From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 20 11:05:00 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C6D1065679 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:05:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john_re@fastmail.us) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97738FC08 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:04:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.internal [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBAEDC794F for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from vweb8.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.38]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:04:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:subject:date; s=smtpout; bh=rhvgFC+StjlWL21/w4uaimjhTlI=; b=ZP3jIK+IubSsigkELHPsEuSbU6JIbCQkpplHIHnQ8HSaePeVFQNgA0K1s9NVS/Dih3rn7pRpLNoiJC7WBC21zPoEFD6M0zWsF+6OsUo/xrgbznLdrWDR6MfNtUfat40eV/PFysO0ec/CgZ5lvgQAmJtzdHrbp9FWFSZBvEm9DeA= Received: by vweb8.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id AE00F953; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 06:04:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1261307098.15605.1350992015@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: srb5W0HDxbbXYZo1eIIAVZm8ZMZM12cPuChk2zzoT+xp 1261307098 From: "john_re" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:04:58 -0800 Subject: Dec 20 Global BSD & All Free SW HW Culture meeting - BerkeleyTIP X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:05:00 -0000 A great December Solstice to you & yours. :) JOIN the Global All Free SW, HW, Culture meeting via VOIP Dec 20 Sunday, 12N-3PM (Pacific = UTC-8) = 3P-6P Eastern = 8P-11P UTC [Jan 2009 meetings: 2nd, 17th - mark your calendar] http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/schedule == WATCH some VIDEOS: Mark Shuttleworth Interview - 10.04 Lucid Larynx Learning from Code History , Andreas Zeller Why does my program fail? Your version history might have the answer. Audio Hardware Enablement Session, UbuntuDevelopersSummit in Dallas Distributed Development, UDS in Dallas Splunk, Jeremy Thurgood CLUG Upstart, Stefano Rivera CLUG Interfacing with the real world, Mark Ter Morshuizen, Marc Welz CLUG Accelerating Graphics; Camp KDE 2009 http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/talk-videos == Join the MAILING LIST & tell us which videos you will watch & why: http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal == JOIN the meeting via IRC & VOIP: Come discuss any & everything, & work on your individual or group projects. HOT TOPICS: Ub or KUb 9.10?, Ubuntu 10.04 plans, Android, Python3000 in 2010? Start on the #berkeleytip irc.freenode.net channel, & we'll help you get your VOIP system up & working. For VOIP SW, & connection info, see: http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/remote-attendance Berkeley meeting LOCATION: Watch the website & mail list for latest details, perhaps at the Berkeley Public Library, or a cafe, due to Free Speech Cafe closed for winter break. http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/ == OPPORTUNITIES to VOLUNTEER or learn new JOB SKILLS for 2010: Help set up our: Mailing list, FreeSwitch VOIP server, website http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/opportunities Inquire & discuss at the meeting. == For Forwarding - You are invited to forward this announcement wherever it would be appreciated. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 08:40:09 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C930F1065692 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E20D8FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBM8e9PL025746 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:09 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBM8e9DG025743; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:09 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:09 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200912220840.nBM8e9DG025743@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, ktnugdbj Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F481065672 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:33:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nobody@FreeBSD.org) Received: from www.freebsd.org (www.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8106C8FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:33:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from www.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBM8XS6d019043 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:33:28 GMT (envelope-from nobody@www.freebsd.org) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBM8XSZv019042; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:33:28 GMT (envelope-from nobody) Message-Id: <200912220833.nBM8XSZv019042@www.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:33:28 GMT From: ktnugdbj To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-3.1 Cc: Subject: advocacy/141866: ktnugdbj X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:09 -0000 >Number: 141866 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: ktnugdbj >Confidential: no >Severity: serious >Priority: high >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: sw-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Tue Dec 22 08:40:09 UTC 2009 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: ktnugdbj >Release: ktnugdbj >Organization: ktnugdbj >Environment: ktnugdbj >Description: nezxugbw [URL=http://lrbppsoc.com]bgfvcrnb[/URL] rqiobmtq http://szdqoigz.com lxlhtdwe zmqicizv >How-To-Repeat: ktnugdbj >Fix: ktnugdbj >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 08:50:02 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9AF1065693 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:50:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF69A8FC1A for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:50:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBM8o2Rb034685 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:50:02 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBM8o2rj034684; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:50:02 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:50:02 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200912220850.nBM8o2rj034684@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, yeeojadi Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7971065711 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nobody@FreeBSD.org) Received: from www.freebsd.org (www.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F668FC28 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from www.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBM8eTUL030213 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:29 GMT (envelope-from nobody@www.freebsd.org) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBM8eTiD030212; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:29 GMT (envelope-from nobody) Message-Id: <200912220840.nBM8eTiD030212@www.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:40:29 GMT From: yeeojadi To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-3.1 Cc: Subject: advocacy/141877: yeeojadi X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:50:03 -0000 >Number: 141877 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: yeeojadi >Confidential: no >Severity: critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: doc-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Tue Dec 22 08:50:02 UTC 2009 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: yeeojadi >Release: yeeojadi >Organization: yeeojadi >Environment: yeeojadi >Description: wyekkuim http://obbvjglm.com yiaufzmu ugerhfmh >How-To-Repeat: yeeojadi >Fix: yeeojadi >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 09:14:46 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7162A1065676; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:14:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brucec@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491838FC0C; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:14:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBM9Ek93062004; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:14:46 GMT (envelope-from brucec@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from brucec@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBM9EkCu062000; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:14:46 GMT (envelope-from brucec) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:14:46 GMT Message-Id: <200912220914.nBM9EkCu062000@freefall.freebsd.org> To: gnqcryxd@yqqwybcf.com, brucec@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: brucec@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Re: junk /141866: ktnugdbj X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:14:46 -0000 Synopsis: ktnugdbj State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: brucec State-Changed-When: Tue Dec 22 09:14:26 UTC 2009 State-Changed-Why: spam http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=141866 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 09:15:12 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E2A1065693; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brucec@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1268FC22; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:15:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBM9FBPF062053; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:15:11 GMT (envelope-from brucec@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from brucec@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBM9FBlF062049; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:15:11 GMT (envelope-from brucec) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:15:11 GMT Message-Id: <200912220915.nBM9FBlF062049@freefall.freebsd.org> To: spbdbtfs@vtgcfysj.com, brucec@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: brucec@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Re: junk /141877: yeeojadi X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:15:12 -0000 Synopsis: yeeojadi State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: brucec State-Changed-When: Tue Dec 22 09:14:51 UTC 2009 State-Changed-Why: spam http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=141877 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 01:12:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA4E106566B for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:12:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karel@lovetemple.net) Received: from mta-13.siol.net (mta-13.siol.net [193.189.160.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE448FC14 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:12:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-9.siol.net ([10.10.10.142]) by mta-14.siol.net with ESMTP id <20091222225836.JSST18014.mta-14.siol.net@mail-9.siol.net> for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:36 +0100 Received: from tp.unitedpeople.net ([89.143.26.44]) by mail-9.siol.net with ESMTP id <20091222225835.MCPK3721.mail-9.siol.net@tp.unitedpeople.net> for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:35 +0100 Message-ID: <4B314F19.6080802@lovetemple.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:33 +0100 From: Karel Miklav User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091011) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:12:27 -0000 Jan Husar wrote: > http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 Why a box is not an apple and how would we make a box look like an apple? That is a question! Because if we could turn all the boxes into apples, oh boy, how many apples would we have! Where all those apples would be stored in the world without boxes nobody knows, but let's just concentrate on doing one step at the time. Seriously, power consumers get enough confirmation from the salespeople and popular media, they should not be covered here. Or is there a need for positioning work regarding our project? -- Regards, Karel Miklav From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 03:24:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B693106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:24:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.80]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE6F8FC08 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:24:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from OMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.12]) by QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LRME1d0030Fqzac58TQEsr; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:24:14 +0000 Received: from comcast.net ([98.203.142.76]) by OMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LTQC1d0041f6R9u3UTQCZx; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:24:14 +0000 Received: by comcast.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:24:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:24:10 -0800 From: Charlie Kester To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5.20 X-Composer: VIM 7.2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:24:14 -0000 On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this article. As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a graphical installer? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 08:18:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6235F1065679 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shanecalimlim@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f190.google.com (mail-px0-f190.google.com [209.85.216.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377248FC16 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:18:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi28 with SMTP id 28so4694176pxi.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:18:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=bJXZR0ti96/HJynirLcdDgmL5M2hCwLwSJ7X8yPCu5g=; b=cqzlYN58tU7mztBYN4ronxFNEOCzGQGKrr18wPWnzGbvlXjmIr5LUOCROT8482cE+j PK0KQQgfFcZsQte4M/9Xsb2J23pc3OmELQY/y9/OOl70s1Ejpgr2QbM9rdeyB2xDW9xh C4A94f66+BmaM+rhf8PzV3BXXTa5PJs2Cab5I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=vPOt2kCYkorpqTgSI8BGwjse4Rq6C0O+PB25a6/jC8+xk/9ZmsghK25JNr7iZu9Jiv zqCxk9JuNtuQRN8TjC8mBoR/l36UxCeGp3ohhdGhPBat6NcQTXzL7qDbO4xOb7NwI19G ZBJ3acMb8zhglw7oAa4ajMaikTUayq3xHI0Gk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.101.25 with SMTP id d25mr6690520wam.46.1261554954767; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:55:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:55:54 -0800 Message-ID: <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com> From: Shane Calimlim To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:18:27 -0000 +1 to a better installer, graphical or not. I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only because I've done it so many times. The first few attempts were extremely frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense -- especially if something goes wrong. Please keep that in mind, everyone on this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you remember the first time(s) you used it? Know a fairly seasoned linux user that has never used FreeBSD? Sit them down at a machine and watch them try to install it. First impressions are important! I won't go into the gui vs non-gui installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is definitely a good thing. On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Charlie Kester wrote: > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: > >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 >> > > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this > article. > > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a > graphical installer? > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 08:38:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD21065672 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940458FC0C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBN8cNJT091013 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:24 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk nBN8cNJT091013 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=infracaninophile.co.uk; s=200708; t=1261557504; bh=l+7taof/cZ/kbJr+3pX1icE9giqY0d8q2+kHMxqDgpw=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Type:Date:From:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Mime-Version:References:To; z=Message-ID:=20<4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk>|Date:=20W ed,=2023=20Dec=202009=2008:38:17=20+0000|From:=20Matthew=20Seaman= 20|Organization:=20Infracaninophi le|User-Agent:=20Thunderbird=202.0.0.23=20(X11/20091129)|MIME-Vers ion:=201.0|To:=20freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org|Subject:=20Re:=20why =20BSDs=20got=20no=20love|References:=20<541b7a870912150733m4bc341 48j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com>=20<20091223032410.GA25393@comc ast.net>|In-Reply-To:=20<20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net>|X-Eni gmail-Version:=200.95.6|Content-Type:=20multipart/signed=3B=20mica lg=3Dpgp-sha256=3B=0D=0A=20protocol=3D"application/pgp-signature"= 3B=0D=0A=20boundary=3D"------------enig2CAA93472E216E91E48C3665"; b=xG6qhlQxeS3Dr+9H43KKJcXFBPdbQnuhU53jX5Jnx3O1afFVqkF+eoRAyNBqLgogp NZbf6/3gjhIA89HmKITyC3u5UKqw+7uzZgzumtaeXxXnw7BeuiNMqvEw3MbbDo/4Tf nUWgOKWPPt98CRkoDdmAavnwJwlwVAZj17TKgUwo= X-Authentication-Warning: happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk: Host localhost [IPv6:::1] claimed to be happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Message-ID: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:17 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091129) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig2CAA93472E216E91E48C3665" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VERIFIED,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig2CAA93472E216E91E48C3665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie Kester wrote: > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=3D1123&tag=3Dnl.e011 >=20 > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this > article. >=20 > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a > graphical installer? Heh. It's almost worth implementing a graphical installer just to shut up the constant moaning. While I agree that it is a very basic error to judge by form and appearance rather than by substance, unfortunately much= of the rest of the world appears not to agree. As a project, by not having this sort of layer of gloss on what is likely= to be the very first thing a new user sees we run the risk of putting off= complete neophytes who have no other basis on which to judge the OS, and who could otherwise develop into the next generation of capable users. =20 At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't hav= e sufficient skill to do. Or sufficient time.) I'd design an installer as= a CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do = the=20 installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to al= low users to create the installation script interactively. I think that woul= d fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended installs over serial lines. Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a complete failure. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW --------------enig2CAA93472E216E91E48C3665 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAksx1v8ACgkQ8Mjk52CukIy9PwCgjls18IMLxP2m1RWX9mkP3biP daQAnR31UfctJ+mZPkwPNjEYGaxnACDu =Si7f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig2CAA93472E216E91E48C3665-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 10:39:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F71106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:39:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from outbound-mail-306.bluehost.com (outbound-mail-306.bluehost.com [67.222.53.252]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A75188FC08 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:39:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 1255 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 2009 10:39:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by outboundproxy6.bluehost.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2009 10:39:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=PxzoBY3bXfcv64jV3NGFXVhUQGDblSq2hXwrIX1gTB8KgZyayUyu3Jdp4KwY9HRnGTphc7eTRu8C/n7B6jr/Wtb960lzw1qpAcSTiFvthIaeLOeWqfxQbJYtaRPfT7+h; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NNOdB-0003kG-UB for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:39:50 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:32:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:32:26 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" Message-ID: <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OBd5C1Lgu00Gd/Tn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:39:52 -0000 --OBd5C1Lgu00Gd/Tn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:33:49PM +0100, Jan Husar wrote: > http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=3D1123&tag=3Dnl.e011 By the way . . . as another writer at TechRepublic, I've written another article that responds substantially to what Jack Wallen said about the various BSD Unix systems in his article, "Why the BSDs get no love". My article has been submitted to the editor, and I believe it is slated to be auto-published next week while most (if not all) of the TR staff is off for the holidays under the title "Why security gets no love". While the actual core topic of the article is the deplorable lack of proper attention to security matters in the IT world in general, it uses Wallen's article as a springboard, and the beginning of it is largely a direct response to the "Why the BSDs get no love" article. I thought I'd bring it up here, since there has been some concern showed on this list about the content of Wallen's article. I'd wait until my article gets published to mention it here, so I could provide a direct URL to it at the time, but I might be electronically incommunicado at the time (Christmas vacation and all), so I figured I'd give anyone interested a heads-up that it's coming. I welcome any (hopefully constructive) feedback from the FreeBSD Advocacy list's members and the larger FreeBSD community, of course. For the record, this email was composed on my ThinkPad running FreeBSD 7.2. I mention FreeBSD from time to time in my security articles, and have been particularly focusing on some matters related to basic filesystem security this month in my TechRepublic articles. While I will probably have to lay off the FreeBSD stuff for a little while to keep the editors happy, I wouldn't mind suggestions from FreeBSD advocates for what other FreeBSD-related topics might make for good security article content in the future -- especially if they tie in strongly with more "mainstream" security topics. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --OBd5C1Lgu00Gd/Tn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAksx8bkACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKVUfgCdE6QLtZcW6BWIisni9RIkKfKE NtQAnii3qHSac7L77FquwsC6P9eoycEb =oHUS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OBd5C1Lgu00Gd/Tn-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 12:29:49 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A9F1065679 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:29:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from sour.ops.eusc.inter.net (sour.ops.eusc.inter.net [84.23.254.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875738FC08 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:29:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Trace: 4c7c706565722e73636861656665724068616d627572672e64657c38352e313736 2e3136332e32347c314e4e514c622d3030304e37432d44547c3132363135373133 3837 Received: from sour.ops.eusc.inter.net ([10.154.10.16] helo=localhost) by sour.ops.eusc.inter.net with esmtpsa (Exim 4.69) id 1NNQLb-000N7C-DT; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:29:47 +0100 From: Peer Schaefer To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:29:50 +0100 Message-Id: <1261571390.3837.5.camel@earth.sol> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 85.176.163.24 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: peer.schaefer@hamburg.de X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on sour.ops.eusc.inter.net); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: shanecalimlim@gmail.com Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:29:49 -0000 Exactly. That's what I meant when I said the installer is good but needs a little "polishing". --Peer Am Dienstag, den 22.12.2009, 23:55 -0800 schrieb Shane Calimlim: > +1 to a better installer, graphical or not. > > I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only > because I've done it so many times. The first few attempts were extremely > frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense -- > especially if something goes wrong. Please keep that in mind, everyone on > this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you > remember the first time(s) you used it? Know a fairly seasoned linux user > that has never used FreeBSD? Sit them down at a machine and watch them try > to install it. > > First impressions are important! I won't go into the gui vs non-gui > installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is > definitely a good thing. > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Charlie Kester wrote: > > > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: > > > >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 > >> > > > > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this > > article. > > > > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get > > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a > > graphical installer? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > > " > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 12:34:12 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACB0106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from sour.ops.eusc.inter.net (sour.ops.eusc.inter.net [84.23.254.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0728FC13 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:34:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Trace: 4c7c706565722e73636861656665724068616d627572672e64657c38352e313736 2e3136332e32347c314e4e5150712d3030304e62732d554d7c3132363135373136 3531 Received: from sour.ops.eusc.inter.net ([10.154.10.16] helo=localhost) by sour.ops.eusc.inter.net with esmtpsa (Exim 4.69) id 1NNQPq-000Nbs-UM; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:34:11 +0100 From: Peer Schaefer To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:34:14 +0100 Message-Id: <1261571654.3837.11.camel@earth.sol> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 85.176.163.24 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: peer.schaefer@hamburg.de X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on sour.ops.eusc.inter.net); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:34:13 -0000 On wednesday, the 23.12.2009, 08:38 +0000 Matthew Seaman wrote: > At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't have > sufficient skill to do. Or sufficient time.) I'd design an installer as a > CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do the > installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to allow > users to create the installation script interactively. I think that would > fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a > *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended > installs over serial lines. > > Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a > complete failure. > > Cheers, > > Matthew > BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but surely difficult to implement). From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 13:37:16 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE053106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:37:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from diana.db.net (diana.db.net [66.113.102.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D0C8FC17 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from night.db.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by diana.db.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A7922823 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:15:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from db by night.db.net with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNR5p-0008yB-Oj for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:17:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:17:33 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20091223131733.GA34302@night.db.net> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:37:16 -0000 On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 07:24:10PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote: > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: > >http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 > > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this > article. I believe this is because of a common misconception of what FreeBSD is. In essence FreeBSD would be the equivalent of the Linux kernel, except we have a userland integrated. No one would claim that the Linux kernel was a 'distro' that needed a GUI installer, yet some think that of FreeBSD. > > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a > graphical installer? No, but it would be great if there were some offerings in ports for those who wished to roll their own 'distro' ;-). -- - db@FreeBSD.org db@db.net http://www.db.net/~db From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 14:45:24 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C991065694 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:45:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from heidi.wyss@nordultra.com) Received: from tr15.bluewin.ch (tr15.bluewin.ch [195.186.18.83]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15BB68FC27 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:45:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from feegan.home (62.202.114.38) by tr15.bluewin.ch (The Blue Window 8.5.119.018.5.119.01) (authenticated as thorpen.garman) id 4B0E88BC00DB26CC for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:22:13 +0000 Message-ID: <4B322794.4000504@nordultra.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:22:12 +0100 From: Heidi Wyss User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20091223120018.47CA410656C2@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20091223120018.47CA410656C2@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:45:24 -0000 > I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only > because I've done it so many times. The first few attempts were extremely > frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense -- > especially if something goes wrong. Please keep that in mind, everyone on > this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you > remember the first time(s) you used it? Know a fairly seasoned linux user > that has never used FreeBSD? Sit them down at a machine and watch them try > to install it. > > First impressions are important! I won't go into the gui vs non-gui > installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is > definitely a good thing. > My first install of FreebSD, 5x, years ago, went smoothly, even with that not-so-smooth default install script, because I had first carefully read the handbook section on installing and hence had enough understanding about what I was trying to do that I was able to happily muddle through. I do recall that getting X up and running was not easy and may have taken an hour or so, but likewise, the FreeBSD handbook and a man page or two got me by. I was also very motivated, since my own migration to FreeBSD was not a happenstance whim, but researched and planned. Last week I did a fresh install of FreeBSD 8. It was more or less a snap (aside from some wee glitches, stuff like two WM dockapps I'd brought forward from an earlier desktop setup working, but literally throwing off millions of IO errors), either way, I found it rather easy only because I'd done it a few times before and knew how to deal with what might come up (and again, read the documentation when I didn't). From what I've seen, almost all users (even "advanced" ones coming from Linux) who try and fail to install FreeBSD indeed haven't read the handbook and aren't very willing to do so. The installation dialog does have some odd steps which, while no big thing for someone who's heeding the docs, will likely be seen as utter failures for someone who's not. Hence I see a FreeBSD installation as a "cultural" shift which doesn't work for most users, who (understandably, I guess) want an easy point-and-click installation. Likewise, most of the so very helpful and slick things about running a FreeBSD desktop, along with all those wonderful ports, come through at least some willingness to keep reading man pages, beginning with running the wholly automated compile scripts from a command line as root, never mind little tricks like typing "rehash" when the installation's done. A smooth graphical install program would very likely draw many new users to FreeBSD and may be the only way to do so. Moreover, with what looks to me like the almost wholly automated hardware detection now in Xorg 7.4, even X could be configured by scripts on the fly most of the time, with the installation optionally offering to end with a wide choice of windowed GUIs such as Gnome, KDE, FluxBox, WindowMaker and so on. Hey, with a few hundred thousand more desktop users, browser-embedded, native Flash might even show up! I did have to configure my Swiss keyboard manually though, which was slightly daunting (which is to say, took me about 15 minutes rather than 1 or 2) because the config terms for this kind of KB weren't straightforwardly defined. I'll end with this little tale, only to stir up thoughts: When I got the new versions of mplayer and vlc installed on FBSD8, I couldn't play most of my store-bought DVDs. Since I knew there had to be an easy fix, five minutes of searching on the Internet brought the easy fix (FreeBSD is so stable and reliable, once configured, I'd wholly forgotten about the CD/DVD device permissions), but how many so-called "mainstream" desktop users would get through that kind of glitch? Not many, however much someone like me, who's already quite delighted with FreeBSD, might wish otherwise. Heidi From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 14:50:43 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F4E106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:50:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91D28FC25 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from park.js.berklix.net (p549A6AA4.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.106.164]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBNEoeoG049469 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:50:40 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by park.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nBNEoUnS067810 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:50:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBNEoP1q063542 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:50:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:17 GMT." <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:50:25 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:50:43 -0000 Matthew Seaman wrote: > ... an installer as > a > CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do > the > installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to al > low > users to create the installation script interactively. I admit being seduced at times by graphical interfaces, but bland blue screens hide a lot of action & info CLI allows. I was told blind people need CLI, cos Braille output devices do one line of 40 chars, (& expensive; possibly mass production might lower costs / inrease resolution, but Braille is different for different languages, discouraging mass production ). Peer Schaefer wrote: > BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic > backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or > a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but > surely difficult to implement). Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg /usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg Which could then be edited by all of Front end CLI (*) Front end curses GUI (*) (*) Maybe these 2 alternatives should be the first question the installer asks ? Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete - Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone would probably want to write one). vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media, to auto install on multiple identical new machines. All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain: This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and will eventually be replaced. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text not quoted-printable, HTML or Base64: http://asciiribbon.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 15:00:12 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCBA106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:00:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tonyt@logyst.com) Received: from smtp.webfaction.com (mail6.webfaction.com [74.55.86.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FF08FC19 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:00:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pz0-f202.google.com (mail-pz0-f202.google.com [209.85.222.202]) by smtp.webfaction.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682B71C7557C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:00:11 -0600 (CST) Received: by pzk40 with SMTP id 40so4943225pzk.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:00:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.89.16 with SMTP id r16mr7198882rvl.290.1261580410643; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:00:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20091223131733.GA34302@night.db.net> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> <20091223131733.GA34302@night.db.net> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:00:10 +1100 Message-ID: <22166b750912230700s84ed17aw1dea98384ef56974@mail.gmail.com> From: Tony Theodore To: Diane Bruce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:00:12 -0000 2009/12/24 Diane Bruce : > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 07:24:10PM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote: >> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >> >http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 >> >> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this >> article. > > I believe this is because of a common misconception of what FreeBSD is. > In essence FreeBSD would be the equivalent of the Linux kernel, except > we have a userland integrated. No one would claim that the Linux kernel > was a 'distro' that needed a GUI installer, yet some think that of FreeBSD. I think of FreeBSD as kernel/base/ports, the equivalent in the Linux world would be a mix of Debian/Gentoo. In essence, FreeBSD is an operating system (the primary distro of the kernel) with derivatives that enable specific applications (FreeNAS, PC-BSD). I don't think anyone would claim FreeBSD is a kernel and userland that required arcane knowledge to install and run. I'd compare PC-BSD to Ubuntu, but even kernel/base has no real equivalent in the Linux world. I still wonder about the drive geometry messages though; but after many years, have learnt that I can safely accept what the bios is reporting. True, I'm ambivalent about a graphical installer, but I've bootstrapped installs from kernel and network drivers (for fun), and I don't think the current installer is clear or obvoius without the handbook (if only we could get people to read it!). >> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get >> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a >> graphical installer? > > No, but it would be great if there were some offerings in ports for > those who wished to roll their own 'distro' ;-). In many ways, the base/ports design is of itself a way to roll your own. Tony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 15:25:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC87106568D for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:25:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34428FC0A for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:25:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4855967pwi.3 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:25:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nn3imWD/DKI1h8gnhG9VrH1sd61J8HQZA7ST48BovFs=; b=Ff3arpcOiC8dFzhubP68IEiHPqBHguiPdrj3TqsSCtaut24cd+2QmEpU7q+5WBKp3K 2oRnseYiguSgbC49mDR4WRPrHg7lr/bHw96XISKPAK9mJDFday4s2bPEf98JMM2W9MQe 9tevIGxNAi/XiYBhFGRtQnr/emiBq8wQwnmgg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=oNdE8NSBwRCFn+9fIsO8D+QaHaEqUkwLJ4cJjr2pMS6YdwhkWW/LNTh0fTpn6PT/M5 b/nu7Jnqym3v0xdXhsR+LRmWiM5btCCPiKmB9SRZ+J9NQw6dj2Ps+l25pJENM5wguiJ3 4CzkYUlrjbqbz6hdzkhmXuxxQOO3VBDIaFnq0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.154.3 with SMTP id g3mr4124998wfo.143.1261580326731; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 992b389140fb8816 Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:25:30 -0000 On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Peer Schaefer wrote: > >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but >> surely difficult to implement). > > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg > Which could then be edited by all of > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end CLI =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (*) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end curses GUI =A0 =A0(*) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(*) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Maybe these 2 = alternatives should be > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the first = question the installer asks ? > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- Shudder,= Not that I'd use it, but someone > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0would = probably want to write one). > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to auto install on multiple identical new = machines. I would sooner stab myself in the face. > All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0will eventually be replaced. Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :) -- randi From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 15:48:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E7E1065692 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:48:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1028FC15 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:48:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from park.js.berklix.net (p549A6AA4.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.106.164]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBNFmqng050320; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:48:53 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by park.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nBNFmhK4068144; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:48:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBNFmcn3064359; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:48:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Randi Harper From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 PST." Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:48:38 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:48:56 -0000 Randi Harper wrote: > On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Peer Schaefer wrote: > > > >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic > >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or > >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but > >> surely difficult to implement). > > > > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg > >        /usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg > > Which could then be edited by all of > >        Front end CLI           (*) > >        Front end curses GUI    (*) > >                (*)             Maybe these 2 alternatives should be > >                                the first question the installer asks ? > >        Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete > >                                - Shudder, Not that I'd use it, but someone > >                                  would probably want to write one). > >        vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media, > >                to auto install on multiple identical new machines. > > > I would sooner stab myself in the face. Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ? I was trying to think of a unifying structure that would allow for variant personal preferences, inc. prefs to avoid some interfaces. (eg personally I've no use for X11 post install, or 'vi install.cfg` mass production install, but there's others it would attract). > > All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain: > >        This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and > >        will eventually be replaced. > > > Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until > then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :) Yes, & All will never agree, it's schismatic, sort of thing attractive to PCBSD DesktopBSD or Yet-Another-BSD forks/front ends, or about as endless discussion as which brewery brews best beer :-) Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text not quoted-printable, HTML or Base64: http://asciiribbon.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 16:04:21 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B0B106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:04:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236C98FC1C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4876288pwi.3 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:04:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zr26S/ck/XdAhhJ8mDjMyHnY9/OwYKbsb4pyamv/90A=; b=Lr/YporHuBBXdMEtgGDz14L+98iaudzaxheEUAXrUheLnQce7ZkkZrCwvrUDlzlDzK S8/jdPU3ldaOao8Z0JVZHUu/dgcbWRM5R2tFfJBqTqFdPGGuaVQu4j5dYNs9WoBQXsnl pejxXdFgQfyefmVnQ2gIeQamEwZH2yzAY9u9g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Ycso+Fo+AHW+3iUChB3vQquFolz7CsgG2C7cjh4vRUna5sNTV5mWPQ1ZE4av2OoVy6 Mehf77F7sCiUEGU0558lJ6Z5PnxOKDMl/Iz/5pYdkjrvox2/AgyJnjcoAUMnPnqhp0H3 m1pGZSHkvBOv3XGOujd/SEvL/Ip5x3t6Mftqo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.65.24 with SMTP id n24mr6866959wfa.312.1261584260827; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:04:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:04:20 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2ced22a4531edefe Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:04:21 -0000 On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Randi Harper wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrot= e: >> > Peer Schaefer wrote: >> > >> >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnosti= c >> >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend= or >> >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but >> >> surely difficult to implement). >> > >> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg >> > Which could then be edited by all of >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end CLI =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (*) >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end curses GUI =A0 =A0(*) >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(*) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Maybe these= 2 alternatives should be >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the fir= st question the installer asks ? >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complet= e >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- Shudd= er, Not that I'd use it, but someone >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0wou= ld probably want to write one). >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media, >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to auto install on multiple identical n= ew machines. >> >> >> I would sooner stab myself in the face. > > Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ? All of the above. The bug list for sysinstall is not small. Even if this wasn't the case, I'm not even going to work on introducing that many options and obfuscating the code that much more. The mere thought of the rewrite involved in adding that kind of support makes my head feel like the knife is already in place. The only support I've been *thinking* about adding is a simple CLI in addition to the existing libdialog (ncurses) install. This would still be a not insignificant modification, but there are issues that make using a libdialog based installer problematic on some displays. It's a fun idea to kick around, but it's not a priority. I don't even know what you mean by vi, but it sounds confusing and unnecessary. This is what install.cfg is for - so you can define the parameters of an installation beforehand. -- randi From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 16:11:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D5B1065694 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:11:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E47F8FC17 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:11:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4880109pwi.3 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:11:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gOHFTsgkNhsFqZDl/qoVYXuCl2EKxZeDQnkhphvEj2M=; b=EkcsJGYuOPVepbbU2ZpeOnT5BhcL8mTgW74y0dNAFF8Le9xAhiGY+/xG+gnBnDRioS ESzTqrui50AzC5Km+fm1Yvgt537vTPqYKtRGKgo0H4oZk41cPedGeRPpen6mUxHccr/C 5Pu9Qe7gkr1OswFRGmrVhCUHdJyQ+gIKrusyU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=PPK7CUbXLEowgV0x3/YwTJLxIOIOiox5hiqiSqpS6h68EkAypu3gjsMtroyg5jwumu bREm2ES1lr94f+kZBu8XUBUuVNqNAFVn6i6QDVDQ7MJfo2eI+MpQWEyU01orctRjgpVC wRl+xzIU00yL8KlZXPT/W7IcLgWqxuzuKhVrw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.138.7 with SMTP id q7mr6543191wfn.188.1261584667578; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:11:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:11:07 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f250e9d7bd73662f Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: Jan Husar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:11:08 -0000 Incidentally, I've contacted the author of this article and offered to correct/discuss some of his assumptions. Waiting to see if he decides to email me back. :P -- randi On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Jan Husar wrote: > http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=3D1123&tag=3Dnl.e011 > > -- > ----------------------------------- > | =A0Jan Husar > | > | doing what matters > | http://tinyurl.com/ya4xlqe > > Earthcause - in the cause of the Planet > #1 Mission to Kosovo (2009, 2010) > #2 Mission to Cambodia (2010) > #3 Mission to Galapagos (planning) > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 16:16:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750171065676 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:16:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from gloomweaver.pittgoth.com (gloomweaver.pittgoth.com [205.134.165.107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8918FC1A for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:16:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost.fbsdsecure.org (c-76-21-171-252.hsd1.va.comcast.net [76.21.171.252]) (authenticated bits=0) by gloomweaver.pittgoth.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBNFkPUH026952 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:46:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:45:46 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Randi Harper Message-Id: <20091223104546.787e0bdf.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:16:58 -0000 On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 -0800 Randi Harper wrote: > On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Peer Schaefer wrote: > > > >> BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic > >> backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend = or > >> a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but > >> surely difficult to implement). > > > > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg > > Which could then be edited by all of > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end CLI =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (*) > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end curses GUI =A0 =A0(*) > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(*) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Maybe these = 2 alternatives should be > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the firs= t question the installer asks ? > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install complete > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- Shudde= r, Not that I'd use it, but someone > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0woul= d probably want to write one). > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media, > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to auto install on multiple identical ne= w machines. >=20 >=20 > I would sooner stab myself in the face. Editing disks in vi is fun apparently! :) >=20 >=20 > > All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain: > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0This product is currently at the end of its life cycle a= nd > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0will eventually be replaced. >=20 >=20 > Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until > then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :) What happened to the BSD installer? And finstall ... Ivan? Ivan *knock knock* ;) --=20 Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 16:53:02 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE48106568F for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:53:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tonyt@logyst.com) Received: from smtp.webfaction.com (mail6.webfaction.com [74.55.86.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBA38FC0A for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:53:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by smtp.webfaction.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1503B1C7534F; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:53:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4903542pwi.3 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:53:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.107.6 with SMTP id j6mr11253375rvm.3.1261587180356; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:53:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 03:53:00 +1100 Message-ID: <22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com> From: Tony Theodore To: Randi Harper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:53:02 -0000 >>> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg >>> > Which could then be edited by all of >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Front end CLI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 (*) >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Front end curses GUI =C2=A0 =C2=A0(*) >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(*) =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maybe these 2 alternatives should be >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the first question the installer = asks ? >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Front end X11 GUI (for later after main in= stall complete >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Shudder, Not that I'd use it, b= ut someone >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would probably want to wri= te one). >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vi - for editing, & writing back to new bo= ot media, >>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to auto instal= l on multiple identical new machines. >>> >>> >>> I would sooner stab myself in the face. >> >> Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ? > > > All of the above. The bug list for sysinstall is not small. Even if > this wasn't the case, I'm not even going to work on introducing that > many options and obfuscating the code that much more. The mere thought > of the rewrite involved in adding that kind of support makes my head > feel like the knife is already in place. The idea is that it "simplifies" the code by making it more modular. All the final "sysinstall" has to do is execute the specifics of install.cfg. It's just a text file, anything can modify it - of course, in a standardised way. The suggestion is to develop front-ends that can generate/modify such a file which the installer back-end will execute. Think of it as functional programming for installers - define the installations options in a declarative way, and let the installer take care of the rest. Yes, trying to implement such a thing may drive you to stab yourself in the face - you can do that with a toothpick, but the idea should cause you to sharpen a different blade. No one is asking you to do it, just think of some possibilities. > The only support I've been *thinking* about adding is a simple CLI in > addition to the existing libdialog (ncurses) install. This would still > be a not insignificant modification, but there are issues that make > using a libdialog based installer problematic on some displays. It's a > fun idea to kick around, but it's not a priority. > > I don't even know what you mean by vi, but it sounds confusing and > unnecessary. This is what install.cfg is for - so you can define the > parameters of an installation beforehand. vi is an arcane, obscure text editor that is used by alpha/uber-geeks to modify *.cfg files ;) No one in their right mind would suggest the possibility of manually editing a text file, let alone the sysinstall .cfg file. Who knows what configuration options would be possible? Having cli/X11/ncurses/text interfaces to install.cfg seems ideal to me. The technical difficulty alone would in all likelihood ground it, it doesn't need to be shot down. Tony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 16:59:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD69E106568B for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:59:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f202.google.com (mail-pz0-f202.google.com [209.85.222.202]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC6D8FC0A for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:59:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk40 with SMTP id 40so5010028pzk.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:59:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+IosJosmlS14/YBIcT4C0Z8MKs0LgYOOhSQ4fShB/DE=; b=F9ikPCuxneA4OAuVV9IdDFGiCWTsvPrHSjUma8OaNM44Du1FPIgGsVNSnxe+LCeaK9 9LroJQobs90EJrM0XJPB9FrOhm5kzSOA9Bb1qpfOzTSygfzEtTYbnHGSwSOwImMH+k8h SVeU4281JUC91Y+hs8DB4mtgQXLG5LPhcS0ks= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=X99kcL8dmqpd+A+l9ZxEN2NiNEyUJngMnkGpvxIhNYxeVveB7cWtn7H3S3qxj91x1Z bJOt2eoeHBwb+7Pzv4BftXLQ0DL6gSJpEiq/ceuCmll9LfnvVJRv+ClPxWK8bD7iTupf C6R8lZ7HOzXOafjvoVXSSZinHQkNsjNam76b4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.154.3 with SMTP id g3mr4203619wfo.143.1261587594869; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:59:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com> References: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net> <22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:59:54 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2c71c90069c0f27c Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: Tony Theodore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:59:55 -0000 On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Tony Theodore wrote: >>>> > Perhaps the way to go is a common table of target defaults eg >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0/usr/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.cfg >>>> > Which could then be edited by all of >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end CLI =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 (*) >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end curses GUI =A0 =A0(*) >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(*) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Maybe the= se 2 alternatives should be >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the f= irst question the installer asks ? >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Front end X11 GUI (for later after main install compl= ete >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- Shu= dder, Not that I'd use it, but someone >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0w= ould probably want to write one). >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi - for editing, & writing back to new boot media, >>>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to auto install on multiple identical= new machines. >>>> >>>> >>>> I would sooner stab myself in the face. >>> >>> Not obvious at all which your personal revulsion applies to >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0CLI ? ncurses ? install.cfg ?, X11 ?, vi ? >> >> >> All of the above. The bug list for sysinstall is not small. Even if >> this wasn't the case, I'm not even going to work on introducing that >> many options and obfuscating the code that much more. The mere thought >> of the rewrite involved in adding that kind of support makes my head >> feel like the knife is already in place. > > The idea is that it "simplifies" the code by making it more modular. > All the final "sysinstall" has to do is execute the specifics of > install.cfg. It's just a text file, anything can modify it - of > course, in a standardised way. The suggestion is to develop front-ends > that can generate/modify such a file which the installer back-end will > execute. Think of it as functional programming for installers - define > the installations options in a declarative way, and let the installer > take care of the rest. > > Yes, trying to implement such a thing may drive you to stab yourself > in the face - you can do that with a toothpick, but the idea should > cause you to sharpen a different blade. No one is asking you to do it, > just think of some possibilities. > > >> The only support I've been *thinking* about adding is a simple CLI in >> addition to the existing libdialog (ncurses) install. This would still >> be a not insignificant modification, but there are issues that make >> using a libdialog based installer problematic on some displays. It's a >> fun idea to kick around, but it's not a priority. >> >> I don't even know what you mean by vi, but it sounds confusing and >> unnecessary. This is what install.cfg is for - so you can define the >> parameters of an installation beforehand. > > vi is an arcane, obscure text editor that is used by alpha/uber-geeks > to modify *.cfg files ;) No one in their right mind would suggest the > possibility of manually editing a text file, let alone the sysinstall > .cfg file. Who knows what configuration options would be possible? Yeah... I know what vi *is*. I don't see how it's relevant as an installation option. And by the way, you do edit the install.cfg file by hand. We don't have a handy tool to automagically create one of these as far as I know. You know what options are possible by looking at the sysinstall man page, looking at the example install.cfg file, or reading sysinstall.h. > > Having cli/X11/ncurses/text interfaces to install.cfg seems ideal to > me. The technical difficulty alone would in all likelihood ground it, > it doesn't need to be shot down. I'm shooting it down as in "I am not doing this" because I'm currently the person working on sysinstall. ;) -- randi From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 17:00:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172A21065696 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:00:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f202.google.com (mail-pz0-f202.google.com [209.85.222.202]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D398A8FC1C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:00:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pz0-f202.google.com with SMTP id 40so5010028pzk.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:00:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Ro1d1cTOFKa6q9ddbbIDethGI+klFfkJWeDhNaI45g0=; b=RFrfdzA+BxqGyc3V8dd8BzvQ+HgLW28EXcWT+X36N1vZMKgI+ePTIBGZjhMcGwMdAl Rn5gg5K/fWXbK+ItQvi1LmGMic+igNtKrGh3ksXZ9PU7KJf13TrC1/DpB6qnM9u84tdK QRdiUsmAqo0zfRTCGt1LAS36mXUUfCPLmN6jQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=dI2ekq1Glcui5bAdm10f9VEWOTqwcwmFUt/TFUi6d67Og8rNkzcDEyLliDoVLfjVJC 05GC1QWmaYwUywR79SI2cJ6pRIakVt2+8691qK/WuGJsTEVOWlozcERd6W/Be4uRiHBy kND2vTudr8TLZXILgOt1K7erp9x2BFl6SE3ZI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.154.33 with SMTP id g33mr6870028wfo.300.1261586021316; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:33:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1261571654.3837.11.camel@earth.sol> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> <1261571654.3837.11.camel@earth.sol> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:33:41 -0800 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:00:08 -0000 On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Peer Schaefer wrote: > On wednesday, the 23.12.2009, 08:38 +0000 Matthew Seaman wrote: > > At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't > have > > sufficient skill to do. Or sufficient time.) I'd design an installer as > a > > CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do > the > > installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to > allow > > users to create the installation script interactively. I think that > would > > fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a > > *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended > > installs over serial lines. > > > > Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a > > complete failure. > > BTW, the Debian installer consists (a) of a modular, frontend agnostic > backend, and (b) different frontend "plugins", e.g. a curses-frontend or > a X/GTK+-frontend. This is a modular and very elegant approach (but > surely difficult to implement). > > This is similar to how the BSD Installer project is organised: a non-GUI backend with various Text, GUI, and web frontends available. -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 18:37:02 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D6F106568F; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:37:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tonyt@logyst.com) Received: from smtp.webfaction.com (mail6.webfaction.com [74.55.86.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F758FC15; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:37:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-px0-f190.google.com (mail-px0-f190.google.com [209.85.216.190]) by smtp.webfaction.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6E41C75692; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:37:00 -0600 (CST) Received: by pxi28 with SMTP id 28so4988677pxi.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:37:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.125.13 with SMTP id c13mr7330463rvn.280.1261593420099; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:37:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912231548.nBNFmcn3064359@fire.js.berklix.net> <22166b750912230853m4a889656rbb6020f0eb133410@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 05:37:00 +1100 Message-ID: <22166b750912231037p6bcc0941k975a0d19f1c7c149@mail.gmail.com> From: Tony Theodore To: Randi Harper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:37:02 -0000 > Yeah... I know what vi *is*. I don't see how it's relevant as an > installation option. And by the way, you do edit the install.cfg file > by hand. We don't have a handy tool to automagically create one of > these as far as I know. You know what options are possible by looking > at the sysinstall man page, looking at the example install.cfg file, > or reading sysinstall.h. I think that's the whole point, there are some people that can/would like to hand craft an installation file. I'm happy with the advice from the handbook, and am curious about the man pages, example and header files, but I've never looked at them (for sysinstall). Many don't even follow the handbook. As FreeBSD is a general-purpose operating system, I think it would be impossible to cover the needs of embedded hardware developers, desktops users, server admins, and the curious; with a single installer. >> >> Having cli/X11/ncurses/text interfaces to install.cfg seems ideal to >> me. The technical difficulty alone would in all likelihood ground it, >> it doesn't need to be shot down. > > > I'm shooting it down as in "I am not doing this" because I'm currently > the person working on sysinstall. ;) Kudos and thanks to you; through the growing tendency of installers to be ignorant and rude, sysinstall remains competent and polite (I have no other words to compare them). This is advocacy, noone is asking _you_ to do it, but if we could add friendly.... Tony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 20:37:24 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB561065676 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:37:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marina@surferz.net) Received: from eastrmmtao102.cox.net (eastrmmtao102.cox.net [68.230.240.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423A48FC1F for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:37:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eastrmimpo02.cox.net ([68.1.16.120]) by eastrmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20091223202518.XDJD1916.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:25:18 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.30] ([68.100.144.76]) by eastrmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id LkRG1d00G1f6uEU02kRH20; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:25:17 -0500 X-VR-Score: -150.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=463f1N2YpqHLOamhbp4wF7Njg/30QkdnTZ27hYvsP6Y= c=1 sm=1 a=7k7CYPn1HmdQxeF9j2IGlw==:17 a=4UFpGajtAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=GdD97LhIBGp16koJnbYA:9 a=fJCf3hjlxyTNHHPXBi0A:7 a=T0-ozn-gcPZ_qRemhjypQ-iHeYYA:4 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=7k7CYPn1HmdQxeF9j2IGlw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4B327CAB.9000203@surferz.net> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:25:15 -0500 From: Marina Brown Organization: Mtribe User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:37:24 -0000 Charlie Kester wrote: > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 > > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this > article. > > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a > graphical installer? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I preferr a non-graphical installer. I like the installers of the BSD's. The simpler the better ! --- Marina Brown From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 21:12:25 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770DA10656A4 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:12:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rnodal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f190.google.com (mail-px0-f190.google.com [209.85.216.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6588FC14 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:12:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi28 with SMTP id 28so5060536pxi.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:12:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ZPZ390rjbqjK0Yg4KX1YssCYg1Fm9KZ3h1ZKJI16xOI=; b=jjg5I3fFUHuu+f9lw+lglMo2dtN6rad6qRmpHWk3dg1ESXHmoMrA4/0HHsbwcF2hCI 4Z5OVfE8ZGFyAnwZwx0NEdDywzUTiic+Mj/er9rsTA14zE/fpXyF96LBJW5YxMBUmKtF Fm/dkLdDk+5yqhfxzItfS2NWOUWQPRYrkYtQQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=jI2VK7I5gicrDVRBDd5tFlsA8ipny7PkudXJyE3HOxmaCS9+Z/EJn1ty5hSIg4h5GD JhZLCc+FSGHpHDafqx5dlh+GX5L9qcypLUrE2X38FItWMiwrTVP32KYRtlLFOYLwbFvj jo20eezC2KsXgpewnZu50xbW5PTF4ak1Z4+b4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.38.39 with SMTP id q39mr7185711waj.27.1261601002094; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:43:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9d972bed0912230847w44269fb0h1f442a184fd96e84@mail.gmail.com> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <9d972bed0912230847w44269fb0h1f442a184fd96e84@mail.gmail.com> From: Roger Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:43:01 -0500 Message-ID: <9d972bed0912231243o64d68b99x63dcfcb50eebe039@mail.gmail.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:12:25 -0000 Hello all: I'm recently new to FreeBSD (former Linux user) and I would like to share my thoughts in the matter. (1) I love *BSD, especially FreeBSD because of the way it is. I read the handbook before installing it and my first impressions with the installation process was fine. My biggest problem was understanding the whole concept of slices, partitions and the ports but once I got around that, everything was fine. I have to admit that the installer is a little bit confusing at first but once you have done it 2 or 3 times it is very easy to use and the handbook helps a lot. Also the FreeBSD mailing lists is full of very nice and helpful people so that really helped my move from Linux. Note that my installation was very straight forward so maybe I did not encounter enough situations to really provide an accurate opinion on the matter. (2) I AGREE that FreeBSD needs to make it easier for new people to FreeBSD. The reason why I believe that is because the more people you have using FreeBSD the more feedback the project would get. At the same time I don't think this effort should come from the core developers. I think the core developers should concentrate on building a base system that is stable, secure etc. and then have something on top of that done by someone else. In other words, provide the possibility for different type of installers to be built that target different audience. (3) I have a couple of questions so I could better understand the the whole installer business. --- How difficult it is to add a couple extra options to the menu that you are offered when first installing FreeBSD so that you can choose a particular installer? --- Assuming this installers where done, how difficult would it be to make it part of the installation medias (CD, USB, DVD etc). --- How difficult it is to test an installer? (VirtualBox or some other virtualization software comes to mind for testing). --- What kind of knowledge is required/recommended to take on this task? --- What kind of resources are there available to help with this task? Feel free to ignore points 1 and 2 since I'm new to FreeBSD and I probably should be getting involved in this sort of discussions but any input on point 3 would be highly appreciated. -r From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 21:13:19 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7C61065670 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:13:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rnodal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f202.google.com (mail-pz0-f202.google.com [209.85.222.202]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89108FC15 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:13:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk40 with SMTP id 40so5133022pzk.7 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:13:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ZMfZnim73o6YQenVNScWnyjosGbjqdzYKOHbLxHcGVY=; b=RlF5gYzwYGv3H/mhLG7KPfbLBPvCB0QquT7wn/EnRAaDMuCOt5snvc4cXaLKbyurnl tPfrSpr87Hmc5vbTUGsVpCjio3PEaaI6fICmet7elN5yUMpsdz7FiJ4vrDUMDWJflLuO 39vN7HCHsusCwV/yltnTmhcBpb70QD0LpiwBU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=lJTfJ9h0s3lN0V39RnkNKeo70isl/081IvpHlK686CIwwl+dn5/TQWWlBHCXIKjnZ3 JHpbkaJL/idnvORcfdFPmmt0gYUDIJrQnwy1m+bL1qV6d5yp+wVxunKcmsjrHixj2gK0 a0Rau0wTHSdP4e1IDOjycJffJJH9C7w/KTg9k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.21.1 with SMTP id 1mr6408297wau.16.1261600909094; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:41:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9d972bed0912230850p1b202175la82cbdb702cacb7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <9d972bed0912230847w44269fb0h1f442a184fd96e84@mail.gmail.com> <9d972bed0912230850p1b202175la82cbdb702cacb7f@mail.gmail.com> From: Roger Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:41:29 -0500 Message-ID: <9d972bed0912231241h3ae702dckc214196691a44279@mail.gmail.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:13:19 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Roger Date: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love To: Jan Husar On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Roger wrote: > Feel free to ignore points 1 and 2 since I'm new to FreeBSD and I > probably should be getting involved in this sort of discussions but > any input on > point 3 would be highly appreciated. > > -r > That should have been ".... SHOULD NOT BE GETTING INVOLVED.....". -r From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 00:04:17 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC491065676 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from outbound-mail-313.bluehost.com (outbound-mail-313.bluehost.com [67.222.54.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70E4C8FC1D for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:04:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 17503 invoked by uid 0); 24 Dec 2009 00:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by outboundproxy6.bluehost.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2009 00:04:17 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=T4vp94ozsX2POT2i78wPKnxuDRdeYJyGBjCQgSDpk+VzUqoANvt7+fvOQk6I3Avfta3iDIcTII3G2Y1Iw3lelmdyd30TEaAS9mjb4mqehfOJC/5cDrWga2gO5KL4owe9; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NNbBf-0000SO-OW for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:04:16 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:56:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:56:51 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" Message-ID: <20091223235651.GA31167@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AqsLC8rIMeq19msA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:04:17 -0000 --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Update: I confirmed that the scheduled publication date for my article will be Tuesday the 29th. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAksyrigACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKUX/gCgqu7qP58N37q0u/NnYfgpYLEV Kf4An0Rd3hmR0RSqHPxvH5dhrc/sMglL =j+/n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 00:06:06 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4D81065692 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:06:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doomnix@comcast.net) Received: from QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.96]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126338FC14 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:06:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from OMTA22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.89]) by QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Lm1H1d00D1vN32cA9nsxBW; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:52:57 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.138] ([76.112.93.25]) by OMTA22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Lnu71d0050Yq9Sc8inu8G5; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:54:08 +0000 Message-ID: <4B32AD59.6000102@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:52:57 -0500 From: Allen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.6) Gecko/20091206 SeaMonkey/2.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <541b7a870912150733m4bc34148j98790a6142d4521c@mail.gmail.com> <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:06:06 -0000 Shane Calimlim wrote: > +1 to a better installer, graphical or not. > I'd settle for one that while installing packages you've selected, doesn't sit there saying to switch discs in what seems to be a very random order... I still think that would help a lot.... Why DOES the installer do that exactly? I can't tell you how many times I've been sitting there installing, walked away, and then saw that a package was on another disk, and it was either switch, or, not get it installed.... And I have decided to wait for disk switching sometimes, but I noticed the packages that get skipped for now generally don't install. So basically, it would be nice if the install was more in the way of installing packages in disk order. Like for example: You start installing, and instead of it saying you need to switch disks, it instead finds ALL the packages you're going to install that are in that disk, installs them, THEN tells you to put in disc #2 or #3 or whatever. Personally I'd be happy with the BSD version of the Slackware installation. Slackware looks a lot like FreeBSD's installation, but the disks and package installations go in order and it doesn't ask you to put another one back in because it installs all packages in groups on each disk, and so after the first disk is finished, you put the second in, and it continues, and so on, and the only time you would ever put the first back in, is when it was Kernel time, which now isn't even a problem either, because now it installs in disk order all the way. Sorry, I know that was a lot of text, but I use FreeBSD and Linux, and both are in use in my network, and I like having both. I would just really like to see some good changes to FreeBSD, and I don't think a GUI installer is the requirement. A GUI install could be like an option, maybe, like Linux, where you have the option to install either in text mode, or GUI mode, but I'd say get the disc switching sorted first. FreeBSD is a great OS, and once the install is done, you start up GDM or KDM, or whatever you like, and literally anyone including my Mom, can use it. I once set up a machine with Linux where it would auto boot into KDM, my Mom could log in, "just like at work!" and then I set up the desktop so that Firefox and something else was there on the desktop, and my Mom would go and use it like it was Windows. It was very simple, and securing it was very easy, and She asked why the anti virus wasn't constantly asking Her to update and taking up CPU time constantly at boot up, and I simply said it wasn't needed, nor were reboots. She Liked it. To make FreeBSD better, try this, as it's my opinion: 1. Sort out the order in which CDs need to be switched. 2. If the installer is to be changed, why not make it similar to the Slackware one? It's basically like FreeBSD, but goes in a specific order someone on here said would be nice. 3. Making it easier to install patches would probably help A LOT. I know if you could do things like you can in Linux or Windows where you just install patches with a few clicks, it would be much easier for new users. People who use Slackware, can use wget, and upgradepkg packagename.tgz and it's done. SuSE is basically easier than Windows, it grabs them for you, checks for you, everything. And if you want patches in a different way, you tell it not to check at all and you can then do it by hand. Debian has apt-get, and with one line of commands, I can update servers, then upgrade packages, and that's very simple, compared to FreeBSD, where you have to install updates for the base system, THEN updates for the ports, which is prone to breaking if you do something wrong. I think FreeBSD would benefit greatly from a simpler way of installing patches and things. freebsd-update and portupgrade are nice, but, what about something that has a GUI that checks a server for updates, or, you can tell it to check, and then it downloads and installs them for you? That would probably get more Linux users in, and some Windows users who feel like trying it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 18:30:45 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015A91065676 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Lowell@Be-Well.Ilk.Org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4F88FC18 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:30:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 3509 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2009 18:04:02 -0000 Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org) ([66.92.78.145]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Dec 2009 18:04:02 -0000 Received: from lowell-desk.lan (lowell-desk.lan [172.30.250.6]) by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03105082E; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by lowell-desk.lan (Postfix, from userid 1147) id EAFA91CC37; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:03:55 -0500 (EST) From: Lowell Gilbert To: "Julian H. Stacey" References: <1261596182.00198604.1261583403@10.7.7.3> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:03:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1261596182.00198604.1261583403@10.7.7.3> (Julian H. Stacey's message of "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:48:38 +0100") Message-ID: <44ws0c5jw4.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:30:45 -0000 "Julian H. Stacey" writes: > Randi Harper wrote: >> Sure, once someone writes something everyone can agree upon. Until >> then, sorry, you're stuck with sysinstall. :) > > Yes, & All will never agree, it's schismatic, sort of thing > attractive to PCBSD DesktopBSD or Yet-Another-BSD forks/front ends, > or about as endless discussion as which brewery brews best beer :-) But less useful, going by the historical record. The various breweries are already producing their products, and I may find new favorites by discussing them. But discussing what an installer should do is useless unless somebody implements the ideas under discussion. I'd be happy to see any manner of improvements to/over sysinstall, but not enough to implement them myself. [Not even close.] From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 02:11:19 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3B41065676 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:11:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449A68FC18 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:11:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-75-65-60-123.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [75.65.60.123]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C075937B63B; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:52:53 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id D60D161C41; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:52:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:52:52 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-ID: <20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net> References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20-fullermd.4 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:11:19 -0000 On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 03:50:25PM +0100 I heard the voice of Julian H. Stacey, and lo! it spake thus: > > All of 4.11, 7.1 & 8.0 man sysinstall contain: > This product is currently at the end of its life cycle and > will eventually be replaced. That's a kinder version of what it had in rev 1.1 in 1997, prior to 2.2.5-RELEASE This utility is a prototype which lasted approximately 2 years past its expiration date and is greatly in need of death. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 09:58:16 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92812106566B for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:58:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvatore@oems.ch) Received: from mxout005.mail.hostpoint.ch (mxout005.mail.hostpoint.ch [217.26.49.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069278FC08 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:58:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.2.20] (helo=asmtp002.mail.hostpoint.ch) by mxout005.mail.hostpoint.ch with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NO6w2-000KN5-Ct for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:58:14 +0100 Received: from [212.98.44.96] (helo=OEMSPC01) by asmtp002.mail.hostpoint.ch with esmtpa (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NO6w1-0005xf-QR for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:58:14 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender-Id: oemssag5@oems.ch Message-ID: From: "Salvatore Albanese" To: References: <20091223120018.4E42610656C4@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:58:10 +0100 Organization: OEMS Sagl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 304, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:58:16 -0000 Greetings all after I googled a few online videos on how to freebsd and came up with many ways how to make an installation http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=How+to+install+FreeBSD&hl=it&emb=0&aq=f# apart from that, their many advocates who would help you with getting up to speed with FreeBSD, I have IT Professionals all the time come to my lab for an install party, and give them a test machine if they are resource starved. I want to help other discover the secrets of Free Open Source Software, and that is why I advocate FreeBSD. Please refere to the way *nix kind of people always make fun of how hard this software is but compared to other OS's I have to say the invested time in figuring out how something works is always worth the effort! make it hard for them and if they can get past the installation they are smart enough to use it aren't we snobs enough? (not I, get close to people ans show them it is easy but they must learn something) oh well if in dought I refere to the man pages and other documents available, and FreeBSD has lots of doc's! so there we have a lot of love for FreeBSD because love needs: caring, exploring, learning about ourselves as well as the OS. I have a lot of Love for freeBSD, and security is my friend! Peace and Love to All Salvatore > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:33 +0100 > From: Karel Miklav > Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love > Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" > Message-ID: <4B314F19.6080802@lovetemple.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Jan Husar wrote: >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 > > Why a box is not an apple and how would we make a box look like an > apple? That is a question! Because if we could turn all the boxes into > apples, oh boy, how many apples would we have! Where all those apples > would be stored in the world without boxes nobody knows, but let's just > concentrate on doing one step at the time. > > Seriously, power consumers get enough confirmation from the salespeople > and popular media, they should not be covered here. Or is there a need > for positioning work regarding our project? > > -- > > Regards, > Karel Miklav > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:24:10 -0800 > From: Charlie Kester > Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20091223032410.GA25393@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >>http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 > > Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this > article. > > As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get > more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a > graphical installer? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:55:54 -0800 > From: Shane Calimlim > Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > <16cc50f20912222355t4f5b7ba1kb593774e81c92b9e@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > +1 to a better installer, graphical or not. > > I can practically install FreeBSD blindfolded on the current one, but only > because I've done it so many times. The first few attempts were extremely > frustrating; the menu flow in the current installer makes little sense -- > especially if something goes wrong. Please keep that in mind, everyone on > this list knows the installer like the back of their hand, but do you > remember the first time(s) you used it? Know a fairly seasoned linux user > that has never used FreeBSD? Sit them down at a machine and watch them > try > to install it. > > First impressions are important! I won't go into the gui vs non-gui > installer debate, but making the install process as slick as possible is > definitely a good thing. > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Charlie Kester > wrote: > >> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >> >>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 >>> >> >> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this >> article. >> >> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get >> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a >> graphical installer? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> " >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:38:17 +0000 > From: Matthew Seaman > Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Charlie Kester wrote: >> On Tue 15 Dec 2009 at 07:33:49 PST Jan Husar wrote: >>> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 >> >> Others have pointed out that PC-BSD meets the need expressed in this >> article. >> >> As for FreeBSD itself, the question must be asked: do we WANT to get >> more love from people who judge an OS by whether or not it has a >> graphical installer? > > Heh. It's almost worth implementing a graphical installer just to shut > up the constant moaning. While I agree that it is a very basic error to > judge by form and appearance rather than by substance, unfortunately much > of the rest of the world appears not to agree. > > As a project, by not having this sort of layer of gloss on what is likely > to be the very first thing a new user sees we run the risk of putting off > complete neophytes who have no other basis on which to judge the OS, and > who could otherwise develop into the next generation of capable users. > > At the risk of being challenged to produce code (Which, alas, I don't have > sufficient skill to do. Or sufficient time.) I'd design an installer as > a > CLI program that reads in a fairly simple fixed script or language to do > the > installation work, and have separate Curses and/or X based programs to > allow > users to create the installation script interactively. I think that would > fulfil just about everybodies' requirements, from the people that want a > *shiny* graphical interface to people wanting to do automatic unattended > installs over serial lines. > > Of course, this sort of project has been attempted before, and been a > complete failure. > > Cheers, > > Matthew > > -- > Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard > Flat 3 > PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate > Kent, CT11 9PW > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 259 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20091223/888f2946/signature-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:32:26 -0700 > From: Chad Perrin > Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love (and why security gets no love) > To: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" > Message-ID: <20091223103226.GC26235@guilt.hydra> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:33:49PM +0100, Jan Husar wrote: >> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1123&tag=nl.e011 > > By the way . . . as another writer at TechRepublic, I've written another > article that responds substantially to what Jack Wallen said about the > various BSD Unix systems in his article, "Why the BSDs get no love". My > article has been submitted to the editor, and I believe it is slated to > be auto-published next week while most (if not all) of the TR staff is > off for the holidays under the title "Why security gets no love". > > While the actual core topic of the article is the deplorable lack of > proper attention to security matters in the IT world in general, it uses > Wallen's article as a springboard, and the beginning of it is largely a > direct response to the "Why the BSDs get no love" article. I thought I'd > bring it up here, since there has been some concern showed on this list > about the content of Wallen's article. > > I'd wait until my article gets published to mention it here, so I could > provide a direct URL to it at the time, but I might be electronically > incommunicado at the time (Christmas vacation and all), so I figured I'd > give anyone interested a heads-up that it's coming. > > I welcome any (hopefully constructive) feedback from the FreeBSD Advocacy > list's members and the larger FreeBSD community, of course. > > For the record, this email was composed on my ThinkPad running FreeBSD > 7.2. I mention FreeBSD from time to time in my security articles, and > have been particularly focusing on some matters related to basic > filesystem security this month in my TechRepublic articles. While I will > probably have to lay off the FreeBSD stuff for a little while to keep the > editors happy, I wouldn't mind suggestions from FreeBSD advocates for > what other FreeBSD-related topics might make for good security article > content in the future -- especially if they tie in strongly with more > "mainstream" security topics. > > -- > Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 196 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-advocacy/attachments/20091223/789022cc/attachment-0001.pgp > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 304, Issue 2 > ************************************************ > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 14:50:54 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF031065692 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:50:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D7E8FC0A for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:50:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so5537898ewy.3 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 06:50:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:cc:content-type; bh=/JRkoa4L42FQvhbmS54Uc1ChVimLNWN1fnAY1+Xv6lI=; b=M/5T60lpG4j/LlB3Y94LR023K376V+B2+Ht6CvYZDEJZLoAztF//moPT6U2y0YZB6E PuzAxoBuL2cAJqqb57cWz2Iy1yhRLEVNHnf1AksqxjExBvG4j+3KrB1mHDbSSbuVLa43 5cAL2IBKtncQeRSjbG5+3Est/iXhP3UhrnC1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; b=J1CxL/7umH4SWZ4Jyj4Ds18edVVOIo5QWwCMyUthuTlBgWyiZ3a1u2+7J8BH1ndp/o Ff38PbtNZvecxx+6N+PxAhopukyOV7KHu2LgRjo8F4wsz5jJVha6bMj+kAopVrZrIhtp CCbnwqyGCTbMAmTK/dINBLBxGzO0qz/zI+jJU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.90.203 with SMTP id e53mr299102wef.28.1261751065896; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 06:24:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net> References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk> <200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net> <20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:24:25 -0600 Message-ID: <2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com> From: Astrodog Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:50:54 -0000 I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be replaced, and most people aren't bothered enough by it to write code to come up with something new. Certainly, having things like zfs support in sysinstall would be nice... but most of the people using zfs boot know the system well enough to do it from the Fixit/LiveFS shell anyway. Basically... if you really want to see this change, I think you're gonna have to do it yourself. --- Harrison From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 26 00:59:03 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03AA4106568D for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 00:59:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from petrus4@tpg.com.au) Received: from mail13.tpgi.com.au (smtp-out13.tpgi.com.au [220.244.226.123]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5288FC13 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 00:59:02 +0000 (UTC) X-TPG-Junk-Status: Message not scanned DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tpg.com.au; s=alpha; t=1261788220; bh=nmFJtaUdEActah+7lK7Th4Zd5PGlkYX2VJZ6YCO77hI=; h=X-TPG-Abuse:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=MmE+3pocQS/dSAwEm3ppQ8pT0bx5cuagHK1WvRnpBwdHhk08UkX9ix0ZZB5OkVn3n cpxQwGuEC6oa/IB+3aPpNMWdLm/CBEG1T8NTigWDv9Sc7TRsvkNzxC+sFzGIKToI0L uQ04Vut7aXjExiNX+28Km0aoLmvosdQ8C6CxSpGs= X-TPG-Antivirus: Passed X-TPG-Abuse: host=203-219-254-191.static.tpgi.com.au; ip=203.219.254.191; date=Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:43:39 +1100 Received: from jim4fb89194d83 (203-219-254-191.static.tpgi.com.au [203.219.254.191]) by mail13.tpgi.com.au (envelope-from petrus4@tpg.com.au) (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id nBQ0hcIe006089 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:43:39 +1100 Message-ID: <001001ca85c4$762faa80$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83> From: "Petrus" To: References: <4B31D6F9.6040608@infracaninophile.co.uk><200912231450.nBNEoP1q063542@fire.js.berklix.net><20091225015252.GW2100@over-yonder.net> <2fd864e0912250624s7f51b127r991342baf8487100@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:43:35 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2905 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 00:59:03 -0000 >I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably > be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be The virtue of sysinstall, however, is that it is console based. I for one would rather endure sysinstall's idiosyncracies, if it still means that I'm going to be able to reliably install on whatever ancient, eldritch hardware I happen to have with me at the time. If someone wants to write something X based, with hardware detection a la Ubuntu, and all the proverbial bells and whistles and flashing lights, then by all means; (and I think they already have, with finstall) but I think FreeBSD absolutely needs to keep a console-based installer as a fallback for old hardware. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 26 15:30:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CB8106566B for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:30:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike.bybee@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067158FC18 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:30:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so1990025qwb.7 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:30:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=g/6aL52ZLVo/L+I2QlRXtZDGDtfKeaS9/bYEDD57j+U=; b=fUyNwrByxrW7W6JlG/OL6TNbWbdOS0Ywjozhax3LEXB2bdLlxbV/CqRY33jLqV7Eci ze10cLchfGmTFM+lnYv5xt854kuqikrKdPouPbZdKFX2wLu4gh/xP6iRQla7EB5CKcv2 2foou7MZHpwIo80CYcq64kFL1nRQRlf7cUuTI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=fXY3pIMdYx0qYF/2cEZwqjfpVGM3qR1Vp7AAB68RMZY/PbmrU6vh6oLuHSemI8uDGx mdVd3AAHVOe/fw6VG5oRGg+of0Zdw1XNr2ZbmrMGXD+L+FlElqZSI6iXjhUAFG9GhK0J 5ByfgF4MhfJ/vmtt22IZxw5nbuljdxy27rQ20= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.87.34 with SMTP id u34mr3163521qal.222.1261841454223; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:30:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:30:54 -0700 Message-ID: <75813f040912260730w40e7ebfge72fb0686c455cd9@mail.gmail.com> From: Mike Bybee To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:30:55 -0000 > Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:43:35 +1000 > From: "Petrus" > Subject: Re: why BSDs got no love > To: > Message-ID: <001001ca85c4$762faa80$0301a8c0@jim4fb89194d83> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > >I think what we're looking at here is that sysinstall should probably > > be replaced... but it works well enough that it doesn't *have* to be > > The virtue of sysinstall, however, is that it is console based. I for one > would rather endure sysinstall's idiosyncracies, if it still means that I'm > going to be able to reliably install on whatever ancient, eldritch hardware > I happen to have with me at the time. > > If someone wants to write something X based, with hardware detection a la > Ubuntu, and all the proverbial bells and whistles and flashing lights, then > by all means; (and I think they already have, with finstall) but I think > FreeBSD absolutely needs to keep a console-based installer as a fallback > for > old hardware. > > I think PC-BSD does just fine with this portion of it - sysinstall is still there, version 8 can do a pure FreeBSD 8 install *or* a PC-BSD install (with the extra PBI bits and whatnot) and has a nice graphical installer as well as a LiveCD image. There is absolutely no reason to change the default FreeBSD installer in my opinion, when the PC-BSD one will suffice for the 'snazzy' desktop installs. -- Thanks, Mike Bybee