From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 17 20:24:12 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5B2299 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:24:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D50F10B for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:24:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p57A3943B.dip.t-dialin.net [87.163.148.59]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F955844064 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from unknown (Titan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.17]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C709F6A33 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:24:01 +0100 From: Alexander Leidinger To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.0cvs12 (GTK+ 2.16.6; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 5F955844064.AFEAC X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.127, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL -0.12, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1364156643.68237@HnnpNDTZFVf8+tksOHd2SQ X-EBL-Spam-Status: No X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:24:12 -0000 Hi, does someone know about some kind of statistics which compare the number of ports/packages on Linux distros? I search something which makes sense to compare with the number of our ports, not something which takes e.g. "qt4" and "qt4 includes" as different entities. Yes, I know that even such a number is like apples and oranges, as the "linux base system" consists of packages too, and that the "linux base system" may contain stuff which we have in ports. The idea is to have something which may be useful in rapid-prototyping discussions. Please CC me in replies. Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 17 20:32:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E9F627 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:32:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhellenthal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-x230.google.com (mail-ie0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::230]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55039173 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:32:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id k13so6134158iea.7 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:32:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:sender:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to; bh=edqPOyUNYpKi0zxowx4sKWJBj561ScFgy+VjTPtTaD0=; b=Yp3hH/G+tDxsDEzkGVt/RbdGkcGlvcWaF/mO+X4afFEnduDOEahzrEw/pJAFJnTcO9 sYT1m8RN1Iw197IY8LhciJHzfMrFe0TwH1fVJ41VSIkR80QgNF2vHxyWtzHcqpuTB4hM HqVZgB8nT9SOJ1e8kz6zww3a9NrDaHaIBxeb0r3o5qx8K2imeAONlmCECqnL1T7vicaY sP1UMNDYAMSjr+01iM3zwrYqgIXm8MU+E4XYUItWyzSkcByNYxRd0SOlhydD0tOiSMWY a3U3l5LiRbmDwIn0QB42bYu6pb0hX5DXku4U3ZhQV38lbFa8sP+bdjkwlK5WceB1ah14 sVqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dataix.net; s=rsa; h=x-received:sender:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to; bh=edqPOyUNYpKi0zxowx4sKWJBj561ScFgy+VjTPtTaD0=; b=PWJhu3ItRHDwvk3ID+E7mhA4Hf3EMytNyhVqzx0MqiSf2A9x/2dgXkmBamj/IFXz+E amEoLHLbmzaevxjzJpexvbYKN4Y9xodQyyONfe+6MA5KzzK5Qytl1djze54TdM5C64Eo 5StTfL93xbty6IunDoZq9QD8m5eBqKSJFTbWg= X-Received: by 10.50.34.132 with SMTP id z4mr4924974igi.32.1363552367031; Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DataIX.net (24-231-147-188.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com. [24.231.147.188]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xd4sm7849914igb.3.2013.03.17.13.32.45 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Jason Hellenthal Received: from [192.168.31.240] ([192.168.31.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by DataIX.net (8.14.6/8.14.6) with ESMTP id r2HKWg6M002484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:32:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhellenthal@DataIX.net) References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C176D65-D54A-4173-A342-79DBC3DE34E4@DataIX.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10B146) From: Jason Hellenthal Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:32:42 -0400 To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 20:32:47 -0000 At which distro/flavor etc should a comparison begin to be made... RH ? Suse ? Cent ? Debian ? Mandrake ? Slackware ? Ubuntu ? Or any one of th= e other flavoring... Seems like a loss of time if you ask me. --=20 Jason Hellenthal JJH48-ARIN - (2^(N-1)) On Mar 17, 2013, at 16:24, Alexander Leidinger wro= te: > Hi, >=20 > does someone know about some kind of statistics which compare the > number of ports/packages on Linux distros? I search something which > makes sense to compare with the number of our ports, not something which > takes e.g. "qt4" and "qt4 includes" as different entities. >=20 > Yes, I know that even such a number is like apples and oranges, as the > "linux base system" consists of packages too, and that the "linux base > system" may contain stuff which we have in ports. >=20 > The idea is to have something which may be useful in rapid-prototyping > discussions. >=20 > Please CC me in replies. >=20 > Bye, > Alexander. >=20 > --=20 > http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D B0063FE7= > http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D 72077137= > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 02:06:49 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE3E59A for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F44E57 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.60.213.211] (173-13-112-142-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.13.112.142]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2I26ZeG012600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:38 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:06:30 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> To: Alexander Leidinger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:06:49 -0000 It's quite difficult to do meaningful comparisons. For example, we have = a port for gcc 4.7, but Debian has, last time I counted, over ten = distinct packages for each GCC release. There are other places where we = have split things up into multiple ports, but other operating systems = use a single one. David On 17 Mar 2013, at 16:24, Alexander Leidinger = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > does someone know about some kind of statistics which compare the > number of ports/packages on Linux distros? I search something which > makes sense to compare with the number of our ports, not something = which > takes e.g. "qt4" and "qt4 includes" as different entities. >=20 > Yes, I know that even such a number is like apples and oranges, as the > "linux base system" consists of packages too, and that the "linux base > system" may contain stuff which we have in ports. >=20 > The idea is to have something which may be useful in rapid-prototyping > discussions. >=20 > Please CC me in replies. >=20 > Bye, > Alexander. >=20 > --=20 > http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D = B0063FE7 > http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D = 72077137 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 11:09:23 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440D4721; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:09:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094C0CF6; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:09:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A00C65E; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:42:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 85C3A9B31; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:42:36 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: David Chisnall Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:42:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: (David Chisnall's message of "Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:06:30 -0400") Message-ID: <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:09:23 -0000 David Chisnall writes: > It's quite difficult to do meaningful comparisons. For example, we > have a port for gcc 4.7, but Debian has, last time I counted, over ten > distinct packages for each GCC release. There are other places where > we have split things up into multiple ports, but other operating > systems use a single one. I don't think there are many such cases. The reverse is far more common: Linux distros usually ship separate packages for libraries, binaries, documentation and headers (and so should we). You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 11:33:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1D9E7E; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295FD186; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:33:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62892C9E6; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:33:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 23B74A0AD; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:19 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: David Chisnall Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?= =?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Mon, 18 Mar 2013 09:42:34 +0100") Message-ID: <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:33:20 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our side > and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as the ports tree (~24k ports). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 12:04:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A4C639; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-x22d.google.com (mail-ie0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22d]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D02D6AB; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:04:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 9so6854846iec.4 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=0meDy78bns5JX0sKDJnVKZUrwdnk5zEGxpKWJFGX8ew=; b=EWLuhOslNiCf91Ho6BHuTRTbnfCibvRLolFv7hhK11ymzydDqJZUrm7gvApHI6Z2Sq 7Ih5OXzUwj8b8a9XhRBRJAAzr2Rf/5JLCRoPsvr6ugHrVLP/4knfQSzZ3O1r/3frtbFu Y4tOqPXCFOK3zejd6ba7ImJVMWrG3qdNBJHZBugUmmVzpIIDpNTtZD29njjK6mRqeRxU zs+5toksmUI/L0LX1k+NLzAG4lNNpHFCeWbXZ3litaPDnA5acWCX62GBeFAh7xCmgS+g /doATv4D1bDuCAZnf9M6HRkmI3abPSze0db6hIUeStsSzwcYi+y3Pw+X5o571NbPlP70 dKmg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.95.146 with SMTP id f18mr9035114icn.9.1363608260356; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.107.162 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:04:20 -0000 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 4:33 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrot= e: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our side > > and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no > > > For me , actually , important problem is "How many packages are supplied with a distribution .iso ?" This point is important , because when a distribution is installed , whether it will produce a workable / usable environment for a (i) server , or (ii) desktop user . I am continuously installing many Linux distributions . Approximately they are supplying 2000 packages per distribution . With respect to selected features ( Desktop , Development , Education , etc. ) , the installed packages is varying between 1000 to 2500 . After completion of installation , it is possible to use the installed system without making any parameter adjustments . I am using KDE . The only required adjustments are the following ( for me ) : >From KDE Settings ( when I try Gnome from its menus ) : Disable screen saver , Disable power saving , Disable gesture , etc. usage , Enable removable media automatic mount In Dolphin ( File Manager ) : Enable double click to activate a selection , Select view mode as detailed , Select displayed file attributes , etc. These are the same for FreeBSD also ( except enable of automatic mount of removable media , selections are ignored ) . The rest in FreeBSD is a nightmare : As it is installed : Install many packages by pkg_add . When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . As a result : Only an unusable installation is generated . For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during install , there is NO any way to install them . It is necessary to be an "Expert" to be able to install them . This structure is driving the FreeBSD in http://distrowatch.com/ "Page Hit Ranking" around 500 at the ranking greater than 20 ( means a small user base with respecto total Linux user base ) . With this installation structure ( not the installer program / script ) , FreeBSD can not be widely adopted , because of like or dislike of it , but not being able to use it . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 13:42:37 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E440F54; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:42:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F81AFC; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:42:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8923CB69; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:42:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8557EA0BD; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:35 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk's message of "Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700") Message-ID: <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:42:37 -0000 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: > Install many packages by pkg_add . > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during > install , there is NO any way to install them . because of this: http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 14:40:57 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C5EB275; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:40:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vb0-x22e.google.com (mail-vb0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c02::22e]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82E5E9B; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:40:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vb0-f46.google.com with SMTP id b13so3400426vby.5 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=R1rDhUauuveQpCBEGFVw9sMClgKzDyqyq40riffKAhY=; b=JbJUprVi4WIDAASEdiNXNSgZik/N5Sv+foDsItecucqd+l3ftAR45Iik5sHCC4CYoa gDY2wRELGm6f6agWWY52afrcJddkLRrrfazJ11CPat+Si9kcEOrbCamZFoqk7nmFMH6E tTzw4dZ1taeLex1LcmU2Us1nhB/O7/vqwVqiRvcBgKWFPnjQCArroHGXsUwJFNN7syno XMIRiyQPaC/I51kbwZx42AJOWlrhyuhoKKZH6EFn4Y6qzTYgH1y5n04j6BFxY4SeauZ/ vwWMmKOsJNG40vZHDKmS1OLTfeVG0bZdAimJqPaWymfr3DxJqwjp/LaYYpZDQu7PD/EX s+Ww== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.24.114 with SMTP id t18mr17057750vdf.62.1363617655103; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.132.203 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:40:57 -0000 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrot= e: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: > > Install many packages by pkg_add . > > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : > > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . > > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . > > That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a > functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. > The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to > talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. > > > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during > > install , there is NO any way to install them . > > because of this: > > http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html > > We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) > to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with > a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no > Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD . All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their products . My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , and used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners . For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are new beginners ) . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 15:14:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49473BD1 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:14:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris.benesch@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f49.google.com (mail-pb0-f49.google.com [209.85.160.49]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2078E197 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f49.google.com with SMTP id xa12so6408867pbc.8 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s5QrHqDnNbM1UrFX9A3Ei8KWo0WcEiIyoX/pX9uS5Cc=; b=o2lMSR4+cDi6fbkC6GfjGxtsTOjcmacBTlUymcJguNZs2DrPMxpzpFy3cX3SrWWRGQ CT7MP0Jv2ZjNViCikO8pvv8oM4sTI8hUCnwEZZoGj1LlQViARD+srYtrTPSace0cnUyc 3KyLMPX9VQQzjbnOw0jx9HVONUa8WQj+HonilpE+S+xKncDhmVI7yIqLVuo27mwZ5qJ2 IpjGgOnrHJ6sdntjyi+s/FLbXTcRoSN34erPmDLSMD1hZdPBW7ziCxIaaPR3qqPB7Ycu onmyN9WEhWHhljlt2OfszSlcTSn2JRM56AbzWySJxNII/CiU/q27GDWwe4AytaAaqAx8 bQkw== X-Received: by 10.68.196.193 with SMTP id io1mr33685547pbc.196.1363619661172; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:67:3a3:fcde:2820:c694:cc1e? ([2001:470:67:3a3:fcde:2820:c694:cc1e]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xc4sm20480345pbc.41.2013.03.18.08.14.18 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51472F55.5030503@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:29 -0700 From: Chris Benesch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:14:22 -0000 On 3/18/2013 7:40 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > >> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: >>> Install many packages by pkg_add . >>> When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : >>> Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . >>> To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . >> That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a >> functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. >> The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to >> talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. >> >>> For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during >>> install , there is NO any way to install them . >> because of this: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html >> >> We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) >> to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with >> a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. >> >> DES >> -- >> Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no >> > > Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very > valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD . > > All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their > products . > > > My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , and > used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the > beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of > "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners . > > > For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are new > beginners ) . > > Thank you very much . > > > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I would think that distributions like PC-BSD would address issues like a recommended package group, which are aimed at consumer desktop users. I have been out of the Linux world for a while, relying on BSD for my *nix needs, but from what I remember, and comparing to Free or Open BSD, the difference is night and day. Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference comes from a basic philosophical difference. BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, the license is quick and easy, and all of the software comes with all sources and headers included. Even things that are notoriously closed source like Java. Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Maybe it is to appeal to a wider market of suppliers and users so that more software can be ported, but we have seen that doesnt really work out that way. The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually read it instead of just saying yes. The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. That and the packaging. Linux has an "I'll do it all for you, you dont have to make any decisions" approach to its installer vs. BSDs "Heres what you should do, but go ahead and change it if you want" approach. The various offshoots of BSD aimed at desktop users have a good idea, but personally I think they are overreaching. Myself if I were to engage in one of those projects, I would number the versions along with the version of FreeBSD I was supporting (9.1, etc...), nobody wants v 1.1 anymore, rewrite the installer to run in an SVGA driven X environment (everyone supports VBE now, we dont have to be backwards compatible to 1991, and if for some reason it doesnt work, there is always good ol text mode). Make the bootloader play nice with Windoze, and install a set of recommended packages that has for example a KDE or Gnome setup with email, office/productivity tools, a base set of multimedia player (and yes, lets get over the butthurt over MP3 support, it should do that out of the box) and codecs, and some cool looking themes and I think we could get good consumer market penetration. Couple that with a good marketing campaign, some real life testimonials, and maybe a deal with an OEM like Tigerdirect or Frys to have PCs shipped with it preinstalled, and you would see it walk over Linux in a heartbeat. Lets face it, we have the better product, no? Heck I'll put myself out as the l33t rebel so the maketing can appeal to the script kiddies too, LULZ. Anyway, just my $.02 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 15:55:17 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C726C for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:55:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4BD615 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:55:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp-int.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3108ACDCD; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:55:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F0143A0D3; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:55:15 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Chris Benesch Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> <51472F55.5030503@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:55:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: <51472F55.5030503@gmail.com> (Chris Benesch's message of "Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:29 -0700") Message-ID: <864ng866u4.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:55:17 -0000 Chris Benesch writes: > Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc > port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, > etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, > kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference > comes from a basic philosophical difference. Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging symbols etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default. However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS). > BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...] > Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs. > The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually > read it instead of just saying yes. It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just skip the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty. > The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings > appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it > was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors > vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. Neither characterization is correct. (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of the FreeBSD project) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 19:20:08 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C69D71D for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:20:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris.benesch@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f41.google.com (mail-pb0-f41.google.com [209.85.160.41]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56886328 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:20:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id um15so6706364pbc.0 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=X/DOlfVUulOx6i4nB7PhjYJVwBlkBoNm2IwLJrAfIeU=; b=lq/VR+inHnSlcbFNEC7j95BmyJQgnvEIBZ5LJ+wP96EwiaviB695k9Zrm5F90W2CaX zDyAoolJep8kVUo6IeFCFeZYvQIsvBVllBiHh2pEfwFs4LlQ6yvV9NPL2yTdCPo5zQnb G9l4wpDRn5rJ27y5auXYlD/OXU7uwFoAP0LmBnb6TyjHcGr/ob2PJ76xVMPkLBtOZu2x ppYOxQ7aQ7fZOt3foyzesSoWikiPxynHoPSsHp3Rb9mkoItBK/TKUIxyqIgIpBDuLomQ pgP1cHs9sJrfqP1VkIYxs1nnhpUFfsvre2ESRfMfveYt7S3t9JGxBJ3pRjg7iYxjUe1k NtKA== X-Received: by 10.69.1.70 with SMTP id be6mr35637066pbd.185.1363634407709; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:67:3a3:fcde:2820:c694:cc1e? ([2001:470:67:3a3:fcde:2820:c694:cc1e]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm21139292pbn.23.2013.03.18.12.20.04 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <514768F0.2050008@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:16 -0700 From: Chris Benesch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> <51472F55.5030503@gmail.com> <864ng866u4.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <864ng866u4.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:20:08 -0000 On 3/18/2013 8:55 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Chris Benesch writes: >> Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc >> port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, >> etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, >> kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference >> comes from a basic philosophical difference. > Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging symbols > etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux > distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default. > However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run > 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum > groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS). > >> BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...] >> Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. > Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be > summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs. > >> The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually >> read it instead of just saying yes. > It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to > express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just skip > the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty. > >> The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings >> appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it >> was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors >> vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. > Neither characterization is correct. > > (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of the > FreeBSD project) > > DES The last time I did any Linux sys admin stuff was back before yum and apt-get, so it looks like things have improved. I didnt mean to sound geographically prejudicial, just my impression since the 90s and early 2000s. Heck I'd love to go see the northern extremes of Europe someday. Honestly every year I do an upgrade where I get invovled in all of it for a few weeks, then go quiet while the box silently and flawlessly runs next to me. We are on the same team, and I cant thank the whole team enough for making and continuing to maintain the extraordinary software I myself and tons of people have come to rely on daily. Politics really isnt my thing, I write code for a living. Maybe I should just stay there. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 19:58:23 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3279A149; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:58:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BB16F2; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:58:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (pD9FBB732.dip.t-dialin.net [217.251.183.50]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C92F84408E; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:58:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from unknown (Titan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.17]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B616AFF; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:58:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:58:15 +0100 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> In-Reply-To: <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.0cvs12 (GTK+ 2.16.6; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 7C92F84408E.A2C67 X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.908, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL 0.10, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1364241499.11566@xQcS6RMmqZaO9Wtvtm/gCA X-EBL-Spam-Status: No Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:58:23 -0000 On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. >=20 > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as > the ports tree (~24k ports). Thanks, this is something which helps. Bye, Alexander. --=20 http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D 72077137 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 21:42:31 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122EFD32 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:42:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vc0-f173.google.com (mail-vc0-f173.google.com [209.85.220.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D43DC3 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:42:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id gd11so3363973vcb.4 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=cQwGvYd7kuWhKMdAo0a0VtIUHgxBNvYMbDouSmZMrL4=; b=j3gjfBwSDu9nznqgSjWDh8crIjddRk0BjQCJd1YNUskjEcO6xHiuUNcFnaieFEH9o7 /KMBAvg4MJN0vDjri5u20coExcFuytset3pUVdal0PZjEpWXID2q1L5dEO5l9OAiu193 CEkD8wb709JizxjxGoKATnj95nemJrLsLHAiOiksyp5Haeir34hKZiYLyIX9r49XY086 Z54D3wtEP5E+avLbBZsf96FnA0PeRg/y7wFbUcFY+JVJZblLfyLuwe4whpbu9CR49RPo +u7ZzbRYDjjdEd68ATeiuJS32oK2btkYBVg64EjZWHUCB3kVfJeQnFdbo53sjxy81v9t vWNg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.29.116 with SMTP id j20mr19748628vdh.16.1363642949918; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.132.203 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:29 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Alexander Leidinger Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcODwrhyZ3Jhdg==?= , advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:42:31 -0000 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger < Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=83=C2=B8rgrav wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as > > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > Thanks, this is something which helps. > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > > Some package lists : ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/distrib/2/x86_64/media/core/release/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/core/os/x86_64/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/extra/os/x86_64/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/centos/6.4/os/x86_64/Packages/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/suse/x86_64/ http://packages.debian.org/stable/ https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/stats/?_csrf_token=3D4dbd43afddf475f0= efeaee2e2223fa77b781c0bb ftp://ftp.scientificlinux.org/linux/scientific/6.3/x86_64/os/Packages/ It seems that Debian-based distributions do not have an "All" list , but only categorized lists . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 18 23:26:45 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2EB3EE6 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ve0-f179.google.com (mail-ve0-f179.google.com [209.85.128.179]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900B835B for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:26:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ve0-f179.google.com with SMTP id da11so4974611veb.10 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1/ddnBFy+pFjLmfiyG/7jYjutXDzlqqUyBGBaqNuAAY=; b=CjFe8bHUVQCEYVjZxU0nbEjK0d9oB0hrpJ+CH1lhjg3cgewJEGIwjcdI+lYikv517R GaTUNnTxRUIdoe6LtF2zKFlDGMW/Au7r9XuBieUMzP8YkKqvmEqnjZ5dZwK/JajDjZy0 BhZ5L8z6rkkXt3iGK/DfLTiSLQmp2LJDu2pWFXT9j2xRKPk+mLs26tsQaR2QhVfPMbzg gjS6nw3/KASaixOcNP5rUyn5FfWrwyi3YpwYp8SGpdw3st7u3GxO6Zov7pMZRAYaldV1 janMK6oB4WzVPklNIGbs5TBk0UrnMmZYUgAm+9wlK3q8eDPN8gIyD9vbG6nqIRNWC82+ hE+w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.27.17 with SMTP id p17mr19831674vdg.0.1363649198311; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.132.203 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> References: <20130317212401.0000376f@unknown> <86vc8p5cat.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86li9l54e9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Alexander Leidinger Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcODwrhyZ3Jhdg==?= , advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 23:26:45 -0000 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger < Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=83=C2=B8rgrav wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as > > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > Thanks, this is something which helps. > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > > Some Linux Distribution DVD ( x86_64 ) Package counts : Fedora 18 : 4165 OpenSuse 12.3 : 4206 Mageia 2 : 4386 CentOS 6.4 DVD1 : 3956 Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 19 20:39:16 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38ECBC08 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:39:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvatore@oems.ch) Received: from mxout006.mail.hostpoint.ch (mxout006.mail.hostpoint.ch [IPv6:2a00:d70:0:e::326]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F131611 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:39:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.2.10] (helo=asmtp001.mail.hostpoint.ch) by mxout006.mail.hostpoint.ch with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1UI3JR-000Onf-V1 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:39:14 +0100 Received: from [62.167.235.219] (helo=OEMSPC03) by asmtp001.mail.hostpoint.ch with esmtpa (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1UI3IW-000GTb-Il for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:39:13 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender-Id: oemssag5@oems.ch From: "Salvatore Albanese" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: R: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:38:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01ce24e1$ae8e0e70$0baa2b50$@ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac4kmU/vrbKkcqu4TQy6xe0yXv7zBwAOl/oQ Content-Language: it-ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:39:16 -0000 -----Messaggio originale----- Da: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] Per conto di freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org Inviato: marted=EC, 19. marzo 2013 13:00 A: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Oggetto: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2 Send freebsd-advocacy mailing list submissions to freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org You can reach the person managing the list at freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of freebsd-advocacy digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) 2. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav) 3. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) 4. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Chris Benesch) 5. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav) 6. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Chris Benesch) 7. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Alexander Leidinger) 8. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) 9. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 4:33 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav writes: > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our=20 > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k=20 > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as=20 > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > > > For me , actually , important problem is "How many packages are supplied with a distribution .iso ?" This point is important , because when a distribution is installed , whether it will produce a workable / usable environment for a (i) = server , or (ii) desktop user . I am continuously installing many Linux distributions . Approximately = they are supplying 2000 packages per distribution . With respect to selected features ( Desktop , Development , Education , etc. ) , the installed packages is varying between 1000 to 2500 . After completion of installation , it is possible to use the installed system without making any parameter adjustments . I am using KDE . The = only required adjustments are the following ( for me ) : >From KDE Settings ( when I try Gnome from its menus ) : Disable screen saver , Disable power saving , Disable gesture , etc. usage , Enable removable media automatic mount In Dolphin ( File Manager ) : Enable double click to activate a selection , Select view mode as = detailed , Select displayed file attributes , etc. These are the same for FreeBSD also ( except enable of automatic mount = of removable media , selections are ignored ) . The rest in FreeBSD is a nightmare : As it is installed : Install many packages by pkg_add . When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . As a result : Only an unusable installation is generated . For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during = install , there is NO any way to install them . It is necessary to be an "Expert" to be able to install them . This structure is driving the FreeBSD in http://distrowatch.com/ "Page Hit Ranking" around 500 at the ranking greater than 20 ( means a = small user base with respecto total Linux user base ) . With this installation structure ( not the installer program / script ) = , FreeBSD can not be widely adopted , because of like or dislike of it , = but not being able to use it . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:35 +0100 From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav To: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: > Install many packages by pkg_add . > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to = talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during=20 > install , there is NO any way to install them . because of this: http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) = to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with a = full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. DES -- Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Cc: Alexander Leidinger , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: > > Install many packages by pkg_add . > > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : > > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . > > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . > > That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a > functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. > The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to > talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. > > > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during > > install , there is NO any way to install them . > > because of this: > > http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html > > We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) > to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship = with > a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD . All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their products . My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , and used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners . For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are = new beginners ) . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:29 -0700 From: Chris Benesch To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <51472F55.5030503@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed On 3/18/2013 7:40 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav = wrote: > >> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: >>> Install many packages by pkg_add . >>> When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : >>> Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . >>> To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . >> That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a >> functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. >> The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets = to >> talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. >> >>> For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during >>> install , there is NO any way to install them . >> because of this: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html >> >> We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some = cases) >> to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship = with >> a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. >> >> DES >> -- >> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no >> > > Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very > valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD . > > All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their > products . > > > My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , = and > used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the > beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of > "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners . > > > For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are = new > beginners ) . > > Thank you very much . > > > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I would think that distributions like PC-BSD would address issues like a = recommended package group, which are aimed at consumer desktop users. I = have been out of the Linux world for a while, relying on BSD for my *nix = needs, but from what I remember, and comparing to Free or Open BSD, the=20 difference is night and day. Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc = on BSD, you need the gcc port and a few support packages, such as=20 readline, gettext, intl, etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc,=20 gcc-devel, gcc-headers, kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more=20 complex. The difference comes from a basic philosophical difference. BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, the license is quick and easy,=20 and all of the software comes with all sources and headers included. =20 Even things that are notoriously closed source like Java. Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Maybe it is = to appeal to a wider market of suppliers and users so that more software = can be ported, but we have seen that doesnt really work out that way. =20 The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually read = it instead of just saying yes. The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings=20 appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it=20 was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors vs. = a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. That and the=20 packaging. Linux has an "I'll do it all for you, you dont have to make=20 any decisions" approach to its installer vs. BSDs "Heres what you should = do, but go ahead and change it if you want" approach. The various offshoots of BSD aimed at desktop users have a good idea,=20 but personally I think they are overreaching. Myself if I were to=20 engage in one of those projects, I would number the versions along with=20 the version of FreeBSD I was supporting (9.1, etc...), nobody wants v=20 1.1 anymore, rewrite the installer to run in an SVGA driven X=20 environment (everyone supports VBE now, we dont have to be backwards=20 compatible to 1991, and if for some reason it doesnt work, there is=20 always good ol text mode). Make the bootloader play nice with Windoze,=20 and install a set of recommended packages that has for example a KDE or=20 Gnome setup with email, office/productivity tools, a base set of=20 multimedia player (and yes, lets get over the butthurt over MP3 support, = it should do that out of the box) and codecs, and some cool looking=20 themes and I think we could get good consumer market penetration. Couple that with a good marketing campaign, some real life testimonials, = and maybe a deal with an OEM like Tigerdirect or Frys to have PCs=20 shipped with it preinstalled, and you would see it walk over Linux in a=20 heartbeat. Lets face it, we have the better product, no? Heck I'll put = myself out as the l33t rebel so the maketing can appeal to the script=20 kiddies too, LULZ. Anyway, just my $.02 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:55:15 +0100 From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav To: Chris Benesch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <864ng866u4.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 Chris Benesch writes: > Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc > port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, > etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, > kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference > comes from a basic philosophical difference. Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging symbols etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default. However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS). > BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...] > Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs. > The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually > read it instead of just saying yes. It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just skip the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty. > The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings > appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it > was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors > vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. Neither characterization is correct. (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of the FreeBSD project) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:16 -0700 From: Chris Benesch To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <514768F0.2050008@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed On 3/18/2013 8:55 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Chris Benesch writes: >> Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc >> port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, >> etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, >> kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference >> comes from a basic philosophical difference. > Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging = symbols > etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux > distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default. > However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run > 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum > groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS). > >> BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...] >> Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. > Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be > summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs. > >> The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually >> read it instead of just saying yes. > It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to > express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just = skip > the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty. > >> The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious = beginnings >> appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality = it >> was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors >> vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. > Neither characterization is correct. > > (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of = the > FreeBSD project) > > DES The last time I did any Linux sys admin stuff was back before yum and=20 apt-get, so it looks like things have improved. I didnt mean to sound=20 geographically prejudicial, just my impression since the 90s and early=20 2000s. Heck I'd love to go see the northern extremes of Europe=20 someday. Honestly every year I do an upgrade where I get invovled in=20 all of it for a few weeks, then go quiet while the box silently and=20 flawlessly runs next to me. We are on the same team, and I cant thank the whole team enough for=20 making and continuing to maintain the extraordinary software I myself=20 and tons of people have come to rely on daily. Politics really isnt my=20 thing, I write code for a living. Maybe I should just stay there. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:58:15 +0100 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav writes: > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. >=20 > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as > the ports tree (~24k ports). Thanks, this is something which helps. Bye, Alexander. --=20 http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D = 72077137 ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:29 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger < Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav writes: > > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark = as > > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > Thanks, this is something which helps. > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > > Some package lists : ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/distrib/2/x86_64/media/core/release/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/core/os/x86_64/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/extra/os/x86_64/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/centos/6.4/os/x86_64/Packages/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/suse/x86_64/= http://packages.debian.org/stable/ https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/stats/?_csrf_token=3D4dbd43afddf475= f0efe aee2e2223fa77b781c0bb ftp://ftp.scientificlinux.org/linux/scientific/6.3/x86_64/os/Packages/ It seems that Debian-based distributions do not have an "All" list , but only categorized lists . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger < Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav writes: > > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark = as > > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > Thanks, this is something which helps. > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > > Some Linux Distribution DVD ( x86_64 ) Package counts : Fedora 18 : 4165 OpenSuse 12.3 : 4206 Mageia 2 : 4386 CentOS 6.4 DVD1 : 3956 Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Greetings Mehmet Erol Sanliturk If you want a FreeBSD PC then go for the PCBSD install of FreeBSD is = primary made of the GUI you seems to want to see when installing a system. FreeBSD is the true sence of a server does not really need to waste resources and load kde anyway! It is hard of the hard core FreeBSD (Server) users to have a gui as a standard option, maybe we should be more GUI sysadmins I for a fact never use a GUI interface for my Server I install, in the = pasti f I wanted a system with the power of FreeBSD and a GUI I install PCBSD. I hope that you find FreeBSD as a good companion as I have over the = years. =20 (I just hate it when my clients ask me to migrate to Windows and shut = down a server with mega uptime without problems But I am able to bill lots more = on a server that always need to be rebooted and petting it for hours and = hours to make it work, But I just love vacations and free time more, that = FreeBSD allows me) Salvatore Albanese _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2 ************************************************