From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 22 09:55:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9EE16A4CE for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:55:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fatcity.com (www.fatcity.com [66.27.56.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C39E43D1D for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:55:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listguru@fatcity.com) Received: by fatcity.com (wcMail) id 08801W Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:55:08 -0800 From: listguru@fatcity.com Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:55:02 -0800 Message-Id: <1101117304@fatcity.com> Organization: Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California, USA To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: wcMail v5.4.449.1 Subject: Response to your ListGuru session [MsgId AA20041122.015502.3] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:55:42 -0000 -- Your message was directed to ListGuru for processing, but it did not appear to contain any ListGuru commands. 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If you have further problems with commands, and/or are unable to achieve the result you desire, send an E-mail message to: ListMaster@fatcity.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 23 16:57:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A0516A4CE; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:57:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail804.megamailservers.com (mail804.carrierinternetsolutions.com [69.49.106.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232AD43D8C; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:57:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) X-POP-User: strick.covad.net Received: from mist.nodomain (h-67-101-98-45.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net [67.101.98.45])iANGv90A026667; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:57:10 -0500 Received: from mist.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mist.nodomain (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iANGv8pM000710; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:57:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mist.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mist.nodomain (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iANGv8Ps000709; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:57:08 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:57:14 -0000 On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:34:11 +0000, Mick Walker wrote: >> > ... > Now, getting to the point, I was shocked when I went into the toilet > facilities in the pub, and found one of those vending machines that sell > novelty items of a sexual nature, featuring on the design something that > looked remarkably similar to the BSD Daemon. > ... > The company that supplies these vending machines is called Naughty Vend > (http://www.naughtyvend.com/). I have checked their site, and I find no > reference to and copyright credits to the original artist. To the best > of my knowledge, the BSD Daemon is copyrighted by Marshall Kirk > McKusick. > Is this a case of copyright theft? As obviously they are a profit making > company. Or have i got totally the wrong end of the stick. > ... >> (I suggest this thread be moved to the chat mailing list.) It is not clear that copyright law applies here. I doubt that the concept of a cute demon is copyrightable. In order to be a copyright violation, it might have to be obvious that the *only* way the vending machine daemon could have been composed was to intentionally copy a daemon image whose copyright is held by Kirk McKusick. (This one does look an awful lot like some versions of the BSD daemon.) Trademark law might be more relevant. Even though though the vending machine belongs to a marketplace not obviously connected to one in which Kirk McKusick uses his daemons as a trademark, the vending machine machine image does include a URL and I suppose one could at least argue that the vending machine usage damages the value McKusick's trademark by associating it with a product that protects a bunch of ... :-) A further complication is that Naughty International Limited is a European company and the alleged property rights violation occurred in Europe. These issues are a bit subtle. If you really care about them, you should ask a lawyer who works with intellectual property rights law. Dan Strick From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 23 21:10:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9486116A4CF for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:10:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356F443D2D for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:10:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041123211008.WMLQ4835.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:10:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:13:06 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041123131306.516cbb7c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> References: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0beta3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:10:09 -0000 On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:57:08 -0800 (PST) Dan Strick wrote: > It is not clear that copyright law applies here. I doubt that the > concept of a cute demon is copyrightable. If it is, McKusick should probably worry more about Harvey Comics; they did it first... http://home.att.net/~thft/hot.htm -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 03:24:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6330916A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:24:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cromagnon.cullmail.com (cromagnon.cullmail.com [67.33.58.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5C943D5C; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:24:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jamoore@cromagnon.cullmail.com) Received: from cromagnon.cullmail.com (localhost.cullmail.com [127.0.0.1]) iAO3LwOL046502; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:21:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jamoore@cromagnon.cullmail.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by cromagnon.cullmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAO3Lwf8046501; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:21:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jamoore) From: Jay Moore To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:21:57 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411232121.57813.jaymo@cromagnon.cullmail.com> cc: Dan Strick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jaymo@cromagnon.cullmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:24:55 -0000 On Tuesday 23 November 2004 10:57 am, Dan Strick wrote: > (I suggest this thread be moved to the chat mailing list.) > > It is not clear that copyright law applies here. I doubt that the concept > of a cute demon is copyrightable. In order to be a copyright violation, > it might have to be obvious that the *only* way the vending machine daemon > could have been composed was to intentionally copy a daemon image whose > copyright is held by Kirk McKusick. (This one does look an awful lot like > some versions of the BSD daemon.) > > Trademark law might be more relevant. Even though though the vending > machine belongs to a marketplace not obviously connected to one in which > Kirk McKusick uses his daemons as a trademark, the vending machine machine > image does include a URL and I suppose one could at least argue that the > vending machine usage damages the value McKusick's trademark by > associating it with a product that protects a bunch of ... :-) > > A further complication is that Naughty International Limited is a European > company and the alleged property rights violation occurred in Europe. > > These issues are a bit subtle. If you really care about them, you should > ask a lawyer who works with intellectual property rights law. > > Dan Strick Poppycock, Dan... don't be a stick in the mud. The issues aren't subtle at all. And why should the OP consult an attorney about it? It's not his TM/copyrighted work/IP... I think he did "the right thing" by posting it here; perhaps the owner will learn about it, and can make his own decision about if/how to pursue it. Jay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 06:25:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F83916A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:25:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BF143D45; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:25:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iAO6Omv13947; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Dan Strick" , Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:24:48 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:25:39 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Dan Strick > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:57 AM > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; dan@mist.nodomain > Subject: Re: Copyright Issues > > > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:34:11 +0000, Mick Walker wrote: > >> > > ... > > Now, getting to the point, I was shocked when I went into the toilet > > facilities in the pub, and found one of those vending machines that sell > > novelty items of a sexual nature, featuring on the design something that > > looked remarkably similar to the BSD Daemon. > > ... > > The company that supplies these vending machines is called Naughty Vend > > (http://www.naughtyvend.com/). I have checked their site, and I find no > > reference to and copyright credits to the original artist. To the best > > of my knowledge, the BSD Daemon is copyrighted by Marshall Kirk > > McKusick. > > Is this a case of copyright theft? As obviously they are a profit making > > company. Or have i got totally the wrong end of the stick. > > ... > >> > > (I suggest this thread be moved to the chat mailing list.) > > It is not clear that copyright law applies here. No, it IS clear that copyright law applies here. See: http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html Copyright applies to images, that is why you can't use an image of Micky Mouse on your stuff. > I doubt that the concept > of a cute demon is copyrightable. Correct. The definition of a "cute demon" is very broad. > In order to be a copyright violation, > it might have to be obvious that the *only* way the vending machine daemon > could have been composed was to intentionally copy a daemon image whose > copyright is held by Kirk McKusick. (This one does look an awful lot like > some versions of the BSD daemon.) > That is not true. All that is required is that it closely resembles the image, I believe the language is something along the lines that if it is likely consumers would confuse the images then it's a violation. This of course is where the pedal meets the metal. The image on the condom dispenser is an infringement - in my opinion. The difficulty is convincing a court of law. > > A further complication is that Naughty International Limited is a European > company and the alleged property rights violation occurred in Europe. > Doesen't matter. All countries in Europe that are members of the EU had to modify their copyright laws to bring them into compliance with the Berne convention, just to join the EU. And all signatories to the convention (which is just about every civilized country) are obligated to adjust their laws to match. Failing to do so automatically recinds copyright protection for anything created in that country - for example if Nigeria didn't sign, any books written in Nigeria by a Nigerian resident would not be uncopyrightable, etc. > These issues are a bit subtle. If you really care about them, you should > ask a lawyer who works with intellectual property rights law. > No you shouldn't. You ask a lawyer to file a lawsuit, but you can do basic research on copyright law on the Internet very easily. You have a lot more money than I do if you ask lawyers for answers anytime you have a legal question. In this instance Kirk has nothing to lose by sending the infringers a cease-and-desist letter. I'm sure it's very easy for them to get someone to draw another image, and they probably didn't realize the image was copyrighted. As long as they respond and change the image for future vending machines, that is enough to preserve Kirks control over the image. Besides, I am amazed this company hasn't already had problems with theft, if one of these condom dispensers showed up around here, I can think of a dozen people who would be trying to figure out how to steal it. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 07:01:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B188F16A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from theatre.msu.edu (theatre.msu.edu [35.8.69.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3631E43D1D; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sagejona@theatre.msu.edu) Received: from [10.0.0.98] (c-67-172-92-122.client.comcast.net [67.172.92.122]) (authenticated bits=0) by theatre.msu.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iAO71NYF026906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:01:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sagejona@theatre.msu.edu) Message-ID: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:01:30 -0500 From: "Jonathan T. Sage" Organization: MSU Dept of Theatre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime X-Phone: +1-517-974-1428 X-WWW-Home-Page: http://theatre.msu.edu X-PGP-Key-Figerprint: 182C CF3F 93A9 1DAA 2EBE D4D5 A159 96D9 452E A7F1 X-IM: AIM(jonathantsage,spartyman), ICQ(9587621), YIM(wisesage98) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C" X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on www.theatre.msu.edu X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040903, clamav-milter version 0.75l on www.theatre.msu.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Besides, I am amazed this company hasn't already had problems with theft, > if one of these condom dispensers showed up around here, I can think of > a dozen people who would be trying to figure out how to steal it. > and on that note, did they continue that copyright infringment on the actual product? Cause my spidey sense is sensing that machine being sold out soon. (come on, you're all thinking how much you want a daemon packaged condom on your workstation. admit it.) ~j -- Jonathan T. Sage Theatrical Lighting / Set Designer Professional Web Design "He said he likes me, but he's not in-like with me."- Connie, King of the Hill [HTTP://www.JTSage.com] [HTTP://design.JTSage.com] [sagejona@msu.edu] [See Headers for Contact Info] --------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBpDHKoVmW2UUup/ERAhtzAJwMP6HwF/gBz8V6eYp+abSrNr5whQCeLxeg t+HqkCsVQV3gn8pY8+Fjlu8= =D9dM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 07:24:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AD716A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:24:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C163F43D4C; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:24:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CWrWb-000E2S-2b; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:25:13 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:25:13 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: "Jonathan T. Sage" Message-ID: <20041124072513.GN65445@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:24:54 -0000 On Wed, Nov 24, 2004 at 02:01:30AM -0500, Jonathan T. Sage wrote: > and on that note, did they continue that copyright infringment on the=20 > actual product? Cause my spidey sense is sensing that machine being sold= =20 > out soon. (come on, you're all thinking how much you want a daemon=20 > packaged condom on your workstation. admit it.) I've heard it called many, many things before but I think that's the first time I've heard somebody refer to it as a "workstation". Your partner is either very geeky, or very tolerant... Why do I get the feeling that we're now going to be bombarded with slang terms, pet names (we really, really, really don't want to do pet names by the way - I have no interest in knowing what various committers call their genitals), double and single entendres and this is all going to get very homoerotic and slightly uncomfortable to watch? --=20 Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/=20 "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 16:33:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4BB16A502; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from r1a.corp.servercentral.net (exchange.corp.servercentral.net [66.225.247.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618F043D55; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sagejona@theatre.msu.edu) Received: from mail pickup service by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:33:41 -0600 Received: from demandindustries.net ([161.58.224.124]) by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:02:05 -0600 Received: from scanner.servercentral.net (scanner.servercentral.net [66.225.196.47]) by demandindustries.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAO726ES005917 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:02:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF278700C3 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:01:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from scanner.servercentral.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01106-04 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:01:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80BF8700BF for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:01:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60F556715; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE1A16A505; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:37 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B188F16A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from theatre.msu.edu (theatre.msu.edu [35.8.69.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3631E43D1D; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:01:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sagejona@theatre.msu.edu) Received: from [10.0.0.98] (c-67-172-92-122.client.comcast.net [67.172.92.122]) (authenticated bits=0) by theatre.msu.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iAO71NYF026906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:01:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sagejona@theatre.msu.edu) Message-ID: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 02:01:30 -0500 From: "Jonathan T. Sage" Organization: MSU Dept of Theatre User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime X-Phone: +1-517-974-1428 X-WWW-Home-Page: http://theatre.msu.edu X-PGP-Key-Figerprint: 182C CF3F 93A9 1DAA 2EBE D4D5 A159 96D9 452E A7F1 X-IM: AIM(jonathantsage,spartyman), ICQ(9587621), YIM(wisesage98) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C" X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on www.theatre.msu.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis for cervercentral.net X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2004 07:02:05.0369 (UTC) FILETIME=[8188A290:01C4D1F3] cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Besides, I am amazed this company hasn't already had problems with theft, > if one of these condom dispensers showed up around here, I can think of > a dozen people who would be trying to figure out how to steal it. > and on that note, did they continue that copyright infringment on the actual product? Cause my spidey sense is sensing that machine being sold out soon. (come on, you're all thinking how much you want a daemon packaged condom on your workstation. admit it.) ~j -- Jonathan T. Sage Theatrical Lighting / Set Designer Professional Web Design "He said he likes me, but he's not in-like with me."- Connie, King of the Hill [HTTP://www.JTSage.com] [HTTP://design.JTSage.com] [sagejona@msu.edu] [See Headers for Contact Info] --------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBpDHKoVmW2UUup/ERAhtzAJwMP6HwF/gBz8V6eYp+abSrNr5whQCeLxeg t+HqkCsVQV3gn8pY8+Fjlu8= =D9dM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig7B512E2C64552485E472384C-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 16:33:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D257816A4D0; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from r1a.corp.servercentral.net (exchange.corp.servercentral.net [66.225.247.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7589A43D1D; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail pickup service by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:33:48 -0600 Received: from demandindustries.net ([161.58.224.124]) by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:26:46 -0600 Received: from scanner.servercentral.net (scanner.servercentral.net [66.225.196.47]) by demandindustries.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAO6Qkgo097978 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:26:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45948700C0 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:26:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from scanner.servercentral.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00738-10 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:26:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A1C8700BF for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:26:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D63455E92; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:26:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3142B16A4DF; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:26:36 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F83916A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:25:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BF143D45; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:25:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iAO6Omv13947; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Dan Strick" , Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:24:48 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis for cervercentral.net X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2004 06:26:47.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[92E57770:01C4D1EE] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:33:57 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Dan Strick > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 8:57 AM > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; dan@mist.nodomain > Subject: Re: Copyright Issues > > > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:34:11 +0000, Mick Walker wrote: > >> > > ... > > Now, getting to the point, I was shocked when I went into the toilet > > facilities in the pub, and found one of those vending machines that sell > > novelty items of a sexual nature, featuring on the design something that > > looked remarkably similar to the BSD Daemon. > > ... > > The company that supplies these vending machines is called Naughty Vend > > (http://www.naughtyvend.com/). I have checked their site, and I find no > > reference to and copyright credits to the original artist. To the best > > of my knowledge, the BSD Daemon is copyrighted by Marshall Kirk > > McKusick. > > Is this a case of copyright theft? As obviously they are a profit making > > company. Or have i got totally the wrong end of the stick. > > ... > >> > > (I suggest this thread be moved to the chat mailing list.) > > It is not clear that copyright law applies here. No, it IS clear that copyright law applies here. See: http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html Copyright applies to images, that is why you can't use an image of Micky Mouse on your stuff. > I doubt that the concept > of a cute demon is copyrightable. Correct. The definition of a "cute demon" is very broad. > In order to be a copyright violation, > it might have to be obvious that the *only* way the vending machine daemon > could have been composed was to intentionally copy a daemon image whose > copyright is held by Kirk McKusick. (This one does look an awful lot like > some versions of the BSD daemon.) > That is not true. All that is required is that it closely resembles the image, I believe the language is something along the lines that if it is likely consumers would confuse the images then it's a violation. This of course is where the pedal meets the metal. The image on the condom dispenser is an infringement - in my opinion. The difficulty is convincing a court of law. > > A further complication is that Naughty International Limited is a European > company and the alleged property rights violation occurred in Europe. > Doesen't matter. All countries in Europe that are members of the EU had to modify their copyright laws to bring them into compliance with the Berne convention, just to join the EU. And all signatories to the convention (which is just about every civilized country) are obligated to adjust their laws to match. Failing to do so automatically recinds copyright protection for anything created in that country - for example if Nigeria didn't sign, any books written in Nigeria by a Nigerian resident would not be uncopyrightable, etc. > These issues are a bit subtle. If you really care about them, you should > ask a lawyer who works with intellectual property rights law. > No you shouldn't. You ask a lawyer to file a lawsuit, but you can do basic research on copyright law on the Internet very easily. You have a lot more money than I do if you ask lawyers for answers anytime you have a legal question. In this instance Kirk has nothing to lose by sending the infringers a cease-and-desist letter. I'm sure it's very easy for them to get someone to draw another image, and they probably didn't realize the image was copyrighted. As long as they respond and change the image for future vending machines, that is enough to preserve Kirks control over the image. Besides, I am amazed this company hasn't already had problems with theft, if one of these condom dispensers showed up around here, I can think of a dozen people who would be trying to figure out how to steal it. Ted _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 16:34:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC68C16A53A; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:34:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from r1a.corp.servercentral.net (exchange.corp.servercentral.net [66.225.247.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F0C43D2D; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:34:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jaymo@cromagnon.cullmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:34:00 -0600 Received: from demandindustries.net ([161.58.224.124]) by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:20:22 -0600 Received: from scanner.servercentral.net (scanner.servercentral.net [66.225.196.47]) by demandindustries.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAO3PXGG057566 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:25:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 441C08700A7 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:25:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from scanner.servercentral.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32090-05 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:25:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D668700A3 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:25:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0456A55505; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:25:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F3B16A507; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:25:00 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6330916A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:24:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cromagnon.cullmail.com (cromagnon.cullmail.com [67.33.58.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5C943D5C; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:24:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jamoore@cromagnon.cullmail.com) Received: from cromagnon.cullmail.com (localhost.cullmail.com [127.0.0.1]) iAO3LwOL046502; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:21:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jamoore@cromagnon.cullmail.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by cromagnon.cullmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAO3Lwf8046501; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:21:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jamoore) From: Jay Moore To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:21:57 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411232121.57813.jaymo@cromagnon.cullmail.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis for cervercentral.net X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2004 06:20:23.0741 (UTC) FILETIME=[AE727ED0:01C4D1ED] cc: Dan Strick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: jaymo@cromagnon.cullmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:34:08 -0000 On Tuesday 23 November 2004 10:57 am, Dan Strick wrote: > (I suggest this thread be moved to the chat mailing list.) > > It is not clear that copyright law applies here. I doubt that the concept > of a cute demon is copyrightable. In order to be a copyright violation, > it might have to be obvious that the *only* way the vending machine daemon > could have been composed was to intentionally copy a daemon image whose > copyright is held by Kirk McKusick. (This one does look an awful lot like > some versions of the BSD daemon.) > > Trademark law might be more relevant. Even though though the vending > machine belongs to a marketplace not obviously connected to one in which > Kirk McKusick uses his daemons as a trademark, the vending machine machine > image does include a URL and I suppose one could at least argue that the > vending machine usage damages the value McKusick's trademark by > associating it with a product that protects a bunch of ... :-) > > A further complication is that Naughty International Limited is a European > company and the alleged property rights violation occurred in Europe. > > These issues are a bit subtle. If you really care about them, you should > ask a lawyer who works with intellectual property rights law. > > Dan Strick Poppycock, Dan... don't be a stick in the mud. The issues aren't subtle at all. And why should the OP consult an attorney about it? It's not his TM/copyrighted work/IP... I think he did "the right thing" by posting it here; perhaps the owner will learn about it, and can make his own decision about if/how to pursue it. Jay _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 16:34:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E88816A4D8; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:34:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from r1a.corp.servercentral.net (exchange.corp.servercentral.net [66.225.247.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C022843D3F; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:34:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from mail pickup service by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:34:05 -0600 Received: from demandindustries.net ([161.58.224.124]) by r1a.corp.servercentral.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:25:22 -0600 Received: from scanner.servercentral.net (scanner.servercentral.net [66.225.196.47]) by demandindustries.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iAO7PKYt010525 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:25:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A738700C3 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:25:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from scanner.servercentral.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mb [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01241-05 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:25:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by scanner.servercentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE258700BF for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:25:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92D957933; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:25:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D6616A4D3; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:24:59 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AD716A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:24:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C163F43D4C; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:24:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CWrWb-000E2S-2b; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:25:13 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:25:13 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: "Jonathan T. Sage" Message-ID: <20041124072513.GN65445@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis for cervercentral.net X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2004 07:25:23.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2B1F8E0:01C4D1F6] cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:34:15 -0000 On Wed, Nov 24, 2004 at 02:01:30AM -0500, Jonathan T. Sage wrote: > and on that note, did they continue that copyright infringment on the=20 > actual product? Cause my spidey sense is sensing that machine being sold= =20 > out soon. (come on, you're all thinking how much you want a daemon=20 > packaged condom on your workstation. admit it.) I've heard it called many, many things before but I think that's the first time I've heard somebody refer to it as a "workstation". Your partner is either very geeky, or very tolerant... Why do I get the feeling that we're now going to be bombarded with slang terms, pet names (we really, really, really don't want to do pet names by the way - I have no interest in knowing what various committers call their genitals), double and single entendres and this is all going to get very homoerotic and slightly uncomfortable to watch? --=20 Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/=20 "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 17:32:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3338316A4CE for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:32:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C320343D58 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:32:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:31:38 -0600 Message-ID: <41A4C53D.908@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:30:37 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20041023 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <41A431CA.2040506@theatre.msu.edu> <20041124072513.GN65445@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041124072513.GN65445@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Nov 2004 17:31:52.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[7C691C60:01C4D24B] cc: "Jonathan T. Sage" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:32:04 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: >On Wed, Nov 24, 2004 at 02:01:30AM -0500, Jonathan T. Sage wrote: > > > >>and on that note, did they continue that copyright infringment on the >>actual product? Cause my spidey sense is sensing that machine being sold >>out soon. (come on, you're all thinking how much you want a daemon >>packaged condom on your workstation. admit it.) >> >> > >I've heard it called many, many things before but I think that's the >first time I've heard somebody refer to it as a "workstation". Your >partner is either very geeky, or very tolerant... > >Why do I get the feeling that we're now going to be bombarded with slang >terms, pet names (we really, really, really don't want to do pet names >by the way - I have no interest in knowing what various committers call >their genitals), double and single entendres and this is all going to >get very homoerotic and slightly uncomfortable to watch? > > ROFLMBU...as if geeks needed a whole new class of acronyms! Suppose we can get some added to the "Jargon File"?? KDK From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 24 20:33:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0165316A4CE; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:33:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from graf.pompo.net (graf.pompo.net [81.56.186.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A58243D48; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:33:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: by graf.pompo.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F0918762C; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:33:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:33:13 +0100 From: Thierry Thomas To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041124203313.GB25381@graf.pompo.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Face: (hRbQnK~Pt7$ct`!fupO(`y_WL4^-Iwn4@ly-.,[4xC4xc; y=\ipKMNm<1J>lv@PP~7Z<.t KjAnXLs: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.10-STABLE i386 Organization: Kabbale Eros X-PGP: 0xC71405A2 Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:33:46 -0000 Le Mer 24 nov 04 à 7:24:48 +0100, Ted Mittelstaedt écrivait : > That is not true. All that is required is that it closely resembles the > image, I believe the language is something along the lines that if it is > likely > consumers would confuse the images then it's a violation. The BSD demon is very popular: see . This society always uses the demon as their logo, and they have big posters along the roads in France. -- Th. Thomas. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 00:21:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8AC16A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:21:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp101.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp101.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8226943D54 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:21:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.100?) (mjeays2551@24.114.152.139 with plain) by smtp101.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2004 00:21:11 -0000 From: Mike Jeays To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 24 Nov 2004 19:21:10 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:21:14 -0000 We had an excellent presentation today by staff from VMWare. I was very impressed by their ability to move applications from one physical server to another with only a half-second interruption in service. Their latest offering sits directly on the hardware of an i86 processor, and virtualizes it so that several guest operating systems can be run. They claim about a 5% overhead, which seems very reasonable. I can clearly understand its use with Windows, which needs frequent reboots when applying patches and for all sorts of other maintenance, and these changes can be made on virtual servers, including the reboot, without disturbing other virtual machines. I didn't get a very good answer to my question about whether it was worth using if all the client operating systems were FreeBSD or Linux. For these (much better) OSs, reboots are very rarely needed. The OS provides all the facilities required for protecting applications from one another, and sharing resources between applications in a reasonable way. It is easy to kill runaway applications. So would there be much point in running VMWare with several guest copies of FreeBSD? As another question - are there any attempts to develop an open-source equivalent? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 01:05:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D09B16A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:05:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AAEE943D46 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:05:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brian@planetshwoop.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.11?) (aenid@sbcglobal.net@68.77.25.94 with plain) by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2004 01:05:53 -0000 Message-ID: <41A52FEE.7040300@planetshwoop.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:05:50 -0600 From: Brian Sobolak User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Jeays , chat@freebsd.org References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:05:54 -0000 Mike Jeays wrote: > way. It is easy to kill runaway applications. So would there be much > point in running VMWare with several guest copies of FreeBSD? One advantage is the ability to reduce an entire OS down to a single file. This is extremely useful when regression testing, or if you're just hosing around. If some completely mess up a configuration; no problem, just recopy the file. brian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 01:17:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F0516A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:17:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rocksteady.bowdoin.edu (rocksteady.bowdoin.edu [139.140.34.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145E043D45 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:17:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alec@thened.net) Received: by rocksteady.bowdoin.edu (Postfix, from userid 12008) id 1BCA5A307; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:17:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:17:11 -0500 From: Alec Berryman To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> X-Ned-Wuz-Here: Yes X-GPG-Fingerprint: 3DB5 8785 53D9 8BF4 5049 B6B9 02E7 7FD9 881C 85C4 X-GPG-Key: http://www.thened.net/~alec/static/alec.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:17:13 -0000 --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable begin quotation of Mike Jeays on 2004-11-24 19:21:10 -0500: > I can clearly understand its use with Windows, which needs frequent > reboots when applying patches and for all sorts of other maintenance, > and these changes can be made on virtual servers, including the reboot, > without disturbing other virtual machines. ESX server (which is what I assume you're talking about) also has the nifty ability to selectively commit changes to the hard disk image - for instance, if you saved the disk state, attempted to upgrade from one FreeBSD release to the next, and it failed, you could roll back to the previous state effortlessly. > I didn't get a very good answer to my question about whether it was > worth using if all the client operating systems were FreeBSD or Linux.=20 > For these (much better) OSs, reboots are very rarely needed. The OS > provides all the facilities required for protecting applications from > one another, and sharing resources between applications in a reasonable > way. It is easy to kill runaway applications. So would there be much > point in running VMWare with several guest copies of FreeBSD? Good luck getting it to run FreeBSD in the first place. If you search Google, you'll find one informative thread on the community forums that will help you getting 4.x to run, but I've yet to manage to convince the 5.x installer that I do indeed have a hard disk. FreeBSD is also not officially supported, as far as I can tell. They claim that 4.5 is a 'qualified guest operating system', but there's no option to create a FreeBSD virtual machine - you must create another operating system and manually edit the .vmx configuration file to tell it that it's FreeBSD. Linux is much better supported. There are plenty of reasons you may want to run a Unix-like operating system under VMWare, but if you weren't convinced by a VMWare presentation they most likely don't apply to you. > As another question - are there any attempts to develop an open-source > equivalent? Usermode Linux achieves most of what ESX does. I don't know of anything for a BSD. --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (OpenBSD) iD8DBQFBpTKXAud/2YgchcQRAvN2AKDyGm9dfQePQRxq2bxumruA5iHz7QCgwnw9 gRx0MxLs7bjTxTnTf1STOoo= =rESO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 01:26:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3ED16A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:26:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4653D43D41 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:26:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nomadlogic@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a36so138677rnf for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:26:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=UUlcfkU38fMN03qpi65MexmMXCqxknrSFA3O3DFhyxixjfn/m0R1CA7YuGkRfOm9tD38LLMpnJipNAP7DPP4TM3Qfzgf+6dpEjTp+NOzS8W7RjXx3PvC4vGS4yGFOXjqNgdo2oB4iU9Okaf91BZiDsVQyU/jRXhKaUzm0NedGFY= Received: by 10.38.15.61 with SMTP id 61mr599644rno; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.14.26 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:26:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <57d710000411241726b3534ee@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:26:37 -0800 From: pete wright To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: pete wright List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:26:40 -0000 > Good luck getting it to run FreeBSD in the first place. If you search > Google, you'll find one informative thread on the community forums > that will help you getting 4.x to run, but I've yet to manage to > convince the 5.x installer that I do indeed have a hard disk. > > FreeBSD is also not officially supported, as far as I can tell. They > claim that 4.5 is a 'qualified guest operating system', but there's no > option to create a FreeBSD virtual machine - you must create another > operating system and manually edit the .vmx configuration file to > tell it that it's FreeBSD. > i've had no problems running multiple copies of FreeBSD (4.x and 5.x) as well as openBSD as a vmware guest. as far as using FreeBSD as the host OS, I have not tried it but it does not look like it would work easily (or atleast w/o using /compat/linux). In fact I will generally run a upcoming release as a VMware guest before roling it out to my machines to test basic functionality, scripts etc... > Usermode Linux achieves most of what ESX does. I don't know of > anything for a BSD. > > > I assume you can get some of the functionality from jail (8, 2). -pete -- ~~o0OO0o~~ Pete Wright www.nycbug.org NYC's *BSD User Group From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 02:00:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D755A16A4CF for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:00:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rocksteady.bowdoin.edu (rocksteady.bowdoin.edu [139.140.34.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A8643D49 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:00:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alec@thened.net) Received: by rocksteady.bowdoin.edu (Postfix, from userid 12008) id CEFE0A307; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:00:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:00:27 -0500 From: Alec Berryman To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041125020027.GB1907@thened.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> <57d710000411241726b3534ee@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57d710000411241726b3534ee@mail.gmail.com> X-Ned-Wuz-Here: Yes X-GPG-Fingerprint: 3DB5 8785 53D9 8BF4 5049 B6B9 02E7 7FD9 881C 85C4 X-GPG-Key: http://www.thened.net/~alec/static/alec.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:00:29 -0000 --61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline begin quotation of pete wright on 2004-11-24 17:26:37 -0800: > i've had no problems running multiple copies of FreeBSD (4.x and > 5.x) as well as openBSD as a vmware guest. Are you talking about VMWare Workstation or the GSX/ESX server? --61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (OpenBSD) iD8DBQFBpTy7Aud/2YgchcQRAoJZAKDDfpSTBsEBEIU9XOpihUVD+UEgSgCgjSii trA3rPGW2747xLmVhP15GIk= =ckof -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 02:19:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061E716A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B9FE43D39 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:19:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.100?) (mjeays2551@24.114.152.139 with plain) by smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2004 02:19:43 -0000 From: Mike Jeays To: Alec Berryman In-Reply-To: <20041125020027.GB1907@thened.net> References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> <57d710000411241726b3534ee@mail.gmail.com> <20041125020027.GB1907@thened.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1101349182.1100.46.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 24 Nov 2004 21:19:42 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:19:45 -0000 On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 21:00, Alec Berryman wrote: > begin quotation of pete wright on 2004-11-24 17:26:37 -0800: > > > i've had no problems running multiple copies of FreeBSD (4.x and > > 5.x) as well as openBSD as a vmware guest. > > Are you talking about VMWare Workstation or the GSX/ESX server? > The part of the presentation that seemed most interesting to me was the ESX server. This seems a lot like the early IBM VM operating system, which completely virtualises the hardware. I thought this was really clever when I first heard of it many years ago. I have often wondered what the requirements on the instruction set for a CPU are to make this possible. My organization is a 98% Microsoft shop, and I have gotten myself a reputation as the "open source nut". VMWare should make a great tool for consolidating our all-too-numerous Windows servers. Thanks for the useful comments, to everyone who replied. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 03:47:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883FC16A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 03:47:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from VARK.MIT.EDU (VARK.MIT.EDU [18.95.3.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088F443D31 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 03:47:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from VARK.MIT.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by VARK.MIT.EDU (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iAP3lS7M002043; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:47:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by VARK.MIT.EDU (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iAP3lRUh002038; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:47:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:47:27 -0500 From: David Schultz To: Mike Jeays Message-ID: <20041125034727.GA46124@VARK.MIT.EDU> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Jeays , Alec Berryman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> <57d710000411241726b3534ee@mail.gmail.com> <20041125020027.GB1907@thened.net> <1101349182.1100.46.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1101349182.1100.46.camel@chaucer> cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Alec Berryman Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 03:47:21 -0000 On Wed, Nov 24, 2004, Mike Jeays wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 21:00, Alec Berryman wrote: > > begin quotation of pete wright on 2004-11-24 17:26:37 -0800: > > > > > i've had no problems running multiple copies of FreeBSD (4.x and > > > 5.x) as well as openBSD as a vmware guest. > > > > Are you talking about VMWare Workstation or the GSX/ESX server? > > > > The part of the presentation that seemed most interesting to me was the > ESX server. This seems a lot like the early IBM VM operating system, > which completely virtualises the hardware. I thought this was really > clever when I first heard of it many years ago. I have often wondered > what the requirements on the instruction set for a CPU are to make this > possible. Actually, x86 isn't fully virtualizable. My understanding is that VMWare uses some pretty bizarre code rewriting tricks to make the emulation work completely correctly. A friend of mine who knows x86 way better than I do claims the necessary hacks are not too complicated, but Ed Wang says they're trade secrets of VMWare and won't talk about them, so who knows? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 04:50:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD80516A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:50:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E41643D60 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:50:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000296447.msg for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:27:03 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:50:39 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:27:03 -0800 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:27:07 -0800 Subject: RE: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:50:48 -0000 > I didn't get a very good answer to my question about whether it was > worth using if all the client operating systems were FreeBSD or Linux. It depends what you're doing. > For these (much better) OSs, reboots are very rarely needed. The OS > provides all the facilities required for protecting applications from > one another, and sharing resources between applications in a reasonable > way. This is not really true. You cannot easily create the illusion of multiple machines with their own rules, users, and networking setup. The resource sharing always runs into problems. If you share by processes, for example, whoever makes more processes gets more CPU. > It is easy to kill runaway applications. So would there be much > point in running VMWare with several guest copies of FreeBSD? Maybe not, again, it depends what you're doing. What happens when the next person you want to let use the machine really needs Linux for some reason? What happens when person needs to be able to customize the kernel? Or needs a special network filtering module? Vmware lets you do a lot of things that are difficult to impossible to do any other way. If you don't need any of these things, you don't need Vmware. It's certainly great for a desktop when you need to support a large number of different operating systems. It's great for kernel development, where a crash can be debugged from one vm to another without hosing your editor session working on the code. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 07:05:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658C516A4CE; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:05:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E224F43D49; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:05:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iAP75Lv19387; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:05:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Thierry Thomas" , , Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:05:21 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041124203313.GB25381@graf.pompo.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Subject: RE: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:05:22 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Thierry Thomas > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 12:33 PM > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Copyright Issues > > > Le Mer 24 nov 04 à 7:24:48 +0100, Ted Mittelstaedt > > écrivait : > > That is not true. All that is required is that it closely resembles the > > image, I believe the language is something along the lines that if it is > > likely > > consumers would confuse the images then it's a violation. > > The BSD demon is very popular: see . > This society always uses the demon as their logo, and they have big > posters along the roads in France. > -- And if you think that closely resembles Beastie you need glasses! ;-) Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 14:02:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437B716A4CE for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:02:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFD743D4C for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:02:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 486805310; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:02:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id D06585312 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:02:15 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id AF1F6B85E; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:02:15 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:02:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> (Alec Berryman's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:17:11 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.64 Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:02:24 -0000 Alec Berryman writes: > Usermode Linux achieves most of what ESX does. I don't know of > anything for a BSD. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/ DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 25 19:31:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B3816A4CE; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:31:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D26E43D58; Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:31:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:28:33 -0600 Message-ID: <41A63329.9040205@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:31:53 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20041023 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Nov 2004 19:28:33.0559 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3C9D270:01C4D324] cc: Thierry Thomas cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:31:42 -0000 Thierry Thomas wrote: >> >>Le Mer 24 nov 04 à 7:24:48 +0100, Ted Mittelstaedt >> >> écrivait : >> >> >>>That is not true. All that is required is that it closely resembles the >>>image, I believe the language is something along the lines that if it is >>>likely >>>consumers would confuse the images then it's a violation. >>> >>> >>The BSD demon is very popular: see . >>This society always uses the demon as their logo, and they have big >>posters along the roads in France. >>-- >> >> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >And if you think that closely resembles Beastie you need glasses! ;-) > >Ted > > Hmm, perhaps looks a tad like the one in /boot/beastie.4th, but not much like McCusick's, if you ask me :-D Maybe the color .... Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 26 01:55:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD78A16A4CE; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:55:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moghedien.mukappabeta.net (moghedien.mukappabeta.net [194.145.150.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B18E43D5A; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:55:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@mukappabeta.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (pD9E69053.dip.t-dialin.net [217.230.144.83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by moghedien.mukappabeta.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FE52D41; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:50:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <41A68D12.7060504@mukappabeta.de> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:55:30 +0100 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thierry Thomas References: <200411231657.iANGv8Ps000709@mist.nodomain> <20041124203313.GB25381@graf.pompo.net> In-Reply-To: <20041124203313.GB25381@graf.pompo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright Issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:55:22 -0000 Thierry Thomas wrote: > The BSD demon is very popular: see . > This society always uses the demon as their logo, and they have big > posters along the roads in France. I've seen one of the standard BSD daemon images on at least one german online sexshop, used as a logo for that shop (I won't tell which one, 'cause I'm not a copyright prosecutor.) So it seems to be quite popular indeed (maybe people also like it because it's cute.) -- Matthias Buelow; mkb@{mukappabeta,informatik.uni-wuerzburg}.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 27 02:11:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD5016A4CE for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 02:11:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DA143D31 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 02:11:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nomadlogic@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a36so284151rnf for ; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=SQtj/Mn4H5PEovNdbzmlqDzgKAUky2YSsf2chXu195iEYB3keE8qy2Kh8kByLFrmVItin+tfYsKy2iAMVXoM3jhYrBShE6wbJGet5Hf/meCGiVjKfApAiXkv2hkP/wkVbzvqD/le4fPmlP45DxUNlahys8PQepZRwh//G6kmu9w= Received: by 10.39.2.57 with SMTP id e57mr545676rni; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.14.26 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <57d71000041126181148ef7ca2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:11:54 -0800 From: pete wright To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041125020027.GB1907@thened.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1101342070.1100.39.camel@chaucer> <20041125011711.GA1907@thened.net> <57d710000411241726b3534ee@mail.gmail.com> <20041125020027.GB1907@thened.net> Subject: Re: VMWare X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: pete wright List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 02:11:55 -0000 On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:00:27 -0500, Alec Berryman wrote: > begin quotation of pete wright on 2004-11-24 17:26:37 -0800: > > > i've had no problems running multiple copies of FreeBSD (4.x and > > 5.x) as well as openBSD as a vmware guest. > > Are you talking about VMWare Workstation or the GSX/ESX server? > > workstation, sorry didn't realize that you were refering to GSX/ESX. -p -- ~~o0OO0o~~ Pete Wright www.nycbug.org NYC's *BSD User Group