From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 12:10:51 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D8FA18178 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:10:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from agsilveira.7@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 644071918 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:10:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from agsilveira.7@gmail.com) Received: by igbkq10 with SMTP id kq10so52983932igb.0 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=8EM+A00zrdp86OQ83iiWZt/RzEeXfKcFM0DDa7ddpuk=; b=H4csmArCJ5mFIJ8uxmXIdrFA3cTYsJph3sOn3FF2dmj67iCcZ9VkTugXhh3PXr47+m lt015oH41InLqClR2uwGZaamI+aC6XfbTv0Lu458Rm8aODJG3WxVtKoyqhlGRob0lo16 vqrgdBnL60kb5bZSBpT/7q7vSLiE7eAWl3PevSNADXDqFtFIMIaC3Op6rflNoaoX/mKi SWLP1XbQPAD0xhkS0M3ad5FsyY5IeUAC9+fm0Ju0M3oPFTzjjOlu7l/rk2cnzJTwr71b TfuPnHhnV3pYX/Q8gucn3JUfUK7/E/0WPAWqQ/j+LQEzAajR0xAvD6qmSd/JsC+ThNUQ xv0g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.73.8 with SMTP id h8mr19779554igv.94.1445256650653; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.43.147 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:10:50 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: From: Alessandro Silveira To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:10:51 -0000 Hello @ll, I visited the FreeBSD Id=C3=A9ias and saw that are Sporting it to System Z.= I hav=C3=AA knowledge in C and Cross Compiler necessary to do this. It falso= Has much interest in contributing. How do I join. Regards Alessandro From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 17:12:17 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE792A18685 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF427197D; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9FF165E; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:12:15 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Enabling all available ttys if available console Message-ID: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rYRijwbmzeJBcrGE" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event X-PEKBAC-Definition: Problem Exists, Keyboard Between Admin/Computer User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:12:18 -0000 --rYRijwbmzeJBcrGE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to the system. The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console access remotely by default. Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something larger in this proposed change? Thanks in advance. Glen --rYRijwbmzeJBcrGE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWJSRvAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KT3n0P/2137Diw4bKNfH2QWj2igAHP b+EX4obujvoCIJJ06SoOaJLj4mKKarxng4WqGl8rJ1tUiti4/RvkBb51hyawC9Al 3L27V1MrnGOjPGjRvVJk3uwphqabVOvXnfqrJtsrTiIYEpvc+m7nqeXJY2+ucAi2 ifZShR2fluJGrsaeJGVmXcC22XY6KZwp2sjtq9XAkewNewkfZpx7/ULBjyFuxG8/ GOoruZwbNTOlcG80gb3IyQEeM8+47kVEFch90h59EXn8+DDvMx+8/K/XCTspLgdS THCJiYmPAG5XW21VRqjwh3o7zEjvfQ+Thg3DDfY0dM0oylz0C/6zgUiu3I0WhhLS rZmxrL3UFoxhcekyOeMOpPrM/Yb/ftWLHgLT95TceW4/iLvW30XjuyEhHHcsmZBq TgMHx0vMGbTRJoG1MuM8vcHCB7AcuJEIGhv1B1HSIwk+0BU11u23OiHlQpXpsWim QC0wvf5mPHLBezm0rMB17SttQqzODkTDchwnKlEC1Aq1YE1bh4JmOevR5lALdjm4 LOXq9ZV9D1IwOiFobDgn8vRd39AIk+M41VJnOM6v57JJsrMn5CNFxxsbTiUikbrJ REwrLUqNZrpYUyTxRoUS7j39BsPV4VKre2u6hzSWnou4Rw5Wp5xQB20FTT+Ucipx gSl9ok8Hp7OqwaszC4+b =wOqR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rYRijwbmzeJBcrGE-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 17:16:43 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1BCA187C4 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC091BD7; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67A61838; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:41 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console Message-ID: <20151019171641.GZ15305@FreeBSD.org> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wDIVdgWPGyZzZswh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event X-PEKBAC-Definition: Problem Exists, Keyboard Between Admin/Computer User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:16:43 -0000 --wDIVdgWPGyZzZswh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 05:12:15PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > Hi, >=20 > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. >=20 > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to > the system. >=20 > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > access remotely by default. >=20 > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something > larger in this proposed change? >=20 I should have also added that the change I propose is the default for all architectures except amd64, i386, pc98, and mips. This would effectively enable the same behavior across all architectures. Glen --wDIVdgWPGyZzZswh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWJSV5AAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTlAgP/0YJeoP2Ly3ebA9kBUPxiUpU wJuF17F+pTjZg7qzRPT5iM/qumxLItKoUlW+lYJdpb6ny9e6CMGx8vOTBiOl1anC SLmyZR5Py3/uFx5JdJDzKPOv6hMCwCJJoQZcy/i7worsYFpsyKynyBWTW3WoJzep rxz8rOc+aGxSwgNza/5gPVuvEXq5vv+HGBR/dSNckZw/AELOwhSRd2p4CvwQRGrZ 4LFdrkIOfzZtnT0brlIOUs45NtRzT1Z7Qx6VkQp2AdP8OtAxgOiGBocyj6hgyCwS LOXLqrtFLtmWKsipM0pgyimaUSc+fyBK4xETuAIFyZ4H+nSzSpElYtYezAFA439u e7/82hBH4zPnNwT4bViMC4YBK0M5aHMx/d/yUnxdbj4lkB4MNDeEApDgOIfzdupn HLFH2F/gA+mYNbrMJGyfnnDZMqCe08uMsWi7AWMuNxGRRCsw6N0iCVKW3+GOYIk+ xzBBXxI2dFoHTiT9KJQzEgFQQCLVAv4qJfCw2akK1hoarNxIq8jWUmK7TIxiYEux yQSKXyQ4fsWEZNWAtQVOnNkIPq4vqAhl3E6GrgLSLHCc1mhzDHe7wd8Mj2nwWI6O oaIgvnNxd3sXV+aZyrsngtcqJ+pYRH9YKA3rHpkkIavxA93v+/8O5QXGLxLxS5k0 9vH/mDGqrnDPYwpxP/Xy =GAar -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wDIVdgWPGyZzZswh-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 17:43:20 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B22A18EB4 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:43:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE388B4F; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:43:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baptiste.daroussin@gmail.com) Received: by wicfv8 with SMTP id fv8so17052991wic.0; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=c0LuYUO5tLPcaClKFrmoEhGrIhcJKSpd6QInYbNv9YI=; b=QRwnOx/d47yrLJ/6fiJX1VoAULwYC3Js+mNhc7QOy3d+Y0xIYouzpXE4eD4BUzEuJy iLaWgP0g6CvvjtNYynF8yhFeLQH7PUnX5XCrnhYEkMbtU8v7GEiYDkWUV8KrzmV2VcGc WQzjK54WwpbUjUnYpMyaPprca1vEOnwxrOwViH7He/lINCtjpMFtuZ4JUb/5JI5eyu3b E8/EBfD/pMOgUyN2zJe/Dm2JfSb+tHjGShbOAfCPNYSknNJQawX7jhrJVwDc9PVbu2i+ 6+7mx1hRxvUFL36cLlR6H4PF1ezkx8taOhJEa23whonDJ/XWKoI18uXFnWFfipI9zXH0 SHww== X-Received: by 10.195.13.164 with SMTP id ez4mr33861091wjd.112.1445276597315; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net ([2001:41d0:8:db4c::1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lg1sm15903410wic.17.2015.10.19.10.43.16 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Baptiste Daroussin Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:43:14 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Glen Barber Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console Message-ID: <20151019174314.GA86565@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:43:20 -0000 --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 05:12:15PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > Hi, >=20 > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. >=20 > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to > the system. >=20 > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > access remotely by default. >=20 > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something > larger in this proposed change? >=20 > Thanks in advance. >=20 > Glen >=20 That would save a lot of pain in production servers, where different manufacturers means differents ports available etc. Big +1 for me. best regards, Bapt --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlYlK7IACgkQ8kTtMUmk6Ew3jgCfV8dptmUKAlo5FyvOFM+eJdJ8 zBwAn3xPnufg0Iikfg77S/ystO6SYTUB =JLKb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 18:51:13 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB60A190A3 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:51:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gold.funkthat.com", Issuer "gold.funkthat.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC9B01958; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:51:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9JIpB2p008089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id t9JIpBAm008088; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:51:11 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Glen Barber Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console Message-ID: <20151019185111.GF65715@funkthat.com> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.1-PRERELEASE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 54BA 873B 6515 3F10 9E88 9322 9CB1 8F74 6D3F A396 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:51:13 -0000 Glen Barber wrote this message on Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 17:12 +0000: > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. > > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to > the system. > > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > access remotely by default. > > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something > larger in this proposed change? > > Thanks in advance. Please do this. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 19:14:36 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1FEFA195B5 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:14:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B63B232B for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:14:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: by padhk11 with SMTP id hk11so37766796pad.1 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:14:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date :to:mime-version; bh=G5+e5GyiZjRlRMQYU+9FEA/mDGBXrHN91Es7RC4pqbs=; b=U6+0I9cx17at+o8c+ErUayG7PMGo5VJps1ZHrEkLv8Sr9oZxhqCuDVgg2ire9Ju/g8 gDM81ma/nZ9XoUHbN17QBrQw2MrCI06K8hyyx3RBRLhnRpSAlZqMhZ0RfbvKGtbN9QRM 89Z/gvlOLJQcADgoa0PZZ6ioQIM5aCHJN8V8Su29fkgZHCJ6OoalO/NTwX//GCmmH7e5 9gTvVVQ+ELwjXcD4ql3RoZQn5MBSzZ2t4PZojT+4MBGPSP15nuFvrFttAgUzfC0T6Q2C kPD/aFs3aDNmvJ9c4PJehXh/TM9VDvcPQOCJFX4LNfurgrY1E2Gn1qlh/unvOK8hil8q sYlA== X-Received: by 10.66.147.74 with SMTP id ti10mr36620353pab.88.1445282076314; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:601:800:126d:957b:6ba6:5bab:7c49? ([2601:601:800:126d:957b:6ba6:5bab:7c49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id rc5sm37637266pbc.95.2015.10.19.12.14.35 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:14:35 -0700 (PDT) From: NGie Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [RFC] importing e* (embolic, estrdup, etc) functions from NetBSD (libc/libutil or libnetbsd)? Message-Id: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:14:34 -0700 To: freebsd-arch Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:14:37 -0000 Hi all, While looking quickly through makefs upstream for fixing a PR, I = realized that some years ago NetBSD has refactored a number of userland = utilities (including makefs) to use their new e* function = implementations of malloc, strndup, etc: = http://man.netbsd.org/HEAD/usr/share/man/html3/efun.html (they have some = other functions that we don=E2=80=99t have in libc/libutil in their = libutil that might need to be ported as well). The basic overall difference is that when the failing case = occurs, a function defined by esetfunc is called, it dumps out a = diagnostic error message via esetfunc, then returns the original value = [*]. I was wondering if anyone had objections to adding this to = libutil (I think it=E2=80=99d be handy because it would eliminate a lot = of repetitive error handling in our user land code)? If there are major = objections, I=E2=80=99ll take it and stuff it into libnetbsd. Thanks! -NGie [*] Based on a quick glance over the code, = estrlcpy/estrlcat/estrtoi/estrtou are exceptions to the rule. It = modifies/saves errno before calling the error function: = http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/lib/libutil/efun.c?rev=3D1.10&cont= ent-type=3Dtext/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=3DMAIN= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 19:31:17 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C717BA19C60 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:31:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oliver.pinter@hardenedbsd.org) Received: from mail-lf0-f50.google.com (mail-lf0-f50.google.com [209.85.215.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5934212DB for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:31:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oliver.pinter@hardenedbsd.org) Received: by lffy185 with SMTP id y185so120713962lff.2 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0pYhkgD8IcwNkdYjNA/p4SIB+2p5o2SHUhm7h5Oaaq4=; b=c/gxhyl0Y8Vwz2S6w1GgBG2wGj6eby6ilkfWcvKCGV6+qpZLU7aXGBcJ7pExgz9tVX vJcpNBdcasGIEcbI8E/nk6qMm2atQ+tjqfQoP4GRSi4//HnPYXiEqbENXaWxPU82cVxT 51+Vz35qR0zRL8dFLVjsDWGiDotigObo48Mfwe7Ha1VjcugcEEas6gB/taazx6nUig/E jmc6eQwHWKQobME/aTOYTGr8YH2ebg2gQ3TuWgF78MKRrnIqma0Be3yUW4XEBjRK7bij Ly0r37TZmgWr+L1pxhAMZMLwYXyuXBY7266t5x8ghnBz+s45PIN2Z1ZCa+NPGwYHKAXW 2Kcg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmQH2t9II/CNs12Un0N/NTzWncA4mQH0KUVrnsiAj+fzQAHa2dXW4j5rTYHad8XbSJfeKt3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.80.197 with SMTP id t5mr34073523wjx.143.1445283068621; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.240.226 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> References: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:31:08 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [RFC] importing e* (embolic, estrdup, etc) functions from NetBSD (libc/libutil or libnetbsd)? From: Oliver Pinter To: NGie Cooper Cc: freebsd-arch , Pedro Giffuni Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:31:17 -0000 added pfg@ to CC On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 9:14 PM, NGie Cooper wrote: > Hi all, > While looking quickly through makefs upstream for fixing a PR, I = realized that some years ago NetBSD has refactored a number of userland uti= lities (including makefs) to use their new e* function implementations of m= alloc, strndup, etc: http://man.netbsd.org/HEAD/usr/share/man/html3/efun.ht= ml (they have some other functions that we don=E2=80=99t have in libc/libut= il in their libutil that might need to be ported as well). > The basic overall difference is that when the failing case occurs= , a function defined by esetfunc is called, it dumps out a diagnostic error= message via esetfunc, then returns the original value [*]. > I was wondering if anyone had objections to adding this to libuti= l (I think it=E2=80=99d be handy because it would eliminate a lot of repeti= tive error handling in our user land code)? If there are major objections, = I=E2=80=99ll take it and stuff it into libnetbsd. > Thanks! > -NGie > > [*] Based on a quick glance over the code, estrlcpy/estrlcat/estrtoi/estr= tou are exceptions to the rule. It modifies/saves errno before calling the = error function: http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/lib/libutil/efun.c?= rev=3D1.10&content-type=3Dtext/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=3DMAIN > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 20:04:19 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61608A1954D for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yk0-x235.google.com (mail-yk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21AAEDE4; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by ykfy204 with SMTP id y204so154134498ykf.1; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZAhLOJv46f+gJTgZKC2jIEXqW82jNJfFyO5dr+SilIg=; b=VOXLqLZ7MJA6QwSRXHyfpkykGhOecmsYFcZSIDmiU7Bo0nczAemuxYq5uB5xNgRXaI CBE+OsVfdQZoWzTBKyLCuiuDU5E3P/bFnlQ25OMcVCoJQcmoAPxJg79Zs0BJyZiaaknS 6VdUlS8oDUl50fyWBQogkxyw36+YDTSeodb+8XMf3vFYh9/VP9OitmeoHO7C6QE3WIWs 3RgQdLYbThsKa8IIIfYkShaevw+7jgZuRK/K8M19Gp8jfliMpWdlvQMkq/MA3tjBUVR/ EFqgrQxzqgMmfz2zX1ocikv4ERF3dUmKu/+msNNTWZlscpfmaCF3U97upKKcikLe8VNn t9xQ== X-Received: by 10.13.214.75 with SMTP id y72mr3596649ywd.108.1445285058224; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by 10.37.84.134 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> References: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> From: Ed Maste Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:03:58 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WwpECCJPskU_yqhGc818_PBM9pw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [RFC] importing e* (embolic, estrdup, etc) functions from NetBSD (libc/libutil or libnetbsd)? To: NGie Cooper Cc: freebsd-arch , Brooks Davis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:04:19 -0000 On 19 October 2015 at 15:14, NGie Cooper wrote: > Hi all, > While looking quickly through makefs upstream for fixing a PR, I = realized that some years ago NetBSD has refactored a number of userland uti= lities (including makefs) to use their new e* function implementations of m= alloc, strndup, etc: http://man.netbsd.org/HEAD/usr/share/man/html3/efun.ht= ml (they have some other functions that we don=E2=80=99t have in libc/libut= il in their libutil that might need to be ported as well). Yes, I spotted this while looking at makefs as well and I think it's reasonable to bring them over. I would put them in libnetbsd though until there's an actual plan to start migrating our own tools to use them. Moving them from libnetbsd to libutil is easy to do later on. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 20:10:00 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D721A196A2 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@FreeBSD.org) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 252F4FB9 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:09:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feld@FreeBSD.org) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAEBE20612 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:09:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:09:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=1FQ6gTQA/HH+GiI St6uz8HSkMl4=; b=UwzEqh2DjtF9CdMEDx5CYRKEBrZHgwFpN0nZ+fMjX6fwaw4 rCodbCErROTnOBOGFDRT2cM1DE+i1RE9QuVN8JuxzN251wiTNq+Y9X+7l9RhyhCH iatkRC6PFfsOqa7Z4JI3TIWxHSTuAt+za6voikt34J5Chsps61YEAe57mKOA= Received: by web3.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 9869410CF27; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:09:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1445285398.1810452.414565353.4CFD9C24@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: FKEHu5fww/Un5kVmyu7xdyHqlZJ3CTFfQc20gR1d/4tY 1445285398 From: Mark Felder To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-25d3ec43 Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:09:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:10:00 -0000 On Mon, Oct 19, 2015, at 12:12, Glen Barber wrote: > Hi, > > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. > > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to > the system. > > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > access remotely by default. > > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something > larger in this proposed change? > > Thanks in advance. > > Glen > I hate later finding that serial console isn't working... I also would appreciate it. -- Mark Felder ports-secteam member feld@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 20:51:18 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F164A19E28 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:51:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from shxd.cx (mail.shxd.cx [64.201.244.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E57F1FAB; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:51:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from 50-196-156-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net ([50.196.156.133]:57810 helo=tinkerbell.pixel8networks.com) by shxd.cx with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoEyT-000Erp-LA; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:15:57 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console From: Devin In-Reply-To: <20151019185111.GF65715@funkthat.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:51:11 -0700 Cc: Glen Barber , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Devin Teske Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <89F9F707-57DD-48E8-A17C-75970F572684@fraubsd.org> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> <20151019185111.GF65715@funkthat.com> To: John-Mark Gurney X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Sender: devin@shxd.cx X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:51:18 -0000 > On Oct 19, 2015, at 11:51 AM, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > Glen Barber wrote this message on Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 17:12 +0000: >> For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active >> ttys on the system > > Please do this. > +1 From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 21:00:37 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB73A19068 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:00:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0B26E4; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:00:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9AB01A71; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:00:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:00:35 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console Message-ID: <20151019210035.GB15569@FreeBSD.org> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="s2ZSL+KKDSLx8OML" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event X-PEKBAC-Definition: Problem Exists, Keyboard Between Admin/Computer User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:00:37 -0000 --s2ZSL+KKDSLx8OML Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 05:12:15PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. >=20 > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to > the system. >=20 > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > access remotely by default. >=20 > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something > larger in this proposed change? >=20 Based on the replies so far, unless there are no objections by tomorrow, I'll commit the change. Thanks to everyone who replied. Glen --s2ZSL+KKDSLx8OML Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWJVnyAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTM6EP/i2laUNf1kzjCueIpZHCiSq5 hOqbr2JoITVOV4exXSiUZ0SkIqRa0PDiP/yj8f2eWi0cs2h8VTpTNT+XefD+g1NL MIvBCJ7n4zoj397FM5LXGtnTVHoUN+k/x8meBZJ1VnkY3ECWE2kiXX4vjQu+b7bk 4aA3I0vUxrXT/2iF8PNXnwwnaeIhwOmUHyKiBRuwU0868hZCfSQimUIWpsnVgaTh CojBf8X2r/1+wZwPMLSlWBdWRapz7+rCtLbpJIsM/9/KheTl87p/ip3KzhlJlTRi 1ely0zHdJ23j2vXx8y56qlPI3jXpQ/vil/hyIRm/KDJD+5vFaxOpoXEZ5G0VUmDY Qwjq+MRzpOjXcpO6/RumhhomWS2fmeaJb9ri4pk0OiEEGUGcR70/apX8YdWI24t7 E2opm5JN59BklhWVreHLeWbQOOwi0QI+hc9qUr3QrxSqJk3T1S+NXwU+kBZnR5dD OlUTxhmivjhF7/TkME6VM4JV0wcp4TJK1EeSopMKMlmAs8c/6mWthCplM/X+1dEC KLG2g+YZ2xv6WFYuGIb4/RKkke35sowltuXQBkimgy0VwtQgmjulfr1eNYVvykr9 iiDs9L8vH28IE0/1JpX1sWSdbQ3hlxEdEMtX0X2YxEdwvqWqR3wi25RwsV5Lz+au utPZA/NRsOBTaTAcJghT =bJeY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --s2ZSL+KKDSLx8OML-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 21:27:57 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98DEA19A36 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:27:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A431E1835; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:27:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 617E65A9F13; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:27:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:27:50 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: Ed Maste Cc: NGie Cooper , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: [RFC] importing e* (embolic, estrdup, etc) functions from NetBSD (libc/libutil or libnetbsd)? Message-ID: <20151019212750.GB64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:27:57 -0000 --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 04:03:58PM -0400, Ed Maste wrote: > On 19 October 2015 at 15:14, NGie Cooper wrote: > > Hi all, > > While looking quickly through makefs upstream for fixing a PR, = I realized that some years ago NetBSD has refactored a number of userland u= tilities (including makefs) to use their new e* function implementations of= malloc, strndup, etc: http://man.netbsd.org/HEAD/usr/share/man/html3/efun.= html (they have some other functions that we don???t have in libc/libutil i= n their libutil that might need to be ported as well). >=20 > Yes, I spotted this while looking at makefs as well and I think it's > reasonable to bring them over. I would put them in libnetbsd though > until there's an actual plan to start migrating our own tools to use > them. Moving them from libnetbsd to libutil is easy to do later on. This feels like the right approach to me as well. Let's get them in and get some them some more exposure and then, if people like them, we can put a copy in libutil. -- Brooks --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJWBVAAoJEKzQXbSebgfArI4H/AsLm6RQQWbYTTx/fcg8/4p6 +kO0q1kX48mcy8F3IoGQ9MxuDOQDXzpyu0PHidYzOAHwPmBYjlGV7zjjjqV2Ubpr iO3722HQXUmLpS+QARW29/zReNhQLumFXSoxlZdAZ0OPLp5BSLcJf51K3ckYh+nB L7kFttRHRH04GfshByptWMfp8taQFy7cmEhhr5hY+bk8FWYZDtjs5bSGLPM83qoT Fxergn6EpLt03mXFWw3ArBfqvhv1K1m9p+M/J9HkER2WTTmLod4aXmzEJMhF1txT HZo2mrTCEljccP1fRP532VzEx676SyPCTPs19w9ljElmcUU3jy4qlpExhNIJqjc= =ET2K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 21:50:21 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27515A19122 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:50:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2488A53; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:50:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88E54F860; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:50:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id t9JLoCl9094057; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:50:12 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Brooks Davis cc: Ed Maste , NGie Cooper , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: [RFC] importing e* (embolic, estrdup, etc) functions from NetBSD (libc/libutil or libnetbsd)? In-reply-to: <20151019212750.GB64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> <20151019212750.GB64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <94055.1445291412.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: <94056.1445291412@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:50:21 -0000 -------- In message <20151019212750.GB64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net>, Brooks Dav= is writes: >This feels like the right approach to me as well. I looked at it at one point and I found it seriously lacking. The philosophy seems to be "just stick 'e' in front and you're done" but in practice that is not even close. The *real* problem they're trying to solve is safe string handling, and the e* functions only cover a small corner area of that space. Their implemenation also seems half-hearted in many ways. For instance they have not specified what happens if the error handler returns to the e* function. And finally, C-with-exceptions ? Really ? I far prefer sbuf(3) to e*(3) -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 22:09:55 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D649A19537 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A71D1108; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id C63E35A9F13; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:09:53 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:09:53 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Ed Maste , NGie Cooper , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: [RFC] importing e* (embolic, estrdup, etc) functions from NetBSD (libc/libutil or libnetbsd)? Message-ID: <20151019220953.GC64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <74F6DD3C-42F6-490B-A08E-245A1338A3E7@gmail.com> <20151019212750.GB64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <94056.1445291412@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LpQ9ahxlCli8rRTG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <94056.1445291412@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:09:55 -0000 --LpQ9ahxlCli8rRTG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 09:50:12PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > In message <20151019212750.GB64504@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net>, Brooks Da= vis writes: >=20 > >This feels like the right approach to me as well. >=20 > I looked at it at one point and I found it seriously lacking. By "This" I ment, sticking them in libnetbsd. For code we don't actively maintain, I'd rather pick up some extra funcitions in libnetbsd than convert the code to match our prefered mechanism unless there's a good reason to. > The philosophy seems to be "just stick 'e' in front and you're done" > but in practice that is not even close. If one wanted this approach, a libc replacment that fails stop on unrecoverable errors might be more interesting approach (somwhat with different, but still signficant limitations). > The *real* problem they're trying to solve is safe string handling, > and the e* functions only cover a small corner area of that space. >=20 > Their implemenation also seems half-hearted in many ways. For > instance they have not specified what happens if the error handler > returns to the e* function. > > And finally, C-with-exceptions ? Really ? >=20 > I far prefer sbuf(3) to e*(3) For our code, I think I agree. -- Brooks --LpQ9ahxlCli8rRTG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJWoxAAoJEKzQXbSebgfACL8IAI0COG1Myk/g9g3DoQ1ZESAk 0gsLseQvEatDNcGgFpDSF24+awe8Vm2H8QnZHlHS1YUxeIsWvaLfEjKHKRaRLVyE 9yLw8zWRmaqR4RrDxCbS5COFTK3m043TfW6ugVRNTGgFkHXVYHlBvjsFwz9RGYRb MhOKJqvtQOSEq3ZINwVNQj0WnBlse5JipUg8r0cDBMfmE3kSzEvWtIkhnie78iKL f+dkw8k/QCQb1zA+xDrAwqLenW6+TSfThUkU+ACamleFI0d+rcg7S+yfezZKpm3z TtHPO4WYaZSD28PxrZ7e4c2mSYkYSFd8PIBVbPliwZ9S66vrDDUr+1K+tYOJgW0= =SOhk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LpQ9ahxlCli8rRTG-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 19 23:09:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253B0A18A90 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qg0-f52.google.com (mail-qg0-f52.google.com [209.85.192.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDEFC14CC for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:09:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by qgeo38 with SMTP id o38so356395qge.0 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:09:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=tTX/0bU/p6kcfF4GR2pW5VS0TX7fSQAdsVRrFyVJtFU=; b=bDnwi9jFxqCGSI4PmfM1XfN8iGwqYHyrENccSGJozuyIEtb59MGDRb6rO1LkFtOrre tkYSgeL6c8+KK3i1GfNA6S5v5eSNBELdAV1HVuypTpjxfhl5Y/1PknqjvKATc9sIjABg JwtiIStCJDQU2AHQVG4L/GwyOSCxHo/iEZp9tOCIl7O5MfE2619vw9U4vdvBgPNyk4VV Mius78XDGeqQiwKCEelYxzrdYVCz4Ds8BoYWUDsuY8MNXuzjMckpMRL28P/R4l4VNl9k 3+NOyUV/xdpHyPcvVoB+gZGxHp1Hfxw74ARsGVvYXgDmH3Mgdzrd9ZL7yxQYkHXq5jYh Z0qg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnws8zp5NWcQYDr72ohMF5Z33X+z1w7XNZgWMnj8e2B3z34tkU4ZiG3ildHTNjeIt7qK+nJ MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.19.13 with SMTP id 13mr8018227qgg.97.1445296185522; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.140.80.167 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:09:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [69.53.245.5] In-Reply-To: <20151019210035.GB15569@FreeBSD.org> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> <20151019210035.GB15569@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:09:45 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: sJr8GFxTuD1_6kXx0SezhoagTak Message-ID: Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console From: Warner Losh To: Glen Barber Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:09:47 -0000 On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Glen Barber wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 05:12:15PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. > > > > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access to > > the system. > > > > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > > access remotely by default. > > > > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed something > > larger in this proposed change? > > > > Based on the replies so far, unless there are no objections by tomorrow, > I'll commit the change. > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Any chance we can move the tip entries from 9600 to 115200 too for the other direction? Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 00:06:44 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9F3A19DF0 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:06:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC38A14C6; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:06:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6720B1887; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:06:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:06:42 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Enabling all available ttys if available console Message-ID: <20151020000642.GB20559@FreeBSD.org> References: <20151019171215.GX15305@FreeBSD.org> <20151019210035.GB15569@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event X-PEKBAC-Definition: Problem Exists, Keyboard Between Admin/Computer User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:06:45 -0000 --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 05:09:45PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Glen Barber wrote: >=20 > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 05:12:15PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > > > For several months now, I have been contemplating enabling all active > > > ttys on the system by 1) changing the defaults from std.9600 to 3wire, > > > and 2) setting ttyu{0,1,2,3} from 'off' to 'onifconsole'. > > > > > > The only drawback to doing this that I can think of is it could open > > > a potential attack vector, however this would require physical access= to > > > the system. > > > > > > The benefit to doing this is the system would be accessible via ttys > > > other than ttyu0 by default, which unless there is someone with local > > > access to the system, is painful for administrators to gain console > > > access remotely by default. > > > > > > Are there objections to changing the default, or have I missed someth= ing > > > larger in this proposed change? > > > > > > > Based on the replies so far, unless there are no objections by tomorrow, > > I'll commit the change. > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. >=20 >=20 > Any chance we can move the tip entries from 9600 to 115200 too for the > other direction? >=20 I don't see why not. Glen --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWJYWSAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KThyEP/23ChFl5b4qWttY+vluCRQks qHBBMgL9hD59/C0pTRvfVEDhsrghmHy8Ng7lDSWVyfcQN24zgvmMk1rTvuV+KZd0 wMhw9kuTdzM0vnYZyn6ScFXERKc9Dv2d2hw9wLLkrvBbBSAhIdStHPcGzaKqI7m5 Nx2xeiWuB26Xfu5UYa7yY7PWSKh1nNo6tz2CcjWb+w0mEG7kTua32afQak0g0Nz9 eOCzHSEHGYtWU6y84t0vbqXDtnRItzJOkHASRGMr7eCCuTmqnvz61eRVkpfIQWy3 NB0MXXV3eGbCSKi2/cRgnE0q8Ry2NtSEz/BzFv5d4xXcei/J98zDtXEn/tfhorHE WejCzzBQvQTtdwdaLB4ZRHA4Ra5s1NFYX/E4P0KssoSrDNR+aOLFQR4YV+NMbCN7 Fiw1+QxnYZj/uLqOtq2pkSnEhMcUAYYeGEZyU80PZJJDhThQs42PVxOb8v1U2fKb 3uyHNsKGsfLLq1ud76YggKsHd/0LRPukMnq8RCUi/5sE9CBOWvKt4wBbkVE/xbT7 EWjndeAd4933xJS20RCEAnNyxsvOnBZ+WjZjH2ufLB+jT2KIVfjbBpgoYEGN6e7j PCD5ePSzrkdaKNqIOQb7l6GjEDfblcFplsnKc3j8TTlAqJk3Ve4BtwEoPXoys0HE QDeL0bYWZbE4GS8cn+UE =wVaI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 18:56:02 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60520A1AC1A for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:56:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F718109B for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:56:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by igbkq10 with SMTP id kq10so82050379igb.0 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=lsOG35+d1Xl+nmn6vCKkMBK5HyhIyBmRgGeX6GdMGWQ=; b=tZ1M41HksUVp5p9iOdyADmWDsnwa9Jy3mODvdHrkLIlRVi64kexsWmFB5pt6O/v3V9 vDr6kQ/K5ePosw9B28MXllqAqwTe48xv6+R+sFgT3iFClU9WsBc00v+tt4cfaTfQxLS/ LYH/OSyqezzI0R/Mh5MkU67sHzMSMiuW6UhPUdCgGD+4uBSWy3xfdjBq9BzXsQEbnjF/ IurYuOMJyQLDhWmZ7hgwKMqHGlI3rIvKYVMws0BO35BORPuIy3NW4K266WXXbdPZLejB 0+L2nCRGVBOqs4qd+fjMI2RMWlI9ggRRz0jyMGm1zPkowb7JZqfvxEVlVyN03b/voKmb MBSA== X-Received: by 10.50.6.100 with SMTP id z4mr5510871igz.97.1445367361480; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.158.75 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:55:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Maste Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:55:42 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PIUzSzuxyD5o_R-T58CB_mYFLHw Message-ID: Subject: Updating makefs(8) with updates from NetBSD To: NGie Cooper , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:56:02 -0000 On 19 October 2015 at 15:14, NGie Cooper wrote: > Hi all, > While looking quickly through makefs upstream for fixing a PR... This comment prompted a brief discussion off the mailing list, but I feel I should bring it back here as I've heard from a few others with an interest in updating makefs. Makefs originated in NetBSD, but we haven't treated it as contrib code - the initial import was done directly in usr.sbin/makefs in r186335. Since that time we've had a comprehensive sync w/ NetBSD (r214921), a sync of cd9660 support only (r224762), and a number of individual fixes either taken from NetBSD or committed to FreeBSD first and submitted to NetBSD. We also have changes that I don't believe made it to NetBSD. I'd like to see another makefs sync with NetBSD, specifically to pick up support for FAT filesystems -- -t msdos. Since a few of us have been looking at makefs updates and/or bug fixes I'd like to figure out what the best path forward is, so that we don't duplicate or waste effort. It seems the options are: (a) update makefs in usr.sbin/makefs directly, either by iterating on NetBSD changes and importing one by one, in small groups, or as one massive update (b) bring the latest NetBSD makefs into contrib, retrofit mergeinfo as best we can, and replay all of our local changes, submitting to NetBSD as we go (c) push all of our changes and in-progress bug/coverity fixes to NetBSD, then replace makefs with NetBSD's, and import the dependencies from NetBSD Option (b) or (c) seem to be cleaner and is probably less work overall -- there are more than 100 commits in NetBSD after our last sync. It has the downside of limiting work that can be done by multiple people concurrently though, and includes file system support that's not of interest to us (e.g. v7fs). Note that NetBSD's makefs is set up to build on many different host operating systems already (FreeBSD, Linux, OS X etc.) because they build it as part of their build.sh build environment. This relies on the NetBSD versions of various headers (e.g. ffs*.h) and other tools (e.g. newfs_msdos). I don't think we want to pull in another copy of those headers and tools for the sake of makefs though and prefer (b) to (c). Although I suspect it's more work overall I think we're most likely to make progress with option (a), merging over individual changes or groups of changes. I'd like to know what those who've worked on makefs updates in the past and others with an interest in makefs prefer to do here. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 19:58:43 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD13FA19BED for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:58:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gold.funkthat.com", Issuer "gold.funkthat.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A2B6132B; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:58:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9KJwgOd026060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id t9KJwgdb026059; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:58:42 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Ed Maste Cc: NGie Cooper , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Updating makefs(8) with updates from NetBSD Message-ID: <20151020195842.GL65715@funkthat.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.1-PRERELEASE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 54BA 873B 6515 3F10 9E88 9322 9CB1 8F74 6D3F A396 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:58:43 -0000 Ed Maste wrote this message on Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 14:55 -0400: > Option (b) or (c) seem to be cleaner and is probably less work overall > -- there are more than 100 commits in NetBSD after our last sync. It > has the downside of limiting work that can be done by multiple people > concurrently though, and includes file system support that's not of > interest to us (e.g. v7fs). If we changed to linker sets instead of a hard coded table in makefs.c, then we just don't compile in the v7fs files, and no other changes are needed... I'd be willing to make the changes to support linker sets for this.. This would also allow dynamic loading of fs modules w/o much trouble through LD_PRELOAD iirc... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 20:36:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05D4A0A7DF for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:36:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:75::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A08CFF47 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:36:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from ralph.baldwin.cx (c-73-231-226-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.231.226.104]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6D8EB94F for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:36:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Retiring in-tree GDB Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:36:28 -0700 Message-ID: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> User-Agent: KMail/4.14.3 (FreeBSD/10.2-PRERELEASE; KDE/4.14.3; amd64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:36:31 -0400 (EDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:36:33 -0000 When this topic was last raised (by Warner I believe), the primary objection (certainly my main one) was that the in-tree kgdb was the only kernel debugger available. kgdb is now available via the devel/gdb port in ports (and as of last week was enabled by default, so 'pkg install gdb' will get you a kgdb binary). The kgdb in ports is in general superior to the one in the base system. It is a cross debugger by default (and with my pending patches to libkvm it even supports cross debugging of vmcores). There are some issues still with devel/gdb: namely it does not currently support some of the platforms supported by our in tree gdb such as arm and mips. For these platforms I think the in-tree gdb will need to remain until there is a suitable alternative. However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for some of our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should default to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the following criteria: 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support 2) lldb works We could perhaps be more aggressive and handle lldb and gdb toggles independently, but I think we want to ship some sort of userland debugger out of the box on all of our platforms. The question I think might be if we end up with platforms where 1) is true but 2) is not (such as powerpc). I believe that these conditions are only true for x86 currently. Comments? -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 21:04:17 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB452A1A0D7 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yk0-x22c.google.com (mail-yk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F464867; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by ykdr3 with SMTP id r3so29859596ykd.1; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:04:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=oNBw4xRDxQ5f1XQGd9FS3QDYYjRAnLbTA6rz7CcuJG0=; b=DFecacDx4ra1q44sE828TPPiuH5/i7Ehq6X6HkO4EQo1eBjW7Nb6mSUFnA4K91o5bh WP9jVote5cLAbp8ZfIJIzfjoKpgWAS0B92FZQr0XPVX1/AS35gK5S1nJQ+3tInN2Vq1/ 2gD1KcTJYIfZmnmh/ZGzqr959gMnaJaX8Xzs9fnXtcauW8aJ1EGtCAb/fvP8Dl3QDS5e lE0tahDgZAaG4m5F0QY7TUCh9vDJrLkgjA+lKRx8+cJgkjDEdTVC6gKdnnJlBK7NYLWV 1TzVi81SlGZx3fzaNctsEGVWlNSUSMx04xJLWAoNUUZc68qrA4s+Vx2iZXI40jgu/ij7 IKZQ== X-Received: by 10.129.102.135 with SMTP id a129mr4403533ywc.104.1445375056853; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:04:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by 10.37.84.134 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> From: Ed Maste Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:03:57 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: QKubs0fphwYtIQDctb6BgeNBRCM Message-ID: Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:04:18 -0000 On 20 October 2015 at 16:36, John Baldwin wrote: > > However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for some of > our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should default > to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the following > criteria: > > 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support > 2) lldb works > > We could perhaps be more aggressive and handle lldb and gdb toggles > independently, but I think we want to ship some sort of userland debugger > out of the box on all of our platforms. The question I think might be if > we end up with platforms where 1) is true but 2) is not (such as powerpc). > > I believe that these conditions are only true for x86 currently. For 11 I'd go further, and stop shipping the in-tree gdb if either 1 or 2 is true. Our in-tree gdb is over a decade old and has a number of issues. I'm not sure there's much value in keeping it if 'pkg install gdb' provides a gdb that's better in every way. I'd suggest we do it in several steps, perhaps: - Turn on lldb by default on amd64 (where it's at least as functional as in-tree gdb) and on arm64 (where it's the most functional debugger with FreeBSD support now). - Send an announcement with the current status, information on the gdb port, next steps, and to encourage testing of lldb on arm, powerpc, and mips. - Fix LLDB/i386 support - Turn on lldb by default on remaining platforms (excluding sparc64, which lacks support upstream) - Fix remaining devel/gdb issues - Turn off in-tree gdb on all platforms where either devel/gdb or lldb works There is a Phabricator review open for the first step at https://reviews.freebsd.org/D2 > When this topic was last raised (by Warner I believe), the primary objection > (certainly my main one) was that the in-tree kgdb was the only kernel debugger > available. kgdb is now available via the devel/gdb port in ports (and as of > last week was enabled by default, so 'pkg install gdb' will get you a kgdb > binary). The kgdb in ports is in general superior to the one in the base > system. It is a cross debugger by default (and with my pending patches to > libkvm it even supports cross debugging of vmcores). > > There are some issues still with devel/gdb: namely it does not currently > support some of the platforms supported by our in tree gdb such as arm and > mips. For these platforms I think the in-tree gdb will need to remain until > there is a suitable alternative. > > Comments? > > -- > John Baldwin > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 21:17:49 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DB4A1A387 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:17:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pa0-f45.google.com (mail-pa0-f45.google.com [209.85.220.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10EBC76 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:17:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: by pabrc13 with SMTP id rc13so32033601pab.0 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:17:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=4xqznBuWt5qEvqttY+TghmgEAjDM8Pq7GHI4NvEplQU=; b=FevjKUm/uXMh2xtJbMQods32MIKTHY10wHJ8EB36ENQYuEyFipeORxeccvsz33n+ku 9yyngUhW1tKcsCGgs3M5jupzhZkHCW6P1r32HsGq5AWEsIdII5ra+VRGiBCYkeCWM3j6 lmOzFcQfAx7PugaYbN8Q2+UaYYKJ7E5ps1Oj2jFLAdlL8+F9376/JcUZcoXK3kCIbIt5 YA7LMoqBIgOy8TtT3wbglLFy23rt1B+Nmx4zX3nz2jA5h/dcGGobZ4fYtUGIdBVtDAWs Sa5PJzVCek7P/ryH9LRXK4A6kAsMQHR7U21YIbmITcwxM/vp2UPUM/iswcyT/ERvcJYj VXag== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkge+n2z9YC4KHSIWQE33Ej2BWjPMBLQSczPF5cXsKVfJ9z2OCA1PGMvUvvpLJxQV86JKRb X-Received: by 10.66.219.74 with SMTP id pm10mr6161623pac.93.1445375862255; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip-100-127-129-52.ec2.internal ([69.53.245.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ux3sm5423745pac.18.2015.10.20.14.17.41 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D8B9FE86-50A1-4DA7-8AEE-C214EEC46466"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:38 -0600 Cc: freebsd-arch Message-Id: <6C0A00DD-E377-4E13-B9CA-880D4A288EFE@bsdimp.com> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> To: John Baldwin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:17:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D8B9FE86-50A1-4DA7-8AEE-C214EEC46466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 20, 2015, at 2:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > There are some issues still with devel/gdb: namely it does not = currently > support some of the platforms supported by our in tree gdb such as arm = and > mips. For these platforms I think the in-tree gdb will need to remain = until > there is a suitable alternative. What=E2=80=99s the lift for adding mips and arm support? Can we leverage = what we have done for gcc/binutils ports at all and/or what we have in the tree = today? > However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for = some of > our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should = default > to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the = following > criteria: >=20 > 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support > 2) lldb works >=20 > We could perhaps be more aggressive and handle lldb and gdb toggles > independently, but I think we want to ship some sort of userland = debugger > out of the box on all of our platforms. The question I think might be = if > we end up with platforms where 1) is true but 2) is not (such as = powerpc). >=20 > I believe that these conditions are only true for x86 currently. >=20 > Comments? I think you are making this way too complicated. I think we should just turn gdb off for all platforms. Leave it off by = default. For arm it=E2=80=99s an OK debugger, but not great. For mips it is = barely usable in its current state. So there=E2=80=99s not a huge loss in doing this. For platforms where lldb works, turn it on. Have devel/gdb available for as many platforms as it works on. Warner --Apple-Mail=_D8B9FE86-50A1-4DA7-8AEE-C214EEC46466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWJq9zAAoJEGwc0Sh9sBEAE/0P/iWXP2vNpl24QgRf1GEdKuWn WorpibEtS9YiGKKR+5kIFMubmM7QCn7eGvdQfQkWHqRThnSlVqpJp0UqTThl10Cg T9M8i4qA+2qPeXgs6L+elwqXX6gy+vw5f0UV31y45fc9Rrr93vYEWCXHLT/nSGM9 EUZSRMMsP/M3Yw/nMX8XChSw/spite2/QDCtBUi+7wMPd1QC6eFAx6w8w0MhRFR6 SaPGyjiZyfGxUFd5UoGmzjRcuzVQdzK4Kp4ELzhUjSr+aroecNftHSTaopV+HW9j fIQEhZAPAR3FgFWgH+7Cb2SOjqg0eplvxNVzuXMKolhUF7+wvvbjxqR0+x4dQX+z BylhzeY5PEqyHleuszT6skD2Ij0Rhg7Pf2Si2vnzyvlr3F7vw0F5aYPG9Q/hl6xV PMnnPEP8wTyH0NAIe2XhQAmHMnunFIe8unS1f8dORBeMHrJs9HIUPZvvLsoUFzr3 hz7rEo2gVx//tclWgmjJZ+1w1EsFaG7g8XsK8hnw6U4VsQUvB2am0ukJE8picFca iYxT4vtafIPY+/v/wvyhC3Dw5OtubjKaR3QzP6SZctnQY/2c5VwO3PDrYJ1zYtBy uLLoR+gCO5VmL5pBnHXgEewvl5GgwIbzdYh7AMmhavceOKbeyRJNwe/MXwefJIDu eSVw5gmIQRVEtb55VVM7 =sex3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D8B9FE86-50A1-4DA7-8AEE-C214EEC46466-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 21:25:51 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3841AA1A6F4 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:25:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2250913C7; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:25:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABE41A1A; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:25:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96F8164C6; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:25:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id 9Xh-ThbXI0ig; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com 3EEA8164C1 To: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> From: Bryan Drewery X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:25:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oKM8svLxEsvDXfVIVavRitwJndKXqDDIS" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:25:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oKM8svLxEsvDXfVIVavRitwJndKXqDDIS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for som= e of > our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should de= fault Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and the working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. > to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the followin= g Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to build or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. We can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users need a debugger? I don't think so. > criteria: >=20 > 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support > 2) lldb works --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --oKM8svLxEsvDXfVIVavRitwJndKXqDDIS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJrFcAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPnRYIAM4K+LCTtKLmKB621IqLmbM/ 24U5yE+QMBWpwRqqMWYQc49CFhviz0SU3/pZlHePUh3rbdrmTLJctLJJHhyW0w31 oGNHfRgxHQD0XpQjXJrLP9ddYGQIPPMAO2umbFvDVdPhc24UrosARDMHvks8TC4s KfUaci1IgmLkvHF2oT+LT3XQoHHf1JLnB4UB5IQGDa2Zd7wuu8e0/ydr4B5iwkFU cgyYOPeR2svepenLjS+9GEAnIJ5kRckTNcDigVtwhs08jSukkkB1Hahhz/FBdP4p lour8T6bAE3LthEwTPiQF2haPUNXhwK4YbTNbwYeRaRIjgVnev8ogOZBCpCWxOw= =R7vE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oKM8svLxEsvDXfVIVavRitwJndKXqDDIS-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 21:40:27 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A08A1A988 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:40:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BCF1B3E; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:40:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFF71D5C; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:40:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367F2164F9; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:40:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id mmpXuRoaOxYI; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:40:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com 8E563164F4 To: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5626B4C9.6020307@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:40:25 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J151PFmtGTMKNXgkwHL9lssRdKV494mIJ" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:40:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --J151PFmtGTMKNXgkwHL9lssRdKV494mIJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/20/2015 2:25 PM, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: >> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for so= me of >> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should d= efault >=20 > Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and th= e > working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. >=20 >> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the followi= ng >=20 > Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to buil= d > or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. >=20 > Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for > me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. W= e > can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. >=20 > If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be > adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know > lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. >=20 > Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The > discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". > The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users > need a debugger? I don't think so. >=20 >> criteria: >> >> 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support >> 2) lldb works >=20 >=20 Other things to consider is that this increases build time for a tool that only developers need. Given it is not a drop-in replacement for gdb, a tool that people have become accustomed to over several decades, the bar for adding it into the base system should be higher. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --J151PFmtGTMKNXgkwHL9lssRdKV494mIJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJrTJAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPuekIAIZnQcGZj5TxGRMBlTn76eu6 1KyofZtHx4vMh6WhxxEGiJCryPlYAjuPmd7ABxnAOmlv6v56yaB1Mx/qN5rnMdDb gV6TlvlhQlZv/tQQze7iwoE+p8jQe6MlbmSM02F0dbKk2D2JwRixrHQ7nCsDGDv7 LU7wfE+D8R1yMSFE21+kJQ3oP+3eDK70hqItu+PAcBORziCZ9DGjzn9xz3J3koJP nnWtrkI9NtMT5/F3x7kZxAs+t1d1QAmdrNMhDjG3O+ZxdHN9RYgig8VkI5oGTx9C DzQcd7lwEMS5g6IcTkU0MPJ5uHG4xLfJQUAYfF7IKBBwqNf/5rpU+Rc8maLjQ0E= =hnlV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J151PFmtGTMKNXgkwHL9lssRdKV494mIJ-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 21:51:53 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43844A1ADC9 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:51:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from erouter6.ore.mailhop.org (erouter6.ore.mailhop.org [54.187.213.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CE9E1CB for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:51:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [73.34.117.227]) by outbound3.ore.mailhop.org (Halon Mail Gateway) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:51:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id t9KLpjL5013520; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:51:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB From: Ian Lepore To: Bryan Drewery , John Baldwin , "'freebsd-arch'" Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:51:45 -0600 In-Reply-To: <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.16.5 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:51:53 -0000 On Tue, 2015-10-20 at 14:25 -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for > > some of > > our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we > > should default > > Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and > the > working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. > > > to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the > > following > > Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to > build > or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. > > Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here > for > me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. > We > can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. > > If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be > adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I > know > lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. > > Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. > The > discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". > The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users > need a debugger? I don't think so. > > > criteria: > > > > 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support > > 2) lldb works This just-won't-die meme that a "functional system" is nothing more than a bare kernel and an init binary and everything else comes from ports is extra-scary when you consider that ports can't even be (cross -)built for some architectures. It sucks that the project is adopting the mindset that the only way to compete with linux is to become linux. (And it sucks that installing a truly functional system will require end users to have roughly the same knowledge as the team that assembles a linux distro.) -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 21:52:09 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CBEA1ADE5 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DBA383; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7EE10E7; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FAB16525; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id dCobXfYqpNxk; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com 8887816520 To: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <5626B4C9.6020307@FreeBSD.org> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5626B787.1020502@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:52:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5626B4C9.6020307@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Jn8N3b7alvcxqDh51h1Qv4DCdEfeeGPUx" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:52:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Jn8N3b7alvcxqDh51h1Qv4DCdEfeeGPUx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/20/2015 2:40 PM, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 10/20/2015 2:25 PM, Bryan Drewery wrote: >> On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: >>> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for s= ome of >>> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should = default >> >> Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and t= he >> working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. >> >>> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the follow= ing >> >> Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to bui= ld >> or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. >> >> Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for= >> me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. = We >> can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. >> >> If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be >> adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know= >> lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. >> >> Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The= >> discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". >> The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users >> need a debugger? I don't think so. >> >>> criteria: >>> >>> 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support >>> 2) lldb works >> >> >=20 > Other things to consider is that this increases build time for a tool > that only developers need. Given it is not a drop-in replacement for > gdb, a tool that people have become accustomed to over several decades,= > the bar for adding it into the base system should be higher. >=20 In private discussions it was pointed out we don't have reliable packages for tier 2 architectures. That is a very valid point. I just ask that we try to shift our mindset to "pkg install" where possible. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --Jn8N3b7alvcxqDh51h1Qv4DCdEfeeGPUx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJreHAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPKGgH/iCgP3cp4gaJtWDN3v6djWts 5KzmP8zO8+elUgtWpEsae/cqJc6fnhCMAYnqY2oqtDSBnaMo0ClhBtN+7k6Xje9g w9cW1Bqtaj58VgWe/wRZkaZ+LOiM2DHqnxg2zVg2iHyX9kB0ZSYBVKjFvaTiUI7s iMuQpyqcgmHD6STW0yCBA+uBcwL8j2X7fiFHWjTfojJLkZfHmOaQTqC8Emk211rJ Z90DNpqNpabOO7YGpMJDocCX4dcZ5YFRP4n44GtuzsBO/M9F16PnowfO1rq+1z2I CkiEj4tJ5lQo1L6u2p7iwqm+weOCRaEmfcA31u0YPt9WojqRfIRVi/ZQ7iY7zNw= =UCAw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Jn8N3b7alvcxqDh51h1Qv4DCdEfeeGPUx-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:00:55 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43866A1AFDC for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C204C7D; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F557159D; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC45C16556; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:00:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id FiBYgCM5_hJt; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:00:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com A6FD616551 To: Ian Lepore , John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5626B994.1030708@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:00:52 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HAWnLgjM9uaKRd1jX8PTL1vbmJUQwkq7V" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:00:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HAWnLgjM9uaKRd1jX8PTL1vbmJUQwkq7V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/20/2015 2:51 PM, Ian Lepore wrote: > On Tue, 2015-10-20 at 14:25 -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: >> On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: >>> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for >>> some of >>> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we >>> should default >> >> Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and >> the >> working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. >> >>> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the >>> following >> >> Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to >> build >> or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. >> >> Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here >> for >> me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc.=20 >> We >> can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. >> >> If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be >> adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I >> know >> lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. >> >> Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. >> The >> discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". >> The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users >> need a debugger? I don't think so. >> >>> criteria: >>> >>> 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support >>> 2) lldb works >=20 > This just-won't-die meme that a "functional system" is nothing more > than a bare kernel and an init binary and everything else comes from > ports is extra-scary when you consider that ports can't even be (cross > -)built for some architectures. >=20 > It sucks that the project is adopting the mindset that the only way to > compete with linux is to become linux. (And it sucks that installing a= > truly functional system will require end users to have roughly the same= > knowledge as the team that assembles a linux distro.) It's not about Linux. It's about not providing the same thing twice on the system. It's about not having 2 different compilers on the system. Using ports on older releases means the base compiler is too outdated to build from ports and is thus not used. We have so much redundancy before /usr and /usr/local once you install packages or try to build from ports. There's no sane reason for that. In a world of a packaged base the default install should still mostly match what we have now for POLA. Just that it is contained in packages. My point here is that removing something is argument #1, adding something is argument #2. No one is seriously suggesting we provide a DVD with init, libc, rtld, libthr and a kernel only. That may be "a package" which is considered very critical and special, but it would be among many other packages. Yes we need cross-compiling in ports. We also need more native build servers in the cluster to provide packages. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --HAWnLgjM9uaKRd1jX8PTL1vbmJUQwkq7V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJrmUAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfP+koH/0f28dYPl3YM+gPFLbeHVw7F kiuLXolBcMS+STB92ezd/TWAcRsnlKPnFxBwTxgJdAdqWQNrwuV1jeztjSp9IdoH QvnL1CvAx6B0RlS5kyY2JDG+XGwUf8rB1wEotETuZXpbVVsoiILPN3v5cw3cgjVZ FwcgH97ihWvmFa/WUy5EH3/hW8G9r8XeMCyiVGhJ8FRTMF4xePaLmdkjDWaMjIYX /kXp+QsXZpq07mlJZwqYzUuqZB/d1H0bE1DSbbUAStSc4SAjORgg1NNWwj8B0bkQ AsHWWLO2Z56P02MTsSYm6me5Uz6g/T7g21/DmksbXDJ1Kp5t1BNp2yUhXFGVvx8= =jvQn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HAWnLgjM9uaKRd1jX8PTL1vbmJUQwkq7V-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:07:42 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258CEA1A1D2 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D642BFFA; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.84 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoenI-0009KX-6E; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:50:08 +0300 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:50:08 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Bryan Drewery Cc: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151020215008.GH42243@zxy.spb.ru> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:07:42 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 02:25:48PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for some of > > our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should default > > Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and the > working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. > > > to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the following > > Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to build > or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. > > Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for > me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. We > can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. > > If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be > adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know > lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. > > Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The > discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". > The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users > need a debugger? I don't think so. When you need debuger you may don't have way to install it. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:14:17 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2E1A1A330 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:14:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10200396; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:14:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0964A17EB; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:14:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CD0165D0; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:14:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id Pe-DDe8IYjaO; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:14:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com B108D165CB To: Slawa Olhovchenkov References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <20151020215008.GH42243@zxy.spb.ru> Cc: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5626BCB6.3000202@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:14:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151020215008.GH42243@zxy.spb.ru> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="j4BaDNiI86ramj2xlUVT5AdXO2oOve0Wi" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:14:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --j4BaDNiI86ramj2xlUVT5AdXO2oOve0Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/20/2015 2:50 PM, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 02:25:48PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: >=20 >> On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: >>> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for s= ome of >>> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should = default >> >> Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and t= he >> working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. >> >>> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the follow= ing >> >> Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to bui= ld >> or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. >> >> Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for= >> me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. = We >> can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. >> >> If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be >> adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know= >> lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. >> >> Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The= >> discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". >> The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users >> need a debugger? I don't think so. >=20 > When you need debuger you may don't have way to install it. >=20 How did you get a system? DVD? 'pkg add /mnt/cd/packages/gdb.txz' Network? 'pkg install gdb' Fetching the packages to a USB drive from another system works too using 'pkg fetch -o'. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --j4BaDNiI86ramj2xlUVT5AdXO2oOve0Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJry2AAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPTgkH/jqbtmYao+hqx0kZhZykvq1W 66zBHzSNUXzpj7yIJeYXY37SFsOvsU7tJRCf0VwBiZPCnAqkj9KAsQ/Ld7xOmlBz bPcR+YOjfvG2FP4YEepk3iAM0Qa4RJGgAnF2wsnfbJNEs8qLp8PDe6D8UtmKCtKb e/nTLUEKR3h+GNQRgDj6OUwX7k40+dB7l2Qfz3SW0uUf5l32EBNmRMoIcRpIJI43 V+4PkFyWrO6Wss2erjSPpNbUsyZRDrubV3Tz2LIyAQuictU6JMnnME/lQ24X8Sgy /R+FbVrk3Af9KDeWlB5qDXYwwWd4a7jvRQzUDwzVlzVcr32c95tnwni3lmv0w0U= =VWoH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --j4BaDNiI86ramj2xlUVT5AdXO2oOve0Wi-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:27:22 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5CEA1A57C for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:27:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98189A4A; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:27:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.84 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ZofNI-0009zt-F1; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:27:20 +0300 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:27:20 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Bryan Drewery Cc: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151020222720.GA6469@zxy.spb.ru> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <20151020215008.GH42243@zxy.spb.ru> <5626BCB6.3000202@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5626BCB6.3000202@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:27:22 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 03:14:14PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 10/20/2015 2:50 PM, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 02:25:48PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > > > >> On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > >>> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for some of > >>> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should default > >> > >> Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and the > >> working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. > >> > >>> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the following > >> > >> Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to build > >> or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. > >> > >> Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for > >> me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. We > >> can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. > >> > >> If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be > >> adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know > >> lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. > >> > >> Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The > >> discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". > >> The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users > >> need a debugger? I don't think so. > > > > When you need debuger you may don't have way to install it. > > > > How did you get a system? > > DVD? 'pkg add /mnt/cd/packages/gdb.txz' > Network? 'pkg install gdb' > > Fetching the packages to a USB drive from another system works too using > 'pkg fetch -o'. You talk about healty system. System may be semi-broken and need some assistance to r/w mount, for example. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:28:37 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0073DA1A5F2 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:28:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DC4B95; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:28:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9F81AE6; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:28:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D9F16601; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:28:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id zYdRgXbnno0u; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:28:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com 03F26165FC To: Slawa Olhovchenkov References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <20151020215008.GH42243@zxy.spb.ru> <5626BCB6.3000202@FreeBSD.org> <20151020222720.GA6469@zxy.spb.ru> Cc: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5626C012.5050009@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:28:34 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151020222720.GA6469@zxy.spb.ru> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FgNjvc0bjqHMEqoXPXkSWEtvPFKdBnDrP" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:28:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --FgNjvc0bjqHMEqoXPXkSWEtvPFKdBnDrP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/20/2015 3:27 PM, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 03:14:14PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: >=20 >> On 10/20/2015 2:50 PM, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 02:25:48PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: >>>>> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for= some of >>>>> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we shoul= d default >>>> >>>> Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and= the >>>> working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. >>>> >>>>> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the foll= owing >>>> >>>> Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to b= uild >>>> or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. >>>> >>>> Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here f= or >>>> me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc.= We >>>> can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. >>>> >>>> If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be >>>> adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I kn= ow >>>> lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. >>>> >>>> Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. T= he >>>> discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default".= >>>> The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users= >>>> need a debugger? I don't think so. >>> >>> When you need debuger you may don't have way to install it. >>> >> >> How did you get a system? >> >> DVD? 'pkg add /mnt/cd/packages/gdb.txz' >> Network? 'pkg install gdb' >> >> Fetching the packages to a USB drive from another system works too usi= ng >> 'pkg fetch -o'. >=20 > You talk about healty system. > System may be semi-broken and need some assistance to r/w mount, for > example. >=20 How does that relate to gdb? I can only read your example as suggesting we need a /rescue/gdb too. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --FgNjvc0bjqHMEqoXPXkSWEtvPFKdBnDrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJsASAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPORUH/icLB41GrIrjF68irCNwkmFQ CDQSmlmP++3FuhwgghvftrjeHjq8PQiC0Tg8FuRbW8TVcY++iPsr7JO2cCv3ssTJ w1aBAV1t6MYzwyLCh8tKbt6wIkx3bzvTV9aNXMFbmCAR9cP163mtyJQpc2Num37D FowUxgPq1kPLfiY33+VwxcNvEEjPtu9m1OqB0ep0HfIpvriiVGkfGFh33c92w2w7 6gVFkO/ibPp4VOOrzsrmfmAbC72FIx48poZQjEAhRmLrUsGsKLZdFJcS2eu/lqTY hMNi9F2L/EycqQgGB6qNLlijScnIGVoXAK578F4wBshouS9noI5rGpWDRAE0zCI= =n/vh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FgNjvc0bjqHMEqoXPXkSWEtvPFKdBnDrP-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:37:14 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125ADA1A822 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:37:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0DE9FD6; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:37:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.84 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ZofWo-000ABf-Cq; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:37:10 +0300 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:37:10 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Bryan Drewery Cc: John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151020223710.GI42243@zxy.spb.ru> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <5626B4C9.6020307@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5626B4C9.6020307@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:37:14 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 02:40:25PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > Other things to consider is that this increases build time for a tool > that only developers need. Given it is not a drop-in replacement for > gdb, a tool that people have become accustomed to over several decades, > the bar for adding it into the base system should be higher. Build time is wrong goal: end user don't need recompile system. Right way: for general purpose (not embeded system and not kernel developer) system don't need be recompiling. All features and tunuing may be do by sysctl (prefer) or loader tunable. Tracking -STABLE may be done in binary form, may be from private build server. If you talk about recompile system and also talk "install compiler package for system reompile" -- I am remeber badly Linux's time, with incompatible combinations of kernel, userland, libc, compiler, package manager and other hell. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Oct 20 22:41:37 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB540A1A9FB for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:41:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A7212CE; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:41:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.84 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Zofb5-000AGQ-GE; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:41:35 +0300 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:41:35 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Bryan Drewery Cc: 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151020224135.GJ42243@zxy.spb.ru> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <20151020215008.GH42243@zxy.spb.ru> <5626BCB6.3000202@FreeBSD.org> <20151020222720.GA6469@zxy.spb.ru> <5626C012.5050009@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5626C012.5050009@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:41:38 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 03:28:34PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 10/20/2015 3:27 PM, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 03:14:14PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > > > >> On 10/20/2015 2:50 PM, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > >>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 02:25:48PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 10/20/2015 1:36 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > >>>>> However, I would like to propose that we retire the in-tree GDB for some of > >>>>> our platforms (namely x86) for 11. In particular, I think we should default > >>>> > >>>> Disabling/removing gdb. Definitely. It is unusable in many cases and the > >>>> working gdb is just a 'pkg install' away. > >>>> > >>>>> to enabling lldb and disabling gdb for platforms that meet the following > >>>> > >>>> Why should we include lldb in the base system? It is not needed to build > >>>> or use the system and we can easily provide one from packages. > >>>> > >>>> Arguments about providing a default working system don't work here for > >>>> me as we don't provide perl, python, valgrind, vim, emacs, X11, etc. We > >>>> can provide lldb and gdb on the default DVD though. > >>>> > >>>> If we are actually going to "package base" in 11, we should not be > >>>> adding new things into base that can easily live in ports. Yes, I know > >>>> lldb is already there but I don't think it should be. > >>>> > >>>> Can the same be said for tools such as truss, ktrace or nvi? Sure. The > >>>> discussion is really "what packages should be installed by default". > >>>> The answer should be "what all, or most, users _need_" Do most users > >>>> need a debugger? I don't think so. > >>> > >>> When you need debuger you may don't have way to install it. > >>> > >> > >> How did you get a system? > >> > >> DVD? 'pkg add /mnt/cd/packages/gdb.txz' > >> Network? 'pkg install gdb' > >> > >> Fetching the packages to a USB drive from another system works too using > >> 'pkg fetch -o'. > > > > You talk about healty system. > > System may be semi-broken and need some assistance to r/w mount, for > > example. > > > > How does that relate to gdb? gdb related to kgdb? or kgdb is independed? I am some time use kgdb for change some kernel variables, don't controled by sysctl at that time. > I can only read your example as suggesting we need a /rescue/gdb too. I am don't break system to this state, but may be /rescue/gdb will be good. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 08:19:09 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F317A1A6C5 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:19:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D651DE5; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:19:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id CB7055618B; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:00:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:00:29 -0500 From: Mark Linimon To: Ian Lepore Cc: Bryan Drewery , John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151021000029.GB24405@lonesome.com> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:19:09 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 03:51:45PM -0600, Ian Lepore wrote: > This just-won't-die meme that a "functional system" is nothing more > than a bare kernel and an init binary and everything else comes from > ports is extra-scary I think this is an exaggeration. IMHO it's a legitimate question to ask, "what is a minimal base system". Note: I (have to) use debian at work. I was given the task "figure out what parts of all this mess were installed by what, and which ones we even need in the first place". I do not want to go there. It took me days to do the forensics, and then script a build-from-scratch mode. I do think we can ask "how many people need the test suite" and "how many people need 3 firewalls". I do not think we can ask "how many people need the base compiler". Well, if asked, answered: all of them, if we want to keep being FreeBSD. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 10:44:06 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BAE6A1A997 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FE8411A6; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.84 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoqsD-000OkY-T0; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:44:01 +0300 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:44:01 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Bryan Drewery Cc: Ian Lepore , John Baldwin , 'freebsd-arch' Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151021104401.GK42243@zxy.spb.ru> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> <5626B994.1030708@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5626B994.1030708@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:44:06 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 03:00:52PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: > >>> criteria: > >>> > >>> 1) devel/gdb works including thread and kgdb support > >>> 2) lldb works > > > > This just-won't-die meme that a "functional system" is nothing more > > than a bare kernel and an init binary and everything else comes from > > ports is extra-scary when you consider that ports can't even be (cross > > -)built for some architectures. > > > > It sucks that the project is adopting the mindset that the only way to > > compete with linux is to become linux. (And it sucks that installing a > > truly functional system will require end users to have roughly the same > > knowledge as the team that assembles a linux distro.) > > It's not about Linux. It's about not providing the same thing twice on > the system. It's about not having 2 different compilers on the system. > Using ports on older releases means the base compiler is too outdated to > build from ports and is thus not used. We have so much redundancy before > /usr and /usr/local once you install packages or try to build from > ports. There's no sane reason for that. > > In a world of a packaged base the default install should still mostly > match what we have now for POLA. Just that it is contained in packages. > My point here is that removing something is argument #1, adding > something is argument #2. > > No one is seriously suggesting we provide a DVD with init, libc, rtld, > libthr and a kernel only. That may be "a package" which is considered > very critical and special, but it would be among many other packages. > > Yes we need cross-compiling in ports. We also need more native build > servers in the cluster to provide packages. Currently, ports, need to compile gcc49, have run depend of whole gcc49. This is not 'less compile'. And may cause many problems if outdated compiler will be conflict with new compiler. Base system now act as fixit bootrom: independed from application, all-sufficient, full functional and always consistent. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 11:37:25 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FF7A1A91A for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmmv@meroh.net) Received: from mail-qk0-f181.google.com (mail-qk0-f181.google.com [209.85.220.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 560B9E18 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:37:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmmv@meroh.net) Received: by qkfm62 with SMTP id m62so29579754qkf.1 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:37:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=1WPO7mBdzmfqEqYnVmBEk8nn6+Os5WAXrkyobaosNJU=; b=XwwL4ffFdXWDqjwx6Vk0/A26yOIliLqeWkqBPdfbwglyEtG8HsF0oR3yKis38dxUvL kBriqOtLrEfGzMqBfTDBT0drSoG8PevOSLGS8J170JY8DHK3gx+WIRLEiDYfDSsBNnlT ekW2xLK3Tkj1e7nBEs17agO17GU/+CALeizzPYXC5befJ37MUaKsk5dQ5jrGKwRZ3POC Yetu/3nk4Bal2GM1pL/EkgsTsXokdMUvVJ7H++i4cXGwu1Sa4qaKtxWVQlbUJ1gi4fts 1j2wp5lZ/QFXvbQJMSIFbulebUWQSNkUZmdTjscgfjnwLcHXxcCFSkKXHD8hjzECI0Ea Tqbg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkHtdIE0WpXhT/eYrSGMyn8ViN3+JwYzCI5xwyxKHnlidDfSmni2koeQNxhfew8u2Ooad3p X-Received: by 10.140.93.104 with SMTP id c95mr10197758qge.101.1445427437732; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620::1003:100d:41fb:c466:d2ac:cf2? ([2620:0:1003:100d:41fb:c466:d2ac:cf2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s48sm3099408qgs.4.2015.10.21.04.37.16 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Julio Merino Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.0 \(3094\)) Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB From: Julio Merino In-Reply-To: <20151021000029.GB24405@lonesome.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:37:16 -0400 Cc: Ian Lepore , freebsd-arch , Bryan Drewery Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E0B7D30-78A6-4ABF-A617-01E43B093CB2@freebsd.org> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> <20151021000029.GB24405@lonesome.com> To: Mark Linimon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3094) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:37:25 -0000 > On Oct 20, 2015, at 20:00, Mark Linimon wrote: >=20 > I do not think we can ask "how many people need the base compiler". > Well, if asked, answered: all of them, if we want to keep being > FreeBSD. And why would that be? What makes this FreeBSD? Traditionally, a compiler has always been required because the only way = to upgrade a BSD system was by recompiling it from source, and the only = way to install extra software was by building it from ports. Things = have changed: it's now possible to have a fully-functional, up-to-date = system, with packages without ever compiling anything. Having a = compiler in the base system is not a necessity any more (for amd64, at = least). No, I'm not in favor of removing the compiler from the base system; I = think it has to stay for various other reasons. I'm just questioning = the axiom you threw above. What I'll argue is that subjecting the user to ever have to recompile = anything, for the majority of use cases, is bad. And FreeBSD does not = do this any longer: as mentioned above, it's now possible to have a = functional system without compiling anything, so the compiler could now = be optional. Also, as a long-time NetBSD user, I was a bit surprised when I came to = FreeBSD to find that the compiler tools were not optional. In NetBSD, = the compiler tools have always been part of a comp.tgz set separate from = base.tgz. Both are built from the source tree in unison, but when = installing a new machine you can easily choose not to have comp.tgz. I = have run lean servers without compilers for a long time, and it was just = fine. I guess we are off-topic now...= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 16:58:00 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467CCA1B341 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:58:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCF3775; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:58:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295121FF1; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:58:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78C115BEB; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:57:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id 39getIQGgfqU; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:57:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: login -f changing session getlogin(2) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com 9AC6415BE4 To: Jilles Tjoelker References: <560D826D.7000302@FreeBSD.org> <20151001203436.GA22737@stack.nl> <560DAD6D.7050007@FreeBSD.org> <20151003210857.GA57303@stack.nl> Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5627C413.1060106@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:57:55 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151003210857.GA57303@stack.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7dRmrx1WmCiWEGLK9TlOpPXIeMgMgNaP6" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:58:00 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --7dRmrx1WmCiWEGLK9TlOpPXIeMgMgNaP6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/3/2015 2:08 PM, Jilles Tjoelker wrote: > On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 03:02:21PM -0700, Bryan Drewery wrote: >> Can't we use something like forkpty(3) for the child to avoid the issu= es >> you mention? It calls setsid(2) via login_tty(3). >=20 > This would make sense for a special impersonation tool or for a paranoi= d > version of su, but not for a normal login. >=20 > You can do this right now using script(1), for example > script /dev/null login -f SOMEUSER >=20 Leaving this bug here in unacceptable to me. It is a clear POLA violation and is sternly documented in setlogin(2) as the wrong thing to = do. There seems to be unwillingness to discuss actual potential fixes. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --7dRmrx1WmCiWEGLK9TlOpPXIeMgMgNaP6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJ8QTAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPbk4IANTuPCbZY++cxOr720kusB0J hh+rqtVDjC/fiqoNoJbL6SLFy+MUlcrRxoJe7pxlm2X337uUOTH2rTgLAzeTxmsR mbsR6xf5IPrPNFk8B7EZ73HTtrVgFDMw9cp3NGMKX+QYdDx0p9xKZRk9+Ln12ZPn 3cWEyP5QIKimH1Ibp8TxjGOME+4eyoQ+TXb9kLGOHalOh3HaHrQ34V62oGQhEfrg 97DjVLVNlvdCSLtXiA5RZJwBfd6wlMC+9R3nllxr/dB+TxoIjZR/6Eu5yZ56khH7 3BUl+ZA7QguDIlglGv0hHh8cCanezdOai6+tqxIveHx60JcHzyf+JjU+cnGFzvk= =f7jL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7dRmrx1WmCiWEGLK9TlOpPXIeMgMgNaP6-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 17:05:23 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7937A1B5BF for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:05:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFE4BB7 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:05:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6001118C for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:05:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D7D15C24 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:05:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id BpRevQHcdj1q for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:05:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: login -f changing session getlogin(2) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 mail.xzibition.com 68BAD15C1E To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20151001203436.GA22737@stack.nl> <560D826D.7000302@FreeBSD.org> <201510012121.t91LLJ9h025117@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <5627C5D4.6090203@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:05:24 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201510012121.t91LLJ9h025117@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SRBcOaJalt7RM4DFJ9gNs34vBLSgandjL" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:05:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --SRBcOaJalt7RM4DFJ9gNs34vBLSgandjL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/1/2015 2:21 PM, Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article <20151001203436.GA22737@stack.nl>, jilles@stack.nl writes: >=20 >> I think the supposed use case for login -f is a remote login daemon th= at >> handles authentication by itself but wants to delegate account and >> session functionality. Indeed, sshd has UseLogin, but it is rarely use= d >> and discouraged. >=20 > Historically, as I remember it, "login" was a shell built-in that was > effectively an alias for "exec login". It may still be that way in > antique csh. The assumption from time immemorial is that if login > exits, the parent process will not distinguish it from any other > logout, so login is permitted to overwrite persistent session state. >=20 Yes, if 'login' always exited the parent too then it would not be a probl= em. If we're making that assumption though then why do we so carefully handle setting up the user context, uid and pam sessions in the child? If 'login' should not be a user tool and we cannot fix this case then perhaps it should move to /usr/libexec/login so it is not in the default path where the user will be enticed to use it. --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --SRBcOaJalt7RM4DFJ9gNs34vBLSgandjL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWJ8XUAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPJHsIAKn7guVhxoHAtzRMe+xHmyI0 W9KM7GUYHcgqPLR1gY6Ds2z1rkmek6edYYf6FJUxuJpKQjbOHM6Dm5aApjlqyV0M z0KDq/yEuZMkQRfes3v+agxiezWK4t6TXmybaU+fNgONx9cq5TUP90E/u4F4RPUu WBnQRAny+YKBBrxLsJFqUyI258PacUV8mUy/YbOgc90SK+9GSO0D0JUVzox5gW+3 fl+FWSQ5LDWrUM+cc3i26JR9sWiUIJgofjcrhhrdsM478p0q7/lcYckPkdmuNTTj atlcPEXGJjt/nTsPGRCCNcwqScJyxMQIhnXgudSvkGHDgUd/hAfAdyw+ZE4iMag= =5JG0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SRBcOaJalt7RM4DFJ9gNs34vBLSgandjL-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 19:36:59 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5ABCA1B9C6 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:36:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0321C5; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:36:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A330B56163; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:36:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:36:58 -0500 From: Mark Linimon To: Ian Lepore Cc: 'freebsd-arch' , Bryan Drewery Subject: Re: Retiring in-tree GDB Message-ID: <20151021193658.GC9186@lonesome.com> References: <2678091.es0AGJQ0Ou@ralph.baldwin.cx> <5626B15C.4080408@FreeBSD.org> <1445377905.99375.22.camel@freebsd.org> <20151021000029.GB24405@lonesome.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151021000029.GB24405@lonesome.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:36:59 -0000 On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 07:00:29PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote: > I do not think we can ask "how many people need the base compiler". > Well, if asked, answered: all of them, if we want to keep being > FreeBSD. Apparently I needed to make explicit "in my opinion". mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Oct 21 23:14:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9A4A1B951 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C4919D6 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 946EDA1B94F; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1E4A1B94D for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com (mail-pa0-f54.google.com [209.85.220.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50C1C19D3 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so67614875pas.2 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=ANO41QZauPrc3mfqSinMBECaPImJXb8tmPq1nPjo93s=; b=X8ULcXMqLOFT5LUmOiRWtpTIYn8cuwwGqXUWLQf9RKrZlIgLESwwfFODr/LPlzrJQw XLfaRXzCHk7hKcJIMCwfrhVunMDpIVG8RsmBOKt7vg/AzLuu1fk8eOre72lUJ6bVJY66 NfJ1//bPjHrVtTuvlkOkqa2YnIL+61fgiMvHFwOQskbXVPOymZ/OEiuz6nS0h9jz2SVm fRMGkFuK3ulYTdwGR9LDqc0uZP8tWWN82lVnu3hgQ1D2k4jh47LtkderQ3oD7UlOpvSd UJFelpKXrKpjUhv+HGwZScLxotUrtFsc/FYH7fr09huGKIpXLsSVRVO09k412r6JSawX 53/A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkLwayFb+HTMlxlB8E4xVPyRiK31qpYYOkyJmlo1H/hCtoV2Gizg5OpG/qg3E2bqF2PX6ln X-Received: by 10.68.227.227 with SMTP id sd3mr13627966pbc.116.1445469271671; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [100.127.128.44] ([69.53.245.4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ns1sm11019189pbc.67.2015.10.21.16.14.30 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Subject: Re: svn commit: r289710 - in head/sys/modules: i2c/iicbb uart Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_282D0F5B-E85D-4B56-8E6F-CCC73F5B3C80"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:14:28 -0600 Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <79E318B6-4556-4323-9D40-14269B470DA4@bsdimp.com> References: <201510211830.t9LIUgWt061526@repo.freebsd.org> To: Ed Maste X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_282D0F5B-E85D-4B56-8E6F-CCC73F5B3C80 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 21, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Ed Maste wrote: >=20 > On 21 October 2015 at 14:30, Ed Maste wrote: >> Author: emaste >> Date: Wed Oct 21 18:30:42 2015 >> New Revision: 289710 >> URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/289710 >>=20 >> Log: >> Build ofw_bus_if.h for modules that need it on arm64 >=20 > Module Makefile build rules for ofw_bus_if.h are a bit of a mess; some > modules build it unconditionally while others build it only on certain > archs. There are a large number of different combinations of sparc64, > mips, powerpc, arm, and aarch64. This is true for a number of other > arch-specific module Makefile support. Should we have MK_* knobs to > control these cases -- e.g. MK_OFW (MK_FDT?) here? That would at least > move the arch-specific tests to a common location. How much of the swamp do you want to drain? None: Create MK_OFW (not MK_FDT: it already means something else). Add a few lines to src.opts.mk. Watch me complain :) A little: Add DEV_OFW to options. Add DEV_OFW to the relevant KERN_OPTS clauses in sys/conf/config.mk and then test for it like so in the = modules makefiles: .if (${KERN_OPTS:MDEV_OFW}) =E2=80=A6 .endif Maybe add it in config.mk if MK_FDT is defined, but I=E2=80=99d prefer = not That=E2=80=99s what we=E2=80=99re really testing for here: is this = kernel likely to have the OFW routines being called. A lot: rewrite config(8). I=E2=80=99m hoping you=E2=80=99ll pick =E2=80=9Ca little=E2=80=9D to not = make things worse. Warner --Apple-Mail=_282D0F5B-E85D-4B56-8E6F-CCC73F5B3C80 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWKBxVAAoJEGwc0Sh9sBEAZ5UQANDuxcf5AoPIciDP7hKJk4In RclltBr7lkydMzjIfJJpBhZ5OF4OYpK79EcsTeuuqs0iXZYUwG/VS4TW1wL1M4jk kKhgR566o/Uh8g54//GTf+vk3+pik/x5yfno9IyR+I5h68rtQWncKN9ABq5PITTM FQVpS7yUc3/Rc/DpJJzEeKawcap1yPBShHsKdNgSRJRaVL5P5f2G6lm/xi+OyPtR aL57u+Lzp6AYAgSEfo/cu0rVE0q+tOnDUmt7alum1cz/HRO09ZYmhSgf+3RGeGs5 QLFoyZABYX1QECl9P3wSVV9Pr7Z9nBog06CZLubG0S4aFLDXmsZzMgeVO1ccgczQ mwF2tybWH6+qqkaU2ERO3Pg12uDG3Sd1jaz5u8w2bFNJmepNhlsL9aVojegRrEy5 6SrgqR9npxRD1Ywha0QxWG6s0bnvwZ5nPL/NNlfvNYjDCwACvfJvp0lYAFpFiH9z vEu0obksO+jkIvBNsgaATgqhYNKgGcNnsvNTQRUh8Lty/cWcC/+gYMSr8a3bhhe7 0pocUIJPNLBD7rarPr0W/FsJQqLByGX2+Fo36nuGgFHjnvktjjOFsS1SZrgrHsFx A/pTYLm6JvHLU9NQn+o8wz5ETTpZArMQz5sK1GrSK2nVcdwklWf92CLgw/ukjmby yiv6/8pi1pLNGEaE+87d =uHEi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_282D0F5B-E85D-4B56-8E6F-CCC73F5B3C80--