From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 06:31:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B1B16A4DA for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vlado@botka.homeunix.org) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out4.iol.cz [194.228.2.92]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EB343D66 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 06:31:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vlado@botka.homeunix.org) Received: from antivir4.iol.cz (avir4 [192.168.30.209]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FC71F8FEC; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir4.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5760240034; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out-4.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.31]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35694240032; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ace.botka.homeunix.org (3.77.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.77.3]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BD722AEB4; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ace.botka.homeunix.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 05DE1BB; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on ace.botka.homeunix.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Received: from srv (ac.botka.homeunix.org [192.168.1.5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ace.botka.homeunix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28BEBA; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:31:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Vladimir Botka X-X-Sender: vlado@srv.g1.netng.org To: James Mansion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060806081824.M65597@srv.g1.netng.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 06:31:38 -0000 Hello, here are some links: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network-diskless.html http://www.the-labs.com/FreeBSD/Diskless/ /usr/share/doc/en/articles/diskless-x/ man diskless I think rc.diskless2 (and rc.diskless1 ) is 5.X related. I am using diskless workstations since 4.9 . IMHO it never worked without profound rc understanding and customizing. Relax it will take time. Just consider the documentation as an hint. Cheers, -vlado On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, James Mansion wrote: > I have a 6.1 install on my mini-ITX system. I'd like to experiment with > readonly root. > > Searching for documentation I found 'FreeBSD and Solid State Devices' but it > refers to rc.diskless2 - which I don't seem to have. I do have an > rc.initdiskless. > > Is there any current documentation? > > James > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-small@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-small > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-small-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 14:42:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0809F16A4DE for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:42:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C5543D45 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:42:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1G9jq4-000Ipc-5u; Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:42:49 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:43:38 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Vladimir Botka" Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:43:36 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20060806081824.M65597@srv.g1.netng.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:42:51 -0000 Thanks Vlidimir. > I think rc.diskless2 (and rc.diskless1 ) is 5.X related. I have to say, one of the things one hears about FreeBSD by proponents is that the quality of documentation is supposed to be better than linux. But it is depressing that when you read the documentation, you then have to try and work out whether it applies to 4.x, 5.x or is actually in any way related to current 6.x systems. I have a diskless unionfs-based setup for Linux, but I was hoping to try FreeBSd precisely so I could use a supported setup. I've seen all those links before and none of them focus on a compact-flash install, nearly all of it relates to the dhcp/bootp/nfs stuff. :-( James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 15:45:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A3716A4DA for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:45:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72BA43D5D for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:45:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E3AE5326E; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:45:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:45:21 -0500 To: James Mansion Message-ID: <20060806154521.GA21656@soaustin.net> References: <20060806081824.M65597@srv.g1.netng.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 15:45:23 -0000 On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 03:43:36PM +0100, James Mansion wrote: > I've seen all those links before and none of them focus on > a compact-flash install, nearly all of it relates to the > dhcp/bootp/nfs stuff. :-( FreeBSD is a Work In Progress. When you find missing or broken documentation, please write it up and send-pr(1). Thanks. mcl From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 19:03:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A06416A4E1 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:03:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F3743D46 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:03:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1G9num-000FTy-5v; Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:03:57 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:50:12 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Roger Miranda \(Digital Relay\)" , Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:50:10 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200608040821.54035.rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Subject: RE: Boot Time with Nanobsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:03:59 -0000 >It just sits there with the cursor on the screen for almost 30seconds. Its not waiting for all the SCSI and USB devices you (don't) have to settle is it? From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 19:04:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2680E16A4DD for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:04:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C48343D46 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:03:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1G9num-000FTy-3l; Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:03:56 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:48:52 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Phill Hocking" , Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:48:51 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <44D4D962.5000408@no-wire.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Subject: RE: Boot Time with Nanobsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:04:00 -0000 > Now read the Handbook until your eyes bleed. :D Yeah, read the beloved Handbook, then try to do what it says, only to find it still relates to 4.9. Great. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 19:52:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCAAB16A4E5 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:52:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from helmut@zeebar.com) Received: from ldapslave1-1.csp.thesmbexchange.com (ldapslave1-1.csp.thesmbexchange.com [66.238.112.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBEC943D64 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:52:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from helmut@zeebar.com) Received: (qmail 12161 invoked by uid 105); 6 Aug 2006 12:52:39 -0700 Received: from helmut@zeebar.com by ldapslave1-1.csp.thesmbexchange.com by VirusMatrix-3.2 (Scan result: Clear) Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.55]) (helmut@zeebar.com@[24.69.4.251]) (envelope-sender ) by 0 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 6 Aug 2006 12:52:39 -0700 Message-ID: <44D64862.1010701@zeebar.com> Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:52:02 -0700 From: Helmut Hissen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Mansion References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:52:50 -0000 Face it: You're on the road less travelled. It can be fun, but it's a lonely place. I have had multiple 100% silent (no moving parts) FreeBSD workstations in my office for the last six years, and it really is the way to go, but every time I upgrade my main server, I wind up patching a bunch of rc.stuff and the docs are always lagging the code. It takes a few (mostly unattended) hours to reinstall Everything on my main (basement) FreeBSD server, and then it takes two days of fiddling to string together the weirdness that is the latest ever-evolving version of diskless support to resurrect my silent (office) workstations. I suspect that if the feature was more popular, it would receive more attention during QA and releasing. FreeBSD is not alone here; from xorg to gnome to xmms, somehow developers over the years have assumed that the same user would never have multiple X sessions active on multiple hosts using the same home directory. I know this is just one of many ways of using diskless boot, but like all the other ways, this is just not the sort of configuration that gets tested (much apparently) before promoting code to production.... which makes all the difference. How to fix this? Maybe a coordinated effort to clean up this part of the code for all and then keep it clean? Maybe we can leverage some of the recent mainstream attention to "silent PCs" to make this a more popular (as in "more often used") feature? cheers Helmut Hissen James Mansion wrote: > Thanks Vlidimir. > >> I think rc.diskless2 (and rc.diskless1 ) is 5.X related. >> > > I have to say, one of the things one hears about FreeBSD by > proponents is that the quality of documentation is supposed to be > better than linux. But it is depressing that when you read > the documentation, you then have to try and work out whether > it applies to 4.x, 5.x or is actually in any way related to > current 6.x systems. > From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 21:02:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0D716A4DA for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:02:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phocking@no-wire.net) Received: from mail.dryanta.com (dryanta.com [65.39.221.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8E343D4C for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:02:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phocking@no-wire.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.dryanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082AD5C5A for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.no-wire.net Received: from mail.dryanta.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (www.dryanta.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NRf1GHrGTuuM for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (c-67-181-212-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.181.212.87]) by mail.dryanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C2C5C55 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44D658FF.1080100@no-wire.net> Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:02:55 -0700 From: Phill Hocking User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Boot Time with Nanobsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:02:49 -0000 James Mansion wrote: >> Now read the Handbook until your eyes bleed. :D >> > > Yeah, read the beloved Handbook, then try to do what > it says, only to find it still relates to 4.9. Great. > > > > Umm, I was advising him to read up in general, because he thought MYKERNEL was a valid kernel configuration file as opposed to a stand-in. Your problem with diskless operation is a more obscure and advanced subject than configuring a kernel. Also, it is as easy to solve as sending a pr or joining the documentation team. -- Phillip Hocking Director of Operations Network Engineer No-Wire Communications phocking@no-wire.net www.no-wire.net From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 21:59:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EFB216A4DE for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:59:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9BB43D68 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:59:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1G9qeG-000Opc-7D; Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:59:04 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:28:41 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Mark Linimon" Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:28:40 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20060806154521.GA21656@soaustin.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:59:09 -0000 >FreeBSD is a Work In Progress. When you find missing >or broken documentation, please write it up and send-pr(1). Thanks. Look, I'm sorry, but I have no intention developing an operating system right now - I just want to use one. I don't provide operating systems to anyone. When I look at the documentation, I need it to help me, not trigger a journey of learning that might enable me to fix it after I've wasted a lot of time. Please don't give canned responses. Is it unacceptable to be a user? Whener should I ask? James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 22:06:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A8C16A4E5 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8634643D45 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:06:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2A6223E60; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:06:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:06:46 -0500 To: James Mansion Message-ID: <20060806220646.GA4737@soaustin.net> References: <20060806154521.GA21656@soaustin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:06:46 -0000 On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 08:28:40PM +0100, James Mansion wrote: > Is it unacceptable to be a user? No, but, who do you expect to do all the work? FreeBSD is developed by _volunteers_. The current documentation team seems to be fairly saturated. People who complain that things are broken but then don't pitch in to help fix the brokenness don't improve the state of FreeBSD. It takes a fully cooperative effort from all concerned. I really don't know what other response you should expect. mcl From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 6 22:35:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B523416A4DE for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:35:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [142.46.199.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6872343D46 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:35:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([142.46.199.182] helo=localhost ident=mailnull) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.60 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1G9rDI-000Aci-EH; Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:35:16 -0400 Received: from db by night.db.net with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1G9rDH-000JHY-SU; Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:35:15 -0400 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 18:35:15 -0400 From: Diane Bruce To: James Mansion Message-ID: <20060806223515.GA74003@night.db.net> References: <20060806154521.GA21656@soaustin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:35:23 -0000 On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 08:28:40PM +0100, James Mansion wrote: > >FreeBSD is a Work In Progress. When you find missing > >or broken documentation, please write it up and send-pr(1). Thanks. > ... > > When I look at the documentation, I need it to help me, not > trigger a journey of learning that might enable me > to fix it after I've wasted a lot of time. You keep lab notes right? It would be nice to see the lab notes. The lab notes would help others redo the documentation at least even if you don't have time to do so yourself. "I tried this, but this is what is really needed." -- - db@db.net http://www.db.net/~db From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 7 21:59:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BAAD16A4DD for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 21:59:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BC243D69 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 21:59:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1GAD8S-0001Bj-5Z; Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:59:45 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 21:49:14 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Diane Bruce" Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 21:49:12 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20060806223515.GA74003@night.db.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:59:47 -0000 >You keep lab notes right? It would be nice to see the lab notes. I would if I were going to go on that journey, but I'm not going to. I already went there on Linux and I can just use that. As it is, I just installed Ubunto onto the box in question. >No, but, who do you expect to do all the work? FreeBSD is developed by >_volunteers_. The current documentation team seems to be fairly saturated. Yes, I know, but often its quoted that the documentation is supposed to be differntiating, and in my experience whenever I dip in, I find that they've been rotting since the 4.7 or so heyday. >People who complain that things are broken but then don't pitch in to help >fix the brokenness don't improve the state of FreeBSD. It takes a fully >cooperative effort from all concerned. Well, tough. Like I say, I'm a consumer. I buy OS disks rather than download them (6.1 came in FreeBSD 6 Unleashed). I've heard the arguments before (I've been developing on UNIX for nearly 20 years now) but I have my own systems to focus on. If you are trying to make the point that _volunteer_ projects are fundamentally flawed well, maybe you're right, and Mr Shuttleworth's largese will prove an unstoppable source - we'll see. I could do this stuff, and help. But I'm not going to, because I have my own priorities and not much time. But then, I'm not looking for kudos from being involved, being a creator. I'm not in the OS business. If you volunteer to be in that business, then good for you - but at least take ownership of the responsibility of being in the OS business. Its really not OK to present something as being the best thing since sliced bread 'as a complete system - not just a kernel' and then run and hide and say 'you found a bug - fix it yourself and send us a patch' at the first sign of trouble. May be it was, but not any longer. I don't care. I'll revisit FreeBSD when 7.0 comes out, at least for this small diskless setup. Or maybe not, if NetBSD gets its act together with grub. I remain gobsmacked that this particular installation scenario isn't well documented and supported out of the box, given how far flash and similar has fallen in price, and how FreeBSD et al are handy as network edge devices that could benefit from running with a had disk that's spun down even if not running from cache. James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 7 23:08:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7444B16A4DE for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:08:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B6A43D46 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:08:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 05AA54197; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:08:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:08:30 -0500 To: James Mansion Message-ID: <20060807230830.GB26343@soaustin.net> References: <20060806223515.GA74003@night.db.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:08:32 -0000 On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 09:49:12PM +0100, James Mansion wrote: > Its really not OK to present something as being the best thing since > sliced bread 'as a complete system - not just a kernel' and then > run and hide and say 'you found a bug - fix it yourself and send > us a patch' at the first sign of trouble. No one has run and hidden away. I think you completely misunderstand how Open Source projects that are driven by volunteers work. FreeBSD is a "bottom-up" project, driven by people who contribute to it. There is no "boss" passing out assignments saying "Person X needs to work on problem Y now". Person X works on what Person X wants to work on and that's it. To some extent, compromise and peer pressure come into play to try to drive rough consensus on what should be worked on, so as little work as possible is duplicated or wasted. If Person Z tries to tell Person X, "you must work on problem Y", Person X has every right to say, "sorry, I have other priorities" (and think, "who made Person Z my boss, anyway?"). In fact, that's generally what happens, since most FreeBSD developers have a long list of things they want to fix/ work on/whatever. So when you complain "Problem Y is bad", there is no particular Person X who is obligated to work on it. You might find such a person by posting on the list or using send-pr(1), but there is no guarantee. I think you're going to find that any of the BSD or Linux flavors are primarily made from volunteer contributions, as well. Finally, I'm not aware of any OS that doesn't have both source and documentation bugs, including the commercial ones. Good luck on finding one. In the meantime, I think I'll just be done with this thread. mcl From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 8 00:04:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D847D16A4DD for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 00:04:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [142.46.199.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96E943D60 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 00:04:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([142.46.199.182] helo=localhost ident=mailnull) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.60 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1GAF59-000FH6-7K; Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:04:27 -0400 Received: from db by night.db.net with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1GAF56-000Fc4-9z; Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:04:24 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:04:23 -0400 From: Diane Bruce To: Mark Linimon Message-ID: <20060808000423.GA57061@night.db.net> References: <20060806223515.GA74003@night.db.net> <20060807230830.GB26343@soaustin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060807230830.GB26343@soaustin.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:04:30 -0000 On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 06:08:30PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 09:49:12PM +0100, James Mansion wrote: > > Its really not OK to present something as being the best thing since > > sliced bread 'as a complete system - not just a kernel' and then > > run and hide and say 'you found a bug - fix it yourself and send > > us a patch' at the first sign of trouble. > > No one has run and hidden away. I think you completely misunderstand how > Open Source projects that are driven by volunteers work. I saw this today. It is completely applicable. http://math-atlas.sourceforge.net/faq.html#binary Why are you such a jerk when answering user questions? AKA: how can I help you feel good about providing me with support? With some notes as to what is wrong from a lab book, a volunteer would step up to update the documentation. Now it can't be. The people that write the documentation aren't always the ones that install the software. 'nuff said. -- - db@db.net http://www.db.net/~db From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 8 01:49:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826C116A4DD for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 01:49:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chad@DCFinc.com) Received: from freebie.dcfinc.com (freebie.dcfinc.com [205.159.99.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A6643D49 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 01:49:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chad@DCFinc.com) Received: from freebie.dcfinc.com (chad@localhost.dcfinc.com [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.dcfinc.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k781n4di005392; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:49:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chad@freebie.dcfinc.com) Received: (from chad@localhost) by freebie.dcfinc.com (8.13.1/8.12.11/Submit) id k781n4w0005391; Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:49:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chad) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:49:04 -0700 From: "Chad R. Larson" To: James Mansion Message-ID: <20060808014904.GA5061@freebie.dcfinc.com> References: <20060806223515.GA74003@night.db.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 01:49:51 -0000 On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 09:49:12PM +0100, James Mansion wrote: >> People who complain that things are broken but then don't pitch >> in to help fix the brokenness don't improve the state of FreeBSD. >> It takes a fully cooperative effort from all concerned. > > Well, tough. Like I say, I'm a consumer. It seems you have either missed the point being expressed in this thread, or are being deliberately obtuse. You say you are a consumer. FreeBSD isn't a consumer product (nor do I think it has been promoted as such). Apple Mac OS X is a consumer product. Windows is a consumer product. Perhaps you should be using them? And just an aside, the best way to get a volunteer to do what you want him to is not to start with "Well, tough" as an attitude. > I've heard the arguments before (I've been developing on UNIX for > nearly 20 years now) but I have my own systems to focus on. Me to, since the mid '70s. My machines that aren't Macs are running FreeBSD. I don't seem to have the kinds of problems you are having. For example, my router/firewall/gateway is running a custom built FreeBSD 4.11 kernel and the necessary userland programs off a 16MB compact flash, in 128MB of RAM. Should be simple for a UNIX expert such as yourself to do similar things. > I could do this stuff, and help. But I'm not going to, because > I have my own priorities and not much time. Again, "I could help, but I'm not gonna" is not the best way to get someone else to dig into your problem. What you're saying is "My time is more important than your time, so do the stuff I want done for me." > I don't care. You care enough to invest an hour or so in writing bitch-o-grams. > I remain gobsmacked that this particular installation scenario > isn't well documented and supported out of the box, given how far > flash and similar has fallen in price, and how FreeBSD et al are > handy as network edge devices that could benefit from running with > a had disk that's spun down even if not running from cache. For a head start on a diskless FreeBSD installation, visit http://m0n0.ch/bsd/ > James -crl -- Chad R. Larson (CRL15) 602-264-5009 chad@DCFinc.com Else: chad@larsons.org http://public.xdi.org/=Chad.R.Larson DCF, Inc., 1701 East Colter Street, Phoenix, Arizona 85016-3381 From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 8 15:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E996816A4DA for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:32:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca) Received: from wrdsl02.terago.ca (wrdsl02.terago.ca [207.54.102.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFBE43D4C for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:32:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca) Received: from [192.168.0.6] (unknown [64.201.181.165]) by wrdsl02.terago.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFE886E87 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:32:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Roger Miranda (Digital Relay)" Organization: Digital Relay Inc. To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:32:34 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608081032.35725.rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca> Subject: Ports and Mondifications X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:32:26 -0000 Well here come some more questions from the newbie. I'm keeping everything in notes so then hopefully I can get some more documentation to the freebsd team (Not sure how the whole ducumentation process works). But on to the questions: 1. I've got Packages installed, but I would like to install some ports is this doable? I'm guessing the one problem I got right now is when I do a "Portupgrade -Dcf " it can not get routed to the internet. Is there a way around this? 2. I would like to modify some files in the nanobsd filesystem image. I know I can do it at build time. But is there a quicker way of rebuilding the image instead of waiting for the whole process? For testing is sure sucks due to the long compile time (I need a faster system). Well thanks for all the help. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 8 16:43:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1DA16A4E2 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:43:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phocking@no-wire.net) Received: from mail.dryanta.com (dryanta.com [65.39.221.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4792043D49 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:43:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phocking@no-wire.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.dryanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C88835C6B for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.no-wire.net Received: from mail.dryanta.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (www.dryanta.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGVv7FB5jtlS for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (c-67-181-212-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.181.212.87]) by mail.dryanta.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0CE5C3C for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44D8BF49.1070008@no-wire.net> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:43:53 -0700 From: Phill Hocking User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org References: <200608081032.35725.rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca> In-Reply-To: <200608081032.35725.rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Ports and Mondifications X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:43:49 -0000 Roger Miranda (Digital Relay) wrote: > Well here come some more questions from the newbie. > I'm keeping everything in notes so then hopefully I can get some more > documentation to the freebsd team (Not sure how the whole ducumentation > process works). But on to the questions: > > 1. I've got Packages installed, but I would like to install some ports is this > doable? I'm guessing the one problem I got right now is when I do > a "Portupgrade -Dcf " it can not get routed to the internet. > Is there a way around this? > > 2. I would like to modify some files in the nanobsd filesystem image. I know I > can do it at build time. But is there a quicker way of rebuilding the image > instead of waiting for the whole process? For testing is sure sucks due to > the long compile time (I need a faster system). > > Well thanks for all the help. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-small@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-small > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-small-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > You can do it the way phk does http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2005-October/056974.html Basically this is the tough part. Any port that adds a user will fail. It's easier to just mount the image, cp over the packages, and then upload it to your running device. You also could just add them to the /usr/obj/wherever and run the last few steps of nanobsd.sh too. -- Phillip Hocking Director of Operations Network Engineer No-Wire Communications phocking@no-wire.net www.no-wire.net From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 8 17:25:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F4316A4DD for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 17:25:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca) Received: from wrdsl02.terago.ca (wrdsl02.terago.ca [207.54.102.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C4843D45 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 17:25:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca) Received: from [192.168.0.6] (unknown [64.201.181.165]) by wrdsl02.terago.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE8686E79; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:25:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Roger Miranda (Digital Relay)" Organization: Digital Relay Inc. To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:25:12 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <200608081032.35725.rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca> <44D8BF49.1070008@no-wire.net> In-Reply-To: <44D8BF49.1070008@no-wire.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608081225.13654.rmiranda@digitalrelay.ca> Cc: Subject: Re: Ports and Mondifications X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:25:06 -0000 Phil, Thanks for the help. I did follow the phk script. I did get Packages to install. Also the packages did install appropriate users to the passwd file (www, proxy, etc...), So I am a bit confused on that front. Any explanation why it did work? On Tuesday 08 August 2006 11:43, Phill Hocking wrote: > Roger Miranda (Digital Relay) wrote: > > Well here come some more questions from the newbie. > > I'm keeping everything in notes so then hopefully I can get some more > > documentation to the freebsd team (Not sure how the whole ducumentation > > process works). But on to the questions: > > > > 1. I've got Packages installed, but I would like to install some ports is > > this doable? I'm guessing the one problem I got right now is when I do a > > "Portupgrade -Dcf " it can not get routed to the internet. Is > > there a way around this? > > > > 2. I would like to modify some files in the nanobsd filesystem image. I > > know I can do it at build time. But is there a quicker way of rebuilding > > the image instead of waiting for the whole process? For testing is sure > > sucks due to the long compile time (I need a faster system). > > > > Well thanks for all the help. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-small@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-small > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-small-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > You can do it the way phk does > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2005-October/056974.html > Basically this is the tough part. Any port that adds a user will fail. > It's easier to just mount the image, cp over the packages, and then > upload it to your running device. You also could just add them to the > /usr/obj/wherever and run the last few steps of nanobsd.sh too. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 12 11:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0804D16A4DD for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:01:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F2343D73 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:00:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1GBrEb-000MCC-5O; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:00:54 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:48:51 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Mark Linimon" Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:48:50 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20060807230830.GB26343@soaustin.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:01:04 -0000 >No one has run and hidden away. I think you completely misunderstand >how Open Source projects that are driven by volunteers work. I assure you that I understand - I just think its far from ideal. I don't see why my relationship with 'the suppliers of FreeBSD' should in any way differ from my relationship with the suppliers of Solaris or Windows or RedHat (all of which I use at work) or 'the suppliers of Ubuntu Linux' which I use at home when I want to use Linux. All of which are cheap as chips (well, not RedHat) and work OK. Now I quite accept all the excuses you give about why things can be problematic with volunteer projects, but if you want to be part of a system that's a contender, then you have to address it. You can't tell users thatthey have to be developers, which is effectively what you told me. Sorry, it doesn't work any more. There's too much good competition - adequate workstation operating systems are commoditised. James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 12 11:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4627B16A4DE for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:01:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7025743D76 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:00:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1GBrEc-000MCC-4x; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:00:55 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:57:33 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Chad R. Larson" Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:57:32 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20060808014904.GA5061@freebie.dcfinc.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:01:04 -0000 >compact flash, in 128MB of RAM. Should be simple for a UNIX expert >such as yourself to do similar things. I didn't say I was a 'UNIX expert' - I do as little admin as I can get away with. I develop trading system applications, and system APIs are where my expertise is. >someone else to dig into your problem. What you're saying is "My >time is more important than your time, so do the stuff I want done >for me." What I'm saying is 'If the documentation is out of date, then delete it so it doesn't waste my time and don't be an ass by suggesting that I write some more'. If there isn't any, be straight and I'll know to look elsewhere. This is freebsd-small, right? What I'm wanting to do should be straightforward and discussions here have suggested as much. > http://m0n0.ch/bsd/ Thank you I'm aware of that. I was asking whether the documentation I found on freebsd.org really is out of date crap. The answer is 'yes', at least for the current release, and some of the articles. They should be removed. I'm not trying to get anyone to do something for me. Just be nice if the FreeBSD community would accept that the oft-heard mantra that it has a complete-system approach and good documentation is rather out of date through bitrot from the recent changes. As it is, the linux-live scripts are attractive if there isn't a 'flick this switch and it happens by magic'. I had thought there was such a thing, but clearly not in FreeBSD 6.1, and I don't have time to invent a solution right now. James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 12 11:57:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266DF16A4DF for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:57:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from gaia.nimnet.asn.au (nimbin.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.45.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2EB43D49 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:57:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from localhost (smithi@localhost) by gaia.nimnet.asn.au (8.8.8/8.8.8R1.4) with SMTP id VAA16982; Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:56:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:56:44 +1000 (EST) From: Ian Smith To: James Mansion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "Chad R. Larson" , freebsd-small@freebsd.org, Mark Linimon Subject: RE: diskless (or rather, readonly) X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:57:13 -0000 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006, James Mansion wrote: > >someone else to dig into your problem. What you're saying is "My > >time is more important than your time, so do the stuff I want done > >for me." > > What I'm saying is 'If the documentation is out of date, then > delete it so it doesn't waste my time and don't be an ass by > suggesting that I write some more'. If there isn't any, be > straight and I'll know to look elsewhere. Mark and Chad have been incredibly polite in trying to help you to understand how things work in FreeBSD land, apparently to no avail. Who's wasting whose time? Take your own advice, look elsewhere. > > http://m0n0.ch/bsd/ > > Thank you I'm aware of that. I was asking whether the documentation > I found on freebsd.org really is out of date crap. The answer is 'yes', > at least for the current release, and some of the articles. They > should be removed. 'Somebody should!' "You people should fix it up for me!" "Waaa!" > As it is, the linux-live scripts are attractive if there isn't > a 'flick this switch and it happens by magic'. I had thought > there was such a thing, but clearly not in FreeBSD 6.1, and I don't > have time to invent a solution right now. So go use whatever you fancy better, something with paid support might suit your attitude. We really don't mind. All your other stuff about competitiveness, market share and the like just isn't what it's about. Ian