From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 02:18:40 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4D4DBAC2C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E76D6543F for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8DCC9DBAC2B; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:18:40 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6F6DBAC2A for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-yb0-x235.google.com (mail-yb0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63B2A6543E for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mail-yb0-x235.google.com with SMTP id v12so5417645ybj.5 for ; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 18:18:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Pn/a7pffmYFgyKvtZmRwiUE3xM/SLYVetA//RwkIe2M=; b=nbzKI0NOPrwoSKHiiMwJ17kxW62RVE78WKDyQdiWG21F3O7YXutQoXPwEiPlPrhSKZ xmpKhbJKz73Gmbk6NggBp9IZ03s3FD3qknRVt9n57d/WDJQ+mOJVuPTitjw+G7U5pMZM 0dBoD28WErZeKmtVgPDxFv16XMBraY0AKbGOE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Pn/a7pffmYFgyKvtZmRwiUE3xM/SLYVetA//RwkIe2M=; b=js+ZOPK3MFldH048aL5GJJTf40ovNZgo4ABmCH2bnXzm2KbkRz9BARG0AW/inw/YHS dS/bcUjpj6Vb1fGv3Wi62qF15GO9sc7I1HTRaitIzD104VkVby8o39cdHkdgq2r6GxW/ EnKCUUyKiNstmeKbXAmenu3ahXazJqXPyi4BYi0boPtyVqpejxOYtUoReITgIK3+VC25 rgSMRb88PI5GCkLv/6jXb4k/f+D5YwClWKKAy80h1A1lrmBhj7jJrPauPCD+Rj9wAIoC xm2oMFp5/+Dmu1KwN08Brq3Wf7l3OuxFYYFJjJ+TpvjyNQ8LWegTEe1qbOIgEEIEHqQ3 Gf+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL6AHG7xaQht3Z9gLKKha6COxkDk9oywVPgEa/iw1Dek6sSa/wa /afs1F669GTN7zeO+EBIsZeuXltriqGpMLHFOmMlVrE2 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZlbABaw01inCYgvYG4a69J9ZcafC8d04PCBCX4w9bRIG4uaK4gHYpanPbs3VQi7jXNMD6RSL9MdvPJIhVAbm0= X-Received: by 10.37.179.18 with SMTP id l18mr1557745ybj.171.1512267519209; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 18:18:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.15.66 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:18:08 -0800 (PST) From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:18:08 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 02:18:40 -0000 Hi all, I'd like to remove floppy drive support from FreeBSD: - The physical media is no longer produced - Computers produced in the last 10-15 years don't have a floppy drive reader - There are still a few open bug reports relating to floppies(!) - Its several thousand lines of code that could be removed Is there any reason to continue supporting floppy drives in FreeBSD 12.0+? -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 03:09:27 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AEACDD7E60 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:09:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A88767687 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:09:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 59D8ADD7E5F; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:09:27 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59710DD7E5E for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:09:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDA4B67686 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:09:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id u62so6520802ita.2 for ; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 19:09:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=pvnBXoo8FrhK+pRrji+LjAbPC1yafjFYegtvFjECkAM=; b=ylAxzW1uPhq43a6cmMMr389RgFN76gi9qkkJT6vNn0/J4InDTpU1oUpQ4tmzB4rzNy 82XopIUFjiLBUUtxFBRNi6xqH2o0HyTxZpauJTHiTEUocXlzvA1P0a5OIMNFoMBoNsQ6 jHbDc/bsCQ8Z1A5FgE6Al2cvetnm5a4HPKpKnTWtI0Ge/EsOcq4oPJ7QqeXM7luaAzyV uYuMTwwg/DG7pORAcaVyQXMZ1OgMpdIJFJY9dehJA2Vj0zqrNa7YI0Xj4bupqjiDJ8lg xPi+B+sOsg8UF5H+k4JITBrg/Gp00nw0iSzhxQStcaCmsi9g8BuqkYv3gHipardZubXx 6D5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pvnBXoo8FrhK+pRrji+LjAbPC1yafjFYegtvFjECkAM=; b=TGREtRvb5Arw4xrNKF79NeARTNLanD3aneUveK5HlZZmrooH1Z8/miLM5Y0YEebgHM XM4B12p5xfzGOAxRUkH3FHZPuwonNZPmjJDMr2EJusfwPvHT551U7HCiLMVL+FUqVrhe Z86TFc3P8hLyCtAkqiEIfcoxXV4dX3tW6Ow9CmQe6tWtPgWWHflc3kBbqj7iSZ51GnBw t1n89p6zLeK0RGLEUbP7QhZOVTGw03GMLAvdykHYwIpoM/6DE1sGH9aw4N9hCFdKk3Cq X2bO8t8/xapDHSsO8zfe3cNPzVyQOqqOI3zNuVCrF5l/gRz03/M36lFh3ezM6dZoqpHJ a/uA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4KOKcZ/8B9PfoPeCa1FQssBaBRW+savsKea4UwBct1yp19TACe wJWtFiPPuJtXcknhlr4xZqK7kQxmAFbji9xcISmZTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYSrslFvlEEsZ+Xw8roIWu0plH7ZtDxoCPS/FZOBj151g3YxQMpirT+isNt4KRT+5Q0FeiIf5FxBkv1B1DDiEc= X-Received: by 10.36.164.13 with SMTP id z13mr8409851ite.115.1512270565928; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: References: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:09:25 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: -A2V9p9kMmURpcRsXrn0zQ3NVRg Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Eitan Adler Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:09:27 -0000 On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to remove floppy drive support from FreeBSD: > > - The physical media is no longer produced > There's still one company producing 3.5" floppies, though it's in super low volume. And the media is still readily available. > - Computers produced in the last 10-15 years don't have a floppy drive > reader > More like 8 years, but regardless of the actual year, that's also a weak argument. > - There are still a few open bug reports relating to floppies(!) > That would show it's still in use. > - Its several thousand lines of code that could be removed > Clang is much more than that. > Is there any reason to continue supporting floppy drives in FreeBSD 12.0+? That's a backwards question to project. However, to make your argument legit: Floppy support has been decaying for years. It hasn't worked well since FreeBSD 6, and was completely broken sometime after FreeBSD 10 was branched. We lost support for having two floppies on the same bus around FreeBSD 7. And using fdcontrol to set the format became tricking between FreeBSD 8 and 9. Floppies written today contain garbage due to ISA DMA breakages post FreeBSD 10. They simply don't work at all in 11, and nobody has stepped up to fix them. (I tried last summer, and gave up and got a kyroflux.com board instead). Floppies used to be important, but not any more. We've lost the only platform that required one to boot off floppies (pc98) and the older x86 that required it doesn't run FreeBSD anymore anyway. We never supported fdc on non x86 platforms, so those aren't a consideration. We do have some floppy support in umass, but that should stay since USB floppy drives are still a thing. Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's deprecated, but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has been a shadow of its former self for much longer than that. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 03:13:41 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93A8DEB21F for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894E667AD0 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 88A55DEB21D; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:13:41 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88459DEB21B for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-yb0-x22d.google.com (mail-yb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5137667ACF for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mail-yb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id i15so5442705ybk.0 for ; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 19:13:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3K1pW3QIJ3z0yknsL3c1sad7JDkXE6Bc3umgTkDi58U=; b=AOad+nSfBnXIJRvujivL4zu2Co8MraLyfxEtg6XV5++WGKDu4LGHrVcDVGkmqqlmxD rYblZHT5sOADXHonxsMtPR0PnTJM/XFBz6v5dZ7tQYnXVWcAIN0RGiUWgT0sl3b3YTiL SZDUQsZA+R9gzKcB06wRcos17eDphMrZTUYxk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3K1pW3QIJ3z0yknsL3c1sad7JDkXE6Bc3umgTkDi58U=; b=B4GmVswcPRTXCfUU3MGXZLi01Wp+7Ju8R5fAfvTDAVjEbIA2hMU1zFLHZ4DZT8cDVY cQBfgk8dPMirXgX2SLQe7QTN5aPllIAENmPmaJu49jqUq53ZJ5+o4H/8LyRRS+/tni1I lxRbi5ycO0/s71EJ8e4K8m2FVOWr6KW4vwmu37VxnjbwBvduWk7fjtJQci/9BEw0Q7iU hXfhpvA+ZDqsG/DqYU0a3DliBkbb4MI0ggOtyocoEBy5Fu5GNiP/te59PDteWms+eCCM U0APWxoS1kwYpQAQ7rpZVoJfGg3wUjKFSd0/iuC4lN4/HblqahNnZOKqrnZvgpHGzTBY hG2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6ZuxMwySRP7FQC2lZzqoxayoLgKEkR1vKJbtUWbxibEJEpi6BQ rXuc9j99FuwM3qoy5idlVSWFRdPtQshW9NW3R4vdUg9N X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYZvrcEEW+NPN051x00fWuW1II5gJzkcmqUhJtNpTE017lKmxYjUV75Nv+Sdv5Aod1AjmKldnP7OFBJvoFCQqk= X-Received: by 10.37.35.81 with SMTP id j78mr6535259ybj.517.1512270819754; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 19:13:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.15.66 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:13:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:13:41 -0000 On 2 December 2017 at 18:18, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to remove floppy drive support from FreeBSD: To clarify: this proposed removing fdc, related utilities, boot support. It does not touch USB floppy drives. https://reviews.freebsd.org/differential/diff/36131/ is an untested *first draft* of the proposed change. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 03:31:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE2FDEBC5D for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF5168354 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5A615DEBC5C; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:31:37 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A115DEBC5B for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B6F368351 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LL02eHM4DGvLHLL04ec0GC; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 20:31:30 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=a9pAzQaF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=uyavkMrdAAAA:8 a=ssOL5SfDAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=ssATYl4lQXMYopyDizUA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=8LnpB_PULU4A:10 a=j2_G595jqNHTxQgNwHU2:22 a=vkwYaAuEtClaY4KaWyJH:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C66CCAB0; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB33VPW9023876; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:31:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB33VPmC023873; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712030331.vB33VPmC023873@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sat, 02 Dec 2017 20:09:25 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 19:31:25 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBty0AcD8Od2U68QjYNtotM3h0y0mVmD1PAXCisBeuBexouj4K36L9fROHoVXIQys9PmNXNs4fO294M6Sdc0PoPwghjxMXzg9jvYwERSS+J9ro5gpXtr mAAy9fX2M34wHeDcmN879EC7DPUbs/faFWN7TnmKEn1/vqy4y0AiLiYYU1Ed10mH8K50s7WyKn+3Lj2FddPAMIEr6DYAAV8icW53ExVH2biaWpFEnhnr8v5y X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:31:37 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I'd like to remove floppy drive support from FreeBSD: > > > > - The physical media is no longer produced > > > > There's still one company producing 3.5" floppies, though it's in super low > volume. And the media is still readily available. I can still buy them here in Victoria, BC. They're still floating around at $JOB. > > > > - Computers produced in the last 10-15 years don't have a floppy drive > > reader > > > > More like 8 years, but regardless of the actual year, that's also a weak > argument. Agreed. > > > > - There are still a few open bug reports relating to floppies(!) > > > > That would show it's still in use. I'd be willing to tackle them once I've worked through my current stack of projects. > > > > - Its several thousand lines of code that could be removed > > > > Clang is much more than that. > > > > Is there any reason to continue supporting floppy drives in FreeBSD 12.0+? > > > That's a backwards question to project. > > However, to make your argument legit: > > Floppy support has been decaying for years. It hasn't worked well since > FreeBSD 6, and was completely broken sometime after FreeBSD 10 was > branched. We lost support for having two floppies on the same bus around > FreeBSD 7. And using fdcontrol to set the format became tricking between > FreeBSD 8 and 9. Floppies written today contain garbage due to ISA DMA > breakages post FreeBSD 10. They simply don't work at all in 11, and nobody > has stepped up to fix them. (I tried last summer, and gave up and got a > kyroflux.com board instead). Floppies used to be important, but not any > more. We've lost the only platform that required one to boot off floppies > (pc98) and the older x86 that required it doesn't run FreeBSD anymore > anyway. We never supported fdc on non x86 platforms, so those aren't a > consideration. > > We do have some floppy support in umass, but that should stay since USB > floppy drives are still a thing. bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very different it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat instead. > > Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's deprecated, > but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has been a > shadow of its former self for much longer than that. The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for the purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD drives. My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the ability to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some form of support fd or ufd. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 03:34:16 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589C7DEBDAD for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:34:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.wilcox-tech.com [45.32.83.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.wilcox-tech.com", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4073E6850A for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 03:34:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: (qmail 5080 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2017 03:34:06 -0000 Received: from 107-131-85-28.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net (HELO ?192.168.1.78?) (awilcox@wilcox-tech.com@107.131.85.28) by mail.wilcox-tech.com with ESMTPA; 3 Dec 2017 03:34:06 -0000 Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: From: "A. Wilcox" X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <5A2370A9.1020406@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 21:34:01 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sx0m1fmKqE6FxewKL2VArQh2he5bbIcId" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:34:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --sx0m1fmKqE6FxewKL2VArQh2he5bbIcId Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/12/17 21:09, Warner Losh wrote: > the older x86 that required it doesn't run FreeBSD anymore > anyway. is this an official acknowledgement of the PR that I attempted to file before I even changed my name[1] but was shooed away because "it works in qemu"? n.b. printf never succeeded even at the beginning of init386; at that point my day job was far too pressing to continue tinkering for a while. Of course, I gave up completely after being called an idiot for even trying[2]. Not that such an acknowledgement would make me /happy/ (on the contrary, my last FreeBSD computer is a Pentium II that is still clinging to 9-stable because 10 and 11 don't boot on it; haven't tried 12), but at least the project seems(?) to be ready to acknowledge that the hardware notes for x86 are a bold face lie[3] and that FreeBSD does *not* support chips that don't have SSE any more. --arw [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2015-February/054659.= html [2]: https://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd@fug.com.br/msg76535.html [3]: https://www.freebsd.org/releases/11.1R/hardware.html#proc --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python) https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/ --sx0m1fmKqE6FxewKL2VArQh2he5bbIcId Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJaI3CpAAoJEMspy1GSK50U5F8P/RbDRJWN89L5B+da8nrWECNF 6if2yadeLpxoTWY4LSDRw7r3hW8YTBF2PKBR3XWZfsLaKCj3FrQEi/1vtYeqyRL6 QtwJJyGKaVofcrjm5soBxKCbgIy6SRVh5NAg1Uj9bSyKpNkdFL9ii9DvSSDLEvhn 2mFHrBD5WiMi0bdIv9FuX6cQcoObCJLgS1uIfa+KuTlXlFmR8Mn3cqebbRFBeHsJ wMS6HwU/C+dYHeGFZ+qetnobMijSD5mfUx7shZo0hcOGNRCFAch2HynRTdmOsqBo aEuD5KfOuO2puNPJpoUq4AMzC/1R/wivPdB/cKu1g/B1B/FMBlH+cikkQF2Nntt+ v+T2ob2bVsq1HQ8EyMo1FdgdP2IuL4FO6yN2UlXik77ZFXKjEEyB9GvD44NyUUTy MuaqAoSWNmA/jkffjHN2udkkQXScgofm4uhxs2QcIiFGwoMzDZDUFTowQp2SLizJ PEX49Davk/BiMvGl4Rri0+9BgeU+kGkDbb22lJv8k/13rVdQHELFKvLjqALhfwCJ YivfNzc3qnuDkQ1mDIRaKH+GfszNGkQ0Jkt6FLu6k1M1kbebwRhqpAIcKFzjvFWU y0FNsdk7+6btFcCpUIrWrwK8Zafq5PJzNbk28CssdPTZkqWBbAWbGnEBCr/Yi4Wn Q6kCVEpkK7UmIlaCvjIZ =WAYd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sx0m1fmKqE6FxewKL2VArQh2he5bbIcId-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 04:47:57 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A263FDEDB90 for ; 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Sat, 02 Dec 2017 20:47:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:47:55 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <201712030331.vB33VPmC023873@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201712030331.vB33VPmC023873@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 21:47:55 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: k9QtGP8UU5XewTuzLNUW6OJMj8w Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert Cc: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 04:47:57 -0000 On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge > into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very different > it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat > instead. I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need to use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the code. Is ufd working for you? > > > > Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > deprecated, > > but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has been a > > shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for the > purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD drives. > My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the ability > to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some form of > support fd or ufd. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 06:16:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40227DF008B for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:16:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA026D345 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:16:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1F089DF0087; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:16:26 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAA5DF0085 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:16:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2A526D344 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:16:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LNZYeHrdXGvLHLNZZecFnM; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 23:16:19 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=a9pAzQaF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=3Vvk3fhRNu6Lc4U07kcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E919F4C; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 22:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB36GFcv026149; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 22:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB36GFEg026146; Sat, 2 Dec 2017 22:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: Cy Schubert , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sat, 02 Dec 2017 21:47:55 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 22:16:15 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO63YzbRb9lityKgK6usQPw0cFVTwGkVnypGtYsx2Cp0wV2hZYi6XYX9w6JtJSzwfiF2+FCN3I7S7lcVLgtT+b1owvpuz3+PNHQvY+ZJFttmE8no0wte xE6XKjVueYzPytYfpc4B6Md5sEPujOMc04pm4SvM+/ny2wkVu0NpHlXbFZUhCJ3T2ypbmOpaxHHJPdn9ZoGseV2mR9v/8Ztoj6pjYRG0yj46UV95krX0WSkm X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 06:16:26 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert > wrote: > > > bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge > > > into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very different > > it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat > > instead. > > > I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need to > use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the code. > Is ufd working for you? It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it's best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have the inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > > > > Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > deprecated, > > > but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has been a > > > shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > > > The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for the > > purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD drives. > > My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the ability > > to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some form of > > support fd or ufd. > > > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it be in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old floppy disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machine application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives not too many years from now... Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and remove in 13? -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 08:41:38 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF942DF43A4 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1CE70D01 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C97A8DF43A3; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:41:38 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91FBDF43A2 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from mail.turbocat.net (turbocat.net [88.99.82.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7825F70CFF for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from hps2016.home.selasky.org (unknown [62.141.128.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.turbocat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C01F42603A1; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 09:41:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert , Warner Losh Cc: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Hans Petter Selasky Message-ID: <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 09:38:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 08:41:39 -0000 On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message om> > , Warner Losh writes: >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert >> wrote: >> >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge >>> >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very different >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat >>> instead. >> >> >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need to >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the code. >> Is ufd working for you? > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it's > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have the > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > >> >> >>>> >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's >>> deprecated, >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has been a >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. >>> >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for the >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD drives. >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the ability >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some form of >>> support fd or ufd. >> >> >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it be > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old floppy > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machine > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives > not too many years from now... > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and > remove in 13? > > Hi, I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are still important: https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-floppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy people using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows installation to read such disks. Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source code. --HPS --HPS From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 10:28:23 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C84DF6CD3 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:28:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE0473C8D for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:28:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 57641DF6CD2; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:28:23 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FFFDF6CD1 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:28:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C25073C8C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:28:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F86E27398; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:28:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB3ARwUT067963 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:27:58 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB3ARvmZ067962; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:27:57 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Hans Petter Selasky cc: Cy Schubert , Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-reply-to: <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <67960.1512296877.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 Message-ID: <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:28:23 -0000 -------- In message <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org>, Hans Petter= Selasky writes: >I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under = >FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are = >still important: > >https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-= floppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could still read 8" f= loppies. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 11:00:39 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A0BDF74F1 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:00:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4E746BC for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:00:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 612C5DF74F0; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:00:39 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C83DF74EF for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:00:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40F2746BA for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:00:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id g130so10966604wme.0 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:00:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=l0oc2SRd1GC7W/HcT34j2YuLvGh+MCkiLUBZ4BeLZeY=; b=eurnBnkdwug09U9WrvUalmAzMxHH/FD2CxZjo+RlckSp7T6XTH6XCXQ2n1zDG6ZEYz 1x5O0pNw3IzJLJaHcc0JLzrHSMrdvKGZp6UIWQ6ffGht/V7q6zJiL5iKrzl/yN0yetkG AXgxwUPOgwx3wmiatEwxOa37Oqv4FZCp4+SAdWnDYQS8wih2x180+61VqMcpJCYynJ3M 53v2Y3gP7mU7yImSDdxHHwJjYs6pSqS/bk/lakcqoiZbI+YFolxtgK3FCAuwzaAyT2+w ikQIbceMVENuWxnmA73z9g8T3RWQqSJK36FhWZdJxy8X7h4wBTSvqdRo5DVEGR2kPMtA 9htA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=l0oc2SRd1GC7W/HcT34j2YuLvGh+MCkiLUBZ4BeLZeY=; b=MVGiGYapTBzAKvO4VeSFf69g1KmCpvrncspQ4e0nKFkb37oCpOPrZFYv3cwNCPMd9e SM8ATV/zkfrvEfxjD2PZlUFO2qh8nqzbOBMrZvpuIFCTfdYCZAit98g7OtxjyHFJdXya fMvr5RQf4Coz9KPmSuamRN0MjDj7lZq83YaXJLzJWHAwtp4IV6HUleqqwDXA3dq0szw+ Hv9H50v2QvczAHTUgxLg0xwNgsUFPBnT0/0qKTMgCOK1VJp+lEUvE7eES6swwcFvdMJl rbxdDghRFWP80VV3EYmnrJg59tK+MpjPrCWnJacBPnNp4J6rZmsnrZvDnxVLusYyJ1Gk Uy0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLzQj8ZUuqaTES5u5nLyk1qFrX0kjy4jKE8OHaVYrTzO8NrV6Ec bVOgAt69hQgj7TkF4m3CXfo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZ6feNIyfWi7e7OIqmUAhizNwQDJp/e4q9pg4Kz7Yj2v1ZINVaO/xUesatGBimOJ547th9Ycg== X-Received: by 10.28.65.65 with SMTP id o62mr826492wma.112.1512298836165; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernst.home (p578E0E39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [87.142.14.57]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l142sm5475373wmb.43.2017.12.03.03.00.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 03 Dec 2017 03:00:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:00:28 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Cc: Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> Reply-To: gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:00:39 -0000 On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > -------- > In message <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org>, Hans Petter Selasky writes: > > >I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > >FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > >still important: > > > >https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-floppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could > still read 8" floppies. > Really? I still have an 8" drive and floppies laying around. But try to find a controller for a modern computer which doesn't even have one for a 3-1/2" floppy drive.. -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 11:21:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA93CDF7DFD for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C365075197 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C2B9CDF7DFC; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C263CDF7DFB for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A61775196 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13A02738F; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB3BLWUv023286 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:32 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB3BLVnk023285; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:21:31 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: gljennjohn@gmail.com cc: Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-reply-to: <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <23283.1512300091.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:21:31 +0000 Message-ID: <23284.1512300091@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:21:51 -0000 -------- In message <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home>, Gary Jennejohn writes: >On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 >> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could >> still read 8" floppies. >> > >Really? I still have an 8" drive and floppies laying around. But try >to find a controller for a modern computer which doesn't even have one >for a 3-1/2" floppy drive.. I'm not saying it is worth it, there are better data-preservation tools than FreeBSD for this. Check out the "Kryoflux" for instance. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 11:33:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC099DF827E for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:33:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9983A7576F for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:33:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 958B8DF827D; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:33:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953D2DF827C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:33:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from ravenloft.kiev.ua (ravenloft.kiev.ua [94.244.131.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 609C47576E for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:33:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:33:41 +0100 From: Alex Kozlov To: Gary Jennejohn Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:33:50 -0000 On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:00:28PM +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > > > Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could > > still read 8" floppies. Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. *) http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/34_to_50.txt > Really? I still have an 8" drive and floppies laying around. But try > to find a controller for a modern computer which doesn't even have one > for a 3-1/2" floppy drive.. I've tried to transfer 8" floppies a few years ago, it had not worked well. I think it was 9-stable. In the end I bought kryoflux controller. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 11:54:28 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB678DF8A46 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:54:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EB776187 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:54:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id D5FBADF8A45; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:54:28 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E5ADF8A44 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:54:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from ravenloft.kiev.ua (ravenloft.kiev.ua [94.244.131.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9433E76186 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:54:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:54:24 +0100 From: Alex Kozlov To: Cy Schubert Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <20171203115424.GA68886@ravenloft.kiev.ua> References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:54:29 -0000 On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:16:15PM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need to > > use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the code. > > Is ufd working for you? > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it's > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have the > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be > much less messy. I'm open to either option. If you talk about https://people.freebsd.org/~bms/dump/ufdformat/ it's easier to just import it as ufdformat. The code above is very wip though. > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and > remove in 13? As I understand, plan it to remove fdc(4) aka NEC765/i8272 controller device driver and userland utilites that depends on it, usb floppy uses umass UFI which will stay. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 11:56:46 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01823DF8B20 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0627626D for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id DE65BDF8B1E; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE150DF8B1D for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34537626C; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19492738F; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB3BuSiO023406 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:28 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB3BuRxo023405; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:56:27 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Alex Kozlov cc: Gary Jennejohn , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-reply-to: <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <23403.1512302187.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:56:27 +0000 Message-ID: <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 11:56:46 -0000 -------- In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov writes: >On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:00:28PM +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: >> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 >> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >> >> > Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could >> > still read 8" floppies. >Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read >it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. Uhm... no ? Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 12:18:24 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F25DF99AE for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6541A76D9F for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 64787DF99AD; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6415BDF99AC for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from ravenloft.kiev.ua (ravenloft.kiev.ua [94.244.131.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EB0676D9E for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:18:21 +0100 From: Alex Kozlov To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <20171203121821.GA69142@ravenloft.kiev.ua> References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:18:24 -0000 On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov writes: > >On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:00:28PM +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > >> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 > >> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >> > >> > Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could > >> > still read 8" floppies. > >Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read > >it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. > Uhm... no ? > > Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M > and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 16:55:31 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E3ADFFFF0 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:55:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00F47E6AC for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:55:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id CF562DFFFEF; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:55:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF57DFFFEE for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:55:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93BE67E6AB for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:55:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id vB3GtImx041024; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id vB3GtIME041023; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> To: Hans Petter Selasky Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) CC: Cy Schubert , Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:55:32 -0000 > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > In message > om> > > , Warner Losh writes: > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert > >> wrote: > >> > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge > >>> > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very different > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat > >>> instead. > >> > >> > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need to > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the code. > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it's > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have the > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > >> > >> > >>>> > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > >>> deprecated, > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has been a > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > >>> > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for the > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD drives. > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the ability > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some form of > >>> support fd or ufd. > >> > >> > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it be > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old floppy > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machine > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives > > not too many years from now... > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and > > remove in 13? > > > > > > Hi, > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > still important: > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-floppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy people > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > installation to read such disks. > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source code. > > --HPS I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD deal with it using my prefered OS. Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD in the name of some progress. **RANT ON** Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c running? I further know of someone who just told me they completed a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form of support. It is possible that person netbooted an older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types of abilities. **DOUBLE RANT** Having been gone from the project for a long time and looking at it from the outside my observation is that FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few years. Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle comparied to the ocean we shall create. Rather than spend time running around the tree finding rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. ** END RANTS** -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 17:17:44 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB7EE5715F for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326EE7F5E2 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2EF1BE5715D; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8B5E5715C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from muon.bluestop.org (muon.bluestop.org [74.50.51.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0623E7F5E0 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from muon.bluestop.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by muon.bluestop.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BD63B36A; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from muon.bluestop.org ([127.0.0.1]) by muon.bluestop.org (muon.bluestop.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ycDqBoOmi2gE; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2607:fb90:4d1e:e3b8:35bd:eea1:87f9:3993] (unknown [IPv6:2607:fb90:4d1e:e3b8:35bd:eea1:87f9:3993]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.bluestop.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:17:36 +0000 (UTC) Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support From: Rebecca Cran X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15C114) In-Reply-To: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 10:17:34 -0700 Cc: Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:17:44 -0000 On Dec 3, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > deal with it using my prefered OS. It looks like some software licensing still used them as recently as 2014 (I= personally had to use floppy disks at work back in 2009 to transfer our FLE= Xlm licenses): https://docops.ca.com/ca-plex/7-2-1/en/using/how-to-use-group= -model-and-local-model-licensing-in-ca-plex/how-to-make-a-floppy-disk-licens= e-transfer =E2=80=94=20 Rebecca Cran= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 17:27:58 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53664E57633 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:27:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4737FAA2 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:27:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 3E96DE57632; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:27:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E351E57631 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:27:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 198967FAA1 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:27:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C77BB27; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:27:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:27:55 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: bitrot [was: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support] Message-ID: <20171203172755.GA4210@lonesome.com> References: <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:27:58 -0000 On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 08:55:18AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > my observation is that FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly > well and a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > years. Having spent 10+ years triaging PRs I can tell you for certain that there are large parts of the src tree* that no one works on. (For instance, if we use "bin" as a rough proxy for "userland", there are 1668 userland PRs.) I had a breakdown of kern PRs into "subsystems" which I kept going for a few years, but it bitrotted (was GNATS-specific). It never really got any uptake, but I found it educational anyways: https://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/studies/prs/prs_for_all_groups.html For instance, it led me to believe that large chunks of "libraries" and "audio" were not actively maintained. But beside from features missing from the tools, we have a large, open, problem with "someone needs to take ownership of the xyz code". I would be happy to hear constructive ideas. (Readers should be warned that based on past experience I no longer believe that "well, someone should just do that" leads anywhere.) obdisclaimer: I am not trying to discourage the people who currently actively work on maintenance by pointing to the overall numbers; in fact, I appreciate their efforts. I just want to know how we can clone them. mcl * The ports tree does a little better by assigning maintainers. It turns out that most, but not all, of the key components have at least a putative maintainer listed. It's good but insufficient. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 20:05:44 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75C4E65B53 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B296D649C9 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B1AB7E65B52; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0580E65B51 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CD61649C8 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LaWAeiNgQss4TLaWBeihVr; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 13:05:41 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=9sSjY8p1AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=JmL9nBSCWtccBR9YgY4A:9 a=b2yaBeXgq5SMIyIm:21 a=KhdD9OY-Bk8fb47e:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=ub54wNWiXv_DzeFsgEJW:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1A0B1A21; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB3K5aId034726; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB3K5Zki034723; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: Hans Petter Selasky , Cy Schubert , Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 08:55:18 -0800." <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:05:35 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNQMzfmO2SnOpBMNHnIxWF1Po1//8j/X36ltAMKvQ/Z1vVL8tfvdFMbxeyczwAu0aSBgaFYa5nSol5PW6HUPsDl+qoOO0bCdVsUOKW2LZ4Xr4/Bmbr4N qQ6PbzNACD7XQ10RUTyqAYD78PIJbF7JE23EVjf/zxYw8JGWJ+QWLoc5Qe1McOyEjq4bBJiRvITrae7BO9WM23Fdoa2IB/+AsiKDdVa2UjElAv1mh98NDKHo mI8LyAXhUbm9ArsBo8V1esF8TgKG7fSEVdnggLYqE7KRE/GZZLwmPMcBhqDVycZg6usgu0HmexUwBP+uxQLhpQ== X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 20:05:44 -0000 In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. Gri mes" writes: > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > In message l.c > > > om> > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > >> > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge > > >>> > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very differe > nt > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat > > >>> instead. > > >> > > >> > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need t > o > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the co > de. > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it > 's > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have t > he > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>>> > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > >>> deprecated, > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has bee > n a > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > >>> > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for t > he > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD driv > es. > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the abil > ity > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some for > m of > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > >> > > >> > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it b > e > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old flop > py > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machi > ne > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > still important: > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-fl > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy people > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > installation to read such disks. > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source code. > > > > --HPS > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > in the name of some progress. > > **RANT ON** > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > running? > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > of abilities. > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > years. > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > > ** END RANTS** I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) controllers and take a poke at it. USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into the existing fdformat. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 20:21:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EEDE669B7 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:21:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C0F65225 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:21:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id F20E7E669B6; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:21:06 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19E9E669B5 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:21:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com (mail-it0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B251865224 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:21:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x28so8079496ita.0 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:21:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=6kBw200oVVC06pgmlwyk670vezdXwzLcExXxW3n1Zzc=; b=aFH15r7946aOH8/tq0CYPftjOxeq+A07i8aANndPcTuJMnG8eHfCyoRSqDMLWW+f/J mZWafotAcQTYeCBdUk1x6T7bqpE60B1UzFNYr11W4XY3joEiH9J/BOsX6pyYVeQDam7Z +KEiLCJI6KqvhRbDMpI1Y2tP66e6TrORnhTKQZDo5NXRpQ0zaZRY2OGe87qVuPiC1OwP UACeMF6B68V56g5/SG4ZI7PtsdmjklmMAvAlNBqZ5Cz/VPn0+Lwa82rEDFn+3OYv2izk hS0/mEG8DbU4TTgMhKo+WnahTxZszxHXQK9xJSyLeUgH2+/IdTf7Aa00/AzVMGgy/zvo 62aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6kBw200oVVC06pgmlwyk670vezdXwzLcExXxW3n1Zzc=; b=GZgvja3rZpkjElT8WyxZniOEgon2zsQ8b9RDydWVFww2k7ZtNpbq6swjiLO8TwBI0+ +HsTCyoRHtvhhSXy9z1ZJ60quPQ8EHu36sYQpkIDo44OAqjZD6QKiJB1nB+//sQalQOH 0ItSIs+MREc1hgNpq/2S+tGEOok1m1FNgm0CCAqjOcRE0ehofzlA7PhhzSa0jCR07KX3 A6nCI63bz4cUiDuVosbm8dN/jItJhkIWC70mG67Bp6ovT5nTIxx/6Oo81B4mmuc9EfX6 pj2/g14Ah3D2qI8hlfLKi0KJf1D+m1A6iPGRT2vhM7ldM8ZtXbbQS2EeC1WXewis4YBJ NSMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLIeJ7EhfKOFXbyUJ4o7hIrvv3pDCP2icGys4tjDgcg1yHMXw6U GpqGfoSiCmiRS0Cq+nK8WDHNNh1xqFpfBiEK6R5zIA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZC5fgaWb6yPp4EWXIwHUY8fa8deM+H3Z7qiR8DITzY1+8eLstZhMc/lyAn94+dcEAFMiYrsebfRstyZhOhggg= X-Received: by 10.107.52.140 with SMTP id b134mr8999077ioa.291.1512332465849; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:21:05 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: FkTZS0P-6Un1-3wUfT98ZKgn2-k Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 20:21:07 -0000 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney > W. > Gri > mes" writes: > > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > In message 4atSaeT5ahfprbtXHWw@mail.gmai > > l.c > > > > om> > > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert < > Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to > merge > > > >>> > > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very > differe > > nt > > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a > ufdformat > > > >>> instead. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a > need t > > o > > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of > the co > > de. > > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I > said > > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge > them. > > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) > maybe it > > 's > > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we > have t > > he > > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would > be > > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > > >>> deprecated, > > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and > has bee > > n a > > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > > >>> > > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is > for t > > he > > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD > driv > > es. > > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the > abil > > ity > > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep > some for > > m of > > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether > it b > > e > > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for > subsequent > > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought > to my > > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old > flop > > py > > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing > machi > > ne > > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD > drives > > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) > itself > > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB > fd can > > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 > and > > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > > still important: > > > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us- > military-uses-8-inch-fl > > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy > people > > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > > installation to read such disks. > > > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source > code. > > > > > > --HPS > > > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > > in the name of some progress. > > > > **RANT ON** > > > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > > running? > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > > of abilities. > Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > > years. > > > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > The trouble is that the skillsets necessary to fix the rotting code generally only exist in a small number of people, while just about anybody can wield an axe. And lots of people do fix things, but people don't notice so much because (a) they are still working and (b) the fixes tend to be in relatively close proximity to the breakage. It's only when they don't that it becomes an issue. > > ** END RANTS** > > I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old > leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) > controllers and take a poke at it. > > USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet > committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked > USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into > the existing fdformat. I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, but I digress). Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 23:41:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13A3E6C0D6 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:41:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B1E6E810 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:41:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 97FEAE6C0D5; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:41:07 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9799BE6C0D4 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:41:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail108.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail108.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.59]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BB56E80E for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:41:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (c110-21-101-228.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [110.21.101.228]) by mail108.syd.optusnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45DC21A4959; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:40:55 +1100 (AEDT) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:40:54 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: Warner Losh cc: Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Optus-CM-Score: 0 X-Optus-CM-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=KeqiiUQD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:117 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=pKuzUv10z-z3V8Nrh9YA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 23:41:07 -0000 On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert > wrote: > >> In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney >> W. >> Gri >> mes" writes: The inner quoting is more broken than usual (split in the middle of rgrimes' name). >>> **RANT ON** >>> >>> Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so >>> my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, >>> it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers >>> can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 >>> lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass >>> of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c >>> running? Actually 5000+ lines of code: at least: - 2835 lines in dev/fdc - 195 lines in sys/fdcio.h - 335 lines in man4/fdc.4 - 2578 lines in fdcontrol, fdformat, fdread and fdwrite > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It > got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does > not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. > > Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent > with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from > ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. ISADMA worked for writing by fdformat and cp of 1 floppy under -current here. I used a UP i386 system with 1GB. If the bug only affects SMP, and64 or large memory, then it is easy to work around by not using these. Memory above 4GB is especially easy to avoid using a boot option. >> I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old >> leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) >> controllers and take a poke at it. >> >> USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet >> committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked >> USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into >> the existing fdformat. > > I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit > different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 > chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, but > I digress). So usb floppy drives can't even duplicate fdformat's functionality? There is also hard to replace functionality in other utilites. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 3 23:48:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8690EE6C25C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:48:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614326EB04 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:48:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5D64AE6C25B; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:48:07 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF7BE6C256 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:48:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2EF46EB03 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 23:48:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id y82so12453435wmg.1 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 15:48:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=bveKR5WEtjruL/zFDMTYe98JkXNgamMcpf6AuJWqJKs=; b=aNEvbOKyjkPwb629BwboWK9a7ehGG7qzE80Fz9QuwZpe9v8l56t+0GwXIb4Fouf/S0 8F37JNf2yA6JrkoZkAtq6h0MjvP4RkOXh3Il5JRadOLh9Mfn7PSBVchHD0lYvarlYrV3 ZhKprtToaC/HDHrhAaQaVOlCxe/pYOdgbFnCqf3P1rJPPGz7f41lV2znKhAhr9b056PR X2GoZNrBvSnHLAR1kCja2ljzHM6yKkxYnM9N25rybjkAu3cjwMWY1WSqdUIsssxepwsq dAPJU+0u2HsB8rzbeG8fn3QvmUF2/WkCjpu/k+1PwIpmk/m29zAqSsqDIkmhMHPEyBHB ob4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bveKR5WEtjruL/zFDMTYe98JkXNgamMcpf6AuJWqJKs=; b=XbWoMJ4ytxJrGAd9UCWW0+/nINvPWjg88Dae8W0g6UmUQN79PwD1HhUVMp48TZGogM U0cbuMWd3IZsVO7pdUCCbxZ3Ln8iaDXbxOdwxJajX7r5uMCkgqZ5g/2qnMrDmcrsrEBB l3DDO9NHMshXfTrx/uphhttqlqzUcDkCtBTVGiKLciYbWKLG7OrakpxzGEPL5LsSyOW4 dCNuT3JJ8UMX26m3os1HCJnRIbuCj0KheRKIZ3eeoMWe2UOkKxAnOQdLURO3ThCuUcvg ZvLbdVEJGz1gdefl6B5YisrRcu7/eHKaBosgpTVSCDolFVzPzXibu8l6U21hsYpFd/MM mBXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJbyoQBD2pyRqLHNkAzVuWKgcGdeZb22fo4jh2665JWapzYBOVx g1u0CdrSbMoA17VFlxor8VamKKg7nsICFIXWPoRCjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbO8LiXJRXceuuoK00IJv7X4G7qOijr3FUTCsum4+0PqJqZL/O9UN/3Z6XsOCvVu2lICPxBh9P6oibbzFrCmXE= X-Received: by 10.28.136.66 with SMTP id k63mr6153214wmd.50.1512344885014; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 15:48:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.213.131 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 15:48:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Adrian Chadd Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 15:48:03 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mhUsYTGkR5Xae11sFhT_6_-U0pI Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 23:48:07 -0000 [snip snip] If someone wants to support it, and it doesn't make things in other places harder ... why not do it! It at least keeps our APIs honest.. -adrian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:03:45 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B30E6CE8F for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B607B6F67C for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B555BE6CE8E; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E9DE6CE8D for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 760CA6F67B for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id t1so8736025ite.5 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:03:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=PN+wE6Bz4tmhXD3ILk7RfWp0O7NQkD6KBImiXtv+oxc=; b=eeS9DUvfGdOJSWREjPicT8Rcn07w8QEEL3FUHlDWYSPNEC0eZtYXa1jQNj45GUQrVn J+BE4AnmOLOYYK3Fw0O4sToXntqXgQ14Wu91LpTfqyPUUqpimD04BztIgn553nF0+AD1 NcMn/gQxouU7NapWvAitKxTRB8RiJihbiLhdfNGmQb8QYOVIDCEM4OHqF/7H2XQxnHTi GbuXj67w0Oa0ZMLMNAKWNKBCllUnXud0TdKRkz7cgLzKLJdsR4IKBu7YIlEezEvk9Rr1 DzKLiviubzKLZE3UJi72H8cjdnp6PQoE3PClV+yzWDgX4btGE146gIQtAx253xDCWi/T SooQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PN+wE6Bz4tmhXD3ILk7RfWp0O7NQkD6KBImiXtv+oxc=; b=SnRIimdwig5+ShZXLqD8iMF+45/CxQ8KUiYBc2OK+KGHX/PffiXqp+ky1lUu3svs1Z y2hwe+HAN4K5wuIBymd7mkCu2+4r4SRZN5abbQ/TV5gOR0PykbFwpNV/fNRfgDcSWrmI mpjIsN6Ev3chARElPKNd9Qv80tLhhKQ6IG31HL22QIIupUN8TkWRKfQkPnG+rpQOpe4u en2S+BeIdzpnt8owEEkmL8Yqp1hXlUScYc+nmK3oIFH2F9c5gwCr/szy3GqIwKC8QUiR MBxAh2e6Y7R5eAypqpd57Bw88WRn+P9kbUUvq6Py5uAsanWcgYqPvEarOMfib3svTrxG RofA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7Zv1qGP4itwtRFt04CNn9vaTJpW2egx0pC26HnvKIEEDHA7VZ9 /vpMf3SSDdgkkn6ThKfY8AIye1N9RS74OuAEuYpwIsUN X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZhsTF7eiLkOk4zwJaQ+3d5fem36MSEFHe72dveWQJRrkCm8AMgZ96cc5F6r1DloKNxM7LSW3gfJpqzwn/ZHWQ= X-Received: by 10.107.104.18 with SMTP id d18mr20057195ioc.136.1512345824666; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:03:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:03:43 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:03:43 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PVSTpzoXcJZUkKU4OVVhPiRPVOg Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Bruce Evans Cc: Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:03:46 -0000 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert >> wrote: >> >> In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney >>> W. >>> Gri >>> mes" writes: >>> >> > The inner quoting is more broken than usual (split in the middle of > rgrimes' name). The googles are hating me... That is to say gmail does this automatically, and apparently with malice of forethought when rgrimes is involved. **RANT ON** >>>> >>>> Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so >>>> my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, >>>> it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers >>>> can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 >>>> lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass >>>> of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c >>>> running? >>>> >>> > Actually 5000+ lines of code: at least: > - 2835 lines in dev/fdc > - 195 lines in sys/fdcio.h > - 335 lines in man4/fdc.4 > - 2578 lines in fdcontrol, fdformat, fdread and fdwrite > > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It >> got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does >> not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. >> >> Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent >> with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from >> ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. >> > > ISADMA worked for writing by fdformat and cp of 1 floppy under -current > here. > I used a UP i386 system with 1GB. If the bug only affects SMP, and64 or > large memory, then it is easy to work around by not using these. Memory > above 4GB is especially easy to avoid using a boot option. I may have been booting a MP kernel when I tried. I'll have to give it another try. Just to confirm, this was a FreeBSD/i386 kernel, not a FreeBSD/amd64 kernel, right? And was this for a 5.25" drive or 3.5" drive? I know both on the same controller cannot work due to some unfortunate assumptions in the code that looked hard to change... If the code is actually working today, for both read and write, then that changes my attitude, though not by a huge amount... Working code for old devices is almost never removed from the tree unless the device has lost all relevance (a hard case to be made here, since people still use them more often than many of the other things in the tree). I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old >>> leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) >>> controllers and take a poke at it. >>> >>> USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet >>> committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to >>> borked >>> USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into >>> the existing fdformat. >>> >> >> I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit >> different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 >> chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, >> but >> I digress). >> > > So usb floppy drives can't even duplicate fdformat's functionality? > There is also hard to replace functionality in other utilites. The problem is that USB floppy definition is only for 3.5" 1.44MB diskettes. Well, to be honest, that's not entirely true, it also supports 720k DD 3.5" diskette and a total oddball 1.25MB HD diskette (77 tracks, 8 sectors, 1024 bytes per sector). See table 35 in http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devclass_docs/usbmass-ufi10.pdf if you want the details. I was disappointed that 5.25" wasn't supported at all in the specification, or there wasn't some generic way to specify things when I was looking at this for some rx50 work I did earlier this year.. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:11:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D381E6D40E for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:11:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C426F8FB for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id D72C0E6D3F6; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:11:49 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D7DE6D3F5 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x236.google.com (mail-it0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9821C6F8F9 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x236.google.com with SMTP id z6so8766232iti.4 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:11:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=0px8+3Hzpftf+S0fWHUKOB0xZI8o85W4GOnq5YikfB4=; b=ijJWUHp5jkQh2feWhlykn66/qQEvoz3BqPUhqiY+JdRkI7hF+wPcpO6g3NeDSSMPGp 8pJNZFLLrkMUe4IMU55cf+mEc84KbFadblLRdKkisvIktgRL0KuvPDBqZn7Yz9q5cJ6Z DrH4y4DIVPsjwkCuHy3oT617ljmsFNGOpIk5zf9zJFA8L0DsVwjqjRZNeZab6CEXHZhO z/arJzEX8KPIHF4LS5ESpbtpA3jrK4GzEVavvDeZKtctDVKkkc7ehg0qHb9IcWq5aJ72 UnCfC/n+TwWDa5nsbMVp4QBhc4uyTDK8xzcjYWCUgKn2KH4qV/A0bHfS435Vyow7JtP6 yd9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0px8+3Hzpftf+S0fWHUKOB0xZI8o85W4GOnq5YikfB4=; b=D6jGrr5AB3XLpFS4QgzI6v+JwYfYzkaNVKCBDZ1ienda5wqkC9x/pUv6mYaHPaPhWF utRaCZk+w+mPNK+auT5d0ccgHW/kuqHP7A0XNV7h1V9piVrZ7kfamOlEn3qQ0PwGvaId rfVXUlu1y1Zf4goQWasr63OZJ6mecUADhgtMozELrIa+99Dqb+FfUTRHzXKKSrbvvyAu Sqw2S88kMbe/7CDfncKZUmjObIZYckbXin520VWwcsvj6HLWYPDhhAO1dNq81OCJKFwm ZSvTA2XlPOyOktQpXNhWvf4Nrh1rcxqc8N6CSdsj2I8n0fREMRcJQCZiU6t8M010d6Ys ozzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6FohYs9yYyoHtf67QhESy3PMFiHnzaNoOWgz/qvEQgKNpYd3e5 8LiPHCXxXUDWPlUth8WWvn0Tcj96jssy5R1Ki0R6QQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMac4Kj8TYxrTEYrO5ylq7puP4yy6av3Ml2oWfVtvl60/jx8a+W4Dblqh4aZ+SH1Dduq7Wn4ScJPxUybYwZECpo= X-Received: by 10.107.30.81 with SMTP id e78mr20955282ioe.130.1512346308920; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:11:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:11:48 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:11:48 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: BEYdufUYhOEzpwC2Qf3IkfDZYJo Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:11:50 -0000 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > [snip snip] > > If someone wants to support it, and it doesn't make things in other > places harder ... why not do it! > > It at least keeps our APIs honest.. > If it actually works on real hardware, something we have conflicting reports on at the moment... And we seem to be short of the 'someone' that would be able to take up the banner of wanting to support it, having the skill to support it and demonstrating the time is there by fixing bugs... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:23:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25808E6D783 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C5A6FE9A for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id F2109E6D782; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:32 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19D8E6D781 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF42F6FE99 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LeXfejBjsss4TLeXgejIdh; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:23:30 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=JzwRw_2MAAAA:8 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YJl4vTgTWAG8sGD552EA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_bBvcJC8wCc67rcU61zu:22 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 181681F16; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB40NQ57037539; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB40NQkJ037536; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712040023.vB40NQkJ037536@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Bruce Evans cc: Warner Losh , Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Evans of "Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:40:54 +1100." <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:23:26 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGZfBMnBYLtjyfPQpAdf9sakU/tYmFz60vtQzIfWuuWyLFC2Mq8Ws8S7tpzJWcerU0swzdfX+viVo17+6nUWbYwh1I8KSIQoBJHJixqniSjDgLUgZpHz mkNMYH+ROaLZcQFF0K9ksuMno69oc77DdFjO7OgMLS9tR1gtGnn08cqWFF3702cF+PBPYVLtwxBvJ/NuUUBG6lG1BxBhDPGXM2OVj3PsB7YJ4nN9a7RbJ3pP qcbgpXgUzKcq4ea5aPbZsDSlgICz7jTIX88mEPG6aIH7JLYB3uvkgTdt9Pcf7xwhTe7/DfbvJaBtfidv12R5Dar3OA0xhcj8ozXdXzY91pg= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:23:33 -0000 In message <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org>, Bruce Evans writes: > On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert > > wrote: > > > >> In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney > >> W. > >> Gri > >> mes" writes: > > The inner quoting is more broken than usual (split in the middle of > rgrimes' name). > > >>> **RANT ON** > >>> > >>> Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > >>> my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > >>> it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > >>> can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > >>> lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > >>> of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > >>> running? > > Actually 5000+ lines of code: at least: > - 2835 lines in dev/fdc > - 195 lines in sys/fdcio.h > - 335 lines in man4/fdc.4 > - 2578 lines in fdcontrol, fdformat, fdread and fdwrite > > > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It > > got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does > > not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. > > > > Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent > > with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from > > ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. > > ISADMA worked for writing by fdformat and cp of 1 floppy under -current here. > I used a UP i386 system with 1GB. If the bug only affects SMP, and64 or > large memory, then it is easy to work around by not using these. Memory > above 4GB is especially easy to avoid using a boot option. The following on a my amd64 testbed while writing. bob# dmesg g_vfs_done():fd0[READ(offset=184320, length=512)]error = 5 bob# uname -a FreeBSD bob 12.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 12.0-CURRENT #10 r326456M: Sat Dec 2 00:54:10 PST 2017 root@bob:/export/obj/opt/src/svn-current/amd64.amd64/s ys/BREAK amd64 bob# sysctl hw.realmem hw.realmem: 5368709120 bob# You are right Bruce. Using the same machine but with FreeBSD-12 i386 it works perfectly. bob# uname -a FreeBSD bob 12.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 12.0-CURRENT #8 r326456M: Sat Dec 2 07:42:12 PST 2017 root@bob:/export/obj/opt/src/svn-current/i386.i386/sys /BREAK i386 bob# I think the todo here is either a) fix fdc(4) to work on amd64 or b) remove fdc(4) from GENERIC on amd64. > > >> I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old > >> leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) > >> controllers and take a poke at it. > >> > >> USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet > >> committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked > >> USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into > >> the existing fdformat. > > > > I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit > > different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 > > chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, but > > I digress). > > So usb floppy drives can't even duplicate fdformat's functionality? > There is also hard to replace functionality in other utilites. Not at the moment but I plan on committing a USB version of fdformat when it passes review. It works perfectly using a TEAC FD-05PUW 3000. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:23:36 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222C1E6D78F for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C7D6FE9C for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id F0026E6D78E; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF822E6D78D for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B346F6FE9B for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:23:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LeXmejBlOss4TLeXnejIeu; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:23:35 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=9sSjY8p1AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=kDbWf0pqS3ie58lJkwMA:9 a=EDLxO76Kw_1Xc6B9:21 a=wfFjU-reyMphYeIV:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=ub54wNWiXv_DzeFsgEJW:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 021A71F17; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB40NXot037553; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB40NXCU037550; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712040023.vB40NXCU037550@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: Cy Schubert , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 13:21:05 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:23:33 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGfBTDAlmnwVZ4+iptUskuiRQIFjju+eHrt7NO9YYQCZdnxR73DjMazUEHIXq8BNLpyew+VFCeZUwG8HSNHYAHw0CiB5FSXT+ndTRzdz0DzhvZgKdKtD 7iR8Icly2f++iYVdwFiIKb7AlS/u58cIlMsfXAHaZKO/SZmLpG3iQop5CL6qnLgG/sWxSfMVUQJ9H3iPvVrIi8e2RtQj3Nprg2pnGvqbAGr7f1UF8cgIVOKK hFWYRbS9rVP6R7klFx2ZZKGG/rqSOfSQtnxtmUpZsq1JPw8Xo2VwX3soGiB5XVeYLnpTadt77Vi2R59DyvbkCA== X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:23:36 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > --001a113dbf6a68e17b055f7557cd > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert > wrote: > > > In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney > > W. > > Gri > > mes" writes: > > > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > > In message > 4atSaeT5ahfprbtXHWw@mail.gmai > > > l.c > > > > > om> > > > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert < > > Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to > > merge > > > > >>> > > > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very > > differe > > > nt > > > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a > > ufdformat > > > > >>> instead. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a > > need t > > > o > > > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of > > the co > > > de. > > > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I > > said > > > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge > > them. > > > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) > > maybe it > > > 's > > > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we > > have t > > > he > > > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would > > be > > > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > > > >>> deprecated, > > > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and > > has bee > > > n a > > > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is > > for t > > > he > > > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD > > driv > > > es. > > > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the > > abil > > > ity > > > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep > > some for > > > m of > > > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether > > it b > > > e > > > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for > > subsequent > > > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought > > to my > > > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old > > flop > > > py > > > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing > > machi > > > ne > > > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD > > drives > > > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) > > itself > > > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB > > fd can > > > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 > > and > > > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > > > still important: > > > > > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us- > > military-uses-8-inch-fl > > > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy > > people > > > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > > > installation to read such disks. > > > > > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source > > code. > > > > > > > > --HPS > > > > > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > > > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > > > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > > > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > > > > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > > > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > > > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > > > > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > > > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > > > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > > > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > > > in the name of some progress. > > > > > > **RANT ON** > > > > > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > > > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > > > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > > > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > > > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > > > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > > > running? > > > > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It > got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does > not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. > > > > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > > > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > > > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > > > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > > > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > > > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > > > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > > > of abilities. > > > > Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent > with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from > ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. I noticed that. Took a break from outside chores to quickly test: g_vfs_done():fd0[READ(offset=184320, length=512)]error = 5 > > > > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > > > > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > > > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > > > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > > > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > > > years. > > > > > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > > > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > > > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > > > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > > > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > > > > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > > > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > > > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > > > > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > > > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > > > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > > > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > > > > The trouble is that the skillsets necessary to fix the rotting code > generally only exist in a small number of people, while just about anybody > can wield an axe. And, not everybody has the hardware available to test. Sure one can use qemu but it's not the same as real hardware. > > And lots of people do fix things, but people don't notice so much because > (a) they are still working and (b) the fixes tend to be in relatively close > proximity to the breakage. It's only when they don't that it becomes an > issue. Agreed. > > > > > ** END RANTS** > > > > I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old > > leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) > > controllers and take a poke at it. > > > > USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet > > committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked > > USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into > > the existing fdformat. > > > I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit > different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 > chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, but > I digress). I'll try to post it on phab tonight. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:35:19 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30B9E6E03D for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:35:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901FD707C5 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:35:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8F44EE6E03C; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:35:19 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE5AE6E03B for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:35:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50FF7707C4; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:35:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id Lej6ejE33ss4TLej8ejKJ0; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:35:18 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=_eLWq2XJHCfvB1hGSxwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B0B21F5B; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB40ZFYU037677; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:35:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB40ZFjx037674; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:35:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712040035.vB40ZFjx037674@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: Adrian Chadd , Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:11:48 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:35:15 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHBD5ZWEdMVsazK989udysqm0arGpAMqALYOMZZqeTgLNUcgOAgp+CQ2pEwykRaHBE5HE+FffGmOocgH221jzTJSm0dip6JhV7fNfo/UAJQv/3FZT0JG nvn6th5BgTlWuK6SpneHB2TboQPdK5uI770o0bvU0is7CiCHX6DhIb1jWZSLiP3VDPTBo/SqSkYypR514ztCpOwcUvR7TZOQRBFTPIka3dIcDAlBRPq9o/0u 5OMOoZj/goI2TGkGqrep7+9YfjN0yZaD+LLTT64bGHKDP4dZrvFNjRS3gshJkTDJPLQLHfL0fhAikpoobulCEpaK3DQ0LdFzS9b3mbuz4X8= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:35:19 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > --001a11418b8c855b04055f789009 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > [snip snip] > > > > If someone wants to support it, and it doesn't make things in other > > places harder ... why not do it! > > > > It at least keeps our APIs honest.. > > > > If it actually works on real hardware, something we have conflicting > reports on at the moment... > > And we seem to be short of the 'someone' that would be able to take up the > banner of wanting to support it, having the skill to support it and > demonstrating the time is there by fixing bugs... Bruce was partially right. It does work on i386. My test on an i386 MP kernel worked. Just a guess, as I haven't really looked at it, I'm willing to bet the controller expects to use addresses below 4 GB. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:50:15 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E71E6E944 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E60710F1 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6661BE6E943; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:50:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E1AE6E942 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A349710F0; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:50:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id vB40o9uJ042852; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id vB40o9Zr042851; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201712040050.vB40o9Zr042851@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:50:09 -0800 (PST) CC: Adrian Chadd , Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Eitan Adler X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:50:15 -0000 [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > [snip snip] > > > > If someone wants to support it, and it doesn't make things in other > > places harder ... why not do it! > > > > It at least keeps our APIs honest.. > > > > If it actually works on real hardware, something we have conflicting > reports on at the moment... I have the hardware, it may take me 48 hours to get a machine set up and running, but I shall at least do that much. I know I have plenty of 1.44MB drives, the 5.25 drives are gona be in my junk storage and may need some work to rescue. I have just gone and touched 2 P4 motherboards with floppy controllers, and 2 complete machines that should be P4 or similiar AMD. I think I can net boot my data recovery/forensics system, which has floppy and net booted I can run 10/11 or 12 i386 and amd on it. So basically I should be able to get us some additional data points in short order. > And we seem to be short of the 'someone' that would be able to take up the > banner of wanting to support it, having the skill to support it and > demonstrating the time is there by fixing bugs... That is true. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:56:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963CEE6EB4A for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC047143C for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 69EA3E6EB49; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:56:06 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697C0E6EB48 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com (mail-it0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29D2D7143A for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id b5so8909918itc.3 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:56:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=bzxkAkeWuZK3UozVmQ9XSlPzr3lMTBvL5Z1pr0pY4go=; b=vU+6IdvxpuSJfZSg5SSNUaMNWynAaExDXhuLqiyg5hVwIemH0hXOxBILaSJy0iHSGU Ea+ZtfARu+cXxgs941HQnNs4mD+PXqx1605mq+L73NZE2zSmtcq/Eef8q07vvpMAZBOb Gw+Di9mktjKRgfHNG8wo1IsxH7knfWB+3y4DqlVyeryP83drMxRSHuHKaTRh7rz+eCTC RAevaKOV9dMmMLXssBS+FJNoi6pDLT2Ug1/SidjFAKFae699xDqThRb7cFXunbBsrCBW s72QLjXxnUsNRuoweOH0t6O1wBIN1sQZNgohayF2N+bwPJ791D1WUm4dfjefvbdx9H9s jrdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bzxkAkeWuZK3UozVmQ9XSlPzr3lMTBvL5Z1pr0pY4go=; b=nEv7H+heMRgCLPXQiCjc6yIJHLkqbZ2UvT10+6PG64xRAzVh147/RNVe8IfPeQUed+ xP/EkiE2iuZUHWXiENNIp1sRJOJvSt6CeD/AGzz3O8CUqARnTHw73m5f1VxaF2q0RWHV by0+RlFdKX32CxGQjPtBWj0P3gxWp7nKzfCxevJPe8fwhqBlI6rTX2W3lU2aPpYNFiH7 IxMU6ueP3jCmw8eW2rxe/jEhFRGTRBa7EJPjLNTIjE9WlnrjVHw6ktYPYplt2MunoYEi ufDmnDwdclAalywQdAcjEgPD22/A+xJ0K1hRiTzNAwYV61LPZ+qmOOurvHGzH1dU3/js hOUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLLpFEjcJn/2o+lq+v52P5Am/7FsrTuBDiksUHVEQG+qa5Hfj+x USMaFfj2qA4mWd389VuDo4fS+WspT807JGZP9AXfjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYgoO1RFnA5bgXDr/eL00dH+P5tg7xrqfnxT3WzojTDdJgTHC/+tTsiQ9ifhJqxr0U0XFJROh6mRuNls2Gjq8g= X-Received: by 10.36.147.193 with SMTP id y184mr2432819itd.64.1512348965423; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:56:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <201712040035.vB40ZFjx037674@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201712040035.vB40ZFjx037674@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:56:04 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3waXX83Mhnw2QRWYU4vvlv9pxUI Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert Cc: Adrian Chadd , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:56:06 -0000 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message tVsHXqgqaNihuQ@mail.gmail.c > om> > , Warner Losh writes: > > --001a11418b8c855b04055f789009 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > > > [snip snip] > > > > > > If someone wants to support it, and it doesn't make things in other > > > places harder ... why not do it! > > > > > > It at least keeps our APIs honest.. > > > > > > > If it actually works on real hardware, something we have conflicting > > reports on at the moment... > > > > And we seem to be short of the 'someone' that would be able to take up > the > > banner of wanting to support it, having the skill to support it and > > demonstrating the time is there by fixing bugs... > > Bruce was partially right. It does work on i386. My test on an i386 MP > kernel worked. > > Just a guess, as I haven't really looked at it, I'm willing to bet the > controller expects to use addresses below 4 GB. The Floppy controller doesn't grok anything about addresses. The ISA DMA chip (8237A) doesn't grok anything about 16MB. The floppy is hard wired to channel 2 of the DMA controller and can only do 8-bit transfers. And it's slow (maybe 400kB/s). It's so limited that it spawned creation of VLB and then PCI. One cause of problems is that fdc passes the raw address of the BIO that generated the I/O down to isa_dma. Once there, there's a range check to make sure that it's a cool address, and if not it bounces it into dma_bouncebuf[] which is contig malloc'd early in an attempt to get that elusive below 16MB memory (it panics it if can't get it). There was talk about tweaks to the isa_dma interface to allow drivers to specify the memory to use and using a hard-coded 64k array in the floppy driver to ensure it is below 16MB (with linker script hacks, if necessary). That talk never went anywhere, though. Also, if contigmalloc is broken such that it no longer really honors the constraints in the arguments, the isa_dma code has no checks for that either location or aligment (both of which would be fatal to proper floppy operation). This would explain why it works for bde and not for me or others I've chatted with about the deal. Adding sanity checks here would be a good first start, I think, to making things less insane. An even better start would be to just pre-allocate DMA channel 2 with 64k, aligned 64k in isa_dma and hack the code to use this. The other channels... No One will ever use them anymore... Just a thought... Memory is no longer so dear that this would be an issue. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 01:01:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CD1E6F034 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31EC071A70 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 3144AE6F030; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:01:48 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EB5E6F02E for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E52F071A6E for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:01:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id d137so2785531itc.2 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:01:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=OImH6VXrsTBWAsexmi246zF6okHSNcKGTgPxrJQMl9w=; b=oJV123LL0hbK6yIBave82+jxZ7mS2C3wwoH+WyAvIgo+kKIIdh7M5jvRuWTuxH5nYl 8Rxv+X8k2/S7dLEvfgx7NcQIpupQaoqNkpLAk9/WzfeeWpuNQ5tMXy4Q/PEHUAUY7/SB Mri1xFU50dcQgwFkxy1L+FFLWpcVRqGwB/Ri5gAV7HTyOY9y7FUss7epVyRLQLCHvgZ7 2VTlKwFc7OLNZZXdeCd5UM46T4+d8pHNKpMydyCtaiTkozkioUz6H9YXg5In+sutXG5d eYRZHMhLYux97T6Zzm0dGNOs1jkYkeFnU4bZoNavZB6pie468V5SbdG9cJGjnYaRfc+Q GmNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OImH6VXrsTBWAsexmi246zF6okHSNcKGTgPxrJQMl9w=; b=QCYVdd13GYg7cwYzt/GEyV1MIS9WG6evSsc2AamEbTy8GVc7J01Y/iGojhQiu00z9d 9JbYKGLlKnNBTrSN9kT0+ZyQIjEFcIfMieFwIKdD1ww73M1Tj9faFA4dTfNuJ4Ej9Djv BYGIiKAxjNUijd9fe9HxBAq7OoTCmD9i7cDZXjd9J8JKnl8zSVjFy7iUm2yKUv9YHR/4 vPwBXcD0yP9bpxxhhh5kzmBQPLl7cT0k3tljwTi1GK6JST+2sPlmkfQeAY3IfLyJbrC6 ZKNhprFvV1L0ND7w8ExUu9+TsEfc2zLFuMP3ZgrwQ4//0vp+ksvqUtn9/eWIuzAoxMDk 5HBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIsGzfxE8ttOb6mbU61EuSPcexdVaB9LMa3ifG0AOj/2Jxtxe+9 lg929VUbCCrp68zgMC0Ourwm1alv1Wx/d6Zr8Htygw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZi37Cq79tpEQl4kXnrwUHJ9gkl4SGMq5X77bem3a9GM4JTBBP1pI52RNfsQvkmt0RuxqcPFihiVXAoJ0Fpy2w= X-Received: by 10.36.131.200 with SMTP id d191mr11327968ite.97.1512349307247; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:01:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:01:46 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <201712040050.vB40o9Zr042851@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <201712040050.vB40o9Zr042851@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 18:01:46 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Bih9v3NPQYArlKZX-XMqiMWFJd0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Adrian Chadd , Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 01:01:48 -0000 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > I think I can net boot my data recovery/forensics system, which > has floppy and net booted I can run 10/11 or 12 i386 and amd on it. > > So basically I should be able to get us some additional data points > in short order. True. We should add additional sanity / hacks to isa_dma as well. It may be that some folks it works for, and some it fails for due to bugs in contigmalloc that have gone undetected, or at least uncorrected. I have an older DELL system that I may bring up, if there's enough memory in it to run -current. It's the least obnoxious of the old hardware that I have knocking around. But it may be gated by finding working PATA disks and/or that PATA <-> SD adapter I have somewhere... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 01:14:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1660E6F725 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D88A72053 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7A1C7E6F724; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:14:06 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C4EE6F723 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E9AD72051; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LfKdejLrfss4TLfKeejPvy; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 18:14:05 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=1QRE_QkE_MD_IlWjurcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 741F11FED; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB41E3dI037970; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB41E2pI037967; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712040114.vB41E2pI037967@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Adrian Chadd , Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 18:01:46 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:14:02 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO8jlqJ/BqgpqW/1++06Sqhzm4ABXzGflqRrMxND/LgLoWWL7csGwCnGnJY9Y53EveAq9gQIJuwNHQmsW05/6Glx4W1cy0x8xpA6oVRhItfkWA1JoY0D mbqc9lANrFZbNhwwE1uqoJrRNLUMiNvGz6LWVs+w5u4Ldp0Dv7KhK1Joh/u5E3sl5H+iPIY6HZN0Ymr81LEmHedF4wqgCjfSSqnjEPPkZUj78HNmoO4epypj M+4YwgBll2L2FuSIKXrdAMQDAv5A3FzIzWMw5EILM91OmQwpSHFSUXkiL1Pml+UKuLIKVALUQL4SnBjvnGFCAc0qIlEi6aXfurr2n8T79o8= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 01:14:06 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > --94eb2c11880a3c31df055f794380 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > I think I can net boot my data recovery/forensics system, which > > has floppy and net booted I can run 10/11 or 12 i386 and amd on it. > > > > So basically I should be able to get us some additional data points > > in short order. > > > True. We should add additional sanity / hacks to isa_dma as well. It may be > that some folks it works for, and some it fails for due to bugs in > contigmalloc that have gone undetected, or at least uncorrected. > > I have an older DELL system that I may bring up, if there's enough memory > in it to run -current. It's the least obnoxious of the old hardware that I > have knocking around. But it may be gated by finding working PATA disks > and/or that PATA <-> SD adapter I have somewhere... And of course my sandbox which has everything from 10 through 12, i386 and amd64 installed. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 01:31:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165F3DB92BA for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:31:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9F272CDD for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:31:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EDD11DB92B8; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:31:49 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED694DB92B6 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:31:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail106.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail106.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961E172CDC for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:31:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (c110-21-101-228.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [110.21.101.228]) by mail106.syd.optusnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C8E93CCB58; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:31:44 +1100 (AEDT) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:31:43 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: Warner Losh cc: Bruce Evans , Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20171204115511.N1389@besplex.bde.org> References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Optus-CM-Score: 0 X-Optus-CM-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=bc8baKHB c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:117 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=PO7r1zJSAAAA:8 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=G0XHSz-fAAAA:8 a=sNZCRzj2iv3kknsgWGoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=9GzJQMQvVMogKS571uVa:22 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 01:31:50 -0000 On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: > >> On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert >>> wrote: >>> >>> In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney >>>> W. >>>> Gri >>>> mes" writes: >>>> >>> >> The inner quoting is more broken than usual (split in the middle of >> rgrimes' name). > > The googles are hating me... That is to say gmail does this automatically, > and apparently with malice of forethought when rgrimes is involved. :-) >> ... >> The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It >>> got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does >>> not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. >>> >>> Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent >>> with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from >>> ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. >> >> ISADMA worked for writing by fdformat and cp of 1 floppy under -current >> here. >> I used a UP i386 system with 1GB. If the bug only affects SMP, and64 or >> large memory, then it is easy to work around by not using these. Memory >> above 4GB is especially easy to avoid using a boot option. > > I may have been booting a MP kernel when I tried. I'll have to give it > another try. Just to confirm, this was a FreeBSD/i386 kernel, not a > FreeBSD/amd64 kernel, right? And was this for a 5.25" drive or 3.5" drive? > I know both on the same controller cannot work due to some unfortunate > assumptions in the code that looked hard to change... Yes, it was i386. In fact, I have no amd64 system that supports fd drives, so I can't test this. Cy just tested it and found amd64 failing and i386 working. It was for a 3.5" drive. I can almost test the combination. I have a system for debugging/keeping old hardware with a 3.5" drive and an 5.25" drive. Unfortunately, the 5.25" drive broke 16-17 years ago (it is detected by has seek problems after breaking it doing too many seeks trying to recover from i/o errors for attempted recovery of disks 16-17 years ago). > If the code is actually working today, for both read and write, then that > changes my attitude, though not by a huge amount... Working code for old > devices is almost never removed from the tree unless the device has lost > all relevance (a hard case to be made here, since people still use them > more often than many of the other things in the tree). Lots of drivers probably have broken DMA or just broken addressing at the 4GB boundary, but are still in the tree and work perfectly on i386 without PAE or amd64 with reduced memory, but are less useful than the fd driver since they have backwards-compatible replacements for both hardware and software. There is no need to handle old media for devices like NICs, but backwards compatibility requires supporting lower speeds. > ... >> So usb floppy drives can't even duplicate fdformat's functionality? >> There is also hard to replace functionality in other utilites. > > The problem is that USB floppy definition is only for 3.5" 1.44MB > diskettes. Well, to be honest, that's not entirely true, it also supports > 720k DD 3.5" diskette and a total oddball 1.25MB HD diskette (77 tracks, 8 > sectors, 1024 bytes per sector). See table 35 in > http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devclass_docs/usbmass-ufi10.pdf if you > want the details. I was disappointed that 5.25" wasn't supported at all in > the specification, or there wasn't some generic way to specify things when > I was looking at this for some rx50 work I did earlier this year.. I thought that you meant funky formatting used by some copy protection schemes. I have a (working) WDC fd controller and double density drives on a 35-year old system that can do slightly more/different formatting than the NEC controller, but no disks with copy protection except the natural protection of obscure formats. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 01:33:52 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA0FDB93F5 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:33:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C0472F70 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:33:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2717ADB93F4; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:33:52 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B43DB93F1 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:33:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD18E72F6F for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:33:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 64so11549077wme.3 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:33:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=35PJeNeab6fLMxUAkI63lpwtVL1ag+qfraYKqww83To=; b=RtXyivlcvBvYH0NJbcbCN2ulMtgrg5M3MbRYfAGv8XPIhdqqyjP4s9efCFOaHSeSjQ AWjiZrvl3l/rjTXw7Ylfg27D33CnnifW2rmIhbeiaq8uzZoaemAvqGav67/rGabyGtp5 ot4s5QiEUlkJ1J4H57Hxvt+rnabGukZ+yPBmqwXC+Ibmscyut8TOI+DGRMJwdjjKpvKN 78UiWwtOgWlBgMBCBoYXZwRWdpa3WFLMuH9bp7ASQxUGQxU+pAzKW2BWskAdMCmJukkx VANIyzd0Ed0qBf0qBzW6KZtPY3923OCFH1Awh5DaxUdRlrBO3GXlxJFDIMC7vCiGSq0t Fn6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=35PJeNeab6fLMxUAkI63lpwtVL1ag+qfraYKqww83To=; b=ahRMl15V/TvltlgWc7D9lPuQwUMWXBez8HkelTX/RT1gFPA7aJLTqO2f7yriQPxijy SaiYxEMS3PSqAMeWjYGEVM1coZRkoZ9tUq5iDeE+6vK8Q9+OVqnYGJeAFNWyb8QLuEBD kaRAFUoWJqNfxN9ip4ViaSNz2duwx99wDOr5HXVVbabhCzV/vUN+D6KXzd/oCBoXDUbl 7+4IbPgcdDQmb0TdiumGCTwYmvOtQYcusG0HiJEzsN2DaRyoeNfZtwFHSNIyt/Ahvfrx k4Xil9rqWw8wX0hKPcsR44t7dCsvVmbsFsOtPtlNBfI3+deg7FQoQy5syq5poqEjH2Um /vhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKhf0on3kbeKb9QT/8s8Ra6MIURBEUAkREcMnTGBHMGk2vwlcrA lkFnRJGae2fiYpf7IFXMyfRTIgs9Vs/elG3Mxoo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMaKjbBAhCZS4dRuxO2XGjmZ54IItYToAgLDi6gkB78IoxykrhbArijMBdCUHhh894qDlCjPfLsdDQ9uhZmhYEc= X-Received: by 10.28.136.66 with SMTP id k63mr6268086wmd.50.1512351230143; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 17:33:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.213.131 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:33:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201712040035.vB40ZFjx037674@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Adrian Chadd Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:33:48 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: D4ajxRyxvV9VT-Daj4nY32nlELM Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Warner Losh Cc: Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Eitan Adler Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 01:33:52 -0000 Hi, Wait, why's it not using bounce buffers? And hm, are we really running out of the 16MB lower memory for doing that bouncing? -adrian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 09:26:29 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FF3DF574B for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 09:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B687F2CC for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 09:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 54317DF5749; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 09:26:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D3FDF5748 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 09:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from smtp.digiware.nl (smtp.digiware.nl [IPv6:2001:4cb8:90:ffff::3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B38F7F2CB; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 09:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from router.digiware.nl (localhost.digiware.nl [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FEB2E663; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:26:18 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at digiware.com Received: from smtp.digiware.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by router.digiware.nl (router.digiware.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vM5kwy9DYMnD; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:26:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.11.152] (unknown [192.168.11.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 833FC2E662; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:26:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Alex Kozlov , Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@freebsd.org References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203121821.GA69142@ravenloft.kiev.ua> From: Willem Jan Withagen Message-ID: <387b63e9-f97c-fa2d-192d-8e36cb2dbcba@digiware.nl> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:26:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171203121821.GA69142@ravenloft.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 09:26:29 -0000 On 03/12/2017 13:18, Alex Kozlov wrote: > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> -------- >> In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov writes: >>> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:00:28PM +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: >>>> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 >>>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could >>>>> still read 8" floppies. >>> Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read >>> it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. >> Uhm... no ? >> >> Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M >> and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. > I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and > Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. Never too late to learn.... I still think I have my (from 1982) 8" disks around with a ported CP/M system to a TRS-80 like system... But ever since the Intel ASM/CPM developement stack died on the University they have been lying round for nostalgic reasons. And the hardware got dumped with the last move about 12 years ago. But it never ever occured to me that FreeBSD would be able to do 8", if alone for the controller. But now I learn that it could have worked... Cool :) --WjW From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 10:38:49 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F490DF7BBD for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:38:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7152B01 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:38:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 38E78DF7BBC; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:38:49 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38933DF7BBB for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:38:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Received: from ravenloft.kiev.ua (ravenloft.kiev.ua [94.244.131.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 023012AFE for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:38:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kozlov@ravenloft.kiev.ua) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:38:44 +0100 From: Alex Kozlov To: Willem Jan Withagen Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <20171204103844.GA23257@ravenloft.kiev.ua> References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203121821.GA69142@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <387b63e9-f97c-fa2d-192d-8e36cb2dbcba@digiware.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <387b63e9-f97c-fa2d-192d-8e36cb2dbcba@digiware.nl> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:38:49 -0000 On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:26:17AM +0100, Willem Jan Withagen wrote: > On 03/12/2017 13:18, Alex Kozlov wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov writes: > >>>> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 > >>>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could > >>>>> still read 8" floppies. > >>> Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read > >>> it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. > >> Uhm... no ? > >> > >> Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M > >> and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. > > I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and > > Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. > Never too late to learn.... > > I still think I have my (from 1982) 8" disks around with a ported CP/M > system to a TRS-80 like system... But ever since the Intel ASM/CPM > developement stack died on the University they have been lying round for > nostalgic reasons. And the hardware got dumped with the last move about > 12 years ago. > > But it never ever occured to me that FreeBSD would be able to do 8", if > alone for the controller. But now I learn that it could have worked... > Cool :) Theoretically, it should work. In practice, as bde@ suggested, you may need to use UP i386 kernel and perhaps downgrade to earlier version of FreeBSD. Also you need to somehow acquire 34-to-50 cable or adaptor*. I made mine, so perhaps that why I failed :) You don't need to worry about tg43 signal if you don't plan to write on these floppies. In the end, after burning weekend on this little project, I realized that I risk to burn much more time, so I just ordered kryoflux. *) something like this http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/h/c8ssc.jpg -- Alex From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 10:42:49 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9A0DF7F23 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C762FD6 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C3BB6DF7F22; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:49 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C85DF7F21 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67E382FD5; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [192.168.0.221] ([80.71.24.25]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id vB4AgaBH083073; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:36 GMT (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support From: Bob Bishop In-Reply-To: <387b63e9-f97c-fa2d-192d-8e36cb2dbcba@digiware.nl> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:42:34 +0000 Cc: Alex Kozlov , Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6BB03804-172F-40C0-97A9-8360971B3364@gid.co.uk> References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203121821.GA69142@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <387b63e9-f97c-fa2d-192d-8e36cb2dbcba@digiware.nl> To: Willem Jan Withagen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:42:49 -0000 Hi, > On 4 Dec 2017, at 09:26, Willem Jan Withagen wrote: >=20 > On 03/12/2017 13:18, Alex Kozlov wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> -------- >>> In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov = writes: >>>> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:00:28PM +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: >>>>> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 >>>>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could >>>>>> still read 8" floppies. >>>> Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read >>>> it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. >>> Uhm... no ? >>>=20 >>> Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M >>> and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. >> I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and >> Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. >=20 > Never too late to learn.... >=20 > I still think I have my (from 1982) 8" disks around with a ported CP/M = system to a TRS-80 like system... But ever since the Intel ASM/CPM = developement stack died on the University they have been lying round for = nostalgic reasons. And the hardware got dumped with the last move about = 12 years ago. >=20 > But it never ever occured to me that FreeBSD would be able to do 8", = if alone for the controller. But now I learn that it could have = worked... > Cool :) IIRC (it has been a while), the interfaces (h/w and protocol) to 8=E2=80=9D= drives varied somewhat by manufacturer. And yes, I do have at least one = drive, blank media and an alignment disk in the archive. > --WjW > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 -- Bob Bishop rb@gid.co.uk From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 11:34:12 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB575DF959F for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC1064612 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id BC1A3DF959E; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:34:12 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAF5DF959D for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from smtp.digiware.nl (smtp.digiware.nl [IPv6:2001:4cb8:90:ffff::3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8281B64611; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from router.digiware.nl (localhost.digiware.nl [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E6B2EE2E; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:34:08 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at digiware.com Received: from smtp.digiware.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by router.digiware.nl (router.digiware.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MksIJ6hRWTCS; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:34:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.101.70] (vpn.ecoracks.nl [176.74.240.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95F332EE2C; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:34:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Alex Kozlov Cc: arch@freebsd.org References: <201712030616.vB36GFEg026146@slippy.cwsent.com> <43746890-e60a-5c8f-4c77-bbfe9a5a6aa9@selasky.org> <67961.1512296877@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203120028.32f84314@ernst.home> <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <23404.1512302187@critter.freebsd.dk> <20171203121821.GA69142@ravenloft.kiev.ua> <387b63e9-f97c-fa2d-192d-8e36cb2dbcba@digiware.nl> <20171204103844.GA23257@ravenloft.kiev.ua> From: Willem Jan Withagen Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:34:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171204103844.GA23257@ravenloft.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: nl Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 11:34:13 -0000 On 4-12-2017 11:38, Alex Kozlov wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:26:17AM +0100, Willem Jan Withagen wrote: >> On 03/12/2017 13:18, Alex Kozlov wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov writes: >>>>>> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 >>>>>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could >>>>>>> still read 8" floppies. >>>>> Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read >>>>> it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. >>>> Uhm... no ? >>>> >>>> Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M >>>> and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. >>> I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and >>> Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. >> Never too late to learn.... >> >> I still think I have my (from 1982) 8" disks around with a ported CP/M >> system to a TRS-80 like system... But ever since the Intel ASM/CPM >> developement stack died on the University they have been lying round for >> nostalgic reasons. And the hardware got dumped with the last move about >> 12 years ago. >> >> But it never ever occured to me that FreeBSD would be able to do 8", if >> alone for the controller. But now I learn that it could have worked... >> Cool :) > Theoretically, it should work. In practice, as bde@ suggested, you may need > to use UP i386 kernel and perhaps downgrade to earlier version of FreeBSD. > Also you need to somehow acquire 34-to-50 cable or adaptor*. I made mine, > so perhaps that why I failed :) > You don't need to worry about tg43 signal if you don't plan to write on these > floppies. > > In the end, after burning weekend on this little project, I realized that I > risk to burn much more time, so I just ordered kryoflux. > > *) something like this http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/h/c8ssc.jpg Like I said. I'm keeping mine for nostalgic reason.... Don't have the drive any longer. Dare I say that I even have hard sectored 8" disks, when the start of block is actually indicated by a series of punched holes 8-) --WjW From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 18:07:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D56AE5FE37 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:07:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BD173210 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:07:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6CDFAE5FE36; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:07:37 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7B1E5FE35 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:07:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38E5F7320F; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:07:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id Lv9KemT6xss4TLv9MelPS2; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 11:07:29 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=mH2bB1jxAAAA:8 a=DJ-FkKROxfbsAjdGKuMA:9 a=Y7Q_jkHyq4HCot_h:21 a=vxSgLMrvRCVp5PfU:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=4gWVEG2wCdxAuQVAYysA:9 a=3t5jozCfsC1jeaQp:21 a=kfSoGp-EmOxfYJAQ:21 a=jCkcd598ec6DoYSC:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=YVHI_lNIZdsyEBdj4OGd:22 Received: from [25.81.45.55] (S0106d4ca6d8943b0.gv.shawcable.net [24.68.134.59]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3480D2BA; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:07:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:07:28 -0800 To: Alex Kozlov , Willem Jan Withagen CC: "arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20171204180725.3480D2BA@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDexEGBFASo/QSPX6HnHNY0+McbGvpkBvQpQ3uUMVGIFjFA8ENtuMrwW3YuayBm/Qx6DGOwH+V/c31vM7tZRL7EuAmeBnVAGAieFmHkF78RWgtScdjbQ YKJofdTeQ3BnQxx5adfdrceAebluZOs3u+2Uz2s3mB2KW47dadCog99OMsOYhrHH+UmqPYMRZ5VFB3OTfmfgJo6LW+5VCu6nknr6bS34kAOP39lnMcehC8oG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 18:07:37 -0000 My test showed that MP i386 works as well. Amd64 is broken. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. This old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Alex Kozlov Sent: 04/12/2017 02:45 To: Willem Jan Withagen Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:26:17AM +0100, Willem Jan Withagen wrote: > On 03/12/2017 13:18, Alex Kozlov wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov wri= tes: > >>>> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 > >>>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could > >>>>> still read 8" floppies. > >>> Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read > >>> it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. > >> Uhm... no ? > >> > >> Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M > >> and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. > > I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and > > Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. > Never too late to learn.... > > I still think I have my (from 1982) 8" disks around with a ported CP/M=20 > system to a TRS-80 like system... But ever since the Intel ASM/CPM=20 > developement stack died on the University they have been lying round for > nostalgic reasons. And the hardware got dumped with the last move about > 12 years ago. > > But it never ever occured to me that FreeBSD would be able to do 8", if > alone for the controller. But now I learn that it could have worked... > Cool :) Theoretically, it should work. In practice, as bde@ suggested, you may need to use UP i386 kernel and perhaps downgrade to earlier version of FreeBSD. Also you need to somehow acquire 34-to-50 cable or adaptor*. I made mine, so perhaps that why I failed :) You don't need to worry about tg43 signal if you don't plan to write on the= se floppies. In the end, after burning weekend on this little project, I realized that I risk to burn much more time, so I just ordered kryoflux. *) something like this http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/h/c8ssc.= jpg --=20 Alex _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 18:11:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EDFE5FF74 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:11:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8420734FF for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:11:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id D4924E5FF73; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:11:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D433CE5FF72 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:11:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 994F1734FE for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:11:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id f143so8823631itb.0 for ; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:11:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=4GbV2bfIjPgOgLgq63ZlMDlVgKb4uTpHezZPve7Kyjo=; b=WgxiNs9h48wiFrdCJl0rLsurI/beVjqk+UwjLcRFB7MxFZqeLK3cAK6AP+C+TkyCiL mroPpfXF4SH+0WOI1qcDqRuNE6VG41bv+1wFHq0hw9S8Myd5FgW1FGQHNzVekS6aOzDj DPFKN55VR2yxQssGKyO/Dnx4hjQ+gZF8U9vmxiRlkAH9jTOENnXR69NsCjupuVXzteEo BXse8nbcI/rBAyqzWZviz2Z1Be4G1es3C+XPnwWeWkWpa87mCf3gj0iccj8605oveuhO MbW2U3YdonG7t08mXDQM3/JgYty80CIYWgEziYdjyYY9KuUSw6ohEMK5+KNEqy18WI2y g0xQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4GbV2bfIjPgOgLgq63ZlMDlVgKb4uTpHezZPve7Kyjo=; b=ddqBrJudiHf3w77UoFs/kgbXm0gLk4bc4hXOn8+Gfb9auCWZ5Qz98Ti178EyhKr2QV wUOKK5ynLF7X5XbQw9ZgQabQXxrHybcQgAYMUQBbjqJPvWG+lsBfXn7hHUXrutO2fvCT sYowdnWny9fuw+Bl6WeNC3hmP9whITkuYWnYR03mtdz+MON74i5cU0WFkK9o4Ld5mf1Y lSYn3lzx72rLY515TuLVhOmZ9LWRCXrZD3rNL/zWswd4SaTSPWtx2i6RJ9HKuJK6JOAG qzs9YtTEiuHBSyTDH1X3pgRGaZJSnru1vCy+XSFvk9bL9rAhS+MhM9aMUBDJXkdC+Lfw w4DQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6o57Nl8I0z4Z8TtIZcd5Rflb+74vzKpNrAPL70p3YG2oIMkMUY kY49DKUE0aM52c2Le3cEvS7nwCHMemToRg4uv7tvVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbQHDGT65pF6ujLTDBJURBAIVLpQ7JS1BM2IAZyVFzTLxQEQw1fs5skADf0xSbCWVh2mEByzLG1CyRWqScxnio= X-Received: by 10.107.104.18 with SMTP id d18mr23087934ioc.136.1512411088899; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:11:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:11:28 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [50.253.109.65] In-Reply-To: <20171204180725.3480D2BA@spqr.komquats.com> References: <20171204180725.3480D2BA@spqr.komquats.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 11:11:28 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: twl9JAyZGXJC97pDcKsAqCfBUb0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert Cc: Alex Kozlov , Willem Jan Withagen , "arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 18:11:30 -0000 On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Cy Schubert wrote: > My test showed that MP i386 works as well. Amd64 is broken. What's the pathology on amd64? Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 18:13:58 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35CB7E671A8 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:13:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6E173789 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:13:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 16B9BE671A7; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:13:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164FBE671A6 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:13:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCE6273788; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:13:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LvFVemVFpss4TLvFXelRTU; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 11:13:51 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=JuuBlIwC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=mH2bB1jxAAAA:8 a=-AYFs7GOHYtDy-8DhE4A:9 a=sG7wwthmPerUhAjA:21 a=OP09vAJaovBVC1gR:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Cn186PPvH4P1VHuy1s4A:9 a=ui62bDNM9Dt97Qmz:21 a=Fm44x3CYoLGQF4RC:21 a=p2Z9G4CGkCXdlVUw:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=YVHI_lNIZdsyEBdj4OGd:22 Received: from [25.81.45.55] (S0106d4ca6d8943b0.gv.shawcable.net [24.68.134.59]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C8BD2E0; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:13:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 10:13:52 -0800 To: Willem Jan Withagen , Alex Kozlov CC: "arch@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20171204181349.6C8BD2E0@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMlHCTMj6/i1dSfRAkQ4hWV6mr/9gBYYgZwl/+4c0T4FYP8XfwV5tR9fyOHJMzOTYjcPf551YUxxKi2vsldxb7IBMNxOBYLCG6MvnLnioMc11tCZz4WO P3zmHzZaq6DgYeXJaglXI/iP5omw4p0hMzHhB4PukGFN2nzQ1ixi6a5SxDKVCTSjfSeAy7FdoE5VtEJ/+/LfCY2omLqVE2C8GpLCu5pER9AUpzNacL3++8fw Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 18:13:58 -0000 I have one of those, used to boot an IBM 3274 controller. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. This old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Willem Jan Withagen Sent: 04/12/2017 03:34 To: Alex Kozlov Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support On 4-12-2017 11:38, Alex Kozlov wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:26:17AM +0100, Willem Jan Withagen wrote: >> On 03/12/2017 13:18, Alex Kozlov wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:56:27AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> In message <20171203113341.GA68792@ravenloft.kiev.ua>, Alex Kozlov wri= tes: >>>>>> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 10:27:57 +0000 >>>>>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally FreeBSD is/was the only modern OS which could >>>>>>> still read 8" floppies. >>>>> Well, with proper* cable you can connect 8" drive to fdc and read >>>>> it pretty much on any OS that supports floppies. >>>> Uhm... no ? >>>> >>>> Very few OS's have had 8" format compatible settings since CP/M >>>> and even fewer handle the track46 pin correctly on write. >>> I'd done it in dos, I read about successful setups for Linux and >>> Windows(older). Anecdotally, I was not able to do it in FreeBSD. >> Never too late to learn.... >> >> I still think I have my (from 1982) 8" disks around with a ported CP/M=20 >> system to a TRS-80 like system... But ever since the Intel ASM/CPM=20 >> developement stack died on the University they have been lying round for >> nostalgic reasons. And the hardware got dumped with the last move about >> 12 years ago. >> >> But it never ever occured to me that FreeBSD would be able to do 8", if >> alone for the controller. But now I learn that it could have worked... >> Cool :) > Theoretically, it should work. In practice, as bde@ suggested, you may ne= ed > to use UP i386 kernel and perhaps downgrade to earlier version of FreeBSD= . > Also you need to somehow acquire 34-to-50 cable or adaptor*. I made mine, > so perhaps that why I failed :) > You don't need to worry about tg43 signal if you don't plan to write on t= hese > floppies. >=20 > In the end, after burning weekend on this little project, I realized that= I > risk to burn much more time, so I just ordered kryoflux. >=20 > *) something like this http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/h/c8ss= c.jpg Like I said. I'm keeping mine for nostalgic reason.... Don't have the drive any longer. Dare I say that I even have hard sectored 8" disks, when the start of block is actually indicated by a series of punched holes 8-) --WjW _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 20:34:39 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103EFE6A054 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:34:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34137833F for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:34:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id DFB1CE6A053; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:34:38 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF565E6A052 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:34:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6B767833E; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:34:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id LxRgeDbLup2osLxRieqoNv; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 13:34:36 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=KLEqNBNo c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=3wQyrZH30v5i-kV51GUA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84AFF3E3; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB4KNDHt072413; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB4KNC0e072391; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712042023.vB4KNC0e072391@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: Cy Schubert , Alex Kozlov , Willem Jan Withagen , "arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Mon, 04 Dec 2017 11:11:28 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:23:12 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMdCQlKDWNPUlJ90bnPowOkGQwKX4RfeC0x0UssM1pJGzfSxcIkDlU355ikVT9zJO63MT6ZfZAIdmJJxRLB0aolaJLD0lk2uRSQGCGyCOpH33DKCaXzE 116+u4oxB2FmrVRPKZVws63gJ2HUlFHDCdGOcO5Qd+8IyobVlAcboIO7jKi+Dzuei4ADNflNEqXZb10QWNny+uS3iIKao1x13IPaz+rPFsM6utKZSDQ6xTzN TDBkITyaDpi2JJI+uftohA== X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 20:34:39 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > --089e0825fdccb5682d055f87a50b > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Cy Schubert > wrote: > > > My test showed that MP i386 works as well. Amd64 is broken. > > > What's the pathology on amd64? Not really much except for I/O error. g_vfs_done():fd0[READ(offset=184320, length=512)]error = 5 I can dig into it unless someone else beats me to it. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 20:54:03 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0F1E6AA0C for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:54:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BF97923C for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:54:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 23F32E6AA0B; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:54:03 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23905E6AA0A for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:54:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22b.google.com (mail-it0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5B4D7923A for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:54:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id b5so16166013itc.3 for ; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:54:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=v3MX5iZVBo0KainN/yH9ihHbWGg+JVA//jdXyZcL4xc=; b=gXabySjk4LV0TyDrdV7MRaD5w5/k1UBMtRv6tQrKutopJJFPKtv8f+7yCLNkw82W2M FEOB54pVUbAKwP9v1z5PtL0l2gsfqFXp424YaQDlULra6jt5zHlzjtAR3vzEeGeZJK+6 XqmECitf5CsRkjQ9O8SxMT5Mtna23NPhKZHjwmUf/nAuacgoQscCdKqSjCpkQAa8tfqV VOP/ByBF+wXcuZO8c9W146Lbyl6U9Jjv0PZ0nJxcI55FUZljKL1mX8vq0CmxjeDj7Exk nQtGByWIYoJO+e4IFinD1DAlHm+g0XR+G5KWGhKNnDlJ14lPerzKXyUHHqBSnnwDp2MO t4LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v3MX5iZVBo0KainN/yH9ihHbWGg+JVA//jdXyZcL4xc=; b=qo/TJtARNWlOmmWXfTRxuDeLfTN6ewSSXvV4ClW81/CVzGGFGs4ZD3Lap1kv3WXP5D jtYHD9pwO5c0aTLFC/jHKcW4GCy1lUgaQ60a9J5LucHISpULRQ3BZSpAwiy+hIvZJ5kZ dPY9Hj7Lnekcy05tUrLJ6G6CNFEB8C35+IZzZGlN62SBoVQio0X2bjIUqoAXm72+jWWp Qstst1NI64XXRIazbJ5WSi6BXP++ebldmgmVrSI6cgnDJHqwWcmRRWJlJql4JUaK200l SShilXczO9jp1RiP1IvP56/pisbM0HXTCNuqgP4RzowlNogav34pYUl7JKfDHAmPIboL dP8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mI57PigItjx7itgOhy9tO+xCJKvK5wgD9VJIq/VWwh9JB5Ceyst hNz+pm+W8F+U/mK7Kc1CKDWHUW54naUtdzLF6x7+ug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZA/jB2DKd1LBdXpSkCOxdTgwpk1fYDPZSaTbwSevG/WgW57Z8QWlIF/yffhyEzQihonDtkrKExEylGlKxgrX0= X-Received: by 10.36.147.193 with SMTP id y184mr6019889itd.64.1512420842063; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:54:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:54:00 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [50.253.109.65] In-Reply-To: <201712042023.vB4KNC0e072391@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201712042023.vB4KNC0e072391@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 13:54:00 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8OsbiFuJLNdG6nGFOf21tEjiQBw Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Cy Schubert Cc: Alex Kozlov , Willem Jan Withagen , "arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 20:54:03 -0000 On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message mail.gmail.c > om> > , Warner Losh writes: > > --089e0825fdccb5682d055f87a50b > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Cy Schubert > > wrote: > > > > > My test showed that MP i386 works as well. Amd64 is broken. > > > > > > What's the pathology on amd64? > > Not really much except for I/O error. > > g_vfs_done():fd0[READ(offset=184320, length=512)]error = 5 > > I can dig into it unless someone else beats me to it. > OK. EIO is 5. The only EIO I see in the driver is where we've had too many retries. Set debug.fdc=-1 and see what you get for the error. If isa_dma_init can't get lomem, it returns 0 which will cause the driver to not attach, which isn't what we're seeing. However, if configmalloc() bogusly returns an address too large, we don't check for that in isa_dma.c. I don't think that's the bug, since I'd expect different pathology. diff --git a/sys/x86/isa/isa_dma.c b/sys/x86/isa/isa_dma.c index 58601f85ae2..5c314863718 100644 --- a/sys/x86/isa/isa_dma.c +++ b/sys/x86/isa/isa_dma.c @@ -107,6 +107,12 @@ isa_dma_init(int chan, u_int bouncebufsize, int flag) if (buf == NULL) { buf = contigmalloc(bouncebufsize, M_DEVBUF, flag, 0ul, 0xfffffful, 1ul, chan & 4 ? 0x20000ul : 0x10000ul); + if (buf != NULL && + isa_dmarangecheck(buf, bouncebufsize, chan) != 0) { + printf("isa_dma_init: %p failed range check\n", buf); + contigfree(buf, bouncebufsize, M_DEVBUF); + buf = NULL; + } contig = 1; } But EIO suggests we're timing out or getting repeated errors on the command, and debug.fdc will get to the bottom of that. Might be nice to have isa_dma_init print out the buffer it gets always, just to rule out badness. I don't know if I have a box that can run amd64, but has a floppy anymore... I'll have to check my boneyard. Anyway, good luck. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 5 21:31:16 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F939E82DEE; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 21:31:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benno@FreeBSD.org) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19BAF71A8E; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 21:31:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benno@FreeBSD.org) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233C5222A7; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from web3 ([10.202.2.213]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:31:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=9P1M6U8lAQsPBgoQWyKlU6oxv+4sT FYIv2fJSoT2Rkg=; b=PyAQ4fHH8awr7pWsmnLal6aObPCFmXepEjP78NVBrfv9C IDKVCqZEJs1bJ8bseSaMntf+I+UxkmGXSWePzTRXF+vmqusAl5fAe1Ln//Q9FRDH Thp84z343ntX32DbbQKNWb4kVxBAeslblFNdDl93nbKo0za3EnWo5pxzjlmghLNH emfnzvb3vEZZC6c7jxrpAvOxGbdjlSb2m6qbH5LG0T7kfgd13gnnJ2A5uuSc582V GbzgBSwTBr87YGWw/PrtFN8wiH6O0q2MkT90zpvmxD8N4SDz0T/UOxUen/Ozsg9b 6YBxXj5Y4UY4S+ysY2PhllW67I9WRfEdazeb+5JMw== X-ME-Sender: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id D09239E17F; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:31:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: Benno Rice To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-1b87d328 Subject: Conclusion of fortune(6) discussion Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:31:13 -0800 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 21:31:16 -0000 Hi all, First up I=E2=80=99d like to apologize for the length of time between my fi= rst email and this. I wanted to wait for the various discussions to play out somewhat and then I had a conference I needed to prep for. I should=E2=80= =99ve worked the timing around that better. So now that the dust has settled somewhat, I feel that the consensus decision is for fortune to remain in base along with freebsd-tips. Some points I=E2=80=99d like to make based on the discussion: Firstly, there were a number of suggestions that removing fortune et al from base is some form of complete deletion. It=E2=80=99s not. It=E2=80=99s= merely that FreeBSD stops distributing it as part of our releases. The code is still available in our Subversion history. Nothing in what I was proposing precluded creating a port. I will however admit that not mentioning a port at all left that unclear. Which brings me to point number two: My discussion was about base, not ports. It=E2=80=99s my firm belief that if I propose removing code from bas= e the onus shouldn=E2=80=99t be on me to create and thus, under the rules governi= ng ports, become the maintainer of a port for a piece of code I have no interest in maintaining. That=E2=80=99s not fair to anyone involved. There= =E2=80=99ve been ongoing efforts to streamline and slim down base. fortune seemed like an obvious thing to move out. There should absolutely be a discussion whenever anyone proposes moving code out of base and that should absolutely leave the option open for that code to move to ports. If a port is created though it should be done by someone with an interest in maintaining the code. And my final point: This was never about political correctness. I am not apologizing for making this move without discussion as any discussion would=E2=80=99ve turned out exactly like the threads that showed up. There = would have been no consensus. There would have been accusations of bias, bad faith and pointless bickering from all directions. The difference to me is that by removing these files from base we never have to have this argument again. If we kept the file we would=E2=80=99ve potentially had this discussion every time the file was touched or looked at by a new pair of eyes. I acknowledge the history that the fortune files embody but we=E2=80= =99re not living in that history any more. We=E2=80=99re living now. The world in= 2017 is not the world in 1987 or the world in 1997. Like it or not we live in a world where there is more expectation on everyone to acknowledge that what is funny to them may be offensive to others and that the nature of that offense may not be immediately obvious. Like I said in another post FreeBSD is an operating system, not an encyclopedia. There are far better projects for collecting humour, quotes, and history than ours. We should let ourselves focus on what we=E2=80=99re good at. Thanks, Benno. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 5 22:30:57 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5E8E8549F; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:30:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E707602D; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:30:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3801027396; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:30:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB5MUYAO024030 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:30:34 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB5MUXEJ024029; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:30:33 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Benno Rice cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conclusion of fortune(6) discussion In-reply-to: <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine.com> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <24027.1512513033.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 22:30:33 +0000 Message-ID: <24028.1512513033@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 22:30:57 -0000 -------- In message <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine= .com> , Benno Rice writes: > I acknowledge the history that the fortune files embody but we=E2=80=99r= e >not living in that history any more. We=E2=80=99re living now. The world = in 2017 >is not the world in 1987 or the world in 1997. To me this is the most convincing argument for getting rid of the old jokes: Fortune(6) as joke-supply only make sense if somebody humourously competent actively curate the collection of jokes. Distributing the same old jokes, year after year, release after release is a ritual, and it is certainly not funny. We can argue exactly how well curated the freebsd-tips are, but they are by definition fresh to their intended audience and even I will admit to having learned something from one or two of them. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 6 01:57:11 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2246AE8B56F; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:57:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD75C7D6E5; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:57:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vB61v9wr013842; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:57:09 GMT (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id vB61v9E3013835; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:57:09 GMT (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201712060157.vB61v9E3013835@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 01:57:09 +0000 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, benno@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conclusion of fortune(6) discussion References: <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine.com> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 01:57:11 -0000 Benno Rice wrote: > Firstly, there were a number of suggestions that removing fortune et al > from base is some form of complete deletion. It’s not. It’s merely that > FreeBSD stops distributing it as part of our releases. The code is still > available in our Subversion history. That's hardly an argument - you could apply that to anything! Personally. I don't give a rats-arse either way about fortune(6), but agree with others who were uncomfortable that one person just decides to whip out a command that isn't causing problems or security issues without warning. I'm not even talking necessarily about discussions with us plebs; in my 20+ years of FreeBSD, whilst just about everything is discussed, I can't once remember one person just arbitarily removing a command without warning like that. And, you seem to be agreeing about discussion and announcements, Here: > Nothing in what I was proposing precluded creating a port. and here: > Which brings me to point number two: My discussion was about base, not > ports. and here: > There should absolutely be a > discussion whenever anyone proposes moving code out of base and that But then you wrote: > And my final point: This was never about political correctness. I am not > apologizing for making this move without discussion as any discussion So, you say things should be discussed, yet you're not apologising for the fact you made the move without discussion, which sounds like you just broke your own guidelines. Cheers, Jamie From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 6 16:16:09 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E929BE844EA; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 16:16:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03BF780D7; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 16:16:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A5FA716045; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:16:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:18:15 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Cc: Benno Rice , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conclusion of fortune(6) discussion Message-ID: <20171205221815.VDf9r%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengine.com> <24028.1512513033@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <24028.1512513033@critter.freebsd.dk> Mail-Followup-To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , Benno Rice , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Steffen Nurpmeso User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.5-41-g29c58dc6 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 16:16:10 -0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: |In message <1512509473.1313677.1195210352.2DC7580C@webmail.messagingengin= e.c\ |om> |, Benno Rice writes: | |> I acknowledge the history that the fortune files embody but we=E2=80=99re |>not living in that history any more. We=E2=80=99re living now. The world= in 2017 |>is not the world in 1987 or the world in 1997. | |To me this is the most convincing argument for getting rid of the |old jokes: Fortune(6) as joke-supply only make sense if somebody |humourously competent actively curate the collection of jokes. | |Distributing the same old jokes, year after year, release after |release is a ritual, and it is certainly not funny. | |We can argue exactly how well curated the freebsd-tips are, but |they are by definition fresh to their intended audience and even I |will admit to having learned something from one or two of them. The public discourse (of those countries that i have on my media radar, embarassingly few) beats with a sledgehammer of lies and an overwhelming amount of (superficial) facts without giving any context. It is not the time for receiving undertones in between written lines, and it seems it has become an impossibility to expect them to appear before one mind's eye just because of the context in which they .. indeed appear. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 6 22:33:43 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5959E8E785 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33B965CB9 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id AFBB8E8E784; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:33:43 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF612E8E783 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9035D65CB8; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id BBCBE13FE7; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:33:41 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="huu3o22uzx2iwrhs" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:33:43 -0000 --huu3o22uzx2iwrhs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi all, I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL by default removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the fact it does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: ldap support for example, check the number of options available in the sendmail port. Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of sendmail. The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: relaying emails externally and deliver locally. We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a configuration file understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the setuid binary capsicumized. dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventing its usage in real life situations: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=208263 I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full featured mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users and non sendmail users. If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn sendmail option off by december 15th. Best regards, Bapt --huu3o22uzx2iwrhs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAloocEIACgkQY4mL3PG3 PlrfsQ/+JtLGZ8vCbEl+HzxXB94WRdX6Tvccl7TgBq0BoSQXM9FkFFRE4fAshFL5 WvbUnNCGxhDmfKOj6xczK1A3wFRJWkV8iXWPcNH/PLGlE32ZjtATtybHhKUpdbkm lwP8RPvAckJXsFjsiiqQK5tZtnQVHLU1c03/4gT4BrdvIb6NbKDAJ34AzyTYGFo1 rh64fHAmuDHf456h7tZ+0CxshIdfNrNXmv45efMEfXyReDcXtGk9Vark7CQnWxOU erhmOqxEwOXeUrYFypAHHbp9JgqB7vAH2b0ue4y2ifpA85P9hd6rel81fJn10JF1 BPwhMenpG6yvWZNIrFd/BBXqKS4ZJjshww6YzmCIwm74fB8MfFjKbPlgOVs9IrGg 210bWw0hzd3YzLYWV5PIvi/dY4ckEX7vN8PH17fj7ncNNJ+2cb/upm7mL/CDv1jL R+WczUvn0eb5TLXuxF5uAxR/uRdJqSjJKn3/y6XloXhqdQB1KepGgJ2qA0cKMTw8 sn07BFRLGX71gIXYuu9NACJ1nAyfAHvqqcxflEy7bZ2E8Rexh9FR5DraBUGt9fc0 ORgQ+6/eP9QWNENpv/1df3PugAftK4AbjqStB4DrO+eE6uYauUbJb1/SmXgTxyhZ teh8jChT+jb+agEUAVFM9CSFD+Izwar/F4ZEPMx6yaIyh1wTsZ8= =DuAn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --huu3o22uzx2iwrhs-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 6 22:41:32 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CA8E8EC73 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFC4662B6 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 4B473E8EC72; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:32 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486A7E8EC71 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1783E662B2; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vB6MfVBb036011; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:31 GMT (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id vB6MfVp3036009; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:41:31 GMT (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201712062241.vB6MfVp3036009@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:41:31 +0000 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: bapt@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Cc: gshapiro@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:41:31 +0000 (GMT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:41:32 -0000 Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > by default I use sendmail, but as for reasons you cite, I use sendmail from ports, and have been building WITHOUT_SENDMAIL for as long as I can remember. It therefore seems perfectly reasonable to me, for what it's worth. cheers From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 6 23:20:15 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2E0E8FB88 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2DD67B8A for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 3E7CEE8FB87; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E24DE8FB86 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:130:3ffc::401:25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx1.sbone.de", Issuer "SBone.DE" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 002F867B88; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:20:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BAFB25D385E; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:20:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70082D1F898; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:19:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B5gRHKaHnBVt; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:19:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.224] (fresh-ayiya.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f001::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 186D7D1F896; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:19:57 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: "Baptiste Daroussin" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 23:19:56 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6100) Message-ID: <7737D840-87F0-4862-A32C-84F340479298@lists.zabbadoz.net> In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 23:20:15 -0000 On 6 Dec 2017, at 22:33, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in > base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built > WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > by default > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 I don’t see the point of keeping the source and possible support for it in base for another 5-ish years if it’s not build by default. If this should go through then just don’t ship it at all anymore in 12.0-RELEASE please. /bz From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 01:55:42 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09730E961FE for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 01:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE38D6F0BF for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 01:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id DD864E961FD; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 01:55:41 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2F7E961FC for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 01:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B1476F0BE; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 01:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id MlPWeQPzYp2osMlPXezs4x; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:55:40 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=KLEqNBNo c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=mi56gJdQAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=EQgySroFtVL6OilYZpcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=m6W23KLcDyq3lIHOBnQi:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61AD1AB4; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB71tbJI006233; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB71tbRZ006229; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:55:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712070155.vB71tbRZ006229@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Baptiste Daroussin cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? In-Reply-To: Message from Baptiste Daroussin of "Wed, 06 Dec 2017 23:33:41 +0100." <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 17:55:37 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMyIKdtrFyqrfm14EX8ECxvEou4oAIczbhPFVSm60ojwANwLHoc/q1YxKHkiqX7FLVqP6iE4GQVXjCxjM5QFI9wlHC3qyGndJg/V49dx07T47VnbtAHV rQGhzldrUeOJzSenA+oJv7K4EGCpv9jMV2q9UJnrSQ2bv+mhtCnAQDvVGERXfV5hPKLGSEWAT4MAwxW+jh0iHVb0JGzPMchHhcRqhH1+j8w5G4Onb9s2fHzZ X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 01:55:42 -0000 In message <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net>, Baptiste Daroussin wr ites: > > --huu3o22uzx2iwrhs > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi all, > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDM > AIL > by default > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the fact > it > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: ldap > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendmail po > rt. > > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of sendmai > l. > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > > We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a configuration fil > e > understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the setuid > binary capsicumized. > > dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventing its > usage in real life situations: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=208263 > > I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full featured > mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users and no > n > sendmail users. Deprecate sendmail but no dma please. If anything, a small shell script to invoke dialog to allow the user to select their MTA package of choice. This could run at first boot -- which covers bsdinstall users and users who install from source. Please no dma. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 02:01:55 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A6EE96842 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5CA6F622 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9CA59E96841; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:01:55 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C44CE96840 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-f45.google.com (mail-it0-f45.google.com [209.85.214.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C0A26F620 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:01:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-f45.google.com with SMTP id p139so11179360itb.1 for ; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=b8wZQSzfkbQKijYa32ScSyhcK8Xmy61kpUrD/sMw3HM=; b=e9fjd3ZCtNuvI76laDqThNbqSpZSl2yCyQ0rdX59ghr3D2iDJ7v+F81+I3wUZD0cjL FSwmsf//TTcSHERGG3fjY6SyHw5UJMOEYAvJlaQ3cu0z7nIz3TasCXhkJmwdQgWvx+Rv ztyltVCHDjLWWV2jJlOxlAGbdBLdH7oMJ2semHVH/KDj/c2RevPkbcunrhbpVWPORros G96yGYEdK2nfOe74+2FJbCIuvWo+jLjkGCpmKDo1EBaD4jdxvAzOEb9Gq8IaqWJwn+JY d7xlAZKRyfGwXm5ICHJA8MvL3nsVKPtpaAhdXlKIP5FtUkDs9iddy5mMbv5orfc2SH1X G5iA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKkAHgE5vFkoLDavgY74z5QWTPIvnSShizzmxZR2MBs6zKQHQWn G8yB5Ea7Im/4J5VhaJxkivjHNpVs X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMa28QdSh2P2aYFtHeKI1ZjR9T104wbF5v28Md1aGsD+O75WcE2fB1djVJSY1zT/yAU/QjY5/Q== X-Received: by 10.36.154.68 with SMTP id l65mr17139000ite.150.1512612108278; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-f53.google.com (mail-it0-f53.google.com. [209.85.214.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d3sm2227456itf.1.2017.12.06.18.01.48 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 68so10902846ite.4 for ; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:01:48 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.107.158.193 with SMTP id h184mr36274024ioe.256.1512612107892; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:01:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org Received: by 10.2.165.150 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:01:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201712070155.vB71tbRZ006229@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <201712070155.vB71tbRZ006229@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Conrad Meyer Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:01:47 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: Cy Schubert Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:01:55 -0000 On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:55 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > Deprecate sendmail but no dma please. If anything, a small shell script to > invoke dialog to allow the user to select their MTA package of choice. This > could run at first boot -- which covers bsdinstall users and users who > install from source. > > Please no dma. Please elaborate beyond "no dma." Thanks, Conrad From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 02:22:29 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744CDE97732 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5441E70459 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 539D6E97731; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FDEE97730 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A6A970455; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:22:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id MlpSeQWMap2osMlpTezwb0; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 19:22:28 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=KLEqNBNo c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=BWvPGDcYAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=bxnYMb62UoOKVrNPJYcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=oappaISLdyUA:10 a=pxhY87DP9d2VeQe4joPk:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AFA0D10; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB72MPjv011637; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:22:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB72MPhr011634; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:22:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712070222.vB72MPhr011634@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: cem@freebsd.org cc: Cy Schubert , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? In-Reply-To: Message from Conrad Meyer of "Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:01:47 -0800." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:22:25 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBBJIPsJOZroVIz6d5GmdNjrRIkOoYPJGxF55/r6hxd9ys7T3KmPEVw/DNkRr+g7LURQ2RzBPgWY3ZAPH+F0OXPzKrxwY9ZfgjI0F0EWTFt+SByZlI/D qj8T2r22r1mvkAtQ4Yivj4I00lAQUKTxaYYQ3JU0sZXbdAyAROnpwmXGvJ4lApwSaiGXwk9qbRhaLp8jRvyXmwijy53XTTpmjvs= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:22:29 -0000 In message , Conrad Meyer writes: > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:55 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > Deprecate sendmail but no dma please. If anything, a small shell script to > > invoke dialog to allow the user to select their MTA package of choice. This > > could run at first boot -- which covers bsdinstall users and users who > > install from source. > > > > Please no dma. > > Please elaborate beyond "no dma." Replace sendmail with a dialog that installs the user's MTA of choice, which ports/pkgs has many to choose from. IMO we are replacing one bloat with other. At the very least there should be a knob not to build/install dma. P.S. Not related to this discussion, my choice of MTA BTW is one package for exterior facing servers and another for internal boxes. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 02:31:55 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52333E97F83 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rpokala@panasas.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167B770C86 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rpokala@panasas.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 15D64E97F82; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:55 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15780E97F81 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rpokala@panasas.com) Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam03on0056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.42.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "Microsoft IT SSL SHA2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C01CA70C84; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rpokala@panasas.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=panasas.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-panasas-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=3xPZF3Ldtb1ztlIwYn2Le4rVogyoXtX7OSgQIIlxHGg=; b=J97gPfeHNrychM6ZtHhd6oBrQPP2EdBxN0llSAds3n7e8tlspZTQjt9QwXtQghBdJEIooxYndY0+FwpIJ1crP/uIS7ivvb2ctrATAwKEYVunDvTDwK0stHgP6Gk/FT80rC0ZzpA2AeqJRGz4KP7HrOLz5i5SBgTfsJFBJsL7CtA= Received: from BY1PR0801MB0967.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.160.202.13) by BY1PR0801MB0968.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.160.202.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.302.9; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:51 +0000 Received: from BY1PR0801MB0967.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::39a9:8c77:b240:3e0b]) by BY1PR0801MB0967.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::39a9:8c77:b240:3e0b%13]) with mapi id 15.20.0302.007; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:51 +0000 From: "Pokala, Ravi" To: Cy Schubert , "cem@freebsd.org" CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? Thread-Topic: Sendmail deprecation ? Thread-Index: AQHTbwOJ2tdlmYkkekGTLEjZMJSjXA== Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:31:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201712070222.vB72MPhr011634@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: <201712070222.vB72MPhr011634@slippy.cwsent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.28.0.171108 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rpokala@panasas.com; x-originating-ip: [12.202.168.51] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BY1PR0801MB0968; 6:q5nH+GIwhNbOlGb1EXGZ9mL7UZ+DLSS17s03IHkQl7hfVe/j4wIgzxJrN/ua3nn4iq1SeAel2COxz2nzIZVO6wnFwg3cqHWNSi2Mz5GJgxTCuzX61QkqrPLBYFwrQoAZz5fuwaajt8dx8RF+4oHIqEC1v64q3rNrAUNajxATo4hKc3Ndwj9LXAuYO4+BnkrmCBx+VMqNsZaSp0ZsDhMbEd2EgnSAA7qsDaFMrIiaNLpf2HoSaSdUrMfYsgzu3wt8YRCD6hRhOrIVI/GiEFdnaamfUXDX/4dDEJUq9HiXUbSdXHE7dh/A9J8n/+ib4HLSXGkODsGtXbZGBspLalSA3ykWr3msShqeOnc652ZfakY=; 5:xrl52ymI0ND026uoo0pdC85/zF4sqqd76WwUpAewyFNXALbI+qwkR50o7TZ6ixjedGLiOW1fyuFYVnNAmWU28KKlhdXfQHmB5vRjsRxpatGDvHLiG9IoQl+azC0Rpz331KJqwsABPtzfc7TD8JWkaiRSkTLbgofoV34PB0qeT8I=; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: panasas.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 44fe9440-27d9-4f74-d22b-08d53d1aac4a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Dec 2017 02:31:50.8228 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: acf01c9d-c699-42af-bdbb-44bf582e60b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0801MB0968 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:31:55 -0000 U28gbGVzcyAibm8gZG1hKDgpIiwgYW5kIG1vcmUgIm5vIGRlZmF1bHQgTVRBIGF0IGFsbDsgbWFr ZSB0aGVtIHNlbGVjdCBvbmUiPw0KDQotUmF2aQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0t LQ0KRnJvbTogPG93bmVyLWZyZWVic2QtYXJjaEBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz4gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEN5 IFNjaHViZXJ0IDxDeS5TY2h1YmVydEBrb21xdWF0cy5jb20+DQpSZXBseS1UbzogQ3kgU2NodWJl cnQgPEN5LlNjaHViZXJ0QGtvbXF1YXRzLmNvbT4NCkRhdGU6IDIwMTctMTItMDYsIFdlZG5lc2Rh eSBhdCAxODoyMg0KVG86IDxjZW1AZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc+DQpDYzogImZyZWVic2QtYXJjaEBmcmVl YnNkLm9yZyIgPGFyY2hAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUkZDOiBTZW5kbWFpbCBk ZXByZWNhdGlvbiA/DQoNCkluIG1lc3NhZ2UgPENBRzZDVnBWUDdGMDgwdFZYRVdOaDljLVB1Y0It X0dFY0NwbVJMNDNlV0I1bVRRTkxjZ0BtYWlsLmdtYWlsLmMNCm9tPg0KLCBDb25yYWQgTWV5ZXIg d3JpdGVzOg0KPiBPbiBXZWQsIERlYyA2LCAyMDE3IGF0IDU6NTUgUE0sIEN5IFNjaHViZXJ0IDxD eS5TY2h1YmVydEBrb21xdWF0cy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+IERlcHJlY2F0ZSBzZW5kbWFpbCBi dXQgbm8gZG1hIHBsZWFzZS4gSWYgYW55dGhpbmcsIGEgc21hbGwgc2hlbGwgc2NyaXB0IHRvDQo+ ID4gaW52b2tlIGRpYWxvZyB0byBhbGxvdyB0aGUgdXNlciB0byBzZWxlY3QgdGhlaXIgTVRBIHBh Y2thZ2Ugb2YgY2hvaWNlLiBUaGlzDQo+ID4gY291bGQgcnVuIGF0IGZpcnN0IGJvb3QgLS0gd2hp Y2ggY292ZXJzIGJzZGluc3RhbGwgdXNlcnMgYW5kIHVzZXJzIHdobw0KPiA+IGluc3RhbGwgZnJv bSBzb3VyY2UuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBQbGVhc2Ugbm8gZG1hLg0KPg0KPiBQbGVhc2UgZWxhYm9yYXRl IGJleW9uZCAibm8gZG1hLiINCg0KUmVwbGFjZSBzZW5kbWFpbCB3aXRoIGEgZGlhbG9nIHRoYXQg aW5zdGFsbHMgdGhlIHVzZXIncyBNVEEgb2YgY2hvaWNlLCANCndoaWNoIHBvcnRzL3BrZ3MgaGFz IG1hbnkgdG8gY2hvb3NlIGZyb20uIElNTyB3ZSBhcmUgcmVwbGFjaW5nIG9uZSBibG9hdCANCndp dGggb3RoZXIuDQoNCkF0IHRoZSB2ZXJ5IGxlYXN0IHRoZXJlIHNob3VsZCBiZSBhIGtub2Igbm90 IHRvIGJ1aWxkL2luc3RhbGwgZG1hLg0KDQpQLlMuIE5vdCByZWxhdGVkIHRvIHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vz c2lvbiwgbXkgY2hvaWNlIG9mIE1UQSBCVFcgaXMgb25lIHBhY2thZ2UgDQpmb3IgZXh0ZXJpb3Ig ZmFjaW5nIHNlcnZlcnMgYW5kIGFub3RoZXIgZm9yIGludGVybmFsIGJveGVzLg0KDQoNCi0tIA0K Q2hlZXJzLA0KQ3kgU2NodWJlcnQgPEN5LlNjaHViZXJ0QGNzY2h1YmVydC5jb20+DQpGcmVlQlNE IFVOSVg6ICA8Y3lARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+ICAgV2ViOiAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5GcmVlQlNELm9yZw0K DQoJVGhlIG5lZWQgb2YgdGhlIG1hbnkgb3V0d2VpZ2hzIHRoZSBncmVlZCBvZiB0aGUgZmV3Lg0K DQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpmcmVl YnNkLWFyY2hAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpodHRwczovL2xpc3RzLmZyZWVic2Qu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZnJlZWJzZC1hcmNoDQpUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSwgc2VuZCBh bnkgbWFpbCB0byAiZnJlZWJzZC1hcmNoLXVuc3Vic2NyaWJlQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnIg0KDQoNCg== From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 02:51:13 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DA7E98A1C for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:51:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A81715BF for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:51:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B00F8E98A1B; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:51:13 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB33E98A1A for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:51:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 790EA715BD; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 02:51:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id MmHGeQd2rp2osMmHHe01HA; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 19:51:12 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=KLEqNBNo c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=cOLrLDMxAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=J3XbJutiNhN4F_W5TowA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=P0s3qUPvOpV5zndjNR8V:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00C47F4A; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB72p5Pg054513; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB72p58k054508; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:51:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Pokala, Ravi" cc: Cy Schubert , "cem@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? In-Reply-To: Message from "Pokala, Ravi" of "Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:31:50 +0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:51:05 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDt+ESwvJ5WatbvElt+PReSDJsAElIQJhFNp1bV/9L1X3U9qJ408BF+kBCV5IZ5YLzIt18tXijYMRQCtqBMGor5q1yfKSwOL9Xv8U53IbgOlscbyH/PC BWEk/iY5BXHmvjb9Jc+nomPnW6EXU6FyaF/za6/tfu0ekZP7KIJgEo/WSbtFGeMUxMfcXNa2zH35zXy86KamKo1ajZQC8dbtS7LU7/+kMUDuNrL0ktc/vHzb X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:51:13 -0000 In message , "Pokala, Ravi" w rites: > So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one"? Yes. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 03:48:51 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B314DE9AE27 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 03:48:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9144973C01 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 03:48:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 90B42E9AE26; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 03:48:51 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90642E9AE25 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 03:48:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28BBD73BF4; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 03:48:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id MnAwegYIQGvLHMnAxeqEJH; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 20:48:45 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=a9pAzQaF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=ocR9PWop10UA:10 a=VxmjJ2MpAAAA:8 a=cOLrLDMxAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=-bCde6y68im2v9xUIxIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=7gXAzLPJhVmCkEl4_tsf:22 a=P0s3qUPvOpV5zndjNR8V:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0C6D12F0; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB73mfrN095197; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vB73mesl095194; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:48:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201712070348.vB73mesl095194@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Cy Schubert cc: "Pokala, Ravi" , Cy Schubert , "cem@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , ghapiro@freebsd.org, gjb@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? In-Reply-To: Message from Cy Schubert of "Wed, 06 Dec 2017 18:51:05 -0800." <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 19:48:40 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMhyCnNu0geLjFLjttDzadG8AVhPv4+nqxuIS0Sijv7SUuykFJMW8QqRJOTT07nFIq4fATaRugw2bL0QJ/W6yREgZOeDOyftiAY8EZKlzgGIWlOvrScx pqF1yfHNtffOhz2FeIygFXxpF7c6UyivDiAVza4atJ4CiOUkg/n+CV5RgyEKcO2SvYDy/2R4cgP33LIKDTwC3piKcul/zOnUqAzFMSoy4Ym9CQoI2yMfDyCL Tsrs+Sm9t8bm7IKxDn7IVr8VyriXrKvYrW0yxas6m/+Ht47PPPUtnF93dyBx00Rt X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 03:48:51 -0000 In message <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert writes: > In message , "Pokala, > Ravi" w > rites: > > So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one" > ? > > Yes. Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.) Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months. (I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA is the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and should be a good compromise for all. As gjb@ has been working toward packaged base, would it not be a good time for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages? Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 04:16:18 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4194AE9BC13 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4A774B10 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2AA51E9BC12; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:18 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4A7E9BC11 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mx2.catspoiler.org (mx2.catspoiler.org [IPv6:2607:f740:16::d18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B16874B0F; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from gw.catspoiler.org (gw.catspoiler.org [75.1.14.242]) by mx2.catspoiler.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB74GIKx023717 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:20 GMT (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mousie.catspoiler.org (mousie.catspoiler.org [192.168.101.2]) by gw.catspoiler.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB74G9Et001409 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:16:04 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: Baptiste Daroussin cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> Message-ID: References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Disposition: INLINE X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 04:16:18 -0000 On 6 Dec, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > by default > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the fact it > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: ldap > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendmail port. > > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of sendmail. > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. I've found that sendmail in base meets my needs. I haven't had the need for any of the features that are only available in the port. It doesn't looks like dma(8) would be useful for me on my primary machines since I basically need its inverse. It would only be useful on my headless machines to forward cron-generated mail to my mail server. I don't do any local delivery of mail to mbox files. My mail server delivers all mail to cyrus-imapd via lmtp, which is a fairly simple tweak to the sendmail.mc file. I also have a couple of mail relays that do some smart routing and spam filtering. One thing that is comes with sendmail in base but is missing from the sendmail port is all the handy stuff in /etc/mail, such as the freebsd.mc template, the aliases file, and the Makefile which makes maintaining the config files and the .db files much easier. Without this stuff, setting up the sendmail port would be much more intimidating. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 04:16:51 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14E2E9BC71 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC3574BCB for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9D249E9BC70; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:51 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD13E9BC6F for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (mail.karels.net [216.160.39.52]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5335A74BCA; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 04:16:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.karels.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vB74GhD8050840; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:16:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Message-Id: <201712070416.vB74GhD8050840@mail.karels.net> To: Cy Schubert cc: Cy Schubert , gjb@freebsd.org, "Pokala, Ravi" , ghapiro@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "cem@freebsd.org" From: Mike Karels Reply-to: mike@karels.net Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 06 Dec 2017 19:48:40 -0800. <201712070348.vB73mesl095194@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <50838.1512620203.1@mail.karels.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:16:43 -0600 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 04:16:51 -0000 > ... A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the > user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period > of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and > should be a good compromise for all. Without specifying a mechanism, I agree that providing a menu would be good. I don't think it should time out. Certain other OS installers provide a menu of optional software to select (or not), even including sshd. In the case I'm thinking of, there is one such menu, but it would be nice to support menus by group, and for example, allowing at most one selection in a category. Hopefully this would not turn into a long series of menus, but selecting an MTA up front would be good. > Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is. That's not quite true yet; all of base is installed, and packages take an extra step now. Mike From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 08:28:51 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9531CE80065 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 814F77C064 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 80B38E80064; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805BAE80063 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 427687C063; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id 90DDA1D9B5; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:28:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:28:50 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Cy Schubert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171207082850.weq3d77fvl4nustm@ivaldir.net> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <201712070155.vB71tbRZ006229@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xmflxqmgwqjg6ibs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201712070155.vB71tbRZ006229@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 08:28:51 -0000 --xmflxqmgwqjg6ibs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 05:55:37PM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net>, Baptiste=20 > Daroussin wr > ites: > >=20 > > --huu3o22uzx2iwrhs > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > > Content-Disposition: inline > > > > Hi all, > > > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in bas= e. > > > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT= _SENDM > > AIL > > by default > > > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > > > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the= fact=20 > > it > > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require:= ldap > > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendm= ail po > > rt. > > > > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of s= endmai > > l. > > > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > > > > We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a configurati= on fil > > e > > understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the set= uid > > binary capsicumized. > > > > dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventin= g its > > usage in real life situations: > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D208263 > > > > I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full fe= atured > > mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users = and no > > n > > sendmail users. >=20 > Deprecate sendmail but no dma please. If anything, a small shell script t= o=20 > invoke dialog to allow the user to select their MTA package of choice. Th= is=20 > could run at first boot -- which covers bsdinstall users and users who=20 > install from source. >=20 > Please no dma. Can you elaborate on the no dma? dma is already there, and meets the needs for most setup, relaying mails or deliver them locally. mailer.conf will remain meaning people will be able to chose whatever is their favorite mta. Best regards, Bapt --xmflxqmgwqjg6ibs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAloo+8IACgkQY4mL3PG3 PlpTZRAAvQnTKWFaolDlGo4H9XilgHf9NhtHxFohGCMmmcz8mfmGJwms/TaaLpzZ SjgsO/C+BIPkNBTWW0T79/kuikAWXHFxVZdMU4W35AVed1+BnD9JsT+vuf8rthKs /SuwMC9qmfb+cLCtIkpalrDt05Dwhu4dITwn45uufpZC5+f4WtHUJ5hyUxY3sU9E 04R58znphB/nr0zrqQe3bVxXlfQmToZMuzOc4OjqCzvzU6/E2LRzDbKtJXk/Dvkb 9K5PfS4ApGuSBMMGVsQCw9jngv9SDt2sMkm2RxdVVlx2q+Ru4cMGaeoPKn98+wN8 VqKrkVAwH01/biuJoRQcXbejo9ZMK9fbd4h3v17mpuYpUOnBzveh/0CaD/ooNg4Y RLsJhUOvitV4y2tAYsXtcFoCpAZwIvdGV0pAyNX339dJbVk/FrFXrQNeK1p/vux/ mtr6Oy9sNSA6ZQkcIk6CM7P6idpkwreUat5y7GObB7CTUHSdabwwLuEnSb/BFbKb iQcowXVJ+TAjVtXzvzZVJ+DbLshzUoffk+JOz2VQ8vw087UKQI9Wv+mieZZQ8oxH WZ7eIXpgvVB97MXoQ1U1rLOa7CMSx2Gu/9UDB19aoypFm17YuEFa/ppaSvhfMU8j ug5sO/1MjKCmpB3CiNC5eDLw123xyLksl1ttTpfaRbuAXJ65kNo= =aRez -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xmflxqmgwqjg6ibs-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 08:29:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929A0E800CA for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:29:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9EC7C130 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:29:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7EE06E800C9; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:29:37 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFB2E800C8 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:29:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CE637C12F; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:29:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id 9BFE41DA53; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:29:36 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:29:36 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Don Lewis Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171207082936.gh26ankyfbckzmkd@ivaldir.net> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ptwwuo37ejqmwpwd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 08:29:37 -0000 --ptwwuo37ejqmwpwd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 08:16:04PM -0800, Don Lewis wrote: > On 6 Dec, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > Hi all, > >=20 > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in bas= e. > >=20 > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT= _SENDMAIL > > by default > >=20 > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > >=20 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the= fact it > > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require:= ldap > > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendm= ail port. > >=20 > > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of s= endmail. > >=20 > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. >=20 > I've found that sendmail in base meets my needs. I haven't had the need > for any of the features that are only available in the port. >=20 > It doesn't looks like dma(8) would be useful for me on my primary > machines since I basically need its inverse. It would only be useful > on my headless machines to forward cron-generated mail to my mail > server. I don't do any local delivery of mail to mbox files. My mail > server delivers all mail to cyrus-imapd via lmtp, which is a fairly > simple tweak to the sendmail.mc file. I also have a couple of mail > relays that do some smart routing and spam filtering. >=20 > One thing that is comes with sendmail in base but is missing from the > sendmail port is all the handy stuff in /etc/mail, such as the > freebsd.mc template, the aliases file, and the Makefile which makes > maintaining the config files and the .db files much easier. Without > this stuff, setting up the sendmail port would be much more > intimidating. >=20 Yup, It would be a good idea to merge them in the port probably, somone nee= ds to talk to the port maintainer. Best regards, Bapt --ptwwuo37ejqmwpwd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAloo+/AACgkQY4mL3PG3 PlpclRAApqZa90/m0kQpiUth/qK8Hrm8qHtOpjxkIADjQE7QTV0GAADVinLgtMBw AA5alEs2YbZQW0W+UIYeuFu4eoaVHa4qCKbvzr3sf8gQ9acsrxA10LR92cXzLt57 W5BCptHlkqZGMnbKz5TKCWhytkpcw8WdhzB9s/OTEM57fCsI+lKsCW9P2CFinh2b Kc2QTNtFU71So2yI0bGY3tC2QRgIU5KeJeKtSem6ivj01i6iyYSrZ7xVUHzyELB5 EZx6V9IO1KOZYJBvMwaNVPc9wUspOu9adJpakM2cRqdaYhFOrXyPk3hmDvFCi2Ua Hj25jdh4lWreLLgSG/aVKk0B7GCDiIhvF834IyEYRvgtZsvvyy25fs6//RWeAH6/ ZCSRri5SQ522DUpdxnwWTJkPRbuga4PRydm+WLV6sXuw6H4WDmGmyzPzsW+q2Ko0 vJiYoH4vWe7w2Ks58+jT7fqYXYw23FlLHZyryimPTQ7vtkPJeR72Lks21KojiTOl jvLm5y8uRXcWxPHTi0ZyeuyqoYg7f1wQfkijXEAN5x6HyXoiSL5Bj2RvlEzncVZL HRDjmVxwPBelDoTBX4Xt28QEGb94YP6jpLIjrk2kmhcNyrY9Ma+NuPuLeACRgivK iZ56FdmRHDoYq9hykMcn+6baCCle8T/pmI/rykavQs/9E8vu3AQ= =6Ivs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ptwwuo37ejqmwpwd-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 08:32:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B1CE80273 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:32:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E587C467 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:32:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 834F2E80272; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:32:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FE0E80271 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:32:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5989C7C465; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:32:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id 917751DB00; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:32:32 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:32:32 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Cy Schubert Cc: Cy Schubert , gjb@freebsd.org, "Pokala, Ravi" , ghapiro@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "cem@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171207083232.x4iqrli74wgygcry@ivaldir.net> References: <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com> <201712070348.vB73mesl095194@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i7uae3qclp3wph5d" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201712070348.vB73mesl095194@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 08:32:33 -0000 --i7uae3qclp3wph5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 07:48:40PM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert= =20 > writes: > > In message , "Pokala,= =20 > > Ravi" w > > rites: > > > So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them selec= t one" > > ? > > > > Yes. >=20 > Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be=20 > satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire= =20 > to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.) There is a knob already not to build it WITHOUT_DMAGENT >=20 > Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months.= =20 > (I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time= =20 > has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA = is=20 > the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the= =20 > user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period= =20 > of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and= =20 > should be a good compromise for all. >=20 > As gjb@ has been working toward packaged base, would it not be a good tim= e=20 > for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages? >=20 > Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Cheers, > Cy Schubert > FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org >=20 > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --i7uae3qclp3wph5d Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAloo/KAACgkQY4mL3PG3 PloJ/RAAqDT3GGvWWgzmabeVfDfTs/VDwW7eXkMBoAqQgrB1EuCxX0T+UKoaQDE1 AFK50jewgOCtLiBOg2zE0QTm38Ca7L8aok9GUPXq/NFFHIzV0dbKm00wAd5tRYfK ZOK3Q5QuFm64ul8XxBy5G3lgDjOvGBCaXHdgGc+h0/bZPQJFbDK06LW2jxUVuIzT wCKy4H+AQj0BhozKDmAC9B0ilb8quw31udB0KIxdY/JBz7Mft1qMg1OSVo15Vc7T CT58wvwJkQqaHBiiyTsThZ1PfHaISzkJc+PVudsDC35sZH6WSNjszUYjxKnxGA8o Clg+Eec8uJpQIpVRkkDXHVUJA8Xgu9kv7Q8PF9Yqms/1UC4mtSLK4CBpe2xKN4hL 4ZF1flFX18iMKEBVzTb6zR27HKWO4deAw59hoycGvFq7IHYxQXcyXrwAY91C0I/q 8EU+JrABb14RmsTj7auwrxBCXz+4G/UQOZg3J32UIXUGVLfz28ORqWerBaowz+i5 lqqACl5qM0/KZ9bekoAJMeFah2UP2galzxU2pxp6T37lMjHJiwNX08MJx0nGBlzZ UPf0C/SLseQ2klxkp6+6Wo+buI8x2nFRFCEKxlBtSC2NPUcRClakcs6M1X3wYD5n k5ehJo8MtuID2XndLIkKm58/WmvMl35evY4vi+E07QllvdvqD7E= =L95R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --i7uae3qclp3wph5d-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 09:22:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA22E814B5 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB25B7E30A for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EA8B1E814B3; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA426E814B2 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96BCD7E307; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1352739B; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB79M4qE072482 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:04 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB79M2th072481; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:22:02 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: mike@karels.net cc: Cy Schubert , "cem@freebsd.org" , gjb@freebsd.org, "Pokala, Ravi" , ghapiro@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Cy Schubert Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? In-reply-to: <201712070416.vB74GhD8050840@mail.karels.net> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201712070416.vB74GhD8050840@mail.karels.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <72479.1512638522.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 09:22:02 +0000 Message-ID: <72480.1512638522@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 09:22:30 -0000 -------- In message <201712070416.vB74GhD8050840@mail.karels.net>, Mike Karels writes: >> ... A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the >> user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period >> of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and >> should be a good compromise for all. > >Without specifying a mechanism, I agree that providing a menu would be >good. I don't think it should time out. The majority of installed FreeBSD systems would never see a menu in bsdinstaller(8). We should talk about what "make release" does, because that is the common basis for almost all install methods of FreeBSD: bsdinstall(8), nanobsd(8), diskless(8), jail(8) etc. etc. Cron(8) and periodic(8) need local delivery to work, so the plain "make release" should install dma(8) so local delivery works. I don't care if bsdinstall(8) offers MTA configuration menus or not, and that decision or lack thereof should not hold up replacing sendmail(8) with dma(8). And good riddance to sendmail(8): Life is too short for sendmail.cf Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 10:10:10 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C58E82600 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 10:10:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vmagerya@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com (mail-wm0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E2CC800A9 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 10:10:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vmagerya@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id l141so12025253wmg.1 for ; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:10:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=htqv6FFQTin5uWjLQRdBg8dA01SENi6QMuB8eBEw1rQ=; b=PbrPU67Womc7cqxAHD2fgHfTQKLjXzKzFHEWr2wqcwHvvxhEoigaAcT2cq7RjnGi+F datAfU/5BJqp5y1KZKGptUT1F6NfXkZygNoID1J44qL4H2SXOHD1kxGGQ1pj7EGwqVJC zVZBAk050YzL+GLsitjX0pa1IhvSuBLbvdKHNX1lgYS3fXeUUetDQJt37CwVgwkiW2Ed 0zsGDhaXL+Re+9LrlCFVGb9A4iyTxCjkiXhW5/BBn9DoF5o0pE/T1MLX2AAczRa4nwuX gR3rCUn/RgPIpDJk7APXa9iPd3qKtvNFy4/bXgb/IVxOtbZMcy1ejXhyJmaJ9NxBVBou lnRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=htqv6FFQTin5uWjLQRdBg8dA01SENi6QMuB8eBEw1rQ=; b=INuyBl62TSGQqOPUaG0Y1Zv9zRFr3qT0SkGxrkBJls4ydDFMhPQUfwAUIr7ka6KCTL OcHzTyggrh1Zcr+9lwTnRgfMNyhVG2hOHWUOevGtPDiSy0XdMkO/BTxdwgDen+jjA0zT 4zLrp7j5oYtAToibvHT38n5n+1xmhJCGauAVl1cx+LCIMM+9H4Q8B8zVd78/t1WmVsmu 8P6DjF4TsXpAL/SC3lXgmuaU2QRkVYJSBeZ1kx0TgzCv9z0bb4L8ObvYVwOJmsmgbq01 F/iNcRUR7X/G63FgUiowll/H6L1MMS0eKjh/L99youBRfrxW763sIMHfsZrYENXvDK1t YHjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7FissL1MpDIQa21j6QQV/Tg4Ah0NUyNsF5YYHI+2/WKy9nbD3h dm5PI74tcNJwQo1j+IKDRbSGfw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMb0oHvEPq0C34LK0zm4aCgCQdTXguPeoYfzanvuGY742TYvqKh7enx/hn/epHUAY2e8WKPI/g== X-Received: by 10.80.187.99 with SMTP id y90mr44293635ede.154.1512641407788; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.169.227.244] (laptop_mheinze.desy.de. [131.169.227.244]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g45sm2285504eda.88.2017.12.07.02.10.07 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Dec 2017 02:10:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> From: Vitaly Magerya Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 11:08:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 10:10:10 -0000 On 12/06/2017 11:33 PM, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > by default > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > > [...] > > If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn sendmail option off by > december 15th. While I mildly welcome the replacement of sendmail with dma in base, what I really want to thank Baptiste and everyone involved for is the proper organization of this change: first a clear transition path (sendmail->dma), then a build knob to test the switch, then an advance announcement with a period for discussion, then a deprecation in the next major release, and then a complete removal after one major release. This is how it should be done. Thanks, Baptiste. It seems that too often we take this procedure for granted. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 15:32:42 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD950E8A449 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:32:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CAB688F8 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:32:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 96301E8A448; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:32:42 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C70E8A447 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:32:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 663D3688F6; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id vB7FWd4A062723; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id vB7FWb4A062722; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201712071532.vB7FWb4A062722@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? In-Reply-To: <201712070348.vB73mesl095194@slippy.cwsent.com> To: Cy Schubert Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:32:37 -0800 (PST) CC: Cy Schubert , gjb@freebsd.org, "Pokala, Ravi" , ghapiro@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "cem@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 15:32:42 -0000 > In message <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert > writes: > > In message , "Pokala, > > Ravi" w > > rites: > > > So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them select one" > > ? > > > > Yes. > > Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be > satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desire > to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.) > > Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight months. > (I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's time > has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MTA is > the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing the > user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short period > of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and > should be a good compromise for all. > > As gjb@ has been working toward packaged base, would it not be a good time > for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packages? > > Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is. Why do we not just wait for pkg base? These silly threads on "axe this" are just waisting time that should be spent on getting pkg base done and then these issues become pretty much a /dev/null. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 16:05:11 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0771E8B59F for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4D86B48B for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9AA94E8B59E; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:05:11 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4DEE8B59D for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F039B6B48A; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:05:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id vB7G59h7062861; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:05:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id vB7G58ek062860; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> To: Baptiste Daroussin Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:05:08 -0800 (PST) CC: arch@freebsd.org, gshapiro@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 16:05:11 -0000 > Hi all, > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > by default Thats not proper by procedure, FreeBSD 12.0 needs to have a binary that spits out a "This program is depricated and well be removed in the next release", that would include all programs that are part of sendmail. > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 if you set WITHOUT_SENDMAIL in 12.- it is removed from 12.0 release, so if your intent is to "remove" it in 13 you need to change when you set WITHOUT_SENDMAIL to 13.0 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the fact it > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: ldap > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendmail port. I suspect that less than 1% of FreeBSD users are "entreprised(sp) grade" so the argument that our users need ldap is just a strawman. The fact that you use dma(8) to replace it only reinforces that fact. It is bad that sendmail has way to many compile time options and that many of those options need stuff not in base to make work, but that is the state of software spaghetti. > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of sendmail. Again, strawman, that use case is I am fairly sure a very small one. > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > > We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a configuration file > understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the setuid > binary capsicumized. > > dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventing its > usage in real life situations: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=208263 That bug is still open???? > > I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full featured > mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users and non > sendmail users. > > If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn sendmail option off by > december 15th. Strong opinion expressed, procedure is not being followed by this request, hence I would say no to this request as worded. Further more this request appears to be biased on the idea that our users need ldap in sendmail and I just do not see that as a truth. And even further more it appears as if the proposed replacement has open bugzilla reports that proclude it from even simple operation using .forward files. And my final point, the whole sendmail/dma issue goes to /dev/null if we had pkg base working. So lets stop wasting time talking about culling little parts of BSD out and get to spending that time on helping get pkg base done. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 16:11:03 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0BAE8B775 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A1A6B7AA for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 73FF7E8B774; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:11:03 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A84E8B773 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AE896B7A9; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id 703285966; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:11:02 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 17:11:02 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Cy Schubert , "cem@freebsd.org" , gjb@freebsd.org, "Pokala, Ravi" , ghapiro@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Cy Schubert Subject: Re: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171207161102.cy4d3y6a2qm6w74f@ivaldir.net> References: <201712070348.vB73mesl095194@slippy.cwsent.com> <201712071532.vB7FWb4A062722@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bwltqmbjuauk2qsm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201712071532.vB7FWb4A062722@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 16:11:03 -0000 --bwltqmbjuauk2qsm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 07:32:37AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > In message <201712070251.vB72p58k054508@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert= =20 > > writes: > > > In message , "Pokal= a,=20 > > > Ravi" w > > > rites: > > > > So less "no dma(8)", and more "no default MTA at all; make them sel= ect one" > > > ? > > > > > > Yes. > >=20 > > Thinking about this further and softening my position a little, I'd be= =20 > > satisfied with a knob to not build dma in base at all. (Though the desi= re=20 > > to remove bloat I prefer not to replace when something is removed.) > >=20 > > Upline sendmail hasn't been updated for a a year and almost eight month= s.=20 > > (I had misgivings of the sale.) Having said that, I think sendmail's ti= me=20 > > has come however I'm not convinced replacing it with another default MT= A is=20 > > the solution. A stub like pkg that could install a package, providing t= he=20 > > user with a list to choose from, possibly timing out after a short peri= od=20 > > of time to install the dma pkg (or port) makes the most sense to me and= =20 > > should be a good compromise for all. > >=20 > > As gjb@ has been working toward packaged base, would it not be a good t= ime=20 > > for the MTA replacement project to consider relying on dma ports/packag= es? > >=20 > > Ports/packages are just as much FreeBSD as base is. >=20 > Why do we not just wait for pkg base? =20 >=20 > These silly threads on "axe this" are just waisting time that should be > spent on getting pkg base done and then these issues become pretty much > a /dev/null. >=20 First this is totally unrelated. Second pkg base is very far from being ready, lots of work is needed to get= it ready for users, and this thread is not taking time at all from the time sp= ent on getting pkg base. Have you noticed the sender of this request is also on= e who have spent a lot of time in packaging base? I can tell you these issues won't become pretty much a /dev/null once packa= ging base is there. In particular in the case of sendmail, it can btw actually s= ave time on packaging base, but that is another story... It would be nice to not call others work silly, you are the first to ask for people to actually follow a deprecation procedure and when they do you call= it "silly"? Bapt --bwltqmbjuauk2qsm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAlopaBMACgkQY4mL3PG3 PlqXAg/+NkKxeNUu6qMFil2gNn0HrrEjFs6XZNto/c32dsps9aipC8S0A2N1dPl2 m7PF/SgvFkjUrUDJbwh+tpo0uDJg36a/RiYI1+gxCdTzUQfny8q0FmwAS85VCxfF EPEucbgfWh/MKsIrVhBiymoOQMqtYy933ScdMGeds7cdWOHuSEFrn5Ryyyk3bAkw Z4vjc/Vttk57Q4z8hs9gMYLq9iD337NcJsq4fS+1b/fClfIpZP1kLWSbEUJXsbCc fuyWBihCfyP5t5bUjGr77n06Doun2af+e1caMvXtAt3iJvO5vhVmheDH9V9R3PYu +xfT3KgpqnAmtpNF0dDOofAUWviRbORnEKf2ggd16VlaIU35+BrwmN1Zau0uGVOt IszMmaMutvJp0RdzX4+q9TOxzGfamMgxgR0ojdVGk7nFqxGMHi3QkdqNE3nu3+Ub MJ4L0bRy1kyCEnhseAnEZw+dqi7JiVK0a1nkTW5ExBKOnJvJQ1/lvw/rZCkUSnrq SOABFnU1kxThecFuzZO1mrJPuNLC2TYJuxYxUQDo9pWytqNVOfgarN+ln+/i+732 UXerOnTMUYLfZ27LVveGlj/oYGJcypmg+/NdwCI9hH3vAqY3M+dCnP7jGZHQxHY4 hs4xkiv+fg9THUtuEoAun5ItmmFv0Pcr9A3tVrh8vQ4dTOKr1LA= =0H2O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bwltqmbjuauk2qsm-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 16:19:51 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED69E8BA53 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1A26BD4D for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C7BB7E8BA52; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7694E8BA51 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FDD66BD4C; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id 9EA8F5C77; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:19:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 17:19:49 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: arch@freebsd.org, gshapiro@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171207161949.sijvvsczlbgbhego@ivaldir.net> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kt6z523agi5okt63" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 16:19:52 -0000 --kt6z523agi5okt63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 08:05:08AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > Hi all, > >=20 > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in bas= e. > >=20 > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT= _SENDMAIL > > by default >=20 > Thats not proper by procedure, FreeBSD 12.0 needs to have a binary that > spits out a > "This program is depricated and well be removed in the next release", > that would include all programs that are part of sendmail. Except we are replacing the program with another, not entirely removed it, = so for end users installing freebsd and using it by default the functionnality would be the same. Otherwise, clang intoduction has been violating that rule as well for examp= le >=20 > >=20 > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 >=20 > if you set WITHOUT_SENDMAIL in 12.- it is removed from 12.0 release, > so if your intent is to "remove" it in 13 you need to change when > you set WITHOUT_SENDMAIL to 13.0 by removal I mean svn rm >=20 > >=20 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the= fact it > > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require:= ldap > > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendm= ail port. >=20 > I suspect that less than 1% of FreeBSD users are "entreprised(sp) grade" = so the > argument that our users need ldap is just a strawman. The fact that you > use dma(8) to replace it only reinforces that fact. >=20 > It is bad that sendmail has way to many compile time options and that many > of those options need stuff not in base to make work, but that is the sta= te > of software spaghetti. Exactly my arguments and why we do not need a full featured MTA in base, but rather something like dma(8) which fits 99% of the usage of the users. >=20 > > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of s= endmail. > Again, strawman, that use case is I am fairly sure a very small one. Which is what I'm saying >=20 > >=20 > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > >=20 > > We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a configurati= on file > > understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the set= uid > > binary capsicumized. > >=20 > > dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventin= g its > > usage in real life situations: > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D208263 >=20 > That bug is still open???? =20 Have you checked it? it is because I'm waiting for users to validate, I hav= en't closed it until I got the full feedback. >=20 > >=20 > > I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full fe= atured > > mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users = and non > > sendmail users. > >=20 > > If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn sendmail option = off by > > december 15th. >=20 > Strong opinion expressed, procedure is not being followed by this request, > hence I would say no to this request as worded. > Further more this request appears to be biased on the idea that our users > need ldap in sendmail and I just do not see that as a truth. =20 > And even further more it appears as if the proposed replacement has open > bugzilla reports that proclude it from even simple operation using > .forward files. If that is needed we can implement it > And my final point, the whole sendmail/dma issue goes to /dev/null if we > had pkg base working. So lets stop wasting time talking about culling > little parts of BSD out and get to spending that time on helping get > pkg base done. Said by someone not working on packaging base to someone actually working on packaging base... Bapt --kt6z523agi5okt63 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAlopaiUACgkQY4mL3PG3 Plr0sxAA3kPS4Jm3zVrog115HiS4FVdvA562YVsgwOXRpudxG2Z5Dpdhb6BDEO51 uPaBo/f58mukX8GAiFkZmdyrTiZM80vNLQO3mAogGJqjiQQ+KLy0ih15aKvCKZcE QSyH90ruVr21F8J0gU6SUbpINfh0IxG8MziFmWBAjpSR6jkxDqr3D1lpYK950C3o 7S3CyggpNEo+GTPslEfKsB7Ovh/SX5AqYPGsdFylRITvUecmajGEmPdaZE1kPhmN vTNwy6wIHpQ5if1b5fakxTuF3eUm+CgiYDB7p362dgIKDqlsOeu8eB0GRqMTL/HF fQHEoNZov0Fxr7JofrikO4O1diPf4fC+JT2DdEi36lvvQQiSDLsnwNiHZjQUDaCX zlct1WOFP2BXMazEhoAUXgGvsSJt7am9gkndY+7lNUf1JRHWo75cSCPBiMq76MFS qXqehML1wEYIFfEeUcHSjVtkvMbF5jiHzmgv+p5gi++odLtSnkEObvbxE3scjuev ePLjryWSLA+m9mTx4ewK7/2cktByNUTVPj69QgTlEyJDN6+hz7He3iwPAyRadG44 8oxrVk/qXVK5BXx7NEw/pQV43f4vD6s4Ix2AY3A1oLPRxO1yttcL8uWr8JbmK+wi DGnSSdf759fRmTGQ6iUAfoDxBqzqtlZDFh25fqWtgYVugwvGRDg= =t7n8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kt6z523agi5okt63-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 16:49:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F27CE8C1FC for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AD96CD49 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 0813FE8C1FB; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:49:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BEBE8C1FA for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C64256CD47 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 16:49:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 68so15812046ite.4 for ; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 08:49:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=YWLS8d8vtSYEU40Q7hIhoccoOr2Znhpzb9KGfcauDjA=; b=JLOfc7AY/PTQ94W64APY8xIh9d6THwmRwKm+xRvp5AlAA1RT+Ks/Swr6lnRLTVdyuu wy5y9uATeQy5lewQCuLMvVn7e+UOFRjApl6tv23ebtuUNKhXJeaONWuJMhCeWItSMRF7 isy/qdh0108OILzF92SYnVF2QVzkK4EAAc638gplJmWUIsDuYDq7NLPQAVur1hQU/Gqf 5kCvhJULBl1Q4SbC7caxadG1k4pXBYFqZygpOGvM6591lqiw9cd1OMJShgtKwO7Vrchy EpbxLywKU7pE3Vnzkw+9raGJfBjxp153JMP0enYKC609FK3QcRKh4zPksyilkpME9Tu9 PZ9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YWLS8d8vtSYEU40Q7hIhoccoOr2Znhpzb9KGfcauDjA=; b=QBzS/CEVvffvhCfljf78+MrANuCpxmC64TJAN/6CncVb79rr0dxnjD4TpV9UH8ggwX kJJEQO7ZCN1FvnyUgyCLmEgJaH+JOLcu4EFhd54AouSN3gLOgKH6+0vzaHGB2eTPOTmx 4YYbbHB1p2ecXafeFWN6lVSUmbHnIKTHYGAaATMeJsoooE5d/n4ZWVdWp9DEa9+0XARe f+0cVk6RhOk4Ond5umeWzKXEn2qxvMlc6rKB2zd14uUYQRwxfnu+xajg2EoeD/0NUDc7 dd9Uf1wZvM0XPN0YLdzaKPo+kRqDGE6x5M0FfKWN/ptk+CWeQqIlAAI3aHA2QXaL9TYj G29A== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7IwN9g5UgSDgmk9EE4ALYPQ3vH8JGbj2GyNMlB6UwE2AgV5lWX xwsHnflZ++W8XYhA+vyIJ6kEmAjqN3cAoAIvKgLAnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYz50OFHsym5HD1oCDTlAc2ihNZ3ah3qlep+IOfOcwomoTtj4TmpGw4L1VWFIvf8orul0JS0S8kODiXhpyCJvQ= X-Received: by 10.107.104.18 with SMTP id d18mr35370938ioc.136.1512665371867; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 08:49:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 08:49:31 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [107.77.197.129] In-Reply-To: <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:49:31 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: znQ2rA45h4bF8KEP1CqdJdLzNL8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Baptiste Daroussin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , gshapiro@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 16:49:33 -0000 On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built > WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > > by default > > Thats not proper by procedure, FreeBSD 12.0 needs to have a binary that > spits out a > "This program is depricated and well be removed in the next release", > that would include all programs that are part of sendmail. > OK. We've never actually implemented this policy in the past. You keep saying it's the policy, but can you point to any program we've ever done this with? Ever? And for sendmail this is especially stupid because it runs hundreds or thousands of times a day on any given server with its output directed no place useful. This is a stupid thing to ask. > > > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > > if you set WITHOUT_SENDMAIL in 12.- it is removed from 12.0 release, > so if your intent is to "remove" it in 13 you need to change when > you set WITHOUT_SENDMAIL to 13.0 It's still buildable. And this is saying, effectively, with our long release cycles we can't deorbit anything in less than 5 years, which is also insane. That's a stupid policy and one that will, in reality, be ignored and you'll send angry emails about rather than one that would be helpful to our project or our users. It's also something project has never ever been able to achieve in the past. To this day, we're not printing a warning that gcc is deprecated on every invocation (which would be F****ing stupid), and we absolutely are going to remove it before 12. > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the > fact it > > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: > ldap > > support for example, check the number of options available in the > sendmail port. > > I suspect that less than 1% of FreeBSD users are "entreprised(sp) grade" > so the > argument that our users need ldap is just a strawman. The fact that you > use dma(8) to replace it only reinforces that fact. > > It is bad that sendmail has way to many compile time options and that many > of those options need stuff not in base to make work, but that is the state > of software spaghetti. It's bad that sendmail is such a security nightmare too. We should likely have turned it off years ago, so I applaud this move. > > > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of > sendmail. > Again, strawman, that use case is I am fairly sure a very small one. Actually, they likely would... Better to have a small, secure, simple mailer in the base, and those with enterprise needs install the sendmail port. This would be a better state than the current state of affairs that expose more users to sendmail's security holes. So, yes, our users would be better off with sendmail as a port. Not really a strawman at all since part of the argument is that all users are better off w/o sendmail, or with sendmail as a port. > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > > > > We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a > configuration file > > understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the > setuid > > binary capsicumized. > > > > dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventing > its > > usage in real life situations: > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=208263 > > That bug is still open???? > > > > > I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full > featured > > mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users > and non > > sendmail users. > > > > If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn sendmail option > off by > > december 15th. > > Strong opinion expressed, procedure is not being followed by this request, > hence I would say no to this request as worded. > Further more this request appears to be biased on the idea that our users > need ldap in sendmail and I just do not see that as a truth. > And even further more it appears as if the proposed replacement has open > bugzilla reports that proclude it from even simple operation using > .forward files. > And my final point, the whole sendmail/dma issue goes to /dev/null if we > had pkg base working. So lets stop wasting time talking about culling > little parts of BSD out and get to spending that time on helping get > pkg base done. Except it doesn't go to /dev/null. We have a higher security officer burden with it in the base than as a port-based package. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 7 22:07:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66E1E9295F for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A235678B2E for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9EB9AE9295E; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:07:56 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E610E9295D for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6531578B2D; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 22:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t1so626393ite.5; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 14:07:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VOAQQ4IluOeJKLRFioy6eF5CzAWT3/XzY55f/Ua7cV8=; b=WltKe3MeWWhQU1ug73q8TwzkdcsbSWlW0XxsAX4BCZqXT0vVWWASpJ1lGfeN0JWIpW D+/3JpyQXBYM3Njr8npaj8umme2RCZlHrFeBXZlCPU4aSkAg/Ko7e6mH5wF6rTsj/0Cj h0z+O3QplWGOMZ8eh1JtOWFRExICrYtvanplB2sQ7VaCS/AkFDie9WFI0rJC5T9mn9JF m7vhiPg2jmgdm14HY+6ovNPOp+UHUDQMLttTzSjMus5OTL4istLJ/cyhl9v8dZdw745W 5DjFMKAJVCaKuO8HMoWOvslc0ZDmAzP5ln93SDbth0snGLOGDPtFoXIJIxDf3Bg19OMI lB7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VOAQQ4IluOeJKLRFioy6eF5CzAWT3/XzY55f/Ua7cV8=; b=H3JtG7LMGl0XuBFKpTUcAlb4J6e9D2rZcWyYs1leGbf2pO8+v3+eicKJO4hg/X6bbP ylhiK99EQQBi7SKwGGDvLV2bgrc0ajPBAAFF2OVnfqNqkYNO1i2QyGxllOA8jFsHdy7J BA4i0cYQua2tjE/dJ6bOkBeikElz7iK7MSbi1l5ZrqlgRs35V5rGYFlEYbk7cRTmaW76 astZNuZK3lYFL/etIybntNUk5lDWFYAoGG+WjZ6nQMeanJ667kdPj+ofFE1hlYPaTX2b NyHBqaFf6GTMVI8RKovI1ayoJ2vswXPKIyAWsoJxj4LnEDcdbgcDnIEi1VO9mf4hFl0j dE2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mI+sDBgDh4GF3lxDU08PNe8mzR9+0vhqrilQBLJP8SwGRPZ6gLt daO4jkZNsASqb8TWz9Q01RxCCsirf5X13QntA2w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbXCMgTzvtsPATHZMctF25TqB3HwK5RFA/68437tEUBLAlkf8IWaU20LUz5Kk6ITru001jm/Oi1V6wBng/2Hdc= X-Received: by 10.107.8.42 with SMTP id 42mr17977004ioi.206.1512684475479; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 14:07:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.36.10 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:07:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Xin LI Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:07:54 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: Warner Losh Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Baptiste Daroussin , gshapiro@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 22:07:56 -0000 Just picking a random message from the thread. On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > It's bad that sendmail is such a security nightmare too. We should likely I don't think there is fact that backs this claim (I don't personally have strong opinion on Sendmail removal though). Sendmail might well be a nightmare a decade ago but not anymore. The last security advisory for sendmail was in 2014 for a CVSS 1.9 issue, and before that the last major issue was in 2010. Also count me in the "no dma" campaign too: it worked poorly for the cluster during our dogfood and there were multiple RFC violations the last time we tried it. I might be wrong, but I think it also does not support SSL/TLS properly (e.g. no validation of server certificate, etc.), by the way, and I don't think it have implemented proper queue either. Cheers, From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 8 07:47:00 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7B6E9CCE8 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:47:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevlo@ns.kevlo.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267B667E19 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:47:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevlo@ns.kevlo.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 22CCBE9CCE7; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:47:00 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2276CE9CCE6 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:47:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevlo@ns.kevlo.org) Received: from ns.kevlo.org (220-135-115-6.HINET-IP.hinet.net [220.135.115.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ns.kevlo.org", Issuer "ns.kevlo.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0CB67E18; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 07:46:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevlo@ns.kevlo.org) Received: from ns.kevlo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.kevlo.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB87iwo1002060 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:44:59 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from kevlo@ns.kevlo.org) Received: (from kevlo@localhost) by ns.kevlo.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB87iwee002059; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:44:58 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from kevlo) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:44:56 +0800 From: Kevin Lo To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171208074456.GA2035@ns.kevlo.org> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.0 (2017-02-23) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 07:47:00 -0000 On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 11:33:41PM +0100, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL > by default > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the fact it > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: ldap > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendmail port. > Hmm, dma(8) says: dma is not intended as a replacement for real, big MTAs like sendmail(8) or postfix(1). I seriously don't think dma(8) is a full featured mta. I would recommend OpenSMTPD. OpenSMTPD makes smtp easier to implement and manage and more secure. > Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of sendmail. > > The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: > relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > > We have dma(8) which is way smaller than sendmail(8) have a configuration file > understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) and have the setuid > binary capsicumized. > > dma(8) has been modified to fix issues reported by clusteradm preventing its > usage in real life situations: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=208263 > > I think only providing dma(8) by default and let users choose a full featured > mta via packages is a good solution and better for both sendmail users and non > sendmail users. Why not vice versa? > If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn sendmail option off by > december 15th. > > Best regards, > Bapt Kevin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 8 08:44:16 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CF2E9DF8F for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D89698D9 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id A01A2E9DF8E; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:44:16 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC87E9DF8D for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ECB1698D8; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1235) id BA4A312B0A; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 08:44:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 09:44:15 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Kevin Lo Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, gshapiro@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171208084415.5c77xlucmunh2azp@ivaldir.net> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <20171208074456.GA2035@ns.kevlo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="b2wep3vwxtoukow5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171208074456.GA2035@ns.kevlo.org> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171027 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 08:44:16 -0000 --b2wep3vwxtoukow5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 03:44:56PM +0800, Kevin Lo wrote: > On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 11:33:41PM +0100, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > Hi all, > >=20 > > I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in bas= e. > >=20 > > Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT= _SENDMAIL > > by default > >=20 > > removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 > >=20 > > sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the= fact it > > does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require:= ldap > > support for example, check the number of options available in the sendm= ail port. > >=20 >=20 > Hmm, dma(8) says:=20 >=20 > dma is not intended as a replacement for real, big MTAs like sendmail(8) > or postfix(1). >=20 > I seriously don't think dma(8) is a full featured mta. I would recommend= =20 > OpenSMTPD. OpenSMTPD makes smtp easier to implement and manage and more > secure. >=20 It is not and that is the main point of it, what is really required in base= it delivering mails to /var/mail and relay them to a real mail server. when one needs a full featured mta then he can install opensmtpd, postfix, exim, sen= dmail =66rom ports Best regards, Bapt --b2wep3vwxtoukow5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAloqUNwACgkQY4mL3PG3 PlpFPxAA0BGFgIs/BBMGUBu0OFxYQXM22yLu396CCk1LK9wkmPlp9xeatIlzVi4C CjOdFauRYCyojOn8cmtG382x/mI6t9kqggnH7A2+nf154ugEAZjR6ChoPxMrww6V HPEuPvfePAXwvBIQ+dFREsxYDJN+QCVa+tYC4ELVanrJhRpKc2co86d6K/iu401Z 9DZxP+IaK4URVc2S85xCmSlV3AGZttrUpYXykF0WdkSBVgTdpqsS0QI0jvq4n2Ig epw72XwAJhm3dpdJ+gLU4I+irBPKt3Vp99rO3YOLMjSMOOg0HMTqhvLdIlBLeTEr +kIR1Eow0Xj9IO792RPstA1Sc3bGhpoSVTD7A305DTVmVPqeA0kYhLmvhBRRjuLk hlE0mFjWcF4/PkBIDezOuff6ULaYZtUe5Myy6cFa1f0pRyoSYZLkGIoFASNe/fCg ALB67NCT28Hcn0lZo2K4KpotCYpGLuFQAHHdH1mD2P65ZtgQtr9EAvdLU7h3u9eV nmasUPbu2odfren1uc6BW+FOX/lJuoF/8esfsI15ZWTUPZATJLBq7z4fkTLrDtlI Po2xXZ61B1M5UG9wFwDZg1ZM3JkiEbQfLsEKR3SLK7U5+po9e+v1dp6sXt/isI/P C22s+2JiASDEYbTZCvKliozEN3lZVPJOUaF1ONEX7OgNPCJLBIU= =r3Ap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --b2wep3vwxtoukow5-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Dec 9 17:00:19 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD68AE91601 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:00:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vps1.elischer.org", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA5986CA9D for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:00:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from Julian-MBP3.local (115-166-31-52.dyn.iinet.net.au [115.166.31.52]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id vB9H07wL025009 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 09:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> From: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <9013f916-b431-fa8b-81d1-50f380d10aa1@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:00:01 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:00:20 -0000 Hi all, I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of the BSD kernel in base. Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_KERNEL by default removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 The kernel in base it not really usable as a full featured OS due to the fact it does not support anything an entreprised grade Linux setup would require: Linux resource sharing support for example, check the number of options available in a Linux kernel config. Users for that use case would be better served by the redhat version of the kernel. The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of the OS: running Posix system calls. We have Ubuntu for average users with a configuration file understandable by most users (yet that is subjecttive) I think only providing a copy of Ubuntu by default and let users choose a full featured kernel is a good solution and better for both FreeBSD users and non FreeBSD users. If noone express a strong opinion by then, I will turn BSD kernle option off by december 15th. Best regards, Julian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Dec 9 17:09:04 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4CEFE91C01 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:09:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vps1.elischer.org", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8135D6D0FB for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:09:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from Julian-MBP3.local (115-166-31-52.dyn.iinet.net.au [115.166.31.52]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id vB9H8tx1025056 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 09:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> From: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <0f11ca9a-c28f-6667-9509-11a1ba05ff98@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:08:49 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:09:04 -0000 On 7/12/17 12:16 pm, Don Lewis wrote: > On 6 Dec, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I would like to propose the deprecation then removal of sendmail in base. >> >> Deprecation will happen in the form of FreeBSD 12.0 being built WITHOUT_SENDMAIL >> by default >> >> removal would happen in FreeBSD 13.0 >> >> sendmail in base it not really usable as a full featured mta due to the fact it >> does not support anything an entreprised grade mta setup would require: ldap >> support for example, check the number of options available in the sendmail port. >> >> Users for that use case would be better served by the port version of sendmail. >> >> The other kind of users are the one using the default setup of sendmail: >> relaying emails externally and deliver locally. > I've found that sendmail in base meets my needs. I haven't had the need > for any of the features that are only available in the port. "me too". How about you just leave it there until we have pkgbase by default and then just swap it. I have enough scripts and configs around that I don't want to revisit to fix all this. I hardly remember how they work.. They've been untouched except for upgrades for about a decade. > It doesn't looks like dma(8) would be useful for me on my primary > machines since I basically need its inverse. It would only be useful > on my headless machines to forward cron-generated mail to my mail > server. I don't do any local delivery of mail to mbox files. My mail > server delivers all mail to cyrus-imapd via lmtp, which is a fairly > simple tweak to the sendmail.mc file. I also have a couple of mail > relays that do some smart routing and spam filtering. > > One thing that is comes with sendmail in base but is missing from the > sendmail port is all the handy stuff in /etc/mail, such as the > freebsd.mc template, the aliases file, and the Makefile which makes > maintaining the config files and the .db files much easier. Without > this stuff, setting up the sendmail port would be much more > intimidating. amen a sendmail-freebsd port maybe? > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Dec 9 17:56:34 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6026EE92B42 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:56:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsk@gsp.org) Received: from taos.firemountain.net (taos.firemountain.net [207.114.3.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "taos.firemountain.net", Issuer "taos.firemountain.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 333E06E872 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:56:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsk@gsp.org) Received: from gsp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by taos.firemountain.net (8.15.1/8.14.9) with SMTP id vB9HZfsC032384 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 12:35:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 12:35:41 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Sendmail deprecation ? Message-ID: <20171209173541.GA733@gsp.org> References: <20171206223341.iz3vj4zz2igqczy7@ivaldir.net> <201712071605.vB7G58ek062860@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:56:34 -0000 On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 02:07:54PM -0800, Xin LI wrote: > On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > It's bad that sendmail is such a security nightmare too. We should likely > > I don't think there is fact that backs this claim (I don't personally > have strong opinion on Sendmail removal though). Sendmail might well > be a nightmare a decade ago but not anymore. I've been running sendmail since it existed, in all kinds of environments. (And let me note that I've spent substantial time with the common open-source alternatives to it as well, so I have a great deal of direct experience to draw on for comparisons.) It is most emphatically NOT a security nightmare. It's had its issues, but no serious ones in years. [1] And over the past decade, it's had a number of features slowly/carefully added that have gradually hardened it against attacks and abuse. (greet_pause, for one.) There have also been similarly-gradual improvements in its configuration: almost nobody edits .cf files any more. (Instead, they build them from .mc files. A substantial library of these is supplied and many more are just an Internet search away.) We are not at the point where it's a trivial install-configure-run piece of software. But we are NOT going to be at that point with sendmail or any other MTA in the forseeable future because not only are the basic operational requirements of an MTA complex, the contemporary environment it has to run in is best described as "constant attacks and abuse interrupted sporadically by actual real live mail". Anyone who doesn't have at least a modest working knowledge of all this shouldn't be running an Internet-facing MTA, whether it's sendmail or postfix or exim or anything else. (It's fine to run simple instances that forward or are internal-only. That's a much lower bar to clear in terms of the required knowledge.) Sendmail is actively supported (by its developers and by the community). And if you read the release notes that are issued with source updates, you'll find that they tend to eschew many releases in favor of a few. That is, they bundle many ports, fixes, updates, features, etc., into each release. This works out well for two reasons: first, they're really good at it. Second, it alleviates the need to upgrade production systems on a frequent basis. So don't be misled by the infrequency of version updates. One of the other very handy things about sendmail is that it ships with a sensible default configuration. This in turn tends to forestall a lot of bad things that could happen but probably won't. Note that this configuration isn't optimized or customized: but that's the point. (Note also, as I recently pointed out to someone, that when you attempt to optimize your MTA you need to be careful that you're not also optimizing it for your adversaries.) My recommendation is to (1) leave sendmail in place (2) track, as much as possible, the default configuration published by its authors and (3) consider making it clear at installation time what a smarthost is and why someone might want to use it. (Briefly, a "smarthost" is one with an MTA that is fully configured, knows how to deliver amil across the Internet, etc. Non-smarthosts have a barebones configuration that renders them unable to do anything other than (a) accept mail and (b) throw it at the smarthost. This is the preferred arranagement for a lot of end-user systems, and for many server environments: if you have N systems, configure N-1 to throw all the system-generated mail at the smarthost, and then configure the smarthost to do something useful with it.) ---rsk [1] Let me also observe that our collective perception of what a "serious issue" encompasses has shifted over time. Some of the issues that would have caused an entire IT operation to immediately shut down are now accepted as routine. And some of the issues that we once ignored as trivial are now considered show-stoppers. So it's useful when, let's say, looking at the sendmail bug exploited by the Morris worm and assessing its severity, to consider the context.