From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 19:16:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8963916A41F for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 19:16:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from non_secure@yahoo.com) Received: from web50901.mail.yahoo.com (web50901.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0812443D45 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 19:16:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from non_secure@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 47327 invoked by uid 60001); 20 May 2006 19:16:23 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RyPMahpQScpZdEIjqGMxYr2aZfkb8moNmi5jyQrd9Yb20RiAS0xQeJk7maPZsSKszfELRXc/6kpWlyLT9y9lNBOg6sUHsik6j0wZgp/u9p3gEh7h4lRnBpgUpOwq966QTijoBzTVlyNxUJfCtm/qSJU1jjvSyArs6LmfXPMrzes= ; Message-ID: <20060520191623.47325.qmail@web50901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.94.196.84] by web50901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 May 2006 12:16:23 PDT Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 12:16:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Arnaute To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: feature parity with linux ... perhaps with "filesystem quotas" ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:16:24 -0000 So I see this article on Slashdot: http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/13/0740227 and I notice that same article is referenced now on the front page of freebsd.org. Apparently FreeBSD developers are working on "approaching feature parity with Linux". Quick Question: Does this mean that we will have working filesystem quotas in FreeBSD in the next year or two ? I've been using the so-called "user and group quotas" on other operating systems for a long time, and I think they are very useful. Can I cast my vote for the inclusion of working "quotas" in FreeBSD sometime in the future? Yes, I realize that "gnome-integration" and "graphical installation mode" and designing new mascots are much more important, but ... you know ... filesystem quotas sure would be nice to have... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 19:25:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E5116A422 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 19:25:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from non_secure@yahoo.com) Received: from web50913.mail.yahoo.com (web50913.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E307743D46 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 19:25:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from non_secure@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 88789 invoked by uid 60001); 20 May 2006 19:25:46 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Opuh1u4DSci/cmgtYAeUUTpiEMXdrndTj2BpoQxxWanLtm59AqZ1zTOx/OVzQchcs43rrEQes7isemo+YTx7+xKS83dwuTL0lnQx1rhH8YuFfVKuegGmQXGiBTHO+DV5K/+IqjGSoIsu786TG7EZhgH/kib9n7cUSEkQ9lJLfnw= ; Message-ID: <20060520192546.88787.qmail@web50913.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.94.196.84] by web50913.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 May 2006 12:25:46 PDT Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 12:25:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Arnaute To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Stress testing the UFS2 filesystem X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:25:47 -0000 > The issue that he is testing is how well the filesystem behaves when > you arbitrarily damage it and then run fsck (ideally, fsck should > detect all of the damage and repair it). He seems to have found cases > where fsck does not detect and repair the damage, leading to panics at > runtime. Heh. You need to run a test to find out that bg fsck causes problems ? Here - I'll save you some time: if involves_snapshots_in_any_way then it's totally FUBAR fi Snapshots have _never_ been stable or suitable for production. Ever. (going on 2+ years now...) This wouldn't be such a problem, except that BG fsck, turned on by default, ensures that all users of FreeBSD, everywhere, are using snapshots, whether they understand what a bad idea that is or not. On the plus side, FreeBSD does have a nice new mascot - see it's more shiny now. See ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 19:38:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3D916A422 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 19:38:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from e-masson@kisoft-services.com) Received: from kraid.nerim.net (smtp-106-saturday.nerim.net [62.4.16.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0678143D49 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 19:38:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from e-masson@kisoft-services.com) Received: from srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com (kisoft.net1.nerim.net [62.212.107.51]) by kraid.nerim.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083C040E2D; Sat, 20 May 2006 21:38:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB178D501; Sat, 20 May 2006 21:38:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at interne.kisoft-services.com Received: from srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WtGdgwgp59+D; Sat, 20 May 2006 21:38:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: by srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2C8BED4FF; Sat, 20 May 2006 21:38:14 +0200 (CEST) To: Jason Arnaute From: Eric Masson In-Reply-To: <20060520192546.88787.qmail@web50913.mail.yahoo.com> (Jason Arnaute's message of "Sat, 20 May 2006 12:25:46 -0700 (PDT)") References: <20060520192546.88787.qmail@web50913.mail.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.5-PRERELEASE i386 Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 21:38:14 +0200 Message-ID: <86mzdccwrd.fsf@srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stress testing the UFS2 filesystem X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:38:07 -0000 Jason Arnaute writes: > On the plus side, FreeBSD does have a nice new mascot > - see it's more shiny now. See ? Where are your patches for fs issues ? -- RvA> Ce sont des andouilles, tout cela c'est de la NeuNeuKonomie Faut dire qu'on a de la chance : entre le beauf de Free, les moutons de Freesbee, les pieds d'Aol, les couilles à l'air de Lycos .... -+- BE in : ya une couille dans la start up -+- From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 20:13:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1C316A428 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 20:13:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D3143D46 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 20:13:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.14] (imini.samsco.home [192.168.254.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KKDRv1082468; Sat, 20 May 2006 14:13:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <446F7860.4060705@samsco.org> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:13:20 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050416 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Arnaute References: <20060520192546.88787.qmail@web50913.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060520192546.88787.qmail@web50913.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stress testing the UFS2 filesystem X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 20:13:36 -0000 Jason Arnaute wrote: >>The issue that he is testing is how well the > > filesystem behaves when > >>you arbitrarily damage it and then run fsck > > (ideally, fsck should > >>detect all of the damage and repair it). He seems > > to have found cases > >>where fsck does not detect and repair the damage, > > leading to panics at > >>runtime. > > > > Heh. You need to run a test to find out that bg fsck > causes problems ? Here - I'll save you some time: > > if involves_snapshots_in_any_way > then > it's totally FUBAR > fi > > Snapshots have _never_ been stable or suitable for > production. Ever. (going on 2+ years now...) > > This wouldn't be such a problem, except that BG fsck, > turned on by default, ensures that all users of > FreeBSD, everywhere, are using snapshots, whether they > understand what a bad idea that is or not. > > On the plus side, FreeBSD does have a nice new mascot > - see it's more shiny now. See ? > Yes, you have a point that snapshots have been broken in the past. A lot of work has been done recently to fix them, as well as quotas. Your trollish digs only disrespect all the work being done, and they are not welcome here. Scott From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 20:28:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109BF16A41F for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 20:28:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405D543D45 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 20:28:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.14] (imini.samsco.home [192.168.254.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KKGLhc082486; Sat, 20 May 2006 14:16:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <446F790D.2080804@samsco.org> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:16:13 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050416 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Masson References: <20060520192546.88787.qmail@web50913.mail.yahoo.com> <86mzdccwrd.fsf@srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com> In-Reply-To: <86mzdccwrd.fsf@srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Jason Arnaute Subject: Re: Stress testing the UFS2 filesystem X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 20:28:17 -0000 Eric Masson wrote: > Jason Arnaute writes: > > >>On the plus side, FreeBSD does have a nice new mascot >>- see it's more shiny now. See ? > > > Where are your patches for fs issues ? > As much as I hate dealing with trolls, their presence is actually a very good sign. Whenever a project has trolls, that means that it's popular enough to attract casual users. Some of those casual users contribute in productive ways, some don't, but either way they are showing the project attention. As the old saying goes, there is no such thing as bad PR, so long as they spell your name right. Scott From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 20:38:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A2C16A41F for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 20:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from non_secure@yahoo.com) Received: from web50909.mail.yahoo.com (web50909.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE1F043D46 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 20:38:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from non_secure@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 80732 invoked by uid 60001); 20 May 2006 20:38:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=51HQr8xXEODhBP8zHysCBZm2W+LO/PmOSlfEECabvyAswpv+UICGpY7STMTP/Z17fEVRTMqGGXIV19tFr0Mjv78YtdrKuHoKimkDhhiS+Tv25+y5tpKnfCyj4NLZXwwlA6a+PqoLPofGcMxweyfipunO39dpexvpY9Xz5ZUZGig= ; Message-ID: <20060520203851.80730.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.94.196.84] by web50909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 May 2006 13:38:51 PDT Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 13:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Arnaute To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <446F7860.4060705@samsco.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stress testing the UFS2 filesystem X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 20:38:52 -0000 --- Scott Long wrote: > Yes, you have a point that snapshots have been > broken in > the past. A lot of work has been done recently to > fix > them, as well as quotas. Your trollish digs only > disrespect > all the work being done, and they are not welcome > here. If I were complaining about some new feature, some advanced new addition to FreeBSD, then I would have no place here. Setbacks and failures are part of any project like this. No arguments there. But I am not complaining about some new feature, or some cutting edge addition. I am complaining that a bedrock function of the filesystem that has existed in UNIX and UNIX-like OS's for _decades_ now no longer functions in FreeBSD (quotas). I am complaining about default functionality (snapshots) that was forced down the throats of everyone (in the form of bg_fsck) over two years ago that has _never worked_, and that 90% of users have no idea of its presence or its ramifications. Go ask Joe sysadmin who just installed FreeBSD 6.1 as his companies mailserver if he realizes what will happen if he BG fscks a filesystem that has been filled to capacity. Oh, and yes, I do in fact have a patch for the quota issues - it's called FreeBSD 4.x. This ridicule is _well deserved_. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 20 21:48:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691D616A420 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 21:48:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BFB43D46 for ; Sat, 20 May 2006 21:48:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.14] (imini.samsco.home [192.168.254.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4KLmHqs082851; Sat, 20 May 2006 15:48:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <446F8E9A.804@samsco.org> Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 15:48:10 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050416 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Arnaute References: <20060520203851.80730.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060520203851.80730.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stress testing the UFS2 filesystem X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 21:48:27 -0000 Jason Arnaute wrote: > --- Scott Long wrote: > > >>Yes, you have a point that snapshots have been >>broken in >>the past. A lot of work has been done recently to >>fix >>them, as well as quotas. Your trollish digs only >>disrespect >>all the work being done, and they are not welcome >>here. > > > > If I were complaining about some new feature, some > advanced new addition to FreeBSD, then I would have no > place here. Setbacks and failures are part of any > project like this. No arguments there. > > But I am not complaining about some new feature, or > some cutting edge addition. I am complaining that a > bedrock function of the filesystem that has existed in > UNIX and UNIX-like OS's for _decades_ now no longer > functions in FreeBSD (quotas). I am complaining about > default functionality (snapshots) that was forced down > the throats of everyone (in the form of bg_fsck) over > two years ago that has _never worked_, and that 90% of > users have no idea of its presence or its > ramifications. > > Go ask Joe sysadmin who just installed FreeBSD 6.1 as > his companies mailserver if he realizes what will > happen if he BG fscks a filesystem that has been > filled to capacity. > > Oh, and yes, I do in fact have a patch for the quota > issues - it's called FreeBSD 4.x. > > This ridicule is _well deserved_. > # grep complain < rant.eml | wc -w 4 I think that your quota for complaining has been reached. Scott