From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 03:57:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9487F1065672 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 03:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clint@0lsen.net) Received: from belle.0lsen.net (belle.0lsen.net [75.150.32.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F5A8FC0A for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 03:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clint@0lsen.net) Received: by belle.0lsen.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 466AE79428; Sat, 31 May 2008 20:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:45:13 -0700 From: Clint Olsen To: stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080601034513.GI29852@0lsen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Organization: NULlsen Network X-Disclaimer: Mutt Bites! Cc: Subject: 6.X potentially has messed up sk0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 03:57:57 -0000 Hi: Since upgrading from 5.4-STABLE to 6.2-RELEASE and now 6.3-STABLE, I've noticed that occasionally sk0 goes weird. I don't quite get it. I was able to connect to it via my local network, but routes to my WAN were completely hosed. So, the machine becomes unable to ping or contact anything that crosses 192.168.1.X. Taking down the interface and bringing it back up via ifconfig fixed it. However, I've seen other cases where the machine can eventually get wedged to the point that nothing can bring it back to life. So, the question is, how can I provide the FreeBSD team something tangible in the way of logs or debug information to prove this is a bug? Thanks, -Clint From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 10:39:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38461106566B for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:39:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joe@tao.org.uk) Received: from mailhost.tao.org.uk (tao.uscs.susx.ac.uk [139.184.131.101]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1467A8FC12 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:39:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joe@tao.org.uk) Received: from genius (wireless59.dhcp.tao.org.uk [82.153.225.59]) (Authenticated sender: joemail@transwarp.tao.org.uk) by mailhost.tao.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611326341; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:39:46 +0100 (BST) From: "Dr Josef Karthauser" To: "'Zaphod Beeblebrox'" , "'Freddie Cash'" References: <48291889.8030406@pldrouin.net> <5f67a8c40805181740v6f655fdjdfaec3312681b5c9@mail.gmail.com> <20080520190804.GA17271@shire.nagual.nl> <200805201249.39201.fjwcash@gmail.com> <5f67a8c40805201747p79e34870qaa842ab034e133d1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5f67a8c40805201747p79e34870qaa842ab034e133d1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:39:46 +0100 Organization: Tao Research Message-ID: <071101c8c3d3$cfa34a40$6ee9dec0$@org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Aci63M+vX1lU4dcQTISemM/oPjWrAgI9t87A Content-Language: en-gb Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Status of ZFS in -stable? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: joe@tao.org.uk List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 10:39:49 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > stable@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Zaphod Beeblebrox > Sent: 21 May 2008 01:48 > To: Freddie Cash > Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Status of ZFS in -stable? > > Correct. If I don't use "verify" ... the backup proceeds normally, but > it's > corrupt. If I turn on verify, the backup stops when it detects the > corruption (somewhere about halfway through). This is with XP using a > Samba-shared ZFS filesystem. When XP uses a samba shared UFS > filesystem, > all is good. Additionally, I tried telling samba _not_ to use mmap() > (there's an option), but this didn't fix things. My guess is that it is still using mmap() somehow; there are definitely corruption problems with zfs and mmap(). Joe From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 12:37:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1331106566B; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:37:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao@matik.com.br) Received: from msrv.matik.com.br (msrv.matik.com.br [200.152.83.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843C88FC19; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:37:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao@matik.com.br) Received: from ap-h.matik.com.br (ap-h.matik.com.br [200.152.83.36]) by msrv.matik.com.br (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m51Cbn4p020551; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:37:49 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from joao@matik.com.br) From: JoaoBR Organization: Infomatik To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-rc@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:41:09 -0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="Boundary-00=_ljpQIYbqfhWA8+B" Message-Id: <200806010941.09448.joao@matik.com.br> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on msrv.matik.com.br X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: zfs start failure when /usr is on zfs (and rcorder change suggestion) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:37:50 -0000 --Boundary-00=_ljpQIYbqfhWA8+B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi when you need /usr/compat on your sistem (linuxfs) and you have /usr on zfs= =20 boot fails because mountcritlocal does not find /usr/compat so I changed the rcorder as you can see in the attached files also I changed /etc/rc.d/zfs and added /etc/rc.d/zfs_swap in order to make = the=20 actual zfs_swap behaviour and configuration a little bit more=20 [user]understandable and easier and working this needs two more rc vars as zfs_swap_enable=3D"YES|NO" zfs_swap_vols=3D"spaced vol_list" using this rc files zfs, swap on zfs and other fs mount fine the changed /etc/rc.d/zfs prevents losing zpools (and later import) as long= as=20 zfs started by this script =2D-=20 Jo=E3o --Boundary-00=_ljpQIYbqfhWA8+B-- A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 12:52:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB91E106564A; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:52:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao@matik.com.br) Received: from msrv.matik.com.br (msrv.matik.com.br [200.152.83.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580BD8FC19; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:52:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao@matik.com.br) Received: from ap-h.matik.com.br (ap-h.matik.com.br [200.152.83.36]) by msrv.matik.com.br (8.14.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m51CqfTQ022078; Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:52:41 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from joao@matik.com.br) From: JoaoBR Organization: Infomatik To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:56:01 -0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200806010941.09448.joao@matik.com.br> In-Reply-To: <200806010941.09448.joao@matik.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806010956.02162.joao@matik.com.br> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on msrv.matik.com.br X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-rc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: zfs start failure when /usr is on zfs (and rcorder change suggestion) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:52:41 -0000 On Sunday 01 June 2008 09:41:09 JoaoBR wrote: > Hi > > when you need /usr/compat on your sistem (linuxfs) and you have /usr on z= fs > boot fails because mountcritlocal does not find /usr/compat > > so I changed the rcorder as you can see in the attached files > > also I changed /etc/rc.d/zfs and added /etc/rc.d/zfs_swap in order to make > the actual zfs_swap behaviour and configuration a little bit more > [user]understandable and easier and working > > this needs two more rc vars as > > zfs_swap_enable=3D"YES|NO" > zfs_swap_vols=3D"spaced vol_list" > > using this rc files zfs, swap on zfs and other fs mount fine > > the changed /etc/rc.d/zfs prevents losing zpools (and later import) as lo= ng > as zfs started by this script seems the attached files were cut, you can get them here: http://suporte.matik.com.br/jm/zfs.rcfiles.tar.gz =2D-=20 Jo=E3o A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 03:31:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84BDF106566B; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:31:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cperciva@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750F78FC0C; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:31:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cperciva@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (cperciva@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m533VVol091528; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:31:31 GMT (envelope-from cperciva@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from cperciva@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m533VVsQ091527; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:31:31 GMT (envelope-from cperciva) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:31:31 +0000 From: FreeBSD Security Officer To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080603033131.GB90341@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD supported branches update X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: security-officer@freebsd.org List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:31:31 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Everyone, The branches supported by the FreeBSD Security Officer have been updated to reflect recent EoL (end-of-life) events. The new list is below and at . FreeBSD 5.5, FreeBSD 6.1, and FreeBSD 6.2 have `expired' and are no longer supported effective June 1, 2008. Users of these releases are advised to upgrade promptly to FreeBSD 6.3 or FreeBSD 7.0, either by downloading an updated source tree and building updates manually, or (for i386 and amd64 systems) using the FreeBSD Update utility as described in the FreeBSD 6.3 and FreeBSD 7.0 release announcements. This marks the end of support by the FreeBSD Security Team for the FreeBSD 5-STABLE branch, and at this time support for running software from the ports tree on FreeBSD 5.x is also ceasing: Packages for binary installations will no longer be built for FreeBSD 5.5, building ports from source on FreeBSD 5.x will no longer be supported, and the ports INDEX will no longer be built and made available via portsnap or the 'make fetchindex' target. Patches for individual ports specific for their functioning on FreeBSD 5.5 may still be accepted at the discretion of the port maintainer. [Excerpt from http://security.freebsd.org/ follows] FreeBSD Security Advisories The FreeBSD Security Officer provides security advisories for several branches of FreeBSD development. These are the -STABLE Branches and the Security Branches. (Advisories are not issued for the -CURRENT Branch.) * There is usually only a single -STABLE branch, although during the transition from one major development line to another (such as from FreeBSD 5.x to 6.x), there is a time span in which there are two -STABLE branches. The -STABLE branch tags have names like RELENG_6. The corresponding builds have names like FreeBSD 6.1-STABLE. * Each FreeBSD Release has an associated Security Branch. The Security Branch tags have names like RELENG_6_1. The corresponding builds have names like FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE-p1. Isses affecting the FreeBSD Ports Collection are covered in the FreeBSD VuXML document. Each branch is supported by the Security Officer for a limited time only, and is designated as one of `Early adopter', `Normal', or `Extended'. The designation is used as a guideline for determining the lifetime of the branch as follows. Early adopter Releases which are published from the -CURRENT branch will be supported by the Security Officer for a minimum of 6 months after the release. Normal Releases which are published from a -STABLE branch will be supported by the Security Officer for a minimum of 12 months after the release. Extended Selected releases will be supported by the Security Officer for a minimum of 24 months after the release. The current designation and estimated lifetimes of the currently supported branches are given below. The Estimated EoL (end-of-life) column gives the earliest date on which that branch is likely to be dropped. Please note that these dates may be extended into the future, but only extenuating circumstances would lead to a branch's support being dropped earlier than the date listed. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Branch | Release | Type | Release date | Estimated EoL | |-----------+-----------+--------+-----------------+-----------------| |RELENG_6 |n/a |n/a |n/a |January 31, 2010 | |-----------+-----------+--------+-----------------+-----------------| |RELENG_6_3 |6.3-RELEASE|Extended|January 18, 2008 |January 31, 2010 | |-----------+-----------+--------+-----------------+-----------------| |RELENG_7 |n/a |n/a |n/a |last release + 2y| |-----------+-----------+--------+-----------------+-----------------| |RELENG_7_0 |7.0-RELEASE|Normal |February 27, 2008|February 28, 2009| +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ [End excerpt] Colin Percival FreeBSD Security Officer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhEe5MACgkQFdaIBMps37IXoQCbB3RkY/s2CA+o/OFkuC/1YvUV rY8An1JawL1x8DdUOlVUL0b2+9N4XZ2v =X+Zm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 07:08:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47391065679 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:08:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A2E8FC0A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:08:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-215-175.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.215.175]) by mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m5378fbw017808 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:08:41 +1000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5378eeu094977 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:08:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m5378e4O094976 for stable@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:08:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:08:40 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RwxaKO075aXzzOz0" Content-Disposition: inline X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Subject: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 07:08:44 -0000 --RwxaKO075aXzzOz0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an on-going problem with DigiBoard Xem boards causing interrupt storms (since 4.x days). The FreeBSD driver polls the board and doesn't have a functional interrupt handler (and Linux behaves in the same way). It seems that under some conditions, the board will assert its interrupt line and, since there's no interrupt handler to clear whatever triggered the interrupt, the IRQ is never unasserted. In the past, I have managed to avoid the problem by putting the Digi card on a dedicated interrupt. For reasons I don't understand, this appears to mask the problem. Unfortunately, I now have a system where, courtesy of Compaq's incompetence, I have no way to avoid having two Digi boards sharing an interrupt. In 7.x, as soon as I load digi.ko, I get "interrupt storm" messages. In 6.x, I could see the interrupt storm but it didn't flood my console with messages. Does anyone have a patch that will generate an appropriate EOI to a DigiBoard? Alternatively, can anyone suggest how I can disable or mask a specified PCI interrupt? --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --RwxaKO075aXzzOz0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhE7fgACgkQ/opHv/APuIcP0wCfVazSofsnai7rdiRIhGLBZxut JcwAoJMZpSYK/8fIA8qV+MSZqfhph96L =cwOt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RwxaKO075aXzzOz0-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 08:47:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F961065674 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:47:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phoemix@harmless.hu) Received: from marvin.harmless.hu (marvin.harmless.hu [195.56.55.204]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF798FC22 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:47:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phoemix@harmless.hu) Received: from fw.publishing.hu ([82.131.181.62] helo=twoflower.in.publishing.hu) by marvin.harmless.hu with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K3Rwo-000Fzm-6P for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:32:50 +0200 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:32:36 +0200 From: CZUCZY Gergely To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080603103236.6f145eef@twoflower.in.publishing.hu> Organization: Harmless Digital X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.4.0 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/=lF0xup95bu5j1FXMz8jvkF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Sender: Czuczy Gergely Subject: ALTQ and cpufreq(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:47:15 -0000 --Sig_/=lF0xup95bu5j1FXMz8jvkF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I've met some quite strange reboots recently on my home gateway. I'm trying to reduce its power consumption, so I've loaded the cpufreq(4) drive= r, and enabled powerd. After this the box started to reboot randomly all over = the place. I started to think what can cause the trouble, removing the cpufreq(= 4) support would be too trivial, so I've removed the ALTQ references from my pf.conf, and surprisingly these accidental reboots gone away. My guess is ALTQ has some problems with cpufreq(4). Before submitting a PR = on this, could someone also check this configuration, to be sure on this? System info: FreeBSD beeblebrox.harmless.lan 6.3-STABLE FreeBSD 6.3-STABLE #0: Sat May 3= 1 18:35:15 CEST 2008 toor@beeblebrox.harmless.lan:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/BEEB= LEBROX i386 I'm using hfsc in my pf configuration. Kernel config: machine i386 cpu I686_CPU ident BEEBLEBROX maxusers 32 # To statically compile in device wiring instead of /boot/device.hints #hints "GENERIC.hints" # Default places to look for device= s. makeoptions DEBUG=3D-g # Build kernel with gdb(1) debug = symbols options SCHED_4BSD # 4BSD scheduler options PREEMPTION # Enable kernel thread preemption options INET # InterNETworking #options INET6 # IPv6 communications protocols options FFS # Berkeley Fast Filesystem options SOFTUPDATES # Enable FFS soft updates support options UFS_ACL # Support for access control lists options UFS_DIRHASH # Improve performance on big direct= ories #options MD_ROOT # MD is a potential root device options NFSCLIENT # Network Filesystem Client options NFSSERVER # Network Filesystem Server #options NFS_ROOT # NFS usable as /, requires NFSCLIE= NT options MSDOSFS # MSDOS Filesystem options CD9660 # ISO 9660 Filesystem options PROCFS # Process filesystem (requires PSEU= DOFS) options PSEUDOFS # Pseudo-filesystem framework options GEOM_GPT # GUID Partition Tables. options COMPAT_43 # Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THI= S!] options COMPAT_FREEBSD4 # Compatible with FreeBSD4 options COMPAT_FREEBSD5 # Compatible with FreeBSD5 options SCSI_DELAY=3D5000 # Delay (in ms) before probing SC= SI options KTRACE # ktrace(1) support options SYSVSHM # SYSV-style shared memory options SYSVMSG # SYSV-style message queues options SYSVSEM # SYSV-style semaphores options _KPOSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING # POSIX P1003_1B real-time extensions options ADAPTIVE_GIANT # Giant mutex is adaptiv= e. device apic # I/O APIC # Bus support. device eisa device pci # Floppy drives device fdc # ATA and ATAPI devices device ata device atadisk # ATA disk drives device ataraid # ATA RAID drives device atapicd # ATAPI CDROM drives #device atapifd # ATAPI floppy drives #device atapist # ATAPI tape drives options ATA_STATIC_ID # Static device numbering # SCSI peripherals device scbus # SCSI bus (required for SCSI) device ch # SCSI media changers device da # Direct Access (disks) device sa # Sequential Access (tape etc) device cd # CD device pass # Passthrough device (direct SCSI access) device ses # SCSI Environmental Services (and SAF-TE) # atkbdc0 controls both the keyboard and the PS/2 mouse device atkbdc # AT keyboard controller device atkbd # AT keyboard device psm # PS/2 mouse device kbdmux # keyboard multiplexer device vga # VGA video card driver #device splash # Splash screen and screen saver support # syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console device sc # Enable this for the pcvt (VT220 compatible) console driver #device vt #options XSERVER # support for X server on a vt console #options FAT_CURSOR # start with block cursor #device agp # support several AGP chipsets # Power management support (see NOTES for more options) #device apm # Add suspend/resume support for the i8254. device pmtimer # PCCARD (PCMCIA) support # PCMCIA and cardbus bridge support device cbb # cardbus (yenta) bridge device pccard # PC Card (16-bit) bus device cardbus # CardBus (32-bit) bus # Serial (COM) ports device sio # 8250, 16[45]50 based serial ports # If you've got a "dumb" serial or parallel PCI card that is # supported by the puc(4) glue driver, uncomment the following # line to enable it (connects to the sio and/or ppc drivers): #device puc # PCI Ethernet NICs. device de # DEC/Intel DC21x4x (``Tulip'') device em # Intel PRO/1000 adapter Gigabit Ethernet C= ard # PCI Ethernet NICs that use the common MII bus controller code. # NOTE: Be sure to keep the 'device miibus' line in order to use these NICs! device miibus # MII bus support device dc # DEC/Intel 21143 and various workalikes device fxp # Intel EtherExpress PRO/100B (82557, 82558) # Pseudo devices. device loop # Network loopback device random # Entropy device device ether # Ethernet support device ppp # Kernel PPP device tun # Packet tunnel. device pty # Pseudo-ttys (telnet etc) device md # Memory "disks" # The `bpf' device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter. # Be aware of the administrative consequences of enabling this! # Note that 'bpf' is required for DHCP. device bpf # Berkeley packet filter # USB support device uhci # UHCI PCI->USB interface device ohci # OHCI PCI->USB interface device ehci # EHCI PCI->USB interface (USB 2.0) device usb # USB Bus (required) #device udbp # USB Double Bulk Pipe devices device ugen # Generic device uhid # "Human Interface Devices" device ukbd # Keyboard device ulpt # Printer device umass # Disks/Mass storage - Requires scbus and da device ums # Mouse options GEOM_MIRROR options GEOM_LABEL options GEOM_ELI device crypto device cryptodev device hifn device tun device tap device pf device pflog options COMPAT_LINUX options ALTQ options ALTQ_CBQ # Class Bases Queueing options ALTQ_RED # Random Early Detection options ALTQ_RIO # RED In/Out options ALTQ_HFSC # Hierarchical Packet Scheduler options ALTQ_PRIQ # Priority Queueing options ALTQ_NOPCC # Required for SMP build device ichwd device sk device netgraph options NETGRAPH_SOCKET options NETGRAPH_ETHER options NETGRAPH_PPPOE options NETGRAPH_DEFLATE device cpufreq altq in pf.conf (these are the lines i've commented out - removed ALTQ -, a= nd the reboots had gone away) : #altq on $if_ppp hfsc bandwidth 512Kb queue { std, ssh, http, ack, vpn, std= ack} #queue std bandwidth 16% priority 0 qlimit 1024 hfsc (default realtime 32Kb= upperlimit 412Kb) #queue http bandwidth 16% priority 2 qlimit 512 hfsc (realtime 16Kb upperli= mit 490Kb ) #queue ssh bandwidth 16% priority 5 qlimit 512 hfsc (realtime 32Kb upperlim= it 490Kb ) #queue stdack bandwidth 16% priority 5 qlimit 1024 hfsc ( realtime 8Kb uppe= rlimit 384Kb) #queue vpn bandwidth 16% priority 6 qlimit 2048 hfsc ( realtime 16Kb upperl= imit 512Kb) #queue ack bandwidth 16% priority 7 qlimit 1024 hfsc ( realtime 8Kb upperli= mit 512Kb) #pass out quick on $if_ppp proto udp from any to any port {14567,14568} kee= p state queue(ssh, ack) #pass out quick on $if_ppp proto tcp from any to port 22 flags S/SA keep st= ate queue (ssh, ack) #pass out quick on $if_ppp proto tcp from any to port {80,443} flags S/SA k= eep state queue (http, ack) #pass out quick on $if_ppp proto tcp from any to 195.56.55.204 port 60080 f= lags S/SA keep state queue (http, ack) #pass out quick on $if_ppp proto tcp from port 60150 to any keep state queu= e(std, stdack) --=20 =C3=9Cdv=C3=B6lettel, Czuczy Gergely Harmless Digital Bt mailto: gergely.czuczy@harmless.hu Tel: +36-30-9702963 --Sig_/=lF0xup95bu5j1FXMz8jvkF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFIRQGmzrC0WyuMkpsRAhlGAJ4/pd3uHCIHaKd9gdKz0GWpBcusCQCffZXg LGsayAYXWKChSLx694GqunM= =Rswa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/=lF0xup95bu5j1FXMz8jvkF-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 08:50:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE70B1065672; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:50:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smarthost1.sentex.ca (smarthost1.sentex.ca [64.7.153.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59368FC1D; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:50:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp2.sentex.ca (smtp2c.sentex.ca [64.7.153.30]) by smarthost1.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m538oIL6083872; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:50:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca [64.7.128.104]) by smtp2.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m538oKKE057412; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:50:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: by freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (Postfix, from userid 666) id 5A2A8241A2; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Sender: FreeBSD Tinderbox From: FreeBSD Tinderbox To: FreeBSD Tinderbox , , Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <20080603085033.5A2A8241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:50:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93/7040/Mon May 5 21:52:15 2008 clamav-milter version 0.93 on clamscanner2 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 64.7.153.18 Cc: Subject: [releng_6 tinderbox] failure on amd64/amd64 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:50:24 -0000 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:25:39 - tinderbox 2.3 running on freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca TB --- 2008-06-03 08:25:39 - starting RELENG_6 tinderbox run for amd64/amd64 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:25:39 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2008-06-03 08:26:23 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2008-06-03 08:26:23 - /usr/bin/csup -r 3 -g -L 1 -h localhost -s /tinderbox/RELENG_6/amd64/amd64/supfile TB --- 2008-06-03 08:26:44 - building world (CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe) TB --- 2008-06-03 08:26:44 - cd /src TB --- 2008-06-03 08:26:44 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld >>> Rebuilding the temporary build tree >>> stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims >>> stage 1.2: bootstrap tools >>> stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree >>> stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree >>> stage 2.3: build tools >>> stage 3: cross tools >>> stage 4.1: building includes >>> stage 4.2: building libraries [...] cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/gettimeofday.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/mktemp.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/putenv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/readv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c In file included from /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c:43: /obj/amd64/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' /obj/amd64/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. TB --- 2008-06-03 08:50:33 - WARNING: /usr/bin/make returned exit code 1 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:50:33 - ERROR: failed to build world TB --- 2008-06-03 08:50:33 - tinderbox aborted TB --- 1119.02 user 149.53 system 1493.36 real http://tinderbox.des.no/tinderbox-releng_6-RELENG_6-amd64-amd64.full From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 09:06:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D941065673; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smarthost1.sentex.ca (smarthost1.sentex.ca [64.7.153.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9929A8FC12; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp2.sentex.ca (smtp2c.sentex.ca [64.7.153.30]) by smarthost1.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m53969Gx084815; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:06:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca [64.7.128.104]) by smtp2.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5396B50096118; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:06:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: by freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (Postfix, from userid 666) id 865C4241A2; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Sender: FreeBSD Tinderbox From: FreeBSD Tinderbox To: FreeBSD Tinderbox , , Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <20080603090624.865C4241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:06:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93/7040/Mon May 5 21:52:15 2008 clamav-milter version 0.93 on clamscanner2 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 64.7.153.18 Cc: Subject: [releng_6 tinderbox] failure on i386/i386 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:06:17 -0000 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:42:30 - tinderbox 2.3 running on freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca TB --- 2008-06-03 08:42:30 - starting RELENG_6 tinderbox run for i386/i386 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:42:30 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2008-06-03 08:43:09 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2008-06-03 08:43:09 - /usr/bin/csup -r 3 -g -L 1 -h localhost -s /tinderbox/RELENG_6/i386/i386/supfile TB --- 2008-06-03 08:43:22 - building world (CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe) TB --- 2008-06-03 08:43:22 - cd /src TB --- 2008-06-03 08:43:22 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld >>> Rebuilding the temporary build tree >>> stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims >>> stage 1.2: bootstrap tools >>> stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree >>> stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree >>> stage 2.3: build tools >>> stage 3: cross tools >>> stage 4.1: building includes >>> stage 4.2: building libraries [...] cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/gettimeofday.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/mktemp.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/putenv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/readv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c In file included from /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c:43: /obj/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' /obj/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:24 - WARNING: /usr/bin/make returned exit code 1 TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:24 - ERROR: failed to build world TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:24 - tinderbox aborted TB --- 1074.62 user 142.95 system 1434.19 real http://tinderbox.des.no/tinderbox-releng_6-RELENG_6-i386-i386.full From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 09:14:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6A0106567B; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:14:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smarthost1.sentex.ca (smarthost1.sentex.ca [64.7.153.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643758FC29; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:14:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp1.sentex.ca (smtp1c.sentex.ca [64.7.153.10]) by smarthost1.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m539E9ro085176; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca [64.7.128.104]) by smtp1.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m539E8T7039825; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: by freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (Postfix, from userid 666) id 4086D241A2; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Sender: FreeBSD Tinderbox From: FreeBSD Tinderbox To: FreeBSD Tinderbox , , Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <20080603091424.4086D241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:14:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93/7040/Mon May 5 21:52:15 2008 clamav-milter version 0.93 on clamscanner2 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 64.7.153.18 Cc: Subject: [releng_6 tinderbox] failure on i386/pc98 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:14:11 -0000 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:50:33 - tinderbox 2.3 running on freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca TB --- 2008-06-03 08:50:33 - starting RELENG_6 tinderbox run for i386/pc98 TB --- 2008-06-03 08:50:33 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2008-06-03 08:51:22 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2008-06-03 08:51:22 - /usr/bin/csup -r 3 -g -L 1 -h localhost -s /tinderbox/RELENG_6/i386/pc98/supfile TB --- 2008-06-03 08:51:35 - building world (CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe) TB --- 2008-06-03 08:51:35 - cd /src TB --- 2008-06-03 08:51:35 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld >>> Rebuilding the temporary build tree >>> stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims >>> stage 1.2: bootstrap tools >>> stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree >>> stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree >>> stage 2.3: build tools >>> stage 3: cross tools >>> stage 4.1: building includes >>> stage 4.2: building libraries [...] cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/gettimeofday.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/mktemp.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/putenv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/readv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind /../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c In file included from /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c:43: /obj/pc98/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' /obj/pc98/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. TB --- 2008-06-03 09:14:24 - WARNING: /usr/bin/make returned exit code 1 TB --- 2008-06-03 09:14:24 - ERROR: failed to build world TB --- 2008-06-03 09:14:24 - tinderbox aborted TB --- 1077.23 user 148.97 system 1430.64 real http://tinderbox.des.no/tinderbox-releng_6-RELENG_6-i386-pc98.full From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 09:28:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44815106568B; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:28:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smarthost1.sentex.ca (smarthost1.sentex.ca [64.7.153.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAF58FC29; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:28:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp2.sentex.ca (smtp2c.sentex.ca [64.7.153.30]) by smarthost1.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m539SM1j085900; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:28:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca [64.7.128.104]) by smtp2.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m539SP3Z048454; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:28:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tinderbox@freebsd.org) Received: by freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca (Postfix, from userid 666) id B425F241A2; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Sender: FreeBSD Tinderbox From: FreeBSD Tinderbox To: FreeBSD Tinderbox , , Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <20080603092837.B425F241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:28:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93/7040/Mon May 5 21:52:15 2008 clamav-milter version 0.93 on clamscanner2 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 64.7.153.18 Cc: Subject: [releng_6 tinderbox] failure on sparc64/sparc64 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:28:25 -0000 TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:24 - tinderbox 2.3 running on freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:24 - starting RELENG_6 tinderbox run for sparc64/sparc64 TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:24 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:55 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2008-06-03 09:06:55 - /usr/bin/csup -r 3 -g -L 1 -h localhost -s /tinderbox/RELENG_6/sparc64/sparc64/supfile TB --- 2008-06-03 09:07:10 - building world (CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe) TB --- 2008-06-03 09:07:10 - cd /src TB --- 2008-06-03 09:07:10 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld >>> Rebuilding the temporary build tree >>> stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims >>> stage 1.2: bootstrap tools >>> stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree >>> stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree >>> stage 2.3: build tools >>> stage 3: cross tools >>> stage 4.1: building includes >>> stage 4.2: building libraries [...] cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DWORDS_BIGENDIAN -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/gettimeofday.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DWORDS_BIGENDIAN -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/mktemp.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DWORDS_BIGENDIAN -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/putenv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DWORDS_BIGENDIAN -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/readv.c cc -O2 -pipe -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/port/freebsd/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind -DVERSION='"9.3.5"' -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBINTERFACE=4 -DLIBREVISION=9 -DLIBAGE=0 -DWANT_IPV6 -DOPENSSL -DUSE_MD5 -DWORDS_BIGENDIAN -DNS_LOCALSTATEDIR='"/var"' -DNS_SYSCONFDIR='"/etc/namedb"' -DNAMED_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/named.conf"' -DRNDC_CONFFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.conf"' -DRNDC_KEYFILE='"/etc/namedb/rndc.key"' -I/src/lib/bind/bind/.. -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind9/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include/dst -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/dns/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../dns -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isccfg/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/nothreads/include -I /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/isc/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../isc -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/unix/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/lwres/include -I/src/lib/bind/bind/../lwres -c /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c In file included from /src/lib/bind/bind/../../../contrib/bind9/lib/bind/bsd/setenv.c:43: /obj/sparc64/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' /obj/sparc64/src/tmp/usr/include/string.h:68: error: conflicting types for 'bcopy' *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib/bind. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src/lib. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /src. TB --- 2008-06-03 09:28:37 - WARNING: /usr/bin/make returned exit code 1 TB --- 2008-06-03 09:28:37 - ERROR: failed to build world TB --- 2008-06-03 09:28:37 - tinderbox aborted TB --- 1052.54 user 145.24 system 1333.09 real http://tinderbox.des.no/tinderbox-releng_6-RELENG_6-sparc64-sparc64.full From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 12:09:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC63C1065681 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mvoorhis@cs.wpi.edu) Received: from mail1.wpi.edu (MAIL1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.91]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E1D8FC14 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mvoorhis@cs.wpi.edu) Received: from mcafee.wpi.edu (MCAFEE.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.86]) by mail1.wpi.edu (8.14.3.Gamma0/8.14.3.Gamma0) with SMTP id m53Bp6WT025457 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:51:06 -0400 Received: from (130.215.36.186) by mcafee.wpi.edu via smtp id 6fcf_597cc186_3163_11dd_9e5f_0013725b2d50; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:51:05 -0300 Received: from cs.wpi.edu (CS.WPI.EDU [130.215.28.181]) by SMTP.WPI.EDU (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53Bp6JN004337 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:51:06 -0400 (envelope-from mvoorhis@cs.wpi.edu) Received: from cs.wpi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs.wpi.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id m53Bp5HN003848 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:51:06 -0400 Received: (from mvoorhis@localhost) by cs.wpi.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m53Bp558003845; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:51:05 -0400 From: Michael C Voorhis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:51:05 -0400 To: stable@freebsd.org X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.4.1 Cc: Subject: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:09:17 -0000 Has anyone tried 7.0-Stable on a Thinkpad t61p. I've been using one for a few weeks and have had many problems, after several event-free years on a t42. My issues are mainly ACPI related--consistent lockups trying to suspend; hangs during shutdown. Have updated the BIOS and I'm going through the list of items in the acpi-debugging list, in the handbook. I'm also having issues with the DVD reader on the machine. I'm mainly curious to know if anyone else is having these problems, and if anyone has comments about the hardware in general. Mike. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 12:22:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172B9106567A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:22:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CFC8FC3C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:22:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C376D1CC033; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:22:18 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Michael C Voorhis Message-ID: <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:22:19 -0000 On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 07:51:05AM -0400, Michael C Voorhis wrote: > > Has anyone tried 7.0-Stable on a Thinkpad t61p. I've been using one > for a few weeks and have had many problems, after several event-free > years on a t42. > > My issues are mainly ACPI related--consistent lockups trying to > suspend; hangs during shutdown. Have updated the BIOS and I'm going > through the list of items in the acpi-debugging list, in the handbook. > > I'm also having issues with the DVD reader on the machine. I'm mainly > curious to know if anyone else is having these problems, Here's what I'm aware of. Apologies on some of these links; some of the participants do not use decent mail clients that utilise thread referencing headers. http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2007-October/037652.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2008-January/039452.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2008-March/041509.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2008-April/041794.html My co-worker runs Kubuntu Linux on his T60p, and it works great. Very decent ACPI support, with full driver support (including H/W monitoring and adjustments). I was quite impressed. > ... and if anyone has comments about the hardware in general. Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. I'm not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching temperatures of almost 70C **while idling**. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 14:52:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CF6106564A; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086988FC20; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:52:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m53Eq8ZV073301; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:21:35 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806031021.35416.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7340/Tue Jun 3 08:03:22 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Peter Jeremy , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:52:33 -0000 On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:08:40 am Peter Jeremy wrote: > I have an on-going problem with DigiBoard Xem boards causing interrupt > storms (since 4.x days). The FreeBSD driver polls the board and > doesn't have a functional interrupt handler (and Linux behaves in the > same way). It seems that under some conditions, the board will assert > its interrupt line and, since there's no interrupt handler to clear > whatever triggered the interrupt, the IRQ is never unasserted. > > In the past, I have managed to avoid the problem by putting the Digi > card on a dedicated interrupt. For reasons I don't understand, this > appears to mask the problem. That is because we leave interrupts masked until it gets an interrupt handler. Since digi(4) doesn't register a handler, we leave the interrupt masked unless some other device is sharing the same interrupt and registers a handler. > Unfortunately, I now have a system where, courtesy of Compaq's > incompetence, I have no way to avoid having two Digi boards sharing an > interrupt. In 7.x, as soon as I load digi.ko, I get "interrupt storm" > messages. In 6.x, I could see the interrupt storm but it didn't > flood my console with messages. > > Does anyone have a patch that will generate an appropriate EOI to > a DigiBoard? No. Even better would be if there was a way to disable interrupt generation in the digi(4) driver via some register. > Alternatively, can anyone suggest how I can disable or mask a specified > PCI interrupt? The problem is that in this case you have another driver that is using that interrupt, so if you completely mask the interrupt the other driver will stop getting interrupts and likely stop working. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 14:52:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CF6106564A; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086988FC20; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:52:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m53Eq8ZV073301; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:21:35 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806031021.35416.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7340/Tue Jun 3 08:03:22 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Peter Jeremy , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:52:33 -0000 On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:08:40 am Peter Jeremy wrote: > I have an on-going problem with DigiBoard Xem boards causing interrupt > storms (since 4.x days). The FreeBSD driver polls the board and > doesn't have a functional interrupt handler (and Linux behaves in the > same way). It seems that under some conditions, the board will assert > its interrupt line and, since there's no interrupt handler to clear > whatever triggered the interrupt, the IRQ is never unasserted. > > In the past, I have managed to avoid the problem by putting the Digi > card on a dedicated interrupt. For reasons I don't understand, this > appears to mask the problem. That is because we leave interrupts masked until it gets an interrupt handler. Since digi(4) doesn't register a handler, we leave the interrupt masked unless some other device is sharing the same interrupt and registers a handler. > Unfortunately, I now have a system where, courtesy of Compaq's > incompetence, I have no way to avoid having two Digi boards sharing an > interrupt. In 7.x, as soon as I load digi.ko, I get "interrupt storm" > messages. In 6.x, I could see the interrupt storm but it didn't > flood my console with messages. > > Does anyone have a patch that will generate an appropriate EOI to > a DigiBoard? No. Even better would be if there was a way to disable interrupt generation in the digi(4) driver via some register. > Alternatively, can anyone suggest how I can disable or mask a specified > PCI interrupt? The problem is that in this case you have another driver that is using that interrupt, so if you completely mask the interrupt the other driver will stop getting interrupts and likely stop working. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 18:49:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E711065679; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:49:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@kuzbass.ru) Received: from www.svzserv.kemerovo.su (www.svzserv.kemerovo.su [213.184.65.80]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3EB08FC18; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:49:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@kuzbass.ru) Received: from www.svzserv.kemerovo.su (eugen@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.svzserv.kemerovo.su (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m53IHCkq077122; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:17:12 +0800 (KRAST) (envelope-from eugen@www.svzserv.kemerovo.su) Received: (from eugen@localhost) by www.svzserv.kemerovo.su (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id m53IHCLX077121; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:17:12 +0800 (KRAST) (envelope-from eugen) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:17:12 +0800 From: Eugene Grosbein To: usb@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080603181712.GA76741@svzserv.kemerovo.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Subject: Support for Nokia USB modems X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:49:57 -0000 Hi! There is PR: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=usb/117185 waiting too way long, it provides patch that makes it possible to use USB modems built in modern Nokia smartphones. The patch is for RELENG_7 and http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=usb/91546 provides the same patch for RELENG_6. There are numerous success cases about various smartphones and the patch. Please consider this. Detailed info inside PRs. Eugene Grosbein From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 19:04:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B7A1065673; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:04:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154AD8FC1E; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:04:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-215-175.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.215.175]) by mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m53J4J3x003937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:04:20 +1000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m53J4JSE084691; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:04:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m53J4IED084690; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:04:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:04:18 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20080603190418.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <200806031021.35416.jhb@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bgLLobvf7eP6VP5c" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200806031021.35416.jhb@freebsd.org> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:04:23 -0000 --bgLLobvf7eP6VP5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2008-Jun-03 10:21:35 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >> In the past, I have managed to avoid the problem by putting the Digi >> card on a dedicated interrupt. For reasons I don't understand, this >> appears to mask the problem. > >That is because we leave interrupts masked until it gets an interrupt hand= ler. >Since digi(4) doesn't register a handler, we leave the interrupt masked=20 >unless some other device is sharing the same interrupt and registers a=20 >handler. This is what I assumed but doesn't explain how having two digi boards that share an interrupt with each other but nothing else winds up with an interrupt storm. I will have to investigate further... >No. Even better would be if there was a way to disable interrupt generati= on=20 >in the digi(4) driver via some register. Agreed. Unfortunately, the only documentation is the Linux driver and it doesn't appear to initialise the digi board any differently to FreeBSD. >> Alternatively, can anyone suggest how I can disable or mask a specified >> PCI interrupt? > >The problem is that in this case you have another driver that is using tha= t=20 >interrupt, so if you completely mask the interrupt the other driver will s= top=20 >getting interrupts and likely stop working. I agree that this approach is a hack - but it will let me work around the problem on the problematic system. BTW, your MUA's list-reply configuration don't recognize that freebsd-stable@ and stable@ are aliases. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --bgLLobvf7eP6VP5c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhFlbIACgkQ/opHv/APuIdXGwCeMw1WvTkZDxeuokFx52bH44hn PBgAmwXo6x/zYHzpEpfbwXlQOAjZKnFa =m39y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bgLLobvf7eP6VP5c-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 19:12:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25CB21065674 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:12:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stevenschlansker@berkeley.edu) Received: from gateway0.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (gateway0.EECS.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.60.93]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127E58FC0C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:12:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stevenschlansker@berkeley.edu) Received: from [192.168.1.111] (adsl-75-18-227-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net [75.18.227.187]) (authenticated bits=0) by gateway0.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.14.3/8.13.5) with ESMTP id m53J1Bhs015180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1FB60F2E-FB30-4118-B5A7-9A818AFF201F@berkeley.edu> From: Steven Schlansker To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:01:06 -0700 References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:12:29 -0000 On Jun 3, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 07:51:05AM -0400, Michael C Voorhis wrote: >> > >> ... and if anyone has comments about the hardware in general. > > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. > I'm > not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching > temperatures of > almost 70C **while idling**. Interesting, I've had almost the opposite experience. I have the T61p with the NVIDIA Quadro card. If I run a game, the video card becomes almost too hot to have on my lap rather quickly (I just put it on a magazine or something and it's fine), but if it's idle the temperature is totally comfortable on my lap. It also takes only about 5 minutes to cool off. The fan is almost silent. Perhaps they fixed the issues you describe with the revision? From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 19:59:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC1E106567A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:59:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from subhro.kar@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.232]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD1F8FC13 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:59:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from subhro.kar@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so617186wra.13 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:59:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=1x54gT1a8tJO/YL4510HEjBzRHm7DFevl87bLgsnyFA=; b=TbDvjOuwLalGj7WInWkYtl4xgOzcaOrE71xk3NEDQ14haO7OjmvANgU3KR/28rWTmYgnLKNQRITlWkglIP46EVsOI6AI0bWhl9Yq1UpP4tcQExdowDYJpUlMZnShJ9i5mU1ytNA0ddb9YF4ZMyKjvGv9gOlsOA4F8b2yG8gHgVM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Rki5ymNFrPMpPau632lnb6o+kgEiR9BH/H8HwfeO9KELmlbjXPGJ+xomQrm9ED710Uqv9T03TN0dtwrAluF+8ZNCuTfxLkJCdeXFYBpYKP8NywHZKwfcZupIoZ7k6duEzEEbeHKlqPgCrrUF4sUHC/toDuBgm+QY/KRRIjoGp+w= Received: by 10.114.200.2 with SMTP id x2mr11787319waf.79.1212521656098; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.15.4 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:04:16 +0530 From: Subhro To: "Steven Schlansker" In-Reply-To: <1FB60F2E-FB30-4118-B5A7-9A818AFF201F@berkeley.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <1FB60F2E-FB30-4118-B5A7-9A818AFF201F@berkeley.edu> Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:59:38 -0000 I had a feeling nvidia does not work with amd64?? Subhro On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Steven Schlansker wrote: > > On Jun 3, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 07:51:05AM -0400, Michael C Voorhis wrote: >>> >> >>> ... and if anyone has comments about the hardware in general. >> >> Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to >> say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these >> laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. I'm >> not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching temperatures of >> almost 70C **while idling**. > > Interesting, I've had almost the opposite experience. I have the T61p with > the NVIDIA Quadro card. If I run a game, the video card becomes almost too > hot to have on my lap rather quickly (I just put it on a magazine or > something and it's fine), but if it's idle the temperature is totally > comfortable on my lap. It also takes only about 5 minutes to cool off. The > fan is almost silent. Perhaps they fixed the issues you describe with the > revision? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Subhro Kar Software Engineer Dynamic Digital Technologies Pvt. Ltd. EPY-3, Sector: V Salt Lake City 700091 India From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 20:09:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BC9106566C for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (chello087206046210.chello.pl [87.206.46.210]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1249A8FC0A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 1872145C99; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (chello087206046210.chello.pl [87.206.46.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E4645C8A; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:39:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:39:40 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: Michael C Voorhis Message-ID: <20080603193940.GB2637@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT i386 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:09:55 -0000 --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 07:51:05AM -0400, Michael C Voorhis wrote: >=20 > Has anyone tried 7.0-Stable on a Thinkpad t61p. I've been using one > for a few weeks and have had many problems, after several event-free > years on a t42. >=20 > My issues are mainly ACPI related--consistent lockups trying to > suspend; hangs during shutdown. Have updated the BIOS and I'm going > through the list of items in the acpi-debugging list, in the handbook. I see some lockups from time to time that I can't even get into DDB, but its very rare. Forget about suspend/resume - it doesn't work on any SMP machine. There were some patches posted on freebsd-acpi@ for suspend/resume SMP support, but they didn't work for me. I see no problems with shutdown (if I don't use mentioned patches). Other than that it works quite ok. Unfortunately because of nvidia driver limitation I can't run amd64 or PAE. > I'm also having issues with the DVD reader on the machine. I'm mainly > curious to know if anyone else is having these problems, and if anyone > has comments about the hardware in general. I haven't tried DVD too much, but it's the same reader I had in T43 I think. --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFIRZ37ForvXbEpPzQRAul8AKCNNt1IyBPaYsHDFi1WguK34t2E1gCggMWV 428GldCYlezDywzZM+8iN04= =5j8h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 21:20:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51D21065672 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:20:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F988FC22 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:20:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 22278 invoked by uid 399); 3 Jun 2008 21:07:13 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 3 Jun 2008 21:07:13 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4845AF6E.5080709@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:54:06 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080525) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Tinderbox References: <20080603090624.865C4241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> In-Reply-To: <20080603090624.865C4241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030409080700030807010201" Cc: stable@freebsd.org, i386@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [releng_6 tinderbox] failure on i386/i386 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:20:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030409080700030807010201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about the breakage folks, my test run last night before I committed the update went fine, so I'm not sure what happened here, still investigating. If you need to build -stable now the attached patch should be applied to src/lib/bind/bind/config.h, and it should work. I'm testing again now. I'll commit the fix as soon as I am sure it is the right one. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection --------------030409080700030807010201 Content-Type: text/plain; name="config-h.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="config-h.diff" Index: config.h =================================================================== --- config.h (revision 179496) +++ config.h (working copy) @@ -14,6 +14,8 @@ /* #undef POSIX_GETPWNAM_R */ /* #undef POSIX_GETGRGID_R */ /* #undef POSIX_GETGRNAM_R */ +#define HAVE_MEMMOVE +#define HAVE_MEMCHR /* #undef NEED_SETGROUPENT */ /* #undef NEED_GETGROUPLIST */ --------------030409080700030807010201-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 22:09:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6E5106566C; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:09:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nakal@web.de) Received: from waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de [129.217.4.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBB48FC0C; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nakal@web.de) Received: from postamt.cs.uni-dortmund.de (postamt [129.217.4.40]) by waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de with ESMTP id m53LldIO008119; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:47:39 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zelda.local (pD9EC3B09.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.236.59.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by postamt.cs.uni-dortmund.de (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m53LlbCm008943 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:47:38 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:47:36 +0200 From: Martin To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20080603234736.65737e6c@zelda.local> In-Reply-To: <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> Organization: Technische =?UTF-8?B?VW5pdmVyc2l0w6R0?= Dortmund X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.4.0 (GTK+ 2.12.9; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: koitsu@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:09:48 -0000 On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:22:18 -0700 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. > I'm not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching > temperatures of almost 70C **while idling**. Hallo, I can confirm this. I've got a T60p Lenovo Thinkpad here. This laptop is very lazy with speeding up the fan, when using automatic fan settings. I've got CPU temperatures up to 101=C2=B0C here, while compiling world or ports. At this point the laptop powers off. The fan works. I checked it. The fan is far too slow, when setting it to highest level: dev.acpi_ibm.0.fan_speed: 3745 dev.acpi_ibm.0.fan_level: 7 dev.acpi_ibm.0.fan: 0 I'm not sure, but I think I've seen it at 4300 and almost 5000 rpm earlier at high temperatures around 90=C2=B0C. Today it always stays below 4000 rpm, even at 100=C2=B0C. Second problem is that the VGA sits under the same heat sink as the CPU. The GPU or chipset is constantly at 75=C2=B0C minimum, because FreeBSD-powerd does not adjust the voltage settings of the VGA and always runs it at full power. This heats up the CPU additionally. I have a small script that automatically adapts the CPU speed, so it stays below 75=C2=B0C while compiling big things. Optionally one can set the CPU speed to 1667MHz manually while compiling. --=20 Martin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 22:33:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C95D1065677 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:33:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C401C8FC1B for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:32:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 24074 invoked by uid 399); 3 Jun 2008 22:45:54 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 3 Jun 2008 22:45:54 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4845C677.3080702@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:32:23 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080525) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stable@freebsd.org References: <20080603090624.865C4241A2@freebsd-legacy.sentex.ca> <4845AF6E.5080709@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4845AF6E.5080709@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: [releng_6 tinderbox] failure on i386/i386 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:33:00 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > Sorry about the breakage folks, my test run last night before I > committed the update went fine, so I'm not sure what happened here, > still investigating. If you need to build -stable now the attached patch > should be applied to src/lib/bind/bind/config.h, and it should work. I'm > testing again now. > > I'll commit the fix as soon as I am sure it is the right one. Ok, done. Once again, sorry for the hassle. Every time I think I've found and fixed all the possible failure modes for a BIND update, I stumble into new ones. Time to update my notes ... Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 3 23:16:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACBF1065683 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:16:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nakal@web.de) Received: from fmmailgate02.web.de (fmmailgate02.web.de [217.72.192.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6634C8FC0A for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:16:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nakal@web.de) Received: from smtp08.web.de (fmsmtp08.dlan.cinetic.de [172.20.5.216]) by fmmailgate02.web.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF20DFD38AF; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 00:49:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [217.236.59.9] (helo=zelda.local) by smtp08.web.de with asmtp (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (WEB.DE 4.109 #226) id 1K3fK7-0007hP-00; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:49:47 +0200 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 00:49:44 +0200 From: Martin To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek Message-ID: <20080604004944.1138b33f@zelda.local> In-Reply-To: <20080603193940.GB2637@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603193940.GB2637@garage.freebsd.pl> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.4.0 (GTK+ 2.12.9; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nakal@web.de X-Sender: nakal@web.de X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19ODH6iC56TULUyQFnsFjrVs1xeHbxo225rtwiw ZQfmQTj3CuxhqRB+OiCLV6ngx+f4aNcd4/Q3HFXONOVtemDLJB k89m9rJzE= Cc: Michael C Voorhis , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:16:21 -0000 Am Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:39:40 +0200 schrieb Pawel Jakub Dawidek : > I see some lockups from time to time that I can't even get into DDB, > but its very rare. Just in case you have 2 different DIMMs in your Thinkpad (even they have same so called "FRU"), try to remove one of them. My T60p got more stable. I could reproduce a full freeze on every platform including MS-Windows, when putting a Thinkpad under high load. Easy with compiling 4 openssl distributions concurrently, in my case. You should accept only exactly the same DIMMs in a T60p Thinkpad. And you should stress this when talking on the hotline or they send you DIMMs with equal FRU number. -- Martin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 02:25:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC7A1065673 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:25:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unixmania@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C188FC13 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:25:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unixmania@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so223535uge.37 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=KgHcgaNkA8GnFni5QBYFm6Nx+5UXTAaL1B2Vd1AKrQk=; b=BrEoOTiNKGP/ULnB/nu7f0t2lXg/dY8+p4Eq/OFRYZoP0NUiI6ApjmY+sY5OmQbYjy z38CuWtpaW0/uzhKQlkowcH0gaYcB5JRL/exkZV9m61G/aYH8lNMEVR+GU+bI/7SnVgc rcPk9klKOsglqZJVx5IzQgL8TC6ek1CKVlix4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=FU8oPn0WUXRCIP/t4fiHpfUqmbexCTckkgZCVMfuszIDvn1P36KZ3IdlTM/e6QE4t+ TbPuOsFOXanCTR6R8a5hnq12d/yHPipg5AnARACwFhm2WxEU212vapg1+XyC7/2dIHcm hrXF0h2HxzpaN8N9k3kfjncLh0iiNrvkOzcH0= Received: by 10.67.87.6 with SMTP id p6mr343564ugl.39.1212546310527; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.234.1 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:25:09 -0300 From: "Carlos A. M. dos Santos" To: "Jeremy Chadwick" In-Reply-To: <20080526062417.GA61084@eos.sc1.parodius.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080526062417.GA61084@eos.sc1.parodius.com> Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: Why does sysinstall still limits cylinders to 65535? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:25:12 -0000 On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 11:52:06PM -0300, Carlos A. M. dos Santos wrote: >> I have been struglling with sysinstall, attempting to make it handle >> the geometry of some large SATA drives. After a lot of effort I >> decided to stop suffering and modified the program in order to >> circumvent the outdated limit of 65535 cylinders (see attached patch). >> I'm thinking about submitting a PR with a change request but I'd like >> to get some additional opinions first. I did not test it in "batch" >> mode, so it would be great if any kind soul did this. > > Carlos, bottom line is to simply ignore the geometry warning you see. > > For others... > > This is just added evidence that the humongous warning spit out during > sysinstall's fdisk is confusing users (many taking it very seriously > when there's really no problem at all). > > I think this is the third time someone's brought this up in the past > couple months... Sorry if I sound annoying but nobody else answered. I still believe that something must be done to fix sysinstall, so I'm asking you (where "you" means the "others" in Jeremy's message) to provide some additional feedback. Please fill-in the dots in one or more of the following options: 1. We can not make such change sysinstall because ... 2. Your patch is not correct/sufficient. I would be better if ... 3. Please submit a PR. It will momentarily be reviewed by ... 4. Give up. Nobody here cares about this issue. Thanks in advance. -- Carlos A. M. dos Santos From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 02:49:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA961065678 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:49:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED258FC15 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:49:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 12894 invoked by uid 399); 4 Jun 2008 03:02:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 4 Jun 2008 03:02:59 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <484602C5.7000400@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:49:41 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carlos A. M. dos Santos" References: <20080526062417.GA61084@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jeremy Chadwick , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: Why does sysinstall still limits cylinders to 65535? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:49:54 -0000 Carlos A. M. dos Santos wrote: > On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: >> On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 11:52:06PM -0300, Carlos A. M. dos Santos wrote: >>> I have been struglling with sysinstall, attempting to make it handle >>> the geometry of some large SATA drives. After a lot of effort I >>> decided to stop suffering and modified the program in order to >>> circumvent the outdated limit of 65535 cylinders (see attached patch). >>> I'm thinking about submitting a PR with a change request but I'd like >>> to get some additional opinions first. I did not test it in "batch" >>> mode, so it would be great if any kind soul did this. >> Carlos, bottom line is to simply ignore the geometry warning you see. >> >> For others... >> >> This is just added evidence that the humongous warning spit out during >> sysinstall's fdisk is confusing users (many taking it very seriously >> when there's really no problem at all). >> >> I think this is the third time someone's brought this up in the past >> couple months... > > Sorry if I sound annoying but nobody else answered. I still believe > that something must be done to fix sysinstall, so I'm asking you > (where "you" means the "others" in Jeremy's message) to provide some > additional feedback. Please fill-in the dots in one or more of the > following options: > > 1. We can not make such change sysinstall because ... > > 2. Your patch is not correct/sufficient. I would be better if ... > > 3. Please submit a PR. It will momentarily be reviewed by ... > > 4. Give up. Nobody here cares about this issue. 5. -stable is not the right list to discuss sysinstall issues. freebsd-hackers would be the first choice, if you don't get a response there, -current would be the next. Send the PR first, and in your message give a brief background of your issue and a URL for the PR. That way when it gets reviewed the feedback will be consolidated into one convenient location. If you want "momentary" review for your work, open source is probably not the arena you should be looking to contribute in. hth, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 12:16:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4EC106567D; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:16:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nlaroche@vt.edu) Received: from lennier.cc.vt.edu (lennier.cc.vt.edu [198.82.162.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404708FC1E; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:16:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nlaroche@vt.edu) Received: from vivi.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:mirapoint@evil-vivi.cc.vt.edu [10.1.1.12]) by lennier.cc.vt.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53FDS76021549; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:13:28 -0400 Received: from imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (imp.cc.vt.edu [198.82.161.55]) by vivi.cc.vt.edu (MOS 3.8.6-GA) with ESMTP id JLR93538; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m53FDRuN025377; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:13:27 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m53FDRbN025376; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:13:27 -0400 Received: from bos-gate4.raytheon.com (bos-gate4.raytheon.com [199.46.154.96]) by webmail.vt.edu (IMP) with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:13:27 -0400 Message-ID: <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:13:27 -0400 From: nlaroche@vt.edu To: nlaroche@vt.edu References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <1212505961.48455f69d37b8@webmail.vt.edu> In-Reply-To: <1212505961.48455f69d37b8@webmail.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.8 X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=vivi.cc.vt.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090209.48455F98.022E,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=199.46.154.96, so=2007-10-30 19:00:17, dmn=5.4.3/2007-10-19 X-Junkmail-IWF: false Cc: Jeremy Chadwick , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:16:19 -0000 Quoting nlaroche@vt.edu: > Quoting Jeremy Chadwick : > > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. I'm > > not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching temperatures of > > almost 70C **while idling**. > > I purchased a T60p about two months ago and I haven't had any of these happen > (yet?) running Ubuntu 7.10. The machine only gets slightly warm to the touch > after a few hours idling. > > Does your fan run all the time that loud? I'm wondering if there were changes > made at the factory to fix this type of problem if it was wide spread. > > Regards, > Nick LaRoche > > That was a T61p not a T60p From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 12:25:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22A11065672 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:25:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCC58FC0A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:25:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9C0E71CC031; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:25:13 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: nlaroche@vt.edu Message-ID: <20080604122513.GA24093@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <1212505961.48455f69d37b8@webmail.vt.edu> <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:25:13 -0000 On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 11:13:27AM -0400, nlaroche@vt.edu wrote: > Quoting nlaroche@vt.edu: > > Quoting Jeremy Chadwick : > > > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > > > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > > > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. I'm > > > not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching temperatures of > > > almost 70C **while idling**. > > > > I purchased a T60p about two months ago and I haven't had any of these happen > > (yet?) running Ubuntu 7.10. The machine only gets slightly warm to the touch > > after a few hours idling. > > > > Does your fan run all the time that loud? I'm wondering if there were changes > > made at the factory to fix this type of problem if it was wide spread. > > > > Regards, > > Nick LaRoche > > That was a T61p not a T60p It really doesn't matter in this case; T60p, T60p (widescreen), T61p, X60p, etc... They all behave the same way when it comes to temperatures: incredibly high, sometimes to the point of the system shutting off (for some). -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 12:34:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C95F106564A; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:34:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nlaroche@vt.edu) Received: from lennier.cc.vt.edu (lennier.cc.vt.edu [198.82.162.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3423C8FC1D; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:34:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nlaroche@vt.edu) Received: from dagger.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:mirapoint@evil-dagger.cc.vt.edu [10.1.1.11]) by lennier.cc.vt.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m53FCg9T021245; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:12:42 -0400 Received: from imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (imp.cc.vt.edu [198.82.161.55]) by dagger.cc.vt.edu (MOS 3.8.6-GA) with ESMTP id JOU23797; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m53FCgST025336; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:12:42 -0400 Received: (from apache@localhost) by imp-b08.cc.vt.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m53FCfJu025335; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:12:41 -0400 Received: from bos-gate4.raytheon.com (bos-gate4.raytheon.com [199.46.154.96]) by webmail.vt.edu (IMP) with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:12:41 -0400 Message-ID: <1212505961.48455f69d37b8@webmail.vt.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:12:41 -0400 From: nlaroche@vt.edu To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.8 Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:34:45 -0000 Quoting Jeremy Chadwick : > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. I'm > not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching temperatures of > almost 70C **while idling**. I purchased a T60p about two months ago and I haven't had any of these happen (yet?) running Ubuntu 7.10. The machine only gets slightly warm to the touch after a few hours idling. Does your fan run all the time that loud? I'm wondering if there were changes made at the factory to fix this type of problem if it was wide spread. Regards, Nick LaRoche From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 13:04:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9B01065673 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:04:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABE38FC17 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:04:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6034C1CC031; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 06:04:34 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: nlaroche@vt.edu Message-ID: <20080604130434.GA24817@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <20080603122218.GA69827@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <1212505961.48455f69d37b8@webmail.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1212505961.48455f69d37b8@webmail.vt.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:04:35 -0000 On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 11:12:41AM -0400, nlaroche@vt.edu wrote: > Quoting Jeremy Chadwick : > > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. I'm > > not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching temperatures of > > almost 70C **while idling**. > > I purchased a T60p about two months ago and I haven't had any of these happen > (yet?) running Ubuntu 7.10. The machine only gets slightly warm to the touch > after a few hours idling. I pointed out earlier in the thread that Linux appears to have full ACPI support for the Thinkpad series, including extras -- which probably manage some of the thermal-related features better. > Does your fan run all the time that loud? Within 10-15 seconds of logging in (to Vista), the fan kicks on medium speed. As we all know, Vista enjoys chewing CPU and disk prior to and after logging in, and takes about 5 minutes to relax (assuming you disable Indexing, ReadyBoost, and SuperFetch). After about 10-15 minutes, the fan usually kicks into high mode, and remains that way until the laptop has a chance to go into sleep/power save mode -- or, if the rear of the laptop is raised up off the desk. The amount of hot air coming out of the fan slot on the left side is fairly substantial, indicating the overall design of the laptop is bad, thermal-wise. A couple of my co-workers (but only a few!) do not have this problem. Their laptops run with the fan off, or in low mode. When we were all using XP, I had them run the Thinkpad monitoring utility (an open-source app) to look at the thermals of all the different parts in the system. Their temps were substantially lower than mine (particularly the GPU), but in others, were higher. This could indicate a problem similar to Apple and their Macbooks, where assembly line folks were applying entire tubes of thermal compound to the CPU heatsink area. I haven't taken the time to open one of the Lenovo laptops up -- company rules don't permit me to do so, and I don't trust the coherency of our IT department anyways. ("Sounds isolated, better just replace the entire laptop" "Umm, no...") There are other problems with these laptops, not just thermal-related. The laptop emits high-pitch noises as a result of some power-saving modes the Centrino Duo chipset has. They've been documented in full on the RMClock forum, and there are workarounds using either RMClock or (my preferred method) turning off two options in the BIOS. If you can't hear the noise, then your hearing isn't as sensitive as some peoples. I can dig up the exact BIOS labels if you'd like them. > I'm wondering if there were changes made at the factory to fix this > type of problem if it was wide spread. Possibly. There's quite a lot of evidence on the Web about this problem with Lenovo laptops. IBM/Lenovo's T43 series did not behave this way, but they were on older (cooler, temperature-wise) hardware. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 13:06:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA649106564A; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (cenn.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CD28FC22; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:06:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from mail.tcbug.org (mail.tcbug.org [208.42.70.163]) by cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C9D81A2; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:45:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from build64.tcbug.org (unknown [208.42.70.167]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.tcbug.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 975F7558B54; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:45:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Josh Paetzel To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:45:12 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> <20080604122513.GA24093@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080604122513.GA24093@eos.sc1.parodius.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1533427.3Tut7xWMFY"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200806040745.19637.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: Jeremy Chadwick , nlaroche@vt.edu Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:06:30 -0000 --nextPart1533427.3Tut7xWMFY Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday 04 June 2008 07:25:13 am Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 11:13:27AM -0400, nlaroche@vt.edu wrote: > > Quoting nlaroche@vt.edu: > > > Quoting Jeremy Chadwick : > > > > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe = to > > > > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of the= se > > > > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan.= =20 > > > > I'm not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching > > > > temperatures of almost 70C **while idling**. > > > > > > I purchased a T60p about two months ago and I haven't had any of these > > > happen (yet?) running Ubuntu 7.10. The machine only gets slightly warm > > > to the touch after a few hours idling. > > > > > > Does your fan run all the time that loud? I'm wondering if there were > > > changes made at the factory to fix this type of problem if it was wide > > > spread. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Nick LaRoche > > > > That was a T61p not a T60p > > It really doesn't matter in this case; T60p, T60p (widescreen), T61p, > X60p, etc... They all behave the same way when it comes to > temperatures: incredibly high, sometimes to the point of the system > shutting off (for some). My T60p is really unusable for anything cpu intensive under FreeBSD. Even= =20 with the ibm acpi addons loaded and the fan set to it's highest setting it= =20 only turns at 3700rpm, which isn't enough to keep it from shutting down due= =20 to heat. (eg over 100C) I'm interested in whatever cooling solutions people have... =2D-=20 Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB --nextPart1533427.3Tut7xWMFY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkhGjl8ACgkQJvkB8Sevrsv1xQCdFaCpDi5H0m3y7s7plBLB4ziJ WhkAoITgiluSiAdWTnr/JypcDSxEgGwy =/cLs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1533427.3Tut7xWMFY-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 13:54:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709CB106564A; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:54:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from richard@unixguru.nl) Received: from mx1.unixguru.nl (mx1.unixguru.nl [77.37.12.119]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262AD8FC0C; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:54:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from richard@unixguru.nl) Received: from mail.unixguru.nl (www.unixguru.nl [217.122.37.210]) by mx1.unixguru.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B14A1FA1D; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:29:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.unixguru.nl [127.0.0.1]) by mail.unixguru.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB16811428; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:27:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at unixguru.nl Received: from mail.unixguru.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.unixguru.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XnLnTVJicEuy; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:27:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (shell.unixguru.nl [192.168.10.20]) by mail.unixguru.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A034311422; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:27:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:26:29 +0200 From: Richard Arends To: Josh Paetzel Message-ID: <20080604132629.GI37038@shell.unixguru.nl> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> <20080604122513.GA24093@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <200806040745.19637.josh@tcbug.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200806040745.19637.josh@tcbug.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Jeremy Chadwick , nlaroche@vt.edu, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:54:18 -0000 On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 07:45:12AM -0500, Josh Paetzel wrote: Hi, > I'm interested in whatever cooling solutions people have... For my T60 i made a perl script for controlling the fans and the cpu speed. A few months ago i changed it to work together with powerd and i must say, i got it pretty workable now. With a normal workload (browsing the internet, reading mail, ssh'ing to control the rest of the world), the temp is under 60 degrees. http://www.unixguru.nl/made/ibm_fancontrol_fbsd.txt -- Regards, Richard. /* Homo Sapiens non urinat in ventum */ From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 15:07:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CEE106566C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:07:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from falcon.cybervisiontech.com (falcon.cybervisiontech.com [217.20.163.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70FA08FC0A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:07:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.cybervisiontech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF83A744008 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:07:48 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at falcon.cybervisiontech.com Received: from falcon.cybervisiontech.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (falcon.cybervisiontech.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gUqSOdLqMeOY for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:07:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [10.2.1.87] (gateway.cybervisiontech.com.ua [91.198.50.114]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by falcon.cybervisiontech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84BCA744007 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:07:48 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:07:47 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080513) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: mystery: lock up after fs dump X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:07:51 -0000 I wouldn't report this if not for one coincidence (which is described below). I have too little facts, so this is more of a mystery problem tale than a real problem report. There are two systems: 1. old, slow, i386, UP, 7-STABLE 2. new, fast, amd64, MP, 6.3-RELEASE Systems are located at different physical locations. What is common between them: 1. they both have the same backup strategy where dumps of certain levels are performed on certain days; there are monthly dumps of level 2 (on first day of each month), weekly dumps of level 4 (each Sunday) and daily dumps of levels > 5 (each day except for Sunday - but including the firsts). dumps are done on live filesystems using -L. dumps are initially done to the same disk and only later are transfered to archive media. 2. both kernels are compiled with softupdates support but there are no filesystems with it enabled 3. both systems have root partition gmirror-ed, it is dumped 4. both systems have gjournal support (on 6.X it is added via a "non-official" patch), there are gjournaled filesystems on both systems and they are dumped. On June 1 (Sunday) exactly the same thing happened on both systems. At 4AM monthly level 2 dump was started and successfully performed. At 5AM weekly level 4 dump was started. Somewhere in the process of it system locked up. When I physically accessed the systems I found the following: keyboard didn't respond[*], screen froze, no pings. After reset I found that logs stopped being updated at some timer shortly after 5AM. [*] - although on amd64 system I was able to switch exactly once between virtual terminals (actually from X terminal to console terminal). But that's all, no led responses, no special combinations (like break to debugger - it is compiled in / enabled). This coincidence in details (and that one successful VT switch) lead me to believe that this was some lock up in kernel rather than a hardware problem. Also, I use that backup scheme for almost a year and never had such a problem before. I just checked and this was the first time that the 1st of a month fell on Sunday, so this was the first time when level 2 dump was followed by level 4 dump. In previous months it was followed by level > 6 dumps. All in all, quite strange. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 15:23:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B721065675 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:23:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (skuns.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78AA8FC22 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (root@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua [10.1.1.148]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54FNWQm013212 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:23:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54FNWjP050700; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:23:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m54FNWpH050690; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:23:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:23:32 +0300 From: Kostik Belousov To: Andriy Gapon Message-ID: <20080604152332.GE63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ggCU0ZO/FnK1VHVi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mystery: lock up after fs dump X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:23:38 -0000 --ggCU0ZO/FnK1VHVi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 06:07:47PM +0300, Andriy Gapon wrote: >=20 > I wouldn't report this if not for one coincidence (which is described > below). I have too little facts, so this is more of a mystery problem > tale than a real problem report. >=20 > There are two systems: > 1. old, slow, i386, UP, 7-STABLE > 2. new, fast, amd64, MP, 6.3-RELEASE >=20 > Systems are located at different physical locations. >=20 > What is common between them: > 1. they both have the same backup strategy where dumps of certain levels > are performed on certain days; there are monthly dumps of level 2 (on > first day of each month), weekly dumps of level 4 (each Sunday) and > daily dumps of levels > 5 (each day except for Sunday - but including > the firsts). > dumps are done on live filesystems using -L. > dumps are initially done to the same disk and only later are transfered > to archive media. > 2. both kernels are compiled with softupdates support but there are no > filesystems with it enabled > 3. both systems have root partition gmirror-ed, it is dumped > 4. both systems have gjournal support (on 6.X it is added via a > "non-official" patch), there are gjournaled filesystems on both systems > and they are dumped. >=20 > On June 1 (Sunday) exactly the same thing happened on both systems. > At 4AM monthly level 2 dump was started and successfully performed. > At 5AM weekly level 4 dump was started. > Somewhere in the process of it system locked up. > When I physically accessed the systems I found the following: keyboard > didn't respond[*], screen froze, no pings. After reset I found that logs > stopped being updated at some timer shortly after 5AM. > [*] - although on amd64 system I was able to switch exactly once between > virtual terminals (actually from X terminal to console terminal). But > that's all, no led responses, no special combinations (like break to > debugger - it is compiled in / enabled). >=20 > This coincidence in details (and that one successful VT switch) lead me > to believe that this was some lock up in kernel rather than a hardware > problem. Also, I use that backup scheme for almost a year and never had > such a problem before. I just checked and this was the first time that > the 1st of a month fell on Sunday, so this was the first time when level > 2 dump was followed by level 4 dump. In previous months it was followed > by level > 6 dumps. >=20 > All in all, quite strange. Do you use snapshots on the gjournaled fs ? I believe this is problematic. --ggCU0ZO/FnK1VHVi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhGs3MACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4gouwCeLqtskITew8R5UU8xJhfzXL2w Qf8AoL1cafJuvrEvYaWwc5MI2fqZ8GLe =920D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ggCU0ZO/FnK1VHVi-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 15:33:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80906106564A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:33:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from falcon.cybervisiontech.com (falcon.cybervisiontech.com [217.20.163.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDB08FC1A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:33:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.cybervisiontech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8CE744009; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:33:48 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at falcon.cybervisiontech.com Received: from falcon.cybervisiontech.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (falcon.cybervisiontech.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rzm-i3jPZJdH; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:33:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [10.2.1.87] (gateway.cybervisiontech.com.ua [91.198.50.114]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by falcon.cybervisiontech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BDE744008; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:33:47 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4846B5D9.1050903@icyb.net.ua> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:33:45 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080513) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kostik Belousov References: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> <20080604152332.GE63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> In-Reply-To: <20080604152332.GE63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-U Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mystery: lock up after fs dump X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:33:49 -0000 on 04/06/2008 18:23 Kostik Belousov said the following: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 06:07:47PM +0300, Andriy Gapon wrote: [snip] >> dumps are done on live filesystems using -L. [snip] >> 4. both systems have gjournal support (on 6.X it is added via a >> "non-official" patch), there are gjournaled filesystems on both systems >> and they are dumped. > > Do you use snapshots on the gjournaled fs ? I believe this is problematic. Yes, I do via dump -L. I don't otherwise (no mksnap_ffs). I had some thoughts about that. But... I remember discussing this on geom list and I think pjd said that this should work and also it worked for me flawlessly except for that one moment. BTW, those filesystems are mounted like the following: ufs, asynchronous, local, noatime, gjournal This is to say that I do not mix gjournal and softupdates, which is also possible (at least not prohibited). -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 15:41:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F448106566B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:41:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868E18FC1D for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:41:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2546C1CC031; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:41:51 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Andriy Gapon Message-ID: <20080604154151.GA29932@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> <20080604152332.GE63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <4846B5D9.1050903@icyb.net.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4846B5D9.1050903@icyb.net.ua> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Kostik Belousov , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mystery: lock up after fs dump X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:41:51 -0000 On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 06:33:45PM +0300, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 04/06/2008 18:23 Kostik Belousov said the following: > > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 06:07:47PM +0300, Andriy Gapon wrote: > [snip] > >> dumps are done on live filesystems using -L. > [snip] > >> 4. both systems have gjournal support (on 6.X it is added via a > >> "non-official" patch), there are gjournaled filesystems on both systems > >> and they are dumped. > > > > Do you use snapshots on the gjournaled fs ? I believe this is problematic. > > Yes, I do via dump -L. I don't otherwise (no mksnap_ffs). > I had some thoughts about that. > But... I remember discussing this on geom list and I think pjd said that > this should work and also it worked for me flawlessly except for that > one moment. > BTW, those filesystems are mounted like the following: > ufs, asynchronous, local, noatime, gjournal > This is to say that I do not mix gjournal and softupdates, which is also > possible (at least not prohibited). I haven't seen hard system lock-ups when using dump (the -L on UFS2 systems is implied, but you're not using softupdates, so maybe it's not implied on such), but I have seen all I/O on the system lock up hard until the actual snapshot finishes being taken. I mentioned this a while ago on -stable (not sure; I can dig up the thread), and was told that essentially this is a known problem with snapshots on UFS2, and that the problem over time gets worse and worse. Ultimately I stopped using dump and switched to rsync. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 16:10:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02581065674 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (skuns.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373488FC22 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:10:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (root@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua [10.1.1.148]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54GA1Op017346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:10:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54GA1U8024178; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:10:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m54GA1ma024174; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:10:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:10:01 +0300 From: Kostik Belousov To: Andriy Gapon Message-ID: <20080604161001.GF63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> <20080604152332.GE63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <4846B5D9.1050903@icyb.net.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3ozdenm5Azl6mQ8k" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4846B5D9.1050903@icyb.net.ua> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mystery: lock up after fs dump X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:10:07 -0000 --3ozdenm5Azl6mQ8k Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 06:33:45PM +0300, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 04/06/2008 18:23 Kostik Belousov said the following: > > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 06:07:47PM +0300, Andriy Gapon wrote: > [snip] > >> dumps are done on live filesystems using -L. > [snip] > >> 4. both systems have gjournal support (on 6.X it is added via a > >> "non-official" patch), there are gjournaled filesystems on both systems > >> and they are dumped. > >=20 > > Do you use snapshots on the gjournaled fs ? I believe this is problemat= ic. >=20 > Yes, I do via dump -L. I don't otherwise (no mksnap_ffs). > I had some thoughts about that. > But... I remember discussing this on geom list and I think pjd said that > this should work and also it worked for me flawlessly except for that > one moment. > BTW, those filesystems are mounted like the following: > ufs, asynchronous, local, noatime, gjournal > This is to say that I do not mix gjournal and softupdates, which is also > possible (at least not prohibited). SU are irrelevant to the problem I am thinking of. vfs_write_suspend() returns 0 when the filesystem being suspended is already in suspend state. vfs_write_resume() clears the suspend state. vfs_write_suspend/vfs_write_resume are used both by snapshot code and the gjournal. If two users of these interfaces interleave, then you could get: thread1 thread2 vfs_write_suspend() <- fs is suspended there vfs_write_suspend() <- returns 0 vfs_write_resume() <- fs is no more suspended thread2 is burned in flame Snapshots are protected against this because they are created through the mount(2). The mount(2) locks the covered vnode and thus serializes snapshot creation (I think there are further serialization points that prevent simultaneous snapshotting of the same fs). There is nothing I can see that protects snapshots/gjournal interaction. --3ozdenm5Azl6mQ8k Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhGvlkACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4hZfgCghe9eqX5YceUj0yI8MJVQATJ6 8d8An3dpAThLkUWRFDilpI13vfye22hY =jkJq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3ozdenm5Azl6mQ8k-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 17:01:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9283C1065671 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:01:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175798FC1C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 5792 invoked by uid 399); 4 Jun 2008 17:15:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 4 Jun 2008 17:15:11 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4846CA7B.5070308@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:01:47 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Arends References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> <20080604122513.GA24093@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <200806040745.19637.josh@tcbug.org> <20080604132629.GI37038@shell.unixguru.nl> In-Reply-To: <20080604132629.GI37038@shell.unixguru.nl> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Josh Paetzel , Jeremy Chadwick , nlaroche@vt.edu, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:01:56 -0000 Richard Arends wrote: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 07:45:12AM -0500, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > Hi, > >> I'm interested in whatever cooling solutions people have... I didn't follow this thread earlier because I don't have this laptop, but I wonder if anyone has offered the suggestion to blow out all the vents and heatsinks with compressed air yet? Even in a fairly "healthy" environment at home my laptop gets a non-trivial amount of dust buildup. I blow it clean about once a month and get visible results each time. hth, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 17:45:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C926106566C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:45:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3EA8FC22 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:45:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m54HL27i049383 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.862 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.862 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.578] Message-Id: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:20:56 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Subject: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:45:52 -0000 Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from 6.2 to 6.3. But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and money for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old... -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 18:00:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D081065670 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:00:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CF68FC1B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:00:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 21001 invoked by uid 399); 4 Jun 2008 18:14:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 4 Jun 2008 18:14:01 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:00:41 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080525) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:00:47 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from 6.2 > to 6.3. It isn't that we want people to upgrade, it's that we are trying to be realistic regarding what we have the resources to support. > But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that > are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? > This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and money > for any business to handle this ugprade. Having an upgrade path is something every operation needs. "Set it and forget it" isn't a viable strategy in the current culture where 0-day vulnerabilities are becoming increasingly common. hth, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 18:12:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DE71065674; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:12:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECACE8FC12; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:12:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54ICTuK087314; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:12:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:30:37 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <484602C5.7000400@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <484602C5.7000400@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806041030.37413.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:12:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7363/Wed Jun 4 12:58:30 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=4.2 tests=BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: "Carlos A. M. dos Santos" , Jeremy Chadwick , Doug Barton Subject: Re: Why does sysinstall still limits cylinders to 65535? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:12:37 -0000 On Tuesday 03 June 2008 10:49:41 pm Doug Barton wrote: > Carlos A. M. dos Santos wrote: > > On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:24 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > >> On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 11:52:06PM -0300, Carlos A. M. dos Santos wrote: > >>> I have been struglling with sysinstall, attempting to make it handle > >>> the geometry of some large SATA drives. After a lot of effort I > >>> decided to stop suffering and modified the program in order to > >>> circumvent the outdated limit of 65535 cylinders (see attached patch). > >>> I'm thinking about submitting a PR with a change request but I'd like > >>> to get some additional opinions first. I did not test it in "batch" > >>> mode, so it would be great if any kind soul did this. > >> Carlos, bottom line is to simply ignore the geometry warning you see. > >> > >> For others... > >> > >> This is just added evidence that the humongous warning spit out during > >> sysinstall's fdisk is confusing users (many taking it very seriously > >> when there's really no problem at all). > >> > >> I think this is the third time someone's brought this up in the past > >> couple months... > > > > Sorry if I sound annoying but nobody else answered. I still believe > > that something must be done to fix sysinstall, so I'm asking you > > (where "you" means the "others" in Jeremy's message) to provide some > > additional feedback. Please fill-in the dots in one or more of the > > following options: > > > > 1. We can not make such change sysinstall because ... > > > > 2. Your patch is not correct/sufficient. I would be better if ... > > > > 3. Please submit a PR. It will momentarily be reviewed by ... > > > > 4. Give up. Nobody here cares about this issue. > > 5. -stable is not the right list to discuss sysinstall issues. > freebsd-hackers would be the first choice, if you don't get a response > there, -current would be the next. > > Send the PR first, and in your message give a brief background of your > issue and a URL for the PR. That way when it gets reviewed the feedback > will be consolidated into one convenient location. > > If you want "momentary" review for your work, open source is probably > not the arena you should be looking to contribute in. 6. The Real Fix(tm) would be to change sysinstall to allow use of GPT partitions (GPT doesn't use C/H/S at all, so the warning would only be present for the MBR/BSD label case) and then enable those by default. You would still need to allow for MBR/BSD layouts for some embedded devices that don't support the BIOS EDD packet mode (i.e. doing disk I/O using LBA's rather than C/H/S). -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 18:12:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088BD1065670 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:12:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3378FC0C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:12:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54ICTuL087314; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:12:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:44:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <200806031021.35416.jhb@freebsd.org> <20080603190418.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20080603190418.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806041044.01712.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:12:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7363/Wed Jun 4 12:58:30 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=4.2 tests=BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:12:44 -0000 On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:04:18 pm Peter Jeremy wrote: > BTW, your MUA's list-reply configuration don't recognize that > freebsd-stable@ and stable@ are aliases. Yes, kmail is broken and the authors refuse to fix it. It happens on reply to a foo@ e-mail (it changes the 'To' to 'freebsd-foo@' because of the List-Id header and leaves foo@ in the 'CC' field). Note that there isn't anything in the List headers that says that foo@ is an alias for freebsd-foo@. I just wish I could turn off the List-Id crap and use plain old reply-to-all, but that is where the kmail developers disagree. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 18:39:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F350F106566B; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9001F8FC1D; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:39:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:39:08 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:39:10 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > Jo Rhett wrote: >> Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from >> 6.2 to 6.3. > > It isn't that we want people to upgrade, it's that we are trying to be > realistic regarding what we have the resources to support. > >> But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that are >> working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. > > I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these > things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? > >> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and >> money for any business to handle this ugprade. > > Having an upgrade path is something every operation needs. "Set it and > forget it" isn't a viable strategy in the current culture where 0-day > vulnerabilities are becoming increasingly common. Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 release itself. Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 19:00:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03565106567F for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:00:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B008FC25 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.local ([192.168.254.200]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54J07q5087882; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:00:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:00:07 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080313 SeaMonkey/1.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:00:14 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from 6.2 > to 6.3. But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that > are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? > > This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and money > for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand > obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old... > The expectation is always that newer versions of a stable branch will have few regressions, and thus upgrading is a low risk. Scott From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 19:10:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589871065670 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:10:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gaijin.k@gmail.com) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.243]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027718FC15 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:10:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gaijin.k@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b33so61277ana.13 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:10:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc :in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version :x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wvir1/I5eIVRn9Scfm9r7M9mI86Zut42ZnCmobcaX0s=; b=WdUmkuS9ilmgJhoOYX39sNZqlIaz6sW/egmRVb1Jc990X0tBbMUigrpxNVp/fmz7FC DMsxeU4yyBPtclTATcCl0IOhTQnWjZiH/x265XUxv7ZF6ue0T520ZhTPTlq650/rOxla HbHh7mhjtd/Jyi3QbLkoNspeCbCzHlf+QPQG8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date :message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=MVwmySh35qUU5EhKdssN5WQtywBsbBDeLg0t9TlPBY6XapnhxF75Jf3I0Y1UzWOEgf 1SayDTDBPRQlK4QwT1B5k+WLh+/BzEVZB2RhNtgpno8r1CVvrVuLgrs3ZjP69ARj5b9p /XDd243HYTHleqwJl5dDJKCnRYzKcz7pZbsBQ= Received: by 10.100.33.13 with SMTP id g13mr467090ang.96.1212606632057; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.0.3.231? ( [71.250.42.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c9sm4082545ana.9.2008.06.04.12.10.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:10:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alexandre \"Sunny\" Kovalenko" To: Josh Paetzel In-Reply-To: <200806040745.19637.josh@tcbug.org> References: <18501.12329.638264.761303@cs.wpi.edu> <1212506007.48455f97a3788@webmail.vt.edu> <20080604122513.GA24093@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <200806040745.19637.josh@tcbug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:09:23 -0400 Message-Id: <1212606563.1226.11.camel@RabbitsDen> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Jeremy Chadwick , nlaroche@vt.edu, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lenovo Thinkpad t61p and FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:10:33 -0000 On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 07:45 -0500, Josh Paetzel wrote: > On Wednesday 04 June 2008 07:25:13 am Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 11:13:27AM -0400, nlaroche@vt.edu wrote: > > > Quoting nlaroche@vt.edu: > > > > Quoting Jeremy Chadwick : > > > > > Based on my experiences with my workplace-provided T60p, it's safe to > > > > > say I'll never recommend a Lenovo product. The temperatures of these > > > > > laptops are absolutely insane, supported by an incredibly loud fan. > > > > > I'm not interested in a product that can have a GPU reaching > > > > > temperatures of almost 70C **while idling**. > > > > > > > > I purchased a T60p about two months ago and I haven't had any of these > > > > happen (yet?) running Ubuntu 7.10. The machine only gets slightly warm > > > > to the touch after a few hours idling. > > > > > > > > Does your fan run all the time that loud? I'm wondering if there were > > > > changes made at the factory to fix this type of problem if it was wide > > > > spread. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nick LaRoche > > > > > > That was a T61p not a T60p > > > > It really doesn't matter in this case; T60p, T60p (widescreen), T61p, > > X60p, etc... They all behave the same way when it comes to > > temperatures: incredibly high, sometimes to the point of the system > > shutting off (for some). > > My T60p is really unusable for anything cpu intensive under FreeBSD. Even > with the ibm acpi addons loaded and the fan set to it's highest setting it > only turns at 3700rpm, which isn't enough to keep it from shutting down due > to heat. (eg over 100C) > > I'm interested in whatever cooling solutions people have... > You can read through this thread: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=141019+0 +/usr/local/www/db/text/2008/freebsd-acpi/20080217.freebsd-acpi which mentions at least two ways to approach it -- the right one from the referenced message forward. HTH, -- Alexandre "Sunny" Kovalenko (ОлекÑандр Коваленко) From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 20:07:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C355A1065674 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:07:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclark46@earthlink.net) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8391F8FC1E for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:07:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sclark46@earthlink.net) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=kO5FD4FJ5PzUM/2mc9yMsJllJ/g2jGATc+VOfaErswnw9908dudLMTP9D2lN4Rwr; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [24.144.77.185] (helo=joker.seclark.com) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1K3zFy-0007D5-PE; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:06:50 -0400 Message-ID: <4846F5D9.7000408@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:06:49 -0400 From: Stephen Clark User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Long References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: a437fbc6971e80f61aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7922fecf67be25bf780ff0836052b51eb3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 24.144.77.185 Cc: Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: sclark46@earthlink.net List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:07:00 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > Jo Rhett wrote: >> Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from >> 6.2 to 6.3. But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things >> that are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to >> make. > > Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? > >> >> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and >> money for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand >> obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old... >> > > The expectation is always that newer versions of a stable branch will > have few regressions, and thus upgrading is a low risk. > > Scott > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Can just the kernel be upgraded or does all of user space have to be upgrades to. How would someone recommend upgrading 500 hundred remote sites spread throughout the US? Thanks, Steve -- "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Ben Franklin) "The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." (Thomas Jefferson) From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 20:19:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5918106566B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:19:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFFD8FC24; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:19:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4846F8E5.8090309@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:19:49 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sclark46@earthlink.net References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <4846F5D9.7000408@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <4846F5D9.7000408@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:19:49 -0000 Stephen Clark wrote: > Scott Long wrote: >> Jo Rhett wrote: >>> Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from >>> 6.2 to 6.3. But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with >>> things that are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard >>> case to make. >> >> Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? >> >>> >>> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and >>> money for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand >>> obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old... >>> >> >> The expectation is always that newer versions of a stable branch will >> have few regressions, and thus upgrading is a low risk. >> >> Scott >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > Can just the kernel be upgraded or does all of user space have to be > upgrades to. Most things will work fine with slightly mismatched kernels, but it's not recommended to do this (some utilities may not work properly). > How would someone recommend upgrading 500 hundred remote sites spread > throughout Thoroughly test on identically configured machines, roll out incrementally and make sure you have a fallback (i.e. console access) in case something goes catastrophically wrong. Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 20:43:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8F01065671; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:43:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from outgoing01.lava.net (cake.lava.net [IPv6:2001:1888:0:1:230:48ff:fe5b:3b50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141BA8FC18; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:43:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing01.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EC3D03F3; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:43:27 -1000 (HST) Received: by malasada.lava.net (Postfix, from userid 102) id 4E660153882; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:43:27 -1000 (HST) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:43:27 -1000 From: Clifton Royston To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> Mail-Followup-To: Doug Barton , Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:43:29 -0000 On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 11:00:41AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > Jo Rhett wrote: ... > >But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that > >are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. > > I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these > things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as to this, either from posts on -hackers or -stable, and I believe I asked a couple times. I've seen comments that 6.3 should be considerably more stable than 6.2, but also complaints about bugs such as Jo is commenting on, and I have not seen much committed in the way of errata fixes for 6.3 since its release. I'd love to pick up some more stability, but I'm feeling a little burned by 6.2 relative to 4.10, and thus twice wary. > >This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and money > >for any business to handle this ugprade. > > Having an upgrade path is something every operation needs. "Set it and > forget it" isn't a viable strategy in the current culture where 0-day > vulnerabilities are becoming increasingly common. Fair enough. Now I must confess my ignorance; is there a simplest straightforward way to upgrade multiple servers between releases in the same branch, other than rebuilding each from source, or wiping and reinstalling? In the past I've always done one of those two. For example, if I take a 6.3R CD, or build one for 6-RELENG, is there a way to do an "upgrade in place" on each server? Or would it work better to do a build from recent source on the development server, then export /usr/src and /usr/obj via NFS to the production servers and do the usual "make installkernel; reboot;" etc. sequence on them? (In my case I do have all machines on one GigE switch.) -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- cliftonr@iandicomputing.com / cliftonr@lava.net President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 21:20:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD89106564A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: from mail.ispro.net (mail.ispro.net [87.251.0.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2DF8FC16 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:20:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: (qmail 96295 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 00:16:50 +0300 Received: from dsl-tkubrasgw1-fed0de00-174.dhcp.inet.fi (HELO ?80.222.208.174?) (yurtesen@ispro.net@80.222.208.174) by mail.ispro.net with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 00:16:50 +0300 X-Originating-IP: 80.222.208.174 Message-ID: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:20:46 +0300 From: Evren Yurtesen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: powerd is doing nothing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:20:11 -0000 Hi, I have boxes with 6.2-x86 to 7.0-amd64 with CPUs from AMD and Intel ranging between Athlon64, Pentium4, Xeon processors. OK I have setup powerd and when I run powerd I see (for example): idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 2978 MHz to 2605 MHz idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 2605 MHz to 2233 MHz idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 2233 MHz to 1861 MHz idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 1861 MHz to 1489 MHz idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 1489 MHz to 1116 MHz idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 1116 MHz to 744 MHz idle time > 90%, decreasing clock speed from 744 MHz to 372 MHz and sysctl's seem to be in order: dev.cpu.0.freq: 372 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 2978/-1 2605/-1 2233/-1 1861/-1 1489/-1 1116/-1 744/-1 372/-1 dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 However, I downloaded acpi_ppc from http://www.spa.is.uec.ac.jp/~nfukuda/software/ and there comes a program called chkfreq with it which measures the cpu time. It always shows the maximum speed. For example 2992751205 for 3ghz P4 (from the above examples) regardless of what freq is set. OK lets say the chkfreq is faulty, but I tested this on another machine with 6.2 box with: CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3500+ (2202.83-MHz 686-class CPU) and acpi_ppc says: cpu0: Px state: P0, 2200MHz, 89000mW, 100us, 7us cpu0: Px state: P1, 2000MHz, 69000mW, 100us, 7us cpu0: Px state: P2, 1800MHz, 50000mW, 100us, 7us cpu0: Px state: P3, 1000MHz, 22000mW, 100us, 7us cpu0: Px method: AMD K8 Cool'n'Quiet and when at 1000mhz chkfreq shows 1001297861 when I unload acpi_ppc it shows 2202845489. Then I load cpufreq and I see: powernow0: on cpu0 and run powerd dev.cpu.0.freq: 1000 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 2200/89000 2000/69000 1800/50000 1000/22000 dev.powernow.0.freq_settings: 2200/89000 2000/69000 1800/50000 1000/22000 dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 but when I run chkfreq I get 2202846202 (I checked with -v, powerd does not increase speed while testing) I tested powerd on several machines with p4, athlon64, xeon processors and it seems to work in none of the machines properly. Does anybody know how any way to check for sure if powerd is really working or not? Thanks, Evren From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 21:32:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B091065679 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:32:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D868FC1D for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:32:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from [128.205.32.76] (bauer.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m54L445G041570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:04:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu) From: Ken Smith To: freebsd-stable , freebsd-current Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-vQRAkJyRII7MSswVXZkZ" Organization: U. Buffalo CSE Department Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:04:04 -0400 Message-Id: <1212613444.13920.38.camel@bauer.cse.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 Cc: Subject: Upcoming release schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:32:49 -0000 --=-vQRAkJyRII7MSswVXZkZ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As some of you may know the FreeBSD Project has been attempting to shift over from "Feature based releases" to "Time based releases" as far as trying to schedule them goes. Lets just say that's still a work in progress (as in doing that with FreeBSD 7.0 didn't work out so well). This is the schedule we will be shooting for through the next several years/branches: 8/2008 7.1 and 6.4 2/2009 7.2 6/2009 8.0 8/2009 7.3 12/2009 8.1 and 7.4 3/2010 8.2 8/2010 8.3 12/2010 9.0 4/2011 9.1 and 8.4 10/2011 9.2 3/2012 9.3 6/2012 10.0 12/2012 10.1 and 9.4 No guarantees at this point, but those will be what we shoot for. I've updated the releng page on the Web site to include the first couple of those (commit was just done so it will take a little while to appear at http://www.freebsd.org/releng). --=20 Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | --=-vQRAkJyRII7MSswVXZkZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBIRwNE/G14VSmup/YRAsMeAJ9znwnuDR5tskIYyktHBncWE+DL2QCfeMOb uoQXfpqY9S4pNsUIfq1G7Po= =HERl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-vQRAkJyRII7MSswVXZkZ-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 21:53:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D27E106564A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:53:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@modulus.org) Received: from email.octopus.com.au (host-122-100-2-232.octopus.com.au [122.100.2.232]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D4C8FC15 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:53:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@modulus.org) Received: by email.octopus.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1002) id E864C1737E; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:53:40 +1000 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on email.octopus.com.au X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=10.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.2.3 Received: from [10.1.50.60] (142.19.96.58.exetel.com.au [58.96.19.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: admin@email.octopus.com.au) by email.octopus.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC7717262; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:53:36 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:53:20 +1000 From: Andrew Snow User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080523) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> In-Reply-To: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Evren Yurtesen Subject: Re: powerd is doing nothing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:53:43 -0000 The problem is not powerd but cpufreq. While cpufreq appears to work well on my Athlon X2, it has never worked on any of my Core2Duo or Core-based Xeon servers. This is a great shame as these newer Intel chips have the capability to clock up and down very quickly and seamlessly. Who can fix the cpufreq driver? I think it simply hasn't been updated with the latest data from Intel. - Andrew From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:05:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86671065671 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:05:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604148FC0C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:05:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54Lg0AI079843; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:42:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daleco.biz Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ezekiel.daleco.biz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xhlb3u7EOWly; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:41:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from archangel.daleco.biz (dsl.daleco.biz [209.125.108.70]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54LfoQJ079834; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:41:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <48470C19.90709@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:41:45 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20080213 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cliftonr@lava.net, FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> In-Reply-To: <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:05:09 -0000 Clifton Royston wrote: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 11:00:41AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: >> Jo Rhett wrote: > ... >>> But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that >>> are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. >> I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these >> things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? > > Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as > to this, either from posts on -hackers or -stable, and I believe I > asked a couple times. I've seen comments that 6.3 should be > considerably more stable than 6.2, but also complaints about bugs such > as Jo is commenting on, and I have not seen much committed in the way > of errata fixes for 6.3 since its release. > > I'd love to pick up some more stability, but I'm feeling a little > burned by 6.2 relative to 4.10, and thus twice wary. > > >>> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and money >>> for any business to handle this ugprade. >> Having an upgrade path is something every operation needs. "Set it and >> forget it" isn't a viable strategy in the current culture where 0-day >> vulnerabilities are becoming increasingly common. > > Fair enough. > > Now I must confess my ignorance; is there a simplest straightforward > way to upgrade multiple servers between releases in the same branch, > other than rebuilding each from source, or wiping and reinstalling? In > the past I've always done one of those two. Define "between releases"? If you have a machine running N.NR, then freebsd-update(8), maybe? Just a thought, and that not thought through, > For example, if I take a 6.3R CD, or build one for 6-RELENG, is there > a way to do an "upgrade in place" on each server? Or would it work > better to do a build from recent source on the development server, then > export /usr/src and /usr/obj via NFS to the production servers and do > the usual "make installkernel; reboot;" etc. sequence on them? (In my > case I do have all machines on one GigE switch.) > > -- Clifton I've heard of the latter being done with decent results. Kevin Kinsey -- No amount of careful planning will ever replace dumb luck. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:13:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E416C1065670 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:13:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: from mail.ispro.net (mail.ispro.net [87.251.0.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB95C8FC12 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:13:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: (qmail 12110 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 01:10:15 +0300 Received: from dsl-tkubrasgw1-fed0de00-174.dhcp.inet.fi (HELO ?80.222.208.174?) (yurtesen@ispro.net@80.222.208.174) by mail.ispro.net with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 01:10:15 +0300 X-Originating-IP: 80.222.208.174 Message-ID: <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:14:10 +0300 From: Evren Yurtesen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Snow References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> In-Reply-To: <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: powerd is doing nothing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:13:37 -0000 Andrew Snow wrote: > > The problem is not powerd but cpufreq. While cpufreq appears to work > well on my Athlon X2, it has never worked on any of my Core2Duo or > Core-based Xeon servers. > > This is a great shame as these newer Intel chips have the capability to > clock up and down very quickly and seamlessly. > > Who can fix the cpufreq driver? I think it simply hasn't been updated > with the latest data from Intel. Yes I can see that powerd is trying to change the frequency so agreed, cpufreq is broken. When you say that it doesnt work, does it give an error or? In my case it doesnt give any errors just says it set it but I see that nothing is set. Did you try acpi_ppc? http://www.spa.is.uec.ac.jp/~nfukuda/software/ Thanks, Evren From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:25:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942CA1065674 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:25:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mav@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cmail.optima.ua (cmail.optima.ua [195.248.191.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAF08FC1B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:25:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mav@FreeBSD.org) X-Spam-Flag: SKIP X-Spam-Yversion: Spamooborona-2.1.0 Received: from [212.86.226.226] (account mav@alkar.net HELO [192.168.3.2]) by cmail.optima.ua (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.14) with ESMTPA id 141037552 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:25:43 +0300 Message-ID: <48470853.6080807@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:25:39 +0300 From: Alexander Motin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Crashes in devfs. Possibly on interface creation/destruction. X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:25:46 -0000 Hi. After recent upgrading from 6.3-RC1/mpd-5.0rc1 to 6.3-STABLE/mpd-5.1 some of my PPPoE servers started to crash with about weekly period. Usually they just just hang without rebooting and core dumping. Consoles are inaccessible. All I have got from them was: kernel: Fatal trap 12: page fau kernel: lt while in k kernel: ernel kernel: mode kernel: kernel: cpuid = 1; apic id = 01 kernel: faut virtual address = 0x58 kernel: kernel: fault code = supervisor read, page not present kernel: kernel: instruction pointer = 0x20:0xc04800be kernel: kernel: stack pointer = 0x28:0xd690883c kernel: frame pointer = 0x28:0 kernel: xd6908854 kernel: code segment = kernel: base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b kernel: kernel: = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gra kernel: n 1 kernel: processor eflags = interrupt kernel: enab kernel: led, r kernel: esume kernel: , IOPL kernel: = 0 kernel: kernel: current process = 1835 (mpd5) kernel: kernel: trap number = 12 "fault virtual address" and "instruction pointer" are always the same. Address 0xc04800be looks like part of devfs code: > addr2line -f -e kernel.debug 0xc04800be devfs_populate_loop /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_devs.c:443 devfs_devs.c: de = devfs_newdirent(s, q - s); if (cdp->cdp_c.si_flags & SI_ALIAS) { de->de_uid = 0; de->de_gid = 0; de->de_mode = 0755; de->de_dirent->d_type = DT_LNK; pdev = cdp->cdp_c.si_parent; ->> line 443 ->> j = strlen(pdev->si_name) + 1; de->de_symlink = malloc(j, M_DEVFS, M_WAITOK); bcopy(pdev->si_name, de->de_symlink, j); 0x58 - is precisely the offset of si_name field inside of struct cdev. So looks like pdev = cdp->cdp_c.si_parent is NULL here for some reason. As soon as network interfaces have respective devfs entries and looking higher interface creation/destruction rate that newest mpd5.1 is able to reach due to optimizations, I think it may be some kind or race somewhere interface creation. Can somebody give me any hint where to look to? -- Alexander Motin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:28:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6571F1065671 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:28:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C918FC23 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:28:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: from slackbox.xs4all.nl (slackbox.xs4all.nl [213.84.242.160]) by smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54MSmrp003664 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:28:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: by slackbox.xs4all.nl (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DEC8DBAAB; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:28:47 +0200 From: Roland Smith To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080604222847.GA1179@slackbox.xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline X-GPG-Fingerprint: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 X-GPG-Key: http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/pubkey.txt X-GPG-Notice: If this message is not signed, don't assume I sent it! User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Subject: 7-STABLE and Intel G33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:28:50 -0000 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My PC has built-in intel G33 graphics, which I'm trying to get to work in something better then vesa. Following the instructions in http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2008-January/039638.html I have compiled and installed the driver and kernel modules from the git trees for drm and the xf86-video-intel driver from today. I also patched agp_i810.c to remove the comments from the chipset identifiers and rebuilt the kernel. After loading the i915.ko kernel module, and starting X with a config file using the intel driver, I still get; (II) intel(0): xf86BindGARTMemory: bind key 1 at 0x006ff000 (pgoffset 1791) (WW) intel(0): xf86BindGARTMemory: binding of gart memory with key 1 at offset 0x6ff000 failed (Invalid argument) Fatal server error: Couldn't bind memory for front buffer In dmesg output I see: agp0: trying to bind into stolen memory Looking at the Xorg.0.log, the xf86-video-intel driver and the drm and dri drivers seem to initialize OK. Grepping through the source, this error seems to originate in /usr/src/sys/pci/agp_i810.c;=20 if ( sc->chiptype !=3D CHIP_I810 ) { if ( (offset >> AGP_PAGE_SHIFT) < sc->stolen ) { device_printf(dev, "trying to bind into stolen memo= ry"); return EINVAL; } [disclaimer: I'm not a software engineer by education or trade, just a mechanical engineer who likes to tinker with computers and software] I've been reading the agp code, the intel driver code and I've skimmed the intel docs. I find the code quite hard to understand, and the intel docs nigh-on unreadable.=20 Would modifying the if-statement to not produce this error on the CHIP_G33 fix this problem? Or would it horribly blow up in my face? Any help to get this to work would be very much appreciated! Roland --=20 R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhHFx8ACgkQEnfvsMMhpyW/zgCfX7q3nxicEWK9uJW/L4HT/hJS 9+cAoKBGvJCWe4yBGBniH/4qZyrfLbCo =oLuk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:33:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADB0106564A for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:33:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@modulus.org) Received: from email.octopus.com.au (host-122-100-2-232.octopus.com.au [122.100.2.232]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67D18FC0C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:33:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@modulus.org) Received: by email.octopus.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 6ABA817D1C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:33:40 +1000 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on email.octopus.com.au X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=10.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.2.3 Received: from [10.1.50.60] (142.19.96.58.exetel.com.au [58.96.19.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: admin@email.octopus.com.au) by email.octopus.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253DC17262; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:33:36 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <48471834.30905@modulus.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:33:24 +1000 From: Andrew Snow User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080523) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> In-Reply-To: <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Evren Yurtesen Subject: cpufreq broken on core2duo (was: powerd is doing nothing?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:33:42 -0000 Evren Yurtesen wrote: > When you say that it doesnt work, does it give an error or? In my case > it doesnt give any errors just says it set it but I see that nothing is > set. Here's one box: CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8500 @ 3.16GHz cpu0: on acpi0 est0: on cpu0 est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 61a49200600091a device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 p4tcc0: on cpu0 Here's another one: CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz cpu0: on acpi0 est0: on cpu0 est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 p4tcc0: on cpu0 SYSCTLs On the first one: dev.cpu.0.freq: 2786 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 2786/-1 2437/-1 2089/-1 1741/-1 1393/-1 1044/-1 696/-1 348/-1 Attempting to change dev.cpu.0.freq has no effect and says: sysctl: dev.cpu.0.freq: Invalid argument From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:39:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650BC106566B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:39:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: from mail.ispro.net (mail.ispro.net [87.251.0.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C898FC12 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:39:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: (qmail 19484 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 01:35:51 +0300 Received: from dsl-tkubrasgw1-fed0de00-174.dhcp.inet.fi (HELO ?80.222.208.174?) (yurtesen@ispro.net@80.222.208.174) by mail.ispro.net with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 01:35:51 +0300 X-Originating-IP: 80.222.208.174 Message-ID: <484719B1.9030508@ispro.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:39:45 +0300 From: Evren Yurtesen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Snow References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> In-Reply-To: <48471834.30905@modulus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:39:15 -0000 Andrew Snow wrote: > Evren Yurtesen wrote: > >> When you say that it doesnt work, does it give an error or? In my case >> it doesnt give any errors just says it set it but I see that nothing >> is set. > > Here's one box: > > CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8500 @ 3.16GHz > cpu0: on acpi0 > est0: on cpu0 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 61a49200600091a > device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 > > > Here's another one: > CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz > cpu0: on acpi0 > est0: on cpu0 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 > device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 > > > > SYSCTLs On the first one: > dev.cpu.0.freq: 2786 > dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 2786/-1 2437/-1 2089/-1 1741/-1 1393/-1 1044/-1 > 696/-1 348/-1 > > Attempting to change dev.cpu.0.freq has no effect and says: > sysctl: dev.cpu.0.freq: Invalid argument > In one of the boxes I have there is an option in the bios where I can enable Intel Enhanced SpeedStep Technology. If I enable this to disabled in the bios then I get the same results as you are seeing. If I enable this in the bios then I get no errors but the processor speed doesnt change according to chkfreq from acpi_ppc http://www.spa.is.uec.ac.jp/~nfukuda/software/ Did you check the bios for this option? Another thing is that when I enable it from bios the cpufreq finds the processor to be 1500mhz (3000mhz in reality). You said you have an Athlon X2 box. Did you download http://www.spa.is.uec.ac.jp/~nfukuda/software/ and tried the chkfreq program which comes out with it to see if powerd is actually working? Because all I know is that you might be thinking that it is working but it might not be working at all. (I think acpi_ppc doesnt support dual core processors but chkfreq should give reliable results) Thanks, Evren From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 22:53:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F451065670 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:53:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.33]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9903A8FC1B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:53:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: from slackbox.xs4all.nl (slackbox.xs4all.nl [213.84.242.160]) by smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m54MrCc7065335; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:53:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: by slackbox.xs4all.nl (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9A0D3BAAB; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:53:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:53:12 +0200 From: Roland Smith To: Andrew Snow Message-ID: <20080604225312.GA2625@slackbox.xs4all.nl> References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AqsLC8rIMeq19msA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48471834.30905@modulus.org> X-GPG-Fingerprint: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 X-GPG-Key: http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/pubkey.txt X-GPG-Notice: If this message is not signed, don't assume I sent it! User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Cc: Evren Yurtesen , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo (was: powerd is doing nothing?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:53:21 -0000 --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 08:33:24AM +1000, Andrew Snow wrote: > Evren Yurtesen wrote: >=20 > > When you say that it doesnt work, does it give an error or? In my case= =20 > > it doesnt give any errors just says it set it but I see that nothing is= =20 > > set. >=20 > Here's one box: >=20 > CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8500 @ 3.16GHz > cpu0: on acpi0 > est0: on cpu0 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 61a49200600091a > device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 >=20 >=20 > Here's another one: > CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz > cpu0: on acpi0 > est0: on cpu0 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 > device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 =20 I had this on a new core2 quad. Updating to a recent 7-STABLE fixed the issue for me. Roland --=20 R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhHHNgACgkQEnfvsMMhpyV6DQCgljy55AjrCkOzcecj0unnvc6r b4YAn3JwiErXknRdGl8QKzA4lARwqc/+ =vp0z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:09:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476E61065672 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:09:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: from mail.ispro.net (mail.ispro.net [87.251.0.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206838FC18 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:09:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: (qmail 27697 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 02:05:42 +0300 Received: from dsl-tkubrasgw1-fed0de00-174.dhcp.inet.fi (HELO ?80.222.208.174?) (yurtesen@ispro.net@80.222.208.174) by mail.ispro.net with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 02:05:42 +0300 X-Originating-IP: 80.222.208.174 Message-ID: <484720AF.8000405@ispro.net> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:09:35 +0300 From: Evren Yurtesen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roland Smith References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <48470ED0.600@modulus.org> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> <20080604225312.GA2625@slackbox.xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <20080604225312.GA2625@slackbox.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Andrew Snow Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:09:06 -0000 Roland Smith wrote: > On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 08:33:24AM +1000, Andrew Snow wrote: >> Here's another one: >> CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz >> cpu0: on acpi0 >> est0: on cpu0 >> est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. >> est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 >> device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 >> p4tcc0: on cpu0 > > I had this on a new core2 quad. Updating to a recent 7-STABLE fixed the > issue for me. Did any of you tried chkfreq which comes with acpi_ppc http://www.spa.is.uec.ac.jp/~nfukuda/software/ to check if the cpu frequency is actually changing? Thanks, Evren From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:22:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F265E106566B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:22:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byshenknet@byshenk.net) Received: from core.byshenk.net (core.byshenk.net [62.58.73.230]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82ECE8FC15 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:22:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byshenknet@byshenk.net) Received: from core.byshenk.net (localhost.aoes.com [127.0.0.1]) by core.byshenk.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m54NLZbF019541; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:21:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from byshenknet@core.byshenk.net) Received: (from byshenknet@localhost) by core.byshenk.net (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m54NLZhU019540; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:21:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from byshenknet) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:21:35 +0200 From: Greg Byshenk To: FreeBSD Stable Message-ID: <20080604232135.GD1381@core.byshenk.net> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <48470C19.90709@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48470C19.90709@daleco.biz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on core.byshenk.net Cc: cliftonr@lava.net Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:22:12 -0000 On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 04:41:45PM -0500, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Clifton Royston wrote: > > For example, if I take a 6.3R CD, or build one for 6-RELENG, is there > >a way to do an "upgrade in place" on each server? Or would it work > >better to do a build from recent source on the development server, then > >export /usr/src and /usr/obj via NFS to the production servers and do > >the usual "make installkernel; reboot;" etc. sequence on them? (In my > >case I do have all machines on one GigE switch.) > I've heard of the latter being done with decent results. I can't say that it is "better", but I do the latter (well, actually I build on a test machine to make sure there are no problems, then sync to an NFS server and mount src and object from there, followed by installkernel-reboot-installworld-merge-reboot) on a number of different machines (currently runnign 6.3-STABLE of 2008-05-22 and 7.0-STABLE of 2008-05-27), and it is certainly faster and easier than doing a build on each individual machine. I do the same thing with ports, doing a 'portupgrade -p' on the build machine followed by a 'portupgrade -P' on the "clients" (building packages on the build machine, and then installing via my own packages on the others). Again, I can't say that it is "better", but it is certainly faster and easier. -- greg byshenk - gbyshenk@byshenk.net - Leiden, NL From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:34:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18569106566C for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECAE8FC22 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:34:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m54NY9Nd073003; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.865 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.575] Message-Id: <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:34:04 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:34:12 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Doug Barton wrote: >> But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that are >> working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. > > I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these > things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? I go into the hardware and questions list and search for the hardware devices we use, and see problem reports. I see associated bugs, unclosed. I set aside upgrade for later ;-) >> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and >> money for any business to handle this ugprade. > > Having an upgrade path is something every operation needs. "Set it > and forget it" isn't a viable strategy in the current culture where > 0-day vulnerabilities are becoming increasingly common. Absolutely not saying that. In fact, we had 6.3 upgrade on the books for April but when I looked in April there were still open bugs. I looked in late May and saw the same. So we punted to late June (because the original end of life was June 30th) and then suddenly we're getting messages every night saying that we're unsupported. So we're staying unsupported until 6.3 stabilizes obviously. That sucks. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:39:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480231065677 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:39:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from outgoing01.lava.net (cake.lava.net [IPv6:2001:1888:0:1:230:48ff:fe5b:3b50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D1A8FC21 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:39:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing01.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90142D0408; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:05 -1000 (HST) Received: by malasada.lava.net (Postfix, from userid 102) id 08B96153882; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:04 -1000 (HST) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:04 -1000 From: Clifton Royston To: Greg Byshenk Message-ID: <20080604233903.GA1146@lava.net> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Byshenk , FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <48470C19.90709@daleco.biz> <20080604232135.GD1381@core.byshenk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080604232135.GD1381@core.byshenk.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:39:06 -0000 On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 01:21:35AM +0200, Greg Byshenk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 04:41:45PM -0500, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > > Clifton Royston wrote: > > > > For example, if I take a 6.3R CD, or build one for 6-RELENG, is there > > >a way to do an "upgrade in place" on each server? Or would it work > > >better to do a build from recent source on the development server, then > > >export /usr/src and /usr/obj via NFS to the production servers and do > > >the usual "make installkernel; reboot;" etc. sequence on them? (In my > > >case I do have all machines on one GigE switch.) > > > I've heard of the latter being done with decent results. > > I can't say that it is "better", but I do the latter (well, actually I > build on a test machine to make sure there are no problems, then sync > to an NFS server and mount src and object from there, followed by > installkernel-reboot-installworld-merge-reboot) Actually, yes, that's precisely what I was planning. I *do* at least have a separate development and test machine, apart from the main server cluster. > on a number of different > machines (currently runnign 6.3-STABLE of 2008-05-22 and 7.0-STABLE of > 2008-05-27), and it is certainly faster and easier than doing a build > on each individual machine. > > I do the same thing with ports, doing a 'portupgrade -p' on the build > machine followed by a 'portupgrade -P' on the "clients" (building > packages on the build machine, and then installing via my own packages > on the others). Again, I can't say that it is "better", but it is > certainly faster and easier. Thanks a lot for the feedback! I'll have to consider freebsd-update too; I simply haven't got used to its being available as an option. -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- cliftonr@iandicomputing.com / cliftonr@lava.net President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:46:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3BD1065671; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:46:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D348FC1E; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:46:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m54Nk6Ej073180; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.868 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.572] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:46:01 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:46:09 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by > the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 > release itself. It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:48:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B01C1065675 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E04A8FC1B for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m54NmKNr073208; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.570] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:48:14 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:48:22 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Scott Long wrote: > Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All three in production use on dozens of systems. >> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and >> money for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally >> understand obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a >> year old... > > The expectation is always that newer versions of a stable branch > will have few regressions, and thus upgrading is a low risk. That's my expectation as well. The 6.3 degression has been somewhat surprising. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 23:57:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26F9106564A; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:57:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41E68FC24; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:57:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m54Nveph073329; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.873 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.567] Message-Id: <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Edwin Groothuis In-Reply-To: <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:57:35 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:57:42 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Edwin Groothuis wrote: > We have about 40 servers which were running 6.1 and 6.2 and the > seven busy ones (application servers which do mail and proxying, > and the database servers) hung *dead* every week. One per day. I'm sorry to hear that. Our servers have never hung with 6.2. Reboots only occurred to satisfy kernel security patches. But with 6.3 there are many open bug reports about our exact hardware, and I'd prefer to avoid swapping positions with you ;-0 -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:01:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFC91065674; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:01:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9BB8FC0C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:01:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:01:19 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:01:19 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by the >> 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 release >> itself. > > > It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 bugs > outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. > > I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. > I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself instead of assuming that it will fail. Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:01:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE2B10656ED for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:01:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from edwin@mavetju.org) Received: from mail5out.barnet.com.au (mail5.barnet.com.au [202.83.178.78]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E338FC24 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:01:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from edwin@mavetju.org) Received: by mail5out.barnet.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E61982218BE7; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:45:33 +1000 (EST) X-Viruscan-Id: <4847291D000062AA48B6FA@BarNet> Received: from mail5auth.barnet.com.au (mail5.barnet.com.au [202.83.178.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail5auth.barnet.com.au", Issuer "*.barnet.com.au" (verified OK)) by mail5.barnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6689021B35DE; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:45:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from k7.mavetju (k7.mavetju.org [10.251.1.18]) by mail5auth.barnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA49A2218BB9; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:45:32 +1000 (EST) Received: by k7.mavetju (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 69DEA15C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:45:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:45:32 +1000 From: Edwin Groothuis To: Doug Barton , Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable Message-ID: <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> Mail-Followup-To: Edwin Groothuis , Doug Barton , Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:01:37 -0000 On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 10:43:27AM -1000, Clifton Royston wrote: > On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 11:00:41AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > > Jo Rhett wrote: > ... > > >But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things that > > >are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to make. > > > > I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these > > things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? > > Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as > to this, either from posts on -hackers or -stable, and I believe I > asked a couple times. I've seen comments that 6.3 should be > considerably more stable than 6.2, but also complaints about bugs such > as Jo is commenting on, and I have not seen much committed in the way > of errata fixes for 6.3 since its release. We have about 40 servers which were running 6.1 and 6.2 and the seven busy ones (application servers which do mail and proxying, and the database servers) hung *dead* every week. One per day. Luckely they were all redundant etc and remotely rebootable, but it was a nightmare for half a year. A handfull of patches (mutex-based) helped a lot, but still it was too much for my liking. The upgrade to 6.3 fixed *everything*, these seven servers now have uptimes of (since february) again. (The updates were scheduled in November as xmas-break updates, so imagine me getting more and more nervous when things got dragged out). So 6.3 saved my sanity :-) Edwin -- Edwin Groothuis | Personal website: http://www.mavetju.org edwin@mavetju.org | Weblog: http://www.mavetju.org/weblog/ From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:05:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8241065673 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:05:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F8F8FC18 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:05:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.local ([192.168.254.200]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5505Atd090059; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:05:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:05:10 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080313 SeaMonkey/1.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:05:13 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Scott Long wrote: >> Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? > > gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All three > in production use on dozens of systems. > Give me specific details on the 3ware and bge problems. Scott From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:22:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4E1106564A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:22:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFEC8FC15; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:22:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m550MHYV073891; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.565] Message-Id: <7B3DA577-61F6-41D2-90B1-954E3A5A5C80@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:22:11 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:22:19 -0000 > Jo Rhett wrote: >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>> release itself. >> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 >> bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. > > I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your > expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for > yourself instead of assuming that it will fail. Several of the bug reports have the *exact* same hardware we are using. Rackable systems with 3ware controllers. If you're asking why I don't turn a production environment over to being a freebsd-unstable-testbed, I can't really answer that question in a way you'd understand (if you were asking that question) -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:24:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B2A106566B; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536108FC0A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m550OmJr073996; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:24:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.878 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.878 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.562] From: Jo Rhett To: Steven Hartland In-Reply-To: <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net><20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:24:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Edwin Groothuis , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:24:50 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: > I wouldn't be surprised if these are not new bugs, just something > that others have noticed later than 6.2 and I'd suggest you actually > try 6.3 to see if they are in fact an issue for you. I don't have the resources to load up the systems enough to find these problems sitting on my desk. And I can't risk production resources for problems known and reported on the *EXACT* same hardware. "oh but it won't happen to me" isn't a useful methodology in a production environment. I mean, seriously, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting your systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home system, no problem. But I can't do this in a production environment. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:26:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA091065674 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:26:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A358FC1A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:26:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [10.66.240.106] (public-wireless.sv.svcolo.com [64.13.135.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m550QYjX074020; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.88 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=0.560] Message-Id: <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:26:29 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:26:37 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Scott Long wrote: > Jo Rhett wrote: >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Scott Long wrote: >>> Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? >> gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All >> three in production use on dozens of systems. > > Give me specific details on the 3ware and bge problems. Familiar with searching the open bug reports? That's where I found them. Sorry, I'm knee-deep in a major project that I've been working 16+ hours a day on right now, and I just don't have the time for spurious queries. Query the open bug reports for 6.3 and then explain to me again why 6.2 is no longer supported. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:32:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9C01065677; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:32:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (core6.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008878FC1C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:32:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=multiplay.co.uk; s=Multiplay; t=1212625046; x=1213229846; q=dns/txt; h=Received: Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=2wWvthQYnfeuv/4xa7pdW ETOv+ulYDv0ygkX5h7yxN4=; b=B2q7wNqYJo/aHiwhoGcLUPTBhEgnAGyckjZkx QHIbu9GZfoa44mixTLh/b4jRk++p58GnqWUwdqmh/7gt9XmLAA5qaUEHS0cF6FAe ScpKDEll7s9KmXYw/h6jltFYwBzHpiOCBwTys339iZmW/1YlYBVZRXz9MtJKXKPG X4sB+s= X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.7 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from r2d2 by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50005712156.msg; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:17:24 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: Killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDRemoteIP: 212.135.219.182 X-Return-Path: prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk Message-ID: <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Jo Rhett" , "Edwin Groothuis" References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net><20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:17:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:17:25 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:17:26 +0100 Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:32:46 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Rhett" > I'm sorry to hear that. Our servers have never hung with 6.2. > Reboots only occurred to satisfy kernel security patches. > > But with 6.3 there are many open bug reports about our exact hardware, > and I'd prefer to avoid swapping positions with you ;-0 I wouldn't be surprised if these are not new bugs, just something that others have noticed later than 6.2 and I'd suggest you actually try 6.3 to see if they are in fact an issue for you. We have been very happy with 6.2 here and we have quite a few machines using it. Apart from the very occasional crash when odd things like multi disk failures, they have all be solid. We won't however be upgrading to 6.3, instead we are moving to 7.0 which has again has been proved very stable here, but has the add benefit of a large amount of improvements especially in SMP performance. You may wish to consider this as an alternative after validation with your hardware / software of course :) Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:32:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1EB41065678; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:32:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (core6.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046A18FC1D; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:32:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=multiplay.co.uk; s=Multiplay; t=1212625838; x=1213230638; q=dns/txt; h=Received: Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=m6xx8rnTtgBjxwuXKFl6y ko9/4M+nBL42h1YyRRYEoI=; b=KwJjm+vrCWh3zPj5FiGNkSjll+7Arl+5Qxj7K ud4k9zfEfcLXaSrH849mRHPN9h/XEyULu5WHxoH5DNOZlMmSISP0LSLjY8Em3xHs Wr6mFNTT9DxlKevXxrXY4xxQ2wI8keo9m4UX46BntLGt6+S9w+pXp4g91YVHmGUx D3QEB4= X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.7 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from r2d2 by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50005712173.msg; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:30:36 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: Killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDRemoteIP: 212.135.219.182 X-Return-Path: prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk Message-ID: <7B8FD1A1E7DA49DFA68252BF9C74AE6F@multiplay.co.uk> From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Jo Rhett" References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net><20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:30:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:30:37 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:30:38 +0100 Cc: Edwin Groothuis , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:32:46 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Rhett" > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: >> I wouldn't be surprised if these are not new bugs, just something >> that others have noticed later than 6.2 and I'd suggest you actually >> try 6.3 to see if they are in fact an issue for you. > > I don't have the resources to load up the systems enough to find these > problems sitting on my desk. And I can't risk production resources > for problems known and reported on the *EXACT* same hardware. > > "oh but it won't happen to me" isn't a useful methodology in a > production environment. > > I mean, seriously, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting your > systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home system, > no problem. But I can't do this in a production environment. That's unfortunate. One thing you might want to check is are there any changes in those areas between 6.2 and 6.3 e.g. if its a bug with a specific driver but said driver has had no commits or not commits in the specific area then it may be fairly safe to conclude said bug also exists in 6.2 and if you haven't seen it there your unlikely to experience it in 6.3. Without any specifics people will be unable to comment. Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:35:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6698A106567F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:35:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from edwin@mavetju.org) Received: from mail5out.barnet.com.au (mail5.barnet.com.au [202.83.178.78]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1500D8FC1F; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:35:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from edwin@mavetju.org) Received: by mail5out.barnet.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5E6492218C0E; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:35:50 +1000 (EST) X-Viruscan-Id: <484734E40000F821EDA702@BarNet> Received: from mail5auth.barnet.com.au (mail5.barnet.com.au [202.83.178.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail5auth.barnet.com.au", Issuer "*.barnet.com.au" (verified OK)) by mail5.barnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A5D21B3618; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:35:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from k7.mavetju (k7.mavetju.org [10.251.1.18]) by mail5auth.barnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4852218BEB; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:35:46 +1000 (EST) Received: by k7.mavetju (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EA38915C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:35:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:35:45 +1000 From: Edwin Groothuis To: Jo Rhett Message-ID: <20080605003545.GP89632@k7.mavetju> Mail-Followup-To: Edwin Groothuis , Jo Rhett , Steven Hartland , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable References: <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: FreeBSD Stable , Doug Barton , Steven Hartland Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:35:51 -0000 On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 05:24:42PM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: > >I wouldn't be surprised if these are not new bugs, just something > >that others have noticed later than 6.2 and I'd suggest you actually > >try 6.3 to see if they are in fact an issue for you. > > I don't have the resources to load up the systems enough to find these > problems sitting on my desk. And I can't risk production resources > for problems known and reported on the *EXACT* same hardware. > > "oh but it won't happen to me" isn't a useful methodology in a > production environment. > > I mean, seriously, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting your > systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home system, > no problem. But I can't do this in a production environment. Use the eat-your-own-food approach (while not knowing what the 500 systems do): Make sure you use the same hardware and software as what is in production. Upgrade it first, run it for two weeks. If it doesn't, fallback and see where it went wrong. If it all works fine after two weeks, roll it out. Edwin -- Edwin Groothuis | Personal website: http://www.mavetju.org edwin@mavetju.org | Weblog: http://www.mavetju.org/weblog/ From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:44:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794F01065676 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:44:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299728FC15 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:44:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.local ([192.168.254.200]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m550iGjE090254; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:44:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:44:16 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080313 SeaMonkey/1.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:44:20 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Scott Long wrote: >> Jo Rhett wrote: >>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Scott Long wrote: >>>> Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? >>> gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All >>> three in production use on dozens of systems. >> >> Give me specific details on the 3ware and bge problems. > > > Familiar with searching the open bug reports? That's where I found them. > > Sorry, I'm knee-deep in a major project that I've been working 16+ hours > a day on right now, and I just don't have the time for spurious > queries. Query the open bug reports for 6.3 and then explain to me > again why 6.2 is no longer supported. > Really, if it's such a big issue that you have time to bitch an moan on the mailing lists, I don't understand why you don't have time to also help a goddamned developer identify the problem. Are you actually experiencing problems with 6.3, or not? Scott From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 00:49:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4C51065676 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:49:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6C38FC1C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:49:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from vampire.homelinux.org (dslb-088-066-062-212.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.66.62.212]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu4) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML21M-1K43fT2zsH-0000Zi; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:49:27 +0200 Received: (qmail 68549 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2008 00:47:29 -0000 Received: from myhost.laiers.local (192.168.4.151) by router.laiers.local with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 00:47:29 -0000 From: Max Laier Organization: FreeBSD To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 02:48:59 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.9 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/EdMGnmFE6LVs0QpB/QTJghi+uSQRbcdu86et KGZPvnJwX04n9XsBgSC31G5ut7NgPW8UQw/D5twkqhE2ysEwj7 wvyD4lHxQ80JzGZSudyZg== Cc: Jo Rhett Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 00:49:29 -0000 On Thursday 05 June 2008 02:26:29 Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Scott Long wrote: > > Jo Rhett wrote: > >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Scott Long wrote: > >>> Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? > >> > >> gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All > >> three in production use on dozens of systems. > > > > Give me specific details on the 3ware and bge problems. > > Familiar with searching the open bug reports? That's where I found > them. > > Sorry, I'm knee-deep in a major project that I've been working 16+ > hours a day on right now, and I just don't have the time for spurious > queries. Query the open bug reports for 6.3 and then explain to me > again why 6.2 is no longer supported. Because the people who support FreeBSD 6.2 are also knee-deep in major projects of their own!? We try try to not introduce regressions as we move forward supporting new features and hardware, but unless people put in some effort of their own helping us to test ... You obviously did not put in any effort of your own so why would you expect us to do the work for you? Unless you can provide "*EXACT*" bug reports and show willingness to help debugging them, there really is not much point in this thread. -- /"\ Best regards, | mlaier@freebsd.org \ / Max Laier | ICQ #67774661 X http://pf4freebsd.love2party.net/ | mlaier@EFnet / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 01:27:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D55106566B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:27:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.236]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFECE8FC18 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:27:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so446980rvf.43 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:27:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=VHaYxbMvFv5fMxmuq3TXcAzQPciKZfZE6T+y9uLPVRo=; b=owvzywltR7k39t/AbRkTvTUpDBFzIlxmWBI2dii0oLzrRFbMi1sENof967HSaiCU1H 3OZVO+Nb1nZ8ycCK7tBwtM1zL5sWh38wkzURUeCdjIykHjZZhW6KC6ZUiTgMgzNpgv4q an/lx0/9XMQ/UNOODqulwFyQI5gyubtQMK6YI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=b6L4lFOuW0d613oLk2fDAe5W+VsZEEGXb7z8FNajoKIxkW1Ft6MppT1uKqUW3WxyWu f21j1XkwOM2E38qfWJ4nfrCtIiN7mFHophYXZfBIEcJ5od0o7IIbAa+1/5nVsaB30fGu 215jszsAWQrUYlhw/Sxq6/Ty7TmvvaWx2LLl4= Received: by 10.141.123.4 with SMTP id a4mr449376rvn.172.1212627790203; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.70.11 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:03:09 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Jo Rhett" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 86afa06831cb4f1b Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:27:38 -0000 If this is so important to you - contribute to the project and/or hire a FreeBSD developer. (Ah, the Curse of Open Source Projects..) Adrian 2008/6/5 Jo Rhett : > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: >> >> I wouldn't be surprised if these are not new bugs, just something >> that others have noticed later than 6.2 and I'd suggest you actually >> try 6.3 to see if they are in fact an issue for you. > > I don't have the resources to load up the systems enough to find these > problems sitting on my desk. And I can't risk production resources for > problems known and reported on the *EXACT* same hardware. > > "oh but it won't happen to me" isn't a useful methodology in a production > environment. > > I mean, seriously, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting your > systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home system, no > problem. But I can't do this in a production environment. > > -- > Jo Rhett > Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and > other randomness > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 05:15:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6001065677; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:15:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7F98FC17; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:15:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [172.16.12.8] (covad-jrhett.meer.net [209.157.140.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m555Fa26079340; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.705 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.705 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-2.265] From: Jo Rhett To: Steven Hartland In-Reply-To: <7B8FD1A1E7DA49DFA68252BF9C74AE6F@multiplay.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net><20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <7B8FD1A1E7DA49DFA68252BF9C74AE6F@multiplay.co.uk> Message-Id: <1A050712-3D0F-4263-A9F8-EE4AD042486E@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: Edwin Groothuis , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:15:41 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: > That's unfortunate. One thing you might want to check is are there > any changes in those areas between 6.2 and 6.3 e.g. if its a bug > with a specific driver but said driver has had no commits or > not commits in the specific area then it may be fairly safe to > conclude said bug also exists in 6.2 and if you haven't seen it > there your unlikely to experience it in 6.3. The bugs in question are *not* replicable in 6.2, and each of the bug reports has said so. This is the major point of concern for us. What happened between 6.2 and 6.3 to break so many drivers? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 05:19:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA41106566C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:19:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 845158FC18; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:19:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [172.16.12.8] (covad-jrhett.meer.net [209.157.140.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m555J34e079385; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.691 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.691 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-2.251] Message-Id: <13A3FC54-B459-48C5-85CD-14CC38913838@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Edwin Groothuis In-Reply-To: <20080605003545.GP89632@k7.mavetju> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:19:03 -0700 References: <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <20080605003545.GP89632@k7.mavetju> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: FreeBSD Stable , Doug Barton , Steven Hartland Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:19:06 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Edwin Groothuis wrote: > Use the eat-your-own-food approach (while not knowing what the 500 > systems do): Make sure you use the same hardware and software as > what is in production. Upgrade it first, run it for two weeks. If > it doesn't, fallback and see where it went wrong. If it all works > fine after two weeks, roll it out. Edwin, I've been building testbed environments for over 20 years in my professional career. I know a lot more than this basic concept. The costs in our environment for a proper testbed is $20k in hardware and 3000 man hours. That's for a small test of comparable small changes to the existing environment. Why would we take on this cost only to re-document well known and already acknowledged bugs? I mean, really? Not trying to be sarcastic, but do you purchase cars to test them out and see if you can get better gas mileage than the EPA observes? Neither do I ;-) (yes, their testing methodology is flawed but it's a decent enough benchmark to know if you want the vehicle or not) -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 05:22:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400A9106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:22:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262BA8FC1D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:22:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [172.16.12.8] (covad-jrhett.meer.net [209.157.140.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m555MXPl079447; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.677 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-2.237] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Max Laier In-Reply-To: <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:22:33 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:22:36 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Max Laier wrote: > Because the people who support FreeBSD 6.2 are also knee-deep in major > projects of their own!? We try try to not introduce regressions as we > move forward supporting new features and hardware, but unless people > put > in some effort of their own helping us to test ... > > You obviously did not put in any effort of your own so why would you > expect us to do the work for you? Unless you can provide "*EXACT*" > bug > reports and show willingness to help debugging them, there really is > not > much point in this thread. The bugs in question were very well documented. None of them were in a state indicating that the developer could not reproduce nor were they waiting for more info. Given that situation, I didn't see a need to add more to a known problem. *IF* any of them had been looking for test cases, I would have been happy to build a test system and turn it over to the developer in question. We do that fairly routinely. And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to work for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 because 6.3 isn't ready yet. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 05:24:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2071A106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:24:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060188FC2B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:24:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [172.16.12.8] (covad-jrhett.meer.net [209.157.140.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m555ORpq079484; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.663 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-2.223] Message-Id: <74EB4162-74CB-4591-B7E5-8156BB56C29E@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:24:27 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:24:30 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Scott Long wrote: > Really, if it's such a big issue that you have time to bitch an moan > on the mailing lists, I don't understand why you don't have time to > also > help a goddamned developer identify the problem. Are you actually > experiencing problems with 6.3, or not? None of the bugs were in a state with the developer trying to identify the system. We have several systems dedicated for FreeBSD developers to use for test cases already, and we'd be happy to provide another if one was necessary. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 05:33:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52A9106566B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:33:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3BF8FC1E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:33:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from [172.16.12.8] (covad-jrhett.meer.net [209.157.140.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m555XUwW079624 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.649 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-2.209] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: FreeBSD Stable In-Reply-To: <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:33:30 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Subject: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:33:32 -0000 I'm going to be offline for a week starting now, so please don't read my lack of answers as anything other than "out of town". Sorry. For clarity: I'm not asking for anyone to fix anything. I honestly believe most developers are addressing problems as fast as they can. I'd help them in any way I could. I am suggesting that given that the current bug list for 6.3-RELEASE is both (a) too large and (b) breaks things that work fine in 6.2 ... that I think pushing 6.2 (the real stable release) into EoL is a bit rushed. I sympathize with the development costs of maintaining old versions. Again, I will help in any way I can. On my return next week I would happily build and provide 6.3-RELEASE systems for any developer who needs a test environment for reported bugs that affect hardware I have in my possession. Free boxes, free bandwidth, power, etc. No problem. Free my time in whatever way I can help. But until such time as the current bug list for 6.3 hardware reduces to somewhere less than 100% likelyhood of experiencing failures after an upgrade, there's just no way I can take our production environment forward. Going "bravely forward" to guaranteed failure isn't a great way to enjoy your job :-( Which means I'll be doing our security patches by hand. Because it may be time intensive, but it's less likely to cause a production failure. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 06:03:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE542106566C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 06:03:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no) Received: from osl1smout1.broadpark.no (osl1smout1.broadpark.no [80.202.4.58]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DC28FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 06:03:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Received: from osl1sminn1.broadpark.no ([80.202.4.59]) by osl1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0K1Z00ALS7I9AKE0@osl1smout1.broadpark.no> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:03:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kg-work.kg4.no ([80.202.72.251]) by osl1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with SMTP id <0K1Z001ZS7I83D32@osl1sminn1.broadpark.no> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:03:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:03:44 +0200 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-id: <20080605080344.f99347ec.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> In-reply-to: <13A3FC54-B459-48C5-85CD-14CC38913838@netconsonance.com> References: <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <20080605003545.GP89632@k7.mavetju> <13A3FC54-B459-48C5-85CD-14CC38913838@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.3) X-Face: "t9w2,-X@O^I`jVW\sonI3.,36KBLZE*AL[y9lL[PyFD*r_S:dIL9c[8Y>V42R0"!"yb_zN,f#%.[PYYNq; m"_0v; ~rUM2Yy!zmkh)3&U|u!=T(zyv,MHJv"nDH>OJ`t(@mil461d_B'Uo|'nMwlKe0Mv=kvV?Nh@>Hb<3s_z2jYgZhPb@?Wi^x1a~Hplz1.zH Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 06:03:49 -0000 On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:19:03 -0700 Jo Rhett wrote: > Edwin, I've been building testbed environments for over 20 years in > my professional career. I know a lot more than this basic concept. > > The costs in our environment for a proper testbed is $20k in > hardware and 3000 man hours. That's for a small test of comparable > small changes to the existing environment. > > Why would we take on this cost only to re-document well known and > already acknowledged bugs? I mean, really? I'm surprised that a test environment (for upgrade testing, load testing, release testing) isn't already in place. Some people (customers and operators alike) might think it is unprofessional and unsafe to run a production system without a test system available. If you have a test system available, why don't you use it? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 06:35:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F021065677 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 06:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A5C8FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 06:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 374DE1A4D83; Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:19:31 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20080605061931.GF48790@elvis.mu.org> References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <200806031021.35416.jhb@freebsd.org> <20080603190418.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <200806041044.01712.jhb@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200806041044.01712.jhb@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 06:35:39 -0000 * John Baldwin [080604 11:12] wrote: > On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:04:18 pm Peter Jeremy wrote: > > BTW, your MUA's list-reply configuration don't recognize that > > freebsd-stable@ and stable@ are aliases. > > Yes, kmail is broken and the authors refuse to fix it. It happens on reply to > a foo@ e-mail (it changes the 'To' to 'freebsd-foo@' because of the List-Id > header and leaves foo@ in the 'CC' field). Note that there isn't anything in > the List headers that says that foo@ is an alias for freebsd-foo@. I just > wish I could turn off the List-Id crap and use plain old reply-to-all, but > that is where the kmail developers disagree. wtf.....why not just have a checkbox to toggle the behavior? -- - Alfred Perlstein From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 07:45:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ABA1065674; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:45:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from hosted.kievnet.com (hosted.kievnet.com [193.138.144.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF618FC14; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:45:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=edge.pp.kiev.ua) by hosted.kievnet.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1K4A9j-00099Z-Fx; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:45:07 +0300 Message-ID: <4847997D.4060404@icyb.net.ua> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:45:01 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080320) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kostik Belousov References: <4846AFC3.3050101@icyb.net.ua> <20080604152332.GE63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <4846B5D9.1050903@icyb.net.ua> <20080604161001.GF63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> In-Reply-To: <20080604161001.GF63348@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-U; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mystery: lock up after fs dump X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:45:10 -0000 on 04/06/2008 19:10 Kostik Belousov said the following: > SU are irrelevant to the problem I am thinking of. > > vfs_write_suspend() returns 0 when the filesystem being suspended is already > in suspend state. vfs_write_resume() clears the suspend state. > > vfs_write_suspend/vfs_write_resume are used both by snapshot code and > the gjournal. If two users of these interfaces interleave, then you could > get: > > thread1 thread2 > > vfs_write_suspend() > <- fs is suspended there > vfs_write_suspend() <- returns 0 > vfs_write_resume() > <- fs is no more suspended > thread2 is burned in flame > > Snapshots are protected against this because they are created through > the mount(2). The mount(2) locks the covered vnode and thus serializes > snapshot creation (I think there are further serialization points that > prevent simultaneous snapshotting of the same fs). > > There is nothing I can see that protects snapshots/gjournal interaction. Looks like something to be quite concerned about. Thank you for the analysis. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 08:39:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947961065671 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:39:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail18.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail18.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221558FC18 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:39:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-215-175.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.215.175]) by mail18.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m558d8N2007679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:39:10 +1000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m558d8F8078215; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:39:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m558d76I078214; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:39:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:39:07 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Jo Rhett Message-ID: <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Vr2UxLU0KdcKBaxP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:39:12 -0000 --Vr2UxLU0KdcKBaxP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2008-Jun-04 22:22:33 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: >And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to work= =20 >for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 because= =20 >6.3 isn't ready yet. So you have stated. When asked to provide evidence to backup that statement, you have refused. Since you are the one claiming that "6.3 isn't ready yet", the onus is on you to put up or shut up. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --Vr2UxLU0KdcKBaxP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhHpisACgkQ/opHv/APuIcy1QCfX9/ypMSfTMoVJBCZFYjrpXmd W7IAnjeqJKJo5pqK5OlztcGWsclUY4Uj =ZfAf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Vr2UxLU0KdcKBaxP-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 09:47:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25AEE106566C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:47:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (core6.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A9B8FC25 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:47:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=multiplay.co.uk; s=Multiplay; t=1212659131; x=1213263931; q=dns/txt; h=Received: Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=/Bx/9Qb7trZXb5EW2gZJt KT50f8JG3F9lY2RiKli3qs=; b=JuYgq5bhhAOJ1zS/hEjW0sa+kL2ENDDPDiHWE xhpU/RUnbMXARbJWRFCv1lE9uxvczYCCskpranHKfU3gthJ6UeMVuRh0Hi9euX1h wMEIVJNNv3VNP7Ux75Ys/O10TkUSXdSKqfifmTADjszI5MQ2hjO0YXX8a1DoH50g aCwO0k= X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.7 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from r2d2 by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50005713126.msg for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:45:30 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: Killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDRemoteIP: 212.135.219.182 X-Return-Path: prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Jo Rhett" , "Max Laier" References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:45:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:45:30 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:45:31 +0100 Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:47:55 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Rhett" > The bugs in question were very well documented. None of them were in > a state indicating that the developer could not reproduce nor were > they waiting for more info. Given that situation, I didn't see a > need to add more to a known problem. > > *IF* any of them had been looking for test cases, I would have been > happy to build a test system and turn it over to the developer in > question. We do that fairly routinely. > > And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to > work for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 > because 6.3 isn't ready yet. You are still fail to take to the time to even tell people what these bugs are, no ones a mind reader! People are trying to help you here but all I'm hearing is a child like "It doesn't work fix it", with no willingness to even explain what it is or provide resources to test if someone found the time to investigate your issues. Given this I don't see how you can expect these so called issues to ever get fixed. Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 10:25:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15687106568D; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:25:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (cain.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 415D18FC16; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:25:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from inchoate.gsoft.com.au (ppp121-45-95-82.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net [121.45.95.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m559u73q059599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:26:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:25:52 +0930 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2126512.FmOUpo1CoD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200806051926.01116.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -2.212 () BAYES_00,RDNS_DYNAMIC X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 203.31.81.10 Cc: Jo Rhett , Edwin Groothuis , Doug Barton , Steven Hartland Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:25:09 -0000 --nextPart2126512.FmOUpo1CoD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Jo Rhett wrote: > I mean, seriously, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting > your systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home > system, no problem. But I can't do this in a production environment. I have 3ware based RELENG_6 systems running without trouble but I don't=20 load them very much. I think the only way forward would be to do a binary search to find the=20 broken code - that means someone who experiences the problem needs to=20 do the testing... I know doing a binary search IS a PITA timewise but since noone seems to=20 know what the underlying problem is it would seem to be the only way=20 forward. =2D-=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C --nextPart2126512.FmOUpo1CoD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.8 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBIR7gx5ZPcIHs/zowRAtV8AKCQ7pe4buXAhNqTI6sixwbcnAZTkQCfUZqD P5GqNosyM/8wmsL1PYsllGg= =uv1D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2126512.FmOUpo1CoD-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 11:34:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929281065673 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.231]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E49B8FC19 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so699298rvf.43 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:34:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ZzQo+mwFijJvsJBAaq4dQpJEV5UXa5kV7R5lbsFjTTg=; b=pQDRfjoJjlvNjtT3k4h23fjvKI/0pJRqx/BrstVtJ8RUaWKIOGm0L1YuoD5NP55Bdl WeewmpDqHJqUvjmpVflZZkJYYZuOt1skEf9yXyq0o17K4Bl3kLv/jlGX2aprZiXW+XNt 2OfRKy5jNGz8uix2KZK5RjpJlrg0CxgIdEPhs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ogQGK1mz1waqCUuUmGJ+tUa0SyZNVCq9BmJe13JnkAD1Ik2sY87sf0d+UyFMUPCuwj ErbM9iRt4EsmD8nmTZyDLZ6nT2hK3kbbngYsUp3nK0togsrcuWl/w38xvLs+8wuoCKoH gl1G+nFmehO13kIMakYb+l2cRScpznKOZlP3Q= Received: by 10.140.203.9 with SMTP id a9mr727982rvg.288.1212665659204; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.70.11 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 04:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:34:19 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Jo Rhett" In-Reply-To: <1A050712-3D0F-4263-A9F8-EE4AD042486E@netconsonance.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <7B8FD1A1E7DA49DFA68252BF9C74AE6F@multiplay.co.uk> <1A050712-3D0F-4263-A9F8-EE4AD042486E@netconsonance.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4cb759dd56f3e909 Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:34:19 -0000 2008/6/5 Jo Rhett : > > The bugs in question are *not* replicable in 6.2, and each of the bug > reports has said so. > > This is the major point of concern for us. What happened between 6.2 and > 6.3 to break so many drivers? > If its of major concern for you, then allocate some man hours, grab the /usr/src/sys diffs between RELENG_6_2_0_RELEASE and RELENG_6_3_0_RELEASE. The others on the list have stated over and over again that they haven't seen any issues and would like to know precisely what they are. The diff between 6.2 and 6.3 /usr/src/sys is ~ 440,000 lines in total. I can put the diff online for you if you'd like. If stability is your main concern then you could throw some resources at fixing 6.3 or throw some resources at backporting security fixes to 6.2. I'm sure noone has an agenda to squish the FreeBSD version you're using for any reason other than there aren't enough people volunteering / being paid to work on back-porting security fixes. 2c, Adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 12:03:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF908106566B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:03:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bms@FreeBSD.org) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB768FC1F for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:03:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bms@FreeBSD.org) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.internal [10.202.2.41]) by out1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CF4112888; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:03:06 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: onWoNmeANV8lU25xNTSQrc0DQTYflt2lydf2REKVgIQx 1212667386 Received: from empiric.lon.incunabulum.net (82-35-112-254.cable.ubr07.dals.blueyonder.co.uk [82.35.112.254]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ED0F11EB0E; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:03:04 +0100 From: "Bruce M. Simpson" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080514) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:03:07 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > > I am suggesting that given that the current bug list for 6.3-RELEASE > is both (a) too large and (b) breaks things that work fine in 6.2 ... > that I think pushing 6.2 (the real stable release) into EoL is a bit > rushed. I sympathize with the development costs of maintaining old > versions. Again, I will help in any way I can. I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having. It is worth remembering that FreeBSD is an open source project, and it's maintained on a best-effort basis -- it is offered for free and without any warranty. Like any other open source project, risk management and change management becomes a two-way street, because that's the trade-off struck with the open source model. The risks, as well as the benefits, have to be factored in carefully to your company's technology strategy, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm very surprised that the 6.3 train has been a big issue for you, although speaking from the development side of the fence, there are a lot of moving targets, and vendor support of the OS does play a part. It is difficult to offer any more specific advice without knowing in more detail exactly what's causing such problems for you, although I see you've offered general pointers, the folk directly involved need to be pointed at direct information. The FreeBSD Project just doesn't have the resources to do compatibility testing on the scale of e.g. Windows Hardware Quality Labs, as I'm sure you are also aware. I take on board what you say about your organisation holding back on an upgrade because there are PRs filed for the hardware you use, and having worked in an investment banking environment, I understand this level of conservatism is warranted. However, I point out again: it's the open source model, and where hardware compatibility is concerned, it really is a case of "suck it and see". Always has been, no different anywhere else. Open source requires user participation. Microsoft run the WHQL because their status as a going concern depends on it. I'm pleased to hear about your offer of hardware resources for developers. However, this is only part of the problem. To my mind, you need to find the right people, with the right skills, to deal with the issues, and quite often, those guys are already in demand, and thus their time can attract a high value. Open source succeeds because money is not the only motivation. The alternative is DIY, and that is "the point". If you need firm guarantees about support, consider contracting with someone to do that. Many companies using FreeBSD already outsource this kind of support requirement to 3rd parties. There are also FreeBSD hardware vendors who support FreeBSD as a platform. If you want someone to take responsibility, make 'em an offer. thanks, BMS From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 12:51:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0271065676; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:51:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D938FC20; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:51:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4DE3E1CC031; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 05:51:05 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: "Bruce M. Simpson" Message-ID: <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:51:05 -0000 On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 01:03:04PM +0100, Bruce M. Simpson wrote: > Jo Rhett wrote: >> >> I am suggesting that given that the current bug list for 6.3-RELEASE is >> both (a) too large and (b) breaks things that work fine in 6.2 ... that I >> think pushing 6.2 (the real stable release) into EoL is a bit rushed. I >> sympathize with the development costs of maintaining old versions. Again, >> I will help in any way I can. > > I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having. If the exact regression between 6.2 and 6.3 can be tracked down, great. If it's in a specific driver, CVS commit logs or cvsweb will come in handy. Otherwise, if it's some larger piece of code ("ohai i revamped the intrupt handlar!"), chances of finding it are slimmer. I'm a bit disappointed that Jo hasn't explicitly mentioned what's broken in 6.3 that's affecting him, because that might help everyone. Heck, I'll even add it to my Commonly reported issue wiki page. PRs would be good, but I'll gladly take past mailing list discussions. Jo's opinion is reasonable, but the bottom line is that the FreeBSD Project folks will always win the argument once the "it's best-effort" trump card is played; the convo has to end once it's on the table. I consider myself an advocate of open-source, but simultaneously, was raised as a child to take responsibility for things I bring unto others. I do not publicly release code/binaries for things I do not wish to provide support for. Likewise, bugs in my software are my fault, thus thus my responsibility to fix. The FreeBSD Project does things differently than how I do. I have a hard time understanding the opposing view, but every time it comes up, I try a little harder to be open-minded about it. Jo, as we share somewhat of the same viewpoint, I'll mention that it would be within our best interest to try and understand the other viewpoint, and hope that the results of (positive) karma are seen down the road someday. > If you want someone to take responsibility, make 'em an offer. In my case, with some FreeBSD bugs in the past, I have offered monetary compensation (hourly wages, reasonable by Bay Area standards) to developers to fix issues -- only to receive absolutely no response. Offering monetary compensation is not a solution, and I believe that's because the core problem isn't lack of pay -- it's lack of time. That's one which is really hard to solve, no matter what the conditions of an open-source project. On the other hand, there was the "donation thing" phk@ did when he was out of work, which I felt was great. I still feel good about donating to that. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 13:16:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6196F1065670 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB3A8FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5662085; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:09:28 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:09:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> (Jo Rhett's message of "Wed\, 4 Jun 2008 16\:34\:04 -0700") Message-ID: <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:16:51 -0000 Jo Rhett writes: > Absolutely not saying that. In fact, we had 6.3 upgrade on the books > for April but when I looked in April there were still open bugs. I > looked in late May and saw the same. So we punted to late June > (because the original end of life was June 30th) and then suddenly > we're getting messages every night saying that we're unsupported. The EoL for 6.2 was never June 30th. It was originally set to January 31st when 6.2 was released, then extended by four months to May 31st. If you have issues with 6.3, your time would be better spent reporting them (by which I mean describe them in detail) than waving your hands in the air and yelling at people. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 13:18:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEAD6106566C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:18:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hausen@punkt.de) Received: from kagate.punkt.de (kagate.punkt.de [217.29.33.131]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C658FC1B; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:18:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hausen@punkt.de) Received: from hugo10.ka.punkt.de (hugo10.ka.punkt.de [10.0.0.110]) by kagate1.punkt.de with ESMTP id m55D3LA5042185; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:03:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hugo10.ka.punkt.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hugo10.ka.punkt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55D3KGO045499; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:03:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ry93@hugo10.ka.punkt.de) Received: (from ry93@localhost) by hugo10.ka.punkt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m55D3KSr045498; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:03:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ry93) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:03:20 +0200 From: "Patrick M. Hausen" To: Jeremy Chadwick Message-ID: <20080605130320.GC40682@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Jo Rhett , FreeBSD Stable , "Bruce M. Simpson" Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:18:07 -0000 Hi, all, On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 05:51:05AM -0700, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 01:03:04PM +0100, Bruce M. Simpson wrote: > > Jo Rhett wrote: > >> > >> I am suggesting that given that the current bug list for 6.3-RELEASE is > >> both (a) too large and (b) breaks things that work fine in 6.2 ... that I > >> think pushing 6.2 (the real stable release) into EoL is a bit rushed. I > >> sympathize with the development costs of maintaining old versions. Again, > >> I will help in any way I can. > > > > I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having. > > If the exact regression between 6.2 and 6.3 can be tracked down, great. > If it's in a specific driver, CVS commit logs or cvsweb will come in > handy. Otherwise, if it's some larger piece of code ("ohai i revamped > the intrupt handlar!"), chances of finding it are slimmer. I'm a bit > disappointed that Jo hasn't explicitly mentioned what's broken in 6.3 > that's affecting him, because that might help everyone. Heck, I'll even > add it to my Commonly reported issue wiki page. PRs would be good, but > I'll gladly take past mailing list discussions. Since we, too, use quite a few machines in production, most of them 6.3 BTW, i spent some time searching the PRs with the keyword "3ware" and varying combinations of release, severity, etc. I was not able to find anything with respect to that hardware that wasn't recorded as early as 6.1. em0 lockups were fixed around 6.1 for us with Jack Vogels kind assistance (and hardware provided by us ;-) Kind regards, Patrick M. Hausen Leiter Netzwerke und Sicherheit -- punkt.de GmbH * Kaiserallee 13a * 76133 Karlsruhe Tel. 0721 9109 0 * Fax 0721 9109 100 info@punkt.de http://www.punkt.de Gf: Jürgen Egeling AG Mannheim 108285 From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 13:21:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72011106564A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:21:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEFA8FC0C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:21:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63AC12086; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:06:11 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:06:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Jo Rhett's message of "Wed\, 4 Jun 2008 16\:46\:01 -0700") Message-ID: <8663sof2v1.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Kris Kennaway , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:21:51 -0000 Jo Rhett writes: > It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 bugs > outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. The EoL date for 6.2 was pushed back *once* and once only, and that was not in response to any specific bug report. See for yourself: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/www/en/security/security.sgml DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:18:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691CF1065670 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:18:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10EA48FC27 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:18:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 71563 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 13:41:22 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-1.8/5.0):. Processed in 5.746919 secs); 05 Jun 2008 13:41:22 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.8 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-1.8/5.0):. Processed in 5.746919 secs Process 71516) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 13:41:16 -0000 Message-ID: <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:51:30 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway , FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:18:58 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Jo Rhett wrote: >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by the >>> 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 release >>> itself. >> >> >> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 bugs >> outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >> >> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >> > > I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your > expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself > instead of assuming that it will fail. > > Kris In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those who don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other projects have done this will relative success and considering the "only" work required for this release would be security patches the work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their work on the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:28:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F059106567D; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:28:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB208FC0C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:28:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:28:36 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Marlatt References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:28:37 -0000 Chris Marlatt wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Jo Rhett wrote: >>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>>> release itself. >>> >>> >>> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 bugs >>> outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >>> >>> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >>> >> >> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >> instead of assuming that it will fail. >> >> Kris > > In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who believe > FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those who don't. > Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules debated the > option of setting a long term support release, a specific release picked > by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other projects have done > this will relative success and considering the "only" work required for > this release would be security patches the work load should be > minimized. Hopefully something like this could free up more time for the > FreeBSD developers to continue their work on the newer release(s) while > still answering the requests of what seems like quite a few of the > legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? > > If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a > dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the support announcements? They are public ;) Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:44:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E628610656C2 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:44:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gonzo@freebsd.org) Received: from luidgi.portaone.com (luidgi.portaone.com [195.138.219.143]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA92A8FC1E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:44:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gonzo@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.pbxpress.com ([65.61.203.142] helo=leaf.pbxpress.com) by luidgi.portaone.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256)id 1K4F1W-0001kG-L8; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:56:58 -0700 Received: from jeeves.bluezbox.com (k3-gw.portaone.com [193.28.87.193]) (authenticated bits=0) by leaf.pbxpress.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m55D0RHf026898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gonzo@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4847E2A4.2020509@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:57:08 +0300 From: Oleksandr Tymoshenko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070907) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Motin References: <48470853.6080807@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <48470853.6080807@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, recieved from trusted server Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crashes in devfs. Possibly on interface creation/destruction. X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:44:33 -0000 Alexander Motin wrote: > Hi. > > After recent upgrading from 6.3-RC1/mpd-5.0rc1 to 6.3-STABLE/mpd-5.1 > some of my PPPoE servers started to crash with about weekly period. > Usually they just just hang without rebooting and core dumping. Consoles > are inaccessible. All I have got from them was: > > kernel: Fatal trap 12: page fau > kernel: lt while in k > kernel: ernel > kernel: mode > kernel: > kernel: cpuid = 1; apic id = 01 > kernel: faut virtual address = 0x58 > kernel: > kernel: fault code = supervisor read, page not present > kernel: > kernel: instruction pointer = 0x20:0xc04800be > kernel: > kernel: stack pointer = 0x28:0xd690883c > kernel: frame pointer = 0x28:0 > kernel: xd6908854 > kernel: code segment = > kernel: base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > kernel: > kernel: = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gra > kernel: n 1 > kernel: processor eflags = interrupt > kernel: enab > kernel: led, r > kernel: esume > kernel: , IOPL > kernel: = 0 > kernel: > kernel: current process = 1835 (mpd5) > kernel: > kernel: trap number = 12 > > "fault virtual address" and "instruction pointer" are always the same. > > Address 0xc04800be looks like part of devfs code: > > addr2line -f -e kernel.debug 0xc04800be > devfs_populate_loop > /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_devs.c:443 > > devfs_devs.c: > de = devfs_newdirent(s, q - s); > if (cdp->cdp_c.si_flags & SI_ALIAS) { > de->de_uid = 0; > de->de_gid = 0; > de->de_mode = 0755; > de->de_dirent->d_type = DT_LNK; > pdev = cdp->cdp_c.si_parent; > ->> line 443 ->> j = strlen(pdev->si_name) + 1; > de->de_symlink = malloc(j, M_DEVFS, M_WAITOK); > bcopy(pdev->si_name, de->de_symlink, j); > > 0x58 - is precisely the offset of si_name field inside of struct cdev. > So looks like pdev = cdp->cdp_c.si_parent is NULL here for some reason. > > As soon as network interfaces have respective devfs entries and looking > higher interface creation/destruction rate that newest mpd5.1 is able to > reach due to optimizations, I think it may be some kind or race > somewhere interface creation. > > Can somebody give me any hint where to look to? On a quick glance the most likely place is make_dev_alias call in net/if.c line 457. And the most likely suspect is race for if_index variable. There are even a couple of "XXX: should be locked" notes there :) -- gonzo From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:46:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191281065678 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:46:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B6D1F8FC2A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:46:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 96773 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 14:35:19 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.101 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.101):SA:0(-2.5/5.0):. Processed in 8.774434 secs); 05 Jun 2008 14:35:19 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.101):SA:0(-2.5/5.0):. Processed in 8.774434 secs Process 96701) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.101?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.101) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 14:35:10 -0000 Message-ID: <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:41:33 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:46:15 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>>>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>>>> release itself. >>>> >>>> >>>> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 >>>> bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >>>> >>>> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >>>> >>> >>> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >>> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >>> instead of assuming that it will fail. >>> >>> Kris >> >> In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who >> believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those who >> don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules >> debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific >> release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other >> projects have done this will relative success and considering the >> "only" work required for this release would be security patches the >> work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could >> free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their work on >> the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems >> like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? >> >> If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a >> dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. > > Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the > support announcements? They are public ;) > > Kris I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been 24 months with others being only 12. Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:57:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90271065679 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FDC8FC27 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Ev2oJ098582; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:57:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:23:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:57:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7369/Thu Jun 5 09:19:11 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Jo Rhett Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:57:10 -0000 On Wednesday 04 June 2008 01:20:56 pm Jo Rhett wrote: > Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from > 6.2 to 6.3. But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with things > that are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case to > make. > > This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and > money for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand > obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old... FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 patches for known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for 6.2 that never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also have many machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less issues with bge0 devices than 6.2. Given the real world experience I have, your claims of instability w/o even testing 6.3 border on silly. Also, when it comes to bge(4), you need to be _very_ specific about what chipsets you are using and comparing those with the chipsets in the bug reports you read. The bge(4) driver in particular covers a vast range of different hardware variations and is a bit of a hodge-podge itself. If there is a problem with a 5705 card then it may be specific to just 5705 parts and not affect 575x, etc. parts. Again, with 3ware, there are two different drivers (twe(4) vs twa(4)) and again, you need to be more specific with which driver you are using and which model controllers you have. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:57:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9881065723 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014F98FC0C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Ev2oK098582; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:57:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:40:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> In-Reply-To: <48471834.30905@modulus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806051040.28319.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:57:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7369/Thu Jun 5 09:19:11 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Evren Yurtesen , Andrew Snow Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo (was: powerd is doing nothing?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:57:18 -0000 On Wednesday 04 June 2008 06:33:24 pm Andrew Snow wrote: > Evren Yurtesen wrote: > > > When you say that it doesnt work, does it give an error or? In my case > > it doesnt give any errors just says it set it but I see that nothing is > > set. > > Here's one box: > > CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8500 @ 3.16GHz > cpu0: on acpi0 > est0: on cpu0 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 61a49200600091a > device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 > > > Here's another one: > CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz > cpu0: on acpi0 > est0: on cpu0 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 > device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 You can try http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/est_msr.patch. It won't give you the full range of speeds for you CPU, but it should give you the high and low values that we can guess from the upper 32-bits of the MSR. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:57:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D4B10657DF; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769328FC13; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Ev2oL098582; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: Alfred Perlstein Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:51:05 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <200806041044.01712.jhb@freebsd.org> <20080605061931.GF48790@elvis.mu.org> In-Reply-To: <20080605061931.GF48790@elvis.mu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806051051.05495.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:57:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7369/Thu Jun 5 09:19:11 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:57:25 -0000 On Thursday 05 June 2008 02:19:31 am Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * John Baldwin [080604 11:12] wrote: > > On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:04:18 pm Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > BTW, your MUA's list-reply configuration don't recognize that > > > freebsd-stable@ and stable@ are aliases. > > > > Yes, kmail is broken and the authors refuse to fix it. It happens on reply to > > a foo@ e-mail (it changes the 'To' to 'freebsd-foo@' because of the List-Id > > header and leaves foo@ in the 'CC' field). Note that there isn't anything in > > the List headers that says that foo@ is an alias for freebsd-foo@. I just > > wish I could turn off the List-Id crap and use plain old reply-to-all, but > > that is where the kmail developers disagree. > > wtf.....why not just have a checkbox to toggle the behavior? That was my request (and I found at least 2 other open bugs for the same issue when I looked again yesterday). The developers reply was "an option is not an option". -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:57:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CABF1065709 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15E88FC13 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:57:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Ev2oO098582; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:57:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:56:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <20080604225312.GA2625@slackbox.xs4all.nl> <484720AF.8000405@ispro.net> In-Reply-To: <484720AF.8000405@ispro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806051056.55675.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:57:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7369/Thu Jun 5 09:19:11 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Evren Yurtesen , Andrew Snow , Roland Smith Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:57:44 -0000 On Wednesday 04 June 2008 07:09:35 pm Evren Yurtesen wrote: > Roland Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 08:33:24AM +1000, Andrew Snow wrote: > >> Here's another one: > >> CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz > >> cpu0: on acpi0 > >> est0: on cpu0 > >> est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > >> est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 > >> device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 > >> p4tcc0: on cpu0 > > > > I had this on a new core2 quad. Updating to a recent 7-STABLE fixed the > > issue for me. > > Did any of you tried chkfreq which comes with acpi_ppc > http://www.spa.is.uec.ac.jp/~nfukuda/software/ to check if the cpu frequency is > actually changing? chkfreq checks the frequency by reading the TSC and comparing it across a sleep. However, newer CPUs actually fix the TSC to increment at a constant rate (so at lower CPU speeds 1 CPU tick may actuall be N TSC ticks) to make it easier to use the TSC for timekeeping. Thus, chkfreq will think that newer CPUs are running at the maximum speed when they aren't. This is actually a feature of newer CPUs. Try turning off powerd and using 'openssl speed rsa' at different frequencies to check for real frequency changes. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:01:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8DE1065673; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573378FC20; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:01:50 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Marlatt References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:01:50 -0000 Chris Marlatt wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Chris Marlatt wrote: >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>>>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>>>>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>>>>> release itself. >>>>> >>>>> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 >>>>> bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >>>>> >>>>> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >>>>> >>>> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >>>> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >>>> instead of assuming that it will fail. >>>> >>>> Kris >>> In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who >>> believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those who >>> don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules >>> debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific >>> release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other >>> projects have done this will relative success and considering the >>> "only" work required for this release would be security patches the >>> work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could >>> free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their work on >>> the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems >>> like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? >>> >>> If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a >>> dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. >> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the >> support announcements? They are public ;) >> >> Kris > > I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such > a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been > 24 months with others being only 12. Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". Don't like it? Do something about it. Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:02:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFC71065674 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:02:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (skuns.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CC48FC19 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:02:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (root@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua [10.1.1.148]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55B4qdY006183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:04:52 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55B4p3P024725; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:04:51 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m55B4lh3024722; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:04:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:04:47 +0300 From: Kostik Belousov To: Alexander Motin Message-ID: <20080605110447.GB94309@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <48470853.6080807@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48470853.6080807@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crashes in devfs. Possibly on interface creation/destruction. X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:02:41 -0000 --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 12:25:39AM +0300, Alexander Motin wrote: > Hi. >=20 > After recent upgrading from 6.3-RC1/mpd-5.0rc1 to 6.3-STABLE/mpd-5.1=20 > some of my PPPoE servers started to crash with about weekly period.=20 > Usually they just just hang without rebooting and core dumping. Consoles= =20 > are inaccessible. All I have got from them was: >=20 > kernel: Fatal trap 12: page fau > kernel: lt while in k > kernel: ernel > kernel: mode > kernel: > kernel: cpuid =3D 1; apic id =3D 01 > kernel: faut virtual address =3D 0x58 > kernel: > kernel: fault code =3D supervisor read, page not present > kernel: > kernel: instruction pointer =3D 0x20:0xc04800be > kernel: > kernel: stack pointer =3D 0x28:0xd690883c > kernel: frame pointer =3D 0x28:0 > kernel: xd6908854 > kernel: code segment =3D > kernel: base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > kernel: > kernel: =3D DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gra > kernel: n 1 > kernel: processor eflags =3D interrupt > kernel: enab > kernel: led, r > kernel: esume > kernel: , IOPL > kernel: =3D 0 > kernel: > kernel: current process =3D 1835 (mpd5) > kernel: > kernel: trap number =3D 12 >=20 > "fault virtual address" and "instruction pointer" are always the same. >=20 > Address 0xc04800be looks like part of devfs code: > > addr2line -f -e kernel.debug 0xc04800be > devfs_populate_loop > /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_devs.c:443 >=20 > devfs_devs.c: > de =3D devfs_newdirent(s, q - s); > if (cdp->cdp_c.si_flags & SI_ALIAS) { > de->de_uid =3D 0; > de->de_gid =3D 0; > de->de_mode =3D 0755; > de->de_dirent->d_type =3D DT_LNK; > pdev =3D cdp->cdp_c.si_parent; > ->> line 443 ->> j =3D strlen(pdev->si_name) + 1; > de->de_symlink =3D malloc(j, M_DEVFS, M_WAITOK); > bcopy(pdev->si_name, de->de_symlink, j); >=20 > 0x58 - is precisely the offset of si_name field inside of struct cdev.=20 > So looks like pdev =3D cdp->cdp_c.si_parent is NULL here for some reason. >=20 > As soon as network interfaces have respective devfs entries and looking= =20 > higher interface creation/destruction rate that newest mpd5.1 is able to= =20 > reach due to optimizations, I think it may be some kind or race=20 > somewhere interface creation. >=20 > Can somebody give me any hint where to look to? Try the following patch. It is against current, there might be further races at the device destruction, but may be not. Also, please note that devfs in RELENG_6 and RELENG_7/CURRENT are diverged enough to make MFC of most bugfixes to RELENG_6 nearly impossible. diff --git a/sys/kern/kern_conf.c b/sys/kern/kern_conf.c index e9d0f7b..af9a47d 100644 --- a/sys/kern/kern_conf.c +++ b/sys/kern/kern_conf.c @@ -825,9 +825,9 @@ make_dev_alias(struct cdev *pdev, const char *fmt, ...) va_end(ap); =20 devfs_create(dev); + dev_dependsl(pdev, dev); clean_unrhdrl(devfs_inos); dev_unlock(); - dev_depends(pdev, dev); =20 notify_create(dev); =20 --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhHyE8ACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4i1ugCeK8fu6zpdX4CKQLPDzy3F+ONO JgUAni7/sU+i2wgpCxT7+CNXqNTCtzLX =08mK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:12:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE99106566C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:12:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.238]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFB38FC16 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:12:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so798594rvf.43 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:12:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=8OHDX+pllhQj0Adr6QaAO4OW9RJ9m9A28wda8i14XSc=; b=jTvgQucLOHSdMjx28oIjIaguUb7vI7Pz5Gmv/4D8uqpm1YFmhLwUR1aRqHCE7iHWwT F+5Pbf283vu9SrVVskB65ytNzvvI0PpPFP6IueJcXlhyQQrye0DYdfgQ2kwIWXwIC8XE zeNqKnAuiXSK9DisL0kAYtPGlINZvWkM9YRFA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=jOrpYLrxfWf6kkZrOqM9nyYH9Vywk9Jy9Q6ywrJ8bZUUlKa53/ITZb5p3r2sMelU4+ pbXGk1yMcGUwgahXXJ3Av0MpOtc8WpJzw081k4SEsrYw1sLmKOOUrvllwQACUnL0XtL9 jYAq5oRvCKldb+nPettuc3x8FtozSd4shUViI= Received: by 10.141.68.12 with SMTP id v12mr960224rvk.111.1212678748355; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.70.11 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:12:28 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Chris Marlatt" In-Reply-To: <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: fe67b8a7ba508d98 Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:12:28 -0000 2008/6/5 Chris Marlatt : >> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the >> support announcements? They are public ;) >> >> Kris > > I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such > a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been > 24 months with others being only 12. Noone is stopping -anyone- from doing the Debian/ubuntu thing and breaking off snapshots of FreeBSD to roll in a slightly different way. This is happening with PCBSD, for example. The project is doing what it can with what people are contributing. If you'd like a distribution supported for longer then offer to help maintain it. You may be surprised how helpful people get when you offer to help. :0 Adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org (Still inactive...) From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:18:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61473106567B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:18:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from petefrench@ticketswitch.com) Received: from angel.ticketswitch.com (angel.ticketswitch.com [IPv6:2002:57e0:1d4e::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ECF18FC1D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:18:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from petefrench@ticketswitch.com) Received: from [10.50.50.2] (helo=smaug.rattatosk) by angel.ticketswitch.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4HEV-0009FA-Me for stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:18:31 +0100 Received: from dilbert.rattatosk ([10.50.50.6] helo=dilbert.ticketswitch.com) by smaug.rattatosk with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4HEV-000Eyg-KB for stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:18:31 +0100 Received: from petefrench by dilbert.ticketswitch.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4HEV-000OqS-JY for stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:18:31 +0100 To: stable@freebsd.org Message-Id: From: Pete French Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:18:31 +0100 Cc: Subject: gmirror patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:18:33 -0000 Has anybody else had a chance to try the gmirror patches I posted here a few weeks ago ? I;ve had no feedback so far - not sre if thats good news or just that nobody tried them. they can be found here if people are interested: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=123630 I;ve been running ths for a month with no ill effecets whatsoever, and would very much like to get this commited somehow. I am not sure of the best way to do this though, as it's not an actual bug per-se. Whom would I approach about getting this added to the tree ? cheers, -pete. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:21:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E771065674 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3C2C8FC17 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:21:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 14260 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 15:10:40 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.3/5.0):. Processed in 2.678856 secs); 05 Jun 2008 15:10:40 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.3 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.3/5.0):. Processed in 2.678856 secs Process 14213) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 15:10:37 -0000 Message-ID: <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:21:23 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:21:36 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Chris Marlatt wrote: >>>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>>>>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>>>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>>>>>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>>>>>> release itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 >>>>>> bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >>>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >>>>> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >>>>> instead of assuming that it will fail. >>>>> >>>>> Kris >>>> In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who >>>> believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those who >>>> don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules >>>> debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific >>>> release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other >>>> projects have done this will relative success and considering the >>>> "only" work required for this release would be security patches the >>>> work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could >>>> free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their work on >>>> the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems >>>> like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? >>>> >>>> If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a >>>> dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. >>> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the >>> support announcements? They are public ;) >>> >>> Kris >> >> I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such >> a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been >> 24 months with others being only 12. > > Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". Don't > like it? Do something about it. > > Kris You seem awful hostile - do you really think that's the best way to represent the project you're involved with? Initially belittle someone for offering their opinion and then when they reply telling them to do it themselves or shut up? Try and have an open mind about these things. The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support for a longer period of time. Keep all other releases to 12 month support and continue doing what I believe is some fairly incredible work. I really don't see the downside to it. If anything it should reduce the work load for the team and let them focus on making considerable progress. Especially considering Ken Smith's recent post regarding future release schedules. IMHO, the attitude and opinion you have right now accomplishes nothing other than alienating your supporters. Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:33:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9851E106566C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 429DC8FC20 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 19354 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 15:22:31 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.0/5.0):. Processed in 1.590148 secs); 05 Jun 2008 15:22:31 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.0/5.0):. Processed in 1.590148 secs Process 19331) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 15:22:29 -0000 Message-ID: <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:33:16 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Chadd References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:33:27 -0000 Adrian Chadd wrote: > The project is doing what it can with what people are contributing. If What if it can accomplish the same or more by simply reorganizing what it's already doing? I completely understand the apparent situation - if you look at it from all angles it appears to be no different than that of the people apposed to the recent scheduling changes FreeBSD has made. There's a limited amount of people and time to do everything. > you'd like a distribution supported for longer then offer to help > maintain it. You may be surprised how helpful people get when you > offer to help. :0 Again IMHO the only message coming across here is either do it yourself or keep your mouth shut. The other side of the coin here is - what's to say the FreeBSD project requires what I can offer? Granted it's been sometime since I've browsed the entire FreeBSD.org site but last I checked there wasn't an area devoted to the needs of the project. Furthermore, just because someone isn't providing assistance doesn't mean that their concerns should go unheard. It's quite possible what was proposed is an awful idea and if it is so be it. But it would appear as though it wasn't even considered. Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:33:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E791065680 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.232]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25ED8FC17 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:33:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so808269rvf.43 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:33:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=npYtPwCadI2UuA6cEPdCBgUI6CE6Ntu4ZOk4YJDDJFI=; b=ZzKMujqdRvNiyEz5fNhPnaMhqiSJwZzP8z3rEr9mKre1TwTAnhgVognJJSJV72rjal wFKuqqjMLvia5WIgzcA745ypGdNa1sbo7seGecQ+BH0lshc8IpWPHx5gOtHnyS4B8hNa br5vRcnpSQIyWoADDQTsECS9h5ZvOitiBvNYo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=JtE3zckkVZJYhdqHu/ckn+og2hv7LEAOi4vvJjJ65oh0DYJk8CHwLhWH/B3T4fTtFM KzNRtCOVTfvPF3hDWAPhtNr6wxR6kZLj8K1kIwfvd+7oHhKUwt51fx1gGOuonOQmMK3z hNlBqvNgbrIauCvG839ZFeXtYiUR2P5VeoHEk= Received: by 10.141.128.19 with SMTP id f19mr953900rvn.257.1212680035278; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.70.11 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:33:55 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Chris Marlatt" In-Reply-To: <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 823fdbeea19d2f21 Cc: Jo Rhett , Kris Kennaway , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:33:56 -0000 2008/6/5 Chris Marlatt : > The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both interests. > Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support for a longer > period of time. Keep all other releases to 12 month support and continue > doing what I believe is some fairly incredible work. I really don't see the > downside to it. If anything it should reduce the work load for the team and > let them focus on making considerable progress. Especially considering Ken > Smith's recent post regarding future release schedules. Please remember that: * the people generally pushing changes back down into RELENG_6 are doing so to (hopefully) fix bugs that they see in their production environments; * So the project is (in theory) being driven by people who have real needs and don't mind sharing; so * If you'd like to see this happen then please take charge and offer to trial it. :) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:39:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36ACD106566B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.229]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0506C8FC16 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so810584rvf.43 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=g8sHzkZMVVm6iTWUA6EUtRooldgifa31/5Mj43W7pk0=; b=Ea7r4CxxrveesghtPOj8hy/oDmFtcMfcdpOS/zdoDrR1zRZhl+ufUcR0bXVEKd4adt xbVCnRSdhhguXTPkpKBQFrBRqdTTLfifF+EhhnPJPLOVpB8NzeuW4UV/9qNUM/LKj3t/ SL3Tb0qF5punNEJAoA3/0SIZ3pnY9ytOBi3Ic= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=c9k2J5irWNzzBeEh7ekOLmf7Xx7jERaZoZJNOKPKd3mtf2FQhEcQiwgIv98iEWlaHo GGiWKxp3/hhkYS4hPn10q8bdJS3uP9fpsoShulzHBP4qGtrWR4BwNbR9c8vJCJMhNv59 9cX//3Yyrm+loRTJijMRhhRI54Xq0zLNSkdkk= Received: by 10.141.163.12 with SMTP id q12mr954367rvo.265.1212680357810; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.70.11 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:39:17 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Chris Marlatt" In-Reply-To: <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0f837fec0fb76cab Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:39:18 -0000 (I know I should really be studying, but this thread really irks me, as I have exactly this issue in the project _I_ am involved in..) 2008/6/5 Chris Marlatt : > Again IMHO the only message coming across here is either do it yourself or > keep your mouth shut. The other side of the coin here is - what's to say the Well, its "do it yourself or be helpful to people who are willing to do it". The OP stated "argh argh sky is falling with 6.3!" but hasn't yet listed PRs which indicate this to be happening. He's offered hardware in a week or two - which is great! - but what irks the developers is the large amount of noise and absolutely no useful information. Anyone can say "its broken!".. > FreeBSD project requires what I can offer? Granted it's been sometime since > I've browsed the entire FreeBSD.org site but last I checked there wasn't an > area devoted to the needs of the project. Whatever you want..? > Furthermore, just because someone isn't providing assistance doesn't mean > that their concerns should go unheard. It's quite possible what was proposed > is an awful idea and if it is so be it. But it would appear as though it > wasn't even considered. Thats true in say, your case. And, say another case like yours. But after hundreds of people who aren't providing assistance and are simply providing their 2c, it gets a bit tiresome. Its not that ALL of the comments aren't any good, its that wading through the crap to find the gems is more effort than fun, and people have real work to do! So yes, the way to contribute is to get involved. If you think there's a real desire to take FreeBSD-6.2 (as an example) and continue supporting security patches and critical bugfixes, versus the larger-scale changes which seem to have gone on in /usr/src/sys then just get together a group, generate some patches and submit them. At some point the poor sod who is committing your work will say "screw this, he's getting a commit bit".. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:39:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772FD1065691; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB2C8FC1A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:39:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:39:36 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Marlatt References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:39:37 -0000 Chris Marlatt wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Chris Marlatt wrote: >>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>> Chris Marlatt wrote: >>>>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>>>>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>>>>>>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>>>>>>> release itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 >>>>>>> bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >>>>>> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >>>>>> instead of assuming that it will fail. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kris >>>>> In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who >>>>> believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those who >>>>> don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules >>>>> debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific >>>>> release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other >>>>> projects have done this will relative success and considering the >>>>> "only" work required for this release would be security patches the >>>>> work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could >>>>> free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their work on >>>>> the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems >>>>> like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a >>>>> dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. >>>> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read >>>> the >>>> support announcements? They are public ;) >>>> >>>> Kris >>> >>> I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such >>> a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been >>> 24 months with others being only 12. >> >> Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". Don't >> like it? Do something about it. >> >> Kris > > You seem awful hostile - do you really think that's the best way to > represent the project you're involved with? Initially belittle someone > for offering their opinion and then when they reply telling them to do > it themselves or shut up? Try and have an open mind about these things. > > The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both > interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support for > a longer period of time. Keep all other releases to 12 month support and > continue doing what I believe is some fairly incredible work. I really > don't see the downside to it. If anything it should reduce the work load > for the team and let them focus on making considerable progress. > Especially considering Ken Smith's recent post regarding future release > schedules. > > IMHO, the attitude and opinion you have right now accomplishes nothing > other than alienating your supporters. There has been nothing of value offered in this thread, and it's only served to piss off a number of developers who already put huge amounts of volunteer time into supporting FreeBSD, and who take pride in the quality of their work. Asking the volunteers to a) fix unspecified problems that the submitter will not name in detail but which are OMG SHOWSTOPPER YOU MUST FIX b) donate even more unpaid time to supporting branches because it seems like a good "compromise" (!) shows a complete failure of understanding and frankly beggars belief. Such people are not acting as supporters of the project, however well-intentioned they may believe themselves to be. Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:42:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71215106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:42:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1318FC23 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:42:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,596,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="980291" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 10:33:18 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 577F223DE3; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:33:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:33:18 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Jo Rhett , Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:42:45 -0000 --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 18:39:07 +1000 Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Jun-04 22:22:33 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: >> And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to work >> for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 because >> 6.3 isn't ready yet. > > So you have stated. When asked to provide evidence to backup that > statement, you have refused. Since you are the one claiming that > "6.3 isn't ready yet", the onus is on you to put up or shut up. That is a blatant lie. He has stated repeatedly that there are *known* bugs, complete with bug reports, that are not resolved and that affect the hardware he uses. He has also stated that there is no need for him to provide further evidence of an already documented bug, yet he is willing to provide equipment with 6.3 RELEASE installed if any developer needs a platform to test and troubleshoot the bugs. What is the purpose of the insults and denigration? Do you really hope to accomplish something positive? -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:53:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D091065670 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:53:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hausen@punkt.de) Received: from kagate.punkt.de (kagate.punkt.de [217.29.33.131]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730958FC16 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:53:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hausen@punkt.de) Received: from hugo10.ka.punkt.de (hugo10.ka.punkt.de [10.0.0.110]) by kagate1.punkt.de with ESMTP id m55FrfMO043912 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:53:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hugo10.ka.punkt.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hugo10.ka.punkt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55Fre5D052076; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:53:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ry93@hugo10.ka.punkt.de) Received: (from ry93@localhost) by hugo10.ka.punkt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m55FrebS052075; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:53:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ry93) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:53:40 +0200 From: "Patrick M. Hausen" To: Paul Schmehl Message-ID: <20080605155340.GA51833@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Jo Rhett , Peter Jeremy , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:53:43 -0000 Hello, On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 10:33:18AM -0500, Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 18:39:07 +1000 Peter Jeremy > wrote: > >> On 2008-Jun-04 22:22:33 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: >>> And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to work >>> for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 because >>> 6.3 isn't ready yet. >> >> So you have stated. When asked to provide evidence to backup that >> statement, you have refused. Since you are the one claiming that >> "6.3 isn't ready yet", the onus is on you to put up or shut up. > > That is a blatant lie. He has stated repeatedly that there are *known* > bugs, complete with bug reports, that are not resolved and that affect the > hardware he uses. So he should at least be able to name the relevant PRs. Or name at least one. Then nobody would complain. But stating "it's all well documented" without providing evidence doesn't help. I for one was not able to find any open PRs that deal specifically with 3ware hardware and 6.3, but not 6.[0-2]. > He has also stated that there is no need for him to > provide further evidence of an already documented bug Agreed, but he should name the PRs he's referring to. You know, my crystal ball is at the shop for a check, and it seems like everybody else's is, too. Kind regards, Patrick M. Hausen Leiter Netzwerke und Sicherheit -- punkt.de GmbH * Kaiserallee 13a * 76133 Karlsruhe Tel. 0721 9109 0 * Fax 0721 9109 100 info@punkt.de http://www.punkt.de Gf: Jürgen Egeling AG Mannheim 108285 From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:58:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828AD1065674 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A5C48FC25 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:58:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 29613 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 15:47:56 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.6/5.0):. Processed in 4.867791 secs); 05 Jun 2008 15:47:56 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.6 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.6/5.0):. Processed in 4.867791 secs Process 29587) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 15:47:51 -0000 Message-ID: <48480D2E.2050006@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:58:38 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Chadd References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:58:53 -0000 Adrian Chadd wrote: > > The OP stated "argh argh sky is falling with 6.3!" but hasn't yet > listed PRs which indicate this to be happening. I'm glad we can agree on something. Providing the PRs is not a lot to ask. Especially if it provides some forward movement and gets the support he needs. I can certainly relate to a potentially standoff'ish approach that's been seen recently. It's easy to take people's criticism as completely negative regardless what is said. To be honest though - people are using FreeBSD because it's a good project to say the least. A few negative comments doesn't mean they think the whole project is trash. Excluding the fact that we're all human and have emotions / ego, you have to agree that such a hostile approach isn't really the best thing. Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:59:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2819A1065672 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:59:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.111]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB298FC23 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:59:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,596,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1239104" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 10:30:44 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 849D523DE3 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:30:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:30:44 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080605080344.f99347ec.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> References: <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <20080605003545.GP89632@k7.mavetju> <13A3FC54-B459-48C5-85CD-14CC38913838@netconsonance.com> <20080605080344.f99347ec.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:59:21 -0000 --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 08:03:44 +0200 Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:19:03 -0700 > Jo Rhett wrote: > >> Edwin, I've been building testbed environments for over 20 years in >> my professional career. I know a lot more than this basic concept. >> >> The costs in our environment for a proper testbed is $20k in >> hardware and 3000 man hours. That's for a small test of comparable >> small changes to the existing environment. >> >> Why would we take on this cost only to re-document well known and >> already acknowledged bugs? I mean, really? > > I'm surprised that a test environment (for upgrade testing, load > testing, release testing) isn't already in place. > Some people (customers and operators alike) might think it is > unprofessional and unsafe to run a production system without a test > system available. > > If you have a test system available, why don't you use it? I am offended by the tone of many of the responses to Jo Rhett's *legitimate* arguments that *perhaps* the EOL of 6.2 is a bit premature. I think some folks need to take a break, push away from the keyboard and reduce the insulting rhetoric they are casting his way. He has been more than clear that he routinely donates time and equipment to the community. If all you can do is insult him, perhaps you should consider shutting up. Please note: this is *not* directed only at the person to whom I responded but to all those who have chosen to take the low road rather than engage Jo in professional discussion. -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:59:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBB91065673 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:59:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no) Received: from osl1smout1.broadpark.no (osl1smout1.broadpark.no [80.202.4.58]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635B98FC17 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:59:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Received: from osl1sminn1.broadpark.no ([80.202.4.59]) by osl1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0K1Z00G7RZ2YL1D0@osl1smout1.broadpark.no> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:59:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kg-work.kg4.no ([80.202.72.251]) by osl1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with SMTP id <0K1Z00DJXZ2XV1B5@osl1sminn1.broadpark.no> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:59:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:59:21 +0200 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-id: <20080605175921.5e994658.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> In-reply-to: <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.3) X-Face: "t9w2,-X@O^I`jVW\sonI3.,36KBLZE*AL[y9lL[PyFD*r_S:dIL9c[8Y>V42R0"!"yb_zN,f#%.[PYYNq; m"_0v; ~rUM2Yy!zmkh)3&U|u!=T(zyv,MHJv"nDH>OJ`t(@mil461d_B'Uo|'nMwlKe0Mv=kvV?Nh@>Hb<3s_z2jYgZhPb@?Wi^x1a~Hplz1.zH Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:59:23 -0000 On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:51:05 -0700 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > Offering monetary compensation is not a solution, and I believe that's > because the core problem isn't lack of pay -- it's lack of time. > That's one which is really hard to solve, no matter what the > conditions of an open-source project. Hmm, perhaps you and others should train people instead? Offer to pay a student to learn FreeBSD, and to train her / him as developer. I don't know if it is at all possible to fund something like that within the econimcs of a company such as yours, but if it worked, it would bring more developers on board. Just an idea. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 16:11:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2987106567E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:11:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 83E278FC1B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:11:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 32563 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 16:00:21 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-3.5/5.0):. Processed in 6.04039 secs); 05 Jun 2008 16:00:21 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.5 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-3.5/5.0):. Processed in 6.04039 secs Process 32517) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 16:00:15 -0000 Message-ID: <48481015.4030806@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:11:01 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:11:17 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Chris Marlatt wrote: >>>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>> Chris Marlatt wrote: >>>>>> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>>>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>>>>>>> On Jun 4, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>>>>>>>> Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by >>>>>>>>> the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 >>>>>>>>> release itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 >>>>>>>> bugs outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >>>>>>> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for >>>>>>> yourself >>>>>>> instead of assuming that it will fail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kris >>>>>> In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who >>>>>> believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those >>>>>> who >>>>>> don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules >>>>>> debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific >>>>>> release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other >>>>>> projects have done this will relative success and considering the >>>>>> "only" work required for this release would be security patches the >>>>>> work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could >>>>>> free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their >>>>>> work on >>>>>> the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems >>>>>> like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a >>>>>> dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. >>>>> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually >>>>> read the >>>>> support announcements? They are public ;) >>>>> >>>>> Kris >>>> >>>> I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such >>>> a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been >>>> 24 months with others being only 12. >>> >>> Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". >>> Don't like it? Do something about it. >>> >>> Kris >> >> You seem awful hostile - do you really think that's the best way to >> represent the project you're involved with? Initially belittle someone >> for offering their opinion and then when they reply telling them to do >> it themselves or shut up? Try and have an open mind about these things. >> >> The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both >> interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support >> for a longer period of time. Keep all other releases to 12 month >> support and continue doing what I believe is some fairly incredible >> work. I really don't see the downside to it. If anything it should >> reduce the work load for the team and let them focus on making >> considerable progress. Especially considering Ken Smith's recent post >> regarding future release schedules. >> >> IMHO, the attitude and opinion you have right now accomplishes nothing >> other than alienating your supporters. > > There has been nothing of value offered in this thread, and it's only > served to piss off a number of developers who already put huge amounts > of volunteer time into supporting FreeBSD, and who take pride in the > quality of their work. Asking the volunteers to > I don't think anyone has really said their quality is in question. At least not myself. The OP stated there are unclosed bugs that be believes are preventing him from using 6.3 and called into question the decision of EoL'ing 6.2. Granted he should have tested it anyways vs. waiting until hell freezes over but at this time thats somewhat beside the point. Just because someone questions a decision or notes there are unclosed bugs doesn't mean they appreciate the work the team as a whole is doing any less. > a) fix unspecified problems that the submitter will not name in detail > but which are OMG SHOWSTOPPER YOU MUST FIX > Again I completely agree that the OP should have provided the PRs. If for nothing else to ensure that you're talking about exactly the same issue and not anything similar. How about just saving you from having to look them up? > b) donate even more unpaid time to supporting branches because it seems > like a good "compromise" (!) This may or may not be the case. Like I said if it's a horrible idea sorry for wasting your time. But it seems fairly logical to me as a good solution to the problem and should net the team more time for things that really count. > > shows a complete failure of understanding and frankly beggars belief. > > Such people are not acting as supporters of the project, however > well-intentioned they may believe themselves to be. > I respectfully disagree. > Kris Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 16:14:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6026106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.111]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84068FC1E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:14:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,596,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1242995" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 11:14:20 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FEB123DE3 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:14:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:14:20 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:14:21 -0000 --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:23:55 -0400 John Baldwin wrote: > > FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 patches for > known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for 6.2 that > never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also have many > machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less issues with bge0 > devices than 6.2. > I'm glad to hear that. I have a server that uses bce, and it was completely non-functional until I hunted down some beta code that made it usable. I'd like to upgrade, but this is a critical server with no redundancy (and it's a hobby site with no money to pay for expensive support), and I'm not about to upgrade unless I know for certain the problems won't reoccur, because I have to upgrade remotely and pay money if the system goes down. The problems with that driver were bad enough when the server was being configured in my study. (The system would lock up, and only a hard reboot would restore networking.) It would be hell trying to troubleshoot problems if I had to drive the 45 miles to the hosting site and spend a night there trying to get the server back up, then go to work the next day. # uname -a FreeBSD www.stovebolt.com 6.1-RELEASE-p10 FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE-p10 #2: Mon Oct 16 15:38:02 CDT 2006 root@www.stovebolt.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 # grep bce /var/run/dmesg.boot bce0: mem 0xf4000000-0xf5ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci9 bce0: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz miibus0: on bce0 bce0: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ad bce1: mem 0xf8000000-0xf9ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci5 bce1: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz miibus1: on bce1 bce1: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ab # grep bce0 /var/log/messages May 2 09:10:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN May 2 09:10:39 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP May 25 07:49:49 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN May 25 07:50:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP May 26 21:28:36 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN May 26 21:28:40 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP May 27 13:13:21 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN May 27 13:13:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP It's been like that since the server was installed. So, if I upgrade to 6.3 or 7.0, am I still going to experience these problems? Is the server going to stop working entirely? How can I know that for sure before starting an upgrade? Because, I have a 7.0 STABLE workstation (I'm sending this email from it) with a serious problem with umass, and no fix seems to be forthcoming. On a workstation, I can work around problems. On a critical server, not so much. Look, I know this is open source, all volunteer (hell, I'm a port maintainer myself) and guys' time is extremely valuable (whose isn't?), but it seems to me there needs to be better communication between the folks who know the code and those who only run boxes. You might be able to read diffs and say, "Aha, they've fixed the problem", but I can't. I don't know, if I upgrade to 6.3, if the server will stop passing packets or not. And I can't take the chance that it will. Saying put up or shut up isn't going to win many friends. I can't use the server for testing. It's a website with 5 to 7 million hits per month. MInd you, I haven't complained about this and I'm not complaining now. I'm simply saying it would be more productive if folks *listened* to what people say about a particular problem and gave it some thought before firing salvos at the "complainers" and demanding that they contribute to solving the problem somehow. -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 16:28:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A0F1065678 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-stable@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48B68FC29 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:28:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-stable@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1K4IKJ-0003iM-Nv for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:28:35 +0000 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:28:35 +0000 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:28:35 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:28:24 +0200 Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig4113E53FE3D235335C111B6D" X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) In-Reply-To: <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Sender: news Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:28:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig4113E53FE3D235335C111B6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Marlatt wrote: > The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both > interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support fo= r > a longer period of time. Keep all other releases to 12 month support an= d > continue doing what I believe is some fairly incredible work. I really > don't see the downside to it. If anything it should reduce the work loa= d > for the team and let them focus on making considerable progress. > Especially considering Ken Smith's recent post regarding future release= > schedules. This is already being done: 6.1 was a "long term support" release. The topic comes about pretty often. I think it's because people are still impressed / spoiled by 4.x and wish they had a stable operating system that's supported for 6+ years (like 4.x had been). I even heard commercial / embedded companies saying they would use FreeBSD if only they had a 5+ years run off a branch (which is comparable to what Debian has, if you allow 3.0 and 3.1 to be "similar enough"). But all is not so bad: consider for example 7.x: 7.0 was released 2008/02, and from Ken's schedule the last release, 7.4 will be released 2009/12, with probable support for maybe 1-2 more years which makes the whole 7.x generation of the OS officialy supported for 3, maybe 4 years, which is a lot in fast technology-changing world. I know long term support is not doable with the resources the project currently has, but I've been toying with the idea that maybe there's an opportunity for commercial development here - a company that would backport security fixes and important driver fixes for ($$$ * (N-YEAR_OF_LAST_RELEASE)) more years or something. --------------enig4113E53FE3D235335C111B6D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFISBQoldnAQVacBcgRAmiqAKD79x2X18iqODayryC/6Y6JqD9gqACgzL/w mSzEypEMLTW2WHAA9FN/hNE= =FKeZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig4113E53FE3D235335C111B6D-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 16:34:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE2C1065676; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:34:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAA08FC16; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:34:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from [128.205.32.76] (bauer.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m55GY9DG046015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:34:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu) From: Ken Smith To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-WQINUL2LqfCWltd08x6i" Organization: U. Buffalo CSE Department Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:34:09 -0400 Message-Id: <1212683649.90048.43.camel@bauer.cse.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 Cc: Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:34:10 -0000 --=-WQINUL2LqfCWltd08x6i Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:01 +0200, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> Chris Marlatt wrote: > >>> In an effort to potentially find a compromise between those who > >>> believe FreeBSD is EoL'ing previous releases too quickly and those wh= o > >>> don't. Have those in a position to set FreeBSD release schedules > >>> debated the option of setting a long term support release, a specific > >>> release picked by the team to be support for,.. 4 or 5 years? Other > >>> projects have done this will relative success and considering the > >>> "only" work required for this release would be security patches the > >>> work load should be minimized. Hopefully something like this could > >>> free up more time for the FreeBSD developers to continue their work o= n > >>> the newer release(s) while still answering the requests of what seems > >>> like quite a few of the legacy FreeBSD users. Thoughts? > >>> > >>> If this has already been discussed on-list I apologize for beating a > >>> dead horse but I can't recall it bring brought up before. > >> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read t= he > >> support announcements? They are public ;) > >> > >> Kris > >=20 > > I do actually - and when was the last release that was support for such > > a duration of time,.. 4.11? As of recent the longest I've seen has been > > 24 months with others being only 12. >=20 > Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". Don't=20 > like it? Do something about it. >=20 The 4.11 support was an anomoly, to a large degree because you needed to be either "Really Brave" or "Clinically Insane" to use 5.x. :-) It's unfortunate that people seem to be experiencing regressions with 6.3, we do try quite hard to avoid that. And our support model is geared up around that, it's typically the last release for a given development branch that receives the extended support under the assumption there are no issues with upgrading in-branch. As for re-defining extended support to mean 4 or 5 years instead of just two it's not clear us doing that (except for anomolies like 4.11) is really in your best interests. :-) Even if the base system's support were to be extended to that sort of timeframe it's the *applications* you folks rely on the most. The ports folks do their best to keep their stuff usable for the Project-defined life cycle of the releases which gets harder the older a given "target" gets as well as needing to cater to "too many" different branches simultaneously. Keeping the ports builds going for longer than two years after the last release of a given branch just isn't feasible/reasonable. And if the stuff you layer on top of the operating system isn't upgradable giving you the warm fuzzy feeling you're OK because the base OS still receives patches isn't necessarily a good thing. Of course there will be people who feel differently but we need to focus efforts on the average folks. --=20 Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | --=-WQINUL2LqfCWltd08x6i Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBISBWB/G14VSmup/YRAppPAJ4ggbwlgJtoXo1AzqmBHcTXN8dqKgCfcAVJ 5rQAMopBBk8Xi2qDSNL29oA= =toHr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-WQINUL2LqfCWltd08x6i-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 16:46:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECCF106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:46:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E7698FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:46:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 41731 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 16:35:46 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.7/5.0):. Processed in 1.977682 secs); 05 Jun 2008 16:35:46 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.7 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-2.7/5.0):. Processed in 1.977682 secs Process 41707) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 16:35:44 -0000 Message-ID: <48481867.3010809@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:46:31 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:46:43 -0000 Ivan Voras wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: > >> The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both >> interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support for >> a longer period of time. Keep all other releases to 12 month support and >> continue doing what I believe is some fairly incredible work. I really >> don't see the downside to it. If anything it should reduce the work load >> for the team and let them focus on making considerable progress. >> Especially considering Ken Smith's recent post regarding future release >> schedules. > > This is already being done: 6.1 was a "long term support" release. > > The topic comes about pretty often. I think it's because people are > still impressed / spoiled by 4.x and wish they had a stable operating > system that's supported for 6+ years (like 4.x had been). I even heard Spoiled is probably a good word for it. But you have to admit it's extremely useful to the user base to have such support. This was quite evident by the apposition to discontinue the 4.x branch. > commercial / embedded companies saying they would use FreeBSD if only > they had a 5+ years run off a branch (which is comparable to what Debian > has, if you allow 3.0 and 3.1 to be "similar enough"). > > But all is not so bad: consider for example 7.x: 7.0 was released > 2008/02, and from Ken's schedule the last release, 7.4 will be released > 2009/12, with probable support for maybe 1-2 more years which makes the > whole 7.x generation of the OS officialy supported for 3, maybe 4 years, > which is a lot in fast technology-changing world. I think you're missing the point. Whereas it is indeed helpful to have the major release supported for that duration of time. The concern was over the minor release support. For instance if 7.0 is only supported for 12 months it doesn't really matter if 7.x is support for 48. You still need to upgrade and deal with any potential problems 7.1 or 7.2 induces if you wish to continue having "vendor supplied" security fixes. However using the 7.x tree as an example is problem not the best. 7.x, at least from what I've perceived, is a fairly active development branch. The 6.2 to 6.3 change is somewhat a better example but still not perfect. > > I know long term support is not doable with the resources the project > currently has, but I've been toying with the idea that maybe there's an > opportunity for commercial development here - a company that would > backport security fixes and important driver fixes for ($$$ * > (N-YEAR_OF_LAST_RELEASE)) more years or something. > > Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 16:53:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C228E1065673 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:53:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from ik-out-1112.google.com (ik-out-1112.google.com [66.249.90.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42C28FC0A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by ik-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id c30so417304ika.3 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:53:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc :in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version :x-mailer; bh=5dIRwiPPxxsiQx+E2HGe3YhSR819ivLx3VLtN+O5xIY=; b=jT7LSBdXotE6J0l+renslvtHME7QB74c9XGfKFJdThz4U+qMMi3FyB1GVcLQyfgarO fxEmeGnBFX2lh4wMG7c+/WDdj04rIHgQ1O+161JAvGL912/svH1WBA04HzjeIALeD5gT TV5h3BFdRExmpbGDjEhpI/9fErTMZkCirkd0E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date :message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=rglmfe72OBgcVCMrTNCJj1zf8M6Uai4DbVh/UM5UQxqTuAnTE2jM7t8y728NinPyVX 0cansyq/s10pR49SJrUQBvi0ZueNXbwtQnRrVklqAKZ31dOwAZ5Ya01SFgwVnfyWfEeL wQfZ//Z8Wm9jlqHsjZZ4L0LgL5XgZ456vfeUQ= Received: by 10.210.13.17 with SMTP id 17mr1184293ebm.94.1212684785575; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.80]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g11sm5818935gve.8.2008.06.05.09.53.03 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Evans To: Paul Schmehl In-Reply-To: References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-dM+FnVMwpwNNYC4l6OtY" Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:53:01 +0100 Message-Id: <1212684781.10665.81.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:53:08 -0000 --=-dM+FnVMwpwNNYC4l6OtY Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 11:14 -0500, Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:23:55 -0400 John Baldwin =20 > wrote: > > > > FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 patch= es for > > known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for 6.2 t= hat > > never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also hav= e many > > machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less issues with = bge0 > > devices than 6.2. > > >=20 > I'm glad to hear that. I have a server that uses bce, and it was complet= ely=20 > non-functional until I hunted down some beta code that made it usable. I= 'd=20 > like to upgrade, but this is a critical server with no redundancy (and it= 's a=20 > hobby site with no money to pay for expensive support), and I'm not about= to=20 > upgrade unless I know for certain the problems won't reoccur, because I h= ave to=20 > upgrade remotely and pay money if the system goes down. >=20 > The problems with that driver were bad enough when the server was being=20 > configured in my study. (The system would lock up, and only a hard reboo= t=20 > would restore networking.) It would be hell trying to troubleshoot probl= ems if=20 > I had to drive the 45 miles to the hosting site and spend a night there t= rying=20 > to get the server back up, then go to work the next day. >=20 > # uname -a > FreeBSD www.stovebolt.com 6.1-RELEASE-p10 FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE-p10 #2: Mon= Oct=20 > 16 15:38:02 CDT 2006 root@www.stovebolt.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENE= RIC=20 > i386 >=20 > # grep bce /var/run/dmesg.boot > bce0: mem=20 > 0xf4000000-0xf5ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci9 > bce0: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz > miibus0: on bce0 > bce0: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ad > bce1: mem=20 > 0xf8000000-0xf9ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci5 > bce1: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz > miibus1: on bce1 > bce1: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ab >=20 > # grep bce0 /var/log/messages > May 2 09:10:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 2 09:10:39 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 25 07:49:49 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 25 07:50:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 26 21:28:36 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 26 21:28:40 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 27 13:13:21 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 27 13:13:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP >=20 > It's been like that since the server was installed. >=20 > So, if I upgrade to 6.3 or 7.0, am I still going to experience these prob= lems?=20 > Is the server going to stop working entirely? How can I know that for su= re=20 > before starting an upgrade? >=20 > Because, I have a 7.0 STABLE workstation (I'm sending this email from it)= with=20 > a serious problem with umass, and no fix seems to be forthcoming. On a=20 > workstation, I can work around problems. On a critical server, not so mu= ch. >=20 > Look, I know this is open source, all volunteer (hell, I'm a port maintai= ner=20 > myself) and guys' time is extremely valuable (whose isn't?), but it seems= to me=20 > there needs to be better communication between the folks who know the cod= e and=20 > those who only run boxes. You might be able to read diffs and say, "Aha,= =20 > they've fixed the problem", but I can't. I don't know, if I upgrade to 6= .3, if=20 > the server will stop passing packets or not. And I can't take the chance= that=20 > it will. >=20 > Saying put up or shut up isn't going to win many friends. I can't use th= e=20 > server for testing. It's a website with 5 to 7 million hits per month. >=20 > MInd you, I haven't complained about this and I'm not complaining now. I= 'm=20 > simply saying it would be more productive if folks *listened* to what peo= ple=20 > say about a particular problem and gave it some thought before firing sal= vos at=20 > the "complainers" and demanding that they contribute to solving the probl= em=20 > somehow. >=20 > --=20 > Paul Schmehl I think that, especially with open source products, there is a large emphasis on testing in your own environments, and choosing the 'correct' version of a particular software package is important. For example, at $JOB, we had a lot of servers running 6.1 as it was an extended lifetime release, so no point jumping to 6.2, instead we waited for 6.3 to pass our integration testing. We buy usually the same chassis for all our servers, and test extensively before deploying to a new chassis/OS/anything. This is the definition of change management, which is expensive, takes lots of time and planning, and doesn't guarantee zaroo bugs - just a high likelihood of not hitting them. It also isn't smooth, when we tested 6.1, we found a multitude of bugs in bce(4), which we worked with net@ and David Christensen of Broadcom to get fixed (they work lovely now :). If you don't want to do this sort of work, then yes, things may fail unexpectedly (sort of unexpectedly, I would consider not doing any testing and then having things fail as a logical consequence..). It is usually up to $BOSS to decide if you want to invest the resources (time, people and money) locally to do change management planning, or outsource your support to a 3rd party, or ignore the problem (this is a polite way of saying 'put up or shut up', in my mind.)=20 If you just have <5 servers, the expense of getting duplicates for testing, change management and release management may be too much to handle. If you've got >100 servers, you really have no excuses not to do CM; in my mind, not doing it is reckless. This isn't a cost of OSS, we also do this for windows updates and service packs etc. Tom --=-dM+FnVMwpwNNYC4l6OtY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkhIGeoACgkQlcRvFfyds/cO2wCffg/GJjNr8wdAxlASYzPqK5mI gQAAoK76XdWo/mp7d4IhdKV/jeM+2Hjl =x32C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-dM+FnVMwpwNNYC4l6OtY-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:01:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B771065678 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942A48FC1D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 28472 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 17:01:47 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 17:01:47 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <48481BF4.4030209@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:01:40 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080525) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Torfinn Ingolfsen References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <20080605175921.5e994658.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> In-Reply-To: <20080605175921.5e994658.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: FreeBSD Stable List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:01:49 -0000 Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:51:05 -0700 > Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > >> Offering monetary compensation is not a solution, and I believe that's >> because the core problem isn't lack of pay -- it's lack of time. >> That's one which is really hard to solve, no matter what the >> conditions of an open-source project. > > Hmm, perhaps you and others should train people instead? > Offer to pay a student to learn FreeBSD, and to train her / him as > developer. http://www.freebsd.org/projects/summerofcode-2008.html -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:10:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F021065672 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:10:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pieter@degoeje.nl) Received: from mx.utwente.nl (unknown [IPv6:2001:610:1908:1000:204:23ff:feba:6042]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4C18FC24 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:10:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pieter@degoeje.nl) Received: from lux.student.utwente.nl (lux.student.utwente.nl [130.89.170.81]) by mx.utwente.nl (8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id m55HAKGI011963; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:10:21 +0200 From: Pieter de Goeje To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:10:19 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806051910.20319.pieter@degoeje.nl> X-UTwente-MailScanner-Information: Scanned by MailScanner. Contact servicedesk@icts.utwente.nl for more information. X-UTwente-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-UTwente-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-UTwente-MailScanner-From: pieter@degoeje.nl X-Spam-Status: No Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:10:43 -0000 On Thursday 05 June 2008, Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:23:55 -0400 John Baldwin > > wrote: > > FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 patches > > for known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for 6.2 > > that never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also > > have many machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less > > issues with bge0 devices than 6.2. > > I'm glad to hear that. I have a server that uses bce, and it was > completely non-functional until I hunted down some beta code that made it > usable. I'd like to upgrade, but this is a critical server with no > redundancy (and it's a hobby site with no money to pay for expensive > support), and I'm not about to upgrade unless I know for certain the > problems won't reoccur, because I have to upgrade remotely and pay money if > the system goes down. > > The problems with that driver were bad enough when the server was being > configured in my study. (The system would lock up, and only a hard reboot > would restore networking.) It would be hell trying to troubleshoot > problems if I had to drive the 45 miles to the hosting site and spend a > night there trying to get the server back up, then go to work the next day. > > # uname -a > FreeBSD www.stovebolt.com 6.1-RELEASE-p10 FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE-p10 #2: Mon > Oct 16 15:38:02 CDT 2006 > root@www.stovebolt.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 > > # grep bce /var/run/dmesg.boot > bce0: mem > 0xf4000000-0xf5ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci9 > bce0: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz > miibus0: on bce0 > bce0: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ad > bce1: mem > 0xf8000000-0xf9ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci5 > bce1: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz > miibus1: on bce1 > bce1: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ab > > # grep bce0 /var/log/messages > May 2 09:10:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 2 09:10:39 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 25 07:49:49 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 25 07:50:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 26 21:28:36 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 26 21:28:40 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 27 13:13:21 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 27 13:13:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > > It's been like that since the server was installed. > > So, if I upgrade to 6.3 or 7.0, am I still going to experience these > problems? Is the server going to stop working entirely? How can I know > that for sure before starting an upgrade? > [...] There's a really easy way to test this. Build & install a new kernel, but keep the old kernel around (by default it's in /boot/kernel.old). If the problem is gone, do the upgrade as usual. If it's still there, you know upgrading won't fix it and you don't waste time; simply rename kernel.old to kernel. This even works with 7.0 provided that you leave COMPAT_FREEBSD6 in the kernel configuration file. -- Pieter de Goeje From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:27:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B156D1065677 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599A98FC23 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 12931 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 17:27:12 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 17:27:12 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:27:10 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080525) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Marlatt References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Adrian Chadd , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:27:14 -0000 Chris Marlatt wrote: > Adrian Chadd wrote: >> The project is doing what it can with what people are >> contributing. If > > What if it can accomplish the same or more by simply reorganizing > what it's already doing? I think that the problem here is that you have no idea how absurd you sound to the people who are actually doing the work. Taking what you said at face value for a minute, a polite response would be something along the lines of, "At this point in the project's history we've already given lengthy and careful consideration to the resources we have available, and how best to allocate them. FreeBSD is a volunteer project, and with few exceptions those who put work into it are doing it 'for fun,' and choose where they want to apply their efforts. Suggestions are often made about where effort can be best applied, some private, some public. But in the end it's the individual developer who chooses what to work on, and the project leadership tries to keep things moving smoothly with the resources available." Now let me approach this from another angle, which is how what you said above can easily sound to us. "Hey you volunteers! It's great that you're working on FreeBSD and giving it to me for free and all, but what I really want you to do is this, so get to it will you?" I'm sure you can imagine the response to that. And frankly, it doesn't even matter which way you _meant_ it. And sure, you have the right to voice your opinion, all FreeBSD users do. You also need to be prepared to take "no" for an answer. >> you'd like a distribution supported for longer then offer to help >> maintain it. You may be surprised how helpful people get when >> you offer to help. :0 > > Again IMHO the only message coming across here is either do it > yourself or keep your mouth shut. That's not _exactly_ what we're saying, but it's pretty close. This is open source after all. "If you can't find what you're looking for, build it, or look elsewhere" would be a better way to say it. > The other side of the coin here is - what's to say the FreeBSD > project requires what I can offer? Without trying to sound rude, I'm pretty sure the only person that's going to matter to is you. > Granted it's been sometime since I've browsed the entire > FreeBSD.org site but last I checked there wasn't an area devoted to > the needs of the project. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=&severity=&priority=&class=&state=&sort=none&text=&responsible=&multitext=&originator=&release= > Furthermore, just because someone isn't providing assistance > doesn't mean that their concerns should go unheard. This isn't the '80's, and we aren't in grade school. See above on taking "no" for an answer. > It's quite possible what was proposed is an awful idea and if it is > so be it. But it would appear as though it wasn't even considered. On the contrary. This, and lots of other ideas have been given very careful consideration and have been rejected due to lack of resources. There, feel better? Seriously folks, it's not as if we don't _want_ to be able to provide better, longer, faster, $whatever support. We're just trying to be realistic about what we can reasonably do with what we have available. hth, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:33:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060791065679 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:33:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (core6.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897718FC2B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:33:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=multiplay.co.uk; s=Multiplay; t=1212687078; x=1213291878; q=dns/txt; h=Received: Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=KrY63JK9IkJ1i2OfLE+Cf zDdbltLuJqo3YkEugxV4kY=; b=AY4NS1zWCSqqeYdYm8NGvzaUeJlk435dJ42lj 1N4CJsOhb4BNNkXJbWEvLNlWVgBs36Pw1Opy4rRGFbBMcce/aeOLOJPgHBRXaaoY U4xI5gBNNp7wU82KEmQ0MbzB/ps+XKY4lnbmnImIo37DC1r5BN0BTGCR7yPVmdaS /A070I= X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.7 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from r2d2 by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50005716396.msg for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:31:17 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: Killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDRemoteIP: 212.135.219.182 X-Return-Path: prvs=1042f5e7dd=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Paul Schmehl" , References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net><20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:31:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:31:17 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:31:18 +0100 Cc: Jo Rhett , Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:33:31 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Schmehl" > That is a blatant lie. He has stated repeatedly that there are *known* bugs, > complete with bug reports, that are not resolved and that affect the hardware > he uses. He has also stated that there is no need for him to provide further > evidence of an already documented bug, yet he is willing to provide equipment > with 6.3 RELEASE installed if any developer needs a platform to test and > troubleshoot the bugs. Unforunately to now he has totally avoided telling anyone what said BUG's, PR's etc are, even when asked on several occasions. Instead he continues down the line of "I dont have time or resources to test your fixes so just make it work ffs!" just not in so many words. I'm just a user here, but if something is a show stopper for us I work with anyone who is able to help us resolve the issue. This has proved very successful, in particular one case springs to mind where we worked with HighPoint support to fix a serious corruption issue with 1820a under FreeBSD. I have no sympathy for anyone who's going to moan about a previous release being desupported that isn't willing to put the effort in to make the issues they are seeing get fixed. Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:38:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEE6106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:38:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1EE88FC18 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:38:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 5067 invoked by uid 399); 5 Jun 2008 17:38:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 5 Jun 2008 17:38:42 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4848249E.2050704@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:38:38 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080525) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net><20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable , Edwin Groothuis , Steven Hartland Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:38:43 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: >> I wouldn't be surprised if these are not new bugs, just something >> that others have noticed later than 6.2 and I'd suggest you actually >> try 6.3 to see if they are in fact an issue for you. > > I don't have the resources to load up the systems enough to find these > problems sitting on my desk. And I can't risk production resources for > problems known and reported on the *EXACT* same hardware. Ok, then don't. Just stop whining about it. The 6.2 EOL has been announced from day 1 (and extended once already). If you haven't made adequate preparations, that's not our fault. Furthermore, if your production environment is as overwhelmingly important as you make it out to be, you ought to have provisions for redundancy and failover already. If you don't have that, and don't have a testbed, that's not our fault either. Bruce put it in much more polite terms than I have patience for atm. Open source software isn't "free," and if you're not interested in holding up your end of the bargain, explore other alternatives. > "oh but it won't happen to me" isn't a useful methodology in a > production environment. > > I mean, seriously, I know the majority of you are happy rebooting your > systems 5x daily to run the latest. I'll do that with my home system, > no problem. But I can't do this in a production environment. Ok, then don't. But you probably ought not to insult the professionalism of the people that you're going to be asking for help again at some point. When you do come back, your first message should contain a list of PRs that you're concerned about, and confirmation (per jhb's message) that you have the _exact_ hardware that is referred to in them. If you can't provide that, don't bother. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:40:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DF2106566C; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:40:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A358FC23; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:40:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id EE2CC1A4D83; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:40:10 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20080605174010.GH48790@elvis.mu.org> References: <20080603070840.GH1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <200806041044.01712.jhb@freebsd.org> <20080605061931.GF48790@elvis.mu.org> <200806051051.05495.jhb@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200806051051.05495.jhb@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interrupt storm with shared interrupt on digi(4) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:40:11 -0000 * John Baldwin [080605 07:58] wrote: > On Thursday 05 June 2008 02:19:31 am Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * John Baldwin [080604 11:12] wrote: > > > On Tuesday 03 June 2008 03:04:18 pm Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > > BTW, your MUA's list-reply configuration don't recognize that > > > > freebsd-stable@ and stable@ are aliases. > > > > > > Yes, kmail is broken and the authors refuse to fix it. It happens on reply to > > > a foo@ e-mail (it changes the 'To' to 'freebsd-foo@' because of the List-Id > > > header and leaves foo@ in the 'CC' field). Note that there isn't anything in > > > the List headers that says that foo@ is an alias for freebsd-foo@. I just > > > wish I could turn off the List-Id crap and use plain old reply-to-all, but > > > that is where the kmail developers disagree. > > > > wtf.....why not just have a checkbox to toggle the behavior? > > That was my request (and I found at least 2 other open bugs for the same issue > when I looked again yesterday). The developers reply was "an option is not an > option". Did you try sending him email with forged headers a few times with List-Id set to something embarassing? What's his email? I'll do it. -Alfred From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:49:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C504E106564A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@ipt.ru) Received: from mail.ipt.ru (mail.ipt.ru [194.62.233.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3698FC15 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsam@ipt.ru) Received: from sp34.ipt.ru ([194.62.233.107] helo=bs1.sp34.ru) by mail.ipt.ru with esmtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4Jae-0004UM-3P for stable@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:49:32 +0400 Received: from bsam by bs1.sp34.ru with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4Jas-0000NX-SY for stable@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:49:46 +0400 To: stable@FreeBSD.org References: <72197513@bs1.sp34.ru> From: Boris Samorodov Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:49:46 +0400 In-Reply-To: <72197513@bs1.sp34.ru> (Boris Samorodov's message of "Wed\, 28 May 2008 02\:15\:18 +0400") Message-ID: <82792629@bs1.sp34.ru> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: [solved] Re: 7-STABLE: bridge and em X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:49:33 -0000 Hi List! Well, it took me a while to discover the case... Provider attached my ethernet line to a switch and set up port security to restrict to three MAC addresses which were already used by two computers and a network printer. As soon as provider deletted those restrictions all went well. Thanks for all who helped me. On Wed, 28 May 2008 02:15:18 +0400 Boris Samorodov wrote: > When em0 has an inet address while bridge0 doesn't, it seems to be OK: > ----- > bs1% uname -a > FreeBSD bs1.sp34.ru 7.0-STABLE FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #0: Sun May 25 20:15:26 MSD 2008 root@bs1.sp34.ru:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/BSM i386 > bs1% ifconfig em0; ifconfig tap0; ifconfig bridge0 > em0: flags=8943 metric 0 mtu 1500 > options=98 > ether 00:0c:f1:6c:37:4c > inet 192.168.16.30 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.16.255 > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX ) > status: active > tap0: flags=8943 metric 0 mtu 1500 > ether 00:bd:3e:24:00:00 > bridge0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 > ether ea:8b:1f:65:2a:5c > id 00:00:00:00:00:00 priority 32768 hellotime 2 fwddelay 15 > maxage 20 holdcnt 6 proto rstp maxaddr 100 timeout 1200 > root id 00:00:00:00:00:00 priority 32768 ifcost 0 port 0 > member: tap0 flags=143 > ifmaxaddr 0 port 7 priority 128 path cost 2000000 > member: em0 flags=143 > ifmaxaddr 0 port 1 priority 128 path cost 2000000 > bs1% netstat -rn > Routing tables > Internet: > Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire > default 192.168.16.254 UGS 0 357 em0 > 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 3934 lo0 > 192.168.16.0/24 link#1 UC 0 0 em0 > 192.168.16.1 00:07:e9:80:33:bc UHLW 1 16 em0 951 > 192.168.16.254 00:07:e9:80:33:bc UHLW 2 0 em0 1002 > Internet6: > Destination Gateway Flags Netif Expire > ::1 ::1 UHL lo0 > fe80::%lo0/64 fe80::1%lo0 U lo0 > fe80::1%lo0 link#5 UHL lo0 > ff01:5::/32 fe80::1%lo0 UC lo0 > ff02::%lo0/32 fe80::1%lo0 UC lo0 > bs1% ping -c 3 192.168.16.254 > PING 192.168.16.254 (192.168.16.254): 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from 192.168.16.254: icmp_seq=0 ttl=64 time=0.316 ms > 64 bytes from 192.168.16.254: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.263 ms > 64 bytes from 192.168.16.254: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=0.266 ms > --- 192.168.16.254 ping statistics --- > 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0.0% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.263/0.282/0.316/0.024 ms > ----- > But if I move ip address from em0 to bridge0: > ----- > bs1% sudo ifconfig em0 inet 192.168.16.30 netmask 0xffffff00 delete > bs1% sudo ifconfig bridge0 inet 192.168.16.30 netmask 0xffffff00 > bs1% sudo route add default 192.168.16.254 > add net default: gateway 192.168.16.254 > bs1% ifconfig em0; ifconfig tap0; ifconfig bridge0 > em0: flags=8943 metric 0 mtu 1500 > options=98 > ether 00:0c:f1:6c:37:4c > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX ) > status: active > tap0: flags=8943 metric 0 mtu 1500 > ether 00:bd:3e:24:00:00 > bridge0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 > ether ea:8b:1f:65:2a:5c > inet 192.168.16.30 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.16.255 > id 00:00:00:00:00:00 priority 32768 hellotime 2 fwddelay 15 > maxage 20 holdcnt 6 proto rstp maxaddr 100 timeout 1200 > root id 00:00:00:00:00:00 priority 32768 ifcost 0 port 0 > member: tap0 flags=143 > ifmaxaddr 0 port 7 priority 128 path cost 2000000 > member: em0 flags=143 > ifmaxaddr 0 port 1 priority 128 path cost 2000000 > bs1% netstat -rn > Routing tables > Internet: > Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire > default 192.168.16.254 UGS 0 0 bridge > 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 3934 lo0 > 192.168.16.0/24 link#6 UC 0 0 bridge > 192.168.16.254 link#6 UHLW 2 0 bridge > Internet6: > Destination Gateway Flags Netif Expire > ::1 ::1 UHL lo0 > fe80::%lo0/64 fe80::1%lo0 U lo0 > fe80::1%lo0 link#5 UHL lo0 > ff01:5::/32 fe80::1%lo0 UC lo0 > ff02::%lo0/32 fe80::1%lo0 UC lo0 > bs1% ping -c 3 192.168.16.254 > PING 192.168.16.254 (192.168.16.254): 56 data bytes > --- 192.168.16.254 ping statistics --- > 3 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100.0% packet loss > ----- > Did I miss something? Thanks! WBR -- Boris Samorodov (bsam) Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone & Internet SP FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 17:56:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C1C1065670 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:56:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@googlemail.com) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E9B8FC1D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:56:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@googlemail.com) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 31so106285yxl.13 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:56:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to :to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=3uxFe9TqZCeh0VjJujJq9XdlRFsIkTdz0gf0npjXPWs=; b=Ef1wC56iwk7uQ9AFLDhCfFFFV0yZ0Vdcr3IWPEIVaPmMB/JZxYBulIxU18JFsMsHZt eFVwV9s+xjc6T+mJvwveb/O3mKMptVqtVSUyBIVnzwnExDwfeU6cAkwo57SjPBiZbb+m xpgwB51ZYGQxEfzwR9U2kD+YF9c6zMKe54uxs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=FSaWt4Z+kjC0Yxxjmd6AQkX/GfONrUcF4GFNpKXwi8GY5TQLXytdL7MQrJhI3r1f9B Si1p1BExvNpMsrrVqn+YBa5HzXYfRB1oSt2dIVifyFh1U/zW/uXc1L72uKDA5w2ISK1h J5w37KmDNTOFQrSFYrXVYEqCon42eq/oukgfI= Received: by 10.151.42.9 with SMTP id u9mr2147230ybj.83.1212687000833; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.53.16 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:30:00 +0100 From: "Chris Rees" To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: utisoft@gmail.com List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:56:25 -0000 On Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:23:55 -0400 John Baldwin > wrote: > I'm glad to hear that. I have a server that uses bce, and it was completely > non-functional until I hunted down some beta code that made it usable. I'd > like to upgrade, but this is a critical server with no redundancy (and it's a > hobby site with no money to pay for expensive support), and I'm not about to > upgrade unless I know for certain the problems won't reoccur, because I have to > upgrade remotely and pay money if the system goes down. > > The problems with that driver were bad enough when the server was being > configured in my study. (The system would lock up, and only a hard reboot > would restore networking.) It would be hell trying to troubleshoot problems if > I had to drive the 45 miles to the hosting site and spend a night there trying > to get the server back up, then go to work the next day. > > # uname -a > FreeBSD www.stovebolt.com 6.1-RELEASE-p10 FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE-p10 #2: Mon Oct > 16 15:38:02 CDT 2006 root@www.stovebolt.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC > i386 > > # grep bce /var/run/dmesg.boot > bce0: mem > 0xf4000000-0xf5ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci9 > bce0: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz > miibus0: on bce0 > bce0: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ad > bce1: mem > 0xf8000000-0xf9ffffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci5 > bce1: ASIC ID 0x57081010; Revision (B1); PCI-X 64-bit 133MHz > miibus1: on bce1 > bce1: Ethernet address: 00:13:72:fb:2a:ab > > # grep bce0 /var/log/messages > May 2 09:10:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 2 09:10:39 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 25 07:49:49 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 25 07:50:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 26 21:28:36 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 26 21:28:40 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > May 27 13:13:21 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to DOWN > May 27 13:13:31 www kernel: bce0: link state changed to UP > > It's been like that since the server was installed. > > So, if I upgrade to 6.3 or 7.0, am I still going to experience these problems? > Is the server going to stop working entirely? How can I know that for sure > before starting an upgrade? Damn, that's fascinating. I get that with nfe, on my xbox; amnesiac# uname -a FreeBSD amnesiac.bayofrum.net 7.0-RELEASE-p1 FreeBSD 7.0-RELEASE-p1 #9: Wed May 28 23:14:21 BST 2008 root@amnesiac.bayofrum.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/AMNESIAC i386 amnesiac# uptime 6:27PM up 7 days, 18:53, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.05, 0.06 amnesiac# tail /var/log/messages Jun 3 17:39:31 amnesiac kernel: pid 37682 (python), uid 80 inumber 871485 on /usr/spare: filesystem full Jun 4 17:07:24 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to DOWN Jun 4 17:07:34 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to UP Jun 4 17:07:40 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to DOWN Jun 4 17:07:54 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to UP Jun 4 18:39:50 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to DOWN Jun 4 18:40:01 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to UP Jun 4 18:40:07 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to DOWN Jun 4 18:40:21 amnesiac kernel: nfe0: link state changed to UP Jun 5 18:26:58 amnesiac sudo: chris : TTY=ttyp0 ; PWD=/usr/home/chris ; USER=root ; COMMAND=/usr/bin/su Hm, I swear that's getting more regular. Anyway, it hasn't lost permanantly yet, but I was just ignoring them (my Linux background :$). Should I be worried?? I'll provide any other details if anyone's interested. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:13:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 215B0106568E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: from core.rxsec.com (core.rxsec.com [64.132.46.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D29048FC0C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:13:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmarlatt@rxsec.com) Received: (qmail 69689 invoked by uid 2009); 5 Jun 2008 18:02:25 -0000 Received: from 10.1.0.239 by core.rxsec.com (envelope-from , uid 2008) with qmail-scanner-1.25-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.86.2/1102. spamassassin: 3.0.4. perlscan: 1.25-st-qms. Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-3.6/5.0):. Processed in 1.939403 secs); 05 Jun 2008 18:02:25 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.6 required=5.0 X-Antivirus-RXSEC-Mail-From: cmarlatt@rxsec.com via core.rxsec.com X-Antivirus-RXSEC: 1.25-st-qms (Clear:RC:0(10.1.0.239):SA:0(-3.6/5.0):. Processed in 1.939403 secs Process 69680) Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.0.239?) (cmarlatt@rxsec.com@10.1.0.239) by core.rxsec.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 18:02:23 -0000 Message-ID: <48482CB6.1000908@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:13:10 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt Organization: Receive Security User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Adrian Chadd , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:13:22 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: >> Adrian Chadd wrote: >>> The project is doing what it can with what people are contributing. If >> >> What if it can accomplish the same or more by simply reorganizing what >> it's already doing? > > I think that the problem here is that you have no idea how absurd you > sound to the people who are actually doing the work. Forgive me for not knowing how people I've never met or conversed with before would accept my proposal. I'll do better next time. > > Taking what you said at face value for a minute, a polite response > would be something along the lines of, "At this point in the project's > history we've already given lengthy and careful consideration to the > resources we have available, and how best to allocate them. FreeBSD is > a volunteer project, and with few exceptions those who put work into > it are doing it 'for fun,' and choose where they want to apply their > efforts. Suggestions are often made about where effort can be best > applied, some private, some public. But in the end it's the individual > developer who chooses what to work on, and the project leadership > tries to keep things moving smoothly with the resources available." > > Now let me approach this from another angle, which is how what you > said above can easily sound to us. "Hey you volunteers! It's great > that you're working on FreeBSD and giving it to me for free and all, > but what I really want you to do is this, so get to it will you?" I'm > sure you can imagine the response to that. > > And frankly, it doesn't even matter which way you _meant_ it. And > sure, you have the right to voice your opinion, all FreeBSD users do. > You also need to be prepared to take "no" for an answer. > So take a line from yourself. This isn't grade school. If you or members of your team can't take constructive criticism then you need to grow up. FreeBSD isn't a toy. Thousands of people rely on it for a variety of reasons. Which strangely enough is likely one of the primary reasons the team enjoys volunteering the time that they do. It means so much to so many people. However those same people are the ones who's concerns are being replied with "do it yourself or go away". I'm completely prepared to hear no - assuming it's a no with some sense behind it. As I've said more than once if it's a horrible idea fine. But it's one I haven't seen proposed before. >>> you'd like a distribution supported for longer then offer to help >>> maintain it. You may be surprised how helpful people get when you >>> offer to help. :0 >> >> Again IMHO the only message coming across here is either do it >> yourself or keep your mouth shut. > > That's not _exactly_ what we're saying, but it's pretty close. This is > open source after all. "If you can't find what you're looking for, > build it, or look elsewhere" would be a better way to say it. > >> The other side of the coin here is - what's to say the FreeBSD project >> requires what I can offer? > > Without trying to sound rude, I'm pretty sure the only person that's > going to matter to is you. I respectfully disagree. > >> Granted it's been sometime since I've browsed the entire FreeBSD.org >> site but last I checked there wasn't an area devoted to >> the needs of the project. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=&severity=&priority=&class=&state=&sort=none&text=&responsible=&multitext=&originator=&release= > If the only thing the FreeBSD project is in need of is time to work on PR fixes than what I can offer isn't of much help. Which is why the ^original^ comment was made. > >> Furthermore, just because someone isn't providing assistance doesn't >> mean that their concerns should go unheard. > > This isn't the '80's, and we aren't in grade school. See above on > taking "no" for an answer. What does this have to do with the 80's and again no is a perfectly acceptable answer if it doesn't come along with a STFU. > >> It's quite possible what was proposed is an awful idea and if it is >> so be it. But it would appear as though it wasn't even considered. > > On the contrary. This, and lots of other ideas have been given very > careful consideration and have been rejected due to lack of resources. > There, feel better? Yes because "Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the support announcements? They are public ;) " sounds exactly like careful consideration. > > Seriously folks, it's not as if we don't _want_ to be able to provide > better, longer, faster, $whatever support. We're just trying to be > realistic about what we can reasonably do with what we have available. > If you really want to then slow down the release schedule. I've seen a lot less "I _must_ have this feature" than "Whoa! why are we going to safe" threads. The project is creating a circumstance where offering extended support is not an option. > > hth, > > Doug > Regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:25:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51469106567E; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:25:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E209A8FC16; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:25:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1F12094; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:25:47 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Chris Marlatt References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> <48481015.4030806@rxsec.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:25:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <48481015.4030806@rxsec.com> (Chris Marlatt's message of "Thu\, 05 Jun 2008 12\:11\:01 -0400") Message-ID: <86lk1jd9hw.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Jo Rhett , Kris Kennaway , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:25:50 -0000 Chris Marlatt writes: > This may or may not be the case. Like I said if it's a horrible idea > sorry for wasting your time. But it seems fairly logical to me as a > good solution to the problem and should net the team more time for > things that really count. How does *increasing our workload* free up "more time for things that really count"? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:28:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0E7106567C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:28:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C3C8FC3E for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:28:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55IRjJE000366; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:27:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:22:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806051422.00836.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:27:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/7373/Thu Jun 5 12:55:14 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:28:04 -0000 On Thursday 05 June 2008 12:14:20 pm Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:23:55 -0400 John Baldwin > wrote: > > > > FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 patches for > > known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for 6.2 that > > never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also have many > > machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less issues with bge0 > > devices than 6.2. > > > > I'm glad to hear that. I have a server that uses bce, and it was completely > non-functional until I hunted down some beta code that made it usable. I'd > like to upgrade, but this is a critical server with no redundancy (and it's a > hobby site with no money to pay for expensive support), and I'm not about to > upgrade unless I know for certain the problems won't reoccur, because I have to > upgrade remotely and pay money if the system goes down. I find that bce(4) is far more reliable in 6.3 than 6.1 for us. There have been several fixes (esp. for higher loads, and mostly in 6.2) to this driver. There are known panics in earlier 6.x that are fixed in 6.3 for certain with this driver. In general though, you don't know which bugs are fixed and if any regressions are present w/o testing the code. If you have production systems then hopefully you have QA systems for development, etc. and you can either reuse those when app QA isn't active for OS QA or you can get dedicated boxes for OS QA. Even if you used a commercial OS with a support contract you would need to do the same. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:29:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A92106564A; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:29:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843998FC29; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:29:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 38FFC8C0D5; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:29:17 -0500 To: Chris Marlatt , Jo Rhett , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Message-ID: <20080605182917.GB748@soaustin.net> References: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:29:17 -0000 kris points out that I botched my reply by confusing contributions from 2 different posters. My apologies (I have not closely tracked the entire thread). Nevertheless, the URLs and the summary information should still be of interest. mcl From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:31:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0442A1065679 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC698FC29 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:31:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,597,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1001315" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 13:31:44 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 305B823DE8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:31:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:31:44 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <8A3638B8BF777C9DF4AB354A@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <1212684781.10665.81.camel@localhost> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <1212684781.10665.81.camel@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:31:45 -0000 --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 17:53:01 +0100 Tom Evans wrote: > > I think that, especially with open source products, there is a large > emphasis on testing in your own environments, and choosing the 'correct' > version of a particular software package is important. For example, at > $JOB, we had a lot of servers running 6.1 as it was an extended lifetime > release, so no point jumping to 6.2, instead we waited for 6.3 to pass > our integration testing. > Not everyone has those kinds of resources. The domain I'm referring to is a hobby site, run by a husband and wife. They started with shared hosting and moved to a dedicated box when I volunteered to help with the backend work. For several years we ran one server hosting dns, imaps, smtps, mail lists and websites. Yes, it's not ideal, but when you have zero income you do what you can. Testing like you describe is out of the question. We now have the embarrassment of riches of two servers; one for web and the old one for the rest. The old box is still running 5.4 SECURITY. The new box is running 6.1. I'd *like* to upgrade both boxes, and the older box can go offline comfortably for several hours without anyone but me noticing. But if the web box goes down for 30 seconds, queries from the users start pouring in. > We buy usually the same chassis for all our servers, and test > extensively before deploying to a new chassis/OS/anything. This is the > definition of change management, which is expensive, takes lots of time > and planning, and doesn't guarantee zaroo bugs - just a high likelihood > of not hitting them. It also isn't smooth, when we tested 6.1, we found > a multitude of bugs in bce(4), which we worked with net@ and David > Christensen of Broadcom to get fixed (they work lovely now :). > Wouldn't that be nice! Unfortunately, it's not reality for some of us. And I'm not going to run anything but FreeBSD, because it's the best open source solution there is, bar none. When I run into problems I usually don't say much on the lists. I use Google and read diffs and try to do my best to figure it out on my own. But testing? Not a chance? Contributing? I do what I can. I maintain a bunch of ports. I'm not a developer, and I can't "read" code and figure out what's going on except for the simplest of tasks. -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:36:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86436106567C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:36:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.111]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE048FC28 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:36:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,597,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1261742" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-001.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 13:35:54 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A515623DE8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:35:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:35:54 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3E1DBCBBB1C614B1DBD0F166@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <200806051910.20319.pieter@degoeje.nl> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <200806051910.20319.pieter@degoeje.nl> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:36:03 -0000 --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 19:10:19 +0200 Pieter de Goeje wrote: > > There's a really easy way to test this. Build & install a new kernel, but > keep the old kernel around (by default it's in /boot/kernel.old). If the > problem is gone, do the upgrade as usual. If it's still there, you know > upgrading won't fix it and you don't waste time; simply rename kernel.old to > kernel. This even works with 7.0 provided that you leave COMPAT_FREEBSD6 in > the kernel configuration file. It's not quite that simple. To do that, I have to block out time to drive 45 miles during my supposed "off" hours and do the upgrade there. Because, if it breaks networking and I'm at home, the server will be down for at least an hour until I can drive to the hosting company, get access to the server and restore the old kernel. Again, I'm not complaining. Just sayin' that sometimes stuff ain't quite as easy to do as folks who are surrounded by hardware and test platforms assume it is. -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:36:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49BF1065724 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:36:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892978FC14 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:36:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 139638C0D2; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:18:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:18:32 -0500 To: Jo Rhett , Kris Kennaway , FreeBSD Stable Message-ID: <20080605181832.GA31773@soaustin.net> References: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:36:11 -0000 On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 05:39:36PM +0200, Kris Kennaway wrote: > You seem awful hostile - do you really think that's the best way to > represent the project you're involved with? When confronted with "what you are doing is wrong, but I am not going to tell you what it is because if you cared you'd already know" (my summary of your past postings in this thread)? Possibly not 'best' but 'understandable'. > The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both > interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support > for a longer period of time. If you want FreeBSD to be supported the same as a commercial product, and you be able to dictate the terms, then it's not going to happen completely via volunteer effort. At some point some money is going to have to change hands. Either you pay someone at your company to do support, or you hire someone external. Then you get to dictate what is supported and for how long. Otherwise, all you can do is to suggest. A "consensus statement" signed off on by one person is the former -- not the latter. Now to add my own frustration to the list ... I next note that _after_ you said you had no more time to continue with this thread for now (and thus could not yet give us pointers to specific failures and any corresponding PR numbers), you are still replying to email. Since you still seem to have some time, let me help you do a little research here. Checking the PRs that you have submitted that are still current, none of the src-related ones are from anything newer than 6.0R: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?originator=Jo+Rhett There are some resources to help you find already-submitted PRs to reference if it will help. (The latter 2 are new, and are attempts by the bugbusting team to flag 'well-known problem' and 'PR indicates regression'): http://wiki.freebsd.org/JeremyChadwick/Commonly_reported_issues http://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/studies/prs/well_known_prs.html http://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/studies/prs/prs_for_tag_regression.html Now I'll admit the following is a less-obvious query of the database, but it's my attempt to show regressions that we have already flagged in 6.3: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?release=%5EFreeBSD+6.3&category=kern&text=regression So these 4 links should give you some quick ways to generate some PR numbers for us. Finally, here are some statistics about PR count: rel all kern --- --- ---- 6.0 210 91 6.1 217 81 6.2 396 102 6.3 167 56 7.0 563 140 To me, this doesn't look like an overwhelming case for 6.3 being worse off than 6.2. Yes, I'm sure there are regressions: there are in any release. mcl From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:41:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9BC106566C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:41:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0CE8FC12; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:41:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4848336B.60907@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:41:47 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Schmehl References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <1212684781.10665.81.camel@localhost> <8A3638B8BF777C9DF4AB354A@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <8A3638B8BF777C9DF4AB354A@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:41:46 -0000 Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 17:53:01 +0100 Tom Evans > wrote: >> >> I think that, especially with open source products, there is a large >> emphasis on testing in your own environments, and choosing the 'correct' >> version of a particular software package is important. For example, at >> $JOB, we had a lot of servers running 6.1 as it was an extended lifetime >> release, so no point jumping to 6.2, instead we waited for 6.3 to pass >> our integration testing. >> > > Not everyone has those kinds of resources. The domain I'm referring to > is a hobby site, run by a husband and wife. They started with shared > hosting and moved to a dedicated box when I volunteered to help with the > backend work. For several years we ran one server hosting dns, imaps, > smtps, mail lists and websites. > > Yes, it's not ideal, but when you have zero income you do what you can. > Testing like you describe is out of the question. > > We now have the embarrassment of riches of two servers; one for web and > the old one for the rest. The old box is still running 5.4 SECURITY. > The new box is running 6.1. I'd *like* to upgrade both boxes, and the > older box can go offline comfortably for several hours without anyone > but me noticing. But if the web box goes down for 30 seconds, queries > from the users start pouring in. Come now, even some of the biggest websites on the planet have scheduled downtime :) Kris From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:44:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8FD106566B for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513588FC14 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,597,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1002553" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 13:44:05 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D35D23DE8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:44:06 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <7B79C3A3998654916BC4E4EE@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <200806051422.00836.jhb@freebsd.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <200806051422.00836.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:44:06 -0000 --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 14:22:00 -0400 John Baldwin wrote: > > I find that bce(4) is far more reliable in 6.3 than 6.1 for us. There have > been several fixes (esp. for higher loads, and mostly in 6.2) to this driver. > There are known panics in earlier 6.x that are fixed in 6.3 for certain with > this driver. > Thanks. Knowing that gives me a lot more confidence to go ahead and build a new kernel for that server. > In general though, you don't know which bugs are fixed and if any regressions > are present w/o testing the code. If you have production systems then > hopefully you have QA systems for development, etc. and you can either reuse > those when app QA isn't active for OS QA or you can get dedicated boxes for > OS QA. Even if you used a commercial OS with a support contract you would > need to do the same. Again, that would be nice, but **just like FreeBSD** this is an all volunteer project where both time and money are at a premium. If I had a dollar for every time my wife complained about me using my valuable free time to support this site without any compensation, I could probably afford a test bed. :-) -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 18:56:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70633106566C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:56:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no) Received: from osl1smout1.broadpark.no (osl1smout1.broadpark.no [80.202.4.58]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284228FC13 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:56:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Received: from osl1sminn1.broadpark.no ([80.202.4.59]) by osl1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0K2000INB78U0M70@osl1smout1.broadpark.no> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:55:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kg-work.kg4.no ([80.202.72.251]) by osl1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-3.01 (built Jul 12 2007; 32bit)) with SMTP id <0K2000M0878T7SY5@osl1sminn1.broadpark.no> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:55:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:55:41 +0200 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-id: <20080605205541.a2e26693.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> In-reply-to: <48481BF4.4030209@FreeBSD.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <20080605175921.5e994658.torfinn.ingolfsen@broadpark.no> <48481BF4.4030209@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.3) X-Face: "t9w2,-X@O^I`jVW\sonI3.,36KBLZE*AL[y9lL[PyFD*r_S:dIL9c[8Y>V42R0"!"yb_zN,f#%.[PYYNq; m"_0v; ~rUM2Yy!zmkh)3&U|u!=T(zyv,MHJv"nDH>OJ`t(@mil461d_B'Uo|'nMwlKe0Mv=kvV?Nh@>Hb<3s_z2jYgZhPb@?Wi^x1a~Hplz1.zH Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:56:05 -0000 On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:01:40 -0700 Doug Barton wrote: > Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:51:05 -0700 > > Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > > > >> Offering monetary compensation is not a solution, and I believe > >> that's because the core problem isn't lack of pay -- it's lack of > >> time. That's one which is really hard to solve, no matter what the > >> conditions of an open-source project. > > > > Hmm, perhaps you and others should train people instead? > > Offer to pay a student to learn FreeBSD, and to train her / him as > > developer. > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/summerofcode-2008.html Yes, I know about Google SoC, and it is a good thing (a _very_ good thing). I was thinking more along the lines that if offering money for fixing stuff doesn't work, then maybe getting more interest (in addition to SoC) would work better. Therer must be a reason why nobody has formed a commercial compnay to fix bugs / develop new features fro FreeBSD (either with own employees or with hired people) already. To me, that means that the demand isn't big enough to make it a viable business plan. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 20:08:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610F11065687 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:08:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [91.103.162.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246CA8FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:08:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8383B19E027; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:49:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3940419E023; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:48:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4848433C.5020406@quip.cz> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:49:16 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete French References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gmirror patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:08:29 -0000 Pete French wrote: > Has anybody else had a chance to try the gmirror patches I posted here a > few weeks ago ? I;ve had no feedback so far - not sre if thats good > news or just that nobody tried them. they can be found here if > people are interested: > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=123630 > > I;ve been running ths for a month with no ill effecets whatsoever, and would > very much like to get this commited somehow. I am not sure of the best > way to do this though, as it's not an actual bug per-se. Whom would I > approach about getting this added to the tree ? You can get more attention in freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org mailinglist and gmirror autor - P.J. Dawidek. pjd@FreeBSD.org Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 22:02:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854D7106567A for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CF58FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:02:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-215-175.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.215.175]) by mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m55M2m3p022151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:02:49 +1000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m55M2j0f067550; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:02:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m55M2i1c067549; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:02:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:02:44 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Paul Schmehl Message-ID: <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uCozLMBrA/OCc/kF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:02:52 -0000 --uCozLMBrA/OCc/kF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2008-Jun-05 10:33:18 -0500, Paul Schmehl wrot= e: >--On Thursday, June 05, 2008 18:39:07 +1000 Peter Jeremy=20 > wrote: > >> On 2008-Jun-04 22:22:33 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: >>> And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to work >>> for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 because >>> 6.3 isn't ready yet. >>=20 >> So you have stated. When asked to provide evidence to backup that >> statement, you have refused. Since you are the one claiming that >> "6.3 isn't ready yet", the onus is on you to put up or shut up. > >That is a blatant lie. I take exception to being called a lier. Please either explain which of my above statements is false or apologise. > He has stated repeatedly that there are *known*=20 >bugs, complete with bug reports, that are not resolved and that affect the= =20 >hardware he uses. He has also stated that there is no need for him to=20 >provide further evidence of an already documented bug, I agree that he has made those statements - and those statements may even be true. When asked to provide details of the bugs or references to those problems, he has refused. Random, unsubstantiated claims are hardly evidence of anything. I have checked back through this thread and the provided descriptions of the problems that he believes affect him are (to quote him) "gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems". Note that he hasn't done any testing to verify that these problems actually affect his hardware environment. When asked to, he refused. Likewise, he describes his systems as (again, quoting him) "Rackable systems with 3ware controllers". (I note that in another post, you complain about a problem you are having - though you are able to provide details of both the problem and your hardware/software environment). To summarise, so far the OP has made a series of unsubstantianted claims about vaguely defined problems on vaguely defined hardware. When asked for more details, he has refused. Exactly what do you expect the FreeBSD developers to do? > yet he is willing to=20 >provide equipment with 6.3 RELEASE installed if any developer needs a=20 >platform to test and troubleshoot the bugs. In the absence of any details about the problems he believes he has, such an offer is meaningless. Reading his actual posting, it reads more like "who would like to do my QA/validation for me and fix any bugs they find for free". In general, the underlying problem is lack of developer resources, rather than lack of hardware. >What is the purpose of the insults and denigration? I fail to see where I have insulted or denigrated anyone. OTOH, your first words to me were an insult. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --uCozLMBrA/OCc/kF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhIYoQACgkQ/opHv/APuIccMQCfWb3JTCZu06L2NMri+Qy5sRCR tM0AoLqOEyxwBQxwgcF3IdB/Ql4OCl1R =gy3E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uCozLMBrA/OCc/kF-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 22:18:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815F9106567C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:18:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [91.103.162.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7458FC17 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:18:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id F025C19E027; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:18:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9416619E023; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:18:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48486659.6040007@quip.cz> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:19:05 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Schmehl References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <200806051910.20319.pieter@degoeje.nl> <3E1DBCBBB1C614B1DBD0F166@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <3E1DBCBBB1C614B1DBD0F166@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:18:51 -0000 Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 19:10:19 +0200 Pieter de Goeje > wrote: > >> >> There's a really easy way to test this. Build & install a new kernel, but >> keep the old kernel around (by default it's in /boot/kernel.old). If the >> problem is gone, do the upgrade as usual. If it's still there, you know >> upgrading won't fix it and you don't waste time; simply rename >> kernel.old to >> kernel. This even works with 7.0 provided that you leave >> COMPAT_FREEBSD6 in >> the kernel configuration file. > > > It's not quite that simple. To do that, I have to block out time to > drive 45 miles during my supposed "off" hours and do the upgrade there. > Because, if it breaks networking and I'm at home, the server will be > down for at least an hour until I can drive to the hosting company, get > access to the server and restore the old kernel. > > Again, I'm not complaining. Just sayin' that sometimes stuff ain't > quite as easy to do as folks who are surrounded by hardware and test > platforms assume it is. I fully understand your situation, but I think there is still way to try... You can use `nextboot` command. If you install new kernel in to /boot/kernel.new/ directory, just use: nextboot -k kernel.new and then reboot the server. New kernel will be used for this (and only this) cycle. So if something goes wrong and you have any possibility to reboot server again (PDU or by phone call to collocation), you will be back with old good kernel without need to travel. I did it a few times and it saved me ;) Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 22:32:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D140D10656AC for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:32:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795178FC26 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:32:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.local (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m55MW3i9022749; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:32:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <48486962.7030001@samsco.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:32:02 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080313 SeaMonkey/1.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <74EB4162-74CB-4591-B7E5-8156BB56C29E@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <74EB4162-74CB-4591-B7E5-8156BB56C29E@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:32:10 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 4, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Scott Long wrote: >> Really, if it's such a big issue that you have time to bitch an moan >> on the mailing lists, I don't understand why you don't have time to also >> help a goddamned developer identify the problem. Are you actually >> experiencing problems with 6.3, or not? > > > None of the bugs were in a state with the developer trying to identify > the system. We have several systems dedicated for FreeBSD developers to > use for test cases already, and we'd be happy to provide another if one > was necessary. > What is needed prior to talking about loaner systems and test cases is for you to say, "Hardware XYZ isn't working for me anymore. It used to do FOO, and now it does BAR." That's the first step. It's a simple step, but it's an essential step. Seriously. And if you aren't actually experiencing any problems, then all I can say is that your input on the release and support process has been noted, and we all look forward to bug reports from you in the future. And before you circle back on the "but but but the PR database shows unresolved bugs" argument, understand that few of us on this mailing lists are idiots; we know how to read, and we are aware that there are PR entries. What pushes a stalled PR along, though, is having an interested party bring it up and offer insight into the specifics of it. Just pointing from afar adds nothing to the process. You're welcome to disagree on that point, but it seems pretty clear that continuing to argue it in this forum isn't really solving anything. So I'll try one last time.... you seem to be concerned about possible bugs in the the 3ware and broadcom drivers. Can you please provide specifics on what you are concerned about? Any personal insight or experience you have would be highly helpful and appreciated. Scott From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 23:10:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6841065676 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:10:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFC18FC0C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:10:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,598,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1015948" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 18:10:44 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DAAC823DE8 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:10:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:10:45 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:10:46 -0000 --On Friday, June 06, 2008 08:02:44 +1000 Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Jun-05 10:33:18 -0500, Paul Schmehl wrote: >> --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 18:39:07 +1000 Peter Jeremy >> wrote: >> >>> On 2008-Jun-04 22:22:33 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: >>>> And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to work >>>> for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 because >>>> 6.3 isn't ready yet. >>> >>> So you have stated. When asked to provide evidence to backup that >>> statement, you have refused. Since you are the one claiming that >>> "6.3 isn't ready yet", the onus is on you to put up or shut up. >> >> That is a blatant lie. > > I take exception to being called a lier. Please either explain which of > my above statements is false or apologise. I apologize. I reacted in anger because I felt the OP was being savagely attacked rather than being responded to with professionalism. Later in the thread some folks got around to asking which PRs he was referring to, but that was after attacking him for having the temerity to suggest that perhaps 6.2 shouldn't be EOL. > >> He has stated repeatedly that there are *known* >> bugs, complete with bug reports, that are not resolved and that affect the >> hardware he uses. He has also stated that there is no need for him to >> provide further evidence of an already documented bug, > > I agree that he has made those statements - and those statements may > even be true. When asked to provide details of the bugs or references > to those problems, he has refused. Random, unsubstantiated claims are > hardly evidence of anything. > I don't recall him ever refusing. I think after his initial post he's been forced to defend himself from attack from 360 degrees. It's rather hard to focus on the facts when you're being attacked like that. That's what provoked me to respond as I did - to you and to others. > > To summarise, so far the OP has made a series of unsubstantianted > claims about vaguely defined problems on vaguely defined hardware. > When asked for more details, he has refused. I think that's an unfair characterization. He stated that he had noted numerous bugs in 6.3 (submitted PRs) that he perceived affected him personally and so he chose not to update to 6.3. He then asked if 6.2 couldn't be extended farther. That seems like a reasonable question to ask. A simple, professional answer would have settled the matter quickly. But it was all downhill from there. I'm not here to defend him. He can do that himself. What I took offense to was the gang mentality of jumping on him and accusing him of things no one could possibly have knowledge of and the childish, immature reaction of some on the list. > Exactly what do you expect the FreeBSD developers to do? > I expect the FreeBSD developers to continue to produce the highest quality OS on the market. I also expect them to treat their customers with respect and professionalism and patience. I don't think that's too much to ask. Shouldn't the developers' behavior match the high quality of their work? I recently had to deal with two PRs for ports that I maintain. I initially thought both were rather silly. After testing, I found that one was not, and in fact, the user had uncovered a problem I would never have thought to test for (and obviously hadn't.) Had I jumped on them for not giving more details or harangued the committer for not pointing out my errors, I would have missed an opportunity to improve both a port and my knowledge of porting. But I withheld my personal views and approached both submitters with respect and professionalism. In the end, I was wrong. But no one but me knew that (until now) because I withheld my personal, emotional response. I'm not bragging. I don't think that's anything to brag about. I just think we'd all benefit if we could keep the personal opinions personal and deal with requests on the list with respect and professionalism, just as we would like to be treated. >> yet he is willing to >> provide equipment with 6.3 RELEASE installed if any developer needs a >> platform to test and troubleshoot the bugs. > > In the absence of any details about the problems he believes he has, > such an offer is meaningless. You can't possibly mean that. Your choice of words is horrible. How can it ever be meaningless to offer assistance to the community, however small? I've noticed this attitude on more than one occasion. It's as if "we" are the little people, not fit to be in the same room with the mighty developers. Rest assured, each of us has talents that others can't match and each of us has weaknesses that others can expose. We'd all be better off if we focused on the former and de-emphasized the latter. > Reading his actual posting, it reads > more like "who would like to do my QA/validation for me and fix any > bugs they find for free". In general, the underlying problem is lack > of developer resources, rather than lack of hardware. > OK. When he originally posted his question, someone should have simply said, "The EOL issue is well settled and no longer open to debate. However, we'd be happy to try and resolve any issues you think you might have upgrading to 6.3 if you can provide us with the following: 1) Specific issues including references to specific PRs 2) A list of any assistance you can or would be willing to provide to help isolate these issues That alone would have wasted much less of the valuable developers' limited resources. (And I mean that with all sincerity. I have the highest respect for what you folks do and wish I had the skills to contribute.) >> What is the purpose of the insults and denigration? > > I fail to see where I have insulted or denigrated anyone. OTOH, your > first words to me were an insult. I know you fail to see that. I've noticed others have as well. That doesn't mean they aren't preceived that way any more than your perception of his approach to this issue isn't at all what he thought it was. Misunderstanding cuts both ways. -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 23:11:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B011065673 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) Received: from ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu (ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu [129.110.20.112]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1928FC1C for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=pschmehl_lists=0350784f4@tx.rr.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.27,598,1204524000"; d="scan'208";a="1015972" Received: from smtp3.utdallas.edu ([129.110.20.110]) by ip-relay-002.utdallas.edu with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2008 18:11:49 -0500 Received: from utd65257.utdallas.edu (utd65257.utdallas.edu [129.110.3.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.utdallas.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CED923DE8; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:11:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:11:49 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <549F093490ADB6BC7F6AA5D1@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <48486659.6040007@quip.cz> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <200806051910.20319.pieter@degoeje.nl> <3E1DBCBBB1C614B1DBD0F166@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48486659.6040007@quip.cz> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.6 (Linux/x86) X-Munged-Reply-To: Figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:11:50 -0000 --On Friday, June 06, 2008 00:19:05 +0200 Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: > Paul Schmehl wrote: > >> --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 19:10:19 +0200 Pieter de Goeje >> wrote: >> >>> >>> There's a really easy way to test this. Build & install a new kernel, but >>> keep the old kernel around (by default it's in /boot/kernel.old). If the >>> problem is gone, do the upgrade as usual. If it's still there, you know >>> upgrading won't fix it and you don't waste time; simply rename >>> kernel.old to >>> kernel. This even works with 7.0 provided that you leave >>> COMPAT_FREEBSD6 in >>> the kernel configuration file. >> >> >> It's not quite that simple. To do that, I have to block out time to >> drive 45 miles during my supposed "off" hours and do the upgrade there. >> Because, if it breaks networking and I'm at home, the server will be >> down for at least an hour until I can drive to the hosting company, get >> access to the server and restore the old kernel. >> >> Again, I'm not complaining. Just sayin' that sometimes stuff ain't >> quite as easy to do as folks who are surrounded by hardware and test >> platforms assume it is. > > I fully understand your situation, but I think there is still way to try... > You can use `nextboot` command. If you install new kernel in to > /boot/kernel.new/ directory, just use: nextboot -k kernel.new and then reboot > the server. New kernel will be used for this (and only this) cycle. So if > something goes wrong and you have any possibility to reboot server again (PDU > or by phone call to collocation), you will be back with old good kernel > without need to travel. > > I did it a few times and it saved me ;) Thank you. I was unaware of the nextboot command. That's a valuable tidbit that I will benefit from. Thank you very much. -- Paul Schmehl As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 00:11:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D53106567E for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:11:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [91.103.162.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4B38FC0A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:11:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3713819E023; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:11:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1A2819E019; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:11:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <484880D6.2060900@quip.cz> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:12:06 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Sposato References: <4848433C.5020406@quip.cz> <48487D60.9040305@sucked-in.com> In-Reply-To: <48487D60.9040305@sucked-in.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: stable@freebsd.org, Pete French Subject: Re: gmirror patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:11:51 -0000 Terry Sposato wrote: > Miroslav Lachman wrote: > >> Pete French wrote: >> >>> Has anybody else had a chance to try the gmirror patches I posted here a >>> few weeks ago ? I;ve had no feedback so far - not sre if thats good >>> news or just that nobody tried them. they can be found here if >>> people are interested: >>> >>> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=123630 >>> >>> I;ve been running ths for a month with no ill effecets whatsoever, >>> and would >>> very much like to get this commited somehow. I am not sure of the best >>> way to do this though, as it's not an actual bug per-se. Whom would I >>> approach about getting this added to the tree ? >> >> >> You can get more attention in freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org mailinglist and >> gmirror autor - P.J. Dawidek. pjd@FreeBSD.org >> >> Miroslav Lachman > > Am I missing something here? It seems like the patch you attached to the > PR is a binary so it is not viewable by anyone? Patch is gzipped and can be easily gunziped after download. (and uuencoded in webpage view) It is true that patch is better in plaintext diff. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 00:16:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37A9106566C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:16:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from terry@sucked-in.com) Received: from mail.sucked-in.com (got.sucked-in.com [64.251.22.156]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3468FC16 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:16:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from terry@sucked-in.com) Received: from localhost (got.sucked-in.com [64.251.22.156]) by mail.sucked-in.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5221A1CCA3; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:57:37 +1000 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sucked-in.com Received: from mail.sucked-in.com ([64.251.22.156]) by localhost (mail.sucked-in.com [64.251.22.156]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2T3KV0XvJCeU; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:57:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (220.253-205-157.VIC.netspace.net.au [220.253.205.157]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sucked-in.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E725E1CC95; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:57:35 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <48487D60.9040305@sucked-in.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:57:20 +1000 From: Terry Sposato Organization: http://www.sucked-in.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> References: <4848433C.5020406@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <4848433C.5020406@quip.cz> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig29A6D01EC45390D20E831D12" Cc: stable@freebsd.org, Pete French Subject: Re: gmirror patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:16:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig29A6D01EC45390D20E831D12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Miroslav Lachman wrote: > Pete French wrote: >> Has anybody else had a chance to try the gmirror patches I posted here= a >> few weeks ago ? I;ve had no feedback so far - not sre if thats good >> news or just that nobody tried them. they can be found here if >> people are interested: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3D123630 >> >> I;ve been running ths for a month with no ill effecets whatsoever, and= =20 >> would >> very much like to get this commited somehow. I am not sure of the best= >> way to do this though, as it's not an actual bug per-se. Whom would I >> approach about getting this added to the tree ? >=20 > You can get more attention in freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org mailinglist and = > gmirror autor - P.J. Dawidek. pjd@FreeBSD.org >=20 > Miroslav Lachman > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" Am I missing something here? It seems like the patch you attached to the = PR is a binary so it is not viewable by anyone? --=20 Regards, Terry Sposato terry@sucked-in.com http://www.sucked-in.com GnuPG Key : 0xB7643BC8 Fingerprint: EE92 D9E1 C98E 759F 5991 DFF6 70CE 8936 B764 3BC8 --------------enig29A6D01EC45390D20E831D12 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAkhIfWAACgkQcM6JNrdkO8iHFgCfWNEgCdXaETJp7+ruwP41VpJd nxkAoLwybujrftkpbYTdm0+Z4lFknMaO =le4R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig29A6D01EC45390D20E831D12-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 01:04:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912A61065678 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kutulu@kutulu.org) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460278FC0C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kutulu@kutulu.org) Received: from basement.kutulu.org ([70.121.200.185]) by cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080606010422.RRHX20096.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@basement.kutulu.org> for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:04:22 +0000 Received: from [192.168.69.4] (wombat.jungle [192.168.69.4]) by basement.kutulu.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D0E411440; Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:04:26 -0400 From: Mike Edenfield User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Schmehl References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> In-Reply-To: <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 01:04:23 -0000 Paul Schmehl wrote: > I think that's an unfair characterization. He stated that he had > noted numerous bugs in 6.3 (submitted PRs) that he perceived affected > him personally and so he chose not to update to 6.3. He then asked if > 6.2 couldn't be extended farther. That seems like a reasonable > question to ask. A simple, professional answer would have settled the > matter quickly. Part of the problem is that a few of us (including myself) *have* looked for the PRs he referenced and can't find them. There are only three critical PR's opened on the hardware devices he mentioned that are filed specifically against version 6.3: one each for bge, gmirror, and 3ware. Of those, one of them appears to be sporadic, one of them appears to be specific to a particular obscure BIOS, and one of them involved a specific dual-card setup on a specific type of motherboard. And none of those *specifically* say that they cannot be reproduced on 6.2 -- one of them is actually filed against version 5 through 7. Since we also know very little about the specific hardware setup of the OP, it's impossible to determine if these are, in fact, the PRs he's looking at, or if he's actually looking at other less-critical PRs that may need to be bumped up to critical, or if they're misfiled, or who knows what. In short, the problem reports that the OP is looking at are not immediately obvious to someone who doesn't already know what they are, and he's not doing himself any favors by insisting that everyone else "already knows" about these problems. If he's seen these bug reports, presumably he knows what their PR #'s are, or at the very least the description of the bugs, and it would be many many times faster for him to just say so than continue to insist that other people read his mind. --Mike From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 08:08:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7814B1065686; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:08:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E070F8FC28; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:08:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=daemon.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4Whg-0009n8-R5; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:49:40 +0800 Message-ID: <4848EC14.8060700@micom.mng.net> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:49:40 +0800 From: Ganbold User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080415) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Vogel References: <2a41acea0805030014x244e1311v945e23266961193d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a41acea0805030014x244e1311v945e23266961193d@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=78F6425E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jfv@freebsd.org, "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Stable List Subject: Re: MFC of em/igb drivers X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:08:33 -0000 Jack Vogel wrote: > I got the new drivers in Friday afternoon for those that don't see CVS > messages. > > The igb driver is for 82575 and 82576 adapters, it has multiqueue support and > MSIX, there will be more server type enhancements in that driver as I get the > time. > > The em driver now will be client oriented, the latest hardware support however > is for 82574, Hartwell, which is a really nice low cost PCIE dual-port adapter, > that actually also has MSIX. This first released support for it will > use 3 interrupt > vectors, one for TX, one for RX, and Link. The hardware actually supports 5 > vectors, so I am planning to add support for another RX and TX queue as my > schedule allows. > > Hartwell is also the first adapter that has IEEE 1588 PTP support, the driver > provides init and an ioctl interface to use that facility, I hope we > see software > support follow on soon. This is an early announcement, I am not sure on > exact dates for availability but they should be soon. > > As ever, issues and bugs should be sent to me. Cheers everyone! > > Jack > Jack, I have Intel Gigabit card and FreeBSD-7.0-STABLE recognizes it as following: ... em0@pci0:0:25:0: class=0x020000 card=0x2800103c chip=0x104a8086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '82566DM Gigabit Network Connection' class = network subclass = ethernet ... # uname -an FreeBSD test.ub.mng.net 7.0-STABLE FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #0: Thu Jun 5 11:12:34 ULAT 2008 tsgan@test.ub.mng.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/FIREWALL i386 It has some problem, 1000baseTX connection status almost never goes to active in bridged mode, sometimes it goes to active but then immediately it goes to no carrier. (The other end is Cisco4507R, Gigabit Ethernet port) ... em0: flags=8943 metric 0 mtu 1500 options=198 ether 00:0f:fe:82:23:db media: Ethernet 1000baseTX (autoselect) status: no carrier ... Any idea how to solve this issue? thanks, Ganbold > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-net@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-net-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > -- Q: How many pre-med's does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Five: One to change the bulb and four to pull the ladder out from under him. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 09:04:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D6C1065681; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:04:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F408FC18; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:04:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 692CE1CC031; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:04:52 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Ganbold Message-ID: <20080606090452.GA38593@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <2a41acea0805030014x244e1311v945e23266961193d@mail.gmail.com> <4848EC14.8060700@micom.mng.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4848EC14.8060700@micom.mng.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: jfv@freebsd.org, "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Stable List , Jack Vogel Subject: Re: MFC of em/igb drivers X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:04:52 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 03:49:40PM +0800, Ganbold wrote: > Jack Vogel wrote: >> I got the new drivers in Friday afternoon for those that don't see CVS >> messages. >> >> The igb driver is for 82575 and 82576 adapters, it has multiqueue support and >> MSIX, there will be more server type enhancements in that driver as I get the >> time. >> >> The em driver now will be client oriented, the latest hardware support however >> is for 82574, Hartwell, which is a really nice low cost PCIE dual-port adapter, >> that actually also has MSIX. This first released support for it will >> use 3 interrupt >> vectors, one for TX, one for RX, and Link. The hardware actually supports 5 >> vectors, so I am planning to add support for another RX and TX queue as my >> schedule allows. >> >> Hartwell is also the first adapter that has IEEE 1588 PTP support, the driver >> provides init and an ioctl interface to use that facility, I hope we >> see software >> support follow on soon. This is an early announcement, I am not sure on >> exact dates for availability but they should be soon. >> >> As ever, issues and bugs should be sent to me. Cheers everyone! > > I have Intel Gigabit card and FreeBSD-7.0-STABLE recognizes it as following: > ... > em0@pci0:0:25:0: class=0x020000 card=0x2800103c chip=0x104a8086 > rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = '82566DM Gigabit Network Connection' > class = network > subclass = ethernet > ... > # uname -an > FreeBSD test.ub.mng.net 7.0-STABLE FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #0: Thu Jun 5 > 11:12:34 ULAT 2008 tsgan@test.ub.mng.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/FIREWALL > i386 > > > It has some problem, 1000baseTX connection status almost never goes to > active in bridged mode, sometimes > it goes to active but then immediately it goes to no carrier. (The other > end is Cisco4507R, Gigabit Ethernet port) > ... > em0: flags=8943 metric 0 > mtu 1500 > options=198 > ether 00:0f:fe:82:23:db > media: Ethernet 1000baseTX (autoselect) > status: no carrier > ... > > Any idea how to solve this issue? Have you tried disabling speed and duplex negotiation and explicitly stating speed and duplex like so? ifconfig_em0="... media 1000baseTX mediaopt full-duplex" Cisco switches have a notorious history of not being "friendly" with non-Cisco hardware. Forcing duplex on both ends of the link (that means on both the host side, and the Cisco side!) usually fixes it. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 09:29:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1D21065684; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:29:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542C78FC1B; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:29:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=daemon.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4YGY-000AXN-BO; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:29:46 +0800 Message-ID: <4849038A.5040007@micom.mng.net> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:29:46 +0800 From: Ganbold User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080415) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <2a41acea0805030014x244e1311v945e23266961193d@mail.gmail.com> <4848EC14.8060700@micom.mng.net> <20080606090452.GA38593@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080606090452.GA38593@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=78F6425E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jfv@freebsd.org, "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Stable List , Jack Vogel Subject: Re: MFC of em/igb drivers X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:29:49 -0000 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 03:49:40PM +0800, Ganbold wrote: > >> Jack Vogel wrote: >> >>> I got the new drivers in Friday afternoon for those that don't see CVS >>> messages. >>> >>> The igb driver is for 82575 and 82576 adapters, it has multiqueue support and >>> MSIX, there will be more server type enhancements in that driver as I get the >>> time. >>> >>> The em driver now will be client oriented, the latest hardware support however >>> is for 82574, Hartwell, which is a really nice low cost PCIE dual-port adapter, >>> that actually also has MSIX. This first released support for it will >>> use 3 interrupt >>> vectors, one for TX, one for RX, and Link. The hardware actually supports 5 >>> vectors, so I am planning to add support for another RX and TX queue as my >>> schedule allows. >>> >>> Hartwell is also the first adapter that has IEEE 1588 PTP support, the driver >>> provides init and an ioctl interface to use that facility, I hope we >>> see software >>> support follow on soon. This is an early announcement, I am not sure on >>> exact dates for availability but they should be soon. >>> >>> As ever, issues and bugs should be sent to me. Cheers everyone! >>> >> I have Intel Gigabit card and FreeBSD-7.0-STABLE recognizes it as following: >> ... >> em0@pci0:0:25:0: class=0x020000 card=0x2800103c chip=0x104a8086 >> rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 >> vendor = 'Intel Corporation' >> device = '82566DM Gigabit Network Connection' >> class = network >> subclass = ethernet >> ... >> # uname -an >> FreeBSD test.ub.mng.net 7.0-STABLE FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #0: Thu Jun 5 >> 11:12:34 ULAT 2008 tsgan@test.ub.mng.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/FIREWALL >> i386 >> >> >> It has some problem, 1000baseTX connection status almost never goes to >> active in bridged mode, sometimes >> it goes to active but then immediately it goes to no carrier. (The other >> end is Cisco4507R, Gigabit Ethernet port) >> ... >> em0: flags=8943 metric 0 >> mtu 1500 >> options=198 >> ether 00:0f:fe:82:23:db >> media: Ethernet 1000baseTX (autoselect) >> status: no carrier >> ... >> >> Any idea how to solve this issue? >> > > Have you tried disabling speed and duplex negotiation and explicitly > stating speed and duplex like so? > > ifconfig_em0="... media 1000baseTX mediaopt full-duplex" > I tried it and it doesn't work. > Cisco switches have a notorious history of not being "friendly" with > non-Cisco hardware. Forcing duplex on both ends of the link (that means > on both the host side, and the Cisco side!) usually fixes it. > Tried too, doesn't work. Ganbold -- Life is too important to take seriously. -- Corky Siegel From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 10:14:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203AE106568A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:14:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Received: from bravo579.server4you.de (bravo579.server4you.de [85.25.132.33]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709608FC26 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:14:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Received: from p54b25284.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.178.82.132] helo=CNU6411PMZ) by bravo579.server4you.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.50) id 1K4Ydi-0006cX-Rh; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:53:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:53:49 +0200 From: Manfred Usselmann To: Paul Schmehl Message-Id: <20080606115349.452eea4b.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> In-Reply-To: <8A3638B8BF777C9DF4AB354A@utd65257.utdallas.edu> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <1212684781.10665.81.camel@localhost> <8A3638B8BF777C9DF4AB354A@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Organization: ICG IT Consulting GmbH X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.5.0rc (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-mingw32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Paul Schmehl , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:14:02 -0000 Hi, On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:31:44 -0500 Paul Schmehl wrote: > --On Thursday, June 05, 2008 17:53:01 +0100 Tom Evans > wrote: > > > > I think that, especially with open source products, there is a large > > emphasis on testing in your own environments, and choosing the > > 'correct' version of a particular software package is important. > > For example, at $JOB, we had a lot of servers running 6.1 as it was > > an extended lifetime release, so no point jumping to 6.2, instead > > we waited for 6.3 to pass our integration testing. > > > > Not everyone has those kinds of resources. The domain I'm referring > to is a hobby site, run by a husband and wife. They started with > shared hosting and moved to a dedicated box when I volunteered to > help with the backend work. For several years we ran one server > hosting dns, imaps, smtps, mail lists and websites. > > Yes, it's not ideal, but when you have zero income you do what you > can. Testing like you describe is out of the question. > > We now have the embarrassment of riches of two servers; one for web > and the old one for the rest. The old box is still running 5.4 > SECURITY. The new box is running 6.1. I'd *like* to upgrade both > boxes, and the older box can go offline comfortably for several hours > without anyone but me noticing. But if the web box goes down for 30 > seconds, queries from the users start pouring in. What you are saying sounds like a contradiction to me. On one side it is just a hobby site and generates no income and on the other hand it is a critical server with millions of hits and the box can't even go down for a short time. What happens in case lets say your harddisk crashes? Something which is not an exactly rare case... If the users are not paying for the service they should be able to accept a downtime, may it be scheduled or even completely unexpected. Or pay / donate for a more reliable service (Redundant server as hot standby / testbed etc.). Manfred -- Manfred Usselmann From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 11:56:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7941065670 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from votdev@gmx.de) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BBEE8FC16 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from votdev@gmx.de) Received: (qmail 17574 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2008 11:56:17 -0000 Received: from 91.103.40.50 by www178.gmx.net with HTTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:56:17 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:56:17 +0200 From: "Volker Theile" In-Reply-To: <48347329.8020902@vwsoft.com> Message-ID: <20080606115617.190950@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080521080156.209010@gmx.net> <48347329.8020902@vwsoft.com> To: Volker X-Authenticated: #1412882 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: WWW-Mail 6100 (Global Message Exchange) X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19qHVRb9CtqeU+RAA2nFOFbJ1z//sjZlTqISLmNmA ygE9iH0RLTandMm0+qbPEbMxXJWQ+QcmvVPQ== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: 2B1/Ad8NQEV/eCW5fHVp4iJCNzg2NUKK Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instant reboot with FreeBSD 6.3 and > 2GB RAM X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:56:19 -0000 Hello, i can confirm that the bug fix submitted with PR 108215 solves the reboot problem when using mfsroot images in FreeBSD 6.3. I will test it also on FreeBSD 7.0, but i assume that it will fix it there too. Many users using FreeNAS reporting this reboot problem on their machines with RAM > 2GB. Regards Volker -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Wed, 21 May 2008 21:08:25 +0200 > Von: Volker > An: votdev@gmx.de > CC: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Betreff: Re: Instant reboot with FreeBSD 6.3 and > 2GB RAM > On 12/23/-58 20:59, votdev@gmx.de wrote: > > Hello, > > > > some users of FreeNAS which is based on FreeBSD 6.3 reported instant > reboots on systems with > 2GB RAM (most of them use 4GB). The reboot occurs > right after displaying the FreeBSD loader menu. Most of them told me that > they can boot if they reduce RAM to <= 2GB. > > > > We are using the following kernel configuration which is based on > GENERIC: > > > http://freenas.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/freenas/branches/0.69/build/kernel-config/FREENAS-i386?revision=3291&view=markup > > > > I found out another problem that causes a reboot on my 2GB machine. We > are using a image for the LiveCD which is 64MB great. If i change back > mfs_root size to 63MB all works well, but all above 64MB causes a reboot. > > Is there any limitation? > > > > Could someone help me out of this problem? > > > > Regards > > Volker > > Hi Volker ;) > > I'm not quite sure about your 2nd problem and your report is not quite > detailed but from your description it looks like loader is causing that. > As there's no filesystem available at that time, the loader has to read > itself through the filesystem structures. > > Knowing that, PR misc/108215 comes to mind. I've not been able to check > if the issue and the patch to it is right but you may give it a try. > Probably somebody with loader and filesystem (ufs) knowledge may answer > that question quickly if the patch contained in the PR is right. > > The report is about 6.2-R but at least I've checked loader code and 7.x > code is the same. I came across that report yesterday and was unable to > check the calculation. > > If that is really the case, your problem may be related to that. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=108215 > > Assuming the problem report is right, it's about reading huge files by > loader reads in wrong sectors. > > HTH > > Volker -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 12:14:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B641065670; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662268FC14; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1FB9A1CC05B; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:14:57 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Ganbold Message-ID: <20080606121457.GA46283@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <2a41acea0805030014x244e1311v945e23266961193d@mail.gmail.com> <4848EC14.8060700@micom.mng.net> <20080606090452.GA38593@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <4849038A.5040007@micom.mng.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4849038A.5040007@micom.mng.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: jfv@freebsd.org, "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Stable List , Jack Vogel Subject: Re: MFC of em/igb drivers X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:14:57 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 05:29:46PM +0800, Ganbold wrote: >> Have you tried disabling speed and duplex negotiation and explicitly >> stating speed and duplex like so? >> >> ifconfig_em0="... media 1000baseTX mediaopt full-duplex" >> > > I tried it and it doesn't work. > >> Cisco switches have a notorious history of not being "friendly" with >> non-Cisco hardware. Forcing duplex on both ends of the link (that means >> on both the host side, and the Cisco side!) usually fixes it. >> > > Tried too, doesn't work. Good to know. Sounds like a driver problem; back to Jack for that one. :-) -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 13:08:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF173106567F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:08:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5136F8FC28 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:08:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1202083; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:08:25 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Paul Schmehl References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:08:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> (Paul Schmehl's message of "Thu\, 05 Jun 2008 18\:10\:45 -0500") Message-ID: <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:08:28 -0000 Paul Schmehl writes: > [...] I reacted in anger because I felt the OP was being savagely > attacked rather than being responded to with professionalism. Later > in the thread some folks got around to asking which PRs he was > referring to, but that was after attacking him for having the temerity > to suggest that perhaps 6.2 shouldn't be EOL. [...] I don't recall > him ever refusing. I think after his initial post he's been forced to > defend himself from attack from 360 degrees. [...] I came in late, and thus had the benefit of reading most of thread in context rather than piece by piece over time, and in my opinion, the above is a gross misrepresentation. I think you need to go back and re-read the thread from the beginning. Here, let me help you. Three people replied to Jo Rhett's initial email. Here's what they said, with Jo's own text elided: Doug Barton: > It isn't that we want people to upgrade, it's that we are trying to be > realistic regarding what we have the resources to support. > [...] > I admit to not having been following 6.x too closely, but are these > things that have been reported, or problems you're having personally? > [...] > Having an upgrade path is something every operation needs. "Set it and > forget it" isn't a viable strategy in the current culture where 0-day > vulnerabilities are becoming increasingly common. Scott Long: > Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? > [...] > The expectation is always that newer versions of a stable branch will > have few regressions, and thus upgrading is a low risk. John Baldwin: > FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 patches= for=20 > known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for 6.2 tha= t=20 > never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also have = many=20 > machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less issues with bg= e0=20 > devices than 6.2. >=20 > Given the real world experience I have, your claims of instability w/o ev= en=20 > testing 6.3 border on silly. Also, when it comes to bge(4), you need to = be=20 > _very_ specific about what chipsets you are using and comparing those wit= h=20 > the chipsets in the bug reports you read. The bge(4) driver in particula= r=20 > covers a vast range of different hardware variations and is a bit of a=20 > hodge-podge itself. If there is a problem with a 5705 card then it may b= e=20 > specific to just 5705 parts and not affect 575x, etc. parts. >=20 > Again, with 3ware, there are two different drivers (twe(4) vs twa(4)) and= =20 > again, you need to be more specific with which driver you are using and w= hich=20 > model controllers you have. It takes a very active imagination to describe this as an "attack from 360 degrees". The fun starts with the following exchange between Jo and Kris Kennaway (who responded to Doug): Kris Kennaway: > Also, it's not like anyone should have been caught by surprise by > the 6.2 EoL; the expiry date has been advertised since the 6.2 > release itself. Jo Rhett: > It has changed multiple times. I keep reviewing and finding 6.3 bugs > outstanding, and then observe the EoL get pushed. > > I'm surprised that it failed to get pushed this time. This is competely untrue - but Kris doesn't swallow the bait, and relies patiently and politely: > I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your > expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself > instead of assuming that it will fail. This is the crux of the matter - Jo is complaining about software he hasn't even tried. There is absolutely no way anybody can help him until he actually tries 6.3 and reports any actual bugs and regressions he finds. This subthread quickly degrades after Chris Marlatt inists that we should support LTS releases for four years instead of two, and takes personal offense at the fact that we don't have the resources to do so. Let's jump back to Scott Long's subthread: Scott Long: > Can you describe the bugs that are affecting you? Jo Rhett: > gmirror failures, 3ware raid driver timeouts, bge0 problems. All > three in production use on dozens of systems. That is also untrue. None of these are "bugs that are affecting [Jo]", since he hasn't tried running 6.3 at all. Scott Long: > Give me specific details on the 3ware and bge problems. Jo Rhett: > Familiar with searching the open bug reports? That's where I found > them. >=20 > Sorry, I'm knee-deep in a major project that I've been working 16+ > hours a day on right now, and I just don't have the time for spurious > queries. Query the open bug reports for 6.3 and then explain to me > again why 6.2 is no longer supported. Scott asks him to describe the problems he's having, and he calls that "spurious queries" which he doesn't have time for. Is that Scott attacking and disrespecting Jo, or Jo attacking and disrespecting Scott? No wonder Scott gets annoyed: > Really, if it's such a big issue that you have time to bitch an moan > on the mailing lists, I don't understand why you don't have time to > also > help a goddamned developer identify the problem. Are you actually > experiencing problems with 6.3, or not? Jo Rhett: > None of the bugs were in a state with the developer trying to identify > the system. We have several systems dedicated for FreeBSD developers > to use for test cases already, and we'd be happy to provide another if > one was necessary. Dodging the issue - Scott asked a very precise question, and the precise answer is "no". (how can Jo tell that noone is working on these PRs, either on their own hardware or in offline correspondance with the originator?) Max Laier steps in, in response to "spurious queries": > Because the people who support FreeBSD 6.2 are also knee-deep in major=20 > projects of their own!? We try try to not introduce regressions as we=20 > move forward supporting new features and hardware, but unless people put= =20 > in some effort of their own helping us to test ... >=20 > You obviously did not put in any effort of your own so why would you=20 > expect us to do the work for you? Unless you can provide "*EXACT*" bug=20 > reports and show willingness to help debugging them, there really is not= =20 > much point in this thread. But Jo refuses. He won't provide even a single PR number. He prefers to equivocate, allude and hint: > The bugs in question were very well documented. None of them were in > a state indicating that the developer could not reproduce nor were > they waiting for more info. Given that situation, I didn't see a > need to add more to a known problem. >=20 > *IF* any of them had been looking for test cases, I would have been > happy to build a test system and turn it over to the developer in > question. We do that fairly routinely. (again, how can he know for sure that nobody is working on these bugs?) I won't pretend to know what Jo is thinking or what his motivation is, but in my experience, when people respond in this manner, it's because they know they have no solid data or arguments, and are trying to save face. It goes downhill from there. That leaves John's subthread, which I won't go into since it's mainly about your own issues with bce(4) / bge(4) and seems fairly constructive. I hope this helps you to better understand who's attacking who, and who's being rude to who. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 15:16:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B568E1065672 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:16:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from petefrench@ticketswitch.com) Received: from angel.ticketswitch.com (angel.ticketswitch.com [IPv6:2002:57e0:1d4e::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E588FC20 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:16:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from petefrench@ticketswitch.com) Received: from [10.50.50.2] (helo=smaug.rattatosk) by angel.ticketswitch.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4dg0-000OVe-TH; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:16:24 +0100 Received: from dilbert.rattatosk ([10.50.50.6] helo=dilbert.ticketswitch.com) by smaug.rattatosk with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4dg0-000PqY-Q2; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:16:24 +0100 Received: from petefrench by dilbert.ticketswitch.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1K4dg0-000EGJ-P2; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:16:24 +0100 To: 000.fbsd@quip.cz, terry@sucked-in.com In-Reply-To: <484880D6.2060900@quip.cz> Message-Id: From: Pete French Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:16:24 +0100 Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gmirror patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:16:27 -0000 > Patch is gzipped and can be easily gunziped after download. (and > uuencoded in webpage view) Ah, yes, sorry about that - thought it would be obvious. I always submit changes that way as I find that whitespace has a habit of breaking otherwise. > It is true that patch is better in plaintext diff. How would I set about doing that without the whitespace being messed up by email transit ? I have always found in the past that tabs end up as spaces and then patch gets upset hwne you try to apply it. -pete. PS: thanks for the emai address BTW! From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 15:26:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E24106567C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:26:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [91.103.162.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7848FC1D for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:26:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC8119E019; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:26:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1442119E027; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:26:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4849571E.606@quip.cz> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:26:22 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete French References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gmirror patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:26:08 -0000 Pete French wrote: [...] >>It is true that patch is better in plaintext diff. > > > How would I set about doing that without the whitespace being messed up > by email transit ? I have always found in the past that tabs end up as > spaces and then patch gets upset hwne you try to apply it. I sent PR throught webform with plain text patch with txt extension (http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=124248), patch is shown on webpage with spaces instead of tabs, but if you download it, tabs are tabs. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 16:08:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46EE91065677 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vivek@khera.org) Received: from yertle.kcilink.com (thingy.kcilink.com [74.92.149.59]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A788FC19 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vivek@khera.org) Received: from host-121.int.kcilink.com (host-121.int.kcilink.com [192.168.7.121]) by yertle.kcilink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9968A1D9 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> From: Vivek Khera To: FreeBSD Stable In-Reply-To: <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:08:54 -0400 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:08:55 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Clifton Royston wrote: > Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as I'll throw in my "+1" for running 6.3. I have it on many boxes, some of which run gmirror and some of which have bge devices (some with both). Never any problems. They operate things varying from Postgres servers to DNS servers to mail servers (postfix) under pretty consistent load pushing lots and lots of data both network and to disk. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 16:11:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13BC1065673 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:11:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vivek@khera.org) Received: from yertle.kcilink.com (thingy.kcilink.com [74.92.149.59]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB0D8FC20 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:11:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vivek@khera.org) Received: from host-121.int.kcilink.com (host-121.int.kcilink.com [192.168.7.121]) by yertle.kcilink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB1E8A1D9 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <264183D1-4324-405D-B737-1555A6FFFCE7@khera.org> From: Vivek Khera To: FreeBSD Stable In-Reply-To: <7B3DA577-61F6-41D2-90B1-954E3A5A5C80@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:11:32 -0400 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <7B3DA577-61F6-41D2-90B1-954E3A5A5C80@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:11:32 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Jo Rhett wrote: > If you're asking why I don't turn a production environment over to > being a freebsd-unstable-testbed, I can't really answer that > question in a way you'd understand (if you were asking that question) If you don't have an identical setup to test new software, then you're pretty much not able to ever upgrade anything, IMO, and your "production" environment *is* a testbed for new software. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 16:13:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19CF1065670 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:13:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vivek@khera.org) Received: from yertle.kcilink.com (thingy.kcilink.com [74.92.149.59]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB5198FC18 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:13:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vivek@khera.org) Received: from host-121.int.kcilink.com (host-121.int.kcilink.com [192.168.7.121]) by yertle.kcilink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E3B8A1D9 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <0BEEE81D-74D6-49A4-AABC-380BA690B5BC@khera.org> From: Vivek Khera To: FreeBSD Stable In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:13:17 -0400 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:13:18 -0000 On Jun 4, 2008, at 9:03 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > If this is so important to you - contribute to the project and/or hire > a FreeBSD developer. I've got a strange problem with jails and I've been trying to hire a freebsd developer, but I can't seem to get anyone to a) call me back. I got one response on "try doing xxx" which involved kernel hacking and such, which is beyond what I am in a position to do. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 16:39:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57A9106567C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:39:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from outgoing01.lava.net (cake.lava.net [IPv6:2001:1888:0:1:230:48ff:fe5b:3b50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784648FC19 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:39:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing01.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC1DD013B; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:39:40 -1000 (HST) Received: by malasada.lava.net (Postfix, from userid 102) id 3D8D3153882; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:39:40 -1000 (HST) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:39:40 -1000 From: Clifton Royston To: Vivek Khera Message-ID: <20080606163939.GA3158@lava.net> Mail-Followup-To: Vivek Khera , FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:39:43 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:08:54PM -0400, Vivek Khera wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Clifton Royston wrote: > > > Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > >people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > >more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as > > I'll throw in my "+1" for running 6.3. I have it on many boxes, some > of which run gmirror and some of which have bge devices (some with > both). Never any problems. They operate things varying from Postgres > servers to DNS servers to mail servers (postfix) under pretty > consistent load pushing lots and lots of data both network and to disk. Thanks. That sounds like the kind of broad experience I need, particularly as the main group of servers are mail servers (spam filtering machines running Postfix, with some config files on NFS.) -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- cliftonr@iandicomputing.com / cliftonr@lava.net President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 16:40:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7EB106567D for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:40:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michael@quuxo.com) Received: from hudson.quuxo.net (hudson.quuxo.net [203.18.245.242]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F268FC31 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:40:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michael@quuxo.com) Received: from [192.168.1.1] (ppp121-44-14-240.lns10.syd7.internode.on.net [121.44.14.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by hudson.quuxo.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56GFl0g019543 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:45:47 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from michael@quuxo.com) From: Michael Gratton To: Vivek Khera In-Reply-To: <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-mTPtmXE7iOpWB5K7Twt6" Organization: Quuxo Software Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:15:42 +1000 Message-Id: <1212768942.6066.20.camel@tremelay> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.1.1 X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (hudson.quuxo.net [203.18.245.242]); Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:45:48 +0930 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/7386/Fri Jun 6 22:05:23 2008 on hudson.quuxo.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:40:54 -0000 --=-mTPtmXE7iOpWB5K7Twt6 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 12:08 -0400, Vivek Khera wrote: > On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Clifton Royston wrote: >=20 > > Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > > people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > > more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as >=20 > I'll throw in my "+1" for running 6.3. I have it on many boxes, some =20 > of which run gmirror and some of which have bge devices (some with =20 > both). Never any problems. They operate things varying from Postgres =20 > servers to DNS servers to mail servers (postfix) under pretty =20 > consistent load pushing lots and lots of data both network and to disk. AOL! 6.3 with gmirror is rock solid here for web, mail, dns and db. No bge here, but still, I haven't seen 6.3 glitch once. /Mike --=20 Michael Gratton =20 Quuxo Software --=-mTPtmXE7iOpWB5K7Twt6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBISWKun1mVFlYUR84RAqfDAKCCKf5uf1rTKk2hOxSmmZJZSyIYrwCgzcD+ hN69YZx2nku3/IXd2rvbku8= =4M/o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-mTPtmXE7iOpWB5K7Twt6-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 16:47:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709101065677 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:47:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.33]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C064E8FC2B for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:47:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: (qmail 1137 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2008 16:21:08 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 6 Jun 2008 16:21:08 -0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20080606.182108.74659907.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: koitsu@FreeBSD.org From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20080606090452.GA38593@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <2a41acea0805030014x244e1311v945e23266961193d@mail.gmail.com> <4848EC14.8060700@micom.mng.net> <20080606090452.GA38593@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MFC of em/igb drivers X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:47:51 -0000 > Have you tried disabling speed and duplex negotiation and explicitly > stating speed and duplex like so? > > ifconfig_em0="... media 1000baseTX mediaopt full-duplex" Disagree with this piece of advice. > Cisco switches have a notorious history of not being "friendly" with > non-Cisco hardware. Forcing duplex on both ends of the link (that means > on both the host side, and the Cisco side!) usually fixes it. I might have said the same myself five years ago. But this is 2008, and we have autoneg as default on all ports (even at 100 Mbps). Our Cisco switch ports (and we have a *lot* of them) work just fine with autoneg. Note that GigE is different from FE here - autoneg is a compulsory part of the GigE standard, while it's not compulsory for FE. The only GigE ports that have needed anything else were some pre-standard GigE ports. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 17:36:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA0C106567E for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:36:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arno@heho.snv.jussieu.fr) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62138FC12 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:36:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arno@heho.snv.jussieu.fr) Received: from heho.snv.jussieu.fr (heho.snv.jussieu.fr [134.157.184.22]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.14.2/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id m56HamrG064974 ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:36:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Ids: 164 Received: from heho.snv.jussieu.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heho.snv.jussieu.fr (8.13.3/jtpda-5.2) with ESMTP id m56Halc2008854 ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:36:47 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from arno@localhost) by heho.snv.jussieu.fr (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id m56HakCZ008851; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:36:46 +0200 (MEST) (envelope-from arno) To: mi@aldan.algebra.com References: <200805081730.m48HUNjh001532@symbion.zaytman.com> From: "Arno J. Klaassen" Date: 06 Jun 2008 19:36:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200805081730.m48HUNjh001532@symbion.zaytman.com> Message-ID: Lines: 287 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.164]); Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:36:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/7387/Fri Jun 6 17:04:25 2008 on shiva.jussieu.fr X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Miltered: at jchkmail2.jussieu.fr with ID 48495991.006 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 48495991.006/134.157.184.22/heho.snv.jussieu.fr/heho.snv.jussieu.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 48495991.006 on jchkmail2.jussieu.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.015 -> S=0.015 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: [nvidia | shared irq] umass disconnects [was: panic dd-ing from a USB "disk" ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:36:56 -0000 Mikhail Teterin writes: > Hello! > > I had some troubles mounting the filesystem from: > > da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 > da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI-2 device > da0: 1.000MB/s transfers > da0: 3886MB (7959552 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 495C) > > and decided to just dd the entire da0 to a file, so that the camera > can be disconnected: > > dd if=/dev/da0 of=/home/mi/da0.dd bs=16384 > > The dd-ing was proceeding slowly (600Kb/s) and I stopped watching it... > > The machine paniced about an hour later (at 0:52). The timestamp on > /home/mi/da0.dd was 23:45, it was only about 500Mb in size. > > The stack is below. Would anybody like to look at the complete > vmcore dump? > > The hardware is a quad Opteron with 8Gb RAM. Only 4Gb of these are > used, because it runs 7.x/i386 from April 5th (without PAE) -- for > the sake of NVidia's card. I can easily produce a similar panic on a dual Opteron 185 with 3G of RAM and running 7-stable-amd64 on a (cheap) nvidia-based MB. It runs gmirror on atapci1 and I attach a geli-encrypted disk via usb. Both share irq 23. Under heavy load ("periodic security" is enough ) it panics after having disconnected umass0 ( kgdb trace below ) : Unread portion of the kernel message buffer: umass0: at uhub1 port 1 (addr 2) disconnected (da1:umass-sim0:0:0:0): lost device (pass1:umass-sim0:0:0:0): lost device (pass1:umass-sim0:0:0:0): removing device entry I'd be happy to provide more info. Best, Arno > Please, advise. Thanks! > > -mi > > [GDB will not be able to debug user-mode threads: /usr/lib/libthread_db.so: Undefined symbol "ps_pglobal_lookup"] > GNU gdb 6.1.1 [FreeBSD] > Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc. > GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are > welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. > Type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. > This GDB was configured as "i386-marcel-freebsd". > There is no member named pathname. > Reading symbols from /boot/modules/nvidia.ko...done. > Loaded symbols for /boot/modules/nvidia.ko > Reading symbols from /opt/modules/fuse.ko...done. > Loaded symbols for /opt/modules/fuse.ko > > Unread portion of the kernel message buffer: > umass0: at uhub0 port 6 (addr 2) disconnected > (da0:umass-sim0:0:0:0): lost device > > > Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > cpuid = 3; apic id = 03 > fault virtual address = 0x0 > fault code = supervisor write, page not present > instruction pointer = 0x20:0xc0449702 > stack pointer = 0x28:0xeb74b8bc > frame pointer = 0x28:0xeb74b8dc > code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 > processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 > current process = 13989 (dd) > trap number = 12 > panic: page fault > cpuid = 3 > Uptime: 12d10h52m16s > (da0:dead_sim0:0:0:0): Synchronize cache failed, status == 0x34, scsi status == 0xc8 > Physical memory: 3054 MB > Dumping 334 MB: (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) (CTRL-C to abort) 319 303 287 271 255 239 223 207 191 175 159 143 127 111 95 79 63 47 31 15 > > #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 > 195 __asm __volatile("movl %%fs:0,%0" : "=r" (td)); > (kgdb) #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:195 > #1 0xc0599f7b in boot (howto=260) at /ibm/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:418 > #2 0xc059a449 in panic (fmt=0x104
) > at /ibm/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:572 > #3 0xc077f60d in trap_fatal (frame=0xeb74b87c, eva=40) > at /ibm/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c:899 > #4 0xc077f9aa in trap_pfault (frame=0xeb74b87c, usermode=0, eva=0) > at /ibm/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c:812 > #5 0xc078035c in trap (frame=0xeb74b87c) at /ibm/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c:490 > #6 0xc076637b in calltrap () at /ibm/src/sys/i386/i386/exception.s:139 > #7 0xc0449702 in xpt_done (done_ccb=0xc690a000) > at /ibm/src/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:4856 > #8 0xc044b15c in xpt_action (start_ccb=0xc690a000) > at /ibm/src/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:3057 > #9 0xc04462b6 in cam_periph_runccb (ccb=0xc690a000, error_routine=0, > camflags=CAM_FLAG_NONE, sense_flags=1, ds=0xc6aea690) > at /ibm/src/sys/cam/cam_periph.c:878 > #10 0xc0453aa1 in daclose (dp=0xcc862600) > at /ibm/src/sys/cam/scsi/scsi_da.c:714 > #11 0xc0549b2e in g_disk_access (pp=0xc7e12680, r=0, w=0, e=Variable "e" is not available.) > at /ibm/src/sys/geom/geom_disk.c:152 > #12 0xc054ec4d in g_access (cp=0xc8a90380, dcr=-1, dcw=0, dce=0) > at /ibm/src/sys/geom/geom_subr.c:748 > #13 0xc05490f3 in g_dev_close (dev=0xca1dad00, flags=Variable "flags" is not available.) > at /ibm/src/sys/geom/geom_dev.c:217 > #14 0xc0531f69 in devfs_close (ap=0xeb74ba94) > at /ibm/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_vnops.c:372 > #15 0xc0623e86 in vn_close (vp=0xcc8c1dd0, flags=1, file_cred=0xca36e700, > td=0xc8552000) at vnode_if.h:228 > #16 0xc0623f37 in vn_closefile (fp=0xca19bdc8, td=0xc8552000) > at /ibm/src/sys/kern/vfs_vnops.c:868 > #17 0xc0568b14 in fdrop (fp=0xca19bdc8, td=0xc8552000) at file.h:297 > #18 0xc056a3c2 in closef (fp=0xca19bdc8, td=0xc8552000) > at /ibm/src/sys/kern/kern_descrip.c:1958 > #19 0xc056b371 in fdfree (td=0xc8552000) > at /ibm/src/sys/kern/kern_descrip.c:1668 > #20 0xc05775fa in exit1 (td=0xc8552000, rv=256) > at /ibm/src/sys/kern/kern_exit.c:272 > #21 0xc0578e1d in sys_exit (td=Could not find the frame base for "sys_exit". > ) at /ibm/src/sys/kern/kern_exit.c:98 > #22 0xc077fb90 in syscall (frame=0xeb74bd38) > at /ibm/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c:1035 > #23 0xc07663e0 in Xint0x80_syscall () at /ibm/src/sys/i386/i386/exception.s:196 > #24 0x00000033 in ?? () > Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?) > (kgdb) Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode cpuid = 1; apic id = 01 fault virtual address = 0x0 fault code = supervisor write data, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xffffffff80162c11 stack pointer = 0x10:0xffffffffabe679c0 frame pointer = 0x10:0xffffff00030f6c00 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, long 1, def32 0, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 2 (g_event) trap number = 12 panic: page fault cpuid = 1 Uptime: 2d12h40m24s (da1:dead_sim0:0:0:0): Synchronize cache failed, status == 0x34, scsi status == 0x0 Physical memory: 2807 MB Dumping 460 MB: 445 429 413 397 381 365 349 333 317 301 285 269 253 237 221 205 189 173 157 141 125 109 93 77 61 45 29 13 Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/umass.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/umass.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/umass.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/usb.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/usb.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/usb.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/sym.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/sym.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/sym.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/iicsmb.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/iicsmb.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/iicsmb.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/iicbus.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/iicbus.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/iicbus.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/smbus.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/smbus.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/smbus.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/smb.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/smb.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/smb.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/nfsmb.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/nfsmb.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/nfsmb.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/k8temp.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/k8temp.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/k8temp.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/if_tap.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/if_tap.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/if_tap.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/if_nfe.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/if_nfe.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/if_nfe.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/geom_mirror.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/geom_mirror.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/geom_mirror.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/geom_raid5.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/geom_raid5.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/geom_raid5.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/geom_eli.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/geom_eli.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/geom_eli.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/crypto.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/crypto.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/crypto.ko Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/zlib.ko...Reading symbols from /boot/kernel/zlib.ko.symbols...done. done. Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel/zlib.ko #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:194 194 pcpu.h: No such file or directory. in pcpu.h (kgdb) where #0 doadump () at pcpu.h:194 #1 0x0000000000000004 in ?? () #2 0xffffffff80289290 in boot (howto=260) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:418 #3 0xffffffff802896ad in panic (fmt=0x104
) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:572 #4 0xffffffff80494154 in trap_fatal (frame=0xffffff00010e4000, eva=18446742974215571664) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/amd64/amd64/trap.c:724 #5 0xffffffff80494525 in trap_pfault (frame=0xffffffffabe67910, usermode=0) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/amd64/amd64/trap.c:641 #6 0xffffffff80494ecb in trap (frame=0xffffffffabe67910) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/amd64/amd64/trap.c:410 #7 0xffffffff8047ab1e in calltrap () at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/amd64/amd64/exception.S:169 #8 0xffffffff80162c11 in xpt_done (done_ccb=0xffffff00030f6c00) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/cam/cam_xpt.c:4856 #9 0xffffffff8015f775 in cam_periph_runccb (ccb=0xffffff00030f6c00, error_routine=0, camflags=CAM_FLAG_NONE, sense_flags=1, ds=0xffffff00031765a0) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/cam/cam_periph.c:878 #10 0xffffffff80175e7f in daclose (dp=Variable "dp" is not available. ) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/cam/scsi/scsi_da.c:714 #11 0xffffffff8023a182 in g_disk_access (pp=0xffffff0003c64600, r=Variable "r" is not available. ) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/geom/geom_disk.c:152 #12 0xffffffff8023ed53 in g_access (cp=0xffffff0003fb5a00, dcr=-1, dcw=-1, dce=-2) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/geom/geom_subr.c:748 #13 0xffffffff8023ed53 in g_access (cp=0xffffff004c625680, dcr=-1, dcw=-1, dce=-1) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/geom/geom_subr.c:748 #14 0xffffffff8023f297 in g_wither_geom_close (gp=0xffffff0003e16000, error=6) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/geom/geom_subr.c:351 #15 0xffffffffaf73f1fb in g_eli_destroy () from /boot/kernel/geom_eli.ko #16 0xffffffff8023b47e in g_run_events () at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/geom/geom_event.c:163 #17 0xffffffff8023c8f5 in g_event_procbody () at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/geom/geom_kern.c:141 #18 0xffffffff802686f2 in fork_exit ( callout=0xffffffff8023c8a0 , arg=0x0, frame=0xffffffffabe67c80) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/kern/kern_fork.c:783 #19 0xffffffff8047aeee in fork_trampoline () at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/amd64/amd64/exception.S:415 #20 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #21 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #22 0x0000000000000001 in ?? () #23 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #24 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #25 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #26 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #27 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #28 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #29 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #30 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #31 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #32 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #33 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #34 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #35 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #36 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #37 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #38 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #39 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #40 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #41 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #42 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #43 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #44 0x000000000092b000 in ?? () #45 0xffffffff806b6c80 in tdg_maxid () #46 0xffffffff806c3480 in tdq_cpu () #47 0xffffffff806c3480 in tdq_cpu () #48 0xffffff00010e4000 in ?? () #49 0x000000000000000b in ?? () #50 0xffffffffabe671a8 in ?? () #51 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () #52 0xffffffff802a9854 in sched_switch (td=0xffffffff8023c8a0, newtd=0x0, flags=0) at /raid1/bsd/src7/sys/kern/sched_ule.c:1897 From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 19:40:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8B31065670 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:40:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: from blah.sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [217.18.249.150]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3018A8FC27 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:40:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com) Received: by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 70F241B10EA4; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:40:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on malcho.cmotd.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 Received: from [10.1.1.2] (unknown [192.168.25.10]) by blah.sun-fish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05CA1B10CAA for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:40:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4849928F.6060502@moneybookers.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:39:59 +0300 From: Stefan Lambrev User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.93, clamav-milter version 0.93 on blah.cmotd.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: Java binaries for FreeBSD 7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:40:07 -0000 Greetings, From http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/ "We are working on providing Java 1.6 support for FreeBSD 6.3 and 7.0. The binaries for 7.0 will be available by June 1." Any news? :) Where I can read more? P.S. I understand that this is not the mailing list to ask, but I can't find better. -- Best Wishes, Stefan Lambrev ICQ# 24134177 From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 19:46:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560C0106567A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce@alaska.net) Received: from iris.acsalaska.net (iris.acsalaska.net [209.112.173.229]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D4D8FC19 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce@alaska.net) Received: from [10.0.102.101] (209-112-156-36-adslb0fh.acsalaska.net [209.112.156.36]) by iris.acsalaska.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m56JY1ED097080 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:34:01 -0800 (AKDT) (envelope-from royce@alaska.net) Message-ID: <48499129.4090704@alaska.net> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:34:01 -0800 From: Royce Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.8.1.14) Gecko/20080421 Thunderbird/2.0.0.14 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> <1212768942.6066.20.camel@tremelay> In-Reply-To: <1212768942.6066.20.camel@tremelay> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: url=http://www.tycho.org/royce/royce@alaska.net.asc X-Face: ">19[ShfDD9'g", GrH$'v:=qBVZdg.kXSBR6*ZC$am:D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ACS-Spam-Status: no X-ACS-Scanned-By: MD 2.63; SA 3.2.4; spamdefang 1.122 Subject: 6.3 stability and freebsd-update (was: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:46:12 -0000 >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Clifton Royston wrote: >> >>> Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from >>> people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average >>> more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as 6.3 has been stable for me. I've been running since April on DL380 G2, Dell 2450, Supermicro 5015M-MF and 5015T-PR, and some older Intel 815E boards. My bge(4) NICs are detected as Broadcom BCM5703 A2 and BCM5704 A2, with no issues. Running gmirror with no issues. Someone mentioned freebsd-update earlier in the thread. I'd like to take a moment to plug it, since making it easy to move to 6.3 seems topical. I got a little long-winded, so here's an executive summary: freebsd-update is good; business case for more hardware; updating in 'hybrid' mode with custom kernels and stock userland; using kernel config 'includes' to save additional effort. I prefer freebsd-update over the buildworld and then installworld-over-NFS routine, centralized rsyncs, or anything else. I used freebsd-update to uplift the systems above, and also just bumped sixteen more from 6.2. Worked like a charm. Its 'rollback' option is also very handy, for obvious reasons. Based on how much time I save with freebsd-update, I can make a business case for buying another box for a farm, rather than rolling my own kernels and eking out xx% of additional performance. Once ULE gets into 7.x-RELEASE, I probably won't even have to do that. For systems that require a custom kernel, we still patch everything else with freebsd-update. When freebsd-update detects the non-stock kernel, it warns you to install a kernel from the target release. If that scares you, you can swap in a stock kernel from the current release (saved off, or from the release media or FTP) and then upgrade. When finished, save off the new stock kernel for future upgrades, and then rebuild your custom kernel. (Anybody else doing anything like this, or something better?) I also recommend starting your kernel config with 'include SMP' (or GENERIC or PAE or whatever). If you use nocpu, nooptions, nomakeoptions, nodevice etc. to turn off what you don't need, your config is reduced to a 'diff' of sorts against the stock config. Our kernel configs are now ~17 lines, can be grokked at a glance, and should change little from release to release. Here's a stub of an example that uses most of the knobs: include SMP # Inherit SMP (which inherits GENERIC). nocpu I486_CPU # Disable old CPU support; see tuning(7). nocpu I586_CPU ident SMP-GENERIC_CUSTOM_FOO # Inherit ident, custom name. nomakeoption DEBUG # Do not build with gdb(1) debug symbols. nooptions SCHED_4BSD # Do not use the 4BSD scheduler; options SCHED_ULE # use ULE schedule instead. # ALTQ support options ALTQ options ALTQ_CBQ # Class Bases Queuing (CBQ) options ALTQ_RED # Random Early Detection (RED) options ALTQ_RIO # RED In/Out options ALTQ_HFSC # Hierarchical Packet Scheduler (HFSC) options ALTQ_PRIQ # Priority Queuing (PRIQ) options ALTQ_NOPCC # Required for SMP build # Devices for pf device pf # PF device pflog # pflog device pfsync # pfsync Use 'nodevice' to turn off devices worth leaving out, but only as many as are worth the effort. If you haven't already considered freebsd-update, either for the whole system or just userland, I highly recommend it. These days, the gain has to be pretty significant for me to want to go back to making world. For our PXE installs using custom install.cfg, we can go from bare metal to a fully patched vanilla system in four minutes on modern hardware! The novelty of that still hasn't worn off. :-) It's more efficient (and probably safer?) to use freebsd-update against a binary install rather than against local compilation. And if you're bumping major versions (6.x -> 7.x), you still have to rebuild your ports. But try it in your lab or for your next deployment. You can easily convert a freebsd-updated system to a makeworld system, if necessary. And thanks again, Colin! Royce -- Royce D. Williams - http://royce.ws/ Inspiration exists, but it has to find us working. - Pablo Picasso From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 19:52:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBCD106564A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:52:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@lor.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from lor.one-eyed-alien.net (cl-162.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:a1::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643828FC3C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:52:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@lor.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from lor.one-eyed-alien.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lor.one-eyed-alien.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m56JqVBb003055; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:52:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from brooks@lor.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: (from brooks@localhost) by lor.one-eyed-alien.net (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m56JqVen003054; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:52:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from brooks) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:52:31 -0500 From: Brooks Davis To: Royce Williams Message-ID: <20080606195231.GB2438@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> <1212768942.6066.20.camel@tremelay> <48499129.4090704@alaska.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48499129.4090704@alaska.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (lor.one-eyed-alien.net [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: 6.3 stability and freebsd-update (was: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:52:27 -0000 --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 11:34:01AM -0800, Royce Williams wrote: > >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Clifton Royston wrote: > >> > >>> Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > >>> people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > >>> more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as >=20 > 6.3 has been stable for me. I've been running since April on DL380 > G2, Dell 2450, Supermicro 5015M-MF and 5015T-PR, and some older Intel > 815E boards. My bge(4) NICs are detected as Broadcom BCM5703 A2 and > BCM5704 A2, with no issues. Running gmirror with no issues. >=20 > Someone mentioned freebsd-update earlier in the thread. I'd like to > take a moment to plug it, since making it easy to move to 6.3 seems > topical. I got a little long-winded, so here's an executive summary: >=20 > freebsd-update is good; business case for more hardware; updating in > 'hybrid' mode with custom kernels and stock userland; using kernel > config 'includes' to save additional effort. >=20 >=20 > I prefer freebsd-update over the buildworld and then > installworld-over-NFS routine, centralized rsyncs, or anything else. > I used freebsd-update to uplift the systems above, and also just > bumped sixteen more from 6.2. Worked like a charm. Its 'rollback' > option is also very handy, for obvious reasons. >=20 > Based on how much time I save with freebsd-update, I can make a > business case for buying another box for a farm, rather than rolling > my own kernels and eking out xx% of additional performance. Once ULE > gets into 7.x-RELEASE, I probably won't even have to do that. >=20 > For systems that require a custom kernel, we still patch everything > else with freebsd-update. When freebsd-update detects the non-stock > kernel, it warns you to install a kernel from the target release. If > that scares you, you can swap in a stock kernel from the current > release (saved off, or from the release media or FTP) and then > upgrade. When finished, save off the new stock kernel for future > upgrades, and then rebuild your custom kernel. (Anybody else doing > anything like this, or something better?) Alternativly, you can edit freebsd-update.conf and tell it to not update yo= ur kernel on those machines. You can also exclude particular files. We use this to keep from updating libc directly on some machines where we're using modified RPC timings to improve NIS performance in the face of occataionl packet loss. -- Brooks > GENERIC or PAE or whatever). If you use nocpu, nooptions, > nomakeoptions, nodevice etc. to turn off what you don't need, your > config is reduced to a 'diff' of sorts against the stock config. Our > kernel configs are now ~17 lines, can be grokked at a glance, and > should change little from release to release. Here's a stub of an > example that uses most of the knobs: >=20 > include SMP # Inherit SMP (which inherits GENERIC). >=20 > nocpu I486_CPU # Disable old CPU support; see tuning(7). > nocpu I586_CPU > ident SMP-GENERIC_CUSTOM_FOO # Inherit ident, custom name. >=20 > nomakeoption DEBUG # Do not build with gdb(1) debug symbols. >=20 > nooptions SCHED_4BSD # Do not use the 4BSD scheduler; > options SCHED_ULE # use ULE schedule instead. >=20 > # ALTQ support > options ALTQ > options ALTQ_CBQ # Class Bases Queuing (CBQ) > options ALTQ_RED # Random Early Detection (RED) > options ALTQ_RIO # RED In/Out > options ALTQ_HFSC # Hierarchical Packet Scheduler (HFSC) > options ALTQ_PRIQ # Priority Queuing (PRIQ) > options ALTQ_NOPCC # Required for SMP build >=20 > # Devices for pf > device pf # PF > device pflog # pflog > device pfsync # pfsync >=20 >=20 > Use 'nodevice' to turn off devices worth leaving out, but only as many > as are worth the effort. >=20 > If you haven't already considered freebsd-update, either for the whole > system or just userland, I highly recommend it. These days, the gain > has to be pretty significant for me to want to go back to making > world. For our PXE installs using custom install.cfg, we can go from > bare metal to a fully patched vanilla system in four minutes on modern > hardware! The novelty of that still hasn't worn off. :-) >=20 > It's more efficient (and probably safer?) to use freebsd-update > against a binary install rather than against local compilation. And > if you're bumping major versions (6.x -> 7.x), you still have to > rebuild your ports. But try it in your lab or for your next > deployment. You can easily convert a freebsd-updated system to a > makeworld system, if necessary. >=20 > And thanks again, Colin! >=20 > Royce >=20 > --=20 > Royce D. Williams - http://royce.ws/ > Inspiration exists, but it has to find us working. - Pablo Picasso > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFISZV+XY6L6fI4GtQRAvRGAKCgXnmIz5+YGHaC4loLe2GiJYw6QQCghMlF b4SKcYZfLCe5ebfuKQrm/RI= =qlx3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 20:04:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837E9106564A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:04:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from spomerg@cwu.EDU) Received: from scylla.cts.cwu.edu (scylla.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.67.151]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCEA8FC1C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:04:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from spomerg@cwu.EDU) Received: from CONVERSION-CWU-DAEMON.SCYLLA.CTS.CWU.EDU by SCYLLA.CTS.CWU.EDU (PMDF V6.4-beta #31513) id <01MVO4JU4GQ8000055@SCYLLA.CTS.CWU.EDU> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.cwu.edu (hermes.cwu.edu [172.16.21.28]) by SCYLLA.CTS.CWU.EDU (PMDF V6.4-beta #31513) with ESMTP id <01MVO4JTKKXE000131@SCYLLA.CTS.CWU.EDU> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwugate1-MTA by hermes.cwu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:37:58 -0700 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:37:51 -0700 From: Gavin Spomer To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-id: <4849218F0200009000019B78@hermes.cwu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.2 HP Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Subject: 6.2-STABLE => 7.0-STABLE Upgrade root partition more full X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:04:01 -0000 I successfully did my first FreeBSD upgrade yesterday after looking at the = manual, and cross referencing with Googling and getting help from our = network engineer here at CWU. Before the upgrade, running df showed: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/da0s1a 507630 77662 389358 17% / devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev /dev/da0s1e 507630 588 466432 0% /tmp /dev/da0s1f 268217320 4866120 241893816 2% /usr /dev/da0s1d 4298926 162066 3792946 4% /var Now it shows: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/da0s1a 507630 184834 282186 40% / devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev /dev/da0s1e 507630 426 466594 0% /tmp /dev/da0s1f 268217320 5514844 241245092 2% /usr /dev/da0s1d 4298926 187570 3767442 5% /var Notice the the increase in the root partition. Should I have made this = partition bigger when I first installed? Is there any cleaning up I can do = after version upgrades? I would've thought /usr would be the one that grew = more, but then again my /usr partition is fairly sizeable. Does 7.0 just = take up a lot more of the root partition than 6.2? - Gavin From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 20:50:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EF8106564A for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:50:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists-fbsdstable@shadypond.com) Received: from mx-outbound01.easydns.com (mailout1.easydns.com [205.210.42.66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE7E8FC12 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:50:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists-fbsdstable@shadypond.com) Received: from guardian.shadypond.com (69-12-173-117.static.humboldt1.com [69.12.173.117]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx-outbound01.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23CB481B3 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slider.shadypond.com (slider.shadypond.com [192.168.1.11]) by guardian.shadypond.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26CC219BC4 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:50:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Pollywog To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:47:59 +0000 References: <4849928F.6060502@moneybookers.com> In-Reply-To: <4849928F.6060502@moneybookers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806062048.03859.lists-fbsdstable@shadypond.com> Subject: Re: Java binaries for FreeBSD 7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:50:58 -0000 On Friday 06 June 2008 19:39:59 Stefan Lambrev wrote: > Greetings, > > From http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/ > "We are working on providing Java 1.6 support for FreeBSD 6.3 and 7.0. > The binaries for 7.0 will be available by June 1." > > Any news? :) Where I can read more? > > P.S. I understand that this is not the mailing list to ask, but I can't > find better. Perhaps here http://www.freebsd.org/java/ From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 20:56:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA50F106567C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:56:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from outgoing01.lava.net (cake.lava.net [IPv6:2001:1888:0:1:230:48ff:fe5b:3b50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B778FC12 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:56:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cliftonr@lava.net) Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing01.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65179D0580; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:56:25 -1000 (HST) Received: by malasada.lava.net (Postfix, from userid 102) id E4A1C153882; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:56:24 -1000 (HST) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:56:24 -1000 From: Clifton Royston To: Gavin Spomer Message-ID: <20080606205623.GA17905@lava.net> Mail-Followup-To: Gavin Spomer , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <4849218F0200009000019B78@hermes.cwu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4849218F0200009000019B78@hermes.cwu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 6.2-STABLE => 7.0-STABLE Upgrade root partition more full X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:56:36 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 11:37:51AM -0700, Gavin Spomer wrote: > I successfully did my first FreeBSD upgrade yesterday after looking at the manual, and cross referencing with Googling and getting help from our network engineer here at CWU. Before the upgrade, running df showed: > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/da0s1a 507630 77662 389358 17% / > devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev > /dev/da0s1e 507630 588 466432 0% /tmp > /dev/da0s1f 268217320 4866120 241893816 2% /usr > /dev/da0s1d 4298926 162066 3792946 4% /var > > Now it shows: > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/da0s1a 507630 184834 282186 40% / > devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev > /dev/da0s1e 507630 426 466594 0% /tmp > /dev/da0s1f 268217320 5514844 241245092 2% /usr > /dev/da0s1d 4298926 187570 3767442 5% /var > > Notice the the increase in the root partition. Should I have made > this partition bigger when I first installed? Is there any cleaning > up I can do after version upgrades? I would've thought /usr would be > the one that grew more, but then again my /usr partition is fairly > sizeable. Does 7.0 just take up a lot more of the root partition than > 6.2? Yes, it just does. It should not keep expanding, though. IMHO, you should still be fine as long as you've got /tmp, /usr/, /var, and the home directories residing on other partitions. If you're using /home under / for home directories, you might want to move it to /usr/home and symlink /home to it. -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- cliftonr@iandicomputing.com / cliftonr@lava.net President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 21:37:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4745F106566C for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:37:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from skip@menantico.com) Received: from vms173003pub.verizon.net (vms173003pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9541E8FC1B for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:37:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from skip@menantico.com) Received: from mx.menantico.com ([71.168.197.98]) by vms173003.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K2200D6V6KZXRBX@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:36:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:39:14 -0400 From: Skip Ford In-reply-to: <4849218F0200009000019B78@hermes.cwu.edu> To: Gavin Spomer Message-id: <20080606203914.GA858@menantico.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline References: <4849218F0200009000019B78@hermes.cwu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 6.2-STABLE => 7.0-STABLE Upgrade root partition more full X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:37:08 -0000 Gavin Spomer wrote: > I successfully did my first FreeBSD upgrade yesterday after looking at the manual, and cross referencing with Googling and getting help from our network engineer here at CWU. Before the upgrade, running df showed: > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/da0s1a 507630 77662 389358 17% / > devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev > /dev/da0s1e 507630 588 466432 0% /tmp > /dev/da0s1f 268217320 4866120 241893816 2% /usr > /dev/da0s1d 4298926 162066 3792946 4% /var > > Now it shows: > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/da0s1a 507630 184834 282186 40% / > devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev > /dev/da0s1e 507630 426 466594 0% /tmp > /dev/da0s1f 268217320 5514844 241245092 2% /usr > /dev/da0s1d 4298926 187570 3767442 5% /var > > Notice the the increase in the root partition. Should I have made this partition bigger when I first installed? Is there any cleaning up I can do after version upgrades? I would've thought /usr would be the one that grew more, but then again my /usr partition is fairly sizeable. Does 7.0 just take up a lot more of the root partition than 6.2? 7.0 installs debugging symbols for the kernel and modules by default. You can avoid that by defining INSTALL_NODEBUG during installkernel. If already installed, you can delete the symbol files without causing problems as long as you don't need to debug the kernel. Also, when you install a new kernel, the old kernel is saved as kernel.old so you now have 2 kernels in /boot instead of one. If you're positive the new kernel works fine, the old kernel can be removed as that's only used to recover from a new kernel with problems. But, your space really isn't that close to the limit, IMO. You appear to have enough space to have an old and new kernel installed both with symbols, so I'd leave it as is in case you need to debug something or boot the old kernel. You can always take care of it later if you're about to run out of space. Why do today what you can put off 'til tomorrow? Also, consider reading UPDATING before every upgrade. The entry for 20060118 covers this issue. -- Skip From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 21:43:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0198F1065677 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:43:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ericlin@tamama.org) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFDA8FC15 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:43:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ericlin@tamama.org) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1646673rvf.43 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.248.17 with SMTP id v17mr396919rvh.9.1212788610655; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.69.19 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47713ee10806061443v3e44576am2facb75df031f47e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:43:30 +0800 From: "Lin Jui-Nan Eric" To: stable@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Subject: TMPFS: File System is Full X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:43:31 -0000 Hi, I found when we exhaust memory, tmpfs will not be able to write anything into it and cannot mount it. I use ZFS and TMPFS at the same time. Florence# cd /usr/src && make buildworld > /dev/null & Florence# uname -a FreeBSD Florence.tamama.org 7.0-RELEASE-p1 FreeBSD 7.0-RELEASE-p1 #5: Mon May 5 00:36:32 CST 2008 root@Florence.tamama.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/KERNEL amd64 Florence# mount -t tmpfs -o rw,size=1024000 tmpfs /tmp/tmpfs mount: tmpfs : No space left on device first 5 lines of top: last pid: 26893; load averages: 1.50, 1.58, 1.48 up 12+01:43:49 05:40:51 146 processes: 2 running, 144 sleeping CPU states: % user, % nice, % system, % interrupt, % idle Mem: 406M Active, 574M Inact, 1775M Wired, 83M Cache, 214M Buf, 126M Free Swap: 1024M Total, 1024M Free I think there should be a "lower bound" size limit. Does TMPFS use kernel-space memory? From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 23:03:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9101065673; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [91.103.162.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DCD8FC18; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5E419E023; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:03:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3BE5019E019; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:03:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4849C258.6090003@quip.cz> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:03:52 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Percival References: <473B5D10.1070109@janh.de> <473BD54F.9050808@freebsd.org> <473C1FD1.70001@janh.de> <473DA6B5.10107@freebsd.org> <473EF438.5090004@janh.de> <473F0939.9050800@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <473F0939.9050800@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: stable-list freebsd Subject: Re: freebsd-update 6.2-R -> 6.3-B1 rollback failed X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:03:38 -0000 Colin Percival wrote: > Jan Henrik Sylvester wrote: > >>>In short, as long as you don't build a custom kernel but call it >>>"GENERIC" or >>>"SMP", FreeBSD Update should automatically DTRT. >> >>That is exactly my question. On 6.2-RELEASE, I sometimes used a modified >>ld-elf.so.1 or a single patched module without recompiling the kernel. >>What does using freebsd-update (accidentally or deliberately) do in that >>case? By accident, I discovered that it does not always fail. Does it >>skip the modified files, overwrite them with new versions, or overwrite >>them with an unpredictable bdiff merge that is likely garbage? > > > Depending on the UpdateIfUnmodified option in freebsd-update.conf, it will > either update files to "clean" new versions or print a warning message and > not touch them. > > There's also an IgnorePaths directive which you can use to tell FreeBSD > Update not to touch some files (even if they haven't been modified locally). > > FreeBSD Update will never produce mangled files as a result of applying a > bsdiff patch to the wrong file -- it checks file hashes before and after > applying patches and gracefully falls back to downloading complete files > if it can't generate a file via patching. Is it possible to configure freebsd-update to not remove old kernel directory and just rename it to kernel.old or something else? Two times I end up with unbootable machine (upgraded from 6.3 to 7.0 - 7.x version kernel always hangs on this machine, even with CD boot) and then I must use bootable CD / flashdisk with old 6.x kernel to be able to run freebsd-update rollback. It will be useful if one can choose to leave old kernel in boot directory to be able to boot it if something goes wrong. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 02:54:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D70F106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 02:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsd.org) Received: from aslan.scsiguy.com (www.scsiguy.com [70.89.174.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB398FC14 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 02:54:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.16.106] (c-75-71-72-123.hsd1.co.comcast.net [75.71.72.123]) (authenticated bits=0) by aslan.scsiguy.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m572HBrq055739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:17:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from deb@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4849EF89.20909@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:16:41 -0600 From: Deb Goodkin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stefan.lambrev@moneybookers.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: board@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Java Status X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:54:04 -0000 Dear Stefan, I'm responding to your inquiry about the Java binaries. I just updated our website with the current status. We have completed the certification testing of Java 1.6 on FreeBSD 7. We are now waiting for approval from Sun. We anticipate it to take another two weeks. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Sincerely, Deb Goodkin Director of Operations The FreeBSD Foundation From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 03:18:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E313106566C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:18:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com) Received: from mail.stovebolt.com (mail.stovebolt.com [66.221.101.249]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4438FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:18:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com) Received: from [192.168.2.102] (cpe-24-175-90-48.tx.res.rr.com [24.175.90.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.stovebolt.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E72EC11438F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 22:02:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:02:18 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080606115349.452eea4b.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <1212684781.10665.81.camel@localhost> <8A3638B8BF777C9DF4AB354A@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080606115349.452eea4b.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) X-Munged-Reply-To: To reply - figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="==========1F4510CD20D46A1CF9D0==========" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 03:18:14 -0000 --==========1F4510CD20D46A1CF9D0========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --On June 6, 2008 11:53:49 AM +0200 Manfred Usselmann=20 wrote: > > What you are saying sounds like a contradiction to me. On one side it > is just a hobby site and generates no income and on the other hand it > is a critical server with millions of hits and the box can't even go > down for a short time. > > What happens in case lets say your harddisk crashes? Something which is > not an exactly rare case... > Actually, that happened to us a couple of years ago, on the old server=20 while it still the only server, and I was on vacation 1600 miles away. We = ended up having to pay the hosting company to fix the hardware problem and = reinstall FreeBSD (which they unfortunately did a lousy job of), and then=20 I rebuilt the server and restored it to service over a dialup account=20 while on vacation. Many of our users are retired old guys who can barely figure out how to=20 use a computer. When the site goes down, some of them claim to go into=20 withdrawal. The total downtime for that incident was about two days, and=20 they "suffered" greatly. > If the users are not paying for the service they should be able to > accept a downtime, may it be scheduled or even completely unexpected. > Or pay / donate for a more reliable service (Redundant server as hot > standby / testbed etc.). > Actually, it was the owners who had to be convinced to accept donations=20 from the users, who were all too willing to help. The new server was=20 purchased with those donations. Maybe some day we *will* be able to=20 afford redundancy. Paul Schmehl If it isn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. --==========1F4510CD20D46A1CF9D0==========-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 04:37:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE871065679 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:37:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com) Received: from mail.stovebolt.com (mail.stovebolt.com [66.221.101.249]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3BF8FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 04:37:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com) Received: from [192.168.2.102] (cpe-24-175-90-48.tx.res.rr.com [24.175.90.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.stovebolt.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9084611438F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:37:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:37:29 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> In-Reply-To: <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) X-Munged-Reply-To: To reply - figure it out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="==========34D007FB25C9E2EAFF21==========" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Paul Schmehl List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:37:31 -0000 --==========34D007FB25C9E2EAFF21========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --On June 6, 2008 3:08:25 PM +0200 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav = wrote: > Paul Schmehl writes: >> [...] I reacted in anger because I felt the OP was being savagely >> attacked rather than being responded to with professionalism. Later >> in the thread some folks got around to asking which PRs he was >> referring to, but that was after attacking him for having the temerity >> to suggest that perhaps 6.2 shouldn't be EOL. [...] I don't recall >> him ever refusing. I think after his initial post he's been forced to >> defend himself from attack from 360 degrees. [...] > > I came in late, and thus had the benefit of reading most of thread in > context rather than piece by piece over time, and in my opinion, the > above is a gross misrepresentation. I think you need to go back and > re-read the thread from the beginning. Here, let me help you. Thanks for the help. My point still stands. I think the behavior of the developers on the=20 lists should be of as high a quality as the work they do on the OS (which, = as I have stated, is first rate.) Descending to the levels that some have = (some of which you quote here) reflects poorly on the OS and its=20 developers. The fact that FreeBSD is open source does not negate the fact that its=20 users are its customers and should be treated with respect,=20 professionalism and yes, patience. And again, I am trying neither to excuse nor to defend Jo's behavior.=20 That's his gauntlet. I am saying that the fact that developers possess a=20 unique and valuable skill that is much appreciated by those of us who use=20 the product of their labor does not excuse or justify some of the boorish=20 behavior that was exhibited in this thread - regardless of how insulting=20 one may have felt Jo's responses were. Since a lot of people seem to want to pontificate without doing much of=20 anything helpful, allow me to bring this discussion back to Jo's point: That url lists 6 serious problems for bge and 3 non-critical problems,=20 some dating to more than two years ago. Two were patched, one is=20 suspended and 6 are still open; four of those critical. That url lists 1 serious problem and 3 non-critical problems with gmirror, = all of which remain open. That url refers to locking problems that cause kernel panics using the twe = driver. That url refers to a hang that renders a system unusable when using the=20 twa driver. Jo's concerns about updating to 6.3 rather than sticking with a system=20 that's working for him don't seem unreasonable to me. Do they to you? Furthermore, it seems the reaction of developers, that he wasn't being=20 specific enough are rendered moot by the urls above, which were easily=20 accessed by me, someone with little knowledge at all of two of the three=20 issues. So, rather than berating Jo for not producing PRs, wouldn't it=20 have been more professional to list the relevant PRs (just as I have done, = which took me less time than the multiple angry responses to Jo took the=20 involved developers) and ask him which of them gave him the greatest=20 concerns? What's the point of the constant demands to either produce specific=20 relevant information of STFU? Are the developers trying to impress the=20 list with their professionalism? Their patience? Their knowledge? If you're offended that I hold the developers to a higher standard than I=20 do the users, then I plead guilty as charged and believe I am correct to=20 do so. As to your specific points: >> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >> instead of assuming that it will fail. > > This is the crux of the matter - Jo is complaining about software he > hasn't even tried. There is absolutely no way anybody can help him > until he actually tries 6.3 and reports any actual bugs and regressions > he finds." Not only is this wrong, but it completely misses the point. Why should Jo = have to upgrade to find out if his servers will fail under the conditions=20 already articulated in existing, unresolved PRs that affect hardware that=20 he is presently using? That's a bit like saying, "Buy this new car. Sure = it has bugs that could easily directly affect you, but what's the chance=20 you'll encounter them? in the off chance that they do, then you can help=20 us resolve them." You reveal extreme naivette when you state this: > That is also untrue. None of these are "bugs that are affecting [Jo]", > since he hasn't tried running 6.3 at all. Trust me. From a server admin's perspective, a bug affects you if it=20 exists in hardware you use. Whether or not you're actually using the OS=20 is completely irrelevant. Upgrading to the OS would be foolhardy. Even=20 testing it on a handful of boxes will not prove that it won't fail under=20 load in production. Anyone who has done testing knows it can only=20 simulate, not duplicate, the conditions under which production servers=20 run. I personally have experienced catastrophic failures after extensive=20 testing that revealed no problems. A civic-minded, community oriented FreeBSD user might volunteer a box to=20 act as a guinea pig (and Jo has), but a server admin would be a bit nuts=20 to experiment with his infrastructure. Nor do the claims of others that=20 he ought to have a test bed or he's negligent impress me. No one but he=20 knows the constraints that prevent him from doing so. Any assumptions=20 otherwise simply reveal the biases and ignorance of those making the = claim. All of us are constrained to one degree or another by our circumstances,=20 and the assumption that someone else's circumstances mirror our own=20 reveals either an ignorance of reality or an arrogance that is unseemly. Furthermore, other users who are already running 6.3 with no reported=20 problems would not reassure me that I would not encounter the problems=20 that are clearly articulated in the PRs and which directly affect my=20 hardware and remain unresolved! Or perhaps the developers believe that Jo is simply lying when he says=20 they affect him and refuse to listen to him until he provides the proof by = upgrading and experiencing breakage? Yes, I think some perspective is needed here, but it's not only Jo who=20 needs it nor is it he who needs it the most. I've lectured enough. If anyone doesn't get the point by now further=20 explanation isn't going to help. Paul Schmehl If it isn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. --==========34D007FB25C9E2EAFF21==========-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 05:13:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59ACD1065670 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:13:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ericlin@tamama.org) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.235]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FC18FC1D for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 05:13:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ericlin@tamama.org) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1769638rvf.43 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.179.5 with SMTP id g5mr582089rvp.30.1212814112703; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.69.19 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47713ee10806062148l4a4c4550hcd8c70a422343c2a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:48:32 +0800 From: "Lin Jui-Nan Eric" To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <47713ee10806061443v3e44576am2facb75df031f47e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47713ee10806061443v3e44576am2facb75df031f47e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: TMPFS: File System is Full X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 05:13:14 -0000 Hi, I found when we exhaust memory, tmpfs will not be able to write anything into it and cannot mount it. I use ZFS and TMPFS at the same time. Florence# cd /usr/src && make buildworld > /dev/null & Florence# uname -a FreeBSD Florence.tamama.org 7.0-RELEASE-p1 FreeBSD 7.0-RELEASE-p1 #5: Mon May 5 00:36:32 CST 2008 root@Florence.tamama.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/KERNEL amd64 Florence# mount -t tmpfs -o rw,size=1024000 tmpfs /tmp/tmpfs mount: tmpfs : No space left on device first 5 lines of top: last pid: 26893; load averages: 1.50, 1.58, 1.48 up 12+01:43:49 05:40:51 146 processes: 2 running, 144 sleeping CPU states: % user, % nice, % system, % interrupt, % idle Mem: 406M Active, 574M Inact, 1775M Wired, 83M Cache, 214M Buf, 126M Free Swap: 1024M Total, 1024M Free I think there should be a "lower bound" size limit. Does TMPFS use kernel-space memory? From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 06:41:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63627106566C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 06:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300038FC19 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 06:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1784398rvf.43 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:41:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=skZRpsvkApm6Gpcxus/3azqfDKLW0JjsLH+rNf2jT1E=; b=DA/Urb2B/Gs3gvPNQ5rbNJT0thwxk/yKRj59FN7wU2kLvIaEt+ZyhWTrqTIa1yAmNW cB0ugrGgz6qnTYAY8388Yu3jFe6oGpiUOjv+WEcKSxkp7m8rq/wPV+smnCtCGV4zQ/vY kFWeb5pje/PDX+XP2c4KsySTMFe+u/LTJzMiM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=bZrV2UzY/3yx0VEkgBAmCR162PPOEeJWV3Br3vLDBDLc0xFJbPzO10DrLvajQgWF0m 0ps/PLXJr2vXhzAE1cF90RKTgsZHFpps1IquckZJMcPbnWcriXbaXAXuzutjdsOXaLiy LmUsTiQmHwNlYn6qYLY9X6MCUNWBzb5fuhUj4= Received: by 10.140.163.12 with SMTP id l12mr615918rve.137.1212820893152; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.70.11 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:41:32 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Paul Schmehl" In-Reply-To: <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> X-Google-Sender-Auth: dd3741f8d8f8dab9 Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 06:41:33 -0000 2008/6/7 Paul Schmehl : > Not only is this wrong, but it completely misses the point. Why should Jo > have to upgrade to find out if his servers will fail under the conditions > already articulated in existing, unresolved PRs that affect hardware that he > is presently using? That's a bit like saying, "Buy this new car. Sure it > has bugs that could easily directly affect you, but what's the chance you'll > encounter them? in the off chance that they do, then you can help us > resolve them." The software is Free. The car was Bought (or suggested to be bought.) Re-visit the analogy with a free car that a friend wants to give you. (Car analogies suck.) > Trust me. From a server admin's perspective, a bug affects you if it exists > in hardware you use. Whether or not you're actually using the OS is > completely irrelevant. Upgrading to the OS would be foolhardy. Even > testing it on a handful of boxes will not prove that it won't fail under > load in production. Anyone who has done testing knows it can only simulate, > not duplicate, the conditions under which production servers run. I > personally have experienced catastrophic failures after extensive testing > that revealed no problems. You're using free software. This translates to "lots of people have put in a lot of effort to provide something to the community which they can use, at no cost, if it suits them." As said before, the reason FreeBSD isn't supporting older 6.x releases anymore is because there's just no manpower to do so. > Yes, I think some perspective is needed here, but it's not only Jo who needs > it nor is it he who needs it the most. > > I've lectured enough. If anyone doesn't get the point by now further > explanation isn't going to help. I still don't think you get it. FreeBSD is a community. A community works when enough people contribute positively towards furthering the goals of the project. Jo is a user. He sounds like he is using it in some reasonably critical and money-earning roles. Jo can participate by testing stuff on test hardware, reporting back issues and working with the community. Bitching about there being no long-term support for releases isn't constructive. Some developer comments may not be constructive either, but this is a -community project-. Join the -community- and help out. It doesn't matter if running a long-term support project would be beneficial for a certain subset of the userbase, its a losing situation to cater to them unless they somehow contribute back to the community. adrian -- Adrian Chadd - adrian@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 08:56:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6673B1065674 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:56:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (skuns.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D437B8FC1E for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:56:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (root@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua [10.1.1.148]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m578u8rg059811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:56:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m578u8TS072446; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:56:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m578u7JJ072438; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:56:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:56:07 +0300 From: Kostik Belousov To: Adrian Chadd Message-ID: <20080607085607.GM94309@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qySB1iFW++5nzUxH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:56:12 -0000 --qySB1iFW++5nzUxH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 02:41:32PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: > 2008/6/7 Paul Schmehl : >=20 > > Not only is this wrong, but it completely misses the point. Why should= Jo > > have to upgrade to find out if his servers will fail under the conditio= ns > > already articulated in existing, unresolved PRs that affect hardware th= at he > > is presently using? That's a bit like saying, "Buy this new car. Sure= it > > has bugs that could easily directly affect you, but what's the chance y= ou'll > > encounter them? in the off chance that they do, then you can help us > > resolve them." >=20 > The software is Free. The car was Bought (or suggested to be bought.) >=20 > Re-visit the analogy with a free car that a friend wants to give you. > (Car analogies suck.) >=20 >=20 > > Trust me. From a server admin's perspective, a bug affects you if it e= xists > > in hardware you use. Whether or not you're actually using the OS is > > completely irrelevant. Upgrading to the OS would be foolhardy. Even > > testing it on a handful of boxes will not prove that it won't fail under > > load in production. Anyone who has done testing knows it can only simu= late, > > not duplicate, the conditions under which production servers run. I > > personally have experienced catastrophic failures after extensive testi= ng > > that revealed no problems. >=20 > You're using free software. This translates to "lots of people have > put in a lot of effort to provide something to the community which > they can use, at no cost, if it suits them." >=20 > As said before, the reason FreeBSD isn't supporting older 6.x releases > anymore is because there's just no manpower to do so. I want to correct this statement. We do support 6.x releases, but do this exactly in the form of RELENG_6 and further releases from this branch, that are in fact snapshots with more quality engineering applied then usual. A lot of the work put on the RELENG_6 is the support, i.e. bug fixes and quite conservative feature merges. Comparing us with, e.g., Solaris, we would not find a lot of difference in the support model. Althought they formally provide patches for Solaris 10 FCS, after patching you find youself running on the same kernel as the Solaris 10 u5 or later. There could be an argument of more granularity of the patches then the whole release, but inter-patch dependencies again make the difference almost non-existent, IMHO. --qySB1iFW++5nzUxH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhKTSYACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4h99QCdEVgOXhdhj20VDPewDYpqOC5u 0Q0AoIbQ1ZHnUFSDqqBJhqQFdo0W/E0X =WseT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qySB1iFW++5nzUxH-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 11:30:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F101065676 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:30:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david.buxton@zen.co.uk) Received: from fizeau.zen.co.uk (fizeau.zen.co.uk [212.23.8.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1D48FC14 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:30:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david.buxton@zen.co.uk) Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=smarthost02.mail.zen.net.uk) by fizeau.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K4wd2-0003dN-F0 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:30:36 +0000 Received: from [82.69.23.129] (helo=[192.168.0.2]) by smarthost02.mail.zen.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K4wd0-0004pj-9K for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:30:34 +0000 Message-Id: <7C5675E4-982E-4F83-B7CF-13D4DC2C5905@zen.co.uk> From: David Buxton To: FreeBSD-stable In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:30:27 +0100 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) X-Originating-Smarthost02-IP: [82.69.23.129] Subject: Re: SCSI bus reset with Adaptec 29320ALP and Eonstor RAID X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:30:38 -0000 On 27 May 2008, at 23:00, David Buxton wrote: > Hello, > > I am trying to use a 1.5TB Eonstor raid array with FreeBSD 7.0, but > I don't understand whether it is the raid or the scsi card or > something else that is causing the computer problems when accessing > the raid. My problem is that soon after recognizing the attached > disk during boot, FreeBSD appears to hang for about 10 seconds and > then says To follow up: Matthew Herzog recommended I ditch the Adaptec 29320 card. I installed an LSI 20320-R yesterday and the errors disappeared. The RAID works perfectly. The Adaptec card went straight in the bin. David. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 14:51:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443B31065673 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: from mail.ispro.net (mail.ispro.net [87.251.0.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0958FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: (qmail 26638 invoked by uid 399); 7 Jun 2008 17:48:02 +0300 Received: from dsl-tkubrasgw1-fed0de00-174.dhcp.inet.fi (HELO ?80.222.208.174?) (yurtesen@ispro.net@80.222.208.174) by mail.ispro.net with ESMTPAM; 7 Jun 2008 17:48:02 +0300 X-Originating-IP: 80.222.208.174 Message-ID: <484AA07A.2010308@ispro.net> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:51:38 +0300 From: Evren Yurtesen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> <200806051040.28319.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <200806051040.28319.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Andrew Snow Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:51:25 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > On Wednesday 04 June 2008 06:33:24 pm Andrew Snow wrote: >> Evren Yurtesen wrote: >> >>> When you say that it doesnt work, does it give an error or? In my case >>> it doesnt give any errors just says it set it but I see that nothing is >>> set. >> Here's one box: >> >> CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8500 @ 3.16GHz >> cpu0: on acpi0 >> est0: on cpu0 >> est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. >> est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 61a49200600091a >> device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 >> p4tcc0: on cpu0 >> >> >> Here's another one: >> CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5410 @ 2.33GHz >> cpu0: on acpi0 >> est0: on cpu0 >> est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. >> est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr 720072006000720 >> device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 >> p4tcc0: on cpu0 > > You can try http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/est_msr.patch. It won't give > you the full range of speeds for you CPU, but it should give you the high and > low values that we can guess from the upper 32-bits of the MSR. > The patch is causing errors in kernel compilation in FreeBSD 7-Stable. inter-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=8000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone -mfpmath=387 -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -msoft-float -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding -Werror /usr/src/sys/kern/imgact_elf32.c cc -c -O -pipe -march=nocona -std=c99 -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=8000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone -mfpmath=387 -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -msoft-float -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding -Werror /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/powernow.c cc -c -O -pipe -march=nocona -std=c99 -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=8000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone -mfpmath=387 -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -msoft-float -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding -Werror /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c: In function 'bus_speed_ok': /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1206: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_msr_info' cc1: warnings being treated as errors /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1206: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_msr_info' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1270: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_get_id16' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1270: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_get_id16' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1276: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_set_id16' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1276: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_set_id16' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1303: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_get_current' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1303: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_get_current' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1326: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_settings' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1326: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_settings' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1350: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_set' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1350: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_set' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1371: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_get' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1371: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_get' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1390: error: invalid storage class for function 'est_type' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1390: warning: no previous prototype for 'est_type' /usr/src/sys/i386/cpufreq/est.c:1397: error: expected declaration or statement at end of input *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MAIL. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src. mail:/usr/src# By the way, there is another thing I am wondering about. If I enable HTT and Intel Enhanced SpeedStep in bios on a 3.00GHZ p4 CPU I see: cpu0: on acpi0 acpi_perf0: on cpu0 p4tcc0: on cpu0 cpu1: on acpi0 est1: on cpu1 est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr f2700000f27 device_attach: est1 attach returned 6 p4tcc1: on cpu1 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 1500/27000 1312/23625 1200/13000 1050/11375 900/9750 750/8125 600/6500 450/4875 300/3250 150/1625 dev.acpi_perf.0.freq_settings: 1500/27000 1200/13000 dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 dev.cpufreq.1.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.1.%parent: cpu1 dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 dev.p4tcc.1.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 and it does not allow me to set the freq. of the cpu. If I disable HTT then I see: cpu0: on acpi0 est0: on cpu0 est0: Setting 1500 MHz p4tcc0: on cpu0 dev.cpu.0.freq: 1500 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 1500/27000 1312/23625 1200/13000 1050/11375 900/9750 750/8125 600/6500 450/4875 300/3250 150/1625 dev.est.0.freq_settings: 1500/27000 1200/13000 dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 I see the vcore goes to 2.32 when I set the speed to 150 according to mbmon, and when I set the speed to 1500 vcore goes to 2.51 Independent of HTT being active or not, when I enable Intel Enhanced SpeedStep from the bios I start seeing calcru messages: calcru: runtime went backwards from 6 usec to 3 usec for pid 37 (pagezero) calcru: runtime went backwards from 6 usec to 3 usec for pid 36 (vmdaemon) calcru: runtime went backwards from 170 usec to 138 usec for pid 35 (pagedaemon) calcru: runtime went backwards from 553 usec to 291 usec for pid 15 (swi6: task queue) calcru: runtime went backwards from 15521 usec to 10366 usec for pid 2 (g_event) calcru: runtime went backwards from 25 usec to 12 usec for pid 11 (swi1: net) calcru: runtime went backwards from 4417 usec to 3960 usec for pid 1 (init) calcru: runtime went backwards from 2084385 usec to 1793542 usec for pid 1 (init) calcru: runtime went backwards from 408 usec to 204 usec for pid 0 (swapper) Another weird thing is that if I keep HTT enable but disable Intel Enhanced SpeedStep then I see: cpu0: on acpi0 est0: on cpu0 est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr f2700000f27 device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 p4tcc0: on cpu0 cpu1: on acpi0 est1: on cpu1 est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr f2700000f27 device_attach: est1 attach returned 6 p4tcc1: on cpu1 and dev.cpu.0.freq: 2978 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 2978/-1 2605/-1 2233/-1 1861/-1 1489/-1 1116/-1 744/-1 372/-1 dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 dev.p4tcc.1.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 dev.cpufreq.1.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.1.%parent: cpu1 Notice the correct frequency and changing dev.cpu.0.freq effects the openssl speed rsa test so it is working. However when I change the dev.cpu.0.freq I receive an error (but it changes anyway): mail:/root#sysctl -w dev.cpu.0.freq=2978 dev.cpu.0.freq: 744 sysctl: dev.cpu.0.freq: Invalid argument mail:/root#sysctl -w dev.cpu.0.freq=2978 dev.cpu.0.freq: 2978 sysctl: dev.cpu.0.freq: Invalid argument mail:/root# and the openssl speed rsa test returns results which are consistent with the speed set. But, regardless of the speed set, mbmon shows 2.54volts all the time. When HTT and Intel Enhanced Speedstep is disabled in bios I see: cpu0: on acpi0 est0: on cpu0 est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr f2700000f27 device_attach: est0 attach returned 6 p4tcc0: on cpu0 and dev.cpu.0.freq: 2977 dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 2977/-1 2604/-1 2232/-1 1860/-1 1488/-1 1116/-1 744/-1 372/-1 dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 2500/-1 1250/-1 dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 Also the sysctl changes do not return an error however the vcore voltage still remains constant according to mbmon. Is there a reason why HTT is not properly detected by cpufreq and behaved accordingly? Thanks, Evren Thanks, Evren From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 16:48:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5301F106564A; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:48:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: from mx01.sc1.parodius.com (mx01.sc1.parodius.com [72.20.106.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394FD8FC1D; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:48:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@parodius.com) Received: by mx01.sc1.parodius.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E6FCB1CC033; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:48:12 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Evren Yurtesen Message-ID: <20080607164812.GA11072@eos.sc1.parodius.com> References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> <200806051040.28319.jhb@freebsd.org> <484AA07A.2010308@ispro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <484AA07A.2010308@ispro.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Andrew Snow , John Baldwin Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:48:13 -0000 On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 05:51:38PM +0300, Evren Yurtesen wrote: > By the way, there is another thing I am wondering about. If I enable HTT > and Intel Enhanced SpeedStep in bios on a 3.00GHZ p4 CPU I see: > > cpu0: on acpi0 > acpi_perf0: on cpu0 > p4tcc0: on cpu0 > cpu1: on acpi0 > est1: on cpu1 > est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. > est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr f2700000f27 > device_attach: est1 attach returned 6 > p4tcc1: on cpu1 > > dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 1500/27000 1312/23625 1200/13000 1050/11375 900/9750 > 750/8125 600/6500 450/4875 300/3250 150/1625 > dev.acpi_perf.0.freq_settings: 1500/27000 1200/13000 > dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq > dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 > dev.cpufreq.1.%driver: cpufreq > dev.cpufreq.1.%parent: cpu1 > dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 > 2500/-1 1250/-1 > dev.p4tcc.1.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 > 2500/-1 1250/-1 > > and it does not allow me to set the freq. of the cpu. How are you setting the frequency? Are you using powerd? You do not have to enable SpeedStep in your BIOS to achieve throttling CPU clock speed. In fact, I would highly recommend leaving EIST/SpeedStep in the BIOS *disabled*, and let powerd adjust the clock frequency via ACPI. > I see the vcore goes to 2.32 when I set the speed to 150 according to > mbmon, and when I set the speed to 1500 vcore goes to 2.51 mbmon is giving you wrong values. There is no way your Vcore on a P4 is 2.32 or 2.51 volts. It's very likely that mbmon doesn't support your hardware monitoring I/C. What motherboard (exact model) do you have? > Independent of HTT being active or not, when I enable Intel Enhanced > SpeedStep from the bios I start seeing calcru messages: > > calcru: runtime went backwards from 6 usec to 3 usec for pid 37 (pagezero) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 6 usec to 3 usec for pid 36 (vmdaemon) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 170 usec to 138 usec for pid 35 (pagedaemon) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 553 usec to 291 usec for pid 15 (swi6: > task queue) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 15521 usec to 10366 usec for pid 2 (g_event) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 25 usec to 12 usec for pid 11 (swi1: net) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 4417 usec to 3960 usec for pid 1 (init) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 2084385 usec to 1793542 usec for pid 1 (init) > calcru: runtime went backwards from 408 usec to 204 usec for pid 0 (swapper) I've documented this problem quite clearly on my Commonly Reported Issues wiki page. See "Kernel - EIST incompatibilities": http://wiki.freebsd.org/JeremyChadwick/Commonly_reported_issues The solution is to keep EIST (SpeedStep) disabled in the BIOS. You can still use powerd to adjust CPU clock frequency via ACPI. > Another weird thing is that if I keep HTT enable but disable Intel Enhanced > SpeedStep then I see: > > ... > > Also the sysctl changes do not return an error however the vcore voltage > still remains constant according to mbmon. Again: it's highly unlikely mbmon is returning correct values. mbmon and healthd both were written with very old hardware (circa late 90s, very early 2001-2002) in mind. The chips they support are not very common on consumer motherboards, and are no longer used on server motherboards. You might be interested in my bsdhwmon(8) application, but please note I'm trying to avoid supporting any sort of "consumer" motherboards, because many of them do not offer SMBus tie-ins, not to mention many consumer board vendors don't provide any sort of documentation on how to access said H/W IC functionality: http://bsdhwmon.parodius.com/ -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 18:01:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FAB106567B for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:01:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0593C8FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:01:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-74-77-179-53.buffalo.res.rr.com [74.77.179.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m57I1Ce9059317 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:01:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu) From: Ken Smith To: Paul Schmehl In-Reply-To: <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CZ989LfjcdYiVNy3A6Dx" Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:01:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1212861667.94878.17.camel@neo.cse.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:01:15 -0000 --=-CZ989LfjcdYiVNy3A6Dx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 23:37 -0500, Paul Schmehl wrote: > My point still stands. I think the behavior of the developers on the=20 > lists should be of as high a quality as the work they do on the OS (which= ,=20 > as I have stated, is first rate.) Descending to the levels that some hav= e=20 > (some of which you quote here) reflects poorly on the OS and its=20 > developers. I can empathize somewhat with your sentiment. But at the same time I can see where what you are criticizing comes from. As others have said Free Software Projects function as communities. Look around your (real) community. I'm guessing you'll see all sorts of different personalities. And those personalities are often times not shy about speaking their views. Now, factor that in with the following analogy. We've all seen scenes on TV shows or in movies where a customer sends a dish back to the kitchen via the waiter complaining about something. The chef proceeds to pick up a meat cleaver and head towards the door, only to be stopped by the waiter. Sometimes on the mailing lists you'll see the reaction of the chef, there is no waiter to stop him/her. That's just the nature of the community structure surrounding Open Source Projects and it's not unique to FreeBSD. Corporations you can expect to be held to higher standards, or more specifically held to standards that you would hold all corporations to. When on the mailing lists you can't expect "corporate standards", what you'll get is "community standards". --=20 Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | --=-CZ989LfjcdYiVNy3A6Dx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkhKzNcACgkQ/G14VSmup/Z3nACgjdsu600+rvRZKlbjLdGXATwA i3IAoJNzJixMixyXB1dZX5eSreBFelis =uGzJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CZ989LfjcdYiVNy3A6Dx-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:20:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF4B1065675 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:20:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@areilly.bpa.nu) Received: from nskntqsrv01p.mx.bigpond.com (nskntqsrv01p.mx.bigpond.com [61.9.168.231]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC9C8FC18 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:20:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@areilly.bpa.nu) Received: from nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080607125338.OLSC3571.nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com@nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:53:38 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080607125337.WNCQ18502.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:53:37 +0000 Received: (qmail 9646 invoked by uid 501); 7 Jun 2008 12:53:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:53:32 +1000 From: Andrew Reilly To: Vivek Khera Message-ID: <20080607125332.GA8784@duncan.reilly.home> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <702FA4B9-8CEE-4C9D-86A8-157CA1E69BD7@khera.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-RPD-ScanID: Class unknown; VirusThreatLevel unknown, RefID str=0001.0A150205.484A84D1.005F,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:20:35 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:08:54PM -0400, Vivek Khera wrote: > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Clifton Royston wrote: > > > Speaking just for myself, I'd love to get a general response from > >people who have run servers on both as to whether 6.3 is on average > >more stable than 6.2. I really haven't gotten any clear impression as > > I'll throw in my "+1" for running 6.3. I have it on many boxes, some > of which run gmirror and some of which have bge devices (some with > both). Never any problems. They operate things varying from Postgres > servers to DNS servers to mail servers (postfix) under pretty > consistent load pushing lots and lots of data both network and to disk. I'll second your "+1" for 6.3 and raise you a 7.0. My main server is a 1U Dell box with bge network interfaces and it's as happy as a clam under 7.0 (infrequently updated _STABLE, actually). All of my more single-use boxes are happy 7_STABLE campers, too. Most of 'em are close to 0 load average, but they're important, continuously used by their smallish user base, and stay up. Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:22:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE921065679 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:22:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arno@heho.snv.jussieu.fr) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277468FC21 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:22:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arno@heho.snv.jussieu.fr) Received: from heho.snv.jussieu.fr (heho.snv.jussieu.fr [134.157.184.22]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.14.2/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id m57JMEIg065849 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:22:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Ids: 168 Received: from heho.snv.jussieu.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heho.snv.jussieu.fr (8.13.3/jtpda-5.2) with ESMTP id m57JMDla014460 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:22:13 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from arno@localhost) by heho.snv.jussieu.fr (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id m57JMD5t014457; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:22:13 +0200 (MEST) (envelope-from arno) To: stable@freebsd.org From: "Arno J. Klaassen" Date: 07 Jun 2008 21:22:12 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.168]); Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:22:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/7396/Sat Jun 7 18:56:07 2008 on shiva.jussieu.fr X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Miltered: at jchkmail.jussieu.fr with ID 484ADFE6.003 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 484ADFE6.003/134.157.184.22/heho.snv.jussieu.fr/heho.snv.jussieu.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 484ADFE6.003 on jchkmail.jussieu.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.018 -> S=0.018 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: Subject: cpufreq for Opteron quad-core (2354) X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:22:16 -0000 Hello, apparently powernow on Opteron quad-core is not recognised; when I kldload cpufreq (leaving it out of kernel) I get : pci0: driver added pci1: driver added pci2: driver added pci3: driver added pci4: driver added pci5: driver added pci6: driver added found-> vendor=0x9005, dev=0x0285, revid=0x00 domain=0, bus=6, slot=14, func=0 class=01-04-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 cmdreg=0x0196, statreg=0x0230, cachelnsz=16 (dwords) lattimer=0xf8 (7440 ns), mingnt=0x01 (250 ns), maxlat=0x01 (250 ns) intpin=a, irq=28 powerspec 2 supports D0 D1 D3 current D0 MSI supports 2 messages, 64 bit pci0:6:14:0: reprobing on driver added pci7: driver added pci8: driver added pci9: driver added pci10: driver added but no dev.cpu.0.freq* showing up. When I dig up the by me so beloved good old acpi_ppc it says : cpu0: Px state: P0, 2200MHz, 28000mW, 19us, 19us cpu0: Px state: P1, 2000MHz, 26250mW, 19us, 19us cpu0: Px state: P2, 1700MHz, 23750mW, 19us, 19us cpu0: Px state: P3, 1400MHz, 21250mW, 19us, 19us cpu0: Px state: P4, 1100MHz, 18750mW, 19us, 19us cpu0: Px method: Unknown, disabled This box will probably stay at my office for a while and I'd be glad to provide more information. Best, Arno From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:23:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F455106567B for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andy.kosela@gmail.com) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.177]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7023C8FC22 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andy.kosela@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so1094507wah.3 for ; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:23:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=qbV727tWa22UN1kZ5TDUPW84jCMH3I5zkkKUWMxZteQ=; b=AgGtgCHIM3J6Uq8jQr50ObwTa0uRAfFAWrPHPwgs1XXTAyI/SRZla9e1NOMiejYRXK ViTB7WCifefT2ECmUR+Z/njdGAtGsBlIgjht77B9nmdnXndYLLr2QZwmmg0jUop14tsA 3V24ZHEEgA7Bk6knY/FGAQ5IPUa0uUr7mcJ9Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=q3LtbbK4YsFRnWCPa9mS22QvLDDZPnZohbIRf4siBlmvQTyVomG1tov/FMKMRamV8h 7A0JreaIGufT+z7P2MK6ROYOPqpFr3RgcJIBu6JmDvjcVs8pPS1ZzN9Dw+OIFRr2cURa MVC4JgUV2CCk3F4bhGKL8ifbUCRL5kOGItkrc= Received: by 10.114.209.1 with SMTP id h1mr1651802wag.36.1212865085951; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.112.6 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3cc535c80806071158h44ec9be1pbe72ca6711016bde@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:58:05 +0200 From: "Andy Kosela" To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Subject: Current status of support for high end SAN hardware X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:23:37 -0000 Hi all, What is the current status of support for high end SAN hardware in FreeBSD? I'm especially interested in support for HP EVA/XP disk arrays, Qlogic HBAs, multipathing. How FreeBSD compares in this environment to RHEL 5? -- Andy Kosela ora et labora From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:31:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30616106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:31:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kutulu@kutulu.org) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC67C8FC0C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:31:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kutulu@kutulu.org) Received: from basement.kutulu.org ([70.121.200.185]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080607193119.YHNB23887.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@basement.kutulu.org> for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:31:19 +0000 Received: from [192.168.69.4] (wombat.jungle [192.168.69.4]) by basement.kutulu.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 652E911440; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <484AE20C.3060408@kutulu.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:31:24 -0400 From: Mike Edenfield User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Schmehl References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> In-Reply-To: <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:31:21 -0000 Paul Schmehl wrote: > Furthermore, it seems the reaction of developers, that he wasn't being > specific enough are rendered moot by the urls above, which were easily > accessed by me, someone with little knowledge at all of two of the > three issues. So, rather than berating Jo for not producing PRs, > wouldn't it have been more professional to list the relevant PRs (just > as I have done, which took me less time than the multiple angry > responses to Jo took the involved developers) and ask him which of > them gave him the greatest concerns? I'm sure I'm not the only person besides yourself who's actually done the searches to see if there are any PRs I may be able to shed light on for Jo. I also briefly read each PR, and even a brief persual would show: > > > That url lists 6 serious problems for bge and 3 non-critical problems, > some dating to more than two years ago. Two were patched, one is > suspended and 6 are still open; four of those critical. Only 3 (2 critical and one patched) of which are specific to 6.3. One is specific to IPv6 and one only occurring on the second of a dual-card configuration; we have no reason to believe that either of these relate to Jo's environment without his providing that kind of detail. > > That url lists 1 serious problem and 3 non-critical problems with > gmirror, all of which remain open. Only one of these is specific to 6.3, and it appears very low priority, almost cosmetic. > > > > That url refers to locking problems that cause kernel panics using the > twe driver. This appears to be a bug in aac, not twe. > > > That url refers to a hang that renders a system unusable when using > the twa driver. And it was present in 6.2. Unfortunately the URLs only serve to make the developer's points for them. None of them gives any indication of what problem Jo may be referring to that is preventing him from upgrading to 6.3. Remember, he claims to have multiple servers running 6.2 with no issues, and is only concerned with upgrades to 6.3. He also stated that the PR's he's worried about explicitly stated that they could not be reproduced in 6.2, so any bug that existed in 6.2 clearly doesn't qualify. That rules out all but two bugs, both of which are so specific to a given hardware setup that it would be impossible to know if they apply in this case or not. --Mike From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:36:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30B11065672 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:36:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31878FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:36:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57JZsch059319; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.051 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.126, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <2AB4EE00-3F2C-4DAC-B68F-CA40918BFAC3@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Peter Jeremy In-Reply-To: <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:35:48 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:36:02 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 1:39 AM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Jun-04 22:22:33 -0700, Jo Rhett > wrote: >> And please stop with the loaded language. I'm not asking anyone to >> work >> for me. I am suggesting that it is perhaps too early to EoL 6.2 >> because >> 6.3 isn't ready yet. > > So you have stated. When asked to provide evidence to backup that > statement, you have refused. Since you are the one claiming that > "6.3 isn't ready yet", the onus is on you to put up or shut up. Sorry, Peter to have annoyed you, but this kind of language is useless for accomplishing anything other than pissing me off. I'm not going to go there. And I never "refused" anything, simply indicated that I didn't have time at that moment. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:41:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8401065677 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:41:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0988FC1C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:41:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57JfPm3059627; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.049 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.128, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] From: Jo Rhett To: Steven Hartland In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:41:18 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Max Laier , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:41:41 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:45 AM, Steven Hartland wrote: > You are still fail to take to the time to even tell people what these > bugs are, no ones a mind reader! > > People are trying to help you here but all I'm hearing is a child like > "It doesn't work fix it", with no willingness to even explain what it > is or provide resources to test if someone found the time to > investigate > your issues. > Given this I don't see how you can expect these so called issues to > ever get fixed. I think you are misunderstanding the point at hand. I'm not trying to address specific issues. (I'd be happy to in another thread next week). This thread was created to address the overall well-documented list of bugs in 6.3, which is the *only* supported stable version of the operating system. (7.0 is even less stable) The most stable (by numbers of bugs and numbers of reported problems) is 6.2. I see no valid reasoning that can be backed up by numbers as to why 6.2 should be EoL. That's the point I'm addressing. The specific bugs that affect us are not necessarily relevant to the overall stability. And anyone can do the same searches on the bug list to confirm these numbers for themselves. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:48:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70FB1065675 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947A98FC15 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57JmERX059967; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.043 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.134, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Adrian Chadd In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:48:08 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net> <20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <7B8FD1A1E7DA49DFA68252BF9C74AE6F@multiplay.co.uk> <1A050712-3D0F-4263-A9F8-EE4AD042486E@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:48:22 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 4:34 AM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > If its of major concern for you, then allocate some man hours, grab > the /usr/src/sys diffs between RELENG_6_2_0_RELEASE and > RELENG_6_3_0_RELEASE. > > The others on the list have stated over and over again that they > haven't seen any issues and would like to know precisely what they > are. While I appreciate their concern for the specifics, I think those should be addressed in another thread. This thread was meant to question the overall stability issues that pretty much anyone can view for themselves in the freebsd-questions/hardware/scsi mailing lists and queries in the open bug reports. > If stability is your main concern then you could throw some resources > at fixing 6.3 or throw some resources at backporting security fixes to > 6.2. I will apparently be backporting the security fixes myself until 6.4 ships. > I'm sure noone has an agenda to squish the FreeBSD version you're > using for any reason other than there aren't enough people > volunteering / being paid to work on back-porting security fixes. This is perhaps the real topic that needs to be addressed. Can we get some more details on the issues involved here? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:51:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADB8106567A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:51:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel@skytek.it) Received: from mail.skytek.it (mail.skytek.it [217.194.176.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4B98FC1A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:51:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel@skytek.it) Received: from [192.168.30.100] ([192.168.30.100]) by mail.skytek.it (Skytek Mail Server v.11.47-p9) with ASMTP id NZG06356; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:51:56 +0200 Message-ID: <484AE6E1.2050504@skytek.it> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:52:01 +0200 From: Daniel Ponticello User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Kosela References: <3cc535c80806071158h44ec9be1pbe72ca6711016bde@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80806071158h44ec9be1pbe72ca6711016bde@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Current status of support for high end SAN hardware X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:51:58 -0000 On FreeBSD7, i'm succesfully using Qlogic 4gb fibre channel HBAs (ISP driver) attached to Fibre Brocade Switch and IBM DS4700 (14 disks array) using 4 way multipath with gmultipath. Regards, Daniel Andy Kosela ha scritto: > Hi all, > What is the current status of support for high end SAN hardware in FreeBSD? > I'm especially interested in support for HP EVA/XP disk arrays, Qlogic > HBAs, multipathing. > How FreeBSD compares in this environment to RHEL 5? > > -- WBR, Cordiali Saluti, Daniel Ponticello, VP of Engineering Network Coordination Centre of Skytek --- - For further information about our services: - Please visit our website at http://www.Skytek.it --- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:53:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9074A106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:53:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807738FC18 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:53:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57JrIGS060165; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.041 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.136, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <37414AAF-C75A-4292-A174-2198BEF2A7DF@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: "Bruce M. Simpson" In-Reply-To: <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:53:10 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:53:26 -0000 (Top posted because I didn't want to snip what you said) Bruce, all of what you said below is well known. I understand and don't have any problem with this. You seem to be trying to address something I wasn't asking about -- certifications, etc and such. Not a concern. The question I raised is simply: given the number of bugs opened and fixed since 6.3-RELEASE shipped, why is 6.3 the only supported version? Why does it make sense for FreeBSD to stop supporting a stable version and force people to choose between two different unstable versions? Is this really the right thing to do? On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:03 AM, Bruce M. Simpson wrote: > It is worth remembering that FreeBSD is an open source project, > and it's maintained on a best-effort basis -- it is offered for free > and without any warranty. Like any other open source project, risk > management and change management becomes a two-way street, because > that's the trade-off struck with the open source model. > > The risks, as well as the benefits, have to be factored in > carefully to your company's technology strategy, as I'm sure you're > aware. > > I'm very surprised that the 6.3 train has been a big issue for > you, although speaking from the development side of the fence, there > are a lot of moving targets, and vendor support of the OS does play > a part. > It is difficult to offer any more specific advice without knowing > in more detail exactly what's causing such problems for you, > although I see you've offered general pointers, the folk directly > involved need to be pointed at direct information. > The FreeBSD Project just doesn't have the resources to do > compatibility testing on the scale of e.g. Windows Hardware Quality > Labs, as I'm sure you are also aware. > > I take on board what you say about your organisation holding back > on an upgrade because there are PRs filed for the hardware you use, > and having worked in an investment banking environment, I understand > this level of conservatism is warranted. > > However, I point out again: it's the open source model, and where > hardware compatibility is concerned, it really is a case of "suck it > and see". > Always has been, no different anywhere else. Open source requires > user participation. Microsoft run the WHQL because their status as a > going concern depends on it. > > I'm pleased to hear about your offer of hardware resources for > developers. However, this is only part of the problem. > To my mind, you need to find the right people, with the right > skills, to deal with the issues, and quite often, those guys are > already in demand, and thus their time can attract a high value. > Open source succeeds because money is not the only motivation. > The alternative is DIY, and that is "the point". > > If you need firm guarantees about support, consider contracting > with someone to do that. Many companies using FreeBSD already > outsource this kind of support requirement to 3rd parties. There are > also FreeBSD hardware vendors who support FreeBSD as a platform. > > If you want someone to take responsibility, make 'em an offer. > > thanks, > BMS -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:59:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A610106566B for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:59:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682A58FC0A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:59:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57Jwvu1060257; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.038 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.139, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <0AE1196D-949A-4F2A-B885-2740D95BEF07@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Jeremy Chadwick In-Reply-To: <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:58:51 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <20080605125105.GA79727@eos.sc1.parodius.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable , "Bruce M. Simpson" Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:59:06 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:51 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > If the exact regression between 6.2 and 6.3 can be tracked down, > great. > If it's in a specific driver, CVS commit logs or cvsweb will come in > handy. Otherwise, if it's some larger piece of code ("ohai i revamped > the intrupt handlar!"), chances of finding it are slimmer. I'm a bit > disappointed that Jo hasn't explicitly mentioned what's broken in 6.3 > that's affecting him, because that might help everyone. Heck, I'll > even > add it to my Commonly reported issue wiki page. PRs would be good, > but > I'll gladly take past mailing list discussions. I will start a new thread with the specific issues that concern my environment upon my return. I'd like to keep the specific issues separate from the overall policy question, because they are very different in my mind. > Jo's opinion is reasonable, but the bottom line is that the FreeBSD > Project folks will always win the argument once the "it's best-effort" > trump card is played; the convo has to end once it's on the table. Yes, but it often gets played too often too fast. It's worth having a discussion of the policy goals. I'm not saying that this isn't the very best that FreeBSD can do -- maybe it is. I just couldn't find any documentation of why dropping 6.2 makes a lot of sense, so I was hoping to get a clear answer for that. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 19:59:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C1E1065670 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:59:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dick@nagual.nl) Received: from nagual.nl (cc20684-a.assen1.dr.home.nl [82.74.10.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440AB8FC1A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:59:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dick@nagual.nl) Received: from westmark (westmark.nagual.nl [192.168.11.22]) by nagual.nl (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/yanta) with ESMTP id m57K0ABj015321 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:00:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:59:30 +0200 From: Dick Hoogendijk To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080607215930.000034e6@westmark> In-Reply-To: <37414AAF-C75A-4292-A174-2198BEF2A7DF@netconsonance.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <37414AAF-C75A-4292-A174-2198BEF2A7DF@netconsonance.com> Organization: de nagual X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.4.0 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-pc-solaris2.11) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 192.168.11.35 Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:59:46 -0000 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:53:10 -0700 Jo Rhett wrote: > Why does it make sense for FreeBSD to stop supporting a stable > version and force people to choose between two different unstable > versions? Is this really the right thing to do? NO, it's not. But you can't change that. The maintainers run the show. It's their time and their baby. And from one pov that's true. Users have to shut up if not contributing big time. I still think your questions are legitimate. You won't win the battle however. -- Dick Hoogendijk -- PGP/GnuPG key: 01D2433D ++ http://nagual.nl/ + SunOS sxde 01/08 ++ From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:04:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7DC1065676; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:04:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE4B8FC1A; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:04:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57K4Pqs060350; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.036 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.141, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:04:16 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:04:37 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > If you have issues with 6.3, your time would be better spent reporting > them (by which I mean describe them in detail) than waving your =20 > hands in > the air and yelling at people. Must you resort to nonsense and hyperbole? I'd said nearly a dozen times that the issues I have aren't =20 specifics. I am questioning the overall policy for EoL here. Even if =20= it was known to work properly on my hardware the overwhelming amount =20 of bugs in 6.3 indicates an unstable release. The diffs between 6.3 =20 and 6-STABLE are greater than the diffs between 6.2 and 6.3 last time =20= I checked. I can't understand the logic in having only a single supported version =20= of the OS, especially one which so many known/reported/fixed-post-=20 release bugs. And please don't respond if you can't avoid resorting to hyperbole =20 like what I quoted above. --=20 Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source =20 and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:05:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8D6106567A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:05:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: from mail.ispro.net (mail.ispro.net [87.251.0.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678708FC2A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:05:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net) Received: (qmail 25978 invoked by uid 399); 7 Jun 2008 23:02:08 +0300 Received: from dsl-tkubrasgw1-fed0de00-174.dhcp.inet.fi (HELO ?80.222.208.174?) (yurtesen@ispro.net@80.222.208.174) by mail.ispro.net with ESMTPAM; 7 Jun 2008 23:02:08 +0300 X-Originating-IP: 80.222.208.174 Message-ID: <484AEA18.4030901@ispro.net> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:05:44 +0300 From: Evren Yurtesen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Chadwick References: <4847072E.5000709@ispro.net> <484713B2.5030200@ispro.net> <48471834.30905@modulus.org> <200806051040.28319.jhb@freebsd.org> <484AA07A.2010308@ispro.net> <20080607164812.GA11072@eos.sc1.parodius.com> In-Reply-To: <20080607164812.GA11072@eos.sc1.parodius.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Andrew Snow , John Baldwin Subject: Re: cpufreq broken on core2duo X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:05:30 -0000 Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 05:51:38PM +0300, Evren Yurtesen wrote: >> By the way, there is another thing I am wondering about. If I enable HTT >> and Intel Enhanced SpeedStep in bios on a 3.00GHZ p4 CPU I see: >> >> cpu0: on acpi0 >> acpi_perf0: on cpu0 >> p4tcc0: on cpu0 >> cpu1: on acpi0 >> est1: on cpu1 >> est: CPU supports Enhanced Speedstep, but is not recognized. >> est: cpu_vendor GenuineIntel, msr f2700000f27 >> device_attach: est1 attach returned 6 >> p4tcc1: on cpu1 >> >> dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 1500/27000 1312/23625 1200/13000 1050/11375 900/9750 >> 750/8125 600/6500 450/4875 300/3250 150/1625 >> dev.acpi_perf.0.freq_settings: 1500/27000 1200/13000 >> dev.cpufreq.0.%driver: cpufreq >> dev.cpufreq.0.%parent: cpu0 >> dev.cpufreq.1.%driver: cpufreq >> dev.cpufreq.1.%parent: cpu1 >> dev.p4tcc.0.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 >> 2500/-1 1250/-1 >> dev.p4tcc.1.freq_settings: 10000/-1 8750/-1 7500/-1 6250/-1 5000/-1 3750/-1 >> 2500/-1 1250/-1 >> >> and it does not allow me to set the freq. of the cpu. > > How are you setting the frequency? Are you using powerd? You do not > have to enable SpeedStep in your BIOS to achieve throttling CPU clock > speed. In fact, I would highly recommend leaving EIST/SpeedStep in the > BIOS *disabled*, and let powerd adjust the clock frequency via ACPI. I have tested if it is working or not without using powerd. However you are right, SpeedStep in bios seem to be adding some ACPI support which looks like kind of broken. In either case, I get error when I have HTT as powerd (powerd -v) is only able to change 1 CPUs speed (obviously). Perhaps this can be fixed in future hopefully. In the bios, there is also Enhanced C1 support which seems to be reducing the vcore voltage at the same clock speed. (is this normal even?) >> I see the vcore goes to 2.32 when I set the speed to 150 according to >> mbmon, and when I set the speed to 1500 vcore goes to 2.51 > > mbmon is giving you wrong values. There is no way your Vcore on a P4 is > 2.32 or 2.51 volts. It's very likely that mbmon doesn't support your > hardware monitoring I/C. What motherboard (exact model) do you have? I thought about that actually but at this moment the importance is that it is changing only under certain conditions, there is probably some mistake in mbmon which skews the results. This is the motherboard (information from the datacenter): http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/PD/E7230/PDSML-LN2.cfm Although kenv | grep smbios show PDSBM can this be or the datacenter is wrong? I just went to bios and says 1.264v so I guess it is safe to assume that mbmon was showing double. >> Independent of HTT being active or not, when I enable Intel Enhanced >> SpeedStep from the bios I start seeing calcru messages: >> >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 6 usec to 3 usec for pid 37 (pagezero) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 6 usec to 3 usec for pid 36 (vmdaemon) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 170 usec to 138 usec for pid 35 (pagedaemon) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 553 usec to 291 usec for pid 15 (swi6: >> task queue) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 15521 usec to 10366 usec for pid 2 (g_event) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 25 usec to 12 usec for pid 11 (swi1: net) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 4417 usec to 3960 usec for pid 1 (init) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 2084385 usec to 1793542 usec for pid 1 (init) >> calcru: runtime went backwards from 408 usec to 204 usec for pid 0 (swapper) > > I've documented this problem quite clearly on my Commonly Reported > Issues wiki page. See "Kernel - EIST incompatibilities": > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/JeremyChadwick/Commonly_reported_issues > > The solution is to keep EIST (SpeedStep) disabled in the BIOS. You can > still use powerd to adjust CPU clock frequency via ACPI. Yes, I have nothing against keeping it closed. :) >> Another weird thing is that if I keep HTT enable but disable Intel Enhanced >> SpeedStep then I see: >> >> ... >> >> Also the sysctl changes do not return an error however the vcore voltage >> still remains constant according to mbmon. > > Again: it's highly unlikely mbmon is returning correct values. mbmon > and healthd both were written with very old hardware (circa late 90s, > very early 2001-2002) in mind. The chips they support are not very > common on consumer motherboards, and are no longer used on server > motherboards. > > You might be interested in my bsdhwmon(8) application, but please note > I'm trying to avoid supporting any sort of "consumer" motherboards, > because many of them do not offer SMBus tie-ins, not to mention many > consumer board vendors don't provide any sort of documentation on how to > access said H/W IC functionality: Yes, as a coincidence I found: http://fixunix.com/freebsd/384760-looking-supermicro-hardware-owners.html I have 2 other servers with: http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon1333/5000V/X7DVL-i.cfm (eh this one gives "X7DVL" correctly in kenv output also :) ) and I have some Intel products. I can test out bsdhwmon... I will send you the bios screenshots later to your e-mail. I have to leave now for a short while. Thanks, Evren From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:09:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9041A1065676 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860CB8FC12 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57K9EaG060405; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.034 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.034 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.143, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <26AD2497-B8BA-47CD-8802-FA354738A674@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:09:06 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:09:21 -0000 Hi, John. Thanks for your update and I'll keep your experience in mind. As stated in previous messages, I'll open new threads in the appropriate lists about any specific driver issues (with details) that I am concerned about. This thread was intended to deal with the overall policy issue for dropping 6.2 in just barely more than a year.. On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:23 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > On Wednesday 04 June 2008 01:20:56 pm Jo Rhett wrote: >> Okay, I totally understand that FreeBSD wants people to upgrade from >> 6.2 to 6.3. But given that 6.3 is still experiencing bugs with >> things >> that are working fine and stable in 6.2, this is a pretty hard case >> to >> make. >> >> This is also a fairly significant investment in terms of time and >> money for any business to handle this ugprade. It totally understand >> obsoleting 5.x now that 7.x is out. But 6.2 is barely a year old... > > FWIW, at Y! 6.3 is more stable than 6.2 (I had a list of about 10 > patches for > known deadlocks and kernel panics that were errata candidates for > 6.2 that > never made it into RELENG_6_2 but all of them are in 6.3). We also > have many > machines with bge(4) and from our perspective 6.3 has less issues > with bge0 > devices than 6.2. > > Given the real world experience I have, your claims of instability w/ > o even > testing 6.3 border on silly. Also, when it comes to bge(4), you > need to be > _very_ specific about what chipsets you are using and comparing > those with > the chipsets in the bug reports you read. The bge(4) driver in > particular > covers a vast range of different hardware variations and is a bit of a > hodge-podge itself. If there is a problem with a 5705 card then it > may be > specific to just 5705 parts and not affect 575x, etc. parts. > > Again, with 3ware, there are two different drivers (twe(4) vs > twa(4)) and > again, you need to be more specific with which driver you are using > and which > model controllers you have. > > -- > John Baldwin -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:15:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D9810656AF; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:15:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B1F8FC13; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:15:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57KFOia060550; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.031 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.146, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:15:18 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: please stop being nasty to people. X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:15:30 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually >>> read the >>> support announcements? They are public ;) ... > Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". > Don't like it? Do something about it. Kris, is this kind of repeated nastiness necessary? Most everyone who has posted on this thread cares deeply about FreeBSD and does what they can to support it. What do you hope to gain by being nasty to them? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:18:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBD4106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:18:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.33]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 348A88FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:18:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: (qmail 25744 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2008 20:18:35 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 7 Jun 2008 20:18:35 -0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:18:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20080607.221835.74664729.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: jrhett@netconsonance.com From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> References: <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:18:37 -0000 > I'd said nearly a dozen times that the issues I have aren't > specifics. I am questioning the overall policy for EoL here. Even if > it was known to work properly on my hardware the overwhelming amount > of bugs in 6.3 indicates an unstable release. No. 6.3 is very stable for us, on multiple machines. So is 7.0. And I have seen lots of other users basically saying the same thing. *You* are the one claiming that "the overwhelming amount of bugs in 6.3 indicates an unstable release" - yet you are unwilling to test 6.3 and you are also unwilling to show the PRs you claim exist. My sympathy for such a view is limited. Personally, I'm very happy with the work that the developers have put in and are *continuing* to put in. However, I'm just a user, not a developer. I have occasionally contributed bug fixes to FreeBSD, which is *my* best waying of returning the favor of all of the persons who have spent countless hours, often unpaid, to make FreeBSD a better system. I hope they continue! Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:28:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5684E1065675; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BBE8FC21; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57KSRds060799; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.029 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.148, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <5CCF0D6E-56C1-4EBD-B8A6-955311F7851E@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:28:21 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:28:38 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: > There has been nothing of value offered in this thread, and it's > only served to piss off a number of developers who already put huge > amounts of volunteer time into supporting FreeBSD, and who take > pride in the quality of their work. I'm honestly sorry to hear that. I tried very hard with the very limited time I had available to me to phrase it clearly as a policy/ support issue and not to put the blame on any developer. There are number of issues in projects I support that are waiting on time from me too, so I can hardly point any fingers in that direction. We *all* have less time to work on this stuff than we might want. > Asking the volunteers to > a) fix unspecified problems that the submitter will not name in > detail but which are OMG SHOWSTOPPER YOU MUST FIX In rereading my quotes I may have not been clear on something. The vast majority of these bugs have already been fixed. ("not in a state that needs help identifying" was what I said trying to cover both that and known bugs without a fix yet) However, the fixes are not available in a -RELEASE version of the operating system. This is why EoLing 6.2 and forcing people to upgrade to a release with lots of known issues is a problem. Obviously you have to choose between developer time/effort to create a release candidate and the effort required to backdate security patches to 6.2. I don't know the reasons (which is why I created this thread) but my guess was the latter was easier than the former... > b) donate even more unpaid time to supporting branches because it > seems like a good "compromise" (!) > shows a complete failure of understanding and frankly beggars belief. Although the insults aren't helpful, I agree with you. I created this thread because I have a "failure of understanding". I'd appreciate some enlightenment of the real costs involved (and how we could help if possible). That's why I created this thread. > Such people are not acting as supporters of the project, however > well-intentioned they may believe themselves to be. You seem quite willing to make enemies. I'm not your enemy, and we'd both probably get a lot more work done if you stopped treating me like one. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:35:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CF1106566B; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:35:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DD48FC0C; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:35:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57KZfkm060979; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.027 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.150, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Adrian Chadd In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:35:34 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:35:49 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > The OP stated "argh argh sky is falling with 6.3!" but hasn't yet > listed PRs which indicate this to be happening. > He's offered hardware in a week or two - which is great! - but what > irks the developers is the large amount of noise and absolutely no > useful information. Anyone can say "its broken!".. Adrian, your other comments are smart and valid. Why is this kind of hyperbole necessary? I never said anything tragic or emergency or anything like that. I questioned the practicality of having a single supported release with significant known bugs in it. It will take pretty much all the time I spend supporting FreeBSD os and applications away to focus entirely on backporting security patches back to 6.2. I know of several other organizations facing the same problem. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:39:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8C01065687; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:39:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10E78FC0A; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:39:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57KdED5061064; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.025 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.025 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.152, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <346A79CC-B230-412D-892C-7164774C8954@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Adrian Chadd In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:39:07 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:39:25 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > So yes, the way to contribute is to get involved. If you think there's > a real desire to take FreeBSD-6.2 (as an example) and continue > supporting security patches and critical bugfixes, versus the > larger-scale changes which seem to have gone on in /usr/src/sys then > just get together a group, generate some patches and submit them. Splinter groups, in my experience, tend to create duplicate work loads and make things harder, not easier. They seem to be useful only when there is a deadlock in the core team, and so far FreeBSD has avoided that. I would rather focus my efforts on something that produces more effective results. This is the reasoning behind my question: why drop 6.2 and 6.1 at the same time? What is the real cost of supporting 6.2 until a new stable version ships? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:44:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704DD106567E; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:44:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emss@free.fr) Received: from mallaury.nerim.net (mallaury.ipv6.nerim.net [IPv6:2001:7a8:1:5::82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DAE8FC19; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:44:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emss@free.fr) Received: from srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com (kisoft.net1.nerim.net [62.212.107.51]) by mallaury.nerim.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09F54F3B8; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:43:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C449417090; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at interne.kisoft-services.com Received: from srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cbeBagOpfPWk; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C93AB17239; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:02 +0200 (CEST) To: Jo Rhett From: Eric Masson In-Reply-To: (Jo Rhett's message of "Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:15:18 -0700") References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.3-RELEASE-p1 i386 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:44:02 +0200 Message-ID: <8663slq8kt.fsf@srvbsdnanssv.interne.kisoft-services.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1008 (Gnus v5.10.8) XEmacs/21.5-b28 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Kris Kennaway , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: please stop being nasty to people. X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:44:05 -0000 Jo Rhett writes: Hi, >> Yes, and this is the FreeBSD definition of "long term support". >> Don't like it? Do something about it. > > Kris, is this kind of repeated nastiness necessary? This is not nastiness, if you don't like the way the project manages release lifecycle, you have workarounds : - Test new release-candidates to verify no regression pop up in your standard setup, fill PRs about problems if needed and help project developpers to make the release better. - Pay someone to maintain the One True Release that suits your particular needs. - Use an os/distro that has the kind of long term support you seem to need. You just can't expect to moan on a mailing list about hypothetical bugs that would impact your setup and be welcomed as the new messiah as you demand extended support for a previous release just because you haven't done your homework. -- > Follow-up fmb.linux, parce que la charte de fca.emacs, redigee par mes > soins, interdit les trolls GNU Emacs/XEmacs, sur lesquels je suis le > premier a me lancer :-) -+- JK in guide du linuxien pervers - bien configurer sa charte -+- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:44:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95F71065728 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:44:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hausen@punkt.de) Received: from kagate.punkt.de (kagate.punkt.de [217.29.33.131]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC4A8FC16 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:44:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hausen@punkt.de) Received: from hugo10.ka.punkt.de (hugo10.ka.punkt.de [10.0.0.110]) by kagate1.punkt.de with ESMTP id m57Ki9iO065390; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hugo10.ka.punkt.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hugo10.ka.punkt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m57Ki9xg039323; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ry93@hugo10.ka.punkt.de) Received: (from ry93@localhost) by hugo10.ka.punkt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m57Ki8gJ039322; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ry93) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:44:08 +0200 From: "Patrick M. Hausen" To: Jo Rhett Message-ID: <20080607204408.GA39103@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> References: <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> <5CCF0D6E-56C1-4EBD-B8A6-955311F7851E@netconsonance.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <5CCF0D6E-56C1-4EBD-B8A6-955311F7851E@netconsonance.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Kris Kennaway , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:44:12 -0000 Hello, On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 01:28:21PM -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: > In rereading my quotes I may have not been clear on something. The vast > majority of these bugs have already been fixed. ("not in a state that needs > help identifying" was what I said trying to cover both that and known bugs > without a fix yet) > > However, the fixes are not available in a -RELEASE version of the operating > system. Yes. So what? Upgrading your systems to 6.3 takes _precisely_ the same amount of work as upgrading to "6-STABLE as of today 00:00 GMT". You may want to pick a different point of time, but it really doesn't matter, because a release _is_ just a CVS branch created at a certain time. > This is why EoLing 6.2 and forcing people to upgrade to a release > with lots of known issues is a problem. People who have issues with RELENG_6_3 should upgrade to RELENG_6 which is perfectly supported. Kind regards, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH * Kaiserallee 13a * 76133 Karlsruhe Tel. 0721 9109 0 * Fax 0721 9109 100 info@punkt.de http://www.punkt.de Gf: Jürgen Egeling AG Mannheim 108285 From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:45:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE965106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:45:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A072D8FC19 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:45:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57Kj7lY061181; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.023 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.023 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.154, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <1C8F6344-4D0B-415C-895C-549A0B4F9C05@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: "Patrick M. Hausen" In-Reply-To: <20080605155340.GA51833@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:45:00 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605155340.GA51833@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:45:19 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: > So he should at least be able to name the relevant PRs. > Or name at least one. Then nobody would complain. I'm sure somebody would complain ;-) but yeah, valid. Unfortunately I was on my 3rd day of less than 3 hours sleep and had to leave in less than 9 hours from my post, with 12 hours of work to do before then. I really honestly didn't have the time. I wanted to hold the post until I returned, but last time I did that I got dozens of accusations of sitting on it and speaking sooner, etc etc. I was hoping in my wishes-were-horses brain that someone would provide some insight into the issues that made obsoleting 6.2 a good idea, so that on my return I could determine how best to focus my efforts. > But stating "it's all well documented" without providing evidence > doesn't help. I for one was not able to find any open PRs that > deal specifically with 3ware hardware and 6.3, but not 6.[0-2]. ... > Agreed, but he should name the PRs he's referring to. > You know, my crystal ball is at the shop for a check, and > it seems like everybody else's is, too. Because focusing on the specifics never helps with policy issues. Every time I raise a policy issue and someone asks for specific bugs relevant, I answer them and the overall policy issue degrades into the merits of the specific problem, and usually into insults from people who don't understand why I don't replace X piece of hardware. The overall policy question gets lost. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:46:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13651065675; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31E48FC1A; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57Kj7lZ061181; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.973 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-2.103, DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX=3.899, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Chris Marlatt In-Reply-To: <48480D2E.2050006@rxsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:46:00 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> <48480D2E.2050006@rxsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Adrian Chadd , FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:46:12 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Chris Marlatt wrote: > I can certainly relate to a potentially standoff'ish approach that's > been seen recently. It's easy to take people's criticism as > completely negative regardless what is said. To be honest though - > people are using FreeBSD because it's a good project to say the > least. A few negative comments doesn't mean they think the whole > project is trash. Excluding the fact that we're all human and have > emotions / ego, you have to agree that such a hostile approach isn't > really the best thing. Thank you. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:51:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF165106566B; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:51:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06268FC0C; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:51:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57KpYdD061323; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.027 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.150, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Ken Smith In-Reply-To: <1212683649.90048.43.camel@bauer.cse.buffalo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:51:28 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <1212683649.90048.43.camel@bauer.cse.buffalo.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Kris Kennaway , Doug Barton , FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:51:47 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Ken Smith wrote: > As for re-defining extended support to mean 4 or 5 years instead of > just > two it's not clear us doing that (except for anomolies like 4.11) is > really in your best interests. :-) 2 years would be perfectly fine in my mind. I'd love to see 2 years of support for 6.2-RELEASE. 6.2 was (and *is* AFAIK) the most stable release of FreeBSD since 4.11 and it came out the door with less than 12 months of support intended. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:53:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F156A106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx23.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB268FC17 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 9760 invoked by uid 399); 7 Jun 2008 20:53:00 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 7 Jun 2008 20:53:00 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <484AF52A.108@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:52:58 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080606) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: FreeBSD Stable List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:53:02 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > I'd said nearly a dozen times that the issues I have aren't specifics. > I am questioning the overall policy for EoL here. Your concerns have been noted. You seem unwilling or unable to accept the explanation that no matter what you think about the situation, we don't have the resources to support 6.2. Furthermore, according to the vast number of people with way more experience and way more hardware running 6.3 than you have (jhb from Yahoo! alone qualifies in this category, but he wasn't alone) your concerns are in fact, misplaced. To drive this thread even further into the realm of uselessness, you seem to be dead set on replying to every single post, saying basically the same thing over and over, and not listening to anything anyone is telling you. So I would like to suggest that you simply stop. Enjoy your trip. When you come back if you have specific concerns about your EXPERIENCE running 6.3 (or later) on your specific hardware, fire away. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:55:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394761065675 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:55:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CBF8FC16 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:55:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from vampire.homelinux.org (dslb-088-064-182-012.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.64.182.12]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu2) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKwtQ-1K55Rh3P05-0004FA; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:55:29 +0200 Received: (qmail 44830 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2008 20:53:27 -0000 Received: from myhost.laiers.local (192.168.4.151) by router.laiers.local with SMTP; 7 Jun 2008 20:53:27 -0000 From: Max Laier Organization: FreeBSD To: Jo Rhett Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:54:42 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.9 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806072254.43405.max@love2party.net> X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+/t8URHlg1QwvpFJI2sqBUCD5XitA1qpXYGFp b5PV+A+lRMxtNIpO6fNCIcNAYoT1jUO0zC6nHIwdoGgOm2TzGy 8+QJiXKNFQev5uVJ81zSA== Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Steven Hartland Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:55:32 -0000 On Saturday 07 June 2008 21:41:18 Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:45 AM, Steven Hartland wrote: > > You are still fail to take to the time to even tell people what these > > bugs are, no ones a mind reader! > > > > People are trying to help you here but all I'm hearing is a child > > like "It doesn't work fix it", with no willingness to even explain > > what it is or provide resources to test if someone found the time to > > investigate > > your issues. > > Given this I don't see how you can expect these so called issues to > > ever get fixed. > > I think you are misunderstanding the point at hand. I'm not trying to > address specific issues. (I'd be happy to in another thread next > week). This thread was created to address the overall well-documented > list of bugs in 6.3, which is the *only* supported stable version of > the operating system. (7.0 is even less stable) > > The most stable (by numbers of bugs and numbers of reported problems) > is 6.2. > > I see no valid reasoning that can be backed up by numbers as to why > 6.2 should be EoL. That's the point I'm addressing. The specific > bugs that affect us are not necessarily relevant to the overall > stability. And anyone can do the same searches on the bug list to > confirm these numbers for themselves. Here is a cluebat for you: Messages in this flamboyant thread of yours: 113 and counting Messages in support of your claim not sent by yourself: 0 Now please: STFU or invest your time into something more productive. By the way, for somebody who claims to have no time to provide details about the bugs that make 6.3 so bad you seem to have a lot of time to send bogus emails (26 since Wednesday). If you had only spend a bit of that time into actual bughunting ... -- /"\ Best regards, | mlaier@freebsd.org \ / Max Laier | ICQ #67774661 X http://pf4freebsd.love2party.net/ | mlaier@EFnet / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 20:59:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E961065673; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:59:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6844E8FC16; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:59:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57KxJTd061450; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.025 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.025 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.152, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <257C4536-3862-42E5-A6CB-E353952AC97F@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:59:13 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Adrian Chadd , FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:59:35 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > I'm pretty sure the only person that's going to matter to is you. ... > This isn't the '80's, and we aren't in grade school. See above on > taking "no" for an answer. Doug, is this really necessary? Is this kind of response going to help? Chris, please accept my apology for having created this thread as it seems to have become nothing more than an opportunity for people talk nastily to others. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:01:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FA91065671; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD158FC16; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57L0mbB061497; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.023 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.023 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.154, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:00:39 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Adrian Chadd , FreeBSD Stable , Chris Marlatt Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:01:01 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Doug Barton wrote: >> It's quite possible what was proposed is an awful idea and if it is >> so be it. But it would appear as though it wasn't even considered. > > On the contrary. This, and lots of other ideas have been given very > careful consideration and have been rejected due to lack of > resources. There, feel better? > > Seriously folks, it's not as if we don't _want_ to be able to > provide better, longer, faster, $whatever support. We're just trying > to be realistic about what we can reasonably do with what we have > available. Doug, would you possibly (without attacking me?) give some insight into the issues here? This is what I was asking: what prevents supporting 6.2 ? Where could I best apply some of my time to improve the situation? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:03:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91DE106567F for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9962A8FC25 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57L33KJ061529; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.021 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.156, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] From: Jo Rhett To: Steven Hartland In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net><20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Message-Id: <08056909-E1BB-44D4-8DEC-D1A9EFC3E75D@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:02:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:03:16 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Steven Hartland wrote: > I have no sympathy for anyone who's going to moan about a previous > release > being desupported that isn't willing to put the effort in to make the > issues they are seeing get fixed. How do you know I haven't? Point of fact, I have. This thread was not about the specific bug fixes not yet available in a -RELEASE. This thread was to question the reasoning behind obsoleting 6.2 so very quickly. It's a policy issue, not a single bug report. It has more to do with the "X results" column in a PR search than any single one of the entries. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:06:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD3C106567A; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A6C8FC18; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57L6IqF061569; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.019 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.158, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4848249E.2050704@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:06:12 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <20080604204325.GD4701@lava.net><20080604234532.GA89656@k7.mavetju> <458FE12C-AE4D-48F9-8193-4663079CEEF8@netconsonance.com> <84EBEA5D3A1F47E79E8E12C4CF4D0314@multiplay.co.uk> <4848249E.2050704@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:06:34 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 10:38 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > When you do come back, your first message should contain a list of > PRs that you're concerned about, and confirmation (per jhb's > message) that you have the _exact_ hardware that is referred to in > them. If you can't provide that, don't bother. That's a very separate issue. I was asking about the policy reasoning. Fixing all of the bugs affecting my environment won't help me until they are -RELEASE, which is going to a take a lot of resources. A lot more than supporting 6.2, right? If not, please educate me. And please stop being nasty. I'd said much the same thing over the last 5 days, but I haven't once uttered a word about you not reading what has already been said repeatedly. Nor does that topic interest me. I am curious about the policy issue involved here. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:06:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26921065685 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx23.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A6E8FC1A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked by uid 399); 7 Jun 2008 21:06:34 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO lap.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 7 Jun 2008 21:06:34 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <484AF859.9060005@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:06:33 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080606) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Rhett References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:06:35 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > On Jun 5, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Doug Barton wrote: >>> It's quite possible what was proposed is an awful idea and if it is >>> so be it. But it would appear as though it wasn't even considered. >> >> On the contrary. This, and lots of other ideas have been given very >> careful consideration and have been rejected due to lack of resources. >> There, feel better? >> >> Seriously folks, it's not as if we don't _want_ to be able to provide >> better, longer, faster, $whatever support. We're just trying to be >> realistic about what we can reasonably do with what we have available. > > > Doug, would you possibly (without attacking me?) give some insight into > the issues here? This is what I was asking: what prevents supporting > 6.2 ? Lack of time on the part of the people that do the support. (As has been explained lots of times already.) I realize that you'd rather have an answer that gives you something to argue about, but there isn't one. > Where could I best apply some of my time to improve the situation? Backport patches that you find interesting or relevant to 6.2, and post on the -stable list to let others know where to find them. Doug (no, I'm not being flippant) -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:11:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7501065672 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413958FC0C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57LBYlN061683; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.017 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.160, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <1D5A0544-5ACA-4E60-8C6F-D62E4D2CB546@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Mark Linimon In-Reply-To: <20080605181832.GA31773@soaustin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:11:25 -0700 References: <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> <20080605181832.GA31773@soaustin.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:11:49 -0000 Mark, I'm confused by this message. You direct your message to me, but quote Kris and Chris and then using those comments attack me. I think you may have my own comments confused. Finally, I haven't asked for anything you are attacking me for here. You are apparently restating what you think I said into things and attacking me for those ... or something. I'm entirely confused by this message, sorry :-( On Jun 5, 2008, at 11:18 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 05:39:36PM +0200, Kris Kennaway wrote: >> You seem awful hostile - do you really think that's the best way to >> represent the project you're involved with? > > When confronted with "what you are doing is wrong, but I am not going > to tell you what it is because if you cared you'd already know" (my > summary of your past postings in this thread)? Possibly not 'best' > but > 'understandable'. > >> The option provided seems like a fairly good compromise to both >> interests. Pick 6.3 (or anything the release team wishes) to support >> for a longer period of time. > > If you want FreeBSD to be supported the same as a commercial product, > and you be able to dictate the terms, then it's not going to happen > completely via volunteer effort. At some point some money is going to > have to change hands. Either you pay someone at your company to do > support, or you hire someone external. > > Then you get to dictate what is supported and for how long. > Otherwise, > all you can do is to suggest. A "consensus statement" signed off on > by one person is the former -- not the latter. > > Now to add my own frustration to the list ... > > I next note that _after_ you said you had no more time to continue > with this thread for now (and thus could not yet give us pointers to > specific failures and any corresponding PR numbers), you are still > replying to email. Since you still seem to have some time, let me > help you do a little research here. > > Checking the PRs that you have submitted that are still current, none > of the src-related ones are from anything newer than 6.0R: > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?originator=Jo+Rhett > > There are some resources to help you find already-submitted PRs to > reference if it will help. (The latter 2 are new, and are attempts > by the bugbusting team to flag 'well-known problem' and 'PR indicates > regression'): > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/JeremyChadwick/Commonly_reported_issues > http://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/studies/prs/well_known_prs.html > http://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/studies/prs/prs_for_tag_regression.html > > Now I'll admit the following is a less-obvious query of the > database, but > it's my attempt to show regressions that we have already flagged in > 6.3: > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?release=%5EFreeBSD+6.3&category=kern&text=regression > > So these 4 links should give you some quick ways to generate some PR > numbers for us. > > Finally, here are some statistics about PR count: > > rel all kern > --- --- ---- > 6.0 210 91 > 6.1 217 81 > 6.2 396 102 > 6.3 167 56 > 7.0 563 140 > > To me, this doesn't look like an overwhelming case for 6.3 being worse > off than 6.2. Yes, I'm sure there are regressions: there are in any > release. > > mcl -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:16:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799AA1065681 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:16:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DD98FC1C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:16:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57LGWds061781; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.015 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.015 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.162, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Paul Schmehl In-Reply-To: <3E1DBCBBB1C614B1DBD0F166@utd65257.utdallas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:16:26 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <200806051023.56065.jhb@freebsd.org> <200806051910.20319.pieter@degoeje.nl> <3E1DBCBBB1C614B1DBD0F166@utd65257.utdallas.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: console access X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:16:44 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 11:35 AM, Paul Schmehl wrote: > It's not quite that simple. To do that, I have to block out time to > drive 45 miles during my supposed "off" hours and do the upgrade > there. Because, if it breaks networking and I'm at home, the server > will be down for at least an hour until I can drive to the hosting > company, get access to the server and restore the old kernel. Paul, you should arrange with your colocation provider to get an out of band serial connection to the system, and configure the console to go to the serial port. We provide that for free at $EMPLOYER and most other places I know of do it for free or nominal charge. Obviously an operation like ours has lights-out access to everything, but we have a dozen or so freebsd developers as customers, and they routinely rebuild their machines entirely without ever visiting the facility. GNN in particular lives in Japan these days so a colo visit would take him a day or two... -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:23:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535C51065671 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:23:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3078FC18 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:23:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57LMmPq061898; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.013 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.013 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.164, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <05D1299E-D2F2-4FB8-BD0B-D30B29764612@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Peter Jeremy In-Reply-To: <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:22:41 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:23:00 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > I agree that he has made those statements - and those statements may > even be true. When asked to provide details of the bugs or references > to those problems, he has refused. Random, unsubstantiated claims are > hardly evidence of anything. I didn't refuse, I said it wasn't relevant. I also offered to provide the list and hardware and time resources for testing if any developer needed it after June 11 (ie when it was physically possible to do so) for anyone who wanted to chase the individual issues. But the individual issues aren't the problem. No single problem would usually warrant that kind of attention. It's the overall amount of issues that concerns me. > To summarise, so far the OP has made a series of unsubstantianted > claims about vaguely defined problems on vaguely defined hardware. > When asked for more details, he has refused. Exactly what do you > expect the FreeBSD developers to do? Perhaps answer the question which was asked, instead of trying to drag the conversation down into specific bug reports? No single specific bug report is relevant to the overall topic. Fixing a single bug won't improve the situation. Anyway, I've said this a dozen times now so I won't be repeating it. You are welcome to continue ignoring it. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:30:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFCE106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:30:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8088FC24 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:30:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57LUCBY062008; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.012 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.165, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <48486962.7030001@samsco.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:30:06 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <74EB4162-74CB-4591-B7E5-8156BB56C29E@netconsonance.com> <48486962.7030001@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:30:26 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Scott Long wrote: > What is needed prior to talking about loaner systems and test cases is > for you to say, "Hardware XYZ isn't working for me anymore. It used > to > do FOO, and now it does BAR." That's the first step. It's a simple > step, but it's an essential step. Seriously. Scott, you are missing the point in your apparent desire to be rude. When there are bugs where something does not work (and nobody else has already reported it) I do open bugs. And more than 90% of my bug reports include patches too. I know how that works. The point is that 6.2-RELEASE works well for many people where 6.3- RELEASE does not. Until 6.4-RELEASE ships there will be a lot of unsupported systems. > And if you aren't > actually experiencing any problems, then all I can say is that your > input on the release and support process has been noted, and we all > look forward to bug reports from you in the future. And before you > circle back on the "but but but the PR database shows unresolved bugs" > argument, understand that few of us on this mailing lists are idiots; > we know how to read, and we are aware that there are PR entries. What > pushes a stalled PR along, though, is having an interested party bring > it up and offer insight into the specifics of it. Just pointing from > afar adds nothing to the process. You're welcome to disagree on that > point, Again, I'm not seeing anything other than you talking down to someone that (I think) you know from personal experience knows better than that. > but it seems pretty clear that continuing to argue it in this > forum isn't really solving anything. You're right. As usual, people would rather insult and attack than address the issue which was raised. This is why I rarely bother with the mailing lists -- flame wars produce no code. > So I'll try one last time.... you seem to be concerned about possible > bugs in the the 3ware and broadcom drivers. Can you please provide > specifics on what you are concerned about? Any personal insight or > experience you have would be highly helpful and appreciated. As stated previously, I'll create another thread about the specific bugs that concern me upon my return. Those are not specifically relevant to the policy issue here. (and those threads will be created in the appropriate hardware-specific list instead of the general - stable mailing list) -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:34:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3FF106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kutulu@kutulu.org) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BAB8FC0A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kutulu@kutulu.org) Received: from basement.kutulu.org ([70.121.200.185]) by cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080607213411.NLAN28655.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@basement.kutulu.org> for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:34:11 +0000 Received: from [192.168.69.4] (wombat.jungle [192.168.69.4]) by basement.kutulu.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C08011440 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <484AFED9.1030209@kutulu.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:34:17 -0400 From: Mike Edenfield User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Stable References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> <5CCF0D6E-56C1-4EBD-B8A6-955311F7851E@netconsonance.com> In-Reply-To: <5CCF0D6E-56C1-4EBD-B8A6-955311F7851E@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:34:12 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > This is why EoLing 6.2 and forcing people to upgrade to a release with > lots of known issues is a problem. You keep saying this as if it's somehow unusual that 6.3 has a lot of open bugs. Yet even a cursory look at the PR list (admittedly based just on the specific drivers you mentioned early on, but presumably a decent random sampling) shows that most of the remaining open issues in 6.3 are not new, and were present in 6.2 or even as far back as 6.0. Certainly there are plenty of issues that were fixed in 6.3 that were present in the 6.2 version you're already running. In other words, you haven't provided any real support to back up your claim that 6.3 is significantly "less stable", for whatever that means, than 6.2. Meanwhile, the vast majority of the anecdotal, first-person experience in running 6.3 in production indicates quite the opposite -- that it's *more* stable than 6.2. You've already stated that you don't want to side track this thread with specifics about your exact bugs. The problem is, without specifics to back up your claims of instability, they are (in your own words) little more than hyperbole. It shouldn't surprise anyone that you got a negative reaction to that kind of statement. --Mike From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:34:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B66F1065674; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:34:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel@skytek.it) Received: from mail.skytek.it (mail.skytek.it [217.194.176.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA6A8FC12; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:34:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel@skytek.it) Received: from [192.168.30.100] ([192.168.30.100]) by mail.skytek.it (Skytek Mail Server v.11.47-p9) with ASMTP id NBP18835; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:34:35 +0200 Message-ID: <484AFEF1.4040500@skytek.it> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:34:41 +0200 From: Daniel Ponticello User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: kernel panic on em0/taskq X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:34:36 -0000 Hello, i'm experiencing periodic kernel panics on a server with FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #0: Tue May 20 19:09:43 CEST 2008. My big problem is that the system is not performing memory dumping and/or automatic reoboot, it just stays there. Here' console output: em0: watchdog timeout -- resetting kernel trap 12 with interrupts disabled Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode cpuid = 0; apic_id = 00 fault virtual address = 0x14 fault code = supervisor read, page not present intruction pointerr = 0x20:0xc056e2ce stack pointer = 0x28:0xe537fc08 frame pointer = 0x28:0xe537fc28 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 29 (em0 taskq) trap number = 12 panic: page fault cpuid = 0 It just stays there, unresponsive (no automatic reboot). Any ideas? Thanks, Daniel -- WBR, Cordiali Saluti, Daniel Ponticello, VP of Engineering Network Coordination Centre of Skytek --- - For further information about our services: - Please visit our website at http://www.Skytek.it --- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:37:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA122106566B for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:37:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14E98FC15 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:37:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57LbIvF062149; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.167, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Mike Edenfield In-Reply-To: <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:37:11 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:37:26 -0000 On Jun 5, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Mike Edenfield wrote: > In short, the problem reports that the OP is looking at are not > immediately obvious to someone who doesn't already know what they > are, and he's not doing himself any favors by insisting that > everyone else "already knows" about these problems. If he's seen > these bug reports, presumably he knows what their PR #'s are, or at > the very least the description of the bugs, and it would be many > many times faster for him to just say so than continue to insist > that other people read his mind. Mike, could you do me a favor and provide me with a set of words that will make what I am trying to say on this topic clear? I keep saying the same thing over and over again and nobody is hearing me, so could you perhaps help me translate this? These are the raw issues without any friendly wording. 1. Bugs in 6.3 that are patched aren't available in any other -RELEASE. 2. Bugs in 6.3 outstanding that don't affect 6.2 3. Overall amount of bugs. 4. Difference in code base between 6.3 and 6-STABLE is > than 6.2 and 6.3 These combine to produce a release which will never be "stable" for production needs. Obviously the FreeBSD team(s) involved have to make choices. Perhaps there's nothing we can do to improve it other than work on the specific bugs. But does it hurt to ask why 6.2 was dropped so fast? What the real cost of supporting 6.2 until 6.4 ships is? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:46:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F9E106566B for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384878FC1F for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57Lkfgf062349; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:46:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.008 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.008 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.169, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <8E50CCF2-AAEF-4794-9AAA-9300DF36A45B@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:46:34 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:46:55 -0000 On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:08 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Three people replied to Jo Rhett's initial email. Here's what they > said, with Jo's own text elided: Among other things, you time-warped some of my comments into replies =20 to things people said to the comments themselves. But the most =20 crucial is that you dropped the entire point I was trying to make and =20= focused on someone else's desire to focus on the specific bugs, rather =20= than the overall policy issue. So your entire thread is misguided at =20= best. Specific bugs are always addressed on the PRs themselves or =20 the hardware-specific mailing list, not on the general -stable list. Even worse is your summary: > I won't pretend to know what Jo is thinking or what his motivation is, > but in my experience, when people respond in this manner, it's because > they know they have no solid data or arguments, and are trying to save > face. What face? Huh? Exactly what face do I have to save? Why on gods =20 green earth would I put saving face over system stability? I think =20 you are confusing me with someone who has time to spend all day =20 writing on mailing lists/forums and considers their reputation =20 important. You're dealing with exactly the opposite -- I rarely read =20= the mailing lists due to lack of time, and generally don't care what =20 people think of me as long as it doesn't get in the way of getting =20 work done. > I hope this helps you to better understand who's attacking who, and > who's being rude to who. You should perhaps start at the beginning and look at the questions I =20= asked, and then recreate the thread showing the responses to the =20 policy questions I have raised. Or just look at your own responses, which have never been less than =20 rude and not once even pretended to focus on the real questions. --=20 Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source =20 and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:49:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C524E106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:49:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3938FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:49:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57Ln1j1062399; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.006 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.006 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.171, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <85E92030-93B9-4460-B522-2C56FD091CBD@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Vivek Khera In-Reply-To: <264183D1-4324-405D-B737-1555A6FFFCE7@khera.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:48:54 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <7B3DA577-61F6-41D2-90B1-954E3A5A5C80@netconsonance.com> <264183D1-4324-405D-B737-1555A6FFFCE7@khera.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:49:10 -0000 > On Jun 4, 2008, at 8:22 PM, Jo Rhett wrote: >> If you're asking why I don't turn a production environment over to >> being a freebsd-unstable-testbed, I can't really answer that >> question in a way you'd understand (if you were asking that question) On Jun 6, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Vivek Khera wrote: > If you don't have an identical setup to test new software, then > you're pretty much not able to ever upgrade anything, IMO, and your > "production" environment *is* a testbed for new software. You clipped the part where I said exactly the same thing, and also explained why it wasn't really useful for the problems named. Are you done getting off a random pot-shot? Interested in focusing on the real questions? -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 21:59:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE713106566B; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:59:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42E68FC14; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:59:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57Lx2pS062513; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.005 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.172, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <2C3F6FAB-1B11-4F96-9F24-7CF6F44C0078@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Adrian Chadd In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:58:54 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:59:20 -0000 On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:41 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > As said before, the reason FreeBSD isn't supporting older 6.x releases > anymore is because there's just no manpower to do so. Which is what I was asking about. I've asked the questions more specifically since they apparently weren't phrased well the first time. It would be great to hear answers to those questions. > I still don't think you get it. FreeBSD is a community. A community > works when enough people contribute positively towards furthering the > goals of the project. Jo is a user. He sounds like he is using it in > some reasonably critical and money-earning roles. Jo can participate > by testing stuff on test hardware, reporting back issues and working > with the community. Which I do. If you check out my bug reports they almost always include patches. I've also added freebsd support to many projects, including full package management in the latest versions of cfengine. > Bitching about there being no long-term support > for releases isn't constructive. Some developer comments may not be > constructive either, but this is a -community project-. Join the > -community- and help out. Am I missing an ID card? Where should I go to acquire one? When there is a specific issue I can help with, I do. In this case I was asking about the justification for dropping support so quickly. > It doesn't matter if running a long-term support project would be > beneficial for a certain subset of the userbase, its a losing > situation to cater to them unless they somehow contribute back to the > community. I work on bugs for things I can help with. I add freebsd support to various projects. I test and report bugs on new releases. I spend at least 10% (and sometimes more) of my paid $EMPLOYER's time working on freebsd things, and countless hours of unpaid time. I don't know that I can do any more than this. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:00:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F8E1065670 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:00:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dick@nagual.nl) Received: from nagual.nl (cc20684-a.assen1.dr.home.nl [82.74.10.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BAF8FC16 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:00:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dick@nagual.nl) Received: from westmark (westmark.nagual.nl [192.168.11.22]) by nagual.nl (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/yanta) with ESMTP id m57M0mpY015762 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:00:08 +0200 From: Dick Hoogendijk To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080608000008.00004a91@westmark> In-Reply-To: <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> Organization: de nagual X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.4.0 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-pc-solaris2.11) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 192.168.11.35 Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:00:23 -0000 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:37:11 -0700 Jo Rhett wrote: > These are the raw issues without any friendly wording. > > 1. Bugs in 6.3 that are patched aren't available in any other > -RELEASE. 2. Bugs in 6.3 outstanding that don't affect 6.2 > 3. Overall amount of bugs. > 4. Difference in code base between 6.3 and 6-STABLE is > than 6.2 > and 6.3 > > These combine to produce a release which will never be "stable" for > production needs. You are in fact saying 6.3-RELEASE should not have been released at the time it was. It should have been posponed 'till some open bugs were solved. I agree with you that a RELEASE is supposed to be more mature / stable then a development version. And you state it is -not- -- Dick Hoogendijk -- PGP/GnuPG key: 01D2433D ++ http://nagual.nl/ + SunOS sxde 01/08 ++ From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:00:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFAC106566C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp8.server.rpi.edu (smtp8.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F5E8FC0C for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp8.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m57M0rFv010120; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:00:53 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <08056909-E1BB-44D4-8DEC-D1A9EFC3E75D@netconsonance.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@ samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806 050248.59229.max@love2party.net><20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <08056909-E1BB-44D4-8DEC-D1A9EFC3E75D@netconsonance.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:00:52 -0400 To: Jo Rhett From: Garance A Drosehn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-RPI-SA-Score: undef - spam scanning disabled X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.228 Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:00:55 -0000 At 2:02 PM -0700 6/7/08, Jo Rhett wrote: > >This thread was to question the reasoning behind obsoleting 6.2 so >very quickly. It's a policy issue, not a single bug report. It has >more to do with the "X results" column in a PR search than any >single one of the entries. Some CLARITY: There is not a single committer that I know of who is convinced by your argument that we (committers) should sign up for the additional work of supporting 6.2 for an additional 6 months. That is the answer to your "policy concern". Let me say again: *That* is the answer to your policy concern. and: That *is* the answer to your policy concern. and: That is the answer to your *policy* concern. If you have specific issues that you experience with 6.3, then several committers are still willing to investigate those issues, because those would (presumably) help other users who have already upgraded to 6.3. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosehn@rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:02:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD041065691; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:02:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AF28FC19; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:02:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57M2Cob062671; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:02:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.174, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <3FF6BF7B-F3C6-486C-B482-1FA1D900CC47@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Kostik Belousov In-Reply-To: <20080607085607.GM94309@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:02:05 -0700 References: <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> <20080607085607.GM94309@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Adrian Chadd , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Paul Schmehl Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:02:21 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 1:56 AM, Kostik Belousov wrote: > Comparing us with, e.g., Solaris, we would not find a lot of > difference > in the support model. Althought they formally provide patches for Huh? I'm totally not saying that you should be trying to match the support model of a large corporation, this statement is outright wrong. I can still get security patches for Solaris 2.8 which shipped almost 6 years ago now. Again, I'm not saying that 6 years is reasonable for FreeBSD - just pointing out that the statement is invalid. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:05:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE02E1065689 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:05:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76668FC14 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:05:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57M59QN062839; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.176, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Dick Hoogendijk In-Reply-To: <20080607215930.000034e6@westmark> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:05:03 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846E637.9080101@samsco.org> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <484736E0.6090004@samsco.org> <4847D5F8.80605@FreeBSD.org> <37414AAF-C75A-4292-A174-2198BEF2A7DF@netconsonance.com> <20080607215930.000034e6@westmark> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CLARITY re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:05:20 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Dick Hoogendijk wrote: > I still think your questions are legitimate. > You won't win the battle however. Obviously I got a battle, but that wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to understand the issues involved and from that determine how I might be able to help. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:05:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78301065684 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:05:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp8.server.rpi.edu (smtp8.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F67A8FC0A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:05:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp8.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m57M5g1F010968; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:05:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:05:42 -0400 To: Jo Rhett From: Garance A Drosehn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-RPI-SA-Score: undef - spam scanning disabled X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.228 Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:05:45 -0000 At 2:37 PM -0700 6/7/08, Jo Rhett wrote: > >Mike, could you do me a favor and provide me with a set of words >that will make what I am trying to say on this topic clear? I keep >saying the same thing over and over again and nobody is hearing me, >so could you perhaps help me translate this? The fact that we reject your request that we provide further support for 6.2 does not mean we did not understand the question. It is you who are not understanding the reply. What you are asking for is *SUPPORT* for 6.2. That implies that we need to guarantee we will spend time *WORKING* on 6.2. We see no benefit in doing that. We would much rather spend that time to improve things in 6.3, because 6.3 is one of the branches we are supporting. As soon as you can tell us how we "support" 6.2 without *working* on 6.2, then maybe you'll have a more attentive audience. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosehn@rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:09:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F790106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:09:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC378FC20 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:09:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57M9KS9023172; Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:09:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m57M9JX7023171; Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:09:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200806072209.m57M9JX7023171@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, jrhett@netconsonance.com, Ken Smith , Kris Kennaway , Doug Barton , Chris Marlatt In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-stable User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:09:21 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:09:23 -0000 Jo Rhett wrote: > Ken Smith wrote: > > As for re-defining extended support to mean 4 or 5 years instead of > > just > > two it's not clear us doing that (except for anomolies like 4.11) is > > really in your best interests. :-) > > 2 years would be perfectly fine in my mind. I'd love to see 2 years > of support for 6.2-RELEASE. > > 6.2 was (and *is* AFAIK) the most stable release of FreeBSD since 4.11 > and it came out the door with less than 12 months of support intended. I'm running various FreeBSD versions on lots of machines at customers and our own offices. Among them are about 40 servers with various types of bge(4) chips, and some machines use gmirror. AFAIK we don't have machines with 3ware adapters, so I can't comment on that. But the bge(4) driver runs better with 6.3, 7.0 and 6/7-stable than it did with 6.2. We never had any gmirror problems, so it's neither worse nor better. It just works as expected. Overall I regard *both* 6.3 and 7.0 more stable than 6.2. I'm in the process of bringing most machines to 7.0 or 7-stable, and so far it goes very well. In some cases the performance has noticably improved, especially on multicore servers. I haven't experienced any stability problems so far. I'm with FreeBSD since 2.0.5-Release. I think 7.0 is the most stable dot-zero release that the project ever had. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:12:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28061065671 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2458FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57MBppJ062988; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.177, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <4004D1C8-58E4-46E7-B735-4F1CDC5BCCB4@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: "Patrick M. Hausen" In-Reply-To: <20080607204408.GA39103@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:11:42 -0700 References: <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <4847FFDE.8000209@FreeBSD.org> <48480473.3010009@rxsec.com> <484808B8.8070506@FreeBSD.org> <5CCF0D6E-56C1-4EBD-B8A6-955311F7851E@netconsonance.com> <20080607204408.GA39103@hugo10.ka.punkt.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:12:02 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 1:44 PM, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: > Upgrading your systems to 6.3 takes _precisely_ the same amount > of work as upgrading to "6-STABLE as of today 00:00 GMT". No, it doesn't. You can get to 6.3 with freebsd-update. And you can stay patched with freebsd-update on a -RELEASE. For a corporation to choose to stick with -RELEASE makes perfect sense, and it specifically what the -RELEASE versions were intended for. > You may want to pick a different point of time, but it really > doesn't matter, because a release _is_ just a CVS branch created > at a certain time. >> This is why EoLing 6.2 and forcing people to upgrade to a release >> with lots of known issues is a problem. > > People who have issues with RELENG_6_3 should upgrade to RELENG_6 > which is perfectly supported. I'm sorry, but you clearly don't run RELENG_6 on anything. I run it on two home computers, and grabbing it on any given day and trying to run with it in production is insanity. Lots and lots of things are committed, reverted, recommitted, reverted and then finally redesigned. Each of those steps are often committed to the source tree. The -RELEASE versions prevent this kind of insanity. I'm struggling to find a phrase here that can't be taken to be an insult, so forgive me and try to understand when I say that you really should try watching the cvs tree for a bit before making a nonsense comment like that. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:15:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2A01065671; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:15:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481948FC14; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:15:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57MFm0p063044; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.179, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <484AF52A.108@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:15:42 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> <484AF52A.108@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:15:58 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >> I'd said nearly a dozen times that the issues I have aren't >> specifics. I am questioning the overall policy for EoL here. > > Your concerns have been noted. You seem unwilling or unable to > accept the explanation that no matter what you think about the > situation, we don't have the resources to support 6.2. I haven't been given an explanation. I was given that bare statement. An explanation might help me understand where I can help improve the situation. > Furthermore, according to the vast number of people with way more > experience and way more hardware running 6.3 than you have (jhb from > Yahoo! alone qualifies in this category, but he wasn't alone) your > concerns are in fact, misplaced. The people that I know of working around problems in 6.3 all work at Yahoo, so ... > To drive this thread even further into the realm of uselessness, you > seem to be dead set on replying to every single post, saying > basically the same thing over and over, and not listening to > anything anyone is telling you. So far I have been (a) insulted (b) told to "take it or leave it" or (c) demanded to provide specific PRs. Nobody has responded to the question. > So I would like to suggest that you simply stop. Enjoy your trip. > When you come back if you have specific concerns about your > EXPERIENCE running 6.3 (or later) on your specific hardware, fire > away. I suspect you are right, it's time to stop dealing with FreeBSD. The product is quality, but the abuse one has to sustain to ask a question on the mailing list isn't worth it. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:21:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D3D1065674 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:21:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8628FC14 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:21:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57MLFwA063149; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:21:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.181, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <9C465B6B-5784-4622-9B89-1FD24A08AF18@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Garance A Drosehn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:21:08 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:21:30 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > Your concern has been noted and rejected. My actual questions were never answered. > you are "challenging" others to support 6.2 for you. For free. No, I never did that. I asked why it was a good idea. And I have always offered to help, and have always helped as much as I could with anything to do with freebsd. For free :-) > Several committers have offered to look at any bugs which prevent you > from going to 6.3, and you don't want to hear about that. No, I said I would provide all those details as soon as I could. > workload is such that you don't really want to even look at any > FreeBSD changes this year, and you assume that our workload is such Are you just making this stuff up? My only comments about workload was that it was on my schedule for May, then June... I could totally do this upgrade NOW if it was feasible. > Your challenge has been read by many committers, and your challenge > has been found lacking, impractical and uninteresting. Now, is it > true that every single freebsd committer must reply to this thread > and tell you "Sorry, but No"? And we must all be nice while we do > it, or we'll also be lectured about our manners? I find it sad that again you find it more interesting to be insulting that to respond in a helpful manner to the questions raised. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:24:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3421E1065688 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:24:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4018FC12 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:24:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57MNvHX063217; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.005 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.182, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Garance A Drosehn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:23:51 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@ samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806 050248.59229.max@love2party.net><20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <08056909-E1BB-44D4-8DEC-D1A9EFC3E75D@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:24:04 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > There is not a single committer that I know of who is convinced > by your argument that we (committers) should sign up for the > additional work of supporting 6.2 for an additional 6 months. I never asked for that. > That is the answer to your "policy concern". > Let me say again: > *That* is the answer to your policy concern. > and: > That *is* the answer to your policy concern. > and: > That is the answer to your *policy* concern. NICE. Go with the insults. Nothing better than pissing off people who work for you for free. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:26:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76520106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:26:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFCC8FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:26:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57MQCZ8063257; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.007 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.007 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.184, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: <1B48EFB7-C3CB-4568-BB86-7CF54A785B94@netconsonance.com> From: Jo Rhett To: Dick Hoogendijk In-Reply-To: <20080608000008.00004a91@westmark> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:26:06 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> <20080608000008.00004a91@westmark> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:26:23 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Dick Hoogendijk wrote: > You are in fact saying 6.3-RELEASE should not have been released at > the > time it was. It should have been posponed 'till some open bugs were > solved. I agree with you that a RELEASE is supposed to be more > mature / > stable then a development version. And you state it is -not- That's direct criticism that I am not willing to make of the contributors. I'm sure everyone did the best they could, and with what they knew at the time. I'm saying that now, in retrospect, it doesn't appear to be a stable release. Forcing everyone to upgrade to a unstable release doesn't seem likely to help improve the situation. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:29:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064281065675 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:29:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from mail.netconsonance.com (mail.netconsonance.com [198.207.204.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26628FC0A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:29:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) Received: from 4.151.178.10.in-addr.arpa (m420e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netconsonance.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m57MTGBq063297; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:29:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhett@netconsonance.com) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netconsonance.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.008 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.008 tagged_above=-999 required=3.5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.44, AWL=-0.185, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.617] Message-Id: From: Jo Rhett To: Garance A Drosehn In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:29:09 -0700 References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:29:28 -0000 On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > The fact that we reject your request that we provide further support > for 6.2 does not mean we did not understand the question. It is you > who are not understanding the reply. At the very least, I phrased my question badly. Because I asked "why" and I heard "no". And "no" is not an answer to "why". I still haven't heard the why. > What you are asking for is *SUPPORT* for 6.2. That implies that we No, I never asked for that. Depending on the answer to "why" I was going to decide what my choices were for helping out and improving the situation in some form. Without the "why" I haven't the foggiest idea how to help. (for already well known bugs which don't need my time/ effort/attention) -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 22:56:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8653106564A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:56:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp5.server.rpi.edu (smtp5.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.225]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9104F8FC1D for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:56:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp5.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m57Lk1dL027286; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:46:03 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <80D7EE2D-A970-407B-A42C-AD17500BC463@netconsonance.com> <861w3cf2pj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <2892DF94-B346-4F36-9D32-165A2EA462D1@netconsonance.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:46:00 -0400 To: Jo Rhett From: Garance A Drosehn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-RPI-SA-Score: undef - spam scanning disabled X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.225 Cc: FreeBSD Stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:56:57 -0000 At 1:04 PM -0700 6/7/08, Jo Rhett wrote: >On Jun 5, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >>If you have issues with 6.3, your time would be better spent reporting >>them (by which I mean describe them in detail) than waving your hands in >>the air and yelling at people. > >Must you resort to nonsense and hyperbole? > >I'd said nearly a dozen times that the issues I have aren't specifics. >I am questioning the overall policy for EoL here. Your concern has been noted and rejected. Since you obviously are not the FreeBSD project, there will be nothing gained by repeating your concern for the thirtieth time. It is getting mighty annoying that you are "challenging" others to support 6.2 for you. For free. Several committers have offered to look at any bugs which prevent you from going to 6.3, and you don't want to hear about that. Your workload is such that you don't really want to even look at any =46reeBSD changes this year, and you assume that our workload is such that we could painlessly continue to guarantee support for the specific release that you want to stick with for another year. Sorry, but we're busy too. We are not changing the rules on you. When you upgraded to 6.2, we announced when the EOL would be. We extended that once already. You have not provided a compelling argument why we should extend it again. In some ways, I can understand your concern. My own manager has very similar opinions to yours. He solved it by choosing linux and buying into the "Enterprise Edition"s of Redhat. 5 years of support. I suggest you look into that option. It seems better suited to your needs. It is a sad truth that the FreeBSD project is not able to be everything to everybody, but there it is. As much as we might like to, but we simply can't. Perhaps you can find a number of other people who love 6.2 and hate 6.3, and together you can pay someone to support 6.2 for you. The way my manager pays Redhat for extended support. As Kris has noted, there has been nothing of value in this thread. Initially it looked like there might be, but the more you talk the less it seems you have a legit complaint. Your challenge has been read by many committers, and your challenge has been found lacking, impractical and uninteresting. Now, is it true that every single freebsd committer must reply to this thread and tell you "Sorry, but No"? And we must all be nice while we do it, or we'll also be lectured about our manners? -- Garance Alistair Drosehn =3D drosehn@rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 23:06:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E3C1065674; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:06:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1044cd13f0=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (core6.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8BD8FC16; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:06:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1044cd13f0=killing@multiplay.co.uk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=multiplay.co.uk; s=Multiplay; t=1212878797; x=1213483597; q=dns/txt; h=Received: Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=Q5V+te8Aqs5se6fTGeP7h pLXI62xrjcIlhvzGXlTPak=; b=pxQK9JGHlaU1v3u+W175zIXn37+2/xl8TGj70 zoOCMzVLRbvKNeMI0w85LnRAZntH1hHBtc9GPrKTfLDNVrrcWv52q6/XXKI9Hkh8 HiL96Y0jK2UAM46kyzkvBdphwAwP3hrhRP0NF1ABMzWrjAKjwi3IrwqZ9WyB3K3w KQ3rdI= X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.7 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from r2d2 by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (MDaemon PRO v9.6.5) with ESMTP id md50005727160.msg; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:46:36 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: Killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDRemoteIP: 212.135.219.182 X-Return-Path: prvs=1044cd13f0=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk Message-ID: From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Jo Rhett" , "Garance A Drosehn" References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com><48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org><6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com><200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net><20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org><902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu><20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org><34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu><48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org><52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:46:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:46:37 +0100 X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:46:37 +0100 Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:06:02 -0000 Seriously man, is it really necessary to reply to every single post? How about you spend some of that time and effort testing 6.3 or 7.0 instead of winging about things which may or may not in fact be any issue at all, as you have not even bothered to test. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Rhett" > No, I never asked for that. Depending on the answer to "why" I was > going to decide what my choices were for helping out and improving the > situation in some form. Without the "why" I haven't the foggiest idea > how to help. (for already well known bugs which don't need my time/ > effort/attention) ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 23:47:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D081065675 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:47:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB258FC13 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:47:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (cpe-74-77-179-53.buffalo.res.rr.com [74.77.179.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu (8.14.1/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m57Nlcn4060028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:47:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu) From: Ken Smith To: Jo Rhett In-Reply-To: <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-bnqouZLPRbcNqFe/S59c" Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:47:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1212882453.94878.51.camel@neo.cse.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: phoebe.cse.buffalo.edu 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 Cc: freebsd-stable Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:47:40 -0000 --=-bnqouZLPRbcNqFe/S59c Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 14:37 -0700, Jo Rhett wrote: > These are the raw issues without any friendly wording. >=20 > 1. Bugs in 6.3 that are patched aren't available in any other -RELEASE. > 2. Bugs in 6.3 outstanding that don't affect 6.2 > 3. Overall amount of bugs. > 4. Difference in code base between 6.3 and 6-STABLE is > than 6.2 and =20 > 6.3 >=20 > These combine to produce a release which will never be "stable" for =20 > production needs. The issue seems to be that we see no evidence that there is any significant volume to your item #2, and that's why you are receiving so much push-back on this. And that's what you are being asked for evidence of. That is the ONLY thing that should be preventing you from upgrading to 6.3. Item #1 can't be addressed at all and affects you while you're running 6.2 just as much as it would affect you running 6.3. Item #3 is irrelevant in most peoples' eyes because again we see no evidence that those bugs that would be part of #3 are not in 6.2 as well as 6.3. Item #4 is also a non-issue since there is no telling if any of that code that's changed affects something that you would notice. For example if a chunk of the code that's changed between 6.3 and 6-STABLE were an amd(8) import that has absolutely no relevance to any of this discussion, 6.3's overall stability, etc. As for your overall question of "Why can't 6.2 continue to be supported?" I answered that but from your reply it seems you may not have quite understood it. We typically support the LAST release in a branch for 2 years, it's typical to not support the earlier releases that long. That is based on the theory that we don't have regressions, and that if we do have regressions we fix them with Errata Notices. We did indeed have a major regression with 6.3 - there was a problem with the threads libraries which has been fixed with an Errata Notice. As I say the reason for so much push-back seems to be the lack of any concrete evidence that there are major regressions (by definition a regression being something that had worked in 6.2 that is broken in 6.3). From peoples' experiences and their surveys of the PR list we have not seen any evidence of the regressions you say you are concerned about - it seems like anything that would affect you in 6.3 should also be affecting you in 6.2. Since we all seem to be unable to find what you are concerned about could you please (when you have time - I have noticed you said you were time-crunched) let us know what they are? Given that perhaps we can address the issues and do Errata Notices. You have also asked about costs. A large one is the time of the volunteers on the security team. We take Security Advisories and Errata Notices VERY seriously - we try very hard to make sure that what gets posted is absolutely correct. That means applying the patches to all branches concerned and testing them as best we can. As code ages some of the more complicated patches can cause concern that they're not quite right for the older code because of fundamental changes that have been made (for example locking kernel data structures is hard, at times extremely complex, and what you need to "watch out for" can change over time even within a X-STABLE branch). And there is some cost in time/energy/resources to maintain FreeBSD-Update support. Those things don't mean we can't continue support of 6.2, but they do mean it requires effort. And again we can't seem to find any evidence that the effort is needed since we can't seem to find any evidence of *regressions* in 6.3. So when you've got the time let us know what evidence it is we're missing. And again, pointing at the CVS repository and saying "lots changed" isn't evidence. That's completely irrelevant because of many things including what I mentioned above (e.g. an import of vendor code shows up as changed code in our CVS repository but for the purposes of this discussion it's irrelevant). --=20 Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | --=-bnqouZLPRbcNqFe/S59c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkhLHhUACgkQ/G14VSmup/Z03wCdHckc5laQbiJ2mo/di+Nb5EfF sVEAn0gb6o7ZA80BHjtcnZdDUe6iDlLB =EeH+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-bnqouZLPRbcNqFe/S59c-- From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 23:56:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA921065672 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp5.server.rpi.edu (smtp5.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.225]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79918FC4A for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp5.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m57NuFiE017388; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:56:16 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <48488D1A.9070105@kutulu.org> <52E265BB-BBB1-439D-B375-D6C6AA04697C@netconsonance.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:56:14 -0400 To: Jo Rhett From: Garance A Drosehn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-RPI-SA-Score: undef - spam scanning disabled X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.225 Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:56:19 -0000 At 3:29 PM -0700 6/7/08, Jo Rhett wrote: >On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Garance A Drosehn wrote: >>The fact that we reject your request that we provide further support >>for 6.2 does not mean we did not understand the question. It is you >>who are not understanding the reply. > >At the very least, I phrased my question badly. Because I asked >"why" and I heard "no". And "no" is not an answer to "why". I >still haven't heard the why. Apparently the email with this answer from Doug Barton did not reach you: Lack of time on the part of the people that do the support. (As has been explained lots of times already.) I realize that you'd rather have an answer that gives you something to argue about, but there isn't one. Nothing has changed since his email. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosehn@rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA