From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 16 01:02:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7E316A403 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 01:02:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Received: from ithost6.ithost.nl (ns2.ithost.nl [84.246.47.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5874F43D53 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 01:02:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Received: from phooka.intra.schim.net (pepperann.dyndns.org [194.109.199.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by ithost6.ithost.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3G10VGb021986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:00:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:01:53 +0200 From: Joao Schim To: Benjamin Lutz Message-Id: <20060416030153.0dd838e8.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> In-Reply-To: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> Organization: NetManiacs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 2.0.0 (GTK+ 2.6.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on ithost6.ithost.nl Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 01:02:29 -0000 On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:13:29 +0200 Benjamin Lutz wrote: > Something occurred to me just now. I've been looking at the summer of code > page, where I noticed the "Rewrite cvsup in C" entry. When Perl was removed > from the FreeBSD base, the general notion was to rewrite any Perl scripts in > sh or C. > > Why is it that C++ is not used for our programs? The C++ compiler is in the > base and built by default, and the OOP paradigm is a nice one, that many > programmers, especially the younger ones (like me :) ) are probably more > familiar with than the tricks and techniques used in C to achieve good > efficiency. > > My first guess is that it's a habit. People dealing with the FreeBSD source > code are used to C, and therefore use that for their apps. If it's only that, > there'd be no good reason for not writing a tool like cvsup in C++, right? Or > is there a more technical reason? > > Cheers > Benjamin > Probably tradition (K&R) is the core reason for the lack of a substantial C++ codebase. Although the difference in compile time between C++ and traditional C code is noticeable, it is on modern systems not that much of an issue. (especially when considering we don't compile our system once a day) However, what can be seen as a big plus for traditional C is that the knowledge is quite widespread, what makes the code very maintainable within un*x circles. >From what i've heard the people from SUN decided to go for GNOME as their linux desktop system (long time ago) because they just happen to have more C programmers than C++, i guess the same paradigm applies to the FreeBSD base system. One might even go as far to say that if you can't do it in C what the heck are you doing in the base of an operating system... ......not saying that I would go as far ;) Kind regards, Joao -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J.H.M. Schim tel:070-3451049 06-53899169 /| / /| /| j.schim@netmaniacs.nl / | / / | / | http://www.netmaniacs.nl / |/ et/ |/ |aniacs v. Speijkstraat 218, 2518 GK Den Haag Netherlands ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 16 11:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C6F16A400 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A3443D45 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:53:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D4620A0; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:53:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2E7209F; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:53:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 83F4733C8D; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:53:01 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: James Bailie References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <4441199C.4090802@carebears.mine.nu> <44415038.4020101@jamesbailie.com> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:53:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <44415038.4020101@jamesbailie.com> (James Bailie's message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:57:44 -0400") Message-ID: <8664l991pf.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:53:07 -0000 James Bailie writes: > Efficiency is of prime importance in systems programming. The > only language in which one can write more efficient programs than > in C, is assembler, but it's not portable. This is a myth. I'm surprised to see it a Lisp programmer perpetuate it. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 16 11:54:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B639716A400 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:54:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAF043D46 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:54:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5E720B1; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:54:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77153209F; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:54:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4CD4A33C8D; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:54:49 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: "Daniel O'Connor" References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <4441199C.4090802@carebears.mine.nu> <200604160707.27476.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:54:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200604160707.27476.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> (Daniel O'Connor's message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2006 07:07:26 +0930") Message-ID: <86y7y57n1y.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Benjamin Lutz , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:54:54 -0000 "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > A not insignificant reason (IMO) is that C++ is much slower to > compile. > > Also, gcc didn't use to be (ie when FreeBSD was started) a good C++ > compiler. Neither of these are valid arguments, and essential parts of FreeBSD are in fact written in C++ - devd(8), for instance. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 16 14:05:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE4116A401 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:05:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from breath@unix.net) Received: from mtsnet.ru (mts3.mtsnet.ru [213.87.0.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8230843D45 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:05:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from breath@unix.net) Received: from [84.17.224.22] (HELO [172.22.131.28]) by mtsnet.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with SMTP id 94533; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:05:30 +0400 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yuri_Grebenkin?=" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_Lutz?=" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 16 Apr 2006 18:04:34 +0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Message-ID: Cc: Subject: RE:Why is not more FreeBSD software writ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:05:36 -0000 Here just what's on my mind. When you look at your project and think that i= t would be nice to do it in C then make it in just C. The point is to make = a clear code, not in the pointless complexion. By the way, one can realize = OOP-model in C better than in C++ if needed. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 16 14:10:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80CEC16A403 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:10:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from maxlor.mine.nu (c-213-160-32-54.customer.ggaweb.ch [213.160.32.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E0B43D53 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:10:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051D52E09D; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:10:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at atlantis.intranet Received: from maxlor.mine.nu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlantis.intranet [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gt48+AGLFKAl; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:10:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mini.intranet (mini.intranet [10.0.0.17]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9452E066; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:10:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Benjamin Lutz To: "Yuri Grebenkin" Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:10:04 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: In-Reply-To: X-Face: $Ov27?7*N,h60fIEfNJdb!m,@#4T/d; 1hw|W0zvsHM(a$Yn6BYQ0^SEEXvi8>D`|V*F"=?iso-8859-1?q?=5F+R=0A?= 2@Aq>+mNb4`,'[[%z9v0Fa~]AD1}xQO3|>b.z&}l#R-_(P`?@Mz"kS; XC>Eti,i3>%@g?4f,=?iso-8859-1?q?=5Cc7=7CGh=0A?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_wb=26ky=24b2PJ=5E=5C0b83NkLsFKv=7CsmL/cI4UD=25Tu8alAD?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1511785.EmN7QK4Ix9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200604161610.08089.benlutz@datacomm.ch> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software writ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:10:14 -0000 --nextPart1511785.EmN7QK4Ix9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday 16 April 2006 17:04, Yuri Grebenkin wrote: > [...] > By the way, one can realize OOP-model in C better than in C++ if needed. That is an interesting statement. I see how you can simulate OOP in C, but = can=20 you explain how one could realize it better than with C++? Cheers Benjamin --nextPart1511785.EmN7QK4Ix9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEQlBAgShs4qbRdeQRAnfMAJwOJtmwTMjTbB50XOIOb2MRXGpZXwCZARSb lMpYhYkJAOuahmfWdkTasfs= =M5FT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1511785.EmN7QK4Ix9-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 16 14:50:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E4A16A402 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:50:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from maxlor.mine.nu (c-213-160-32-54.customer.ggaweb.ch [213.160.32.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6214743D45 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:50:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7151E2E09D for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:50:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at atlantis.intranet Received: from maxlor.mine.nu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlantis.intranet [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t8tgSazC3M4K for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:50:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mini.intranet (mini.intranet [10.0.0.17]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412B62E066 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:50:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Benjamin Lutz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:50:07 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> In-Reply-To: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> X-Face: $Ov27?7*N,h60fIEfNJdb!m,@#4T/d; 1hw|W0zvsHM(a$Yn6BYQ0^SEEXvi8>D`|V*F"=?iso-8859-1?q?=5F+R=0A?= 2@Aq>+mNb4`,'[[%z9v0Fa~]AD1}xQO3|>b.z&}l#R-_(P`?@Mz"kS; XC>Eti,i3>%@g?4f,=?iso-8859-1?q?=5Cc7=7CGh=0A?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_wb=26ky=24b2PJ=5E=5C0b83NkLsFKv=7CsmL/cI4UD=25Tu8alAD?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1846146.lFr91Y3I4J"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200604161650.11428.benlutz@datacomm.ch> Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:50:16 -0000 --nextPart1846146.lFr91Y3I4J Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Thanks for your comments all that replied.=20 So to summarize, it seems there are really no technical reasons to not use = C++=20 for base system apps in FreeBSD. A quick look at /usr/src reveals a number = of=20 programs that do actually use C++: devd, gperf, groff and OpenSSL. The=20 reasons seem to be more circumstantial or personal: the individual develope= r=20 simply prefers to use C. Why did I even ask the question? I perceive correctness as a big problem wh= en=20 programming in C. It is difficult to know for sure that a C program is=20 correct, since there are no guards against mistakes like string buffer=20 overflows, erroneous pointer handling or memory allocation. C++ is of cours= e=20 far from being a golden bullet, but it does solve some of the problems (usi= ng=20 C++ strings instead of char* generally means you don't have to worry about= =20 string buffer overflows). I realize this is first grade flame war material, so I'll stop with languag= e=20 advocacy now. Yes, I also realize that experience and knowledge are more=20 important than technical language features :) . I've lately started spending some thought on code correctness and reliabili= ty.=20 =46rankly, I find the current situation appalling. All the time bugs are fo= und=20 even in very well tested software that could easily be prevented or=20 statically recognized by better software construction tools. The big questi= on=20 is, of course, when those tools are available (and some are already), what= =20 does it take to get people to use them. Cheers Benjamin --nextPart1846146.lFr91Y3I4J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEQlmjgShs4qbRdeQRApRzAJ9KTZvkqPc1VsAVurCDF6JgptyOJgCgg0TW Syw/6zsEGVWL7osxLfZPioY= =hkel -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1846146.lFr91Y3I4J-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 17 03:06:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A539316A401 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 03:06:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from smtpgate2.pacific.net.sg (smtpgate2.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.32]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2C8E43D46 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 03:06:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 1045 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2006 03:06:37 -0000 Received: from maxwell2.pacific.net.sg (203.120.90.192) by smtpgate2.pacific.net.sg with SMTP; 17 Apr 2006 03:06:37 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.33]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20060417030636.BGIU28656.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:06:36 +0800 Message-ID: <44430610.6010704@pacific.net.sg> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:05:52 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060112) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <4441199C.4090802@carebears.mine.nu> <44415038.4020101@jamesbailie.com> <8664l991pf.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <8664l991pf.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: James Bailie , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 03:06:41 -0000 Hi, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > James Bailie writes: >> Efficiency is of prime importance in systems programming. The >> only language in which one can write more efficient programs than >> in C, is assembler, but it's not portable. >=20 > This is a myth. I'm surprised to see it a Lisp programmer perpetuate it is a myth that assembler is not portable? Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 17 06:59:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2E916A402 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 06:59:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infofarmer@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6196443D48 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 06:59:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from infofarmer@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id l8so467116nzf for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 23:59:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HYgv+xVxiCG94wj4RCgMaYCnJOuRw2zc+2eLAn7UBAfd6GXMf8uOmRavEycLYWmb6HwtFt/afm2NTfiK+koKi4alrvmxrjDvfVqgQguEwQTqabqn/ag5p47lZYU91mpzSqZhplG0P9xoalUS0ZQcXTrp08CxeeQaK+oLTmMLnQw= Received: by 10.36.108.15 with SMTP id g15mr5849133nzc; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 23:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.22.74 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 23:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:59:10 +0400 From: "Andrew Pantyukhin" To: "Erich Dollansky" In-Reply-To: <44430610.6010704@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <4441199C.4090802@carebears.mine.nu> <44415038.4020101@jamesbailie.com> <8664l991pf.fsf@xps.des.no> <44430610.6010704@pacific.net.sg> Cc: James Bailie , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 06:59:11 -0000 On 4/17/06, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > James Bailie writes: > >> Efficiency is of prime importance in systems programming. The > >> only language in which one can write more efficient programs than > >> in C, is assembler, but it's not portable. > > > > This is a myth. I'm surprised to see it a Lisp programmer perpetuate > > it is a myth that assembler is not portable? No, obviously the other thing. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 17 14:48:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B4316A402 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:48:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC4943D46 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:48:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3HEmRfd072510; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:48:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:47:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <200604161650.11428.benlutz@datacomm.ch> In-Reply-To: <200604161650.11428.benlutz@datacomm.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200604171047.30753.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1403/Sun Apr 16 05:44:45 2006 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Benjamin Lutz Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:48:38 -0000 On Sunday 16 April 2006 10:50, Benjamin Lutz wrote: > Why did I even ask the question? I perceive correctness as a big problem when > programming in C. It is difficult to know for sure that a C program is > correct, since there are no guards against mistakes like string buffer > overflows, erroneous pointer handling or memory allocation. C++ is of course > far from being a golden bullet, but it does solve some of the problems (using > C++ strings instead of char* generally means you don't have to worry about > string buffer overflows). To be honest, if you want a "safer" language, I'd prefer going from C to C# or Java. C++'s syntax is, quite frankly, clunky in several places. At work I recently described C# generics as "C++ templates that don't suck" for example. :) Also, many of the bugs I either have myself or run into in other people's code come from the programmer not taking into account all of the conditions (i.e. missing an edge case in implementation or design), and those type of bugs are not something a language is going to solve. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 17 21:06:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6758716A400; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from maxlor.mine.nu (c-213-160-32-54.customer.ggaweb.ch [213.160.32.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C286543D48; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:06:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8E52E0A0; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:06:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at atlantis.intranet Received: from maxlor.mine.nu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlantis.intranet [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bc3AiqRrflHa; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:06:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mini.intranet (mini.intranet [10.0.0.17]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22032E09F; Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:06:46 +0200 (CEST) From: Benjamin Lutz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:06:37 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <200604161650.11428.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <200604171047.30753.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <200604171047.30753.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Face: $Ov27?7*N,h60fIEfNJdb!m,@#4T/d; 1hw|W0zvsHM(a$Yn6BYQ0^SEEXvi8>D`|V*F"=?iso-8859-1?q?=5F+R=0A?= 2@Aq>+mNb4`,'[[%z9v0Fa~]AD1}xQO3|>b.z&}l#R-_(P`?@Mz"kS; XC>Eti,i3>%@g?4f,=?iso-8859-1?q?=5Cc7=7CGh=0A?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_wb=26ky=24b2PJ=5E=5C0b83NkLsFKv=7CsmL/cI4UD=25Tu8alAD?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart9974750.ZRnEKKlOy4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200604172306.44838.benlutz@datacomm.ch> Cc: Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:06:49 -0000 --nextPart9974750.ZRnEKKlOy4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Monday 17 April 2006 16:47, John Baldwin wrote: > To be honest, if you want a "safer" language, I'd prefer going from C to > C# or Java. C++'s syntax is, quite frankly, clunky in several places. I perceive the syntax of C++, C# and Java to be very similar. The differenc= es=20 are minor. What about C++ is clunky that isn't also clunky in C# and Java?= =20 One thing that comes to mind is that you can't use >> with nested templates= ,=20 but then that's not one of the most common things a C++ programmer writes=20 anyway. The things that bug me about C++ are mostly semantic in nature (no= =20 uniform access or read-only vars, requiring you to manually create accessor= =20 functions for everything, for example. Or no contracts, but then none of th= e=20 mentioned languages offer that.) > At work I recently described C# generics as "C++ templates that don't > suck" for example. :) But C# templates offer little over the C++ ones (well, ok, there is one thi= ng,=20 template type specification, that's nice), but have severe limitations. Why= =20 do you like them better? > Also, many of the bugs I either have myself or run into in other people's > code come from the programmer not taking into account all of the conditio= ns > (i.e. missing an edge case in implementation or design), and those type of > bugs are not something a language is going to solve. Sure, there won't ever be a dwim language. But every mechanism that prevent= s a=20 class of bugs categorically is a step in the right direction, imo (that'd b= e=20 the direction of correctness). I'm aware that C++ isn't much of an=20 improvement over C when it comes to providing such mechanisms. However, it= =20 does make writing code more comfortable (well, if you know it, and like OOP= ),=20 and it is actually shipped with the FreeBSD base system. Cheers Benjamin --nextPart9974750.ZRnEKKlOy4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBERANkgShs4qbRdeQRAj65AJ9M9MoD/vsHUPbQNrnHCN0p5X2++wCfXk9c FniOF3I61jWmEXP96gRBqmI= =w7Y4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart9974750.ZRnEKKlOy4-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 18 09:39:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A0316A401 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:39:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail.matt.mcdonald@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F0343D70 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:39:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mail.matt.mcdonald@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id l8so822857nzf for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:39:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:from:to:cc:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:in-reply-to:x-mimeole:thread-index:message-id; b=uIdFXFw/qBixqqfzeMRyGwuMqFL+cByPSDQfiESvS+21okhUl9dtN9ABEVPHp4YdwLa9BtaP1fxLyaNpy7Gj98ebCRGGFj/f7fYRibkJkRTSOBUTuEb+wWfJJmszXiqnSYbsOoITkjzQ9DP+4ywyHVPLk9leu1/ixyyDe1EXNEg= Received: by 10.36.108.11 with SMTP id g11mr6363127nzc; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mattgrad ( [70.59.0.235]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 18sm684654nzo.2006.04.18.02.39.22; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:39:23 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'John Baldwin'" , Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 03:39:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <200604171047.30753.jhb@freebsd.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: AcZituTefaCY/00+TgOnztyKeztVtQAE4I5Q Message-ID: <4444b3cb.576eeb75.6445.3f08@mx.gmail.com> Cc: 'Benjamin Lutz' Subject: RE: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:39:30 -0000 I agree that if you're worried about buffer overruns, etc then managed code is the way to go. C#2.0 especially seems to be more and more viable as an all out c++ replacement since it seems to have an analog to all of the major language features of c++, plus a lot of added syntactic sugar. The only problem is that all of the install scripts should run with the smallest system possible, and for that sh or c is probably the way to go. -Matt McDonald -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of John Baldwin Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 8:47 AM To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Benjamin Lutz Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? On Sunday 16 April 2006 10:50, Benjamin Lutz wrote: > Why did I even ask the question? I perceive correctness as a big problem when > programming in C. It is difficult to know for sure that a C program is > correct, since there are no guards against mistakes like string buffer > overflows, erroneous pointer handling or memory allocation. C++ is of course > far from being a golden bullet, but it does solve some of the problems (using > C++ strings instead of char* generally means you don't have to worry about > string buffer overflows). To be honest, if you want a "safer" language, I'd prefer going from C to C# or Java. C++'s syntax is, quite frankly, clunky in several places. At work I recently described C# generics as "C++ templates that don't suck" for example. :) Also, many of the bugs I either have myself or run into in other people's code come from the programmer not taking into account all of the conditions (i.e. missing an edge case in implementation or design), and those type of bugs are not something a language is going to solve. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 18 11:04:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5DD16A408 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:04:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD2143D69 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:04:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (ylqnun@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3IB4KxJ053759 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:04:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k3IB4KHs053758; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:04:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:04:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200604181104.k3IB4KHs053758@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.0-20051224 ("Ronay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:04:26 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:04:34 -0000 Benjamin Lutz wrote: > Something occurred to me just now. I've been looking at the summer of > code page, where I noticed the "Rewrite cvsup in C" entry. When Perl > was removed from the FreeBSD base, the general notion was to rewrite > any Perl scripts in sh or C. Or awk. In fact, I helped porting several of the more important perl scripts to awk. > Why is it that C++ is not used for our programs? It is used for some userland programs. I guess the authors liked C++ and thought it would be advantageous to use it. Personally think that C++ is not a particularly good example of an OOP language. Apart from that, not all problems are solved best using OOP techniques. If you aim at correctness (robustness, safety, whatever), you should rather have a look at something like Cyclone or O'Caml. Both are no more or less efficient than C or C++, provide compile-time type-safety, and it's impossible to "implement" buffer overflows. They're not in the FreeBSD base system, though. YMMV. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "I learned Java 3 years before Python. It was my language of choice. It took me two weekends with Python before I was more productive with it than with Java." -- Anthony Roberts From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 18 12:56:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3C616A412 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:56:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F420B43D53 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:56:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3ICuOoK094093; Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:56:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: Benjamin Lutz Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:56:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> <200604171047.30753.jhb@freebsd.org> <200604172306.44838.benlutz@datacomm.ch> In-Reply-To: <200604172306.44838.benlutz@datacomm.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200604180856.19017.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1404/Tue Apr 18 06:03:40 2006 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:56:42 -0000 On Monday 17 April 2006 05:06 pm, Benjamin Lutz wrote: > On Monday 17 April 2006 16:47, John Baldwin wrote: > > To be honest, if you want a "safer" language, I'd prefer going from C to > > C# or Java. C++'s syntax is, quite frankly, clunky in several places. > > I perceive the syntax of C++, C# and Java to be very similar. The > differences are minor. What about C++ is clunky that isn't also clunky in > C# and Java? One thing that comes to mind is that you can't use >> with > nested templates, but then that's not one of the most common things a C++ > programmer writes anyway. The things that bug me about C++ are mostly > semantic in nature (no uniform access or read-only vars, requiring you to > manually create accessor functions for everything, for example. Or no > contracts, but then none of the mentioned languages offer that.) C++ allows things like multiple inheritance and operator overloading which can often be used to create some really confusing code. C# and Java both have a notion of interfaces and only allow single inheritance but additional extensions via interfaces. In my experience, this restriction actually results in a cleaner and more robust design. Similarly with operator overloading. Also, look at the difference in: =46oo.{cs,java}: class Foo { public void Bar() { ... } } vs. =46oo.hpp: class Foo { public void Bar(); }; =46oo.cpp: void Foo::Bar() { ... } Having to respecify all the namespaces again for each non-trivial function is clunky. With nested namespaces it can get even worse (void Foo::Bar::Baz::Qux::Quux(), etc.) > > At work I recently described C# generics as "C++ templates that don't > > suck" for example. :) > > But C# templates offer little over the C++ ones (well, ok, there is one > thing, template type specification, that's nice), but have severe > limitations. Why do you like them better? Because they are more limited. :) There is such a thing as too much=20 flexibility, and I prefer C# and Java's more limited syntax to C++ as I thi= nk=20 C++ is the "kitchen sink" language. Also, having the type specification is _very_ helpful. The difference between "class X does not implement IFooabl= e" and some 8-line error from gcc that has all the templates expanded complain= ing about a missing foo() method is just painful. > > Also, many of the bugs I either have myself or run into in other people= 's > > code come from the programmer not taking into account all of the > > conditions (i.e. missing an edge case in implementation or design), and > > those type of bugs are not something a language is going to solve. > > Sure, there won't ever be a dwim language. But every mechanism that > prevents a class of bugs categorically is a step in the right direction, > imo (that'd be the direction of correctness). I'm aware that C++ isn't mu= ch > of an improvement over C when it comes to providing such mechanisms. > However, it does make writing code more comfortable (well, if you know it, > and like OOP), and it is actually shipped with the FreeBSD base system. What I would like is a very basic C with classes to make the syntax for all the struct's with function pointers cleaner in the kernel. For the kernel it would have to avoid the pitfalls common with many OOP languages: all sorts of crap goes on in the background that you have to be aware of, which is a royal pain. For example, does 'a =3D b' result in memory being allocated due to a copy constructor or some operator overload somewhere? Operator overloading can be the worst for making code very obfuscated to all but the person who just wrote it 5 minutes ago. (And they'll be confused when the come back to it in 2 months for some new feature or bugfix.) =2D-=20 John Baldwin =A0<>< =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =A0=3D =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 07:41:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4795416A401 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:41:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.200.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3F643D4C for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:41:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-67-182-132-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net[67.182.132.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2006041907414201200frslhe>; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:41:43 +0000 Message-ID: <4445E9B6.2090508@kanga.org> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:41:42 -0700 From: David Cuthbert User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> In-Reply-To: <200604151313.32519.benlutz@datacomm.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0616-2, 04/18/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:41:44 -0000 Benjamin Lutz wrote: > Why is it that C++ is not used for our programs? The C++ compiler is in the > base and built by default, and the OOP paradigm is a nice one, that many > programmers, especially the younger ones (like me :) ) are probably more > familiar with than the tricks and techniques used in C to achieve good > efficiency. My experience writing commercial C++ code has made me swear that I'll never choose it again when starting a project from scratch. Admittedly, this probably not applicable to a project like FreeBSD, but I'm not about to go changing my bias for just one environment. The problem wasn't in the language itself but in the constantly broken implementations. We were trying to integrate various third-party modules which invariably insisted on using incompatible versions of g++ (or SunPro, or aCC, or xlC, or ...). I still have nightmares about seeing errors related ambiguous name resolution between "std::cout" and "::cout" because two files couldn't agree whether it was "#include " or "#include ". And don't get me started about duplicate or missing template symbols, and that godforsaken SunWS_cache directory which is always out-of-date... These days, I write in C when I need to be close to the machine, and a higher-than-C++-level language otherwise; my personal tonic is Python. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 10:04:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC5816A402 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:04:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8E943D45 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:04:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.3.R) with ESMTP id md50001004805.msg for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 03:00:42 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 03:04:38 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <44415038.4020101@jamesbailie.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Wed, 19 Apr 2006 03:00:42 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Wed, 19 Apr 2006 03:00:42 -0700 Subject: RE: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:04:42 -0000 > Efficiency is of prime importance in systems programming. I could not disagree more, depending upon what you're really trying to say. Performance may have been paramount ten years or more ago, and there's certainly a very small amount of code where performance really is the most important thing. But in the vast majority of cases, even in non-kernel systems programming, the ability to maintain, understand, and verify that the code is correct is *way* more important. Obviously, gratuituous inefficiency doesn't help anything. But in the vast majority of cases where you have to choose between efficiency and almost anything else, you should chose the other thing. The is especially true for the alleged inefficiency of C++ in comparison to C. You can shoot yourself in the foot with either language, of course. But proper use of C++ features does *not* measurably impact performance on modern processors with modern compilers. Of course, you can use OOP to write code that's harder to maintain, understand, and verify too. That's obviously not good. C++ doesn't force you to use any of its features. It just gives you more possibilities, each of which you are free to use only when it makes sense. Also, to save a separate post, I'd say to: >Why did I even ask the question? I perceive correctness as a big problem when >programming in C. It is difficult to know for sure that a C program is >correct, since there are no guards against mistakes like string buffer >overflows, erroneous pointer handling or memory allocation. C++ is of course >far from being a golden bullet, but it does solve some of the problems (using >C++ strings instead of char* generally means you don't have to worry about >string buffer overflows). Well, you can do anything in any language. However, C++ does make some things a lot easier. For example, you can plug in a debug version of your string class and get extra checks in all string operations that use it. This is a lot harder to do in C. In a release build, you can get the string class to inline to the point where there is no measurable performance hit. (In fact, if you do clever allocation tricks, you can make the string class pay for itself. Not that you couldn't do this in C, you just are much less likely to simply because it's harder.) The reasons C is used over C++ in non-kernel code are basically three: 1) C is more widely known than C++. Choosing C++ reduces the number of people who are likely to work on a project. 2) When the language was chosen for a lot of projects, C++ wasn't available, wasn't stable, or had specific implementation issues (such as slow compilation, poor optimization, and so on). 3) A lot of people are illogically biased against C++. The two largest forms are "C is better than C++ because it doesn't have any of the defects C++ added to C" and "C++ has poor performance compared to C, and performance is the most important thing". Largely, these arguments quickly collapse into the equivalent of "I don't know C++ as well as I know C", reducing this to reason 1. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 19:31:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB9416A400 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A18F43D45 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:31:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (localhost.natserv.net [127.0.0.1]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372B1B849 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 35st-server.simplicato.com (static-71-249-233-130.nycmny.east.verizon.net [71.249.233.130]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC4EB830 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ From: Francisco Reyes To: FreeBSD Chat List Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:31:30 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Subject: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:31:37 -0000 That was the hardware company David Greenman had. Did it go under? Looking for FreeBSD hardware vendors and that would have been a good one if it still was around. :-( From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 19:34:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BF116A401 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:34:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Received: from knight.iXsystems.com (knight.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1F743D46 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:34:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Received: from [192.168.1.197] (drawbridge.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.65]) by knight.iXsystems.com (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k3JJRGCm023135; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Message-ID: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:34:31 -0700 From: Matt Olander User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:34:32 -0000 Francisco Reyes wrote: > That was the hardware company David Greenman had. > Did it go under? > > Looking for FreeBSD hardware vendors and that would have been a good one > if it still was around. :-( *cries* well, there's us (iXsystems), and FreeBSD Systems, and Iron Systems, to name a few. Of course, I prefer us! ;-) cheers, -matt -- Matt Olander CTO, iXsystems - "Servers for Open Source" http://www.iXsystems.com Public Relations, The FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org Phone: (408)943-4100 ext. 113 Fax: (408)943-4101 -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 19:43:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68CA16A404 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:43:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDD443D7E for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:43:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [86.130.152.72] (helo=[192.168.0.7]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu3) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1FWIa80FQU-0006kI; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:43:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> References: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1D01DA29-0932-42D3-9321-67D3B3F4287B@sepulcrum.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Liam J. Foy" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:43:18 +0100 To: Matt Olander X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.749.3) X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:1ca2002b29693e660bea0febad56607a Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:43:22 -0000 On 19 Apr 2006, at 20:34, Matt Olander wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: >> That was the hardware company David Greenman had. >> Did it go under? >> Looking for FreeBSD hardware vendors and that would have been a >> good one if it still was around. :-( > > *cries* well, there's us (iXsystems), and FreeBSD Systems, and Iron > Systems, to name a few. Of course, I prefer us! ;-) > > cheers, > -matt > > Hi Matt, http://www.ixsystems.com/cgi-bin/store/about.html Says you use NetBSD. What products is NetBSD used on? I'm just curious:) --- Liam J. Foy BSDPortal.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 19:45:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7E4E16A40D for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:45:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Received: from knight.iXsystems.com (knight.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B9443D45 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:45:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Received: from [192.168.1.197] (drawbridge.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.65]) by knight.iXsystems.com (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k3JJcDCm023423; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Message-ID: <44469358.3000406@iXsystems.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:45:28 -0700 From: Matt Olander User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Liam J. Foy" References: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> <1D01DA29-0932-42D3-9321-67D3B3F4287B@sepulcrum.org> In-Reply-To: <1D01DA29-0932-42D3-9321-67D3B3F4287B@sepulcrum.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:45:30 -0000 Liam J. Foy wrote: >> *cries* well, there's us (iXsystems), and FreeBSD Systems, and Iron >> Systems, to name a few. Of course, I prefer us! ;-) >> >> cheers, >> -matt >> >> > > Hi Matt, > > http://www.ixsystems.com/cgi-bin/store/about.html > > Says you use NetBSD. What products is NetBSD used on? I'm just curious:) OMG! seeeeeeecret! Actually, we're almost finished with a new site design (finally), and that will be a little more clear for those in the know ;-) Cheers, -matt -- Matt Olander CTO, iXsystems - "Servers for Open Source" http://www.iXsystems.com Public Relations, The FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org Phone: (408)943-4100 ext. 113 Fax: (408)943-4101 -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 19:51:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172DE16A40F for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:51:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BF143D75 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:51:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (localhost.natserv.net [127.0.0.1]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD713B84B; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 35st-server.simplicato.com (static-71-249-233-130.nycmny.east.verizon.net [71.249.233.130]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3088AB849; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:51:19 -0400 (EDT) References: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> Message-ID: X-Mailer: http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ From: Francisco Reyes To: Matt Olander Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:51:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:51:23 -0000 Matt Olander writes: > *cries* well, there's us (iXsystems), and FreeBSD Systems, and Iron > Systems Did you used to have a different name.. some 5 or 6 years ago? I recall having bought a couple of servers and after a year.. I believe the company got renamed iXsystems.. What is the easiest/fastest way to get a quote.. email/quote system/phone? For any other vendors willing to read further Our priorities are not that complex... 1- It MUST work flawlesly with FreeBSD. (1) 2- Dual CPU, 4GB RAM with all 4GB visible(2) 3- Must work with IPMI(3) 4- 400GB+ Under 3U. We are considering going with 10K RPM 150GB raptors, so 6 to 8 drives would be nice (specially since we want RAID 10). 5- Under 6 thousand or very close to that. NOTES: 1- We have a vendor that is very "nice" and responsive, but we are possibly one of the few companies buying 2U, 3U from them. Bumping into compatibility issues. 2- We got 2 machines with 4GB, but the machines were not stable, so had to leave the "whole" on.. and only use 3GB :-( 3- This has been major issue. the combo: FreeBSD, Broadcom cards, IPMI, SMP is crashing FreeBSD with the latest server. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 19:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D034D16A401 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:55:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Received: from knight.iXsystems.com (knight.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B75E43D5E for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:55:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Received: from [192.168.1.197] (drawbridge.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.65]) by knight.iXsystems.com (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id k3JJlmCm023555; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@iXsystems.com) Message-ID: <44469597.8050103@iXsystems.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:55:03 -0700 From: Matt Olander User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes References: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:55:04 -0000 Francisco Reyes wrote: > Did you used to have a different name.. some 5 or 6 years ago? > I recall having bought a couple of servers and after a year.. I believe > the company got renamed iXsystems.. Haha, yes, we've been through a few ;-) It'd make a nice chapter in a BSD book one day. > What is the easiest/fastest way to get a quote.. email/quote system/phone? Phone or email (sales@ixsystems.com), but I just forwarded your email and you should receive a response shortly. -matt -- Matt Olander CTO, iXsystems - "Servers for Open Source" http://www.iXsystems.com Public Relations, The FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org Phone: (408)943-4100 ext. 113 Fax: (408)943-4101 -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 19 21:12:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAB016A404 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:12:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8770743D55 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:12:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (localhost.natserv.net [127.0.0.1]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD810B849; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 35st-server.simplicato.com (static-71-249-233-130.nycmny.east.verizon.net [71.249.233.130]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68865B830; Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:12:38 -0400 (EDT) References: <444690C7.20205@iXsystems.com> <1D01DA29-0932-42D3-9321-67D3B3F4287B@sepulcrum.org> <44469358.3000406@iXsystems.com> Message-ID: X-Mailer: http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ From: Francisco Reyes To: Matt Olander Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:12:37 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Cc: Liam =?ISO-8859-1?B?Si4=?= Foy , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:12:40 -0000 Matt Olander writes: > OMG! seeeeeeecret! Actually, we're almost finished with a new site > design (finally), and that will be a little more clear for those in the > know ;-) I hope that doesn't orphans FreeBSD users who buy your system. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 13:01:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EFE16A400 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:01:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D37E43D49 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:01:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (ripyjs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3KD1daO055173 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k3KD1dM1055172; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.0-20051224 ("Ronay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:45 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:01:47 -0000 Francisco Reyes wrote: > Our priorities are not that complex... > 1- It MUST work flawlesly with FreeBSD. (1) > 2- Dual CPU, 4GB RAM with all 4GB visible(2) That isn't possible if you need to run 32bit (i386). Depending on the board, only 3 to 3.5 GByte will be usable, the rest is used by PCI configuration space. If you need more RAM, you must run 64bit (amd64), and make sure that you don't depend on software that isn't 64bit-clean. Another possibility is to enable PAE, but that's an ugly crutch with its own class of problems. I recommend to avoid PAE for production systems if possible. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "Python is an experiment in how much freedom programmers need. Too much freedom and nobody can read another's code; too little and expressiveness is endangered." -- Guido van Rossum From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 17:23:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2691416A401 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:23:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: from mail871.megamailservers.com (mail871.carrierinternetsolutions.com [69.49.106.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353AA43D53 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:23:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) X-POP-User: strick.covad.net Received: from mist.nodomain (h-67-101-99-172.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net [67.101.99.172]) by mail871.megamailservers.com (8.13.6/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k3GAXZTl001137 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 06:33:36 -0400 Received: from mist.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3GAXZCO001786 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@mist.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id k3GAXZSK001785 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:33:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200604161033.k3GAXZSK001785@mist.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:23:45 -0000 OOPS ... I accidentally sent off that last message on the subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? while trying to run ispell on it. In addition to fixing a bunch of typos that I trust everyone will just ignore, I wanted to add: I really like C++ but I am not sure how to deal with the performance problems. They are not so trivial that they can always be ignored. I have done a few casual benchmarks. Code that uses C++ strings can run up to 100 times slower than functionally equivalent code that uses C character arrays (though such an extreme case is surely pathological). Code that uses C++ iostreams typically runs somewhere between 2 and 9 times slower than code that uses C stdio. You don't believe me? Compare cout << ' '; to putchar(' '); and weep. Of course most programs presumably spend only a small part of their runtime on strings and i/o. I wish I could say the the advantages of C++ are so great as to outweigh any possible performance glitch, but I can't quite bring myself to do that. Dan Strick --------------------------------------------------------------------- P.S. In case you missed the message to which this one applies, here it is: Most software is probably written in C rather than C++ because fewer programmers are familiar with C++. Note that this means C++ programs are in a practical sense less portable and more difficult to maintain even though the GNU C++ compiler is a good implementation, widely available and pretty much standard in all unix-like OS distributions. It may be just as well that most software is written in C. Programs written in C probably run only a very few percent slower when compiled as C++. (I am assuming the programs are written in the common subset language.) Even language features peculiar to C++ are generally implemented quite efficiently. Programs written in a good C++ style naturally use C++ standard library facilities (classes, private functions, templates) that can be expensive. Since C++ programmers generally do not consider the underlying implementations (arguably a very good thing), significant unintended run-time overhead can result. For example, I once rewrote a program in C++ and discovered the C++ version ran about 5.5 times slower than the original C version. My "mistake": I used the C++ string and iostream classes. After rewriting the C++ program to use C stdio instead of C++ iostreams and replacing C++ string classes with C character arrays, the C++ program ran only 1.5 times slower than the C program. I must note that the C++ version was in some ways a lot cleaner than the C version. The problem is that a major reason for using C++ in the first place is to take advantage of these specific C++ library features. A major motivation for the development of C++ itself was to facilitate code sharing by better isolating main program code from library implementation details. A C++ program that avoids using simplifying standard library facilities by reimplementing them is arguably bad C++. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 17:41:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C3616A402 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:41:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: from mail875.megamailservers.com (mail875.carrierinternetsolutions.com [69.49.106.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75A443D45 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:41:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) X-POP-User: strick.covad.net Received: from mist.nodomain (h-67-101-99-172.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net [67.101.99.172]) by mail875.megamailservers.com (8.13.6/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k3G9b6rW029815 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 05:37:07 -0400 Received: from mist.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3G9b6IO001238 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 02:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@mist.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id k3G9b6UD001237 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2006 02:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 02:37:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200604160937.k3G9b6UD001237@mist.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:41:29 -0000 Most software is probably written in C ranther than C++ because fewer programmers are familiar with C++. Note that this means C++ programs are in a practical sense less portable and more difficult to maintain even though the GNU C++ compiler is a good implementation, widely available and pretty much standard in all unix-like OS distribution. It may be just as well that most software is written in C. Programs written in C probably run only a very few percent slower when compiled as C++. (I am assuming the programs are written in the common subset language.) Even language features peculiar to C++ are generally implemented quite efficiently. Programs written in a good C++ style naturally use C++ standard library facilities (classes, private functions, templates) that can be expensive. Since C++ programmers generally do not consider the underlying implementations (arguably a very good thing), significant unintended run-time overhead can result. For example, I once rewrote a program in C++ and discovered the C++ version ran about 5.5 times slower than the original C version. My "mistake": I used the C++ string and iostream classes. After rewriting the C++ program to use C stdio instead of C++ iostreams and replacing C++ string classes with C character arrays, the C++ program ran only 1.5 times slower than the C program. I must note that the C++ version was in some ways a lot cleaner than the C version. The problem is that a major reason for using C++ in the first place is to take advantage of these specific C++ library features. A major motivation for the development of C++ itself was to facilitate code sharing by better isolating main program code from library implemention details. A C++ program that avoids using simplifying standard library facilities by reimplementing them is arguably bad C++. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 20:58:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4815816A401 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:58:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from maxlor.mine.nu (c-213-160-32-54.customer.ggaweb.ch [213.160.32.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB9143D4C for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:58:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benlutz@datacomm.ch) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73042E0A3; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:58:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at atlantis.intranet Received: from maxlor.mine.nu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlantis.intranet [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7FLL9TL6ThCs; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:58:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mini.intranet (mini.intranet [10.0.0.17]) by maxlor.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFE92E0A1; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:58:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Benjamin Lutz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:58:35 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <200604161033.k3GAXZSK001785@mist.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200604161033.k3GAXZSK001785@mist.nodomain> X-Face: $Ov27?7*N,h60fIEfNJdb!m,@#4T/d; 1hw|W0zvsHM(a$Yn6BYQ0^SEEXvi8>D`|V*F"=?iso-8859-1?q?=5F+R=0A?= 2@Aq>+mNb4`,'[[%z9v0Fa~]AD1}xQO3|>b.z&}l#R-_(P`?@Mz"kS; XC>Eti,i3>%@g?4f,=?iso-8859-1?q?=5Cc7=7CGh=0A?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_wb=26ky=24b2PJ=5E=5C0b83NkLsFKv=7CsmL/cI4UD=25Tu8alAD?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart44070071.c6Iv2kfUaA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200604202258.38424.benlutz@datacomm.ch> Cc: Dan Strick Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:58:45 -0000 --nextPart44070071.c6Iv2kfUaA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday 16 April 2006 12:33, Dan Strick wrote: > I really like C++ but I am not sure how to deal with the performance > problems. They are not so trivial that they can always be ignored. > I have done a few casual benchmarks. Code that uses C++ strings > can run up to 100 times slower than functionally equivalent code > that uses C character arrays (though such an extreme case is surely > pathological). Code that uses C++ iostreams typically runs > somewhere between 2 and 9 times slower than code that uses C stdio. > > You don't believe me? Compare > cout << ' '; > to > putchar(' '); > and weep. > > Of course most programs presumably spend only a small part of their > runtime on strings and i/o. I wish I could say the the advantages > of C++ are so great as to outweigh any possible performance glitch, > but I can't quite bring myself to do that. The example above is not exactly a realworld example. Even if you stick to= =20 plain C, a repeated putchar(' ') is 1-2 orders of magnitude slower than=20 aggregating those characters and write()'ing them every few dozen chars. I'm not sure that I/O routine efficiency is really that relevant. I can't=20 think of any program I use whose I/O routines are CPU bound. Ok, I guess if= =20 we look at really weak or embedded devices, say, those Soekris net4501=20 boards, I/O CPU efficiency will make a difference. The advantages of the iostream framework are clear though, you can do thing= s=20 like=20 cout << some_complicated_data_structure_object; even if you don't know what the class of the object you're dealing with is.= =20 > Programs written in a good C++ style naturally use C++ standard library > facilities (classes, private functions, templates) that can be expensive. > Since C++ programmers generally do not consider the underlying > implementations (arguably a very good thing), significant unintended > run-time overhead can result. But it's not like have to choose standard implementations in every case. If= =20 the STL indeed does not give satisfactory performance, you can still write= =20 your own specialized (fast) code. > The problem is that a major reason for using C++ in the first place is > to take advantage of these specific C++ library features. A major > motivation for the development of C++ itself was to facilitate code > sharing by better isolating main program code from library implementation > details. A C++ program that avoids using simplifying standard library > facilities by reimplementing them is arguably bad C++. The STL is not the only feature you get with C++. OOP is the major other on= e,=20 and it's useful even if you choose not to use any 3rd party libraries. Cheers Benjamin --nextPart44070071.c6Iv2kfUaA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBER/X+gShs4qbRdeQRAlqUAKCQTsEXJ5tnlY5MKtW+xLtGfP20AACcDAMU U+3EOfZArVnn7MRuAdY01mc= =PI/5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart44070071.c6Iv2kfUaA-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 22:56:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D76316A4DE for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:56:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from labhracooks@itoh.gentei.org) Received: from wht.mmtr.or.jp (72.Red-83-41-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net [83.41.60.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4DD0143D53 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:56:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from labhracooks@itoh.gentei.org) Message-ID: <000001c664cd$a938c0e0$799ea8c0@nqu89> From: "Labhra Cooksey" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:56:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: yezip news X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Labhra Cooksey List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:56:57 -0000 Dea x r Home Ow l ne m r ,=20 =20 Your cr c ed o it doesn't matter to us ! If you O h WN real e n st z at y e=20 and want IM m MED u IAT h E cas l h to sp e en s d ANY way you like, or simply wish=20 to L a OWER your monthly pa s ym y ents by a third or more, here are the dea v ls=20 we have T t OD v AY :=20 =20 $ 4 u 88 , 000 at a 3 , v 67% f b ixed - rat a e=20 $ 37 i 2 , 000 at a 3 , v 90% v c ariab v le - rat i e=20 $ 4 c 92 , 000 at a 3 q , 21% inte o res z t - only=20 $ 24 g 8 , 000 at a 3 f , 36% f a ixed - ra e te=20 $ 1 t 98 , 000 at a 3 , 5 a 5% v d ariable - rat j e=20 =20 Hur k ry, when these de f aIs are gone, they are gone ! =20 Don't worry about a d pprov h al, your cr p ed v it will not dis j qua f lify you !=20 =20 V l isi m t ou r r site =20 =20 Sincerely, Labhra Cooksey=20 =20 A q ppr d oval Manager From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 22:57:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BC316A41B for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:57:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C3643D58 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:57:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (localhost.natserv.net [127.0.0.1]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05877B856 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 35st-server.simplicato.com (static-71-249-233-130.nycmny.east.verizon.net [71.249.233.130]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1198B854 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:57:17 -0400 (EDT) References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: X-Mailer: http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ From: Francisco Reyes To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:57:17 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Cc: Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:57:20 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > Depending on the board, only 3 to 3.5 GByte will be > usable, the rest is used by PCI configuration space. > > If you need more RAM, you must run 64bit (amd64), > and make sure that you don't depend on software that > isn't 64bit-clean. So 4GB and more, requires 64bit CPUs? Out of curiosity does FreeBSD AMD64 works on Intel 64 bit chips? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 23:07:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8B016A40A for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:07:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE27D43D5A for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:06:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (unknown [200.46.204.144]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087EB62CADA; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:06:59 -0300 (ADT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (av.hub.org [200.46.204.144]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUjs74oypVPP; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:06:53 -0300 (ADT) Received: from ganymede.hub.org (blk-222-82-85.eastlink.ca [24.222.82.85]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B78462CACF; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:06:57 -0300 (ADT) Received: by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A230A488E9; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:07:00 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D4047B56; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:07:00 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:07:00 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Francisco Reyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060420200637.H1096@ganymede.hub.org> References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:07:03 -0000 On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > >> Depending on the board, only 3 to 3.5 GByte will be >> usable, the rest is used by PCI configuration space. >> >> If you need more RAM, you must run 64bit (amd64), >> and make sure that you don't depend on software that >> isn't 64bit-clean. > > > So 4GB and more, requires 64bit CPUs? > Out of curiosity does FreeBSD AMD64 works on Intel 64 bit chips? I'm running AMD64 on HP Proliant G4p server with Dual 64bit Xeon CPUs ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 20 23:10:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF3D16A406 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:10:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5843743D7D for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:10:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local (Exim 4.44) id 1FWiIK-0007gE-8A; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:10:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:10:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Francisco Reyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:10:38 -0000 On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Out of curiosity does FreeBSD AMD64 works on Intel 64 bit chips? I am using FreeBSD/amd64 on CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 2.80GHz (2793.02-MHz K8-class CPU) (Note that it was a hassle knowing that amd64 was okay.) Jeremy C. Reed echo ':6DB6=88>?;@69876tA=AC8BB5tA6487><' | tr '4-F' 'wu rofIn.lkigemca' From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 00:23:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB9716A413 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:23:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darren.pilgrim@bitfreak.org) Received: from mail.bitfreak.org (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4567943D46 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:23:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from darren.pilgrim@bitfreak.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mail.bitfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356E119F2C; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44482617.30406@bitfreak.org> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:23:51 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:23:54 -0000 Francisco Reyes wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > >> Depending on the board, only 3 to 3.5 GByte will be >> usable, the rest is used by PCI configuration space. >> >> If you need more RAM, you must run 64bit (amd64), >> and make sure that you don't depend on software that >> isn't 64bit-clean. > > So 4GB and more, requires 64bit CPUs? > Out of curiosity does FreeBSD AMD64 works on Intel 64 bit chips? Yes. AFAICT, you need to run amd64 if you want to make use of EM64T. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 01:34:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B320D16A408 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFBE43D62 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:34:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (localhost.natserv.net [127.0.0.1]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F91B84B; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (zoraida.natserv.net [66.114.65.147]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFA4B830; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:34:16 -0400 (EDT) References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> <20060420200637.H1096@ganymede.hub.org> Message-ID: X-Mailer: http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ From: Francisco Reyes To: Marc =?ISO-8859-1?B?Ry4=?= Fournier Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:34:16 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:34:19 -0000 Marc G. Fournier writes: > I'm running AMD64 on HP Proliant G4p server with Dual 64bit Xeon CPUs ... How much Ram Marc? Wondering at which point it will make sense, for us, to start going above 4GB. In particular if the processes running are close to using all 4GB, then there is nothing/little left for disk caching. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 01:35:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45AEC16A44A for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:35:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD5B43D49 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:35:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@stringsutils.com) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (localhost.natserv.net [127.0.0.1]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36FA0B849; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zoraida.natserv.net (zoraida.natserv.net [66.114.65.147]) by zoraida.natserv.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14049B830; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:35:54 -0400 (EDT) References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: X-Mailer: http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/ From: Francisco Reyes To: Jeremy =?ISO-8859-1?B?Qy4=?= Reed Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:35:54 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:35:55 -0000 Jeremy C. Reed writes: > I am using FreeBSD/amd64 on > CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 2.80GHz (2793.02-MHz K8-class CPU) On a single CPU board or SMP? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 02:03:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB52716A406 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:03:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ldrada@gmail.com) Received: from nproxy.gmail.com (nproxy.gmail.com [64.233.182.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B5F43D46 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:03:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ldrada@gmail.com) Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m18so40288nfc for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:03:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PZtemPuMZdShE7N7CvDkhtxPKxegcH2gd+naI0ftxIEl2X1AAhCCZ5puepWD7XeA7E5fqVwZeQFCg4GcrYDQ1sm8bRCrFWx0/n3Q11Bc6Urbyc5dvct+2L9E4eVeY+7V0ApBNRL0x1cOV9w9lCH5ZPtTSy7Diayjp5pkRiAFjOk= Received: by 10.49.57.3 with SMTP id j3mr700514nfk; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.30.12 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5ceb5d550604201626ga064468j9a1b114301e2486f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:26:50 +0200 From: "Daniel A." To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <000001c664cd$a938c0e0$799ea8c0@nqu89> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <000001c664cd$a938c0e0$799ea8c0@nqu89> Subject: Re: yezip news X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:03:41 -0000 On 4/21/06, Labhra Cooksey wrote: > Dea x r Home Ow l ne m r , > > Your cr c ed o it doesn't matter to us ! If you O h WN real e n st z at > y e > and want IM m MED u IAT h E cas l h to sp e en s d ANY way you like, or > simply wish > to L a OWER your monthly pa s ym y ents by a third or more, here are the > dea v ls > we have T t OD v AY : > > $ 4 u 88 , 000 at a 3 , v 67% f b ixed - rat a e > $ 37 i 2 , 000 at a 3 , v 90% v c ariab v le - rat i e > $ 4 c 92 , 000 at a 3 q , 21% inte o res z t - only > $ 24 g 8 , 000 at a 3 f , 36% f a ixed - ra e te > $ 1 t 98 , 000 at a 3 , 5 a 5% v d ariable - rat j e > > Hur k ry, when these de f aIs are gone, they are gone ! > > Don't worry about a d pprov h al, your cr p ed v it will not dis j qua f > lify you ! > > V l isi m t ou r r site > > Sincerely, Labhra Cooksey > > A q ppr d oval Manager > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > It's funny. They spend so much effort getting their spam mails past filters, they even forget why they sent out the spam in the first place. I think that, today, a well-formatted spam mail would have higher chance of reaching peoples inboxes than the crap just witnessed above. Ironic, no? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 04:04:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C0216A402 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:04:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A230943D48 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:04:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local (Exim 4.44) id 1FWmsg-0000Q1-G6; Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:04:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:04:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Francisco Reyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:04:26 -0000 On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > I am using FreeBSD/amd64 on CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 2.80GHz (2793.02-MHz > > K8-class CPU) > > On a single CPU board or SMP? 4 CPUs Jeremy C. Reed echo ':6DB6=88>?;@69876tA=AC8BB5tA6487><' | tr '4-F' 'wu rofIn.lkigemca' From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 04:50:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C5616A402 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:50:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D671E43D46 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:50:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (unknown [200.46.204.144]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB3362CB26; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:50:17 -0300 (ADT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (av.hub.org [200.46.204.144]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ikf4hJoYgHXj; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:50:16 -0300 (ADT) Received: from ganymede.hub.org (blk-222-82-85.eastlink.ca [24.222.82.85]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0086D62CB17; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:50:16 -0300 (ADT) Received: by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 69DC64A08D; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:25:59 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6916349831; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:25:59 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:25:59 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Francisco Reyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060421012458.B1096@ganymede.hub.org> References: <200604201301.k3KD1dM1055172@lurza.secnetix.de> <20060420200637.H1096@ganymede.hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:50:21 -0000 On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Marc G. Fournier writes: > >> I'm running AMD64 on HP Proliant G4p server with Dual 64bit Xeon CPUs ... > > How much Ram Marc? 6G of RAM ... again, note that these are 64bit servers, and I believe these servers max out at 24G (6x4G DIMMs) ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 10:34:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B2116A402 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:34:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD0C43D4C for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:34:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (qpszcd@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3LAY0nk096657 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:34:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k3LAY0TP096656; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:34:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:34:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200604211034.k3LAY0TP096656@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.0-20051224 ("Ronay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:34:05 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: What ever happened to Terasolutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:34:07 -0000 Francisco Reyes wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > Depending on the board, only 3 to 3.5 GByte will be > > usable, the rest is used by PCI configuration space. > > > > If you need more RAM, you must run 64bit (amd64), > > and make sure that you don't depend on software that > > isn't 64bit-clean. > > So 4GB and more, requires 64bit CPUs? Yes. (If you don't want PAE. You probably don't.) > Out of curiosity does FreeBSD AMD64 works on Intel 64 bit chips? Yes, it works fine on AMD64 and intel EM64T processors. By the way, using 64bit (FreeBSD/amd64) can even be useful if you have less than 4 GByte RAM. For example if 32bit address space is not enough for your applications. In this case, not even PAE can help -- you _have_ to go 64bit. (In other words: PAE might enable you to use RAM >= 4 GB, but your processes will still be limited to 32bit address space.) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs." -- Robert Firth From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 21 16:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610D616A402 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:30:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22A643D48 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:30:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by pilgrim.local.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3LGKnfs001399; Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:20:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:20:51 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dan Strick Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:30:53 -0000 The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ and the c++ compiler may optimize better then the c compiler. When you use things like iostreams and string you get a lot of code that does a lot more then what you may need at time however it may save you a lot of time in the future when you need the functionality or there is a bug that they saved you from. But all of this need to be determine by the needs of the app. Some times speed is important other time security is and so on. C++ and c are a general purpose *compilers*. The fact is all the other languages I've seen talk about in this thread are not. C++ and C are languages that are defined by ANSI and the users have a great deal to say about what that definition is, many of the languages talked about are not (Ref Tip 59 of "The Pragmatic Programmer" Hunt & Thomas). As far as OOP and c++, there seem to be a myth out there that c++ is a OOP language, it's not, it a language which supports OOP. What I mean to say is that it is not design to only be used for OOP it designed to be general purpose. OOP is not aways best way to design an app just talk to the aspect guys. Many of the things that people find difficult about c++ are there in order to sure that the engineer using it is able to do as much as would with assembly language, which was one of c's original goals. Make no mistake about it you can write bad code in any language. C++ belong to us, the engineer and programmer that have to grind out code every day and I think it's better if we work to improve it rather and embracing a corporate own thing which will make us slaves to there whims. This is why I use FreeBSD. I disagree with the group more often then not but at leases I get a say based on merit not on money. About the original question I think the answer is that some of it is legacy and some is the authors feel more comfortable with good old c and feel that they will get more contributors. On the point of legacy code I have found that much of my old c code was easily converted to c++ just by changing the make file to c++. In many cases I was then able to use things like string and many of my c++ libs. I was surprised at how easy it was. Just the ramblings of an over worked software engineer.. Don 8) Benjamin Lutz wrote: >On Sunday 16 April 2006 12:33, Dan Strick wrote: > > >>I really like C++ but I am not sure how to deal with the performance problems. They are not so trivial that they can always be ignored. I have done a few casual benchmarks. Code that uses C++ strings can run up to 100 times slower than functionally equivalent code that uses C character arrays (though such an extreme case is surely pathological). Code that uses C++ iostreams typically runs >>somewhere between 2 and 9 times slower than code that uses C stdio. >> >>You don't believe me? Compare >> cout << ' '; >>to >> putchar(' '); >>and weep. >> >>Of course most programs presumably spend only a small part of their runtime on strings and i/o. I wish I could say the the advantages of C++ are so great as to outweigh any possible performance glitch, but I can't quite bring myself to do that. >> >> > >The example above is not exactly a realworld example. Even if you stick to plain C, a repeated putchar(' ') is 1-2 orders of magnitude slower than aggregating those characters and write()'ing them every few dozen chars. > >I'm not sure that I/O routine efficiency is really that relevant. I can't think of any program I use whose I/O routines are CPU bound. Ok, I guess if we look at really weak or embedded devices, say, those Soekris net4501 boards, I/O CPU efficiency will make a difference. > >The advantages of the iostream framework are clear though, you can do things like > > cout << some_complicated_data_structure_object; > >even if you don't know what the class of the object you're dealing with is. > > > >>Programs written in a good C++ style naturally use C++ standard library facilities (classes, private functions, templates) that can be expensive. Since C++ programmers generally do not consider the underlying >>implementations (arguably a very good thing), significant unintended run-time overhead can result. >> >> > >But it's not like have to choose standard implementations in every case. If the STL indeed does not give satisfactory performance, you can still write your own specialized (fast) code. > > > >>The problem is that a major reason for using C++ in the first place is to take advantage of these specific C++ library features. A major motivation for the development of C++ itself was to facilitate code sharing by better isolating main program code from library implementation details. A C++ program that avoids using simplifying standard library facilities by reimplementing them is arguably bad C++. >> >> > >The STL is not the only feature you get with C++. OOP is the major other one, and it's useful even if you choose not to use any 3rd party libraries. > >Cheers >Benjamin > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 14:52:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A29816A408 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:52:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from artifact.one@googlemail.com) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA2243D68 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:52:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from artifact.one@googlemail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s9so413792wxc for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 07:52:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=googlemail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=k1qKU/MTcnqDlmdfootXXaNDJ1g8okdhVQ6Y5Uu2AtIfWDwv567aT7Rquo3HM7jfpCIp3UMvPHT/29razjtgZOeXSW42ZzWwKXvl1oQcZhgG7Jqn1rNsSuMhw5YJjdzohjYG3CKLTozcLBvE7hGkr4Yq8wrZ1SPZAPdtXEen2F8= Received: by 10.70.130.15 with SMTP id c15mr1645004wxd; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 07:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.49.4 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e96a0b90604220752k2e5b0de5o8a4ad16e70a0526e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:52:00 +0100 From: "mal content" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Linus - COW/vmsplice() X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:52:08 -0000 http://kerneltrap.org/node/6506 Can anybody explain what he's going on about? I know a bit about VM but I'm no kernel hacker. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 15:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A5216A50B for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: from mail874.megamailservers.com (mail874.carrierinternetsolutions.com [69.49.106.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D86E43D46 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:12:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) X-POP-User: strick.covad.net Received: from mist.nodomain (h-67-101-151-109.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net [67.101.151.109]) by mail874.megamailservers.com (8.13.6/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k3MFBxiJ002409 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:12:00 -0400 Received: from mist.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MFBxs3003219; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@mist.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id k3MFBxa2003218; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200604221511.k3MFBxa2003218@mist.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:12:02 -0000 On Friday 21 Apr 2006 09:20, Don Dugger wrote: > > The example above is not exactly a realworld example. Even if you stick > to plain C, a repeated putchar(' ') is 1-2 orders of magnitude slower > than aggregating those characters and write()'ing them every few dozen > chars. > This might seem obvious, but is it really true? I wrote a program that tries it both ways with the output redirected to /dev/null and discovered that filling a 24 character buffer and doing a write() takes about 11 times as much cpu time as 24 putchar()s. Perhaps a buffer larger than a "few dozen chars" would be useful. There must be a moral here somewhere. :-) Don continued: > > I'm not sure that I/O routine efficiency is really that relevant. I can't > think of any program I use whose I/O routines are CPU bound. Ok, I guess > if we look at really weak or embedded devices, say, those Soekris > net4501 boards, I/O CPU efficiency will make a difference. > I wrote in my original message that I first noticed the iostream performance problem when I compared the run time of a C program rewritten in C++ to the run time of the original C program. The C++ version ran about 5.5 times slower. It was a very "real world" program that performed some simple matrix computations and pretty-printed the results. Most of the effort apparently went into the pretty-printing. This must have exaggerated the performance problem. The C program did a lot of stuff like: char buf[...]; sprintf (buf, "...", ...); /* format output */ do_something_with (buf); The equivalent iostream idiom is: ostringstream bos; bos.str (""); bos << ... ; // format output string s = bos.str(); // extract string from ostringstream do_something_with (s.c_str()); // extract characters from string This turns out to be a performance nightmare for various reasons apparently involving the implementation of strings and iostreams. The problem is not just with ostringstreams. printf ("...", ...); generally runs many times faster than cout << ... << ...; The problem is not just with formatted output. putchar (c); also runs many times faster than cout.put (c); I don't know why. It just does. Perhaps in-line functions are not always an efficient alternative to preprocessor macros. I am not claiming that strings and iostreams are bad. I am observing that some reasonable programs that use these facilities will run very slowly and I am suggesting that it is not always obvious which programs these are. I am also expressing disappointment because I want the decision to use any feature of C++ or its standard library to be a no-brainer. Dan Strick From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 15:33:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A0E16A402 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467FE43D45 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:33:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MFX1EB022819; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A4CAD.7080901@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:33:01 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200604221511.k3MFBxa2003218@mist.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200604221511.k3MFBxa2003218@mist.nodomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dan Strick Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:33:18 -0000 Not that it matters a great deal but I didn't write that. Don ;^) Dan Strick wrote: >On Friday 21 Apr 2006 09:20, Don Dugger wrote: > > >>The example above is not exactly a realworld example. Even if you stick >>to plain C, a repeated putchar(' ') is 1-2 orders of magnitude slower >>than aggregating those characters and write()'ing them every few dozen >>chars. >> >> >> > >This might seem obvious, but is it really true? I wrote a program that >tries it both ways with the output redirected to /dev/null and discovered >that filling a 24 character buffer and doing a write() takes about 11 times >as much cpu time as 24 putchar()s. Perhaps a buffer larger than a "few >dozen chars" would be useful. There must be a moral here somewhere. :-) > >Don continued: > > >>I'm not sure that I/O routine efficiency is really that relevant. I can't >>think of any program I use whose I/O routines are CPU bound. Ok, I guess >>if we look at really weak or embedded devices, say, those Soekris >>net4501 boards, I/O CPU efficiency will make a difference. >> >> >> > >I wrote in my original message that I first noticed the iostream performance >problem when I compared the run time of a C program rewritten in C++ to the >run time of the original C program. The C++ version ran about 5.5 times >slower. It was a very "real world" program that performed some simple matrix >computations and pretty-printed the results. Most of the effort apparently >went into the pretty-printing. This must have exaggerated the performance >problem. > >The C program did a lot of stuff like: > > char buf[...]; > sprintf (buf, "...", ...); /* format output */ > do_something_with (buf); > >The equivalent iostream idiom is: > > ostringstream bos; > bos.str (""); > bos << ... ; // format output > string s = bos.str(); // extract string from ostringstream > do_something_with (s.c_str()); // extract characters from string > >This turns out to be a performance nightmare for various reasons >apparently involving the implementation of strings and iostreams. >The problem is not just with ostringstreams. > > printf ("...", ...); > >generally runs many times faster than > > cout << ... << ...; > >The problem is not just with formatted output. > > putchar (c); > >also runs many times faster than > > cout.put (c); > >I don't know why. It just does. Perhaps in-line functions are not >always an efficient alternative to preprocessor macros. > >I am not claiming that strings and iostreams are bad. I am observing >that some reasonable programs that use these facilities will run very >slowly and I am suggesting that it is not always obvious which programs >these are. I am also expressing disappointment because I want the >decision to use any feature of C++ or its standard library to be a >no-brainer. > >Dan Strick >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 16:03:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516FA16A404 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: from mail844.megamailservers.com (mail844.carrierinternetsolutions.com [69.49.106.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C810643D58 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:03:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) X-POP-User: strick.covad.net Received: from mist.nodomain (h-67-101-151-109.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net [67.101.151.109]) by mail844.megamailservers.com (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k3MG3rd7015780 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:03:54 -0400 Received: from mist.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MG3riR003383; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@mist.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mist.nodomain (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id k3MG3rmI003382; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:03:56 -0000 On Saturday 22 Apr 2006 08:33, Don Dugger wrote: > > Not that it matters a great deal but I didn't write that. > Oops. I was confused by multiple levels of attribution and missing > characters. I should have been more careful. :-( The attribution should have been to Benjamin Lutz. Dan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 16:42:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F29C16A403 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:42:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9415B43D58 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:42:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1DE2086; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:42:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7587B2085; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:42:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5101D33C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:42:16 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Don Dugger References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:42:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> (Don Dugger's message of "Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:20:51 -0700") Message-ID: <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Dan Strick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:42:23 -0000 Don Dugger writes: > The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ That is wrong. To name just one example, C++ is much stricter about type casts than C is. > and the c++ compiler may optimize better then the c compiler. I doubt it. It is the exact same compiler with the exact same optimizer and the exact same code generator. The only difference between gcc and g++ is the parser. > C++ and C are languages that are defined by ANSI No they're not. It may surprise you to learn that there is a whole world outside the USA which does not care one whit about ANSI. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 16:43:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4AD16A400 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:43:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FE843D5C for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:43:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB2F2088; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:43:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A652085; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:43:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 580BD33C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:43:19 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: "mal content" References: <8e96a0b90604220752k2e5b0de5o8a4ad16e70a0526e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:43:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8e96a0b90604220752k2e5b0de5o8a4ad16e70a0526e@mail.gmail.com> (mal content's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:52:00 +0100") Message-ID: <868xpxpnmg.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linus - COW/vmsplice() X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:43:24 -0000 "mal content" writes: > http://kerneltrap.org/node/6506 > > Can anybody explain what he's going on about? He's just being an ass, as usual. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:15:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FB16A402 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:15:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A45043D46 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:15:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MHFE43024387; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A64A3.2020208@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:15:15 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Dan Strick Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:15:24 -0000 Now that that's cleared up :-D I too do not think much of iostream, not sure I agree about strings. But "streams" have been around a lot longer then c++. I first encountered them in AIX protocol stacks. Didn't like 'em then either. Although the idea of pushing functional units down a pipe does seem interesting, however I have never found it works very well in practice, and the reason was always performance. I think the problem is in fact is a general problem the more under lying functionality you have the less performance. And I don't think that got any thing to do with the language. Having said that, some languages with perform better at some tasks then others, but remember c++ is a general purpose language and I believe can normally out perform other languages if the program is written right. If you need to you can use the c lib stuff and only use the c++ added functionality when it pays to. After all some of the c++ stuff is just better, "//" comments and passing by reference and etc. I think the reason streams was added to c++ early on was that a lot of people didn't like printf(), the found it hard to use, which I never understood. I use printf() rather then iostream and until someone comes up with a better io lib I will keep using it. I have noticed that iostreams have gone through a large number of changes over the years. But strings are another matter. For more years then I will admit to I've been using strcpy() and the other "string.h stuff and the problem of allocate, reallocating and deallocating buffers has bitten me way to many times. So when there are allocation issues I use strings. BTW in the case of file io I wrote my own library of classes and found that it wasn't that hard to get performance and good functionality, I will however admit that the scope was only files not general io. Don :-) Dan Strick wrote: >On Saturday 22 Apr 2006 08:33, Don Dugger wrote: > > >>Not that it matters a great deal but I didn't write that. >> >> >> > >Oops. > >I was confused by multiple levels of attribution and missing > characters. >I should have been more careful. :-( > >The attribution should have been to Benjamin Lutz. > >Dan >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A1716A40D for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:17:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.200.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E49943D46 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:17:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-67-182-132-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net[67.182.132.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20060422171735013001d73ce>; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:17:34 -0700 From: David Cuthbert User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0616-4, 04/21/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:17:36 -0000 Don Dugger wrote: > C++ and C are languages that are defined by ANSI Dag-Erling Smørgrav replied: > No they're not. It may surprise you to learn that there is a whole > world outside the USA which does not care one whit about ANSI. This would be news to those involved in the standardization process, who went through great pains to ensure that ISO C90 was the same as ANSI C89, ANSI C++98 was the same as ISO C++98, and ANSI C2000 was the same as ISO C99... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:23:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B131116A400 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:23:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F27343D58 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:23:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778192083; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:23:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C132082; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:23:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B02A933C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:23:23 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: David Cuthbert References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:23:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> (David Cuthbert's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:17:34 -0700") Message-ID: <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:23:29 -0000 David Cuthbert writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > Don Dugger writes: > > > C++ and C are languages that are defined by ANSI > > No they're not. It may surprise you to learn that there is a whole > > world outside the USA which does not care one whit about ANSI. > This would be news to those involved in the standardization process, > who went through great pains to ensure that ISO C90 was the same as > ANSI C89, ANSI C++98 was the same as ISO C++98, and ANSI C2000 was > the same as ISO C99... Whatever you may think, C and C++ are not defined by ANSI. They're defined by ISO's JTC1/SC22, working groups 14 and 21, respectively. While it is very nice of ANSI to adopt the result of that work as national standards for the US, it is largely irrelevant for the remaining 6 billion people on the planet. And please get a proper MUA, so I don't have to fix your quoting when replying. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:36:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC37816A406 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:36:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC4243D5A for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:36:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BE72088; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:36:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87DC2087; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:36:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C68B633C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:36:00 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Don Dugger References: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> <444A64A3.2020208@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:36:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444A64A3.2020208@hotlz.com> (Don Dugger's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:15:15 -0700") Message-ID: <86zmido6m7.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Dan Strick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:36:08 -0000 Don Dugger writes: > But "streams" have been around a lot longer then c++. I first encountered > them in AIX protocol stacks. Didn't like 'em then either. SysV streams and C++ I/O streams are completely unrelated (except that they both originated at AT&T and one probably inspired the other) > Although the idea of pushing functional units down a pipe does seem > interesting, however I have never found it works very well in > practice, and the reason was always performance. No "functional units" are being "pushed down the pipe" with C++ I/O streams. The << stuff is mere syntactic sugar. What happens is simply that the correct function is called to format each element and pass it to the output stream. > I think the problem is in fact is a general problem the more under > lying functionality you have the less performance. Wrong. Higher-level constructs allow the compiler more latitude to optimize the code. This is why well-written Lisp, for instance, can outperform well-written C (provided you use a decent Lisp compiler). > If you need to you can use the c lib stuff and only use the c++ > added functionality when it pays to. After all some of the c++ stuff > is just better, "//" comments and passing by reference and etc. // comments are neither better nor worse than /* */ comments, and they have been available in C for seven years now. C++ references are very nice, but almost impossible for a non-expert to use properly (any object passed by reference *must* be of a class which has a correctly designed copy constructor) > I think the reason streams was added to c++ early on was that a lot > of people didn't like printf(), the found it hard to use, which I > never understood. Nobody claims printf() is hard to understand, but it is neither extensible nor type-safe. What C++ lacks to be a top-notch OO language is garbage collection and iterators which aren't a PITA to use. Both will be present in C++0x. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:41:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8133916A403 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:41:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE2E43D5A for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:41:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181D11A3C22; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6874155422; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:41:19 -0400 From: Kris Kennaway To: mal content Message-ID: <20060422174119.GA13973@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <8e96a0b90604220752k2e5b0de5o8a4ad16e70a0526e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gKMricLos+KVdGMg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8e96a0b90604220752k2e5b0de5o8a4ad16e70a0526e@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linus - COW/vmsplice() X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:41:21 -0000 --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 22, 2006 at 03:52:00PM +0100, mal content wrote: > http://kerneltrap.org/node/6506 >=20 > Can anybody explain what he's going on about? I know a bit about > VM but I'm no kernel hacker. The thing to realise is that the piece of code he's calling FreeBSD developers "incompetent" for (options ZERO_COPY_SOCKETS) is not enabled by default for basically the very reasons he says. Kris --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFESmq+Wry0BWjoQKURAtrMAKDPyoq2RYGXW81vahX3UMikpIf2xgCeOCCb 9o/HL0r2Xvn16RKPkAY0IqA= =g8nm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gKMricLos+KVdGMg-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:44:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CE216A405 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:44:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C686D43D68 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:43:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MHhmIx024685; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A6B54.1030902@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:43:48 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:44:01 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Don Dugger writes: > > >>The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ >> >> > >That is wrong. To name just one example, C++ is much stricter about >type casts than C is. > > I mean the constructs. Casting will not change the functionality or shouldn't. > > >>and the c++ compiler may optimize better then the c compiler. >> >> > >I doubt it. It is the exact same compiler with the exact same >optimizer and the exact same code generator. The only difference >between gcc and g++ is the parser. > > Actually your wrong, first gcc is not the only compiler and a g++ compilers can optimize at link time, as was point out to me by the guys that wrote the DEC c++ compiler. And the point was that there's no less performance with c++, which your comment only reinforces. > > >>C++ and C are languages that are defined by ANSI >> >> > >No they're not. It may surprise you to learn that there is a whole >world outside the USA which does not care one whit about ANSI. > >DES > > I apologizes if you thought I was making any reference to nationality in that comment I was only trying to say that c++ is not owned by a corporation and as you point out is subject to the hole worlds views not just the interests of a small group of people who are only interested in there own profits. Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 17:59:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5C516A404 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:59:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B899543D46 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:59:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB542083; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:59:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F7B2082; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:59:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AE07933C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:59:28 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Don Dugger References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A6B54.1030902@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:59:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444A6B54.1030902@hotlz.com> (Don Dugger's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:43:48 -0700") Message-ID: <86vet1o5j3.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:59:38 -0000 Don Dugger writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > Don Dugger writes: > > > The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ > > That is wrong. To name just one example, C++ is much stricter about > > type casts than C is. > I mean the constructs. Casting will not change the functionality or > shouldn't. It does. Casting can be (and often is) used to force or avoid sign promotion in function arguments; for instance, isspace(ch) may produce incorrect results if ch is a char, so a cast to int is required. C allows any expression of pointer type to be assigned to a void *, and allows any expression of type void * to be assigned to any object pointer type. C++ does not. As a result, a typical C program which uses malloc() without casting the result will not compile cleanly with a C++ compiler. A competent C programmer will balk at adding the cast that C++ requires; a competent C++ programmer will correctly point out that a C++ program should not use malloc() anyway. There are other incompatiblities: const has different semantics in C and C++, namespaces aren't quite the same (there is no separation between the typedef namespace and the struct namespace in C++), etc. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 19:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0369116A402 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:09:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896C443D48 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:09:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MJ9TvZ025623; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:09:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A7F6A.4050206@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:09:30 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> <444A64A3.2020208@hotlz.com> <86zmido6m7.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86zmido6m7.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:09:35 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Don Dugger writes: > > >>But "streams" have been around a lot longer then c++. I first encountered >>them in AIX protocol stacks. Didn't like 'em then either. >> >> > >SysV streams and C++ I/O streams are completely unrelated (except that >they both originated at AT&T and one probably inspired the other) > > > >>Although the idea of pushing functional units down a pipe does seem >>interesting, however I have never found it works very well in >>practice, and the reason was always performance. >> >> > >No "functional units" are being "pushed down the pipe" with C++ I/O >streams. The << stuff is mere syntactic sugar. What happens is >simply that the correct function is called to format each element and >pass it to the output stream. > > > Ok you don't like my way of describing it. Functional units lined up one after the other or however you prefer. The point is that they both use the word streams and that's what both of them are about functional units which pass information form one to the other. My point was that I do believe that the one inspired the other. If you know this not to be the case please enlighten me. >>I think the problem is in fact is a general problem the more under >>lying functionality you have the less performance. >> >> > >Wrong. Higher-level constructs allow the compiler more latitude to >optimize the code. This is why well-written Lisp, for instance, can >outperform well-written C (provided you use a decent Lisp compiler). > > > Wait are trying to say that it not true that doing more takes more time. While I will agree that higher-level constructs can lead to better optimization. I stand by the statement, doing more stuff takes more time. >>If you need to you can us >> >>e the c lib stuff and only use the c++ >>added functionality when it pays to. After all some of the c++ stuff >>is just better, "//" comments and passing by reference and etc. >> >> > >// comments are neither better nor worse than /* */ comments, and they >have been available in C for seven years now. > > That's pure opinion and one that I haven't head. >C++ references are very nice, but almost impossible for a non-expert >to use properly (any object passed by reference *must* be of a class >which has a correctly designed copy constructor) > > That doesn't make foo(int& i) very hard to use. And come on you seem to be capable, writing a copy constructor isn't that bad and when your done you have done just as much moving of the data as you need, if you leave that up to a compiler it may not be what you want. Of course there are time when your not concerned about performance but I thought that's what we there talking about. Look writing good code takes work and if you think that's going away by a better language get in line they been try for 50 years and so far what see is what we've got. > > >>I think the reason streams was added to c++ early on was that a lot >>of people didn't like printf(), the found it hard to use, which I >>never understood. >> >> > >Nobody claims printf() is hard to understand, but it is neither >extensible nor type-safe. > > > And how many times have I seen "<<" simply impl'd as a printf(), how does that change anything. The tact is the first time someone told me about c++ they there telling how they didn't have to use that printf() thing any more, as if it was a life changing thing. I don't think it's hard to use and I agree that it has major draw back and you only mention two. I just don't like iostreams and I happen to agree that there performance is bad. >What C++ lacks to be a top-notch OO language is garbage collection and >iterators which aren't a PITA to use. Both will be present in C++0x. > >DES > > I'm not sure I follow that statement, however lisp is not a replacement the c++ and OO is not the only way to go and in many cases is a very pour way to go. While I like it for a lot of reasons I don't think that it's the answer to all the problem that come along. Hey I like lisp too but there's times it just not the right language for the job. Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 19:18:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9057516A401 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:18:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA1543D48 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:18:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MJGLh2025702; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A8106.5010801@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:16:22 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A6B54.1030902@hotlz.com> <86vet1o5j3.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86vet1o5j3.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:18:38 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Don Dugger writes: > > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> >> >>>Don Dugger writes: >>> >>> >>>>The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ >>>> >>>> >>>That is wrong. To name just one example, C++ is much stricter about >>>type casts than C is. >>> >>> >>I mean the constructs. Casting will not change the functionality or >>shouldn't. >> >> > >It does. Casting can be (and often is) used to force or avoid sign >promotion in function arguments; for instance, isspace(ch) may produce >incorrect results if ch is a char, so a cast to int is required. > >C allows any expression of pointer type to be assigned to a void *, >and allows any expression of type void * to be assigned to any object >pointer type. C++ does not. As a result, a typical C program which >uses malloc() without casting the result will not compile cleanly with >a C++ compiler. A competent C programmer will balk at adding the cast >that C++ requires; a competent C++ programmer will correctly point out >that a C++ program should not use malloc() anyway. > >There are other incompatiblities: const has different semantics in C >and C++, namespaces aren't quite the same (there is no separation >between the typedef namespace and the struct namespace in C++), etc. > >DES > > And how does that change my point? Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 21:10:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD4E16A415 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:10:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C9043D58 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:10:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD6B2083; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:10:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F432082; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:10:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E2B8433C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:10:40 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Don Dugger References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A6B54.1030902@hotlz.com> <86vet1o5j3.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A8106.5010801@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:10:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444A8106.5010801@hotlz.com> (Don Dugger's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:16:22 -0700") Message-ID: <86mzednwof.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:10:48 -0000 Don Dugger writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > Don Dugger writes: > > > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > > > Don Dugger writes: > > > > > The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ > > > > That is wrong. To name just one example, C++ is much stricter about > > > > type casts than C is. > > > I mean the constructs. Casting will not change the functionality or > > > shouldn't. > > It does. Casting can be (and often is) used to force or avoid sign > > promotion in function arguments; for instance, isspace(ch) may produce > > incorrect results if ch is a char, so a cast to int is required. > > > > C allows any expression of pointer type to be assigned to a void *, > > and allows any expression of type void * to be assigned to any object > > pointer type. C++ does not. As a result, a typical C program which > > uses malloc() without casting the result will not compile cleanly with > > a C++ compiler. A competent C programmer will balk at adding the cast > > that C++ requires; a competent C++ programmer will correctly point out > > that a C++ program should not use malloc() anyway. > > > > There are other incompatiblities: const has different semantics in C > > and C++, namespaces aren't quite the same (there is no separation > > between the typedef namespace and the struct namespace in C++), etc. > And how does that change my point? You claim (on the first line quoted above) that "all your c code will compile in c++". I am trying to show that you are wrong. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 21:13:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDC616A401 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:13:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD4643D49 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:13:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE812083; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:13:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D462E2082; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:13:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B06B233C31; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:13:29 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Don Dugger References: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> <444A64A3.2020208@hotlz.com> <86zmido6m7.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A7F6A.4050206@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:13:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444A7F6A.4050206@hotlz.com> (Don Dugger's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:09:30 -0700") Message-ID: <86irp1nwjq.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:13:35 -0000 Don Dugger writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > // comments are neither better nor worse than /* */ comments, and > > they have been available in C for seven years now. > That's pure opinion and one that I haven't head. The availability of // comments in C99, which is now seven years old, is fact, not opinion. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 21:19:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900C316A400 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:19:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B5443D45 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:19:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MLJX9Y027044; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A9DE6.4070203@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:19:34 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:19:39 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >David Cuthbert writes: > > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> >> >>>Don Dugger writes: >>> >>> >>>>C++ and C are languages that are defined by ANSI >>>> >>>> >>>No they're not. It may surprise you to learn that there is a whole >>>world outside the USA which does not care one whit about ANSI. >>> >>> >>This would be news to those involved in the standardization process, >>who went through great pains to ensure that ISO C90 was the same as >>ANSI C89, ANSI C++98 was the same as ISO C++98, and ANSI C2000 was >>the same as ISO C99... >> >> > >Whatever you may think, C and C++ are not defined by ANSI. They're >defined by ISO's JTC1/SC22, working groups 14 and 21, respectively. >While it is very nice of ANSI to adopt the result of that work as >national standards for the US, it is largely irrelevant for the >remaining 6 billion people on the planet. > >And please get a proper MUA, so I don't have to fix your quoting when >replying. > >DES > > Not that any of this really matter's, but this was not the way I remembered it happening so I did a little looking. Bjarne Stroustrup says in his book "The C++ Programming Language" Third Edition (I think he had something do with c++) on page 11 that the ISO standard was taken from the ANSI standard and "From 1990, these joint C++ standards committees have been the main forum for the evolution of C++ and the refinement of its of its definition." I also noticed that the g++ compiler has a "-ansi" option. BTW where's Bjarne from? In the book he mentions Murray Hill, New Jersey but with that name I think he from somewhere else. And let me say this is not important other I used the term ANSI and maybe I should have just said standards committee which was my point. Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 21:26:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94AE16A400 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:26:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1814143D4C for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:26:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MLQocs027125; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444A9F9B.3080006@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:26:51 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200604221603.k3MG3rmI003382@mist.nodomain> <444A64A3.2020208@hotlz.com> <86zmido6m7.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A7F6A.4050206@hotlz.com> <86irp1nwjq.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86irp1nwjq.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:26:54 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Don Dugger writes: > > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> >> >>>// comments are neither better nor worse than /* */ comments, and >>>they have been available in C for seven years now. >>> >>> >>That's pure opinion and one that I haven't head. >> >> > >The availability of // comments in C99, which is now seven years old, >is fact, not opinion. > >DES > > Wrong part of the statement I was talking about it being better or worse. And again you your missing the point. What does this have to do with why one would use c rather then c++? Or the myth that c++ has poor performance in comparison to c. Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 21:43:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CF216A401 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:43:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAF343D45 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:43:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MLh8n6027302; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444AA36D.50506@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:43:09 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A6B54.1030902@hotlz.com> <86vet1o5j3.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A8106.5010801@hotlz.com> <86mzednwof.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86mzednwof.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:43:12 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Don Dugger writes: > > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> >> >>>Don Dugger writes: >>> >>> >>>>Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Don Dugger writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The fact is that all your c code will compile in c++ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>That is wrong. To name just one example, C++ is much stricter about >>>>>type casts than C is. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>I mean the constructs. Casting will not change the functionality or >>>>shouldn't. >>>> >>>> >>>It does. Casting can be (and often is) used to force or avoid sign >>>promotion in function arguments; for instance, isspace(ch) may produce >>>incorrect results if ch is a char, so a cast to int is required. >>> >>>C allows any expression of pointer type to be assigned to a void *, >>>and allows any expression of type void * to be assigned to any object >>>pointer type. C++ does not. As a result, a typical C program which >>>uses malloc() without casting the result will not compile cleanly with >>>a C++ compiler. A competent C programmer will balk at adding the cast >>>that C++ requires; a competent C++ programmer will correctly point out >>>that a C++ program should not use malloc() anyway. >>> >>>There are other incompatiblities: const has different semantics in C >>>and C++, namespaces aren't quite the same (there is no separation >>>between the typedef namespace and the struct namespace in C++), etc. >>> >>> >>And how does that change my point? >> >> > >You claim (on the first line quoted above) that "all your c code will >compile in c++". I am trying to show that you are wrong. > >DES > > Ok I should have said most or some, but I'm taking about the original point which is that c++ is not where the performance problem comes from it's the code in the library or that was generated by the templates or many other thing and there are trade offs no matter what you use and that many of the things like iostreams come with a great deal of other functionality other then simply outputting a character to the screen and if you use iostreams your going to pay for that functionality with performance. You can however use the old c library stuff and get the same performance you got with c. In all the case I saw for comparisson he used things that were from iostrems. Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 22:16:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437BF16A402 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:16:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BC143D48 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:16:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A323F2087; Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:16:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -2.4/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on tim.des.no Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 307492085; Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0798C33C31; Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:16:14 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Don Dugger References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A9DE6.4070203@hotlz.com> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:16:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <444A9DE6.4070203@hotlz.com> (Don Dugger's message of "Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:19:34 -0700") Message-ID: <86ejzpntn6.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:16:20 -0000 Don Dugger writes: > Not that any of this really matter's, but this was not the way I > remembered it happening so I did a little looking. Bjarne Stroustrup > says in his book "The C++ Programming Language" Third Edition (I > think he had something do with c++) on page 11 that the ISO standard > was taken from the ANSI standard and "From 1990, these joint C++ > standards committees have been the main forum for the evolution of > C++ and the refinement of its of its definition." Exactly. C and C++ have been in ISO's hands since 1990, so for the past 16 years, ANSI has had no involvement in their development other than to rubberstamp what ISO produces. > BTW where's Bjarne from? In the book he mentions Murray Hill, New > Jersey but with that name I think he from somewhere else. He is Danish. Murray Hill, NJ is the location of AT&T Labs, where he works. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 22:47:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A3216A404 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:47:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from www.hotlz.com (freedom.hotlz.com [209.20.218.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE5D43D45 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:47:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Received: from [172.27.240.45] (henry.local.hotlz.com [172.27.240.45]) by www.hotlz.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k3MMlkAA028005; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:47:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dugger@hotlz.com) Message-ID: <444AB293.40809@hotlz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:47:47 -0700 From: Don Dugger User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A9DE6.4070203@hotlz.com> <86ejzpntn6.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86ejzpntn6.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:47:52 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Don Dugger writes: > > >>Not that any of this really matter's, but this was not the way I >>remembered it happening so I did a little looking. Bjarne Stroustrup >>says in his book "The C++ Programming Language" Third Edition (I >>think he had something do with c++) on page 11 that the ISO standard >>was taken from the ANSI standard and "From 1990, these joint C++ >>standards committees have been the main forum for the evolution of >>C++ and the refinement of its of its definition." >> >> > >Exactly. C and C++ have been in ISO's hands since 1990, so for the >past 16 years, ANSI has had no involvement in their development other >than to rubberstamp what ISO produces. > > > So if c++ isn't all that good it's ISO fault not ANSI? Why is this so important to you. You don't really believe that all the engineer in the US simply don't care what's it the standard and have no input at all. That HP and IBM and SUN and Microsoft and and and .... just sit here and say what ever you want ISO we don't care. Well that doesn't sound like the corporate world I know. Nor does that sound like the guys at FSF. But I will admit I complain about the decision and do thing myself. >>BTW where's Bjarne from? In the book he mentions Murray Hill, New >>Jersey but with that name I think he from somewhere else. >> >> > >He is Danish. Murray Hill, NJ is the location of AT&T Labs, where he >works. > >DES > > I know where AT&T *was*. Don 8) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 22 22:49:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BB916A401 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:49:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.200.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65CD743D45 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:49:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-67-182-132-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net[67.182.132.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2006042222492601100r48q2e>; Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:49:27 +0000 Message-ID: <444AB2F6.3070502@kanga.org> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:49:26 -0700 From: David Cuthbert User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <44490663.3040506@hotlz.com> <86d5f9pno8.fsf@xps.des.no> <444A652E.5010403@kanga.org> <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <864q0lplro.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0616-4, 04/21/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: Why is not more FreeBSD software written in C++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:49:29 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Whatever you may think, C and C++ are not defined by ANSI. I took contention with your notion that they didn't "care one whit" about ANSI, not that C/C++ are defined by ANSI. > And please get a proper MUA, so I don't have to fix your quoting when > replying. You're a big boy. Given that you care about this pedanticness, you can deal with it.