From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 18 14:41:04 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6ED116A400 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:41:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvatore@oems.ch) Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-05.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CF413C480 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:41:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvatore@oems.ch) Received: from oemspc07 (62.167.235.219) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.2.073) id 45EECE8C0017B3CB for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:41:02 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c7696b$29ffb6f0$222ba8c0@oemspc07> From: "Salvatore Albanese" To: References: <20070318120011.0603916A476@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:38:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Subject: Re: Blah Blah Bah Blob X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:41:04 -0000 Greetings and A Big Timeout all. Well I note that if you are are forwarding the FreeBSD OS then we need to face the fact it is good! and freedom is really close to chaos, with freedom at stake, I vote for Chaos. FreeBSD is good and it has helped many of my clients get out of the grips of Commercial Server Operation System's, and give them at the same time Stability, Secure, and Reliable services. OK maybe there are some people with inroads to be worked out, and have some political and person greavances, Some feel this is a Place to forward FreeBSD, not blast each other. For some us we feel FreeBSD 6 tree is still broken and has not moved forward as fast as we all want it to. Do to most of the person and political differences want to make it seem a lost hope, Well wasn't it I, that said "freedom is really close to chaos." Well we are at the chaos stage, and that means some parties want to be, more or less, decenting, wait that starst to sound like democratic, not autocratic..... this is the point, with feedback we can get the concensis of what we all want. by listening and digesting the facts. soon we forget that some players in the allBSD crowd brought us the EuroBSDcon2005 , and they were open enough to have freeBSD be there too. After all there are many BSD's, I feel giving equal time to the other flavors of BSD was quite a refreshing, since then the BSD parties have grown apart a little, but what does it mean. My clients who had faith in me and FreeBSD will be let down ( not on my watch), will we have to develop FreeBSD alone, ( the core will never let that happen) some try to discredit FreeBSD to their own person gains (Maybe) will this silliness last very long ( no!) All said and done let the doors of the firey ball of fermament fly open, after all this is a FreeBSD Advocacy list not a tool shed list! Anyone can write this better contact me for my feelings and I hope we can all come to a common frame of mind. Best regards Salvatore Albanese Sr. Consultant OEMS Sagl ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 1:00 PM Subject: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 181, Issue 5 > Send freebsd-advocacy mailing list submissions to > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of freebsd-advocacy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > 2. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Jona Joachim) > 3. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > 4. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Jan Husar) > 5. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > 6. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Jan Husar) > 7. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Jona Joachim) > 8. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > 9. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Jona Joachim) > 10. Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign (Jona Joachim) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:14:32 +0100 > From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: Jona Joachim > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Jona Joachim writes: >> I heard of the "Stop the Blob" campaign led by allBSD [1] today. >> The FreeBSD logo is used in their flyer [2] which means that the >> FreeBSD Project is supporting the campaign. > > I don't see a FreeBSD logo there. All I see is the BSD daemon, which > is a common mascot for all BSD derivatives. The FreeBSD logo is here: > > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:53:50 +0100 > From: Jona Joachim > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:14:32 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > >> Jona Joachim writes: >> > I heard of the "Stop the Blob" campaign led by allBSD [1] today. >> > The FreeBSD logo is used in their flyer [2] which means that the >> > FreeBSD Project is supporting the campaign. >> >> I don't see a FreeBSD logo there. All I see is the BSD daemon, which >> is a common mascot for all BSD derivatives. The FreeBSD logo is here: >> > > You have to scroll to the bottom of the flyer. I hope this is not too > much of an effort. > http://misc.allbsd.de/Kampagnen/NoBlob/NoBlob-en-Poster.jpg > > Jona > > -- > "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists > build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns > laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you > are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 187 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20070317/0a1dd146/signature-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:25:21 +0100 > From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: Jona Joachim > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Jona Joachim writes: >> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> > Jona Joachim writes: >> > > I heard of the "Stop the Blob" campaign led by allBSD [1] today. >> > > The FreeBSD logo is used in their flyer [2] which means that the >> > > FreeBSD Project is supporting the campaign. >> > I don't see a FreeBSD logo there. All I see is the BSD daemon, >> > which is a common mascot for all BSD derivatives. The FreeBSD >> > logo is here: >> You have to scroll to the bottom of the flyer. I hope this is not >> too much of an effort. >> http://misc.allbsd.de/Kampagnen/NoBlob/NoBlob-en-Poster.jpg > > OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be > hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:27:49 +0100 > From: Jan Husar > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Jona Joachim > > Message-ID: <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> Jona Joachim writes: >>> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >>>> Jona Joachim writes: >>>>> I heard of the "Stop the Blob" campaign led by allBSD [1] today. >>>>> The FreeBSD logo is used in their flyer [2] which means that the >>>>> FreeBSD Project is supporting the campaign. >>>> I don't see a FreeBSD logo there. All I see is the BSD daemon, >>>> which is a common mascot for all BSD derivatives. The FreeBSD >>>> logo is here: >>> You have to scroll to the bottom of the flyer. I hope this is not >>> too much of an effort. >>> http://misc.allbsd.de/Kampagnen/NoBlob/NoBlob-en-Poster.jpg >> >> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >> > > What this suppose to mean? > Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! > >> DES > > > > -- > ----------------------------------- > | Jan Husar > | > | freedomeurope.blogspot.com > | GnuPG 1024D/DDB1C1AE > | http://www.opensource.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:47:46 +0100 > From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: Jan Husar > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Jona Joachim > > Message-ID: <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Jan Husar writes: >> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> > OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> > hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >> What this suppose to mean? Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! > > No matter how good a job they do, they still have to follow the law. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:53:56 +0100 > From: Jan Husar > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Jona Joachim > > Message-ID: <45FC5564.3030302@skosi.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> Jan Husar writes: >>> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >>>> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >>>> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >>> What this suppose to mean? Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! >> >> No matter how good a job they do, they still have to follow the law. >> > > Definetly, but: > > Over the years as I'm working as full time opensource activist mostly > involved with the community and government/educational sector I must > say, the main reason we are so effective and deployable is we are able > to cooperate over any communication method know to man. > > Which means, if I see action somewhere benefiting us as a whole, I'm > going to support it, because in the end it does support and help me and > my projects. > > If allbsd did something wrong, we should be able to discuss is and > possible fix or try to find a solution, not spaming about lawyers. > As a community, we suffer enough, should we have some enemy within and > fight a guerilla warfare? When the BSD have enough problems already? > > Jan > >> DES > > > -- > ----------------------------------- > | Jan Husar > | > | freedomeurope.blogspot.com > | GnuPG 1024D/DDB1C1AE > | http://www.opensource.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:54:43 +0100 > From: Jona Joachim > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20070317215443.6fd2d6ce@localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:25:21 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > >> Jona Joachim writes: >> > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> > > Jona Joachim writes: >> > > > I heard of the "Stop the Blob" campaign led by allBSD [1] today. >> > > > The FreeBSD logo is used in their flyer [2] which means that the >> > > > FreeBSD Project is supporting the campaign. >> > > I don't see a FreeBSD logo there. All I see is the BSD daemon, >> > > which is a common mascot for all BSD derivatives. The FreeBSD >> > > logo is here: >> > You have to scroll to the bottom of the flyer. I hope this is not >> > too much of an effort. >> > http://misc.allbsd.de/Kampagnen/NoBlob/NoBlob-en-Poster.jpg >> >> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... > > Does this mean that the FreeBSD Project leaders didn't know that our > logo was used for this campaign? > Does this mean that the FreeBSD Project encourages blobs? > > Jona > > > -- > "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists > build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns > laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you > are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 187 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20070317/cf7a6593/signature-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:05:32 +0100 > From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: Jona Joachim > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <86ps771syr.fsf@dwp.des.no> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Jona Joachim writes: >> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> > OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> > hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >> Does this mean that the FreeBSD Project leaders didn't know that our >> logo was used for this campaign? >> Does this mean that the FreeBSD Project encourages blobs? > > It means that the matter is now in the hands of those who are > qualified to handle it. > > As for the FreeBSD Project's stance on closed-source drivers, I will > let the source tree speak for itself: > > des@dwp ~% find /sys/contrib -name \*.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/nve/amd64/nvenetlib.o.bz2.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/nve/i386/nvenetlib.o.bz2.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/oltr/i386-elf.trlld.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/arm9-le-thumb-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/armv4-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/armv4-le-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/i386-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/mips-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/mips-le-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/mips1-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/mips1-le-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/mipsisa32-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/mipsisa32-le-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/powerpc-be-eabi.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/powerpc-le-eabi.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/sh4-le-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/x86_64-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/xscale-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/xscale-le-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/alpha-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/powerpc-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/sparc64-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/ap30.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/ap43.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/ap51.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/ap61.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ath/public/sparc-be-elf.hal.o.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ipw/ipw2100-1.3-i.fw.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ipw/ipw2100-1.3-p.fw.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/ipw/ipw2100-1.3.fw.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/iwi/ipw2200-bss.fw.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/iwi/ipw2200-ibss.fw.uu > /sys/contrib/dev/iwi/ipw2200-sniffer.fw.uu > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:12:41 +0100 > From: Jona Joachim > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Joachim , > Jona > Message-ID: <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:47:46 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > >> Jan Husar writes: >> > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> > > OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> > > hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >> > What this suppose to mean? Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! >> >> No matter how good a job they do, they still have to follow the law. > > What makes you say they violated the law? I'm quite sure some people of > the FreeBSD Foundation were shown this before it was made public. > > Jona > > -- > "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists > build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns > laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you > are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 187 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20070317/7c47e961/signature-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:24:59 +0100 > From: Jona Joachim > Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign > To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav ) > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Jona Joachim > > Message-ID: <20070317222459.119fc7c1@localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:05:32 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > >> Jona Joachim writes: >> > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >> > > OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> > > hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >> > Does this mean that the FreeBSD Project leaders didn't know that our >> > logo was used for this campaign? >> > Does this mean that the FreeBSD Project encourages blobs? >> >> It means that the matter is now in the hands of those who are >> qualified to handle it. >> >> As for the FreeBSD Project's stance on closed-source drivers, I will >> let the source tree speak for itself: >> >> des@dwp ~% find /sys/contrib -name \*.uu > > > How about porting OpenHAL to FreeBSD? > > Jona > > -- > "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists > build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns > laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you > are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 187 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20070317/48a76add/signature-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 181, Issue 5 > ************************************************ > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 18 22:51:38 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E4916A402 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:51:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from mail.sw-sec.de (mail.sw-sec.de [212.204.60.86]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B60913C4B8 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:51:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from [192.168.115.11] (62-167-21-24.static.adslpremium.ch [62.167.21.24]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.sw-sec.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l2IMpaRf023244 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:51:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Message-ID: <45FDC2AE.6010608@praxisvermittlung24.de> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:52:30 +0100 From: Daniel Seuffert Organization: Seuffert & Waidmann User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: DS@praxisvermittlung24.de List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:51:38 -0000 Jona Joachim schrieb: > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:47:46 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > >> Jan Husar writes: >>> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >>>> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >>>> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >>> What this suppose to mean? Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! >> No matter how good a job they do, they still have to follow the law. > > What makes you say they violated the law? I'm quite sure some people of > the FreeBSD Foundation were shown this before it was made public. > > Jona Sure, allBSD has permission to use the Freebsd logo etc. and we use it on labels, flyers etc. for years and we are following every advice Deb Godkin has given us and I frequently mail him to take care everything is done according to the policy the FreeBSD foundation has. If somebody is irritated here: Yes, FreeBSD uses Blobs, but a lot of people don't think this is a good idea (to promote that use). This campaign is about telling people why Blobs are bad and why we need support for freely available documentation. The upcoming flyer will explain all the details. This poster is just the beginning please don't forget. Nobody told you Blobs are forbidden or FreeBSD should abandon all Blobs etc. You are the user, you are the one responsible for your machines. If you want to use Blobs please use them. That's the Free in FreeBSD contrary to the policy of OpenBSD and nobody wants to change that ;-) Best regards, Daniel From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 18 23:03:12 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCCB16A401 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:03:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from mail.sw-sec.de (mail.sw-sec.de [212.204.60.86]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB37313C4CB; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:03:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from [192.168.115.11] (62-167-21-24.static.adslpremium.ch [62.167.21.24]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.sw-sec.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l2IMNtRf022294; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:23:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Message-ID: <45FDBC2B.6000407@praxisvermittlung24.de> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:24:43 +0100 From: Daniel Seuffert Organization: Seuffert & Waidmann User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jona Joachim References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , Jona@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: DS@praxisvermittlung24.de List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:03:12 -0000 Jona Joachim wrote: > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:47:46 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > >> Jan Husar writes: >>> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >>>> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >>>> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... >>> What this suppose to mean? Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! >> No matter how good a job they do, they still have to follow the law. > > What makes you say they violated the law? I'm quite sure some people of > the FreeBSD Foundation were shown this before it was made public. > > Jona Sure, allBSD has permission to use the Freebsd logo etc. and we use it on labels, flyers etc. for years and we are following every advice Deb Godkin has given us and I frequently mail him to take care everything is done according to the policy the FreeBSD foundation has. If somebody is irritated here: Yes, FreeBSD uses Blobs, but a lot of people don't think this is a good idea (to promote that use). This campaign is about telling people why Blobs are bad and why we need support for better and freely available documentation. The upcoming flyer will explain all the details. This poster is just the beginning please don't forget. Nobody told you Blobs are forbidden or FreeBSD should abandon all Blobs etc. You are the user, you are the one responsible for your machines. If you want to use Blobs please use them. That's the Free in FreeBSD contrary to the policy of OpenBSD and nobody wants to change that ;-) Best regards, Daniel From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 19 03:23:29 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C4816A400 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:23:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walkingshadow@grummel.net) Received: from mail1.bytemine.net (mat.bytemine.net [193.41.144.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0485F13C44C for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:23:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walkingshadow@grummel.net) Received: from 4be54-4-82-234-154-189.fbx.proxad.net ([82.234.154.189]:32209 helo=mailsvr.my.domain) by mail1.bytemine.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1HT8T1-00026M-Dn for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:23:28 +0100 Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.0.11]) by mailsvr.my.domain (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22AD456F9; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:20:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:19:03 +0100 From: Jona Joachim To: DS@praxisvermittlung24.de Message-ID: <20070319021903.6e6b93b4@localhost> In-Reply-To: <45FDC2AE.6010608@praxisvermittlung24.de> References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> <45FDC2AE.6010608@praxisvermittlung24.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.8.1 (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-portbld-freebsd6.2) X-Face: &>dujC`JZV!}?Y^1"%N{x!f+rW}; PX\_Cg[!|MA~tn3ebIKM|~p=,,U~YJt,Exd`Spk.1Ln zg, Q]0=:!/LTs-eg.Fz, @giLyD'D=s, L\-AJyZ8tcV`kPifedMA@rhoEikoo~K%@iDLNq2?aHZjIt) GqBY7o#9+8j/uuXDVG3`XFEH_4$T%._*%;|vIaP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_nn.sH1mG3Z/xa=gBzU2mUcZ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:23:29 -0000 --Sig_nn.sH1mG3Z/xa=gBzU2mUcZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:52:30 +0100 Daniel Seuffert wrote: > Jona Joachim schrieb: > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:47:46 +0100 > > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav) wrote: > >=20 > >> Jan Husar writes: > >>> Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > >>>> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be > >>>> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... > >>> What this suppose to mean? Allbsd is doing a pretty awesome job! > >> No matter how good a job they do, they still have to follow the > >> law. > >=20 > > What makes you say they violated the law? I'm quite sure some > > people of the FreeBSD Foundation were shown this before it was made > > public. > >=20 > > Jona >=20 >=20 > Sure, allBSD has permission to use the Freebsd logo etc. and we use it > on labels, flyers etc. for years and we are following every advice Deb > Godkin has given us and I frequently mail him to take care everything > is done according to the policy the FreeBSD foundation has. >=20 > If somebody is irritated here: Yes, FreeBSD uses Blobs, but a lot of > people don't think this is a good idea (to promote that use). This > campaign is about telling people why Blobs are bad and why we need > support for freely available documentation. The upcoming flyer will > explain all the details. This poster is just the beginning please > don't forget. >=20 > Nobody told you Blobs are forbidden or FreeBSD should abandon all > Blobs etc. You are the user, you are the one responsible for your > machines. If you want to use Blobs please use them. That's the Free > in FreeBSD contrary to the policy of OpenBSD and nobody wants to > change that ;-) Hi Daniel! I followed the discussion on openbsd-misc, that's why I started this thread, to hear what the FreeBSD folks have to say about it. It's really unfortunate that FreeBSD-GENERIC ships with that whole bunch of blobs IMHO. Open source projects that distribute proprietary software bite their own tail. I think we agree on the fact that blobs are bad and a lot of other FreeBSD users share that same opinion. It would be interesting to hear what the leaders of the projects have to say about this. Is it more important to support hardware than to claim the right for free documentation? Are there other interests involved? Finally I'd like to remind everyone of the fact that not buying undocumented hardware is a good way to fight it. Regards, Jona --=20 "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion --Sig_nn.sH1mG3Z/xa=gBzU2mUcZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFF/eUIB0JBR/6d8XQRAtKDAJ9LKuGQxmwa3U+X8RlWBYhE4jZzdwCcCyto ZnmTnfX9VophGzAdrquPDYw= =FWMT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_nn.sH1mG3Z/xa=gBzU2mUcZ-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 19 06:10:04 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A03D16A402 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:10:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: from mail.rubicom.hu (mail.rubicom.hu [89.147.64.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CD613C448 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:10:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail.rubicom.hu) by mail.rubicom.hu with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1HTAU6-000744-88 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:42 +0100 Received: from baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2J5WQf0001628 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: (from sziszi@localhost) by baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l2J5WQrP001627 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx: sziszi set sender to sziszi@bsd.hu using -f Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> <45FDC2AE.6010608@praxisvermittlung24.de> <20070319021903.6e6b93b4@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070319021903.6e6b93b4@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.14 (2007-02-12) Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:10:04 -0000 I tread very carefully here, after all, the area is full of dead horses and I might accidentally commit violence against some of them by beating them up some more... On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 02:19:03AM +0100, Jona Joachim wrote: > I followed the discussion on openbsd-misc, that's why I started this > thread, to hear what the FreeBSD folks have to say about it. > It's really unfortunate that FreeBSD-GENERIC ships with that whole > bunch of blobs IMHO. Open source projects that distribute proprietary > software bite their own tail. > I think we agree on the fact that blobs are bad and a lot of other > FreeBSD users share that same opinion. > It would be interesting to hear what the leaders of the projects have > to say about this. Is it more important to support hardware than to > claim the right for free documentation? Are there other interests > involved? > Finally I'd like to remind everyone of the fact that not buying > undocumented hardware is a good way to fight it. I think you are quite misguided when you say that FreeBSD ships with a whole bunch of blobs by default. This comes from the fact that - it seems so to me - many people confuse binary closed-source drivers (the ones that really can be could blobs) and closed-source *firmware*. But the difference is quite there. I do not think anyone should have anything against binary *firmware* Just because firmware is no longer "soldered" into your hardware, but needs to be loaded into it from your HDD every time, it still remains firmware. Just because it is on your filesystem, it still remains firmware. While there are some efforts to produce opensource firmware for certain hardware, there is nothing wrong with using the "original" closed-source one, this poses *no* threat to opensource developers or users. Most of the "blobs" that DES listed in this thread are just that: firmware. If you do not like that, fine, but then start by not buying any machine that has a proprietary BIOS. That will somewhat reduce the selection available to... uhm... yeah. To about 0. Reflashing does not count. The "real" blobs are quite few on FreeBSD, because vendors do not see enough incentive to develop drivers for FreeBSD yet mostly, not even closed-source. The only prominent example would be the Nvidia drivers, which are a) not in any way included by default b) are not required for the operation of FreeBSD itself, but rather are for Xorg. You can of course decide to not use those, but the simple reality is that for some hardware, they are the only way to work somewhat ok. This is so much so, that even Ubuntu decided to include the Nvidia and ATI blob drivers by default into their next release instead of just by direct request. So, even if someone does not like "blobs", they are quite well off on FreeBSD. If you do not use the Nvidia drivers, you are mostly ok unless you use some funky vendor-provided third-party stuff but then it is not FreeBSD's but your responsibility. And no, do not let the OpenBSD propagada mislead you: just because *firmware* is licensed and cannot be freely distributed for some hardware, that does not make it a "blob". -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Budapest Hungary From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 19 11:51:42 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF4D16A406 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walkingshadow@grummel.net) Received: from mail1.bytemine.net (mat.bytemine.net [193.41.144.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0E413C4B7 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:51:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walkingshadow@grummel.net) Received: from 4be54-4-82-234-154-189.fbx.proxad.net ([82.234.154.189]:42187 helo=mailsvr.my.domain) by mail1.bytemine.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1HTGOo-0001O7-Ba; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:51:39 +0100 Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.0.11]) by mailsvr.my.domain (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B31456E0; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:52:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:51:25 +0100 From: Jona Joachim To: Szilveszter Adam Message-ID: <20070319125125.5f319d66@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> <45FDC2AE.6010608@praxisvermittlung24.de> <20070319021903.6e6b93b4@localhost> <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.8.1 (GTK+ 2.10.11; i386-portbld-freebsd6.2) X-Face: &>dujC`JZV!}?Y^1"%N{x!f+rW}; PX\_Cg[!|MA~tn3ebIKM|~p=,,U~YJt,Exd`Spk.1Ln zg, Q]0=:!/LTs-eg.Fz, @giLyD'D=s, L\-AJyZ8tcV`kPifedMA@rhoEikoo~K%@iDLNq2?aHZjIt) GqBY7o#9+8j/uuXDVG3`XFEH_4$T%._*%;|vIaP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:51:42 -0000 --Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 Szilveszter Adam wrote: > I tread very carefully here, after all, the area is full of dead > horses and I might accidentally commit violence against some of them > by beating them up some more... >=20 > On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 02:19:03AM +0100, Jona Joachim wrote: > > I followed the discussion on openbsd-misc, that's why I started this > > thread, to hear what the FreeBSD folks have to say about it. > > It's really unfortunate that FreeBSD-GENERIC ships with that whole > > bunch of blobs IMHO. Open source projects that distribute > > proprietary software bite their own tail. > > I think we agree on the fact that blobs are bad and a lot of other > > FreeBSD users share that same opinion. > > It would be interesting to hear what the leaders of the projects > > have to say about this. Is it more important to support hardware > > than to claim the right for free documentation? Are there other > > interests involved? > > Finally I'd like to remind everyone of the fact that not buying > > undocumented hardware is a good way to fight it. >=20 > I think you are quite misguided when you say that FreeBSD ships with a > whole bunch of blobs by default. This comes from the fact that - it > seems so to me - many people confuse binary closed-source drivers (the > ones that really can be could blobs) and closed-source *firmware*. But > the difference is quite there. >=20 > I do not think anyone should have anything against binary *firmware* > Just because firmware is no longer "soldered" into your hardware, but > needs to be loaded into it from your HDD every time, it still remains > firmware. Just because it is on your filesystem, it still remains > firmware. While there are some efforts to produce opensource firmware > for certain hardware, there is nothing wrong with using the "original" > closed-source one, this poses *no* threat to opensource developers or > users. Most of the "blobs" that DES listed in this thread are just > that: firmware. If you do not like that, fine, but then start by not > buying any machine that has a proprietary BIOS. That will somewhat > reduce the selection available to... uhm... yeah. To about 0. > Reflashing does not count. Yes, I know. I'm aware of three blob drivers that are frequently used on FreeBSD: the NVIDIA graphics driver, the Atheros HAL (could possibly be replaced by OpenHAL) and the Adaptec RAID driver. "A whole bunch" was perhaps a bit exaggerated but I think it's more a matter of principle than a matter of quantity. The fact that closed-source firmware is inevitable these days is not to be encouraged IMO, it's just a sad fact. But, as you mentioned, things are changing. > The "real" blobs are quite few on FreeBSD, because vendors do not see > enough incentive to develop drivers for FreeBSD yet mostly, not even > closed-source. The only prominent example would be the Nvidia drivers, > which are a) not in any way included by default b) are not required > for the operation of FreeBSD itself, but rather are for Xorg. You can > of course decide to not use those, but the simple reality is that for > some hardware, they are the only way to work somewhat ok. This is so > much so, that even Ubuntu decided to include the Nvidia and ATI blob > drivers by default into their next release instead of just by direct > request. If the vendors released their specs and provided appropriate documentation they wouldn't need to write drivers for *BSD or even Linux. A lot of developers would be more than happy to write good drivers with the help of the vendor instead of having to do reverse engineering. > So, even if someone does not like "blobs", they are quite well off on > FreeBSD. If you do not use the Nvidia drivers, you are mostly ok > unless you use some funky vendor-provided third-party stuff but then > it is not FreeBSD's but your responsibility. And no, do not let the > OpenBSD propagada mislead you: just because *firmware* is licensed > and cannot be freely distributed for some hardware, that does not > make it a "blob". I think I'm able to process information and make up my own opinion. Regards, Jona --=20 "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion --Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFF/nk9B0JBR/6d8XQRAj5oAKCdi3JdYQflhySJn9qdAjn5Ap9+3wCg29qW eXCDEhhJoturumc+H8WKeik= =thyS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 20 08:13:19 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0A616A400; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:13:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org) Received: from cvs.openbsd.org (cvs.openbsd.org [199.185.137.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A2813C4AE; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:13:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org) Received: from cvs.openbsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cvs.openbsd.org (8.14.0/8.12.1) with ESMTP id l2K7ZXd2032713; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:35:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200703200735.l2K7ZXd2032713@cvs.openbsd.org> To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:07:19 BST." <20070320070719.GD28076@garage.freebsd.pl> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:35:33 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:16:05 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, core@freebsd.org, rwatson@freebsd.org, Ingo Schwarze , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No Blob without Puffy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:13:19 -0000 Please take this up on lists where it is more relevant. OpenBSD is not going to participate in a campaign that calls non-free things free. We don't tell lies like the other BSD's do. > On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 06:04:12PM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > > Hi Pawel, > > > > Pawel Jakub Dawidek schrieb am Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 03:02:47PM +0100: > > > On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 12:38:05PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > > >> So isn't it rather hypocritical to have a anti-Blob campaign, backed > > >> by projects which embrace the Blob? > > > > > So isn't it rather hypocritical to claim GPL license is bad and BSD > > > license is good and ship operating system with GPLed code? > > > How do you feel about having pro-GPL operating system? Why do you lie to > > > your users by having 'BSD' in operating system's name? > > > > Your analogy does not apply at all: > [...] > > Unfortunately you miss the point of my analogy. We have GPLed code. We > would like to get rid of it, but this is not possible just yet. Does > that automatically means that we are pro-GPL? That we lie having 'BSD' > in OS name? No, it means this is one of our goals, it is just not high > priority and we don't feel guilty. This is how it is. The same for > binary-only drivers. We would love to have everything open-source, but > this is not possible currently. We want to move in this direction, of > course, but we also want our users to use their hardware, to have > stable, scalable OS, etc. I'm one of those users with my atheros-based > wireless card I'm using right now. I know what I'm doing. I don't feel > less safe. I don't audit every single driver I use. And I'm happy to use > OS which gives me the choice. > > Hearing all those insults from Theo about all those great BSD people is > just sad. Sam Leffler is one of the most valuable open-source developers > in the history of BSD and UNIX in general, keep that in mind. I just > can't belive how easy people forget about all this. Ah, right, this is > called fanaticism. > > -- > Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl > pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 20 17:12:45 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B898A16A406 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:12:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tcheek@pixelfish.com) Received: from mail01.vmatrixmail.com (mail01.vmatrixmail.com [216.219.244.230]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AA613C489 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:12:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tcheek@pixelfish.com) Received: (vmatrix@mail01.vmatrixmail.com) by vmatrixmail.com id S6078362AbXCTQlc for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:32 -0800 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Rich Media Mail V4. 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Powered by Pixelfish http://www.pixelfish.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 21 20:29:55 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681116A47C for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:29:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from canacar@eee.metu.edu.tr) Received: from ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (ee.eee.metu.edu.tr [144.122.166.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8A413C4AD for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:29:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from canacar@eee.metu.edu.tr) Received: from localhost (localhost.eee.metu.edu.tr [127.0.0.1]) by ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6099D7C65; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from ee.eee.metu.edu.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ee.eee.metu.edu.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08059-03; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:02 +0200 (EET) Received: by ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D0E9CD7C52; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:02 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:07:02 +0200 From: Can Erkin Acar To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at eee.metu.edu.tr Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:29:55 -0000 On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 Szilveszter Adam wrote: > I tread very carefully here, after all, the area is full of dead horses > and I might accidentally commit violence against some of them by > beating them up some more... [snip] > The "real" blobs are quite few on FreeBSD, because vendors do not see > enough incentive to develop drivers for FreeBSD yet mostly, not even > closed-source. The only prominent example would be the Nvidia drivers, > which are a) not in any way included by default b) are not required for > the operation of FreeBSD itself, but rather are for Xorg. You can of > course decide to not use those, but the simple reality is that for some > hardware, they are the only way to work somewhat ok. This is so much > so, that even Ubuntu decided to include the Nvidia and ATI blob drivers > by default into their next release instead of just by direct request. "even Ubuntu?" what a nice OS you have chosen to compare FreeBSD with ... Guess what, even Debian does not have blobs in default install. > So, even if someone does not like "blobs", they are quite well off on > FreeBSD. If you do not use the Nvidia drivers, you are mostly ok unless > you use some funky vendor-provided third-party stuff but then it is not > FreeBSD's but your responsibility. And no, do not let the OpenBSD > propagada mislead you: just because *firmware* is licensed and cannot be > freely distributed for some hardware, that does not make it a "blob". Please do not misguide people. OpenBSD did not ever say that "a firmware with a bad license is a blob" This is a completeley separate issue, not related to blobs. It is a "firmware that can not be distributed" It prevents people from using hardware that they have already paid for on their OS of choice. This is a problem that must be solved Not by making compromises, by including the firmware and making your users turn knobs to "accept" a license. Most of them will not even have an idea that they are actually aggreeing to: "Just type sysctl xyz=1 and your wireless will magically work" An OS that claims to be free should not make its users jump through legal hoops. It should prevent such nastiness by getting vendors to allow distribution of the firmware (Come on! It is just distribution rights! The damn thing is already in the Windows CDs bundled with your card) Consenting to the vendor's wishes and adding knobs and ugly legal hacks to the code just makes it hard for other people trying to get vendors to allow distribution. This is the only similiarity to blobs: Once a "Free" OS consents to blobs, it makes it much harder for others to get specs and documentation from the same vendor. Unfortunately, FreeBSD is doing the Open Source world a disservice by allowing blobs and making "special" deals with vendors for distributing such firmware. It is already hurting us, and will hurt everyone, including FreeBSD much more in the future. Can From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 21 20:45:54 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF2816A484 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:45:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com (newknight.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C0B13C4BC for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:45:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@ixsystems.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42D0BE3D; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34536-03; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.174] (drawbridge.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49B5BD4B; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:45:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <46019976.4090905@iXsystems.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:45:42 -0700 From: Matt Olander User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Macintosh/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Can Erkin Acar References: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> In-Reply-To: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:45:55 -0000 Can Erkin Acar wrote: > Unfortunately, FreeBSD is doing the Open Source world a disservice > by allowing blobs and making "special" deals with vendors for > distributing such firmware. It is already hurting us, and will > hurt everyone, including FreeBSD much more in the future. If you don't agree to the firmware lincense, don't use it. This *is* redistribution of the firmware, exactly as you suggested, and it will have no detrimental impact in ou attempts to negotiate further. You are doing the world a disservice by spreading FUD. -matt -- Matt Olander CTO, iXsystems - "Servers for Open Source" http://www.iXsystems.com Public Relations, The FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org BSD on the Desktop! http://www.pcbsd.org Phone: (408)943-4100 ext. 113 Fax: (408)943-4101 -- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 21 23:19:59 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D61116A500 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from randi@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (freebsdgirl.com [72.36.145.254]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF0513C48A for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from randi@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (freebsdgirl.com [72.36.145.254] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l2LN1bDH015135; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:01:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from randi@freebsdgirl.com) Received: (from randi@localhost) by freebsdgirl.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l2LN1bfg015134; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:01:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from randi) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:01:37 -0500 From: Randi Harper To: Can Erkin Acar Message-ID: <20070321230137.GA665@freebsdgirl.com> References: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.2-RELEASE-p1 i386 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:19:59 -0000 --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 10:07:02PM +0200, Can Erkin Acar wrote: > Unfortunately, FreeBSD is doing the Open Source world a disservice > by allowing blobs and making "special" deals with vendors for > distributing such firmware. It is already hurting us, and will > hurt everyone, including FreeBSD much more in the future. You're right. Clearly, FreeBSD has failed the open source community. Screw = all those vendors! We'll remove support. That'll show 'em. FreeBSD may lose= a large percentage of it's user base due to lack of hardware support, but = hell, we didn't need them anyways. Let them run Linux. I know you're one of those OpenBSD advocates, so just to clarify: that was = sarcasm.=20 --=20 -- Randi Harper Email: randi@freebsdgirl.com Phone: 512.803.1166 URL: http://freebsdgirl.com --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFGAblQK7VwyqYGVCARAk9yAJ9uGDi45z3M9Jqvm4oFHNF3SlGGZwCgtTVi 6iTZdrE0dTkPVJzGqETruhg= =3hv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 22 17:19:11 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E9816A400 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:19:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from canacar@eee.metu.edu.tr) Received: from ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (ee.eee.metu.edu.tr [144.122.166.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B69E13C4D1 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:19:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from canacar@eee.metu.edu.tr) Received: from localhost (localhost.eee.metu.edu.tr [127.0.0.1]) by ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22ADD7BBD; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:19:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from ee.eee.metu.edu.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ee.eee.metu.edu.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10983-02; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:19:04 +0200 (EET) Received: by ee.eee.metu.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1C455D7BBC; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:19:04 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:19:03 +0200 From: Can Erkin Acar To: Matt Olander Message-ID: <20070322171903.GA29332@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> References: <20070321200702.GA10083@ee.eee.metu.edu.tr> <46019976.4090905@iXsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <46019976.4090905@iXsystems.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at eee.metu.edu.tr Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:19:11 -0000 On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 01:45:42PM -0700, Matt Olander wrote: > Can Erkin Acar wrote: > >Unfortunately, FreeBSD is doing the Open Source world a disservice > >by allowing blobs and making "special" deals with vendors for > >distributing such firmware. It is already hurting us, and will > >hurt everyone, including FreeBSD much more in the future. > > If you don't agree to the firmware lincense, don't use it. This *is* > redistribution of the firmware, exactly as you suggested, and it will > have no detrimental impact in ou attempts to negotiate further. > > You are doing the world a disservice by spreading FUD. I *fear* that accepting blobs and working around license restrictions is hurting other projects. I am *not certain* adding a "licence aggreement framework" to a BSD licensed OS is a good idea. I *doubt* that vendors will provide documentation or change their licenses while there are open source projects that bow to their will. I guess it *is* FUD after all. Damn! Have a nice day. Can From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 22 23:15:46 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380BD16A404 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:15:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrrelay@juno.com) Received: from m5.nyc.untd.com (m5.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB5D413C483 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:15:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrrelay@juno.com) Received: from m5.nyc.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m5.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABDAGDRWAGAL8AJ for (sender ); Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: R9CnQVXkTy4RC5ELwduHucy17sJNGKWBBkQsgf5Mf9vbLxUKtm/ksA== Received: (from jrrelay@juno.com) by m5.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id MHGMW6E2; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:14:19 PST To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:14:43 -0600 Message-ID: <20070322.171443.-1794567.0.jrrelay@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-7 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: james r relyea X-ContentStamp: 3:4:1048045509 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m5.nyc.untd.com|jrrelay@juno.com Subject: firmware references Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 182, Issue 3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:15:46 -0000 there were several "references" to "firmware" in the several comments about the "stop the blob" campaign. i wish i knew the real difference between firmware and software. i had previously thought firmware was a program which was 'burned' into a read-only-memory and was used to control some electronic hardware operated by a microprocessor. one example might be what controls a motherboard in a computer - such as the BIOS. are these comments discussing various programs which are components of a software system? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 23 14:07:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD5316A400 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:07:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@xk7.net) Received: from tranquility.mcc.ac.uk (tranquility.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A032013C43E for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:07:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@xk7.net) Received: from kelvin.its.manchester.ac.uk ([130.88.25.195]) by tranquility.mcc.ac.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HUk5K-000HF7-Of for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:45:38 +0000 Received: from [82.153.166.36] (port=1174 helo=[192.168.0.2]) by kelvin.its.manchester.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1HUk5K-0005U8-Cm for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:45:38 +0000 Message-ID: <4603D9FF.4070100@xk7.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:45:35 +0000 From: Paul Waring User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (Windows/20070116) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: Paul Waring from ([192.168.0.2]) [82.153.166.36]:1174 X-Authenticated-From: Paul.Waring@postgrad.manchester.ac.uk X-UoM: Scanned by the University Mail System. See http://www.itservices.manchester.ac.uk/email/filtering/information/ for details. Subject: Lack of FreeBSD coverage in the UK media X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:07:53 -0000 I've noticed over the past few years that there has been a growing number of Linux magazines available in the UK (Linux Format, Linux Magazine and Linux User/Developer are the ones that immediately spring to mind), but there is still no widely available printed magazine aimed at users of FreeBSD (or any other BSD for that matter). I've been wondering why this is the case for a while, and was reminded of the issue during a discussion after a talk given by Robert Watson at this week's UKUUG conference. There doesn't seem to be a lack of people/organisations using FreeBSD in the UK, there are a number of BSD user groups and I'm sure plenty of people attend their local LUG as well. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why FreeBSD doesn't get better media coverage than it currently does in the UK, but I did think of a few ideas that might help improve matters: 1. Try and get a list of BSD user groups printed in the major Linux magazines - Linux Format does this for LUGs so perhaps they'd be open to including UUGs as well. 2. Get mini BSD stories into the existing Linux magazines - most of them have a small bar at the bottom of the main news pages with short summaries of stories and it would be great some BSD-related items there. 3. Have people send in various items which someone edits into a one or two page 'This month in FreeBSD' article (or rather 'three months ago in FreeBSD', given the lead times for articles). The other advantage, apart from extra coverage of FreeBSD, is that magazines will often pay fees for articles, so if an tutorial was put together by several people then that fee could be donated to the FreeBSD Foundation (assuming everyone was happy with that) and everyone wins. What do other people think? Is this lack of coverage a problem which should be addressed, or is FreeBSD doing well enough in the UK as it is? Paul From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 23 14:32:40 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B0E16A402 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from mail.sw-sec.de (mail.sw-sec.de [212.204.60.86]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52C413C45A for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:32:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from [192.168.115.11] (62-167-21-24.static.adslpremium.ch [62.167.21.24]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.sw-sec.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l2NEWbRf097608 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:32:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Message-ID: <4603E522.2090901@praxisvermittlung24.de> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:33:06 +0100 From: Daniel Seuffert Organization: Seuffert & Waidmann User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <4603D9FF.4070100@xk7.net> In-Reply-To: <4603D9FF.4070100@xk7.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Lack of FreeBSD coverage in the UK media X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: DS@praxisvermittlung24.de List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:32:40 -0000 Paul Waring wrote: > I've noticed over the past few years that there has been a growing > number of Linux magazines available in the UK (Linux Format, Linux > Magazine and Linux User/Developer are the ones that immediately spring > to mind), but there is still no widely available printed magazine aimed > at users of FreeBSD (or any other BSD for that matter). I've been > wondering why this is the case for a while, and was reminded of the > issue during a discussion after a talk given by Robert Watson at this > week's UKUUG conference. There doesn't seem to be a lack of > people/organisations using FreeBSD in the UK, there are a number of BSD > user groups and I'm sure plenty of people attend their local LUG as well. > > To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why FreeBSD doesn't get better media > coverage than it currently does in the UK, but I did think of a few > ideas that might help improve matters: > > 1. Try and get a list of BSD user groups printed in the major Linux > magazines - Linux Format does this for LUGs so perhaps they'd be open to > including UUGs as well. > > 2. Get mini BSD stories into the existing Linux magazines - most of them > have a small bar at the bottom of the main news pages with short > summaries of stories and it would be great some BSD-related items there. > > 3. Have people send in various items which someone edits into a one or > two page 'This month in FreeBSD' article (or rather 'three months ago in > FreeBSD', given the lead times for articles). > > The other advantage, apart from extra coverage of FreeBSD, is that > magazines will often pay fees for articles, so if an tutorial was put > together by several people then that fee could be donated to the FreeBSD > Foundation (assuming everyone was happy with that) and everyone wins. > > What do other people think? Is this lack of coverage a problem which > should be addressed, or is FreeBSD doing well enough in the UK as it is? I don't know much about the specific situation in the UK, but I can confirm BSD is not well represented in the media. I really like to see more media attention worldwide and your ideas are reasonable imho. But don't forget: It's hard work and you need people doing this work. That's the problematic part and that's the main reason imho why we don't have more media attention... - Daniel From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 23 15:54:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E79316A5D9 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:54:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from thin.berklix.org (thin.berklix.org [194.246.123.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6FB13C43E for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:54:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549a5903.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.89.3]) (authenticated bits=128) by thin.berklix.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l2NFsZAO052618; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:54:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2NFsXu7019574; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:54:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l2NFsXVb060177; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:54:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200703231554.l2NFsXVb060177@fire.jhs.private> To: Paul Waring In-reply-to: <4603D9FF.4070100@xk7.net> References: <4603D9FF.4070100@xk7.net> Comments: In-reply-to Paul Waring message dated "Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:45:35 +0000." Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:54:33 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lack of FreeBSD coverage in the UK media X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:54:39 -0000 Paul Waring wrote: > I've noticed over the past few years that there has been a growing > number of Linux magazines available in the UK (Linux Format, Linux > Magazine and Linux User/Developer are the ones that immediately spring What one can leverage with magazines depends on local turnover/ size of national business, & if you can amortise costs by publishing abroad too: It's a lot harder to write an article (more work, that fewer can do), than it is for foreign magazines to find local people to translate to local language. eg many Germans in computing read English without problem, so its worth offering any BSD article anyone writes to non English speaking countries world wide. Best bet to be paid, might be to go for a USA / world distributed mag like Dr Dobbs, (that has a hopefully decent turnover to start with), & sell an article to them & simultaneously give them contacts to the UK etc book trade to expand their international sales. Mags want exclusive rights if paying, but if they get article free (& translate to German, Korean or whatever themselves) then you can dictate terms. SKIP REST IF NOT INTERESTED IN BRITISH & GERMAN MAGs. I've been in Munich many years, but British, so fell in to conversation with a Brit. from Linux Mag. few years back when he was visiting Systems, a trade fair in Munich: Germany was Linux mag's cash cow, & Britain was a struggling low turn over low\profit extension (*), so they often took German stuff, translated it & tossed in a bit of local UK if they found it. They weren't overflowing with money for the UK op. ( I was asking them if they wanted a BSD CD mastered, & they said ask German parent co. as more money) (*) Still, remember the Beaching effect, the end station only _appears_ unprofitable, but if cut, the whole is less healthy, so UK probably helped toward commercial health of whole. He thought UK was pretty small market as a whole: far more MickeySoft addicted than Germany (chimes with what I saw): In Waterstones Tun Wells, UK: MS everywhere, virtually zilch else I recall (but TW has no university or polytechnic, no real industry or manufacturing, just inumerable pen pushers, (TW was 1 of 12 designated zone centres for admin. in event of nuclear war, presumably 'cos no industry, (& Unix is since found where more technicly sophisticated users are perhaps ?). In Canterbury (small agricultural town with a cathedral, hence called a city, with a University (significant to early UK Unix), even in the Uni. bookshop there seemed rather a lot of MS & I dont recall BSD, but must have been some Linux. In Munich Germany, (city of ~2x 10^6 with lots of Universities & industry etc) although most is MS; Easy to find a variety of Linux Mags, & in main computer shopping street, shops sell h/ware without OS, & they Have heard of Linux & sometimes BSD, & dont assume pirate just 'cos you dont want to buy MS with h/ware. ... SO unless things have changed in last half decade, UK Linux mags might not have lots of cash for articles, & Linux mags are hard to find some places eg TW, & BSD ie exotic beyond belief. German Mags (apart from Linux mag & Linux User mag): FreeX is not exactly a BSD mag. but nearish ... they publish in German, They are small & Not flush. Editor Rosa Riebl speaks English, they'd likely be interested if you weren't looking for [much] money http://www.cul.de +49.911.400030. IX mag. by http://www.heise.de (who also publish a great hardware mag `CT', but in German & off topic) `IX' mag has occasional trials in English, & an English web http://www.heise.de/english/ -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com Escape Microsoft 20th April 2007: http://berklix.com/free/talk/ Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 23 16:24:09 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC63916A400 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:24:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shannon@widomaker.com) Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817E313C4C2 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:24:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shannon@widomaker.com) Received: from [69.72.100.1] (helo=escape.goid.lan) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1HUmYh-0009V5-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:24:08 -0400 Received: from daydream.goid.lan (IDENT:1000@daydream.goid.lan [192.168.1.10]) by escape.goid.lan (8.13.5.20060614/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l2NGO667024289 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:24:05 -0400 From: Charles Shannon Hendrix To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20070323122405.1a92c3cf@daydream.goid.lan> In-Reply-To: <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> Organization: Big Endian X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.8.0 (GTK+ 2.8.20; i486-slackware-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:24:09 -0000 On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:25:21 +0100 des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav) wrote: =20 > OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be > hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... Hopefully FreeBSD isn't that bloody stupid. --=20 shannon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Star Wars Moral Number 17: Teddy | ...but a planet of wookies would still bears are dangerous in herds. | have been a lot better. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 23 16:26:20 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B91316A404 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:26:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from ca.pugetsoundtechnology.com (ca.pugetsoundtechnology.com [38.99.2.247]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380F413C4C5 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:26:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from pool-71-123-204-253.dllstx.fios.verizon.net ([71.123.204.253] helo=reedmedia.net) by ca.pugetsoundtechnology.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.54) id 1HUmaa-000772-IH; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:26:04 -0700 Received: from reed@reedmedia.net by reedmedia.net with local (mailout 0.17) id 4302-1174667160; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:26:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:26:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200703231554.l2NFsXVb060177@fire.jhs.private> Message-ID: References: <4603D9FF.4070100@xk7.net> <200703231554.l2NFsXVb060177@fire.jhs.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lack of FreeBSD coverage in the UK media X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:26:20 -0000 On Fri, 23 Mar 2007, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Best bet to be paid, might be to go for a USA / world distributed > mag like Dr Dobbs, (that has a hopefully decent turnover to start > with), & sell an article to them & simultaneously give them contacts ... This reminds me. I have offered to co-author for any developers who want to write an article for Dr. Dobb's (or other magazines). I will send a query letter (to the magazine) and help write the article. If anyone wants to write an article but don't know where or how to start, please let me know. There are many new features/techniques in FreeBSD (and other *BSDs) that would be interesting to Dr. Dobb's or other magazines. If you are working on something and want to write (or help write) about it, let me know. Even if you don't want to write, I can interview you to develop the articles. (And I am sure there are other members of the marketing AT FreeBSD.org that would be willing to help too.) Feel free to forward this email. Jeremy C. Reed From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 23 16:40:37 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B51616A403 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:40:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from mail.sw-sec.de (mail.sw-sec.de [212.204.60.86]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 004A713C465 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:40:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Received: from [192.168.115.11] (62-167-21-24.static.adslpremium.ch [62.167.21.24]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.sw-sec.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l2NGeZRf002500 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:40:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from DS@praxisvermittlung24.de) Message-ID: <4604033C.7030209@praxisvermittlung24.de> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:41:32 +0100 From: Daniel Seuffert Organization: Seuffert & Waidmann User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070323122405.1a92c3cf@daydream.goid.lan> In-Reply-To: <20070323122405.1a92c3cf@daydream.goid.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: DS@praxisvermittlung24.de List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:40:37 -0000 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:25:21 +0100 > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) wrote: > > >> OK. That's a clear trademark violation. I expect AllBSD will be >> hearing from the FreeBSD Foundation's lawyers... > > Hopefully FreeBSD isn't that bloody stupid. No, FreeBSD isn't that stupid. Deb Godkin/FreeBSD Foundation asked us to change some things to comply to the guideline here: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/Guidelines.shtml We changed some things in the flyers, website, poster etc., please check yourself. More changes are to come soon. - Daniel