From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 18 11:08:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C76A16A403 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:08:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7AC843D4C for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:08:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (linimon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8IB894Z040957 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:08:09 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from linimon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k8IB88dU040953 for freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:08:08 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:08:08 GMT Message-Id: <200609181108.k8IB88dU040953@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: linimon set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 11:08:10 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/73177 geom kldload geom_* causes panic due to memory exhaustion o kern/76538 geom [gbde] nfs-write on gbde partition stalls and continue o kern/84556 geom [geom] GBDE-encrypted swap causes panic at shutdown o kern/87544 geom [gbde] mmaping large files on a gbde filesystem deadlo o kern/89102 geom [geom_vfs] [panic] panic when forced unmount FS from u o bin/90093 geom fdisk(8) incapable of altering in-core geometry o kern/90582 geom [geom_mirror] [panic] Restore cause panic string (ffs_ o kern/95771 geom [geom] geom mirror provider destroyed (machine crashed o kern/98034 geom [geom] dereference of NULL pointer in acd_geom_detach o kern/99256 geom [geli] kernel panic/freeze with geli and ufs (maybe re 10 problems total. Non-critical problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o bin/78131 geom gbde "destroy" not working. o kern/79251 geom [2TB] newfs fails on 2.6TB gbde device o kern/94632 geom [geom] Kernel output resets input while GELI asks for 3 problems total. 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An engine ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C6DC8E.84120CC0-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 01:38:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E10816A40F; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:38:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE3743D45; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:38:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@hub.org) Received: from localhost (unknown [200.46.204.128]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CDA3A4663; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:38:16 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 96717-07; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ganymede.hub.org (blk-137-86-60.eastlink.ca [24.137.86.60]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0FF3A343D; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:36:57 -0300 (ADT) Received: by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1027) id 2BF5C5DEB3; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:37:19 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F1636C4B; Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:37:19 -0300 (ADT) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:37:19 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 01:38:34 -0000 'k, I'm used to vinum from back in 4.x days, but now running 6.x, am looking at using geom ... and am not sure exactly what I can do ... Pointers to tutorials always appreciated ... Basically, I have 5x72G drives ... I'd *love* to do RAID5 with them, but that doesn't appear to be available right now, so, figure I'll go with a RAID0+1 with hotspare configuration, if possible ... ? Now, trying to parse the geom man page(s), I'm not sure if the hotspare option is even ... an option ... if it is, please point me to where I should be looking for this ... So, again, if I'm reading through things correctly, I'll have to do something like: gstripe st1 da1 da2 gstripe st2 da3 da4 gmirror drive st1 st2 newfs drive is this correct, or am I *totally* missing something here? Thanks ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 02:32:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDC616A417 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:32:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: from sigma.octantis.com.au (ns2.octantis.com.au [207.44.189.124]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACC743D6E for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:32:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: (qmail 28598 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2006 12:31:59 +1000 Received: from 203-158-61-199.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO localhost) (203.158.61.199) by sigma.octantis.com.au with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 21 Sep 2006 12:31:59 +1000 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:31:55 +1000 From: Norberto Meijome To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060921123155.73a25912@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> References: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.4.0 (GTK+ 2.8.20; i386-portbld-freebsd6.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:32:01 -0000 On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:37:19 -0300 (ADT) "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > > 'k, I'm used to vinum from back in 4.x days, but now running 6.x, am > looking at using geom ... and am not sure exactly what I can do ... > > Pointers to tutorials always appreciated ... > > Basically, I have 5x72G drives ... I'd *love* to do RAID5 with them, but > that doesn't appear to be available right now, so, figure I'll go with a > RAID0+1 with hotspare configuration, if possible ... ? > > Now, trying to parse the geom man page(s), I'm not sure if the hotspare > option is even ... an option ... if it is, please point me to where I > should be looking for this ... > > So, again, if I'm reading through things correctly, I'll have to do > something like: > > gstripe st1 da1 da2 > gstripe st2 da3 da4 > gmirror drive st1 st2 > newfs drive > > is this correct, or am I *totally* missing something here? > Can you boot off a stripped set ? You can from a mirror (but make sure you have geom_mirror available at boot time... i've got it built into the kenrel..and loader.conf just in case I somehow manage to boot generic .... ) Other than that, it looks ok to me. you may want to read http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2006-January/021638.html best, _________________________ {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome "So limp of brain that for them to conceive an idea is to risk a haemorrhage. So limp of body that their purple dresses appear no more a dixative of housing nerves and sinews than when they hang suspended from their hooks" Mervin Peake, "Gormenghast", chap. 2, on the Earl's twin sisters I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet. Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been Warned. From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 05:38:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4610B16A403; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (ns0.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.187.76.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FAB43D45; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k8L5bwoI021315; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:37:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk from=m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk; sender-id=softfail; spf=softfail X-SenderID: Sendmail Sender-ID Filter v0.2.14 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk k8L5bwoI021315 Message-ID: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:37:53 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060915) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig815541DFFD9F3A837117C746" X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1]); Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:38:19 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.4/1914/Wed Sep 20 20:24:45 2006 on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DKIM_POLICY_TESTING,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.5 (2006-08-29) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig815541DFFD9F3A837117C746 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marc G. Fournier wrote: >=20 > So, again, if I'm reading through things correctly, I'll have to do > something like: >=20 > gstripe st1 da1 da2 > gstripe st2 da3 da4 > gmirror drive st1 st2 > newfs drive That's the wrong way round, I think. If you lose a drive, then you've the whole of one of your stripes and have no resilience. Shouldn't you rather stripe the mirrors: gmirror gm0 da1 da2 gmirror gm1 da3 da4 gstripe gs0 gm0 gm1 newfs gs0 This way if you lose a drive then only one of your gmirrors loses resilience and the other half of your disk space is unaffected. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW --------------enig815541DFFD9F3A837117C746 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFEiU28Mjk52CukIwRCMaVAKCExvTfu+j6iHUDO5i+Pc8B4EWKBwCffraJ q0mLUNyB9cEMLVN4w9Byt2E= =ZJmJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig815541DFFD9F3A837117C746-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 09:30:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DF316A415 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:30:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arne_woerner@yahoo.com) Received: from web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [209.191.69.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7A0D43D55 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:30:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from arne_woerner@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 57968 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Sep 2006 09:30:38 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=r+evmhTqqvvf/EfmQAhn9HHyTVaKfY+cvTyF8Us4Se+kbdTqGzbgdTzJ3qmsGbK4fSmn5n2S/Y380qDJKlJWhgZSPZzfTXsIRuV3Ev5YCEtHzHPIXg+/JXqG/bjHsNGnfQU291KC2bOSbqmgNnzjnNjwLORsZ1UYKccvmRNgp7I= ; Message-ID: <20060921093038.57966.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.54.71.203] by web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:30:37 PDT Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 02:30:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. B. Riddick" To: Matthew Seaman , "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:30:40 -0000 --- Matthew Seaman wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > So, again, if I'm reading through things correctly, I'll have to do > > something like: > > > > gstripe st1 da1 da2 > > gstripe st2 da3 da4 > > gmirror drive st1 st2 > > newfs drive > > That's the wrong way round, I think. If you lose a drive, then you've > the whole of one of your stripes and have no resilience. Shouldn't you > rather stripe the mirrors: > > gmirror gm0 da1 da2 > gmirror gm1 da3 da4 > gstripe gs0 gm0 gm1 > newfs gs0 > > This way if you lose a drive then only one of your gmirrors loses > resilience and the other half of your disk space is unaffected. > Yup! In the case M(S(a,b),S(c,d)) the content on 'a' and 'c' and on 'b' and 'd' would be identical, so that the u had to do it handish and efficient or automatically and inefficient in case of a disk failure. I personally put the boot-stuff on a gmirror (no striping). So u might want to use something like this: M(a1,c1) for / S(b1,d1) for /not-so-important S(M(a2,c2),M(b2,d2)) for /usr/home By the way: A correct syntax would be gmirror label -b load gm0 da1s1a da3s1a gmirror label -b load gm1 da1s2d da3s2d gmirror label -b load gm2 da2s2d da4s2d gstripe label -s 65536 gs0 da2s1d da4s1d gstripe label -s 65536 gs1 mirror/gm1 mirror/gm2 Oh! And I am experimenting with my geom_raid5 implementation... But it is quite slow in write to UFS (but non-concurrrent write to raw-device is quite fast already). U can download it here (but it is quite difficult to integrate - many files have to be changed handish): http://home.tiscali.de/cmdr_faako/geom_raid5.tbz :-) -A __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 09:49:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DA216A403 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:49:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2DA443D46 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:49:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GQLBd-0001yj-Uq for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:49:42 +0200 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:49:41 +0200 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:49:41 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:49:20 +0200 Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060625) In-Reply-To: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> Sender: news Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:49:58 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Basically, I have 5x72G drives ... I'd *love* to do RAID5 with them, but > that doesn't appear to be available right now Maybe you could try geom_raid3 instead? It's pretty nice, especially for databases. The only caveat is that you cannot boot off it if you use all the drives. Maybe raid3(3 drives for data)+mirror(2 disks for system) will be useful to you (since you can boot a mirrored drive). (note that geom_raid3 is not RAID3 as theoretically defined, but more like RAID4). From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 10:50:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8058216A403; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636EA43D76; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:50:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id ABD6745CD9; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:50:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (pjd.wheel.pl [10.0.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id F417A45696; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:49:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:49:34 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20060921104934.GB12198@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pvezYHf7grwyp3Bc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r804 (FreeBSD) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.9 required=3.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:50:11 -0000 --pvezYHf7grwyp3Bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 11:49:20AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: >=20 > >Basically, I have 5x72G drives ... I'd *love* to do RAID5 with them, but= that doesn't appear to be available right now >=20 > Maybe you could try geom_raid3 instead? It's pretty nice, especially for = databases. The only caveat is that you cannot boot off it if you use all th= e drives. Maybe raid3(3=20 > drives for data)+mirror(2 disks for system) will be useful to you (since = you can boot a mirrored drive). >=20 > (note that geom_raid3 is not RAID3 as theoretically defined, but more lik= e RAID4). This is RAID3, RAID4 is totally different. --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --pvezYHf7grwyp3Bc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFEm4+ForvXbEpPzQRAgStAJ9JhND2wmHiVOib2XcZkUhDugaqigCguGBv sj/5XLzvS6WppfUE8PWgnDw= =2ORy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pvezYHf7grwyp3Bc-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 13:48:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E07316A415 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:48:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elessar@bsdforen.de) Received: from fix.bsdforen.de (bsdforen.de [212.204.60.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59AD43D6B for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:48:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from elessar@bsdforen.de) Received: by fix.bsdforen.de (Postfix, from userid 20000) id 2CC4044A412; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:48:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.2]) by fix.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1A944A410; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:48:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdforen.de Received: from fix.bsdforen.de ([127.0.0.2]) by localhost (fix.bsdforen.de [127.0.0.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id u4nBhmy5af7E; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:48:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from loki.starkstrom.lan (p54A4603C.dip.t-dialin.net [84.164.96.60]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fix.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155C344A40D; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:47:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:47:58 +0200 From: Joerg Pernfuss To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060921154758.6d609b07@loki.starkstrom.lan> In-Reply-To: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> References: <20060920222944.M1031@ganymede.hub.org> <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.2.3 (GTK+ 2.8.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-DSPAM-Result: Whitelisted X-DSPAM-Processed: Thu Sep 21 15:48:02 2006 X-DSPAM-Confidence: 0.9988 X-DSPAM-Probability: 0.0000 X-DSPAM-Signature: 45129812886345369021049 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=DSPAM_MULTIPART_EX-88634 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:48:05 -0000 --DSPAM_MULTIPART_EX-88634 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Sig_bJCzycZOewlS1bzeFRk_pml; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 --Sig_bJCzycZOewlS1bzeFRk_pml Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:37:53 +0100 Matthew Seaman wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > So, again, if I'm reading through things correctly, I'll have to do > > something like: > >=20 > > gstripe st1 da1 da2 > > gstripe st2 da3 da4 > > gmirror drive st1 st2 > > newfs drive >=20 > That's the wrong way round, I think. Not exactly. This is RAID 0+1 (mirrored stripes) as he said. What you described is RAID10 (striped mirrors). And as you pointed out, if one has the choice, going with 10 is better for most cases, as the failure case behaviour is much better. It can have better performance in some cases though - at the cost of reliability. J=F6rg --=20 | /"\ ASCII ribbon | GnuPG Key ID | e86d b753 3deb e749 6c3a | | \ / campaign against | 0xbbcaad24 | 5706 1f7d 6cfd bbca ad24 | | X HTML in email | .the next sentence is true. | | / \ and news | .the previous sentence was a lie. | --Sig_bJCzycZOewlS1bzeFRk_pml Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFEpgOH31s/bvKrSQRApejAJ9bXykkHV48AzYzPV86N9tSwpA2QgCeJpr2 NVCmT1tJuLIgGg6hHwM9adw= =5Bg8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_bJCzycZOewlS1bzeFRk_pml-- --DSPAM_MULTIPART_EX-88634 Content-Type: text/plain X-DSPAM-Signature: 45129812886345369021049 !DSPAM:45129812886345369021049! --DSPAM_MULTIPART_EX-88634-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 20:09:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187C516A412 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:09:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (megan.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26E5043D45 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:09:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 14313 invoked by uid 2001); 21 Sep 2006 20:09:09 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:09:09 -0500 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> References: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> <20060921093038.57966.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060921093038.57966.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:09:12 -0000 On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 02:30:37AM -0700, R. B. Riddick wrote: > > Oh! And I am experimenting with my geom_raid5 implementation... But it is quite > slow in write to UFS (but non-concurrrent write to raw-device is quite fast > already). U can download it here (but it is quite difficult to integrate - many > files have to be changed handish): > http://home.tiscali.de/cmdr_faako/geom_raid5.tbz Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? Just because it was totally broken in 6.0 and 5.5.. What are data centers using? I can't imagine they're all doing gmirror and gstripe combinations.. gvinum gives you true volume management, e.g. it's easier to wipe a mirrored "volume" and make it raid5 or vice-versa. It is useful to have concat + stripe + mirror + raid5 volumes managed together. Recently I get the feeling that nobody cares about g/vinum anymore. I'm all for different ways of doing the same thing, but please don't drop gvinum! I certainly don't want to suffer through another bumpy transition, like 5.4 --> 6.1 was.. Since I'm on my pro-vinum rant: People already have terabytes of data stored in vinum-managed volumes. Forcing everybody to move things into the new geom containers won't make legacy users very happy. I believe there are many 4.11 users who are waiting for gvinum to become as stable as vinum used to be. -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 20:27:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937F216A407 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:27:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@gaiahost.coop) Received: from biodiesel.gaiahost.coop (biodiesel.gaiahost.coop [64.95.78.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0D143D53 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:27:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@gaiahost.coop) Received: from gaiahost.coop (host-64-65-195-19.spr.choiceone.net [::ffff:64.65.195.19]) (AUTH: LOGIN mark@hubcapconsulting.com) by biodiesel.gaiahost.coop with esmtp; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:27:04 -0400 id 00370058.4512F599.00000EE3 Received: by gaiahost.coop (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:27:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:27:13 -0400 From: Mark Bucciarelli To: "Rick C. Petty" Message-ID: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> Mail-Followup-To: "Rick C. Petty" , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:27:07 -0000 On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:09:09PM -0500, Rick C. Petty wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 02:30:37AM -0700, R. B. Riddick wrote: > > > > Oh! And I am experimenting with my geom_raid5 implementation... But it is quite > > slow in write to UFS (but non-concurrrent write to raw-device is quite fast > > already). U can download it here (but it is quite difficult to integrate - many > > files have to be changed handish): > > http://home.tiscali.de/cmdr_faako/geom_raid5.tbz > > Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? Just because it was > totally broken in 6.0 and 5.5.. I'd like to use gvinum. Are you using it in production? 6.1? How did you set up your root partition? Swap (in particular, for handling core dumps). How did you test it? My choice is either gvinum or NetBSD Raidframe. I'd much prefer the FreeBSD route. m From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 20:48:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272DB16A416 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:48:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from mh2.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDAC343D78 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:48:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from [10.177.171.220] (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by mh2.centtech.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k8LKmZeo097891; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:48:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <4512FAAF.9030408@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:48:47 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rick C. Petty" , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org References: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> In-Reply-To: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1920/Thu Sep 21 14:23:24 2006 on mh2.centtech.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:48:40 -0000 On 09/21/06 15:27, Mark Bucciarelli wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:09:09PM -0500, Rick C. Petty wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 02:30:37AM -0700, R. B. Riddick wrote: >>> Oh! And I am experimenting with my geom_raid5 implementation... But it is quite >>> slow in write to UFS (but non-concurrrent write to raw-device is quite fast >>> already). U can download it here (but it is quite difficult to integrate - many >>> files have to be changed handish): >>> http://home.tiscali.de/cmdr_faako/geom_raid5.tbz >> Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? Just because it was >> totally broken in 6.0 and 5.5.. > > I'd like to use gvinum. Are you using it in production? 6.1? > > How did you set up your root partition? Swap (in particular, for > handling core dumps). > > How did you test it? > > My choice is either gvinum or NetBSD Raidframe. I'd much prefer > the FreeBSD route. I think a large number of people in datacenters are using hardware RAID these days, and if they don't need that, then the simplicity of the graid3/gmirror/gstripe tools covers it. gvinum isn't as easy to use, and there's been reports of problems with it, so people who use it in datacenters will find something that at least *appears* more stable. I've found gmirror and gstripe to be fantastically stable. So stable, I never needed gvinum - but then I use hardware RAID for anything other than striping and mirroring. There is at least one person currently working on gvinum to make it a very nice offering. Search this list and you'll find him recently posting about it. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Anything that works is better than anything that doesn't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 21:23:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD9716A407 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (megan.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9273343D45 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:23:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 15663 invoked by uid 2001); 21 Sep 2006 21:23:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:23:35 -0500 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: Mark Bucciarelli Message-ID: <20060921212335.GA15490@megan.kiwi-computer.com> References: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:23:37 -0000 On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 04:27:13PM -0400, Mark Bucciarelli wrote: > > I'd like to use gvinum. Are you using it in production? 6.1? Yes and 6.0 actually. Next power outtage, I'll be moving to 6.1-stable. > How did you set up your root partition? Swap (in particular, for > handling core dumps). I have the root/swap on a separate disk, but at work we followed this procedure: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/vinum-root.html > How did you test it? Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. vinum worked really well, but AFAIK gvinum doesn't handle failures really well. Until this is fixed, I'd recommend keeping root/swap on a separate disk. > My choice is either gvinum or NetBSD Raidframe. I'd much prefer > the FreeBSD route. Same here. If Linux wasn't so frustrating to use/admin, I'd be tempted to switch to lvm. Maybe it's time to look at NetBSD again. -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 22:11:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E26116A40F for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (megan.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0AC943D6B for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:11:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 16556 invoked by uid 2001); 21 Sep 2006 22:11:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:11:55 -0500 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: Eric Anderson Message-ID: <20060921221155.GB15490@megan.kiwi-computer.com> References: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> <4512FAAF.9030408@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4512FAAF.9030408@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:11:58 -0000 On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:48:47PM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > > I think a large number of people in datacenters are using hardware RAID > these days, and if they don't need that, then the simplicity of the Really? I thought hardware RAID was slower (due to small block sizes and lack of large caching mechanisms) although easier to admin. Still, I used to hear a lot of people using vinum on 4.11 in data centers. In fact most of the BSD hosting sites I hear about all use 4.11 and jails. > graid3/gmirror/gstripe tools covers it. gvinum isn't as easy to use, I wouldn't say that at all! It's one program to learn, not many. Particularly if you like to divide your data between raid5 and mirror, etc. it's easier to use vinum. > and there's been reports of problems with it, so people who use it in > datacenters will find something that at least *appears* more stable. I haven't tested graid3 or graid5-- how well do they handle a drive which gets dropped? Also, the last I checked (6.0-R, 5.5-R, and 6.1-R) none of the geom layers seemed to allow live changes to the containers (i.e. when the filesystem is mounted). Has this been fixed? Certainly, I've added and removed live volumes under gvinum just fine. > I've found gmirror and gstripe to be fantastically stable. So stable, I > never needed gvinum - but then I use hardware RAID for anything other > than striping and mirroring. Don't get me wrong-- I love gmirror and use it on almost all my root/swap volumes. My preliminary testing showed gvinum to be significantly faster than gmirror for certain activities. Not everyone needs g/vinum, but I've found it a lot easier to configure and use than the alternatives. Plus you get labelling for free. > There is at least one person currently working on gvinum to make it a > very nice offering. Search this list and you'll find him recently > posting about it. Yes, I'm well aware of Ulf's progress and Greg Lehey's continued dedication to the project. I'm also watching all the CVS commits when I can. What I was saying in my previous message is that I have the feeling that aside from the select few who are working on gvinum and the many not-so-outspoken people who rely on g/vinum on their production servers, no one else seems to care whether gvinum succeeds or disappears. I'm saying that I care and I appreciate the efforts of these busy developers! -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 22:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE2916A407 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:31:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (megan.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A30143D53 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:31:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 16556 invoked by uid 2001); 21 Sep 2006 22:11:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:11:55 -0500 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: Eric Anderson Message-ID: <20060921221155.GB15490@megan.kiwi-computer.com> References: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> <4512FAAF.9030408@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4512FAAF.9030408@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:31:56 -0000 On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:48:47PM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > > I think a large number of people in datacenters are using hardware RAID > these days, and if they don't need that, then the simplicity of the Really? I thought hardware RAID was slower (due to small block sizes and lack of large caching mechanisms) although easier to admin. Still, I used to hear a lot of people using vinum on 4.11 in data centers. In fact most of the BSD hosting sites I hear about all use 4.11 and jails. > graid3/gmirror/gstripe tools covers it. gvinum isn't as easy to use, I wouldn't say that at all! It's one program to learn, not many. Particularly if you like to divide your data between raid5 and mirror, etc. it's easier to use vinum. > and there's been reports of problems with it, so people who use it in > datacenters will find something that at least *appears* more stable. I haven't tested graid3 or graid5-- how well do they handle a drive which gets dropped? Also, the last I checked (6.0-R, 5.5-R, and 6.1-R) none of the geom layers seemed to allow live changes to the containers (i.e. when the filesystem is mounted). Has this been fixed? Certainly, I've added and removed live volumes under gvinum just fine. > I've found gmirror and gstripe to be fantastically stable. So stable, I > never needed gvinum - but then I use hardware RAID for anything other > than striping and mirroring. Don't get me wrong-- I love gmirror and use it on almost all my root/swap volumes. My preliminary testing showed gvinum to be significantly faster than gmirror for certain activities. Not everyone needs g/vinum, but I've found it a lot easier to configure and use than the alternatives. Plus you get labelling for free. > There is at least one person currently working on gvinum to make it a > very nice offering. Search this list and you'll find him recently > posting about it. Yes, I'm well aware of Ulf's progress and Greg Lehey's continued dedication to the project. I'm also watching all the CVS commits when I can. What I was saying in my previous message is that I have the feeling that aside from the select few who are working on gvinum and the many not-so-outspoken people who rely on g/vinum on their production servers, no one else seems to care whether gvinum succeeds or disappears. I'm saying that I care and I appreciate the efforts of these busy developers! -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 21 22:46:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B838E16A40F for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:46:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DCB43D49 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:46:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id AFF6645B26; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:46:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dlw253.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.24.52.253]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C15645681; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:46:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:46:20 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: "Rick C. Petty" Message-ID: <20060921224619.GA14769@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <20060921202713.GE3144@rabbit> <4512FAAF.9030408@centtech.com> <20060921221155.GB15490@megan.kiwi-computer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060921221155.GB15490@megan.kiwi-computer.com> X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r804 (FreeBSD) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:46:54 -0000 --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 05:11:55PM -0500, Rick C. Petty wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:48:47PM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > > graid3/gmirror/gstripe tools covers it. gvinum isn't as easy to use,= =20 >=20 > I wouldn't say that at all! It's one program to learn, not many. The syntax of all geom(8) programs is the same. And actually most of the GEOM classes (gconcat, geli, gjournal, glabel, gmirror, gnop, graid3, gshsec and gstripe) are controlled by one program - geom(8), eg. # geom disk list # geom mirror label foo0 da0 da1 # geom mirror label foo1 da2 da3 # geom stripe label foo mirror/foo0 mirror/foo1 # geom raid3 label bar da4 da5 da6 # geom concat label baz stripe/foo raid3/bar # geom eli label concat/baz # geom eli attach concat/baz # geom journal label concat/baz.eli # geom label label complex concat/baz.eli.journal # newfs -J /dev/label/complex > > I've found gmirror and gstripe to be fantastically stable. So stable, = I=20 > > never needed gvinum - but then I use hardware RAID for anything other= =20 > > than striping and mirroring. >=20 > Don't get me wrong-- I love gmirror and use it on almost all my root/swap > volumes. My preliminary testing showed gvinum to be significantly faster > than gmirror for certain activities. If you are talking about mirror in gvinum versus gmirror, I'd like to know the details. BTW. The volume manager from ZFS works already just fine, ie. one can configure UFS on top of RAID-Z for example, but I'm not going to bring it in before the entire port is ready. --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFExY7ForvXbEpPzQRAjx1AKD6JuJcSAG0UGdY2CjfpPZzBUqfxACg53b7 n94jc3GTZbvyvXarY7BYvzw= =8RlN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 07:44:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D670716A403 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:44:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lulf@stud.ntnu.no) Received: from merke.itea.ntnu.no (merke.itea.ntnu.no [129.241.7.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300B343D7B for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:44:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lulf@stud.ntnu.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by merke.itea.ntnu.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BFA13C61B for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:44:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gaupe.stud.ntnu.no (gaupe.stud.ntnu.no [129.241.56.184]) by merke.itea.ntnu.no (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:44:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: by gaupe.stud.ntnu.no (Postfix, from userid 2312) id 7B88DD000C; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:44:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:44:28 +0200 From: Ulf Lilleengen To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060922074428.GA1847@stud.ntnu.no> References: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> <20060921093038.57966.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Content-Scanned: with sophos and spamassassin at mailgw.ntnu.no. Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:44:25 -0000 On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:09:09PM -0500, Rick C. Petty wrote: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 02:30:37AM -0700, R. B. Riddick wrote: > > Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? Just because it was totally broken > in 6.0 and 5.5.. > > What are data centers using? I can't imagine they're all doing gmirror and > gstripe combinations.. gvinum gives you true volume management, e.g. it's > easier to wipe a mirrored "volume" and make it raid5 or vice-versa. It is > useful to have concat + stripe + mirror + raid5 volumes managed together. > > Recently I get the feeling that nobody cares about g/vinum anymore. I'm > all for different ways of doing the same thing, but please don't drop > gvinum! I certainly don't want to suffer through another bumpy transition, > like 5.4 --> 6.1 was.. > > Since I'm on my pro-vinum rant: People already have terabytes of data > stored in vinum-managed volumes. Forcing everybody to move things into the > new geom containers won't make legacy users very happy. I believe there > are many 4.11 users who are waiting for gvinum to become as stable as vinum > used to be. Well, I can assure you that you're not alone :) I'm dedicating much of my left-over time to work on gvinum, and you can see some of what I've been working on in the last status report. Some of this will hopefully come into CURRENT soon as Greg Lehey have had the time too review some patches. I'm almost done with the concat command too, but everytime I'm working on gvinum i bump into many things that could have been done better in terms of abstraction. More on this can be found here: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2006-August/005592.html As mentioned later in that post, a new type of volume manager should be designed to replace gvinum in the future. But it's still important to improve gvinum because of that fact that many still uses it. -- Ulf Lilleengen From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 07:47:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA36A16A407 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:47:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lulf@stud.ntnu.no) Received: from signal.itea.ntnu.no (signal.itea.ntnu.no [129.241.190.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C166F43D78 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:47:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lulf@stud.ntnu.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by signal.itea.ntnu.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D8F33DEF for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:47:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gaupe.stud.ntnu.no (gaupe.stud.ntnu.no [129.241.56.184]) by signal.itea.ntnu.no (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:47:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by gaupe.stud.ntnu.no (Postfix, from userid 2312) id D8CA3D000C; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:47:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:47:38 +0200 From: Ulf Lilleengen To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060922074738.GB1847@stud.ntnu.no> References: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> <20060921093038.57966.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> <20060922074428.GA1847@stud.ntnu.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060922074428.GA1847@stud.ntnu.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Content-Scanned: with sophos and spamassassin at mailgw.ntnu.no. Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:47:45 -0000 On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 09:44:28AM +0200, Ulf Lilleengen wrote: > Well, I can assure you that you're not alone :) I'm dedicating much of my > left-over time to work on gvinum, and you can see some of what I've been working > on in the last status report. Some of this will hopefully come into CURRENT soon > as Greg Lehey have had the time too review some patches. I'm almost done with > the concat command too, but everytime I'm working on gvinum i bump into many > things that could have been done better in terms of abstraction. > > More on this can be found here: > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2006-August/005592.html > > As mentioned later in that post, a new type of volume manager should be designed > to replace gvinum in the future. But it's still important to improve gvinum > because of that fact that many still uses it. I'm sorry I didn't see any subsequent replies in my mutt so i thought no one hat answered. Clearly I was wrong :) -- Ulf Lilleengen From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 08:54:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9338516A416 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:54:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151F543D6D for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:54:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GQgnZ-0003eH-Ir for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:54:17 +0200 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:54:17 +0200 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:54:17 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:53:52 +0200 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <45122531.6010503@infracaninophile.co.uk> <20060921093038.57966.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060625) In-Reply-To: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> Sender: news Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:54:23 -0000 Rick C. Petty wrote: > What are data centers using? I can't imagine they're all doing gmirror and > gstripe combinations.. gvinum gives you true volume management, e.g. it's > easier to wipe a mirrored "volume" and make it raid5 or vice-versa. It is > useful to have concat + stripe + mirror + raid5 volumes managed together. Well, in "defence" of g* tools on this particular point, they are actually convenience links to "geom" executable. Instead of "gmirror label ..." you can just as well use "geom mirror label ..." which is, as far as I can tell from vinum's man page, pretty similar to it. My way of thinking about GEOM classes is that they are (when used together) almost the same as one big volume manager (like vinum), only split ("refactored") into separate kernel modules and userland libraries. From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 09:14:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AC616A47B for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:14:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FDE43D7D for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:14:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (uhktgb@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8M9E2GR077567; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:14:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k8M9E1h8077566; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:14:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:14:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200609220914.k8M9E1h8077566@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG, rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com In-Reply-To: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-geom User-Agent: tin/1.8.0-20051224 ("Ronay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:14:07 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG, rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:14:17 -0000 Rick C. Petty wrote: > Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? I _try_ to forget it. :-) Seriously, we've been running vinum with FreeBSD 4.x for six years. When upgrading to 6.x (skipping 5.x entirely), we changed to gmirror, and my impression is that it is much better and easier to manage. I really like it. Once you're familiar with the GEOM concepts, vinum seems to be an unnecessarily complex and inflexible beast. That's just my personal opinion, of course, YMMV. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 13:39:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EE916A412 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:39:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (megan.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7178E43D4C for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:39:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 31930 invoked by uid 2001); 22 Sep 2006 13:39:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:39:00 -0500 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20060922133900.GA31626@megan.kiwi-computer.com> References: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> <200609220914.k8M9E1h8077566@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200609220914.k8M9E1h8077566@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:39:02 -0000 On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Rick C. Petty wrote: > > Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? > > I _try_ to forget it. :-) Exactly the type of attitude I predicted. So let's force everybody who has terabytes in vinum-managed containers to migrate! I mean, who *doesn't* have a few extra TB of disk space available to aid with that migration? > Seriously, we've been running vinum with FreeBSD 4.x for > six years. When upgrading to 6.x (skipping 5.x entirely), > we changed to gmirror, and my impression is that it is > much better and easier to manage. I really like it. Once I wouldn't say it's at all better, although it was easier to setup just a mirror. Vinum is a volume manager, so I expect it to be more complex than just setting up a mirror. But I certainly wouldn't call it better. My mirror rebuilds *every* power outtage (and sometimes even at expected shutdowns), a behavior I have not witnessed with gvinum. I have yet to see anyone address the inability to change your geom containers when dealing with live filesystems. Until this is "fixed", comparing gvinum to other geom classes is apples to oranges. If you haven't yet been bitten by this problem, then it's no wonder you really like it. > you're familiar with the GEOM concepts, vinum seems to be > an unnecessarily complex and inflexible beast. > > That's just my personal opinion, of course, YMMV. I am quite familiar with GEOM and I was sad the day vinum was dropped and gvinum wasn't even close to par with it. It has since improved. I wouldn't say it's unnecessarily complex or at all inflexible, maybe you're just not used to managing lots of large volumes? I agree that geom is more flexible, and once all the bugs are worked out of all the layers, maybe someone will write "fvm" to make managing the volumes easier. I like g/vinum's ability to edit the entire infrastructure from a single configuration file. Having to repeatedly type a hundred geom commands sounds like room for human error. Your opinion noted and ignored. I'm glad others agree with g/vinum's importance, or all the poor admins with vinum-managed volumes would be left out in the cold. -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 14:09:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5411616A40F; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:09:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@gaiahost.coop) Received: from biodiesel.gaiahost.coop (biodiesel.gaiahost.coop [64.95.78.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC80443D5D; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:09:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@gaiahost.coop) Received: from gaiahost.coop (dialup-4.154.204.146.Dial1.Boston1.Level3.net [::ffff:4.154.204.146]) (AUTH: LOGIN mark@hubcapconsulting.com) by biodiesel.gaiahost.coop with esmtp; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:09:05 -0400 id 007A018C.4513EE82.000010EA Received: by gaiahost.coop (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:09:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:09:03 -0400 From: Mark Bucciarelli To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek Message-ID: <20060922140903.GH3144@rabbit> Mail-Followup-To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek , "Rick C. Petty" , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: "Rick C. Petty" , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: ZFS [was: geom - help ...] X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:09:09 -0000 On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 12:46:20AM +0200, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > BTW. The volume manager from ZFS works already just fine, ie. > one can configure UFS on top of RAID-Z for example, but I'm not > going to bring it in before the entire port is ready. I read about ZFS on wikipedia, this looks very good. I would like to try and help with testing. I have a box with six drive bays and a bunch of SCSI drives at my disposal in my office. Anything in particular you would like tested? I assume steps are something like: - install -CURRENT with debug kernel - (maybe??) pull code from your perforce branch - define slices as geom providers - put RAID-Z on top - try to break it: * run postmark from a number of consoles * remove drive, make sure array functions, then put back in and make sure array rebuilds properly * generate scsi disk errors somehow? * add a disk to increase capacity (if ZFS supports this) I've not yet run -CURRENT so this is new territory for me. Any general guidelines would be welcome. Also, is this the right list for this? m From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 14:33:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD8616A412 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from mh2.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20FFE43D45 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:33:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from [10.177.171.220] (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by mh2.centtech.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k8MEXJVs071636; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:33:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <4513F42F.1000308@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:33:19 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com References: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> <200609220914.k8M9E1h8077566@lurza.secnetix.de> <20060922133900.GA31626@megan.kiwi-computer.com> In-Reply-To: <20060922133900.GA31626@megan.kiwi-computer.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1927/Fri Sep 22 05:06:31 2006 on mh2.centtech.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:33:22 -0000 Rick C. Petty wrote: > On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > >> Rick C. Petty wrote: >> > Is everybody forgetting about gvinum? >> >> I _try_ to forget it. :-) >> > > Exactly the type of attitude I predicted. So let's force everybody who > has terabytes in vinum-managed containers to migrate! I mean, who > *doesn't* have a few extra TB of disk space available to aid with that > migration? > While I enjoy the sarcasm as much as anyone, I don't think that's the case. gvinum is being actively worked on, and g* tools are being added, both happening in parallel. I don't think anyone who is a core member or otherwise responsible for gvinum or GEOM has said that it's going away, but I might have missed it. Keep in mind that those who have been bit by gvinum (no matter how long ago) may still have a bad taste in their mouths, and may be nervous to try it again, so they stick with what works. Also, for many people, the g* tools are simpler, if they just want to do a quick simple mirror (for instance). I personally like a full blown volume manager, and gvinum is the closest we have. It needs some work to be really good. To me, gvinum is a different tool for different class of job than the g* tools. They overlap quite a bit, but they still fill different needs. >> Seriously, we've been running vinum with FreeBSD 4.x for >> six years. When upgrading to 6.x (skipping 5.x entirely), >> we changed to gmirror, and my impression is that it is >> much better and easier to manage. I really like it. Once >> > > I wouldn't say it's at all better, although it was easier to setup just a > mirror. Vinum is a volume manager, so I expect it to be more complex than > just setting up a mirror. But I certainly wouldn't call it better. My > mirror rebuilds *every* power outtage (and sometimes even at expected > shutdowns), a behavior I have not witnessed with gvinum. > It's different - and simplicity is worth something to some people. The mirror rebuilding issue is I believe fixed now - Pawel can comment on that better though. Did you submit a bug report for that? > I have yet to see anyone address the inability to change your geom > containers when dealing with live filesystems. Until this is "fixed", > comparing gvinum to other geom classes is apples to oranges. If you > haven't yet been bitten by this problem, then it's no wonder you really > like it. > Agreed, but that may not be a requirement for those who use the g* tools. >> you're familiar with the GEOM concepts, vinum seems to be >> an unnecessarily complex and inflexible beast. >> >> That's just my personal opinion, of course, YMMV. >> > > I am quite familiar with GEOM and I was sad the day vinum was dropped and > gvinum wasn't even close to par with it. It has since improved. I > wouldn't say it's unnecessarily complex or at all inflexible, maybe > you're just not used to managing lots of large volumes? > > I agree that geom is more flexible, and once all the bugs are worked out of > all the layers, maybe someone will write "fvm" to make managing the volumes > easier. I like g/vinum's ability to edit the entire infrastructure from a > single configuration file. Having to repeatedly type a hundred geom > commands sounds like room for human error. > > Your opinion noted and ignored. I'm glad others agree with g/vinum's > importance, or all the poor admins with vinum-managed volumes would be left What I'd like to see personally, is an 'fvm' that uses the same tools or functions as the g* tools, but has the volume management of gvinum, so you can use the fvm to manage the entire view of all volumes, but you could also use gmirror to do the regular gmirror stuff like normal, without breaking things in the fvm. This way, you could take a gmirrored volume, and import it into fvm, and then add a hot spare, etc. I say, if you have an itch, try to scratch it - what I mean is, if it's something you feel passionately about, then either help support it with code, docs, bug reports, etc, or write something better. If you can't code, then start getting the docs and structure written down, and get developers to look at it. If it's well thought out, then you can probably find somebody to help you code it up. Eric From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 14:56:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA6E16A403 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:56:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (megan.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D8EB43D77 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:55:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 33212 invoked by uid 2001); 22 Sep 2006 14:55:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 09:55:58 -0500 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060922145558.GA32724@megan.kiwi-computer.com> References: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> <200609220914.k8M9E1h8077566@lurza.secnetix.de> <20060922133900.GA31626@megan.kiwi-computer.com> <4513F42F.1000308@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4513F42F.1000308@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:56:00 -0000 On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 09:33:19AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > > I personally like > a full blown volume manager, and gvinum is the closest we have. It > needs some work to be really good. To me, gvinum is a different tool > for different class of job than the g* tools. They overlap quite a bit, > but they still fill different needs. I completely agree with you. > It's different - and simplicity is worth something to some people. The > mirror rebuilding issue is I believe fixed now - Pawel can comment on > that better though. Did you submit a bug report for that? I find it difficult to submit PRs for errors I find in production systems. I don't always have the time to locate the culprit, and I haven't been using gmirror on non-production systems (for obvious reasons). I'm setting up a test box for stuff like this so I can report gvinum and gmirror problems if I notice them on my production boxes. > What I'd like to see personally, is an 'fvm' that uses the same tools or > functions as the g* tools, but has the volume management of gvinum, so > you can use the fvm to manage the entire view of all volumes, but you > could also use gmirror to do the regular gmirror stuff like normal, > without breaking things in the fvm. This way, you could take a > gmirrored volume, and import it into fvm, and then add a hot spare, etc. I'd love to see that too! Then I can scoff at my Linux friends :-P > I say, if you have an itch, try to scratch it - what I mean is, if it's > something you feel passionately about, then either help support it with > code, docs, bug reports, etc, or write something better. If you can't > code, then start getting the docs and structure written down, and get > developers to look at it. If it's well thought out, then you can > probably find somebody to help you code it up. It's always a matter of having enough time. It's a catch 22-- if you have a bit of extra time and run into a panic, you may use up that time just recovering the system. If the problem doesn't hit you, there's nothing to spend your time on :-P But your point is noted-- that's why I'm setting up a test bed now, with a debug kernel so I can find the bad code and fix it myself. Instead of using my time to complain, I'll try to spend what little I have to diagnose the problem(s). I'm still a little upset with the vinum to gvinum breakage but I can't imagine life without gvinum. -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 22 18:39:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BD116A40F for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7404143D72 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:39:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id DE3C648801; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:39:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dlw253.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.24.52.253]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED69345B26; Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:39:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:38:41 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: "Rick C. Petty" Message-ID: <20060922183841.GA22578@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <20060921200909.GA13927@megan.kiwi-computer.com> <200609220914.k8M9E1h8077566@lurza.secnetix.de> <20060922133900.GA31626@megan.kiwi-computer.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060922133900.GA31626@megan.kiwi-computer.com> X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r804 (FreeBSD) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: geom - help ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:39:14 -0000 --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 08:39:00AM -0500, Rick C. Petty wrote: > I wouldn't say it's at all better, although it was easier to setup just a > mirror. Vinum is a volume manager, so I expect it to be more complex than > just setting up a mirror. But I certainly wouldn't call it better. My > mirror rebuilds *every* power outtage (and sometimes even at expected > shutdowns), a behavior I have not witnessed with gvinum. If gvinum doesn't rebuild mirrors after power failures when the device is open for writting, then it is a bug in gvinum. A reliable RAID system has to do it. Imagine a simple situation when write request is only stored on one component and a power failure prevents it to be stored on the rest of components. How can you be sure that the data is in a consistent state? There should be no rebuilds after clean shutdowns, if there are, please give me the details, because this is the first time I hear about it. For gmirror, even if device is open for write, one can define idle time after which device will be marked as clean. So after few seconds without writes, even on power failure no rebuild is needed. I've a code in perforce to avoid rebuilds even after a power failure, which can be used when gjournal is running on top of gmirror. For such configuration it is reliable. --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFFC2xForvXbEpPzQRAvTvAKCpywUePrHoSapD0KsBQ/1CaCTwVgCgvtsm PQ8XAe82rUPYB7w9ovAdVm0= =B4aI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB--