From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 25 14:23:49 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7397A16A41C for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:23:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588A143D49 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:23:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 2BA8A1800125 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:23:49 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.49) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 25 Jun 2005 14:23:49 -0000 Received: by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1E3F04BEAD; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:23:49 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [213.187.181.70] by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for fteg@london.com; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:23:49 -0500 From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" To: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:23:49 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 213.187.181.70 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050625142349.1E3F04BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:32:59 +0000 Cc: Subject: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:23:49 -0000 Hello! We've all tried advocating FreeBSD by showing our friends the infamous http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html comparison. But despite its excellent, it has lost its integrity because its age. Many things have changed since then, and on behalf of all those who enjoy advocating FreeBSD: It's time we bring the truth out. What do you all say? Instead of bugging Mr Murray Stokely about updating it, why don't we just update it in this thread? If everybody could contribute their bit of truth, I am willing to compile it into a nicely written (and designed*) sequence of TXT, HTML and PDF and post it back here. It is very important to get this situation straight. So we all know where we stand.=20 I have put an easier version of the comparison up at: http://www.home.no/hedhnta/versus.txt So please post corrections referring to each paragraph. It would also be nice to include Mac OS X in this comparison. * In line with: http://identity.berkeley.edu/downloads/ucb_design_style.pdf Thank you all! Now let's get down to work! -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 26 12:09:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9C116A41C for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:09:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc@blackend.org) Received: from abigail.blackend.org (blackend.org [212.11.35.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125FC43D1F for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:09:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc@blackend.org) Received: from gothic.blackend.org (gothic.blackend.org [192.168.1.203]) by abigail.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5QC9EA8027114; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:09:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@abigail.blackend.org) Received: from gothic.blackend.org (localhost.blackend.org [127.0.0.1]) by gothic.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5QC9DcI001853; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:09:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@gothic.blackend.org) Received: (from marc@localhost) by gothic.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j5QC9DOF001852; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:09:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:09:13 +0200 From: Marc Fonvieille To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz Message-ID: <20050626120913.GB587@gothic.blackend.org> References: <20050625142349.1E3F04BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050625142349.1E3F04BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Useless-Header: blackend.org X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:09:19 -0000 --yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:23:49AM -0500, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: >=20 > Hello! >=20 > We've all tried advocating FreeBSD by showing our friends the > infamous http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html comparison. > But despite its excellent, it has lost its integrity because its age. > Many things have changed since then, and on behalf of all those who > enjoy advocating FreeBSD: It's time we bring the truth out. >=20 > What do you all say? Instead of bugging Mr Murray Stokely about > updating it, why don't we just update it in this thread? If everybody > could contribute their bit of truth, I am willing to compile it into a > nicely written (and designed*) sequence of TXT, HTML and PDF and post > it back here. It is very important to get this situation straight. > So we all know where we stand.=20 > [...] http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Please start from the related sgml file, i.e. diff via PRs would be appreciated. Once the "final" version will be complete, we will look to a LaTeX conversion (prefered way) and/or to some open DTP format. Marc PS: Please do not crosspost to questions@ --yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCvprozQ9RwE+OdOgRAn1FAKCWIQGpmTYXEkxh9m0EhkQfhDxVUwCdGjZk rkDMF+oJi3hNrL5Fru5JSS0= =jFid -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yNb1oOkm5a9FJOVX-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 26 12:16:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4C916A41C for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:16:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84ED243D55 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:16:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 2BD3C18001BC for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:16:43 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.49) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 26 Jun 2005 12:16:43 -0000 Received: by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 20C864BEAD; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:16:43 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [213.187.181.70] by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for fteg@london.com; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:16:43 -0500 From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" To: "Marc Fonvieille" Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:16:43 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 213.187.181.70 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050626121643.20C864BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:18:11 +0000 Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:16:43 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Fonvieille" To: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:09:13 +0200 >=20 > On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:23:49AM -0500, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > > > > Hello! > > > > We've all tried advocating FreeBSD by showing our friends the > > infamous http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html comparison. > > But despite its excellent, it has lost its integrity because its age. > > Many things have changed since then, and on behalf of all those who > > enjoy advocating FreeBSD: It's time we bring the truth out. > > > > What do you all say? Instead of bugging Mr Murray Stokely about > > updating it, why don't we just update it in this thread? If everybody > > could contribute their bit of truth, I am willing to compile it into a > > nicely written (and designed*) sequence of TXT, HTML and PDF and post > > it back here. It is very important to get this situation straight. > > So we all know where we stand. > [...] >=20 > http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html >=20 > Please start from the related sgml file, i.e. diff via PRs would be > appreciated. Once the "final" version will be complete, we will look to > a LaTeX conversion (prefered way) and/or to some open DTP format. >=20 > Marc >=20 > PS: Please do not crosspost to questions@ I had no idea that existed. Thanks. I can handle a LaTeX conversion, or whatever you need. My job is just to make it look good, and maybe set a new standard in FreeBSD promotional material. Remember we should be addressing newcomers with this, not developers who got no taste for design. -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 26 12:28:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0849E16A41C for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc@blackend.org) Received: from abigail.blackend.org (blackend.org [212.11.35.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D1743D49 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc@blackend.org) Received: from gothic.blackend.org (gothic.blackend.org [192.168.1.203]) by abigail.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5QCS0mk027342; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:28:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@abigail.blackend.org) Received: from gothic.blackend.org (localhost.blackend.org [127.0.0.1]) by gothic.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5QCS0eZ001904; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:28:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@gothic.blackend.org) Received: (from marc@localhost) by gothic.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j5QCS0lH001903; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:28:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:28:00 +0200 From: Marc Fonvieille To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz Message-ID: <20050626122800.GC587@gothic.blackend.org> References: <20050626121643.20C864BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050626121643.20C864BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Useless-Header: blackend.org X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:03 -0000 --KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 07:16:43AM -0500, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: >=20 > I had no idea that existed. Thanks. > I can handle a LaTeX conversion, or whatever you need. >=20 > My job is just to make it look good, > and maybe set a new standard in FreeBSD promotional material. > There are some things already available: A one sheet flyer: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/flyer/ and translated in various language: German, French, Russian, Spanish, etc. Slides for advocacy presentations: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/slides/ > Remember we should be addressing newcomers with this, > not developers who got no taste for design. >=20 I thought you wanted to update the content... and if it's for "newcomers" marketing/os-comparison.html will be too much technical for them. Marc --KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCvp9PzQ9RwE+OdOgRAhpNAKCUV3v69KNU2AfU/TuYLn4+Wc1IXwCdFPXF 2SZZv3g42TikvZb+JXO3OVo= =m7CV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KN5l+BnMqAQyZLvT-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 26 22:22:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103A116A41C for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:22:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from philipp1@zeus.itg.uiuc.edu) Received: from zeus.itg.uiuc.edu (zeus.itg.uiuc.edu [130.126.126.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E8143D1F for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:22:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from philipp1@zeus.itg.uiuc.edu) Received: from zeus.itg.uiuc.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.itg.uiuc.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5QMMi66028552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:22:44 -0500 Received: (from philipp1@localhost) by zeus.itg.uiuc.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j5QMMefd028550 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:22:40 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:22:40 -0500 From: Anthony Philipp To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050626222239.GB30179@zeus.itg.uiuc.edu> References: <20050626120005.9BF4916A423@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050626120005.9BF4916A423@hub.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux vs. Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:22:45 -0000 > I have put an easier version of the comparison up at: > > http://www.home.no/hedhnta/versus.txt > > So please post corrections referring to each paragraph. > It would also be nice to include Mac OS X in this comparison. 1.3 All Windows users are familiar with the "Blue Screen of Death". Poor reliability is one of the major drawbacks of Windows. Some of the major issues have been fixed in Windows 2000, but "code bloat" has introduced many more reliability problems. Windows 2000 uses a lot of system resources and it is very difficult to keep the system up for more than a couple of months without it reverting to a crawl as memory gets corrupted and filesystems fragmented. This is from the website mentioned above. If you're going to compare FreeBSD to Linux to Windows XP at least make sure you're comparing Windows XP and not Windows 2000. Also I don't think we should copy MS and refer to "Linux" and mean a specific distrobution. I suggest you pick a specific distrobution and compare that to the other OSes. My personal suggestion would be Debian, since this seems to be the OS which would give FreeBSD the best run for it's money. I also think it would be a good idea to include OSX in the comparison, however you might want to compile to different lists. One would be for people comparing the OSes from a server perspective, and one would be from a desktop perspective. 4.2 The Linux ext2 filesystem gets its performance from having an asynchronous mount. You can mount FreeBSD UFS filesystems as asynchronous but this is very dangerous and no seasoned Unix admin would do this. It's amazing that Linux is designed this way by default. Often a hard carsh permanently damages a mount. FreeBSD or Solaris can sustain a very hard crash with only minor data loss, and the filesystem will be remountable with few problems. I don't think it is really fair for us to compare ext2 and UFS2 and FAT. Perhaps we should be comparing NTFS vs reiserfs or JFS vs UFS2. I know we don't have to stage the comparison to make FreeBSD stand out. It can stand on its own performance. 9.2 Linux is a Unix-like kernel that must be combined with the GNU system to make a complete operating system. Linux does not use any version control system so all bug-fixes and enhancements must be emailed back and forth on mailing lists and ultimately submitted to the one person (Linus) who has authority to commit the code to the tree. Due to the overwhelming amount of code that gets written, it is impossible for one person to adequately quality control all of the pending changes. For this reason there is a lot of code in Linux that was hastily written and would never have been accepted into a more conservative operating system. I don't think this is true any longer. 9.3 Microsoft Windows is a closed-source operating system driven by market demand rather than technical merit. New technologies are rushed into the product before they have been properly designed or fully implemented. Very little is known about the internal development infrastructure of Microsoft but the "blue-screen of death" speaks for itself. When was the last time you had a blue screen of death? For me it was over a year ago when I was having a hardware issue. Just based off of my anecdotal evidence FreeBSD has crashed less than either my Gentoo system or my windows system, but I don't think it is fair to say that Windows blue screens on a fairly regular basis. Also I think you should add an ease of use section. This is why most people use Windows or OSX over some *nix system. That and it is what other people they know are using. This means they can get help from their friends. This is not something which should be discounted. > Thank you all! > Now let's get down to work! > I think it is a good idea, just needs a few revisions, keep up the good work! Anthony Philipp From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 27 17:08:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047C116A41C for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:08:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF30243D48 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:08:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:4921 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Dmx5u-0001Y1-3y for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:08:26 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:08:26 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:08:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: RE: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:08:37 -0000 From: Marc Fonvieille [mailto:blackend@freebsd.org] > > I thought you wanted to update the content... > and if it's for "newcomers" marketing/os-comparison.html > will be too much technical for them. Newcomers != technically illiterate If it's a straight comparison, then it needs to have technical information. Imagine taking a Honda Civic brochure and a Toyota Corolla brochure, removing all technical facts such as horsepower and mileage, and then comparing them only on the marketing verbiage. You cannot do it and have it makes sense. Marketing to newcomers doesn't mean hiding away the technical details. That's what the EZLinux distros do, and we're better than that. Don't hide the gnarly greasy details. If they scare away a few newbies, they wouldn't have been happy here anyway. But those that they don't scare away should be welcomed. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 27 18:30:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA9E16A41C for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:30:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu) Received: from vhost.ethernext.com (vhost.ethernext.com [66.28.75.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1701F43D55 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:30:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu) Received: (qmail 64085 invoked by uid 2526); 27 Jun 2005 18:55:51 -0000 Received: from 12.8.180.42 ( [12.8.180.42]) as user pablo.delgado@localhost by webmail.lsi.mine.nu with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:55:50 -0400 Message-ID: <1119898550.42c04bb6e5906@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:55:50 -0400 From: pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu To: advocacy@freebsd.org References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 12.8.180.42 Cc: Subject: RE: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:30:40 -0000 I totally agree. We should not remove all the technical data. But there should be more literature to attract different types of individuals. Some users are driven by looks, usability, simplicity/complexity, etc. Thats why brochures for Honda / Toyota (just to follow the same analogy) come in different size and shapes. Shome brochures display what the car could look like, other display technical data, and other simple pose a life style that lures in people. > From: Marc Fonvieille [mailto:blackend@freebsd.org] > > > > I thought you wanted to update the content... > > and if it's for "newcomers" marketing/os-comparison.html > > will be too much technical for them. > > Newcomers != technically illiterate > > If it's a straight comparison, then it needs to have technical information. > Imagine taking a Honda Civic brochure and a Toyota Corolla brochure, > removing all technical facts such as horsepower and mileage, and then > comparing them only on the marketing verbiage. You cannot do it and have it > makes sense. > > Marketing to newcomers doesn't mean hiding away the technical details. > That's what the EZLinux distros do, and we're better than that. Don't hide > the gnarly greasy details. If they scare away a few newbies, they wouldn't > have been happy here anyway. But those that they don't scare away should be > welcomed. > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 28 14:42:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B5116A41C for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:42:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc@blackend.org) Received: from abigail.blackend.org (blackend.org [212.11.35.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F6343D48 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:42:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc@blackend.org) Received: from gothic.blackend.org (gothic.blackend.org [192.168.1.203]) by abigail.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5SEgOTB013932; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:42:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@abigail.blackend.org) Received: from gothic.blackend.org (localhost.blackend.org [127.0.0.1]) by gothic.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5SEgNnT001060; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:42:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@gothic.blackend.org) Received: (from marc@localhost) by gothic.blackend.org (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j5SEgNEs001059; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:42:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:42:23 +0200 From: Marc Fonvieille To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20050628144223.GC586@gothic.blackend.org> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2/5bycvrmDh4d1IB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Useless-Header: blackend.org X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:42:27 -0000 --2/5bycvrmDh4d1IB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 10:08:26AM -0700, Johnson David wrote: > From: Marc Fonvieille [mailto:blackend@freebsd.org] > > > > I thought you wanted to update the content... > > and if it's for "newcomers" marketing/os-comparison.html > > will be too much technical for them. >=20 > Newcomers !=3D technically illiterate > It's your definition of "newcomer", it's now obvious there are many sort of "newcomer". Just have a look at freebsd-questions@ for example. > If it's a straight comparison, then it needs to have technical informatio= n. > Imagine taking a Honda Civic brochure and a Toyota Corolla brochure, > removing all technical facts such as horsepower and mileage, and then > comparing them only on the marketing verbiage. You cannot do it and have = it > makes sense. >=20 Hmm, well do you really think the "girl next door" cares about the torque of her car? The only thing most of people look at are the car look, the price, how many oil it "eats", the size... These things are not technical, but "understandable by everyone", the same things are developed in ads. Most of people do not understand what is the horsepower, they will just note that one number is bigger than another etc., but since most of time the "size" (or type) of the car (it's the case in Europe, I dunno in US) is proportional to the horsepower... > Marketing to newcomers doesn't mean hiding away the technical details. > That's what the EZLinux distros do, and we're better than that. Don't hide > the gnarly greasy details. If they scare away a few newbies, they wouldn't > have been happy here anyway. But those that they don't scare away should = be > welcomed. >=20 So according to you, "newbies" and people totally "OS ignorant" do not have to use FreeBSD :) To sum up, there must exist many advocacy papers: 1st: a general paper (single sheet should be perfect, "too much information kill the information") aimed at general audience 2nd: a more technical paper for people with more background looking for more details. Perhaps the OS comparaison can be (a part of) the 2nd paper. One must decide what is the audience of a paper before writting it. In all cases, the most important thing of a paper is not to be a "flood of informations" but something that gives the reader (both OS expert and ignorant persons) the will to install and give a try to FreeBSD. Back to the http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html document, I'm waiting for updates via PRs and I will take care of the integration of changes (of course if there are correct, etc.). Marc --2/5bycvrmDh4d1IB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCwWHOzQ9RwE+OdOgRAvd5AKCgMHtn7P/WKDZtq8KyiCVYx5YqEQCgytOy yi3dqZS8QXU+Jinj7lM5n1U= =juJs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2/5bycvrmDh4d1IB-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 28 15:46:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EFD16A41C for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:46:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu) Received: from vhost.ethernext.com (vhost.ethernext.com [66.28.75.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC36F43D58 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:46:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu) Received: (qmail 63207 invoked by uid 2526); 28 Jun 2005 16:12:11 -0000 Received: from 12.8.180.42 ( [12.8.180.42]) as user pablo.delgado@localhost by webmail.lsi.mine.nu with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:12:11 -0400 Message-ID: <1119975131.42c176dba0189@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:12:11 -0400 From: pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu To: advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 12.8.180.42 Cc: Subject: FREEBSD MARKETING MATERIALS FOR CDW ADVISORY BOARD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:46:56 -0000 Hey everyone, I know there are losts of talks back and forth about updating the FreeBSD marketing material but if there is anything that I can use right now I would really like it if someone pointed me in that direction. The reason: I am currently a member of the CDW advisory board. Within this board we discuss topics that influence CDW's decisions. Also, CDW has created a community for Network Engineers to learn from one another. Currently this board consist of serveral hundred advosors from various companies with 60,000+ employees. Well just recently someone posted a paper on how to create a low cost web server solution using Linux. And he rambled on about how the GNU License is free, blah, blah, ... Linux is so powerful, blah, blah. Now I know Linux is viable solution, but I know that FreeBSD can do what Linux does better, faster and truly FREE !!! So I want to post and article that Highlights FreeBSD as a better solution for low cost high availability networks. I believe this is an opportunity to influence the big boys. Any Thoughts? -Pablo ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 28 15:56:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F6B16A41C for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:56:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@essenz.com) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [146.145.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9D443D49 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:56:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@essenz.com) Received: from beck.quonix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beck.quonix.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j5SFuet2018061 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (essenz@localhost) by beck.quonix.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) with ESMTP id j5SFueD4018058 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: beck.quonix.net: essenz owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:56:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John Von Essen X-X-Sender: essenz@beck.quonix.net To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1119975131.42c176dba0189@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20050628115240.I17755@beck.quonix.net> References: <1119975131.42c176dba0189@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-SpamAssassin-3.0.3-Score: -2.82/5.8 ALL_TRUSTED X-MimeDefang-2.51: beck.quonix.net X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 146.145.66.90 Cc: Subject: Re: FREEBSD MARKETING MATERIALS FOR CDW ADVISORY BOARD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:56:47 -0000 Just do it! Funny, not only will it be easy to put a doc together on how to deploy an out-of-the-box FreeBSD web server, the doc itself will be fairly short! You can easily cover a full FreeBSD install from CD, then Apache 2.X build from ports with SSL support, all in a single page doc. -John On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu wrote: > Any Thoughts? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 29 03:26:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E494916A41C; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:26:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kadmin@elisha.daleco.biz) Received: from elisha.daleco.biz (fbc-carthage.org [66.76.92.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E625743D48; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:26:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kadmin@elisha.daleco.biz) Received: from elisha.daleco.biz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elisha.daleco.biz (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5T3QUm5071785; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:26:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kadmin@elisha.daleco.biz) Received: (from kadmin@localhost) by elisha.daleco.biz (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j5T3QUFT071784; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:26:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kadmin) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:26:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200506290326.j5T3QUFT071784@elisha.daleco.biz> To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@freebsd.org From: Kevin Kinsey X-send-pr-version: 3.113 X-GNATS-Notify: Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: (PATCH) www/marketing/os-comparison.sgml, updates CERT advisories X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Kevin Kinsey List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:26:34 -0000 >Submitter-Id: current-users >Originator: Kevin Kinsey >Organization: DaleCo, S.P. >Confidential: no >Synopsis: (PATCH) www/marketing/os-comparison.sgml, updates CERT advisories >Severity: non-critical >Priority: medium >Category: www >Class: update >Release: FreeBSD 5.3-STABLE i386 >Environment: System: FreeBSD elisha.daleco.biz 4.11-RELEASE-p2 FreeBSD 4.11-RELEASE-p2 #4: Wed Apr 6 15:26:00 CDT 2005 root@elisha.daleco.biz:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 >Description: This patch updates the "OS Comparison" article with the dates, case numbers, and names of (US) CERT advisories from January 2004 to June 2005. >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: This article is currently being discussed on advocacy@; I decided to "put up" instead of being asked to "shut up" (Hi, Julian! Keep up the good work! ;-) My www tree is a few weeks old, but the website appears to still have the same information as my "os-comparison.sgml". I updated the referenced URI due to the fact that "cert.org" is no longer being actively updated with advisories; these seem to have moved to: http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/techalerts/ --- I can't speculate on what "International" users might wish to have listed there; this seems (to me) appropriate for most of North America. Note that I haven't made any commentary about the list, *nor have I enumerated the number of advisories that affect any particular OS*. Particularly in regard to Microsoft's offerings, the list might very well speak for itself. Feel free to modify it as you wish, though. Instead of two "headers", there's only one; this is because of the nature of the content only, and not for any other reason. We appreciate Murray writing this in the first place, and "hope this helps". --- os-comparison.sgml Mon May 9 11:06:12 2005 +++ os-comparison2.sgml Tue Jun 28 21:39:06 2005 @@ -470,37 +470,49 @@ information and training to help improve security at Internet sites.

-

CERT Advisories in 2000 that affected Linux:

+

CERT Advisories for 2004-early 2005, all operating systems:

    -
  • CA-2000-22 - Input Validation Problems in LPRng
    • -
  • CA-2000-21 - Denial-of-Service Vulnerability in TCP/IP - Stacks
    • -
  • CA-2000-20 - Multiple Denial-of-Service Problems in ISC BIND
    • -
  • CA-2000-17 - Input Validation Problem in rpc.statd
    • -
  • CA-2000-13 - Two Input Validation Problems in FTPD
    • -
  • CA-2000-06 - Multiple Buffer Overflows in Kerberos Authenticated - Services
    • -
  • CA-2000-03 - Continuing Compromises of DNS servers
    • -
- -

CERT Advisories in 2000 that affected Windows:

-
    -
  • CA-2000-16 - Microsoft 'IE Script'/Access/OBJECT Tag - Vulnerability
    • -
  • CA-2000-14 - Microsoft Outlook and Outlook Express Cache Bypass - Vulnerability
    • -
  • CA-2000-12 - HHCtrl ActiveX Control Allows Local Files to be - Executed
    • -
  • CA-2000-10 - Inconsistent Warning Messages in Internet - Explorer
    • -
  • CA-2000-07 - Microsoft Office 2000 UA ActiveX Control - Incorrectly Marked "Safe for Scripting"
    • -
  • CA-2000-04 - Love Letter Worm
    • +
  • 2005-06-14 TA05-165A Microsoft Windows and Internet Explorer Vulnerabilities
    • +
  • 2005-05-16 TA05-136A Apple Mac OS X is affected by multiple vulnerabilities
    • +
  • 2005-04-27 TA05-117A Oracle Products Contain Multiple Vulnerabilities
    • +
  • 2005-04-12 TA05-102A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows Components
    • +
  • 2005-02-08 TA05-039A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows Components
    • +
  • 2005-01-26 TA05-026A Multiple Denial of Service Vulnerablities in Cisco IOS
    • +
  • 2005-01-12 TA05-012B Microsoft Windows HTML Help ActiveX Control Cross-Domain Vulnerability
    • +
  • 2005-01-12 TA05-012A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows Icon and Cursor Processing
    • +
  • 2004-12-21 TA04-356A Exploitation of phpBB highlight parameter vulnerability
    • +
  • 2004-12-01 TA04-336A Update Available for Microsoft Internet Explorer HTML Elements Vulnerability
    • +
  • 2004-11-11 TA04-316A Cisco IOS Input Queue Vulnerability
    • +
  • 2004-11-10 TA04-315A Buffer Overflow in Microsoft Internet Explorer
    • +
  • 2004-10-19 TA04-293A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Internet Explorer
    • +
  • 2004-09-17 TA04-261A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Mozilla Products
    • +
  • 2004-09-16 TA04-260A Microsoft Windows JPEG component buffer overflow
    • +
  • 2004-09-03 TA04-247A Vulnerabilities in MIT Kerberos 5
    • +
  • 2004-09-01 TA04-245A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Oracle Products
    • +
  • 2004-08-04 TA04-217A Multiple Vulnerabilities in libpng
    • +
  • 2004-07-30 TA04-212A Critical Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows
    • +
  • 2004-07-14 TA04-196A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows Components and Outlook Express
    • +
  • 2004-07-02 TA04-184A Internet Explorer Update to Disable ADODB.Stream ActiveX Control
    • +
  • 2004-06-22 TA04-174A Multiple Vulnerabilities in ISC DHCP 3
    • +
  • 2004-06-11 TA04-163A Cross-Domain Redirect Vulnerability in Internet Explorer
    • +
  • 2004-06-08 TA04-160A SQL Injection Vulnerabilities in Oracle E-Business Suite
    • +
  • 2004-05-26 TA04-147A CVS Heap Overflow Vulnerability
    • +
  • 2004-04-20 TA04-111B Cisco IOS SNMP Message Handling Vulnerability
    • +
  • 2004-04-20 TA04-111A Vulnerabilities in TCP
    • +
  • 2004-04-13 TA04-104A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Products
    • +
  • 2004-04-08 TA04-099A Cross-Domain Vulnerability in Outlook Express MHTML Protocol Handler
    • +
  • 2004-03-18 TA04-078A Multiple Vulnerabilities in OpenSSL
    • +
  • 2004-03-10 TA04-070A Microsoft Outlook mailto URL Handling Vulnerability
    • +
  • 2004-02-10 TA04-041A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft ASN.1 Library
    • +
  • 2004-02-05 TA04-036A HTTP Parsing Vulnerabilities in Check Point Firewall-1
    • +
  • 2004-02-02 TA04-033A Multiple Vulnerabilities in Microsoft Internet Explorer
    • +
  • 2004-01-28 TA04-028A W32/MyDoom.B Virus
    • +

For more information about CERT and potential security exploits for your operating system, please see http://www.cert.org.

+href="http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/techalerts/">http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/techalerts/.

For more information about some of the enhanced security features of FreeBSD, please see X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF97316A41C for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:10:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7447643D1F for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:10:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from elemental.DashEvil ([69.156.178.164]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050629211003.TIII27508.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@elemental.DashEvil>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:10:03 -0400 From: Chris Laverdure To: pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu In-Reply-To: <1119898550.42c04bb6e5906@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <1119898550.42c04bb6e5906@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:09:44 -0400 Message-Id: <1120079384.10023.5.camel@elemental.DashEvil> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:10:06 -0000 In which case it makes a lot of sense to have such a "brochure" start out with the basics, and the further you get into it, the more details are revealed. I believe that FreeBSD, and FreeBSD 5.x in general are misrepresented. Like GEOM, for example. Where is the geom advocacy? I've seen trolls tear it apart as phk's ego love child, but personally, after researching into it, I've found it greatly useful. But you know, geom is nothing until you've done the research. Nobody is out there telling people, hey, you want an encrypted mirror RAID spread across disk images on 5 different computers? It's simple as pie with GEOM. Simple, logical, flexible. I think that there should be a huge push with this image, regarding FreeBSD advocacy, rather than the typical, "We're better than X because of...." approach. I've said before, and I'll say again.. You try to demean someone elses solution, they often see it as an attack on themselves. Just my 2cents, now where is my interest? :) On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 14:55 -0400, pablo.delgado@lsi.mine.nu wrote: > I totally agree. We should not remove all the technical data. > But there should be more literature to attract different types of individuals. > > Some users are driven by looks, usability, simplicity/complexity, etc. Thats why > brochures for Honda / Toyota (just to follow the same analogy) come in different > size and shapes. Shome brochures display what the car could look like, other > display technical data, and other simple pose a life style that lures in people. > > > > From: Marc Fonvieille [mailto:blackend@freebsd.org] > > > > > > I thought you wanted to update the content... > > > and if it's for "newcomers" marketing/os-comparison.html > > > will be too much technical for them. > > > > Newcomers != technically illiterate > > > > If it's a straight comparison, then it needs to have technical information. > > Imagine taking a Honda Civic brochure and a Toyota Corolla brochure, > > removing all technical facts such as horsepower and mileage, and then > > comparing them only on the marketing verbiage. You cannot do it and have it > > makes sense. > > > > Marketing to newcomers doesn't mean hiding away the technical details. > > That's what the EZLinux distros do, and we're better than that. Don't hide > > the gnarly greasy details. If they scare away a few newbies, they wouldn't > > have been happy here anyway. But those that they don't scare away should be > > welcomed. > > > > David > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Chris Laverdure From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 29 21:31:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60DA16A41C for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:31:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A926E43D49 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:31:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i21so858392wra for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KgOtqWbcr/o8Js7ecyY83e+iOCtvPPcShrJ3IL6Okm/Kd6fIajvPZwv/aGWTPZWLWGUny/6xnIhOyBn238u4wb4W0yUW9qTLNeQ3ljWGltB9+GWkLdty0SWkkDXp8ChAs4pnS7JN17tlo4t07np4EFKBZbrFo0CUb4MI7X7OlF8= Received: by 10.54.15.38 with SMTP id 38mr10874wro; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.66 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fd864e050629143133817c8d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:31:30 -0700 From: Astrodog In-Reply-To: <1120079384.10023.5.camel@elemental.DashEvil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0873@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <1119898550.42c04bb6e5906@webmail.lsi.mine.nu> <1120079384.10023.5.camel@elemental.DashEvil> Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:31:32 -0000 Just as a quick aside. I've never wondered how many oil my car eats.=20 Sorry, I've just never seen that turn of phrase before. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 30 02:50:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAE416A41C for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:50:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: from hosting.sourcit.net (mail3.eitsolutions.net [68.23.20.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBBF43D48 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:50:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: (qmail 29232 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2005 21:43:21 -0500 Received: from al1-24.207.169.154.charter-stl.com (HELO ?192.168.1.102?) (24.207.169.154) by hosting.sourcit.net with SMTP; 29 Jun 2005 21:43:21 -0500 From: Bryan Maynard Organization: Sofos Nikitis To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:42:34 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.8 References: <20050625142349.1E3F04BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20050625142349.1E3F04BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506292142.34666.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Subject: Re: Let's update FreeBSD vs Linux vs Windows XP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:50:03 -0000 I really like this idea and would like to donate space on my server at http://reallm.com. I haven't been following this discussion to colse as I haven't had much time, but I'd be willing to contribute anything I can. I've been using FreeBSD as my OS and KDE as my Desktop Environment for two years now and I love them both! I know KDE is not FreeBSD, but I'd like people to know that FreeBSD can be used as a desktop OS too! I run on my desktop (Dell Dimension 2400) and my laptop (Dell Latitude C600). FreeBSD and KDE making using a computer fun again! Everything in KDE 3.4 look gorgeous and FreeBSD lets me tweak and play to my heart's content! Anyway, I'd really like to help spread the word about FreeBSD and Open Source software in general. I am at your service. . . Bryan -- Open Source: by the people, for the people.