From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 15 06:30:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0D5106564A for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 06:30:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vertexSymphony@zoho.com) Received: from sender1.zohomail.com (sender1.zohomail.com [72.5.230.103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4F48FC08 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 06:30:11 +0000 (UTC) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=zapps768; d=zoho.com; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; b=rZ1hJrSdrD0Mi3QNVSXxwVL5egM+jeg06HvXFCJSZrt8uW/rkW72irtQDC/n9vdyfeMAfcNZEYJs tG6UhlD/XATGGDycFyWhe8Dnwg/DjnmLV/yjOYFZKhW4io66vZhx Received: from [192.168.0.200] (213-56-16-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.16.56.213]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1326608000409890.7428112960183; Sat, 14 Jan 2012 22:13:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F126E7E.60903@zoho.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 03:13:18 -0300 From: Alex Kuster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20120110 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Zoho-Virus-Status: 2 Subject: Re: 2 years student project X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 06:30:12 -0000 Apart from the work with the intel drivers, I'll add (considering that it's not on the IdeasPage and no one mentioned it) also some KMS/GEM love for the other drivers .... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 15 10:27:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BBF106566B for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:27:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F5C8FC12 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:27:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0FAR3o6019302 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 02:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <4F12A9F7.3050400@rawbw.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 02:27:03 -0800 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111226 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Sound on the system briefly interrupts when kde4 switches windows with nvidia card X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:27:04 -0000 I have kde4 on 8.2 with translucency windows effect enabled and nvidia graphics driver. Every time I switch an active window or maximize some window, sound played by mplayer interrupts for ~0.5 sec. Very annoying effect. Problem disappears when windows effects in kde4 are turned off. Is this likely a bug in nvidia driver that it locks up the system when a lot of OpenGL operations are in progress? Or what might be a problem? Yuri From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 15 17:49:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190D51065676 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:49:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ssgriffonuser@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88F08FC16 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:49:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so3634807iag.13 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:49:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=V8BuKXZYSVM4bsZB8vGuIpPwaoQz9/chIww3i32xBzY=; b=d2WWgszfbI3/9g9P/9Hw7V5bMWaYZeSQJPMbzA3ekpHPhl5VU5zt6LWK1CU24ri264 7QSlu8c45bSKHD47SJDgYz0aYgFn/MHwuqY0XaJznbtYhGbZK550IfABPJ/3vXpTD4JM sGBJp84+WX8Vomz8n1iWtcEyuv0YqZVFtpiBM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.152.65 with SMTP id h1mr7609381icw.50.1326648258234; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.246.132 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:24:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:24:18 -0700 Message-ID: From: ss griffon To: Matthieu Hauglustaine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2 years student project X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:49:12 -0000 On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Matthieu Hauglustaine wrote: > Dear all, > > We are a group of french CS students at Epitech, currently in 3rd year. > As part of our formation we have to start working on our end of > scholarship project. We will have 2 years to complete this project, > and the only obligation we have is to be "innovative". > The first step is to submit our subject for validation, and this must > be done for the end of the month, > > We would really like to take this opportunity to contribute to the > FreeBSD project. > Our formation is focused exclusively on the "learn by doing it > yourself" philosophy and we have many projects in different domains > behind us (mainly in c and c++). > > We've spent some time looking around the ideas presented on this page: > http://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage. > Lots of these projects are extremely interesting and, among others, > "porting HFS+" and "Space Communication Protocol Standards" are on our > list of potential projects. > Maybe their are other unlisted ideas that would be nice student > projects while still useful to the community? > > However, what should be the first move here? Who should we contact? > Would someone with more experience in FeeBSD development take the role > of "mentor"? > > We are hoping for some guidance so we could be as effective as possible. > > Regards, > > Matthieu Hauglustaine > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" In my experience, working with virtualization is very fun and rewarding. Perhaps, working to get Windows or Linux running on BHyve (FreeBSD hypervisor) would be a fun project. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 15 23:34:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43F9106566C for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:34:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.mail.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 680708FC13 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:34:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 15393 invoked by uid 0); 15 Jan 2012 23:34:41 -0000 Received: from 67.206.162.29 by rms-us005.v300.gmx.net with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:34:26 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120115233438.218240@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: 2QdhbyQ03zOlNR3dAHAhGLt+IGRvbwAQ Subject: Re: Sound on the system briefly interrupts when kde4 switches windows with nvidia card X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:34:41 -0000 > I have kde4 on 8.2 with translucency windows effect enabled and nvidia > graphics driver. > Every time I switch an active window or maximize some window, sound > played by mplayer interrupts for ~0.5 sec. Very annoying effect. Problem > disappears when windows effects in kde4 are turned off. > Is this likely a bug in nvidia driver that it locks up the system when a > lot of OpenGL operations are in progress? Or what might be a problem? Some drivers do things like DELAY(big number) while interrupts are turned off. Very bad. Look through the source, maybe you can find it. We REALLY need a way to service one device without shutting off interrupts from other devices. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 00:21:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662D01065670 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:21:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A9D8FC12 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:21:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0G0LJNH060429 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:21:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <4F136D7F.6070309@rawbw.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:21:19 -0800 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111226 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20120115233438.218240@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: <20120115233438.218240@gmx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Sound on the system briefly interrupts when kde4 switches windows with nvidia card X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:21:20 -0000 On 01/15/2012 15:34, Dieter BSD wrote: > Some drivers do things like DELAY(big number) while interrupts are turned > off. Very bad. Look through the source, maybe you can find it. > > We REALLY need a way to service one device without shutting off > interrupts from other devices. NVidia driver is closed source and ships with many binaries. But code immediately interacting with kernel is open and it does call DELAY and also tsleep(9) Yuri From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 00:24:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901E6106566C for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:24:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Received: from monday.kientzle.com (99-115-135-74.uvs.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [99.115.135.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526E28FC23 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:24:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from root@localhost) by monday.kientzle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) id q0G05WLL051070 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:05:32 GMT (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.2.119] (CiscoE3000 [192.168.1.65]) by kientzle.com with SMTP id j5hwsp6ave75dewmscx4w4jaen; for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:05:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) From: Tim Kientzle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:05:32 -0800 Message-Id: <8156C9AF-3550-482F-8485-C7D0DA2EB8A0@freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Subject: BeagleBone? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:24:25 -0000 Just got a BeagleBone in the mail and so far, it seems like fun: * Under $100 * Relatively modern Cortex-A8 ARM CPU (TI AM3358) * Built-in Ethernet, USB console, etc. So far, I've gotten console access from my FreeBSD laptop and am starting to tinker with a nanobsd-like script to build a bootable SD image. (By copying the MLO and u-boot.img files; nothing FreeBSD-specific yet.) Next step: Compile the arm/uboot boot loader and see if I can get that to load and run. Anyone else tinkering with one of these? Any hints? ;-) Tim From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 00:44:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F3E106566B for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:44:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.48]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536538FC15 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:44:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta21.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.88]) by qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id N0bl1i0011u4NiLA50kb8h; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:44:35 +0000 Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org ([24.8.232.202]) by omta21.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id N0kZ1i00q4NgCEG8h0kaCF; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:44:35 +0000 Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0G0iW7S003210; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:44:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: Tim Kientzle In-Reply-To: <8156C9AF-3550-482F-8485-C7D0DA2EB8A0@freebsd.org> References: <8156C9AF-3550-482F-8485-C7D0DA2EB8A0@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:44:31 -0700 Message-Id: <1326674671.1669.2.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.0 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: BeagleBone? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:44:36 -0000 On Sun, 2012-01-15 at 16:05 -0800, Tim Kientzle wrote: > Just got a BeagleBone in the mail and so far, it seems like fun: > * Under $100 > * Relatively modern Cortex-A8 ARM CPU (TI AM3358) > * Built-in Ethernet, USB console, etc. > > So far, I've gotten console access from my FreeBSD > laptop and am starting to tinker with a nanobsd-like > script to build a bootable SD image. (By copying the > MLO and u-boot.img files; nothing FreeBSD-specific yet.) > > Next step: Compile the arm/uboot boot loader and > see if I can get that to load and run. > > Anyone else tinkering with one of these? Any > hints? ;-) > > Tim The freebsd-arm list would be the place for info. There's still work to do to get FreeBSD running on a Cortex-A8, last I heard. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 01:48:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140CC106566B; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:48:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lidl@hydra.pix.net) Received: from hydra.pix.net (hydra.pix.net [IPv6:2001:470:e254::3c]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74918FC12; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:48:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hydra.pix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hydra.pix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0G1m5ol004949; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:48:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lidl@hydra.pix.net) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.1 at mail.pix.net Received: (from lidl@localhost) by hydra.pix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q0G1m4e3004948; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:48:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lidl) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:48:04 -0500 From: Kurt Lidl To: Ian Lepore Message-ID: <20120116014804.GC4614@pix.net> References: <8156C9AF-3550-482F-8485-C7D0DA2EB8A0@freebsd.org> <1326674671.1669.2.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1326674671.1669.2.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers , Tim Kientzle Subject: Re: BeagleBone? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:48:09 -0000 On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 05:44:31PM -0700, Ian Lepore wrote: > On Sun, 2012-01-15 at 16:05 -0800, Tim Kientzle wrote: > > Just got a BeagleBone in the mail and so far, it seems like fun: > > * Under $100 > > * Relatively modern Cortex-A8 ARM CPU (TI AM3358) > > * Built-in Ethernet, USB console, etc. > > > > So far, I've gotten console access from my FreeBSD > > laptop and am starting to tinker with a nanobsd-like > > script to build a bootable SD image. (By copying the > > MLO and u-boot.img files; nothing FreeBSD-specific yet.) > > > > Next step: Compile the arm/uboot boot loader and > > see if I can get that to load and run. > > > > Anyone else tinkering with one of these? Any > > hints? ;-) > > > > Tim > > The freebsd-arm list would be the place for info. There's still work to > do to get FreeBSD running on a Cortex-A8, last I heard. There's this: http://code.google.com/p/beagleboard-freebsd/ Which has a status from January, and a pointer to a newer code drop, and a couple of wiki entries saying to build it and boot it. (The gitorious link just has code, no wiki or other useful information, at least that I saw when browsing.) The long and short of it (as I understand, since I just happened to have read through this stuff the other day), is that there's a kernel that compiles and has a bunch of drivers. But the pmap routines for that ARM varient are just stubbed, so there's no userland going on at all. Good luck -- it looks like a cool little board on which to run FreeBSD. -Kurt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 03:33:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB4C1065670 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:33:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D038B8FC15 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:33:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0G3XLVk082213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:33:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F139ABD.8070801@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:34:21 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jan Mikkelsen References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hardware supported by ng_frame_relay? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:33:25 -0000 On 1/13/12 11:00 PM, Jan Mikkelsen wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma A101 card and WANPIPE. > > Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for alternatives. > > What hardware does ng_frame_relay support now that ar(4) and sr(4) are not in FreeBSD 9? > > Specifically, will ng_frame_relay work with a Digium TE121 and ports/dahdi-kmod? > > Any suggestions welcome, G.703, X.21 or V.35 interfaces OK. Unfortunately, with the advent of Ethernet connected internet feeds (e.g. dsl, cable etc), plain synchronous interfaces have become almost irrelevant for most of the developers. If you can find a card that "would have" been usable with the ar or sr drivers and you have one for testing, we could possibly resurrect it with your help, but none of the current developers have such a card.. (that I know of). > Thanks, > > Jan Mikkelsen_______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 03:37:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C841106566C; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:37:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637658FC08; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:37:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0G3bnui082229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F139BC9.6030805@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:38:49 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kostik Belousov References: <201201121404.q0CE4ItN066102@lurza.secnetix.de> <4F0FD2E3.1060607@freebsd.org> <20120113122749.GG31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> In-Reply-To: <20120113122749.GG31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Paul A. Procacci" , Oliver Fromme , Oliver Fromme , freebsd-net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Processes' FIBs X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:37:57 -0000 On 1/13/12 4:27 AM, Kostik Belousov wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 10:44:51PM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: >> On 1/12/12 6:04 AM, Oliver Fromme wrote: >>> Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: >>> > On 11. Jan 2012, at 15:06 , Oliver Fromme wrote: >>> > > I'm currently looking at the source code of ps, but adding >>> > > a field for the FIB isn't as trivial as I thought because >>> > > ps only sees struct kinfo_proc (via sysctl kern.proc.*) >>> > > which doesn't contain the FIB. procstat does the same. >>> > > >>> > > I'm currently trying to write a patch that copies p_fibnum >>> > > from struct proc to struct kinfo_proc (just like p_nice, >>> > > for example). Does that make sense? If so, does the patch >>> > > below look reasonable? (I've made it on a stable/8 system, >>> > > but it should apply to 9 and 10, too.) >>> > >>> > I am not sure it makes too much sense in ps. It might make sense in >>> > sockstat maybe? >>> >>> Well, every process has a default FIB number (p_fibnum in >>> struct proc). It is a property of the process, just like >>> the nice value for example. So I think it makes sense for >>> ps to be able to display it if the user asks for it. This >>> is the piece of information that I need. >>> >>> On the other hand, sockstat displays open sockets only. >>> Of course, an internet socket has a FIB number associated >>> with it, too, so sockstat could display it. But that >>> would be a completely different piece of information, >>> and it wouldn't solve the actual problem that I'm currently >>> facing. >>> >> I hadn't considered that a process would want to see the fib of another. >> but of course it makes sense. >> I see no problem the the attached patch except that it doesn't fix the >> man page for ps and setfib(2) or setfib(8) (or is it 1?) >> >> etc. >> if there are no objections, I can add this when it has been polished.. > The patch misses compat32 bits and breaks compat32 ps/top. I guess that would be "polishing" :-) >>> Best regards >>> Oliver >>> >>> --- ./sys/sys/user.h.orig 2011-07-12 14:23:54.000000000 +0200 >>> +++ ./sys/sys/user.h 2012-01-11 15:35:50.000000000 +0100 >>> @@ -83,7 +83,7 @@ >>> * it in two places: function fill_kinfo_proc in sys/kern/kern_proc.c and >>> * function kvm_proclist in lib/libkvm/kvm_proc.c . >>> */ >>> -#define KI_NSPARE_INT 9 >>> +#define KI_NSPARE_INT 8 >>> #define KI_NSPARE_LONG 12 >>> #define KI_NSPARE_PTR 6 >>> >>> @@ -177,6 +177,7 @@ >>> */ >>> char ki_sparestrings[68]; /* spare string space */ >>> int ki_spareints[KI_NSPARE_INT]; /* spare room for growth */ >>> + int ki_fibnum; /* Default FIB number */ >>> u_int ki_cr_flags; /* Credential flags */ >>> int ki_jid; /* Process jail ID */ >>> int ki_numthreads; /* XXXKSE number of threads in total >>> */ >>> --- ./sys/kern/kern_proc.c.orig 2011-07-12 14:19:26.000000000 +0200 >>> +++ ./sys/kern/kern_proc.c 2012-01-11 15:36:22.000000000 +0100 >>> @@ -775,6 +775,7 @@ >>> kp->ki_swtime = (ticks - p->p_swtick) / hz; >>> kp->ki_pid = p->p_pid; >>> kp->ki_nice = p->p_nice; >>> + kp->ki_fibnum = p->p_fibnum; >>> PROC_SLOCK(p); >>> rufetch(p,&kp->ki_rusage); >>> kp->ki_runtime = cputick2usec(p->p_rux.rux_runtime); >>> --- ./bin/ps/keyword.c.orig 2011-07-12 13:42:48.000000000 +0200 >>> +++ ./bin/ps/keyword.c 2012-01-11 15:44:27.000000000 +0100 >>> @@ -90,6 +90,7 @@ >>> NULL, 0}, >>> {"etime", "ELAPSED", NULL, USER, elapsed, NULL, 12, 0, CHAR, NULL, >>> 0}, >>> {"f", "F", NULL, 0, kvar, NULL, 8, KOFF(ki_flag), INT, "x", 0}, >>> + {"fib", "FIB", NULL, 0, kvar, NULL, 2, KOFF(ki_fibnum), INT, "d", 0}, >>> {"flags", "", "f", 0, NULL, NULL, 0, 0, CHAR, NULL, 0}, >>> {"ignored", "", "sigignore", 0, NULL, NULL, 0, 0, CHAR, NULL, 0}, >>> {"inblk", "INBLK", NULL, USER, rvar, NULL, 4, ROFF(ru_inblock), LONG, >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-net@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-net-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 06:59:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE94E10657A5 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:59:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC0A8FC08 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:59:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p5DCBFFEF.dip.t-dialin.net [93.203.255.239]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0G6XKkb027409; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:33:21 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0G6XMhg099011; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:33:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0G6X3ET013291; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:33:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201201160633.q0G6X3ET013291@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Yuri From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:21:19 PST." <4F136D7F.6070309@rawbw.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:33:03 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sound on the system briefly interrupts when kde4 switches windows with nvidia card X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:59:09 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Yuri > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:21:19 -0800 > Message-id: <4F136D7F.6070309@rawbw.com> Yuri wrote: > On 01/15/2012 15:34, Dieter BSD wrote: > > Some drivers do things like DELAY(big number) while interrupts are turned > > off. Very bad. Look through the source, maybe you can find it. > > > > We REALLY need a way to service one device without shutting off > > interrupts from other devices. > > NVidia driver is closed source and ships with many binaries. But code > immediately interacting with kernel is open and it does call DELAY and > also tsleep(9) > > Yuri This might help ? man mplayer: -priority -cache man rtprio Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, & indent with "> ". Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 07:16:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE61106567D for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:16:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rik@inse.ru) Received: from ns.rikbsd.org (ns.rikbsd.org [95.143.215.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A7A8FC17 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:16:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (wn.rikbsd.org [192.168.1.254]) by ns.rikbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 65EAF5CF15; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:59:24 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F127980.2070806@inse.ru> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:00:16 +0400 From: Roman Kurakin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20111109) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jan Mikkelsen References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hardware supported by ng_frame_relay? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:16:38 -0000 Hi, Jan Mikkelsen wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma A101 card and WANPIPE. > > Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for alternatives. > > What hardware does ng_frame_relay support now that ar(4) and sr(4) are not in FreeBSD 9? > > Specifically, will ng_frame_relay work with a Digium TE121 and ports/dahdi-kmod? > > Any suggestions welcome, G.703, X.21 or V.35 interfaces OK. > Check also www. cronyx. ru for ce(4) and cp(4). As far as I know, an old digium adapters were using software framer for HDLC, but I don'k know the current state. If they didn't provide hardware framer now, I suggest to check for any other adapter. Best regards, rik > Thanks, > > Jan Mikkelsen_______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 07:18:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB522106566C for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:18:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6928FC0A for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:18:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0G7IEtZ054705 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <4F13CF35.7010906@rawbw.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:18:13 -0800 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111226 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <201201160633.q0G6X3ET013291@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201201160633.q0G6X3ET013291@fire.js.berklix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Sound on the system briefly interrupts when kde4 switches windows with nvidia card X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:18:14 -0000 On 01/15/2012 22:33, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > This might help ? > man mplayer: > -priority > -cache > man rtprio as per mplayer(1) -priority only works on Windows and OS/2. -cache doesn't help, setting higher priority with rtprio doesn't help either. The only thing that helps is turning off window effects. Yuri From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 07:40:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0939106566B for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:40:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hselasky@c2i.net) Received: from swip.net (mailfe01.c2i.net [212.247.154.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8A98FC12 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:40:02 +0000 (UTC) X-T2-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, BAYES_50 Received: from [188.126.198.129] (account mc467741@c2i.net HELO laptop002.hselasky.homeunix.org) by mailfe01.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with ESMTPA id 230375945; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:40:00 +0100 From: Hans Petter Selasky To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:37:46 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-STABLE; KDE/4.4.5; amd64; ; ) References: <20120115233438.218240@gmx.com> <4F136D7F.6070309@rawbw.com> In-Reply-To: <4F136D7F.6070309@rawbw.com> X-Face: 'mmZ:T{)),Oru^0c+/}w'`gU1$ubmG?lp!=R4Wy\ELYo2)@'UZ24N@d2+AyewRX}mAm; Yp |U[@, _z/([?1bCfM{_"B<.J>mICJCHAzzGHI{y7{%JVz%R~yJHIji`y>Y}k1C4TfysrsUI -%GU9V5]iUZF&nRn9mJ'?&>O MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201201160837.46939.hselasky@c2i.net> Cc: Yuri Subject: Re: Sound on the system briefly interrupts when kde4 switches windows with nvidia card X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:40:03 -0000 On Monday 16 January 2012 01:21:19 Yuri wrote: > On 01/15/2012 15:34, Dieter BSD wrote: > > Some drivers do things like DELAY(big number) while interrupts are turned > > off. Very bad. Look through the source, maybe you can find it. > > > > We REALLY need a way to service one device without shutting off > > interrupts from other devices. > > NVidia driver is closed source and ships with many binaries. But code > immediately interacting with kernel is open and it does call DELAY and > also tsleep(9) > > Yuri Hi, I've noticed that the propritary Nvidia drivers can freeze when probing a second monitor for some seconds. It indicates that all code is directly executed from interrupt context, instead of postponed to a task queue, where pause() can be used. --HPS From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 22:58:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24B8106566C for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F588FC0C for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:58:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0GMSEsM033896 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:28:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0GMS9Cv033893 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:28:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:28:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Subject: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:58:47 -0000 Friends, I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come out in March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE and is typical of a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. I also see that undercutting the current release before wide deployment and maturity is continuing. 7.0 came (barely) after 6.3, which was bad enough, but not as bad as 8.0 arriving with 7.2, and now 9.0 with 8.2. Finally, the culture of "that's fixed in CURRENT" or "we built those changes into (insert next major release)" continues to get worse. It's difficult to escape the notion that FreeBSD is becoming an operating system by, and for, FreeBSD developers. The Problems: Between JohnCompanies and rsync.net, we have nearly one thousand full blown FreeBSD systems running on three continents. We've been deploying these systems since 2001 and since "the rift"[1] have been increasingly subject to the following major issues, listed from most general to most specific: 1) A widening gap of understanding between the developers and the end users. Not everyone has a fantastic tool chain and build environment that allows them to jump around from one snapshot to the next, cost free. We've got a thousand of these things, and not only are we going to run RELEASE software ONLY, but we're going to do everything we can to match that environment up across as large of an installed base as possible. The daily chatter on the lists about getting stable and getting current, or moving to the next major release reflects a complete disconnect between developers and end users. 2) Having two simultaneous production releases draws focus away from both of them, and keeps any release from ever truly maturing. In January of 2012, we should be on 6.12 (or so) and just breaking ground on 7.0. Instead, each release gets perhaps two years of focused development before every new fix is applied only to the upcoming release, and any kind of support or enthusiasm from the community just disappears. This means that any serious or wide deployment gets stuck with a bad choice every two years - keep running something that's already essentially abandoned, or spend all of that time and money on QA, testing, documentation, shipping, etc., all over again, just like they did two years ago. Of course the retort will be: "we added ZFS and ULE, etc., and those warranted a full release" - and maybe that's true, but since ZFS is only now, circa 8.3 (god willing) ready for any kind of prime time deployment[2], it would have been just fine to "release" it today, in 7.0. 3) Having two simultaneous production releases draws investment away from FreeBSD, because the relevance and longevity of those fixes are unknown. I am sure we are not the only organization that either needs new features, or needs fixes, that just aren't on others' priority lists. In the past, we've donated time and money[3][4] to try to push some of these things forward, but it makes less and less sense when the lifespan of any particular fixes are limited to the shorter and shorter lifespans of the releases. Why pay to get this fixed today when it's either "already fixed in CURRENT" or is already irrelevant ? Meanwhile, end users that don't have the option to hire contract coders just lose out. 4) New code and fixes that people NEED TODAY just sits on the shelf for 8 or 10 or (nowadays) 13 months while end users wait for new minor releases. Not only does this hurt end users, but it also hurts downstream projects, like pfsense and FreeNAS. Here's a good example: somewhere around 2007, a great many PCMCIA network cards (of interest to pfsense users, like me) just quit working.[5] I found that this was still the case in 2010. I asked Warner about it, it got MFC'd, and I donated some hardware towards keeping these devices maintained. So far so good. But this was in June of 2011 which means that 8 months later this still isn't released and certainly isn't in pfsense. Ok, fine - if I'm fiddling with PCMCIA cards in 2011, then perhaps "get CURRENT" is a reasonable response ... but be honest, do you have a build environment that allows you to take FreeBSD CURRENT and generate a new pfsense build from that ? Do any pfsense end users have that ? I don't. More frequent minor releases would be a boon here. 5) New code and fixes that people NEED TODAY often get pushed into the next major release, since that's what people are working on anyway. A few years ago we were dying for new em(4) and twa(4) drivers in FreeBSD 6, but they were applied only to 7 and beyond, since that was the "new production" release (as opposed to the "old production" release). It's the same bad choice again: make major investments in testing and people and processes every two years, or just limp along with old, buggy drivers and no support. Suggestions: Here are the specific actions that I think would dramatically improve the focus of the project, the experience of real end users, and the ability for third parties to truly invest in FreeBSD: - Stop the trend of FreeBSD being an operating system by and for FreeBSD developers. Think about the processes and costs that large and wide installed bases incur. Think about the logistics of major upgrades and the difficulty of running snapshot releases, etc. Remember - if it's not fixed in the production release, it's NOT FIXED. Serious (large) end users have very little use for CURRENT.[6] - Focus on one production release at a time. Preferably for a solid five years. In addition, provide actual legacy support for that release for another five years after that. Five years of production and another five years of legacy would provide a very stable platform for development and investment, and would signal to large, complex organizations that FreeBSD takes their needs seriously. - Release a minor revision every 4 months. This sounds aggressive, but it's a lot easier if the project isn't simultaneously working on a second "production" release at the same time. Thank you for reading this. I look forward to comments and discussion. John Kozubik [1] http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-September/006630.html [2] Thank you for not hijacking the thread RE: production-worthiness of ZFS. Just read freebsd-fs for a bit and you'll be sufficiently wary. [3] http://blog.kozubik.com/john_kozubik/2009/01/64bit-freebsd-quotas.html [4] http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/2007cb.html [5] http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=115623#reply12 [6] It's worth reminding people that the official stance of the FreeBSD project is that *even STABLE* is "not a resource for end-users". From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 16 23:49:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE4D106566B for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from William@FutureCIS.com) Received: from mail1.futurecis.com (mail.futurecis.com [72.66.123.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCDA8FC17 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:49:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.0.100] (arawn.futurecis.com [10.0.0.100]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: wbentley) by mail1.futurecis.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6ACEA9962; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:31:59 -0500 (EST) From: William Bentley To: John Kozubik In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: Future CIS, Corp. Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:32:07 -0500 Message-ID: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: WBentley@FutureCIS.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:49:56 -0000 I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. I also have several FreeBSD installations spread across different development/production systems and it is not feasible to always upgrade to the latest and greatest. Part of why FreeBSD is difficult to adopt into more of the commercial/government sectors is because of this fast paced release cycle and most of the important patches/fixes are not backported far enough. This is why most of my customers decide to use Solaris or RedHat and not FreeBSD. (Not looking to start a flame war about the OS choice/etc just pointing out the Release cycle model). I would love to push FreeBSD harder but it is becoming increasingly difficult as of late. We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am all in favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and proper life cycle management. Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among the minority? -Will On Mon, 2012-01-16 at 14:28 -0800, John Kozubik wrote: > Friends, > > I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come out in > March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE and is typical > of a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. > > I also see that undercutting the current release before wide deployment > and maturity is continuing. 7.0 came (barely) after 6.3, which was bad > enough, but not as bad as 8.0 arriving with 7.2, and now 9.0 with 8.2. > > Finally, the culture of "that's fixed in CURRENT" or "we built those > changes into (insert next major release)" continues to get worse. It's > difficult to escape the notion that FreeBSD is becoming an operating > system by, and for, FreeBSD developers. > > > The Problems: > > > Between JohnCompanies and rsync.net, we have nearly one thousand full > blown FreeBSD systems running on three continents. We've been deploying > these systems since 2001 and since "the rift"[1] have been increasingly > subject to the following major issues, listed from most general to most > specific: > > 1) A widening gap of understanding between the developers and the end > users. Not everyone has a fantastic tool chain and build environment that > allows them to jump around from one snapshot to the next, cost free. > We've got a thousand of these things, and not only are we going to run > RELEASE software ONLY, but we're going to do everything we can to match > that environment up across as large of an installed base as possible. > The daily chatter on the lists about getting stable and getting current, > or moving to the next major release reflects a complete disconnect between > developers and end users. > > 2) Having two simultaneous production releases draws focus away from both > of them, and keeps any release from ever truly maturing. In January of > 2012, we should be on 6.12 (or so) and just breaking ground on 7.0. > Instead, each release gets perhaps two years of focused development before > every new fix is applied only to the upcoming release, and any kind of > support or enthusiasm from the community just disappears. > > This means that any serious or wide deployment gets stuck with a bad > choice every two years - keep running something that's already essentially > abandoned, or spend all of that time and money on QA, testing, > documentation, shipping, etc., all over again, just like they did two > years ago. > > Of course the retort will be: "we added ZFS and ULE, etc., and those > warranted a full release" - and maybe that's true, but since ZFS is only > now, circa 8.3 (god willing) ready for any kind of prime time > deployment[2], it would have been just fine to "release" it today, in 7.0. > > 3) Having two simultaneous production releases draws investment away from > FreeBSD, because the relevance and longevity of those fixes are unknown. > I am sure we are not the only organization that either needs new features, > or needs fixes, that just aren't on others' priority lists. In the past, > we've donated time and money[3][4] to try to push some of these things > forward, but it makes less and less sense when the lifespan of any > particular fixes are limited to the shorter and shorter lifespans of the > releases. Why pay to get this fixed today when it's either "already fixed > in CURRENT" or is already irrelevant ? Meanwhile, end users that don't > have the option to hire contract coders just lose out. > > 4) New code and fixes that people NEED TODAY just sits on the shelf for 8 > or 10 or (nowadays) 13 months while end users wait for new minor releases. > Not only does this hurt end users, but it also hurts downstream projects, > like pfsense and FreeNAS. > > Here's a good example: somewhere around 2007, a great many PCMCIA network > cards (of interest to pfsense users, like me) just quit working.[5] I > found that this was still the case in 2010. I asked Warner about it, it > got MFC'd, and I donated some hardware towards keeping these devices > maintained. So far so good. But this was in June of 2011 which means > that 8 months later this still isn't released and certainly isn't in > pfsense. Ok, fine - if I'm fiddling with PCMCIA cards in 2011, then > perhaps "get CURRENT" is a reasonable response ... but be honest, do you > have a build environment that allows you to take FreeBSD CURRENT and > generate a new pfsense build from that ? Do any pfsense end users have > that ? I don't. More frequent minor releases would be a boon here. > > 5) New code and fixes that people NEED TODAY often get pushed into the > next major release, since that's what people are working on anyway. > > A few years ago we were dying for new em(4) and twa(4) drivers in FreeBSD > 6, but they were applied only to 7 and beyond, since that was the "new > production" release (as opposed to the "old production" release). It's > the same bad choice again: make major investments in testing and people > and processes every two years, or just limp along with old, buggy drivers > and no support. > > > Suggestions: > > > Here are the specific actions that I think would dramatically improve the > focus of the project, the experience of real end users, and the ability > for third parties to truly invest in FreeBSD: > > - Stop the trend of FreeBSD being an operating system by and for FreeBSD > developers. Think about the processes and costs that large and wide > installed bases incur. Think about the logistics of major upgrades and > the difficulty of running snapshot releases, etc. Remember - if it's not > fixed in the production release, it's NOT FIXED. Serious (large) end > users have very little use for CURRENT.[6] > > - Focus on one production release at a time. Preferably for a solid five > years. In addition, provide actual legacy support for that release for > another five years after that. Five years of production and another five > years of legacy would provide a very stable platform for development and > investment, and would signal to large, complex organizations that FreeBSD > takes their needs seriously. > > - Release a minor revision every 4 months. This sounds aggressive, but > it's a lot easier if the project isn't simultaneously working on a second > "production" release at the same time. > > > Thank you for reading this. I look forward to comments and discussion. > > > John Kozubik > > > [1] http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-September/006630.html > [2] Thank you for not hijacking the thread RE: production-worthiness of > ZFS. Just read freebsd-fs for a bit and you'll be sufficiently wary. > [3] http://blog.kozubik.com/john_kozubik/2009/01/64bit-freebsd-quotas.html > [4] http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/2007cb.html > [5] http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=115623#reply12 > [6] It's worth reminding people that the official stance of the FreeBSD > project is that *even STABLE* is "not a resource for end-users". > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 00:01:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B422106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:01:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090198FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:01:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0H01jYm091890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:01:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:02:47 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WBentley@FutureCIS.com References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> In-Reply-To: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:01:52 -0000 On 1/16/12 3:32 PM, William Bentley wrote: > I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. > Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the > only one who felt this way. [...] > We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am all > in favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and proper > life cycle management. > > Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among the > minority? > > > -Will > > It pretty much boils down to one thing.. man power.. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 00:06:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9171065672 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9088A8FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:06:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obcwo16 with SMTP id wo16so2285761obc.13 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:06:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=iEZ54sjkKJw8nXy/IBJSAbd9KZ8MjQekCbpaEqFMu90=; b=jJgvkn5XfsvnJquTr9hYcXbBL3sSZXCAKX0vI+TKU5sfx+nNgvBYWVzeock1MnGPe1 7f7+qSO2RD9JWDIEr72LW/lOIrlGtvQw0yebG6cLXcZ3tyASxGrF0k7A3NinLzZkrx9f z4jTmYm/rzxKqT8snMc/3HdJJA0Ao+58Rcxb8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.41.5 with SMTP id b5mr9863369obl.79.1326758806147; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.5.162 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:06:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:06:46 -0800 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: WBentley@futurecis.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:06:46 -0000 On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM, William Bentley wrote: > I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. > Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the > only one who felt this way. > > I also have several FreeBSD installations spread across different > development/production systems and it is not feasible to always upgrade > to the latest and greatest. Part of why FreeBSD is difficult to adopt > into more of the commercial/government sectors is because of this fast > paced release cycle and most of the important patches/fixes are not > backported far enough. This is why most of my customers decide to use > Solaris or RedHat and not FreeBSD. (Not looking to start a flame war > about the OS choice/etc just pointing out the Release cycle model). I > would love to push FreeBSD harder but it is becoming increasingly > difficult as of late. > > We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am all > in favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and proper > life cycle management. > > Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among the > minority? You aren't. There are other people like Devin Teske's group that feel the same (they're upgrading from 4.x to 8.2! Brave man.. and godspeed to him), along with some development organizations that depend on long release cycles (IronPort, Isilon, etc). That being said. More people, more likelihood to succeed with what you need, like julian@ suggests. I like long release cycles too for stuff that I find critical and "in production", like my router. My fileserver is a slightly different story, but I just got off the CURRENT bandwagon off on to the 9-STABLE bandwagon :). Cheers, -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 00:13:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7301065678 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:13:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022958FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:13:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0H0Dt9o034972; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0H0DmPp034969; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:13:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:13:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Julian Elischer In-Reply-To: <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , WBentley@FutureCIS.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:13:58 -0000 Julian, On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Julian Elischer wrote: > It pretty much boils down to one thing.. man power.. Wouldn't there be more manpower available for more frequent minor releases if the project were not undertaking two simultaneous "production" releases ? Specifically, wouldn't it have been feasible to be at 8.4 right now if much of 2011 had not been spent breaking ground on 9.0 ? Further, isn't the lack of focus, or "polish" of the current release also impacted by these decisions ? Of course there is a limited amount of manpower, but for the points I raised that was a symptom, not a cause... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 01:20:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE592106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1363d33761=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522328FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:20:52 +0000 (UTC) X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:09:29 +0000 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:09:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=6.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST shortcircuit=ham autolearn=disabled version=3.2.5 Received: from r2d2 ([188.220.16.49]) by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) (MDaemon PRO v10.0.4) with ESMTP id md50017587662.msg for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:09:27 +0000 X-MDRemoteIP: 188.220.16.49 X-Return-Path: prvs=1363d33761=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: From: "Steven Hartland" To: "John Kozubik" , References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:09:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:20:52 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Kozubik" To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:28 PM Subject: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle > > Friends, > > I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come out in > March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE and is typical > of a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. ... I must say as a small company that runs ~200 machines on FreeBSD I do see where John is coming from, as it is very time consuming to keep things up to date and new is not always better e.g. we still have boxes stuck on 6.x as issues introduced in the Linux compat after that caused problems. That said I'm in two minds as the features that have been brought in by the more rapid dev cycle like ZFS have been great. Where I do see an issue is where it feels like we've just got to a solid 8.2 release with p6 and some addition patches we see things like em driver updates required to run newer hardware only in 9. While we might like to push everything to 9 it brings with it a large amount of untested changes like the HPN patches to core ssh which we have seen problems with under openssh-portable when tested. So this puts us in a dilemma, push to 9 and keep up to date or stick with 8.2 with custom patches while we wait for 8.3 which we know is good and assuming it has the patches need included in it? The correct answer for us is currently unknown and is still being debated, but in the mean time we are going to keep with 8.2 until we've had the chance to fully evaluate what 9 has to offer. Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 01:29:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B83C10657CC for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:29:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4BF1A8FC1D for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:29:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 55195 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 01:02:37 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (43% of Full) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:03:34 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:29:19 -0000 thanks john. i've been a long-time (10+ years) freeBSD user (desktops, laptops, servers, and anywhere else i can run it) and advocate (encouraging others to at least check it out) and also a long-time satisfied johnco customer. my freeBSD days seem to be coming to an end. i bought myself a LENOVO T510 when it first came out, around early 2010. it's got an i5 CPU and Arrandale GPU. it's two years old and on freeBSD i STILL can't run xorg properly with it. linux has run fine with it since i opened the box. last i checked, freeBSD will be support this GPU in R9... or maybe R10...? i really like freeBSD's robustness, especially compared to linux, among other things. i like that freeBSD is genetically a "real" unix... what's the real difference between BSD and linux? BSD was developed by unix hackers porting the OS to PC hardware; linux was developed by PC hackers trying to make their own version of unix. these origins are still very apparent, if one knows where to look. i like that i can set up a freeBSD bare-bones (eg secure) mail-server or web-server in an afternoon. but none of that matters if the damn thing just doesn't work. over the last two years, and it pains me to say this, i've been running linux on that T510. but it gets worse... i've been finding that i'm simply more productive on that machine, and spending more time in front of it, and more time getting useful things done. i understand that it's ultimately a matter of manpower and resources, and linux seems to have more momentum and "sex appeal", but i'm finding myself in a real crisis of faith... the OS that i've been using and loving for 10+ years seems to be dying, from any real usability perspective. and for now, i'm slowly and reluctantly migrating towards linux. -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." -- Dick Cheney, 16 March 2003 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 02:05:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6FB106564A; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:05:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from richo@psych0tik.net) Received: from bedford.accountservergroup.com (bedford.accountservergroup.com [50.22.11.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC958FC0A; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:05:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boxand.lnk.telstra.net ([203.45.130.125] helo=richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au) by bedford.accountservergroup.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RmxRb-0002CJ-Bi; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:02:35 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:02:39 +1100 From: richo To: John Kozubik Message-ID: <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://natalya.psych0tik.net/~richo/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - bedford.accountservergroup.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - psych0tik.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@FutureCIS.com, William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:05:12 -0000 --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline On 16/01/12 16:13 -0800, John Kozubik wrote: > >Julian, > >On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Julian Elischer wrote: > >>It pretty much boils down to one thing.. man power.. > > >Wouldn't there be more manpower available for more frequent minor >releases if the project were not undertaking two simultaneous >"production" releases ? Specifically, wouldn't it have been feasible >to be at 8.4 right now if much of 2011 had not been spent breaking >ground on 9.0 ? > >Further, isn't the lack of focus, or "polish" of the current release >also impacted by these decisions ? > >Of course there is a limited amount of manpower, but for the points I >raised that was a symptom, not a cause... This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. In many instances the devs in question wouldn't have the motivation to work on the maintenence release, in others the work is sponsored but is moving in a direction that is fundamentally incompatible with the 8.x release. I'm not trying to refute your input, just offering some insight about how it may not be strictly accurate. -- richo || Today's excuse: Please excuse me, I have to circuit an AC line through my head to get this database working. http://blog.psych0tik.net --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPFMivAAoJEIKiWz6J5yQVIQEIAMC9IlJfx6yDb1q3d308KXxd GlAQhigcX5yVa51mx+LWBgpzbQbibSdwAgDjM+8f7QSk75WWcGlB8KW1ARSIPRO4 q1oHnh/jgPdM1f/WPQHk/XNxUID58cUjBY/RmmT10ZEkbk+hGFRfN0Eq1OLvD5W/ IxMAkdrWE67mScOPibydlPH5asj9LL6s/+1T9uvJDa9G/ysvv86YOj1lNxLQpJ6Q F1SdtpxkiSX5Ih/668+F/XhEhzNu/QDWav4rhRVyMXm0xGhEGzvv4n+bIqIdhW67 ZWOlGJbXevH9DQv5Vqlizb+f9DGKIwT7b198ZGfpifhnFG0GU+OSvE+BckiE3Cw= =TTEt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 02:25:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEF2106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:25:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from richo@psych0tik.net) Received: from bedford.accountservergroup.com (bedford.accountservergroup.com [50.22.11.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27DD8FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:25:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boxand.lnk.telstra.net ([203.45.130.125] helo=richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au) by bedford.accountservergroup.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rmyk6-00038R-Fq; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:25:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:25:44 +1100 From: richo To: Igor Mozolevsky Message-ID: <20120117022544.GB29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://natalya.psych0tik.net/~richo/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - bedford.accountservergroup.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - psych0tik.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , WBentley@futurecis.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:25:52 -0000 --61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline On 17/01/12 02:21 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >On 17 January 2012 01:02, richo wrote: > >> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. > >Isn't this a bit of a cyclical argument: developers don't work because >they are not paid a salary, the end-user base shrinks, BigCo doesn't >want to pay for someone to put extra work in getting fBSD to do >something that it can get elsewhere (eg Linux), fewer still developers >work on fBSD, end-user base shrinks, BigCo is even more reluctant, >even fewer.... Potentially, but it doesn't invalidate it, imo. I'm very aware that the code I produce for $WORK is very different to code I write in my own time. Code for $WORK is wrapped in test cases, clean, neat and well documented. code I write in my own time tends to be hackish, incomplete totally undocumented and ludicrously easy to break because I'm intrigued by implementing a single interesting figure that has my attention, or to see whether or not a concept is technically feasible. This is a shortcoming of mine that I should work to overcome, but I feel that the same thing would likely extend to other developers, though in most cases to a lesser degree. Without some other motivation most people naturally gravitate towards newer "cool" features, rather than doing the relatively boring maintenence and backporting. Note though, that recognising this highlights my respect for the people who take the time to do it, even though it may not be as "cool" as working on the latest and greatest new feature. -- richo || Today's excuse: emissions from GSM-phones http://blog.psych0tik.net --61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPFNwoAAoJEIKiWz6J5yQVdZEH/i2n3xvZULMRghJ/6Oc4Qptd 3LdrOy1mqWJq097eDhQ1pgD5/Su2aKnnmOeGe3d6rxdKu0ppU/Axgbx58dyn1Xdc 2jE5cGAZ4xYckC6a1sp35PIk3+1aWeX/ekkBwegULTdNii8Y1V/fyoUiZhuoDpO/ K4/VFAwUzgCpY9OkylIw0laicLOl0dtlt6Z7TO4925kQhZKO7PL/uVQ7UTxK6VBP kkT2yTioYpT/qi7XjME4ROMpELj8IwG9ioUIaQPc7FGFeCFqSUxyAgqMxYUyDbbu JWQGhby2Zltp0yBu/DiCzeolncYZ/Tjni/Ebt+UpVtrUuVuA7fLcU0s1HAj0ms0= =ZrUs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --61jdw2sOBCFtR2d/-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 02:44:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96848106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:44:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657CF8FC1E for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:44:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dady13 with SMTP id y13so2538152dad.13 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:44:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=nenrF366NwwTkt6paWPVUk5PfOtM6yhITAaL9wgnVnE=; b=pipetGu5ESHtRw3X+MBnTKfqN5CBbRG4mlrMh/eDNBdeKIo9253kwFGqlf9ZzcKiO7 V7Z7tF2fiRdMe9Dg14fFIa6K8ucb87BwFszW29PkgwvEPZvVBIwSg+7RWqzeaUnEFf5r PBsnUz+wcwl3hsZSGdW/vWCnS3GBuK9fuSBSk= Received: by 10.68.134.42 with SMTP id ph10mr31027319pbb.48.1326768242121; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:44:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:43:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120117022544.GB29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> <20120117022544.GB29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:43:21 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: c0LG2qYWnmqezoR-hRZ4I9ievo4 Message-ID: To: richo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , WBentley@futurecis.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:44:02 -0000 On 17 January 2012 02:25, richo wrote: > On 17/01/12 02:21 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> >> On 17 January 2012 01:02, richo wrote: >> >>> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. >> >> >> Isn't this a bit of a cyclical argument: developers don't work because >> they are not paid a salary, the end-user base shrinks, BigCo doesn't >> want to pay for someone to put extra work in getting fBSD to do >> something that it can get elsewhere (eg Linux), fewer still developers >> work on fBSD, end-user base shrinks, BigCo is even more reluctant, >> even fewer.... > > > Potentially, but it doesn't invalidate it, imo. > > I'm very aware that the code I produce for $WORK is very different to code I > write in my own time. Code for $WORK is wrapped in test cases, clean, neat > and well documented. > > code I write in my own time tends to be hackish, incomplete totally > undocumented and ludicrously easy to break because I'm intrigued by > implementing a single interesting figure that has my attention, or to see > whether or not a concept is technically feasible. > > This is a shortcoming of mine that I should work to overcome, but I feel > that > the same thing would likely extend to other developers, though in most cases > to a lesser degree. Without some other motivation most people naturally > gravitate towards newer "cool" features, rather than doing the relatively > boring maintenence and backporting. Are you not making a case for long and thin release cycle vs short and fat then? It's absolutely fine to have a branch (let's call that "development") that is cool-and-funky and breaks in 70% of the cases so long as there is another branch (let's call it "release") that is not-so-cool-and-funky, but only breaks in 1% of the cases, but is well documented, tested, &c and have the developer satisfaction of not only having implemented something cool, but knowing that once that cool is stable enough, that feature is used in environments where stability and dependability matters? A cool feature that nobody can rely on is, quite frankly, junk; is it not? To be realistic, I think any serious developer should expect to spend 70% of their development time on maintenance, for a simple reason that if the software is not maintained to the standard that end-users find usable, they will simply switch, and the user-base to test your latest cool-and-funky gets smaller and smaller... Of course, one way to avoid the 70% being spent on maintenance is to write flawless software, but good luck with that! ;-) This goes back to one of the points that John K. made: who is the system for, the developers or the end users? A system for the latter will quite happily give enough playground for the former, but a system for the former, will never work for the latter. Which, I suppose, is why your $WORK demands a certain quality of code---one way or another their livelihood depends on it!.. -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 02:44:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F51C106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:44:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665C58FC15 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:44:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0H2in1S056537 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:44:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <4F14E0A1.4080306@rawbw.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:44:49 -0800 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111226 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:44:50 -0000 On 01/16/2012 17:03, Atom Smasher wrote: > > i bought myself a LENOVO T510 when it first came out, around early > 2010. it's got an i5 CPU and Arrandale GPU. it's two years old and on > freeBSD i STILL can't run xorg properly with it. linux has run fine > with it since i opened the box. last i checked, freeBSD will be > support this GPU in R9... or maybe R10...? The usual explanation for this is that FreeBSD is the server OS and doesn't need to worry about desktop-only hardware. (Not that I agree with such position.) I noticed that FreeBSD overall isn't too good for laptops (correct me if I am wrong). Even if Arrandale GPU worked, there is no working network manager in kde or gnome, able to find and setup WiFi networks without user typing anything. Also FreeBSD isn't able to enter (and come back from) the sleep mode. Also it can't stop the hard drives when the system is idle (last time I tried I got system crash). These make it very difficult to use FreeBSD on the laptops. Major usability issues. Yuri From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 02:47:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB04106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:47:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09358FC19 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:47:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dady13 with SMTP id y13so2539412dad.13 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:47:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ut89nfqwGiiMDlaJSDJPOAMAgqlSnpUAEAAWi4yeLnY=; b=jwyisjB8a/LEcfHmGwEqkfH2ING7mb5pGqsJNag6eSN8z/u9OmxgdZ2N7zF9whbTHX X2/ZdeIB67TR+9OjdmOXOVleRo8CzAQiY8WXMI4/qrzqyordBMvFuDmoYko4HY7BA30/ 6hOgIcJYX3JeYTLw+84+DhAlBw/h1DckYPm3c= Received: by 10.68.74.170 with SMTP id u10mr30683249pbv.99.1326766912121; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:21:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:21:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:21:11 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: REaPxA65dLLWmCaECsxUlGm5fcs Message-ID: To: richo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , WBentley@futurecis.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 02:47:17 -0000 On 17 January 2012 01:02, richo wrote: > This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. Isn't this a bit of a cyclical argument: developers don't work because they are not paid a salary, the end-user base shrinks, BigCo doesn't want to pay for someone to put extra work in getting fBSD to do something that it can get elsewhere (eg Linux), fewer still developers work on fBSD, end-user base shrinks, BigCo is even more reluctant, even fewer.... -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 03:36:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45AE106564A; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:36:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 172-17-198-245.globalsuite.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5994F14DAC0; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:35:59 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F14EC9E.6000906@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:35:58 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , WBentley@FutureCIS.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:36:00 -0000 On 01/16/2012 16:02, Julian Elischer wrote: > It pretty much boils down to one thing.. man power.. If the basic design of the system is wrong, it doesn't matter how many person-hours you throw at it (or don't). -- It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short. Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 06:19:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4530E106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:19:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC1628FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:19:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 89368 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 06:19:06 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (40% of Full) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:20:03 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20120117022544.GB29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> <20120117022544.GB29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:19:08 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: > I'm very aware that the code I produce for $WORK is very different to > code I write in my own time. Code for $WORK is wrapped in test cases, > clean, neat and well documented. > > code I write in my own time tends to be hackish, incomplete totally > undocumented and ludicrously easy to break because I'm intrigued by > implementing a single interesting figure that has my attention, or to > see whether or not a concept is technically feasible. ==================== code i write for work is (typically) under pressure of time and money. sometimes good documentation is more important than good code, sometimes documentation is irrelevant. at work i've been complimented for getting things done on time and under budget, but NEVER for getting it done right. code i write in my own time is art. i wouldn't write a sloppy song in my spare time, and i don't write sloppy code in my spare time. -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- A student asked his old Sufi Master if he should tie up his camel for the night, so that it wouldn't wander away while they were sleeping or if doing so was an insult to God. Should he leave the camel untied to show his trust in God that the camel wouldn't run away? The Master replied "Trust God AND tie up your camel." From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 06:20:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BBB106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:20:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BF18FC1A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:20:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0H6K8LV038349; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0H6K3Sn038346; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:20:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:20:03 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Steven Hartland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:20:11 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Steven Hartland wrote: >> I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come out in >> March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE and is typical of >> a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. > > ... > > I must say as a small company that runs ~200 machines on FreeBSD > I do see where John is coming from, as it is very time consuming to keep > things up to date and new is not always better e.g. we still have boxes > stuck on 6.x as issues introduced in the Linux compat after that caused > problems. > > That said I'm in two minds as the features that have been brought in by > the more rapid dev cycle like ZFS have been great. The features are great - nobody doesn't want the features! Like I said in the original post, as wonderful as ZFS on FreeBSD is (and we are deploying it this year) it is only now (well, in March) with 8.3 that I feel it is finally safe and stable enough to bet the farm on. I'm not the only one that feels this way. If that's the case, then, ZFS could have been developed just as it has, in a development branch, and not been used as justification for (mutiple) major releases and all of their disruption. As I said in the original post - we should be on 6.12 right now, and bringing out 7.0, with ZFS v28. > Where I do see an issue is where it feels like we've just got to a solid > 8.2 release with p6 and some addition patches we see things like em driver > updates required to run newer hardware only in 9. That's a few releases in a row now where "legacy" gets locked out of new motherboards because of em(4). But I digress... > While we might like to push everything to 9 it brings with it a large > amount of untested changes like the HPN patches to core ssh which we > have seen problems with under openssh-portable when tested. > > So this puts us in a dilemma, push to 9 and keep up to date or stick > with 8.2 with custom patches while we wait for 8.3 which we know is > good and assuming it has the patches need included in it? Exactly. We're in the same boat. Longer, dedicated lifecycle, extended legacy support, and more frequent minor releases were my original suggestions. Why not take the "newer production release" (or whatever 9.0 is) and rename it "development" ? Why couldn't this change happen today, specifically with 8.x and 9.x ? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 06:27:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064A4106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:27:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34268FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:27:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so1348706vbb.13 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:27:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=eyjBiFes96GkKVmFub2JwGgIxzJ7jH9y3piN5rjvBh0=; b=hqcbxNgD8G8gF2uNezeLZaT6lT62fKdk4u9ISEinl/2RP58gXhMg4c3WNLFxMRYg5G V5J/LJzWaDh1bG46G+Pu2oQ86/wczwem9dWSn7x+hxw+dBh/YbtlS57jfNFDWb7w+RVl 0bpkr7oL9I1lO5Me30aJtuDG8LckzHR8qHsO8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.91.17 with SMTP id ca17mr7502126vdb.56.1326780267014; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.191.130 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.191.130 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:04:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:04:26 -0800 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:27:50 -0000 Just a note before everyone goes off on wonderful things were with FreeBSD 4.x going all the way to 4.11: 4.x is an anomoly in the history of FreeBSD major versions, being the only release with more than 4? 5? minor releases. There were only a couple minor versions of 1.x; there were only a couple of minor versions of 2.x; there were only a couple minor versions of 3.x; and so on through to 8.x. IOW, the 'glory days before 5.0' is really no different than the days since 5.0. Looking at the complete history of FreeBSD releases, 4.x is the outlier that needs to be discarded for the stats to make sense. (Or something like that, I've failed stats 3 times now.) :) When I started with FreeBSD, there were two production releases available: 2.2.something and 3.1. They even came in the same box set from Walnut Creek? Forget where I ordered them online now. Shortly after, 4.0 was released, but 3.x was stil developped. The only difference between pre-5 and post-5 is the switch from feature-based releases that could take years to develop, to time-based releases that ship at mostly-regular times, with whatever features are ready. The latter is actually more useful, as you can plan ahead of time as you know the general timeframes between major versions. So, let's keep a little perspective in the discussion, and not ignore the past history of FreeBSD releases. Cheers, Freddie From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 08:24:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33925106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:24:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7538FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:24:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so7437995iag.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:24:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dGaNo9WXe0fhN7+1rplJGiE9elGNJnt8EGbjocYS2vA=; b=r+VhOX5DyQHbx8CLuFmcFkMgE0ztSEr3J/wTUZD8ocPm+mtXCJOsOtncjSWdzUeACN UTsHR/otbLz6ZEogiASFVtusm8NxovTeOLDBrDq86yQG2x6KpoRrcnX7XJpy0OUGy+9Y yVeBYuPsodoVkLuPH9g5CApuzgjPfXVtVtR64= Received: by 10.50.188.166 with SMTP id gb6mr16455088igc.18.1326786775273; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:52:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.122.169 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:52:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Royce Williams Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:52:34 -0900 Message-ID: To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:24:19 -0000 John's trying to manage risk. =A0Switching from RELEASE to CURRENT adds a lot of risk and churn, when most folks in this class of use case just need a few very specific drivers and bugfixes (what some OSes call "hotfixes".) John sounds willing to trade a little bit of local risk (and testing time) in exchange for a way to self-serve a hotfix without abandoning RELEASE. =A0How can we enable that? There are simple cases -- the ones that just need a few files and a kernel module -- that seem within easy reach. =A0For example, the eRacks guys generated these handy binaries for mps(4) for 7.4, 8.0, 8.1 and 8.2: http://blog.eracks.com/2011/08/lsi-logic-6gbps-mps-driver-for-freebsd-8-2-r= elease/ For me, this was perfect: I got to have my cake (tracking 8.1-RELEASE, and using freebsd-update) and eat it too (support for specific newer hardware). =A0If security updates break my mps(4), I'm on my own -- but it's still a much better balance of risk for me than switching to CURRENT. I know that some fixes are harder than just adding a kernel module. =A0I know that the standards for releasing errata are high, and they should be. =A0But I wish there was a way to optionally lower that threshold and say: "Yes, I know this might eat my data. =A0Let me judge and test that for myself without otherwise abandoning RELEASE." =A0If there was a way to mark hotfixes as "worked for me" (to let the better ones bubble up to the top), we non-coders could even help manage the list. I can't do it myself, but I would happily help brainstorm, test =A0-- and commit $100 or more, Kickstarter-style, to fund someone else's work. Royce From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 09:33:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73346106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:33:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@my.gd) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9408FC12 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:33:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgbgn7 with SMTP id gn7so2808747wgb.31 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.83.72 with SMTP id o8mr20901369wiy.22.1326791397680; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfleuriot-at-hi-media.com ([83.167.62.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n3sm41836597wiz.9.2012.01.17.01.09.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:09:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:09:55 +0100 From: Damien Fleuriot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:33:34 -0000 On 1/16/12 11:28 PM, John Kozubik wrote: > > Friends, > > I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come out in > March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE and is typical > of a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. > > I also see that undercutting the current release before wide deployment > and maturity is continuing. 7.0 came (barely) after 6.3, which was bad > enough, but not as bad as 8.0 arriving with 7.2, and now 9.0 with 8.2. > > Finally, the culture of "that's fixed in CURRENT" or "we built those > changes into (insert next major release)" continues to get worse. It's > difficult to escape the notion that FreeBSD is becoming an operating > system by, and for, FreeBSD developers. > Wholeheartedly agree. I'm having an increasingly difficult time defending FreeBSD in our company against the advances of debian kfree which is much easier to maintain. Can we get back to the 4.x release style and, hopefully, see some 9.7, 9.8... ? Check this PR I opened some months ago: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=161123&cat=kern It was planned for 9.0-RELEASE, there is no mention of 8.x That's just the kind of problem John raises here. I can't keep on defending FreeBSD when the minor fix to a major bug isn't backported, and only makes it to the next major version, 4 or 5 months from now. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 09:48:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007B0106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:48:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE0C8FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:47:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id LAA04762; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:47:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1Rn5ds-0005Ep-Pv; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:47:48 +0200 Message-ID: <4F1543C2.8050404@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:47:46 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kozubik References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:48:00 -0000 on 17/01/2012 00:28 John Kozubik said the following: > we going to run RELEASE software ONLY My opinion: you've put yourself in a box that is not very compatible with the current FreeBSD release strategy. With your scale and restrictions you probably should just use the FreeBSD source and roll your own releases from a stable branch of interest (including testing, etc). Or have your own "branch" where you could cherry-pick interesting changes from any FreeBSD branches. Tools like e.g. git and mercurial make it easy. Of course, this strategy is not as easy as trying to persuade the rest of FreeBSD community/project/thing to change its ways, but perhaps a little bit more realistic. You can bond with similarly minded organizations to share costs/work/etc. It's a community-driven project after all. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 10:28:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086FC106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:28:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD6328FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:28:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 26634 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 06:28:37 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (40% of Full) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:29:35 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4F14E0A1.4080306@rawbw.com> Message-ID: References: <4F14E0A1.4080306@rawbw.com> OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:28:39 -0000 On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Yuri wrote: > On 01/16/2012 17:03, Atom Smasher wrote: >> >> i bought myself a LENOVO T510 when it first came out, around early >> 2010. it's got an i5 CPU and Arrandale GPU. it's two years old and on >> freeBSD i STILL can't run xorg properly with it. linux has run fine >> with it since i opened the box. last i checked, freeBSD will be support >> this GPU in R9... or maybe R10...? > > The usual explanation for this is that FreeBSD is the server OS and > doesn't need to worry about desktop-only hardware. (Not that I agree > with such position.) I noticed that FreeBSD overall isn't too good for > laptops (correct me if I am wrong). Even if Arrandale GPU worked, there > is no working network manager in kde or gnome, able to find and setup > WiFi networks without user typing anything. Also FreeBSD isn't able to > enter (and come back from) the sleep mode. Also it can't stop the hard > drives when the system is idle (last time I tried I got system crash). > These make it very difficult to use FreeBSD on the laptops. Major > usability issues. ================== so i guess that means that i'm tougher than a typical laptop user... and instead of making things easier, freeBSD is getting harder. thing is, when people don't "play" with freeBSD on laptops and desktops, then they grow up, get real jobs, and don't know much about it. if this keeps up, i'll cross a line where i just get more comfortable with linux and migrate my freeBSD servers to it. this is one of the areas where linux is doing well... people are "playing" with it, but in the process they're getting used to it and comfortable with it. from that background, they can install a linux based server without breaking a sweat. linux's ease of use and hardware support are seeding the next generation of FLOSS and *nix users... and most of them have never installed/used freeBSD. -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "Don't suspect your friends - turn them in!" -- Brazil From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 11:42:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894E6106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:42:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB758FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:42:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn7QR-00037l-26 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:42:03 +0100 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:42:03 +0100 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:42:03 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:41:48 +0100 Lines: 78 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20120110 Thunderbird/9.0 In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:42:11 -0000 (answering out of order) On 16/01/2012 23:28, John Kozubik wrote: > 2) Having two simultaneous production releases draws focus away from > both of them, and keeps any release from ever truly maturing. This isn't how things work. The -CURRENT always has (and probably always had and always will have) the focus of developers. The "releases" are for many people simply a periodical annoyance due to freezes. In no way will reducing the number of "production releases" change this. As a volunteer effort, backports to stable branches only happen when 1) it's in the interest of the developer, e.g. "I've found a bug on my systems, want to get it fixed in -STABLE" and 2) when the developer is budged by outside forces (users complaining, other developers requesting it) and 3) they think it's worth doing and have time to do it spontaneously. These are in order of likelihood to happen. You could say the question is: why is it so, but I think you know the answer to that: small project, not enough manpower and volunteer-hours. However, the situation is actually quite good because the developers are usually very responsive to MFC requests... > going to > run RELEASE software ONLY > 4) New code and fixes that people NEED TODAY just sits on the shelf for > 8 or 10 or (nowadays) 13 months while end users wait for new minor > releases. ... except if you expect regular releases :) I've concluded very early that because of what I've said above, the only way to run FreeBSD effectively is to track -STABLE. The developers MFC-ing stuff usually try hard not to break things so -STABLE has become a sort of "running RELEASE" branch. Since -STABLE is so ... stable ..., there is less and less incentive to make proper releases (though I think nobody would mind it happening). The next question is: what do releases from a -STABLE branch bring in that simply tracking the original -STABLE tree doesn't? Lately, not very much. Since there is a huge number of users and developers tracking -STABLE, the testing done specifically for a X.Y, Y>0 RELEASE is not very extensive, so you just as well could have tracked -STABLE. I'm sure you know how easy it is to upgrade a STABLE-running system, and there are simple ways in which that can be made to scale to thousands of machines. Breakage is of course a risk, but not significantly greater than for any other upgrading. > of 2012, we should be on 6.12 (or so) and just breaking ground on 7.0. > Instead, each release gets perhaps two years of focused development > before every new fix is applied only to the upcoming release, and any > kind of support or enthusiasm from the community just disappears. If you're saying that -STABLE branches don't get fixes fast enough, I'd disagree. > A few years ago we were dying for new em(4) and twa(4) drivers in > FreeBSD 6, but they were applied only to 7 and beyond, since that was > the "new production" release (as opposed to the "old production" > release). It's the same bad choice again: make major investments in > testing and people and processes every two years, or just limp along > with old, buggy drivers and no support. Have you tried contacting the developers of those drivers? The most likely causes the drivers weren't MFC-ed are either that they were experimental enough that it was feared for their stability or that they didn't think anyone needs drivers MFC-ed. The situation you describe is certainly not FreeBSD-specific: Debian is notoriously slow in adopting new features, but so is Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which had the ancient (2006 vintage) 2.6.18 kernel throughout its 5.x cycle (still active in 2011) - though updated with new drivers. Compared to these, FreeBSD is in many ways a pleasure to work with. Seriously, just think of -STABLE as a "rolling release", just like the ports tree. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 11:47:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F0F106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:47:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155458FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:47:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn7Vr-0005jb-2P for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:39 +0100 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:39 +0100 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:39 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:47:27 +0100 Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20120110 Thunderbird/9.0 In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:47:40 -0000 On 17/01/2012 07:20, John Kozubik wrote: > as wonderful as ZFS on FreeBSD is (and we are > deploying it this year) it is only now (well, in March) with 8.3 that I > feel it is finally safe and stable enough to bet the farm on. I'm not > the only one that feels this way. I must remember to ask you about your experiences with ZFS in about a year from now :) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 12:21:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F4D106566B; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:21:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273968FC0A; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:21:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HCLSBG034507; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:21:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id q0HCLRsh034506; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:21:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:21:27 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <201201171221.q0HCLRsh034506@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: Kostik Belousov , freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, Julian Elischer , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Oliver Fromme In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-net User-Agent: tin/1.9.6-20101126 ("Burnside") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.3.9 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:21:43 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: Processes' FIBs X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:21:45 -0000 Kostik Belousov wrote: > The patch misses compat32 bits and breaks compat32 ps/top. Right, thank you for pointing it out! I missed it because I only have i386 for testing. I've created new patch sets for releng8 and current. These include compat32 support and an entry for the manual page. Would someone with amd64 please test the compat32 part? I've been using this code on i386 for a few days without any problems. I've attached the patch for current below. Both patch sets are also available from this URL: http://www.secnetix.de/olli/tmp/ki_fibnum/ Testing is easy: Apply the patch, rebuild bin/ps and kernel. Make sure that your kernel config has "options ROUTETABLES=16" so multiple FIBs are supported. Reboot. Open a shell with setfib, e.g. "setfib 3 /bin/sh" (no root required), type "ps -ax -o user,pid,fib,command" or something similar, and verify that the shell process and its children are listed with the correct FIB. When testing on amd64, use both the native ps and an i386 binary. Thank you very much! Best regards Oliver --- sys/sys/user.h.orig 2011-11-07 22:13:19.000000000 +0100 +++ sys/sys/user.h 2012-01-17 11:33:59.000000000 +0100 @@ -83,7 +83,7 @@ * it in two places: function fill_kinfo_proc in sys/kern/kern_proc.c and * function kvm_proclist in lib/libkvm/kvm_proc.c . */ -#define KI_NSPARE_INT 9 +#define KI_NSPARE_INT 8 #define KI_NSPARE_LONG 12 #define KI_NSPARE_PTR 6 @@ -186,6 +186,7 @@ */ char ki_sparestrings[50]; /* spare string space */ int ki_spareints[KI_NSPARE_INT]; /* spare room for growth */ + int ki_fibnum; /* Default FIB number */ u_int ki_cr_flags; /* Credential flags */ int ki_jid; /* Process jail ID */ int ki_numthreads; /* XXXKSE number of threads in total */ --- sys/kern/kern_proc.c.orig 2012-01-15 19:47:24.000000000 +0100 +++ sys/kern/kern_proc.c 2012-01-17 12:52:36.000000000 +0100 @@ -836,6 +836,7 @@ kp->ki_swtime = (ticks - p->p_swtick) / hz; kp->ki_pid = p->p_pid; kp->ki_nice = p->p_nice; + kp->ki_fibnum = p->p_fibnum; kp->ki_start = p->p_stats->p_start; timevaladd(&kp->ki_start, &boottime); PROC_SLOCK(p); @@ -1121,6 +1122,7 @@ bcopy(ki->ki_comm, ki32->ki_comm, COMMLEN + 1); bcopy(ki->ki_emul, ki32->ki_emul, KI_EMULNAMELEN + 1); bcopy(ki->ki_loginclass, ki32->ki_loginclass, LOGINCLASSLEN + 1); + CP(*ki, *ki32, ki_fibnum); CP(*ki, *ki32, ki_cr_flags); CP(*ki, *ki32, ki_jid); CP(*ki, *ki32, ki_numthreads); --- sys/compat/freebsd32/freebsd32.h.orig 2011-11-11 08:17:00.000000000 +0100 +++ sys/compat/freebsd32/freebsd32.h 2012-01-17 11:34:00.000000000 +0100 @@ -319,6 +319,7 @@ char ki_loginclass[LOGINCLASSLEN+1]; char ki_sparestrings[50]; int ki_spareints[KI_NSPARE_INT]; + int ki_fibnum; u_int ki_cr_flags; int ki_jid; int ki_numthreads; --- bin/ps/keyword.c.orig 2011-09-29 08:31:42.000000000 +0200 +++ bin/ps/keyword.c 2012-01-17 12:54:49.000000000 +0100 @@ -85,6 +85,7 @@ {"etimes", "ELAPSED", NULL, USER, elapseds, 0, CHAR, NULL, 0}, {"euid", "", "uid", 0, NULL, 0, CHAR, NULL, 0}, {"f", "F", NULL, 0, kvar, KOFF(ki_flag), INT, "x", 0}, + {"fib", "FIB", NULL, 0, kvar, NULL, 2, KOFF(ki_fibnum), INT, "d", 0}, {"flags", "", "f", 0, NULL, 0, CHAR, NULL, 0}, {"gid", "GID", NULL, 0, kvar, KOFF(ki_groups), UINT, UIDFMT, 0}, {"group", "GROUP", NULL, LJUST, egroupname, 0, CHAR, NULL, 0}, --- bin/ps/ps.1.orig 2011-11-22 22:53:06.000000000 +0100 +++ bin/ps/ps.1 2012-01-17 12:56:17.000000000 +0100 @@ -29,7 +29,7 @@ .\" @(#)ps.1 8.3 (Berkeley) 4/18/94 .\" $FreeBSD: src/bin/ps/ps.1,v 1.112 2011/11/22 21:53:06 trociny Exp $ .\" -.Dd November 22, 2011 +.Dd January 17, 2012 .Dt PS 1 .Os .Sh NAME @@ -506,6 +506,9 @@ minutes:seconds. .It Cm etimes elapsed running time, in decimal integer seconds +.It Cm fib +default FIB number, see +.Xr setfib 1 .It Cm flags the process flags, in hexadecimal (alias .Cm f ) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 12:27:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BB11065670; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:27:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EA38FC18; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:27:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so1650451vbb.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:27:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=puyM0+XtTB8pjXb3ATxPaKhdYdQBoagy6mAJpFo5e3Y=; b=xaHO4QXaYQnwJfvbYe28sxUehgk7RZz0DpONSvZKW/PbyUIahJ1QROCLSgiQRNGmqo TgzgtT4OypQLqIfiarqgRppFgiY+70UaHJHKlJreFmUo70V49le6DV0ovvLuw4qHNzNS hhxOy6ZQucB3wQDuToqBCyQxor8ziqrXdbMdM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.26.8 with SMTP id h8mr7710275vdg.122.1326801749737; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.110.39 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:02:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:02:29 +0000 Message-ID: From: Tom Evans To: Ivan Voras Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:27:32 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: > I've concluded very early that because of what I've said above, the only = way > to run FreeBSD effectively is to track -STABLE. The developers MFC-ing st= uff > usually try hard not to break things so -STABLE has become a sort of > "running RELEASE" branch. Since -STABLE is so ... stable ..., there is le= ss > and less incentive to make proper releases (though I think nobody would m= ind > it happening). > > The next question is: what do releases from a -STABLE branch bring in tha= t > simply tracking the original -STABLE tree doesn't? Lately, not very much. Sorry to just pick out bits of your email Ivan=E2=80=A6 Ability to use freebsd-update. It would be better to have more frequent releases. As a prime example, ZFS became much more stable about 3 months after 8.2 was released. If you were waiting for an 8.x release that supported that improved version of ZFS, you are still waiting. You say that snapshots of STABLE are stable and effectively a running release branch, so why can't more releases be made? Is the release process too complex for minor revisions, could that be improved to make it easier to have more releases, eg by not bundling ports packages? Can it really be that the best advice for users is to run their own build infrastructure and make their own releases? I really don't want to come across as someone throwing their toys out and saying that unless everything changes I'm off to Linux-land, however there is mutterings at $JOB that too much time is spent massaging FreeBSD and that using Linux would be significantly easier to manage. Cheers Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 12:43:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D941065672 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:43:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f182.google.com (mail-yx0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CBC8FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:43:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yenq3 with SMTP id q3so836731yen.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:43:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eWh6LC48OZoBm7MyJmOCJjCB51paNaeQKeocQiNHmN8=; b=ApMahNmMX20BG5kXa8elHSStbOpn5RjI/mjPHrej2l5y0w01ZH03DB39xFnE6TvoxD uoEoULkwrQYZy08Y8KkRIWMs1o7dtTph5O1omC+59gpWOvWpeAjgXFjW35Tl1znYv2VD BIWquvfJ4pSg5WL4XmNkwQqnwa57VFxXoHNfo= Received: by 10.236.161.197 with SMTP id w45mr23045453yhk.96.1326804200136; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:43:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: ivoras@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.250.7 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 04:42:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:42:39 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2_Ufs12NfPUK8_g8Ja7my8ejYyw Message-ID: To: Tom Evans Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:43:21 -0000 On 17 January 2012 13:02, Tom Evans wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: >> I've concluded very early that because of what I've said above, the only= way >> to run FreeBSD effectively is to track -STABLE. The developers MFC-ing s= tuff >> usually try hard not to break things so -STABLE has become a sort of >> "running RELEASE" branch. Since -STABLE is so ... stable ..., there is l= ess >> and less incentive to make proper releases (though I think nobody would = mind >> it happening). >> >> The next question is: what do releases from a -STABLE branch bring in th= at >> simply tracking the original -STABLE tree doesn't? Lately, not very much= . > > Sorry to just pick out bits of your email Ivan=E2=80=A6 > > Ability to use freebsd-update. It would be better to have more > frequent releases. As a prime example, ZFS became much more stable > about 3 months after 8.2 was released. If you were waiting for an 8.x > release that supported that improved version of ZFS, you are still > waiting. You know, that's an excellent point! And maybe an excellent idea: to provide occasional, time-based STABLE snapshots for freebsd-update. > You say that snapshots of STABLE are stable and effectively a running > release branch, so why can't more releases be made? Nobody volunteered :( > Is the release process too complex for minor revisions, could that be > improved to make it easier to have more releases, eg by not bundling > ports packages? Almost certainly yes. The current release process involves src, ports and docs teams. Would you and other RELEASE users be happy with simple periodic snapshots off the STABLE branches, not much different from tracking STABLE? The only benefit I see would be a light-weight opportunity for testing which would probably end up being implemented by moving to date-based tags (e.g. if a critical bug is found and the fix MFC-ed, the "current" tag would be advanced to "$today")? > Can it really be that the best advice for users is to run their own > build infrastructure and make their own releases? Maybe. I'm trying to suggest that it looks like (I may be wrong, of course) that the effort required to upgrade from one RELEASE to the other is comparable to the effort of just having a -STABLE build machine somewhere and doing "make installkernel, make installworld, mergemaster -FU" over NFS on a 1000 machines. If you are serious about testing, you would need to test the RELEASEs also. > I really don't want to come across as someone throwing their toys out > and saying that unless everything changes I'm off to Linux-land, > however there is mutterings at $JOB that too much time is spent > massaging FreeBSD and that using Linux would be significantly easier > to manage. Personally, I actually like apt-get and the way it handles installs, updates, dependencies, suggesteions, etc. I dislike almost everything else, thoughj. But now I'm curious: how do you (and others) update from one RELEASE to the other? Just by using freebsd-update? What do you think prevents you from using -STABLE? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 13:38:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DB8106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:38:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C20B78FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:38:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 68136 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 06:31:22 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (40% of Full) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:32:20 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:38:04 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: > This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. ============== what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons." -- Bertrand Russell From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 13:45:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4198B106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:45:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5108FC12 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:45:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rn9La-0006Gz-3O for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:45:10 +0100 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:45:10 +0100 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:45:10 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:47 +0100 Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20120110 Thunderbird/9.0 In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:45:14 -0000 On 17/01/2012 07:32, Atom Smasher wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: > >> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. > ============== > > what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? Apparently, 3/4: http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 13:50:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E861065674 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:50:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF098FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:50:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dady13 with SMTP id y13so2898865dad.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:50:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Wey7jbcFwO+x4P9pjz8QprxKKTKP0Y8CY5lnrxB+Fvk=; b=BuR3lHSnqnDErtSrma0q65Cy3MUcRhZ/LzbU3ZcjoL+VldzJeOr19fglHY1eIxKN+0 tUceYpGHq3A48J9/f1jKpoxa4YhpgBAlgLDh6YbLNSIwoEDnvU/pO5Pw5TtmDoi4Hqyr clv/00dttVePsJlQECHyGSy0Qg/VA3a0q6Xz8= Received: by 10.68.73.6 with SMTP id h6mr34358025pbv.116.1326808201163; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:50:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:49:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:49:20 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Y9VG2MigNDWhwBXyQTS9WeKNA9Q Message-ID: To: Ivan Voras Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:50:02 -0000 On 17 January 2012 13:44, Ivan Voras wrote: > On 17/01/2012 07:32, Atom Smasher wrote: >> >> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: >> >>> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. >> >> ============== >> >> what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? > > Apparently, 3/4: http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm Actually, you're misrepresenting the facts: according to the headline, 75% of the code came from paid developers, *not* 75% of developers are paid... See the difference?.. -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 14:21:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2711106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f182.google.com (mail-yx0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CED08FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:21:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yenq3 with SMTP id q3so895294yen.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:21:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=vhKCb3S8HxBP9x7+3VH5Q3BEXWhPmDq85BdOf7PHMns=; b=S/AsQgNj0AD4ZvGqgWYPcJA750kNbT8z9ArIu0IeX7fte40SmEVf1aZKyoHq4wrsq+ F5uhmZBD+uKMqgj7XRHatHBSk6qMDfbiqMdnibWi4BTCnHVxmDV8P+1/hYQcA+xsZ7cF 8egemRTty97ywwOkYirWcjQy7bynjEq8lA+kc= Received: by 10.236.161.197 with SMTP id w45mr23705777yhk.96.1326810095219; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:21:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: ivoras@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.250.7 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:20:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:20:54 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: twZdY-E5taAfs76aU68Mq4hGa5U Message-ID: To: Igor Mozolevsky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:21:36 -0000 On 17 January 2012 14:49, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 17 January 2012 13:44, Ivan Voras wrote: >> On 17/01/2012 07:32, Atom Smasher wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: >>> >>>> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. >>> >>> ============== >>> >>> what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? >> >> Apparently, 3/4: http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm > > Actually, you're misrepresenting the facts: according to the headline, > 75% of the code came from paid developers, *not* 75% of developers are > paid... See the difference?.. Yes, you're correct. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 15:33:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E15E106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:33:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F338FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:33:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dady13 with SMTP id y13so2980349dad.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:33:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=DhOt/vHC2xBawYj3W3h/dHNLMfwHZ4c+22yyqzyuXFY=; b=QBItanXr+DPIoU8mHjQ2SkSIpI+GY9+MMMlCgbwLlvOsTV4+dqbk6fykkg3FdNP+N1 5L3O52bwslJ5gY91zIv6QooZMMM7fZY87U+NnXKECVjyItaS5uzbY5JnD/BK7xP26VQ8 nLp33spFlqh/1cBUNVrDhtDp1IS6zYp39PL9U= Received: by 10.68.212.73 with SMTP id ni9mr35464835pbc.82.1326814414131; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:33:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:32:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:32:53 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: CZadS5bi0bM_O1kDpmKKqKVvZ_c Message-ID: To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:33:35 -0000 On 17 January 2012 14:20, Ivan Voras wrote: > On 17 January 2012 14:49, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> On 17 January 2012 13:44, Ivan Voras wrote: >>> On 17/01/2012 07:32, Atom Smasher wrote: >>>> >>>> what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? >>> >>> Apparently, 3/4: http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm >> >> Actually, you're misrepresenting the facts: according to the headline, >> 75% of the code came from paid developers, *not* 75% of developers are >> paid... See the difference?.. > > Yes, you're correct. Actually, I don't think it's cash that's the problem. I think it is more to do with the lack of common goal: the way that releases are perceived, at least by me, are that a bunch of people "play" in current then at some point someone decides to take a "cut" of the current branch and call it a release then work toward making that "release" passable as stable. To illustrate that, I cannot find anywhere on the .org website what core@ see the desirable features of 10.0 to be, or what the committers are working toward. It seems that the "bazaar" model of development is at its worst here: everyone is doing their own thing and at some point someone decides to call it a day and make a release, nobody cares for what they have already done, but only what they want to do in the future, non-committer patches go ignored (no, I don't have a reference) which discourages end-user contribution... I'm very happy to be shown wrong here, btw!.. -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 15:39:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17504106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:39:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@feld.me) Received: from mwi1.coffeenet.org (unknown [IPv6:2607:f4e0:100:300::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EC88FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:39:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=feld.me; s=blargle; h=In-Reply-To:Message-Id:From:Mime-Version:Date:References:Subject:To:Content-Type; bh=teUJ98MHp1gigZmU9YjyMSA7wFt3KVahLLyNm7Bl2cw=; b=d7JkzH+mg3KpQdP8s7nqyVGsCrg1LgEoabJ1yIFJfiYUZd7NAF8w31LcjIDgEd5dfpTRkYJ8fALYOeUd3aMJy2nx49KwE8R622eiIZ0UPbejW55XicjIU7E7PZP2axGU; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mwi1.coffeenet.org) by mwi1.coffeenet.org with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1RnB8E-000MW7-28 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:39:34 -0600 Received: from feld@feld.me by mwi1.coffeenet.org (Archiveopteryx 3.1.4) with esmtpsa id 1326814764-88972-88971/5/21; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:39:24 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:39:24 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Felder Message-Id: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.61 (FreeBSD) X-SA-Score: -1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:39:35 -0000 Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Plenty of stuff gets MFC'd. Yeah, I agree -- running -RELEASE is difficult. Hell, it's frustrating to us that VMWare only supports -RELEASE and it took until ESX 5 to officially support 8.2! More releases / snapshots of -STABLE helps people on physical servers, but anyone who runs VMs on Xen or VMWare won't get any support for those versions because they didn't go through the QA process yet. FreeBSD is increasingly becoming a third world citizen thanks to virtualization efforts being focused on Linux, so I feel that more frequent releases won't help as many people as you think. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 16:34:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06CE106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:34:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1618FC16 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:34:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghy10 with SMTP id 10so240821ghy.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:34:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=m4W229OdFfaeCrhkp/Ha6zy+bkSy9y7UUgn1jitMv7Y=; b=aLDDiIs1uFc+4jvZ0z4Zb1WStDVBMwib0MUKw3yK60QDEk0MW7nFVUOaqFJFnATyXH pk5l2saPvGOcf+Rd3VDA2hDzedQnOgoS4xJr+tvjiewZ4Ec3BmGjjkHYb8NPpcc9/DIl FEk9OOp1bZvq+yxmjLKF7PYGIcmLWi3heLq58= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.161.135 with SMTP id xs7mr15368934igb.15.1326816328633; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.7 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.7 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:05:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: Atom Smasher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:34:16 -0000 On 17 Jan 2012 13:38, "Atom Smasher" wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: > >> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. > > ============== > > what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? > You're not comparing like with like. Linux is not an OS; FreeBSD is. Are you talking about Linux? Debian? Red Hat? Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 16:48:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B28AE106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:48:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0B48FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:48:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so1977234vbb.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=V3CJa8mKnslFyiLM037KAbMInxJjVGqJIt2k4TJa4BA=; b=dmM75ClT0JdITF+JR/YUVK1nkfDF2cNUHOTUBWIlDLro01jP75d3mS+GnieGvNp9sa qmSWHjeOCqCj0aejBcJ5OhCkaG8upsmGB+BgVCLLiZ1+UwIaeetjJtAP/RtzDiCWDyVG IJs8lTTJY51S3c6yn+aFIQ7keoyB2w28lUOAo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.89.78 with SMTP id bm14mr8770746vdb.22.1326818914765; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.191.130 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:34 -0800 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:48:35 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > Actually, I don't think it's cash that's the problem. I think it is > more to do with the lack of common goal: the way that releases are > perceived, at least by me, are that a bunch of people "play" in > current then at some point someone decides to take a "cut" of the > current branch and call it a release then work toward making that > "release" passable as stable. To illustrate that, I cannot find > anywhere on the .org website what core@ see the desirable features of > 10.0 to be, or what the committers are working toward. That would be because, with the multi-year debacle that 5.0-RELEASE became while they worked on the "features list for 5.0" (primarily SMPng), the FreeBSD Project has moved away from features-based releases and to time-based releases (although the exact timelines are not carved in stone). You won't find a list of features for the next release of FreeBSD. You'll just find a list of things that people are working on that may or may not be ready in time for the next release. The development is much closer to Ubuntu (release whatever is ready every 6 months) than to Debian (release everything when it's ready, even if it takes 2, 3, 4+ years to make it ready, while the current release grows stale). -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 16:58:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3621065672 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:58:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3A28FC14 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:58:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so2761640pbd.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:58:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=nlHsQ09G281w4wrVlpNFOkM34v3byfWkmKHOohsxIeo=; b=fEhB660Lvmb+1gZeEbCRpw3Ovteh6zFSboVzTr0XT4BLGJaESB2XG3YW8pEQJscVcH dk+DFKvsf0MbgYwxQeVGoQvuQtvRCq/y54U9soOKXNEXdUVVyRiLaZmR7xaHLOElPTXz azwl8x0S3Sv7c/elI7E2AGXUpQvnBsBz/XMvo= Received: by 10.68.190.101 with SMTP id gp5mr35710473pbc.31.1326819536114; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:58:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:58:15 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zfPPGafkIxr0tTUrUXqrJKTxpQk Message-ID: To: Freddie Cash Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:58:56 -0000 On 17 January 2012 16:48, Freddie Cash wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> Actually, I don't think it's cash that's the problem. I think it is >> more to do with the lack of common goal: the way that releases are >> perceived, at least by me, are that a bunch of people "play" in >> current then at some point someone decides to take a "cut" of the >> current branch and call it a release then work toward making that >> "release" passable as stable. To illustrate that, I cannot find >> anywhere on the .org website what core@ see the desirable features of >> 10.0 to be, or what the committers are working toward. > > That would be because, with the multi-year debacle that 5.0-RELEASE > became while they worked on the "features list for 5.0" (primarily > SMPng), the FreeBSD Project has moved away from features-based > releases and to time-based releases (although the exact timelines are > not carved in stone). > > You won't find a list of features for the next release of FreeBSD. > You'll just find a list of things that people are working on that may > or may not be ready in time for the next release. > > The development is much closer to Ubuntu (release whatever is ready > every 6 months) than to Debian (release everything when it's ready, > even if it takes 2, 3, 4+ years to make it ready, while the current > release grows stale). And this is the ridiculous "bazaar" situation that I was criticising. In contrast to Ubuntu, or other distribution on top of Linux, FreeBSD is a "whole" system. Even Ubuntu and such, take a "collection" of projects that have been developed with certain measurable goals. Yes, Ubuntu appears to be date-oriented distribution, but the software that Ubuntu incorporate into their releases is feature- and goal- oriented. FreeBSD, it seems, as I have pointed out, have no measurable goals within the project itself other than "whatever looks like it has a potential to work on date X" is going to be in our release. How can this be even considered to be serious?.. No serious manufacturer/producer says "throw things in a mix and we'll stick to whatever passes as passable by date X"... -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 17:26:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB651065700 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:26:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from victor@bsdes.net) Received: from equilibrium.bsdes.net (244.Red-217-126-240.staticIP.rima-tde.net [217.126.240.244]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9308B8FC19 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:26:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by equilibrium.bsdes.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 80DCC3983F; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:10:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:10:30 +0100 From: Victor Balada Diaz To: John Kozubik Message-ID: <20120117171030.GP39290@equilibrium.bsdes.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:26:59 -0000 On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 02:28:09PM -0800, John Kozubik wrote: > > Friends, > > I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come out in > March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE and is typical > of a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. > > I also see that undercutting the current release before wide deployment > and maturity is continuing. 7.0 came (barely) after 6.3, which was bad > enough, but not as bad as 8.0 arriving with 7.2, and now 9.0 with 8.2. > > Finally, the culture of "that's fixed in CURRENT" or "we built those > changes into (insert next major release)" continues to get worse. It's > difficult to escape the notion that FreeBSD is becoming an operating > system by, and for, FreeBSD developers. > Hello John, With my sysadmin hat on i can echo your feelings, but i guess that your proposals are more focused on a company environment than a collaborative environment. First i would like to remember the last stage of FreeBSD 4.x for those people (not you) who are arguing in the thread about long "stable" releases. Those of us who used FreeBSD 4.x on the late release cycle will remember a few of this problems: - New hardware didn't work because no ACPI support was in 4.x until 4.11 or 4.12 (can't remember). Even then, it was considered a bad idea to backport it because it was a huge change for a -STABLE branch. - Because SMPng project involved a lot of changes, it was not easy to backport drivers. - SMP performance was horrible. As libc_r was the only option on 4.x you got various performance and stability problems with apps designed for a better threading model. A good example is MySQL performance. At that time started the whole "mysql performance issues of FreeBSD vs linux" that last until today. - Porting some new apps was troublesome because a lot of libraries had missing bits pending the big SMPng changes on 5.x. Mostly related to thread libs. - 5.x was a huge change relating to POLA. Eg: init scripts changed to new rc.d framework (iirc imported or based on NetBSD work). At that time you had two options: - Use rock solid FreeBSD 4.x and be unable to run more or less recent apps and hardware without huge problems. - Use FreeBSD 5.x which was unstable and slow compared to 4.x Because of this problems some people migrated to Linux, a fork of FreeBSD with the idea of an easier SMP model was created, etc. FreeBSD project learnt a good lesson: If you wait too much for great features to came to a reality instead of releasing often, you will not have features or stability. Ie: The stable release is unusable because backporting drivers and libs is harder and you end with unsupported new hardware as time passes, apps are harder to port because missing APIs, etc. And the new "current" release is unusable because there are too many things in testing and breaks in a lot of places. At that time (maybe 6.x? can't remember for sure, maybe someone else will remember better) the FreeBSD project announced a new way of doing releases. Release Timely instead of release based on features. If you don't have a feature ready when it's time for releases, just skip until next one instead of waiting. Now a few years later as sysadmins we find that there are too many releases that don't last too much. We waste a lot of time testing upgrades and once they're in production releases don't last often enough for the effort to be worthwile. Hence, John mail. I agree with John on the problems, but i disagree on solutions and the causes. No solution is going to work if you expect volunteers to do anything for a long time that's boring. You lost interest and stop working on that. What i really think it's the problem: If you try to maintain a few servers without much resources you end replicating half FreeBSD's project release infraestructure: - You find a bug, report, get a patch and apply. After that, you lost forever the option of using freebsd-update. You need to reinstall the system to get freebsd-update again - You want binary updates with custom kernel or patches? -> Your only option is cutting your own releases or forget about freebsd-update. - You want to track packages on various machines? -> create your tinderbox because binary package upgrades is a no-op with standard packages distributed by the project. - You want to apply a security update to a custom kernel? -> no binary option - Do you want to apply just one security update but no other to a standard kernel? -> no option freebsd-update will just allow you all patches or none. - Performance problems? Usually involves recompiling with different compiler or kernel/userland options. Again: no easy binary upgrade path. As you can see, if you want to change something, you end doing half the release process yourself for easy things like patch handling, package upgrades or binary upgrading. And what's worse: You can't easily change from custom-built system to standard system once bugs are fixed and get to mainstream. If you're a small FreeBSD user with 10-300 servers it will hurt a lot to do most of release engenieering yourself to just get a little flexibility. We're half binary, half source. I think that the best thing for improving sysadmin experiencie is to lower the entry of useful tools that allow to easily administer lots of different servers. It's not hard to get a patch from a developer for a small driver update. It's not even that expensive to pay someone for a backport. I've done various myself in the years i've been using FreeBSD. What's really expensive is maintaining the infraestructure needed for just one patch. The difference of a standard RELEASE install vs standard release with a small re(4) patch is that now i suddenly need to build releases, create freebsd-update servers etc. Thinking on how other projects get the same thing done you can look at Debian project. If you need to patch any util, as you have system packages, you just patch a .deb and post it to a custom FTP server. Now all servers could easily update from that package. Once the patches are in mainstream version, you just need to forget about your package and system will use the newer official version without problems. This also gets for free community involvement: Eg debian backports[1] for stable releases. People interested in getting long support cycles for releases can collaborate. Now try to do that with backports for RELEASES on FreeBSD. What we lack, IMO is flexibility for binary updates/upgrades and some way of having system packages. Of course if noone is interested in wasting his time on writing all of this, nothing will get done of this talk, but i just wanted to offer a different solution that shouldn't be that hard to implement or sponsor and could make developers and big companies happy without any of them having to do long-time work. I hope you've been able to understand me because english is not my native language. Have a nice day. Victor. [1]: http://backports-master.debian.org/ -- La prueba más fehaciente de que existe vida inteligente en otros planetas, es que no han intentado contactar con nosotros. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 17:36:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21546106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@my.gd) Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com (mail-wi0-f182.google.com [209.85.212.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34EE8FC16 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:36:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so2569712wib.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.100.200 with SMTP id fa8mr28220891wib.8.1326821804756; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfleuriot-at-hi-media.com ([83.167.62.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fy5sm46243242wib.7.2012.01.17.09.36.43 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:36:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:36:42 +0100 From: Damien Fleuriot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:36:46 -0000 On 1/17/12 4:39 PM, Mark Felder wrote: > Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Plenty of stuff gets > MFC'd. Yeah, I agree -- running -RELEASE is difficult. Hell, it's > frustrating to us that VMWare only supports -RELEASE and it took until > ESX 5 to officially support 8.2! > > More releases / snapshots of -STABLE helps people on physical servers, > but anyone who runs VMs on Xen or VMWare won't get any support for those > versions because they didn't go through the QA process yet. FreeBSD is > increasingly becoming a third world citizen thanks to virtualization > efforts being focused on Linux, so I feel that more frequent releases > won't help as many people as you think. > Running FBSD in a *production* environment means you want something stable and tested. -STABLE does not fulfill the requirements I'm afraid. We've had to downgrade some boxes from 8.2-STABLE to -RELEASE here. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 17:49:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE68A1065677 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:49:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FC88FC14 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:49:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so2801727pbd.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:49:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=3nOn9TdD8aEb5rCXGnYcHstTcLyD2yHDSawnNN/wtJM=; b=hAL3Ibw0j6Fm0YCCFMuUdVd4hW4//Q7KzvKhvxTALaCUYhSBAbLVfNC0TfbNmWL7fS gk4FD0g5dp7WsdXq8My6n9BBQu53ZxOWAnvsujc8QmsmCet/hGK6/A3ttg773uTfJN8T tBWrvcYuMyC1LTI2TjMQZmF74ZWBBtu63AAC0= Received: by 10.68.73.138 with SMTP id l10mr35937763pbv.65.1326822564148; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:49:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:48:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:48:43 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fp8OVUBdAVER-6r1xVcOq474irU Message-ID: To: Mark Felder Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:49:24 -0000 On 17 January 2012 15:39, Mark Felder wrote: > FreeBSD is increasingly becoming a third world citizen thanks to > virtualization efforts being focused on Linux, so I feel that more > frequent releases won't help as many people as you think. I would guess that for folks like VMWare, the choice of their focus is essentially determined by their customers and not by them themselves. So if VMWare choose to focus more on Linux over FreeBSD it is simply indicative that VMWare's customers demand Linux support more that the FreeBSD one... Now, why is there more end-user demand for Linux than FreeBSD? I am guessing that is exactly what John K's original post was trying to address... -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 17:52:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13439106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:52:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F21CB8FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:52:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HHqWjS045466; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:52:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0HHqRxE045463; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:52:27 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Ivan Voras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:52:34 -0000 Ivan, On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Ivan Voras wrote: >> 2) Having two simultaneous production releases draws focus away from >> both of them, and keeps any release from ever truly maturing. > > This isn't how things work. The -CURRENT always has (and probably always had > and always will have) the focus of developers. The "releases" are for many > people simply a periodical annoyance due to freezes. In no way will reducing > the number of "production releases" change this. As a volunteer effort, > backports to stable branches only happen when 1) it's in the interest of the > developer, e.g. "I've found a bug on my systems, want to get it fixed in > -STABLE" and 2) when the developer is budged by outside forces (users > complaining, other developers requesting it) and 3) they think it's worth > doing and have time to do it spontaneously. These are in order of likelihood > to happen. I could not have illustrated my point better, RE: FreeBSD becoming an OS by, and for, FreeBSD developers. I wish I could find the quote - it was from one of the FreeBSD core team many years ago, and it was something along the lines of "we are holding a piece in one of the highest stakes games in the modern world". Now juxtapose that with "The "releases" are for many people simply a periodical annoyance". >> going to >> run RELEASE software ONLY > >> 4) New code and fixes that people NEED TODAY just sits on the shelf for >> 8 or 10 or (nowadays) 13 months while end users wait for new minor >> releases. > > ... except if you expect regular releases :) > > I've concluded very early that because of what I've said above, the only way > to run FreeBSD effectively is to track -STABLE. The developers MFC-ing stuff > usually try hard not to break things so -STABLE has become a sort of "running > RELEASE" branch. Since -STABLE is so ... stable ..., there is less and less > incentive to make proper releases (though I think nobody would mind it > happening). Impossible. I'm not a FreeBSD guy, I'm a business owner. Like most businesses, we are running official, delivered, release software only. Controller firmware ? Release only. Motherboard BIOS ? Release only. Drivers ? Release only. Just because I *happen* to also have some techincal expertise with FreeBSD, and some geeky tendencies does not mean we're making any exceptions. > The next question is: what do releases from a -STABLE branch bring in that > simply tracking the original -STABLE tree doesn't? Lately, not very much. > Since there is a huge number of users and developers tracking -STABLE, the > testing done specifically for a X.Y, Y>0 RELEASE is not very extensive, so > you just as well could have tracked -STABLE. > > I'm sure you know how easy it is to upgrade a STABLE-running system, and > there are simple ways in which that can be made to scale to thousands of > machines. Breakage is of course a risk, but not significantly greater than > for any other upgrading. If we lose an rsync.net storage array, we'll get sued in 50 countries. My family and I will be *fucked*, not to mention the thousands and thousands of people, possibly ruined, around the globe. Now let's explain to one of those folks (or a judge and jury) (or my wife and kids) how the STABLE track works. Presumably they will refer us directly to the FreeBSD projects home page, where they had found: "This is still a development branch, however, and this means that at any given time, the sources for FreeBSD-STABLE may or may not be suitable for any particular purpose. It is simply another engineering development track, NOT A RESOURCE FOR END-USERS." >> of 2012, we should be on 6.12 (or so) and just breaking ground on 7.0. >> Instead, each release gets perhaps two years of focused development >> before every new fix is applied only to the upcoming release, and any >> kind of support or enthusiasm from the community just disappears. > > If you're saying that -STABLE branches don't get fixes fast enough, I'd > disagree. I'm not saying that. I'm not a FreeBSD developer and I have little use for either CURRENT or STABLE. I'm saying that I need a major release to have an *effective* lifetime longer than two years. Nobody runs the x.0, and these days the next major release comes in concurrent with x.2 ... so that's x.1 and x.2 you get to use in a real world, enterprise setting, before you have to either: a) scrap that investment and start a new round of investment in the new release (not trivial for a global firm) b) begin limping along as a second class citizen, watching everything - not just new features, but necessary bug fixes, go into the next major. --john From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 17:56:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE6C81065672 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:56:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71568FC18 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:56:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HHuck5045522; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:56:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0HHuXT8045519; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:56:33 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Tom Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:56:39 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Tom Evans wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: >> I've concluded very early that because of what I've said above, the only way >> to run FreeBSD effectively is to track -STABLE. The developers MFC-ing stuff >> usually try hard not to break things so -STABLE has become a sort of >> "running RELEASE" branch. Since -STABLE is so ... stable ..., there is less >> and less incentive to make proper releases (though I think nobody would mind >> it happening). >> >> The next question is: what do releases from a -STABLE branch bring in that >> simply tracking the original -STABLE tree doesn't? Lately, not very much. > > Sorry to just pick out bits of your email Ivan? > > Ability to use freebsd-update. It would be better to have more > frequent releases. As a prime example, ZFS became much more stable > about 3 months after 8.2 was released. If you were waiting for an 8.x > release that supported that improved version of ZFS, you are still > waiting. Ding! It's amazing how many people are in the exact same boats - waiting for 8.3, getting locked out of new motherboards because em(4) can't be "backported" to even the production release... > You say that snapshots of STABLE are stable and effectively a running > release branch, so why can't more releases be made? > > Is the release process too complex for minor revisions, could that be > improved to make it easier to have more releases, eg by not bundling > ports packages? Thanks, Tom. I'm calling for some changes that, culturally, might be impossible, but a lot of pain would be avoided if more regular minor releases (3 per year) were made. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:08:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D60106564A; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:08:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E036C8FC14; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:08:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HI8X6m045632; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:08:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0HI8SCr045629; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:08:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:08:28 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Ivan Voras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Tom Evans , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:08:35 -0000 Hi Ivan, Thanks for the insights below ... see my comments inline: On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Ivan Voras wrote: >> Ability to use freebsd-update. It would be better to have more >> frequent releases. As a prime example, ZFS became much more stable >> about 3 months after 8.2 was released. If you were waiting for an 8.x >> release that supported that improved version of ZFS, you are still >> waiting. > > You know, that's an excellent point! And maybe an excellent idea: to > provide occasional, time-based STABLE snapshots for freebsd-update. > >> You say that snapshots of STABLE are stable and effectively a running >> release branch, so why can't more releases be made? > > Nobody volunteered :( Fair enough. Is it the case that if funds or manpower were made available, more releases would be workable ? Or are there some deeper cultural leanings toward having fewer minor releases ? >> Is the release process too complex for minor revisions, could that be >> improved to make it easier to have more releases, eg by not bundling >> ports packages? > > Almost certainly yes. The current release process involves src, ports > and docs teams. Would you and other RELEASE users be happy with simple > periodic snapshots off the STABLE branches, not much different from > tracking STABLE? The only benefit I see would be a light-weight > opportunity for testing which would probably end up being implemented > by moving to date-based tags (e.g. if a critical bug is found and the > fix MFC-ed, the "current" tag would be advanced to "$today")? Well, as I tried to explain just previously in the thread, these need to be real, bona fide releases. The notion of putting a few extra ones out without updating the ports tree and docs is tempting, but I think it's the wrong answer. Things should be kept simple and straightforward, and all of the minor releases should be *real* releases. Is three per year an insane schedule ? Remember, I am simultaneously advocating that FreeBSD stop publishing two production releases simultaneously, which is almost oxymoronic, so presumably there are resources that get freed up there. >> Can it really be that the best advice for users is to run their own >> build infrastructure and make their own releases? > > Maybe. I'm trying to suggest that it looks like (I may be wrong, of > course) that the effort required to upgrade from one RELEASE to the > other is comparable to the effort of just having a -STABLE build > machine somewhere and doing "make installkernel, make installworld, > mergemaster -FU" over NFS on a 1000 machines. If you are serious about > testing, you would need to test the RELEASEs also. All very interesting - and honestly, things I will personally consider for my home filers, pfsense boxes, etc. But no, none of my firms are going into the OS business - even for ourselves. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:13:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B1A106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11678FC15 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:13:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HICs5n045687; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0HICn62045684; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:12:49 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Mark Felder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:13:22 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Mark Felder wrote: > Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Plenty of stuff gets MFC'd. > Yeah, I agree -- running -RELEASE is difficult. Hell, it's frustrating to us > that VMWare only supports -RELEASE and it took until ESX 5 to officially > support 8.2! > > More releases / snapshots of -STABLE helps people on physical servers, but > anyone who runs VMs on Xen or VMWare won't get any support for those versions > because they didn't go through the QA process yet. FreeBSD is increasingly > becoming a third world citizen thanks to virtualization efforts being focused > on Linux, so I feel that more frequent releases won't help as many people as > you think. Again, I'm not suggesting more snapshots - I am suggesting more real, bona fide releases. This will help people. The fact that vmware only works with release software is consistent with my own assertions. They (we) don't care what fancy toolchain and build environments you have - we need things that we can defend to customers, stockholders, judges, juries, etc. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:35:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6D31065677 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:35:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457708FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:35:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0HIZb9e096495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F15BFB8.8020608@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:36:40 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kozubik References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Steven Hartland Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:35:40 -0000 On 1/16/12 10:20 PM, John Kozubik wrote: > > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Steven Hartland wrote: > >>> I was disappointed to see that 8.3-RELEASE is now slated to come >>> out in March of 2012. This will be ~13 months since 8.2-RELEASE >>> and is typical of a trend towards longer gaps between minor releases. >> >> ... >> >> I must say as a small company that runs ~200 machines on FreeBSD >> I do see where John is coming from, as it is very time consuming to >> keep >> things up to date and new is not always better e.g. we still have >> boxes >> stuck on 6.x as issues introduced in the Linux compat after that >> caused >> problems. >> >> That said I'm in two minds as the features that have been brought >> in by >> the more rapid dev cycle like ZFS have been great. > > > The features are great - nobody doesn't want the features! Like I > said in the original post, as wonderful as ZFS on FreeBSD is (and we > are deploying it this year) it is only now (well, in March) with 8.3 > that I feel it is finally safe and stable enough to bet the farm > on. I'm not the only one that feels this way. > > If that's the case, then, ZFS could have been developed just as it > has, in a development branch, and not been used as justification for > (mutiple) major releases and all of their disruption. but it would not have gotten the testing it did. > > As I said in the original post - we should be on 6.12 right now, and > bringing out 7.0, with ZFS v28. that was my feeling when we went to this "bring out a new major release every 3 weeks" scheme. We must however look at why Major and Minor releases are different. A major release means that kernel ABIs (inside the system) have changed. We needed to change the ABIs between 4 and 5 for sure (threaded kernel) and between 6 and 7 for sure, (second round of threading work). 7 and 8 also really required a change. I'm not sure about 5-6 and 8-9. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:36:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA340106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:36:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0E88FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:36:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0HIareU096503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F15C004.80100@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:37:56 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atom Smasher References: <4F14E0A1.4080306@rawbw.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:36:55 -0000 On 1/16/12 10:29 PM, Atom Smasher wrote: > > so i guess that means that i'm tougher than a typical laptop user... > and instead of making things easier, freeBSD is getting harder. > > thing is, when people don't "play" with freeBSD on laptops and > desktops, then they grow up, get real jobs, and don't know much > about it. > > if this keeps up, i'll cross a line where i just get more > comfortable with linux and migrate my freeBSD servers to it. > > this is one of the areas where linux is doing well... people are > "playing" with it, but in the process they're getting used to it and > comfortable with it. from that background, they can install a linux > based server without breaking a sweat. linux's ease of use and > hardware support are seeding the next generation of FLOSS and *nix > users... and most of them have never installed/used freeBSD. have a play with PCBSD some time From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:44:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D881065673 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:44:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E2A8FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:44:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0HIiFJ9096537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F15C1BE.1060104@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:45:18 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kozubik References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tom Evans , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:44:17 -0000 On 1/17/12 10:08 AM, John Kozubik wrote: > > Hi Ivan, > > [...] > > Fair enough. Is it the case that if funds or manpower were made > available, more releases would be workable ? Or are there some > deeper cultural leanings toward having fewer minor releases ? sure if you or someone is willing to cut releases, you can do so and I'm sure re@, given the resources (not just promised them) could do things differently. re would probably love to have people employed by someone to do the job :-) > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:55:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD14106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:55:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332258FC17 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:55:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0HItCLo096577 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:55:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:56:15 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Felder References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:55:36 -0000 On 1/17/12 7:39 AM, Mark Felder wrote: > Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Plenty of stuff gets > MFC'd. Yeah, I agree -- running -RELEASE is difficult. Hell, it's > frustrating to us that VMWare only supports -RELEASE and it took > until ESX 5 to officially support 8.2! > > More releases / snapshots of -STABLE helps people on physical > servers, but anyone who runs VMs on Xen or VMWare won't get any > support for those versions because they didn't go through the QA > process yet. FreeBSD is increasingly becoming a third world citizen > thanks to virtualization efforts being focused on Linux, so I feel > that more frequent releases won't help as many people as you think. I'm going to go both ways on this one. Where I used to work (Devin Teske is now there) we used to use the 'stable' branch and rolll our own releases. the criticality of those systems was hard to over-emphasize. In 2005 we worked out we processed 1.5 trillion dollars of transactions on those systems. The other side of the coin is that we had the resources to have someone (me) tracking the branch. I only spun a release when I thought it was a good time to do so, but I always had a year or so advance warning of when a new release was likely to be needed so I could select a good moment from over a wide range. Also ran a layer on the top of the sources where I could add cherry-picked back-ports and changes as part of our release. If it came to that maybe all the people who are currently saying they need better support of the 8.x branch could get together and together, support someone to do that job for them..would 1/5th of a person be too expensive for them? if not, what is a reasonable cost? Is it worth 1/20 th of a person? Julian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:58:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2EA106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hugo@barafranca.com) Received: from mail.barafranca.com (mail.barafranca.com [67.213.67.47]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661618FC19 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [172.16.100.24]) by mail.barafranca.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C32B30; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at barafranca.com Received: from mail.barafranca.com ([172.16.100.24]) by localhost (mail.barafranca.com [172.16.100.24]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JvdHhQir8DjJ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:57:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.1] (a89-152-168-54.cpe.netcabo.pt [89.152.168.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.barafranca.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C7236B1E; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:57:27 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:57:19 +0000 From: Hugo Silva User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101208 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tom Evans , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:07 -0000 On 01/17/12 12:42, Ivan Voras wrote: > On 17 January 2012 13:02, Tom Evans wrote: > Almost certainly yes. The current release process involves src, ports > and docs teams. Would you and other RELEASE users be happy with simple > periodic snapshots off the STABLE branches, not much different from > tracking STABLE? The only benefit I see would be a light-weight > opportunity for testing which would probably end up being implemented > by moving to date-based tags (e.g. if a critical bug is found and the > fix MFC-ed, the "current" tag would be advanced to "$today")? If (a cluster of) new features have made it to stable in the mean time and have been tested and generally recognized as being in working condition, my opinion is that a release should be up for consideration: For starters, it's so much easier from a server management point of view.. easier to memorize and compare 8.5-RELEASE vs 8.6-RELEASE ("now with blah-ZFS features and cpuset added to rc.d, bind updated to blah, openssh updated to version bleh, insert other usual suspects here") than it is to track stable. I don't remember what was added to -STABLE 3 months ago. It doesn't appear to be as much of a good starting point ("good snapshot"), compared to a release either. I like to know where I'm standing when setting up a new system, and a release is a convenient starting point. Also, one can always check what was added to a release on freebsd.org, while for -stable some digging has to be performed. For production servers, I'd rather run most servers with known good release branches. Sure, there were times when I needed something from the stable branch and decided to use it, but when the next release comes out then it's time to revert back to the release branch. Come to think about it, those days are pretty much gone since 4.x (incidentally, many of us who've stuck with FreeBSD for this long think of 4.x as an epic series). Running different -stable snapshots from different times results in systems running different versions of the operating system, in my opinion this is bound to bring problems (more stuff can go wrong). It's so much easier to have a look at ganglia or cacti or clusterit or anything similar and contrast the OS version and architecture. Running -stable, not so much. Is it stable from 2 days ago or a year? And what has changed since then? Furthermore, releases get way more attention in freebsd's own webpage, not to mention the cascading effect that has. You don't see a lot of articles about new blah features on "9-stable snapshot dated Jan 17 2012", but there are many about 9.0-RELEASE being out in the street. This also brings more visibility to the project. Maybe I'm horribly mistaken about the releasographics of production FreeBSD users, but I think most of us tend to run -release for the reasons mentioned above, and perhaps some more that I'm neglecting right now. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 18:58:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58715106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B15F8FC14 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0HIwfgs096595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:59:44 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Damien Fleuriot References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> In-Reply-To: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:58:43 -0000 On 1/17/12 9:36 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: > > On 1/17/12 4:39 PM, Mark Felder wrote: >> Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Plenty of stuff gets >> MFC'd. Yeah, I agree -- running -RELEASE is difficult. Hell, it's >> frustrating to us that VMWare only supports -RELEASE and it took until >> ESX 5 to officially support 8.2! >> >> More releases / snapshots of -STABLE helps people on physical servers, >> but anyone who runs VMs on Xen or VMWare won't get any support for those >> versions because they didn't go through the QA process yet. FreeBSD is >> increasingly becoming a third world citizen thanks to virtualization >> efforts being focused on Linux, so I feel that more frequent releases >> won't help as many people as you think. >> > Running FBSD in a *production* environment means you want something > stable and tested. > > -STABLE does not fulfill the requirements I'm afraid. > > We've had to downgrade some boxes from 8.2-STABLE to -RELEASE here. then you went the wrong way and your process is flawed. having run -stable on production systems, the way to do it is: * follow -stable.. * pick a time that IN RETROSPECT (from 1 month later) looks as though it was good. * take a snapshot from that time and test it. * if it has problems MOVE FORWARD (not back) to the next candidate snapshot time. * repeat until you have one that works for you > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 19:55:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80AC1065678 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:55:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1363d33761=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244D08FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:55:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:54:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=6.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST shortcircuit=ham autolearn=disabled version=3.2.5 Received: from r2d2 ([188.220.16.49]) by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) (MDaemon PRO v10.0.4) with ESMTP id md50017598061.msg; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:54:46 +0000 X-MDRemoteIP: 188.220.16.49 X-Return-Path: prvs=1363d33761=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk Message-ID: <93F94D7970EC47D88A2DF9C7F726BF75@multiplay.co.uk> From: "Steven Hartland" To: "John Kozubik" , "Tom Evans" References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:54:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:55:37 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Kozubik" > It's amazing how many people are in the exact same boats - waiting for > 8.3, getting locked out of new motherboards because em(4) can't be > "backported" to even the production release... This is not true, only last week did we take the version of e1000 from HEAD into our 8.2-RELEASE tree as a patch. It wasnt totally trivial but it also wasnt difficult either. But it would still be preferable for many not to have to do this I assume? This import brings the number of number release patches we manually apply to our machines above 8.2-RELEASE to 18 which includes:- updated areca driver, boot time fixes (disable memtest), devfs startup fix ixgbe & e100 drivers, libz assembly crash fix, mps driver import, rc.subr fix for scripts, increased max swap size, tcp reassembly fix, udp6 fix for java, cam timeout fixes, zfs overflow fix, zfs slice boot delay, camcontrol security options for ssds and jail uref panic fix. I'm sure there are more that others would include but these changes are important enough to our environment to prompt their inclusion in what is effectively our own stream of 8.2-RELEASE. Now I know the factastic work commiters do in bring us FreeBSD so I can't bring myself to critisise in anyway the work they do. But its defintiely interesting to see others are in the same boat as us looking for something thats a bit more predicable than the current large change releases. I wonder if there is something that could be created to make maintaining micro branches easier. I know mfsbsd has made our lives so much simpler since we discovered it allowing us to take a standard source build on one machine and roll an install cd customised to our requirements in minutes. What other undiscovered gems are our out there? Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 20:01:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7256106566B; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:01:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) Received: from acme.spoerlein.net (acme.spoerlein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:131:23c2::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B22F8FC15; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:01:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (acme.spoerlein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:131:23c2::1]) by acme.spoerlein.net (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0HK17Se098679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:01:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=spoerlein.net; s=dkim200908; t=1326830467; bh=ZYAVZlL96LegRLAyfNARg2IBNKsEhL/sSjOrYnBboNY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:In-Reply-To; b=dWsQDTqEqrXJoXjdA5WjNoGsQZtW1K1MRJOahAt22qadrCxHrAxZN80r6B1uV0tOA 53XjSqX8XhbFgYyLZ9PN2+EH/nZnpBFBOCswIvgWJDSelNF4R3YYVDLYoiAZucOrdv 21aQ1jEFDK3zuyEdefprXHEzbWCU0Fcmj3jpYOR8= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:01:07 +0100 From: Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Message-ID: <20120117200106.GB3489@acme.spoerlein.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , FreeBSD current mailing list , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <511C0E5F-DBA1-4E41-B8CF-6DEEE35E14D6@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <511C0E5F-DBA1-4E41-B8CF-6DEEE35E14D6@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD current mailing list Subject: Re: Build Option Survey results X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:01:08 -0000 On Thu, 2012-01-12 at 07:45:34 +0000, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > Hey, > > after two years I had the opportunity to run the build option survey, > initially done by phk, again. The number of options seems to have grown > quite a bit it felt. I have not even looked at the results yet but here > they are fresh off the machine: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~bz/build_option_survey_20120106/ > > Special thanks go to np, sbruno and bhaga for bringing worm back to life. Cool. Is the idea to kill options that have zero effect on anything? What about options that are broken? Is it worth carrying around tons of conditionals if they don't even work? Aren't we supposed to have an army of embedded people that use all of that stuff? Or is nanobsd circumventing the WITHOUT_FOO logic? Cheers, Uli From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 20:06:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE3D106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:06:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hselasky@c2i.net) Received: from swip.net (mailfe08.c2i.net [212.247.154.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CC88FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:06:24 +0000 (UTC) X-T2-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, BAYES_60 Received: from [188.126.198.129] (account mc467741@c2i.net HELO laptop002.hselasky.homeunix.org) by mailfe08.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with ESMTPA id 229881139; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:06:22 +0100 From: Hans Petter Selasky To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:04:10 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-STABLE; KDE/4.4.5; amd64; ; ) References: <93F94D7970EC47D88A2DF9C7F726BF75@multiplay.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <93F94D7970EC47D88A2DF9C7F726BF75@multiplay.co.uk> X-Face: 'mmZ:T{)),Oru^0c+/}w'`gU1$ubmG?lp!=R4Wy\ELYo2)@'UZ24N@d2+AyewRX}mAm; Yp |U[@, _z/([?1bCfM{_"B<.J>mICJCHAzzGHI{y7{%JVz%R~yJHIji`y>Y}k1C4TfysrsUI -%GU9V5]iUZF&nRn9mJ'?&>O MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201201172104.10435.hselasky@c2i.net> Cc: Tom Evans , Steven Hartland , Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:06:25 -0000 On Tuesday 17 January 2012 20:54:51 Steven Hartland wrote: > boot time fixes (disable memtest), Hi, Another noticeable part is that ufsread.c in boot2 uses very small block sizes to read the file system data. If that could be fixed boot times would drop too ! --HPS From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 20:29:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF971065670 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:29:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 55DA98FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:29:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 38317 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 20:29:17 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (34% of Full) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:30:20 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:29:18 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Chris Rees wrote: > > what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? > > > > You're not comparing like with like. > > Linux is not an OS; FreeBSD is. > > Are you talking about Linux? Debian? Red Hat? ================ linux is, in fact, an operating system. debian, red hat, ubuntu, gentoo, etc are distributions of that OS. -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "Facts change from time to time." -- Donald Rumsfeld From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 20:32:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A92106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:32:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@feld.me) Received: from mwi1.coffeenet.org (unknown [IPv6:2607:f4e0:100:300::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E768FC14 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:32:54 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=feld.me; s=blargle; h=In-Reply-To:Message-Id:From:Mime-Version:Date:References:Subject:To:Content-Type; bh=LP84usz3bIZ9nwWzMhbE5R5Wfmld/edLH2NLrtOo0Vs=; b=m4yGAw0XHBg8TB5i/vBQcqfH0KyonlCkGha1O5DY/ENJfLLlCK8/mUrCPjkqOGvcJMWdL1XYBT78tPOfeccyf4rYurSfc1uoh34h2zIG5JmcSMqsopaKMydsgc+u6w0i; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mwi1.coffeenet.org) by mwi1.coffeenet.org with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1RnFi9-000OH2-H0 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:32:54 -0600 Received: from feld@feld.me by mwi1.coffeenet.org (Archiveopteryx 3.1.4) with esmtpsa id 1326832367-88972-88971/5/22; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:32:47 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:32:47 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Felder Message-Id: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.61 (FreeBSD) X-SA-Score: -1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:32:55 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:30:20 -0600, Atom Smasher wrote: > linux is, in fact, an operating system. > debian, red hat, ubuntu, gentoo, etc are distributions of that OS. It's not really worth getting into this argument, but I'll reiterate that no, it's not an OS -- it's a kernel. Without the userland utilities the distros provide it's not very usable. Linus and co don't maintain the shell or the rc subsystem or anything like that. They only work on the kernel and in-tree drivers. We need to be comparing FreeBSD to a full blown distro. Cheers From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 20:41:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48887106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:41:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nonesuch@longcount.org) Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com (mail-wi0-f182.google.com [209.85.212.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1268FC1A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:41:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so2781889wib.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.104.4 with SMTP id ga4mr17800552wib.17.1326831094618; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.28.84 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:11:34 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [209.66.78.50] In-Reply-To: <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:11:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mark Saad To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:41:29 -0000 Here are My 2 Cents , 1. Support each release longer, or develop a better way to MFS ( Merge from Stable ) bug fixes, and driver updates to RELEASE. It always seams that there are a number of things in X-STABLE I would love to have in X.3-RELEASE and X.4-RELEASE, and I do not want all of X-STABLE just some new drivers and fixes . 2. Spell out the entire RELEASE road map at the beginning of the release. So for 9.0-RELEASE set tentative dates for 9.1, 9.2, 9.x etc . -- mark saad | nonesuch@longcount.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 20:50:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0D8106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:50:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@feld.me) Received: from mwi1.coffeenet.org (unknown [IPv6:2607:f4e0:100:300::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAAC08FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:50:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=feld.me; s=blargle; h=In-Reply-To:Message-Id:From:Mime-Version:Date:References:Subject:To:Content-Type; bh=nciCrABLJNyndWX/f2y9DIGoaGsoi/igXEu2v104CqA=; b=AUlH9nSC8q7uYDmVRRAqzUIFDsoiDD9RkRFnByjjs41ID4vy+IGbX1EGf8K3f51Qi4zlkQHStSamNxIcw1jFQI7MzzvRPUWXUPOBlXBr0lf336s5PYVAhqr6l27fcTMq; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mwi1.coffeenet.org) by mwi1.coffeenet.org with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1RnFyw-0008bH-GO for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:50:18 -0600 Received: from feld@feld.me by mwi1.coffeenet.org (Archiveopteryx 3.1.4) with esmtpsa id 1326833408-88972-88971/5/23; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:50:08 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:50:08 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Felder Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.61 (FreeBSD) X-SA-Score: -1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:50:19 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:59:44 -0600, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 1/17/12 9:36 AM, Damien Fleuriot wrote: > > having run -stable on production systems, the way to do it is: > > * follow -stable.. > * pick a time that IN RETROSPECT (from 1 month later) looks as though it > was good. > * take a snapshot from that time and test it. > * if it has problems MOVE FORWARD (not back) to the next candidate > snapshot time. > * repeat until you have one that works for you > This is also the way I've had it explained to me. Note, I'm currently not running anything -STABLE in production right now simply because I don't have that need. I did for a while last year, but not now. I'm deploying two ZFS SANs based on 9 early February. It might be on -RELEASE with manual backports of the gmultipath rewrite (required) and also I am considering the fixes for CDROM access (CAM stuff). I've seen several other things hit -STABLE right after the freeze ended early January which surprise me that they weren't included in -RELEASE and we didn't have another RC. I definitely see the frustration being expressed here, but I personally am comfortable running -STABLE. Many people are not and it is unfortunate that they will be left waiting until 9.1-RELEASE (probably late summer?). I hope a compromise will be found. I'm clearly in the minority that is OK with the current situation. To be fair, it could be worse -- OpenBSD secretly wants you to run snapshots and CURRENT as the RELEASEs are mostly unmaintained outside of the most extreme security concerns. Even the packages are kept at the exact version of the time of release. Well to be honest, Theo doesn't want me running OpenBSD at all. :-) -Previously Flamed User From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 21:10:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330CE1065670 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:10:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7DD8FC16 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:10:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so8767038iag.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:10:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=1wz1HTwq9E73OiHH6XvG9FjuDRp7ocrKbHVoFtoHqHI=; b=tatVGfdn0TVdys7mGsnKEM6e9opn7EONFUm1Tb4tJVU+Oi1QLyHoxTkeVrTIpF/mCD lwgECVAim5/w30/u4NUZtMUQE6ZrUKmEYSQLgeGMbCJ2BQt0K7+NpwznmGP/WsCkSF0h 9C778KoqXh4wFa4ECV8kxrhcVJxz+KTW+M5yI= Received: by 10.42.142.129 with SMTP id s1mr15196025icu.42.1326834658349; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:10:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: utisoft@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.207.7 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:10:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> From: Chris Rees Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:10:26 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _gE-xj3ezfZ1ZwuoaC9bw0FgONo Message-ID: To: Atom Smasher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:10:59 -0000 On 17 January 2012 20:30, Atom Smasher wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Chris Rees wrote: > >> > what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? >> > >> >> You're not comparing like with like. >> >> Linux is not an OS; FreeBSD is. >> >> Are you talking about Linux? Debian? Red Hat? > > ================ > > linux is, in fact, an operating system. > > debian, red hat, ubuntu, gentoo, etc are distributions of that OS. No. Linux is, in fact, not an operating system. It is a kernel. You can't compare a *project* with a kernel. You could compare a *distribution* with a project, hence my email. Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 21:18:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4CB106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:18:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3DE8FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:18:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.30.101.53] ([209.117.142.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HL9kBw006170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:09:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:09:40 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E283165-BD56-4DBF-9799-757C475815FB@bsdimp.com> References: To: John Kozubik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (harmony.bsdimp.com [10.0.0.6]); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:09:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mark Felder Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:18:47 -0000 On Jan 17, 2012, at 11:12 AM, John Kozubik wrote: > Again, I'm not suggesting more snapshots - I am suggesting more real, = bona fide releases. This will help people. I tend to agree with you. Our release engineering process isn't serving = the needs of users as much as it once did. When Walnut Creek was = running release engineering, we had releases often because they wanted = to make money from their subscriptions. This produced reasonably spaced = minor releases and except for 4-5, decently spaced major releases. Even = after the torch passed from walnut creek to others, there was still = either residual pressures to make the releases happen, or inherited = mindset that keep on the same pace. Today we have lost our way. We have no major vendor pushing the process = along to make it happen faster. We have no reason to get things done = faster or differently than the volunteers are doing it. So we're = languishing. 9.0 took forever to get out, and we didn't do stop-gap 8.x = releases. Our port collection has also gotten bigger since those = by-gone days so doing a release of the whole ports tree is taking longer = to QA, so pressure to do it more often meets up with resource = constraints. Our binary update tools lag considerably compared to = Linux, and there's a big reluctance to whole-heartedly embrace PBI as a = possible solution. Maybe pkgng will help there. Maybe the various = attempts to get ABI stability to allow for easier decoupling of FreeBSD = base and FreeBSD ports releases. But we have a real problem here. One I don't have easy answers for how = to solve. One that likely has many other root-causes than the few I've = cherry picked for this reply. The underlying balances that allowed the = early project to succeed have shifted, but we've not shifted with them. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 21:25:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8988B1065670 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:25:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4571C8FC12 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:25:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa06 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa06.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0HKRYxl022821; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:25:46 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa06.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12dfr80b9w-28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:25:46 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:25:00 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Bjoern A. Zeeb'" , "'FreeBSD current mailing list'" References: <511C0E5F-DBA1-4E41-B8CF-6DEEE35E14D6@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <511C0E5F-DBA1-4E41-B8CF-6DEEE35E14D6@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:25:25 -0800 Message-ID: <039901ccd55e$8782a530$9687ef90$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJ48tbsG8Lce67YqxmJuLreEJNb05S41cHQ Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_06:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Build Option Survey results X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:25:47 -0000 Thanks Bjoern! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Bjoern A. Zeeb > Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:46 PM > To: FreeBSD current mailing list > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Build Option Survey results > > Hey, > > after two years I had the opportunity to run the build option survey, initially done > by phk, again. The number of options seems to have grown quite a bit it felt. I > have not even looked at the results yet but here they are fresh off the machine: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~bz/build_option_survey_20120106/ > With respect to the results of the build-survey linked-to above... I submitted 4x PR's to restore the failed WITHOUT_OPENSSL build option: "misc/164206: [PATCH] buildworld WITHOUT_OPENSSL stops at lib/libarchive" http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=164206 "misc/164208: [PATCH] buildworld WITHOUT_OPENSSL stops at lib/libbsnmp/libbsnmp" http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=164208 "misc/164209: [PATCH] buildworld WITHOUT_OPENSSL stops at usr.sbin/wpa/hostapd" http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=164209 "misc/164210: [PATCH] buildworld WITHOUT_OPENSSL stops at usr.sbin/wpa/wpa_supplicant" http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=164210 -- Devin > Special thanks go to np, sbruno and bhaga for bringing worm back to life. > > /bz > > PS: the last run from 2010 can still be found here: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~bz/build_option_survey_20100104/ > > -- > Bjoern A. Zeeb You have to have visions! > It does not matter how good you are. It matters what good you do! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 21:46:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D41106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:46:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.17]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BACC8FC1B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:46:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id NlLS1i0060FhH24AAlmfLJ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:46:39 +0000 Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org ([24.8.232.202]) by omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Nlme1i00g4NgCEG8Ulmf2R; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:46:39 +0000 Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HLkb61005214; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:46:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: Julian Elischer In-Reply-To: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:46:37 -0700 Message-Id: <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.0 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:46:40 -0000 On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 10:56 -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > If it came to that maybe all the people who are currently saying they > need better > support of the 8.x branch could get together and together, support > someone > to do that job for them..would 1/5th of a person be too expensive > for > them? > > if not, what is a reasonable cost? Is it worth 1/20 th of a person? > > > Julian > I've got to say, this strikes me as the most interesting idea floated so far in this conversation. I've heard of many instances of sponsored projects; they almost always involve major new features or support for new hardware or technologies; paying someone for a specific small focused fix is also common. A sponsored branch is... well... just an interesting concept to me. Unlike most developers, I have little interest in creating new code from scratch to implement the fad of the week. (There's that whole other opensource OS if fad of the week technology is your thing.) I live to find and fix bugs. Sometimes that means days of frustration to generate a one-line patch. Sometimes you find the problem in minutes but the fix means a painful redesign that touches 342 files and has the potential to ruin everyone's day when you get it wrong. But, for me at least, it's much more challenging and thus more rewarding when you get it right. Despite being a developer myself, I understand completely where John is coming from in opening this conversation, and I'm firmly in the "me too" camp because I'm also an end user of FreeBSD. I work at a company that creates embedded systems products with FreeBSD as our OS. In July we started the process of converting our products from 6.2 to 8.2. Out of sheer emergency necessity we shipped a product using 8.2 in October -- 6.2 was panicking and the customer was screaming, we had no choice; we've had to do several fix releases since then. It's only within the past couple weeks that I think we're finally ready to deploy 8.2 for all new products. More testing is needed before updating existing products in the field. It takes a long time for a business to vet a major release of an OS and deploy it. It costs a lot. Now, before we're even really completely up and running on 8.2 at work, 9.0 hits the street, and developers have moved on to working in the 10.0 world. What are the chances that any of the patches I've submitted for bugs we fixed in 8.x are ever going to get commited now that 8 is well on its way to becoming ancient history in developers' minds? So back to where I started this rambling... that concept of a sponsored branch, or maybe something along the lines of a long-lived stable branch supported by a co-op of interested users. Some co-op members may be able to provide developers or other engineering-related resources, some may just pay cash to help acquire those resources for various short-term or targeted needs along the way. I think it could work, and I think businesses that need such stability might find it easier to contribute something to a co-op than the current situation that requires a company such as ours to become, in effect, our own little "FreeBSD Project Lite" (if you think FreeBSD lacks manpower to do release engineering, imagine how hard it is for a small or medium sized business). -- Ian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 21:49:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5181106566B for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:49:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@exonetric.com) Received: from relay0.exonetric.net (relay0.exonetric.net [82.138.248.161]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F4C8FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:49:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.24] (unknown [78.86.207.85]) by relay0.exonetric.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F2C5722F; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:27:25 +0000 (GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mark Blackman In-Reply-To: <9E283165-BD56-4DBF-9799-757C475815FB@bsdimp.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:27:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <81A5F99A-CA8B-4BA9-936C-51F5421460AC@exonetric.com> References: <9E283165-BD56-4DBF-9799-757C475815FB@bsdimp.com> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mark Felder Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:49:56 -0000 On 17 Jan 2012, at 21:09, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > On Jan 17, 2012, at 11:12 AM, John Kozubik wrote: >> Again, I'm not suggesting more snapshots - I am suggesting more real, = bona fide releases. This will help people. >=20 > I tend to agree with you. Our release engineering process isn't = serving the needs of users as much as it once did. When Walnut Creek = was running release engineering, we had releases often because they = wanted to make money from their subscriptions. This produced reasonably = spaced minor releases and except for 4-5, decently spaced major = releases. Even after the torch passed from walnut creek to others, = there was still either residual pressures to make the releases happen, = or inherited mindset that keep on the same pace. >=20 > Today we have lost our way. We have no major vendor pushing the = process along to make it happen faster.=20 What exactly did the major vendor to push things along? Keep nagging? I'd have thought PC-BSD and iXsystems are the natural people to to take = over that role in any case. The FreeBSD foundation seems less interested in the "for = end-users" angle as well. - Mark= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:25:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EAF106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:25:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mattjeet@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B9F8FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:25:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghy10 with SMTP id 10so495236ghy.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:25:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LP7cJC8rpzdJA0SvAqktLtlVF7xhVcUO/SoOxcN+bjc=; b=xb71bc3MHmbCgkYuqL4/rcZVFjlzBY80XGnVacsgDkdOkyDZHBVNFqynPrbRWWI+y1 BgwffprdD32sarUyNa9+VrcDhAtN+6BTMN2MZSHsClvRv3w3K89VEvFGq4/bBt2J7qHp Q/Fo3cwM0Zqt2NDTPJzz1nFksBmbz6FY8toi8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.193.41 with SMTP id j29mr27924567yhn.12.1326837314932; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:55:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: mattjeet@gmail.com Received: by 10.101.46.10 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:55:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <81A5F99A-CA8B-4BA9-936C-51F5421460AC@exonetric.com> References: <9E283165-BD56-4DBF-9799-757C475815FB@bsdimp.com> <81A5F99A-CA8B-4BA9-936C-51F5421460AC@exonetric.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:55:14 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: RpVNbYx5rDBBoWXwFX-GvPgS-GE Message-ID: From: Matt Olander To: Mark Blackman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mark Felder Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: matt@ixsystems.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:25:45 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Mark Blackman wrote: > On 17 Jan 2012, at 21:09, Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> On Jan 17, 2012, at 11:12 AM, John Kozubik wrote: >>> Again, I'm not suggesting more snapshots - I am suggesting more real, b= ona fide releases. =A0This will help people. >> >> I tend to agree with you. =A0Our release engineering process isn't servi= ng the needs of users as much as it once did. =A0When Walnut Creek was runn= ing release engineering, we had releases often because they wanted to make = money from their subscriptions. =A0This produced reasonably spaced minor re= leases and except for 4-5, decently spaced major releases. =A0Even after th= e torch passed from walnut creek to others, there was still either residual= pressures to make the releases happen, or inherited mindset that keep on t= he same pace. >> >> Today we have lost our way. =A0We have no major vendor pushing the proce= ss along to make it happen faster. > > What exactly did the major vendor to push things along? Keep nagging? > > I'd have thought PC-BSD and iXsystems are the natural people to to take o= ver that role in any > case. =A0 The FreeBSD foundation seems =A0less interested in the "for end= -users" angle as well. We'd be happy to sponsor a full-time employee at the Mall to handle rolling -STABLE into release a few more times per year. We might need a bit of help maintaining a long term release but we think it's a pretty good idea all the way around. Cheers, -matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:40:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9394106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:40:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3F58FC14 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:40:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D849237B65C; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:25:12 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 6351A177CD; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:25:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:25:12 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Mark Felder Message-ID: <20120117222512.GB509@over-yonder.net> References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:40:55 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 02:50:08PM -0600 I heard the voice of Mark Felder, and lo! it spake thus: > > I've seen several other things hit -STABLE right after the freeze > ended early January which surprise me that they weren't included in > -RELEASE and we didn't have another RC. You mean the 9.0-RELEASE that's scheduled to be done (after having already slipped a month) at the beginning of Sept 2011? At some point (well before those add'l patches you're talking about, IMO) you have to STOP and release the damn thing already. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:40:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8A51065675; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:40:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1D68FC12; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:40:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D852B37B4F8; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:22:57 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 366A0177CD; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:22:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:22:57 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Tom Evans Message-ID: <20120117222257.GA509@over-yonder.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:40:56 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:02:29PM +0000 I heard the voice of Tom Evans, and lo! it spake thus: > > You say that snapshots of STABLE are stable and effectively a > running release branch, so why can't more releases be made? > > Is the release process too complex for minor revisions, could that > be improved to make it easier to have more releases, eg by not > bundling ports packages? That's at LEAST a double edged sword. The moment you do that, you'll have a giant groundswell of complaining about how the "quality of releases" has gone down. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:41:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14D61065743; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:41:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61ECB8FC15; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:41:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE82E37B5B5; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:41:23 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 7D710178BE; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:41:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:41:23 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Hugo Silva Message-ID: <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Tom Evans , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:41:24 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:57:19PM +0000 I heard the voice of Hugo Silva, and lo! it spake thus: > > Come to think about it, those days are pretty much gone since 4.x > (incidentally, many of us who've stuck with FreeBSD for this long > think of 4.x as an epic series). Having been a FreeBSD user for a very long time, I don't think of 4.x as epic. I think of 5.x as a clusterf...un. 4.x didn't last such a long time because everyone thought it was awesome, it was because the next version was still so broken it was the only thing we had to release. And the reason it developed whatever excess "stability" it may have had is _because_ it was moribund. It's trivial to avoid introducing new bugs to software; all you have to do is never change it. The next best thing is to make very small targetted changes with enormous care to make them local. But that means you DON'T get things like new drivers and infrastructure and so on, because those are just the sort of big changes that are likely to create new problems even as they solve existing ones. At some point aroudn X.4 or X.5 it stops being -STABLE and starts just being -STALE. For me, the smaller jumps between major releases are a *GOOD* thing, because it makes it parsecs easier to move between them. Moving a system from 4 to 5 was a giant nightmare of everything breaking. The only thing I can remember worse was moving from 2.2 to 3 (and actually, most of my 2.2 systems either stayed that way until they died, or got moved via *HEROIC* efforts straight to 4). In contrast, moving from 6->7->8 was only a slightly larger bump than moving from 6.X to 6.Y. I have a specific system that I'm holding back moving from 8 to 9 now because of a specific change, and I'm sorta hoping I can retire that system before I have to try it. If we went back to the days of mega-major's, that would happen *EVERY* time. Now, there are some environments where upgrades are rare major events and every single upgrade (possibly excluding those that can be honestly described as "single targetted patch") requires a giant pile of from-scratch requalification. And in those cases, it's almost the same amount of work whether you're going from 4.6->4.7 as if you were doing 4.10->9.1. From that perspective, sure, giant lengthenings may sound like an excellent idea. But from the position of considering upgrades as common and minor things, giant leaps are a nightmare I want to avoid at all costs. > Maybe I'm horribly mistaken about the releasographics of production > FreeBSD users, but I think most of us tend to run -release [...] I doubt it would be easy to get stats. But you could probably draw a reasonable correlation between people using releases and binary packages, vs. source and port builds. That would probably be easier to get numbers on. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:55:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0041065670 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:55:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4168FC14 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:55:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so2404498vbb.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=nLcsKMjOdIURtrizKTUIM1Y9zGkWaC23F8jLavPNgbg=; b=TXEer10P5i/TwZLPlTo6Fur2BuYRJJssHbeNqoR4+TB2lhHFMOoSVomajN0o7I/CHM 6kYNPZjcRjQOt3GPQs8vojArqbQV+VZtpuGHW1og9G3hbQkysHE7g1r6QzgUlAgg+KTp 6MY+bNQlMz6BV01JnS5KswdSQZoYwY6q2aZJc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.94.33 with SMTP id cz1mr6611433vdb.132.1326840900148; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.36.5 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:55:00 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: r71ycYtwOkdjHtrxy5J7GNmoJj0 Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Igor Mozolevsky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: richo , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@futurecis.com, William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:55:01 -0000 On 16 January 2012 18:21, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 17 January 2012 01:02, richo wrote: > >> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. > > Isn't this a bit of a cyclical argument: developers don't work because > they are not paid a salary, the end-user base shrinks, BigCo doesn't > want to pay for someone to put extra work in getting fBSD to do > something that it can get elsewhere (eg Linux), fewer still developers > work on fBSD, end-user base shrinks, BigCo is even more reluctant, > even fewer.... Right, so some people need to stand up and actually push their agenda forward by agreeing to take on (and then completing) contributions towards the project that furthers their goals. OP - if you'd like to see FreeBSD's stable release schedule pushed forward a bit quicker then please, step up and offer to assist. No-one is going to say no. Everyone will appreciate the extra help. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:56:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C30106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:56:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAFA8FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:56:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so2406469vbb.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JJ97k6UQGxX85b8t1pdWrZvDQGrSGwLxWKk8qn5ztxQ=; b=mXhqmGq9Y6zBsnj2338NAxjqYSDVXEC6DyLQBs48GE3IxcKxJQtAaCq5WBzGOCW27F mwvx5agKaDF+yD1lyssjJoptWojvgsrRNC8FNG/iw/EjjJm7/3rkB8VHVNYsn1NI8k61 paTDCjvCvX2PCwcCFTHrE0srqIfAh+NTmJN1c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.35 with SMTP id r3mr9564797vdf.81.1326841006610; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.36.5 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:56:46 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: URSzHTKC-PEFMEMfOFM5EUqrgno Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Atom Smasher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:56:47 -0000 On 16 January 2012 22:32, Atom Smasher wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, richo wrote: > >> This would be a different argument if all the devs were paid a salary. > > ============== > > what percentage of linux devs are on salary to develop linux? That's the wrong question. The question is "what is a good minimum threshold for the number of paid developers on ${PROJECT} (which is project-specific!) to create a sustainable project, given the requirements of developers and users." Then you see whether the number of developers meets this threshold. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 22:57:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E8C106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:57:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163D28FC18 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:57:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so8929892iag.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.178.71 with SMTP id cw7mr19650045igc.0.1326839309079; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mikmeyer-vm-fedora (dhcp-173-37-11-196.cisco.com. [173.37.11.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gf6sm33023361igb.1.2012.01.17.14.28.28 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:28:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:28:26 -0800 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120117142826.4f68c7d5@mikmeyer-vm-fedora> In-Reply-To: <81A5F99A-CA8B-4BA9-936C-51F5421460AC@exonetric.com> References: <9E283165-BD56-4DBF-9799-757C475815FB@bsdimp.com> <81A5F99A-CA8B-4BA9-936C-51F5421460AC@exonetric.com> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10 (GTK+ 2.24.7; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:57:06 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:27:24 +0000 Mark Blackman wrote: > I'd have thought PC-BSD and iXsystems are the natural people to to > take over that role in any case. The FreeBSD foundation seems less > interested in the "for end-users" angle as well. If that's the case, is there any reason for cutting "FreeBSD" releases? No, I'm serious. If FreeBSD is being run by developers for developers (first rule of organizations: they're run for the benefit of the people who run them), how do they benefit from a release? If users move to some other organizations releases, and the developers don't get any benefit from them, why do them? On a less radical note, how about taking in the resources suggested for the "sponsored branch", and using those to reorganize and expand the role of release engineering? Maybe get help from PC-BSD and iXsystems as well? Make STABLE the "sponsored" branch owned by the expanded RE group. To justify this, change it to an "always production ready" approach. Set up a CI system to test it regularly, and back out changes that break the build or tests. This does *not* include testing ports or anything else outside the base system. RELEASES become a snapshot of the new "always production ready" STABLE that has ports (and anything else included that's outside the base system) built for it and tested on it. The goal is that doing the work to keep STABLE production ready will significantly decrease the amount of work required to do a release. Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E374106575E for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:01:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com (mail-vx0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0769A8FC0A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:01:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so3490432vcb.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:01:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zcxHv+PcnEuvZtxe/AEH1wIOnMJ/NbkQ8N6ko5zghEU=; b=dJ2KNmPVykx6kd9DXN9Uii+DDk6tVAzFFaxDZLtNxWdyEcQOSI9e52X6gAvNuFeQtd WH0CXCkYpt5teVKST9pGvD/PH9OhMt6WVk4Wx3XTVTQUZPn2sV8LNZeru6T+8uP1t9B2 lBeimcLozVrLP3uGYCL/DCeP2yc9JZlrmQHLc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.154.10 with SMTP id m10mr11857406vcw.37.1326841277229; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:01:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.36.5 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:01:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:01:17 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: TSy2zzaW1ul9eEzPSfnqvOqB3XI Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: John Kozubik Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:01:18 -0000 .. I'm replying to the OP because honestly, this thread has gotten a bit derailed. If you'd like to see: ... more frequent releases? then please step up and help with all the infrastructure needed to roll out test releases, including building _all_ the ports. A lot of people keep forgetting that a "release" is "build all the ports for all the supported platforms". ... longer lifecycle? Then please step up and contribute patches for features for your favourite branch. As a developer doing this in my spare time I'm only really working on new features on -HEAD and maybe backporting fixes to 9.x. What _I_ would like is someone to take on the task of testing and backporting net80211/ath fixes to 8.x and 7.x. ... longer branch lifecycle? Same as above. None of the developers are going to reject bugfixes and backported drivers to a legacy, stable branch. We may be a bit against the idea of porting entire new subsystems to legacy, stable branches - but if there's a good enough reason _and_ it's been tested _and_ there's a need for it - _I_ wouldn't say no. If you care this much to comment on it, please consider caring enough to step up and assist. Or, pay a company like ixSystems for FreeBSD support and get them to do this for you. Otherwise you're just re-iterating the same stuff I'm sure all the developers know but are just out of manpower/time/money/resources to do anything about. Adrian (who _did_ step up and take over a subsystem, so I'm speaking from recent experience.) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:08:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B852A1065670 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC808FC16 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa02 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0HN6s6U023189; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:08:53 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djc0g0a8-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:08:53 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:08:52 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Garrett Cooper'" , References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:09:16 -0800 Message-ID: <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFTuuDxM2D0gQ4oJ7TghrFqaFf0jQJO0ujSAnKeI/iW3VGeEA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_08:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:58 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Garrett Cooper > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:07 PM > To: WBentley@futurecis.com > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM, William Bentley > wrote: > > I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. > > Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the > > only one who felt this way. > > > > I also have several FreeBSD installations spread across different > > development/production systems and it is not feasible to always > > upgrade to the latest and greatest. Part of why FreeBSD is difficult > > to adopt into more of the commercial/government sectors is because of > > this fast paced release cycle and most of the important patches/fixes > > are not backported far enough. This is why most of my customers decide > > to use Solaris or RedHat and not FreeBSD. (Not looking to start a > > flame war about the OS choice/etc just pointing out the Release cycle > > model). I would love to push FreeBSD harder but it is becoming > > increasingly difficult as of late. > > > > We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am all > > in favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and proper > > life cycle management. > > > > Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among the > > minority? > > You aren't. There are other people like Devin Teske's group that feel the same > (they're upgrading from 4.x to 8.2! Brave man.. and godspeed to him), Thanks! Actually, we're jumping from 4.11 to 8.1 (not 8.2 -- reason as follows). A lot of the problems we're having in 8.1 still exist in 8.2 (but will go-away in 8.3, according to what we're seeing already-committed to RELENG_8 tag beyond the RELENG_8_2_0_RELEASE tag -- that is, if 8.3 ever gets produced!). Therefore, we've seen no need to push 8.2 (in-fact, we've internally black-listed it because it doesn't fix anything we care about). So far, we've made over 10 patches to FreeBSD-8.1, and not a one of them would have been needed for 8.3, but all of them would still be needed for 8.2. I might add that we're doing an in-place binary migration from 4.11 to 8.1 using a very sophisticated sh(1) script named "host_rebuild" which we'll be releasing later this year. It allows binary migration both forwards, backwards, and even stationary (re-installing the same OS, to either migrate architecture or simply rebuild the OS). > along with > some development organizations that depend on long release cycles (IronPort, > Isilon, etc). I brought this up in last weekend's BAFUG meeting... We're _very_ interested in replicating the long-lifecycle of the 4-series with a newer series. But which one? Right now, we're jumping to the 8-series, but after seeing that one of the major focal points for 9 is McKusick's SU+J (SoftUpdates Journaling -- tunefs -j enable), I'm ready to say that the 9-series should instead be the "chosen outlier" when it comes to picking one single release to have an ultra-wide lifecycle. The 9-series represents the first release to integrate a journaled filesystem by-default into the system (aka boot) filesystem(s). We were pleasantly surprised to see that the default installer enabled SU+J by-default when choosing "guided" and "auto" for disk partitioning. NOTE: We hated gjournal -- too clunky as a "bolt-on" solution. SU+J is a breath of fresh-air as it's truly integrated into the filesystem and recognized at the base FreeBSD level. -- Devin > That being said. More people, more likelihood to succeed with what you need, > like julian@ suggests. I like long release cycles too for stuff that I find critical and > "in production", like my router. My fileserver is a slightly different story, but I just > got off the CURRENT bandwagon off on to the 9-STABLE bandwagon :). > Cheers, > -Garrett > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:17:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C92106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:17:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A488FC15 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:17:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3027210pbd.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=iC7PlmnunGVYA6f9lDnVc6ziOROjWq9w1rNr09DEDww=; b=mERi+mL2m1dx5J7xDlLVqwYpc9v55NhhAoFWzSnt8mAJlEev+swHJa7egvxMOlefLW xfMfaRGvlx4ujY52g48s95hszr9KSCgoSdE01ufs+ZLbR7lemmVXnZXcebswERdBtt0v vZs9p5v3NsUToSFOUL9YEpKOJ8KtrqnfEvl60= Received: by 10.68.212.73 with SMTP id ni9mr38632250pbc.82.1326842252183; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:16:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:16:51 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hKZscgJY4Zcw0nFFDrSfqdjroaw Message-ID: To: Adrian Chadd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:17:32 -0000 On 17 January 2012 23:01, Adrian Chadd wrote: > If you'd like to see: > > ... more frequent releases? then please step up and help with all the > infrastructure needed to roll out test releases, including building > _all_ the ports. A lot of people keep forgetting that a "release" is > "build all the ports for all the supported platforms". I don't know this so I'm asking: does fixing a port to work on a pending release involve substantial changes (as in functionality cf. cosmetic) to the "core" or just patching the port to work with the core? If latter, maybe it's worthwhile uncoupling the two (core OS and ports)? -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:17:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A06261065788 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:17:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA4A8FC18 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:17:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id BAA16394; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:17:52 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnIHo-0005m2-9r; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:17:52 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:17:51 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Lepore References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> In-Reply-To: <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-U Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:17:59 -0000 on 17/01/2012 23:46 Ian Lepore said the following: > Now, before we're even really completely up and running on 8.2 at work, > 9.0 hits the street, and developers have moved on to working in the 10.0 > world. What are the chances that any of the patches I've submitted for > bugs we fixed in 8.x are ever going to get commited now that 8 is well > on its way to becoming ancient history in developers' minds? My opinion is that this will have more to do with your approach to pushing the patches (and your persistence) rather than with anything else. As long as stable/8 is still a supported branch or the bugs are reproducible in any of the supported branches. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:27:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DA01065670; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:27:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33678FC13; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:27:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id BAA16497; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:27:36 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnIRE-0005mM-JS; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:27:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4F1603E7.3080700@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:27:35 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Chadd References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:27:39 -0000 on 18/01/2012 01:01 Adrian Chadd said the following: > .. I'm replying to the OP because honestly, this thread has gotten a > bit derailed. > > If you'd like to see: > > ... more frequent releases? then please step up and help with all the > infrastructure needed to roll out test releases, including building > _all_ the ports. A lot of people keep forgetting that a "release" is > "build all the ports for all the supported platforms". > > ... longer lifecycle? Then please step up and contribute patches for > features for your favourite branch. As a developer doing this in my > spare time I'm only really working on new features on -HEAD and maybe > backporting fixes to 9.x. What _I_ would like is someone to take on > the task of testing and backporting net80211/ath fixes to 8.x and 7.x. > > ... longer branch lifecycle? Same as above. None of the developers are > going to reject bugfixes and backported drivers to a legacy, stable > branch. We may be a bit against the idea of porting entire new > subsystems to legacy, stable branches - but if there's a good enough > reason _and_ it's been tested _and_ there's a need for it - _I_ > wouldn't say no. And another 2 cents from me: we also have this KPI/KBI stability policy for the stable branches. So if anyone would like to have a "stable" branch but with some super wanted/needed/requested change added, then that would be a bit harder to arrange. I personally would call that a custom branch. And that of course can also be done, even as an "official" custom branch, but interested people would need either to take the job upon themselves or find (motivate, interest) those who would the job for them. > If you care this much to comment on it, please consider caring enough > to step up and assist. Or, pay a company like ixSystems for FreeBSD > support and get them to do this for you. Otherwise you're just > re-iterating the same stuff I'm sure all the developers know but are > just out of manpower/time/money/resources to do anything about. > > > > Adrian > (who _did_ step up and take over a subsystem, so I'm speaking from > recent experience.) -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:30:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A80106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:30:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66C858FC1D for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:30:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 24476 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jan 2012 23:30:26 -0000 Received: from 67.206.184.113 by rms-us018 with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:29:50 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120117233024.218240@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: x2FkbyQ03zOlNR3dAHAhXnd+IGRvb0Db Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:30:27 -0000 Atom writes: > i bought myself a LENOVO T510 when it first came out, around early 2010. > it's got an i5 CPU and Arrandale GPU. it's two years old and on freeBSD i > STILL can't run xorg properly with it. I have a machine from 2005-08 that FreeBSD still doesn't support properly in 2012. After much research I figured out that SATA NCQ was an essential feature, and choose a mainboard with nforce4 to get it. FreeBSD still doesn't support NCQ on nforce after all these years. Linux has had NCQ on nforce4 since Oct 2006. FreeBSD also doesn't properly support the onboard VIA firewire chip, which is still found on new mainboards today. I don't necessarily expect support for every exotic chip out there the first day they hit the street, but these are both popular chips, and it is 6.5 years later. I'm not sure how an OS is supposed to have "The power to serve" when it can't even talk to disks properly. And all the device drivers that think it is ok to lollygag around for absurd lengths of time with interrupts turned off, thus causing data to be lost. Damien writes: > Check this PR I opened some months ago: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=161123&cat=kern > > It was planned for 9.0-RELEASE, there is no mention of 8.x > That's just the kind of problem John raises here. Hey, at least you have a fix, and it is even in a release (I'm assuming it made it into 9.0). The bigger problem is all the bugs that don't have fixes at all. Igor writes: > patches go ignored (no, I don't have a reference) Here is a PR that contains a patch, yet is still open after several years. Also fixes an even older PR from Dec 2006. Dinky little patch, works great. Should be easy enough to code inspect, test, and check in. http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=127717&cat= Mark writes: > Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Experience. John writes: > Is three per year an insane schedule ? Remember, I am simultaneously > advocating that FreeBSD stop publishing two production releases > simultaneously, which is almost oxymoronic Why is publishing two production releases almost oxymoronic? Seems like a very good policy to me. Say you are running 8.1. It is good to have the choice of going to a low risk 8.2 with bugfixes or going to 9.0 with some major new feature at the expense of more work and higher risk. If you want the option of sticking with a major release series (say 8.x) for a long time, then there needs to be at least two production releases supported. As fast as major releases are coming out, probably 3 or 4. Why are major releases coming out so often? Gotta compete in the large number war. NetBSD was at 1.x for years and years, then suddenly someone decided to change the numbering scheme and they're off to the races. Firefox has caught the same insanity. I see complaints from medium-to-large sites, yet FreeBSD's budget is so small. Surely it must be possible for these medium-to-large sites to pay into a fund to improve things. FreeBSD clearly needs more developers to fix problems, to code review, test, and check in patches, and to improve the documentation. Judging from this email thread there is a demand for more/better release engineering and backporting as well. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:36:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0592C106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:36:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F758FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:36:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.74]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id NnTU1i0051bwxycA1nciY4; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:36:42 +0000 Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org ([24.8.232.202]) by omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Nnch1i00h4NgCEG8enciEe; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:36:42 +0000 Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HNadC1005322; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:36:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: Andriy Gapon In-Reply-To: <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:36:39 -0700 Message-Id: <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.0 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:36:43 -0000 On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 01:17 +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 17/01/2012 23:46 Ian Lepore said the following: > > Now, before we're even really completely up and running on 8.2 at work, > > 9.0 hits the street, and developers have moved on to working in the 10.0 > > world. What are the chances that any of the patches I've submitted for > > bugs we fixed in 8.x are ever going to get commited now that 8 is well > > on its way to becoming ancient history in developers' minds? > > My opinion is that this will have more to do with your approach to pushing the > patches (and your persistence) rather than with anything else. As long as > stable/8 is still a supported branch or the bugs are reproducible in any of the > supported branches. Well I submitted a sort of random sample of the patches we're maintaining at work, 11 of them as formal PRs and 2 posted to the lists here recently. So far two have been committed (the most important one and the most trivial one, oddly enough). I'm not sure just how pushy one is supposed to be, I don't want to be a jerk. Not to mention that I wouldn't know who to push. That's actually why I'm now being active on the mailing lists, I figured maybe patches will be more accepted from someone the commiters know rather than just as code out of the blue attached to a PR. I think it would be great if there were some developers (a team, maybe something not quite that formal) who concentrated on maintenance of older code for the user base who needs it. I'd be happy to contribute to that effort, both on my own time, and I have a commitment from management at work to allow me a certain amount of billable work hours to interface with the FreeBSD community, especially in terms of getting our work contributed back to the project (both to help the project, and to help us upgrade more easily in the future). I have no idea if there are enough developers who'd be interested in such a concept to make it work, co-op or otherwise. But I like the fact that users and developers are talking about their various needs and concerns without any degeneration into flame wars. It's cool that most of the focus here is centered on how to make things better for everyone. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:49:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E3F106566C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:49:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B51D8FC13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:49:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 82301 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 21:02:56 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (33% of Full) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:03:58 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:49:37 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Mark Felder wrote: >> linux is, in fact, an operating system. debian, red hat, ubuntu, >> gentoo, etc are distributions of that OS. > > It's not really worth getting into this argument, but I'll reiterate > that no, it's not an OS -- it's a kernel. Without the userland utilities > the distros provide it's not very usable. Linus and co don't maintain > the shell or the rc subsystem or anything like that. They only work on > the kernel and in-tree drivers. We need to be comparing FreeBSD to a > full blown distro. ================ if it makes you feel better, then pick a distribution of linux, and compare it's successes and/or failings to freeBSD. whether or not linux is an OS or "just a kernel" is irrelevant here, but at the same time an interesting distinction (and let's not debate it here, just acknowledge that it's been pointed out) since freeBSD is both a kernel and a collection of core utilities. in some ways freeBSD is like the linux kernel, in other ways it's more like a distribution of linux. would freeBSD benefit from breaking up those things into explicitly different projects? like linux & GNU? -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." -- Lily Tomlin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:50:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4BD1065695; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:50:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 172-17-198-245.globalsuite.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526391521F0; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:50:39 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:50:38 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Chadd References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:50:50 -0000 First, let's do away with the whole, "If you step up to help, your help will be accepted with open arms" myth. That's only true if the project leadership agrees with your goals. We also need to take a step back and ask if throwing more person-hours at the problem is the right solution, or if redesigning the system to better meet the needs of the users *as a first step* is the right answer? On 01/17/2012 15:01, Adrian Chadd wrote: > .. I'm replying to the OP because honestly, this thread has gotten a > bit derailed. > > If you'd like to see: > > ... more frequent releases? then please step up and help with all the > infrastructure needed to roll out test releases, including building > _all_ the ports. A lot of people keep forgetting that a "release" is > "build all the ports for all the supported platforms". Does it need to be? I've been pushing a long time now to have a branched ports tree. If we have a "stable" version of the ports where only known-good changes are promoted then that frees us up quite a bit to redefine what a "release" is. > ... longer lifecycle? Then please step up and contribute patches for > features for your favourite branch. As a developer doing this in my > spare time I'm only really working on new features on -HEAD and maybe > backporting fixes to 9.x. What _I_ would like is someone to take on > the task of testing and backporting net80211/ath fixes to 8.x and 7.x. So you want to do all the fun stuff, and have someone else do your scut work? Good luck with that. :) Maybe what we need to do is redefine what it means to be a FreeBSD committer. "From now on, your commit bit comes with XYZ privileges, but also ABC responsibilities." Sure, we'd lose some people, but what would we gain? Also, your premise is flawed. We (speaking generally) suck at supporting more than one -stable branch. We *really* suck at supporting three. Six months ago when the machinery was just beginning to spin up for 9.0-RELEASE I tried to get the PTB to reconsider. I was told that my concerns were invalid because it was basically ready to go as is. The plan I laid out at the time was to have no more than 2 stable branches extant at any given time. Lengthen the periods where each stable branch is supported, and terminate the oldest one when the newest one is released. > ... longer branch lifecycle? Same as above. None of the developers are > going to reject bugfixes and backported drivers to a legacy, stable > branch. We may be a bit against the idea of porting entire new > subsystems to legacy, stable branches - but if there's a good enough > reason _and_ it's been tested _and_ there's a need for it - _I_ > wouldn't say no. But committers already fail to MFC *existing* bug fixes to stable branches (even ones they generated). This is especially true for the older branches. So how is the idea of users generating more new bug fixes going to help? What I'd like to see us do is to rethink what a "release" is. In particular, I'd like to see us start to do more point releases (e.g., 8.2.1) which involve only updates to the base, and don't involve the whole ports and doc machinery. This would combine the current patch releases done for security purposes. Ideally of course we'd have a branch were known-good stuff was merged from the -stable branch, so an 8.2.1 wouldn't (necessarily) be what's in stable/8 at the time. However I'm not sure we have the personnel for that, so even doing stable/8 -> 8.2.N would be an improvement over what we have. One area where user involvement *would* be really welcome here is in the area of regression testing. It would be much easier to cut a point release if we had a series of regression tests, submitted by users so as to reflect real world conditions, that we could run against the new version. That way we could at least be sure that we didn't break anything that current users of that branch are relying on. Several people have mentioned 3x/year as a good release schedule, I don't see any reason why we couldn't do point releases in that timescale. The other thing I think has been missing (as several have pointed out in this thread already) is any sort of planning for what should be in the next release. The current time-based release schedule is (in large part) a reaction to the problems we had in getting 5.0 out the door. However I think the pendulum has swung *way* too far in the wrong direction, such that we are now afraid to put *any* kind of plan in place for fear that it will cause the release schedule to slip. Aside from the obvious folly in that (lack of) plan, it fails to take into account the fact that the release schedules already slip, often comically far out into the future, and that the results are often worse than they would have been otherwise. Meta-note, there is going to be a strong knee-jerk reaction to that last paragraph to the effect that I'm attacking individuals who are involved in the release process. I'm not. The *system* is deeply flawed, so the heroic efforts of those doing their best to make that system work are in vain. That's tragic for all concerned, including those who've given so generously of their time and effort. I tried to make the point back in June that there was no reason to cut 9.0-RELEASE yet because we don't have solid support for clang in either the base, or ports (amongst several other reasons) and that the delay for getting that working would be a great "excuse" for slipping the support schedule for 8 so that we could release 9.0 not-too-long before 7 was about to go EOL, and make the 8/9/10 release schedules fit the new, (hopefully) more rational model. Perhaps we can reconsider that idea for 10.0. Doug -- It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short. Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:52:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0B71065672 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:52:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF768FC08 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:52:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HNqRd5049104; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0HNqM8d049101; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:52:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:52:22 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 'Garrett Cooper' , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@futurecis.com Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:52:34 -0000 Hi Devin, On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Devin Teske wrote: > I brought this up in last weekend's BAFUG meeting... > > We're _very_ interested in replicating the long-lifecycle of the 4-series with a > newer series. But which one? > > Right now, we're jumping to the 8-series, but after seeing that one of the major > focal points for 9 is McKusick's SU+J (SoftUpdates Journaling -- tunefs -j > enable), I'm ready to say that the 9-series should instead be the "chosen > outlier" when it comes to picking one single release to have an ultra-wide > lifecycle. > > The 9-series represents the first release to integrate a journaled filesystem > by-default into the system (aka boot) filesystem(s). We were pleasantly > surprised to see that the default installer enabled SU+J by-default when > choosing "guided" and "auto" for disk partitioning. There's two parallel suggestions being put forth here, both of which are interesting: - Allow a related party to adopt a release (as I understand it) and provide a sub-community taht donates resources to tending and updating that release. - Picking a "chosen" release to really dive into, officially, and polish and extend it, like 4. If I had to pick, I'd say the second one, but I'm not sure either one is the right direction. I think a more sustainable, balanced approach that can be extended for every release into the future would be best. I don't really want to see some semi-official "fork", or "extended release" - it would duplicate a lot of existing effort as well as raise questions about how "official" it was. Would vmware support it as a real release ? Large organizations might disqualify it the same way they would STABLE. As for picking 8 or 9 to be the "chosen" exception - that would help me a lot in the short term, but if things are being done wrong, they should be fixed in the long run. I think the real choice that has to be made is "when will we halt proclaiming two simultaneous releases as production ?" and since 9 is already here, it can't be 8/9, it has to be 9/10. You could progress 8.x along its current trajectory, possibly building 8.4 a year or so from now and then be done with it, and then that would be the last short/unfocused release. Then you postpone 10.0-RELEASE until January 2017. Instead of having a legacy branch and two production branches, you would have legacy (8) production (9) and ... nothing. Or if you need to have it out there, 10 is the development branch. Minor releases come out 2-3 times per year, which gets you to 9.10 or 9.15 at the end of the cycle. On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Adrian Chadd wrote: > OP - if you'd like to see FreeBSD's stable release schedule pushed > forward a bit quicker then please, step up and offer to assist. No-one > is going to say no. Everyone will appreciate the extra help. I don't really know how much upheaval is implied in pushing 10.0 to 2017, developing only one "production" release, and running 9.x up to 9.15 (or whatever) but I can contribute USD $10k per year that this course was followed, or $50k over five years. We can contribute some hardware, hosting and bandwidth as well. Are there any others here who can chip in, or whose firms can ? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:55:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661A7106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:55:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@feld.me) Received: from mwi1.coffeenet.org (unknown [IPv6:2607:f4e0:100:300::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8108FC15 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:55:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=feld.me; s=blargle; h=In-Reply-To:Message-Id:From:Mime-Version:Date:References:Subject:To:Content-Type; bh=otmAqowD8uWzzC8ogT6QR/TJljQuRd1nKLJEi2nh3Is=; b=Wep3u5zRqiq+jH1226OuWEUnau7BnB5hLGyz4YzbNspK/bUU9bKbtiOTH9x0q+e/IJU7m48+GWkzljkpgT0zqZfvHhj+GAZSF7ye9ksa+dW4xdYRMnxCtTSn79OcNSK7; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mwi1.coffeenet.org) by mwi1.coffeenet.org with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1RnIs0-0003z3-Gx for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:55:17 -0600 Received: from feld@feld.me by mwi1.coffeenet.org (Archiveopteryx 3.1.4) with esmtpsa id 1326844510-2798-2797/5/3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:55:10 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> <20120117222512.GB509@over-yonder.net> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:55:10 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Felder Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20120117222512.GB509@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.61 (FreeBSD) X-SA-Score: -1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:55:18 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:25:12 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 02:50:08PM -0600 I heard the voice of > Mark Felder, and lo! it spake thus: >> >> I've seen several other things hit -STABLE right after the freeze >> ended early January which surprise me that they weren't included in >> -RELEASE and we didn't have another RC. > > You mean the 9.0-RELEASE that's scheduled to be done (after having > already slipped a month) at the beginning of Sept 2011? At some point > (well before those add'l patches you're talking about, IMO) you have > to STOP and release the damn thing already. > > Yeah, but how much sense does it make to do a -RELEASE with critical bugs? For example, gmultipath guarantees a panic on various hardware just by breaking a path. This was fixed in a full rewrite discussed this summer and publicized in November. Now anyone with shiny 9.0 (or even 8.2) running gmultipath risks a panic. The fix IS the rewrite. But it's s total rewrite and so patching that onto 9.0 as errata doesn't really make sense (rewrite adds features too), so now the choices for a stable gmultipath is -STABLE or patiently waiting for 9.1. So yeah, 9.0 slipped hard. Perhaps it should have slipped a bit further until blockers like gmultipath and the cdrom/CAM stuff were fully addressed. But it's impossible to release 100% bug free software.... where exactly *do* you draw the line? :-/ I certainly would not be better than anyone else at managing any portion of this project. I'm just glad I have the ability to find and apply fixes myself when necessary. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:59:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EAC106564A for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:59:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F398FC0C for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:59:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0HNxrY2049177; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:59:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0HNxmBV049174; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:59:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:59:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:59:55 -0000 Hi Doug, Thanks a lot for these comments and insight - response below... On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Doug Barton wrote: > I tried to make the point back in June that there was no reason to cut > 9.0-RELEASE yet because we don't have solid support for clang in either > the base, or ports (amongst several other reasons) and that the delay > for getting that working would be a great "excuse" for slipping the > support schedule for 8 so that we could release 9.0 not-too-long before > 7 was about to go EOL, and make the 8/9/10 release schedules fit the > new, (hopefully) more rational model. Perhaps we can reconsider that > idea for 10.0. Just previously in this thread, I suggested the following: You could progress 8.x along its current trajectory, possibly building 8.4 a year or so from now and then be done with it, and then that would be the last short/unfocused release. Then you postpone 10.0-RELEASE until January 2017. Instead of having a legacy branch and two production branches, you would have legacy (8) production (9) and ... nothing. Or if you need to have it out there, 10 is the development branch. Minor releases come out 2-3 times per year, which gets you to 9.10 or 9.15 at the end of the cycle. I wonder if this is too aggressive in that direction, or if this would be a decent balance ? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 00:00:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECBF106568E for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:00:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0768FC20 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:00:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id CAA17008; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:00:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnIx0-0005nS-K9; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:00:26 +0200 Message-ID: <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:00:25 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Lepore References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> In-Reply-To: <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:00:38 -0000 on 18/01/2012 01:36 Ian Lepore said the following: > On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 01:17 +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> on 17/01/2012 23:46 Ian Lepore said the following: >>> Now, before we're even really completely up and running on 8.2 at work, >>> 9.0 hits the street, and developers have moved on to working in the 10.0 >>> world. What are the chances that any of the patches I've submitted for >>> bugs we fixed in 8.x are ever going to get commited now that 8 is well >>> on its way to becoming ancient history in developers' minds? >> >> My opinion is that this will have more to do with your approach to pushing the >> patches (and your persistence) rather than with anything else. As long as >> stable/8 is still a supported branch or the bugs are reproducible in any of the >> supported branches. > > Well I submitted a sort of random sample of the patches we're > maintaining at work, 11 of them as formal PRs and 2 posted to the lists > here recently. Just a note: the next best thing you can to _not_ have a patch committed is to just open a PR and stop at that. The best thing being not sharing the patch at all :-) > So far two have been committed (the most important one > and the most trivial one, oddly enough). I'm not sure just how pushy > one is supposed to be, I don't want to be a jerk. Some things that help: - send a problem description and a patch (or a short description and a link to a PR) to a relevant mailing list - maintain a discussion of the patch if it arises - try to be interesting and keep the interested folks hooked - find some folks who recently committed stuff in the area of the patch and contact them directly - don't just wait for too long, remind about yourself and the patch, try different mailing lists/people - never give up - stay technical, never get bitter or overly emotional - don't refuse when offered a commit bit :-) > Not to mention that I > wouldn't know who to push. That's actually why I'm now being active on > the mailing lists, I figured maybe patches will be more accepted from > someone the commiters know rather than just as code out of the blue > attached to a PR. That helps. And, as I've said above, being pro-active about the patches helps too. > I think it would be great if there were some developers (a team, maybe > something not quite that formal) who concentrated on maintenance of > older code for the user base who needs it. Yes, it would be great if some current developers found themselves interested/motivated to do that kind of work. Or if some new developers joined the ranks to do the job. > I'd be happy to contribute > to that effort, both on my own time, and I have a commitment from > management at work to allow me a certain amount of billable work hours > to interface with the FreeBSD community, especially in terms of getting > our work contributed back to the project (both to help the project, and > to help us upgrade more easily in the future). That sounds great! I am sure that this approach will be productive. > I have no idea if there are enough developers who'd be interested in > such a concept to make it work, co-op or otherwise. But I like the fact > that users and developers are talking about their various needs and > concerns without any degeneration into flame wars. It's cool that most > of the focus here is centered on how to make things better for everyone. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 00:07:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F186106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:07:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6FF8FC08; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:07:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.netplex.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id q0HNjHww046096; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:45:17 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Message whitelisted by DRAC access database, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.6 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:45:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:45:17 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: Igor Mozolevsky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:07:40 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 17 January 2012 23:01, Adrian Chadd wrote: > >> If you'd like to see: >> >> ... more frequent releases? then please step up and help with all the >> infrastructure needed to roll out test releases, including building >> _all_ the ports. A lot of people keep forgetting that a "release" is >> "build all the ports for all the supported platforms". > > I don't know this so I'm asking: does fixing a port to work on a > pending release involve substantial changes (as in functionality cf. > cosmetic) to the "core" or just patching the port to work with the > core? If latter, maybe it's worthwhile uncoupling the two (core OS and > ports)? IMHO, the two are already uncoupled too much. The problem I have with ports is that there is not a -stable branch that tracks with -stable core. I don't need the latest and greatest ports, just security and bug fixes. It doesn't even have to be every port, just the commonly used ports. There's not enough man power for this, unfortunately, but I'm still happy that at least we _do_ have _a_ ports system :-) -- DE From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 00:16:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DC7106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:16:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFC68FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:16:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3057788pbd.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:16:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QDpGBPqauedksfAUvd3CM/CQPkUcTW73RM3uJMl6Obg=; b=QYruoJOM0ncWgENMu9RWvuvxcz6KrkxfBUFH7LtA33oV34b3AeFtDALmYCeqsDq7uh KnGkugLd8dpTmgwUBDaOoal8aDGPyQFqjkmDgJFFlOqYvElGGdtBEE4pDNUhgpl8jCJ4 ceRAPwbKMZ5PwNqZAbG08d1pXmn01yNZRruFU= Received: by 10.68.190.101 with SMTP id gp5mr38769280pbc.31.1326845804137; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:16:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:16:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:16:03 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: gRYIfcMcK07_ctZE_ZPVn9TK-GU Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:16:44 -0000 On 18 January 2012 00:00, Andriy Gapon wrote: > Just a note: the next best thing you can to _not_ have a patch committed = is to > just open a PR and stop at that. =C2=A0The best thing being not sharing t= he patch at > all :-) [snip] > Some things that help: > - send a problem description and a patch (or a short description and a li= nk to a > PR) to a relevant mailing list > - maintain a discussion of the patch if it arises > - try to be interesting and keep the interested folks hooked > - find some folks who recently committed stuff in the area of the patch a= nd > contact them directly > - don't just wait for too long, remind about yourself and the patch, try > different mailing lists/people > - never give up > - stay technical, never get bitter or overly emotional > - don't refuse when offered a commit bit :-) Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours personally, but you get my gist). No other project requires a non-committer to be so ridiculously persistent in order to get a patch through. Such system is plainly wrong---it simply discourages people from sending "this works for me"(TM) fixes. The committers have to realise three things: they can and do write broken code now and then, most people who write patches to help the fBSD along don't have the time to become full time committers (otherwise they'd already be, right?), and there's only so many times one is willing to bang their head against a wall with no results---as Einstein pointed out "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"... I'm not saying that responding to reasonable requests from people who are in the process of testing and committing the patch, but expecting the end-users to chase committers to have a fix included is plainly wrong!.. -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 00:18:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8444106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:18:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2218FC12; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:18:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa02 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0HNQ0fO011076; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:17:45 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djc0g6rh-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:17:45 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:17:43 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Julian Elischer'" , "'Mark Felder'" References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:18:08 -0800 Message-ID: <03ab01ccd576$a8b1bee0$fa153ca0$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFTuuDxM2D0gQ4oJ7TghrFqaFf0jQIwvkNsAbrfJ2OW5AAqoA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_08:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:18:08 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM > To: Mark Felder > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and life= cycle >=20 > On 1/17/12 7:39 AM, Mark Felder wrote: > > Why is everyone so afraid of running -STABLE? Plenty of stuff gets > > MFC'd. Yeah, I agree -- running -RELEASE is difficult. Hell, it's > > frustrating to us that VMWare only supports -RELEASE and it took until > > ESX 5 to officially support 8.2! > > > > More releases / snapshots of -STABLE helps people on physical servers, > > but anyone who runs VMs on Xen or VMWare won't get any support for > > those versions because they didn't go through the QA process yet. > > FreeBSD is increasingly becoming a third world citizen thanks to > > virtualization efforts being focused on Linux, so I feel that more > > frequent releases won't help as many people as you think. >=20 > I'm going to go both ways on this one. >=20 > Where I used to work (Devin Teske is now there) we used to use the 'stab= le' > branch and rolll our own releases. We still do this today, but have only further enhanced the procedure. Within FreeBSD announcing a new release, we can be ready to ship said-relea= se within 3-6 weeks. However, that's not to say that our customers can take said-new-release eve= ry 3-6 weeks. Our largest customer is not-surprisingly the fastest at turn-= around but at-best could only do maybe 2 releases at-most in a single year.= Our smaller customers are taking OS upgrades much slower (every-other year= if we're lucky; more like once every 3 years). For both our large and small customers, we actively back-port device suppor= t in-accordance with hardware manufacturing windows. This is to explain that our hardware suppliers notify us ahead-of time when= a particular piece of hardware is about to become unavailable. At that tim= e we are usually given a choice of hardware to evaluate as replacements for= the existing EOM production-line. We're usually given at least 3-9 months prior-notice before our current pro= duction-line goes EOL. For each candidate replacement we try each FreeBSD release that we're curre= ntly using in production. If it doesn't work, we try another candidate hard= ware. If we can't seem to find a winning combo that works with our existing= -RELEASE, we then start trying newer releases until we find drivers workin= g for each/every required piece of hardware (network cards, RAID cards, ser= ial ports/cards, Adaptec SCSI cards, Fibre HBAs, etc.). When we find a rele= ase that contains the necessary drivers, we back-port. At this time, it's worth noting that we use ONLY monolithic kernels and we = deliver them via packages. When we back-port new device support, we just ro= ll a new kernel, ship it via package, pkg_add, reboot. Similarly, if the patch is in userland, we package up the replaced binaries= (produced by using the release engineering procedures documented in build(= 7) and [more importantly] release(7)). The net effect is that we run a -RELEASE with patches from either the same = -STABLE, a higher -RELEASE, higher -STABLE, or (as a last-resort) -CURRENT = or HEAD. We've been known to roll FreeBSD-4.11 kernels with bits back-porte= d from RELENG_8. So, I guess what I=E2=80=99m trying to say is that if you're going to take = your production environment extremely seriously (as though 1.5-Trillion glo= bally-economic-dollars depended on it) you-too would take a serious look at= release(7) and the Release Engineer's handbook. It really is worth maintaining your own release, taking required fixes from= -STABLE (preferred) or higher (as necessary) to satisfy your customers (wh= ich are nearly almost always going to have a different release schedule tha= n that-of any OS, be-it FreeBSD, Linux, or other distribution). > the criticality of those systems was hard to over-emphasize. In 2005 we w= orked > out we processed 1.5 trillion dollars of transactions on those systems. >=20 I'm going to have to sit down with DaveR, JPL, and others to get an updated= metric for 2011. I'd be willing to bet that we've increased transactional = load over the years (with respect to FreeBSD, we brought on one new sizable= customer since then and expanded the scope of existing FreeBSD customers t= o new overseas installations as well as several new sites in the States). > The other side of the coin is that we had the resources to have someone (= me) > tracking the branch. That person is now (me) plus I have Dave Robison (DaveR) to lean on occasio= nally (and you're always a great help, DaveR). I'd argue that it's not the man-power... it's whether management sees the i= mportance in allowing one (or two) persons to spin his/her wheels, developi= ng a laudable solution to the problem at-hand (precisely what we've done; m= itigating extra/busy work). However, sometimes you just have to take initiative. The company didn't rea= lly officially "approve" any project that involved re-architecting our inte= rnal release engineering ... I had to take it upon myself over the last 3.5= years to do said monster-undertaking (in my ``spare'' time). > I only spun a release when I thought it was a good time to do > so, but I always had a year or so advance warning of when a new release w= as > likely to be needed so I could select a good moment from over a wide rang= e. Likewise! When Julian was here, the company had the same top-executives (such as Cayf= ord), and likewise, I too have the same guidance. If/When we ever find ourselves in the boat of our deployed release not supp= orting some hardware we ask ourselves three things: 1. Can we supplant missing support by making an out-of-band purchase of old= er hardware? (e.g. an onboard network card doesn't work, so we'll just thro= w an Intel PRO/100 PCI card into one of the extra slots) 2. Can we back-port missing driver support? NOTE: I then go do research to answer yes/no. 3. How hard is it to back-port missing support if above-answer is YES? NOTE: I then look at how hard it is which takes many things into considerat= ion. 4. Is answer to above "days", "weeks", or "fat-chance"? 5. If answer to above is "days", I'm often instructed to do the back-port. 6. If answer is instead "weeks", we way our other options, including... 7. Can we "pre-ship" a newer OS having tested that it "plays-well with othe= rs" (in a heterogeneous environment)(example: shipping 8.1 workstations but= still using a 4.11 server stack because workstations require better Vid-ca= rd support but servers do not). 8. Can we find another supplier that has the ability to source older hardwa= re? 9. Failing any/all "easy" solutions, we then make a blanket statement that = "it's time to move our customers to the next release" in which we then star= t enroads to regression test our product on said newer release as all other= tricks to stay on the current release won't work. It is through the above procedure that we accommodate customers that may or= may-not have the annual budget to either: a. do a "tech refresh" and/or b. update the OS in concordance to abate both EOM and EOL timelines dictated by hardware man= ufacturers (which we can only hope to influence even with *our* sizeable pu= rchasing power; NOTE: We simply can't influence manufacturers like Google, = Microsoft, Apple, etc. can). > Also ran a layer on the top of the sources where I could add cherry-pick= ed back- > ports and changes as part of our release. >=20 Yup, we've maintained that ability to this day. It's the only thing that's = saved us. In transitioning to 8.1 we've already cherry-picked 8 patches in-= wholesale from RELENG_8. > If it came to that maybe all the people who are currently saying they nee= d better > support of the 8.x branch could get together and together, support someon= e to > do that job for them..would 1/5th of a person be too expensive for them? >=20 > if not, what is a reasonable cost? Is it worth 1/20 th of a person? >=20 An interesting thought. Open to discussion on this one (meaning: I'm willin= g to volunteer). --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 00:18:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FB71065674; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:18:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1364556480=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959148FC14; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:18:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:08:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on mail1.multiplay.co.uk X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=6.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST shortcircuit=ham autolearn=disabled version=3.2.5 Received: from r2d2 ([188.220.16.49]) by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) (MDaemon PRO v10.0.4) with ESMTP id md50017601221.msg; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:08:35 +0000 X-MDRemoteIP: 188.220.16.49 X-Return-Path: prvs=1364556480=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk Message-ID: From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Hans Petter Selasky" , References: <93F94D7970EC47D88A2DF9C7F726BF75@multiplay.co.uk> <201201172104.10435.hselasky@c2i.net> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:08:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Cc: Tom Evans , Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:18:55 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Petter Selasky" > On Tuesday 17 January 2012 20:54:51 Steven Hartland wrote: >> boot time fixes (disable memtest), > > Hi, > > Another noticeable part is that ufsread.c in boot2 uses very small block sizes > to read the file system data. If that could be fixed boot times would drop too > ! It might but not the same order of magnitude I suspect as this was like 30-60+ delay depending on memory size ;-) Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 01:11:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFB6106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:11:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C538FC17 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:11:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so756393lah.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:11:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=9E1nACbenymurQYN7/QL3FoYUboKWrgbhBag5MEkeUQ=; b=AX1C9aEzJoHYFFVQASOq7RDqHDS6LEwznrmYmhuiN5NNTZ/vcYzIIhpnsa4mwXe7/n qqBRgwUjTncrxCRk52kmmSoEHekD6wC6WtZAoJUWHjXtx/QAfZ1u8G2DB1+bC2xuIRzV pYSHnR9ZycgI3sY5/cV9YE8pRnwZZrjALJ0uU= Received: by 10.112.85.195 with SMTP id j3mr4612292lbz.59.1326849093164; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:11:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.21.168 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:11:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> From: Eitan Adler Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:11:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Igor Mozolevsky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: Ian Lepore , Andriy Gapon , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:11:35 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches > to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours > personally, but you get my gist). No other project requires a > non-committer to be so ridiculously persistent in order to get a patch > through. It takes time to review and test patches. There are a lot of people that think "it only takes 30 seconds to download the patch, apply, and commit." This is just not true. When I take PRs committers 1) Download the PR 2) Read the surrounding code sufficiently to understand what it does 3) Read the patched code to find the bug 4) Read the patch to see if it fixes the bug 5) Ensure that it is the most appropriate way to fix the bug 6) Apply the patch and test the affected issue. 7) Find the person who wrote the original code (or at least one other person) and have them review it - this person usually goes through steps 1-6 too. 8) Apply the patch to head and commit 9) Verify the changes are correct didn't cause any regressions 10) MFC to stable[789] And this assumes the patch was perfect, there really was a bug, and everyone thinks things through properly. The process take anywhere from half an hour for obvious fixes to multiple days in addition to the committer's work, school, and family obligations.. Being persistent sometimes gives the committer the motivation to go through all those steps. As a part of the "bugbusting" team I've taken quite a few bugs and been the "annoying persistent" person for other people. As a result I've closed quite a few bugs. > Such system is plainly wrong---it simply discourages people from > sending "this works for me"(TM) fixes. Yes and no. The system is bad, it shouldn't take 5 years to commit a correct patch, but at the same time "this works for me patches" still need to go through all of the above. > The committers have to realise > three things: they can and do write broken code now and then, most > people who write patches to help the fBSD along don't have the time to > become full time committers (otherwise they'd already be, right?), and > there's only so many times one is willing to bang their head against a > wall with no results---as Einstein pointed out "Insanity: doing the > same thing over and over again and expecting different results"... And we need to work to find ways to fix issues while still ensuring that the above steps are followed. > I'm not saying that responding to reasonable requests from people who > are in the process of testing and committing the patch, but expecting > the end-users to chase committers to have a fix included is plainly > wrong!.. I agree, and we need to work to find systematic solutions to correct patches waiting for someone to take a look without compromising the quality checks committers (should) do. If you have ideas to make this process easier or more efficient we are all eager to hear them. I am especially interested to know what *I* could do to help speed things along in areas I don't know well enough to commit to. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 01:38:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2576106566B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:38:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958308FC08 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:38:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa03 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0I1R4lU008435; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:38:18 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.31]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djcf0cj7-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:38:18 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:38:18 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'John Kozubik'" References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:38:42 -0800 Message-ID: <03af01ccd581$e9ef18c0$bdcd4a40$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFTuuDxM2D0gQ4oJ7TghrFqaFf0jQJO0ujSAnKeI/gBHj5gZgHiEbU2lsV35XA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_09:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: 'Garrett Cooper' , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@futurecis.com Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:38:23 -0000 Hi John, > -----Original Message----- > From: John Kozubik [mailto:john@kozubik.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:52 PM > To: Devin Teske > Cc: 'Garrett Cooper'; WBentley@futurecis.com; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle > > > Hi Devin, > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Devin Teske wrote: > > > I brought this up in last weekend's BAFUG meeting... > > > > We're _very_ interested in replicating the long-lifecycle of the > > 4-series with a newer series. But which one? > > > > Right now, we're jumping to the 8-series, but after seeing that one of > > the major focal points for 9 is McKusick's SU+J (SoftUpdates > > Journaling -- tunefs -j enable), I'm ready to say that the 9-series > > should instead be the "chosen outlier" when it comes to picking one > > single release to have an ultra-wide lifecycle. > > > > The 9-series represents the first release to integrate a journaled > > filesystem by-default into the system (aka boot) filesystem(s). We > > were pleasantly surprised to see that the default installer enabled > > SU+J by-default when choosing "guided" and "auto" for disk partitioning. > > > There's two parallel suggestions being put forth here, both of which are > interesting: > > - Allow a related party to adopt a release (as I understand it) and provide a sub- > community taht donates resources to tending and updating that release. > > - Picking a "chosen" release to really dive into, officially, and polish and extend it, > like 4. > > If I had to pick, I'd say the second one, but I'm not sure either one is the right > direction. I too am not sure. The latter (pick a "chosen" release) option seems a good route, but like you say, maybe a re-envisioning of the release procedure is what's needed for long-term. > I think a more sustainable, balanced approach that can be extended > for every release into the future would be best. > > I don't really want to see some semi-official "fork", or "extended release" - it > would duplicate a lot of existing effort as well as raise questions about how > "official" it was. Would vmware support it as a real release ? Large organizations > might disqualify it the same way they would STABLE. > > As for picking 8 or 9 to be the "chosen" exception - that would help me a lot in the > short term, but if things are being done wrong, they should be fixed in the long > run. > > I think the real choice that has to be made is "when will we halt proclaiming two > simultaneous releases as production ?" and since 9 is already here, it can't be 8/9, > it has to be 9/10. You could progress 8.x along its current trajectory, possibly > building 8.4 a year or so from now and then be done with it, and then that would > be the last short/unfocused release. > I often have to deal with "FUD" at work, especially when the developers learn that FreeBSD has, for example, released FreeBSD 9.0 somewhat indicating that "oh, no -- we're obsolete?!" In which I've always had to then explain how "FreeBSD has three versions running simultaneously at all times -- a legacy release, a stable release, and a future release," and they are happy with such an explanation. I usually then go on to explain "back in the day it was 4/5/6, and now it's 8/9/10". Naturally, this is an over-simplified view of the situation, but it sure would be a nice view if it were absolutely true. There ought to be a charter that explicitly defines the types of things you can expect from each release (regardless of which release): For example, the "legacy" release (which might as well be 8.x now) should: a. Receive all security patches until deprecated b. Receive critical bug fixes until deprecated c. Benefit from trivial hardware device additions (e.g., developer adds "0x10de" device identifier to if_bgereg.h to add new hardware support to bge(4)) Meanwhile, the "stable" release (which might as well be 9.x now) should: a. Receive all security patches b. Receive critical bug fixes c. Benefit from ALL hardware device changes except experimental ones and those that completely redesign the driver Last, the "current" release (which might as well be 10.x now) should: a. Be the landing zone for all new code, experimental or otherwise. Finally, the charter ought to also define when a "current" can become "stable" ... not define some arbitrary timeline which results in situations like that which was previously mentioned in this thread (9.0 shipped as stable release with completely broken gmultipath). > Then you postpone 10.0-RELEASE until January 2017. > > Instead of having a legacy branch and two production branches, you would have > legacy (8) production (9) and ... nothing. Or if you need to have it out there, 10 is > the development branch. > +1 > Minor releases come out 2-3 times per year, which gets you to 9.10 or 9.15 at the > end of the cycle. > Ought we to have one timeline for stable (aka production) and a different timeline for legacy? Say, cut a new release in legacy 1-2 times a year and cut a new release in production 2-3 times a year? Just an idea. > On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > OP - if you'd like to see FreeBSD's stable release schedule pushed > > forward a bit quicker then please, step up and offer to assist. No-one > > is going to say no. Everyone will appreciate the extra help. > > > I don't really know how much upheaval is implied in pushing 10.0 to 2017, > developing only one "production" release, and running 9.x up to 9.15 (or > whatever) but I can contribute USD $10k per year that this course was > followed, or $50k over five years. We can contribute some hardware, > hosting and bandwidth as well. > > Are there any others here who can chip in, or whose firms can ? Our firm has chipped in (significantly) in the past, and I'm starting to think it's 'bout time we do it again. But if we're going to do so, we would want written statements as to what we're paying for. I think it's worth opening the discussion to all potential investors to see: if money were thrown at the problem, what could be achieved? what would the charter look like? is there even enough like-minded investors that a consensus could be reached for a common goal? -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 01:42:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB2C106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:42:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7995D8FC14; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:42:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3101948pbd.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:42:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nf24LyUbqHTqZAoGHgKxON/EIRQM4Nelm9dnwHJyWfs=; b=NT++sv2nkbCuqL+oczZYGhJdXyGpKTobXHSDF+fVI8iGCJRGCL+fsPyImG9HXlozn6 vvb6lYTolS9RroyMdeZbI+VNDHSC3xCdeGUDKW6efXQG1Huo6IZGErmgnahuWcYiEo0a dScQ1MEMX/Yxnw5oxf+tkBx7J1jbZ7Qj83Xzc= Received: by 10.68.190.101 with SMTP id gp5mr39360065pbc.31.1326850954203; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:42:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:41:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:41:53 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: tjqLNeQG_j7CmpjvVk2d-iwgQu8 Message-ID: To: Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ian Lepore , Andriy Gapon , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:42:34 -0000 On 18 January 2012 01:11, Eitan Adler wrote: > It takes time to review and test patches. There are a lot of people > that think "it only takes 30 seconds to download the patch, apply, and > commit." =C2=A0This is just not true. I fully understand that and it is not what I was saying, what I was saying was about the patches that were being plainly ignored/allowed to go stale. What you said below is perfectly reasonable once a committer is actively involved in dealing with a patch, then I, and anyone else for that matter, would be very reasonably expected to be involved in the process and understands that someone else is working on the issue you've address. The problem, however, lies in the time between a patch is submitted and is "picked up", if the latter ever occurs!.. That is where the discouragement occurs. [snip] > And this assumes the patch was perfect, there really was a bug, and > everyone thinks things through properly. =C2=A0The process take anywhere > from half an hour for obvious fixes to multiple days =C2=A0in addition to > the committer's work, school, and family obligations.. I hope I've address what you say here just above :-) and wholeheartedly agree with everything else you've said, but you are addressing the problem from a different angle: nobody is ever going to disagree that _once_ someone has picked up a patch it will take them time to get it through whatever steps necessary. But, as I said above, it's getting to *this* stage that is the lengthy and a disheartening process... [snip] > If you have ideas to make this process easier or more efficient we are > all eager to hear them. I am especially interested to know what *I* > could do to help speed things along in areas I don't know well enough > to commit to. The problem, which I suspect is very difficult to overcome in what I call the "bazaar" environment, is the enforcement. One way to "encourage" people to fix their code would be to prevent them from committing to -CURRENT once they pass a certain threshold of "unattended" patches. Of course then, committers will be whinging that they'd be resigning if they can't commit to -CURRENT, but quite frankly, why should anyone have the commit privilege if they can't be bothered to address the bugs, are those people just using the FreeBSD project to boost their CV (with great powers comes great responsibility!)? -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:12:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0635106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:12:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA058FC16 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:12:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa05 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0I1Q5PR005085 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:12:07 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djp70cg8-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:12:07 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:12:05 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:12:31 -0800 Message-ID: <03b101ccd586$a31a3740$e94ea5c0$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AczVhlhJ5PizS4F0TUa+hyr3e7GDJQ== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_09:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Subject: tzsetup(8) patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:12:09 -0000 Can someone please take a look at 3 patches I've filed against tzsetup(8)? bin/164039: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/164039 "[PATCH] tzsetup(8): Don't write /var/db/zoneinfo either when "-n" is passed or when install_zoneinfo_file returns failure" bin/164041: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/164041 "[PATCH] tzsetup(8): Remove unnecessary code duplication and clean-up reinstall option" bin/164042: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/164042 "[PATCH] tzsetup(8): Fix VERBOSE to work with new UTC menu option" I have other patches that are waiting on these. -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:21:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A58C106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:21:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4258FC17 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:21:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa03 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0I1PoDo007089 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:21:18 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djcf0fdj-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:21:18 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:21:17 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:21:42 -0800 Message-ID: <03b301ccd587$eba40d00$c2ec2700$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AczVhqprBZlI1I8sTaqlQMZrH2PXfA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_09:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Subject: 14 month old regression (how?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:21:19 -0000 Looking at bin/164192... I'm left wondering to myself... How on Earth did a regression-by-typo introduced in SVN r214735 go 14 months without being noticed? Effected branches include: RELENG_9_0_RELEASE RELENG_9_0 affected for 2 months and 1 week RELENG_9 RELENG_9_0_BP affected for 3 months and 3 weeks MAIN RELENG_9_BP HEAD affected for 14 months and 2 weeks -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:27:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE63106567C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:27:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5928FC1E for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:27:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0I2RakD098308 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:27:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F162E57.5020607@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:28:39 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Saad References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:27:38 -0000 On 1/17/12 12:11 PM, Mark Saad wrote: > Here are My 2 Cents , > > 1. Support each release longer, or develop a better way to MFS ( Merge > from Stable ) bug fixes, and driver updates to RELEASE. It always > seams that there are a number of things in X-STABLE I would love to > have in X.3-RELEASE and X.4-RELEASE, and I do not want all of X-STABLE > just some new drivers and fixes . > > 2. Spell out the entire RELEASE road map at the beginning of the > release. So for 9.0-RELEASE set tentative dates for 9.1, 9.2, 9.x etc > . I think by the ".2" release of a line we should have some idea as to whether a particular lineage is going to provide a good basis for extended life. if for example we were to declare that 8 is really quite good, we might decide to declare it as having a longer life and allow 9 to die earlier as we go forward. I do understand the requirement for a stable basis for work but I can not say how many of the changes for newer hardware will get ported back. or by who. > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:28:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9266106568F for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:28:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737248FC16 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:28:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obcwo16 with SMTP id wo16so4399570obc.13 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:28:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ajhpO/Yo4cZma+oCQ1Rb7Bs0sqbfvmbPlkRV5qR/d6I=; b=MrQxaP160GEuI2oR8F3g2ralC6Ol0RAq058U4TWEUv2LyhBAXQ2z9jHXE53otmG3z7 bOWYSgBMBO9VGW+GYQbUi7i2Gt4DakMOKK1JWDGrNzg+tJB0J92CNb9TTq2ekSFXeKqz X7nFyuqGUn1QJb7CQCmpmyRyYyqA6nnHaddSo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.47.10 with SMTP id z10mr1037064obm.19.1326853730025; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.5.162 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:28:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <03b301ccd587$eba40d00$c2ec2700$@fisglobal.com> References: <03b301ccd587$eba40d00$c2ec2700$@fisglobal.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:28:49 -0800 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Devin Teske Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 14 month old regression (how?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:28:50 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > Looking at bin/164192... > > I'm left wondering to myself... > How on Earth did a regression-by-typo introduced in SVN r214735 go 14 months > without being noticed? Very carefully. I've seen it happen before on paid products (in fact I've fixed 15 year old bugs thanks to my colorized editor, and I'm sure someone's going to find bugs I've made 1, 5, 10, or 20 years in the future..).. people make mistakes -- it's a fact of life. -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:39:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD4C106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:39:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508DB8FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:39:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa02 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0I2PPp3029824; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:39:49 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.16]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djc0ggpw-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:39:49 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:39:49 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Garrett Cooper'" References: <03b301ccd587$eba40d00$c2ec2700$@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:40:13 -0800 Message-ID: <03b501ccd58a$81f211b0$85d63510$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQNXDRfHss6TvyDxsi9N5T/yyn3P/wIcRzglkuwWPtA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_09:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: 14 month old regression (how?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:39:50 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Garrett Cooper [mailto:yanegomi@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:29 PM > To: Devin Teske > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: 14 month old regression (how?) > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Devin Teske > wrote: > > Looking at bin/164192... > > > > I'm left wondering to myself... > > How on Earth did a regression-by-typo introduced in SVN r214735 go 14 > > months without being noticed? > > Very carefully. I've seen it happen before on paid products (in fact I've fixed 15 > year old bugs thanks to my colorized editor, and I'm sure someone's going to find > bugs I've made 1, 5, 10, or 20 years in the future..).. people make mistakes -- it's a > fact of life. > -Garrett I found the reason why this typo wasn't noticed. Appears that "${WPA_DISTDIR}/src/crypto" is already being declared one-level-up in the following file: src/usr.sbin/wpa/Makefile.inc Otherwise, buildworld would have failed in src/usr.sbin/wpa/wpa_supplicant complaining about undefined references while linking wpa_supplicant. The patch in bin/164192 still stands, but I'm going to amend the PR to explain why this typo went unnoticed for 14 months. -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. 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From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:40:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED841065675 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:40:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DC98FC1F for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:40:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0I2em7x098357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F16316F.507@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:41:51 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Lepore References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> In-Reply-To: <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Andriy Gapon Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:40:53 -0000 On 1/17/12 3:36 PM, Ian Lepore wrote: > On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 01:17 +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> on 17/01/2012 23:46 Ian Lepore said the following: >>> Now, before we're even really completely up and running on 8.2 at work, >>> 9.0 hits the street, and developers have moved on to working in the 10.0 >>> world. What are the chances that any of the patches I've submitted for >>> bugs we fixed in 8.x are ever going to get commited now that 8 is well >>> on its way to becoming ancient history in developers' minds? >> My opinion is that this will have more to do with your approach to pushing the >> patches (and your persistence) rather than with anything else. As long as >> stable/8 is still a supported branch or the bugs are reproducible in any of the >> supported branches. > Well I submitted a sort of random sample of the patches we're > maintaining at work, 11 of them as formal PRs and 2 posted to the lists > here recently. So far two have been committed (the most important one > and the most trivial one, oddly enough). I'm not sure just how pushy > one is supposed to be, I don't want to be a jerk. Not to mention that I > wouldn't know who to push. That's actually why I'm now being active on > the mailing lists, I figured maybe patches will be more accepted from > someone the commiters know rather than just as code out of the blue > attached to a PR. you are supposed to be as pushy as you need to be.. If you really want your patches in I'd suggest teh following method: 1/ post a summary email explaining all teh bugs and patches 2/ see if anyone takes them up 3/ for the remaining problems, find the names of developers who have committed to that code and contact them asking for their assistance. 4/ report back here ;-) > I think it would be great if there were some developers (a team, maybe > something not quite that formal) who concentrated on maintenance of > older code for the user base who needs it. I'd be happy to contribute > to that effort, both on my own time, and I have a commitment from > management at work to allow me a certain amount of billable work hours > to interface with the FreeBSD community, especially in terms of getting > our work contributed back to the project (both to help the project, and > to help us upgrade more easily in the future). > > I have no idea if there are enough developers who'd be interested in > such a concept to make it work, co-op or otherwise. But I like the fact > that users and developers are talking about their various needs and > concerns without any degeneration into flame wars. It's cool that most > of the focus here is centered on how to make things better for everyone. > > -- Ian > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:48:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3C01065672; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:48:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E7D8FC18; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:48:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0I2lxQL098386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:48:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:49:02 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tom Evans , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , Hugo Silva Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:48:05 -0000 On 1/17/12 2:41 PM, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:57:19PM +0000 I heard the voice of > Hugo Silva, and lo! it spake thus: >> Come to think about it, those days are pretty much gone since 4.x >> (incidentally, many of us who've stuck with FreeBSD for this long >> think of 4.x as an epic series). > Having been a FreeBSD user for a very long time, I don't think of 4.x > as epic. I think of 5.x as a clusterf...un. 4.x didn't last such a > long time because everyone thought it was awesome, it was because the > next version was still so broken it was the only thing we had to > release. > 5 was not out on a limb for so long because it was a clusterfun, it was out there because it was a rework of how almost everything in the kernel worked. Everything written since 1978 had to be rewritten to some extent. > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:48:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB7D1065798 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:48:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B338FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:48:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0675F37B607; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:48:16 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id DA9D7178BE; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:48:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:48:14 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Igor Mozolevsky Message-ID: <20120118024814.GF509@over-yonder.net> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Eitan Adler , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Andriy Gapon , Ian Lepore Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:48:16 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 01:41:53AM +0000 I heard the voice of Igor Mozolevsky, and lo! it spake thus: > > The problem, however, lies in the time between a patch is submitted > and is "picked up", if the latter ever occurs!.. That is where the > discouragement occurs. Quite. For instance, we're now well past the 3 year mark since I submitted docs/127908, which fixes 1 sentence in a manpage. So far, I can't see that anybody but me has ever looked at it. That doesn't serve to encourage me to nibble at anything substantial. (In fairness, I should note that I also maintain several ports, and so submit a steady trickle of PR's there. Almost none of them take more than a week from submission to application and closing, and it's fairly common for it to be less than 24 hours. I know the ports team carries a huge load with such things, but they're carrying it well.) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 02:56:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9F41065673; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:56:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33B08FC08; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:56:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0I2ui2J098421 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F16352B.3020008@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:57:47 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:56:47 -0000 On 1/17/12 3:50 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > First, let's do away with the whole, "If you step up to help, your help > will be accepted with open arms" myth. That's only true if the project > leadership agrees with your goals. "leadership" doesn't really control development here. action does. > We also need to take a step back and ask if throwing more person-hours > at the problem is the right solution, or if redesigning the system to > better meet the needs of the users *as a first step* is the right answer? > careful, you are starting to sound reasonable there.. > On 01/17/2012 15:01, Adrian Chadd wrote: >> .. I'm replying to the OP because honestly, this thread has gotten a >> bit derailed. >> >> If you'd like to see: >> >> ... more frequent releases? then please step up and help with all the >> infrastructure needed to roll out test releases, including building >> _all_ the ports. A lot of people keep forgetting that a "release" is >> "build all the ports for all the supported platforms". > Does it need to be? I've been pushing a long time now to have a branched > ports tree. If we have a "stable" version of the ports where only > known-good changes are promoted then that frees us up quite a bit to > redefine what a "release" is. that's another 'man hours' problem (branched ports) >> ... longer lifecycle? Then please step up and contribute patches for >> features for your favourite branch. As a developer doing this in my >> spare time I'm only really working on new features on -HEAD and maybe >> backporting fixes to 9.x. What _I_ would like is someone to take on >> the task of testing and backporting net80211/ath fixes to 8.x and 7.x. > So you want to do all the fun stuff, and have someone else do your scut > work? Good luck with that. :) Maybe what we need to do is redefine what > it means to be a FreeBSD committer. "From now on, your commit bit comes > with XYZ privileges, but also ABC responsibilities." Sure, we'd lose > some people, but what would we gain? > > Also, your premise is flawed. We (speaking generally) suck at supporting > more than one -stable branch. We *really* suck at supporting three. Six > months ago when the machinery was just beginning to spin up for > 9.0-RELEASE I tried to get the PTB to reconsider. I was told that my > concerns were invalid because it was basically ready to go as is. > > The plan I laid out at the time was to have no more than 2 stable > branches extant at any given time. Lengthen the periods where each > stable branch is supported, and terminate the oldest one when the newest > one is released. > I certainly think 9.0 was premature.. 8.x just started.. this should have been 8.3. >> ... longer branch lifecycle? Same as above. None of the developers are >> going to reject bugfixes and backported drivers to a legacy, stable >> branch. We may be a bit against the idea of porting entire new >> subsystems to legacy, stable branches - but if there's a good enough >> reason _and_ it's been tested _and_ there's a need for it - _I_ >> wouldn't say no. > But committers already fail to MFC *existing* bug fixes to stable > branches (even ones they generated). This is especially true for the > older branches. So how is the idea of users generating more new bug > fixes going to help? usually it's because they just forgot.. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 03:05:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5BB1065674 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:05:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136E08FC16 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 552D637B47E; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:05:34 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 565A5177BF; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:05:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:05:32 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:05:35 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:49:02PM -0800 I heard the voice of Julian Elischer, and lo! it spake thus: > > 5 was not out on a limb for so long because it was a clusterfun, it > was out there because it was a rework of how almost everything in > the kernel worked. I'm not saying it was a cluster because it was a huge amount of very deep work; it's because that huge amount of very deep work completely gated our next release. Now, sure, changing external circumstances caught us with our pants down, and the tools we were using (like CVS) made it hard to do anything else. But that just means there were good reasons why it happened; doesn't make it less clusterfull :) The two circumstances (giant rework, and long period between major releases) are duals of each other. If we chop off giant piles of stuff to do for FreeBSD-next, it's going to take a very long time. And if we instead just set very long times (Jan 2017 for 10?! Insanity!) for -next, we're going to end up with giant reworks and huge differences. And _both_ faces are very bad. The one means we wait forever for any new work, and the other means that it takes enormous amounts of work as a user to transistion across the barrier. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 03:13:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0759106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:13:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC438FC13; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:13:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa03 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0I2PM6p000892; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:13:09 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.16]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djcf0jru-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:13:09 -0600 Received: from [10.77.172.196] (10.14.152.28) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:13:04 -0600 References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8C148) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8C148) From: Devin Teske Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:12:50 -0800 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.28] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_09:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: "" Subject: * Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:13:11 -0000 On Jan 17, 2012, at 7:05 PM, "Matthew D. Fuller" = wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:49:02PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Julian Elischer, and lo! it spake thus: >>=20 >> 5 was not out on a limb for so long because it was a clusterfun, it >> was out there because it was a rework of how almost everything in >> the kernel worked. >=20 > I'm not saying it was a cluster because it was a huge amount of very > deep work; it's because that huge amount of very deep work completely > gated our next release. Now, sure, changing external circumstances > caught us with our pants down, and the tools we were using (like CVS) > made it hard to do anything else. But that just means there were > good reasons why it happened; doesn't make it less clusterfull :) >=20 >=20 > The two circumstances (giant rework, and long period between major > releases) are duals of each other. If we chop off giant piles of > stuff to do for FreeBSD-next, it's going to take a very long time. > And if we instead just set very long times (Jan 2017 for 10?! > Insanity!) for -next, we're going to end up with giant reworks and > huge differences. >=20 > And _both_ faces are very bad. The one means we wait forever for any > new work, and the other means that it takes enormous amounts of work > as a user to transistion across the barrier. >=20 We could adopt a cycle similar to the Linux Kernel... Odd numbered releases are "experimental" while even numbered releases are "= stable" (ducks for flying fruit) _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 03:19:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345A8106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:19:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C338FC16 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:19:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0I3JC45098521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:19:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F163A6F.8020804@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:20:15 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" , "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: * Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:19:17 -0000 On 1/17/12 7:12 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > > On Jan 17, 2012, at 7:05 PM, "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:49:02PM -0800 I heard the voice of >> Julian Elischer, and lo! it spake thus: >>> 5 was not out on a limb for so long because it was a clusterfun, it >>> was out there because it was a rework of how almost everything in >>> the kernel worked. >> I'm not saying it was a cluster because it was a huge amount of very >> deep work; it's because that huge amount of very deep work completely >> gated our next release. Now, sure, changing external circumstances >> caught us with our pants down, and the tools we were using (like CVS) >> made it hard to do anything else. But that just means there were >> good reasons why it happened; doesn't make it less clusterfull :) >> >> >> The two circumstances (giant rework, and long period between major >> releases) are duals of each other. If we chop off giant piles of >> stuff to do for FreeBSD-next, it's going to take a very long time. >> And if we instead just set very long times (Jan 2017 for 10?! >> Insanity!) for -next, we're going to end up with giant reworks and >> huge differences. >> >> And _both_ faces are very bad. The one means we wait forever for any >> new work, and the other means that it takes enormous amounts of work >> as a user to transistion across the barrier. >> the trouble with 5 was that it had to be all-or-nothing. there is no such thing as a partly SMP system. (well, not one that you'd want to run). the size of the "giant pile of stuff" was not of our choosing. > We could adopt a cycle similar to the Linux Kernel... > > Odd numbered releases are "experimental" while even numbered releases are "stable" > > (ducks for flying fruit) > > _____________ > The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 04:13:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264691065670 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:13:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from atom@smasher.org) Received: from atom.smasher.org (atom.smasher.org [69.55.237.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCF5A8FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:13:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 35268 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jan 2012 21:06:53 -0000 X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (33% of Full) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:07:56 +1300 (NZDT) From: Atom Smasher To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> OpenPGP: id=0xB88D52E4D9F57808; algo=1 (RSA); size=4096; url=http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:13:36 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Mark Felder wrote: > To be fair, it could be worse -- OpenBSD secretly wants you to run > snapshots and CURRENT as the RELEASEs are mostly unmaintained outside of > the most extreme security concerns. Even the packages are kept at the > exact version of the time of release. ============= and how many corps are running openBSD? talk about an OS that seems to exist only as a playground for its developers... -- ...atom ________________________ http://atom.smasher.org/ 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "All censorships exist to prevent anyone from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions. All progress is initiated by challenging current conceptions, and executed by supplanting existing institutions. Consequently, the first condition of progress is the removal of censorships." -- George Bernard Shaw From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 04:16:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F82106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from richo@psych0tik.net) Received: from bedford.accountservergroup.com (bedford.accountservergroup.com [50.22.11.19]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E108FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boxand.lnk.telstra.net ([203.45.130.125] helo=richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au) by bedford.accountservergroup.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RnMwQ-0005yu-Nq; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:16:07 -0600 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:16:12 +1100 From: richo To: Atom Smasher Message-ID: <20120118041612.GF29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E7i4zwmWs5DOuDSH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://natalya.psych0tik.net/~richo/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - bedford.accountservergroup.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - psych0tik.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:08 -0000 --E7i4zwmWs5DOuDSH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline On 18/01/12 10:07 +1300, Atom Smasher wrote: >On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Mark Felder wrote: > >>To be fair, it could be worse -- OpenBSD secretly wants you to run >>snapshots and CURRENT as the RELEASEs are mostly unmaintained >>outside of the most extreme security concerns. Even the packages >>are kept at the exact version of the time of release. >============= > >and how many corps are running openBSD? talk about an OS that seems >to exist only as a playground for its developers... > This is more or less like Debian in regards to their packaging. Admittedly, OpenBSD is way up there on the paranoia scale, but I know of plenty of big companies running OpenBSD on large scale routing infrastructure. -- richo || Today's excuse: Your Pentium has a heating problem - try cooling it with ice cold water.(Do not turn off your computer, you do not want to cool down the Pentium Chip while he isn't working, do you?) http://blog.psych0tik.net --E7i4zwmWs5DOuDSH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPFkeMAAoJEIKiWz6J5yQVNjoH/jSQz+WZuqmoC3shojlqwLJX g8JI7pgIcrziPTXbsESPr9cz3r8qFoNrCPkuCWrkti1XLZAPnRMR+a8psr1PQFCq pKB9HMQwCNuOnmHTEPK3SDQPBFzbOaUR7OH4QDcr54LpZ/R0pFMaRkRP/J2/hzv5 Tequ/mdC7Z79jeVXgNGfGaYDaiExTn9NRvQ1mNF3BDR9ZasMxjsMq/y2W08NqGSf ko8VAki8e7SgtUDR0d04qRtyDAj2QcGc0mkymWzcHUK7rk52R7Td8rVTIzVa+gee ujmSlS6eC+kQomI/qTLk28N6i0SUGhREAinIuLWZ4ugK3dAMTpf1bexh/TJqge8= =xhXt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E7i4zwmWs5DOuDSH-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 04:16:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA86106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@feld.me) Received: from mwi1.coffeenet.org (unknown [IPv6:2607:f4e0:100:300::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35BC8FC21 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:35 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=feld.me; s=blargle; h=In-Reply-To:Message-Id:From:Mime-Version:Date:References:Subject:To:Content-Type; bh=mvals/NszlKgx/aFOr+9XWw0Jo//k6jO2zIJqdrHP54=; b=cUSoaHaVktix822RsU+hSPFwToiYgCXmNe0D2qC9ZDfuBb1dZIuWEwQ0rdHHkBA8zM7aEN2+cuQOJyg19jbSCIB+aKWB5qOO8OyDam++LG1uSl6S36YpdXxLau/xmT4T; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mwi1.coffeenet.org) by mwi1.coffeenet.org with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1RnMws-000BdX-JN for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:16:35 -0600 Received: from feld@feld.me by mwi1.coffeenet.org (Archiveopteryx 3.1.4) with esmtpsa id 1326860187-2798-2797/5/7; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:27 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <4F15B1AA.4020400@my.gd> <4F15C520.6090200@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:16:25 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Felder Message-Id: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.60 (Win32) X-SA-Score: -1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:16:35 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:07:56 -0600, Atom Smasher wrote: > and how many corps are running openBSD? Works amazingly well as an edge router. You get pf, openbgpd, openspfd.... much higher performance that 50K cisco gear. The bugs we've hit have been fixed promptly as well. Pretty decent little setup for a budget. But yeah, not many do what we do. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 04:51:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41CC1065672; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:51:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9508FC17; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:51:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F42B37B49B; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:51:13 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 578D0177CD; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:51:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:51:12 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <20120118045112.GH509@over-yonder.net> References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> <4F163A6F.8020804@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F163A6F.8020804@freebsd.org> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Devin Teske Subject: Re: * Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 04:51:15 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 07:20:15PM -0800 I heard the voice of Julian Elischer, and lo! it spake thus: > > the trouble with 5 was that it had to be all-or-nothing. > > [...] > > the size of the "giant pile of stuff" was not of our choosing. As may be, it's beside my point. Whether due to malice, incompetence, or the unalterable ways of the universe, 5 spent something approaching forever "not ready to release", and depending on who you ask, kept that status until it became known as "6.0". And that, not "4 is awesome", is the principal reason 4 kept chugging so long. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 05:09:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE0C106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:09:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 172-17-198-245.globalsuite.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B6A6152245; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:09:18 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F1653FD.5050503@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:09:17 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> <4F163A6F.8020804@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <4F163A6F.8020804@freebsd.org> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" , Devin Teske , "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: * Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:09:19 -0000 On 01/17/2012 19:20, Julian Elischer wrote: > the trouble with 5 was that it had to be all-or-nothing. > > there is no such thing as a partly SMP system. (well, not one that you'd > want to run). > > the size of the "giant pile of stuff" was not of our choosing. ... again, with all due respect to those who worked so hard to get 5.0 out the door ... That's not quite true. The original goal for 5.0 was to completely remove the Giant lock (and do other cool SMP-related stuff). Eventually it was realized that this was too big a goal to fully accomplish in 5.0 (albeit too late in the process) and the goal was changed to do the basic framework for the new SMP model; and lay the groundwork for "some things run under Giant for now, and we'll remove it from them ASAP." That actually turned out to last through 6, making 7 the realization of what 5.0 was supposed to be. So what we need to do is to learn from the mistakes that were made, and figure out how we can make *reasonable* plans for both new features, and the framework for the future development that we want; without making the "all or nothing" mistake again. Doug -- It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short. Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 07:41:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FAA1065672 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:41:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rik@inse.ru) Received: from ns.rikbsd.org (ns.rikbsd.org [95.143.215.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B1E8FC14 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:41:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (wn.rikbsd.org [192.168.1.254]) by ns.rikbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 15A2B5CE1A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:40:30 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F152627.3070004@inse.ru> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:41:27 +0400 From: Roman Kurakin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20111109) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <4F15C48F.7020302@barafranca.com> <20120117224123.GC509@over-yonder.net> <4F16331E.4000702@freebsd.org> <20120118030532.GG509@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" , "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: * Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:41:31 -0000 Devin Teske wrote: > [...] > We could adopt a cycle similar to the Linux Kernel... > > Odd numbered releases are "experimental" while even numbered releases are "stable" > I do not know the current state things in Linux kernel, but as far as I know 2.6 branch was not "stable". It was branch with a lot of experimental code and with a lot of API change. rik > (ducks for flying fruit) > > _____________ > The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 09:25:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E29B106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:25:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03898FC08 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:25:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id LAA23465; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:25:32 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnRls-0008XU-Bc; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:25:32 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:25:30 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Mozolevsky References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:25:47 -0000 on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: > Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches > to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours > personally, but you get my gist). Let me pretend that I don't get it. It is as much your code as it is mine if you are a user of FreeBSD. I just happen to have a commit bit at this point in time. > No other project requires a > non-committer to be so ridiculously persistent in order to get a patch > through. There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. Maybe less for any given particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. Need I continue? P.S. Using GNATS for the PR database doesn't help either, in some technical ways. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 09:38:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3F51065672 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:38:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A4A8FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:38:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id LAA24029; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:38:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnRyN-0008Xu-Ec; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:38:27 +0200 Message-ID: <4F169312.5040006@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:38:26 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:38:33 -0000 on 18/01/2012 01:09 Devin Teske said the following: > I'm ready to say that the 9-series should instead be the "chosen > outlier" when it comes to picking one single release to have an ultra-wide > lifecycle. But how can you say that without knowing what will (can) come in 10. Maybe it will have something that would be a complete re-write, but something that you would super-want. IMO, it's the whole purpose of our present stable branches policy to let users try/test/use new/advanced features sooner, all while having a choice. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 10:35:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA41106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:35:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB6B8FC14 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:35:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id MAA25905; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:35:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnSrK-0008a4-FT; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:35:14 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16A060.1090708@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:35:12 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kozubik , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:35:23 -0000 on 17/01/2012 00:28 John Kozubik said the following: > FreeBSD is becoming an operating system by, and for, FreeBSD developers Just want to express my _personal_ opinion on this statement. I think that the proper tense for the statement would perfect - "has become". And I think that that is inevitable at present, because the FreeBSD project is a purely community driven/developed project. A project by the community. And it's natural that it has become a project for the community. The community of the project's developers. Let's see. The project has no management. There is no hierarchy of reporting. There are no assignments. No monetary leverage. No structure. No single vision and will. Let's omit a discussion of a possibility of a project "by users". Instead let's try to see how projects perceived to be "for users" typically work. My personal observation is that those projects are always commercial (which can be in a variety of ways). That is, they are "for users", because they look to make some money from their user base. Either via direct sales, or via support contracts, or via sales of related products and services, or via monetary deals with other corporations, or via voluntary donations from users and/or corporate sponsorship, or a combination. And those projects internally are also based on money. They are corporations: they have management, they have hierarchy, they have assignments, they have plans, they have salaries, they QA teams, etc. Take for a popular example of Linux. How much is for users the kernel.org? Compare it to the most popular distributions which produce the original products like Red Hat and Ubuntu. Debian... to me it seems to be more of a "for developers" thing, not unlike FreeBSD, but with more man-power. The closest to a corporation that there is now for FreeBSD is the FreeBSD Foundation. But it plays a very different role - although it depends on the donations, it doesn't make any product. It doesn't direct the FreeBSD project, it helps it. I personally do not see a way to make a volunteer project to be for users as opposed to being for the said volunteers/community. I do not have any advice for the users here except either becoming an influential part of the community or getting a deal with a FreeBSD vendor. It would be cool if the project had enough users to make a commercial FreeBSD-oriented "for users" entity viable. Perhaps iXsystems is already it. P.S. I've just learned a new "word", from the Debian people - "Do-o-cracy" as in "the doer decides". Seeing some references to a mythical "FreeBSD leadership" in this thread I couldn't resist a temptation to mention this word. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 10:44:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F03D106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:44:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2FD8FC13; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:44:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8839346B06; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:44:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:44:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Julian Elischer In-Reply-To: <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , WBentley@FutureCIS.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:44:29 -0000 On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 1/16/12 3:32 PM, William Bentley wrote: >> I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. Thank >> you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the only one >> who felt this way. > [...] > >> We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am all in >> favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and proper life >> cycle management. >> >> Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among the >> minority? > > It pretty much boils down to one thing.. man power.. I disagree. Resourcing is an issue, but it is not *the* issue. The real issue here is a failure by the release engineering team (which includes me) to concurrently perform major and minor releases. Given that minor releases run like clockwork in most cases, this is disappointing. In the past, there have been a lot of good technical and structural obstacles to trying to do clockwork releases for both major and minor releases: - Tight synchronisation of the ports and base release schedule means that the base release schedule limits ports productivity. - Long freezes forced on us by poor revision control support for branching. None of these really apply any longer -- and in as much as they do, they should be addressed. In particular, I think there's a growing feeling that ports should be conducting its own releases out of lockstep with the base tree, producing package sets as a primary product at regular intervals regardless of the base release schedule. Likewise, long freezes enforced by expensive branching operation in CVS no longer apply due to use of Subversion -- it's not perfect, but it's workable. There's no way to satisfy everyone with any particular maintenance schedule and release cycle. However, it seems clear that the current model with minor releases spaced at a year is satisfying no one. It's easy to point at a developer<->user divide, but I think that misses the point: most developers are users. A big gap between development branch and shipped features hurts the commercial users of FreeBSD that pay for so much of its development, since it forces them to support diverging local development and shipping products -- ISPs, etc. There is no incentive for year-long gaps in minor releases. My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say structural -- problem. Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be forcing out minor releases, which are morally similar to "service packs" in the vocabulary of other vendors: device driver improvements, new CPU support, steady of conservative feature development, etc, required to keep older major releases viable on contemporary hardware and with contemporary applications. One known problem is using a single "head" release engineer in steering all releases. I think this is a mistake, as it makes the whole project's release schedule subject to individual unavailability, burnout, etc, as well as increasing the risks associated with low bus factor. I'd like to see us move to a model where new release engineers are mentored in from the developer community for point releases, ensuring that we increase our expertise, share knowledge about release engineering in the broader community, and get new eyes on the process which can lead more readily to process improvements. The role of the "head" release engineer shouldn't be hands-on prodution of every release, but rather, steering of the overall team. I'd like to see this begin with 8.3, drawing a per-release lead from the developer community, and continue with a fixed schedule release of 8.4. Yes, more staffing is needed, but first, what is needed is an improvement in model. On a related note, the security team owns the "freebsd-update" mechanism, largely for historical reasons (Colin wrote it), but this is actually a bit backwards from how you would expect things to run, as we now use freebsd-update for upgrades, which are almost never engineered by the security team. Not sure what the fix is there, but it seems related -- perhaps what is really called for is breaking out our .0 release engineering entirely from .x engineering, with freebsd-update being in the latter. Robert From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 10:55:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB677106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:55:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F468FC16; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:55:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14so337861dad.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:55:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=tjmhkqMBsJAd+IpHRrq37yEgnEe5VGIqUuQ2DYhVcOI=; b=IVtbsvvOFwD/LELeFoG2tM2GwuWLqp8bOuEvkWNzxw5ovd7zLwepAVfMCOxeFJ8iMv Y8JqOW4+fpgoDvhClllCBT44WXYTe1ZAWFgT4RwlL0V2ozK+BY+lWSew2fJfTrEXa/1w 6Eh16SULopkTyqgy7YcXrX/hkAIc6LlBXYW5Q= Received: by 10.68.115.44 with SMTP id jl12mr42807213pbb.14.1326884118126; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:55:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:54:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:54:35 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: m_NugLzQNVdgGUhQdcrw2uddbe8 Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:55:19 -0000 On 18 January 2012 09:25, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: >> Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches >> to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours >> personally, but you get my gist). > > Let me pretend that I don't get it. =C2=A0It is as much your code as it i= s mine if > you are a user of FreeBSD. =C2=A0I just happen to have a commit bit at th= is point in > time. Actually that is not true at all, it is in no way "my" code because there is absolutely nothing I can do to change it (evidently, even if I do submit patches ;-) )---I'm, at best, an involved bystander!.. >> No other project requires a >> non-committer to be so ridiculously persistent in order to get a patch >> through. > > There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. > There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. =C2=A0Maybe les= s for any > given particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). > And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. > Need I continue? Is that because there are so many bugs that need fixing or is it because PRs get ignored/become staled? From the preceding discussion it appears to be more of the latter than the former. While I appreciate the excitement in churning out new "edge" code, pretending that old bugs do not exist will not simply make them go away... In fact, given the large number of PRs (and thus presumably ones containing patches) what are the chances that some devs are trying to reinvent the wheel and write a fix that is already contained within the PR system? Equally, there's probably a large number of PRs that are simply not relevant any more... Throwing toys out of the pram because there's just "too much" stuff to do is really not the answer I'm afraid... -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 10:58:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332A41065689; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:58:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140078FC08; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:58:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id MAA26277; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:58:02 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnTDO-0008ar-5I; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:58:02 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:58:00 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, WBentley@FutureCIS.com, Julian Elischer , William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:58:06 -0000 on 18/01/2012 12:44 Robert Watson said the following: > My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say structural -- > problem. Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be forcing out minor releases, > which are morally similar to "service packs" in the vocabulary of other vendors: > device driver improvements, new CPU support, steady of conservative feature > development, etc, required to keep older major releases viable on contemporary > hardware and with contemporary applications. One known problem is using a > single "head" release engineer in steering all releases. I think this is a > mistake, as it makes the whole project's release schedule subject to individual > unavailability, burnout, etc, as well as increasing the risks associated with > low bus factor. I'd like to see us move to a model where new release engineers > are mentored in from the developer community for point releases, ensuring that > we increase our expertise, share knowledge about release engineering in the > broader community, and get new eyes on the process which can lead more readily > to process improvements. The role of the "head" release engineer shouldn't be > hands-on prodution of every release, but rather, steering of the overall team. > > I'd like to see this begin with 8.3, drawing a per-release lead from the > developer community, and continue with a fixed schedule release of 8.4. Yes, > more staffing is needed, but first, what is needed is an improvement in model. Robert, I think that in addition to what you suggest above it would also be useful to have some sort of branch meisters. The current model when every developer decides whether and when and where to do an MFC does not seem to be the proper one. Developers often forget to do an MFC. Or decide against an MFC when there is no reason to do so. Or sometimes do an MFC where the stable branch users would rather prefer that it is not done. There needs to be someone who "owns" a branch and who want to make it perfect. Someone who could request an MFC (or even do it himself) and someone who could reject an MFC. Likely this could be the same person who then cuts a release from the branch. IMO. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:08:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F6F106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:08:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432DD8FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:08:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id NAA26637; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:08:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnTNl-0008bS-C8; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:08:45 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16A83C.5070204@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:08:44 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Mozolevsky References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:08:54 -0000 on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: > On 18 January 2012 09:25, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: >>> Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches >>> to be submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours >>> personally, but you get my gist). >> >> Let me pretend that I don't get it. It is as much your code as it is mine if >> you are a user of FreeBSD. I just happen to have a commit bit at this point in >> time. > > Actually that is not true at all, it is in no way "my" code because > there is absolutely nothing I can do to change it (evidently, even if > I do submit patches ;-) )---I'm, at best, an involved bystander!.. In a philosophical sense you are what you chose to be. If you really want to change the code you can make it happen. Fork being an ultimate option, but there are many less dramatic ways. >>> No other project requires a >>> non-committer to be so ridiculously persistent in order to get a patch >>> through. >> >> There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. >> There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. Maybe less for any >> given particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). >> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. >> Need I continue? > > Is that because there are so many bugs that need fixing or is it > because PRs get ignored/become staled? Sorry for saying the obvious, but it is because the PRs are fixed at slower rate than they are opened. > From the preceding discussion > it appears to be more of the latter than the former. Impressions can be deceiving. Honestly, do you believe that all committers are willfully ignoring the PRs just to cause pain to the users? Or do you consider a possibility that there is an objective reason why the things are the way they are? > While I > appreciate the excitement in churning out new "edge" code, pretending > that old bugs do not exist will not simply make them go away... Nobody pretends that. > In > fact, given the large number of PRs (and thus presumably ones > containing patches) what are the chances that some devs are trying to > reinvent the wheel and write a fix that is already contained within > the PR system? That does happen from time to time. > Equally, there's probably a large number of PRs that > are simply not relevant any more... Definitely. > Throwing toys out of the pram > because there's just "too much" stuff to do is really not the answer > I'm afraid... So what's your suggestion? But, please, nothing involving other people spontaneously starting to do what you believe to be the right thing. BTW, there is also a gnats only commit bit. And you can post followups to the PRs even without a commit bit. Any work would be appreciated. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:11:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F27106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:11:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF8A8FC08 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:11:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id NAA26699; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:11:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnTPy-0008bY-PD; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:11:02 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16A8C6.9070709@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:11:02 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:11:09 -0000 on 18/01/2012 12:47 Poul-Henning Kamp said the following: > > FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the community > and there is no way it can be any other way. Well, reading this http://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD-ng it seems that in the past there was a "for users" component related to FreeBSD release process. > (You can consider this a law of nature as far as voluntary organizations > of intelligent beings governed by the principle of self-interest.) > > If FreeBSD does not do what you want it to do, there is only one thing > you can do: Change the composition of the community so more members > share your interest and care for your problems. > > Traditionally unsuccessful ways of getting FreeBSD to do what you want: > > Kvetch > Complain > Whine > Argue that "Somebody should..." > Asking "What is core doing about..." > Threathen to use a competing operating system > Threathen to use a more appropriate operating system. > Threathen to write your own operating system. > Declare "FreeBSD is dying because I no longer use it" > > Traditionally successful ways of getting FreeBSD to do what you want: > > Join the community and do it yourself > Brib^H^H^H^HDonate cool hardware to community members > Brib^H^H^H^HPay cool cash to community members > Employ community members > Employ people to become community members > > Ohh, and: > > Shut up and code > +500. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:32:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A711065670; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:32:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DAB8FC13; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:32:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D9CB46B09; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:32:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:32:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Andriy Gapon In-Reply-To: <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Ian Lepore , Igor Mozolevsky , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:32:19 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/01/2012 02:16 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: >> Seriously, WTF is the point of having a PR system that allows patches to be >> submitted??! When I submit a patch I fix *your* code (not yours personally, >> but you get my gist). > > Let me pretend that I don't get it. It is as much your code as it is mine > if you are a user of FreeBSD. I just happen to have a commit bit at this > point in time. > >> No other project requires a non-committer to be so ridiculously persistent >> in order to get a patch through. > > There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. There are > only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. Maybe less for any given > particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). And dealing with > PRs is not always exciting. Need I continue? > > P.S. Using GNATS for the PR database doesn't help either, in some technical > ways. The structural problem around the PR system for the base system is that there isn't a whole lot of incentive for most developers to use it. I think we can reasonably categorise developers into three classes -- some move between or span them, of course: (1) Volunteers. Due to childhood trauma, they have a desperate urge to write operating systems. Not much incentive to do PRs here, as most refer to versions of FreeBSD before their time, aren't great characterisations, rarely come with patches, and when they do, the patches are out of date, don't apply, have the wrong style, solve the wrong problem, etc. A sweeping generalisation, but you see what I mean. The only exceptions here are our dedicated team of bugmeisters, who get enourmous respect from me, but they are a tiny minority. (2) Employees. They work at a company using FreeBSD as a product, and effectively deliver their own CompanyBSD as a further product to their own internal customers -- to be put on a web service frontline, to ship as the foundation of an appliance, etc. The key phrase here is "internal customers" -- they have their own bug report database, which they respond to in a timely way due to the incentives of the workplace, but also because they are relevant bug reports for their product goals. (3) Authors of upstream code. They don't even work on FreeBSD, but their code ends up in FreeBSD, so they also have their own bug report databases, fix bugs, and eventually the fixes trickle into FreeBSD. With the above, the incentives to handle PRs are very weak -- and it's compounded by gnats being terrible for both submitters and handlers of bug reports. Contrast this with ports, where the PR database is a key part of the workflow. However, and I am being entirely honest when I say this: FreeBSD works anyway. So somehow, we end up with a pretty good OS despite largely ignoring our bug report database. Why? Well, for (1) it's because volunteers have a strong sense of ownership of the code they've written and care about, (2) there's a significant internal QA and bug management effort at downstream companies from FreeBSD, whose improvements are frequently upstreamed by committers on staff, and (3) occurs independently of bugs in our bug report database. Don't get me wrong: it's a problem that the PR database goes so unloved. But it's a symptom of the construction of *extremely large* volunteer projects in which the incentives are not aligned for dealing with PRs most of the time. If you want to see something similarly sad, try counting dropped patches on the linux-kernel list. Someone once ported the entire FreeBSD kernel audit framework and OpenBSM to Linux, posted on the list saying "here are my patches", never heard anything back, and went away. You can moralise in various ways and for various parties in that relationship, but at heart, that's pretty similar to a lot of the patches in the PR database; you'll find similar stuff in every open source project of scale. I submitted patches to fix several bugs in KDE a decade or so ago .. after five years, the reports were closed as "out of date". Yet large open source products *do* work, and become the foundations for amazing things. I think shifting away from Gnats would help as it would make it easier for developers to find bugs they care about, users to submit higher-quality reports, and so on. Gnats makes it really hard to manage reports in a useful way. Another possibility is to get some combination of {The FreeBSD Foundation, iX Systems, ...} to trawl the bug report database in a more official capacity. The problem there is that this will be a high burn-out job. I'll bring it up at the next Foundation board meeting, especially after a bumper year of fund-raising, and see what we can do. Robert From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:35:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E491065675; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:35:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605908FC16; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:35:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFFC546B06; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:34:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:34:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Andriy Gapon In-Reply-To: <4F1543C2.8050404@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <4F1543C2.8050404@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:35:00 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 17/01/2012 00:28 John Kozubik said the following: >> we going to run RELEASE software ONLY > > My opinion: you've put yourself in a box that is not very compatible with > the current FreeBSD release strategy. With your scale and restrictions you > probably should just use the FreeBSD source and roll your own releases from > a stable branch of interest (including testing, etc). Or have your own > "branch" where you could cherry-pick interesting changes from any FreeBSD > branches. Tools like e.g. git and mercurial make it easy. Of course, this > strategy is not as easy as trying to persuade the rest of FreeBSD > community/project/thing to change its ways, but perhaps a little bit more > realistic. You can bond with similarly minded organizations to share > costs/work/etc. It's a community-driven project after all. Suppose for a moment we get the .x release process fixed: we start cutting regular point releases from -STABLE on a 6-month cycle (just a strawman). freebsd-update's update and upgrade features actually make tracking -STABLE at release engineered time slices plausible. One reason that's true is that between 5.x and 6.x, the FreeBSD Project underwent a substantive change in our approach to binary interfaces. In 4.x and before, the letters "ABI" rarely hit the mailing lists. In 6.x and later, it's a key topic discussed whenever merges to -STABLE come up. We now really care about keeping applications running as the OS moves under them. We also build packages to better-defined ABIs -- not perfectly, but OK. I think John gets a lot of what he wants if we just fix our release cycle. Robert From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:47:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31739106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:47:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EBA8FC16; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:47:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEDBC46B23; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:47:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:47:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:47:25 -0000 On Tue, 17 Jan 2012, Doug Barton wrote: > The other thing I think has been missing (as several have pointed out in > this thread already) is any sort of planning for what should be in the next > release. The current time-based release schedule is (in large part) a > reaction to the problems we had in getting 5.0 out the door. However I think > the pendulum has swung *way* too far in the wrong direction, such that we > are now afraid to put *any* kind of plan in place for fear that it will > cause the release schedule to slip. Aside from the obvious folly in that > (lack of) plan, it fails to take into account the fact that the release > schedules already slip, often comically far out into the future, and that > the results are often worse than they would have been otherwise. Agreed entirely. There's been an over-swing caused by the diagnosis "it's like herding cats" into "cats can't be herded, so why try?". Projects like FreeBSD don't agree if there's no consensus on interesting problems to solve, directions to run in, etc. The history of FreeBSD is also full of examples of successful collaborative development in which developers decide, together, on a direction and run that way. Sure, it's not the same as "we are paying you to do X", but I think many FreeBSD developers like the idea that they are working on something larger than just their own micro-project, and would subscribe (and contribute) to a sensible plan. In fact, I think we'd find that if we were a bit more forthcoming about our plans, we'd have an easier time soliciting contributions from people less involved in the project, as it would be more obvious how they could get involved. It strikes me that the first basic plan would be a release schedule, however. :-) Robert From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:50:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5F61065676 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:50:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rik@inse.ru) Received: from ns.rikbsd.org (ns.rikbsd.org [95.143.215.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DE68FC15 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:50:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (wn.rikbsd.org [192.168.1.254]) by ns.rikbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 449F85CF13; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:49:50 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F15609E.5080405@inse.ru> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:50:54 +0400 From: Roman Kurakin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20111109) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@FutureCIS.com, William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:50:31 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Julian Elischer wrote: > >> On 1/16/12 3:32 PM, William Bentley wrote: >>> I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. >>> Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was >>> the only one who felt this way. >> [...] >> >>> We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am >>> all in favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and >>> proper life cycle management. >>> >>> Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among >>> the minority? >> >> It pretty much boils down to one thing.. man power.. > > I disagree. Resourcing is an issue, but it is not *the* issue. The > real issue here is a failure by the release engineering team (which > includes me) to concurrently perform major and minor releases. Given > that minor releases run like clockwork in most cases, this is > disappointing. In the past, there have been a lot of good technical > and structural obstacles to trying to do clockwork releases for both > major and minor releases: > > - Tight synchronisation of the ports and base release schedule means > that the > base release schedule limits ports productivity. > > - Long freezes forced on us by poor revision control support for > branching. > > None of these really apply any longer -- and in as much as they do, > they should be addressed. In particular, I think there's a growing > feeling that ports should be conducting its own releases out of > lockstep with the base tree, producing package sets as a primary > product at regular intervals regardless of the base release schedule. > Likewise, long freezes enforced by expensive branching operation in > CVS no longer apply due to use of Subversion -- it's not perfect, but > it's workable. > > There's no way to satisfy everyone with any particular maintenance > schedule and release cycle. However, it seems clear that the current > model with minor releases spaced at a year is satisfying no one. It's > easy to point at a developer<->user divide, but I think that misses > the point: most developers are users. A big gap between development > branch and shipped features hurts the commercial users of FreeBSD that > pay for so much of its development, since it forces them to support > diverging local development and shipping products -- ISPs, etc. There > is no incentive for year-long gaps in minor releases. > > My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say > structural -- problem. Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be > forcing out minor releases, which are morally similar to "service > packs" in the vocabulary of other vendors: device driver improvements, > new CPU support, steady of conservative feature development, etc, > required to keep older major releases viable on contemporary hardware > and with contemporary applications. One known problem is using a > single "head" release engineer in steering all releases. I think this > is a mistake, as it makes the whole project's release schedule subject > to individual unavailability, burnout, etc, as well as increasing the > risks associated with low bus factor. I'd like to see us move to a > model where new release engineers are mentored in from the developer > community for point releases, ensuring that we increase our expertise, > share knowledge about release engineering in the broader community, > and get new eyes on the process which can lead more readily to process > improvements. The role of the "head" release engineer shouldn't be > hands-on prodution of every release, but rather, steering of the > overall team. > > I'd like to see this begin with 8.3, drawing a per-release lead from > the developer community, and continue with a fixed schedule release of > 8.4. Yes, more staffing is needed, but first, what is needed is an > improvement in model. It looks like Intel's development model. They have two teams. One works on new processor, while the second do upgrade of the previous one. On next turn the last one start the new processor and the first one does. I think it is great model. [...] From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 11:54:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB1A106566C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:54:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22258FC17; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:54:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3416225pbd.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:54:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OMvuvdguZepUGdB1hc9sx05ibWLJ3PDVa6G+AmJwfn0=; b=cyVGlx+vqRhVetq64eOraOtj3nTiMCYF7T33utqIqrb7WhMzO98tGHUE/DG2NxUwDD p1pWakUpUi2stXVj756jv/O2pktQlpAIkhnVW8sRJ6IZhqHBTsgIn37P5yIrzwCU7qeA GrUAC0ODIkgfG9VbdmCcnAHQ4Gs5wnNdCgONE= Received: by 10.68.212.73 with SMTP id ni9mr43423755pbc.82.1326887683157; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:54:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:54:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F16A83C.5070204@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F16A83C.5070204@FreeBSD.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:54:02 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: k5L2csaoDlGJ7AEPEm0-TAMWtZQ Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:54:44 -0000 On 18 January 2012 11:08, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: [snip] >>> There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. >>> There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. =C2=A0Maybe l= ess for any >>> given particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). >>> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. >>> Need I continue? >> >> Is that because there are so many bugs that need fixing or is it >> because PRs get ignored/become staled? > > Sorry for saying the obvious, but it is because the PRs are fixed at slow= er rate > than they are opened. That may be the case, but we are not talking about PRs as a whole, but PRs that already contain fixes... >> From the preceding discussion >> it appears to be more of the latter than the former. > > Impressions can be deceiving. > Honestly, do you believe that all committers are willfully ignoring the P= Rs just > to cause pain to the users? =C2=A0Or do you consider a possibility that t= here is an > objective reason why the things are the way they are? I was not suggesting malice on behalf of the developers at all, what I was saying is that there is an *appearance* that developers prefer to write new and funky code in lieu of dealing with PRs. This is evidenced by people saying that one has to persistently nag to get the patch looked at/incorporated. Why should that be the case, when it isn't the case on other F/OSS projects? This might be another "social" problem is that the PR and the bug busting team do not have enough stick over devs... >> Throwing toys out of the pram >> because there's just "too much" stuff to do is really not the answer >> I'm afraid... > > So what's your suggestion? =C2=A0But, please, nothing involving other peo= ple > spontaneously starting to do what you believe to be the right thing. For starters, what would be much more appreciated is for devs to be much more involved from the start once someone does submit the patch. I appreciate that people a fallible and from time to time are bound to forget that they have a PR with a patch assigned to them, but there's no reason why the PR handling system can't email reminders... The best way of dealing with "too much" on my plate, from personal experience, is to start tackling things one at a time... :-) -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 12:19:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C6D106566B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:19:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D788FC19 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:18:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id OAA28110; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:18:52 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnUTb-0008f1-Ra; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:18:51 +0200 Message-ID: <4F16B8AA.2040004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:18:50 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Mozolevsky References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F16A83C.5070204@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:19:00 -0000 on 18/01/2012 13:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: > On 18 January 2012 11:08, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> on 18/01/2012 12:54 Igor Mozolevsky said the following: > > [snip] > >>>> There are about 5000 open PRs for FreeBSD base system, maybe more. >>>> There are only a few dozens of active FreeBSD developers. Maybe less for any >>>> given particular point in time (as opposed to a period of time). >>>> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. >>>> Need I continue? >>> >>> Is that because there are so many bugs that need fixing or is it >>> because PRs get ignored/become staled? >> >> Sorry for saying the obvious, but it is because the PRs are fixed at slower rate >> than they are opened. > > That may be the case, but we are not talking about PRs as a whole, but > PRs that already contain fixes... They get lost in the noise quite easily. And probably not many people start their days with browsing through the PRs looking for a gem. >>> From the preceding discussion >>> it appears to be more of the latter than the former. >> >> Impressions can be deceiving. >> Honestly, do you believe that all committers are willfully ignoring the PRs just >> to cause pain to the users? Or do you consider a possibility that there is an >> objective reason why the things are the way they are? > > I was not suggesting malice on behalf of the developers at all, what I > was saying is that there is an *appearance* that developers prefer to > write new and funky code in lieu of dealing with PRs. This is > evidenced by people saying that one has to persistently nag to get the > patch looked at/incorporated. Why should that be the case, when it > isn't the case on other F/OSS projects? Let's not repeat this "other projects" thing ad infinitum. I also have experience with other projects and they are not all that perfect. Especially the large projects. > This might be another "social" > problem is that the PR and the bug busting team do not have enough > stick over devs... In a volunteer community nobody has a real stick over other people. We can try to talk each other into doing things, but nobody can force someone else, only himself. >>> Throwing toys out of the pram >>> because there's just "too much" stuff to do is really not the answer >>> I'm afraid... >> >> So what's your suggestion? But, please, nothing involving other people >> spontaneously starting to do what you believe to be the right thing. > > For starters, what would be much more appreciated is for devs to be > much more involved from the start once someone does submit the patch. Indeed, it would be appreciated. That doesn't answer the question about how to make it happen. > I appreciate that people a fallible and from time to time are bound to > forget that they have a PR with a patch assigned to them, but there's > no reason why the PR handling system can't email reminders... So software can already send the reminders, but the real problem is to assign the PRs in the first place. Currently most assignment are self-assignments. As such most of the open PRs are not assigned to anybody. > The best > way of dealing with "too much" on my plate, from personal experience, > is to start tackling things one at a time... :-) And from my personal experience I already have a several dozen items on my plate that I am really interested in. And by the time I remove one item from the plate I get a few more added. And so I just don't happen to have a day where I have to think which random PR to fix today. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 13:12:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9778106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:12:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E240B8FC15; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so1199173lah.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:12:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XSIBs7cmn6Vi3bb/kAPpJNacEtI9zTamO2RD71WCuLU=; b=A/K2UZW3ujdJPPYzc0GSQ1uTKwD6UiH1Ug5xA2+biVYG0w4DiZcoXKuLPkKzy0VEA0 RkdcLytm2L+4wA4b9el3mcpXxJfL772Qodau3Ie0P9o87STm6ipnayLCxUBrblglKar0 qgAcuYGcEuvrMBnNeU4Wvq56nWVTW/IJZkMXk= Received: by 10.112.99.5 with SMTP id em5mr5109689lbb.85.1326892346182; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:12:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.21.168 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:11:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> From: Eitan Adler Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:11:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: Igor Mozolevsky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ian Lepore , Andriy Gapon , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:12:28 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Igor Mozolevsky wr= ote: > On 18 January 2012 01:11, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> It takes time to review and test patches. There are a lot of people >> that think "it only takes 30 seconds to download the patch, apply, and >> commit." =C2=A0This is just not true. > > I fully understand that and it is not what I was saying, what I was > saying was about the patches that were being plainly ignored/allowed > to go stale. What you said below is perfectly reasonable once a > committer is actively involved in dealing with a patch, then I, and > anyone else for that matter, would be very reasonably expected to be > involved in the process and understands that someone else is working > on the issue you've address. Often times people don't do this part and submit a "drive by patch." Nothing is wrong with that, but it does make it harder to verify that a fix is correct (especially for hardware support PRs). > The problem, however, lies in the time > between a patch is submitted and is "picked up", if the latter ever > occurs!.. That is where the discouragement occurs. I guess I didn't follow through on all the above. My point was that who wants to spend 3, 4, 7, 10 hours fixing a bug report when they can be working on a shiny new feature (or play games, or anything else but work!)? > I hope I've address what you say here just above :-) and > wholeheartedly agree with everything else you've said, but you are > addressing the problem from a different angle: nobody is ever going to > disagree that _once_ someone has picked up a patch it will take them > time to get it through whatever steps necessary. As I said above, the time it takes to follow through on a PR discourages people from even looking. > But, as I said above, > it's getting to *this* stage that is the lengthy and a disheartening > process... I agree that this is a real problem. Unfortunately I can't think of any good solutions. The bugbusting team maintains a list of "easy" and "quality" PRs which we try to get committers to look at. I also maintain a personal "bugging list" (pun intended) of PRs which I bug other people about. This has helped somewhat (the PRs I bug people about tend to get closed) but it isn't sufficient. >> If you have ideas to make this process easier or more efficient we are >> all eager to hear them. I am especially interested to know what *I* >> could do to help speed things along in areas I don't know well enough >> to commit to. > > The problem, which I suspect is very difficult to overcome in what I > call the "bazaar" environment, is the enforcement. Solving this and other problems is so hard a back has been written on the topic: http://producingoss.com/ > One way to > "encourage" people to fix their code would be to prevent them from > committing to -CURRENT once they pass a certain threshold of > "unattended" patches. Of course then, committers will be whinging that > they'd be resigning if they can't commit to -CURRENT, but quite > frankly, why should anyone have the commit privilege if they can't be > bothered to address the bugs, are those people just using the FreeBSD > project to boost their CV (with great powers comes great > responsibility!)? Wouldn't this discourage even more people from helping? --=20 Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 13:31:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05AB106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:31:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F028FC0C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:31:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14so437306dad.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:31:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=DQeXEhqkMLhU+z6o8nZcDZrHW1eKDwvSlwhNOScjJOU=; b=CMTMUoyd2NHqDypwl+MPq9OyQJ+BBn/zycUVEaMWmSGExaKVGr4H+M/eCfCNEnIyF4 fqBenA/CIeOXJPGWOq3iX43KiwMSQOZMDRqfeN/ECGEoAch673OcLA4Dai6Q85qtU8qa jMaLuV+DjOhi5Zk4D8UEQ+WnUd8knXNytEEDc= Received: by 10.68.212.73 with SMTP id ni9mr43961735pbc.82.1326893510147; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:31:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:31:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:31:09 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: iLGupOWgXx8SLUkSV9Z7IQasGmM Message-ID: To: Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: Ian Lepore , Andriy Gapon , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:31:50 -0000 On 18 January 2012 13:11, Eitan Adler wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> One way to >> "encourage" people to fix their code would be to prevent them from >> committing to -CURRENT once they pass a certain threshold of >> "unattended" patches. Of course then, committers will be whinging that >> they'd be resigning if they can't commit to -CURRENT, but quite >> frankly, why should anyone have the commit privilege if they can't be >> bothered to address the bugs, are those people just using the FreeBSD >> project to boost their CV (with great powers comes great >> responsibility!)? > > Wouldn't this discourage even more people from helping? Would this not separate people who have a genuine interest in contributing from "tinker-monkeys"? -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 14:10:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9C11065674; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:10:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B348FC17; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:10:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [96.47.65.170]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 89E1246B06; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1025FB91C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:10:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:53:22 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p10; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201201180853.22254.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:10:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: Ivan Voras Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:10:01 -0000 On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:41:48 am Ivan Voras wrote: > (answering out of order) > > On 16/01/2012 23:28, John Kozubik wrote: > > > 2) Having two simultaneous production releases draws focus away from > > both of them, and keeps any release from ever truly maturing. > > This isn't how things work. The -CURRENT always has (and probably always > had and always will have) the focus of developers. This is not strictly true. At work we are using 8.2-ish, and so right now much of development happens on 8 and has to be forward ported to HEAD. I do think we are cutting stable branches a bit too often and that we could merge features back to older branches more aggressively. SVN had made that much easier (e.g. merging superpages from 8 back to 7). However, it is more work for a developer to merge a change back to 2 or 3 branches (e.g. from HEAD to 9 to 8 to 7). Developers are more willing to merge things back to one or two branches. Right now we have made a design decision to release new X.0 releases (and cut new branches) at a certain frequency (and we aren't even keeping up). We could choose to alter that design and I think we would end up with longer-lived stable branches as a result. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 15:26:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB38106566B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:26:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erik@cederstrand.dk) Received: from csmtp1.one.com (csmtp1.one.com [195.47.247.21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7938FC22 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:26:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.10.10.26] (unknown [217.157.7.216]) by csmtp1.one.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8D128204230DD; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:11:03 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Erik Cederstrand In-Reply-To: <03b301ccd587$eba40d00$c2ec2700$@fisglobal.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:11:03 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <03b301ccd587$eba40d00$c2ec2700$@fisglobal.com> To: Devin Teske X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 14 month old regression (how?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:26:28 -0000 Den 18/01/2012 kl. 03.21 skrev Devin Teske: > Looking at bin/164192... >=20 > I'm left wondering to myself... > How on Earth did a regression-by-typo introduced in SVN r214735 go 14 = months > without being noticed? Because the regression tests in FreeBSD don't cover this part of the = code? :-) Erik= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 15:35:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B699A106566C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:35:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656208FC0C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:35:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so10759969iag.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:35:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=g1kGdcT/rsF75soWpVZ5gKlPItqenaV9fJLvXp64LUE=; b=UploBQYiHiUHbOAC3OBhtRr4OmAtpW3Mv7LeNwGItFszUyS8e5HZr6PkSpalQS9dtW gkutHZgNInBF4dQrPxK5bpKwfBLjOhO3olk/zUpQXw8ZazhQEIIQEpEgfx6v2RnUG2Ej AvY75yBjuw+uRIiQChy14j5QydvClOXbj6pUo= Received: by 10.42.170.3 with SMTP id d3mr17000817icz.7.1326900941830; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.20.12] (c-24-6-49-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.6.49.154]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z22sm90241488ibg.5.2012.01.18.07.35.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:35:41 -0800 (PST) References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F16A83C.5070204@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <7D177921-A193-4172-9D34-55AFD9014838@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: Garrett Cooper Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:35:36 -0800 To: Igor Mozolevsky Cc: Ian Lepore , Andriy Gapon , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:35:42 -0000 [snip] > For starters, what would be much more appreciated is for devs to be > much more involved from the start once someone does submit the patch. > I appreciate that people a fallible and from time to time are bound to > forget that they have a PR with a patch assigned to them, but there's > no reason why the PR handling system can't email reminders... GNATS already emails periodic reminders to bug owners (be the owners individ= ual devs or mailing lists, eg freebsd-rc, etc). -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 15:56:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 441B9106566B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ap@bnc.net) Received: from mailomat.net (mailomat.net [81.20.89.254]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA808FC1F for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:56:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailomat-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] X-Mailomat-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Mailomat-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] Received: from [194.39.192.125] (account bnc-mail@mailrelay.mailomat.net HELO bnc.net) by mailomat.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.15) with ESMTPSA id 55876308; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:56:01 +0100 X-Junk-Score: 2 [X] X-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] Received: from [192.168.200.189] (account ap@bnc.net HELO [192.168.200.189]) by bnc.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTPSA id 5180397; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:56:00 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Achim Patzner X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <93F94D7970EC47D88A2DF9C7F726BF75@multiplay.co.uk> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:56:00 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <98446ADF-D4DB-4666-BC82-A7259CC30EEB@bnc.net> References: <93F94D7970EC47D88A2DF9C7F726BF75@multiplay.co.uk> To: Steven Hartland X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:56:06 -0000 Am 17.01.2012 um 20:54 schrieb Steven Hartland: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Kozubik" >> It's amazing how many people are in the exact same boats - waiting = for 8.3, getting locked out of new motherboards because em(4) can't be = "backported" to even the production release... >=20 > This is not true, only last week did we take the version of e1000 from > HEAD into our 8.2-RELEASE tree as a patch. It wasnt totally trivial = but > it also wasnt difficult either. But it would still be preferable for > many not to have to do this I assume? freebsd-update its the keyword. Many of our customers could use (and do = - most of them are paying peanuts for their IT staff) trained monkeys = for system upgrades if they stay on -RELEASE steps. Alternatively: Use properly versioned binaries and get freebsd-update = working on arbitrary versions. Achim From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 16:22:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49815106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:22:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthewstory@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com (mail-vx0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067648FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:22:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so4380904vcb.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:22:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VT+Z2lYrpaFhd4Sqmo5/mwqRvqbh3IRjhp9QplaqeMY=; b=S+vz7oOGeKnfdmxvsaLTsgVLqKAay54EEqAeELMGkIQGD3nXrE69OMvD0Nx4izEUQc Zi84OyVkE3jnQWDTZ4hHpBOk02uJ+32RFuluWdYsdDX/6mTmD6qLHF0hpuck5saVNyMM XhqV/0/iqONEk0SshWYSO+bMIXLisU2kx0cYQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.231.131 with SMTP id jq3mr12779558vcb.44.1326902444694; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.159.69 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:00:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:00:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Matthew Story To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: intent of tab-completion in /bin/sh in 9.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:22:28 -0000 Just noticed that tab-completion in /bin/sh has been added in 9.0 (verified that it is not there in 8.0, dunno if it's there in 8.2, could probably go digging to figure it out). In addition to the command history via : (which is present in 8.0) FreeBSD sh is now actually a pretty usable interactive shell. I also noticed that the following bit has been removed from the sh(1): This version has many features which make it appear similar in some respects to the Korn shell, but it is not a Korn shell clone like pdksh. Just wondering if the general direction here is attempting to provide a minimal POSIX shell, that is useful enough interactively to become the default root shell (supplanting csh)? Or if there is just a general trend towards adopting more of the ksh feature-set. Relatively new to list, so if this has been discussed, apologies. -- regards, matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:06:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8D01065676; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A318FC14; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:06:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa04 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa04.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0IGSQl0011599; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:06:41 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa04.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12e0xs0c5p-77 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:06:40 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:06:27 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Julian Elischer'" , "'Mark Felder'" References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:06:54 -0800 Message-ID: <03da01ccd603$94aca490$be05edb0$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFTuuDxM2D0gQ4oJ7TghrFqaFf0jQIwvkNsAbrfJ2OW5TLoMA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-18_07:2012-01-17, 2012-01-18, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:06:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM > To: Mark Felder > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle > [snip] > Where I used to work (Devin Teske is now there) we used to use the 'stable' > branch and rolll our own releases. > the criticality of those systems was hard to over-emphasize. In 2005 we worked > out we processed 1.5 trillion dollars of transactions on those systems. > Got new stats. In 2011 we ran $1.61T USD through FreeBSD. Separately, we ran another $0.05T USD through Linux in the same year. Kinda says something about, doesn't it? -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:12:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5F0106566B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C58A8FC16 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3651697pbd.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:12:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P7DDEUK3jRYTt85Co2VmxkDDkhIpHYsantAM39rW43I=; b=r3wHlZF19KwTjrVte+lNRqV5NfrWlhJH2B7+ISRGjKtJPsNXgDXXHzOmaw4atXv3Pg U4dtoVv1Z1VdOfYHSHMf9egu+Bo1ayrnvUdSUz/lAsvFps1sChdUlkt9M/aZyfwgVAIY VBhlqI16rLOWTWxHzvj9czpO7Io2M7np0Sy14= Received: by 10.68.74.170 with SMTP id u10mr44557507pbv.99.1326906760108; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:12:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:11:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <03da01ccd603$94aca490$be05edb0$@fisglobal.com> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <03da01ccd603$94aca490$be05edb0$@fisglobal.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:11:59 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ev2JRFR2uSSBmOpRXvzJnAOizsk Message-ID: To: Devin Teske Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mark Felder Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:12:40 -0000 On 18 January 2012 17:06, Devin Teske wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- >> hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer >> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM >> To: Mark Felder >> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org >> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lif= ecycle >> > [snip] > >> Where I used to work (Devin Teske is now there) =C2=A0we used to use the= 'stable' >> branch and rolll our own releases. >> the criticality of those systems was hard to over-emphasize. In 2005 we = worked >> out we processed 1.5 trillion dollars of transactions on those systems. >> > > Got new stats. In 2011 we ran $1.61T USD through FreeBSD. > > Separately, we ran another $0.05T USD through Linux in the same year. > > Kinda says something about, doesn't it? Sorry to burst your bubble but this is utterly meaningless statistic. You show nothing but correlation and in no way a causation. Back in the days when the UK banks ran ATMs, &c on Windows NT (I have no idea what they are running now) they went through a lot more "value" than that---means absolutely nothing... -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:13:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361D4106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBE48FC2D for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:13:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.netplex.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id q0IHDJJT047791; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:13:19 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Message whitelisted by DRAC access database, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.6 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:13:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:13:19 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: Andriy Gapon In-Reply-To: <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, William Bentley , Robert Watson , WBentley@FutureCIS.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:13:22 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/01/2012 12:44 Robert Watson said the following: >> My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say structural -- >> problem. Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be forcing out minor releases, >> which are morally similar to "service packs" in the vocabulary of other vendors: >> device driver improvements, new CPU support, steady of conservative feature >> development, etc, required to keep older major releases viable on contemporary >> hardware and with contemporary applications. One known problem is using a >> single "head" release engineer in steering all releases. I think this is a >> mistake, as it makes the whole project's release schedule subject to individual >> unavailability, burnout, etc, as well as increasing the risks associated with >> low bus factor. I'd like to see us move to a model where new release engineers >> are mentored in from the developer community for point releases, ensuring that >> we increase our expertise, share knowledge about release engineering in the >> broader community, and get new eyes on the process which can lead more readily >> to process improvements. The role of the "head" release engineer shouldn't be >> hands-on prodution of every release, but rather, steering of the overall team. >> >> I'd like to see this begin with 8.3, drawing a per-release lead from the >> developer community, and continue with a fixed schedule release of 8.4. Yes, >> more staffing is needed, but first, what is needed is an improvement in model. > > Robert, > > I think that in addition to what you suggest above it would also be useful to > have some sort of branch meisters. The current model when every developer > decides whether and when and where to do an MFC does not seem to be the proper > one. Developers often forget to do an MFC. Or decide against an MFC when there > is no reason to do so. Or sometimes do an MFC where the stable branch users > would rather prefer that it is not done. > There needs to be someone who "owns" a branch and who want to make it perfect. > Someone who could request an MFC (or even do it himself) and someone who could > reject an MFC. "someone who owns a branch..." - If you cut release N.0, do not move -current to N+1. Keep -current at N for a while, prohibiting ABI changes, and any other risky changes. If a developer wants to do possibly disruptive work, they can do it from their own repo. At this point, the branch meister(s) own the branch, and HEAD is only moved to N+1 when they decide that the branch is stable enough for production. Maybe then, N.1 (or N.2) is rolled out. I think most developers track HEAD because: you have to commit and test in HEAD before MFC'ing anyway; because of that, it easier to track and test one branch; and ports built for HEAD may not work on -stable. -- DE From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:31:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231561065675 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:31:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04E38FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:31:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so10952316iag.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:31:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XCEnNkDfr36bD60fStNxbZMf0VvClQnksdWSfwMPBi0=; b=Ii6lXjCb/hHjViOlI4971Y3Cf1FBXvw3ZIaUHQ0xJK8xvzr8px5FBKiplYhX6XBof+ qiy/1/Vf1Q+jpeXAHHQGqhg8R0ukXej0djSyYltyny1+NMSE8H3ZXof7NymZYkGGACP4 aMd9vvvhk7DQ1TlajdmQ6th759TIhN7cmQdc4= Received: by 10.50.161.135 with SMTP id xs7mr20716844igb.15.1326907864296; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:31:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.207.7 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:30:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <03da01ccd603$94aca490$be05edb0$@fisglobal.com> From: Chris Rees Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:30:33 +0000 Message-ID: To: Igor Mozolevsky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mark Felder , Devin Teske Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:31:05 -0000 On 18 Jan 2012 17:12, "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote: > On 18 January 2012 17:06, Devin Teske wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > >> hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM > >> To: Mark Felder > >> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > >> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and l= ifecycle > >> > > [snip] > > > >> Where I used to work (Devin Teske is now there) =A0we used to use the = 'stable' > >> branch and rolll our own releases. > >> the criticality of those systems was hard to over-emphasize. In 2005 w= e worked > >> out we processed 1.5 trillion dollars of transactions on those systems= . > >> > > > > Got new stats. In 2011 we ran $1.61T USD through FreeBSD. > > > > Separately, we ran another $0.05T USD through Linux in the same year. > > > > Kinda says something about, doesn't it? > > Sorry to burst your bubble but this is utterly meaningless statistic. > You show nothing but correlation and in no way a causation. Back in > the days when the UK banks ran ATMs, &c on Windows NT (I have no idea > what they are running now) they went through a lot more "value" than > that---means absolutely nothing... > Well.... I've not seen any BSOD'd cashpoints around for a while, so I'd like to suggest they may have switched. Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:36:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71EA10656D0 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:36:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEBD8FC1B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:36:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3669509pbd.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:36:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=r5xiNHmx5HRIJmm54I4/SFNZK6XG0TKHXt9mbTF/PGY=; b=bh3VpuDIs+SaS9tltgKCVBxjvA3UJ0Ifg+ykYp2koUWR3BeoNQ0OLqaypx/CTM27yB GzqhQsyDCbDRjeJ5lNrkDScGX6h66uxQSIp6xa7VN/qJK89jBs3gf6awLxqcXuuxvjLl sV/UVU+v8ScV8HUKvT5dFCcmC4V0au6782NbE= Received: by 10.68.190.101 with SMTP id gp5mr44931875pbc.31.1326908165288; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:36:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:35:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <03da01ccd603$94aca490$be05edb0$@fisglobal.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:35:24 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Cx4iES2HK-b9PVmvniCSbfAePks Message-ID: To: Chris Rees Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mark Felder , Devin Teske Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:36:05 -0000 On 18 January 2012 17:30, Chris Rees wrote: > On 18 Jan 2012 17:12, "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote: >> Back in the days when the UK banks ran ATMs, &c on Windows NT (I >> have no idea what they are running now) > Well.... I've not seen any BSOD'd cashpoints around for a while, so > I'd like to suggest they may have switched. That, or they found "reboot after crash" tick box... ;-) -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:48:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94598106566C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:48:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6DB8FC0C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:48:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0IHmKmo002931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:49:23 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25) Gecko/20111213 Thunderbird/3.1.17 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ian Lepore , Igor Mozolevsky , Andriy Gapon , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:48:24 -0000 On 1/18/12 3:32 AM, Robert Watson wrote: > > Another possibility is to get some combination of {The FreeBSD > Foundation, iX Systems, ...} to trawl the bug report database in a > more official capacity. The problem there is that this will be a > high burn-out job. I'll bring it up at the next Foundation board > meeting, especially after a bumper year of fund-raising, and see > what we can do. we really need a bud-submitting-user advocate.. Someone (need not have a commit bit) who doesn't take charge of the patch, but, rather, acts as a project manager in hte process of getting it in. i.e. finding, and then pinging the approriate developer, and occasionally nagging them or finding an alternate dev if the first choice is unresponsive. diplomatic skill would be important.. maybe a woman might be best in this job as the developers tend to not want to be rude to women :-) . > > Robert > _______________________________________________ > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:56:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED6B106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:56:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08E08FC08; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:56:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odyssey.starpoint.kiev.ua (alpha-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.101]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id TAA02369; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:54 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20120111 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Eischen References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Julian Elischer , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, William Bentley , Robert Watson , WBentley@FutureCIS.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:56:59 -0000 on 18/01/2012 19:13 Daniel Eischen said the following: > "someone who owns a branch..." - If you cut release N.0, do not > move -current to N+1. Keep -current at N for a while, prohibiting > ABI changes, and any other risky changes. If a developer wants to > do possibly disruptive work, they can do it from their own repo. I am totally against this. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 17:57:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B18F1065677; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:57:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A91E8FC23; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:57:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa03 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0IHQ21B015666; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:57:43 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12e24ug8v2-43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:57:43 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:56:30 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Igor Mozolevsky'" References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <03da01ccd603$94aca490$be05edb0$@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:56:56 -0800 Message-ID: <03ee01ccd60a$9249d130$b6dd7390$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFTuuDxM2D0gQ4oJ7TghrFqaFf0jQIwvkNsAbrfJ2MBrfIL3gM559Gylr4DMFA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-18_07:2012-01-17, 2012-01-18, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, 'Mark Felder' Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:57:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: mozolevsky@gmail.com [mailto:mozolevsky@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Igor > Mozolevsky > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:12 AM > To: Devin Teske > Cc: Julian Elischer; Mark Felder; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and life= cycle >=20 > On 18 January 2012 17:06, Devin Teske wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > >> hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian Elischer > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:56 AM > >> To: Mark Felder > >> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > >> Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and > >> lifecycle > >> > > [snip] > > > >> Where I used to work (Devin Teske is now there) we used to use the 's= table' > >> branch and rolll our own releases. > >> the criticality of those systems was hard to over-emphasize. In 2005 > >> we worked out we processed 1.5 trillion dollars of transactions on tho= se > systems. > >> > > > > Got new stats. In 2011 we ran $1.61T USD through FreeBSD. > > > > Separately, we ran another $0.05T USD through Linux in the same year. > > > > Kinda says something about, doesn't it? >=20 > Sorry to burst your bubble but this is utterly meaningless statistic. > You show nothing but correlation and in no way a causation. Back in the d= ays > when the UK banks ran ATMs, &c on Windows NT (I have no idea what they are > running now) they went through a lot more "value" than that---means absol= utely > nothing... >=20 No worries... you're not bursting anyone's bubble here. We are limited as to what metrics we can publish in this open forum. If there's some information that would better put this into perspective, fe= el free to ask, but we are always at liberty to decline if the published in= formation would violate any federal laws. --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 18:39:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E951065674 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:39:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064618FC08 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:39:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so11066333iag.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.48.132 with SMTP id uw4mr9132958icb.17.1326911988264; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mikmeyer-vm-fedora (dhcp-173-37-11-196.cisco.com. [173.37.11.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id uz5sm20644911igc.0.2012.01.18.10.39.47 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:39:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:39:17 -0800 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120118103917.21d9751b@mikmeyer-vm-fedora> In-Reply-To: <4F16A8C6.9070709@FreeBSD.org> References: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> <4F16A8C6.9070709@FreeBSD.org> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10 (GTK+ 2.24.7; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:39:49 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:11:02 +0200 Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/01/2012 12:47 Poul-Henning Kamp said the following: > > FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the > > community and there is no way it can be any other way. > Well, reading this http://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD-ng it seems that > in the past there was a "for users" component related to FreeBSD > release process. There were developers in the community for whom seeing people using their code was the priority goal. This led to them building a system "for users". I see a lot of them working on OSX these days - it's clearly the most popular BSD-based OS. And Apple has better stock options that the FreeBSD Foundation. Not that the RE's aren't doing good work now. It's just that the goals seemed to have changed priority, resulting in reactions like this thread. Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C99106566C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com (mail-wi0-f182.google.com [209.85.212.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EC58FC0A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:57:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12so3968013wib.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:57:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=sEKiTWtcLFGIoPSwi5hPAvEdIkWNioWWuqxj++8aN4s=; b=cdg7KwVVj/nBe1IrEmuUjUPoef6+AZvCI8G9vaSv3zeC55+XnkGrgwFlMl+Y0Kim/p HUUL1lk2/uqG553bpsRoM+h3rkz35xTdjOZSOR8i9V+/14Weo1fq1ChDBzmBeMX0m/HP HFdEB1+x6N/UUeiyVJJeZ2hlTwXqgwSJJCdsM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.109.77 with SMTP id hq13mr33140875wib.7.1326911271274; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.157.198 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:27:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:27:51 -0600 Message-ID: From: Adam Vande More To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Ian Lepore , Robert Watson , Andriy Gapon , Igor Mozolevsky Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:57:31 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Julian Elischer wrote: > > we really need a bud-submitting-user advocate.. > > Someone (need not have a commit bit) who doesn't take charge of the patch, > but, rather, > acts as a project manager in hte process of getting it in. > i.e. finding, and then pinging the approriate developer, and occasionally > nagging them or > finding an alternate dev if the first choice is unresponsive. > > diplomatic skill would be important.. maybe a woman might be best in > this job as the developers tend to not want to be rude to women :-) . > I've suggested this before without much response, but since this thread seems to be encouraging repetition I'll give it another go. ;) I think a bounty system would be very effective(e.g. micro-donations of recent political campaigns) in getting many of these problems resolved. The main problem with a bounty system is getting people to pay since certain needs/desires lose their urgency over time. To address this, the system needs to be an escrow type setup where money is pooled until project is complete, then payment in full is given. There are large barriers to entry in setting up such a system though such as legal and financial hurdles. I don't believe the technical hurdles are over-whelming and I would be willing develop a web front end for such a system. Because of the barriers I believe such a system should be setup and spun off by the FreeBSD Foundation and I don't want to do any dev unless there is some momentum. -- Adam Vande More From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:03:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D5F1065673 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:03:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-iy0-f196.google.com (mail-iy0-f196.google.com [209.85.210.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FE08FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:03:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so1136518iag.7 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.181.197 with SMTP id dy5mr23688381igc.13.1326913396630; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mikmeyer-vm-fedora (dhcp-173-37-11-196.cisco.com. [173.37.11.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r18sm91937332ibh.4.2012.01.18.11.03.15 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:02:35 -0800 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120118110235.0dbbf8ed@mikmeyer-vm-fedora> In-Reply-To: <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10 (GTK+ 2.24.7; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Bug triage (Was: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:03:18 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:49:23 -0800 Julian Elischer wrote: > On 1/18/12 3:32 AM, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > Another possibility is to get some combination of {The FreeBSD > > Foundation, iX Systems, ...} to trawl the bug report database in a > > more official capacity. The problem there is that this will be a > > high burn-out job. I'll bring it up at the next Foundation board > > meeting, especially after a bumper year of fund-raising, and see > > what we can do. > we really need a bug-submitting-user advocate.. The word you're looking for here is "triage". One of the two common denominators of the good support organizations I've worked with is good triage (the other is good metrics). > Someone (need not have a commit bit) who doesn't take charge of the > patch, but, rather, > acts as a project manager in the process of getting it in. > i.e. finding, and then pinging the approriate developer, and > occasionally nagging them or > finding an alternate dev if the first choice is unresponsive. > > diplomatic skill would be important.. maybe a woman might be best in > this job as the developers tend to not want to be rude to women :-) . Actually, there's a second half to this that you're overlooking. The person doing this job should make sure the PR's have everything the developer needs before they assign them to a developer. I suspect the devs would be a lot more responsive if they could actually work on the bug, and not have to explain that "this is a feature, not a bug", or reproducing it to verify that it's not a user problem, or walking the submitter through the process of getting a core dump, etc. Which also calls for diplomatic skills. Ok, could one of the bugmeisters provide a count of # of bug submissions/day for the last year, or some such? Thanks, Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EBA1106566B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:03:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mattjeet@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f54.google.com (mail-yw0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09BF8FC08; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:03:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yhfs35 with SMTP id s35so1481952yhf.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3XOk+mFZpPuEfFNuhFSUZB08bDgJyops20H48te32y4=; b=U51G+WXli5CQIdNiQIFGfOOpNFYnMyROIKBhiB+BhdKudhFWkl1ZYUgEJ4HpRSUvNu fvcGrdqLOSHVFkT19Ys1GrV3+bIu6yWiG7SM79NRk1G+CBjlgf4aaHCULFcMQRQqRHG8 8ezfyiSFW6Gnvs1sxsX2CeWyJztSYLBy/wE3o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.154.5 with SMTP id g5mr34007176yhk.63.1326913417935; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) Sender: mattjeet@gmail.com Received: by 10.101.46.10 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:03:37 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: AAbptAA-X7wmuuNQKrtBr9pY_UA Message-ID: From: Matt Olander To: Adam Vande More Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , Igor Mozolevsky , Andriy Gapon , Ian Lepore Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: matt@ixsystems.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:03:39 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Adam Vande More w= rote: > I've suggested this before without much response, but since this thread > seems to be encouraging repetition I'll give it another go. =A0;) > > I think a bounty system would be very effective(e.g. micro-donations of > recent political campaigns) in getting many of these problems resolved. > The main problem with a bounty system is getting people to pay since > certain needs/desires lose their urgency over time. =A0To address this, t= he > system needs to be an escrow type setup where money is pooled until proje= ct > is complete, then payment in full is given. > > There are large barriers to entry in setting up such a system though such > as legal and financial hurdles. =A0I don't believe the technical hurdles = are > over-whelming and I would be willing develop a web front end for such a > system. =A0Because of the barriers I believe such a system should be setu= p > and spun off by the FreeBSD Foundation and I don't want to do any dev > unless there is some momentum. Hi Adam, I went down this road sometime ago and went so far as to create a portal so that iXsystems could manage the transactions (collect the funds and make sure everyone got paid). We put a bit of work into it and we would be happy to hand the keys over to the Foundation if it's useful at all. http://sponsorbsd.org/ Let me know off-list if you'd like access to look at the code. It's a simple CakePHP app and needs a little bit of love but worked originally before we migrated the server. Cheers, -matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:05:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE4C1065672; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:05:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6429A8FC18; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:05:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obcwo16 with SMTP id wo16so5842100obc.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:05:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JQnJ5RnNf/yQ6KwUMFdcXd5PdYGn19tlp1kzUqkN4Gs=; b=Qpl9ROEt6bSNk/e6GhtIHUqGp5eyWNjXKCso7isGgeVpbAuNNX2L0yEFMZY3jt2N9y D8dhLOsnZNZeqGaUCmyKm0oNQdO9e/3kNMvl8fnKb0kzbGe2P7dpRsKA8pZ7HRuwl1Go /NVTaIgcduRDUubx/5Y4LNVdkCLtpDeDU0TqA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.41.5 with SMTP id b5mr17157319obl.79.1326913527793; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.5.162 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:05:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:05:27 -0800 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Adam Vande More Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , Igor Mozolevsky , Andriy Gapon , Ian Lepore Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:05:28 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Adam Vande More w= rote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Julian Elischer wro= te: > >> >> we really need a bud-submitting-user advocate.. >> >> Someone (need not have a commit bit) who doesn't take charge of the patc= h, >> but, rather, >> acts as a project manager in hte process of getting it in. >> i.e. finding, and then pinging the approriate developer, and occasionall= y >> nagging them or >> finding an alternate dev if the first choice is unresponsive. >> >> diplomatic skill would be important.. =A0maybe a woman might be best in >> this job as the developers tend to not want to be rude to women :-) =A0. >> > > I've suggested this before without much response, but since this thread > seems to be encouraging repetition I'll give it another go. =A0;) > > I think a bounty system would be very effective(e.g. micro-donations of > recent political campaigns) in getting many of these problems resolved. > The main problem with a bounty system is getting people to pay since > certain needs/desires lose their urgency over time. =A0To address this, t= he > system needs to be an escrow type setup where money is pooled until proje= ct > is complete, then payment in full is given. > > There are large barriers to entry in setting up such a system though such > as legal and financial hurdles. =A0I don't believe the technical hurdles = are > over-whelming and I would be willing develop a web front end for such a > system. =A0Because of the barriers I believe such a system should be setu= p > and spun off by the FreeBSD Foundation and I don't want to do any dev > unless there is some momentum. Bounty systems have not come into existence because of the potential legal ramifications w.r.t. distribution of funds, responsibility of completion of work, and a number of other points I've not listed here. iXsystems does help funnel money to contractors [with a small amount of "administrative overhead"] if you need something done and you have the funds to do it with. In which case, it's advised to have a proper plan, requirements document, and deliverables setup before going and proposing a course of action. That's where some opensource projects tend to fail: the requirements are too openended and thus the end-result cannot be achieved in a meaningful timeframe or in sufficiently manageable quanta (deliverables in this case). The deliverables and the scope of the work should be negotiated between all three parties: the 'customer', the 'contracting group', and the 'contractor'. Thanks, -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:07:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC831065672; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5EE8FC1B; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3735800pbd.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:07:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YXZP+GbJatewIMKsIrFON4YnW66x6ORAaGHnwfWJYck=; b=hdNT9AX+VLxhX0gheEykGlPFkmW1OFBjkxqcqOEWLaAx+9vKXwDE7Xzl3qGbTWlfNo s5sdJI1Fzc+Uplnv3zk/0tY/Iz/czFMV6u+Di7LfRW7W09MuklGE+mSbwPviy4pZ58MO UDtxzbT4oPD8mo+yukKaUUPxVo+bdQ1X3RBQ8= Received: by 10.68.73.138 with SMTP id l10mr45411459pbv.65.1326913653108; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:07:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:06:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4F15C44F.1030208@freebsd.org> <1326836797.1669.234.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F16019F.2060300@FreeBSD.org> <1326843399.1669.249.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <4F160B99.1060001@FreeBSD.org> <4F16900A.90905@FreeBSD.org> <4F170623.4080006@freebsd.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:06:52 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: SIl3URBHwKPdRvLJngDfmTQFxJY Message-ID: To: Adam Vande More Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , Andriy Gapon , Ian Lepore Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:33 -0000 On 18 January 2012 18:27, Adam Vande More wrote: > I've suggested this before without much response, but since this thread > seems to be encouraging repetition I'll give it another go.=C2=A0 ;) > > I think a bounty system would be very effective(e.g. micro-donations of > recent political campaigns) in getting many of these problems resolved.= =C2=A0 The > main problem with a bounty system is getting people to pay since certain > needs/desires lose their urgency over time.=C2=A0 To address this, the sy= stem > needs to be an escrow type setup where money is pooled until project is > complete, then payment in full is given. This has a lot of problems in itself: people would just turn around and say that bugs will not get fixed unless they get hard cash for the fix, or FreeBSD might end up in the situation where devs get paid to fix the bugs they introduced, deliberately or innocently, essentially getting paid to fix their own sloppy code, which is not that great either. -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:09:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 983DB106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:09:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500C08FC14; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:09:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3737475pbd.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:09:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IaM2sv9ce+ZCZ/P2dRQeQKIbPhNzvyb0N2M0U4M8Aa8=; b=Nqmatwi64eeLYd4d1vIHgEfO+2ILjta3f3oEOzEhT8MGMWIhDrJ9xwDnRLh490KXX5 4PIm4ZRuPRenW56GtHFoPOtSQtMlRW9BEmkr8TJvOXcxC8xjoWiFPsXp3ToVLLZUXJo8 pzmKm8f7g+k/4MyItoQp7aJ6wHQPhRzNMqunU= Received: by 10.68.73.138 with SMTP id l10mr45426342pbv.65.1326913791116; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:09:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:09:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:09:10 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 36lDY-D00p35b53C2MyZTV62WPs Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@futurecis.com, Daniel Eischen , Robert Watson , William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:09:51 -0000 On 18 January 2012 17:56, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/01/2012 19:13 Daniel Eischen said the following: >> "someone who owns a branch..." - If you cut release N.0, do not >> move -current to N+1. =C2=A0Keep -current at N for a while, prohibiting >> ABI changes, and any other risky changes. =C2=A0If a developer wants to >> do possibly disruptive work, they can do it from their own repo. > > I am totally against this. I was thinking about this and I'm with Andriy on this: such solution has no long term potential and will only serve to stagnate the innovation. This has been repeated over and over in this thread, but it's worth another mention, currently, there are effectively four tracks: 7.4, 8.2, 9.0 and -HEAD, which understandably poses a lot of difficulty for in terms of maintenance. Whatever historical reason for that is, I think a lot of people would agree that this needs changing in the near future to have a single -RELEASE branch and a single -HEAD branch, but with the understanding by the devs that just because -RELEASE has been cut, it doesn't mean that everyone, en mass, drops development on that and hops on the -HEAD bandwagon... -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:14:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D99510657A5 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:14:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6688FC14 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0IJDwOp060611; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0IJDqsA060608; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:13:52 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: References: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Andriy Gapon Subject: Re: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers - clarification X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:14:00 -0000 Hi Poul, Andriy, On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the community > and there is no way it can be any other way. > > (You can consider this a law of nature as far as voluntary organizations > of intelligent beings governed by the principle of self-interest.) I think there's been a slight misunderstanding. Of course the project is by the community and for the community, etc., and I agree that expecting it to be any other way is naive. What I was saying is that I see FreeBSD becoming an OS whose only purpose is the development of FreeBSD. Being detached from the end users is acceptable (albeit negative, I think) but being detached from the *end use* is not workable. > Traditionally successful ways of getting FreeBSD to do what you want: > > Join the community and do it yourself > Brib^H^H^H^HDonate cool hardware to community members > Brib^H^H^H^HPay cool cash to community members As you may know, I've (personally) put up several thousand dollars for specific bounties, projects and bug fixes over the last few years. Yesterday in the original thread I put up USD $50k as well as hardware, hosting and bandwidth. Cheers! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:18:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F248106566B for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187418FC12 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0IJI50L060652; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0IJI0Ve060649; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:18:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:18:00 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4F1543C2.8050404@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Andriy Gapon Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:07 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Robert Watson wrote: > > I think John gets a lot of what he wants if we just fix our release cycle. > Agreed. I still think that having two "production" releases running simultaneously really hurts focus and the end product, but that's not going to keep us from using FreeBSD. Not getting a decent five years out of a major release and not getting a minor release every 4-6 months *will* keep us from using FreeBSD. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 19:46:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF1A106564A; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:46:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08798FC18; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:46:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0IJkokf060979; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:46:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0IJkjO7060976; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:46:45 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Igor Mozolevsky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Andriy Gapon , WBentley@futurecis.com, Daniel Eischen , Robert Watson , William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:46:54 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > I was thinking about this and I'm with Andriy on this: such solution > has no long term potential and will only serve to stagnate the > innovation. This has been repeated over and over in this thread, but > it's worth another mention, currently, there are effectively four > tracks: 7.4, 8.2, 9.0 and -HEAD, which understandably poses a lot of > difficulty for in terms of maintenance. Whatever historical reason for > that is, I think a lot of people would agree that this needs changing > in the near future to have a single -RELEASE branch and a single -HEAD > branch, but with the understanding by the devs that just because > -RELEASE has been cut, it doesn't mean that everyone, en mass, drops > development on that and hops on the -HEAD bandwagon... And as long as we're repeating ... :) Since 9.0 is already out of the bag, I think a decent approach would be to fizzle out 8.x on the current timeline/trajectory (maybe 8.4 in 6-8 months, and maybe 8.5 in a year or so), then: - EOL 7 - mark 8 as legacy - mark 9 as the _only_ production release - release 10.0 in January 2017 And in the meantime, begin the every 4-6 month minor releases that we all agree can occur with 9. By Jan 2017, you get to 9.12 or 9.14 or so. This is nice because no upheaval needs to happen with 7 and 8, and interested developers do not get kneecapped vis a vis 9 - they can just keep going where they were going with it, and the only real change is that 10 is pushed out a long ways, and people[1] get to really sink their teeth into 9. [1] *both* developers and end users From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 20:21:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118A7106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:21:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@feld.me) Received: from mwi1.coffeenet.org (unknown [IPv6:2607:f4e0:100:300::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EFF8FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:21:04 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=feld.me; s=blargle; h=In-Reply-To:Message-Id:From:Mime-Version:Date:References:Subject:To:Content-Type; bh=LJRlV0SK06vonekfOPQS21JGphWCFeBZAhMR1BmACSs=; b=lw02tuw7ll77Hd8jP6e2tmuQj4J0BNoyUqReJWM/RiRiz7A6mF6Of2PP49rv6Iznm+xbjpn+Av7Ak53apSlE8ceRGIwHsLNzvt8M8E6obUb3JkdjZ0QUZZID0pL2Spge; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mwi1.coffeenet.org) by mwi1.coffeenet.org with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Rnc0E-0000tK-Gd for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:21:04 -0600 Received: from feld@feld.me by mwi1.coffeenet.org (Archiveopteryx 3.1.4) with esmtpsa id 1326918056-2798-2797/5/8; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:20:56 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:20:56 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Felder Message-Id: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.61 (FreeBSD) X-SA-Score: -1.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:21:05 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:46:45 -0600, John Kozubik wrote: > > And as long as we're repeating ... :) > > Since 9.0 is already out of the bag, I think a decent approach would be > to fizzle out 8.x on the current timeline/trajectory (maybe 8.4 in 6-8 > months, and maybe 8.5 in a year or so), then: > > - EOL 7 > - mark 8 as legacy > - mark 9 as the _only_ production release > - release 10.0 in January 2017 > > And in the meantime, begin the every 4-6 month minor releases that we > all agree can occur with 9. By Jan 2017, you get to 9.12 or 9.14 or so. > > This is nice because no upheaval needs to happen with 7 and 8, and > interested developers do not get kneecapped vis a vis 9 - they can just > keep going where they were going with it, and the only real change is > that 10 is pushed out a long ways, and people[1] get to really sink > their teeth into 9. > What are the policies for changes though? Are we stuck with 9.0's feature set for 5 years? Will we have to wait 5 years to get a stable release of FreeBSD with KMS/GEM? That work is unfinished and didn't make 9.0; it's also a huge changeset. How will things like this be dealt with? Five years is a long time for the next stable release if we have a policy to not import major changes from -CURRENT. It would be devastating to so many users. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 20:27:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40F11065672 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:27:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 172-17-198-245.globalsuite.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC19150B69; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:27:10 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:27:10 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kozubik References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:27:11 -0000 On 01/18/2012 11:46, John Kozubik wrote: > - mark 9 as the _only_ production release While I understand your motivation, I am not sure this is a workable goal when combined with the goal that others have expressed of longer timelines for the support of a given branch. Speaking from personal experience, once a service is released on a given platform the costs of migration can be significant. And if what I have is working well and only needs the occasional bug/security fix my motivations for migration are near zero. So the tradeoffs then become more frequent major releases to get new features, vs. longer support for a given release branch. Let's take 5 years as a reasonable time period for supporting a branch. Waiting that long between major releases would significantly stifle the ability to add new features that require breaks to the [AK][BP]I. It would also inhibit our ability to do revolutionary architectural changes such as moving to clang as the primary supported compiler. What I've proposed instead is a new major release every 2 1/2 years, where the new release coincides with the EOL of the oldest production release. That way we have a 5-year cycle of support for each major branch, and no more than 2 production branches extant at one time. History tells us that 2 production branches is a goal we can achieve, with the focus shifting more heavily towards only bug/security fixes in the oldest branch after the new production release branch is cut. If we combine that with the ideas that are being put forward about teams that "own" a production branch, and a more frequent stripped-down release process, I think this is a very workable model. Doug -- It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short. Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 20:42:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F8FE106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:42:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt.hauglustaine@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com (mail-vx0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F249F8FC14 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:42:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so4704520vcb.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:42:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Lq7w6ykaE026KlDOpK1hIbB/iiw1xU3tAwF43FPwXzU=; b=GgYbJo6SKXlvCWlEdB+LlPnOJHLViUu7EM4IcNh8sxeY1cOtcHLWAFa1xAe4oP7MBt JjxRInqQ4mmNVDN8N/X6+SCVOdnUwuSTWxBzc5ZjtT8TzopX5dzFMA/BOHU6vzWNYS5H 9dpKnfDHfjvddjRHqIj8q1Yyycv1dXTUhkCFI= Received: by 10.220.149.68 with SMTP id s4mr13967644vcv.43.1326919350239; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:42:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.21.80 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:41:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Matthieu Hauglustaine Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:41:49 +0100 Message-ID: To: ss griffon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2 years student project X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:42:31 -0000 Hi, Alexander, thanks your for your advice. We were thinking of finding a "mentor" in the GSOC way, but we understand that it will be more productive and surely more educational to just ask our questions on the mailing list. We will do so. We've had some time to look around the links and ideas everyone proposed, and we are strongly interested in working in the networking area of the system. "SCPS, Space Communication Protocol Standards" is our first project choice for now. We believe this project to be suitable for a 2 years student project, and low level network programming is a really interesting domain. The current user-land implementation seems enough, however, we hope a SCPS protocol implementation in the FreeBSD kernel to be useful. It would be one of the first OS to support these protocols, and a kernel-level implementation is still better than a user-level one. We will keep you posted on our project's approval, Bye, Matthieu Hauglustaine On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:24 PM, ss griffon wrote= : > On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Matthieu Hauglustaine > wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> We are a group of french CS students at Epitech, currently in 3rd year. >> As part of our formation we have to start working on our end of >> scholarship project. We will have 2 years to complete this project, >> and the only obligation we have is to be "innovative". >> The first step is to submit our subject for validation, and this must >> be done for the end of the month, >> >> We would really like to take this opportunity to contribute to the >> FreeBSD project. >> Our formation is focused exclusively on the "learn by doing it >> yourself" philosophy and we have many projects in different domains >> behind us (mainly in c and c++). >> >> We've spent some time looking around the ideas presented on this page: >> http://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage. >> Lots of these projects are extremely interesting and, among others, >> "porting HFS+" and "Space Communication Protocol Standards" are on our >> list of potential projects. >> Maybe their are other unlisted ideas that would be nice student >> projects while still useful to the community? >> >> However, what should be the first move here? Who should we contact? >> Would someone with more experience in FeeBSD development take the role >> of "mentor"? >> >> We are hoping for some guidance so we could be as effective as possible. >> >> Regards, >> >> Matthieu Hauglustaine >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" > > In my experience, working with virtualization is very fun and > rewarding. =A0Perhaps, working to get Windows or Linux running on BHyve > (FreeBSD hypervisor) would be a fun project. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 21:00:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6319106566C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:00:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com (mail-tul01m020-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1348FC0C; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:00:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obcwo16 with SMTP id wo16so6011123obc.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:00:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dIErD3Ue8JCBs/J3ieh3v2KyHiv9EzJsPge57OJP/rs=; b=Z2EJmWTe4ThEu8ItLVdSjhG9bmxgXFrr0iUzYKZAdre0MImZPOpfMoT08PQZlmqqIR z3sIwrY9BUgCQndaB3ehFvNO5jp7ERK5ax+wWqGvGznuLKKiwjm0EyjKSj6LINGcZaGi jJJk2MGFX7ubetVOGAv/r5qh9u6xKmO7lbtVs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.16.33 with SMTP id c1mr20405160obd.47.1326919076057; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.70.229 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:37:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:37:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: John Kozubik Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Andriy Gapon Subject: Re: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers - clarification X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:00:18 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:13 PM, John Kozubik wrote: > > Hi Poul, Andriy, > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > FreeBSD has _always_ been a project by the community, for the community >> and there is no way it can be any other way. >> >> (You can consider this a law of nature as far as voluntary organizations >> of intelligent beings governed by the principle of self-interest.) >> > > > I think there's been a slight misunderstanding. Of course the project is > by the community and for the community, etc., and I agree that expecting it > to be any other way is naive. > > What I was saying is that I see FreeBSD becoming an OS whose only purpose > is the development of FreeBSD. > > Being detached from the end users is acceptable (albeit negative, I think) > but being detached from the *end use* is not workable. > > > Traditionally successful ways of getting FreeBSD to do what you want: >> >> Join the community and do it yourself >> Brib^H^H^H^HDonate cool hardware to community members >> Brib^H^H^H^HPay cool cash to community members >> > > > As you may know, I've (personally) put up several thousand dollars for > specific bounties, projects and bug fixes over the last few years. > > Yesterday in the original thread I put up USD $50k as well as hardware, > hosting and bandwidth. > > Cheers! > > I think , there is a necessity about a legal coordinating establishment , such as , for example , FreeBSD Users Foundation , formed by commercial entities using FreeBSD for their operations ( i.e. , their living are based on FreeBSD usage ) , other voluntary contributing organizations and / or persons . Such an establishment will prepare user needs , possible solution steps , problems , how to remedy them , and like issues related to FreeBSD evolution . At the same time , it will hire full-time computer/software/operating systems specialists to manage/coordinate FreeBSD development , testing , release , maintenance activities . A software system such FreeBSD in its present largeness can NOT be maintained by only voluntary efforts . To support expenses , this establishment will have a budget . Otherwise it will not be possible to hire full-time specialists / secretaries . >From messages , such a full-time person assignment has been suggested by iXSystems which is a very important contribution and starting step . This establishment will collect requests , patches from FreeBSD operating companies to apply to central source repositories . Testing , final acceptance of changes will be performed by interested parties in a coordinated way . Pursuing a local software replication of FreeBSD and trying to maintain it is a very difficult task and at the end an important burden to carrying company . A fraction of such efforts transferred to a central coordinating entity will be more fruitful to every user . It is not necessary to hire many persons full time , but only a minimum number of specialists to coordinate the development and maintenance efforts and other tasks required to be carried by them . The other parts will be supplied again by the voluntary developers , BUT with support from the coordinating establishment because , again from messages , it is understood that many developers having necessary skills do NOT have necessary hardware or available help on demand from others to test and improve the parts they are developing . Another important point is to pay some amount of incentives to developers for significant work times ( they have life to pursue and family to feed ) to compensate their consumed time from their rest periods . It seems that the commercial companies are using FreeBSD for servers . Without a wide personal user population , it will be very difficult to pursue living of FreeBSD . This establishment should also improve user interface of FreeBSD to make it more acceptable by the individual persons . With forty years of computing experience , still I am NOT able to use neither FreeBSD nor PC-BSD for my daily works . It is installed in a computer ( 9.0 , amd64 ) but not used because it is not usable ( Gnome or KDE not working sufficiently fast , the same slowness when Debian/FreeBSD kernel version is used ) . For each installation , it is necessary to set an important number of parameters ( in FreeBSD ) to make it work , which none of them is required in Linux ( Fedora , OpenSuse , Debian , Mandriva/Mageia , and many others ) . The above problems may be solved , by generating two different releases : Server , Desktop . Since 8.2 amd64 , PC-BSD is NOT usable , in an effect , I downloaded 9.0 Release , but even I did NOT try it , because no one of the release candidates worked even up to boot . I think , it is a waste of time to burn a DVD and try it with very significant probability of failure . I think , PC-BSD requires more testing on real hardware . It seems that , before releases , even it is not installed a single time on a bare metal computer ( opinion developed form existing installations ) . Saying "Whatever is suitable for you , use it" is NOT a solution . There is big amount of very high quality effort invested into FreeBSD , but it is unusable by a wide population due to user interface settings . I am NOT blaming the developers because such efforts to improve user interface requires experiments , researches , and EXPENSES . It is NOT a right and fair policy to expect such activities from developers . They are doing what they can do in a best way . There is a necessity to support their activities from the point on where they need help . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:05:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1593106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:05:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCE38FC16 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:05:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0IM5gIr035179 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:05:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <4F174236.2010006@rawbw.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:05:42 -0800 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111226 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: compiler configuration regression in 9.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:05:43 -0000 One port build (www/neon29) fails for me on 9.0 (i386, freshly upgraded from 8.2), configure fails with the message: "cpp: error trying to exec 'cc1': execvp: No such file or directory" I tracked in down to the PATH variable passed to cpp, when PATH begins with /usr/local/bin, cpp breaks in 9.0. But when the same /usr/local/bin is in the end of the path it works fine. I also noticed that in 9.0 gcc is 4.2.1 and in 8.2 gcc is 4.2.2, which may be related. What might be a problem with this? Yuri --- testcase --- #!/bin/sh echo >> conftest.c << __END__ /* confdefs.h */ #ifdef __STDC__ # include #else # include #endif __END__ # BREAKS 9.0, works in 8.2 export PATH="/usr/local/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin" # WORKS everywhere #export PATH="/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin" cpp -I/usr/local/include conftest.c From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:16:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D41106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:16:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jilles@stack.nl) Received: from mx1.stack.nl (relay02.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1778FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:16:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from snail.stack.nl (snail.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::131]) by mx1.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2AE35B12F; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:16:30 +0100 (CET) Received: by snail.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1677) id A974528468; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:16:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:16:30 +0100 From: Jilles Tjoelker To: Matthew Story Message-ID: <20120118221630.GA97471@stack.nl> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: intent of tab-completion in /bin/sh in 9.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:16:32 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:00:44AM -0500, Matthew Story wrote: > Just noticed that tab-completion in /bin/sh has been added in 9.0 > (verified that it is not there in 8.0, dunno if it's there in 8.2, > could probably go digging to figure it out). In addition to the > command history via : (which is present in 8.0) FreeBSD sh > is now actually a pretty usable interactive shell. I also noticed > that the following bit has been removed from the sh(1): > This version has many features which make it appear similar in some > respects to the Korn shell, but it is not a Korn shell clone like pdksh. That sentence is an implicit comparison to the Bourne shell. When it was written, many other Un*x variants had a version of the Bourne shell as /bin/sh, and it was not taken for granted to have things like $(...), $((...)) and ${...#...} in a /bin/sh. Nowadays, this is often taken for granted; the last OS to have a Bourne shell as /bin/sh is probably Solaris 10 (11 has ksh93). On the contrary, our /bin/sh is minimalistic compared to many other shells used in that role, like bash, pdksh, mksh and ksh93. It (the 9.0 version) has only slightly more features than dash or NetBSD's sh, and dash has instead some other features. > Just wondering if the general direction here is attempting to provide a > minimal POSIX shell, that is useful enough interactively to become the > default root shell (supplanting csh)? Or if there is just a general trend > towards adopting more of the ksh feature-set. POSIX itself has gradually adopted ksh features, so seeing more of them in future is not unlikely. Most of the new language features in 9.0 are either from POSIX.1-2008 or on the roadmap for a new version of POSIX (in collaboration with other shell authors). Adding other ksh features is not very likely. It is certainly possible to use /bin/sh as root's shell, but the distributed master.passwd entry will probably continue to use /bin/csh for a long time. Some plans for sh in 10.0 are in this mailing list post: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2011-December/011976.html -- Jilles Tjoelker From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:31:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6C2106566C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:31:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@exonetric.com) Received: from relay0.exonetric.net (relay0.exonetric.net [82.138.248.161]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B758FC18 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:31:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.24] (unknown [78.86.207.85]) by relay0.exonetric.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32345722F for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:31:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Blackman Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:31:03 +0000 In-Reply-To: To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: <92707DFD-08E9-4797-A219-B7AD5B6AD312@exonetric.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:31:04 -0000 On 18 Jan 2012, at 11:47, Robert Watson wrote: >=20 >=20 > It strikes me that the first basic plan would be a release schedule, = however. :-) 7.4 - no further development 8.3 - Mar 2012 9.1 - May 2012 8.4 - July 2012 9.2 - Sep 2012=20 8.5 - Nov 2012 9.3 - Jan 2013 8.6 - Mar 2013=20 9.4 - May 2013 8.7 - July 2013 - Final release 9.5 - Sep 2013 10.0 - Nov 2013 9.6 - Jan 2014 10.1 - Mar 2014 Although, I'm not sure a release every two months would be practical. - Mark= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:50:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3AF106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:50:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837CA8FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:50:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14so848158dad.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:50:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=elrtbqU0BAGvLXRZsddIgaPMPsd3XRN5+9Cb6W5k9UE=; b=Q4q3nRbP8JjBsreKomXXU9m5ryFjcXQkgWImf03nLvV/m6IsWTwp87H2vX9sMnRjih 56QswCUv5jgIrayHdEbQPaisp3CgzpZ2OFN0FBJs5N6aN+6Sb1JiMG1gAIhpGA//Xk26 3KNCON8+ow2POwPDBmdUVT2U9HSdR4IcWdRC4= Received: by 10.68.212.73 with SMTP id ni9mr47388099pbc.82.1326927058119; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:50:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:50:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <92707DFD-08E9-4797-A219-B7AD5B6AD312@exonetric.com> References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> <92707DFD-08E9-4797-A219-B7AD5B6AD312@exonetric.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:50:17 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: KKg7_oEkL6ZlPzZs-62Y7nW3-l8 Message-ID: To: Mark Blackman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:50:58 -0000 On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote: > 10.0 - Nov 2013 I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not on some arbitrary date... -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:53:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376BA1065677 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:53:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@exonetric.com) Received: from relay0.exonetric.net (relay0.exonetric.net [82.138.248.161]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB0B8FC1D for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:53:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.24] (unknown [78.86.207.85]) by relay0.exonetric.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0312857007; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:53:23 +0000 (GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Mark Blackman In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:53:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9A11510C-CEC7-463F-9479-CA6183C7359E@exonetric.com> References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> <92707DFD-08E9-4797-A219-B7AD5B6AD312@exonetric.com> To: Igor Mozolevsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:53:25 -0000 On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:50, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote: >=20 >> 10.0 - Nov 2013 >=20 > I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not on > some arbitrary date=85 You can always redefine the feature-set to meet the date. :) - Mark From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:59:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7958106564A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0155A8FC21 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id AAA05813; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:59:08 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RneTE-00095q-M2; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:59:08 +0200 Message-ID: <4F174EBB.30001@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:59:07 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer References: <5000.1326883643@critter.freebsd.dk> <4F16A8C6.9070709@FreeBSD.org> <20120118103917.21d9751b@mikmeyer-vm-fedora> In-Reply-To: <20120118103917.21d9751b@mikmeyer-vm-fedora> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:12 -0000 on 18/01/2012 20:39 Mike Meyer said the following: > There were developers in the community for whom seeing people using > their code was the priority goal. Trust me, there are still a lot of developers like that even now. The problem is not with the developers, it is with the users! They got spoiled. They don't want just the code anymore. They want QA, they want stability, they want schedules... :-) -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 22:59:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29051065786 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F5F8FC1D for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14so853111dad.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:59:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=minX+S2aic8U0/1FLD5+nLiPUeCo9VZJjdH+0F6F1Jc=; b=K+ieBzDbJrGxTTuXdiiucuITX3cFtkCB4jk49TTJ97CysASmDPaMRWKcUhnRMVTkgG onOhD7GilzdG+c6iqdll+BVuWO0QG8huqdPO6dhOHSpeMGJxhAH/FWyBoxkdZx2MZIKe zcEHQjOFwKkNJ+79sWUoxseKuO0mnLlCCI6S4= Received: by 10.68.73.6 with SMTP id h6mr46714302pbv.116.1326927581124; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:59:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:59:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9A11510C-CEC7-463F-9479-CA6183C7359E@exonetric.com> References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> <92707DFD-08E9-4797-A219-B7AD5B6AD312@exonetric.com> <9A11510C-CEC7-463F-9479-CA6183C7359E@exonetric.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:00 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DZQD6qTZrbMu2waIyEqffCM3daA Message-ID: To: Mark Blackman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:59:42 -0000 On 18 January 2012 22:53, Mark Blackman wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:50, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > >> On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote: >> >>> 10.0 - Nov 2013 >> >> I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not on >> some arbitrary date=E2=80=A6 > > You can always redefine the feature-set to meet the date. :) Yes, but there's a difference between releasing because it's the right thing to do now vs releasing because it's about time... -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 23:05:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B7E1065675 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:05:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark@exonetric.com) Received: from relay0.exonetric.net (relay0.exonetric.net [82.138.248.161]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FA68FC15 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:05:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.24] (unknown [78.86.207.85]) by relay0.exonetric.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0DF5722F; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:05:56 +0000 (GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Mark Blackman In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:05:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5ACFFFB9-8286-4FE4-A2F3-9845914A130C@exonetric.com> References: <4F16094E.2080108@FreeBSD.org> <92707DFD-08E9-4797-A219-B7AD5B6AD312@exonetric.com> <9A11510C-CEC7-463F-9479-CA6183C7359E@exonetric.com> To: Igor Mozolevsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:05:58 -0000 On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:59, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 18 January 2012 22:53, Mark Blackman wrote: >>=20 >> On 18 Jan 2012, at 22:50, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >>=20 >>> On 18 January 2012 22:31, Mark Blackman wrote: >>>=20 >>>> 10.0 - Nov 2013 >>>=20 >>> I think 10.0 should be released based on feature-readiness and not = on >>> some arbitrary date=85 >>=20 >> You can always redefine the feature-set to meet the date. :) >=20 > Yes, but there's a difference between releasing because it's the right > thing to do now vs releasing because it's about time=85 The terse-ness of the e-mail should have told you it wasn't particularly serious. :) However, it was based around 3 minor releases per year, fitting whatever features make sense, FSVO "sense", into each one, giving HEAD a bit=20 over two years to gestate into something you might one day bet the farm=20= on, which isn't a million miles from what happens anyway. - Mark=20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 23:39:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6251065670 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:39:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428A28FC0C for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-174-50-4-38.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [174.50.4.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A6CA37B4E4; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:39:32 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 5DAF41774D; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:39:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:39:31 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Mark Felder Message-ID: <20120118233931.GL509@over-yonder.net> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21-fullermd.4 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:39:33 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 02:20:56PM -0600 I heard the voice of Mark Felder, and lo! it spake thus: > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:46:45 -0600, John Kozubik wrote: > > This is nice because no upheaval needs to happen with 7 and 8, and > > interested developers do not get kneecapped vis a vis 9 - they can > > just keep going where they were going with it, and the only real > > change is that 10 is pushed out a long ways, and people[1] get to > > really sink their teeth into 9. > > > > What are the policies for changes though? Are we stuck with 9.0's > feature set for 5 years? Will we have to wait 5 years to get a > stable release of FreeBSD with KMS/GEM? That work is unfinished and > didn't make 9.0; it's also a huge changeset. How will things like > this be dealt with? Five years is a long time for the next stable > release if we have a policy to not import major changes from > -CURRENT. It would be devastating to so many users. This is where the problem comes in. As I read it, John's problem in a sentence is "I just got onto 8.x, and it's already shutting down!" If the problem is "stable trains don't live long enough", why, the solution's simple; make stable trains live longer! The problem is, there are unpleasant tradeoffs every direction we try to go with that. We can: 1) Just make each one live longer. Of course, that means that pretty soon we're maintaining 3 and 4 -STABLE branches all the time. Yeah... "maintaining" is sure to be an overstatement in that case. Even if we had massively more manpower, the project management complexity would still eat us alive. This is just a non-starter. 2) Wait longer between making new ones. This is what John is suggesting above, but it has two related huge drawbacks. The a) As Mark said, is that it means any significant new features or architectures come out a couple years after they're already obsolete. To pick one example, from 8->9 we have the new eventtimers stuff, which drastically reduces the number of clock interrupts. As we get 4 and 8 and 16 and higher core counts becoming common, that gets very important, as servicing 32k interrupts/second while completely idle is really bad for system efficiency. If we pushed 9 out to 2 years or so from now, we're telling people "sure, just eat the overhead until then". Whoops. b) The other big drawback is as I've said in other mails; it turns every major release into a giant watershed of everything changing, which makes upgrading systems across it a *HUGE* amount of work, and *VERY* risky. Again, this had an impact in the 4/5 days; upgrading to 5 was so risky and so different, that lots of people stayed on 4 long after it was out. I sure don't want to deal with that sort of divide again. The more frequent major release steps are, the smaller and easier they are. Now, you could say "Well, 2(a) just won't be a problem because we'll merge more stuff back". But now all you're doing is making that -STABLE branch _less_ stable, compromising the reason people are using it in the first place. Now, sure, 'stable' isn't a binary condition, and we can always re-evaluate just where we want to stick the needle. Maybe we could be a bit more aggressive about the size of changes we merge back. But I don't believe that we could get _near_ enough backporting to alleviate the time between the big/dangerous new feature landings, without seriously compromising the stability of -STABLE. Or there's another option, a variant of (1), where we extend the lifetime of some major release trains, but not all. Every second, or every third. Then we can have a longer life, without ballooning out the number of trains being supported. But that has big drawbacks too; the problems of backporting aren't just the number of branches to port too, but how far back they are. Backporting from -CURRENT to 9 right now is almost trivial. Going to 8 isn't too bad for most things. To 7, it's getting to be a much bigger deal. If 7 were an "extended support" train, with 2 years of active support left on it, not only would backporting things get inordinately expensive from accumulated differences, but they'd get very _risky_ too. They slip from "backport" into "rewrite for", and now we've seriously compromised the stability of the branch, undermining our own goals. Now, I don't suggest the current state is perfect. There are certainly relatively minor tweaks like "more common minor releases" that could improve things in some quarters. And they're local enough that they can conceptually be done without rippling out and messing with everything else in the project. But trying to do major shifts aren't as simple as "just make major releases less often"; the tweaks you can do like that all have _very_ seriously side effects, make a lot of things much worse, and would require a lot of _very_ careful rebalancing of everything else to avoid a significant overall lose. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 18 23:45:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4EC1065672 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:45:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8671E8FC0A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:45:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so1698873lah.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:45:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u25bPkUWsuAXGyCl+2CjPQlkryEgfrlRbnx9djrUL+o=; b=asAII/cZ21n948ZQ7dOAx2nwvOyar+27NDJP6KhJ90JehOWfw2lxxyEB3/JIqSM5MK ZNwEKt+ahChjsCf2y5JrlLlVc+gb5wqWgRJSVEBS6MMFAIktFTB9fgyIS73edfLHnbqD 47dIkbl5HA0YbMRo42FZIvEPh6ULch02rExCc= Received: by 10.152.133.229 with SMTP id pf5mr11557694lab.18.1326930348121; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:45:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.21.168 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:45:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F174236.2010006@rawbw.com> References: <4F174236.2010006@rawbw.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:45:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: Yuri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: compiler configuration regression in 9.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:45:50 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Yuri wrote: > One port build (www/neon29) fails for me on 9.0 (i386, freshly upgraded f= rom > 8.2), configure fails with the message: "cpp: error trying to exec 'cc1': > execvp: No such file or directory" > I tracked in down to the PATH variable passed to cpp, when PATH begins wi= th > /usr/local/bin, cpp breaks in 9.0. But when the same /usr/local/bin is in > the end of the path it works fine. > I also noticed that in 9.0 gcc is 4.2.1 and in 8.2 gcc is 4.2.2, which ma= y > be related. > What might be a problem with this? > > Yuri > > --- testcase --- > #!/bin/sh > > echo >> conftest.c << __END__ > /* confdefs.h */ > #ifdef __STDC__ > # include > #else > # include > #endif > __END__ > > # BREAKS 9.0, works in 8.2 > export PATH=3D"/usr/local/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bi= n" > # WORKS everywhere > #export PATH=3D"/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin" > > cpp =C2=A0-I/usr/local/include =C2=A0conftest.c pkg_info -W /usr/local/bin/cpp --=20 Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 00:00:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E59106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:00:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F94A8FC19 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:00:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbdx13 with SMTP id x13so3920335pbd.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=XYr4Janpu6nps6yDAuZYaCCfD7z6MBkiLCEb8CSsSFs=; b=F/KU0UdAYyIuRjhgAJa/iSL5vm4lz/ZpKUDsMwSXkWKgt1MJg492YaCmFGsybkBvDq cwNKIeSXucojelLVtF0z65WFHxi+j9BTo1K17xbFbfNXfVRlB5K6NfOP8LrYlqZCCWmV e76i1ftcIZdT5fEF4FWV6Z3aqDpkxpCO0gpEo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.189.131 with SMTP id gi3mr1720218pbc.12.1326931208022; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.113.1 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:07 -0800 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:00:08 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 01/18/2012 11:46, John Kozubik wrote: >> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release > > What I've proposed instead is a new major release every 2 1/2 years, > where the new release coincides with the EOL of the oldest production > release. That way we have a 5-year cycle of support for each major > branch, and no more than 2 production branches extant at one time. > > History tells us that 2 production branches is a goal we can achieve, > with the focus shifting more heavily towards only bug/security fixes in > the oldest branch after the new production release branch is cut. If we > combine that with the ideas that are being put forward about teams that > "own" a production branch, and a more frequent stripped-down release > process, I think this is a very workable model. This is similar to how Debian works (the other OS we use the most often). They have "testing" (aka -CURRENT) where all the new development takes place, that will eventually become the next major release; "stable" (aka production -RELEASE) which sees minor (actually, point) releases every few months; and "oldstable" (aka legacy -RELEASE) which sees no development beyond major security/bug fixes. There's approximately 2 years between major releases, at which time "oldstable" is EOL'd, "stable" becomes "oldstable", "testing" becomes "stable", and development continue with the new "testing". I can see something like that working for FreeBSD, as you've outlined it above. It seems to work well for them, although it's not a perfect comparison since the Debian devs don't do a lot of development on their own, it's more integration and testing work with software from a bunch of other, independent projects. What would be really nice, though, to help with the above, is a branched ports tree that followed the same release schedule. Perhaps it's time to dust off my coding skills and jump back into port maintenance. -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 00:00:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6ED106573E for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:00:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-iy0-f196.google.com (mail-iy0-f196.google.com [209.85.210.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30638FC23 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:00:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so1191658iag.7 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.170.3 with SMTP id d3mr18391099icz.7.1326931238104; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mikmeyer-vm-fedora (dhcp-173-37-11-196.cisco.com. [173.37.11.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id or2sm35242023igc.5.2012.01.18.16.00.37 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:00:03 -0800 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120118160003.4e5ba5c5@mikmeyer-vm-fedora> In-Reply-To: <20120118233931.GL509@over-yonder.net> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> <20120118233931.GL509@over-yonder.net> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10 (GTK+ 2.24.7; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:00:39 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:39:31 -0600 "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > Or there's another option, a variant of (1), where we extend the > lifetime of some major release trains, but not all. Every second, or > every third. Then we can have a longer life, without ballooning out > the number of trains being supported. But that has big drawbacks too; > the problems of backporting aren't just the number of branches to port > too, but how far back they are. Backporting from -CURRENT to 9 right > now is almost trivial. Going to 8 isn't too bad for most things. To > 7, it's getting to be a much bigger deal. If 7 were an "extended > support" train, with 2 years of active support left on it, not only > would backporting things get inordinately expensive from accumulated > differences, but they'd get very _risky_ too. They slip from > "backport" into "rewrite for", and now we've seriously compromised the > stability of the branch, undermining our own goals. Let's look at this again. And look at why people want longer term support. In my experience, they want this because they want security updates/bug fixes for production systems. If LTS changes that were limited to that after the normal support period, and restricted to cases where the effort was warranted by the severity of the issue, it would seriously mitigate the backporting issues. Of course, from reading this discussion, it's clear that there are people who want both long term support *and* new features (at least in the form of new device drivers). It may well be that you get to choose any two of: - Software that is very cheap or free. - Software that is supported over long time periods. - Software that gets frequent updates with new features. Given that this is a volunteer-driven effort, the first is pretty much a given, so you can only get one of the other two. Unless you're willing to lose the first by maintaining your own releases as others have suggested/described. Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA14F106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CD548FC15 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:57:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 12135 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jan 2012 00:57:01 -0000 Received: from 67.206.186.240 by rms-us007.v300.gmx.net with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:57 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120119005658.218280@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: DQ9lbyA03zOlNR3dAHAh885+IGRvb8DP Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:57:02 -0000 John writes: > - EOL 7 > - mark 8 as legacy > - mark 9 as the _only_ production release > - release 10.0 in January 2017 Until a few days ago 8 was the latest, shinest release. So you want to suddenly demote it all the way down to legacy? I thought the goal was to have releases that can be used for a long time? On the one hand, many users want/need releases to have a long lifetime. On the other hand, we want to be able to start a new release when some new major feature is mature enough. If these features come out often enough, we end up with a lot of releases to support, and supporting a lot of releases uses up a lot of time and effort. Assuming that a lot more resources aren't going to magically appear, perhaps the solution is to ramp down the level of support for older releases. 7 - legacy (only gets fixes for security, panic/hang, data loss) 8 - supported (security, panic/hang, data loss bugs, plus others as requested) 9 - very supported (most improvements that aren't massively disruptive) stable - not quite bleeding edge, not a "release" yet, not recommended for production, brave users can try out new features current - bleeding edge The legacy level shouldn't have many fixes, so it shouldn't take too much time and effort. It should be possible to support multiple "legacy" releases. If fixes only get backported to "supported" releases when users request it, the amount of time and effort may be low enough? I don't have a good idea of how many requests would be made. If the requests are infrequent enough, it might be possible to support more than one "supported" release. (Better names for "supported" and "very supported" would be welcome.) A time based schedule can make sense if there are a lot of small changes. It doesn't work as well with fewer large changes. If the clock says it is time for a new major release but none of the major new features are ready, it doesn't make sense to do a major release. A time based schedule might make more sense for minor and point releases? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 00:58:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429CD1065673 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:58:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.mail.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF3D78FC08 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 8293 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jan 2012 00:58:22 -0000 Received: from 67.206.186.240 by rms-us004.v300.gmx.net with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:58:19 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120119005820.218250@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: +w9lbyU03zOlNR3dAHAho85+IGRvbwAO Subject: Giant lock gone? (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:58:25 -0000 > The original goal for 5.0 was to completely remove the Giant lock (and > do other cool SMP-related stuff). Eventually it was realized that this > was too big a goal to fully accomplish in 5.0 (albeit too late in the > process) and the goal was changed to do the basic framework for the new > SMP model; and lay the groundwork for "some things run under Giant for > now, and we'll remove it from them ASAP." That actually turned out to > last through 6, making 7 the realization of what 5.0 was supposed to be. So you are saying that the Giant lock was completely removed in 7.0? 8.2 says: atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 01:46:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F010106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:46:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthewstory@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com (mail-vx0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F0B8FC18 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:46:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so4977542vcb.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:46:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=2jGqz4tTbVF8+vjK8m0TDd/9t9hWicRsaUs1vLls6i0=; b=MSUxNRCZSKxf6gF1AyYk5HTau776imBIhsOlV+YrMxWiLDI8Qar1kSWUeBX+nWdHn5 TAMKYfG+tcOFzAT+31sonUsVOX7L31Mjmb+kWiuQbBY2ETtnHTYvJd7orpUtqUWO4g42 NRbTRKSNv1fubSpVZqQjebDq2hylEx8UA0mMo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.231.131 with SMTP id jq3mr13984482vcb.44.1326937578621; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.159.69 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:46:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120118221630.GA97471@stack.nl> References: <20120118221630.GA97471@stack.nl> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:46:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Matthew Story To: Jilles Tjoelker , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: Re: intent of tab-completion in /bin/sh in 9.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:46:19 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jilles Tjoelker wrote: > [...snip] > > On the contrary, our /bin/sh is minimalistic compared to many other > shells used in that role, like bash, pdksh, mksh and ksh93. It (the 9.0 > version) has only slightly more features than dash or NetBSD's sh, and > dash has instead some other features. > I prefer FreeBSD sh over these others for its minimalism (although I do like dash as well), particularly when not being used interactively. > [...snip] > > POSIX itself has gradually adopted ksh features, so seeing more of them > in future is not unlikely. Most of the new language features in 9.0 are > either from POSIX.1-2008 or on the roadmap for a new version of POSIX > (in collaboration with other shell authors). Tab completion is a welcome addition, I was unaware that this had been (or is slated to be) added to the POSIX specification. This makes far more sense than my proposed explanations. Thanks for the clarification. > Some plans for sh in 10.0 are in this mailing list post: > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2011-December/011976.html Let me know what (if anything) I can do anything to help with the continued development of sh, cheers. > > > -- > Jilles Tjoelker > -- regards, matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 01:47:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B731065672 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:47:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C83DB8FC18 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:47:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 11881 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jan 2012 00:57:37 -0000 Received: from 67.206.186.240 by rms-us005.v300.gmx.net with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:57:33 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: KA9lbyA03zOlNR3dAHAhws5+IGRvb4Dp Subject: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:47:30 -0000 Andriy writes: > And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us manage to do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up. Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developers to get them to fix PRs, let's look for carrots to make fixing PRs more appealing. Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ... Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/year Sheldon......150...............90........................72 Leonard......131..............110........................67 Howard.......104...............20........................52 Raj...........80...............80........................80 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 01:56:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EF9106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3EE8FC1D for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:56:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa04 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa04.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0J1PmLZ026169; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:38 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa04.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12e7fsra1n-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:38 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:37 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Dieter BSD'" , References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:57:05 -0800 Message-ID: <04b001ccd64d$a58c4140$f0a4c3c0$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKI6chsyZpOwfKh+7tT0Wwjt7UmoJSaxo5Q Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-18_10:2012-01-17, 2012-01-18, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cc: Subject: RE: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:56:49 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Dieter BSD > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:58 PM > To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) >=20 > Andriy writes: > > And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. >=20 > Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us ma= nage to > do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up. >=20 > Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developers to get them to fix= PRs, let's > look for carrots to make fixing PRs more appealing. >=20 > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ... >=20 +1 (!) But careful not to incentivize those that raise PRs to split a single PR in= to multiples purely for metrics. We probably won't care that this might also incentivize committers to raise= PRs for the commits they would normally make without one (wait, does that = happen?) > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats >=20 > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/ye= ar > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > Raj...........80...............80........................80 +1 --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 02:07:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0820106566C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:07:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFC28FC0C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:07:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14so946243dad.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:07:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=rXcLnSaSAinx5dRlpfGacUtenYR077UUZjJroX4WwxA=; b=vqOoiiDTnjRb2liBs80P8lMWGUGiLSau/3N35JwtdWPfqylAqG7ar6xWnbazA+CUWW fPFixr2wBcIWmPbZzj5eSQLIhm6SkSGVgm/qXydJmS94IrmAxZhE0P9Yk+fvT+yRYtvs bXaXnPPU4TH0VB7SUqAxycSbrP2bXo5NuuWZg= Received: by 10.68.74.170 with SMTP id u10mr47975046pbv.99.1326938821067; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:07:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:06:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:06:19 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: oL7oXe9Q4kyHiVvVRk84XAvjTBE Message-ID: To: Dieter BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:07:01 -0000 On 19 January 2012 00:57, Dieter BSD wrote: > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/year > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > Raj...........80...............80........................80 You mean something like: http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? ;-) -- Igor M :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 02:16:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7AE106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:16:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947D58FC08 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:16:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa05 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0J1PqQ9024475; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:16:31 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12e6jw8g3d-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:16:31 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:16:30 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Igor Mozolevsky'" , "'Dieter BSD'" References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:16:58 -0800 Message-ID: <04b201ccd650$6c94ca80$45be5f80$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKI6chsyZpOwfKh+7tT0Wwjt7UmoAFy/hFplI80X/A= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-18_10:2012-01-17, 2012-01-18, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:16:34 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Igor Mozolevsky > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:06 PM > To: Dieter BSD > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecyc= le) >=20 > On 19 January 2012 00:57, Dieter BSD wrote: >=20 > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average > > fixed/year > > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > > Raj...........80...............80........................80 >=20 > You mean something like: http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? >=20 > ;-) >=20 I'd want to know more about how the metrics for the "top responsibles" is g= athered, because its current state may represent a tell-tale problem if PRs= are idling too-often in their generic assignments (rather than being disbu= rsed in a timely fashion to more-appropriate owners). --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 02:18:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB152106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824DF8FC08 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa05 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0J1OiJ1023298; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:18:46 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12e6jw8g7f-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:18:46 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:18:45 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Igor Mozolevsky'" , "'Dieter BSD'" References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:19:13 -0800 Message-ID: <04b401ccd650$bd13f030$373bd090$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKI6chsyZpOwfKh+7tT0Wwjt7UmoAFy/hFplI81y7A= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-18_10:2012-01-17, 2012-01-18, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:18:47 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Igor Mozolevsky > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:06 PM > To: Dieter BSD > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecyc= le) >=20 > On 19 January 2012 00:57, Dieter BSD wrote: >=20 > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average > > fixed/year > > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > > Raj...........80...............80........................80 >=20 > You mean something like: http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? >=20 > ;-) >=20 Sure would be nice if the colors used in each graph were actually defined (= just sayin'). --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 02:21:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF91106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:21:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Received: from wilberforce.math.missouri.edu (wilberforce.math.missouri.edu [128.206.184.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64EE8FC0C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:21:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (wilberforce.math.missouri.edu [128.206.184.213]) by wilberforce.math.missouri.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0J1xmjN026476 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:59:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Message-ID: <4F177914.5090706@missouri.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:59:48 -0600 From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.24) Gecko/20111108 Thunderbird/3.1.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:21:16 -0000 On 01/18/2012 06:57 PM, Dieter BSD wrote: > Andriy writes: >> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. > > Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us > manage to do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up. > > Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developers to get them > to fix PRs, let's look for carrots to make fixing PRs more appealing. > > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ... > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/year > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > Raj...........80...............80........................80 You should get extra points for difficult PR's. One way to measure this would be to give more points for fixing older PR's than newer PR's. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 03:13:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7913F1065670 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:13:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhellenthal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f182.google.com (mail-gx0-f182.google.com [209.85.161.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3B98FC16 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:13:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ggki1 with SMTP id i1so5465560ggk.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:13:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=WYD/xGV5h+iiUfJtkc3C23UDt3uUuZ2dgQy7LU8eJws=; b=uQacuSeowuT8W53mqz05M3nezeBXN/tJg/meUaBguo0P9UWFxdpPp4f6N5iWEVkLn6 Oy8DAeYzb1bCfz2YAvPSsqs7OWXA7Ky8b5SZ+oLIDS3LdEmrEkPQeobtW+b/a7utwaj5 V6EGDBrdZwhzs90lxf0K0b4W1RQgDtVRATyR4= Received: by 10.100.81.4 with SMTP id e4mr1126311anb.26.1326942785442; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from DataIX.net (adsl-99-56-123-248.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net. [99.56.123.248]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e48sm44452543yhm.12.2012.01.18.19.13.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:13:04 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Hellenthal Received: from DataIX.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by DataIX.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0J3D0rS061932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:13:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhell@DataIX.net) Received: (from jhell@localhost) by DataIX.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0J3CtSl061833; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:12:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhell@DataIX.net) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:12:55 -0500 From: Jason Hellenthal To: Matthew Story Message-ID: <20120119031255.GA95131@DataIX.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: intent of tab-completion in /bin/sh in 9.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:13:06 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:00:44AM -0500, Matthew Story wrote: > Just noticed that tab-completion in /bin/sh has been added in 9.0 (verified > that it is not there in 8.0, dunno if it's there in 8.2, could probably go > digging to figure it out). In addition to the command history via > : (which is present in 8.0) FreeBSD sh is now actually a pretty > usable interactive shell. I also noticed that the following bit has been > removed from the sh(1): > > This version has many features which make it appear similar in some > respects to the Korn shell, but it is not a Korn shell clone like pdksh. > > Just wondering if the general direction here is attempting to provide a > minimal POSIX shell, that is useful enough interactively to become the > default root shell (supplanting csh)? Or if there is just a general trend > towards adopting more of the ksh feature-set. > > Relatively new to list, so if this has been discussed, apologies. > I inquired about this a few times before about MFC'ing the changes to 8-STABLE... needless to say it did not fall in the mix. I maintained some patches for a while until some major rollage happened and started including changes to other such areas like csh echo etc... at that time I dropped it because it became too much of a hassle. It would be nice if the completion made it down to 8.X. As for replacing roots shell (csh) I do not even see that as needed and a goal of mine to spend as little time as neccesary in root. The shell while I am in root never made a difference to me. Others may see differently. -- ;s =; From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 03:19:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB12106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:19:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhellenthal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f182.google.com (mail-gx0-f182.google.com [209.85.161.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54378FC15 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:19:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ggki1 with SMTP id i1so5467448ggk.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:19:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=6cV5rg/YzsOq627v0haL4xUtR7UNQQXfDV2ge3qEkjM=; b=MR6icbGzAPkviBI7xLGWnZt6tb8qGK4T0iRN6IaToI3TSy8xy0ScNXA/YBQbDs4bpW gH1BtLwVdHn4Wuuy0iFG6J7ClW6YgOVd9YTgDoxw4JveTjOyb/bYG3eqkI/1TzeaO1ly sJhP+LZ7oQKC6SqTh/L5ixkBVIluDyCDutno8= Received: by 10.101.185.1 with SMTP id m1mr9891161anp.21.1326943157176; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from DataIX.net (adsl-99-56-123-248.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net. [99.56.123.248]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 39sm75572723ans.10.2012.01.18.19.19.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:19:16 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Hellenthal Received: from DataIX.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by DataIX.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0J3JDFN078051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:19:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhell@DataIX.net) Received: (from jhell@localhost) by DataIX.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0J3J8Qh078023; Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:19:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhell@DataIX.net) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:19:08 -0500 From: Jason Hellenthal To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith Message-ID: <20120119031908.GB95131@DataIX.net> References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> <4F177914.5090706@missouri.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F177914.5090706@missouri.edu> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:19:18 -0000 --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 07:59:48PM -0600, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote: > On 01/18/2012 06:57 PM, Dieter BSD wrote: > > Andriy writes: > >> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. > > > > Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of us > > manage to do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up. > > > > Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developers to get them > > to fix PRs, let's look for carrots to make fixing PRs more appealing. > > > > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ... > > > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/= year > > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > > Raj...........80...............80........................80 >=20 > You should get extra points for difficult PR's. One way to measure this= =20 > would be to give more points for fixing older PR's than newer PR's. Number of points =3D number of days or weeks that a PR has been in the syst= em before triage ? I would think this would put some emphasis on either triaging old PRs befor= e new ones or actually postponing and assigning a status that cannot accumu= late a higher amount of points. --=20 ;s =3D; --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPF4urAAoJEJBXh4mJ2FR+Ej0H/2ECq4UZTGhBPMW2PyMS7CMN z9lbA841v5mnb6K/T8lZVnsWt0tnmgsYXe4nqNYMDV3q+AGB6Z3X3spSs9pCG5HW gpZYTMQiy0nKmdN1bxmJcaFhrJybJtYn70l8LtloN/lkSE2xUlea6k/dW97w/lg/ 1TgpnvG+yXflKS4kltAF5I1pV7Kg/ZBFYfJatFm6XD3++re12Dmg5R6fZ8zAp8JF rcmxaS+sET/pg6BJfpQj0nVeoAsfI5Jt1iMoMmXjnxOIJX4/EXT4bTM1uqrrsXtz RrRnVO9YVx4z/XQgP8UyAr15nlyuOzHwKEHrtY0lyOi/uxc4EqXu35yAtiaYYSU= =e0Y4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 03:21:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98FC106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:21:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from janm-freebsd-hackers@transactionware.com) Received: from midgard.transactionware.com (mail2.transactionware.com [203.14.245.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E89C48FC15 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:21:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 15216 invoked by uid 907); 19 Jan 2012 03:21:56 -0000 Received: from jmmacpro.transactionware.com (HELO jmmacpro.transactionware.com) (192.168.1.33) by midgard.transactionware.com (qpsmtpd/0.82) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:21:56 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Jan Mikkelsen In-Reply-To: <4F139ABD.8070801@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:21:55 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <351D0C9B-AD02-4B1E-BA94-B3EBF2562C65@transactionware.com> References: <4F139ABD.8070801@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hardware supported by ng_frame_relay? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:21:58 -0000 On 16/01/2012, at 2:34 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 1/13/12 11:00 PM, Jan Mikkelsen wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma = A101 card and WANPIPE. >>=20 >> Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for = alternatives. >>=20 >> What hardware does ng_frame_relay support now that ar(4) and sr(4) = are not in FreeBSD 9? >>=20 >> Specifically, will ng_frame_relay work with a Digium TE121 and = ports/dahdi-kmod? >>=20 >> Any suggestions welcome, G.703, X.21 or V.35 interfaces OK. >=20 > Unfortunately, with the advent of Ethernet connected internet feeds = (e.g. dsl, cable etc), > plain synchronous interfaces have become almost irrelevant for most of = the developers. > If you can find a card that "would have" been usable with the ar or = sr > drivers and you have one for testing, we could possibly resurrect it = with your help, > but none of the current developers have such a card.. (that I know = of). Thanks. For now I'm going with a standalone router. This is a single = link for a communicating with a legacy application at a government body, = so I'm not looking to invest significant amounts of time. I was curious about about what was involved in hooking ng_frame_relay up = to one of the E1 based telephone cards to do frame relay. Perhaps if I = get one of the cards for another purpose I'll have a look. Regards, Jan.= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 03:23:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3E61065672 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:23:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from janm-freebsd-hackers@transactionware.com) Received: from midgard.transactionware.com (mail2.transactionware.com [203.14.245.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D08D58FC21 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:23:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 15243 invoked by uid 907); 19 Jan 2012 03:23:13 -0000 Received: from jmmacpro.transactionware.com (HELO jmmacpro.transactionware.com) (192.168.1.33) by midgard.transactionware.com (qpsmtpd/0.82) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:23:13 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Jan Mikkelsen In-Reply-To: <4F127980.2070806@inse.ru> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:23:13 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <75F64160-8D26-4A7A-8AB7-50C5A4581B70@transactionware.com> References: <4F127980.2070806@inse.ru> To: Roman Kurakin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hardware supported by ng_frame_relay? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:23:15 -0000 On 15/01/2012, at 6:00 PM, Roman Kurakin wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Jan Mikkelsen wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma = A101 card and WANPIPE. >>=20 >> Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for = alternatives. >>=20 >> What hardware does ng_frame_relay support now that ar(4) and sr(4) = are not in FreeBSD 9? >>=20 >> Specifically, will ng_frame_relay work with a Digium TE121 and = ports/dahdi-kmod? >>=20 >> Any suggestions welcome, G.703, X.21 or V.35 interfaces OK. >> =20 > Check also www. cronyx. ru for ce(4) and cp(4). As far as I know, an = old digium adapters were using > software framer for HDLC, but I don'k know the current state. If they = didn't provide hardware framer > now, I suggest to check for any other adapter. Thanks. Just had a look at their site; they support up to 6.x, there is = a red note saying 7.x is not supported. I suspect that would also apply = to 8.x and 9.x ... For now going with a standalone router. Might have a look at the Digium = card more closely if I have a different application for it ... Regards, Jan. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 06:25:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71081106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:25:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ken@mthelicon.com) Received: from hercules.mthelicon.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:49f0:2023::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328338FC0C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:25:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from feathers.peganest.com ([213.205.224.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by hercules.mthelicon.com (8.14.5/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0J6OZwf020352; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:24:36 GMT (envelope-from ken@mthelicon.com) From: Pegasus Mc Cleaft Organization: Feathers To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:23:00 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (FreeBSD/10.0-CURRENT; KDE/4.7.3; amd64; ; ) References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> <4F177914.5090706@missouri.edu> <20120119031908.GB95131@DataIX.net> In-Reply-To: <20120119031908.GB95131@DataIX.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201201190623.00241.ken@mthelicon.com> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=15.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on hercules.mthelicon.com Cc: Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:25:07 -0000 > > > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ... > > > > > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > > > > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average > > > fixed/year Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > > > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > > > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > > > Raj...........80...............80........................80 > > > > You should get extra points for difficult PR's. One way to measure this > > would be to give more points for fixing older PR's than newer PR's. > > Number of points = number of days or weeks that a PR has been in the system > before triage ? > > I would think this would put some emphasis on either triaging old PRs > before new ones or actually postponing and assigning a status that cannot > accumulate a higher amount of points. But then what? What to do with the points after they accumulate? Wouldn't it be cool if there was some funding or backing where you could trade your points in for a pint or a cup of coffee? Call it "Coffee for Coders" or the CC fund 8-) You know.. That might be a funny way of assigning points for a PR. How many cups of coffee you expect to be drunk during the fixing of a PR. All meant tongue to cheek, of course 8-) Peg From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 06:40:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1CB106564A; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:40:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wkoszek@freebsd.czest.pl) Received: from freebsd.czest.pl (freebsd.czest.pl [212.87.224.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2809C8FC13; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:40:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freebsd.czest.pl (freebsd.czest.pl [212.87.224.105]) by freebsd.czest.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0J6RLmK061175; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:27:21 GMT (envelope-from wkoszek@freebsd.czest.pl) Received: (from wkoszek@localhost) by freebsd.czest.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0J6RL85061174; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:27:21 GMT (envelope-from wkoszek) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:27:21 +0000 From: "Wojciech A. Koszek" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120119062721.GA61106@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Default is to whitelist mail, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (freebsd.czest.pl [212.87.224.105]); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:27:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Subject: Google Code-In 2011 is over; 56 tasks got completed for FreeBSD! X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:40:40 -0000 Hello, (This is cross-posted message between current@, stable@ and hackers@; for eventual discussion, please use hackers@ mailing list.) I am glad to announce that we've successfully reached the end of Google Code-In 2011 Contest! FreeBSD participated first time, and in my personal opinion GCIN has proven to be a big success. I want to thank all the participants for their time, cooperation and dedication. Here's the list of this years participants: Alex Rucker, Andrey Sinitsyn, Anikan, Astha Sethi, Bebacz, Bharath Mohan, doctorkohaku, Eric Newberry, GarrettF, Isabell Long (issyl0), mpaloski, Violet Lin (n00l3), Nagato Yuki, Nathan, passstab, Reid Anderson, Robin, Roger, Rushil Paul, Thomas Turney, Utkarsh Pant, Zacharias Mitzelos I would like to point out Isabell Long (issyl0) completed 13 tasks for us and holds this years record. Some other numbers... We've had 19 mentors. I send special thanks to those who offered their help in mentoring/administration, since accepting/reviewing/judging tasks has proven to be challenging. We've had 78 tasks published. 56 tasks got completed, leading to ~72% successful completions. 1 task was claimed at the time of hitting the deadline, 10 tasks were claimed, but never finished, thus got reopened. 12 of tasks were never claimed. List of tasks, together with their outcome (uploaded results) are present here: http://www.google-melange.com/gci/org/google/gci2011/freebsd It would be my wish to have the work done in GCIN commited to FreeBSD with: Submitted by: Name (Google Code-In 2011) header or similar, clearly stating work comes from GCIN 2011. The hardest expectations for mentors was short response time. For students I think it was meeting FreeBSD's standards, however I'm positively surprised by the quality of submitted work. The complaint which I've heard is: "Not enough coding tasks". We should fix it next time, since most of the tasks were related with documentation and outreach/promotion. I think GCIN should become an integral part of the FreeBSD involvement in promotion of the Open Source software. Thank you. -- Wojciech A. Koszek wkoszek@FreeBSD.czest.pl http://FreeBSD.czest.pl/~wkoszek/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 06:48:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51B8106566C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:48:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rik@inse.ru) Received: from ns.rikbsd.org (ns.rikbsd.org [95.143.215.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6573E8FC0A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:48:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (wn.rikbsd.org [192.168.1.254]) by ns.rikbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4B2E75CEDD; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:47:29 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F166B44.8050208@inse.ru> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:48:36 +0400 From: Roman Kurakin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20111109) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jan Mikkelsen References: <4F127980.2070806@inse.ru> <75F64160-8D26-4A7A-8AB7-50C5A4581B70@transactionware.com> In-Reply-To: <75F64160-8D26-4A7A-8AB7-50C5A4581B70@transactionware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hardware supported by ng_frame_relay? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:48:19 -0000 Jan Mikkelsen wrote: > On 15/01/2012, at 6:00 PM, Roman Kurakin wrote: > > >> Hi, >> >> Jan Mikkelsen wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm looking to upgrade a system running frame relay over a Sangoma A101 card and WANPIPE. >>> >>> Sangoma do not support FreeBSD anymore, so I'm looking for alternatives. >>> >>> What hardware does ng_frame_relay support now that ar(4) and sr(4) are not in FreeBSD 9? >>> >>> Specifically, will ng_frame_relay work with a Digium TE121 and ports/dahdi-kmod? >>> >>> Any suggestions welcome, G.703, X.21 or V.35 interfaces OK. >>> >>> >> Check also www. cronyx. ru for ce(4) and cp(4). As far as I know, an old digium adapters were using >> software framer for HDLC, but I don'k know the current state. If they didn't provide hardware framer >> now, I suggest to check for any other adapter. >> > > > Thanks. Just had a look at their site; they support up to 6.x, there is a red note saying 7.x is not supported. I suspect that would also apply to 8.x and 9.x ... > I know, I quit the company and support was stopped at that point. But code in the base tree, and should work. > For now going with a standalone router. Might have a look at the Digium card more closely if I have a different application for it ... > Then take a look at www. nsg. ru they have nice linux based boxes. Though, I didn't play with them by my self. Best regards, rik rik > Regards, > > Jan. > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 07:00:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581C7106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:00:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo.poczta.interia.pl (smtpo.poczta.interia.pl [217.74.65.207]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3EA8FC15 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:00:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:00:48 +0100 From: vermaden To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: X-Originating-IP: 194.0.181.128 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1326956447; bh=fIl7gY0VkmEbxOtJFUx3F4RRj/yGKcSgsdU9oeED6b4=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:References: X-Originating-IP:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PT5BziOwt324f1hRJ+WPLm+7OsrmsgwrUzPVyNs1KsekvE6MYNkUQDU97l3XLjLj2 HUj8Un+lyuhISuQ4mrLoffeT8icJpq1XYBhY4T2Yo3ASiYh7mkP9DXyV+78nVyuR5q buAUtgsk6j/iyWeUETifO3yAVGUhwcx1lQ0BAncE= Subject: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:00:49 -0000 A simple sollution (at least for a start), for backporting various bugfixes from STABLE to RELEASE. Currently we have /var/db/pkg 'db' for installed ports, where an installed port is like /var/db/pkg/portname-1.0 lets provide another one, /var/db/patch, a separated 'repository' that would list installed patches/backports from STABLE to RELEASE, for example: # pkg_info aspell-0.60.6.1 Spelling checker with better suggestion logic than ispell automake-1.11.1 GNU Standards-compliant Makefile generator (1.11) binutils-2.22 GNU binary tools bison-2.4.3,1 A parser generator from FSF, (mostly) compatible with Yacc blogbench-1.1 Performance Test of Filesystem I/O (...) # patch_into network-intel_drivers-em-1.0 Some fancy descritpion here usb-hubfix-3.0 Some other fancy descritpion Similar for patch_add(1)/patch_delete(1) etc. LOGIC/THEORY: Adding a PATCH network-intel_drivers-em-1.0 would first move all files that will be overwritten to /var/db/patch/files, for example /boot/kernel/if_em.ko to /var/db/patch/files/network-intel_drivers-em-1.0/boot/kernel/if_em.ko and then install the new backported/updatet files into the base system or should I say RELEASE. The only other thing needed to do is to make freebsd-update AWARE of the files that are under /var/db/patch/files/*/ to omit them when checking the checksums for updating process. I will not write that as I only know basics of C programming and creating this in SH and then porting it to C seems useless efort to me. Regards, vermaden From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 07:07:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF28106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:07:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo.poczta.interia.pl (smtpo.poczta.interia.pl [217.74.65.207]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FA98FC13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:07:44 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:07:43 +0100 From: vermaden To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: X-Originating-IP: 194.0.181.128 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1326956863; bh=p0rIxLqLvri3lxF6iiX+2I7z9B9TwJ4r6jMVKlJ0Y/0=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:References: X-Originating-IP:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BZ38XTzDCX6/WP4HW49/oqYkl4av4R0TJIZFa7RMaCua3aWpMMnkQvOdv3bt3IXH2 +uXGyQaXkydEJYq5/86yQjcppK1HSHjVY+b+eXD6VquKCjDK1p+poygqagQ/JooToi DW7fohhotgB5yKrNfV24klH11VBjI9Lmr3gaeOds= Subject: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:07:46 -0000 (This is my earlier 'rant' about current situation, it was not 'approved' to the freebsd-hackers ML because I was not subscribed to it (my bad), possible little too much personal and emotional, but who we are without emotions, machines.) This well known 'open secret' FreeBSD problem also hit me many times, but as experience tells me, all of us would chick-chat here a lot what can be done to make things better and in the end ... nothing will happen. Many of You say 'step-up' and help/do something, I am actually or tried to do that in the past. I submit PRs and try to help test them as some developer/commiter will pick up the PR, submit a patch to test, but it was MANY times that the response from developer/commiter was way too long that I even DID NOT HAVE THE HARDWARE anymore ... Long time ago I had a lot of fun with emulation/virtualization using QEMU on FreeBSD, so I decided to write a FreeBSD Handbook section that would cover what I already known and it will help a LOT of people that would also want to use it the same or similar way. Here is one of the messages that I sent by then to the mailing lists: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-doc/2007-May/012507.html ... and NOTHING HAPPENED, no one told me what to do next, should I sent a SGML version or anything ... or just GTFO. Maybe that is the reason why my HOWTO 'QEMU on FreeBSD' was so popular before VirtualBox 'happened' on FreeBSD. And these Handbook pages are still available on my site to this very day: http://strony.toya.net.pl/~vermaden/FreeBSD-Handbook-Virtualization.htm I have an issue with my Lenovo X300 laptop that the 'output jack' for headphone did not worked as advertised, I submitted a PR, some the developer/commiter helped me to make it work by adding some 'hacks' to /boot/loader.conf (and it worked), but IT WAS NOE FIXED, these changes was never added to any branch, not even CURRENT, whats the point of fixing something if it is not even commited to at least CURRENT so it will not hit anyone anymore? Lets talk about Ports maintainers for a while, ftp/vsftpd maintainer for example, one of the options of this port is to provide a RC script so one will be able to start this FTP server with /usr/local/etc/rc.d script, but ... ITS NOT ENABLED BY DEFAULT, wtf people? Now every person that wants to use vsftpd NORMALLY will have to compile it instead of adding a package, so whats the need for building all the packages if You provide such useless defaults? Another example, net/samba*, its WELL KNOWN that samba sucks on FreeBSD with current selected defaults for this port, the current defaults are to DISABLE AIO support, but You only get good performance with samba on FreeBSD when the AIO is enabled, so another bunch of useless prebuilt packages, You need to compile anyway. Its options for FreeBSD, not every other OS on the world, so why not enable it? FreeBSD Ports are not PKGSRC where many systems are supported, if some option is 'good for default' why keep it disabled? What I have done about these 'Ports issues'? I contacted these ports maintainers and said that both RC script and AIO support for samba should be enabled by default by linking to several threads at FreeBSD Forums that the problem is known and exists ... and I did not get ANY RESPONSE till this very day, not even a GTFO (which would probably be better then nothing). I got these maintainers email addresses from http://freshports.org page, are they up-to-date there? Maybe that is the problem and that my mails jest went to /dev/null ... Just checking for sure. Its not that people does not try to help, a lot tried (and I am still trying), but its VERY unpleasant to have awareness, that You dedicated your time, tried to help as much as possible, made some steps to achieve that ... and no one even cares about that. At least some should say 'You are doing it wrong' try this and that, understand that, that is the way it works etc. Just my $0.02 on that well known FreeBSD problem and 'crisis'. With kind regards, vermaden From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 07:24:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA4D106566C; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:24:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Received: from monday.kientzle.com (99-115-135-74.uvs.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [99.115.135.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25D28FC0C; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:24:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from root@localhost) by monday.kientzle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) id q0J6sjpa075969; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:54:45 GMT (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Received: from [192.168.2.119] (CiscoE3000 [192.168.1.65]) by kientzle.com with SMTP id q5zbqjcrtn98mru5vs9isg3nei; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:54:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Tim Kientzle In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:54:44 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <570E1AEB-F0C5-4286-BF10-56D509D33473@kientzle.com> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> To: Robert Watson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, WBentley@FutureCIS.com, Julian Elischer , William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:24:27 -0000 On Jan 18, 2012, at 2:44 AM, Robert Watson wrote: >=20 > ... perhaps what is really called for is breaking out our .0 release = engineering entirely from .x engineering, with freebsd-update being in = the latter. This is a great idea! In particular, it would allow more people to be involved. There's a practical limit to the number of people that can be involved in any single release process; having multiple groups handling separate releases (for example, we might have a group working just on 8-STABLE releases, so that 8.3, 8.4, etc, weren't competing for resources with the more complex 9.0 release). Tim From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 09:42:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1337A1065670 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:42:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gabor@FreeBSD.org) Received: from server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [87.229.73.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEF48FC12 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:42:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.mypc.hu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC50814E6AB6; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:26:55 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at server.mypc.hu Received: from server.mypc.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by server.mypc.hu (server.mypc.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 0PmpzGKB5Htz; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:26:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.117] (catv-80-98-232-12.catv.broadband.hu [80.98.232.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by server.mypc.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 347AA14E6A5A; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:26:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4F17E1D5.4040301@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:26:45 +0100 From: Gabor Kovesdan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0a2) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/10.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Mozolevsky References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:42:50 -0000 On 2012.01.19. 3:06, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > You mean something like:http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? It is not up to date. I have not closed too many PRs in the last 3 months and I'm still on the top PR closers list. Gabor From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 11:16:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600D2106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:16:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 172-17-198-245.globalsuite.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5044B1519A2; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:16:12 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4F17FB7A.802@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:16:10 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dieter BSD References: <20120119005820.218250@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: <20120119005820.218250@gmx.com> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Giant lock gone? (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:16:13 -0000 On 01/18/2012 16:58, Dieter BSD wrote: >> The original goal for 5.0 was to completely remove the Giant lock (and >> do other cool SMP-related stuff). Eventually it was realized that this >> was too big a goal to fully accomplish in 5.0 (albeit too late in the >> process) and the goal was changed to do the basic framework for the new >> SMP model; and lay the groundwork for "some things run under Giant for >> now, and we'll remove it from them ASAP." That actually turned out to >> last through 6, making 7 the realization of what 5.0 was supposed to be. > > So you are saying that the Giant lock was completely removed in 7.0? > > 8.2 says: > > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] Yeah, I think nitpicking minor details about Giant still being used on non-critical drivers is definitely the key to solving the problems that face FreeBSD today. I could have more thoroughly clarified the reality of the when/where/how of Giant but it really wasn't central to my point. -- It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short. Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 11:55:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750741065672 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64698FC16 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:55:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p5DCBF41F.dip.t-dialin.net [93.203.244.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0JBtYi9082240; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:55:35 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0JBtuGY051848; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:55:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0JBta7i066123; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:55:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201201191155.q0JBta7i066123@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Igor Mozolevsky , edwin@freebsd.org From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://www.berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:06:19 GMT." Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:55:36 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:55:41 -0000 Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On 19 January 2012 00:57, Dieter BSD wrote: > > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed/year > > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > > Raj...........80...............80........................80 > > You mean something like: http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? Wow ! I hope that has a link from somewhere, or appearance in, the main tree. If so, I suggest add a back link. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, & indent with "> ". Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 12:06:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F1D106566B; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:06:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (pancho.soaustin.net [76.74.250.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054F98FC1C; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:06:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 815AA56173; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:05:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:05:58 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20120119120558.GA16345@lonesome.com> References: <20120119005820.218250@gmx.com> <4F17FB7A.802@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F17FB7A.802@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:10:59 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD Subject: Re: Giant lock gone? (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:06:01 -0000 (sorry to reply to Doug but not Dieter, but I have already deleted the prior email) > On 01/18/2012 16:58, Dieter BSD wrote: > So you are saying that the Giant lock was completely removed in 7.0? It was completely removed from the network stack. That was the missing qualifier in his sentence. So, to a first approximation, it had been removed from all the places that were true performance-killers. mcl From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 12:24:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D14E106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:24:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6E68FC0C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:24:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p4FC439CA.dip.t-dialin.net [79.196.57.202]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18FF3844017; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:24:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (unknown [85.94.224.20]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2B9831303; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:23:59 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=Leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1326975842; bh=CmCHseTQBVbSI1+c4RBBopYkA4XXQAFEjZjdtPXgpqk=; h=Date:Subject:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=PagxNdtV0g08FnDMZ/M0FIyQzfVSFjVrPY38AcolIYIpOBq+s+sbHnCpySdWQ76YY vJfKsVtFsoGQpZfyBbcwAL0fuJx/bAMShkUjLH6zX3+Zv4XqDj9PIJAYQu/iBXZvNo EBPi/oYr6jX9fJcFMnawGDB0QW7eJiqgeHyBusUL/y1eF39sXy3iI4sFDm+uoRCNr1 Q9d1a2FVUtQsqRh/Xa2iYCsE+/swbqESChAp9EJyoStPwPK7SUIxa8J5NSKf9RHVZM kTye+surBY0VGk4gdehk0k7NQxvffDhPVPGqqpIi12Z0frScRTVy79GsijW3C/3RoE 63nBaTL5bm2Xg== Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:22:51 +0100 Message-ID: Importance: normal From: Alexander Leidinger To: fullermd@over-yonder.net, feld@feld.me MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 18FF3844017.A9D0B X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.099, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, DKIM_SIGNED 0.10, DKIM_VALID -0.10, DKIM_VALID_AU -0.10, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1327580647.46938@uM3Z5rhOmEaVcDSnPMtjWQ X-EBL-Spam-Status: No X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:33:53 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:24:22 -0000 SGksCgp5ZXN0ZXJkYXkgSSB3cm90ZSBzb21lIHdvcmRzIGluIG15IGhvdyB3ZSBjb3VsZCBwdXQg dGhlIHBvd2VyIGhvdyBsb25nIGEgYnJhbmNoIGxpdmVzIGEgbGl0dGxlIGJpdCBtb3JlIGludG8g aGUgaGFuZHMgb2YgdGhlIHVzZXJzLiBJdCdzIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmxlaWRp 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Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C7D106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:36:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hosting@syscare.sk) Received: from services.syscare.sk (services.syscare.sk [188.40.39.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463878FC22 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:36:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from services.syscare.sk (services [188.40.39.36]) by services.syscare.sk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68119A6122 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:17:31 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rulez.sk Received: from services.syscare.sk ([188.40.39.36]) by services.syscare.sk (services.rulez.sk [188.40.39.36]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NYtvc3Vi11WS for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:17:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from hosting.syscare.sk (hosting [188.40.39.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by services.syscare.sk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBF73A60FC for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:17:25 +0100 (CET) Received: (from www@localhost) by hosting.syscare.sk (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q0JCHPRV082749; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:17:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from hosting@syscare.sk) X-Authentication-Warning: hosting.syscare.sk: www set sender to hosting@syscare.sk using -f To: X-PHP-Originating-Script: 0:func.inc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:17:25 +0100 From: Daniel Gerzo Organization: The FreeBSD Project In-Reply-To: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> Message-ID: <9b50cb919f34164847e1e2f2c54ce59f@rulez.sk> X-Sender: danger@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.5.4 Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:36:15 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:57:33 -0500, Dieter BSD wrote: > Andriy writes: >> And dealing with PRs is not always exciting. > > Neither is brushing your teeth or cleaning the kitchen, but most of > us > manage to do them at least occasionally. Part of being a grown up. > > Instead of looking for a stick to hold over developers to get them > to fix PRs, let's look for carrots to make fixing PRs more appealing. > > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, > ... > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats http://www.oook.cz/bsd/prstats/ http://wiki.freebsd.org/BugBusting -- Kind regards Daniel From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 13:05:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103171065670 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:05:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hosting@syscare.sk) Received: from services.syscare.sk (services.syscare.sk [188.40.39.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB4E8FC1E for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:05:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from services.syscare.sk (services [188.40.39.36]) by services.syscare.sk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB68A6324 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:05:00 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rulez.sk Received: from services.syscare.sk ([188.40.39.36]) by services.syscare.sk (services.rulez.sk [188.40.39.36]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yJMnZN7zJLH3 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:04:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from hosting.syscare.sk (hosting [188.40.39.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by services.syscare.sk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8CABA62ED for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:04:50 +0100 (CET) Received: (from www@localhost) by hosting.syscare.sk (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q0JD4oat080568; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:04:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from hosting@syscare.sk) X-Authentication-Warning: hosting.syscare.sk: www set sender to hosting@syscare.sk using -f To: X-PHP-Originating-Script: 0:func.inc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:04:50 +0100 From: Daniel Gerzo Organization: The FreeBSD Project In-Reply-To: <570E1AEB-F0C5-4286-BF10-56D509D33473@kientzle.com> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <570E1AEB-F0C5-4286-BF10-56D509D33473@kientzle.com> Message-ID: X-Sender: danger@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.5.4 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:05:03 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:54:44 -0800, Tim Kientzle wrote: > On Jan 18, 2012, at 2:44 AM, Robert Watson wrote: >> >> ... perhaps what is really called for is breaking out our .0 release >> engineering entirely from .x engineering, with freebsd-update being in >> the latter. > > This is a great idea! > > In particular, it would allow more people to be involved. I like this idea too. In a summary to this thread, I'd say that people would love to see: - more regular minor releases, e.g. 8.3, 8.4 say every 4 months (3x per year) - have max. 2 -STABLE branches under support at any given time (once a new -STABLE is created, EOL the oldest supported branch; in a result we would release major version a bit less often. However 5 years between mayor releases is too much and that would only stagnate the development and make switching between mayor releases much more difficult) - make X.Y.Z releases more common or issue Errata notices for existing minor releases more often. I can easily imagine us fixing much more bugs by Errata notices than we do now. How much work is behind issuing an errata notice? - an idea from this thread that I liked is to allow people to cherry-pick the patch level (-pX) which would be great if we managed to release more errata notices. -- Kind regards Daniel From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 13:24:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606581065670 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:24:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthewstory@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1180D8FC08 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:24:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so4460535vbb.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:24:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=95+DGns6H25g1RX/AaqTn7RuUhLYD4U/8N5s2VgRi4c=; b=cZhT3rQPnpboVKHZTwKiOw2YDjiYHdknHaC5TbOGb9PAqcfrrXf/vD/dRVGJ8GF6C9 ldu9isNiUaREEhQ0s/dTzEGSqLWag18Kg/rGHUIys8Y7PLczqTlfdNjkehzEmOTi379K 0uuZluPmg9OveWlI9dNz24t/SWX1SRj2dc1JU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.31.36 with SMTP id x4mr12441222vdh.121.1326979484951; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.159.69 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 05:24:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20120119031255.GA95131@DataIX.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:24:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Matthew Story To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: intent of tab-completion in /bin/sh in 9.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:24:46 -0000 forgot to reply-to list ... On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote: > [...snip] > >> It would be nice if the completion made it down to 8.X. >> > > Agreed, on my 9.0 install, I have actually forgone my typical bash > install, due mostly to the presence of tab completion, would be nice to > remove bash from my 8.X systems as well. > > >> As for replacing roots shell (csh) I do not even see that as needed and a >> goal of mine to spend as little time as neccesary in root. > > > Always a good role. > > >> The shell while I am in root never made a difference to me. Others may >> see differently. >> > > Was more-so just curious about the direction of this. I'm not a huge > (t)csh fan, but understand there are historical reasons here ... not sure > if historical reasons always justify continued support, but changing csh -> > sh for root (and removing toor) might be non-POLA for negligible benefit > (as you suggest). > > >> >> -- >> ;s =; >> > > > > -- > regards, > matt > -- regards, matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 13:38:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF699106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:38:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from samspeed@mail.ru) Received: from fallback4.mail.ru (fallback4.mail.ru [94.100.176.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A828FC13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:38:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from f173.mail.ru (f173.mail.ru [94.100.178.91]) by fallback4.mail.ru (mPOP.Fallback_MX) with ESMTP id B13B86C6EB61 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:21:58 +0400 (MSK) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail.ru; s=mail; h=Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Reply-To:Date:Mime-Version:Subject:To:From; bh=/kDCwQA9m+XdfX+DaB2xzi0iiYVylU+9ld64LkhD3/s=; b=BFjxWxKk8I5TznjnIucGSo4Mp+yCtcg+qycvrbQo4z0ZE3ICUfe8gz7bW+B9TdK9mu/dXMOhIU6RHNowMbxjhWISTl3fdU+9wMNbNlKzWdDON/y3GbMqaqd9R9aRfcgJ; Received: from mail by f173.mail.ru with local (envelope-from ) id 1RnrwC-0006w5-2R for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:21:56 +0400 Received: from [85.113.140.133] by e.mail.ru with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:21:56 +0400 From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmV5IFNtYWdpbg==?= To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: mPOP Web-Mail 2.19 X-Originating-IP: [85.113.140.133] Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:21:56 +0400 X-Mru-UID: 2258651 X-Mru-IsAutoreg: X-Mru-AutoregInfo: , X-Mru-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:9.0.1) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/9.0.1 X-Mru-Data: 4180:1:1:70:24:0 X-Priority: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Message-Id: X-Spam: Not detected X-Mras: Ok X-Mru-Karma: 0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:39:35 +0000 Subject: Tools to calculate time(or cpucycles) in mutex inside kernel ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcmV5IFNtYWdpbg==?= List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:38:17 -0000 SGkgQUxMLgoKSGF2ZSBGcmVlQlNEIGludGVybmFsIHRpbWUgY291bnRlcnMgZm9yIGNhbGN1bGF0 ZSBzdWJqID8KSG93IGRldGVybWluZSB3aWNoIG11dGV4ZXMgd2FpdCBsb3Qgb2YgdGltZSA/CgoK From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 14:01:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21228106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:01:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504518FC0A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:01:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id QAA18898; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:01:31 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1RnsYU-000C31-Ou; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:01:30 +0200 Message-ID: <4F18223A.6000702@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:01:30 +0200 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrey Smagin References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tools to calculate time(or cpucycles) in mutex inside kernel ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:01:34 -0000 on 19/01/2012 15:21 Andrey Smagin said the following: > Hi ALL. > > Have FreeBSD internal time counters for calculate subj ? > How determine wich mutexes wait lot of time ? LOCK_PROFILING(9) looks like what you want. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 14:09:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FAA106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:09:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhellenthal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A709B8FC12 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:09:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghy10 with SMTP id 10so1549435ghy.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:09:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=4UCV6/QktwJB3JModi8lK+x8MgiP/wcU0XM8kKPUTnA=; b=i09xhupoIISvOEr28+65sOZ0OQQZhx8acmAdHhygTznOKkxcBeOk7OaMY1wVNAQLi8 fm8/6hOEi7Z9T7NefH6keBi0+J98IOHDQ/rb6CIJww+FEoYmOaHKLB3yBheVZfU0p9qf 3sReBI5Bosnd5Xyz4+oOrLAWK6pBho4GxETgg= Received: by 10.100.82.13 with SMTP id f13mr848011anb.45.1326982162815; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from DataIX.net (adsl-99-56-123-248.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net. [99.56.123.248]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q29sm18162511anh.1.2012.01.19.06.09.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:09:21 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Hellenthal Received: from DataIX.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by DataIX.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0JE9GWB005444 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:09:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhell@DataIX.net) Received: (from jhell@localhost) by DataIX.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0JE9Amc004946; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:09:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhell@DataIX.net) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:09:09 -0500 From: Jason Hellenthal To: Pegasus Mc Cleaft Message-ID: <20120119140909.GA76977@DataIX.net> References: <20120119005735.218280@gmx.com> <4F177914.5090706@missouri.edu> <20120119031908.GB95131@DataIX.net> <201201190623.00241.ken@mthelicon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201201190623.00241.ken@mthelicon.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:09:24 -0000 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 06:23:00AM +0000, Pegasus Mc Cleaft wrote: > > > > > Idea 1: Fix 'n' PRs, get a tee-shirt, fridge magnet, plush daemon, ... > > > > > > > > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats > > > > > > > > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average > > > > fixed/year Sheldon......150...............90........................72 > > > > Leonard......131..............110........................67 > > > > Howard.......104...............20........................52 > > > > Raj...........80...............80........................80 > > > > > > You should get extra points for difficult PR's. One way to measure this > > > would be to give more points for fixing older PR's than newer PR's. > > > > Number of points = number of days or weeks that a PR has been in the system > > before triage ? > > > > I would think this would put some emphasis on either triaging old PRs > > before new ones or actually postponing and assigning a status that cannot > > accumulate a higher amount of points. > > But then what? What to do with the points after they accumulate? > > Wouldn't it be cool if there was some funding or backing where you could > trade your points in for a pint or a cup of coffee? Call it "Coffee for > Coders" or the CC fund 8-) > > You know.. That might be a funny way of assigning points for a PR. How > many cups of coffee you expect to be drunk during the fixing of a PR. > > All meant tongue to cheek, of course 8-) > > Peg Yeah great point. If only someone like the foundation could secure that... -- ;s =; From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 17:04:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B444106566B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:04:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.157.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBF18FC13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:04:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mr16.lnh.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.157.36]) by smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 19 Jan 2012 11:35:28 -0500 Received: from smtp04.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp04.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.157.104]) by mr16.lnh.mail.rcn.net (MOS 4.3.4-GA) with ESMTP id BNQ94739; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:35:28 -0500 Received: from 209-6-86-84.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) ([209.6.86.84]) by smtp04.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 19 Jan 2012 11:35:28 -0500 From: Robert Huff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:35:28 -0500 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.5 (beta28) "fuki" XEmacs Lucid X-Junkmail-Whitelist: YES (by domain whitelist at mr16.lnh.mail.rcn.net) Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:04:01 -0000 Igor Mozolevsky writes: > > Wouldn't this discourage even more people from helping? > > Would this not separate people who have a genuine interest in > contributing from "tinker-monkeys"? Did I miss a previous definition of "tinker-monkey"? Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 17:47:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACD11065724 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:47:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nonesuch@longcount.org) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619FF8FC14 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:47:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgbgn7 with SMTP id gn7so227478wgb.31 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:47:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.104.4 with SMTP id ga4mr32581102wib.17.1326995272153; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.28.84 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:47:52 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [209.66.78.50] In-Reply-To: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:47:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mark Saad To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:47:53 -0000 I just want to chime in here, what is the deal with killing off a potential 7.5-RELEASE ? Having a few 7.3-RELEASE and 7.4-RELEASE servers I would like to see a 7.5-RELEASE that is supported to 2015 to prevent another major upgrade cycle . There are still freebsd developers working on 7-STABLE and its been reliable and working for me and I am sure a few other people. What could I do to help make 7.5-RELEASE a reality ? -- mark saad | nonesuch@longcount.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 19:19:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535A21065677 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:19:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164208FC17 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:18:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa03 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0JIQN8m029945; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:18:59 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.16]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12er8c06hj-79 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:18:59 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:18:53 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Robert Huff'" , References: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> In-Reply-To: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:19:23 -0800 Message-ID: <04d901ccd6df$410724a0$c3156de0$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQF64bdogDCDFr7frYR3T6gS/CWEOgEt0odWlq6MWpA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.6.7361, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-19_07:2012-01-19, 2012-01-19, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:19:00 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Robert Huff > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 8:35 AM > To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle > > > Igor Mozolevsky writes: > > > > Wouldn't this discourage even more people from helping? > > > > Would this not separate people who have a genuine interest in > > contributing from "tinker-monkeys"? > > Did I miss a previous definition of "tinker-monkey"? > And is it anything like a "tinker-tailor"? -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 19:31:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005A2106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jilles@stack.nl) Received: from mx1.stack.nl (relay04.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788378FC08 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:31:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from snail.stack.nl (snail.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::131]) by mx1.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3361DE99F; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:31:36 +0100 (CET) Received: by snail.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1677) id 171DD28468; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:31:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:31:36 +0100 From: Jilles Tjoelker To: Matthew Story Message-ID: <20120119193135.GA5955@stack.nl> References: <20120118221630.GA97471@stack.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: intent of tab-completion in /bin/sh in 9.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:31:38 -0000 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 08:46:18PM -0500, Matthew Story wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jilles Tjoelker wrote: > > POSIX itself has gradually adopted ksh features, so seeing more of them > > in future is not unlikely. Most of the new language features in 9.0 are > > either from POSIX.1-2008 or on the roadmap for a new version of POSIX > > (in collaboration with other shell authors). > Tab completion is a welcome addition, I was unaware that this had been (or > is slated to be) added to the POSIX specification. This makes far more > sense than my proposed explanations. Thanks for the clarification. Tab completion is not in POSIX and not planned to be (as far as I know), although there is some fairly ugly pathname completion functionality required in 'set -o vi' mode (we do not implement it). The reason is more like that I noticed that NetBSD had it and found someone willing to port it and add some small features (escaping special characters in what is inserted). In using /bin/sh as login shell on virtual machines (to avoid the need to install something else from ports), I have found the filename completion to be remarkably useful. -- Jilles Tjoelker From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 21:33:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE05106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:33:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com (mail-vx0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B348FC18 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:33:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so490312vcb.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:33:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=6OUjBrtQDo0E345kaRnKBi3BzdslgzMSa9y8VbnAFyQ=; b=ZftBqXvb5bQwkRjKAwoVuGP2/H20M4ZQfOyng/o02SXEqsRdEzvNIYua7W15hnLcmm IJa9FRgIdybB3D15P7SBBd4ZiOu4uibPD+GuN75Fwy2A6SILGUp9cTvFUg7vlYfxNJCF NktueT7TeypAJmnPP6U/FhJ5JvO8WQR8n1hn4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.156.134 with SMTP id x6mr16303507vcw.17.1327008820789; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:33:40 -0800 (PST) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.36.5 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:33:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:33:40 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: MWN__PmFxqmphbXfnyziyUvE-30 Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Mark Saad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:33:41 -0000 On 19 January 2012 09:47, Mark Saad wrote: > I just want to chime in here, what is the deal with killing off a > potential 7.5-RELEASE ? Having a few 7.3-RELEASE and 7.4-RELEASE > servers I would like to see a 7.5-RELEASE that is supported to 2015 > to prevent another major upgrade cycle . There are still freebsd > developers working on 7-STABLE and its been reliable and working for > me and I am sure a few other people. > > What could I do to help make 7.5-RELEASE a reality ? > Put your hand up and volunteer to run the 7.5-RELEASE release cycle. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 21:54:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381E1106564A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:54:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AA88FC0C for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:54:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbcc13 with SMTP id c13so422046pbc.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:54:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4UcmgraUlda1qPdhFmJiy+SWcMMqNh8fYIT7/naMd/o=; b=m4CbPvUy8MR5Ebb+q6dHFmAwddmChd0XtgjkccStQPIqKlUZowQTbhg/SyD+Xbea5g 96mp0ysnhJZgF5FU3JW5+JLVMqPqmxp7jAcn3d7CqQ4ctLHbZSipdfQvDzwjoFqFq5x+ RqXfnXy/ZS6FYaRqJDEbAOathjMlztkePASM8= Received: by 10.68.73.138 with SMTP id l10mr55632115pbv.65.1327010042499; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:54:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:53:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201201191155.q0JBta7i066123@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <201201191155.q0JBta7i066123@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:53:21 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zBqcrrjWxofnL_ooGx97ubd_K9Q Message-ID: To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD , edwin@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:54:03 -0000 On 19 January 2012 11:55, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> On 19 January 2012 00:57, Dieter BSD wrote: >> >> > Idea 2: Give it status. Set up a web page with PR fixing stats >> > >> > name/handle..total PRs fixed...fixed in last 12 months...average fixed= /year >> > Sheldon......150...............90........................72 >> > Leonard......131..............110........................67 >> > Howard.......104...............20........................52 >> > Raj...........80...............80........................80 >> >> You mean something like: http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? > > Wow ! =C2=A0I hope that has a link from somewhere, or appearance in, the = main tree. > If so, I suggest add a back link. http://www.freebsd.org/support/bugreports.html -> "View PR Statistics" link= :-) -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 21:59:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EFD106567A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:59:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899208FC1E for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:59:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadi14 with SMTP id i14so319315dad.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:59:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eyO7nbA2IeoIieWkEL9wlQgtoftjQeM/dpkoG7WrKVc=; b=m2+yZsZXQMPIreG6hhclW6lpaEXlfUfoMce+DsJCZI3axEIt6ZsxDIZsVgDFJ2Ui+F JTv8rdhJNLs34wcddAva2HEHpRZS3LD+ePK/UqP+2WyUgrK4iGzBc+G2lF9AKkdVk3yD EBLqJ6DG2doNkRdxvx2axKtxaXua7jlOjOIMg= Received: by 10.68.212.73 with SMTP id ni9mr56365660pbc.82.1327010396122; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:59:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mozolevsky@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.28.199 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:59:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <20248.18000.504769.86753@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:59:15 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: MsmRPoQpCjxWjdYKqeXODtFM-Jo Message-ID: To: Robert Huff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:59:56 -0000 On 19 January 2012 16:35, Robert Huff wrote: > > Igor Mozolevsky writes: > >> =C2=A0> Wouldn't this discourage even more people from helping? >> >> =C2=A0Would this not separate people who have a genuine interest in >> =C2=A0contributing from "tinker-monkeys"? > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Did I miss a previous definition of "tinker-mo= nkey"? Coders who attempt to repair or improve something in a way that lacks a plan, purpose, or enthusiasm, often to no useful effect. First coined by me in this thread :-) Cheers, -- Igor M. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:14:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8841065675; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CAB8FC08; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:14:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0JMEPdm076195; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0JMEKim076192; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:14:20 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:14:26 -0000 Hi Doug, On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Doug Barton wrote: > On 01/18/2012 11:46, John Kozubik wrote: >> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release > > While I understand your motivation, I am not sure this is a workable > goal when combined with the goal that others have expressed of longer > timelines for the support of a given branch. Speaking from personal > experience, once a service is released on a given platform the costs of > migration can be significant. And if what I have is working well and > only needs the occasional bug/security fix my motivations for migration > are near zero. So the tradeoffs then become more frequent major releases > to get new features, vs. longer support for a given release branch. Agreed. What I am saying is that that "dial" is currently set incorrectly. I think we should sacrifice new features for longer lived releases. My own experience has been that all of the new features I have benefited from did not start being useful until several releases past their introduction. For instance, one or more new releases has been, at least partly, justified by ZFS ... and yet it is only now with 8.3 that I'm even beginning to think of deploying. The same is true with the excellent SMP code we all now enjoy - it took until 6 to be usable. That would suggest that the end users don't really lose on features by delaying the new releases, since those features typically aren't ready anyway. > Let's take 5 years as a reasonable time period for supporting a branch. > Waiting that long between major releases would significantly stifle the > ability to add new features that require breaks to the [AK][BP]I. It > would also inhibit our ability to do revolutionary architectural changes > such as moving to clang as the primary supported compiler. I agree. Those are costs I am willing to pay, and I think the response to this thread shows that a lot of other folks would prefer that cost/benefit setting to the current one. > What I've proposed instead is a new major release every 2 1/2 years, > where the new release coincides with the EOL of the oldest production > release. That way we have a 5-year cycle of support for each major > branch, and no more than 2 production branches extant at one time. I think that at first glance, 2.5 or 3 years sounds completely reasonable. That's a long time, right ? The problem is, nobody uses x.0 (maybe that's rational and maybe not, but it's a fact) so subtract 6 months there, and then if the project is even readying the next major, they're going to detach focus about 6 months prior, so subtract 6 months there ... the next thing you know I'm back where I am right now: getting *maybe* 1.5 total years of *real* lifecycle out of a major release. And since that's my major complaint, I have to disagree. And that is why I am advocating a 5 year lifespan, with at least 4 of those years being totally focused - no other "production" releases. > History tells us that 2 production branches is a goal we can achieve, > with the focus shifting more heavily towards only bug/security fixes in > the oldest branch after the new production release branch is cut. If we > combine that with the ideas that are being put forward about teams that > "own" a production branch, and a more frequent stripped-down release > process, I think this is a very workable model. Well, the top of my priority list is occupied with longer lived releases, so if we get that, and we're still maintaining two production releases, it's still a big win for me. But in the bigger picture I think having two production releases simultaneously, while possible, is a bad idea. You have to optimize for something, and in practice I think both lose out. This isn't a FreeBSD issue, it's a classical resources issue. There's a reason that part of this thread got hijacked with complaints about the PR process, and that has to do with PRs getting submitted and devs deciding which production release to plug them into, etc. That's just one of many symptoms of that lack of focus. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:15:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696DA1065676 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:15:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lgj@usenix.org) Received: from lonestar.usenix.org (lonestar.usenix.org [131.106.3.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3531E8FC1B for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:15:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from negroni.usenix.org (negroni.usenix.org [131.106.3.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by lonestar.usenix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0JMEdp3013594 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:15:30 -0800 (PST) From: Lionel Garth Jones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:15:30 -0800 Message-Id: <06BB7264-4D1F-4FED-940B-810B91AB23A9@usenix.org> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-DCC-USENIX-Metrics: lonestar; whitelist X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on lonestar X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:19:39 +0000 Subject: USENIX WebApps '12 Submission Deadline Approaching X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:15:31 -0000 I'm writing to remind you that the submission deadline for the 3rd USENIX Conference on Web Application Development (WebApps '12) is approaching. Please submit all work by January 23, 2012, 11:59 p.m. http://www.usenix.org/webapps12/cfpb Like the inaugural WebApps '10 and '11, WebApps '12 seeks to attract cutting-edge research that advances the state of the art, not only of novel Web applications but also of infrastructure, frameworks, tools, and techniques that support the development, analysis/testing, operation, or deployment of those applications. Possible topics include but are not limited to: * Storage for Web-scale applications * Techniques for testing and debugging * Novel strategies for fault tolerance or high availability in Web apps * The Web as an emerging platform in new application areas * Making Web apps social and integrating with social utilities, e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Google+ * HCI techniques related specifically to Web apps * Measurement, modeling, workload generation, and other tools to aid experimental research on Web apps * New and unusual app features or implementation techniques * Media delivery applications and infrastructure * Client-side libraries, toolkits, plug-ins * Server-side frameworks * Languages and language engineering advances relevant to Web app development * Deployment substrates and technologies (cloud computing, infrastructure as a service, testing as a service, etc.) WebApps '12 will consist of a single track of refereed papers and, new this year, a set of short paper demos. Papers with practical significance and/or working prototypes will be preferred over purely theoretical results. Short paper demo submissions must have a working prototype. Submitted papers must be no longer than 12 pages for regular papers and 6 pages for demo papers, including figures, tables, and references. For more details on the submission process, advice on how to prepare a competitive paper, and templates to use with LaTeX, Word, etc., authors should consult http://www.usenix.org/events/webapps12/cfp/requirements.html WebApps '12 will take place June 13-14, 2012, in Boston, MA. It is a co-located event that occurs during USENIX Federated Conferences Week, which spans June 12-15, 2012. I look forward to receiving your submissions. Sincerely, Michael Maximilien, IBM Research--Watson WebApps '12 Program Chair webapps12chair@usenix.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Call for Papers: 3rd USENIX Conference on Web Application Development (WebApps '12) June 13-14, 2012, Boston, MA http://www.usenix.org/webapps12/cfpb Paper submissions deadline: January 23, 2012, 11:59 p.m. PST ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:30:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E301065672 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EEC3D8FC0A for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:30:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 17835 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jan 2012 22:30:30 -0000 Received: from 67.206.162.46 by rms-us017 with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:30:27 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120119223028.218280@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: 0/xqbyA03zOlNR3dAHAh4VF+IGRvb8DF Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:30:32 -0000 Igor writes: > You mean something like: http://people.freebsd.org/~edwin/gnats/ ? Daniel writes: > http://www.oook.cz/bsd/prstats/ Yes, something like these. Stephen writes: > You should get extra points for difficult PR's. One way to measure this > would be to give more points for fixing older PR's than newer PR's. Older might be harder, or it might mean boring, or seen as less important. It might be worth giving more points for old PRs regardless, to help get the old ones fixed. The main goal here is to get PRs fixed. It just feels wrong to have PRs sitting around for years on end, and if it is a significant problem you can be sure that the submitter is unhappy about not having a fix. A longer PR might be more difficult. A complex problem takes longer to describe, and longer to fix, than just "there is a typo in the foo(1) man page". One problem is PRs that are closed without being fixed. Some of these are legitimate (dups, submitter error, already fixed in newer release, ...) but some shouldn't have been closed. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:33:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7231065673 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:33:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.mail.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 49A548FC14 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:33:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 4106 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jan 2012 22:33:06 -0000 Received: from 67.206.162.46 by rms-us015 with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:33:03 -0500 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120119223304.218280@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: d/9qbyA03zOlNR3dAHAhtFF+IGRvb0DA Subject: Re: Giant lock gone? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:33:15 -0000 >>> The original goal for 5.0 was to completely remove the Giant lock (and >>> do other cool SMP-related stuff). Eventually it was realized that this >>> was too big a goal to fully accomplish in 5.0 (albeit too late in the >>> process) and the goal was changed to do the basic framework for the new >>> SMP model; and lay the groundwork for "some things run under Giant for >>> now, and we'll remove it from them ASAP." That actually turned out to >>> last through 6, making 7 the realization of what 5.0 was supposed to be. >> >> So you are saying that the Giant lock was completely removed in 7.0? >> >> 8.2 says: >> >> atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] >> psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > Yeah, I think nitpicking minor details about Giant still being used on > non-critical drivers is definitely the key to solving the problems that > face FreeBSD today. > > I could have more thoroughly clarified the reality of the when/where/how > of Giant but it really wasn't central to my point. Sigh. I wasn't intending to nitpick, I was confused and curious by the apparient contradiction between "completely remove" and what I saw. 8.2 again: find /usr/src/sys | xargs grep -i giant | wc -l 2018 Skimming though the output of grep, a few are just false positives, but most appear to involve the Giant lock. Perhaps these are all unimportant, I don't know. Apologies to anyone I upset. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:39:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281D81065674 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:39:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 172-17-198-245.globalsuite.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6E6153DC6; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:39:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:39:10 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton To: John Kozubik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:39:12 -0000 On Thu, 19 Jan 2012, John Kozubik wrote: > > Hi Doug, > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Doug Barton wrote: > >> On 01/18/2012 11:46, John Kozubik wrote: >>> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release >> >> While I understand your motivation, I am not sure this is a workable >> goal when combined with the goal that others have expressed of longer >> timelines for the support of a given branch. Speaking from personal >> experience, once a service is released on a given platform the costs of >> migration can be significant. And if what I have is working well and >> only needs the occasional bug/security fix my motivations for migration >> are near zero. So the tradeoffs then become more frequent major releases >> to get new features, vs. longer support for a given release branch. > > > Agreed. What I am saying is that that "dial" is currently set incorrectly. > I think we should sacrifice new features for longer lived releases. There are at least 2 problems with that. First, often the new features are either really useful, or actually necessary. Second, "getting new features into a production release" is one of the motivating factors for FreeBSD developers. Yes, I agree with others in this thread that the pendulum has swung too far in allowing people free reign with little/no responsibility for followup. But we still have to acknowledge that reality. > My own experience has been that all of the new features I have benefited from > did not start being useful until several releases past their introduction. I both understand this, and have experienced it myself. The answer to that is to raise the bar higher for what goes into HEAD, such that more developers (and especially users) can be using it on a more frequent basis. In that way fewer bugs exist in the first place, and the ones that exist (because of hardware differences, etc.) are found and fixed prior to the .0 release. > That would suggest that the end users don't really lose on features by > delaying the new releases, since those features typically aren't ready > anyway. I think "typically" is stretching it a bit here. As humans we tend to focus our attention on the things that cause us problems, rather than acknowledging (or even being aware of) the things that are working well in the background. >> Let's take 5 years as a reasonable time period for supporting a branch. >> Waiting that long between major releases would significantly stifle the >> ability to add new features that require breaks to the [AK][BP]I. It >> would also inhibit our ability to do revolutionary architectural changes >> such as moving to clang as the primary supported compiler. > > > I agree. Those are costs I am willing to pay, and I think the response to > this thread shows that a lot of other folks would prefer that cost/benefit > setting to the current one. Personally, that message has been clearly understood. So the challenge at this point is to come up with a plan that can accomplish as much as possible of what the users need while still being sufficiently attractive to our volunteer developers to actually get things done. >> What I've proposed instead is a new major release every 2 1/2 years, >> where the new release coincides with the EOL of the oldest production >> release. That way we have a 5-year cycle of support for each major >> branch, and no more than 2 production branches extant at one time. > > > I think that at first glance, 2.5 or 3 years sounds completely reasonable. You're not following the math. :) I'm proposing a 5 year support cycle for each production branch. > But in the bigger picture I think having two production releases > simultaneously, while possible, is a bad idea. You have to optimize for > something, and in practice I think both lose out. This isn't a FreeBSD > issue, it's a classical resources issue. I freely concede that 2 production releases is stretching us to the limit of our abilities. I think that this will be improved by the idea of having teams of developers who are responsible for shepherding each production branch. But now speaking as a consumer of FreeBSD, 2 production branches is something that *I* definitely want. If for no other reason than because it gives me options in case the newest one doesn't work out for me for some reason. It also helps with the ".0 problem" that you're concerned about, although I am still hopeful that we can fix that problem by actually fixing that problem. Doug -- It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short. Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:43:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741F5106566B; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:43:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EA28FC12; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:43:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0JMhhBq076500; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0JMhcQ7076497; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:38 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:43:44 -0000 Hi Doug, On Thu, 19 Jan 2012, Doug Barton wrote: >>> What I've proposed instead is a new major release every 2 1/2 years, >>> where the new release coincides with the EOL of the oldest production >>> release. That way we have a 5-year cycle of support for each major >>> branch, and no more than 2 production branches extant at one time. >> >> >> I think that at first glance, 2.5 or 3 years sounds completely reasonable. > > You're not following the math. :) I'm proposing a 5 year support cycle for > each production branch. Yes, you're right - I missed that. 5 year support, and overlapping 2.5 year majors ... provided that minors got increased to 3 per year ... would be fantastic. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 22:54:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D998106566B; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:54:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vx0-f182.google.com (mail-vx0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CFD8FC08; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:54:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so571061vcb.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8GHj01RCf/S1IXArYnGCjYXkRBjVJ/4CThK2zN8vnWo=; b=T6xrjyvGMdj1AlBqW8JWVEbibKACO/QBDLKqiTnxnSi1Ao9hOM3OgxX60rA9jxTEoN b/YfEYIaLwjHuMYfTT+t3+7WPiczrxFJF72Ff2oONmvijkGiqBS2VLd9+BCtl/EKwJjs J7MzhRIs3Hlce+RDNFvneU9C4FueNnJQpa3vM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.156.134 with SMTP id x6mr16412810vcw.17.1327013695838; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.52.36.5 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> <4F1707E6.4020905@FreeBSD.org> <4F172B1E.30401@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:54:55 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VOXL2ZUx5GQLfikQmT9CzeTPUOY Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: John Kozubik Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Doug Barton Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:54:57 -0000 .. and people _do_ realise that this is all mostly driven by volunteers, right? The companies/individuals that _could_ run this kind of thing do it internally. So you're left with volunteers doing the public releases instead of the vendors who are asking for it. Honestly, I think the re@ and ports building teams would _love_ some help. If you'd like to see this happen, step up and offer your assistance. That's the most likely way to achieve your goal. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 19 23:14:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A12A1065675 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:14:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [216.218.240.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562348FC08 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:14:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0JNDwuK076792; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id q0JNDr5c076789; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:13:53 -0800 (PST) From: John Kozubik To: Dieter BSD In-Reply-To: <20120119005658.218280@gmx.com> Message-ID: References: <20120119005658.218280@gmx.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:14:00 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Dieter BSD wrote: > John writes: >> - EOL 7 >> - mark 8 as legacy >> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release >> - release 10.0 in January 2017 > > Until a few days ago 8 was the latest, shinest release. > So you want to suddenly demote it all the way down to legacy? > I thought the goal was to have releases that can be used for a long time? No, that's not quite what I meant. I was speaking at the same time about the problem of having two concurrent "production" releases. Since 9.0 is already released, you can't stop having two production releases with 8, since 9 is already here. So i was saying *after* you continue the normal 8.x lifecycle (perhaps another 1 or 1.5 years, getting it to 8.5 *then* you make the drastic changes, which I showed in the list above. So 8 would become legacy on the same schedule that it always had. No changes there. The change comes with 9 being the only production release, and 10.0-RELEASE being delayed. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 01:07:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52623106564A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:07:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from w3.lemis.com (w3.lemis.com [208.86.224.149]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222038FC0A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:07:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dereel.lemis.com (1032.x.rootbsd.net [208.86.224.149]) by w3.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA223B752; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 00:57:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dereel.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 70D38DADA8; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:57:42 +1100 (EST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:57:42 +1100 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Dieter BSD Message-ID: <20120120005742.GC41280@dereel.lemis.com> References: <20120119005820.218250@gmx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qtZFehHsKgwS5rPz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120119005820.218250@gmx.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-3-5346-1370 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Giant lock gone? (was: Re: ...focus, longevity, and lifecycle) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:07:48 -0000 --qtZFehHsKgwS5rPz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 18 January 2012 at 19:58:19 -0500, Dieter BSD wrote: >> The original goal for 5.0 was to completely remove the Giant lock (and >> do other cool SMP-related stuff). Eventually it was realized that this >> was too big a goal to fully accomplish in 5.0 (albeit too late in the >> process) and the goal was changed to do the basic framework for the new >> SMP model; and lay the groundwork for "some things run under Giant for >> now, and we'll remove it from them ASAP." That actually turned out to >> last through 6, making 7 the realization of what 5.0 was supposed to be. > > So you are saying that the Giant lock was completely removed in 7.0? Giant is still there in 9.0. It's a pity you didn't say who you were quoting there. To my knowledge we never intended to completely remove Giant in 5.x. We realised from the start that it would take a long time. See http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-jun2000.php for what we decided 12 years ago. Point 6 suggests removing the "Giant Kernel Spinlock", but that is misleading. We did that, and we gave the name Giant to the "blocking mutex for the kernel". Previously Giant didn't have a name, because it was the only one. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft MUA reports problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua --qtZFehHsKgwS5rPz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk8YvAYACgkQIubykFB6QiMvIQCeJG27exCl4f899zmB+tGy42PR K+wAn3use1P01BSC7CYavchCMgIFdMmK =XaTK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qtZFehHsKgwS5rPz-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 01:53:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE04106564A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:53:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8448FC19 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so57487lah.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:53:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=seKaXjTHDuxKQ+K/U76hFpdFD7jmrqdgwNsa+v8ut+E=; b=TES04BEYjabFRnWwv7H1V6GqqvVl2zr1t2S730W9BszQsk+ZBPwrR6iIF4D0YYw1cX RbeEGyWHYgehVwZ4FLa16KBLwL2aaQmOlTlN8K7UBzW9FXXc36XwxEc7nMO5HAbtKPuK nrOW3C0L+5FPY1tq9p7RdvVPNO2DpSFhxWloA= Received: by 10.112.82.226 with SMTP id l2mr7050953lby.102.1327024386148; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:53:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.25.196 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:52:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120119223028.218280@gmx.com> References: <20120119223028.218280@gmx.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:52:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dieter BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:53:09 -0000 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Dieter BSD wrote: > One problem is PRs that are closed without being fixed. Some of these > are legitimate (dups, submitter error, already fixed in newer release, ...) > but some shouldn't have been closed. Please let me know which ones shouldn't have been closed. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 02:57:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F304F106566C for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:57:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-iy0-f196.google.com (mail-iy0-f196.google.com [209.85.210.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CA68FC0C for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:57:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so33470iag.7 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.89.197 with SMTP id bq5mr30681912igb.24.1327028228050; Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from bhuda.mired.org (173-164-244-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [173.164.244.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id or2sm41732891igc.5.2012.01.19.18.57.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:57:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:57:04 -0800 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120119185704.268327ba@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10 (GTK+ 2.22.1; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.2) Face: 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 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:57:10 -0000 On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:07:43 +0100 vermaden wrote: > I got these maintainers email addresses from http://freshports.org > page, are they up-to-date there? Maybe that is the problem and > that my mails jest went to /dev/null ... Just checking for sure. I dunno. If you want the maintainer as of your update of the ports tree, go to the port and do "make -V MAINTAINER". I've generally had good luck with ports. I ran for years with LOCALBASE set to /usr/opt (what can I say, I was a masochist). I'd regularly find ports that failed to build under those conditions. I'd try and patch the port to fix it, or sometimes just kludge it to work, then mail the maintainer with the patch. Most of them fixed things pretty quickly. Ditto after the conversion to rc.d - I'd find ports that needed such scripts, write them, and send them to the maintainer. There, my patches weren't accepted as is quite so often, but I generally saw an appropriate script (even if inferior to mine :-) fairly quickly. And as a port maintainer, I tried to respond quickly to such requests. Getting patches accepted was a spottier story. It generally worked better if I approached the maintainer with "I'd like to fix this/add this feature, are you interested" than just submitting patches to gnats. http://www.mired.org/ Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 07:52:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5638F106564A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:52:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@herveybayaustralia.com.au) Received: from mail.unitedinsong.com.au (mail.unitedinsong.com.au [150.101.178.33]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFF98FC0A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from laptop1.herveybayaustralia.com.au (laptop1.herveybayaustralia.com.au [192.168.0.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.unitedinsong.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9D895C28 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:48:50 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <4F19188A.4090907@herveybayaustralia.com.au> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:32:26 +1000 From: Da Rock User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20111109 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20120119005658.218280@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 07:52:22 -0000 On 01/20/12 09:13, John Kozubik wrote: > > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Dieter BSD wrote: > >> John writes: >>> - EOL 7 >>> - mark 8 as legacy >>> - mark 9 as the _only_ production release >>> - release 10.0 in January 2017 >> >> Until a few days ago 8 was the latest, shinest release. >> So you want to suddenly demote it all the way down to legacy? >> I thought the goal was to have releases that can be used for a long >> time? > > > No, that's not quite what I meant. > > I was speaking at the same time about the problem of having two > concurrent "production" releases. > > Since 9.0 is already released, you can't stop having two production > releases with 8, since 9 is already here. > > So i was saying *after* you continue the normal 8.x lifecycle (perhaps > another 1 or 1.5 years, getting it to 8.5 *then* you make the drastic > changes, which I showed in the list above. > > So 8 would become legacy on the same schedule that it always had. No > changes there. The change comes with 9 being the only production > release, and 10.0-RELEASE being delayed. I'll weigh in :) I can sympathise with the need for longer support; but then on the other hand that means for things like fixes for drivers you have to wait 2 years or more- I've already done that, and I've been happier when things finally "just work" rather than having to root around and try to get things to work in any way I can. Case in point: I had a laptop with an iwn driver, there was no support for it, and it was going to wait for 8.0 (7.0 at the time). There was no option to backport as the driver wasn't working in current, so I tried to get involved and help but that quickly stagnated. So I was stuck to a cable (age had to be backported) and finally in 8 it worked, and wpa_supplicant was finally fixed as well. And when everything worked my laptop died and I bought another! :( Now I have ath. ath didn't work in 8. I tried a backport from current, and it worked for a bit and broke in 8.2. I was then forced to work with 9.0-RCx. Waiting longer would not have been an option- I was looking for a release date or some idea on where 9.0-RELEASE was at but the information was outdated and scarce. I was also hoping to get 802.11n support. Now apparently that is not really an option until 10. So what do I do? Some support is backported, but not all can be due to unresolvable API differences, same as what happened back with iwn. So based on this I face a continually moving target: my hardware lifetimes and the ability to keep up with new hardware produced by the dev team. I'd like to get involved, but drivers are still very much an enigma as yet. I also keep getting told to use current to help with testing, but given my userbase I can't do this without screams of agony, and vm's are useless here for hardware testing. I'm also advised to follow stable, but again- same deal. So I'm always asking myself "why is it so hard to run release?" I've read this entire thread now, but I still can't see a specific answer that resolves the issues presented. IF releases are supported longer, then backports are a must as near as I can see, but if the APIs are too different then how? If hardware or other feature support takes too long then users go elsewhere as well. I can't help being stubborn as mule, working with something no matter how hard it is, but I'm sure most users/sysadmins aren't. If a split was made between server and desktop edition that would be a disaster I believe. The only reason all this works so well is because there is no difference. The features required to make desktop more "user friendly" need to be added (probably by ports) as required, but that wouldn't kill server support. That only adds more labor to an already stressed environment. I will put my hand up to help with RE, or whatever will help in this situation; maybe even customised releases for rollouts for different organisations interested? I have cpu cycles to burn, and my missus is even egging me on :) I have enough systems to warrant this even for my own needs, and I'm sure I could pull it off with some help. My needs are more desktop than server though, and that should be helpful for the majority as support doesn't just stop at just what will provide for the sysadmins. I'll help in any way I can, if I get some support as well that would be handy. One thing that stands out to me I think is that svn (or similar) is a definite must and the cvs is too archaic for the needs here. The code freeze seems to be a real hindrance to a "healthy" release. Also, as to bugs, cannot some of the processes be automated (scripted?) somehow? Say if a patch is commited, can't this be detected and tested and a report sent to the stakeholders/interested parties? Depending on skill level required my missus could help on the poking side of things... On another point, Adrian: you mention that one can get involved, but that does seem to be an overwhelming task. I've tried to put up my hand a few times, but got lost in the clutter somehow. So how does one do it? I've put in a port to gnats, but that requires a committer to notice and actually commit so it seems to be a "who you know" thing. Although it seems that times are getting tougher now, and now one can get more noticed in the crowd... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 08:29:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308051065673 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:29:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (pancho.soaustin.net [76.74.250.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9478FC16 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:29:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 655A056173; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:29:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:29:00 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Igor Mozolevsky Message-ID: <20120120082900.GA32491@lonesome.com> References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <20120117010239.GA29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> <20120117022544.GB29529@richh-imac.office.boxdice.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:36:55 +0000 Cc: richo , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@futurecis.com, William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:29:01 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 02:43:21AM +0000, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > To be realistic, I think any serious developer should expect to spend > 70% of their development time on maintenance s/developer/paid developer/ and you've got a correct model of how commercial software companies work. mcl From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 08:58:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA24106566C; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (pancho.soaustin.net [76.74.250.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532178FC0A; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id DAD2A56173; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:58:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 02:58:52 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Daniel Eischen Message-ID: <20120120085852.GB32491@lonesome.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:58:43 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Adrian Chadd , Igor Mozolevsky Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 08:58:53 -0000 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 06:45:17PM -0500, Daniel Eischen wrote: > The problem I have with ports is that there is not a -stable branch > that tracks with -stable core. We've been working for 18 months to try to get the hardware infrastructure in place to be able to consider such approaches. > It doesn't even have to be every port, just the commonly used ports. That's easy in theory, but extremely difficult in practice. The infra- sturcture is far more heavyweight (because of demand for features) than most people give it credit for. There's no concept of "subset of ports tree". Go examine the hierarchy and it will become apparent why. Even a "server-only" concept doesn't get you as far as you might think. Again, "the general problem is hard". mcl From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 10:53:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5462F106564A; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:53:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A5E8FC18; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p4FC4350F.dip.t-dialin.net [79.196.53.15]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0416B844049; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:52:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (unknown [85.94.224.20]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71D7613D1; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:52:42 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=Leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1327056763; bh=x9VAniCRofzewibnoSieuGqXGF0yqbmDTDl229C18YI=; h=Date:Subject:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CtLzc+ad94DY/fQVOGwYoCL5ftt7cWCAYbKXlpBpDHRRZiJKRQ41zCfEHOLMLZRMd GUHe/RhPuUbZWMOKVjZavp2He4EvwtAaYzznj6GyzoCmWq3WLw93DKURaSkj2qaEcC sq16hslLH9cLQ0Tb9Vg7poKkuvEwzbRvzopIfnYxhKmo2EhZD5fQh60rf1u50Xw6hy Znt1U2zWtH7ECg1mzhLS40dj8mo/FHswRe4mWAltwe90NJ2st2yxyWjVtB2DpT8GNh ECA9uawzeJUZCQxOTt8TkZ+v+5T3prUKmeqgsBx7WuB+2YT+gMWO0SqdHpEngL35V2 0UHFtE/9b1YqA== Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:51:35 +0100 Message-ID: Importance: normal From: Alexander Leidinger To: adrian@freebsd.org, john@kozubik.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 0416B844049.A34E5 X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.099, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, DKIM_SIGNED 0.10, DKIM_VALID -0.10, DKIM_VALID_AU -0.10, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1327661567.11721@FUOhov9WcKlmPXY8lZLNlw X-EBL-Spam-Status: No X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:59:14 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dougb@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:53:00 -0000 SGksCgpJIHRoaW5rIHNvbWUgdG9vbHMgY291bGQgaGVscCBoZXJlLiBJZiB1c2VycyBhcmUgYWJs ZSB0byBzdWJtaXQgcGF0Y2hlcyB0byBicmFuY2hlcyB0aGV5IGFyZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGFu ZCBzb21lIGF1dG9tYXRpYyBjb21waWxlL3N0eWxlL3doYXRldmVyIHRlc3RpbmcgZm9yIHRoZW0s IGl0IHdvdWxkIGFscmVhZHkgaGVscC4gU2VlIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubGVpZGluZ2VyLm5ldC9ibG9n LyBmb3IgYSBtb3JlIGRldGFpbGVkIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9uIG9mIHRoaXMuCgpCeWUsCkFsZXhhbmRl ci4KCi0tIApTZW5kIHZpYSBhbiBBbmRyb2lkIGRldmljZSwgcGxlYXNlIGZvcmdpdmUgYnJldml0 eSBhbmQgdHlwb2dyYXBoaWMgYW5kIHNwZWxsaW5nIGVycm9ycy4gCgpBZHJpYW4gQ2hhZGQgPGFk cmlhbkBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz4gaGF0IGdlc2NocmllYmVuOi4uIGFuZCBwZW9wbGUgX2RvXyByZWFs aXNlIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBpcyBhbGwgbW9zdGx5IGRyaXZlbiBieSB2b2x1bnRlZXJzLApyaWdodD8K ClRoZSBjb21wYW5pZXMvaW5kaXZpZHVhbHMgdGhhdCBfY291bGRfIHJ1biB0aGlzIGtpbmQgb2Yg dGhpbmcgZG8gaXQKaW50ZXJuYWxseS4gU28geW91J3JlIGxlZnQgd2l0aCB2b2x1bnRlZXJzIGRv aW5nIHRoZSBwdWJsaWMgcmVsZWFzZXMKaW5zdGVhZCBvZiB0aGUgdmVuZG9ycyB3aG8gYXJlIGFz a2luZyBmb3IgaXQuCgpIb25lc3RseSwgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgcmVAIGFuZCBwb3J0cyBidWlsZGlu ZyB0ZWFtcyB3b3VsZCBfbG92ZV8gc29tZSBoZWxwLgpJZiB5b3UnZCBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSB0aGlz IGhhcHBlbiwgc3RlcCB1cCBhbmQgb2ZmZXIgeW91ciBhc3Npc3RhbmNlLiBUaGF0J3MKdGhlIG1v c3QgbGlrZWx5IHdheSB0byBhY2hpZXZlIHlvdXIgZ29hbC4KCgpBZHJpYW4KX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KZnJlZWJzZC1oYWNrZXJzQGZyZWVi c2Qub3JnIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9mcmVlYnNkLWhhY2tlcnMKVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUsIHNlbmQgYW55IG1haWwgdG8gImZy ZWVic2QtaGFja2Vycy11bnN1YnNjcmliZUBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZyIKCg== From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 13:38:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7B2106564A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:38:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cell.glebius.int.ru (glebius.int.ru [81.19.64.117]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34ED58FC08 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:38:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cell.glebius.int.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cell.glebius.int.ru (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0KDcQVB017270; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:38:26 +0400 (MSK) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from glebius@localhost) by cell.glebius.int.ru (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0KDcQNm017269; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:38:26 +0400 (MSK) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cell.glebius.int.ru: glebius set sender to glebius@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:38:26 +0400 From: Gleb Smirnoff To: Damien Fleuriot Message-ID: <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:38:28 -0000 Damien, On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:09:55AM +0100, Damien Fleuriot wrote: D> I'm having an increasingly difficult time defending FreeBSD in our D> company against the advances of debian kfree which is much easier to D> maintain. D> Can we get back to the 4.x release style and, hopefully, see some 9.7, D> 9.8... ? D> D> Check this PR I opened some months ago: D> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=161123&cat=kern D> D> It was planned for 9.0-RELEASE, there is no mention of 8.x D> That's just the kind of problem John raises here. D> D> I can't keep on defending FreeBSD when the minor fix to a major bug D> isn't backported, and only makes it to the next major version, 4 or 5 D> months from now. Hey, what's the problem here? Fix for kern/161123 has been committed to stable/8! You reminded me, and I promptly did merge, w/o any argument, albeit I have no ability to test it properly on stable/8. I trust you, that you have tested in on stable/8, but if anything breaks, guess who would be blamed: me or you? -- Totus tuus, Glebius. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 13:43:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4AE1065670 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:43:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@my.gd) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBE48FC0A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:43:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgbdr11 with SMTP id dr11so597932wgb.31 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.20.69 with SMTP id l5mr3848873wie.19.1327067037965; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfleuriot-at-hi-media.com ([83.167.62.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l8sm9216623wiy.5.2012.01.20.05.43.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 05:43:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F196F9B.3050506@my.gd> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:43:55 +0100 From: Damien Fleuriot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gleb Smirnoff References: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:43:59 -0000 On 1/20/12 2:38 PM, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > Damien, > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:09:55AM +0100, Damien Fleuriot wrote: > D> I'm having an increasingly difficult time defending FreeBSD in our > D> company against the advances of debian kfree which is much easier to > D> maintain. > D> Can we get back to the 4.x release style and, hopefully, see some 9.7, > D> 9.8... ? > D> > D> Check this PR I opened some months ago: > D> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=161123&cat=kern > D> > D> It was planned for 9.0-RELEASE, there is no mention of 8.x > D> That's just the kind of problem John raises here. > D> > D> I can't keep on defending FreeBSD when the minor fix to a major bug > D> isn't backported, and only makes it to the next major version, 4 or 5 > D> months from now. > > Hey, what's the problem here? Fix for kern/161123 has been committed to > stable/8! > > You reminded me, and I promptly did merge, w/o any argument, albeit I have > no ability to test it properly on stable/8. I trust you, that you have tested > in on stable/8, but if anything breaks, guess who would be blamed: me or you? > Don't be mistaken, I greatly appreciate the work you put into this and the time you devoted to fixing this issue which was *a real annoyance* in our case. I'm not saying you didn't merge it Gleb, I'm saying for a loooooooong time I had to manually patch the 8.2-RELEASE boxes, because for some reason that I don't know/understand, the patch couldn't (and still hasn't been, I guess) be merged with 8.2-RELEASE. Actually, on topic, what prevents patches from being merged with -RELEASE, as opposed to waiting for a new -RELEASE bump ? Regarding the patch, we've been running it since I submitted it on over 20 firewalls and they're all humming happily. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 13:59:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE73106564A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:59:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cell.glebius.int.ru (glebius.int.ru [81.19.64.117]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4018FC0A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cell.glebius.int.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cell.glebius.int.ru (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0KDxbJd017423; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:59:37 +0400 (MSK) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from glebius@localhost) by cell.glebius.int.ru (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0KDxawT017422; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:59:36 +0400 (MSK) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cell.glebius.int.ru: glebius set sender to glebius@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:59:36 +0400 From: Gleb Smirnoff To: Damien Fleuriot Message-ID: <20120120135936.GC16676@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> <4F196F9B.3050506@my.gd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F196F9B.3050506@my.gd> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:59:39 -0000 On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 02:43:55PM +0100, Damien Fleuriot wrote: D> Don't be mistaken, I greatly appreciate the work you put into this and D> the time you devoted to fixing this issue which was *a real annoyance* D> in our case. D> D> I'm not saying you didn't merge it Gleb, I'm saying for a loooooooong D> time I had to manually patch the 8.2-RELEASE boxes, because for some D> reason that I don't know/understand, the patch couldn't (and still D> hasn't been, I guess) be merged with 8.2-RELEASE. D> D> Actually, on topic, what prevents patches from being merged with D> -RELEASE, as opposed to waiting for a new -RELEASE bump ? It cannot be merged into RELEASE! RELEASE is a point on a branch, as soon as RELEASE had been released, you can't push anything into it, unless you have a time machine. So, the fix has been merged to the branch you reported problem on, this means that it'll be available in the next release from this branch - in 8.3-RELEASE. -- Totus tuus, Glebius. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 14:27:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C03F1065678; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:27:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@my.gd) Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com (mail-wi0-f182.google.com [209.85.212.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03EA08FC0A; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:27:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhn14 with SMTP id hn14so715340wib.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.95.199 with SMTP id dm7mr52376769wib.9.1327069620998; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfleuriot-at-hi-media.com ([83.167.62.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dm10sm9597109wib.4.2012.01.20.06.26.59 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 Jan 2012 06:27:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F1979B2.9050908@my.gd> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:26:58 +0100 From: Damien Fleuriot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gleb Smirnoff References: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> <4F196F9B.3050506@my.gd> <20120120135936.GC16676@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20120120135936.GC16676@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:27:02 -0000 On 1/20/12 2:59 PM, Gleb Smirnoff wrote: > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 02:43:55PM +0100, Damien Fleuriot wrote: > D> Don't be mistaken, I greatly appreciate the work you put into this and > D> the time you devoted to fixing this issue which was *a real annoyance* > D> in our case. > D> > D> I'm not saying you didn't merge it Gleb, I'm saying for a loooooooong > D> time I had to manually patch the 8.2-RELEASE boxes, because for some > D> reason that I don't know/understand, the patch couldn't (and still > D> hasn't been, I guess) be merged with 8.2-RELEASE. > D> > D> Actually, on topic, what prevents patches from being merged with > D> -RELEASE, as opposed to waiting for a new -RELEASE bump ? > > It cannot be merged into RELEASE! RELEASE is a point on a branch, > as soon as RELEASE had been released, you can't push anything into > it, unless you have a time machine. > > So, the fix has been merged to the branch you reported problem on, > this means that it'll be available in the next release from this > branch - in 8.3-RELEASE. > Ok good to know (and too bad for us running -RELEASE). I guess at some point I'll have to study the possibility of us running -STABLE, perhaps that would be acceptable. Thanks for ensuring it'll be in 8.3 anyway :) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 17:58:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E176C106564A for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:58:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2578FC18 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:58:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so897346vbb.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=YW3Vz1Ye+0Tc1a8SwPCZl9S0bT4BL4Z4IOnovHw6a0c=; b=Sstn6s2l1hKIFGnhoIjUhbcD52C8ZaMORsARNsNEwunyfaREAsmvU5f//FUxj1/nEU U1bUlqXJCG3zhtSpKbKI7xsDFia60xhOG3N3IaOILmitayOcIpunjIDON44lJLVmyiQt ZOr9TgRHLQJyDsLdWAh/+2R0YP/1FlKUvpQzk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.33.239 with SMTP id u15mr15234527vdi.49.1327082286706; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.117.11 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120120135936.GC16676@FreeBSD.org> References: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> <4F196F9B.3050506@my.gd> <20120120135936.GC16676@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:58:06 -0800 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: Gleb Smirnoff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:58:08 -0000 2012/1/20 Gleb Smirnoff : > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 02:43:55PM +0100, Damien Fleuriot wrote: > D> Don't be mistaken, I greatly appreciate the work you put into this and > D> the time you devoted to fixing this issue which was *a real annoyance* > D> in our case. > D> > D> I'm not saying you didn't merge it Gleb, I'm saying for a loooooooong > D> time I had to manually patch the 8.2-RELEASE boxes, because for some > D> reason that I don't know/understand, the patch couldn't (and still > D> hasn't been, I guess) be merged with 8.2-RELEASE. > D> > D> Actually, on topic, what prevents patches from being merged with > D> -RELEASE, as opposed to waiting for a new -RELEASE bump ? > > It cannot be merged into RELEASE! RELEASE is a point on a branch, > as soon as RELEASE had been released, you can't push anything into > it, unless you have a time machine. I think he's asking "what's the criteria to push a patch to RELENG_8_2, the security/fixes branch of -RELEASE?" IOW, how does one increase the patch level (8.2-RELEASE-p5 -> 8.2-RELEASE-p6, etc) of a release? I believe, and RE/security team can correct me on this, that the criteria is along the lines of "security issues and major bug fixes only". Perhaps that policy should be looked at and loosened slightly to also include "driver updates"? Or something along those lines? Perhaps look at releasing point releases (8.2.1) like DoubB suggested? -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 21:56:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEE41065674; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:56:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chrcoluk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA3F8FC0C; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:56:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iagz16 with SMTP id z16so2237545iag.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:56:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dB8fpsWHStyUyzP5wLjOYwULqDQmrKqCAEIBKndRGkM=; b=j8YhPjCl3y6GY5G6bmc1ZqyzZyPpAys4TXlk0hVKlgnx+Vjne5vCe75bcAxZ/7cDjJ 8YIl4GuBajzFjDmAcicsM2pyX5aGQ1q/NmNLDE20HBHxMbjF2dDnlmDaVU3VE2FMMhPS /vh/AyFRckaBFa/nwgLB4kUKx7CW6jthh2cSM= Received: by 10.50.168.4 with SMTP id zs4mr140428igb.25.1327094742144; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.53.199 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:25:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> <4F14BAA7.9070707@freebsd.org> <4F16A5B8.2080903@FreeBSD.org> From: Chris Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:25:21 +0000 Message-ID: To: Daniel Eischen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 22:03:55 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, WBentley@futurecis.com, Robert Watson , Andriy Gapon , William Bentley Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 21:56:04 -0000 On 18 January 2012 17:13, Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote: > >> on 18/01/2012 12:44 Robert Watson said the following: >> >>> My view is therefore that we have a "social" -- which is to say >>> structural -- >>> problem. =A0Regardless of ".0" releases, we should be forcing out minor >>> releases, >>> which are morally similar to "service packs" in the vocabulary of other >>> vendors: >>> device driver improvements, new CPU support, steady of conservative >>> feature >>> development, etc, required to keep older major releases viable on >>> contemporary >>> hardware and with contemporary applications. =A0One known problem is us= ing >>> a >>> single "head" release engineer in steering all releases. I think this i= s >>> a >>> mistake, as it makes the whole project's release schedule subject to >>> individual >>> unavailability, burnout, etc, as well as increasing the risks associate= d >>> with >>> low bus factor. =A0I'd like to see us move to a model where new release >>> engineers >>> are mentored in from the developer community for point releases, ensuri= ng >>> that >>> we increase our expertise, share knowledge about release engineering in >>> the >>> broader community, and get new eyes on the process which can lead more >>> readily >>> to process improvements. =A0The role of the "head" release engineer >>> shouldn't be >>> hands-on prodution of every release, but rather, steering of the overal= l >>> team. >>> >>> I'd like to see this begin with 8.3, drawing a per-release lead from th= e >>> developer community, and continue with a fixed schedule release of 8.4. >>> =A0Yes, >>> more staffing is needed, but first, what is needed is an improvement in >>> model. >> >> >> Robert, >> >> I think that in addition to what you suggest above it would also be usef= ul >> to >> have some sort of branch meisters. =A0The current model when every devel= oper >> decides whether and when and where to do an MFC does not seem to be the >> proper >> one. =A0Developers often forget to do an MFC. =A0Or decide against an MF= C when >> there >> is no reason to do so. =A0Or sometimes do an MFC where the stable branch >> users >> would rather prefer that it is not done. >> There needs to be someone who "owns" a branch and who want to make it >> perfect. >> Someone who could request an MFC (or even do it himself) and someone who >> could >> reject an MFC. > > > "someone who owns a branch..." - If you cut release N.0, do not > move -current to N+1. =A0Keep -current at N for a while, prohibiting > ABI changes, and any other risky changes. =A0If a developer wants to > do possibly disruptive work, they can do it from their own repo. > At this point, the branch meister(s) own the branch, and HEAD is > only moved to N+1 when they decide that the branch is stable > enough for production. =A0Maybe then, N.1 (or N.2) is rolled out. > > I think most developers track HEAD because: you have to commit and > test in HEAD before MFC'ing anyway; because of that, it easier > to track and test one branch; and ports built for HEAD may not > work on -stable. > > -- > DE > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " Interesting conversation, what you just siggested I suggested years back ;) My view is a branch cant be marked stable at .0 because it hasnt had enough= use. In addition I feel PRs need more attention and I would accept less frequent release in trade for more fixed bugs. I am about to post some PRs myself, one been a nasty lockf issue which has forced me to shift about 20 production http servers over to debian because of processes going into lockf (at low/moderate loads). Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 23:26:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFD61065675; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:26:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70028FC13; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:26:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so837992lah.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:26:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aDmq1vMZDWCFbbzieqkVEo5bwEUByY26SetQgvgEpRU=; b=Io0bEJSS30afVRnraTA+tjmtvGLum7uv/dE3shEV0u2Bo2o8MGmlLVme6Llgsk+quG ZnqlWJAErT5WzSXqA9lfpxn/Ud5M7Q7OYue4F7lhNfFFADOQCldKhD1uxPqQjkWWqH32 0bfBmjlBl4RiKPwgufyNmZUo2xLxYc/prn5O8= Received: by 10.152.148.230 with SMTP id tv6mr296851lab.12.1327101974138; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:26:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.25.196 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:25:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20120112100840.GV31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> From: Eitan Adler Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:25:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: Kostik Belousov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: jilles@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Colin Percival Subject: Re: dup3 syscall - atomic set O_CLOEXEC with dup2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:26:16 -0000 SSBmaWd1cmUgdGhpcyBpc24ndCB3YW50ZWQ/CgpPbiBUaHUsIEphbiAxMiwgMjAxMiBhdCAxMDow 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owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 23:35:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCF8106564A; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:35:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from anubis.delphij.net (anubis.delphij.net [IPv6:2001:470:1:117::25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AF28FC12; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:35:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from delta.delphij.net (c-76-102-50-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.50.245]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by anubis.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87BF6C36E; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:35:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=delphij.net; s=anubis; t=1327102537; bh=PRIUIE8W/TFoNRc/qSoWT10GSbqilThafHY5uNKuyn4=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=24V20NE5m5k8P1TLVMwo8uRbra7mZE0IRFNt5JLrdWFq4z6wBM8+w9SZnPbACgY6M p5CpTOCzl+2H9up8rOjn9RX9RSrfu9ihs02fCx20dMrEHWukvCemV9MxLUCd/B6+xG wgikBlaONa4DJ7tJH67nf+wZHsZRgCbFQW6Y+LzQ= Message-ID: <4F19FA47.7060908@delphij.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:35:35 -0800 From: Xin Li Organization: The FreeBSD Project MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eitan Adler References: <20120112100840.GV31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Kostik Belousov , jilles@freebsd.org, d@delphij.net, Colin Percival , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: dup3 syscall - atomic set O_CLOEXEC with dup2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:35:37 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Eitan, On 01/20/12 15:25, Eitan Adler wrote: > I figure this isn't wanted? Since this is modeled after Linux's dup3() system call, would you please also add a compat entry for it? By the way: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Eitan Adler > wrote: >> Okay - here is version 2 (compile and run tested) Index: >> sys/kern/syscalls.master >> =================================================================== >> >> - --- sys/kern/syscalls.master (revision 229830) >> +++ sys/kern/syscalls.master (working copy) @@ -951,5 +951,6 >> @@ off_t offset, off_t len); } 531 AUE_NULL STD { >> int posix_fadvise(int fd, off_t offset, \ off_t len, int advice); >> } +532 AUE_NULL STD { int dup3(u_int from, u_int >> to, int flags); } I think we want audit here? >> ; Please copy any additions and changes to the following >> compatability tables: ; sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master >> Index: sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master >> =================================================================== >> >> - --- sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master (revision 229830) >> +++ sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master (working copy) @@ >> -997,3 +997,4 @@ uint32_t offset1, uint32_t offset2,\ uint32_t >> len1, uint32_t len2, \ int advice); } +532 AUE_NULL STD >> { int dup3(u_int from, u_int to, int flags); } Ditto... Cheers, - -- Xin LI https://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk8Z+kYACgkQOfuToMruuMBe/ACfQ9aR5OfPZTS3q/AVNheUDliQ nIYAnjp/5qblxlOLDAvB6AferlpFQjOa =lTV+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 20 23:56:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8D1106564A; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:56:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84588FC0C; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0KNujiu091162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:56:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0KNuj3r090263; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:56:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0KNujdJ090262; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:56:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:56:45 +0200 From: Kostik Belousov To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120120235645.GP31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <20120112100840.GV31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FKBLnz/kFCbVUHCG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: jilles@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Colin Percival Subject: Re: dup3 syscall - atomic set O_CLOEXEC with dup2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:56:52 -0000 --FKBLnz/kFCbVUHCG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 06:25:42PM -0500, Eitan Adler wrote: > I figure this isn't wanted? You silently ignored part of the notes that were provided, and keep complete silence on the primary question about non-standard and fractional nature of the patch. I see no reason to retype my previous response. >=20 > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Eitan Adler wrot= e: > > Okay - here is version 2 (compile and run tested) > > > > Index: sys/kern/kern_descrip.c > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > --- sys/kern/kern_descrip.c =9A =9A (revision 229830) > > +++ sys/kern/kern_descrip.c =9A =9A (working copy) > > @@ -110,6 +110,7 @@ > > =9A/* Flags for do_dup() */ > > =9A#define DUP_FIXED =9A =9A =9A0x1 =9A =9A /* Force fixed allocation */ > > =9A#define DUP_FCNTL =9A =9A =9A0x2 =9A =9A /* fcntl()-style errors */ > > +#define DUP_CLOEXEC =9A =9A0x4 =9A =9A /* Enable O_CLOEXEC on the new = fd */ > > > > =9Astatic int do_dup(struct thread *td, int flags, int old, int new, > > =9A =9A register_t *retval); > > @@ -307,7 +308,36 @@ > > =9A =9A =9A =9Areturn (0); > > =9A} > > > > +struct dup3_args { > > + =9A =9A =9A u_int =9A from; > > + =9A =9A =9A u_int =9A to; > > + =9A =9A =9A int =9A =9A flags; > > +}; > > + > > =9A/* > > + * Duplicate a file descriptor and allow for O_CLOEXEC > > + */ > > + > > +int > > +sys_dup3(struct thread * td, struct dup3_args * uap) { > > + =9A =9A =9A int dupflags; > > + > > + =9A =9A =9A if (uap->from =3D=3D uap->to) > > + =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A return (EINVAL); > > + > > + =9A =9A =9A if (uap->flags & ~O_CLOEXEC) > > + =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A return (EINVAL); > > + > > + =9A =9A =9A dupflags =3D DUP_FIXED; > > + =9A =9A =9A if (uap->flags & O_CLOEXEC) > > + =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A dupflags |=3D DUP_CLOEXEC; > > + > > + =9A =9A =9A return (do_dup(td, dupflags, (int)uap->from, (int)uap->to, > > + =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A td->td_retval)); > > + =9A =9A =9A return (0); > > +} > > + > > +/* > > =9A* Duplicate a file descriptor to a particular value. > > =9A* > > =9A* Note: keep in mind that a potential race condition exists when clo= sing > > @@ -912,6 +942,9 @@ > > =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9Afdp->fd_lastfile =3D new; > > =9A =9A =9A =9A*retval =3D new; > > > > + =9A =9A =9A if (flags & DUP_CLOEXEC) > > + =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A fdp->fd_ofileflags[new] |=3D UF_EXCLOSE; > > + > > =9A =9A =9A =9A/* > > =9A =9A =9A =9A * If we dup'd over a valid file, we now own the referen= ce to it > > =9A =9A =9A =9A * and must dispose of it using closef() semantics (as i= f a > > Index: sys/kern/syscalls.master > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > --- sys/kern/syscalls.master =9A =9A(revision 229830) > > +++ sys/kern/syscalls.master =9A =9A(working copy) > > @@ -951,5 +951,6 @@ > > =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A= off_t offset, off_t len); } > > =9A531 =9A =9AAUE_NULL =9A =9A =9A =9ASTD =9A =9A { int posix_fadvise(i= nt fd, off_t offset, \ > > =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A= off_t len, int advice); } > > +532 =9A =9AAUE_NULL =9A =9A =9A =9ASTD =9A =9A { int dup3(u_int from, = u_int to, int flags); } > > =9A; Please copy any additions and changes to the following compatabili= ty tables: > > =9A; sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master > > Index: sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > --- sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master =9A =9A =9A =9A(revision 22983= 0) > > +++ sys/compat/freebsd32/syscalls.master =9A =9A =9A =9A(working copy) > > @@ -997,3 +997,4 @@ > > =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A= uint32_t offset1, uint32_t offset2,\ > > =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A= uint32_t len1, uint32_t len2, \ > > =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A =9A= int advice); } > > +532 =9A =9AAUE_NULL =9A =9A =9A =9ASTD =9A =9A { int dup3(u_int from, = u_int to, int flags); } > > > > Index: lib/libc/sys/Symbol.map > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > --- lib/libc/sys/Symbol.map =9A =9A (revision 229830) > > +++ lib/libc/sys/Symbol.map =9A =9A (working copy) > > @@ -383,6 +383,7 @@ > > > > =9AFBSD_1.3 { > > =9A =9A =9A =9Aposix_fadvise; > > + =9A =9A =9A dup3; > > =9A}; > > > > =9AFBSDprivate_1.0 { > > > > > > -- > > Eitan Adler >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Eitan Adler --FKBLnz/kFCbVUHCG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk8Z/zwACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4jALwCg63vZXRWsMzLqKymjhBDJLYCo eD8AoOM1qj6/uxkb+reKeQ9aFUXSPr01 =RQMx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FKBLnz/kFCbVUHCG-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 21 00:10:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45119106566C; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:10:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E99F8FC18; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:10:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so855200lah.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:10:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=4R4HVMNMEKhr8tEijcLsBoDo0mSXJwfOd6j4ieknL1M=; b=Kg1Fy4K6wlm2QA6ZU5/lCKJPUGVeMq/lTvtIzpng/Ax/MbOxjSsKItwIzThk5nYc71 Fa4kRA5HVd7l02yO2/R3JJ9I2cuMayt87mVEUziBCEd+/aokjM5kV/B+kUKutiK/Ocpr 8cWV2MEC9hJXzqhwVjw+rNmrtu871P532HPrU= Received: by 10.112.82.226 with SMTP id l2mr8069225lby.102.1327104614127; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:10:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.25.196 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:09:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20120120235645.GP31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <20120112100840.GV31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <20120120235645.GP31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> From: Eitan Adler Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:09:43 -0500 Message-ID: To: Kostik Belousov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: jilles@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Colin Percival Subject: Re: dup3 syscall - atomic set O_CLOEXEC with dup2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:10:16 -0000 2012/1/20 Kostik Belousov : > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 06:25:42PM -0500, Eitan Adler wrote: >> I figure this isn't wanted? > You silently ignored part of the notes that were provided, I fixed the style violations you pointed out and removed _SYS_SYSPROTO_H_ and friends. Which else was there? If I missed something I'm sorry. > and keep > complete silence on the primary question about non-standard I thought I answered that already but I'll try again: I believe the functionality is useful to developers even if it is non-standard. In addition if it is standardized at some point in the future it is unlikely to have different semantics than the ones implemented. > and fractional nature of the patch. How so? I am not including the generated parts in the patch. Should I? > I see no reason to retype my previous response. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 21 01:26:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13441065673 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:26:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danger@FreeBSD.org) Received: from services.syscare.sk (services.syscare.sk [188.40.39.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5058FC16 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:26:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from services.syscare.sk (services [188.40.39.36]) by services.syscare.sk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F963A6F0F for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:07:23 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rulez.sk Received: from services.syscare.sk ([188.40.39.36]) by services.syscare.sk (services.rulez.sk [188.40.39.36]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SnsjtdJvdFD8 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:07:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [172.17.2.102] (59576.ba.3pp.slovanet.sk [84.16.39.226]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: danger@rulez.sk) by services.syscare.sk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07561A6EFB for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:07:20 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4F1A0FD7.2020604@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:07:35 +0100 From: Daniel Gerzo Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; en-US; rv:1.9.2.25pre) Gecko/20111115 Lanikai/3.1.17pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <4F153AE3.9010602@my.gd> <20120120133826.GB16676@FreeBSD.org> <4F196F9B.3050506@my.gd> <20120120135936.GC16676@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:26:52 -0000 On 20.1.2012 18:58, Freddie Cash wrote: >> It cannot be merged into RELEASE! RELEASE is a point on a branch, >> as soon as RELEASE had been released, you can't push anything into >> it, unless you have a time machine. > > I think he's asking "what's the criteria to push a patch to > RELENG_8_2, the security/fixes branch of -RELEASE?" IOW, how does one > increase the patch level (8.2-RELEASE-p5 -> 8.2-RELEASE-p6, etc) of a > release? > > I believe, and RE/security team can correct me on this, that the > criteria is along the lines of "security issues and major bug fixes > only". Perhaps that policy should be looked at and loosened slightly > to also include "driver updates"? Or something along those lines? > Perhaps look at releasing point releases (8.2.1) like DoubB suggested? I have already said it in this thread - I believe we should consider issuing much more errata notices (i.e. -pX); with that I mean we should consider more bugs as "major bugs". I don't really see a reason why not. And we should also provide some mechanism to allow for cherry-picking individual errata notices to be applied on the given release (e.g. p1, p2, p5, but not p3, p4). I don't think it makes sense to issue errata notices for driver updates as in support for new devices because we don't ship installation media with these patches applied. In those cases we would need to make those "point" releases. On the other hand, simply releasing minor releases more often would solve that problem too. -- S pozdravom / Best regards Daniel Gerzo, FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 21 08:26:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F56106564A; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:26:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9B68FC13; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:26:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q0L8Q5f7032222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:26:05 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q0L8Q5eU003788; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:26:05 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q0L8Q4KV003787; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:26:04 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:26:04 +0200 From: Kostik Belousov To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120121082604.GT31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <20120112100840.GV31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <20120120235645.GP31224@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5kuBRoVe25Cd17OM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: jilles@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Colin Percival Subject: Re: dup3 syscall - atomic set O_CLOEXEC with dup2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:26:10 -0000 --5kuBRoVe25Cd17OM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 07:09:43PM -0500, Eitan Adler wrote: > 2012/1/20 Kostik Belousov : > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 06:25:42PM -0500, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> I figure this isn't wanted? > > You silently ignored part of the notes that were provided, >=20 > I fixed the style violations you pointed out and removed > _SYS_SYSPROTO_H_ and friends. Which else was there? If I missed > something I'm sorry. Manual definition of the struct dup3_args is not needed at all. I very much doubt that patch can compile since there is now duplicate definition of the structure. There is still stray return (0);. Another reason for the patch to not compile is compat32 syscalls.master changes. The suggestion of 'it is better to test the presence of O_CLOEXEC with & instead of comparing with =3D=3D, to allow for ease introduction of future dup3 flags, if any.' is silently ignored. Probably new: style requires putting opening '{' for the function body at new line. There shall be no space between '*' and arg name. New: symbols in the version map shall be ordered alphabetically. >=20 > > and keep > > complete silence on the primary question about non-standard >=20 > I thought I answered that already but I'll try again: I believe the > functionality is useful to developers even if it is non-standard. In > addition if it is standardized at some point in the future it is > unlikely to have different semantics than the ones implemented. It very well may have different details that would force us to draw two versions forever. >=20 > > and fractional nature of the patch. >=20 > How so? I am not including the generated parts in the patch. Should I? The implementation is partial because dup3() is only part of the Linux and glibc efforts to allow app authors to handle the race between obtaining the file descriptor and setting cloexec flag. I already pointed you to SOCK_CLOEXEC for example. This is ignored as well. dup3() alone is almost useless. >=20 > > I see no reason to retype my previous response. >=20 > --=20 > Eitan Adler --5kuBRoVe25Cd17OM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk8adpwACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4g5lgCdFU821OXnlHodGC4Vfx0OtRaq IrsAoKup5DhgsBUaznSzYTl7n2RMpF6o =/Mvv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5kuBRoVe25Cd17OM--