:44:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTIip84089914; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:44:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:50:44 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:44:54 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: [snip] > > Then we should create a website www.freebsdforcxo.com and use that. > The problem is that the base FreeBSD.org website should remain as it > is. It is targeted to technical people who might not be running a GUI > web browser and want quick access to information. > > Making it more pretty to sell, while destroying the usability for 99% > of the audience is not a solution. > Who said it cant be both? Why does people assume that an upgrade to freebsd.org would make it less usefull? Look at sun.com, they have a site that looks professional, is easy to use and targeted to tech-savvy users as well as corporate suits. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:54:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397F916A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:54:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail4.speakeasy.net (mail4.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80E843D54 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:54:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 1270 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 18:54:33 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Dec 2004 18:54:33 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (ktgbsh@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBTIsWGH048898; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBTIsVQL048897; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:54:31 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-ID: <20041229185431.GO19624@funkthat.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:54:34 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 19:50 +0100: > Look at sun.com, they have a site that looks professional, is easy to > use and targeted to tech-savvy users as well as corporate suits. Actually, I think sun.com is a bad example. It it not targeted to the technical audience... In all the times I've had to find docs and other related materials, it was always too many clicks away from the main page to start getting information.. (of course, once you learn, you go to docs.sun.com, or some other site, instead of www.sun.com)... and I usually end up breaking down to use search to find it... :( As long as we keep the left side bar, I'll be happy... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 19:17:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CDA16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C53B43D60; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041229191744i9100rftlee>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:49 +0000 Message-ID: <41D302D3.1090600@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:17:39 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Simon L. Nielsen" References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041229182306.GD69078@eddie.nitro.dk> In-Reply-To: <20041229182306.GD69078@eddie.nitro.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:51 -0000 Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >On 2004.12.27 21:04:14 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > >>In the spirit of... >> >>On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:00 AM, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >> >> >> >>>If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I >>>think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better >>>website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the >>>advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the >>>mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... >>> >>> >>First Page: >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >> >>On other pages, where appropriate: >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif >> >>An even more minimalist approach could be taken by just changing two >>existing images and adding two lines to the current CSS styles, >>yielding 95% of what the above screenshots show. >> >> > > > Excellent!, This is a step in the right direction. >First, I think it's great you actually did some work on this. I >actually hadn't expected anything to come out of this thread :-). > >I think the "More Power To Serve" text should just be removed, but >other than that I really like the look-and-feel of that grey bar. > > Or something like that, I think changing the slogan is a whole project in an of itself ;-) The slogan came from beatie and that fact that he was a "daemon" daemon: [Middle English, from Late Latin daemn, from Latin, spirit, from Greek daimn, divine power. See d- in Indo-European Roots.] 1. (in ancient Greek belief) a divinity or supernatural being of a nature between gods and humans. 1. mythology demigod: mythological being that is part-god and part-human 2. mythology guardian spirit: a guardian spirit 2. A spirit which guards a place or takes care of or helps a person. n. inward spirit; personality; genius. daemonic, a. Computer Science. A program or process that sits idly in the background until it is invoked to perform its task. /day'mn/ or /dee'mn/ n. [from the mythological meaning, later rationalized as the acronym `Disk And Execution MONitor'] A program that is not invoked explicitly, but lies dormant waiting for some condition(s) to occur. The idea is that the perpetrator of the condition need not be aware that a daemon is lurking (though often a program will commit an action only because it knows that it will implicitly invoke a daemon). For example, under ITS writing a file on the LPT spooler's directory would invoke the spooling daemon, which would then print the file. The advantage is that programs wanting (in this example) files printed need neither compete for access to nor understand any idiosyncrasies of the LPT. They simply enter their implicit requests and let the daemon decide what to do with them. Daemons are usually spawned automatically by the system, and may either live forever or be regenerated at intervals. Daemon and demon are often used interchangeably, but seem to have distinct connotations. The term `daemon' was introduced to computing by CTSS people (who pronounced it /dee'mon/) and used it to refer to what ITS called a dragon; the prototype was a program called DAEMON that automatically made tape backups of the file system. Although the meaning and the pronunciation have drifted, we think this glossary reflects current (2000) usage. - http://www.onelook.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 19:43:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5B116A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF11843D54; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041229194347i9100rfviee>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: <41D308EE.2060101@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:43:42 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> <20041229185431.GO19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041229185431.GO19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:49 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: >Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 19:50 +0100: > > >>Look at sun.com, they have a site that looks professional, is easy to >>use and targeted to tech-savvy users as well as corporate suits. >> >> > >Actually, I think sun.com is a bad example. It it not targeted to >the technical audience... In all the times I've had to find docs and >other related materials, it was always too many clicks away from the >main page to start getting information.. (of course, once you learn, >you go to docs.sun.com, or some other site, instead of www.sun.com)... >and I usually end up breaking down to use search to find it... :( > >As long as we keep the left side bar, I'll be happy... > > > The original reason I gave sun.com out was for the color scheme's etc. they have, I would never want the freebsd website as bloated as that :-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 20:04:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3925516A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:04:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost.ethernext.com (vhost.ethernext.com [66.28.75.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B3B343D5C for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:04:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu) Received: (qmail 41681 invoked by uid 2526); 29 Dec 2004 20:23:14 -0000 Received: from 12.8.180.42 ( [12.8.180.42]) as user pablo.delgado@localhost by webmail.lsi.mine.nu with HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:23:14 -0500 Message-ID: <1104351794.41d31232dc087@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:23:14 -0500 From: pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 12.8.180.42 Subject: BSD Certification ? Why not? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:04:04 -0000 Hello everyone, I usually never post anything, mainly just listen and learn. But just recently I was discussing with a friend on ways to help the FreeBSD project grow. And after looking at different aspects of things I came across a simple idea. I hope that everyone can comment and share there opinions and remember this is just an idea which I am hoping would help out the BSD community. And if the idea is already implemented then please simply disregard this message. Now, lets gets started. I spend a lot of time advocating FreeBSD to the corporate community, because they are a large source for funding and popularity. After careful analysis of every meeting with companies I have held, regarding the possibility of using FBSD in there networks, I noticed a pattern. Many companies fear the adoption of or implementation of an open source solution because (1) the fear that there is little to no support for the product, (2) the project may end leaving them with outdated piece of software and (3) there is no way to determine if the personnel they hired has the required knowledge to manage or support the application. The solution to the first problem exists (in my opinion) through the extensive amount of documentation that is available thanks to the people of the DOCUMENTATION PROJECT, and the mailing lists. I simply make businesses aware of the effort and resources. The second problem really has no solution; I just remind them that even a commercially supported application can die, if the company dies. Now the third problem is were I thought the community can develop further. Why not create a FreeBSD Certification Program. The community can form an non profit or profit organization (which ever suites best) and team (elected by the FreeBSD Foundation or the FreeBSD community, which ever works best) to design, develop and manage a certification program that will teach and test essential skills and knowledge needed to manage, support or develop the FreeBSD environment. Further more, we could invite the other BSDs to participate in the institute having a representative from each participating project to form the board, creating a larger organization (UnitedBSD Professional Institute, for example) in an effort to strengthen our relationships within the BSD world and push forward the awareness and availability of the excellent technology developed. Each project can develop a certification track that is specific to there operating system, and all projects involved will work to develop the intro courses that have general UNIX information or information that applies to all systems. NOTE: The FreeBSD community together should decide weather they will collaborate with other BSD projects with regards to the certification institute. Again I am just throwing ideas. The Institute will also have liaisons, that will work with businesses that wish to hire FreeBSD or *BSD certified professionals or train there employees to support the new or existing FreeBSD or *BSD environment. It can also have a support line for companies, admins or users that wish to email or call for emergency support (which is one of the things they fear not having the most). And finally, there can be a PR team dedicated to pushing FreeBSD awareness to the world. I believe that this will allow the FreeBSD or *BSD community to grow because (1) the money earned from the support, courses and certifications taken will serve as additional funding for the project, (2) give companies a way to determine if an individual has the skill require to maintain there BSD environment, and (3) make the world even more aware of us! Well that concludes my idea. Hope to hear everyone’s comments, make them nice please, and inputs or modifications. Regards, Pablo Delgado ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 20:14:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83BE16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4049743D39; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041229201409i9100rfrjse>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:09 +0000 Message-ID: <41D3100C.7070709@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:14:04 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: getting the attn of core X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:10 -0000 I think we got the attn of core, yes? M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> > Nikolas Britton writes: > : M. Warner Losh wrote: > : : >In message: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> > : > Nikolas Britton writes: > : >: Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice > is : >: unheard... > : > > : >Clearly you have no idea about how core works. I've read every single > : >message in this thread, but have thought it better to let it run its > : >coarse to see what the consensus of the community was. That's clearly > : >listening to the voices of all those concerned. > : > > : >Warner > : > > : > : > > : I was generalizing. but now that I got your ear what is the core > team : doing about PR and Martketing, and why is the "Public Relations > & : Corporate Liaison" seat open? see the "FreeBSD's Visual Identity: > : Outdated?" and freebsd foundation threads on -questions for more info. > > We are well aware of the issues here, and have talked about them in > some depth. We'd planned on launching our efforts to fix the > problems, if any truly exist, after the first of the year when people > are back from their holidays. Thats good to know, sounds like some progress... keep us informed and I'm willing to help if needed. > Also, there's never been a PR seat, so > to complain that it is open is like complaining that the village idiot > seat is open... That critism is unwarranted. Ok (sorry), then there is the first thing to fix, delete it from this page: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/staff-who.html > In the past, PR has > been done by the cdrom companies, but their monitary incentives for > doing that is now way down since cdrom sales have dropped so much over > the years. The FreeBSD Foundation is an independent entity, over > which core has no control. > > Warner > > > _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 21:17:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EBF16A4D4; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F6643D5A; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041229211733i92002ah50e>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:17:29 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I >>bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do >>only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical >>merit alone. >> >> >> > >A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience >isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a >consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they >can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have >never done consulting before and >are just starting out. > > > > This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 23:41:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1359816A4CF for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:41:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ABB43D4C for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:41:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from omegadraconis@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so26812wri for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:41:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Dn2Hl4WWUbhfiSoQFxEByvumiykyKyzvt0utWZD/ksXG3QwfV5W+Hls7W31bTtbOnvvNEKrzK/8babyZcy+oEzERjcJQhOD7zIGolCsnmTE42+Tw1nW+ymGJ4AbE6PMvoLVOznhlfbBq6hcfJcb1/c5ZEgGlcdjmepTWwNd7X/o= Received: by 10.54.27.69 with SMTP id a69mr191915wra; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.47.40 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:41:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:41:38 -0500 From: To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041229120044.278D816A4D6@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041229120044.278D816A4D6@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 84, Issue 3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: omegadraconis@gmail.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:41:40 -0000 > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:50:29 -0700 > From: Jon Drews > Subject: Re: How to deploy FreeBSD desktops ? > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <8cb27cbf04122806501424c274@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Thanks so much Guys: > > I would also like to ask what was the reaction from the end users > when they began using the FreeBSD desktops? I ask because I installed > some NetBSD 1.6.2 desktops for students, at a small University center > here. The NetBSD worked very well in my opinion. I had Gnuplot, Scilab > and Gnumeric installed for the students, along with Firefox 1.0. I > also got sound working on them and the NetBSD boxes can play mp3's, > CD's or stream Ogg Vorbis (from Virgin Radio). > However the students complained about having to log in, which I > thought was odd. They don't use them much and are reluctant to learn > the basic commands (startx, shutdown -h now etc. ). Being the typical collage student, well I'm a bit more opensource than most but, I know a few and their not going to want to learn a bunch of new commands. They are all looking for the a gui not command line. I don't know too many of my friends who know any windows commands let alone a unix command. > Also I did not > install Xdm/Gdm and had them use "startx". I guess that was a big > mistake. I did that because these computers are old (255 MHz PII - 400 > MHz PIII) with about 150 Mb of ram on each. I wanted as much memory > free as possible. I was using Xfce 4 and Gnome 2.8 as the desktops. A > guy who is a sysadmin advised me to install Kde, so I did. However it > took quite a while to compile so I only did it on one machine. I would recommend using a gui called fluxbox(www.fluxbox.org). It's light wieght, has some nice themes and also will run both kde and gnome programs. I think you did go the right way with installing the music software (mp3, ogg, etc.) and firefox but, the collage student will probably want to have some im software like gaim or some other things like that. Also I would make sure that you have flash and java plug-ins installed for firefox. > Still > the students were reluctant to use them. Truth be told I have not been > able to meet with them that often. I did the installs as a volunteer > project. I would think the NetBSD boxes would have appealed to them as > I have some nice software installed on them. I also included, > Gperiodic (periodic table of elements), Rasmol (molecular viewer) and > GTK Chemtool (molecular drawing), for the chemistry and biology > students. Where have I gone wrong and what should I do to entice the > students to give them a try ? Most collage kids aren't going to know what Gperiodic or any of the other programs are. Mabey try having an faq or something like that pop-up when they login to tell them hey this is what this program is or does and this the where to find the help file. Best of luck, Jason Hensler > > On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:19:16 -0500, Jan Schaumann > wrote: > > Shamelessly plugging myself :-), I'd like to point out that I presented > > a framework for just this at EuroBSDCon this year. Well, not FreeBSD > > desktops, but NetBSD, but the underlying principle is obviously the > > same. So you may find this paper helpful: > > > > http://www.netbsd.org/~jschauma/netbsd-desktop.pdf > > http://www.netbsd.org/~jschauma/netbsd-desktop-slides.pdf > > Thanks so much Jan, I will be looking into these. > > Kind regards > Jonathan > > ------------------------------ -- Jason Hensler omegadraconis@gmail.com Aim: jasonhensler From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 00:32:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8668D16A4CE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from schlepper.zs64.net (schlepper.zs64.net [212.12.50.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0263643D2D; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (schlepper [212.12.50.230]) by schlepper.zs64.net (8.13.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id iBU0WBAE000914; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) In-Reply-To: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> References: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D6982C4-59FA-11D9-8D31-000A95C893E4@lassitu.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stefan Bethke Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:09 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 -0000 It was fun while it lasted. Please stop. If you have to, move this to chat. -- Stefan Bethke Fon +49 170 346 0140 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 03:30:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B659116A4CF for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:30:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD01A43D39 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:30:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 03:30:22 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:30:17 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <1104351794.41d31232dc087@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <1104351794.41d31232dc087@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412291930.17612.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: BSD Certification ? Why not? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:30:26 -0000 On Wednesday 29 December 2004 12:23 pm, pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu wrote: > Why not create a FreeBSD Certification Program. The community can > form an non profit or profit organization (which ever suites best) > and team (elected by the FreeBSD Foundation or the FreeBSD community, > which ever works best) to design, develop and manage a certification > program that will teach and test essential skills and knowledge > needed to manage, support or develop the FreeBSD environment. There is one at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/ It's the only one I know of, and it's the only one officially approved by the FreeBSD team. As that is the case, I'm sure more people doing this would be welcome, but I don't speak for FreeBSD or what they might actually want to have happen. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 03:53:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C5716A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6850343D2F for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:53:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1CjrMY-0003th-00; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:52:34 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:52:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Joshua Tinnin In-Reply-To: <200412291930.17612.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification ? Why not? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 03:53:07 -0000 On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Wednesday 29 December 2004 12:23 pm, pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu wrote: > > Why not create a FreeBSD Certification Program. The community can > > form an non profit or profit organization (which ever suites best) > > and team (elected by the FreeBSD Foundation or the FreeBSD community, > > which ever works best) to design, develop and manage a certification > > program that will teach and test essential skills and knowledge > > needed to manage, support or develop the FreeBSD environment. > > There is one at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. > http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/ Thanks for the link. It is always good to hear about *BSD classes being offered. I don't see anything about "certification" or evaluating skills there other than it says complete the three stages and receive certification. It just looks like normal FreeBSD classes like I have been teaching for around four years (which also have a "certificate of course completion"). Except they say "eLearning" -- my classes are in a real classroom environment. (We do hope to soon start providing *BSD training with video soon ... starting with Apache Web Server Administration.) > It's the only one I know of, and it's the only one officially approved > by the FreeBSD team. As that is the case, I'm sure more people doing > this would be welcome, but I don't speak for FreeBSD or what they might > actually want to have happen. Where can I find out more about being "officially approved by the FreeBSD team"? Jeremy C. Reed technical support & remote administration http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 04:40:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F52716A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:40:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DDD43D2D for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:40:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041230044019i92002apvfe>; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:40:20 +0000 Message-ID: <41D386AE.30300@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:40:14 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu References: <1104351794.41d31232dc087@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <1104351794.41d31232dc087@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification ? Why not? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 04:40:21 -0000 pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu wrote: >Hello everyone, > >I usually never post anything, mainly just listen and learn. But just recently I >was discussing with a friend on ways to help the FreeBSD project grow. And after >looking at different aspects of things I came across a simple idea. I hope that >everyone can comment and share there opinions and remember this is just an idea >which I am hoping would help out the BSD community. And if the idea is already >implemented then please simply disregard this message. > >Now, lets gets started. I spend a lot of time advocating FreeBSD to the >corporate community, because they are a large source for funding and popularity. >After careful analysis of every meeting with companies I have held, regarding >the possibility of using FBSD in there networks, I noticed a pattern. Many >companies fear the adoption of or implementation of an open source solution >because (1) the fear that there is little to no support for the product, (2) the >project may end leaving them with outdated piece of software and (3) there is no >way to determine if the personnel they hired has the required knowledge to >manage or support the application. > >The solution to the first problem exists (in my opinion) through the extensive >amount of documentation that is available thanks to the people of the >DOCUMENTATION PROJECT, and the mailing lists. I simply make businesses aware of >the effort and resources. The second problem really has no solution; I just >remind them that even a commercially supported application can die, if the >company dies. Now the third problem is were I thought the community can develop >further. > >Why not create a FreeBSD Certification Program. The community can form an non >profit or profit organization (which ever suites best) and team (elected by the >FreeBSD Foundation or the FreeBSD community, which ever works best) to design, >develop and manage a certification program that will teach and test essential >skills and knowledge needed to manage, support or develop the FreeBSD environment. > > Have a look at SAGE Certification: http://www.sage.org/cert/ Thats problely the best you'll find for essential *nix administration test/cert, heck it's the only one I know of. >Further more, we could invite the other BSDs to participate in the institute >having a representative from each participating project to form the board, >creating a larger organization (UnitedBSD Professional Institute, for example) >in an effort to strengthen our relationships within the BSD world and push >forward the awareness and availability of the excellent technology developed. >Each project can develop a certification track that is specific to there >operating system, and all projects involved will work to develop the intro >courses that have general UNIX information or information that applies to all >systems. > >NOTE: The FreeBSD community together should decide weather they will collaborate >with other BSD projects with regards to the certification institute. Again I am >just throwing ideas. > > Sounds like a great idea, we'll call it UBSDi... I heard they where going to do something like that after the website redesign. >The Institute will also have liaisons, that will work with businesses that wish >to hire FreeBSD or *BSD certified professionals or train there employees to >support the new or existing FreeBSD or *BSD environment. It can also have a >support line for companies, admins or users that wish to email or call for >emergency support (which is one of the things they fear not having the most). >And finally, there can be a PR team dedicated to pushing FreeBSD awareness to >the world. > >I believe that this will allow the FreeBSD or *BSD community to grow because (1) >the money earned from the support, courses and certifications taken will serve >as additional funding for the project, (2) give companies a way to determine if >an individual has the skill require to maintain there BSD environment, and (3) >make the world even more aware of us! > >Well that concludes my idea. Hope to hear everyone’s comments, make them nice >please, and inputs or modifications. > >Regards, >Pablo Delgado > > Good idea's but I think your talking to the wind. If they fight us tooth and nail for suggesting a simple website redesign then I'd hate to imagine what they'd think of this. If you want certifications then have them look for other ones from RedHat, IBM, HP, Sun's programs etc.... AIX, *BSD, Tru64, Solaris, HP-UX, IRIX, Linux, SCO, etc. are all UNIX or "UNIX Like" and this is why there collectively group as *nix and why if you know one then you know the other one (or can "quickly" get up to speed). If you'd want to break them down into groups, then I think it would look something like this: SysV UNIX, BSD UNIX, and Linux. and anyone who knows old school Solaris will also know BSD UNIX. One thing I thought would be cool (but very expensive) would be to get FreeBSD UNIX certified by the open group. then we could use the UNIX trademark on everything and brag about it when your in the board meetings and such. Anyways, have a good day.... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 05:19:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E5216A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:19:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D749243D2F for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:19:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2004 05:19:54 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:19:54 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412292119.54766.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Tim Kellers Subject: Re: BSD Certification ? Why not? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:19:55 -0000 On Wednesday 29 December 2004 07:52 pm, "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > On Wednesday 29 December 2004 12:23 pm, pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu wrote: > > > Why not create a FreeBSD Certification Program. The community can > > > form an non profit or profit organization (which ever suites > > > best) and team (elected by the FreeBSD Foundation or the FreeBSD > > > community, which ever works best) to design, develop and manage a > > > certification program that will teach and test essential skills > > > and knowledge needed to manage, support or develop the FreeBSD > > > environment. > > > > There is one at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. > > http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/ > > Thanks for the link. It is always good to hear about *BSD classes > being offered. > > I don't see anything about "certification" or evaluating skills there > other than it says complete the three stages and receive > certification. Yes, there you go. > It just looks like normal FreeBSD classes like I have been teaching > for around four years (which also have a "certificate of course > completion"). Perhaps that's true, but in any case the certification is considered valid by at least FreeBSD. I'm not sure what it means to the industry in general, but there is some guarantee that you will know your FreeBSD stuff if you go that route. > Except they say "eLearning" -- my classes are in a real classroom > environment. (We do hope to soon start providing *BSD training with > video soon ... starting with Apache Web Server Administration.) The classes are offered both on campus and online. > > It's the only one I know of, and it's the only one officially > > approved by the FreeBSD team. As that is the case, I'm sure more > > people doing this would be welcome, but I don't speak for FreeBSD > > or what they might actually want to have happen. > > Where can I find out more about being "officially approved by the > FreeBSD team"? I'm not sure, but I'll CC this to Tim Kellers, who is the instructor and author of the course in question. It may take a while for him to respond, considering school schedules and such. As Tim put it in an earlier email to the -questions list, "The NJIT curriculum, while non-credit and classified as 'Professional Development' is the Only University level course in the world that is both sanctioned as a bona fide certificate program (certificate endorsed by NJIT) AND endorsed by the FreeBSD foundation.  (If you don't believe me, e-mail Robert Watson of the core FreeBSD team.)" I'm not in any way speaking for him, but I've looked into it in the past, so I had the information about it handy. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 08:45:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4218016A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:45:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B779843D58 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:45:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBU8j0v93173; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:45:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:44:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:45:06 -0000 If they are going to be scared off at first contact by the existing website, do you think they would ever amount to an asset to the FreeBSD Project? We only have a limited amount of time to help people come up to speed with FreeBSD - at some point you have to throw them in and they need to swim for themselves. Were YOU scared off by the website? Obviously not - why are these other folks different than you? Ted > -----Original Message----- > From: Nikolas Britton [mailto:freebsd@nbritton.org] > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:17 PM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; > freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Simon Burke > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, > integrators, vars, etc. I > >>bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do > >>only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical > >>merit alone. > >> > >> > >> > > > >A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience > >isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a > >consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they > >can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have > >never done consulting before and > >are just starting out. > > > > > > > > > > This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How > are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first > contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? > > > Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 19:46:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B4116A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:46:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D7043D41 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:46:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:3212) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Ck6G6-0007CK-4g; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:46:54 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:39:49 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641A09@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: Ramiro Aceves Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:58:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:46:56 -0000 > From: Karol Kwiatkowski [mailto:freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org] > > A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the > devil. It's a daemon. > BSD Daemon. I would also like to point out the numerous sports teams with "demon" or "devil" in their name, and their pointy-tailed, pointy-horned, red-skinned mascots. I would also like to point out the logo of a popular brand of deviled ham. Etc, etc. The point is, there are numerous examples of devils, demons and daemons out in the "real" world, and none of them get the grief that Beastie does. I suspect no one has any problem with Beastie other than trolling Linux advocates and hypersensitive BSD advocates.