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Date:      Sun, 04 Mar 2012 00:51:10 -0800
From:      perryh@pluto.rain.com
To:        freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org
Cc:        stable@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: flowtable usable or not
Message-ID:  <4f532cfe.QgEyYT6tgG2JPvGA%perryh@pluto.rain.com>
In-Reply-To: <1330793788.10695.60.camel@revolution.hippie.lan>
References:  <20120221143537.Horde.deyFDZjmRSRPQ52pxBIpnLA@webmail.leidinger.net> <BA7FFA2D-DEE6-4FB7-AE26-0BC79CBFD8C0@lists.zabbadoz.net> <4F4BA707.5070608@wasikowski.net> <4F4C3FE7.3040802@FreeBSD.org> <CACqU3MWx3pMMDncvOita-OAgfe=NPKtwKE2WeB_mdcYwozY81Q@mail.gmail.com> <4F4D51CB.2010508@FreeBSD.org> <4F4D5E5D.9040302@FreeBSD.org> <4F4DD288.5060106@FreeBSD.org> <CAHM0Q_O%2BCt6yhRL=B9oxgkL8EgLxZdo7-KFO2C8HqiN1=Kx_bw@mail.gmail.com> <4F4ED889.2070608@FreeBSD.org> <4F500BB9.4040307@FreeBSD.org> <CAHM0Q_OfeB7Kb=pgjGq0uffLJdJROGoCaGz=25Jito-kweAxRQ@mail.gmail.com> <4F5088CA.1090108@FreeBSD.org> <CAHM0Q_MZM6Gn_zPzxz5tLuzPOW=kK9YxqmrLTyitvGfAPhrkbw@mail.gmail.com> <4F510FBD.50008@FreeBSD.org> <4F513B2D.6010809@FreeBSD.org> <4F5148A7.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <4F51BDDA.3020602@hm.net.br> <4f525035.FeXsLHWGEs0tQIdS%perryh@pluto.rain.com> <1330793788.10695.60.camel@revolution.hippie.lan>

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Ian Lepore <freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 09:09 -0800, perryh@pluto.rain.com wrote:
> > H <hm@hm.net.br> wrote:
> > > ... Forever installing FreeBSD Desktop, either KDE or Gnome,
> > > was a nightmare process, or better, to make it appear on screen
> > > was a nightmare.
> > 
> > I have never understood the point of KDE or Gnome, other than
> > (perhaps) as eye candy for the uninitiated.  If I wanted a
> > Windows desktop, I would install Windows.  If I wanted a Mac
> > desktop, I would use a Mac.
>
> I've been getting paid to develop software since 1975 --

Same here (approximately).

> Maybe you long for a return to punch cards and fanfold greenbar
> paper, but I'm not going back there.

I think we've both been around long enough to know that even an
ADM-3 or a 3270 is a step up from "punch cards and fanfold greenbar
paper".  The second step up is screen(1), and AFAIK no one is
advocating a "return" even to that level of functionality, much
less to anything more primitive.

The next improvement is huge, and costly:  high-resolution display
hardware, and the software (X11, xterm, basic window manager) to
handle it.  That provides the capability to use multiple windows --
to see several ptys at the same time instead of being able to see
only one and having to remember what's on the rest.  I think most of
us would agree that, costly as this upgrade is, it is justified for
most desktop systems.

Once we have the high-resolution display capability, it becomes
possible to add graphics-based productivity apps like a PDF viewer,
web browser, word processor, calendar, drawing programs, etc.
I _know_ it is possible to run all that with nothing more than X11
and the same basic window manager, because I do it on a daily basis.
The question remains:  what more does KDE or Gnome bloatware provide,
other than eye candy?

> It's exactly because I don't want a Windows or Mac desktop that
> I use gnome.

Last I saw, Gnome was a way to make an otherwise perfectly good
X-windows desktop look like MacOS X.  Again, what's the point?
What does Gnome give you, that twm or fvwm2 would not?



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