From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 30 10:24:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5B01065670 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:24:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jilles@stack.nl) Received: from mx1.stack.nl (relay04.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5158FC1A for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:24:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from snail.stack.nl (snail.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::131]) by mx1.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C601DD4FB for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by snail.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1677) id 72BB52847B; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 12:24:08 +0200 From: Jilles Tjoelker To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120730102408.GA19983@stack.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: system() using vfork() or posix_spawn() X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:24:10 -0000 People sometimes use system() from large address spaces where it would improve performance greatly to use vfork() instead of fork(). A simple approach is to change fork() to vfork(), although I have not tried this. It seems safe enough to use sigaction and sigprocmask system calls in the vforked process. Alternatively, we can have posix_spawn() do the vfork() with signal changes. This avoids possible whining from compilers and static analyzers about using vfork() in system.c. However, I do not like the tricky code for signals and that it adds lines of code. This is lightly tested. Index: lib/libc/stdlib/system.c =================================================================== --- lib/libc/stdlib/system.c (revision 238371) +++ lib/libc/stdlib/system.c (working copy) @@ -42,16 +42,21 @@ #include #include #include +#include #include "un-namespace.h" #include "libc_private.h" +extern char **environ; + int __system(const char *command) { pid_t pid, savedpid; - int pstat; + int error, pstat; struct sigaction ign, intact, quitact; - sigset_t newsigblock, oldsigblock; + sigset_t newsigblock, oldsigblock, defmask; + const char *argv[4]; + posix_spawnattr_t attr; if (!command) /* just checking... */ return(1); @@ -65,28 +70,36 @@ ign.sa_flags = 0; (void)_sigaction(SIGINT, &ign, &intact); (void)_sigaction(SIGQUIT, &ign, &quitact); + (void)sigemptyset(&defmask); + if ((intact.sa_flags & SA_SIGINFO) != 0 || + intact.sa_handler != SIG_IGN) + (void)sigaddset(&defmask, SIGINT); + if ((quitact.sa_flags & SA_SIGINFO) != 0 || + quitact.sa_handler != SIG_IGN) + (void)sigaddset(&defmask, SIGQUIT); (void)sigemptyset(&newsigblock); (void)sigaddset(&newsigblock, SIGCHLD); (void)_sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &newsigblock, &oldsigblock); - switch(pid = fork()) { - case -1: /* error */ - break; - case 0: /* child */ - /* - * Restore original signal dispositions and exec the command. - */ - (void)_sigaction(SIGINT, &intact, NULL); - (void)_sigaction(SIGQUIT, &quitact, NULL); - (void)_sigprocmask(SIG_SETMASK, &oldsigblock, NULL); - execl(_PATH_BSHELL, "sh", "-c", command, (char *)NULL); - _exit(127); - default: /* parent */ + argv[0] = "sh"; + argv[1] = "-c"; + argv[2] = command; + argv[3] = NULL; + if ((error = posix_spawnattr_init(&attr)) != 0 || + (error = posix_spawnattr_setsigmask(&attr, &oldsigblock)) != 0 || + (error = posix_spawnattr_setsigdefault(&attr, &defmask)) != 0 || + (error = posix_spawnattr_setflags(&attr, + POSIX_SPAWN_SETSIGDEF | POSIX_SPAWN_SETSIGMASK)) != 0 || + (error = posix_spawn(&pid, _PATH_BSHELL, NULL, &attr, + __DECONST(char **, argv), environ)) != 0) { + pid = -1; + errno = error; + } else { savedpid = pid; do { pid = _wait4(savedpid, &pstat, 0, (struct rusage *)0); } while (pid == -1 && errno == EINTR); - break; } + posix_spawnattr_destroy(&attr); (void)_sigaction(SIGINT, &intact, NULL); (void)_sigaction(SIGQUIT, &quitact, NULL); (void)_sigprocmask(SIG_SETMASK, &oldsigblock, NULL); -- Jilles Tjoelker From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 30 10:53:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662561065673 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:53:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79108FC08 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q6UArGxT050148; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:16 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6UAr3Yp057797; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q6UAr3K4057796; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:53:03 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Jilles Tjoelker Message-ID: <20120730105303.GU2676@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <20120730102408.GA19983@stack.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kAxYX6Dg+VZz1yCk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120730102408.GA19983@stack.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: system() using vfork() or posix_spawn() X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:53:08 -0000 --kAxYX6Dg+VZz1yCk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 12:24:08PM +0200, Jilles Tjoelker wrote: > People sometimes use system() from large address spaces where it would > improve performance greatly to use vfork() instead of fork(). >=20 > A simple approach is to change fork() to vfork(), although I have not > tried this. It seems safe enough to use sigaction and sigprocmask system > calls in the vforked process. >=20 > Alternatively, we can have posix_spawn() do the vfork() with signal > changes. This avoids possible whining from compilers and static > analyzers about using vfork() in system.c. However, I do not like the > tricky code for signals and that it adds lines of code. >=20 > This is lightly tested. It is interesting to note that for some time our vfork(2) no longer stops the whole forked process (parent), only the forking thread is waiting for the child exit or exec. I am not sure is this point important for system(3), but determined code can notice the difference from the fork->vfork switch. --kAxYX6Dg+VZz1yCk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlAWZ48ACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4jwrgCeM71zpb+alvqQpd3XPXBmj5My 9VwAn3LCDmMqkKLu41tAT01/aWRxQCRX =WDAV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kAxYX6Dg+VZz1yCk-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 30 21:14:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02374106564A; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:14:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B228FC1A; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E555B944; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:14:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:06:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:14:59 -0000 On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:03:14 am Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > >> [..] > >> Honestly, though, I think you'll be more pissed when you find out that the N:1 interface that you want is being done in the wrong domain. But I've been wrong before and look forward to seeing your replacement. > >> > > I will just pass function pointers for now, if things should be done > > dirty, let's be explicit about it. > > > > Now, the hinted device attachment did work quite smoothly, however, I > > would have a few suggestion: > > 1) add a call to bus_enumerate_hinted_children() before the call > > DEVICE_IDENTIFY() call in bus_generic_driver_added() > > > > this is required to be able to support dynamic loading and attachment > > of hinted children. I'm not sure this is a feature we want to support (to date hinted children have only been created at boot time). > > 2) have a generic bus_hinted_child method which would just add a new > > child to the bus. Possibly, but hinted children are intentionally opt-in and not enabled by default. > > 3) have bus_enumerate_hinted_children() and bus_generic_attach() > > always ran on device attachment. > > > > There is current +100 explicit call to bus_generic_attach() in the > > sys/dev/ tree. This should be done always and implicitly. No. One of the problems is that different busses want to do it at different times. It is usually done last, but some buses may want to do additional work after the bus_generic_attach(). > > 4) have bus_generic_detach() always ran prior to device detachment Similar. > > 5) have the bus_generic_* method be the default of their respective method No. However, what would be a good idea (and one thing I've had on my list), is to create a "bus_generic" driver that uses the bus_generic_* methods for all it's methods and let bus drivers inherit from that to get the generic methods if they are appropriate. If you do this, I would also add a second "bus_generic_rl" that inherits from "bus_generic" but uses the generic resource list methods for resources. > > 6) have device_delete_child() called upon device detachment. No. This is for a bus to decide. This would be horrifically wrong for things like kldunloading a PCI device driver. Just because you unload a driver (so that it detaches from devices) does not mean those physical devices have gone away. > > As a rule of thumb, when a kld is unloaded there should not be any > > remains of anything built previously. Without device_delete_child() or > > proper singleton implementation, multiple load/unload sequence of bus > > will attempt to attach multiple version of a child, even if the single > > child was added prior to the bus_generic_attach() call. Hinted devices should perhaps be removed, yes. However, what other drivers often do is use a singleton approach instead (despite your claim that they don't). For example: static void ipmi_isa_identify(driver_t *driver, device_t parent) { struct ipmi_get_info info; uint32_t devid; if (ipmi_smbios_identify(&info) && info.iface_type != SSIF_MODE && device_find_child(parent, "ipmi", -1) == NULL) { ... BUS_ADD_CHILD(parent, 0, "ipmi", -1); } } -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 30 22:40:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEEA1065670 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:40:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.32]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAF38FC1D for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:40:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gcT01j0010QkzPwA3mgiGV; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:40:42 +0000 Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org ([24.8.232.202]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gmgh1j00G4NgCEG8Nmgi1Y; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:40:42 +0000 Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q6UMed69034570; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:40:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:40:39 -0600 Message-ID: <1343688039.1101.112.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:40:43 -0000 On Mon, 2012-07-30 at 17:06 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:03:14 am Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > >> [..] > > >> Honestly, though, I think you'll be more pissed when you find out that > the N:1 interface that you want is being done in the wrong domain. But I've > been wrong before and look forward to seeing your replacement. > > >> > > > I will just pass function pointers for now, if things should be done > > > dirty, let's be explicit about it. > > > > > > Now, the hinted device attachment did work quite smoothly, however, I > > > would have a few suggestion: > > > 1) add a call to bus_enumerate_hinted_children() before the call > > > DEVICE_IDENTIFY() call in bus_generic_driver_added() > > > > > > this is required to be able to support dynamic loading and attachment > > > of hinted children. > > I'm not sure this is a feature we want to support (to date hinted children > have only been created at boot time). It seems to me that the bus should be in control of calling bus_enumerate_hinted_children() at whatever time works best for it. Also, shouldn't it only ever be called once? The comment block for BUS_HINTED_CHILD in bus_if.h says "This method is only called in response to the parent bus asking for hinted devices to be enumerated." I think one of the implications of that is that any given bus may not call bus_enumerate_hinted_children() because it may not be able to do anything for hinted children. Adding a "hint.somedev.0.at=somebus" and then forcing the bus to enumerate hinted children amounts to forcing the bus to adopt a child it may not be able to provide resources for, which sounds like a panic or crash waiting to happen (or at best, no crash but nothing useful happens either). -- Ian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 02:30:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1EF106564A; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 02:30:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FADE8FC1D; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 02:30:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so4656732lbo.13 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 19:30:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=/w03AC2jsU/TVLFYBXLFpLq7Zn9yq1Gd6j7wp3hqFv0=; b=PXdKsxYRjXvb66GtUG3zmvhVOTpD0wsTbKFPAkIQTPRe508PgvROzuWhDqp7vI1qzp Jht5xFu24jksSZX19Cc7kwigofOYcD3mPSkLAd00qyW3U/PWHTn9v8xJ8WFfaRX9Un0Y RqalxVypJEEQ/ZWoh9OBJOjrqmINfaXvV/bgdme7iaNzlevp84O28+zIYkMo+XRMUdhf yHrAM45fXo4i1Ifnhp77nl+U8TTiS7j5BFRvL6SVL0t6JfsvFYItVej5s2ujmP/ik3FC SdBi4CKcXLsP6ryUnXUXnnhg1hUzSGouHgowSijxdzpWectuvGe2ODWPVikNzG7GJPMn 7APA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.103.109 with SMTP id fv13mr13341493lab.33.1343701818802; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 19:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.13.68 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 19:30:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:30:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: John Baldwin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 02:30:21 -0000 Hi, On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:06 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:03:14 am Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> [..] >> >> Honestly, though, I think you'll be more pissed when you find out that > the N:1 interface that you want is being done in the wrong domain. But I've > been wrong before and look forward to seeing your replacement. >> >> >> > I will just pass function pointers for now, if things should be done >> > dirty, let's be explicit about it. >> > >> > Now, the hinted device attachment did work quite smoothly, however, I >> > would have a few suggestion: >> > 1) add a call to bus_enumerate_hinted_children() before the call >> > DEVICE_IDENTIFY() call in bus_generic_driver_added() >> > >> > this is required to be able to support dynamic loading and attachment >> > of hinted children. > > I'm not sure this is a feature we want to support (to date hinted children > have only been created at boot time). > >> > 2) have a generic bus_hinted_child method which would just add a new >> > child to the bus. > > Possibly, but hinted children are intentionally opt-in and not enabled > by default. > >> > 3) have bus_enumerate_hinted_children() and bus_generic_attach() >> > always ran on device attachment. >> > >> > There is current +100 explicit call to bus_generic_attach() in the >> > sys/dev/ tree. This should be done always and implicitly. > > No. One of the problems is that different busses want to do it at > different times. It is usually done last, but some buses may want to > do additional work after the bus_generic_attach(). > >> > 4) have bus_generic_detach() always ran prior to device detachment > > Similar. > >> > 5) have the bus_generic_* method be the default of their respective > method > > No. However, what would be a good idea (and one thing I've had on my > list), is to create a "bus_generic" driver that uses the bus_generic_* > methods for all it's methods and let bus drivers inherit from that to > get the generic methods if they are appropriate. If you do this, I > would also add a second "bus_generic_rl" that inherits from "bus_generic" > but uses the generic resource list methods for resources. > >> > 6) have device_delete_child() called upon device detachment. > > No. This is for a bus to decide. This would be horrifically wrong > for things like kldunloading a PCI device driver. Just because you > unload a driver (so that it detaches from devices) does not mean those > physical devices have gone away. > >> > As a rule of thumb, when a kld is unloaded there should not be any >> > remains of anything built previously. Without device_delete_child() or >> > proper singleton implementation, multiple load/unload sequence of bus >> > will attempt to attach multiple version of a child, even if the single >> > child was added prior to the bus_generic_attach() call. > > Hinted devices should perhaps be removed, yes. However, what other drivers > often do is use a singleton approach instead (despite your claim that they > don't). > FreeBSD's newbus device framework already sucks (as in "too static"/"inflexible"), making it sucks even more (as in "more static"/"more inflexible") might not be the wisest approach... This is no longer the 90'. The good old enumerating-buses, tree-based, model is to be relegated to a corner-case of the computer world with profusion of embedded, non-enumerating, highly integrated, highly interconnected, highly custom SoCs. I am yet to see a robust approach to the various problem I submitted. > For example: > static void > ipmi_isa_identify(driver_t *driver, device_t parent) > { > struct ipmi_get_info info; > uint32_t devid; > > if (ipmi_smbios_identify(&info) && info.iface_type != SSIF_MODE && > device_find_child(parent, "ipmi", -1) == NULL) { > ... > BUS_ADD_CHILD(parent, 0, "ipmi", -1); > } > } > duplicated code doing the exact same abstract, hardcoded, function, all over the tree, absolutely unacceptable, if not a blatant proof of failure of what should be made generic, if not fully dynamic. - Arnaud From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 03:51:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AB7106566C for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:51:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f54.google.com (mail-yw0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C0D8FC0C for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:51:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yhfs35 with SMTP id s35so6527187yhf.13 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=sFu9+q3iJ0KvQwRqVWhzdEOuqktO2lEKgbGu99hxL3k=; b=EMDJl9RXGv6r15QWsXjbaQ4QtaAN7lNmvNCQ8dE6i9PWBcNBmpo5es+dLpyr6R0eMM jFBT8PjadVXL9geo9hrZKmFjkRzH6KYLDf1fAtKBcWyuQNbJOoVqdpHWvb27nPNjr6gF alFkbvqgA0KUJ1NXJUX3OCbWIw/iWD1JGz0sym1QRwQ+X/zr6ktarJ/KJuonRg6i/IyK 3OA8JiNrrYlrnc6Y6r4dF69ppbkdlwN+aQCMtGjV3wAJ88qPByBboM/ONPfqFzp7zpQL sH18oNAb0rqbllH/AorO57RlEYpM68VoR6uuYxFThEc39hwvS3R5/8h0SvcwmbDzCz/D rlVA== Received: by 10.50.10.234 with SMTP id l10mr188698igb.4.1343706668439; Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 63.imp.bsdimp.com (50-78-194-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.78.194.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dk7sm17497019igb.10.2012.07.30.20.51.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:51:05 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> To: Arnaud Lacombe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmJNf8w/VnepnEURjuS4Pv3LHu9JinPgywvqn/TkNWPa8nsLX4V5XyKbvoz1KIc3401wclD Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:51:09 -0000 On Jul 30, 2012, at 8:30 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:06 PM, John Baldwin wrote: >> On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:03:14 am Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Arnaud Lacombe = wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Warner Losh = wrote: >>>>> [..] >>>>> Honestly, though, I think you'll be more pissed when you find out = that >> the N:1 interface that you want is being done in the wrong domain. = But I've >> been wrong before and look forward to seeing your replacement. >>>>>=20 >>>> I will just pass function pointers for now, if things should be = done >>>> dirty, let's be explicit about it. >>>>=20 >>>> Now, the hinted device attachment did work quite smoothly, however, = I >>>> would have a few suggestion: >>>> 1) add a call to bus_enumerate_hinted_children() before the call >>>> DEVICE_IDENTIFY() call in bus_generic_driver_added() >>>>=20 >>>> this is required to be able to support dynamic loading and = attachment >>>> of hinted children. >>=20 >> I'm not sure this is a feature we want to support (to date hinted = children >> have only been created at boot time). Yes. FDT should replace hinted things as much as possible. However, = FDT is an in for a penny, in for a pound technology like acpi: you more = or less have to use it for everything. >>>> 2) have a generic bus_hinted_child method which would just add a = new >>>> child to the bus. >>=20 >> Possibly, but hinted children are intentionally opt-in and not = enabled >> by default. Yes. I made it that way on purpose because most buses are enumerated, = and things are moving that way even in the embedded world, or at least = seemed that way when I was doing it. Either the buses are enumerated, = like PCI or some of the silicon frameworks, or you used FDT, which is = also fully enumerated. >>>> 3) have bus_enumerate_hinted_children() and bus_generic_attach() >>>> always ran on device attachment. >>>>=20 >>>> There is current +100 explicit call to bus_generic_attach() in the >>>> sys/dev/ tree. This should be done always and implicitly. >>=20 >> No. One of the problems is that different busses want to do it at >> different times. It is usually done last, but some buses may want to >> do additional work after the bus_generic_attach(). Yes. This was specifically due to how different buses enumerate. >>>> 4) have bus_generic_detach() always ran prior to device detachment >>=20 >> Similar. >>=20 >>>> 5) have the bus_generic_* method be the default of their respective >> method >>=20 >> No. However, what would be a good idea (and one thing I've had on my >> list), is to create a "bus_generic" driver that uses the = bus_generic_* >> methods for all it's methods and let bus drivers inherit from that to >> get the generic methods if they are appropriate. If you do this, I >> would also add a second "bus_generic_rl" that inherits from = "bus_generic" >> but uses the generic resource list methods for resources. It has been a mistake to not more aggressively investigate this line of = coding. >>>> 6) have device_delete_child() called upon device detachment. >>=20 >> No. This is for a bus to decide. This would be horrifically wrong >> for things like kldunloading a PCI device driver. Just because you >> unload a driver (so that it detaches from devices) does not mean = those >> physical devices have gone away. It is almost always horrifically wrong. >>>> As a rule of thumb, when a kld is unloaded there should not be any >>>> remains of anything built previously. Without device_delete_child() = or >>>> proper singleton implementation, multiple load/unload sequence of = bus >>>> will attempt to attach multiple version of a child, even if the = single >>>> child was added prior to the bus_generic_attach() call. >>=20 >> Hinted devices should perhaps be removed, yes. However, what other = drivers >> often do is use a singleton approach instead (despite your claim that = they >> don't). >>=20 > FreeBSD's newbus device framework already sucks (as in "too > static"/"inflexible"), making it sucks even more (as in "more > static"/"more inflexible") might not be the wisest approach... This is > no longer the 90'. The good old enumerating-buses, tree-based, model > is to be relegated to a corner-case of the computer world with > profusion of embedded, non-enumerating, highly integrated, highly > interconnected, highly custom SoCs. FDT handles the enumeration problem. FreeBSD's lack of a decent gpio, = pinctl, pinmux and other infrastructure are much bigger issues. At = least those are the real issues that I'm running into working on the = Atmel SoCs and bringing FDT to them. Hinted buses really have no place = in an FDT world. None. They are an ugly hack that were intended to be = a stop-gap until something better than hints came along. If you are = trying to use them in an FDT world, you are likely doing something = horribly wrong. > I am yet to see a robust approach to the various problem I submitted. That's because you're asking us to pound screws with a hammer. For the = things you've complained about, we really need to have better GPIO = infrastructure, a better pin control and pin mux infrastructure, etc. = We lack that right now, which is why you're trying to shoe-horn the FDT = connections into a newbus world and complaining that everything sucks = because it is a poor fit. I'd suggest that different mechanisms are = necessary. >> For example: >> static void >> ipmi_isa_identify(driver_t *driver, device_t parent) >> { >> struct ipmi_get_info info; >> uint32_t devid; >>=20 >> if (ipmi_smbios_identify(&info) && info.iface_type !=3D = SSIF_MODE && >> device_find_child(parent, "ipmi", -1) =3D=3D NULL) { >> ... >> BUS_ADD_CHILD(parent, 0, "ipmi", -1); >> } >> } >>=20 > duplicated code doing the exact same abstract, hardcoded, function, > all over the tree, absolutely unacceptable, if not a blatant proof of > failure of what should be made generic, if not fully dynamic. Perhaps, but design patterns can be just as useful for extremely short = code snippets. Warner= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 14:56:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0B51065673 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:56:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608F88FC18 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:56:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6563B97B; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:48:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201207311048.16392.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: Xin Li , Bill Crisp Subject: Re: CVE-2012-0217 Intel's sysret Kernel Privilege Escalation and FreeBSD 6.2/6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:56:53 -0000 On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:59:21 pm James wrote: > On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Bill Crisp wrote: > > > > Unfortunately I tried to put the code from the patch in place but there > > seems to be some missing functions in the header file and too many > > arguments to a function and some other errors below: > > Hi Bill. Yes, the patch for >= FreeBSD 7 won't apply directly to > 6. ksi and the refined SIGBUS traps don't exist yet. Here's how I > fixed it at work. Using this on multiple releng_6* branches. > > HTH! This looks correct. A cosmetic nit would be to move the new changes up above the "Traced system call" comment. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 14:56:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033FA1065670 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:56:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCBC8FC19 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:56:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A606B995; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:56:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:53:13 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: <3A0E5AB0-812D-433B-B2E8-DBD7B9124E85@longcount.org> In-Reply-To: <3A0E5AB0-812D-433B-B2E8-DBD7B9124E85@longcount.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201207311053.13052.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Cc: Mark Saad Subject: Re: Using mcelog X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:56:54 -0000 On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:52:40 am Mark Saad wrote: > All > I wanted to see how users of mcelog were implementing it on FreeBSD . My Linux servers tend to run it via cron hourly and dump the results to syslog or a local log file . For now I am going to make a similar setup . Does using it as a daemon provide anything running it via cron can't ? Are there any options to stay away from , Linux only options etc ? Also does anyone know what options there are for FreeBSD on sparc ? I don't think I ported daemon mode for it. You will have to run it from cron for now. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 15:20:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F45106566B; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AFC8FC0C; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:20:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgbds11 with SMTP id ds11so5732307wgb.31 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:20:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=GmyOKy/keGLKXs3liywoMnftHvIK0XKKEwlU55ylaS8=; b=E39Q/7yJIfIfh7haev6pMzE5nbnn/2Kko2bp6t1vqF9OMuh78qz2kcMt8ysGiDyNK0 e+B4ycVoBr7n47s0gT1W1f4hQI2r748QQKhu7+mCNjbLzqB9aOUSjORh1ESklekDIwy0 ueoteZ7+wsrbZyzWyouhkSWkeLPHyWqcvic3fbO68MKNBuh/C0xp/3h3gRGPTp2eXp0V 6qDiaplyCZK8IVv/59rBq4OrU6VSY53LXQ99fisKGTLRfDGS5TKT2CTXwpFqmHoz6dJf +iis64y2zddBxQV6sMYAx4wHeItC19aOdaatgjrXHu07ZAXWxyvdsVioW2ZZTN8XsCJ1 zxOA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.106.137 with SMTP id gu9mr7709594wib.20.1343748057828; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:20:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 11:20:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: Warner Losh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:20:59 -0000 Hi, On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > [...] We lack that right now, which is why you're trying to shoe-horn the FDT connections into a newbus world and complaining that everything sucks because it is a poor fit. I'd suggest that different mechanisms are necessary. > I'm not trying anything, or at least no longer. I do not see the point working on that when I can not get trivial patches in, especially those fixing poorly maintained drivers, whose issues _do_ affect people. - Arnaud From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 16:27:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262531065674 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:27:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F2B8FC16 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:27:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so13958813obb.13 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 09:27:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=j/znrdXuemTc7vA9FitYbL8AyPYNYWD9eLWCBsHVrg8=; b=U10dMgdzbtaCBGlXd4Bfcr3Ak5J48KI0B/kNXdX3sXRQ/IA5Jl7rbY3HAvQhmejCS5 JuHybyqqIB72jyqtlQwRQ8Ub5KcnmQWPvSeWZFuibv9V07VLMfO4UWuJUfgipNeRVrfI bCA3kwb7TVjXTNpL4K3Pj0rwu38HPanIRvgPG3NTyDcuCDz5QQKHvvxP4Mb6Lk4auhmC oRK41ClWnrqDCPiCdKPyf8HmwLGJRvA2iRGMdWVFTUJsPb7htmhEAL0CMx7Aw2d9mdbH T7596BVgbAPEALZ3ucbahfrsM2AZSEhK7HUW7c3GKfG1CYmK6pSvktMO84icprtEZ+sC afhA== Received: by 10.182.8.6 with SMTP id n6mr24433295oba.39.1343752051974; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 09:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.101.53] ([209.117.142.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n7sm296700oec.2.2012.07.31.09.27.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 31 Jul 2012 09:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:27:28 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> To: Arnaud Lacombe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmdngwsIrhIwtZBtgAsyEArDENt9NRSV0lf5f/+8FNsYaoLQb3kex0iX8nwsj1JlhgTlRWf Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:27:33 -0000 On Jul 31, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> [...] We lack that right now, which is why you're trying to shoe-horn = the FDT connections into a newbus world and complaining that everything = sucks because it is a poor fit. I'd suggest that different mechanisms = are necessary. >>=20 > I'm not trying anything, or at least no longer. I do not see the point > working on that when I can not get trivial patches in, especially > those fixing poorly maintained drivers, whose issues _do_ affect > people. Hey Arnaud, sorry to be a little harsh, but maybe if you shouted less = and cooperated more, people would be more willing to work with you. Having said that, I'd be happy to help fix this problem. I've not seen = the patches you're talking about, I'd be happy to take a look and try to = get them in, as appropriate. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 17:00:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC771065670 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:00:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: from smtprelay06.ispgateway.de (smtprelay06.ispgateway.de [80.67.31.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1482A8FC16 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:00:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [78.35.173.94] (helo=fabiankeil.de) by smtprelay06.ispgateway.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1SwFcO-0000JR-8N; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 18:48:24 +0200 Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 18:48:13 +0200 From: Fabian Keil To: Sean Bruno Message-ID: <20120731184813.04bd8dc2@fabiankeil.de> In-Reply-To: <1343429097.5002.14.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> References: <1341863341.6064.11.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> <4FFB4770.7050209@FreeBSD.org> <20120710154128.192eb8d6@fabiankeil.de> <1341939155.2573.8.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> <20120710205702.5e57168b@fabiankeil.de> <4FFC8479.9080608@FreeBSD.org> <20120711122935.1382e76d@fabiankeil.de> <20120712201741.34573af4@fabiankeil.de> <4FFF2171.1030800@FreeBSD.org> <20120712213615.39640d1f@fabiankeil.de> <4FFF27F0.4000106@FreeBSD.org> <742407DF-8026-4976-A1F9-A170A62EF87A@averesystems.com> <1343429097.5002.14.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/IauXZrZjSDtAROh/qOoS3Zp"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Df-Sender: Nzc1MDY3 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dtraceall.ko with old nfsclient X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:00:36 -0000 --Sig_/IauXZrZjSDtAROh/qOoS3Zp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sean Bruno wrote: > On Thu, 2012-07-12 at 12:47 -0700, Andrew Boyer wrote: > > On Jul 12, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > >=20 > > > on 12/07/2012 22:36 Fabian Keil said the following: > > >> Andriy Gapon wrote: > > >>=20 > > >>> on 12/07/2012 21:17 Fabian Keil said the following: > > >>>> Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > >>>>=20 > > >>>>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Fabian Keil wrote: > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>> I'm using the following modification of Sean's patch: > > >>>>=20 > > >>>> This way it seems to work as expected: > > >>>>=20 > > >>>> diff --git a/sys/modules/dtrace/dtraceall/Makefile=20 > > >>>> b/sys/modules/dtrace/dtraceall/Makefile index 456efd1..628583b 100= 644 > > >>>> --- a/sys/modules/dtrace/dtraceall/Makefile +++=20 > > >>>> b/sys/modules/dtrace/dtraceall/Makefile @@ -1,7 +1,7 @@ # $FreeBSD= :=20 > > >>>> src/sys/modules/dtrace/dtraceall/Makefile,v 1.3 2011/04/09 09:07:3= 1 uqs > > >>>> Exp $ > > >>>>=20 > > >>>> KMOD=3D dtraceall -SRCS=3D dtraceall.c opt_compa= t.h > > >>>> +SRCS=3D dtraceall.c opt_compat.h opt_nfs.h > > >>>>=20 > > >>>> CFLAGS+=3D -I${.CURDIR}/../../.. > > >>>>=20 > > >>>=20 > > >>> If you do cd sys/modules/dtrace/dtraceall && make [obj depend] all,= does > > >>> it compile OK with the above change? > > >>=20 > > >> Depends on your expectations I guess. As neither NFS-related option = gets > > >> defined, no dependency on either NFS module is registered. The compi= ler has > > >> no complaints, though. > > >=20 > > > Interesting. Could you repeat after sufficient cleaning up? > > > I am not sure where from opt_nfs.h file could come. > > >=20 > >=20 > > Maybe related: check out sys/modules/ipfw/Makefile. It makes its own o= ption headers for INET and INET6. I think guessing that INET and INET6 are available is a lot more reasonable than doing the same for the external NFS modules. > I've pondered this on an off for a couple of weeks now. I can clearly > see that if we want compile time dependencies, that's fine, we can make > each nfclient object dependant on the #define. Both are valid cases to > have loaded though, so they shouldn't be conditional on each other as in > my patches. >=20 > If one does this however, the module makefile needs to be adjusted like > the ipfw makefile to create an opt_nfs.h with the NFS client defines, > else you will have neither dtrace object available. >=20 > There isn't a clear way that I can see to compile dtraceall.ko as a > module if you are doing so outside of the kernel compile though. The > module tree isn't really aware of what you are running, therefore it > would have to compile to load both regardless. Which, if your kernel > doesn't support one or both nfs objects, will cause a kldload failure. In my opinion depending on neither nfs modules when the module is build manually is preferable to depending on both. For users without the nfs modules available, forcing the dependencies renders the dtraceall module useless, while users who want to dtrace nfs can still use dtraceall and simply load the nfs module manually afterwards if the dependency is missing. Fabian --Sig_/IauXZrZjSDtAROh/qOoS3Zp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlAYDFYACgkQBYqIVf93VJ2SiACeLrKP9UjW4cBhN0iJoFd2NK39 CHMAoIhjlgQhcMrrOWZY8tBkrSZSTRT+ =OjOz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/IauXZrZjSDtAROh/qOoS3Zp-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 19:47:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D2C106564A; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 19:47:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA158FC0A; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 19:47:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by weyx56 with SMTP id x56so5567475wey.13 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=eYl4yEqmuUtxh2mK10eZkSuXCFMuNURgdhCXK8v/BhQ=; b=Os8FM5DMTzz9JK7tB+B4aPsRNWg/pMdxr/nSG2kE3RWEDBB9I5F45F2MofeHIYYgSR V7dEoAn6eHgDDm8AcCsWIVluamLfKYtsc5X4qCjHkGZSYDn2DoTx/l7g2CNqlXTiRXAk jLVqnSuVnRxNmRARN0zCk5VLJyND1tyc6LM2zB/0r5JPC9das4uDsvwZlhtnEPVuMDmb AwNbAZ6RNTk61l0T9AxlbwE/YXyTSRRAa79cNrIlzomaCgi4W9JzBpwIY6xcivle6jaP IVl+nf4IdbbZjCJYe1jEBiqNR13RV1pLWvU5WT1GYxybcbyUcVyOEOYOVvQc3DMPWKUu MbBg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.91.1 with SMTP id ca1mr5365731wib.8.1343764040093; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:47:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: Warner Losh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 19:47:22 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >>> [...] We lack that right now, which is why you're trying to shoe-horn the FDT connections into a newbus world and complaining that everything sucks because it is a poor fit. I'd suggest that different mechanisms are necessary. >>> >> I'm not trying anything, or at least no longer. I do not see the point >> working on that when I can not get trivial patches in, especially >> those fixing poorly maintained drivers, whose issues _do_ affect >> people. > > Hey Arnaud, sorry to be a little harsh, but maybe if you shouted less and cooperated more, people would be more willing to work with you. > I tried to be Mr Nice Guy in the past, all I got in return was being ignored. Lists are full of unanswered problem because people do not want to insist getting an answer. Now, believe me on one point, if you are a driver or subsystem author, might I have an issue with your work, I *will* be a recurring pain in your butt to get the issue fixed, or to get in what I do believe, with the limited set of knowledge and resources to my disposal[0], to be a correct fix for the issue, at the time. If you are condescending, arrogant, or advocates of the status-quo, as have been committers in the past, I will return you favor. Let face it, FreeBSD is not the most outstanding OS out there (despite obvious capabilities), and I would not be too proud of its state. All that to say that asking politely does not work in the arbitrary FreeBSD realm, where "the power to serve", is today nothing more that a relic. - Arnaud ps: note that I am ready to be wrong and to be publicly proven so, as it's been the case recently. [0]: which certainly not mean I am wrong, very far from that. > Having said that, I'd be happy to help fix this problem. I've not seen the patches you're talking about, I'd be happy to take a look and try to get them in, as appropriate. > > Warner > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 31 20:14:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1386A1065670; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:14:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F3F8FC0A; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:14:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so5272904lbo.13 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:14:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=47UrBOJDYSbPz2s2ugNJs9E6pTG7sNjNhAUwQlfkybc=; b=qtLUAS/vp0z7gBmVc3ESra4WAoXbbgEHY5OYptL3QCs/c5xTJ2VlP0Cr3DVAZCFPs5 cidpl63Y5vXvr7XVcUhMG6JG/NKe5ckDu4WxW6XDPPAPEWpZsk0gvRVSWN083K0QCehh BrNlwWgkSOZab+FC/OlBDznbPl0pgl6Ws1gFlXoMOMjtmIqOWkwjYbp5QeleL0s/fojk QVlP5/uvvUF21DX4vDUw2eesOUR7LUC7uUmSZ2CF66EdqZNUOqR6YKdonbRJPm/Q4u0t vm3mi617zyg/ZPkBUeyw14B23zghWkMF1ACArEKpjNa+Ev3Z5zXjEA6Bg05i6tycu30V iaCA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.11.100 with SMTP id p4mr7247166lbb.35.1343765667060; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.27.65 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201207301706.02788.jhb@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:14:26 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: lvT5vYIH5XgrNU6hqL6JEQudXpY Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:14:29 -0000 On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Jul 31, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >>>> [...] We lack that right now, which is why you're trying to shoe-horn the FDT connections into a newbus world and complaining that everything sucks because it is a poor fit. I'd suggest that different mechanisms are necessary. >>>> >>> I'm not trying anything, or at least no longer. I do not see the point >>> working on that when I can not get trivial patches in, especially >>> those fixing poorly maintained drivers, whose issues _do_ affect >>> people. >> >> Hey Arnaud, sorry to be a little harsh, but maybe if you shouted less and cooperated more, people would be more willing to work with you. >> > I tried to be Mr Nice Guy in the past, all I got in return was being > ignored. Lists are full of unanswered problem because people do not > want to insist getting an answer. Now, believe me on one point, if you > are a driver or subsystem author, might I have an issue with your > work, I *will* be a recurring pain in your butt to get the issue > fixed, or to get in what I do believe, with the limited set of > knowledge and resources to my disposal[0], to be a correct fix for the > issue, at the time. If you are condescending, arrogant, or advocates > of the status-quo, as have been committers in the past, I will return > you favor. Let face it, FreeBSD is not the most outstanding OS out > there (despite obvious capabilities), and I would not be too proud of > its state. > > All that to say that asking politely does not work in the arbitrary > FreeBSD realm, where "the power to serve", is today nothing more that > a relic. Arnaud, the problem I see here is that as always you make strong and false claims on bugs and missing support from FreeBSD kernel, but when people points out what are you missing/misunderstanding, you turn the whole thread into "FreeBSD is a relic" baby-whining, without replying with real technical arguments and simply ignoring e-mail by freebsd developers. I didn't see any response from you to several technical e-mail in this threads and others (please don't force me to open mailman and show exactly all the responses you have deliberately ignored), spitting unrespectful, poison-weighted words on developers of our project. You don't want to work cooperatively. You don't want to build something with FreeBSD community. So why you keep insist on sending e-mail like this? Don't you think it would be more productive for you to stick with another project? (I have a couple of names into my head that may be a good fit for you...). I think it is very offensive that you mock our statement like that. For many people reading this e-mail it has a true meaning, people like you should really watch his mouth when speaking about FreeBSD. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 00:12:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6690106566C for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:12:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB3C8FC0C for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:12:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q71026qD021204 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:02:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:02:05 -0700 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120702 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:12:28 -0000 One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was playing, it would usually cycle with a very short period. And system stops being sensitive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system doesn't get a response. I would normally think that this is the faulty memory. But memory was recently replaced and tested with memtest+ for hours both before and after freezes and it passes all tests. One out of the ordinary thing that is running on this system is nvidia driver. But the freezes happen even when there is no graphics activity. Another out of the ordinary thing is that the kernel is built for DTrace. But DTrace was never used in the sessions that had a freeze. What is the way to diagnose this problem? CPU: i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz Memory: 24GB MB: P2T Yuri From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 00:20:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84074106568C for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:20:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0D78FC12 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:20:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so5273872laa.13 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:20:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=DZXamykAOUDBansMTgbiVkPUpOBHpQY1gP+6p312by8=; b=MrnbAHTSSlSWr0trTLEh8qyaMrS6rwcPL6MWO+qA9t6IoI0+/UdeVLARXEKs6hJg6a Yn1+PbPfGsD8BXBFOhuAbeMsTQxMJUnMB/sZQOFEIlZ/MUvLAYZ/R8orUXRTMLB+epiC 7LgpZudghRxNuqXzsK7K+oGHQHrFkw0VXwIddLhEPrd82OFOL/F9xJ+AzmJ0Zvpf4/fY p6gW7BeLoxhL7Jt2boDC3u8ttDX3uDbhfntiFmOJ7ZRRLuL+Yq6WlyMq7Ka3zZtnjPUf IMOXReExMIF9LPdgro2p/JJJrJFwbd0EwXd6Je279WgySDYCgZG8gzcCBfdsmwjTYndt mY+Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.131.9 with SMTP id oi9mr16253679lab.39.1343780400600; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.27.65 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:20:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 01:20:00 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: QCHKeXJY4Ef5q-geETA-dFUUqjo Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Yuri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:20:02 -0000 On 8/1/12, Yuri wrote: > One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was playing, > it would usually cycle with a very short period. And system stops being > sensitive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system doesn't get a > response. > I would normally think that this is the faulty memory. But memory was > recently replaced and tested with memtest+ for hours both before and > after freezes and it passes all tests. > One out of the ordinary thing that is running on this system is nvidia > driver. But the freezes happen even when there is no graphics activity. > Another out of the ordinary thing is that the kernel is built for > DTrace. But DTrace was never used in the sessions that had a freeze. > > What is the way to diagnose this problem? Start by adding SW_WATCHDOG to your machine with a reasonably low timeout. Also, can you use a serial console? If yes you may consider going with a serial break. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 00:29:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31EFF106564A for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:29:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0472E8FC14 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:29:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from JRE-MBP-2.local (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q710TDWF081067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:29:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <50187853.7080206@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:29:07 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yuri References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> In-Reply-To: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:29:21 -0000 On 7/31/12 5:02 PM, Yuri wrote: > One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was > playing, it would usually cycle with a very short period. And system > stops being sensitive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system > doesn't get a response. > I would normally think that this is the faulty memory. But memory > was recently replaced and tested with memtest+ for hours both before > and after freezes and it passes all tests. > One out of the ordinary thing that is running on this system is > nvidia driver. But the freezes happen even when there is no graphics > activity. > Another out of the ordinary thing is that the kernel is built for > DTrace. But DTrace was never used in the sessions that had a freeze. > > What is the way to diagnose this problem? The answer depends on a number of things but an NMI can be useful if you have some way of generating them. (some IPMI implementations can allw you to generate them and some motherboards have jumpers to allow you to attach a 'nmi-button'. The fact that ping is not responsive is important, as that is done at a very low level but it may still be alive down there somewhere. Make sure you have debugging enabled in your kernel. That will catch quite a few 'hangs'. as also mentioned by others... a serial console and DDB may also be useful in some hangs. Julian > CPU: i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz > Memory: 24GB > MB: P2T > > Yuri > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 00:50:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B384106564A for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:50:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nonesuch@longcount.org) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC268FC12 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 00:50:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbgb22 with SMTP id gb22so7851080vcb.13 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:50:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to :x-gm-message-state; bh=HrvwHZDVmj7qd6iE3RTj1me6n1omWOGV8TL/nco/gRw=; b=XVhZM8Ru5/73f1oLuO1jPRf6kjo51iPTVqJxvqDxsWAzmj2Ttffi1RcJiOEvtw0xJN Q3f6dkWhNdAem4OtZYA0kIFScf3q4SnclhoXeynj6mBpf0JLDOKYOkof+Gok0k2o0ZM5 qBkdkpnOYaTLt1Kmtro894BmqSREcmj0SScKMob4fySjI08IkBKaKtZ+n0fFo4EV0d8U 0MUx+BZ+oGj1NPels1c6nraD1YspZppcQgP6Gswc/cHRmvppm5ITs6T9MVhcIzp+W0ON Z0j1fKG1cE8UD9CAN6sN9rRo9Z5l/7cNZwI24AkIHAy1LKE4qqIriwiNhsGeO6zZuP6y lPZg== Received: by 10.58.169.16 with SMTP id aa16mr4225062vec.33.1343782225807; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.11.202] (ool-182c8651.dyn.optonline.net. [24.44.134.81]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ek5sm1583873vdb.5.2012.07.31.17.50.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:50:25 -0700 (PDT) References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> <50187853.7080206@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <50187853.7080206@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B206) From: Mark Saad Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:50:23 -0400 To: Julian Elischer X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmz4q1A/ffKx5mxASRrBYrJy9fcW+Mr7G1N9anG2o8IGQagYHI/4WVK62KMgRlaHfEG/2jE Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:50:27 -0000 On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 7/31/12 5:02 PM, Yuri wrote: >> One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was playing, i= t would usually cycle with a very short period. And system stops being sensi= tive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system doesn't get a response. >> I would normally think that this is the faulty memory. But memory was rec= ently replaced and tested with memtest+ for hours both before and after free= zes and it passes all tests. >> One out of the ordinary thing that is running on this system is nvidia dr= iver. But the freezes happen even when there is no graphics activity. >> Another out of the ordinary thing is that the kernel is built for DTrace.= But DTrace was never used in the sessions that had a freeze. >>=20 >> What is the way to diagnose this problem? > The answer depends on a number of things but an NMI can be useful if you h= ave some way of > generating them. (some IPMI implementations can allw you to generate them a= nd some motherboards have > jumpers to allow you to attach a 'nmi-button'. >=20 > The fact that ping is not responsive is important, as that is done at a ve= ry low level but > it may still be alive down there somewhere. >=20 > Make sure you have debugging enabled in your kernel. That will catch quite= a few 'hangs'. >=20 > as also mentioned by others... a serial console and DDB may also be useful= in some hangs. >=20 >=20 > Julian >> CPU: i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz >> Memory: 24GB >> MB: P2T >>=20 >> Yuri >>=20 Yuri Install sysutils/mcelog and try running the example included . While not a= complete definitative hardware test it can report other hardware issues tha= t memtest86+ misses and it can be run on line in multiuser mode and via cron= .=20 --- Mark saad | mark.saad@longcount.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 03:14:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C65106566B; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 03:14:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Received: from shell0.rawbw.com (shell0.rawbw.com [198.144.192.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5961F8FC08; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 03:14:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from eagle.yuri.org (stunnel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell0.rawbw.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q713ERRf048555; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:14:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yuri@rawbw.com) Message-ID: <50189F13.8020803@rawbw.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:14:27 -0700 From: Yuri User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120702 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Saad References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> <50187853.7080206@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 03:14:29 -0000 On 07/31/2012 17:50, Mark Saad wrote: > Yuri > Install sysutils/mcelog and try running the example included . While not a complete definitative hardware test it can report other hardware issues that memtest86+ misses and it can be run on line in multiuser mode and via cron . Thanks for suggesting this. I have a question, however. Let's say 'mcelog --daemon' runs and encounters some MCE and logs it. Wouldn't this record be lost during the subsequent ungraceful (poweroff) reboot? Nonfatal MCEs, if any, will stay but what about the fatal one? Yuri From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 09:24:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFEA1065670 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:24:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4E18FC0C for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:24:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q719OZ6P001811; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:24:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q719ORrY001808; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:24:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:24:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Yuri In-Reply-To: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> Message-ID: References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:24:35 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:24:40 -0000 > One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was playing, it > would usually cycle with a very short period. so interrupts are off. > And system stops being > sensitive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system doesn't get a response. > I would normally think that this is the faulty memory. But memory was > recently replaced and tested with memtest+ for hours both before and after > freezes and it passes all tests. this is not a proof but if you can compile generic with make -j50 it is quite a good proof memory is not.. > One out of the ordinary thing that is running on this system is nvidia > driver. this is the most probable reason. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 16:32:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0296E1065796; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:32:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1468FC08; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgbds11 with SMTP id ds11so6848658wgb.31 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:32:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=QOKgZqLaGgIf29vP15vsJx5sPCeS8WiVIdH4X20oxtk=; b=SGV/fYv6w9JslqQof6/qWmT3CC4ZMhpcVOzuA9yZ/fR33HS8G1J41pu5VUkOVn3y6l W76XyqHGHJbsT1UIQPh+RY8XmWb/VCpMAAWg3JjuZ+vQLt0zoBjL6hvvZeFlxEH84lGZ vm/O072Ti/Cu7CAdPcllSjgPGU+u5RzYDJZcIufvr9sl7IqqVhF44SvEfsAofR/6KFQT mss2gUj2v2PfFKvlhxSYyQVgcuaF/m1z1mUF7zDN18NTOS8OjabKHQjzVPFFyJWcjdMT FEC8T2mzo2UXkbJtHE6He8WT/GRJxXzPPyqqxhurD6tXA0lsM4BLmHzrtyaWgGPVDJby kxAw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.217.0.75 with SMTP id k53mr8785733wes.214.1343838769094; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:32:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: attilio@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:32:58 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > > You don't want to work cooperatively. > Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at BSDCan ? Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held privately ? - Arnaud From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 16:40:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D21106566B; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:40:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B7A8FC12; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:40:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so5797543laa.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=tYRg3Cq0Y8NZLSuwk5ohIqqqTovz08AkeFSye68OsPM=; b=gaXCJqKSpGZRnoQa6fajoxh44Fuh2Yl2MMIXNO7B2RlmMOmI5jMQZ1bjE/vErB7nuq aVyRuiEvUgu4krUVQSiatZ27LzCn/tCCpWPMS/14ezVbkEIW/AxMqE2ytqkKSfjEWo+h EhohKQaF1cUOId8d6ucv826Umlf1sWBcbFRNDbEVtqujDno69yu9dacTFIA2L241j62w QxTWyX1RE1PCiX+4NLTg3PHpvDdi48uaVFwdXuDhcgNcSS3O+Y0lYp5swfvUmyAhY4RM LMBB+KjP/x9Uy0XDnsrGI1+DsyY7gqs01wRyYlt3W2Lmj2WP6sHLhpCW9BUweKwMShxe ekpA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.131.9 with SMTP id oi9mr18488685lab.39.1343839215238; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.27.65 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:40:15 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: wO7F85j8seZVw0Su8m2kihdTn9U Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:40:17 -0000 On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >> >> You don't want to work cooperatively. >> > Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in > internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at > BSDCan ? > > Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held privately ? Arnaud, belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of different details that you may not have under control when talking to people, etc). Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved in initial brainstorming of some works, but after this period constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans on the mailing lists or other media. If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise plan/roadmap/etc. b) there is still not consensus on details and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing list. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 17:05:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A75106566C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6238FC1C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:05:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhm11 with SMTP id hm11so3301634wib.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=vKqyBBbtlOQ8J+CIkvkglPLj/fF5b2mywAuC9aAJObk=; b=gr122OREYMqendZoEgCImt0uOknHtez/RiF6lxN2Fu6wXhzHOAGjgn/7aJaxpy81pb JwO2HCqDlnU/kgZp9z4ah/zFh/fqb3gNgRmUGn+YgVpocu0FWiqS8ilD6+NyedJu46Fc YfQgwLHEsIRN4tC0xeVRRAG/sMyukt7DUM7AzPxFNLwMUYJblbMOfWqbbqHuworLEa+Z YvDC4MOy3Fz1Rln60NZ0KYMLmpxtdyaD9jQ3QcqyIpFPOBmvDsUJSOn+T9MtD7pMa12f I9NwAVZxHr3Ah7TWbW5X6IAECT9rxPXpjqvIM6VAme+IkHUB+ZneqD9O+PQM6nMxo+yR HBmQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.85.167 with SMTP id i7mr18049853wiz.8.1343840708438; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:05:08 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: attilio@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 17:05:16 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >>> >>> You don't want to work cooperatively. >>> >> Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in >> internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at >> BSDCan ? >> >> Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held privately ? > > Arnaud, > belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision > that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer > review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of > different details that you may not have under control when talking to > people, etc). > Whose call is it to declare something worth public discussion ? No one. Every time I see a "Suggested by:", "Submitted by:", "Reported by:", and especially "Approved by:", there should to be a public reference of the mentioned communication. > Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved > in initial brainstorming of some works, > Never. > but after this period > constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans > on the mailing lists or other media. > Again, never. By doing so, you merely put the community in a situation where, well, "We, committers, have come with this, you can either accept or STFU, but no major changes will be made because we decided so." The callout-ng conference at BSDCan was just beautiful, it was basically: Speaker: "we will do this" Audience: "how about this situation ? What you will do will not work." Speaker: "thank you for listening, end of the conference" It was beautiful to witness. > If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: > a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise > plan/roadmap/etc. > so not only you make it private, but it shamelessly failed... > b) there is still not consensus on details > Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference in the future. There is no problem with this. > and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. > Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing > list. > This is not the way "openness" should be about. - Arnaud > Attilio > > > -- > Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 18:18:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9353E106564A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:18:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F018FC0C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:18:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so5864706laa.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=G58ahDoqZx5DAM/xsRJp7ktRMO8AKxr+HV1yF2sEYL8=; b=LbQyQ+O4fpqVqC9+QBBoS0ZSV6C8NaNedi+86kFrLtvycOjkKhSyWglcW8bj6Ygyms UxhujsG9T5zf0LPOF7H/2axRe2j7d7YYLncBujD/I9723K4ZtlNzy27AMtXL375Gjaqs 721YD7wwmFf+exivBRfFW4QLIEGXbnUmV8Y/gRAf93E7tSTwWx7TjVDCzy2SdZAjjqqE P361NSdbShx/LUciv8habDMX0GwoLD78tbmml5i6Su/PX2WTcTubpsAj8Dk96Xv2wnGK i75He9Ak94orpcrpk3QPaFCKv6xFkL1aqiXxp5UNGKRyZqjQRu6ImcQprIK3+y2MDows 9QbQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.42.34 with SMTP id k2mr8582422lbl.0.1343845109200; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.27.65 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:18:28 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: cO2Hq5cflnC0rxHVHrVm193MuaU Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 18:18:31 -0000 On 8/1/12, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe >> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> You don't want to work cooperatively. >>>> >>> Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in >>> internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at >>> BSDCan ? >>> >>> Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held >>> privately ? >> >> Arnaud, >> belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision >> that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer >> review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of >> different details that you may not have under control when talking to >> people, etc). >> > Whose call is it to declare something worth public discussion ? No one. > > Every time I see a "Suggested by:", "Submitted by:", "Reported by:", > and especially "Approved by:", there should to be a public reference > of the mentioned communication. Not necessarilly. Every developer must ensure to produce a quality work, with definition of "quality" being discretional. Some people fail this expectation, while others do very good. As a general rule, some people send patches to experts on the matter and they just trust their judgment, others also full-fill testing cycles by thirdy part people, others again ask for public reviews. Often this process is adapted based on the dimension of the work and the number of architectural changes it introduces. As a personal matter, for a big architectural change things I would *personally* do are: - Prepare a master-plan with experts of the matter - Post a plan (after having achived consensus) on the public mailing list for further discussions - Adjust the plan based on public feedbacks (if necessary) - Implement the plan - Ask the experts if they have objections to the implementation - Ask testers to perform some stress-testing - Ask testers to perform benchmark (if I find people interested in that) - Send out to the public mailing list for public review - Integrate suggestions - Ask testers to stress-test again - Commit I think this model in general works fairly well, but people may have different ideas on that, meaning that people may want to not involve thirdy part for testing or review. This is going to be risky and lower the quality of their work but it is their call. >> Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved >> in initial brainstorming of some works, >> > Never. > >> but after this period >> constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans >> on the mailing lists or other media. >> > Again, never. By doing so, you merely put the community in a situation > where, well, "We, committers, have come with this, you can either > accept or STFU, but no major changes will be made because we decided > so." You are forgetting one specific detail: you can always review a work *after* it entered the tree. This is something you would never do, but sometimes, when poor quality code is committed there is nothing else you can do than just raise your concern after it is in. > The callout-ng conference at BSDCan was just beautiful, it was basically: > > Speaker: "we will do this" > Audience: "how about this situation ? What you will do will not work." > Speaker: "thank you for listening, end of the conference" > > It was beautiful to witness. Not sure if you realized but I was what you mention "Audience". I think you are referring to a specific case where a quick heads-up on a summer of code project has been presented, you cannot really believe all the technical discussion around FreeBSD evolve this way. >> If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: >> a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise >> plan/roadmap/etc. >> > so not only you make it private, but it shamelessly failed... And so? I think you have a wrong point of view of what is shamelessly... I'm working on the same project since 6 months, i thought I could finish it in 1 but then I understood that in order to get the quality I was hoping I had to do more work... does it qualify as failed, according to your standard? >> b) there is still not consensus on details >> > Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference > in the future. There is no problem with this. > >> and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. >> Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing >> list. >> > This is not the way "openness" should be about. There is not much more you can do when people don't share details and discussions automatically. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 19:20:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720DF106566C for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:20:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nonesuch@longcount.org) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B318FC14 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:20:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbmv11 with SMTP id v11so1366464vbm.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:20:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=vjilbEBnuYXttoUqKCsGXMWotFd9LFS24zaI1qQKwfg=; b=mt6zXZrvslur6OMvUDEk0k6S8baqCUnL53JktHOJzX1hQdtS53A5Mdc6XeuSERVYZH uRGLo7z11pJ46L6WCCH1CNIvcb/P4kAFKsBecqd0b8EDlo2KaSJrP64M1UlZ1ERqcd+w UJJiaDAH/KnAm8BGFFwyeWnd7aKuowYvC/Qao8uFEpHTRdvbrIZUuYTdEB3IEXuNJ25R t8ffDafL6BFdK8Zrq2IPCxx2ugAfqK7h2QQWU37WuRjJGDlDOhE9AkgMeeuAqAMHRPTO MWgF5Qb4WpdWDYXKRpr7f8QBM1R+Ic6h+yRGJOAP4uNpebKzlSxQzsIaHg9EGECOIlfK L0fw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.22.50 with SMTP id a18mr15699555vdf.60.1343848821155; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.171.6 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:20:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [209.66.78.50] In-Reply-To: <50189F13.8020803@rawbw.com> References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> <50187853.7080206@freebsd.org> <50189F13.8020803@rawbw.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:20:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mark Saad To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnMUKcsKpIcTvJHkCyQOb9BckivTbFC4CdAtw7FPKjaH82ihOVXVPuoIElbAC7jlGwt6XmD Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:20:28 -0000 On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:14 PM, Yuri wrote: > On 07/31/2012 17:50, Mark Saad wrote: >> >> Yuri >> Install sysutils/mcelog and try running the example included . While >> not a complete definitative hardware test it can report other hardware >> issues that memtest86+ misses and it can be run on line in multiuser mode >> and via cron . > > > Thanks for suggesting this. I have a question, however. Let's say 'mcelog > --daemon' runs and encounters some MCE and logs it. Wouldn't this record be > lost during the subsequent ungraceful (poweroff) reboot? Nonfatal MCEs, if > any, will stay but what about the fatal one? > Daemon mode does not work on FreeBSD , and on most if not all linux distros it runs via cron. In this example you can have it write the logged results via syslog and hopefully you should be able to review them. /usr/local/bin/mcelog --ignorenodev --filter --no-dmi --syslog or /usr/local/bin/mcelog --no-dmi > /var/log/mce.log Now that being said , when mcelog reports an error , it continuously reports the error, each time mcelog is run, power cycling did not clear the mcelog . -- mark saad | nonesuch@longcount.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 19:38:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B9A106566B for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:38:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f182.google.com (mail-yx0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1391E8FC0A for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:38:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yenl8 with SMTP id l8so9084581yen.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=zOOkBNR500PgofTcEONsCsZ+I1ZIwS2T3QhL8epM0d8=; b=A2Rs534+cYMOobu93NygTWnzkjbrenKpGBMVOdZ4S5OjyXkf1lUld4k8EtHq7oO/j8 WhW8OLgf/DcHRbnuq0jPqpoTTUogxUTRVijG0g2j+4iUgA6asltpKeF/zu76nzAg1R0/ WX4LWVyKtipSH+6qH9yHCP3pv8I+ND4RV+tiliUId+QCuwBjT4vTGpyfboNDRuOaPSOL r9oINxkl4zjELoGhvZVVxJqhPXrwJl1Ciyii7Zl9YWNVxLRoalZEM5WPTREi2Xl3bqx9 pbcWeS8IUYH0jO0mNlDbyAnrrsWI+6lreCXJiQQ2+bAaGwvFxZ8AokiT2fU1rhwTI9WG lnag== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.24.7 with SMTP id q7mr30670519oef.54.1343849922311; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.84.7 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:38:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Yuri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:38:43 -0000 On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Yuri wrote: > One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was playing, it > would usually cycle with a very short period. And system stops being > sensitive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system doesn't get a > response. > I would normally think that this is the faulty memory. But memory was > recently replaced and tested with memtest+ for hours both before and after > freezes and it passes all tests. > One out of the ordinary thing that is running on this system is nvidia > driver. But the freezes happen even when there is no graphics activity. > Another out of the ordinary thing is that the kernel is built for DTrace. > But DTrace was never used in the sessions that had a freeze. > > What is the way to diagnose this problem? As an aside, where do you see things lockup (Xorg, Firefox, etc)? Can you remain sshed into the box or not? What sound driver are you using and how are you playing sound/video? Thanks, -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 19:45:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBCE106564A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:45:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5758FC0A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:45:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgbds11 with SMTP id ds11so7004548wgb.31 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:45:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=SzedmssDr5OQGcpPEtLAFzoUsa7MPo7YTp08DpRTa7Q=; b=bAvtTEHO0SQ2UNPmaOC1FObfNACRfdwp+kVbnRLWieJQqs+c4jpFtHxybyB4lQkY94 BJBmT7IVZ7T1NTKSqBTIloMVPpZPt1ZwCBVqVCAT6RoFGolN8/3tJObIqpBM+L4Ai6ur VfhVdFzrBAZr7xym8cqUev27PVt0wkOBCsLiaQ3e1A+03qlHqdyvqVQTaHc0UFbSpmSy vPedIQZ63Ji1scIsk2Zsi5kcRru1T14se1B0VGcv/Rt693iYEKa/tVDk6fyS0ScppQ4d 7SXvbLepA90498wa6kqV5+AotIEwMqysumtghTTMEx3MKtDKzidx9Eo5azJwGlDZs5UA vFmw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.81.66 with SMTP id y2mr18959943wix.22.1343850335435; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:45:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:45:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: attilio@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:45:38 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > On 8/1/12, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >>> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe >>> wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You don't want to work cooperatively. >>>>> >>>> Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in >>>> internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at >>>> BSDCan ? >>>> >>>> Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held >>>> privately ? >>> >>> Arnaud, >>> belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision >>> that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer >>> review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of >>> different details that you may not have under control when talking to >>> people, etc). >>> >> Whose call is it to declare something worth public discussion ? No one. >> >> Every time I see a "Suggested by:", "Submitted by:", "Reported by:", >> and especially "Approved by:", there should to be a public reference >> of the mentioned communication. > > Not necessarilly. Every developer must ensure to produce a quality > work, with definition of "quality" being discretional. Some people > fail this expectation, while others do very good. As a general rule, > some people send patches to experts on the matter and they just trust > their judgment, others also full-fill testing cycles by thirdy part > people, others again ask for public reviews. Often this process is > adapted based on the dimension of the work and the number of > architectural changes it introduces. > > As a personal matter, for a big architectural change things I would > *personally* do are: > - Prepare a master-plan with experts of the matter > - Post a plan (after having achived consensus) on the public mailing > list for further discussions > - Adjust the plan based on public feedbacks (if necessary) > - Implement the plan > - Ask the experts if they have objections to the implementation > - Ask testers to perform some stress-testing > - Ask testers to perform benchmark (if I find people interested in that) > - Send out to the public mailing list for public review > - Integrate suggestions > - Ask testers to stress-test again > - Commit > > I think this model in general works fairly well, > I agree. > but people may have > different ideas on that, meaning that people may want to not involve > thirdy part for testing or review. This is going to be risky and lower > the quality of their work but it is their call. > >>> Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved >>> in initial brainstorming of some works, >>> >> Never. >> >>> but after this period >>> constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans >>> on the mailing lists or other media. >>> >> Again, never. By doing so, you merely put the community in a situation >> where, well, "We, committers, have come with this, you can either >> accept or STFU, but no major changes will be made because we decided >> so." > > You are forgetting one specific detail: you can always review a work > *after* it entered the tree. This is something you would never do, but > sometimes, when poor quality code is committed there is nothing else > you can do than just raise your concern after it is in. > Unfortunately, not. First, the developer will certainly have moved on after the commit, API may have been changed tree-wide, etc. Then, time is likely to have passed between the time you figure potential regression or bugs, which makes the first point even more problematic. Finally, if my point of view is being ignored *before* it goes to the tree, do you really expect it will be considered *after* ? >From my external point of view, committers not only have the possibility, but *do* commit mess in the tree without non-committers could say or do anything, just as well as committers being able to arbitrarily close PR even if the original reporter disagree. >> The callout-ng conference at BSDCan was just beautiful, it was basically: >> >> Speaker: "we will do this" >> Audience: "how about this situation ? What you will do will not work." >> Speaker: "thank you for listening, end of the conference" >> >> It was beautiful to witness. > > Not sure if you realized but I was what you mention "Audience". I > think you are referring to a specific case where a quick heads-up on a > summer of code project has been presented, you cannot really believe > all the technical discussion around FreeBSD evolve this way. > indeed, but that was still the case back then. >>> If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: >>> a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise >>> plan/roadmap/etc. >>> >> so not only you make it private, but it shamelessly failed... > > And so? I think you have a wrong point of view of what is > shamelessly... I'm working on the same project since 6 months, i > thought I could finish it in 1 but then I understood that in order to > get the quality I was hoping I had to do more work... does it qualify > as failed, according to your standard? > not specifically, but at the end of that project of your, I would run a post-mortem meeting to see what went correctly and where things got out-of-control. As for the mbuf meeting, all I can find from it online is: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-June/012629.html which is not worth much... Rather than doing things internally, maybe it is time to open up... oh, wait, you will certainly come to the community with a design plan, figure out it's not gonna work while doing the implementation, change the design plan while implementing, go public with a +3k/-2k loc change patch, ask for benediction, go ahead and commit it up until someone comes with an obvious design flaw which would render the change pretty much useless, but there will be man-month of work to fix it, so it's never gonna be done. One obvious problem in FreeBSD is that committers are prosecutor, judge and jury altogether. That's not the first time I point this out. >>> b) there is still not consensus on details >>> >> Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference >> in the future. There is no problem with this. >> >>> and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. >>> Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing >>> list. >>> >> This is not the way "openness" should be about. > > There is not much more you can do when people don't share details and > discussions automatically. > keep reporting regressions, interface flaws, POLA violations, ABI breakages, bugs, etc. - Arnaud From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 19:57:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5743E1065673; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:57:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mexas@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from dirj.bris.ac.uk (dirj.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.78]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EE38FC17; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:57:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ncsd.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.10.59] helo=ncs.bris.ac.uk) by dirj.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Swf2b-0007Ez-5l; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:57:09 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.187.241]) by ncs.bris.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Swf2a-0004GM-V1; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:57:09 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q71Jv8QL020512; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:57:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk) Received: (from mexas@localhost) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q71Jv83U020511; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:57:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:57:08 +0100 (BST) From: Anton Shterenlikht Message-Id: <201208011957.q71Jv83U020511@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> To: attilio@freebsd.org, lacombar@gmail.com In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:57:10 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:45:35 -0400 From: Arnaud Lacombe One obvious problem in FreeBSD is that committers are prosecutor, judge and jury altogether. As a user, I accept this. I think if you can make a meaningful contribution to FreeBSD developments in the design stages, then become a committer. Otherwise contribute as a user - testing and bug reports mainly. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 20:06:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49352106564A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:06:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f54.google.com (mail-yw0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5928FC12; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:06:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yhfs35 with SMTP id s35so9061041yhf.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:06:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Is6cPwt7vJ/s0rgBzxY7fLBUAGUg4QECfF2MJHD5oZQ=; b=I9ce32TIWABSLm6xmlb3bxnBGcYvJAEbO5yGSjCOo2Or50HekqfMatOg08Xoyg0aV3 b4rQi8zJdOEH/upydQDWqpa2ubMR8eJAj+UK50RcERxYZwxLqUiY1jFc9x+Ir9ZSr52D VVFtB6/Sh5Pg2HQl65HQDqEz5Iv3M0JokWgcelS4vg3gg2fSyIcj1EQY5eM+pUcY9R7B 5bxIv2m6Zj5orbgbZSscRCt3x8yUq4Kxg12JA6q/zlTpBTp5IJgsi9CPq5lniqhqkzfj hZMsnuUHDzz6Abbr0Cp3UgXsNvNnmAIPi4vhxoR1vhZ7PkVw/5nKaG/NfRByPO63A2rn oRmQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.241.35 with SMTP id wf3mr54296461pbc.102.1343851595611; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.66.136 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:06:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:06:35 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: NTpezFgf4Vm_WCq6Jy4M026hHYU Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:06:37 -0000 Any interested party is very welcome to approach a developer and get added to the developer summits. Plenty of the people at the most recent developer summit weren't @freebsd.org committers - we had plenty of representation from companies using FreeBSD. If you want to participate, just ask a friendly developer who is going to the developer summit to sponsor you in going. You're pleasant in person, so I'd have no problem sponsoring you if I am going to an event. :) And/or, work with warner to get improvements into the tree and someone will sponsor a commit bit for you. Perhaps we as developers should more openly publish the results of developer summits. But as I said, they're not "closed" - they're just "invite only for non-developers." We're not going to exclude anyone from coming unless they really ARE going to just sit there and troll. You're motivated, you're enthusiastic and you want to see things change for the better. You're also not confrontational in person. I have no problem with you coming along. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 20:32:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445F21065672; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:32:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D728FC0A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:32:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbbgm13 with SMTP id gm13so334638lbb.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:32:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ifULWAoBuNT4o/8MD2e+KyORQdnC4kFyou11I4f8xFM=; b=QYMYYT6vSbG0dcjFgbLBtRaoHiGZlwkn33uu6KvlSj5zX62gF/5XlSGIRTXzv/msMN OwykkGCU/DnfLvFUEb16EQ55WRhj+2Nq1TsR9KMxY643OAP7CfE5UEdwaDtj2KM4o5yX YCoRFWTRAz1NVFfCOH6hHcPjm02DefviDgafSBtV/2aRTBRvm2cL3ToygeK3lmGA/l+c sXiyjCaTWJVobcCTvNqOIyWFuVqVfiyXsCuI/RXFplXjnVIbF3Tj/emPbMv+zBYDTyz3 FLjG6SOiJUvwEPhVvfEHb1xH+++K8iPTWJI+EAVZAOGPmPi3amHM8WT7jouF3yyEvqdv UhZQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.11.100 with SMTP id p4mr8684940lbb.35.1343853164343; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.27.65 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:32:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:32:44 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: nrVUHQjaUP-1g3h8Q92MNdaj7e8 Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:32:46 -0000 On 8/1/12, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: [ trimm ] >> You are forgetting one specific detail: you can always review a work >> *after* it entered the tree. This is something you would never do, but >> sometimes, when poor quality code is committed there is nothing else >> you can do than just raise your concern after it is in. >> > Unfortunately, not. First, the developer will certainly have moved on > after the commit, API may have been changed tree-wide, etc. Then, time > is likely to have passed between the time you figure potential > regression or bugs, which makes the first point even more problematic. > Finally, if my point of view is being ignored *before* it goes to the > tree, do you really expect it will be considered *after* ? There is one thing you are not considering: committers are as powerless as non-committers in face of someone stuck on his own buggy ideas/implementations. Often people are just convinced their idea is better than your and they won't change their mind, regardeless their status in the opensource community. And there is nothing more you can do apart from learning how to deal with such situations. Granted, there are projects blowing up and people abbandoning successful opensource community because of this. > From my external point of view, committers not only have the > possibility, but *do* commit mess in the tree without non-committers > could say or do anything, just as well as committers being able to > arbitrarily close PR even if the original reporter disagree. You should look at svn-src@ more often I suspect. You will see how many discussions are in there. >> And so? I think you have a wrong point of view of what is >> shamelessly... I'm working on the same project since 6 months, i >> thought I could finish it in 1 but then I understood that in order to >> get the quality I was hoping I had to do more work... does it qualify >> as failed, according to your standard? >> > not specifically, but at the end of that project of your, I would run > a post-mortem meeting to see what went correctly and where things got > out-of-control. Arnaud, my friend, I have a new for you: this stuff is hard. I see the brightest people I've ever met stuck for weeks on problems, thinking about how to fix them in elegant way. Sometimes things get understimated, sometimes not, this is just part of the game. But an important thing is accepting critics in costructive way and learn. This makes things much easier. > As for the mbuf meeting, all I can find from it online is: > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-June/012629.html > > which is not worth much... Rather than doing things internally, maybe > it is time to open up... oh, wait, you will certainly come to the > community with a design plan, figure out it's not gonna work while > doing the implementation, change the design plan while implementing, > go public with a +3k/-2k loc change patch, ask for benediction, go > ahead and commit it up until someone comes with an obvious design flaw > which would render the change pretty much useless, but there will be > man-month of work to fix it, so it's never gonna be done. > > One obvious problem in FreeBSD is that committers are prosecutor, > judge and jury altogether. That's not the first time I point this out. You are drammatizing. As I already told, please, if you are interested in this topic, ask for the state of the discussion and ask politely to be included from now on. Nobody will reject you only because you don't have a @freebsd.org. >>>> b) there is still not consensus on details >>>> >>> Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference >>> in the future. There is no problem with this. >>> >>>> and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. >>>> Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing >>>> list. >>>> >>> This is not the way "openness" should be about. >> >> There is not much more you can do when people don't share details and >> discussions automatically. >> > keep reporting regressions, interface flaws, POLA violations, ABI > breakages, bugs, etc. I agree. But with the correct and humble mindset and avoiding aggressive behaviour. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 20:40:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05B71065670; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:40:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthewstory@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E3C8FC0A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:40:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so16407778obb.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=hYhQkO9ytYRZytt2JlYps3vUccg3IvOzLxD3naBPzJk=; b=oznlieGPDfmmYs81uGue7BRCc5vPBqsxNe4jgGCJjmJpC4LGMMZUg0FCpFRIlimyXO +vXoDdhkQeTr+4sP15IEEYUX1QFm+ZMreHJS69GxM1tmKLrWFpUM27pIU9JGS9saohnv GL3nMpHmHA6qccAM9i3mej6ncnLpEpiYS2rt/uoVfxvz0MsmEqWvFyzyN5tgHG4uRNzR 3IjWGLkCuVzeF9Y2YzxZWDCf+O+uimO0tJmy+LEdVaV/hWeSvtfyjMcUVAFKV5ZZILVs UhmVDs1Df+BMz3jKEhub3c2TzOeEBEWyvIyKtv+TmTsgLw4z/ihI7CeIyePf1QZmFjDQ N/BQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.44.68 with SMTP id c4mr31322841obm.27.1343853638738; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.21.48 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:40:38 -0400 Message-ID: From: Matthew Story To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:40:39 -0000 On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe > wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao > wrote: > >>> > >>> You don't want to work cooperatively. > >>> > >> Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in > >> internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at > >> BSDCan ? > >> > >> Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held > privately ? > > > > Arnaud, > > belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision > > that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer > > review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of > > different details that you may not have under control when talking to > > people, etc). > > > Whose call is it to declare something worth public discussion ? No one. > > Every time I see a "Suggested by:", "Submitted by:", "Reported by:", > and especially "Approved by:", there should to be a public reference > of the mentioned communication. > > > Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved > > in initial brainstorming of some works, > > > Never. > > > but after this period > > constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans > > on the mailing lists or other media. > > > Again, never. By doing so, you merely put the community in a situation > where, well, "We, committers, have come with this, you can either > accept or STFU, but no major changes will be made because we decided > so." > > The callout-ng conference at BSDCan was just beautiful, it was basically: > > Speaker: "we will do this" > Audience: "how about this situation ? What you will do will not work." > Speaker: "thank you for listening, end of the conference" > > It was beautiful to witness. > > > If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: > > a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise > > plan/roadmap/etc. > > > so not only you make it private, but it shamelessly failed... > > > b) there is still not consensus on details > > > Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference > in the future. There is no problem with this. > > > and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. > > Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing > > list. > > > This is not the way "openness" should be about. > I attended the developer summit, and attended the mbuf working group ... I'm also not a committer. My ASCII transcription of the results of the white-board session were posted to freebsd-arch in june, the post is available for viewing here: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-June/012629.html When the information is readily available (as it is in this case), there is a clear case of confusing one's inability to engage the entirety of FreeBSD with "openness". If you are concerned about the mbuf decisions, you should be subscribed to (and reading) the arch list. > - Arnaud > > > Attilio > > > > > > -- > > Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- regards, matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 21:39:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1F7106564A; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:39:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B93A8FC12; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:39:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhm11 with SMTP id hm11so3479579wib.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=xLIa80/xEXNtoRPAQveycdb1XMlbfVOc6RT3fbZM928=; b=hcz+gBHmcs3vAwtiPaOPTwYmNwRbHuCa6gDKQueDz03UXN3wiy38/zDyzqS3LfCjq0 6oBgmfAt2lRmMYNqnukW2WrrR/4x6YO+oaKORy9V29iS5YowDaL7ZNpACXb5ki94rbXL uoY0RcFqhnwLsDnfaNe3Ht84XkOOLCQx3ADSKgUb4LbO83uaU8BBhCPLw+VJ/RbbzIJt xVlQK5ATdazZSEynfP7wqwbKXo5T6B0vRJRlzxPK1LuDnmN8PLEOlZMWpS9d+cg2vQyV zOYnAAdVPqSfmQ3uJLKoFexvemb6+16gugxJ1m5pw5of36QDIUN2XpTfurlql1iEqgli IHAw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.91.1 with SMTP id ca1mr15093245wib.8.1343857194611; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.140.155 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:39:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: Adrian Chadd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:39:57 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Any interested party is very welcome to approach a developer and get > added to the developer summits. Plenty of the people at the most > recent developer summit weren't @freebsd.org committers - we had > plenty of representation from companies using FreeBSD. > > If you want to participate, just ask a friendly developer who is going > to the developer summit to sponsor you in going. You're pleasant in > person, so I'd have no problem sponsoring you if I am going to an > event. :) > I have a very deep, quasi-philosophical, trouble/problem with that whole idea of sponsor-requirement to attend a such meeting. There is just something which does not feel right about it. From my point of view, this is a matter of common sense, focus is gonna be very narrow and deeply technical. Attendee should go there only if they think they will give positive feedback. As for myself, I would not attend a developer meeting on the fiber-channel over infiniband optimization, but would attend a developer meeting on next-generation mbuf. Now, maybe I'll just push the door of some developer meeting I'd be interested in during next BSDCan, and see what happen :-) The outcome might be interesting to study in a social interaction, prisoner dilemma related, point-of-view. - Arnaud > And/or, work with warner to get improvements into the tree and someone > will sponsor a commit bit for you. > > Perhaps we as developers should more openly publish the results of > developer summits. But as I said, they're not "closed" - they're just > "invite only for non-developers." We're not going to exclude anyone > from coming unless they really ARE going to just sit there and troll. > You're motivated, you're enthusiastic and you want to see things > change for the better. You're also not confrontational in person. I > have no problem with you coming along. > > > Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 22:53:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB1C106566C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 22:53:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73478FC0C; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 22:53:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from JRE-MBP-2.local (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q71MrAOc086299 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <5019B351.7040600@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:53:05 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arnaud Lacombe References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:53:12 -0000 On 8/1/12 12:45 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > As for the mbuf meeting, all I can find from it online is: > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-June/012629.html actually nothing has happenned on this yet that I know of, which is why there has been no action to see. We all agree that it is an item to put on our agenda but until there is someone who gets the free time it's just a "sanctioned priority item" > > which is not worth much... Rather than doing things internally, maybe > it is time to open up... oh, wait, you will certainly come to the > community with a design plan, figure out it's not gonna work while > doing the implementation, change the design plan while implementing, > go public with a +3k/-2k loc change patch, ask for benediction, go > ahead and commit it up until someone comes with an obvious design flaw > which would render the change pretty much useless, but there will be > man-month of work to fix it, so it's never gonna be done. > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 1 23:28:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3441065674 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-gh0-f182.google.com (mail-gh0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4167F8FC15 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:28:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghbz22 with SMTP id z22so9268112ghb.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=MKW5GhBiDKDxHkrPmShwljmSH03RkF/AKt8d+8srCvA=; b=GlhSc5CZgDcpuZAHTONh6/2jSJ9WK05mU6Z3nftgvrcx3FWlBXOZiON0u1NsRH9KSU pT9eWhyWrqbmOHqhKowp2WwYvFvFvmSYHM32al167lmqFybPNQNJU6wVqFeLXW9qw5bD V/x8DsWVa8dGnUoF1uMyrRPCIIvy6JFTxM6dkfltlOzEZl3bb+JhVfwYzggITT/YTMVt pNZa+9Dq7j/IUWER/WvGKKRECB2gXr5AwGvxCAIgtmMLX1EGsdzfgP6mOXklw72CfuXJ yQaB8bFojmklOFBVbTEpueCiUMMoStDLiVfxb5CYCE2U58YYHwN4ZP6TagKmWB11d7b9 wqHA== Received: by 10.50.222.137 with SMTP id qm9mr6972435igc.64.1343863716867; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.63] (50-78-194-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.78.194.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dk7sm8367437igb.10.2012.08.01.16.28.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:28:33 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> References: To: Arnaud Lacombe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnM2R1iwI8NmHY0MSeXRHFEp1sk4gFia2ybXk2m84tMk+a6GulOjOygF+Y3PrMf0B7Aw6wr Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 23:28:38 -0000 On Aug 1, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Chadd = wrote: >> Any interested party is very welcome to approach a developer and get >> added to the developer summits. Plenty of the people at the most >> recent developer summit weren't @freebsd.org committers - we had >> plenty of representation from companies using FreeBSD. >>=20 >> If you want to participate, just ask a friendly developer who is = going >> to the developer summit to sponsor you in going. You're pleasant in >> person, so I'd have no problem sponsoring you if I am going to an >> event. :) >>=20 > I have a very deep, quasi-philosophical, trouble/problem with that > whole idea of sponsor-requirement to attend a such meeting. There is > just something which does not feel right about it. =46rom my point of > view, this is a matter of common sense, focus is gonna be very narrow > and deeply technical. Attendee should go there only if they think they > will give positive feedback. As for myself, I would not attend a > developer meeting on the fiber-channel over infiniband optimization, > but would attend a developer meeting on next-generation mbuf. >=20 > Now, maybe I'll just push the door of some developer meeting I'd be > interested in during next BSDCan, and see what happen :-) The outcome > might be interesting to study in a social interaction, prisoner > dilemma related, point-of-view. Given how ridiculously easy it is to get a proper invite, there's not = need to be a jerk just to prove an obscure philosophical point about = attendance. There's plenty of time to do that over the technical points = being discussed. Warner > - Arnaud >=20 >> And/or, work with warner to get improvements into the tree and = someone >> will sponsor a commit bit for you. >>=20 >> Perhaps we as developers should more openly publish the results of >> developer summits. But as I said, they're not "closed" - they're just >> "invite only for non-developers." We're not going to exclude anyone >> from coming unless they really ARE going to just sit there and troll. >> You're motivated, you're enthusiastic and you want to see things >> change for the better. You're also not confrontational in person. I >> have no problem with you coming along. >>=20 >>=20 >> Adrian > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 01:06:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F52106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 01:06:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0E98FC0C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 01:06:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by weyx56 with SMTP id x56so6703180wey.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 18:06:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0XyXGYMfRd0Kt/DmK/nl97hty1wlsMpsFs9pdgveGO8=; b=Vccd9D5IeK+BGL7prkdYbS+WxjQPSIA3fWEybKE8AgsaJgFv73fq/rUHefRFqKy6FD L+ktxqDNlnyGJ6uIgU66dPK7rH3c9kv3yFGrZy69BTMuxbcfatvPQoyXhrfB6tOTAr/h RMDM8kVEd+RQ3q5jQQHh1YPVpBjDhKjS35kTY6ODl8TCylcEAimeTcgkenlGNxoWhmP5 xm5MeJxJwJVWGpQmFzNCk8QW13hNdKtdDWdZfmYYUNrKPUHudd+5a7hpWRWQmOGG0KZb QZ/nX54d7kMQTkHieQBex3m55CQseXzU27AAhZDaUkx1LXTnKrlAjCZ0AIfuFQxAgh7x +odg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.241.137 with SMTP id g9mr8403603wer.122.1343869585153; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 18:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.60.147 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:06:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:06:25 -0700 Message-ID: From: Kevin Oberman To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 01:21:03 +0000 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 01:06:27 -0000 On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:39 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: >> Any interested party is very welcome to approach a developer and get >> added to the developer summits. Plenty of the people at the most >> recent developer summit weren't @freebsd.org committers - we had >> plenty of representation from companies using FreeBSD. >> >> If you want to participate, just ask a friendly developer who is going >> to the developer summit to sponsor you in going. You're pleasant in >> person, so I'd have no problem sponsoring you if I am going to an >> event. :) >> > I have a very deep, quasi-philosophical, trouble/problem with that > whole idea of sponsor-requirement to attend a such meeting. There is > just something which does not feel right about it. From my point of > view, this is a matter of common sense, focus is gonna be very narrow > and deeply technical. Attendee should go there only if they think they > will give positive feedback. As for myself, I would not attend a > developer meeting on the fiber-channel over infiniband optimization, > but would attend a developer meeting on next-generation mbuf. > > Now, maybe I'll just push the door of some developer meeting I'd be > interested in during next BSDCan, and see what happen :-) The outcome > might be interesting to study in a social interaction, prisoner > dilemma related, point-of-view. Arnaud, I suggest that you attend some Internet Engineering Task Force Working Group meetings. They are, by rule, open. There is no procedure for excluding anyone. While this may be open, it can be painfully wasteful of time as one person can tie up the entire meeting and ensure nothing is accomplished. It happens all too often and has resulted in working groups being shut down as they have no chance on reaching consensus. One person can't block consensus in theory. but he can tie up so much time that no actual work is done.This is one of the primary reasons I stopped attending IETF meetings as opposed to being active on WG mail lists where a lot of the real work is done and annoying messages can simply be ignored. For a much smaller endeavor, like FreeBSD, this is simply unacceptable as is a brainstorming type of meeting with too many people present. almost all really effective projects are done by one or two people and they need the input of a fairly small set of other concerned people to vet the work. This has worked well, if not perfectly, for FreeBSD and many other projects. It may not be perfect, but trying to accomplish something that comes under the heading of brainstorming in a truly open environment is a wonderful goal, but really is not efficient. And, no, I don't expect you to agree. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer E-mail: kob6558@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 02:13:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FCE106564A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:13:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr2867@pacbell.net) Received: from nm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 937E98FC08 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:13:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [98.139.44.100] by nm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.85] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:13:09 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1022.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:13:09 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 878861.29428.bm@omp1022.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 3643 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2012 02:13:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=W/4AVMuyNTgr0yewA4ws6IKrgmR1xDByhB0GeJMz6wH7GDWJhbEfc+eJ5RwxqvfcC8aeQBdvUGG9IRsleM1O1eJPjDJ9mGfTtr2bYE9UiEaCn3nXt09ACfggZqAdcGr+shWlbogeQzvQB/8xwISmrHB5uHUs1G8nlQAFVKvuUlg= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pacbell.net; s=s1024; t=1343873589; bh=Bb/Qad3w8c1RMJnFObFcpbupRDKVg8p+PeHS0HFKIA0=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nVuUe1tHkdfYYlQ//dnQsCGxie3adr4OOL/teBxNQEQtw48GCHzmrbugwRO5gjk2sQVBVjUcCQhkRa6DDJpKv6Mb87bwjTQqL3YanoUy+JoK489a8FddeNhD+UJt/AinHgJzYcNUr7z0thU04Gn36XUF7cfn2QmlXd2K0jse/EQ= X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: buo_F5YVM1nBnK0P8ZE5Gsp3L6GE8d5CpZBNRbJJsrA_20r l0jETVcclyOxuMRDxzaZf9W1n9ahr4awhpRsD183Pvo6kgz7.SzQadQ2bpbm pst6dD8Id18OPzZZJ2_j_2o2NjJAAYj_9e3.QSM8norqrCIYT60gR0OvSrHN w_G_Q5AlqNQIjGPEPFtnSbRCBv2rAS2eaPwfYyxBkMIXvju2Ow.QsAx0Q2ov KNLObO8.bMcA0g5Cyh9Tl7OjBiPMuPcbhtSxtN_FKUipAWb7xoWHi0Zm9Q__ zCsuA9jd5Dsl7lzipH26N_DKqfUQH1OKS0DVz.D.d0siZFoYEXizHstf0qOJ 5UrizMWIpEnrFzdGhTVl__vVVLg.n3Dz1EnGhg_qKTEeI0Uy6HKgjtcEZjL4 eam8DQxbKC4ugS5JXlTimVHl5RqdYd6tGx48YYC3k7u1qxUyo1gCCtcMwrA- - X-Yahoo-SMTP: buatFJCswBBKMen3cE6LLkyZyMucfar_EwzGZnarmQ-- Received: from [192.168.0.98] (dr2867@99.20.134.213 with plain) by smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 01 Aug 2012 19:13:09 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <5019E209.50109@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:12:25 -0700 From: Daniel Rudy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120715 Firefox/14.0.1 SeaMonkey/2.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Enumerating sleeping threads X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:13:15 -0000 Hello, What is the best way to enumerate the sleeping threads via sleepqueue(9)? Furthermore, when enumerating the threads that are on the run queue, what locks are needed, if any? Thank you. -- Daniel Rudy From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 02:25:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C421065673 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:25:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listlog2011@gmail.com) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D9B8FC0C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:25:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q722P7PJ046977; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:25:07 GMT (envelope-from listlog2011@gmail.com) Message-ID: <5019E500.8060105@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:25:04 +0800 From: David Xu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Rudy References: <5019E209.50109@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <5019E209.50109@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Enumerating sleeping threads X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: davidxu@freebsd.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:25:09 -0000 On 2012/8/2 10:12, Daniel Rudy wrote: > Hello, > > What is the best way to enumerate the sleeping threads via > sleepqueue(9)? Furthermore, when enumerating the threads that are on > the run queue, what locks are needed, if any? sleepqueue hash bucket is private data structure in subr_sleepqueue.c, I think you can not access it outside of the file. One way to enumerate the sleeping threads is iterating all threads in the system, and check their states. proc.h contains two macros: FOREACH_PROC_IN_SYSTEM FOREACH_THREAD_IN_PROC To access thread state, you should use thread lock, call thread_lock() and thread_unlock(). thread lock is not fixed, it might be sleep-queue's spinlock or per-cpu runqueue lock, there even is a blocked spin-lock for intermediate state change. > Thank you. > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 02:31:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A281065678 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr2867@pacbell.net) Received: from nm2-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm2-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.39]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F01238FC18 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:31:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [98.138.90.52] by nm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:31:18 -0000 Received: from [68.142.200.226] by tm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:31:18 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.111] by t7.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:31:18 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2012 02:31:18 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 173278.23313.bm@omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 41312 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Aug 2012 02:31:17 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pacbell.net; s=s1024; t=1343874677; bh=d/f1sYZzLocarLWpoWV1PngT+hYNrpb8lOrG8xLwois=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=P7cIPQOv0kJjU/JvYnoW4QsEZaiv2Y7m6/6+1iyEWlXNbEWaJhmYWYQvSyxIG3NTWAGiZfMn3xkLmT/FlloAtilJVKF6T9OuHdxLe17W0oxAjrtVo+LfjjNW5iKPOSSoYXxMwGsrsEhTFuXKzNi6333DzcDTGATiqDCPdegY10U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=J4cVfGAC/8hkz6cUNjdrSbyBVdtEGOOFhVnXuQJ7PokNFys5TQDbTf1rwnm1k4+9tVTlp5jViO0bhnPUH6NJ7dhtmDzMSpg6KuosYekJpwUveBCPfD8HVNOINGhr5fc8XXTk+wMeSD6K3nGfFJkOUhIpngaOWKB/Kqyaej4jTq0=; X-YMail-OSG: zqsxanwVM1lDCyqyz9a5JnOFL7mrhebsPwM0zMGGy9z9B7y 3i0djUf7fZugTNhOeydm3bK2Fw_5pucfjy9KH.RfKCMhgIDEisu3kYoG460r 5qNlL._sTscRjHfg24zVp2AMtR9kuu3XM3SbUfRg.ijzpE7dMCs9DSs_UaPo UgYqNcGvN2x74xtiRx29Ke0A4d7qFWhFySknC85UgIubersyT0z_B0HsDVmJ 1L9WKUzvE6yaSqjdVLa78CQaojjkFYI7OJRMAMKBZGXHybR8Yi9yM6_nHUTh 9zax6EblNAUtnYHrLsuf02Q83yd_YZB7zP8cZp.uj751bcVmprxOvOlJbYEl 2RjO_DeuAJG.Pewat1IJPmiKLjLp_BfiYxRuPEL8kGmHtAdlTga7onK0xzFy ylweZONH21ha9pPR_YphKWYJxS_6O6Pe0jJQUcBqGsR4udXgPpJ9prF56qBM w7Z72VNCOdzxQORIl7p7CsX7UEiXUkzxrE8OtIFLpw6It7ftPq3zYMT.EsPo DozqHSe1dxNjsC0fUBw-- Received: from [99.20.134.213] by web182206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:31:17 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 Message-ID: <1343874677.32627.YahooMailClassic@web182206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:31:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Rudy To: davidxu@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <5019E500.8060105@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Enumerating sleeping threads X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:31:25 -0000 --- On Wed, 8/1/12, David Xu wrote: From: David Xu Subject: Re: Enumerating sleeping threads To: "Daniel Rudy" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 7:25 PM On 2012/8/2 10:12, Daniel Rudy wrote: > Hello, >=20 > What is the best way to enumerate the sleeping threads via > sleepqueue(9)?=A0 Furthermore, when enumerating the threads that are on > the run queue, what locks are needed, if any? sleepqueue hash bucket is private data structure in subr_sleepqueue.c, I th= ink you can not access it outside of the file. One way to enumerate the sleeping threads is iterating all threads in the s= ystem, and check their states.=A0 proc.h contains two macros: FOREACH_PROC_IN_SYSTEM FOREACH_THREAD_IN_PROC To access thread state, you should use thread lock,=A0 call thread_lock() and thread_unlock(). thread lock is not fixed, it might be sleep-queue's sp= inlock or per-cpu runqueue lock, there even is a blocked spin-lock for intermediat= e state change. > Thank you. >=20 The problem is that I want to avoid using proc.h in this.=A0 I'm considerin= g adding a function to subr_sleepqueue.c to export the data structures, or = at least export a PID list.=A0 The reason why I am doing it this way is sec= urity related.=A0=20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 03:28:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5758C106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:28:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lacombar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B6C8FC0A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:28:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so6126039laa.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:28:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=2B0/LZCDUKZmxIX2pIRzopczXH20MQLHPyVQSC5lwv4=; b=tQ2RvOnEtuCZ9uTzuxK7/O7lAXBkxVtezpFq6oDV4Htz2cjFeVf0X9o0o9uNg3M7eK DBvKN0rCCRfvFB5bmcbyIKrfCqI4S9zsKzoWiGoSJlqAXtmJknF33OjpG8gqVbL1dZ0w noK1bsvlUtDSUyyzaSf+oAxLGdQTlsMzWpdXXp2rPgP63VRo/bkVfluLWhcJzQ8veS1Q baAixxMOTUsvdPRh2v4wPIRWZ4ARJy6wzH1c6uhmoq2imnOiXYAFad/wvekKSG157hab +Yi7xZtg2d3jKXoX/xSzs/0nmfPwQfimVxouVw7AQ5EEZw7+MOIwCD712vgu8zN/0tH7 kr6w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.17.227 with SMTP id r3mr8906246lbd.41.1343878112540; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.24.133 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:28:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:28:32 -0400 Message-ID: From: Arnaud Lacombe To: Warner Losh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 03:28:35 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Aug 1, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: >>> Any interested party is very welcome to approach a developer and get >>> added to the developer summits. Plenty of the people at the most >>> recent developer summit weren't @freebsd.org committers - we had >>> plenty of representation from companies using FreeBSD. >>> >>> If you want to participate, just ask a friendly developer who is going >>> to the developer summit to sponsor you in going. You're pleasant in >>> person, so I'd have no problem sponsoring you if I am going to an >>> event. :) >>> >> I have a very deep, quasi-philosophical, trouble/problem with that >> whole idea of sponsor-requirement to attend a such meeting. There is >> just something which does not feel right about it. From my point of >> view, this is a matter of common sense, focus is gonna be very narrow >> and deeply technical. Attendee should go there only if they think they >> will give positive feedback. As for myself, I would not attend a >> developer meeting on the fiber-channel over infiniband optimization, >> but would attend a developer meeting on next-generation mbuf. >> >> Now, maybe I'll just push the door of some developer meeting I'd be >> interested in during next BSDCan, and see what happen :-) The outcome >> might be interesting to study in a social interaction, prisoner >> dilemma related, point-of-view. > > Given how ridiculously easy it is to get a proper invite, there's not need to be a jerk just to prove an obscure philosophical point about attendance. There's plenty of time to do that over the technical points being discussed. > Let me explain my thoughts: I do not recognize the committers legitimacy to give such invite, and to some extend, I do not recognize committers self-given legitimacy altogether. This do not mean I'd praised a structure-less project; quite the opposite actually. Starting from that, I will certainly not defer to anybody to request such invite or commit bit. Feel free to kick me out of the meeting room if you want to; I would have proved my point. Now, if invites are so easy to get, just get rid of it. It's a worthless, cumbersome item. - Arnaud ps: please, do not get me wrong, I would apply this policy to anybody who propose to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 03:36:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC111065677 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:36:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-gh0-f182.google.com (mail-gh0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91738FC17 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:36:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghbz22 with SMTP id z22so9509453ghb.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=8i/dK6GMZ9vN7Bo+8+npg8P/zkBZG3yi9X0+jsmtaeg=; b=bEHM2O++1b4KDz3QWHV4K6UiCnqLj8UvBukhBqXZtE5Xui9LdpzeHd+o8DMpoCMpVg oKUcyXAhxAbGaF8E9dhc9SsKYSkc77ETwMu6HMuVh9Wopb9aF3B+aZ+2XnGMd1oWzq2a vITr7rfwPeuuZlEtSb0QQsxOeQAUbIk9JkhVVa0P19v1zBLfmDscnydqP59lIZoZoFJ+ aCFhF0shsxcS1bJM3CTWEaqEHFOZHCswnSHnsS2lxaFiwUijwWUAYaT/sxhf318GR+Ud englf7EgAq7tuEagD+0xvBAkK1T0DyWSSO9+xkNx1vpAN4Idw/bmCB9t9gmdJmcyBIMv b82Q== Received: by 10.50.169.73 with SMTP id ac9mr810396igc.29.1343878596277; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.63] (50-78-194-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.78.194.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z3sm14637588igc.7.2012.08.01.20.36.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:36:26 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> To: Arnaud Lacombe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlHIS04n71Uo2FX6hYfzDtKX95JFgWMdOBDbkYNt39Bkoa0bJ0c3P38BvesspVqR2qSiQ7w Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 03:36:37 -0000 On Aug 1, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >>=20 >> On Aug 1, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Chadd = wrote: >>>> Any interested party is very welcome to approach a developer and = get >>>> added to the developer summits. Plenty of the people at the most >>>> recent developer summit weren't @freebsd.org committers - we had >>>> plenty of representation from companies using FreeBSD. >>>>=20 >>>> If you want to participate, just ask a friendly developer who is = going >>>> to the developer summit to sponsor you in going. You're pleasant in >>>> person, so I'd have no problem sponsoring you if I am going to an >>>> event. :) >>>>=20 >>> I have a very deep, quasi-philosophical, trouble/problem with that >>> whole idea of sponsor-requirement to attend a such meeting. There is >>> just something which does not feel right about it. =46rom my point = of >>> view, this is a matter of common sense, focus is gonna be very = narrow >>> and deeply technical. Attendee should go there only if they think = they >>> will give positive feedback. As for myself, I would not attend a >>> developer meeting on the fiber-channel over infiniband optimization, >>> but would attend a developer meeting on next-generation mbuf. >>>=20 >>> Now, maybe I'll just push the door of some developer meeting I'd be >>> interested in during next BSDCan, and see what happen :-) The = outcome >>> might be interesting to study in a social interaction, prisoner >>> dilemma related, point-of-view. >>=20 >> Given how ridiculously easy it is to get a proper invite, there's not = need to be a jerk just to prove an obscure philosophical point about = attendance. There's plenty of time to do that over the technical points = being discussed. >>=20 > Let me explain my thoughts: I do not recognize the committers > legitimacy to give such invite, and to some extend, I do not recognize > committers self-given legitimacy altogether. This do not mean I'd > praised a structure-less project; quite the opposite actually. > Starting from that, I will certainly not defer to anybody to request > such invite or commit bit. Feel free to kick me out of the meeting > room if you want to; I would have proved my point. I think this proves the point everybody has been saying: you are being = needlessly contrary and confrontational. Warner > Now, if invites are so easy to get, just get rid of it. It's a > worthless, cumbersome item. >=20 > - Arnaud >=20 > ps: please, do not get me wrong, I would apply this policy to anybody > who propose to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 03:43:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717BC106566C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:43:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F268FC12; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:43:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q723h2jg030411; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q723h2kN030410; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:43:02 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Warner Losh Message-ID: <20120802034302.GA30400@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:15:05 +0000 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 03:43:09 -0000 On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 09:36:26PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > I think this proves the point everybody has been saying: you > are being needlessly contrary and confrontational. > Yep. In 18+ years of being subscribed to various freebsd lists, Arnaud has the honor of being only the 2nd person to earn a killfile entry. He's now sitting next to Jesus Monroy, Jr. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 04:30:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25108106566C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 04:30:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B05A14DB9A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 04:30:17 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:30:16 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:30:18 -0000 On 8/1/2012 8:36 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > I think this proves the point everybody has been saying: you are being needlessly contrary and confrontational. Actually if you take a step back and look at what Arnaud is saying objectively, he's right. If anyone can attend the meeting by simply getting an invitation from a committer, the only purpose the invitation serves is to force the mere-mortal user to kiss someone's ring. That's precisely the kind of elitist crap that I've been railing against for so many years now. OTOH, currently the dev summits generally take place with limited resources, so it's not really possible to have "everyone" attend. And (TMK) the "invitation" process is really more like a restaurant with a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." But on the _other_ other hand, the problem of things being discussed and/or decisions being taken exclusively at the dev summits, especially BSDCAN, has gotten quite bad over the last several years. Even amongst committers, the community has become divided between the "haves" who can travel to the summit, and the "have nots" who can't. Note, I'm quite sure that this statement will be met with howls of protest, from the "haves," that this isn't the case. Even if they were sincere, it's incredibly easy for the people with the privileges to see their privileged state as "normal," and lose sight of how the world looks from the cheap seats. In spite of Kevin's concerns (and I don't know what working groups he's been attending) the IETF model is really a good one to examine here. The majority of the work gets done on the mailing lists, with working group meetings serving as an opportunity for group discussion, presentations, etc. The results of the meetings are then published to the mailing list in the form of minutes, and the final decisions are made in public, on the lists. Another incredibly important feature, the meetings are open to remote participation in the sense that slide decks are published in advance, the meeting audio is streamed live, and there are jabber rooms for remote participants to interact with the people in the meeting. I used to ask the PTB to provide *some* form of remote participation for even a fraction of the events at the dev summit. I don't bother asking anymore because year after year my requests were met with any of: indifference, hostility, shrugged shoulders (that's a hard problem that we can't solve), or embarrassment. Since if the right people around here want something to happen, it happens; I finally came to the conclusion that they didn't want remote participation to happen, so it won't. That's a shame. If the only large, open project you've ever participated in is FreeBSD, what gets done around here feels "normal" to you. But don't be so quick to dismiss the viewpoints of people who have experience in the wider world. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 06:10:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AA3106564A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 06:10:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C4E8FC08 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 06:10:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q726A4gM002750; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:10:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q726A4UJ002747; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:10:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:10:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Steve Kargl In-Reply-To: <20120802034302.GA30400@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Message-ID: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <20120802034302.GA30400@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 08:10:04 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Adrian Chadd , FreeBSD Hackers , attilio@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 06:10:19 -0000 >> > > Yep. In 18+ years of being subscribed to various freebsd > lists, Arnaud has the honor of being only the 2nd person > to earn a killfile entry. He's now sitting next to Jesus > Monroy, Jr. it is not a proud from you to talk about who you are blocking. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 11:30:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B1C106566C for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:30:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from psychosensor@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f54.google.com (mail-yw0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C188FC17 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:30:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yhfs35 with SMTP id s35so10000382yhf.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:30:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1M956bNYi5m7iGoQQ/PTVRusmhv14oHXE/t1NJlamm0=; b=j3zhw4P6d7gwGrjJ28FuCgFFHU1iyp5m+sV5Ppkvg9h6WZ9yJ7SElRLSZr4DZvUQa5 R+tLOak0xfWtrneGkzJ3v5B+pNK1tiWVMI6F4WvvfcfuXHUF6HE5jtEZwTON2cXnleD8 7kN132aUQw0bq00s66ZYKSV+DZKOeUGtGfDsFVPiF4rW/+z0rHu81kcbt3OAVeAQzsEi V9eMkr1a9/hZjlOpMVIl6Il0TpnoXmHJO7BEgJjvg4dE3XaSe13PVWzSFH8jTgP4x/f2 qdnhwECjdU05+Et9tTm8l5xjC+KSgFC9m5CbUEmRReOCBj8EgGmC5MXrSioNVxIyaa3P 0e8Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.138.138 with SMTP id a10mr19844792yhj.39.1343907014417; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 04:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.212.9 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 04:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:30:14 +0300 Message-ID: From: Sergey Listopad To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: How to debug loader(8) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:30:16 -0000 Hi. I have as issue with booting FreeBSD on retro server. loader(8) stuck during the boot (more details http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?CAO_2TxM4_7YpPV9iTXeX6S7w4T1zqiZJa0ewe5KKiusdmNiVnw) How can I debug why loader(8) is stuck. What information may be helpful? Thanks. -- S.Listopad From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 06:23:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EB0106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 06:23:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69838FC0A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 06:23:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by weyx56 with SMTP id x56so6840310wey.13 for ; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 23:23:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=GN9KYOawEBRyPlbPdBv5v2LEG7AGsqV/nuqhkTQY9S4=; b=fEFf9N6bETnBIsCTk4E1YYe96S4shEYhvIcEMWA5B2MqLfRiB96UG/9riR89jQJ9T3 wo4Yp7/U2kJ/Mx1jidvB9ihoj9xDFVr5rPP2d5UOIYFMLV58QrS9YknpVgBsmfjBkZHC giFaESenfweAoFa5O8JIzsOOwWyjlXy3EUZFG18bca27a7tv1SfMjQlgRTOKEpBVr+kP OhW0jU90iK1dj/CEZ57sONCXAJ8xNT1rMGvbpCYYvKy+VUhS435W1sB3g4XirrsAjw/Y uKoMvOtJO0lbbIkwOgaTkO/IZiHizYahmGlUOesYaMgaA1AZ1KOVYvkDo6X+P2x5yRMh FrOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.78.99 with SMTP id a3mr1891948wix.15.1343888637682; Wed, 01 Aug 2012 23:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.60.147 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:23:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:23:57 -0700 Message-ID: From: Kevin Oberman To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:36:00 +0000 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 06:23:59 -0000 On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 9:30 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 8/1/2012 8:36 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> I think this proves the point everybody has been saying: you are being needlessly contrary and confrontational. > > Actually if you take a step back and look at what Arnaud is saying > objectively, he's right. If anyone can attend the meeting by simply > getting an invitation from a committer, the only purpose the invitation > serves is to force the mere-mortal user to kiss someone's ring. That's > precisely the kind of elitist crap that I've been railing against for so > many years now. > > OTOH, currently the dev summits generally take place with limited > resources, so it's not really possible to have "everyone" attend. And > (TMK) the "invitation" process is really more like a restaurant with a > sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." > > But on the _other_ other hand, the problem of things being discussed > and/or decisions being taken exclusively at the dev summits, especially > BSDCAN, has gotten quite bad over the last several years. Even amongst > committers, the community has become divided between the "haves" who can > travel to the summit, and the "have nots" who can't. Note, I'm quite > sure that this statement will be met with howls of protest, from the > "haves," that this isn't the case. Even if they were sincere, it's > incredibly easy for the people with the privileges to see their > privileged state as "normal," and lose sight of how the world looks from > the cheap seats. > > In spite of Kevin's concerns (and I don't know what working groups he's > been attending) the IETF model is really a good one to examine here. The > majority of the work gets done on the mailing lists, with working group > meetings serving as an opportunity for group discussion, presentations, > etc. The results of the meetings are then published to the mailing list > in the form of minutes, and the final decisions are made in public, on > the lists. Another incredibly important feature, the meetings are open > to remote participation in the sense that slide decks are published in > advance, the meeting audio is streamed live, and there are jabber rooms > for remote participants to interact with the people in the meeting. > > I used to ask the PTB to provide *some* form of remote participation for > even a fraction of the events at the dev summit. I don't bother asking > anymore because year after year my requests were met with any of: > indifference, hostility, shrugged shoulders (that's a hard problem that > we can't solve), or embarrassment. Since if the right people around here > want something to happen, it happens; I finally came to the conclusion > that they didn't want remote participation to happen, so it won't. > That's a shame. > > If the only large, open project you've ever participated in is FreeBSD, > what gets done around here feels "normal" to you. But don't be so quick > to dismiss the viewpoints of people who have experience in the wider world. > > Doug Doug makes some good points. The lack of any opportunity for remote participation in this day and age seems quite odd. Almost all conferences of more that half a dozen people are available remotely, at least for observers. Some are set up for full remote participation including presentations, questions (via chat) and voting/polling. It is surprising to me that something is not available for significant FreeBSD meetings. By the way, WGs that gave me major issues were SNMP and DNS. SNMP was dissolved and the DNS group finally accomplished its job about two years later than it should have by scheduling meetings, still open, outside of IETF meetings and thanks to the stubborn determination of Randy Bush. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer E-mail: kob6558@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 12:54:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95330106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:54:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@theravensnest.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575A98FC22; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:54:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk (c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.18.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72Csbic078991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:54:38 GMT (envelope-from theraven@theravensnest.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:54:35 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 12:58:29 +0000 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 12:54:49 -0000 On 2 Aug 2012, at 05:30, Doug Barton wrote: > I used to ask the PTB to provide *some* form of remote participation = for > even a fraction of the events at the dev summit. I don't bother asking > anymore because year after year my requests were met with any of: > indifference, hostility, shrugged shoulders (that's a hard problem = that > we can't solve), or embarrassment. Since if the right people around = here > want something to happen, it happens; I finally came to the conclusion > that they didn't want remote participation to happen, so it won't. > That's a shame. You haven't asked for this for the Cambridge DevSummit, but others have = and so we have arranged for cameras and microphones to be available for = two of the sessions (the DocSummit and the ARM working group) to allow = those who can not attend in person for various reasons to participate. =20= I don't know how useful it will be (hopefully everything will work, but = my experience with video conferencing is that it stops working as soon = as you try to do something important with it), but there is certainly no = active attempt to exclude people who can't attend. =20 After each DevSummit, the results seem to appear on the wiki quite = promptly - often during the sessions. At BSDCan this year, two of the = working groups that I attended used OpenEtherPad to take minutes, so = they were available in real time for non-attendees and people outside of = the room were able to add things to them. There are usually people in = the room on IRC as well, who are willing to relay things from people = outside. David= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 13:50:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99FB1065672 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:50:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrey@zonov.org) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E15B8FC19 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:50:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so6443587laa.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 06:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=TWx1HPRmRFWLwllNiENC4aR9LhxN2IORhFZgFq7rti4=; b=HwoDz+R1r+xz1PmE82aEuJDv+c26KSi5MkAayWw7yoHXrqzxEeC2qAKC9JXODHi+/z cl4WeGmWmMAhMbRdQ+WCylmBx0wLMKlxRi7eWv/Igby6R3ZeAP4ec/a26YFTai3x/Gcg p348yexv7K4YrTNYzPzx9cJU5uQJl3p0jXrk6w3eULCiAeVj+uZzcTopOGzRTf91ErqC t3OCJicLrsoseb/R5mrsVcHpkO2WyCv2kZ8FDhGsSbSVXtHI+Eig2JcLvdiqs0bQyXdF xyCWmiThfEuHEWf9kF5CBIQuL2UYWBUY/+tWVPSG++AfyRq3WUA8b0ipej1/b8LJMw5A aezg== Received: by 10.112.103.135 with SMTP id fw7mr9654747lbb.25.1343915427794; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 06:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp170-243-red.yandex.net (dhcp170-243-red.yandex.net. [95.108.170.243]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id er3sm1435679lbb.16.2012.08.02.06.50.26 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 06:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <501A85A1.3050106@zonov.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:50:25 +0400 From: Andrey Zonov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010908040304050808020602" X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQms1F/o1JJUvQc6JfRmBJnEHs+Nu3VwnS8XtdrUaCnGeUb0DYz+wPPycc4lGbhbl+o7/9Qg Subject: system wide major/minor page faults counters X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:50:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010908040304050808020602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, It would be useful to have system wide major and minor page faults counters. Attached patch makes this possible. Are there any objections to have it? -- Andrey Zonov --------------010908040304050808020602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; x-mac-type="0"; x-mac-creator="0"; name="page_faults.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="page_faults.patch" SW5kZXg6IHVzci5iaW4vdm1zdGF0L3Ztc3RhdC5jCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KLS0tIHVzci5i aW4vdm1zdGF0L3Ztc3RhdC5jCShyZXZpc2lvbiAyMzg3MzgpCisrKyB1c3IuYmluL3Ztc3Rh dC92bXN0YXQuYwkod29ya2luZyBjb3B5KQpAQCAtNDczLDYgKzQ3Myw4IEBAIGZpbGxfdm1t ZXRlcihzdHJ1Y3Qgdm1tZXRlciAqdm1tcCkKIAkJCUFERF9GUk9NX1BDUFUoaSwgdl9jb3df b3B0aW0pOwogCQkJQUREX0ZST01fUENQVShpLCB2X3pmb2QpOwogCQkJQUREX0ZST01fUENQ VShpLCB2X296Zm9kKTsKKwkJCUFERF9GUk9NX1BDUFUoaSwgdl9tYWpmbHQpOworCQkJQURE X0ZST01fUENQVShpLCB2X21pbmZsdCk7CiAJCQlBRERfRlJPTV9QQ1BVKGksIHZfc3dhcGlu KTsKIAkJCUFERF9GUk9NX1BDUFUoaSwgdl9zd2Fwb3V0KTsKIAkJCUFERF9GUk9NX1BDUFUo 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ae@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501C214DA8C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:55:12 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501A86BC.9060606@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:55:08 +0400 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:10.0.3) Gecko/20120406 Thunderbird/10.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sergey Listopad References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: id=10C8A17A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to debug loader(8) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:55:29 -0000 On 02.08.2012 15:30, Sergey Listopad wrote: > Hi. > > I have as issue with booting FreeBSD on retro server. > loader(8) stuck during the boot (more details > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?CAO_2TxM4_7YpPV9iTXeX6S7w4T1zqiZJa0ewe5KKiusdmNiVnw) > > How can I debug why loader(8) is stuck. What information may be helpful? Hi. It seems that biosdisk driver can't detect any disks except floppy. You can add some printfs to the bd_init() and bd_int13probe() functions in the sys/boot/i386/libi386/biosdisk.c file. Then recompile the loader and test. Also you can try to use grub loader, afaik it has a bit more quirks to the known problems. If it will work, we can try to fix our loader too. -- WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 14:22:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E981065739 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:22:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E53E8FC1C for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:22:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q72EN0CT082620; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:23:00 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72EMmbW083097; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:22:48 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q72EMmX4083096; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:22:48 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:22:48 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Andrey Zonov Message-ID: <20120802142248.GY2676@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <501A85A1.3050106@zonov.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="v/49yhf2B++JedBI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <501A85A1.3050106@zonov.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: system wide major/minor page faults counters X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 14:22:56 -0000 --v/49yhf2B++JedBI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 05:50:25PM +0400, Andrey Zonov wrote: > Hi, >=20 > It would be useful to have system wide major and minor page faults=20 > counters. Attached patch makes this possible. >=20 > Are there any objections to have it? I thought that struct vmmeter was engraved into our ABI much deeper, but inspection shows that at least base system successfully avoids dragging the structure into ABI at all. So what follows is only some comments and not objections. The description of v_majflt as 'page faults' and v_minflt as 'page reclaim' is very confusing, IMO. First, the v_majflt is not inclusive in regard of v_minflt. Second, reclaim usually has a connotation of thing being repurposed (I am probably wrong there), which is not case for minor page faults. As an additional twist, please note that not all page faults reach vm_fault_hold() at all. See for instance x86 handling of the spurious page faults, I believe that other architectures like MIPS also completely consume some page faults in MD code. The minfault counter probably should be incremented there too. And, not all calls to vm_fault_hold() are caused by hardware page faults. See the use of vm_fault_hold() and vm_fault_quick_hold_pages() scattered around the sys/. --v/49yhf2B++JedBI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlAajTgACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4iq0QCfZWYDDEbz/exhrtcNLV2GenOu F2wAnA4WRg+h03J1D7vQCF8CZjuBhcNs =mT/I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --v/49yhf2B++JedBI-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 16:37:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3C8106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:37:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBFF14E2EC; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:37:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501AACB5.5020004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:37:09 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Long References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe , Kevin Oberman Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:37:10 -0000 On 08/02/2012 09:20, Scott Long wrote: > > On Aug 2, 2012, at 12:23 AM, Kevin Oberman > wrote: > >> Doug makes some good points. > > No, he doesn't. Yes I do! (So there) > He and Arnould being argumentative and accusatory > where none of that is warranted. > > I used to run the devsummits, and we did tele-conference lines for > remote people to participate. I singled out BSDCAN specifically since that's "where the action is" for the last several years. I do recall your efforts in this regard, but it so happened that I was able to attend most of them in person back then. No slight towards what you did was intended. > After I stepped down, others took it > up and did the same thing. Usually, the lines were unused. I > suspect that organizers simply stopped thinking about them after a > while because of poor interest. There is no conspiracy of exclusion > here, just simple human apathy. Here I have to disagree with you. Once again, speaking specifically about BSDCAN dev summits, I repeatedly asked the organizers to provide some sort of audio stream (phone, Internet, anything) and was repeatedly told it wasn't possible. This was not a case of lack of interest. This was a case of "We understand that it is something people want, but it isn't going to happen." > The invite system for the devsummit was, and still is, purely about > providing some order to the process. It ensures that people > attending are willing to demonstrate a minimum amount of interest, > more than just wondering by a room one day and dropping in for free > food and wifi. I specifically made allowances for this issue in my post. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 16:20:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B7C106566C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:20:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39BD8FC0A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:20:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72GKYsL097114; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:20:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.0 \(1485\)) From: Scott Long In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:20:33 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> To: Kevin Oberman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1485) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.0 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on pooker.samsco.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:39:26 +0000 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Doug Barton , Arnaud Lacombe , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:20:39 -0000 On Aug 2, 2012, at 12:23 AM, Kevin Oberman wrote: > Doug makes some good points. No, he doesn't. He and Arnould being argumentative and accusatory where = none of that is warranted. I used to run the devsummits, and we did tele-conference lines for = remote people to participate. After I stepped down, others took it up = and did the same thing. Usually, the lines were unused. I suspect that = organizers simply stopped thinking about them after a while because of = poor interest. There is no conspiracy of exclusion here, just simple = human apathy. The invite system for the devsummit was, and still is, purely about = providing some order to the process. It ensures that people attending = are willing to demonstrate a minimum amount of interest, more than just = wondering by a room one day and dropping in for free food and wifi. If = anyone feels that they are being excluded, it's because they are too = lazy to go beyond being argumentative on a mailing list. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 16:44:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D741065674; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:44:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qc0-f182.google.com (mail-qc0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3A78FC14; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:44:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qcsg15 with SMTP id g15so6692052qcs.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:44:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=uOEMvAZkS+PqmVv7TP6y2wuWnkuhhO9G+niZC1tvaLA=; b=FXzKfbSpyNon91r6muY3McQ56+/Q+C245Z8yiaFBBP1R2HyfAs7+9u7vogb4LHhMV0 WleEvdJ/byyUwVz6VgOMEdHHwyUpzsc0cSq+9ykHJFWAGwI2i0Z3uWKiu3hTUpK7+ZUO fDcF5Qwpabv4Tbq/8/vFiSJKlgHMsz2q2ltcS+S7cYbvfAe0XlzRQdA1ZA4U7bfAFcFN m0TE0lX/t9+ApTiNZQt4qxKqbc7G4EGkJLlT4VtFxPKBG7QSUDrmrlps/FdqjNR6+pG1 JlUlGufz5JtUYNn6wxsv/yTY4Uel/WjUjFISPYXGsO/HLjQes8ymLHj4Kq86QmV4zivS mKvw== Received: by 10.60.30.35 with SMTP id p3mr38195405oeh.16.1343925881468; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m7sm4905767oef.1.2012.08.02.09.44.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 09:44:38 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> To: Scott Long X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: Doug Barton , FreeBSD Hackers , Kevin Oberman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:44:43 -0000 On Aug 2, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Scott Long wrote: >=20 > On Aug 2, 2012, at 12:23 AM, Kevin Oberman wrote: >=20 >> Doug makes some good points. >=20 > No, he doesn't. He and Arnould being argumentative and accusatory = where none of that is warranted. >=20 > I used to run the devsummits, and we did tele-conference lines for = remote people to participate. After I stepped down, others took it up = and did the same thing. Usually, the lines were unused. I suspect that = organizers simply stopped thinking about them after a while because of = poor interest. There is no conspiracy of exclusion here, just simple = human apathy. The "Watson/Losh connection" worked really well in BSDCan 2010 = :). Advertising the teleconferencing lines might be an issue (I = would have loved to have joined in some of the remote conferences, if = for nothing more than be a fly on the wall, this year), but that's a = separate thing aside. There's some misunderstanding, assumption, etc mixed together in = this mailing chain that I think is probably better resolved with some = face-to-face conversations or maybe just more rational (and less heated) = discussion. Thanks! -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 16:48:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85541065674; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:48:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C61A1508ED; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:46:42 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:46:42 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Chisnall References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:48:27 -0000 On 08/02/2012 05:54, David Chisnall wrote: > On 2 Aug 2012, at 05:30, Doug Barton wrote: > >> I used to ask the PTB to provide *some* form of remote >> participation for even a fraction of the events at the dev summit. >> I don't bother asking anymore because year after year my requests >> were met with any of: indifference, hostility, shrugged shoulders >> (that's a hard problem that we can't solve), or embarrassment. >> Since if the right people around here want something to happen, it >> happens; I finally came to the conclusion that they didn't want >> remote participation to happen, so it won't. That's a shame. > > You haven't asked for this for the Cambridge DevSummit, You did read the part where I gave up, right? > but others > have and so we have arranged for cameras and microphones to be > available for two of the sessions (the DocSummit and the ARM working > group) to allow those who can not attend in person for various > reasons to participate. Well that's a start. :) And where was this availability announced? If I missed it, that's on me. But providing remote access that you don't tell people about isn't really any better than not providing it at all. > I don't know how useful it will be (hopefully everything will work, > but my experience with video conferencing is that it stops working as > soon as you try to do something important with it), If I can offer some advice from the trenches ... focus on making the audio robust, and put efforts into the video as resources permit. The combination of solid audio, making presentations available on line, and a chat room (IRC, jabber, whatever) allows for a great deal of remote participation. Video is nice, but if the video going down takes the audio with it, you're no better off than when you started. > but there is > certainly no active attempt to exclude people who can't attend. ... and here is where I need to push back. "No active attempt to exclude people" is not the same thing as actively encouraging remote participation. It's the latter that we're after. > After each DevSummit, the results seem to appear on the wiki quite > promptly - often during the sessions. At BSDCan this year, two of > the working groups that I attended used OpenEtherPad to take minutes, > so they were available in real time for non-attendees and people > outside of the room were able to add things to them. There are > usually people in the room on IRC as well, who are willing to relay > things from people outside. Those all sound like nice steps forward, thank you for pointing them out. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong in this area. What would be nice I think would be if these steps were formalized, and shared more openly. Having things on the wiki is nice, but reporting things in detail on the mailing lists puts it in the archives for future reference, as well as making it more broadly available to start with. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 16:54:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACD010656B9; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:54:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFF614DD7F; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:53:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501AB08E.8020008@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:53:34 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garrett Cooper References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Scott Long , FreeBSD Hackers , Kevin Oberman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:54:28 -0000 On 08/02/2012 09:44, Garrett Cooper wrote: > > The "Watson/Losh connection" worked really well in BSDCan 2010 :). I wasn't going to mention that, since I didn't want to tell tales out of school. But the fact that remote participation actually was provided for "the right people," even though I was told repeatedly that it wasn't possible, actually highlights a big part of the problem. > Advertising the teleconferencing lines might be an issue (I would > have loved to have joined in some of the remote conferences, if for > nothing more than be a fly on the wall, this year), but that's a > separate thing aside. At various points when I was asking for remote participation at BSDCAN different people offered to provide this through their company's teleconferencing solutions, providing that the organizers could put a phone line in the room(s). They were told that it wasn't possible to do that. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:13:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6B9106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:13:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D70C8FC1A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:13:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk (c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.18.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72HD49s079836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:13:06 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:13:01 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:13:07 -0000 On 2 Aug 2012, at 17:46, Doug Barton wrote: > Well that's a start. :) And where was this availability announced? If = I > missed it, that's on me. But providing remote access that you don't = tell > people about isn't really any better than not providing it at all. It's not widely advertised, because we're likely to be able to support a = limited number of remote participants (10 seems like the upper limit for = the technology that we're looking at, and I wouldn't be surprised if it = degrades before then). As with all other things in the project, we = welcome people who are willing to make an effort to engage. We provide = it when people ask, not spontaneously, because organising cameras and = decent microphones requires effort on the bart of the organisers. We = only have one microphone available that will give good pickup over a = whole room, for example, so we can't offer remote participation in = parallel streams and we need to prioritise people who are willing to go = to the massive effort of sending a one-line email saying 'I would like = to make a contribution in this working group but am unable to attend'. =20= The FreeBSD Foundation has also offered to fund new contributors who = want to attend but are unable to afford to do so on their own. In spite = of the fact that I spent some effort encouraging people to apply for = this, only one person actually did. =20 We make a considerable effort to ensure that DevSummits are easy to = attend for anyone who wants to contribute to the projects. They are not = intended as spectator events, but for anyone who wishes to engage with = the community there are procedures in place for attending or = participating remotely. I have very little sympathy with people who = complain that the community isn't engaging with them, without making the = effort to engage with the community. =20 David From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:28:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C68106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:28:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A926614E51C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:28:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:28:32 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Chisnall References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:28:33 -0000 On 08/02/2012 10:13, David Chisnall wrote: > On 2 Aug 2012, at 17:46, Doug Barton wrote: > >> Well that's a start. :) And where was this availability announced? >> If I missed it, that's on me. But providing remote access that you >> don't tell people about isn't really any better than not providing >> it at all. > > It's not widely advertised, because we're likely to be able to > support a limited number of remote participants (10 seems like the > upper limit for the technology that we're looking at, and I wouldn't > be surprised if it degrades before then). Welcome to the 21st Century. :) There are widely available audio and video conferencing solutions that easily scale into the thousands of users, at minimal cost. > As with all other things > in the project, we welcome people who are willing to make an effort > to engage. We provide it when people ask, not spontaneously, because > organising cameras and decent microphones requires effort on the bart > of the organisers. Yes, "It takes effort." I get that. I've been part of the effort to provide remote participation for other groups, on a much larger scale than anything FreeBSD can dream of. My point, and I cannot emphasize this highly enough, is that your entire mindset about this is all wrong. It needs to shift from "We'll do this on a small scale, for those who ask" to "We'll make providing robust remote participation a top priority, built into the planning from day 1." It's as simple as that. > The FreeBSD Foundation has also offered to fund new contributors who > want to attend but are unable to afford to do so on their own. In > spite of the fact that I spent some effort encouraging people to > apply for this, only one person actually did. It isn't just the financial cost of attending the summit. Often (as in my case) it's the lack of ability to take time away from personal, work, and/or family commitments. For others it may be the difficulty of doing the traveling at all. The fact that only 1 person took you up on this offer (and IIRC there have been similar results in the past) pretty clearly indicates that you're trying to solve the wrong problem. Given that the foundation has money to spend here, why not put 2 and 2 together and have the foundation invest in providing remote participation? That would benefit far more people, and almost certainly at less cost. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:34:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFFF106566C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:34:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989BC14DAAE; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:34:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501ABA10.4050204@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:34:08 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:34:09 -0000 BTW, for those who'd like to get a flavor of what the IETF model looks like, the Vancouver meeting is in process now: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/84/agenda.html Feel free to join in as a lurker. -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:37:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD94106567E; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:37:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A247015125B; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:36:41 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501ABAA9.2030607@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:36:41 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> <501ABA10.4050204@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <501ABA10.4050204@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:37:13 -0000 On 08/02/2012 10:34, Doug Barton wrote: > BTW, for those who'd like to get a flavor of what the IETF model looks > like, the Vancouver meeting is in process now: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/84/agenda.html > > Feel free to join in as a lurker. Sorry, this agenda makes it easier to see the remote participation stuff: https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/84/ -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:37:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C861065747; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:37:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DA58FC16; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:37:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk (c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.18.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72HbZTV079910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:37:36 GMT (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:37:34 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:37:37 -0000 On 2 Aug 2012, at 18:28, Doug Barton wrote: > Welcome to the 21st Century. :) There are widely available audio and > video conferencing solutions that easily scale into the thousands of > users, at minimal cost. >=20 > Yes, "It takes effort." I get that. I've been part of the effort to > provide remote participation for other groups, on a much larger scale > than anything FreeBSD can dream of. >=20 > My point, and I cannot emphasize this highly enough, is that your = entire > mindset about this is all wrong. It needs to shift from "We'll do this > on a small scale, for those who ask" to "We'll make providing robust > remote participation a top priority, built into the planning from day > 1." It's as simple as that. Thank you for volunteering to organise this. It's good to see people = with both the motivation and experience required to do something well = actively contributing to the project. David= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:40:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF39C1065676 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:40:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E5D8FC17 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:40:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so18190491obb.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:40:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=5gLTnC0fWtxDHr9cU/6VfTjSPuarIcST/f9xiP5SV70=; b=oOdG04rYXkjUIvDVwqrD6FyVcGWE2G7rCpkNZyY2p5tMxRjTQ7jw1lmPYqZWQO8Aza ZhwQS+62OtB5wY9BsACYxXoxdZSuHoAZ4TfVTsoFraqOaWduZZD6wT4qH/UPJG7MuBNo BDn+rkdlnVDjVx4JEl8X/LM8ROF/Njld9CecRzv7Eh3w1yKXMnP9TC740P9qDcKpW0ka JJrjo0B/cwasijzCgqVMTh/MRV3AV8kE7xI4Vsk8PUBXSuGv8oKT4dxZhDgnKoeXOVnc /Vxp/WosGZNhg/MH1QfafJRrefpMq5AbzU3k0awMfimUNjt1dbv5rd7FaAcAeokS3/Nx nbEg== Received: by 10.182.164.40 with SMTP id yn8mr38525397obb.40.1343929242752; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.101.53] ([209.117.142.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a9sm6518625obp.14.2012.08.02.10.40.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:40:40 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1DE87ACB-10FD-4B23-850E-B0C4F564AB8F@bsdimp.com> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmRc0xKOU+FvC4vt8Qa5cBsTT7r6PZNSUNwV17Cw1JH2N1iwBlrnZbqHT/wzwDDBrA1P/O2 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, David Chisnall Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:40:45 -0000 On Aug 2, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > Those all sound like nice steps forward, thank you for pointing them > out. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong in this = area. > What would be nice I think would be if these steps were formalized, = and > shared more openly. Having things on the wiki is nice, but reporting > things in detail on the mailing lists puts it in the archives for = future > reference, as well as making it more broadly available to start with. One thing to remember about the IETF. There's many vendors that devote = significant resources to the IETF. While I was at Cisco, for example, I = know that we provided audio and video bridges to IEFT meetings to = facilitate remote attendance at the meetings. Cisco dedicated several = engineers to ensure that the audio and video quality remained good = during the meetings and were able to use facilities cisco normally used = for things like WebEx and MeetingPlace. With a global presence and = infrastructure, they were able to pull it off. I'm not aware of similar = resources within the project. We don't have any such benefactor in the project, so we have to rely on = the kindness of strangers. AsiaBSDcon live streams most of its talks, = but uses a free service that changes from year to year and is quite good = for talks, but can't do meetings at all. Other meeting things do = meetings OK, but the video or audio quality sucks unless you have high = end gear for the source. Mapping out what hardware, software and service = combinations work would be very beneficial. I suspect this will vary = based on geographic location (stuff that works good in the US won't work = in EU or Asia and vice versa). These issues are what makes it hit or = miss. While it is easy to skype one or two people into a meeting, that = scales poorly to more than two. Plus if things are going poorly, the = attempt to broadcast the meeting can derail or eat into the time = available significantly. I guess this is a long way to say that while one to one, and one to many = problems have relatively easy solutions, many to many like we need still = remains fussy and difficult. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:42:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8082B1065670; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:42:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davide.italiano@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B36E8FC1E; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbgb22 with SMTP id gb22so10330144vcb.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:42:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=FARLlrA/7gityq7RSE8nvLZATOwvUv9/emPGJATdKZk=; b=Lv9HWioS86xNGsbhZoxoRtKwaVV7T9DjG8XxgqEYNRm3sC9nicK4uHq8CmcJ6x5H1l cA7aVCbdaJHE2u2PW+rPvfSwIWAjmnwD/fcmj+nF3u6oVttU44jjknSmcN10w24OHysc EniUPoW1y2GCE0jEv44GKFppT2L2GoQCIkZktyeXec48Rktoxp19RANJyEq1LOw07vpA bXa0cPx19c/FTzetFDOpueC489v84CTmHU++tWG1b3qyJruPZnctQBtdq/x8DInDUZEh d4Pya6LLxl6oYbRKwgoGaqxN3lZ8pJ8VyPLbPT/utLOJq09z7XVCLak+Um0OyrqW9OJy /5/w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.150.211 with SMTP id z19mr10494392vcv.48.1343929374276; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: davide.italiano@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.196.170 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:42:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:42:54 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DTNJpdxM-s_crrafbYKLKxFnRGM Message-ID: From: Davide Italiano To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:42:55 -0000 On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: >>>> >>>> You don't want to work cooperatively. >>>> >>> Why is it that mbuf's refactoring consultation is being held in >>> internal, private, committers-and-invite-only-restricted meeting at >>> BSDCan ? >>> >>> Why is it that so much review and discussion on changes are held privately ? >> >> Arnaud, >> belive me, to date I don't recall a single major technical decision >> that has been settled exclusively in private (not subjected to peer >> review) and in particular in person (e-mail help you focus on a lot of >> different details that you may not have under control when talking to >> people, etc). >> > Whose call is it to declare something worth public discussion ? No one. > > Every time I see a "Suggested by:", "Submitted by:", "Reported by:", > and especially "Approved by:", there should to be a public reference > of the mentioned communication. > >> Sometimes it is useful that a limited number of developers is involved >> in initial brainstorming of some works, >> > Never. > >> but after this period >> constructive people usually ask for peer review publishing their plans >> on the mailing lists or other media. >> > Again, never. By doing so, you merely put the community in a situation > where, well, "We, committers, have come with this, you can either > accept or STFU, but no major changes will be made because we decided > so." > > The callout-ng conference at BSDCan was just beautiful, it was basically: > > Speaker: "we will do this" > Audience: "how about this situation ? What you will do will not work." > Speaker: "thank you for listening, end of the conference" > > It was beautiful to witness. > Well, my talk was mainly there to collect some opinion on how to continue my work. IIRC, the only one objection was on supporting callout execution from hw interrupt context. Mainly, the objection moved was that there were no practical applications for that. It turned out I found some, and in any case it wasn't "it will not work" but "probably it's not an effort you want to put because the consumers that can exploit some functionality are few". I wasn't really so familiar with that so I hesitated in answering. In any case, I liked a lot the objection moved by Attilio because it gave me the possibility to investigate and find out the right direction. As you may see, there's a branch in projects/ in which the feature that "won't work" is implemented, so, maybe you're missing something. If you had some concerns on it you can raise up your hand and tell: "hey, that sucks". It would be better than getting this feedback after 3 months of work honestly. I have nothing in contrary about getting feedbacks (negative or positive). But probably you belong to that kind of people that are able to tell only behind a monitor, so this is my last word on the topic. Get a life. >> If you don't see any public further discussion this may be meaning: >> a) the BSDCan meetings have been fruitless and there is no precise >> plan/roadmap/etc. >> > so not only you make it private, but it shamelessly failed... > >> b) there is still not consensus on details >> > Then the discussion should stop, public records are kept for reference > in the future. There is no problem with this. > >> and you can always publically asked on what was decided and what not. >> Just send a mail to interested recipients and CC any FreeBSD mailing >> list. >> > This is not the way "openness" should be about. > > - Arnaud > >> Attilio >> >> >> -- >> Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Davide From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:48:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E0D1065674; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:48:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gpalmer@freebsd.org) Received: from noop.in-addr.com (mail.in-addr.com [IPv6:2001:470:8:162::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FF78FC12; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:48:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from gjp by noop.in-addr.com with local (Exim 4.80 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SwzVe-0003l2-2H; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:48:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:48:29 -0400 From: Gary Palmer To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20120802174829.GA574@in-addr.com> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: gpalmer@freebsd.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on noop.in-addr.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, David Chisnall Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:48:43 -0000 On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 09:46:42AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > > but there is > > certainly no active attempt to exclude people who can't attend. > > ... and here is where I need to push back. "No active attempt to exclude > people" is not the same thing as actively encouraging remote > participation. It's the latter that we're after. s/encouraging remote/encouraging constructive remote/ The last thing we need is more people trying to get things done their way because they know best. People need to be willing to accept that maybe some widget they want won't be part of the goal of the project under discussion, for whatever reason. I've seen too many ... heated debates start up largely because people were not discussing things face to face. I'm not saying that all of the debates wouldn't happen if people were all in the same room, but a lot of them wouldn't. Larger/longer term projects should probably have their own mailing list set up for discussion. Regards, Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:50:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C98B1065676; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:50:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432FF8FC14; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:50:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93D7FB968; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:50:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:39:07 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201208020839.07910.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Doug Barton , Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:50:27 -0000 On Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:30:16 am Doug Barton wrote: > On 8/1/2012 8:36 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > I think this proves the point everybody has been saying: you are being needlessly contrary and confrontational. > > Actually if you take a step back and look at what Arnaud is saying > objectively, he's right. If anyone can attend the meeting by simply > getting an invitation from a committer, the only purpose the invitation > serves is to force the mere-mortal user to kiss someone's ring. That's > precisely the kind of elitist crap that I've been railing against for so > many years now. > > OTOH, currently the dev summits generally take place with limited > resources, so it's not really possible to have "everyone" attend. And > (TMK) the "invitation" process is really more like a restaurant with a > sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." The latter bits here are mostly true. The biggest constraint is space. Also, I don't know of anyone that has asked to attend the developer summit as a guest that wasn't invited. > But on the _other_ other hand, the problem of things being discussed > and/or decisions being taken exclusively at the dev summits, especially > BSDCAN, has gotten quite bad over the last several years. Even amongst > committers, the community has become divided between the "haves" who can > travel to the summit, and the "have nots" who can't. Note, I'm quite > sure that this statement will be met with howls of protest, from the > "haves," that this isn't the case. Even if they were sincere, it's > incredibly easy for the people with the privileges to see their > privileged state as "normal," and lose sight of how the world looks from > the cheap seats. I find this a bit ironic from you given that I've met you in person at USENIX ATC which is an order of magnitude more expensive than BSDCan (and in fact, one of the reasons the US-based BSDCon died and was effectively supplanted by BSDCan was that BSDCan is far cheaper). > I used to ask the PTB to provide *some* form of remote participation for > even a fraction of the events at the dev summit. I don't bother asking > anymore because year after year my requests were met with any of: > indifference, hostility, shrugged shoulders (that's a hard problem that > we can't solve), or embarrassment. Since if the right people around here > want something to happen, it happens; I finally came to the conclusion > that they didn't want remote participation to happen, so it won't. > That's a shame. To be honest, the preocuppations to date have been a bit more basic than that (figuring out a workable format, lots of effort on simple logistics like food and rooms). Also, in previous years we have often had breakout rooms in random conference rooms in what would be the equivalent of a dorm meeting area with no A/V equipment, etc. The last two years have cut down to fewer meetings in more reasonable rooms. The connectivity is now generally reliable as well. All that to say that now that some basic things are settled, we can probably make some forward progress on this. A first step might be to start recording the summit sessions (BSDCan already has a partner that does this). Live streaming I'm less sure of, mostly because I am completely ignorant of what is available. I do know that having a bunch of people skype in would not be feasible (not enough bandwidth to send video out in multiple streams). The video would need to go out in a single stream to a distributor of some sort. And, quite frankly, despite Doug's "haves" vs "have-nots" implications, we can't afford an expensive commercial solution (e.g. Cisco) AFAIK. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 17:52:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B09106566C; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:52:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487C61563FB; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:47:48 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501ABD43.5090604@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:47:47 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Chisnall References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:52:14 -0000 On 08/02/2012 10:37, David Chisnall wrote: > > Thank you for volunteering to organise this. It's good to see people with both the motivation and experience required to do something well actively contributing to the project. Cheap copout. And quite sad, especially coming from a newly elected core team member. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 18:02:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA969106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:02:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082CB161230; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501ABE83.2000003@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:53:07 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <1DE87ACB-10FD-4B23-850E-B0C4F564AB8F@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <1DE87ACB-10FD-4B23-850E-B0C4F564AB8F@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, David Chisnall Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:02:51 -0000 On 08/02/2012 10:40, Warner Losh wrote: > One thing to remember about the IETF. There's many vendors that devote significant resources to the IETF. While I was at Cisco, for example, I know that we provided audio and video bridges to IEFT meetings to facilitate remote attendance at the meetings. Cisco dedicated several engineers to ensure that the audio and video quality remained good during the meetings and were able to use facilities cisco normally used for things like WebEx and MeetingPlace. With a global presence and infrastructure, they were able to pull it off. I'm not aware of similar resources within the project. I'm not suggesting we need anything at the full WebEx audio/video/presentation/chat level. And apparently the Foundation has money to spend on dev summits. As I suggested in a previous message, this would be a good long-term investment that would benefit a lot of people, especially in comparison to the money set aside for travel grants which is now going begging. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 18:06:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48358106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:06:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113C114F80F; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:04:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501AC118.40104@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:04:08 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin References: <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <201208020839.07910.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <201208020839.07910.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:06:31 -0000 On 08/02/2012 05:39, John Baldwin wrote: > I find this a bit ironic from you given that I've met you in person at > USENIX ATC which is an order of magnitude more expensive than BSDCan (and > in fact, one of the reasons the US-based BSDCon died and was effectively > supplanted by BSDCan was that BSDCan is far cheaper). Yep, back in 2004 when traveling to conferences was part of my job, and before my daughter was born. My life now is quite different. ... not to mention that this thread isn't about me. It's about the importance of remote participation to the FreeBSD community as a whole. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 18:12:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B833106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:12:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A1E8FC14; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:12:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk (c120.sec.cl.cam.ac.uk [128.232.18.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72ICA4c080070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:12:12 GMT (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <501ABD43.5090604@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:12:10 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> <501ABD43.5090604@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:12:14 -0000 On 2 Aug 2012, at 18:47, Doug Barton wrote: > Cheap copout. And quite sad, especially coming from a newly elected = core > team member. FreeBSD is a volunteer project. Our DevSummits are not run by a = commercial organisation, they are run by volunteers. I am not being = paid to organise the Cambridge DevSummit, I am doing it in my spare = time, as are the other people here. The resources available are those = that I can beg or borrow from the university and from other developers. = The attendance fee is =A350, which is just about enough to cover the = costs (we hope). Comparing this to a professionally organised event = like an IETF meeting, with large commercial sponsors (the IETF event you = cite is hosted by Google), and complaining that it comes up short is = insulting. Saying 'solutions exist, therefore you must have the time, = expertise, and resources to deploy them' is insulting. It is not = constructive. If you are willing to make a helpful contribution, then = it is welcome. If you are going to complain, yet not offer anything = constructive, then you are just trolling and I am wasting my time by = reading your emails, let alone replying. We have arranged to borrow a decent microphone and camera from the video = conferencing suite in the department and have planned to use Skype to = allow remote participation in two sessions. If you wish to propose a = more scalable solution that can be easily deployed here by people with = no prior experience setting up such a system, then please do so. =20 If you feel that you can do a better job organising a DevSummit than the = people who have donated their free time to organise the ones in the past = and the ones planned in the next few months, then I am certain that they = would be very happy for you to assist in the organisation. If your = attitude is 'well, I'm not going to do anything, but it must be easy = because no effort from me is involved so you should do it' then I find = your attitude personally insulting and unproductive. David From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 18:33:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAB9106564A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D148814DE23; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:33:19 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501AC7EF.4070605@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:33:19 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120728 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Chisnall References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> <501ABD43.5090604@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:33:20 -0000 On 08/02/2012 11:12, David Chisnall wrote: > FreeBSD is a volunteer project. Yeah, I get that. I've been around quite a bit longer than you have, in case you didn't notice. :) I understand what you're saying, it's going to take work to change this mindset, and to provide these resources. If you read my posts on a factual basis, I'm not suggesting that the dev summits provide remote participation at the same level as groups like the IETF or ICANN do, and your point (and Warner's) that these groups have significant financial backing is well taken. However, my point is that in spite of the fact that it's non-trivial, the mindset on this topic needs to change if the dev summits are going to continue to be significant focii of both work being done and decisions being made (which of course, they are). What I'm *not* doing is demanding that any one person, or even any one group take responsibility for solving the whole problem on their own. Unfortunately, due to my inability to actually attend these meetings, I won't be able to provide the kind of hands-on assistance that I'd like to be able to. However it sounds like there may be financial resources available through the foundation, which would go a long way towards making a solution possible. The next step would be for people to agree that this is a problem that *needs* to be solved, followed by willingness on the part of dev summit organizers to support these efforts, which will hopefully lead to people who are willing and interested to step up and actually provide solutions. It's already been true in the past that various companies have volunteered to do this. There is no reason to believe that it wouldn't happen again if organizers are willing to be supportive. What I'm hearing so far is defensiveness, and an attempt to focus the discussion on me. Neither is helpful. :) Acknowledging that this is a problem that needs to be solved does not imply that by not solving it you personally have failed in some way. I apologize if anything I've written so far has implied otherwise. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 19:18:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382BA106566B; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:18:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009438FC0A; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:18:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust445.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com [86.26.13.190]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q72JIFcV080280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:18:19 GMT (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <501AC7EF.4070605@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:18:10 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0F923CD6-BCF1-4722-8E4A-9485A7D6E279@freebsd.org> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <501AAEF2.8060202@FreeBSD.org> <501AB8C0.3020102@FreeBSD.org> <501ABD43.5090604@FreeBSD.org> <501AC7EF.4070605@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 19:18:21 -0000 Thank you for your thoughtful reply, On 2 Aug 2012, at 19:33, Doug Barton wrote: > However, my point is that in spite of the fact that it's non-trivial, > the mindset on this topic needs to change if the dev summits are going > to continue to be significant focii of both work being done and > decisions being made (which of course, they are). I believe that, before that decision can be made, there needs to be some = consensus on what the purpose of the DevSummits is. In my view, = DevSummits do not exist to set project policy. They are places where: - People can talk face to face about their current and planned projects. - Developers can meet on a social basis, making remote working easier. The latter is very important - I've found in other projects that it's = far easier to work with someone on the other side of the world when = you've chatted with them over a few beverages-of-choice. =20 Any official conversations happen on the mailing lists. DevSummits are = for people working on similar things to meet and discuss their plans, = and for people to have a chance to get to know what everyone else is = doing, for a limited set of 'everyone else'. Slides and summaries so on = from the more structured parts of this are available afterwards, which = helps people who can't attend get the same benefit - they know what = other people are working on. The original complaint that spawned this long discussion was that = decisions about the project are made behind closed doors. This is = obviously true in the literal sense, as code always wins over chatter in = an open source project, and the person willing to sit down and write the = code gets the final say on how it should work, although ideally with = code review, design feedback and so on from others. Even if we = broadcast everything that happens in the official parts of the = DevSummits, that won't necessarily fix anything because a lot of the = most productive conversations happen over dinner or in the pub. =20 If there is a real problem to address, then it is people making policy = decisions at DevSummits, without adequate consultation. I have not = observed this happening, but I would regard it as no different to people = making policy decisions via private email, and something that should be = subject to the same response: revisit the decisions in public if there = are legitimate concerns raised about it, subject to the usual open = source rule that the person actually willing to do the work gets to make = the final call. > What I'm *not* doing is demanding that any one person, or even any one > group take responsibility for solving the whole problem on their own. > Unfortunately, due to my inability to actually attend these meetings, = I > won't be able to provide the kind of hands-on assistance that I'd like > to be able to. However it sounds like there may be financial resources > available through the foundation, which would go a long way towards > making a solution possible. Finance is not the only obstacle. In some venues, bandwidth is a = problem (not at Cambridge hopefully - people will have stopped using it = all to stream the olympics by then), but in other venues we only have = WiFi, which is shared with a room full of developers. If we buy some = equipment (decent microphones are not always available - we were unable = to find one at FOSDEM for remote attendees, for example), then it would = need to be transported between events, and someone would need to be = responsible for looking after it and ensuring that it is set up = correctly at each event. =20 > The next step would be for people to agree that this is a problem that > *needs* to be solved, followed by willingness on the part of dev = summit > organizers to support these efforts, which will hopefully lead to = people > who are willing and interested to step up and actually provide > solutions. It's already been true in the past that various companies > have volunteered to do this. There is no reason to believe that it > wouldn't happen again if organizers are willing to be supportive. There are two proposals: Remote viewing and remote participation. = Remote viewing, being non-interactive, does not have to be done via = streaming, it can be done by recording the event and making it available = online. Even this is not trivial: we've done it for the GNUstep devroom = at FOSDEM most years, and it typically takes a long time to get the = videos edited and uploaded. ARM sent a professional team to do it at = EuroLLVM, and yet they didn't have enough equipment to cover everything = (my tutorial, for example, was not recorded). I would say that this is = something that is very useful for presentation-style events, but = DevSummits are typically more round-table discussions and hacking = sessions than presentations. Remote participation is bidirectional, and I am a lot more wary about = that. The productivity of a meeting is usually inversely proportional = to the number of attendees, and allowing a lot more people in does not = necessarily improve anything for anyone. It's always tempting to speak = up and make A Contribution (I have certainly been guilty of this in the = past, and no doubt will be in the future) when really the meeting needs = everyone to shut up and move on to the next item. The main advantage of = the small group meetings is that they don't degenerate into bikesheds as = easily. Of course, the down side is that they also lack any kind of = mandate because they are not including everyone's opinions, which is why = summaries are posted on the wiki and linked to from the mailing list so = that longer discussions can take place online. Encouraging remote participation also has the unintended side effect of = discouraging real participation. I've seen in other projects that when = you try to make remote participation easy it means a lot of people think = 'well, I can just join in remotely, I don't need to make the effort to = turn up'. This is why I think we have about the right balance for the = Cambridge DevSummit. We have a few people (e.g. Dru, Warner) who would = benefit from being there (and whose presence the community would benefit = from), but who are unable to make it. We have set up something so that = they can (hopefully!) join in remotely, but this is very much a = second-choice option. Ideally, we'd see all of the remote attendees in = person. =20 If the majority are not present in person, then we may as well not have = a DevSummit at all, and just have a regular conference call that's open = to all. Or, to save bandwidth, a mailing list or IRC channel... =20 If anything, I suspect a large number of remote attendees would end up = having the opposite of the desired effect, and mean that the vast = majority of the actual decision making would take place in the pub after = the official meetings, where it won't even be reported on the mailing = lists until the commits start landing. David From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 20:44:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960AE106564A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:44:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starkbeats@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108C78FC0A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:43:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so6739464laa.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=D37pywoOUe6c1rD9iSsYHa4i9si2gXcFzXWxtc8rPlQ=; b=XA9W7F8A5w5u2iWEolcy1uUQ5UTMppC3W64jFBvTF6zAIy5vGSfZWo6JibMcf8AL6j DieZG6YaO8H9bZPqbrVSKtZeUxJulF0NThrUnxkSQyv801wEmA5PneftgA4AWrQdyUnw ZdP4mVpIN/rj3Bj+0VyGFibrebYRlbYAAQ2RpeeYhvlpvGPiFJBnA6x3r1KJYjJW/Hh4 tZ1Qv03UwXHT98moRFtJmm7Me423fyze0wAA3bNmvkxzI7lZkc8FL5oq3Jk1P+iUErbP pm2mKSZEkAbfOCwjkJdSj7UojrJpAuDnZXsFE2VFmNrEuQFkKuVCFQZtGsBFX4pO5NDM NLyg== Received: by 10.112.11.38 with SMTP id n6mr9841888lbb.82.1343940238663; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (c83-250-241-62.bredband.comhem.se. [83.250.241.62]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hg4sm6759069lab.11.2012.08.02.13.43.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Fredrik Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:48:50 +0200 Message-Id: <70F3960D-2F6F-4E46-A3A7-B863FED8EBDC@gmail.com> To: FreeBSD Hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Subject: FreeBSD ZFS source X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 20:44:00 -0000 Hello, Excuse me for this newb question but exactly where are the current ZFS = files located? I have been looking at the CVS on freebsd.org under = /src/contrib/opensolaris/ but that does not seem to be the current ones. = Is this correct? Regards= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 22:17:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70377106564A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:17:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from apeiron@isuckatdomains.net) Received: from isuckatdomains.net (unknown [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:4::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5699E8FC0C for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:17:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from isuckatdomains.isuckatdomains.net (isuckatdomains.net [74.207.243.179]) by isuckatdomains.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0974D45E10 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:17:15 -0400 From: Chris Nehren To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120802221715.GF11061@isuckatdomains.isuckatdomains.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <70F3960D-2F6F-4E46-A3A7-B863FED8EBDC@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1Y7d0dPL928TPQbc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70F3960D-2F6F-4E46-A3A7-B863FED8EBDC@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: FreeBSD ZFS source X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:17:17 -0000 --1Y7d0dPL928TPQbc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 22:48:50 +0200 , Fredrik wrote: > Hello, >=20 > Excuse me for this newb question but exactly where are the current ZFS > files located? I have been looking at the CVS on freebsd.org under > /src/contrib/opensolaris/ but that does not seem to be the current > ones. Is this correct? $ find /usr/src -type d -iname zfs /usr/src/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/cmd/zfs /usr/src/cddl/sbin/zfs /usr/src/lib/libprocstat/zfs /usr/src/sys/boot/zfs /usr/src/sys/cddl/boot/zfs /usr/src/sys/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/common/zfs /usr/src/sys/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/uts/common/fs/zfs /usr/src/sys/modules/zfs /usr/src/tools/regression/zfs Those are probably a good start. Some of them just contain a Makefile pointing you elsewhere in the tree, though. I might have missed something, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I have. --=20 Thanks and best regards, Chris Nehren --1Y7d0dPL928TPQbc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQGvxqAAoJEB3ywRGrHAnQgSkP/AkexJUXjJXY/mqNnd/QASJ/ JlN40H9D0MqCRX/VQyt7N1dJkhrE43rDpirEpYUiCg6KxhmdH6lTr+Wnl/eGA3fU LvP/MHdBtXKj4MTukCz7HTIJZc3+vpxf14wDc5n2mxztvyORFNW2iXMZ4nMn7w+v UT0Cb2oqNEikbslV0cCZEOz19j8VbqYBkaSDgTrhu+78YL4TPQUnz6WNmvvJ2zn+ Xowh2/C9fekqQTvK2/79Rduu+OHLV1xGyzXHLQSGC+nZ84GrJPV3t7LZoPCoN/yN ohatWhroj/l4rLQ5rcfUHP+tITHI13Wsfuq58knz15eLzTHLERdQ881Mk5XoKTW3 mFtjQdTShPdZuXkKxS4I4fJtaopT/tmzs22bZkCQATKulUcq9CSObui+cOSsox91 aIF4Kk5m9VAPBjNMgnWGv89DcZqmGuvyU5J4a3W5R0Q/zsWK8L2yGcRteTco+Rob eevHULgWt93cuC8YuJ3Dx70PC27u330jq/zJMOm4kPXDOKjpXThTbAv2r5/M9L1D ZKPActWGiIELxtPFDIGOLlHv5PLFLVVSohD8LFLCcxp6sfPLzOW5QCr4Qr+kfZsL Cqazi4YTX5Y81MwCFS9ItDdf4hgwMcDq70es1SS33pperrzvo2KGkjTPA/z/iI8w L5P08sEPWWSwDU4Hx+i9 =i8gK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1Y7d0dPL928TPQbc-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 22:19:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB42106564A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:19:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oliver.pntr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7212C8FC0A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:19:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so71268obb.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=eNRMFaUQurJOG8Ljd9GteIMmwq7lc0VAaJUZ2D0k4QU=; b=KpfBNo0rVqPzhrJmEv89EXKnDxHwT4cFmH89wmuTtJitNbbMrPAaLNp54QL0oiQJkI RfdchHBScaZyAhB+JMFAGdsKi3BTa5ak2v7hyhlljVYakWIzTHxW14JoprfcoEj8rZZ8 g/gcIgANRcKYPqWvPRbr3lYYcImCprDgbcrDAixswNYfhc+r9XObUTOZfxWJ0FTssag6 lghLfI8IR9kjjZSVsO7GXik9z+CV4OU2P0Q4zi3OWPl2Vsh7wLTxbCIqbPd3uV7BnVgR HhtWaInTPBSAdO00HB+1JlXngXhZYZyQdRy8z+VkDXu4rSei7iUDPcblAj1DMLPKLGbk 0D3w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.144.68 with SMTP id sk4mr41071818obb.0.1343945989678; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.168.38 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <70F3960D-2F6F-4E46-A3A7-B863FED8EBDC@gmail.com> References: <70F3960D-2F6F-4E46-A3A7-B863FED8EBDC@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 00:19:49 +0200 Message-ID: From: Oliver Pinter To: Fredrik Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: FreeBSD ZFS source X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:19:50 -0000 http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/sys/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/common/ http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/lib/ On 8/2/12, Fredrik wrote: > Hello, > > Excuse me for this newb question but exactly where are the current ZFS files > located? I have been looking at the CVS on freebsd.org under > /src/contrib/opensolaris/ but that does not seem to be the current ones. Is > this correct? > > Regards_______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 22:38:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCAD106566B for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:38:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.mail.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 94E1A8FC08 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:38:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 20152 invoked by uid 0); 2 Aug 2012 22:38:10 -0000 Received: from 67.206.185.58 by rms-us002 with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:38:08 -0400 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120802223810.298390@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: BWRpcOsV3zOlNR3dAHAhvl9+IGRvb8Ck Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:38:18 -0000 Yuri writes: > One of my 9.1-BETA1 systems periodically freezes. If sound was playing, > it would usually cycle with a very short period. And system stops being > sensitive to keyboard/mouse. Also ping of this system doesn't get a > response. So the sound continues, on and off, while everything else freezes? I would suspect that the sound device driver is locking out other devices and hogging the system. WHY does FreeBSD allow one device driver to lock out out everything else? And what can we do about it? I've seen a device driver lock out everything else for minutes-on-end, which of course resulted in data being lost. Losing data is one of the worst things an OS can do. This needs to be fixed. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 2 22:57:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B31106564A for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:57:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CD68FC08 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:57:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so121642obb.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 15:57:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=vMyV1ljCyJNglBUXsRA9wRLmuduvDZKjjpDeehWJvcU=; b=oq2mvhFa/IypTpIwvxq/Br3iSuoKF/OMoeSVcTBRAqmgBnQuRkTKx3En6F8+JlBpO4 3jOnl54BcBAp9+9gG+i4IdmmwUY84+4ibMxZBMFLMUzh1WW/dwbRNm3O/3s5XVMxcHSH FfECVGQHjX/7O0ZViZ0MjXlPEoJCr3RP9R/otF2tS9TMbPc4annJxu58VdL83isVx8r/ 6C3eUFncHOlpsBEVuL2s4z38urF4wLqZZxo1sTS0upac3/fZ7ewc+uRNs/95N8+IM3tq dT5RWNRa58laV0OrKNg6awgCd+JtdeCwV0fOggzV5I2s5eHLbmAkBzECYYj+yK5DNdDF EmUQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.89.102 with SMTP id bn6mr40669849obb.7.1343948262128; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 15:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.151.3 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 15:57:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120802223810.298390@gmx.com> References: <20120802223810.298390@gmx.com> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 15:57:42 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: n5Lpnx3RdvS-2XaDEIxrBhnInT0 Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Dieter BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:57:43 -0000 the "cycle over a short period" may not be the driver writing the same crap to the card. I've seen similar failure modes in windows where during playback, if the system hangs for whatever reason, the card plays the last sample over and over in a loop. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 00:37:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB9F106564A; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 00:37:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002578FC12; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 00:37:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from JRE-MBP-2.local (c-67-180-24-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.24.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q730bJ2R001942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <501B1D3A.6080501@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:37:14 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> <501AB08E.8020008@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <501AB08E.8020008@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Garrett Cooper , FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 00:37:23 -0000 On 8/2/12 9:53 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 08/02/2012 09:44, Garrett Cooper wrote: >> The "Watson/Losh connection" worked really well in BSDCan 2010 :). > I wasn't going to mention that, since I didn't want to tell tales out of > school. But the fact that remote participation actually was provided for > "the right people," even though I was told repeatedly that it wasn't > possible, actually highlights a big part of the problem. bandwidth was limited and a single 1:1 skype connection was all we really could do. I did broadcast sessions a few years ago using the apple quicktime server but it was a lot of work and I think one person looked at part of one session. > Doug From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 01:14:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615EF106566C; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 01:14:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F2E8FC08; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 01:14:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by weyx56 with SMTP id x56so111565wey.13 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:14:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+j/HxlANKMy451Fl79QlSEDkJAkLyqfnjLgaHunmYOQ=; b=zG51jNwIyYx7Nnx1092P75S9/glG2e9Pf324HFSngTVvu1BqgokE5aX2zg1BtNewk0 4ILl4uPSWbzHMcJ9eJ1RApmmEvAc7aOlfFMvdu5YtuGB7D6fGZeCV1Zxabngxb9QzALX a/H6KMU7exsL3cqlp01Ojm97GCDp0nf8r1Gw0e6helZWycJ5Tt9bImo9DMwGCpdPh0wE 7n93xRy+4o0DHuRKZoCdqJ02pi9S2ZjQfCLe38Ytsbbp/byYae2QbruZ+uX6bOUNg5+D kR0Ji3UErjKop3pJRJ1aQ6JZjXy8ljFHzUvDkddb/sYdjLo9Gen7upDpKXnNPpBzLxqU YvfA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.100.37 with SMTP id ev5mr57068wib.5.1343956470253; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.60.147 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:14:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501B1D3A.6080501@freebsd.org> References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> <501AB08E.8020008@FreeBSD.org> <501B1D3A.6080501@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:14:30 -0700 Message-ID: From: Kevin Oberman To: Julian Elischer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 01:52:05 +0000 Cc: Doug Barton , Garrett Cooper , FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 01:14:32 -0000 On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 8/2/12 9:53 AM, Doug Barton wrote: >> >> On 08/02/2012 09:44, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>> >>> The "Watson/Losh connection" worked really well in BSDCan 2010 :). >> >> I wasn't going to mention that, since I didn't want to tell tales out of >> school. But the fact that remote participation actually was provided for >> "the right people," even though I was told repeatedly that it wasn't >> possible, actually highlights a big part of the problem. > > bandwidth was limited and a single 1:1 skype connection was all we really > could do. > > I did broadcast sessions a few years ago using the apple quicktime server > but it was a lot of work and I think one person looked at part of one > session. > >> Doug First, too many of these posts assume way too much. I don't think anyone should be thinking of any sort of what is commonly called "teleconferencing". That would be nice, but is far more complex and expensive, both in bandwidth and equipment, then should be considered as a starting point. I suggest the starting point is a webpage with a link to the slides being presented and a simple audio stream. This is trivially possible with a FreeBSD system and open-source software. A bandwidth of only about 70kbps would be needed. Less with reasonable codec choice. Several streams could be broadcast via a single, unicast stream to a well connected server which woild then stream to end users It might be augmented with jabber other open IM technology with someone at the meeting if procedures for this could be agreed to. (Some vetting is desirable, but will result in calls of censorship.) For small rooms, microphones are fairly easy to handle and one-way streams don't require echo cancellation. As costs for video come down, that might be something to think about some day, but is not required to allow remote "attendance". Of course, unless this is publicized, no one will come (which eliminates any technical issues). :-) -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer E-mail: kob6558@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 09:45:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E6C1065672 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:45:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from kabab.cs.huji.ac.il (kabab.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140A18FC0A for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:45:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32]) by kabab.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1SxES5-000LNc-Dz for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 12:45:50 +0300 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.3 To: FreeBSD Hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 12:45:49 +0300 From: Daniel Braniss Message-ID: Subject: 9.1-PRERELEASE and entering kdb weirdness X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 09:45:58 -0000 Hi, with 8,x an previous, I compile kernel with options KDB options DDB options ALT_BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER and so hitting control+alt+escape would enter the debugger on the console, or CR ~ ^b on the serial console. the same config on 9.1, only if sysctl debug.kdb.break_to_debugger=1 which allows BREAK on the serial, the control+alt+escape works on the console. from NOTES: # Options for serial drivers that support consoles: options BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER # A BREAK on a serial console goes to # ddb, if available. can someone clarify? cheers, danny From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 14:36:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FA9106564A; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:36:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from psychosensor@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gh0-f182.google.com (mail-gh0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CAD8FC08; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:36:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ghbz22 with SMTP id z22so1094331ghb.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 07:36:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=p+fOmv9qfBW64rjWVfuVA7RBj+he72MBRRr1zOXXg9U=; b=Ttwq90aNBGsByy1YK6mM26e4N9jqzGWK4YOmottuTFClHATNdNILjshydsQ/agkRvc viYMdn6y/wRaev2kEm8VTmv1hQBHYkpc+GP3B2kqCoxJYTc160WQ1rgDwOjkGBzSw8cn n6X9UkF+mWNQf/6evahxcMuFHZm0RiPuXaQFnU4OipSdyDWjZTMO5zg3zTX4VPpFFk9F AFp6hkWh4zI8zhhGdeS9dOkfUlrTpQhqDELVf1khA1sjpK95PLNGl8FYrtmPAN5YgZ7s Gav9lZRZnipXlZX1jEvdRSkjl2TyNYxXIAJ2N2CM2p+DJUcntvwvUoxFbnaj+oNUpTLV rr+w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.195.97 with SMTP id o61mr2115843yhn.17.1344004579134; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 07:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.212.9 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:36:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501A86BC.9060606@FreeBSD.org> References: <501A86BC.9060606@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:36:19 +0300 Message-ID: From: Sergey Listopad To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to debug loader(8) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:36:20 -0000 2012/8/2 Andrey V. Elsukov : > On 02.08.2012 15:30, Sergey Listopad wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I have as issue with booting FreeBSD on retro server. >> loader(8) stuck during the boot (more details >> http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?CAO_2TxM4_7YpPV9iTXeX6S7w4T1zqiZJa0ewe5KKiusdmNiVnw) >> >> How can I debug why loader(8) is stuck. What information may be helpful? > Hi. > > It seems that biosdisk driver can't detect any disks except floppy. > You can add some printfs to the bd_init() and bd_int13probe() functions > in the sys/boot/i386/libi386/biosdisk.c file. Then recompile the loader > and test. Also you can try to use grub loader, afaik it has a bit more > quirks to the known problems. If it will work, we can try to fix our > loader too. > > -- > WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov BIOS update have resolved issue. Thanks for help. Sorry for noise. -- S.Listopad From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 14:58:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D100E1065673; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:58:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gg0-f182.google.com (mail-gg0-f182.google.com [209.85.161.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4141B8FC1D; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:58:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ggnk4 with SMTP id k4so1132476ggn.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 07:58:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=+wJ5zopgSGloFRc3UfM075X6muE243xJ04g9ktr5GvU=; b=LerpC4tPcX6mMFJn2QLo4CbVj0eH6Qd6cwEZmzRFOLSMxuKdVeHyjbsdlsmNGsHEVG gxGqyiqNXRLI6pQRE0D0Cu3aGCTC5uZB5QlwGX2U9LFD77PGJO9DiNT6DjaFszERSBoW GrzHfsgKi2/BriXcWYBFnVFUTMwDRmn/yIJdUEK5Fi+n2t8DijVfPKvE4q36ZOecYXPB lW4g/JjQnuCflLkrJ5Flwuwii5Ex/82SSmanVfbZu7WtZXX5+3MyXYoMFhvhdfNLkTCR y5YVB1s///ACTleguSH5hT0OvOJPmPVYubxBOGWG1iysAlzrwQJrn0HF4gMYGUIXiSOB vu1Q== Received: by 10.50.94.199 with SMTP id de7mr3980501igb.40.1344005888718; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 07:58:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.90.229 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:57:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <612DA8A3-121E-4E72-9E5B-F3CBA9DEB7F7@bsdimp.com> <501A0258.4010101@FreeBSD.org> <45815622-3CE2-42E3-B118-702AA70C7E4C@samsco.org> <501AB08E.8020008@FreeBSD.org> <501B1D3A.6080501@freebsd.org> From: Royce Williams Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:57:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: Kevin Oberman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Doug Barton , Garrett Cooper , FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Arnaud Lacombe Subject: Re: On cooperative work [Was: Re: newbus' ivar's limitation..] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:58:11 -0000 On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote: > On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: >> On 8/2/12 9:53 AM, Doug Barton wrote: >>> >>> On 08/02/2012 09:44, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>>> >>>> The "Watson/Losh connection" worked really well in BSDCan 2010 :). >>> >>> I wasn't going to mention that, since I didn't want to tell tales out of >>> school. But the fact that remote participation actually was provided for >>> "the right people," even though I was told repeatedly that it wasn't >>> possible, actually highlights a big part of the problem. >> >> bandwidth was limited and a single 1:1 skype connection was all we really >> could do. >> >> I did broadcast sessions a few years ago using the apple quicktime server >> but it was a lot of work and I think one person looked at part of one >> session. >> >>> Doug > > First, too many of these posts assume way too much. I don't think > anyone should be thinking of any sort of what is commonly called > "teleconferencing". That would be nice, but is far more complex and > expensive, both in bandwidth and equipment, then should be considered > as a starting point. > > I suggest the starting point is a webpage with a link to the slides > being presented and a simple audio stream. This is trivially possible > with a FreeBSD system and open-source software. A bandwidth of only > about 70kbps would be needed. Less with reasonable codec choice. > Several streams could be broadcast via a single, unicast stream to a > well connected server which woild then stream to end users It might be > augmented with jabber other open IM technology with someone at the > meeting if procedures for this could be agreed to. (Some vetting is > desirable, but will result in calls of censorship.) > > For small rooms, microphones are fairly easy to handle and one-way > streams don't require echo cancellation. > As costs for video come down, that might be something to think about > some day, but is not required to allow remote "attendance". > > Of course, unless this is publicized, no one will come (which > eliminates any technical issues). :-) Nail -> head. Everything that Kevin just said. With so much collective technical experience and intelligence available, we can work out the minor kinks in a solved problem (one-to-many audio and slide sharing). Getting the word out is also a solved problem. Both are very high-leverage -- and very good for the project. If we think about live BSDCan streaming as a fun project with classic hack value, instead of "an amorphous cloud of undoability", things will just come together naturally. The next action I see is calling for boots-on-the-ground volunteers to coordinate the local setup, and maybe a wiki page to capture the state of the project. Royce From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 15:24:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A377106566B for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 15:24:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starkbeats@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E349C8FC17 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 15:24:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so527781laa.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:24:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=/Dai3sGBG/OW3KZ/3FbtD+fx1p0GbeECJaMyERN91aM=; b=mKv2uPL4YHkSIhx6Clz42ahFzXzmgwbbNvk90D0ay/BBtYKNA7DZViMrLFCzK/R4ri bRtShVpmlViQ5GlV3jiHifGndROUKWyfFKypI9cqVJ2eTnyvR0iXD7hrfasXbrVPKung ATcRdskqmP5JPoFGfZAuEjeOhCYbHS5SST28ENw/mof09CouvklDrmZ33XUA/g/pZ5nn Jp9ikmagRvH0q+jjkyP4F6i3vsUVJHkDpu07y+Vx1UgjY2GE1B32KYckaMy5yfNtOCPP ta1c1tcqkVc3vcO6O3o+Y0xYq4M7wBZZ3yC6V+/7XC3maoeInh1sXh/3QigbPD5JqPxo pfRQ== Received: by 10.152.122.9 with SMTP id lo9mr1910381lab.41.1344007467390; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (c83-250-241-62.bredband.comhem.se. [83.250.241.62]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hm7sm8961169lab.12.2012.08.03.08.24.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Fredrik In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:29:18 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <70F3960D-2F6F-4E46-A3A7-B863FED8EBDC@gmail.com> To: FreeBSD Hackers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: Chris Nehren , Oliver Pinter Subject: Re: FreeBSD ZFS source X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:24:29 -0000 Oliver and Chris, thanks.=20 3 aug 2012 kl. 00.19 skrev Oliver Pinter: > = http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/sys/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/common/ > http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/lib/ >=20 >=20 > On 8/2/12, Fredrik wrote: >> Hello, >>=20 >> Excuse me for this newb question but exactly where are the current = ZFS files >> located? I have been looking at the CVS on freebsd.org under >> /src/contrib/opensolaris/ but that does not seem to be the current = ones. Is >> this correct? >>=20 >> Regards_______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>=20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 17:54:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650F8106566C for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:54:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 091CD8FC08 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:54:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 17820 invoked by uid 0); 3 Aug 2012 17:13:22 -0000 Received: from 67.206.185.79 by rms-us011.v300.gmx.net with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:13:21 -0400 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120803171322.298400@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: 5WNucPQV3zOlNR3dAHAhwTF+IGRvb4Aj Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:54:53 -0000 Adrian writes: > the "cycle over a short period" may not be the driver writing the same > crap to the card. I've seen similar failure modes in windows where > during playback, if the system hangs for whatever reason, the card > plays the last sample over and over in a loop. Ok, that makes sense.  So it could be any device driver. Seems like diagnosing a device driver that is stuck in an infinite loop (or equivalent) with all interrupts shut off would be rather difficult. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 3 19:34:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209431065670 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:34:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DB38FC0C for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:34:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so1883776obb.13 for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=qN29EcLgNcQRf0ZCt4ds0pSyBFpC5eY+BidwK3l+qiQ=; b=Cdrmt/FHQRoVc/IjV+tFjHOSBlms/XNjRWgmygDZnKgCISrmBic1WGA/1TRQ/a82rk vfWfA59MgpDUIewtEPOAY0Sy4M3RSlI8AYmDdsQ5PMbWzncdhTANcSIz8HIokLbfaEHX 0DsIgzuWpY1uQ/vmgX4f31Pod593pwj1uZZD7annhlZ/sjT5R1/bm2ePP/mZwPbyHgmK 5s4/UcWpq9GGQ9wNHKzZfSG50bH+jtwe7alPoGwJaBs+V79reM0Z/GQV/8/wscSE5+ew Ma5GjjCKjM3Dwxze2uK2yFO9oSQue5z7nAA5Q08BwH7mqnLClJ/chNEEfKOkYUNP+wI/ kXFg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.89.102 with SMTP id bn6mr7362543obb.7.1344022448296; Fri, 03 Aug 2012 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.151.3 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> References: <501871FD.601@rawbw.com> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:34:08 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: kpRvSULcDVTHMt2kyccXSojFpFc Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Yuri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to diagnose system freezes? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 19:34:09 -0000 The way to diagnose this problem is to cut your system back to the bare minimum set of options/modules and see if it still hangs. That means no sound, no graphics/video, USB if you don't have any other option. Then add each device at a time until it starts to misbehave. You could try say, disabling sound (removing the sound device from the kernel and not loading the modules), then see if it still happens. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 4 18:19:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A94F106566C for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:19:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ryao@gentoo.org) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95C58FC12 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:19:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (pool-72-89-250-138.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [72.89.250.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ryao) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E874F1B4007 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:19:30 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <501D671F.6050904@gentoo.org> Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 14:17:03 -0400 From: Richard Yao User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:10.0.5) Gecko/20120628 Thunderbird/10.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hackers@FreeBSD.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigCF1BDC78E5715FE5A1AA728B" Cc: Subject: [PATCH] Enable out-of-tree kernel module compilation with GNU xargs in $PATH X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 18:19:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigCF1BDC78E5715FE5A1AA728B Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080506090609070404010209" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080506090609070404010209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am working on a port of a Linux kernel module to FreeBSD. I decided to rebase on FreeBSD 9.1-BETA1. I installed Gentoo Prefix so that I would be able to work on this port in a more familiar development environment. Unfortunately, there is an issue where /usr/src/sys/conf/kmod.mk invokes xargs with -J, which Gentoo Prefix's GNU xargs does not support. I have written a patch for kmod.mk that will attempt shell substitution in place of xargs when the current command that relies on xargs fails. There are probably other ways of addressing this, but I just would like this to work without requiring a patch to the system sources. --------------080506090609070404010209 Content-Type: text/plain; name="patch-kmod.mk" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="patch-kmod.mk" --- /usr/src/sys/conf/kmod.mk.orig 2012-08-02 23:49:09.749192513 -0400 +++ /usr/src/sys/conf/kmod.mk 2012-08-04 08:57:25.719110508 -0400 @@ -217,7 +217,8 @@ ${FULLPROG}: ${OBJS} grep -v '^#' < ${EXPORT_SYMS} > export_syms .endif awk -f ${SYSDIR}/conf/kmod_syms.awk ${.TARGET} \ - export_syms | xargs -J% ${OBJCOPY} % ${.TARGET} + export_syms | xargs -J% ${OBJCOPY} % ${.TARGET} || \ + ${OBJCOPY} $(awk -f ${SYSDIR}/conf/kmod_syms.awk ${.TARGET} export_= syms) ${.TARGET} .endif .endif .if !defined(DEBUG_FLAGS) && ${__KLD_SHARED} =3D=3D no --------------080506090609070404010209-- --------------enigCF1BDC78E5715FE5A1AA728B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQHWclAAoJECDuEZm+6ExkbNIP/jK0O7GwAETGWt/Qsn9lZEpA bVkKqrjNVAIJ8FoDVejrIv1810GF5ZU7v59ccUDCuAXMAzdz+RVBtl0SQe2qzH26 X9L0Xv70Ptt6DS23nGTDzCDx7CgwM6Od4PZGEbzHgo+hMV5ueG9CR/DazH75DKAR XboLRrT+6jv4BsKJm5cVHpfcQgU6kAyUgMJstv4CqUiu+4pRSZOdm0taVmPfCw6F Im2+/2pGa4xq4WqdGVIcWctMYMNpZKiskITIoaCdNDlX7xEnWthWU2dHD8ed5h8k kJZYNBXf/Hw/iTSaKMrm9C8Rs0Fd3oS4G1vwYDI7t6UCcIATsYKGRnySzTZGcqR2 gQLZv+qRGpiV0RF0T8cvUgUr66Jfhm+vDpw5DCk5b7QgYpD6osZhDrKOYrtxZRW4 J73H55GN+Q5qVXtzJFKIVlCf+GSskZNP41qurQfQ2Wr9UikE3SctcVWxHiJD8o1F sOr7cK4T/iG7HDYu+xqew97ImjHjB3ZPMrK71Ejo4d1UJsnpD6UDx7lXFcYaKszT 7y23v/rPQHkpHg96FQl2nu0P+rcGddJAHpisXxgF/Y3XCnx0F0h7vaotqwcREfaG dMzL2uRb8O+RwZ0XXQ1agIomnmfHhqU8TXn0J7PXiEV2eWicCYT4Rtz4k1Nt+3V1 kgaUKI+jySFEyyz71hAt =x9nP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigCF1BDC78E5715FE5A1AA728B-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 4 19:21:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF4D106564A for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:21:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Received: from monday.kientzle.com (99-115-135-74.uvs.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [99.115.135.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605338FC0C for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:21:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from root@localhost) by monday.kientzle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) id q74JLOdo069907 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:21:24 GMT (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.2.143] (CiscoE3000 [192.168.1.65]) by kientzle.com with SMTP id k4j6kepp79iu9y9ejditzn7tf6; for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:21:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kientzle@freebsd.org) From: Tim Kientzle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 12:21:23 -0700 Message-Id: To: freebsd-hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Subject: How to Expose Chip-level Ethernet Statistics? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:21:32 -0000 I believe that some of the issues I'm having with this Ethernet driver might be easier to diagnose if I could expose the chip-level statistics counters (especially queue overrun counts). Is there a standard way to do this? I've looked at systat, netstat, and ifconfig but haven't yet found a standard tool that queries this sort of information. (If I could find that, I could figure out which ioctl it used=85) Pointers appreciated=85 In particular, if there's another Ethernet driver that does this well, I can use that for a reference. Tim From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 4 19:53:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BB1106564A for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.64]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4723C8FC0C for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:53:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.59]) by qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id igUc1j00A1GXsucA7jrvWi; Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:51:55 +0000 Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org ([24.8.232.202]) by omta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ijru1j00D4NgCEG8UjrvGi; Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:51:55 +0000 Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q74JpreW005352; Sat, 4 Aug 2012 13:51:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: Tim Kientzle In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 13:51:52 -0600 Message-ID: <1344109912.1128.94.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: How to Expose Chip-level Ethernet Statistics? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:53:01 -0000 On Sat, 2012-08-04 at 12:21 -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote: > I believe that some of the issues I'm having with this > Ethernet driver might be easier to diagnose if I could > expose the chip-level statistics counters (especially queue > overrun counts). > > Is there a standard way to do this? > > I've looked at systat, netstat, and ifconfig but haven't > yet found a standard tool that queries this sort of > information. (If I could find that, I could figure out > which ioctl it used…) > > Pointers appreciated… In particular, if there's another > Ethernet driver that does this well, I can use that for a > reference. > > Tim I don't know if this is exactly what you mean, but have a look at src/tools/tools/ifinfo, and find some examples of drivers that fill in that info by grepping for ifmib_iso_8802_3. (I really know nothing about this stuff, except that your request triggered a memory that the atmel if_ate driver gathers some stats that I've not seen in most other drivers.) -- Ian