From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jan 26 17:31:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2A21F4F78 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 17:31:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 485KgM55vFz4J69; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 17:31:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 00QHVcek043954; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:31:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 00QHVbla043953; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202001261731.00QHVbla043953@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea In-Reply-To: <12807.1579989320@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:31:37 -0800 (PST) CC: Cy Schubert , "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Shivank Garg , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 485KgM55vFz4J69 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 69.59.192.140) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.79)[0.786,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.94)[0.938,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (0.13), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.07), asn: 13868(0.02), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 17:31:45 -0000 > -------- > In message <7CA80A6B-47C4-4B70-B590-01532A1D9DE4@cschubert.com>, Cy Schubert wr > ites: > > >>>How would you support vi on a 3270, a different editor maybe? > >> > >>I have run vi(1) on a 3278(-compatible) connected with SNA to an > >>Amdahl running UTS, but I have no idea how much magic were involved > >>for that to not kill the CPU=2E > >> > >>At the very least either the 3174 or the 3745 must have been involved=2E > > > >Hmm interesting. Probably 3174 firmware to make it behave less like a > >block half duplex terminal. > > Yes, very much so. > > Olivetti ran a bunch of machines, you can find them in old USENet > maps as "olive[a-z]" and some of those ran Amdahl UTS, and I used > one of those for SVR4 work at Ivrea around 1989. > > I have no idea what the actual hardware was, but it was the first > time I ever had to pipe df(1) into more(1) :-) Oh thank you for the good hard laugh Poul! Sadly for me that experience came on VMS with a show disks on a large VAX Cluster. > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jan 26 20:58:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B875B1FB78B for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:58:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mail-pl1-x644.google.com (mail-pl1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 485QFm2ZyJz4VG4 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:58:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: by mail-pl1-x644.google.com with SMTP id ay11so3011049plb.0 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:58:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=NU1elfIHEXkRIe0qyWt1MFvnZ4z+qoMjFq/+b8BPOnE=; b=sX5WgKq6CxsnJkJx9v9MGd7NXCb5hL1Djr6MlWTfzSyodde8NiR9GVBBWc5/Ql3k0/ L9zexI1FhZARs/NpptLtaoDwj9A9XSU1m0r1l+Jq+EoezdyR9HNKMTenHJmd8R39Tvre i5zQgnBvQlY1JWPsYBL+nn6lE9mw6r3pbxEHgNRKfel6XaBKhUwdhqznWZhVMYbbxc9C OcegNh3MC0N5sEBnD+NYBuUcA3cKZ2efwdhqn5gZFLq6jDJlHblLGugW2dn3fe0jwob/ X/pV8S8F21hLIFEG0bLOjNPGCzhd7xJ/0KftlE2cfRWaOv86FUzk6YDy6dpuAzgKSgj4 YJlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=NU1elfIHEXkRIe0qyWt1MFvnZ4z+qoMjFq/+b8BPOnE=; b=RQ7llYry4SEhCtUv1xrfSHmkeu21hPvi6/0kzirHC8dHEPSc0rwQK9zduFaqM3b+vx 1obzd10IsBr/QUnfshNtSc3twhC2nOqmsHMnEGn4RiEzt++pGkxmB0zG5sbML/wpzEgH WMJRfJC/D0MHDyMU9Ldu5p6X0V2b37OZ4n5I81I9AHIuFXHHETsGkEyccwHCV91vG6EL CHm5E326hpyN+xn0mBONZl0MB752wVhmrkxAjQ+2zcw2JD3wDnT3Y1PS76DU9HL6TDU4 ksL2Nx62h5gfQ84KJwOI6nzIMfxYMH0c41rNE3NkVGmXTS90WaPp6yHNNRjL5DMXcjxl y6GA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUyqR2D72e+VxD9B3X+rwhYs3hXSv66I/fLmPx3kdUONbdAEn3p 6iOE6FmtCMvF57JT0GXseNOy/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqydbVmlfODhuK71EMX5jDGTM6ulpdOBloHFbUTcwcA3W/2Vjbp7iXoqrYMQVgHoRWJ81Ichow== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7781:: with SMTP id v1mr11117773pjk.108.1580072298726; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-76-81-105-82.west.biz.rr.com (rrcs-76-81-105-82.west.biz.rr.com. [76.81.105.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y14sm13134106pfe.147.2020.01.26.12.58.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:58:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 10:58:15 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: Mike Karels cc: Ben Woods , Philip Paeps , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Ed Maste , Conrad Meyer Subject: Re: Minimum memory for ZFS (was Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts) In-Reply-To: <202001230207.00N274xO042659@mail.karels.net> Message-ID: References: <202001230207.00N274xO042659@mail.karels.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 485QFm2ZyJz4VG4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=sX5WgKq6; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jroberson@jroberson.net has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::644) smtp.mailfrom=jroberson@jroberson.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.91)[ip: (-0.64), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.05), asn: 15169(-1.79), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jroberson.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:58:21 -0000 On Wed, 22 Jan 2020, Mike Karels wrote: > I took the liberty of changing the subject line to make it stand out a > bit more. > > Ben wrote: > >> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 09:16, Mike Karels wrote: > >>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: >>> >>>>> Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall >>> partitioning >>>>> mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb >>> RAM? >>>>> >>> >>>> I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 >>> >>>> Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review >>> would >>>> be best). >>> >>> I think this needs more discussion, preferably on this list. I am not >>> convinced that systems with as little as 4 GB should use ZFS. Conventional >>> wisdom on the FreeNAS mailing list says that 8 GB is required for ZFS, >>> and FreeNAS no longer includes UFS as an option. Conrad suggested a >>> cutoff of 16 GB; I am happier with 16 GB than 4 GB as a cutoff. Also, >>> there was mention of auto-tuning for smaller systems; I don't think that >>> has materialized yet. I'm not sure how plausible that is without knowing >>> the workload. I use ZFS on a workstation/server with 64 GB that runs 4 >>> bhyve guests that do things like buildworld. ZFS wants 63 GB for arc_max; >>> needless to say, I have a tunable set to a much lower value. If tuning >>> is required, it is unclear that ZFS is a good default. >>> >>> Mike >>> > > >> Hi everyone, > >> Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > >> Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: >> msg_partitioning_zfs_help="ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB RAM" >> msg_partitioning_ufs_help="UFS is recommended if you have less than 4GB of >> RAM" > >> There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. > >> 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske >> 8GB was recommended by: mike >> 16GB was recommended by: cem I have a completely different recommendation that will take someone with some knowledge of arc and a little knowledge of VM. I am happy to provide the VM side if someone else will provide the arc side and testing. If you have a reasonable understanding of ARC I suspect this could be prototyped in a weekend. Simply put, there is no reason the arc can't spill into the page cache just as the buf cache does. If you look at the actual papers on ARC/2Q/etc. you will see that their primary advantage is in limiting the impact of scans and they only provide a few percent up to 10% performance in even contrived workloads. Simply put, there is no reason to give arc all of your memory. There is a good reason to make all of your memory available for caching however. My proposal is this, limit ARC to some reasonable fraction of memory, say 1/8th, and then do the following: On expiration from arc place the pages in a vm object associated with the device. The VM is now free to keep them or re-use them for user memory. On miss from arc check the page cache and take the pages back if they exist. On invalidation you need to invalidate the page cache. ARC already allows spilling to SSD. I don't know the particulars of the interface but we're essentially spilling to memory that can be reclaimed by the page daemon as necessary. With this change the ARC would participate reasonably and we wouldn't need to talk about minimum memory for it. We have already wasted more person-hours working around this architectural misstep than would be required to address it. If anyone would like to take this up please contact me directly as I don't always read arch@. Thanks, Jeff > >> The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some >> debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only >> systems with MORE THAN 4GB. > > I don't remember what everyone else wrote, but IIRC, Devin said that if > you use ZFS with 4 GB, you will soon end up with a dozen tunables set. > That doesn't sound like a recommendation for 4 GB. > >> As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion >> (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't prevent >> us from committing this help text now). > > Agreed, but the lack of tuning should factor into the current recommendation. > > Mike > >> Regards, >> Ben > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jan 26 22:11:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F0C1FDFB3 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:11:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 485RtS1BV3z4Z7x; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:11:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 00QMBZxf045308; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 14:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 00QMBYPo045307; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 14:11:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202001262211.00QMBYPo045307@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Minimum memory for ZFS (was Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts) In-Reply-To: To: Jeff Roberson Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 14:11:34 -0800 (PST) CC: Mike Karels , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Ben Woods , Ed Maste , Conrad Meyer , Philip Paeps X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 485RtS1BV3z4Z7x X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 69.59.192.140) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.76 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.86)[0.857,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.966,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (0.13), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.07), asn: 13868(0.02), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:11:45 -0000 > On Wed, 22 Jan 2020, Mike Karels wrote: > > > I took the liberty of changing the subject line to make it stand out a > > bit more. > > > > Ben wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 09:16, Mike Karels wrote: > > > >>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: > >>> > >>>>> Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall > >>> partitioning > >>>>> mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb > >>> RAM? > >>>>> > >>> > >>>> I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 > >>> > >>>> Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review > >>> would > >>>> be best). > >>> > >>> I think this needs more discussion, preferably on this list. I am not > >>> convinced that systems with as little as 4 GB should use ZFS. Conventional > >>> wisdom on the FreeNAS mailing list says that 8 GB is required for ZFS, > >>> and FreeNAS no longer includes UFS as an option. Conrad suggested a > >>> cutoff of 16 GB; I am happier with 16 GB than 4 GB as a cutoff. Also, > >>> there was mention of auto-tuning for smaller systems; I don't think that > >>> has materialized yet. I'm not sure how plausible that is without knowing > >>> the workload. I use ZFS on a workstation/server with 64 GB that runs 4 > >>> bhyve guests that do things like buildworld. ZFS wants 63 GB for arc_max; > >>> needless to say, I have a tunable set to a much lower value. If tuning > >>> is required, it is unclear that ZFS is a good default. > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > > > >> Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > > > >> Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: > >> msg_partitioning_zfs_help="ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB RAM" > >> msg_partitioning_ufs_help="UFS is recommended if you have less than 4GB of > >> RAM" > > > >> There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. > > > >> 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > >> 8GB was recommended by: mike > >> 16GB was recommended by: cem > > I have a completely different recommendation that will take someone with > some knowledge of arc and a little knowledge of VM. I am happy to provide > the VM side if someone else will provide the arc side and testing. If you > have a reasonable understanding of ARC I suspect this could be prototyped > in a weekend. > > Simply put, there is no reason the arc can't spill into the page cache > just as the buf cache does. If you look at the actual papers on > ARC/2Q/etc. you will see that their primary advantage is in limiting the > impact of scans and they only provide a few percent up to 10% performance > in even contrived workloads. Simply put, there is no reason to give arc > all of your memory. There is a good reason to make all of your memory > available for caching however. > > My proposal is this, limit ARC to some reasonable fraction of memory, say > 1/8th, and then do the following: > > On expiration from arc place the pages in a vm object associated with the > device. The VM is now free to keep them or re-use them for user memory. > > On miss from arc check the page cache and take the pages back if they > exist. > > On invalidation you need to invalidate the page cache. > > ARC already allows spilling to SSD. I don't know the particulars of the > interface but we're essentially spilling to memory that can be reclaimed > by the page daemon as necessary. > > With this change the ARC would participate reasonably and we wouldn't need > to talk about minimum memory for it. We have already wasted more > person-hours working around this architectural misstep than would be > required to address it. If anyone would like to take this up please > contact me directly as I don't always read arch@. I am not an expert on either, but I would be more than willing to through my work load(s) at any changes you come up with and provide feedback on how it behaves. > Thanks, > Jeff > > > > >> The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some > >> debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only > >> systems with MORE THAN 4GB. > > > > I don't remember what everyone else wrote, but IIRC, Devin said that if > > you use ZFS with 4 GB, you will soon end up with a dozen tunables set. > > That doesn't sound like a recommendation for 4 GB. > > > >> As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion > >> (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't prevent > >> us from committing this help text now). > > > > Agreed, but the lack of tuning should factor into the current recommendation. > > > > Mike > > > >> Regards, > >> Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jan 26 22:29:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E221FE4D9 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:29:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485SHD6dCrz4ZgH for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:29:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E37151FE4D8; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:29:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33831FE4D7 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:29:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 485SHC39w3z4ZgG for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:29:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.86 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ivqPO-000DVB-UM; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 01:29:34 +0300 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 01:29:34 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Jeff Roberson Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Safe Memory Reclamation feature in UMA Message-ID: <20200126222934.GN38096@zxy.spb.ru> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 485SHC39w3z4ZgG X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of slw@zxy.spb.ru has no SPF policy when checking 195.70.199.98) smtp.mailfrom=slw@zxy.spb.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.50 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zxy.spb.ru]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.71)[0.708,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.81)[0.806,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5495, ipnet:195.70.192.0/19, country:RU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.08)[asn: 5495(0.41), country: RU(0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 22:29:45 -0000 On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 08:58:23AM -1000, Jeff Roberson wrote: > For the virtual memory system I needed something that could sustain > relatively rapid frees. I have ended up with a scheme that integrates > with the allocator and uses a novel epoch/version tracking mechanism. > The pair of these gives me 3x faster performance with 1/20th the memory > overhead of our existing epoch implementation in my obviously contrived > perf test. I do not want to imply that if we replaced the network epoch Very interesting. What part of frees code patch you speedup? From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jan 28 00:56:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1F82344A1 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 00:56:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qv1-xf35.google.com (mail-qv1-xf35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4867VY41wFz4RBj for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 00:56:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id n8so5459640qvg.11 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 16:56:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=d33j8rKpky6cfN2TFnUEGJNyp0azLOUXe7rk9igci/o=; b=uLv1rxf5zu04ymYSrs+0x9QN1BvQoawiG4oQXNwby000djAXGIgV47jtVdMZlXvR+p xinfWWRQSvbSM7y4E7UXDBjK+r3O1D2W6/KavBjkEOFtwEfvcUWMpwXDryJ0psF/e1f8 pMJfVcgds4ZtbhpL522elf8XsbLgyAscc8xdH54yIXD26Rnd3JvdnsFXfjX5xwAx2BF7 g18aF4l4ZIuNv5swCfwLBSNBiuQOJ7zFypTKVt9xZu02AM5LbXKU9CuFm1PwYYcJi8pN uaig9SxTTPLp9qCnnkXOlhc/20kWev5BFyiNFFacgZ9Lyt2UpWT7mH8dE4ElJjyrAAxQ LKeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=d33j8rKpky6cfN2TFnUEGJNyp0azLOUXe7rk9igci/o=; b=JxpNJGTiSz8CqlRWZ5nfz72qoQb7f6Gqp6veYX6eCHrsEIboXnzRM+W5koW+vgQVQt VF2zJl6hhDr/wXR460V/MGotvS5z2f/BNLpZHUGIfsuGEuPFvA955wge1qoepJDWk00E kcPrs4a5MmztJDz03huCXj/T8gFCYxu3O8BvJ+qgDgv1Vu85R0Ulkc6hziWtytp0P1H9 0G7HPRjO0Yws/pCCHVuxB4G099TyCXsUTM+nR49POCQ3q0lGETf+MHGZKv5fKxjzo2t3 joEzQA0rWjYddx9HMOjpQrufTvqJLNY3INM8hpqPZBA5qsBE5PgZketqbs3EA2jXtPeM yuMw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVcvjs9G3dLMYRXLMqoMYsbjIFb1/97p7rxaxoqkPP3Di8obVSP QMuYTHFktzxsfsEFxB3Iuskli0h4NFPKan2QO0+5/uJ7JKk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzp3tAc+jpNRRTdiiujtNNjV5oKSS/n4t6AayMB+b1DiqRZnV9Y/+1jM6fPEWHDK/4OfRuNBPL48iP4fgNKvkw= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ee91:: with SMTP id u17mr19003237qvr.22.1580173006615; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 16:56:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 17:56:35 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Removing vpo driver To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4867VY41wFz4RBj X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=uLv1rxf5; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.77 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-0.78)[ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.04), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 00:56:54 -0000 Greetings, Unless there's a concrete objection, and some indication it has been used in FreeBSD 12 or later, I plan on removing it after FOSDEM sometime. This driver is for the ZIP100 drive (the 100MB floppy) connected via a parallel port. This hasn't been relevant for 20 years since the industry has moved on. The umass driver supports the USB version of the ZIP100 drive and I used last summer to recover a dozen zip discs for a friend. This provides a migration path for those that may need it for $15-$25 on ebay depending on your luck. Given the lack of changes to this drive, and the massive changes in the system since it was written, I'd be greatly surprised if it still worked on relevant hardware. Comments? Warner P.S. https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23389 has the proposed changes. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jan 28 06:42:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280BA23E217 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vtr.rulingia.com (vtr.rulingia.com [IPv6:2001:19f0:5801:ebe:5400:1ff:fe53:30fd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vtr.rulingia.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 486H9J06jKz4lVZ for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:42:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from server.rulingia.com (ppp239-208.static.internode.on.net [59.167.239.208]) by vtr.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00S6gBNW041472 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:42:17 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00S6g6Hw040687 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:42:06 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00S6g6bG040686; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:42:06 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:42:06 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Jeff Roberson Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimum memory for ZFS (was Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts) Message-ID: <20200128064206.GC18006@server.rulingia.com> References: <202001230207.00N274xO042659@mail.karels.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3lcZGd9BuhuYXNfi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 486H9J06jKz4lVZ X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of peter@rulingia.com designates 2001:19f0:5801:ebe:5400:1ff:fe53:30fd as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=peter@rulingia.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[rulingia.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5800::/38, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-3.30)[ip: (-9.75), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5800::/38(-4.87), asn: 20473(-1.84), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:42:29 -0000 --3lcZGd9BuhuYXNfi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-Jan-26 10:58:15 -1000, Jeff Roberson wrot= e: >My proposal is this, limit ARC to some reasonable fraction of memory, say= =20 >1/8th, and then do the following: > >On expiration from arc place the pages in a vm object associated with the= =20 >device. The VM is now free to keep them or re-use them for user memory. > >On miss from arc check the page cache and take the pages back if they=20 >exist. > >On invalidation you need to invalidate the page cache. ZFS already has a mechanism for the VM system to request that ARC be shrunk. This was designed around the Solaris VM system and isn't a perfect match with the FreeBSD VM system. There has been a lot of work, within FreeBSD, over the years to improve the way this behaves but it's obviously not perfect. One point of confusion is that FreeBSD and Solaris use identical terms to mean different things within their VM systems. >ARC already allows spilling to SSD. I don't know the particulars of the= =20 >interface but we're essentially spilling to memory that can be reclaimed= =20 >by the page daemon as necessary. This is L2ARC. ZFS expects that L2ARC refers to a fixed amount of space that ZFS has control over. I'm unaware of any mechanism for an external system to reclaim L2ARC space - it would require the external system to request ZFS (via an, AFAIK, non-existent interface) to free L2ARC objects. ZFS only implements a single level of L2ARC so re-using L2ARC for this new caching mechanism would also prevent the use of traditional SSD-based L2ARC on FreeBSD. Since ZFS already has a mechanism for an external system to request that ZFS release memory, I believe effort would be better expended in getting FreeBSD to better exchange memory pressure data with ZFS via that existing mechanism, rather than inventing a new mechanism that is intended to achieve much the same result, whilst effectively removing a ZFS feature. --=20 Peter Jeremy --3lcZGd9BuhuYXNfi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE7rKYbDBnHnTmXCJ+FqWXoOSiCzQFAl4v17RfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEVF QjI5ODZDMzA2NzFFNzRFNjVDMjI3RTE2QTU5N0EwRTRBMjBCMzQACgkQFqWXoOSi CzSimA//fWxhdJoFxJPRKrBiJbiw214dpxYRQCufg+9XDuMIqIC19ks5WUXjyY8G cv/jmCCS96DpJFlccZZZu6SlUFkthAFkc2PDHXBWQSdwJ/c6FSMkxmwG2LChuW9U ElX8Y7Aoe0EjoC9yDh0bQWNjwlTL0mZCFvf9veeFVhZ7b3agE7ZMiAvU4kdY2QfC gt7eWDXUNSVKv4egK1T0qW50jBCiQn3kd9siAWiszVY1ncQ3YqN8mLaC6PmfGo4J jg85K53yEGY8IdtBS8ggQsvNPn0CNw7obEAMPdsqwBEZHzgqsed27PtYNSS4zRun lMmk0sBi3GBJeZYT7dY6JpW9wnoM044fBbcwPUNZM4ApWKvvQ8r8xSgf/tb12cdr ywjTdNeoTTP4CZNxzonEfZ0jadnVIMY6R+sjB0AXpX04WLg91MwqHoVqX3kN6plG 23xA79ZA613qDgeU/B1KB63wP6oAvQn9b0AmgHglAlzOipxIXyclacu9lMpRvbGq vNKaaQYtNrB5guzdo13uad4SGmKp7tsa3vMzmwpIpoCgP1uU5DMBPvkWTqkjEtTA IYEygSWhYrY+XrhHgyI5HBU9B5IgSD4lDP88jCiFEigy8mbtMgDBOyxx/Ed8Ctj9 LjIDO/41qGs1vQpxVNI4BIAf3YKwfnuxd53cFAsxIT0rI/6rq00= =g7Ct -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3lcZGd9BuhuYXNfi-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jan 28 09:52:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D0F1FC501 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 09:52:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486MNn0wWNz3C0j for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 09:52:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [194.32.164.27] ([194.32.164.27]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id 00S9qbJV011813; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 09:52:37 GMT (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: Removing vpo driver From: Bob Bishop In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 09:52:34 +0000 Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 486MNn0wWNz3C0j X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rb@gid.co.uk designates 194.32.164.250 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rb@gid.co.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gid.co.uk]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[250.164.32.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-0.59)[ip: (-2.14), ipnet: 194.32.164.0/24(-1.07), asn: 42831(0.33), country: GB(-0.08)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42831, ipnet:194.32.164.0/24, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 09:52:42 -0000 Hi, > On 28 Jan 2020, at 00:56, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > Greetings, >=20 > Unless there's a concrete objection, and some indication it has been = used > in FreeBSD 12 or later, I plan on removing it after FOSDEM sometime. >=20 > This driver is for the ZIP100 drive (the 100MB floppy) connected via a > parallel port. This hasn't been relevant for 20 years since the = industry > has moved on. The umass driver supports the USB version of the ZIP100 = drive > and I used last summer to recover a dozen zip discs for a friend. This > provides a migration path for those that may need it for $15-$25 on = ebay > depending on your luck. >=20 > Given the lack of changes to this drive, and the massive changes in = the > system since it was written, I'd be greatly surprised if it still = worked on > relevant hardware. >=20 > Comments? No objection here. FWIW the SCSI-connected ZIP100 drive should still work also (got one, = haven=E2=80=99t tried it recently). > Warner >=20 > P.S. https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23389 has the proposed changes. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 -- Bob Bishop t: +44 (0)118 940 1243 rb@gid.co.uk m: +44 (0)783 626 4518 From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jan 28 19:00:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3649223810F for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:00:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com (mail-pj1-x1035.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 486bXY0mTpz4PBm for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:00:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id j17so662983pjz.3 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:00:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=zw3615vQXsIaHhJOd6fvzos0uF3HrGxVuE8Iksc6Q84=; b=h3kL8A3FHQxrOstr8uAz7Z80wrtsXVO2ennQR3Sn+lr51qMdjGjzfboDsxpPJQmGuZ 6mspOUDnYGXzDbOmJrHF6ud6DLMKZkXaiZ19qE9/tOIO5Pz9kc2oFFSpMYl51j5gNoWP 0D1riE3utisxmDkF4G13evbnHJ4soUzZ+szZp+15ybwKlfu/+VLbVoDpNHsj8v4/psOz yFXGMT79+ao9BaSENOz5VDfFSGc7oxOrAouID1Y1ljon/3rcuKAWctLGq4I1HOv8CfI1 wpqDA6FnZKdqsR0NUdSO7aQlOvNqljBqyG0U/Ggv8ES/GQ3SXHMjYud2lJU23I/yebWj a4Fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=zw3615vQXsIaHhJOd6fvzos0uF3HrGxVuE8Iksc6Q84=; b=Qeiesf4oQODvXal2ldX9P14WJB+4f0gFwrsokBof6SrMNRkhr8gVU5Cc9K/RWlOrTN SUMKn6GunV9VxNGdaI78v2a0oCpz1V1wmleD9/c0IMxpJcH+fGt8sn+8vObGoE5g9pr4 W19K/ViKCrgfpBiTURFQFmlDxxtIzSK5Eq9PcceHNQjk1pHb/lfDORUf/jfLWKx4KjWh XoflCLF55dINXET7ElYt5mnVygAPx83pUntOWdIYmBlBS55YVyrEvmBFk3SVL5vHFcFg 6yzvHlaD1NiMcxbHZkBnnWaKDM2YiDCtyooY9EX73tSQQWxrVR4sVckZDq3jIJiAIQg/ iVgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUmI4k4Wv8lgV8VJVLYkqK2LEWtxnFsqrPzvWvVXYBWe7QnkHtv YiKhnzwSkOFBdjUaWe1IGUcAZRhc9iI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxx3M+LV0fUWwGlgQZ7bAei3+NBkITSIO39MJcF5lJ4pHm7fyjFv6W9lW9k7HL+kXH5SesGbQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:8a0e:: with SMTP id w14mr6506911pjn.51.1580238005636; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-76-81-105-82.west.biz.rr.com (rrcs-76-81-105-82.west.biz.rr.com. [76.81.105.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t65sm20309062pfd.178.2020.01.28.11.00.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:00:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 09:00:03 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: Peter Jeremy cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minimum memory for ZFS (was Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts) In-Reply-To: <20200128064206.GC18006@server.rulingia.com> Message-ID: References: <202001230207.00N274xO042659@mail.karels.net> <20200128064206.GC18006@server.rulingia.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 486bXY0mTpz4PBm X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=h3kL8A3F; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jroberson@jroberson.net has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035) smtp.mailfrom=jroberson@jroberson.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jroberson.net]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.04), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:00:14 -0000 On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2020-Jan-26 10:58:15 -1000, Jeff Roberson wrote: >> My proposal is this, limit ARC to some reasonable fraction of memory, say >> 1/8th, and then do the following: >> >> On expiration from arc place the pages in a vm object associated with the >> device. The VM is now free to keep them or re-use them for user memory. >> >> On miss from arc check the page cache and take the pages back if they >> exist. >> >> On invalidation you need to invalidate the page cache. > > ZFS already has a mechanism for the VM system to request that ARC be > shrunk. This was designed around the Solaris VM system and isn't a perfect > match with the FreeBSD VM system. There has been a lot of work, within > FreeBSD, over the years to improve the way this behaves but it's obviously > not perfect. One point of confusion is that FreeBSD and Solaris use > identical terms to mean different things within their VM systems. It wasn't a very good match for the Solaris VM system either. According to various accounts of people involved in the project they had intended to integrate with the page cache but ran out of time. It was meant for fileservers and it made a lot of compromises for general purpose workloads that have been fixed over time. For example fsync requiring the zil was not in the original design. This is one of those compromises. mmap and sendfile are others. There are ways to fix that as well FWIW but it requires some changes to our fault/object apis. > >> ARC already allows spilling to SSD. I don't know the particulars of the >> interface but we're essentially spilling to memory that can be reclaimed >> by the page daemon as necessary. > > This is L2ARC. ZFS expects that L2ARC refers to a fixed amount of space > that ZFS has control over. I'm unaware of any mechanism for an external > system to reclaim L2ARC space - it would require the external system to > request ZFS (via an, AFAIK, non-existent interface) to free L2ARC objects. > > ZFS only implements a single level of L2ARC so re-using L2ARC for this new > caching mechanism would also prevent the use of traditional SSD-based L2ARC > on FreeBSD. My point was only that it has hooks for moving things out of arc already. Not that this is a perfect fit. > > Since ZFS already has a mechanism for an external system to request that > ZFS release memory, I believe effort would be better expended in getting > FreeBSD to better exchange memory pressure data with ZFS via that existing > mechanism, rather than inventing a new mechanism that is intended to > achieve much the same result, whilst effectively removing a ZFS feature. It is very challenging to implement a sane global memory policy when you have a number of uncoordinated local caches making decisions. Many people have invested effort into making this system work better but still we need tuning to run properly at different memory sizes and workloads. I find this solution to be an architecturally weak compromise. If the trivially small amount of performance afforded to you by additional ARC is important it is much easier to opt in with a sysctl while everyone else enjoys a more self-tuning and dynamic system. Thanks, Jeff > > -- > Peter Jeremy > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Nov 26 18:47:55 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C346F1BE935 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:47:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x435.google.com (mail-wr1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47MtFQ5cRMz48G6 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:47:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x435.google.com with SMTP id i12so23795079wro.5 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:47:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ddmqbUIONbU70hvXPiPQl5J+I1KZeYNy4cYggoL10cU=; b=kNNvpz1aOaNqzvV36ksHITQuVqarncyAjqOmpPVskwMHmf16Mq41PjPGSpB+qxsy/q KUQcq5w5Z2n1DWe03DEqt735Ew5vvcWTNMdcm/P09xjyFnGR9dF4J5i71QfJDeGcJtHD F0tykCiBMURsRxa9NBNC7MxFKwjQctf9eNd31QJsTrQCuRv1KtH2ROgdbOnldlPfcICr ADfd4rV17JVx7PoGSRNo/BssnZ1j/k3gAbDl44olH0bB8YWwtJ9OQGCn+BVjWRTZDX+K +fiBcACJcU/QUDbfXzAjxQjEJtpcrVRX3h6pm939xSJM814Udh37p0nSeEI+SpQIK6Qh 58FQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ddmqbUIONbU70hvXPiPQl5J+I1KZeYNy4cYggoL10cU=; b=HnUquKKI0YoBdDoaIo1y9VK9SWQMwddwDJSTDXYfEHoltHoEr704p60Wq+ZRhLuv7w 26ZBT0VolI7oaZe5MSWt1hz6d5aVpvoSBeMjyls9THxHuzjNEgdNZoNlct7biGZIdbNS YKeBvAU79BNsSfUD8E0Q5bq4epsPvk0MJveb3aK0Mj7a0t8qVx7BAarSSHEhlGKHGAtq f7jxdUDhJukWs6OtX82Q4r6cVKTW7pvYzlh0R9bbLoTmVE4iYnilt989hBCstT5HwOhe 9/SqiiXX+N2b1xEZJYuP7lua9+qmL4+SNrGTJ+BMMH8CentvixfqEbg8KBruflr/I4/q 8D6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXvSAe9Gxw5WJuq+GlqEbIDBnybXeoUbsU7w2SAeMOzZmyWVAG7 4NvAvTEzhmSY2TDz7j9Bj3PFDS/H X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx41ooeCBnHihojFtNu1+i0D4qVP+pb8U6bpKlFEhM2uqA6A0t8b+wT9xIxaTKp8Jr/7U8Xlg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:978c:: with SMTP id s12mr37576892wrb.47.1574794072832; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernst.home (p5B3BE20E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [91.59.226.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s17sm3969454wmh.41.2019.11.26.10.47.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:47:52 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Jennejohn To: Michael Gmelin Cc: Warner Losh , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Killing Giant for 13 Message-ID: <20191126194750.3ff939c3@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: <20191126193555.047a63cf@bsd64.grem.de> References: <201911260917.xAQ9Hcf1001914@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <20191126193555.047a63cf@bsd64.grem.de> Reply-To: gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47MtFQ5cRMz48G6 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=kNNvpz1a; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gljennjohn@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::435 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[gljennjohn@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.42), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.70), asn: 15169(-1.95), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[14.226.59.91.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:44:20 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:47:55 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:47:50 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:47:55 -0000 On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:35:55 +0100 Michael Gmelin wrote: > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:21:20 -0700 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > However, the hpt27xx driver turns out not to be Giant locked on > > versions of FreeBSD >= 10. So it's off the list. > > Is that a real list that could be made publicly available, so users can > check if any of the hardware they use will be affected? > cd /usr/src/sys grep -Rl D_NEEDGIANT (assuming the user has the right permissions) Drivers which use GIANT have this somewhere in their code. I found 30 C file hits in HEAD. -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Nov 27 07:26:20 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953E81CC766 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:26:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x443.google.com (mail-wr1-x443.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::443]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47NC4W2JZ0z3H9C for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x443.google.com with SMTP id w9so25437418wrr.0 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:26:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ktx7ziqwZN7ekB3EKln+uuCTTZOPXJ+TPgweq0HxQ3Y=; b=GlODc1u7HyGN6e1Gf6poaXGqK3Ltg8ieONHcWqcwbqKRzo1BzWp8l/YUd6UCeZY5bC VyACJjBjtkJcIczlptm3GCQvT6EDMILorgz4Xpj2nF/wSfW30JI427sgsk13E73xTA6R PKCENCMgBT/huPHUR97Xki1vDEu7ag8kD+oSREXd+DDqw3pKNlhLpYMyimHnUX7vH/H1 ErOuzmFZi3Ed5WftHy+nz1rewGWLtDhlR0LESo9xzSBSr2YvbFgeI5SN5DUNXDp27wyF z56yPSBDEX4DTgNZbB+SY4PGU+fwYAwcrZPZo12Z60Oj/ixitOP38vrCVueu0qUj/k7A GZ6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ktx7ziqwZN7ekB3EKln+uuCTTZOPXJ+TPgweq0HxQ3Y=; b=mciig+/LqwInXDj7D2eEcIzkLTvrPSiNCzsmJd2z68P2ehDwbL41oqnVMSpbtXq2TH 9fIoVU2zdwzcoVbQFUjir2613rHF8nwXsd2H4dJQeDDIBIx3CuNLAJFWz1sNcskG6Zmf nJMjH8MJrIDLVbBMxIWuO7C11zyAxXGQ/NWc8A7Wegux/OuENQbtwvuri2bVuXaVJ+19 jYqJHdsO5oTul6zAFXMNEi7fv7UwJtK4VGcKlVkU2nEd1XifGdEnZkOnWmbdV2OPW+4b uG7vm9LPzEkcWP4j0fC78rQ0/rf1JyDWa1fWVFq9a0H2C6km/41X1RZuP5vplD3Vhcbm PRzw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWFx4/FiYxO+CoKKsFbB44KhtMx0Z4IFI4ag8dzaMfAazZHoRS3 xIozYo4mkFseT6qUG1Gbvoo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzArRsJPu2b3GxWvmIN0Lgq3Ur7s1QChYUHht3LrGEywJqn0uZZ8yZjfTPgSq8Ayliy29T50A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f88c:: with SMTP id u12mr22434666wrp.323.1574839577760; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernst.home (pD9E23646.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.226.54.70]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e16sm17995465wrj.80.2019.11.26.23.26.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:26:16 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Jennejohn To: Warner Losh Cc: Michael Gmelin , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Killing Giant for 13 Message-ID: <20191127082615.7c59857c@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: References: <201911260917.xAQ9Hcf1001914@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <20191126193555.047a63cf@bsd64.grem.de> <20191126194750.3ff939c3@ernst.home> Reply-To: gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47NC4W2JZ0z3H9C X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=GlODc1u7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gljennjohn@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::443 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[gljennjohn@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.50), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.69), asn: 15169(-1.95), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[70.54.226.217.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:44:38 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:26:20 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:26:15 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:26:20 -0000 On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:23:17 -0700 Warner Losh wrote: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:47 AM Gary Jennejohn > wrote: > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:35:55 +0100 > > Michael Gmelin wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:21:20 -0700 > > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > However, the hpt27xx driver turns out not to be Giant locked on > > > > versions of FreeBSD >= 10. So it's off the list. > > > > > > Is that a real list that could be made publicly available, so users can > > > check if any of the hardware they use will be affected? > > > > > > > cd /usr/src/sys > > grep -Rl D_NEEDGIANT (assuming the user has the right permissions) > > > > Drivers which use GIANT have this somewhere in their code. > > > > I found 30 C file hits in HEAD. > > > > Yea, about 25 drivers, 5 of which look to be trivial to change over, some > already have. It used to be the case that all dev_t's in the tree were > marked NEEDGIANT because they did things like check permissions or other > such things that required Giant and this was easier than narrowing it down > to just the little bit of code that needed it... > > And then there's all the interrupt handlers that aren't marked MPSAFE... > how to grep for that? I think I may invent a NEEDS_GIANT sort of thing in > preference to MPSAFE. > > And then there's sysctl proc handlers not marked safe. Same notion as the > interrupt handlers. > > And finally all the direct use of the Giant lock, most of which I'll > replace by a bus_lock()/bus_unlock() API, or are for the kbd / console mess > (which I'll likely replace with another wrapper), and then the odd driver > that needs Giant for some reason (I think there's 2 or 3 of these). > I could maybe use something like bus_lock()/bus_unlock() in the rtsx driver because the OpenBSD code stil uses splxxx()s and I'm not sure how to replace them. > That's the audit I wanted to get done before posting next steps. > -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 1 10:05:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CD31C5B79 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mrvmurray@icloud.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47QkQM249lz4fQX for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mrvmurray@icloud.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 4539C1C5B77; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FC61C5B76 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mrvmurray@icloud.com) Received: from ms11p00im-qufo17281501.me.com (ms11p00im-qufo17281501.me.com [17.58.38.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47QkQK57rrz4fQV for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mrvmurray@icloud.com) Received: from gronkulator.grondar.org (grouter.grondar.org [88.96.155.38]) by ms11p00im-qufo17281501.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12B04B40827; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:24 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: Killing RANDOM_LOADABLE? From: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: Conrad Meyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-12-01_02:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=702 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1912010089 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47QkQK57rrz4fQV X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.60 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:17.58.0.0/16]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[icloud.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[icloud.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[icloud.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[52.38.58.17.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[icloud.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:714, ipnet:17.58.32.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[icloud.com:s=1a1hai]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-1.50), ipnet: 17.58.32.0/20(-0.92), asn: 714(-2.31), country: US(-0.05)]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[icloud.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; WHITELIST_SPF_DKIM(-3.00)[icloud.com:d:+,icloud.com:s:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:44:55 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 10:05:31 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:05:22 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 10:05:31 -0000 > On 30 Nov 2019, at 20:46, Conrad Meyer wrote: > > This option creates significant complexity in the random device. Correct! It caused me a LOAD of headaches to write, and removing it would be a significant improvemnet to code simplicity. M -- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 15:12:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F771B2112 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from greg@unrelenting.technology) Received: from out.migadu.com (out.migadu.com [91.121.223.63]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.migadu.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S5853LXQz4V7J for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from greg@unrelenting.technology) Received: (Migadu outbound); Tue, 03 Dec 2019 15:12:51 +0000 Received: from wms0-eu-central.migadu.com (wms0-eu-central.migadu.com [139.162.159.86]) by out.migadu.com (Haraka/2.8.16) with ESMTPSA id 1A3586C4-867A-4FCF-8724-46E0EDBABEED.1 envelope-from (authenticated bits=0) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 verify=FAIL); Tue, 03 Dec 2019 15:12:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: RainLoop/1.12.1 From: greg@unrelenting.technology Message-ID: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: "Ed Maste" , "freebsd-arch" , "freebsd-arm" In-Reply-To: References: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; bh=soqF+E0oQCAULO2DoU7B+qJjFlar7ClmdzNHIiBaUCE=; c=relaxed/simple; d=unrelenting.technology; h=from:subject:date:to; s=default; b=Br9pfxi/MeDsR0CmuQges9iiK12F/m44E4SqikpDw4uPUHKVHW/QOAu/+2a5+Tap9aI9cNpk8yrjSfLgb5i3HRi5uHmv1fXpuRer1wd5Akoovt8DiUtyJss7A6n0bUi3YG+YQtDLTKGPK0nXr9vXmusRj7h8zJP4Ycw4huT/YwA= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S5853LXQz4V7J X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=unrelenting.technology header.s=default header.b=Br9pfxi/; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=unrelenting.technology; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of greg@unrelenting.technology designates 91.121.223.63 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=greg@unrelenting.technology X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.30 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[unrelenting.technology:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:91.121.223.63]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[unrelenting.technology:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[unrelenting.technology,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[63.223.121.91.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.30)[ip: (-9.84), ipnet: 91.121.0.0/16(-3.47), asn: 16276(1.84), country: FR(-0.00)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:91.121.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:45:20 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 15:12:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 15:12:50 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 15:12:54 -0000 December 3, 2019 1:57 PM, "Ed Maste" wrote:=0A=0A>> = Developers should be able to build packages on commonly available,=0A>> n= on-embedded Tier 1 systems. This can mean either native builds if=0A>> no= n-embedded systems are commonly available for the platform in question,= =0A>> or it can mean cross-builds hosted on some other Tier 1 architectur= e.=0A> =0A> This is somewhat of a challenge today - there aren't many arm= 64=0A> platforms readily available in a configuration most suited to=0A> = developer use, such as a 4- or 8-core system with 16GB of RAM and=0A> SAT= A- or NVMe-connected storage. Smaller systems (e.g. Pine64) are=0A> readi= ly available but not quite capable enough; larger systems (e.g.=0A> Marve= ll ThunderX and Ampere eMAG) are out of reach for typical=0A> developer u= se. User-mode QEMU cross-builds are a possibility, but this=0A> item is o= ne that should resolve over time as new platforms become=0A> available.= =0A=0AThe Marvell/SolidRun MACCHIATObin is an affordable 4-core (Cortex A= 72)=0Awith DDR4 (takes one full size DIMM), SATA, USB 3.0 and PCIe.=0AAnd= most importantly, excellent firmware support (upstream EDK2+TrustedFirmw= are).=0AThe PCIe is rather quirky (I really should make a proper blog pos= t already)=0Abut I have it working with a Radeon RX 480.=0AIt can be a de= cent developer desktop if you're fine with=0A"2013 era ultrabook" levels = of performance :D=0A=0AThough honestly if we're talking just about build = machines, the RPi4 is also=0Aa 4xA72.. Of course the elephant in the room= is the RAM :(=0ABut at least it has USB 3.0 for I/O, and we won't actual= ly need to support PCIe:=0Ahttps://github.com/pftf/edk2-platforms/commit/= f6469886e216390f460494b81a4a4bf78cb66ba8=0A=0AAlso, nothing in "non-embed= ded systems" says "hardware you physically own", right?=0AAn EC2 a1.4xlar= ge (spot) instance is an excellent way to build big software. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 16:56:27 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B211B5916; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:56:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S7RZ2fYGz4d6P; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:56:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.206] (cpe-23-243-162-239.socal.res.rr.com [23.243.162.239]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 8a7255bf (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:56:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: greg@unrelenting.technology, Ed Maste , freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm References: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> From: Pete Wright Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S7RZ2fYGz4d6P X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.97 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[239.162.243.23.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.67)[ip: (-9.28), ipnet: 174.136.96.0/20(-3.73), asn: 25795(-0.30), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:46:45 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:56:27 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:56:13 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:56:27 -0000 On 12/3/19 7:12 AM, greg@unrelenting.technology wrote: > December 3, 2019 1:57 PM, "Ed Maste" wrote: > >>> Developers should be able to build packages on commonly available, >>> non-embedded Tier 1 systems. This can mean either native builds if >>> non-embedded systems are commonly available for the platform in question, >>> or it can mean cross-builds hosted on some other Tier 1 architecture. >> This is somewhat of a challenge today - there aren't many arm64 >> platforms readily available in a configuration most suited to >> developer use, such as a 4- or 8-core system with 16GB of RAM and >> SATA- or NVMe-connected storage. Smaller systems (e.g. Pine64) are >> readily available but not quite capable enough; larger systems (e.g. >> Marvell ThunderX and Ampere eMAG) are out of reach for typical >> developer use. User-mode QEMU cross-builds are a possibility, but this >> item is one that should resolve over time as new platforms become >> available. > The Marvell/SolidRun MACCHIATObin is an affordable 4-core (Cortex A72) > with DDR4 (takes one full size DIMM), SATA, USB 3.0 and PCIe. > And most importantly, excellent firmware support (upstream EDK2+TrustedFirmware). > The PCIe is rather quirky (I really should make a proper blog post already) > but I have it working with a Radeon RX 480. > It can be a decent developer desktop if you're fine with > "2013 era ultrabook" levels of performance :D > > Though honestly if we're talking just about build machines, the RPi4 is also > a 4xA72.. Of course the elephant in the room is the RAM :( > But at least it has USB 3.0 for I/O, and we won't actually need to support PCIe: > https://github.com/pftf/edk2-platforms/commit/f6469886e216390f460494b81a4a4bf78cb66ba8 > > Also, nothing in "non-embedded systems" says "hardware you physically own", right? > An EC2 a1.4xlarge (spot) instance is an excellent way to build big software. interesting timing in regards to using AWS for builds: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/coming-soon-graviton2-powered-general-purpose-compute-optimized-memory-optimized-ec2-instances/ if these perf numbers are real, this is something i would be interested in for general purpose systems i deploy on AWS. -p -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 23:15:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1B51C175F for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 23:15:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic306-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.68.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47SHsD4DRzz472k for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 23:15:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: Me051kEVM1mF4FWCJLpqQBOlh76jT7.3AsqKUBV1VhGX.8cqOsdOuda1EgEOd_d 9.iAKwBPCaynGiHm6rOc_7Y2teIpcURNC45r8pVnEpRSuqLDvAIo3MI11zdXgUZ_TSf8mFHeTUT8 pBJsE0bculyTGFe3ZXi5goJgkEOciTB3dFtDkQukeQ9Nxrxc47BEx4XMAl320XyRX.D3OW1n3tY_ WU6xbGthttyHDwgFGP54nUM6.dv111yeC8e5XpJeRBYeXz1VSl.1S1sGYiyGSP4hHcV6DCckE69B Oe5IvaY5JA2uWH3r98xHeUhmxCqAGyvHoIENnV_LRgU6XoOFiHmplP6eeltheQRsH2zjiYzyOtr. u0Z8s8Mph.SM0Ni2jx5nuJAktO50ut2JhJA_nVusQcukfJeSPVD_pwwGJjn0PMECZVEjaxdV4cDj .71_tSqb_yfhSah5MO_TC8ndRg66pDyhIfWsLHa4s4X0sheoP.bF23LKqdmNFcpScFgucx_bPpkV 33FL3iZb5yqJB7DqhM4jrgEpiNCcMhf5MYnEeIscc_pCI11QzBwlUSWrgD7sBEnf6w.GG3K7LLpG noufabDMs1dx_4Gi48zDAjV_jhyaKHgs1Q03XkcGWu7an9dF6Bc4Qw6VB6YolbORP_f93RXZNO1T WemT6yRkonA8o32eFDKO.qwlrFlp2mo1rW5DBnv3fdYK7nL9J_NrMHqAHG4BAa5JrEfZWu2hFafJ Hv.2AK6v2NC6GGHccvHE67X9DdMVrPE9CmaeYfSej4iDRIi.TRSXlVD0nrOL_wZsjOdyUaQDHT22 ckcEoMG6OT9SzeImVYB0WU0wuszppFhzWSkzAjK83QUbBb.lpTh7dEk3JrhDGBW5AlapJ8REq5L4 w9TFki5D515sMliA_wlxooVDOy7RJ.St.dHpsPeRAI75_IVWp5c278V4j1xnCK560k54vKyoFdVN KkL2_0vl52vztile7Q9p5vKA66Hdo1KteFWml1KgEg26U7ndWj3US.2AVx0ZTF_sfStWcVMNeSST bfKf0S0jytBAlOfEhBrQPd.Pgb_mP_FizjJDpGUJIdYwpPSVo2ozSZxOiyHhPhf4BQWMq.LKRc2U VDDDSmgNsds6NfUQTVNmP.ILT6pakSHw5008gPLUImQxjfsThziRKiKPGZL0XSchLbvU0qlo4Yqq cFUzJhSa5k3AqqCWT15wuDdH_SYiljDGQ8aCSXiD0ZLc5EUxJ6yq6oBYYPBy2d4rNydb5vdJrpSp 1muk7DsfoYvbbJma17d2GIi93fiVYvyfR.vCR2Qd0IFu__45ORGEF471N2HM9aG_.1uYKKKc8saq XjYmfEkpfPycE2CHde65sDAHBvimSHOg8K1mVfaaltFVFOSojHWWby1o3W4Y195lUJ3ZSYzjQ.fG zTLW7Mgp7QPAqT2W_qJVUHmEqn7EwoFCBs9_1cA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 23:15:42 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c3a8bffae04e1673f875433888ed64f1; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:15:41 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Cc: Greg V , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4DE00648-791D-41A9-8037-0834D16F3CEF@yahoo.com> References: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> To: Ed Maste X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47SHsD4DRzz472k X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.48)[0.482,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[84.68.137.98.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.56)[0.560,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/21, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (8.20), ipnet: 98.137.64.0/21(0.88), asn: 36647(0.70), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:46:59 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:15:45 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:15:40 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:15:45 -0000 On 2019-Dec-3, at 04:28, Ed Maste wrote: > On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 10:12, wrote: >>=20 >> The Marvell/SolidRun MACCHIATObin is an affordable 4-core (Cortex = A72) >> with DDR4 (takes one full size DIMM), SATA, USB 3.0 and PCIe. >> And most importantly, excellent firmware support (upstream = EDK2+TrustedFirmware). >> The PCIe is rather quirky (I really should make a proper blog post = already) >> but I have it working with a Radeon RX 480. >> It can be a decent developer desktop if you're fine with >> "2013 era ultrabook" levels of performance :D >=20 > Yeah, it looks like a pretty good platform, if we can get past "quirky > PCIe" to "buy x, y, z, install the image from https://..., and it will > just work". I think the performance should be fine, stability and > usability are more important. The MACCHIATObin that I have access to (sometimes) was from: https://www.picocluster.com/products/pico-macchiatobin But, with the top on, there is not much room above the PCIe slot for the case involved: may be an inch or so. (I've never used the PCIe slot.) The SSD mount place is on the top piece. (There are pictures.) Greg provided an edk2 based image for UEFI and I set the jumpers to use it from the uSD card slot. I had to set it to use ACPI information instead of dtb to get it to work. It found and booted the SSD. It would be nice to have a port that produced a similar image, possibly preset to ACPI style. (The uSD card choice avoided any potential of messing up in a non-recoverable way in trying to update an on-board area. Just my choice to use a simple dd to a uSD card.) For EtherNet I'm using a USB3 adapter: none of the on board EtherNet ports are supported (yet?). (The context is based on head -r355027 currently.) I'm not sure about having rc.conf cause DHCP handling for ue0 instead of later. (ue0 not ready yet that early?) I've been doing "dhclient ue0" later via the serial console. I'm using a serial port connection and ssh access via EtherNet, much like I do for an OverDrive 1000. As stands, the boot messages between about the last from the loader into some from world do not show up on the serial port. (The MACCHIATObin is not configured for video output so I do not know about what would show up there if enabled.) I've done buildworld buildkernel and built a few hundred ports (multiple times). Other than points noted above, I've not seen any oddities in such basic use. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com ( dsl-only.net went away in early 2018-Mar) From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 23:54:06 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8231C24FE for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 23:54:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from greg@unrelenting.technology) Received: from out.migadu.com (out.migadu.com [91.121.223.63]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.migadu.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47SJjT1pnhz48r4 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 23:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from greg@unrelenting.technology) Received: (Migadu outbound); Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:54:02 +0000 Received: from wms0-eu-central.migadu.com (wms0-eu-central.migadu.com [139.162.159.86]) by out.migadu.com (Haraka/2.8.16) with ESMTPSA id E93E9FC4-97A8-4DB8-A568-25DBABE0B13A.1 envelope-from (authenticated bits=0) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 verify=FAIL); Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:54:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: RainLoop/1.12.1 From: greg@unrelenting.technology Message-ID: <01ca147741c3ee9b120b05d267bc4101@unrelenting.technology> Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: "Mark Millard" , "Ed Maste" Cc: "freebsd-arm" , "freebsd-arch" In-Reply-To: <4DE00648-791D-41A9-8037-0834D16F3CEF@yahoo.com> References: <4DE00648-791D-41A9-8037-0834D16F3CEF@yahoo.com> <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; bh=q/5vP2w+bJmgoEZuMG+Y8/P2xszFYqUwsX/T3BvdZbw=; c=relaxed/simple; d=unrelenting.technology; h=from:subject:date:to; s=default; b=jUSYecP+vuHsSD3uJ5pM7qeABe1gNRiraEe5+8pAwKNyNnrJObnr9i67Cn6E5QT7fZqx7aS2ir89fLOEZGc8PqnB7RmGNfgK9uEkUZtvALRR2QSRgXP2DteNYK3O6sgUf0MzCaPr6NTy2lo+38KgO1BasAB8H1BO1tuPH2JX6dk= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47SJjT1pnhz48r4 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=unrelenting.technology header.s=default header.b=jUSYecP+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=unrelenting.technology; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of greg@unrelenting.technology designates 91.121.223.63 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=greg@unrelenting.technology X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[unrelenting.technology:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:91.121.223.63]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[unrelenting.technology:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[unrelenting.technology,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[63.223.121.91.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.31)[ip: (-9.85), ipnet: 91.121.0.0/16(-3.56), asn: 16276(1.84), country: FR(-0.00)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:91.121.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:48:08 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:54:06 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:54:01 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 23:54:06 -0000 December 4, 2019 2:15 AM, "Mark Millard" wrote:=0A=0A= > The MACCHIATObin that I have access to (sometimes) was=0A> from:=0A> = =0A> https://www.picocluster.com/products/pico-macchiatobin=0A=0AThat acr= ylic case for 99 dollars?? That's kinda ridiculous.=0AI guess that includ= es a power supply but it looks like a=0Avery basic one, plugs into the ba= rrel jack instead of the=0AATX socket.=0A=0AI would not be surprised if a= full GPU load on a reference=0ARX 480 card just melted that power jack := )=0A=0A> Greg provided an edk2 based image for UEFI and I set the=0A> jum= pers to use it from the uSD card slot. I had to set it=0A> to use ACPI in= formation instead of dtb to get it to work.=0A> It found and booted the S= SD. It would be nice to have a=0A> port that produced a similar image, po= ssibly preset to=0A> ACPI style.=0A=0AActually having a port is not a bad= idea, there's edk2=0Afor virtual machines (OVMF) already.=0A=0A> (The uS= D card choice avoided any potential of messing up=0A> in a non-recoverabl= e way in trying to update an on-board=0A> area. Just my choice to use a s= imple dd to a uSD card.)=0A=0AIt's actually always recoverable. The boot = ROM can always=0Aboot from uSD and even from the serial port (!):=0A=0Aht= tps://developer.solid-run.com/knowledge-base/a388-u-boot/#booting-from-ua= rt=0A=0A(the docs are from another SoC but it's the same here) From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 4 14:49:06 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81AA1C3969; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 14:49:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu) Received: from gromit.dlib.vt.edu (gromit.dlib.vt.edu [128.173.49.70]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "gromit.dlib.vt.edu", Issuer "Chumby Certificate Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47ShZ93ynxz3Q34; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 14:49:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu) Received: from pmather-dld-1.lib.vt.edu (pmather-dld-1.lib.vt.edu [128.173.51.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gromit.dlib.vt.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CBD640D; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 09:48:58 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 From: Paul Mather In-Reply-To: <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> Cc: freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> To: Robert Clausecker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47ShZ93ynxz3Q34 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=vt.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.173.49.70) smtp.mailfrom=paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.09 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[vt.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-0.59)[ip: (-1.49), ipnet: 128.173.0.0/16(-0.74), asn: 1312(-0.68), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1312, ipnet:128.173.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:49:01 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:49:06 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 09:48:58 -0500 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:49:06 -0000 On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:24 AM, Robert Clausecker wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message = , Ed = Maste writes: >>> We don't do this today, but have the ability to do so for arm64 = server >>> platforms. (Due to its design, freebsd-update does not work >>> particularly well on devices with slow root filesystems such as SD >>> cards.) >>=20 >> I don't think storage-technology should be used as a discriminant = here. >>=20 >> First because it is quite trivial to plug in a quality USB SSD (WD >> passport for instance) and use that as root filesystem. >>=20 >> Second, just because freebsd-update takes a day to run, doesn't mean >> that people would not want it. >=20 > Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple days to > build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a lack of > RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). Getting it down to = one > day is already a huge quality of life improvement. I'm running FreeBSD/arm64 12-STABLE on a Raspberry Pi 3 using a = root-on-ZFS setup. I've been using packaged base for quite some time, = cross-building on FreeBSD/amd64. Every time I upgrade FreeBSD via "pkg = upgrade" it seems to me that it does not take an inordinately long time. = It takes longer than packaged base on a regular FreeBSD/amd64 server = with spinning disk, but not an excessive amount of time. It's certainly = on the order of minutes, not hours. Cheers, Paul. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 4 16:33:12 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6061CDEF0; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 16:33:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu) Received: from gromit.dlib.vt.edu (gromit.dlib.vt.edu [128.173.49.70]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "gromit.dlib.vt.edu", Issuer "Chumby Certificate Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47SktJ0Pvnz42rb; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 16:33:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paul@gromit.dlib.vt.edu) Received: from pmather-dld-1.lib.vt.edu (pmather-dld-1.lib.vt.edu [128.173.51.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gromit.dlib.vt.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3B392E8; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:33:09 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 From: Paul Mather In-Reply-To: Cc: Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8ED17B73-97C0-4843-900D-0EC13C87651C@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> To: Ed Maste X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47SktJ0Pvnz42rb X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:49:31 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 16:33:12 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:33:09 -0500 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 16:33:12 -0000 On Dec 4, 2019, at 6:30 AM, Ed Maste wrote: > On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 09:49, Paul Mather = wrote: >>=20 >> I'm running FreeBSD/arm64 12-STABLE on a Raspberry Pi 3 using a = root-on-ZFS setup. I've been using packaged base for quite some time, = cross-building on FreeBSD/amd64. Every time I upgrade FreeBSD via "pkg = upgrade" it seems to me that it does not take an inordinately long time. = It takes longer than packaged base on a regular FreeBSD/amd64 server = with spinning disk, but not an excessive amount of time. It's certainly = on the order of minutes, not hours. >=20 > Indeed, migrating to pkg base is the presumed solution for the > "freebsd-update would be too slow on SD card root" issue. >=20 > Perhaps you wouldn't mind writing up the steps you're using to > cross-build and install updates? I am using already existing documentation from the FreeBSD project. = (Many thanks to the original authors!) 1. Building and serving pkg packages For a long time I have built packages for my FreeBSD systems using = Poudriere and serve them over the network via the Poudriere build = machine. See: - https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/ports-poudriere.html I use Nginx (via www/nginx) to serve the pkg repos (based on the = /usr/local/share/examples/poudriere/nginx.conf.sample file in the = ports-mgmt/poudriere installed port). Note, you don't really need Poudriere in all this, but I find it useful = for also cross-building my FreeBSD/arm64 ports. Because I was using = Poudriere long before PkgBase, I included it here as something folks = might also want to use. 2. Cross-building for FreeBSD/arm64 To cross-build, I use the "mk" script provided at the arm/crossbuild = section of the FreeBSD Wiki. See: - https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/crossbuild In the case of my FreeBSD/arm64 systems, my "config/mk.conf" and = "config/make.conf" consist solely of the following: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D config/mk.conf =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D mk_arch=3D"aarch64" mk_kernel=3D"GENERIC" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D config/mk.conf =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D config/make.conf =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D REPODIR=3D/build/repo =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D config/make.conf =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I have a simple script, "rebuild_os_pkgs" that cross-builds everything = and makes the base packages that end up under /build/repo: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D rebuild_os_pkgs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D #!/bin/sh mk buildworld mk buildkernel mk packages =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D rebuild_os_pkgs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D (My "mk" script is in /usr/local/bin.) To build an updated OS I run that script after first having updated the = OS source in the "src" subdirectory (e.g., via "make update"). (You can = symlink "src" to "/usr/src" if you want to save space.) The "mk = packages" step results in a pkg-compliant repository with all the = PkgBase packages in it. 3. FreeBSD/arm64 PkgBase I followed the PkgBase documentation at the FreeBSD Wiki to set up my = Raspberry Pi 3 to use the OS packages build on the FreeBSD/amd64 build = machine using the "rebuild_os_pkgs" script. See: - https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase I have this snippet on the OS package build machine to serve out the pkg = repository created as part of the rebuild_os_pkgs run: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D location /FreeBSD-base { alias /build/repo; autoindex on; allow all; } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D If you are used to building and serving pkg packages (e.g., ports = packages) then the real workhorse in all this is the "mk" cross-building = script + FreeBSD build system that is cross-building capable. I encourage folks to check out the FreeBSD documentation on = cross-building for ARM and PkgBase that I mention above. They have a = lot of useful information. Cheers, Paul.= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 19 14:21:10 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFB81E1CE0 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:21:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pdk@semihalf.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x143.google.com (mail-lf1-x143.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::143]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47dvF15b5Fz3FT8 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:21:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pdk@semihalf.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x143.google.com with SMTP id f15so4452652lfl.13 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 06:21:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=semihalf-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=czqDB1gP70kQ7rCICP6IP87mH+0p5mshQKdaLlYySDs=; b=iBlj5LoMJdfx8GAfaymEMA3sC2FoxsstrnF42UAuhmlhM+10ys+bbKLFZBIjP/uzrl 8OtP/ebsGADEetpZrPSUkX/b1FxAly6RrR5Rn+S9waXXC2U/f/S7rgFpZQ+5qd5iFHf/ MHGwgIIf1iJQTBUFMR3QsquUDz6VP7ny3X0p+PaKlokzw3mFz0GkXR7AazPWoqImvmuR bBsGHoyr3p/tpAG6P4xt48UKyG5HSmbHDfuS8DloY0W/FMgsACORXQ7cXPdP13oemp9t Vf/qmNKt/ZzUmmce+2lptw20XQ/BeYn6QInkwJMk0a6GiriM7CUeemlKjE7EZpbExQ+4 r+5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=czqDB1gP70kQ7rCICP6IP87mH+0p5mshQKdaLlYySDs=; b=i2xuIyRjShO0In/OMSbW3dGOmMjqk+HMvqu9yW1KR21iNaUS4/XezQqcfCkuLob06l 5dRk8WH821LOvXjfxlemtzX6wF/G22qY/3SipMJuGFjkeFOL6aGCtEM8qa+M9L7T3zcV CI33V7GZFnmnhR6JUsMv0uMvOWSsG8jcGUUViYyBen5yGyP8GUjh1txyz78qGkMAHrZ6 qJ0YyeXZM6M27a/wOorpILLdF7hOXinVDkRxhvdqqjmwRWfa94OjbLDBa5+PGEnkWyso 3oG8lBa1O6HAEMW3IjvVXaVTwdG8S1zRZOy/k4+agZtjOlflDjtg8rP/WiVapya1ABct xrfg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCgNDBUjo5sUzJ0DgHYJS5hFhsH/mYEjdaagG6fHC1ZZXtIvRs m5Gul7yF/an/xwUHNeL+bK2zbq+K2mmrE9BWc6rOqIBlBw0BuQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyjyQVP/Wx7QVwS8DqOjh2/oV2AU9pW/NUmosKwFpGY7NeQIF00iNvqptCLIgfVlnZhTM8njW6wWXEBDtMcUl4= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5604:: with SMTP id v4mr5150937lfd.152.1576765266986; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 06:21:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Patryk Duda Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: Open Crypto Framework Changes: Round 1 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: Marcin Wojtas , Patryk Duda X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47dvF15b5Fz3FT8 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=semihalf-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=iBlj5LoM; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pdk@semihalf.com has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::143) smtp.mailfrom=pdk@semihalf.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FAKE_REPLY(1.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[semihalf-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[semihalf.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[semihalf-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-0.40)[ip: (2.61), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.65), asn: 15169(-1.90), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:50:03 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:21:10 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 15:19:59 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:21:10 -0000 Hi John, I tested ocf_rework branch on device which has cesa support. Output from "cryptocheck -vz -a all" doesn't differ when kernel was compiled from ocf_rework and from e0f7c88b6c (commit before changes). In both cases I can get the same number of interrupts generated by cesa using "vmstat -i". Nevertheless when I'm running IPSec (Strongswan acts as IKE daemon) software crypto is used instead of cesa. Performance is poor and no cesa interrupts are generated. When running kernel built from commit e0f7c88b6c IPSec works fine. Strongswan is configured to use only AES128 CBC + SHA256 HMAC. This combination is supported by cesa, confirmed by cryptocheck. In my opinion something between IPSec and cesa broken. Best regards, Patryk From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Dec 26 17:50:37 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175AF1D5E37 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:50:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x843.google.com (mail-qt1-x843.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::843]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47kHYQ5qNqz49wq; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:50:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x843.google.com with SMTP id j5so22777517qtq.9; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:50:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HBQ524h1vyKlFHkCc5VYM0SnGd91o40c7sO7TTY3qqc=; b=UU/LazvkQkJ9CcIQnb8ko5TgnT/uZQOG59IUIbNSIrnIRQ9EhJFhIhdpSq9b2wvb84 7wLPJY9CxWmlD4Z7Njtw7tUUX2KaUsPC2MYD5zW2FWvcoNlkVsSj4uQh0UwRDUVc4eY1 ZNKvgf2oNZbgjYY7g5NLd5aG87F6Lk3noaJFK8WpiMfpl0wT9LlS3FWRqC7iFGoLd9Wj 2qrCWqdx6F3Sh3Qm5bm2ZQbzUBQvmn9mrG4SmspD6q7T8We90bUthBy6xKuh5xTxIIBs l7U4CaKj+rfAvpzCnu7WO4zb1UXkUV97CVebj+xsXK2P3DE6XL+9TOLFOHinjWzS5l3P ijfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HBQ524h1vyKlFHkCc5VYM0SnGd91o40c7sO7TTY3qqc=; b=IQe7+MgD3Z2/g/pzZH+h4DuCA/1zUkNY0+LxnmeUGCcf6Ec8m+cJBKQ/IedB/uxiZd Oe+puU2OaiJfEItrq8AopRAKFciPFuNqcD3+AUCbEilbIdahXJd3n+fAC4U/DqBIIRS4 b/unLF8vdX/QswsJ9AU7vTqFHQ0/xKOTEPvKHj3H5h8D+i1COsiX/uoOvs/XqMM1nCUB PlNiFXx0SNHP19fgWPHhobSJyMmK78N5IIH9GISRO7nHN1aI5AmXL6hWDkbUZl3XBQsi azQ5rlnPlOZuvqNcYn7n93XpeFAtr22fzorZSsnyRhExW+QI49Z1P197PO58lRBZQoKq BcJg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWP+7Z++8LOaSKAVsa+Q+f/I1PW+PeOsw0qSr/jmUB5Du0rW8Ck IhUtduQLCttkH4lJgUuRl1ZzvkgxnCDtVLSvZzIy2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzbFfUps1mrBU6m3Z2hd0GStnjhwZhLBRey/xlaEDNvKR2hKi0z1e6I1ecd88WdDakf4P1MsjOVBfusnHDoLWA= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:21ae:: with SMTP id 43mr35657232qty.223.1577382632699; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:50:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adrian Chadd Message-ID: Subject: Re: Gcc 4.2.1 to be removed before FreeBSD 13, a firm timeline To: Ed Maste Cc: Warner Losh , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47kHYQ5qNqz49wq X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=UU/Lazvk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of adrianchadd@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::843 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=adrianchadd@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.44), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.16), asn: 15169(-1.88), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:52:08 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:50:37 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:50:20 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:50:37 -0000 mips64el ? Hm, interesting. I thought I had already tested all the mips/mips64 variants with an external gcc toolchain. Lemme go see. -adrian On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 13:03, Ed Maste wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 12:00, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > Greetings, > > > > As promised for almost the past decade or so, gcc 4.2.1 will be removed > > from the tree before FreeBSD 13 is branched. > > > ... > > 2019-12-31: Turn off gcc 4.2.1 build by default (can be turned on) > > Reminder, this is less than two weeks away. In my no-gcc-4.2.1 > experiments sparc64, mips64el and mips64elhf are currently failing. > Turning off GCC 4.2.1 won't immediately cause their eviction, but the > clock is running for them to be fixed or removed: > > > 2020-03-31: svn rm gcc 4.2.1 and friends > > > > 2020-05-31: svn rm all non-clang platforms not supported by in-tree LLVM or > > converted to ext toolchain. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Dec 28 08:40:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0111E2C9B; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:40:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rizzo.unipi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-f66.google.com (mail-vs1-f66.google.com [209.85.217.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47lHFs2xXxz49Jg; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:40:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rizzo.unipi@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-f66.google.com with SMTP id s16so16622971vsc.10; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 00:40:33 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mCfwL+S9FB01e6gFVVFCCV61qTxxUPD/jYe8nyjqV28=; b=HlfBhFeNtq7y5VZQASZINGQc8U0+AZszNUjQniTeBm3lhF1jjoLm/2s1zO4py8qVTT tfiGaJ78SwVbp6RLDmkwdGvR2H1dSLnVc19vkTjSyq5gUWx+evPEmaYo2ASNX7luFEMf Hr04pNcYoFEUptbHwBZSAAaRQwp9nj9HapopbzMsZX47jvuU5JMxGU0mcJJGLKWw38Wo qYr4ZYz/N1kI7+f9FBOf8cA8x3WW9JvpWff513lyqaGurweD31nwUp5bLk0xfoPgUKap ywgtDOuktZv4gS0UqTZKhEJAXMoFhKL/5fIbfowviaiat/FjrU44RMRB7WVnR4cDgE/S oEcA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWe+1AJd1py5E8tieuC0r8fTA/pKi0+Yr625rbRnCPFw9TTXHdp w8rI3dc9mvdKFxyFB4o3thsusgPKaWNxDdi6H3o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxKUbNDRoSjOY7y5WzOQtCuNx8PzeT25E9Be/7QB2Q6fRKN5vNsKIqUjsPCO2DUbOnDEBbOAMvYrZKtYo8FiBk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:67c1:: with SMTP id b184mr29657164vsc.239.1577522431025; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 00:40:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6d466360-988f-e80d-3212-b6c479a5ec03@FreeBSD.org> <22559.1577484040@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <22559.1577484040@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Luigi Rizzo Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Probabile SPF]Re: gsched: modernize or remove? To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Warner Losh , Alexander Motin , Luigi Rizzo , Pawel Jakub Dawidek , "freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org" , "Conrad E. Meyer" , "Andrey V. Elsukov" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Warner Losh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47lHFs2xXxz49Jg X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rizzounipi@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rizzounipi@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.01 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rizzo@iet.unipi.it,rizzounipi@gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unipi.it]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.217.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.01)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.11), asn: 15169(-1.88), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rizzo@iet.unipi.it,rizzounipi@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.217.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:53:04 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:40:35 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 00:40:19 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:40:35 -0000 On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 2:00 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > In message bA@mail.gmail.com> > , Warner Losh writes: > >On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 10:53 AM Alexander Motin wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> As I can see, gsched code was not really maintained for the last 10 > >> years since being added. > ... > >> So my question is: does it make sense to try fix/modernize it, or it > >> just be easier to remove it? Does anybody still use it, or see some > >> future for it? > > Gsched was always a weird thing IMO. > > I was happy to see that you could do stuff like that with GEOM, but > for the life of me I could never figure out why you would want to > do it with GEOM which is a very low-information environment when > it comes to scheduling decisions. > > I belive the original inspiration was "Anticipatory disk-scheduling" > which tries to mitigate some starvation issues which you can have > with a normal elevator disksort on systems with very few ioreq > sources[1]. > > With SSDs all but having erased seek-time from the surface of the > planet, and huge caches in drives, controllers and pretty much > everywhere else people have been able to squeeze one in, it is not > even obvious to me if it makes sense to have any disksort in the > first place[2], much less gssched. > phk's summary is perfectly accurate. the practical motivation at the time was to make sure that svn operations and streaming I/O would not kill each other, but since we all switched to SSDs there is no use case anymore and so I am ok with removing gsched. As to why it was in geom rather than elsewhere: that was a very convenient place to do scheduling in a generic way, rather than replicate it in scsi/hdd/other lower level drivers. cheers luigi From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 11 09:52:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19D6223D8B; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 09:52:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bmeyer@mesoft.com.au) Received: from mail.mesoft.com.au (mail.mesoft.com.au [103.58.32.100]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.mesoft.com.au", Issuer "mail.mesoft.com.au" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47vwBV5gy0z3K18; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 09:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bmeyer@mesoft.com.au) Received: from msmacpro.sydney.mesoft.com.au (116-212-68-179.i3.net.au [116.212.68.179] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.mesoft.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 00B9qGpt002950 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:52:17 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from bmeyer@mesoft.com.au) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: Gcc 4.2.1 to be removed before FreeBSD 13, a firm timeline From: MeSOFT Corporate Email In-Reply-To: Cc: Warner Losh , Michal Meloun , sparc64@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7C4A2C18-4F49-4830-A974-6A6DA725A59A@mesoft.com.au> References: To: Ed Maste X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47vwBV5gy0z3K18 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bmeyer@mesoft.com.au designates 103.58.32.100 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bmeyer@mesoft.com.au X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.76 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.58.32.100]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[mesoft.com.au]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[country: AU(0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:134203, ipnet:103.58.32.0/24, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:54:20 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 09:52:41 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:52:16 +1100 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 09:52:41 -0000 > On 9 Jan 2020, at 09:09, Ed Maste wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 15:19, Ed Maste wrote: >>=20 >> PR 233405 libunwind >=20 > I've somewhat addressed this today, committing (untested) build fixes > from cem@. Someone with an interest in sparc64 and access to hardware > will need to test and investigate any failures. >=20 >> PR 239851 BSD crtbegin >=20 > This is now the main blocking issue. >=20 >> PR 243119 binutils 2.33.1,1 assertion failure (but it has a patch!) >=20 > A fixed binutils package should be available in a week or so. I=E2=80=99ll be back on Thursday next week (presently away) so if anyone = has not looked by then, I=E2=80=99ll be able to have a look then. =20 /BGM From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Jan 13 17:05:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9831E38C2; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saper@saper.info) Received: from m.saper.info (m.saper.info [IPv6:2a01:4f8:a0:7383::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "saper.info", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47xKjV0PKPz3JHg; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saper@saper.info) Received: from m.saper.info (saper@m.saper.info [IPv6:2a01:4f8:a0:7383:0:0:0:0]) by m.saper.info (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00DH5eLp072887 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:40 GMT (envelope-from saper@saper.info) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=saper.info; s=Sep2014; t=1578935141; bh=Iz9C38mizgX3q/dpf23V/OFQfpIgf9rLZ2Ly9QAuksc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=IHdrjB2dPJZZqLxbu7ePsSIopLdMXBzhdFxvAegModxThwP1bNNueIABvrUqsk+FK vuWZnd2mQLe/ny/wrhDVuKJfBCA3mIgdVx39HKeVUnfQd6mvN1oCkpPt8ULVatHeTi 4uUvLQhe9u+GVLcfGvXs+LJX4xUEUMjnRISjzzfQ= Received: from localhost (saper@localhost) by m.saper.info (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 00DH5du8072884; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:39 GMT (envelope-from saper@saper.info) X-Authentication-Warning: m.saper.info: saper owned process doing -bs From: Marcin Cieslak To: Ed Maste cc: freebsd-arch , FreeBSD Ports Subject: Re: Retiring GNU objdump 2.17.50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="1563967779-1298768314-1578935139=:4711" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47xKjV0PKPz3JHg X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=saper.info header.s=Sep2014 header.b=IHdrjB2d; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of saper@saper.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:4f8:a0:7383::) smtp.mailfrom=saper@saper.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[saper.info:s=Sep2014]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[saper.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.75)[ip: (-9.76), ipnet: 2a01:4f8::/29(-2.46), asn: 24940(-1.50), country: DE(-0.02)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[saper.info:+]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/29, country:DE]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:54:51 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:51 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:39 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:51 -0000 --1563967779-1298768314-1578935139=:4711 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 9 Jan 2020, Ed Maste wrote: > world or kernel). It is required to build a limited number of ports, > and is used by some developers. My use case is troubleshooting tool - I can always ask somebody on the remote computer to check their binaries with a tool that is in the base system. ("Can you objdump -T this library?", "Can you objdump -R something | grep symbolname?"). I think the first use case can be solved with "nm -D", I don't see the replacement for the latter. Since I also support Mac, Linux users it nice to have one tool that works the same across all the platforms; but give I need to take "otool" for older MacOS into account I don't mind to have something else under a different name, with different options, as long as it is well known and preferably always available for troubleshooting (not an additionally installed something). Haven't worked with llvm-objdump yet. I like the disassembler feature but for myself I can install binutils. Marcin --1563967779-1298768314-1578935139=:4711 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIIOSwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIOPDCCDjgCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADAL BgkqhkiG9w0BBwGgggqQMIIElzCCA3+gAwIBAgIOSBtqCKJEiNNcmz3JSA0w DQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwTDEgMB4GA1UECxMXR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBSb290IENB IC0gUjMxEzARBgNVBAoTCkdsb2JhbFNpZ24xEzARBgNVBAMTCkdsb2JhbFNp Z24wHhcNMTYwNjE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMjQwNjE1MDAwMDAwWjBdMQswCQYDVQQG EwJCRTEZMBcGA1UEChMQR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBudi1zYTEzMDEGA1UEAxMqR2xv YmFsU2lnbiBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMSBDQSAtIFNIQTI1NiAtIEczMIIBIjAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAyrCba00KOKyGuwh9h+/MAcZm ZUF9OxGKA56AADHaDE08rB0WEbgm6J4XvJP3OGQ7cgHdVJu6XMZkRd6EcfjD yRrIwE6oAVWJe57co3gKk/XxvuubSZuUahrcOiv3D2qaHwva4zumubxQQI4f unEzRIJHPiNjaq0cCcZsMcp5pxsEz8aG0sr8Oh80sxKNnzPmuUETLESktfMC pQKHUGmWXLsG6sgCZOezUjDjKpPKW7l4PUt0TEBEyqLhifv9/YPn5C4o10PP daDazZPeKNif2PVQ5u0HRnkFrHh4wmmrMtY22Mse3eR01gD6rEEGWf+gdzuy EQE+ZVlNhCP4gXjdBQIDAQABo4IBZDCCAWAwDgYDVR0PAQH/BAQDAgEGMCcG A1UdJQQgMB4GCCsGAQUFBwMCBggrBgEFBQcDBAYIKwYBBQUHAwkwEgYDVR0T AQH/BAgwBgEB/wIBADAdBgNVHQ4EFgQUlifCwqX3HPgCenpkr2NvMtKYwrEw HwYDVR0jBBgwFoAUj/BLf6guRSSuTVD6Y5qL3uLdG7wwPgYIKwYBBQUHAQEE MjAwMC4GCCsGAQUFBzABhiJodHRwOi8vb2NzcDIuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20v cm9vdHIzMDYGA1UdHwQvMC0wK6ApoCeGJWh0dHA6Ly9jcmwuZ2xvYmFsc2ln bi5jb20vcm9vdC1yMy5jcmwwWQYDVR0gBFIwUDALBgkrBgEEAaAyASgwQQYJ KwYBBAGgMgFfMDQwMgYIKwYBBQUHAgEWJmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmdsb2JhbHNp Z24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAA4IBAQCxh3ekjKKy RrUdfI6D1U7qUggdFLksiU+KiIqJzJG6GXcQ2KiBy2tF3+KYb0IixXMpIVli VXlcD5Vh4tiMxJ4WONMFt3f7/53gSXLf24WMwErubc+mGMzgUGE5HKC98PcK UV/5pPggQdzPxCBNeiXnLU1tCGYhPatFTDhUBGaVhBeuUCbgR9gpXJ9guqrD OVwouKvovdIeI5KEAcoAAiSL6naeLk/GbKUaBFa2RxXC17e+YyBWtWlWDEM3 1V8pUIx76lkO8IJYREhLcg/LnyoYy5wcrzI6pbX2vw1x/jR3GHSC1AEdoqbE xui2XLLlSa6y9yQNgdkPz7GTLmpwIT+dMIIF8TCCBNmgAwIBAgIMGk4Oe/1h 2+wMOby/MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMF0xCzAJBgNVBAYTAkJFMRkwFwYDVQQK ExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTMwMQYDVQQDEypHbG9iYWxTaWduIFBlcnNv bmFsU2lnbiAxIENBIC0gU0hBMjU2IC0gRzMwHhcNMTcwNTI1MDg0NDE2WhcN MjAwNTI1MDg0NDE2WjA8MRkwFwYDVQQDDBBzYXBlckBzYXBlci5pbmZvMR8w HQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhBzYXBlckBzYXBlci5pbmZvMIICIjANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQEFAAOCAg8AMIICCgKCAgEA2sO3aQNus/oe4ZBZ4fu1Y1mzxnUYAkb4k/dw gMFc2Kd0eRoOY0AHj4rTEi/vVzzizxjLbEwXzQ9cBEAu/PqS8WsOmhZXtlfi szPDmP7ZpOwmNTWKSd9O7jHu9uTCGfEOsocQNYH2ULD1gVFkgKb8jHf+3u9d uCzh6qMomTtwLrCGEP70Lq385xUzRaD6qbOeIB99tpzgvMR6Z0GPTt4z8tLM kfdtohq5llwZ5vYnj/hJohVS9iLMQMHW4nuLj/mLZNaYE1CWJBT1rBwn5YPJ uR6811O9eAP7aX4iG8k1jkiBh+QNgGRBIK4GIdqy7IVRhA7v2OlpLYHMk4zP 9Fs3M+56QromVKBnxfzLhuYMUK6ugj9jwskNVitqlEFUeyfgvmR1jnPRp1Nd XGJllTNwGicR8wkaRj14RxfrvTZfwXs8OBODKFupqun/tNzdpOgyHMGQACss 9yv2SnLGCJvJK3rGIdRZEiUhLZH/Ct4L92dBhev+SjUqWKbHb4yIlGMgLdoh nwqatuWw7iyOeInjcinX7ghiIKDWhulUN493Fzl6kaUBtIIcrb7jzZ2pHAQT WUmuVnCTHk6NtoWB09lvuK77fw4GfxLWDFWkBQiJYPVBrmxlrkCKzrWdTMfS W9BiEC10jT1sSimUBIjDz22RkfsApeBJoAIWjiOZogILu9MCAwEAAaOCAdAw ggHMMA4GA1UdDwEB/wQEAwIFoDCBngYIKwYBBQUHAQEEgZEwgY4wTQYIKwYB BQUHMAKGQWh0dHA6Ly9zZWN1cmUuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20vY2FjZXJ0L2dz cGVyc29uYWxzaWduMXNoYTJnM29jc3AuY3J0MD0GCCsGAQUFBzABhjFodHRw Oi8vb2NzcDIuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20vZ3NwZXJzb25hbHNpZ24xc2hhMmcz MEwGA1UdIARFMEMwQQYJKwYBBAGgMgEoMDQwMgYIKwYBBQUHAgEWJmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3Lmdsb2JhbHNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvMAkGA1UdEwQCMAAw RAYDVR0fBD0wOzA5oDegNYYzaHR0cDovL2NybC5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9n c3BlcnNvbmFsc2lnbjFzaGEyZzMuY3JsMBsGA1UdEQQUMBKBEHNhcGVyQHNh cGVyLmluZm8wHQYDVR0lBBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwIGCCsGAQUFBwMEMB0GA1Ud DgQWBBReBINaGUKUo7HCrIjsKLKERu6ooTAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBSWJ8LCpfcc +AJ6emSvY28y0pjCsTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEAC0VK968ySq/6B+Kd ecjVThQOKtVXuG17Krfk0xz7OPYR/V+qZtBFm2Uc6tkUEmAmq3Tyf+SE3TTX Q58eJFq0uCTUhIY714ioJs1uVWBz8rPyJ3swkOfDaUXUxkQsBsf73VfKjUk4 kB5MTrApLYUe35NmEY3FqyyX13elhW1tp864vOKM2Git61cYoRn/bwd/z2JM Zkxwkd5JgvmM+p4Da+WO4CUsGzdrZEH8X/8NQIzWtUDIh7VEQZFX5fot/KvH Am8AajtpmNqTfMyg6LfcfJUXSFqXn/KEWu4Td62vX6Pd70dYKUZxnLwYvGqG A4Ktrp9zyrUzxLbmdaPln7CstjGCA38wggN7AgEBMG0wXTELMAkGA1UEBhMC QkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYtc2ExMzAxBgNVBAMTKkdsb2Jh bFNpZ24gUGVyc29uYWxTaWduIDEgQ0EgLSBTSEEyNTYgLSBHMwIMGk4Oe/1h 2+wMOby/MA0GCWCGSAFlAwQCAQUAoIHkMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG 9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTIwMDExMzE3MDUzOVowLwYJKoZIhvcN AQkEMSIEIIrzwAS0PdarTN9Mgk4L10+o5FDljvLM3rGkSLXeo1Q8MHkGCSqG SIb3DQEJDzFsMGowCwYJYIZIAWUDBAEqMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBFjALBglghkgB ZQMEAQIwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMC AgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIC AHfKcCK1KxdXD2anMwofYAFRcVDcub0/r9LhPRrPSpIROmDwVvPkeeBkK1I/ LnQ2Ra46TLgmmqN1Bw1dyzqHN6tCLO3Gzb8a6N2iGSHc9RwkkyOCrsd05lGO GKU7VEqpRRm46FwAE44kyYxawu0jlse6Q+8kdTqkzC3mPPZVlPCLcs6/+d52 3XrzzALGj2XHfOvKBHY8b9bSMN/9o7nIgikfqqmuL/G0xzb4ayQDHOPT50KL q7Nk4/2L0/H0HMbwwzSyeejDQlxHnLyk3uRyg2kPr8TqkqSvJMz+GpLimLUB njLoloXM0OY5yotq4F0a9yanV/rWnGd8sV8eyjo807yuhO2S8TrGE7nPXN+c YfNGzcSy+l5fabR1brpXwKNKFff8gOEN6DqFuhQZrhuy3zLxgSbwQFkpvZRX gjDi0jm4ZOTY2+FSqFP1AEuDgZhk32sFIO1x2On5saSZPiltYBM5c0DMFuql 6G7n/s83MYQ2+sA6vZPoTXkrHmLp7sAO0v+tAPVKmDqOEucYsB+os4j0LHVo VKNZkDXwO333KQnNxupFUljr25s1wd3xlxqI+2Jragl7w8lmi2CM9VDY6wyb /I6B75CehAn1AGYLrOtiJUSQ1AlOP4qRJ0xg2qleNk5mNM7eCB65K91+JSGR VzRPQodviIEvFDREb7oNhfZU --1563967779-1298768314-1578935139=:4711-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 16 05:19:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC1922989C for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:19:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic313-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic313-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.65.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47ysvZ2tbwz4TCy for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:19:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: k752c50VM1kAP8Z992tPg3nYbOoVBNVJjpI7EFTqw1fimJ4lfx5C11vpO1GEyYE s.httcbSREQI3b1OVkjDvAWUDEwX_Y.ZdU4k5QJg3je3PJpXUPgjoNx3uOEkENPja7UGzcFqiBvV tow270YJJoskq.EcKqpjtHtEjTAyzLNWkKRGiOIHU5Hp_WZv0BNdxYjTi9FlV9bw1tn5nqV40ZgF nmO5KjZ97qzoO9cHKrvDT9FyMc1qeicl8AsudmeGTk1Zc5cuCmJXmiG3bTTxSKDdRaVU1.fKoIxb CPxr.6H3orr5Yhtz6fEhEPIqjwYIohj2w5Ws7kVhU0gncRWd9_mJWI5s9okpEXWyi_Z9Hn9ypSqC mDNEWavhSjJ7WtGpG55K75CKW_qdqQaIzxp3oyHv2MD8ivfa4KjW3.6HgtsmGXIw5C.GUtHG_9V9 4R_SUOJyPQGDa2TRBMzwKLiNGO3amr9CalpM_CrtGq6HTEb1J932uelan2GDXNBKBSK6eKoHwlrR 9CsNzOoC4gLcwjiq6FwdrfOGEK_5LGHJ0.gNPXkVEhjpNNovpSK6tF1QMLQV1tKW5cYNPsyP4zLS Sxri9GSUe_RABZ.3VpXuduJOmDJ_5ikHY2rjC0UddKUbGvulwTi3AaKyLByPlpNZ2nXUanV4S.EO XZc1m1kVyJWjAEA6qTphP96sBAezLpN3ZDFxHggNGZhRmPn6bGHrJOSwV7YGfxDo2UniAJcAEnC0 neLLuGBn1OOIT.RQWRB3mfYxC4GqmL2Xi1UGJXJ404P2qn4YX3p3Ui8uMGJaP.kYttw4rfqehB1r FdgAw8nSjP_pjnl4wm7_CgvqsdK4y8k7ERZAHDU64fWEeDfpohrFV_eg74MBCYtx76py5BYbaAFg e2_U1814A3zNXUKlG2K.CEtUpwC4n5RTR8xKMV2EgXZbzFP3BQu2eMBhp7Nr6lKh47iygzqIvM9k a6kMxUQ1ifTJj0.ZFfTMaDHuA9jgrPbDJ__Pelbs4I9IAsV6gNku5rHJgN3430cgOqSmjd2DWjz9 9JSYxDnA_tdjoZk5.E4Kw1UtuU3mZVw6LjhIIev6NM3V6NJ.lWVh6O3frIVV51spzkk9jh_2pcnD NEDL00j74Tabpa_lsw6eoDElmNuf9kpN9f2bEzQjCiJFrgnvqteuI3ow0WQTgYO2xAXVDht973KD GAD2NLfSifwDUyTIq0YxPLUpCId6Z70C7SbFN1G7DzshdT0ryv7747CgAOaZPxbb7yrE8p4YIaD2 1694xfwU7pMHjeOW.d7MG9fxt0QNy8rCOihk9OtK7igxvkiM0j5CTdIXD1CWzmt1SSE0B3cpVzry pZLtCVrn9_NWbcQe5F.TM1X0wMio7UFUV5zvoPxtY68BhtgHnEBtw8aOxI5y4NHvjfYDMmv1ZbwA d5TH_J8RCAXR1jfaOIskvA2niLTHAg0mA3gqR Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:19:52 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b629dd30e18e418be53f48b249e23900; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:19:51 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts Message-Id: <2C0CC3EC-343D-4068-9E05-856A66FF175C@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:19:51 -0800 To: Ed Maste , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) References: <2C0CC3EC-343D-4068-9E05-856A66FF175C.ref@yahoo.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47ysvZ2tbwz4TCy X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.985,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.59)[0.588,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[84.65.137.98.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/21, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.78), ipnet: 98.137.64.0/21(0.86), asn: 36647(0.69), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:55:29 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:19:56 -0000 Ed Maste emaste at freebsd.org wrote on Thu Jan 16 02:14:58 UTC 2020 : > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > It's not i386 vs amd64 that's the issue. It's the total amount of = RAM. ZFS > > is perfectly happy with i386 installs with enough RAM. We'd catch = most > > sub-optimal cases if we'd offer it only for systems with > ~2-4GB. >=20 > Very good point, defaulting to UFS for <4GB and ZFS for >=3D4GB sounds > decent to me. I'd pick to avoid Rock64, RPi4, etc. in 4 GiByte configurations ending up with ZFS by default, suggesting: UFS for <=3D 4 GiByte and ZFS for > 4 GiByte if 4 GiByte is to the at the boundary. What fraction of the <=3D 4GiByte systems are such contexts? (I'd probably bundle <=3D 4 GiByte PowerPCs with such Arm contexts but they may not add much.) It also might be that the snapshots and release builds might not use the same criteria as the installer defaults. (Only applies to those that end up with such snapshot and release builds. But the RPi4 would seem likely to get such builds someday.) It might be that snapshots and releases would consider how likely uSD cards for the known target cases. (I do not know what the UFS vs. ZFS tradeoffs are for such media issues. This might be an area were PowerPCs with <=3D 4 GiByte is not a match.) A consideration for placing the boundary might be how much extra support configuring might happen on the lists. An example is those trying buildworld buildkernel on these sorts of physically-small systems. Likely such folks will try -j4 just to try to cut the time involved. I'm not sure how well this would go with a default ZFS configuration. (And llvm materials are likely to continue to grow for what it takes to build them, so what might be marginal now later could be a problem.) Which is easier to support on the lists for these sort of contexts, if they are a notable fraction of the <=3D 4 GiByte usage? UFS? ZFS? =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com ( dsl-only.net went away in early 2018-Mar) From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jan 19 08:33:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BCF01F1432 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:33:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [18.222.6.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 480p3766QTz41L7; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:33:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (unknown [18.188.142.31]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F0A867660; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:33:06 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:33:05 +0000 From: Mark Linimon To: Shivank Garg Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea Message-ID: <20200119083305.GB24224@lonesome.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 480p3766QTz41L7 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of linimon@lonesome.com has no SPF policy when checking 18.222.6.11) smtp.mailfrom=linimon@lonesome.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.372,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lonesome.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.20)[ip: (0.02), ipnet: 18.220.0.0/14(0.19), asn: 16509(-1.17), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[11.6.222.18.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.2]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.977,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:18.220.0.0/14, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:55:41 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:33:08 -0000 I've forwarded your email to bz@FreeBSD.org who has investigated this in the past. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 00:58:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D2D223CB5 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:58:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic305-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.64.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4833mJ1lSkz3HJG for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:58:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 1WtQvOMVM1m4Ehq4uCKRcXXuPMmhQEvUMaKnLpWQWukbE19Y746DoSM8OweWQmG _Cg0TA9NGs73hR2DrbDSRu7X9zx0_4DCU5Y69sp4AcJ0Yd4eibLUes9d3GxkQKW3NaVevG713MxG wS_NgpRoUDt4t4tRiUCjDCOCPSrrtRR9MyT8ZQ1QfeFJYet_7Z_hynkO9_m2LHZ7bQgA4TxSCKFT dX0nI3Hc8gFxxGDS_maUgxUsunYtrzIg6s2u_dZabokWz4gaLo1CWpY24WhbOY2reoP1G5LA2g9m VjxsO0B3xZt8FtRAm2n1KqJXZR6djKA9pTW8g6CIaXq3lwaSZGQbxRxK_sts0prK4TpYr8eGy4cE T.E0EX5Kw.PEFMwFGGYsGOj5SS0awLgTDLJSvpHNuDB0ou1XOcll4wrBD0oospafLe4vHcr7FbnT MYXidmQ.mSmPprudDo3CeA5K7IJG8BLuoOwo4rmhfx718PA7nF2He3NZp2cAHmHO1FMecGlveX91 qPf53CqtBtb4odSTXcW_9GKdbonPmiw8OAOBzH9e.A3aCVvv7ApHZCiw0yt92maukKzK1dgSdbBb Di3Ydg4iJXixO49yQ9yQvjq4oSBg9OaNRvoJLwIWj_4F9zYc2veXbXyWvvsKvf0xyJKpeOjBEwOT BwW2vjDM4_X6bn4IZajNEvZsfIQLtUcMf19YynEd8HeNGh4_mpiOoxaNP9Ih6EX3dKdMjbGfnwJP nuD3x.FkDm.Yf9XekXYQFTjB9nN5j7CpchpGVYmvGdHGq3W59e_Qk9pqVMihgxIWnFuYVRNlUHBk 6teGAR0uAXceDSC_KYHiQYzu5vtcb55Al5kTIyElRBw7dB9nScjJWR9WI6ig_8pBSOljXxMkY6PF SXCBlFBjuXj8zOGjpxiMKhwqKhe4b4XF0VMGx.ITp6wdmeau_D5L8T3QJdcULz4HXG10m0N_Mq.U 8iydApJoCl0TrV1MGmosfT7yfGj56x__gXtfIKYAG0c2YdAvpjXZT51tGI07Irtyb6.HZ962Gkp3 2fFuMxXtLE9UIKLNVbA4bl671yllHjRtnComNHlcglFyOxjnblf9JftufK5ByaufGZAoFtYinYh6 GqXTDjlVxd1tUFuQNqIOnUFQp0Dt9RlUzB3PR0z0DL3i9vmsuT8GpwQi7R.MKz8SYxqpC.Ywz3ES d3Fo5AXAhM6oPaoMEmhS5YdSh39I3fEt6ZRGuoYlO7BQXakAc7Z6ph39YMk6qzDqyntlw6b9DLd8 cAiNnrefeqVFNmLTHr8EmiZDjH13dhPXxBMi_syBoIqbC.aQxAK.d.z4THX.Ye8J0EEaY02RBIB_ UyT.GN9A.tbmYa7czpUP0IUxfPu5V1QTTR_xZ3b89zITwmhNsE_gRa.Ol6HM.VQz8OPQAVQpKk.8 FmUBEWdfrE2PpO5_A6GIkPYOnAyURUA24ONNu.J2NJdwxrYnShjX64DvWD5DsDBwYXzw- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:58:05 +0000 Received: by smtp415.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5982548d35b6c5821d977651081cff50; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:58:02 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts Message-Id: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:58:00 -0800 To: Ben Woods , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) References: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256.ref@yahoo.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4833mJ1lSkz3HJG X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.23 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/21, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.38), ipnet: 98.137.64.0/21(0.85), asn: 36647(0.68), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.40)[0.405,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.32)[0.324,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[84.64.137.98.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:55:54 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:58:09 -0000 Ben Woods woodsb02 at gmail.com write on Thu Jan 23 00:07:13 UTC 2020 : > Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > > Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: > msg_partitioning_zfs_help="ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB RAM" > msg_partitioning_ufs_help="UFS is recommended if you have less than 4GB of > RAM" > > There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. > > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > 8GB was recommended by: mike > 16GB was recommended by: cem > > The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some > debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only > systems with MORE THAN 4GB. What of uSD card based systems (for example small ARM boards)? Does the typical performance characteristics of the uSD cards (such as large latencies) have ZFS consequences to avoid? More generally: is there anything besides RAM that has enough use but also has good reason to contribute to a potential choice to avoid ZFS? (I've no clue of uSD card use makes a good example or not, but I wanted something to illustrate the general question.) I do like the choice to just add some quick notes to read instead of detecting and adjusting defaults. [This may not make it to freebsd-arch: it is historically rare that I'd comment there and so I've not tried to be added. Anything I submit there goes through a moderator and I've never objected when one of those rare ones did not go through.] > As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion > (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't prevent > us from committing this help text now). === Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com ( dsl-only.net went away in early 2018-Mar) From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 04:20:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F99A22B41C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:20:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [18.222.6.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4838FJ0Q36z41MM for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:20:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (unknown [18.188.142.31]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4DE513E42; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:20:02 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:20:01 +0000 From: Mark Linimon To: Ben Woods Cc: Mark Millard , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts Message-ID: <20200123042000.GA16137@lonesome.com> References: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256.ref@yahoo.com> <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4838FJ0Q36z41MM X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of linimon@lonesome.com has no SPF policy when checking 18.222.6.11) smtp.mailfrom=linimon@lonesome.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.49)[-0.487,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.20)[ip: (0.02), ipnet: 18.220.0.0/14(0.19), asn: 16509(-1.16), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lonesome.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[11.6.222.18.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.818,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:18.220.0.0/14, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:56:16 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:20:05 -0000 On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:05:19PM +0800, Ben Woods wrote: > I suspect most small arm boards are still typically 32bit arm? No, most have moved to 64-bit. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:02:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791671FE6CF for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:02:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brd@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487GCg2dKmz4BCj for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:02:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brd@FreeBSD.org) Received: from auth1-smtp.messagingengine.com (auth1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.227]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: brd/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 54B3BA487 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:02:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brd@FreeBSD.org) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailauth.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303CD21F1E for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:55 -0500 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrfeeigddugedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhgr ugcuffgrvhhishdfuceosghrugeshfhrvggvuefuffdrohhrgheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhgpdgsshguihhmphdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegsrhgrugdomhgvshhmthhprghuthhhph gvrhhsohhnrghlihhthidqjedtjeeifedvfedvqddukedtieelieekkedqsghrugeppefh rhgvvgeuufffrdhorhhgsehsohdugehkrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id E3983E00A2; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:54 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-781-gfc16016-fmstable-20200127v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <8c122948-010f-4634-94c0-43198da5e586@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2C0CC3EC-343D-4068-9E05-856A66FF175C@yahoo.com> References: <2C0CC3EC-343D-4068-9E05-856A66FF175C.ref@yahoo.com> <2C0CC3EC-343D-4068-9E05-856A66FF175C@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:02:34 -0700 From: "Brad Davis" To: "Mark Millard via freebsd-arch" Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts Content-Type: text/plain X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:02:55 -0000 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, at 10:19 PM, Mark Millard via freebsd-arch wrote: > Ed Maste emaste at freebsd.org wrote on > Thu Jan 16 02:14:58 UTC 2020 : > > > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > It's not i386 vs amd64 that's the issue. It's the total amount of RAM. ZFS > > > is perfectly happy with i386 installs with enough RAM. We'd catch most > > > sub-optimal cases if we'd offer it only for systems with > ~2-4GB. > > > > Very good point, defaulting to UFS for <4GB and ZFS for >=4GB sounds > > decent to me. > > I'd pick to avoid Rock64, RPi4, etc. in 4 GiByte Keep in mind, none of those use the installer so this is moot. Regards, Brad Davis From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:04:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FFF1FEA06 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:04:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound2m.ore.mailhop.org (outbound2m.ore.mailhop.org [54.149.155.156]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487GFl3JZ1z4BT0 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:04:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1580331881; cv=none; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=arc-outbound20181012; b=TJP7O2NtC9nkZZxdk7UjSkOiBqgsKQzYnYYs2K+7ODbxkAGthk1GZEOwA5vdZzaMkIEUCcMOW8Ybs YYZsFAfqIM+7jTMJnQQpUAcYFZZpFCtO5huzI2m1ER6XmJiW3MC28o56PTjIxYouS4Rd7NlL/oA1Hf nva3E4T9lLjh6+nfbMa3vpxqN3jC6BvvW/Ukn8BCkakr9RiZ9Ghsx1CKpHy85k1UNGov9jGOmnNAPh JSbQubuXdMO3XZNTWqC/AO0/LH544iQKxTJqdRJcMhkgN/xQ6+2/tR1IG3Y1PeEkyBks+CpDU2PTkj 8oAN5ja7WW64yuJAA2ZID4etgZYYxVg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=arc-outbound20181012; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:content-type:references:in-reply-to: date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:dkim-signature:from; bh=C7bWcApPG4B2AH1meKozc1wBdciADvBXAbgJg3gxCk4=; b=jcKQamI22sE4LiLCOzz0zXSW+2qNyFuQ6ID1Qe1WfKGQWyHUTWVaw9A5SjdPMhu+crX4C1RAOC1U4 vixy5ovoUJSpm7ue1d6Mrg1eoNVbTF0IEodPOGvRbbweG+DVGbS7ycZxLjV0X1I6beIXZlwkc/ywqj iFRb6PiHOZUnsk58KCW6/Xe4xTmT3ua7C8u4Q2+cedwv7MYhgtWOi/OkZfVLHi5rRVU9Ldxl6amCMb UOEG/P/EbQ/9PnuG1eKgQrav1gahMpBkxV7unOsnwAoU5AZa5v24bhmvDr9yygBG/GX80ezZP0DLp9 /uJDrlyueo+36wNNYM6KemDtJ6ZO7ng== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; outbound4.ore.mailhop.org; spf=softfail smtp.mailfrom=freebsd.org smtp.remote-ip=67.177.211.60; dmarc=none header.from=freebsd.org; arc=none header.oldest-pass=0; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=dkim-high; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:content-type:references:in-reply-to: date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:from; bh=C7bWcApPG4B2AH1meKozc1wBdciADvBXAbgJg3gxCk4=; b=LyMztkbVuh2iU6TwkTq8OATOWB2DKey/CMJG9QaNHhufj9+rv5rI8CG6KCjqMIYV5dWUmvdsv0eSM bG+x42aQWJLsQBg3wK0YjXtrk21TgmitmvbNqjn7/3R8drJNP9XnDv1WWBAEsbRKBBr/4B9OMGYWsy 0JfaCEirqKYEmZy5f0W/Rl2anZpiEMLub1GOvEYmyGfh4grbzEvMfsJKKXQo+IcZnEXwIPwjwe8l60 488r8FB9UFwTWCOyQPblQE9K4Jg09e/+nGeLhYawisKlJyxhx3nz/ae1c1yz7UwtPwjwI491FmJED0 M0d1H7qEv6scfyk64ZA2wM4qP5cv+fg== X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: f6c66409-42da-11ea-9eb3-25e2dfa9fa8d X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound4.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id f6c66409-42da-11ea-9eb3-25e2dfa9fa8d; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:04:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 00TL4dxr017344; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:04:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <914e14637b54721aa32b26071c020c767f249186.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts From: Ian Lepore To: Mark Linimon Cc: freebsd-arch Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:04:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20200123042000.GA16137@lonesome.com> References: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256.ref@yahoo.com> <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> <20200123042000.GA16137@lonesome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ASCII" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.5 FreeBSD GNOME Team Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487GFl3JZ1z4BT0 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.98 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:54.148.0.0/15, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:04:43 -0000 On Thu, 2020-01-23 at 04:20 +0000, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:05:19PM +0800, Ben Woods wrote: > > I suspect most small arm boards are still typically 32bit arm? > > No, most have moved to 64-bit. > > mcl > I'm not sure that's true at all. I'll bet more people are running freebsd on 32 bit arm right now, but the balance is shifting. Plenty of arm32 boards are still being sold, and some new boards are even still being developed. The 32 bit world is already largely oriented towards embedded systems (phones, automobile entertainment systems, point of sale kiosks, that sort of thing), and that isn't likely to go away any time soon. There are also low-cost low-power 64 bit boards intended primarily for embedded systems development and use. Even though they're 64 bit processors, they almost all have either 2 or 4GB of ram. It's not clear to me that the availability of such boards is going to drive 32 bit arm into extinction in the near future. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:11:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7368F1FED8A; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487GPx22T5z4C8F; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (v-critter.freebsd.dk [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD9BA1AF101; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00TLBeFW078427 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:40 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00TLBcgZ078426; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:38 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Paul Mather cc: Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <78424.1580332298.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:38 +0000 Message-ID: <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487GPx22T5z4C8F X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of phk@critter.freebsd.dk designates 130.225.244.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=phk@critter.freebsd.dk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.46 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.914,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.59)[-0.589,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.dk]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.04)[ip: (0.06), ipnet: 130.225.0.0/16(0.07), asn: 1835(0.08), country: EU(-0.01)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:50 -0000 -------- In message , Paul= Mather writes: >On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:24 AM, Robert Clausecker wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> In message , Ed Maste writes: >> >> Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple days to >> build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a lack of >> RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). I plugged in a "WD SSD Passport" USB disk, it supports BIO_DELETE and performs so much better than a SD card, that swapon(8) is a good idea. I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular for educators. We may not want to use them ourselves, but we should keep that part of the on-ramp open, in particular for young people. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:17:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB771FF07E for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:17:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound3d.ore.mailhop.org (outbound3d.ore.mailhop.org [54.186.57.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487GX20f52z4CPZ for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:17:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1580332623; cv=none; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=arc-outbound20181012; b=qcDQFdc9X5DvXPDJlUPbXmrVesHyzL5wwZ7frwbJ9RS63ea5PuQ7yWK1d8agi5ghsvY2uUAErcgjM Y+BK22Vv1JEQJUOtEwALGvfmP0SuptBNJjybxy9B3qE9V4kk0rp9lDRTaiUdaR1tUYLt2A5pfdfurQ fMcGgsKZOlxXf4bzvhPzK6SjFfu9IN0Bx+G2237BnqwKSwk8NsphvUhuCKebR6fk2GiTdow97EB1XN ylN4jLav1rYpaawpCf82i42X3+ZrqEhhCLqQd11grUTDawu/lTKnlF//+ikmxUMdW2BFpW3exM77LY XrlJlGKKaPzdBYFYeNA3r9PBP2IAh0w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=arc-outbound20181012; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:content-type:references:in-reply-to: date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:dkim-signature:from; bh=EXkYvQp3EKW7okOaJuBBFjJEAymxCPfYnES8VswgWhU=; b=NYD9Xeb6iJRUTB2o8X5g9jgbWj2lUNXEAbj4a7vXdL9H54DhyzDdpffHraZShc1rxjzT/0WmiyXYW Gg868s4Rckk7HG7yCo1gFS2vDJ5OYjGFH0i2Gn+avSfGQ85CvlBDu8SsCFWTwdGk6dP63h2KrAkp3S SSpvoNLUZqMpQux/cgOvPdplGWrsKgVILHy1RvQlIvhNbLwgpOZM0vehO9Ety4TTzAaCJxx/en8e0x 363Cuii9pybud8vV445iNu7nJoCO4gOZWIjMVS3wNmfqfoB+M3RriU7xgW4BBFs0V+pZLcOVkcgxpr 9TG8dTa2et9dbUFdPWo6vHRQ3XmrxEQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; outbound3.ore.mailhop.org; spf=softfail smtp.mailfrom=freebsd.org smtp.remote-ip=67.177.211.60; dmarc=none header.from=freebsd.org; arc=none header.oldest-pass=0; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outbound.mailhop.org; s=dkim-high; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:content-type:references:in-reply-to: date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:from; bh=EXkYvQp3EKW7okOaJuBBFjJEAymxCPfYnES8VswgWhU=; b=sgBrswZahs/RIXv/pXXjqHGEwlvw0wlrrlSj6VKdpPoMwZjNgwe5itKI0YcRTNNYtRAu6Vji65FsI kluhE/JFFcQSdeQ4du8KTOqHX+uM9tXLOkMxDojISvbhFl2bV0O6tu//ki9ijHp+ZNXm4V0A/cjbFN 47ihVte898VCZAoD/CwcuGYyR7dWNYmvB9+xaQC0cArDDuBI60pyGSXJkAavVlO0ddUH9wYyZevb03 rJ6onVgfNv+azCAgGxVycqXptLWD4zjoVjhPSeSOQwTFk36PkLt25xpSTzqvIutoFq5PT7lCYe8gyZ Ymd3uv/Muf0BimOl1Ss/V5U5q4vWdgw== X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: affed1d1-42dc-11ea-b80d-052b4a66b6b2 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound3.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id affed1d1-42dc-11ea-b80d-052b4a66b6b2; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:17:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 00TLGx56017397; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:16:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 From: Ian Lepore To: Poul-Henning Kamp , Paul Mather Cc: freebsd-arm , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:16:59 -0700 In-Reply-To: <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ASCII" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.5 FreeBSD GNOME Team Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487GX20f52z4CPZ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.97 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:54.186.0.0/15, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:17:06 -0000 On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 21:11 +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > In message , > Paul Mather writes: > > On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:24 AM, Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp > > > wrote: > > > > In message < > > > > CAPyFy2BXWPVOJo+GOf83sZFrPHE80-QvdHeWrhi+Tdj0KDnThg@mail.gmail.com > > > > >, Ed Maste writes: > > > > > > Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple > > > days to > > > build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a > > > lack of > > > RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). > > I plugged in a "WD SSD Passport" USB disk, it supports BIO_DELETE and > performs so much better than a SD card, that swapon(8) is a good > idea. > > I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. > > RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > for educators. > > We may not want to use them ourselves, but we should keep that > part of the on-ramp open, in particular for young people. > Everybody loves to opine about how valuable rpi support is, but nobody steps up to do the work. (I'm not doing it because I'm firmly among the group who hates the platform, and I also disagree that there is any value to freebsd at all in supporting it. Indeed, quite the opposite, I think trying to support it is more expensive than we can afford and comes at the cost of supporting better hardware.) -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:36:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02751FFB14; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487Gyk20JZz4DYn; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (v-critter.freebsd.dk [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 744511AF101; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00TLaiIV084928 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:44 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00TLahS3084927; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:43 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Emmanuel Vadot cc: Paul Mather , freebsd-arm , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 In-reply-to: <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <84925.1580333803.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:43 +0000 Message-ID: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487Gyk20JZz4DYn X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of phk@critter.freebsd.dk designates 130.225.244.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=phk@critter.freebsd.dk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.917,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.59)[-0.594,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.dk]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.04)[ip: (0.06), ipnet: 130.225.0.0/16(0.07), asn: 1835(0.08), country: EU(-0.01)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:46 -0000 -------- In message <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, Emm= anuel Vadot writes: >> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular >> for educators. > > In what way ? > Real answer only. 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers carry them. 3. Big electronics pushers carry them. In re 1-3: No customs processing of shipment involved. 4. Cost, including shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most organizations. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:42:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75521F8336; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:42:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487H5T3MBXz4FJy; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:42:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 00TLgWBF066162; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:42:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 00TLgV9N066161; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:42:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 In-Reply-To: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:42:31 -0800 (PST) CC: Emmanuel Vadot , Paul Mather , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487H5T3MBXz4FJy X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 69.59.192.140) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.21)[-0.213,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.75)[0.748,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (0.13), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.07), asn: 13868(0.02), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:42:38 -0000 > -------- > In message <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, Emmanuel Vadot writes: > > >> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > >> for educators. > > > > In what way ? > > Real answer only. > > 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational > material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational > courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. As a bonus data point I have seen RPI's in vending machines at universities that have engineering departments. Thats just how "commidity" these items are in the educational world. > 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers carry them. > > 3. Big electronics pushers carry them. You can walk into a Frys and walk out with one! > > In re 1-3: No customs processing of shipment involved. :-) > 4. Cost, including shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most > organizations. Yep. I have no problem if some want to ignore RPI*, but as Poul says FreeBSD does so at its own peril. If its a man power thing lets find it or make it! > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:51:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB3A1F8B26 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:51:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487HHz5sqVz4G3H for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:51:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id c24so790472qtp.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:51:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DnBhOyQmo9upzK/D+E/otEc1ddEjfrFNJx2PZLuFlXw=; b=ccMOkfGmLYf2rvE7WWZWqxQNRfx7a2aZw8Yfd9kfJ+t0or8Sr5GQvLzNVPwOMqewcV VWnrWOI2Ofo0tgjULR4p1qDvBC36KL+XetJQGfXjqM0EM2iVFS9qwqNIR/lMQ67PVykz cP6hrZXalOdpNoirAfDGZ2hlrxAgLWndMYMkXWew371r3FJDBr/yHujeCkx1NrSjmGOk aN/gja/4ptuZPflFHFua1xmHQWONz+fMhpA32paQWXC/es6rSEDZUd4wJCR/wmZakObb AH/I+gdL58Xzov5L1bqgTJL9zfxqywu+6aiG2NetgZXbRLGWNuCA+/rWd/Ju4xLuBOcY Ydog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DnBhOyQmo9upzK/D+E/otEc1ddEjfrFNJx2PZLuFlXw=; b=laDVDr00+zJVzqhQGhL0ZE4/C8Pg1VWYZKh+gUyW1gU5syrfE/znTo7gFZehTw92Fg 3PC41EmaYgV7fii+gOsagrfqyRZKb62AX9xwjxqd4jWBuTa0aRhOpYvTgdLn/cbKpC8g MiI+Dx/I4V7Ixt+w7EFswbds205JwIXF+SLZtIgTJwN2HrORSqgV7LSbDrglYjQduo+9 IhlQhn65LFIr0xHfAU3r8SyRZe7mSLI28tNU0OYen/IPbXVWUUC8rUeVnEIgb84pIV/7 CvYdAB21vf4XylzI8XhZvYFmSfESWgafyxL8UoeqmZmASgShPvroWPPXbpC/MK0eiKMt srVA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7ACMTPj+0n/um8lQUrCL2pboeZTg5hQ58k9BHHkVZn85wyo2K vxnNJS/V6zZVi4ImBdhKYNy+wSdMrU7lKQn+o2MEAs1X X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxiIygw5F2maf6oMQd6z/itAUlO+Ogbq+nWa0I24oRKGTUr1w9fKuAg7P8vuV1IEKQkNPIuMk305xCtqpR5F+0= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:78c:: with SMTP id l12mr1465488qth.187.1580334702355; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:51:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:51:31 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arm , Emmanuel Vadot , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487HHz5sqVz4G3H X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ccMOkfGm; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::833) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.62)[ip: (-9.21), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.03), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:51:44 -0000 On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 2:42 PM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > I have no problem if some want to ignore RPI*, but as Poul says > FreeBSD does so at its own peril. If its a man power thing lets > find it or make it! > There's two issues. One is manpower. There's not too many people that want to hack on it. The second is information: it can be tricky to get from Broadcom which slows down any efforts to make progress. These two issues are interrelated... When it's hard to help out, it's easier to do other things. Ian is a prime example: he's had enough with the crappy docs on what he views as a crappy design so he chooses to spend his time elsewhere. This is his choice, of course. Others have tried to get USB or networking going on RPi4 have run into similar issues and got frustrated and quit out of frustration and inability to get the technical data they need in a form that's useful. So it's easier to work on other ARM and ARM64 platforms where data is available, vendors are more forthcoming and it's easier to get things done w/o all the stress and hassle. It's no different than the bazillion drivers we've written, or not written, over the years based on vendor support (or its lack). So, absent some large FreeBSD user of RPi that can use their business relationships with Raspberry / Broadcom to reduce the friction AND can fund people to improve the port, the situation isn't likely to improve. I sure wish this wasn't the current state of affairs, but sadly it is. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 30 13:07:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685812393A2; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487gcs42RXz45nS; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [194.32.164.27] ([194.32.164.27]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id 00UD7bpV011787; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:38 GMT (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 From: Bob Bishop In-Reply-To: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:37 +0000 Cc: Emmanuel Vadot , Paul Mather , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487gcs42RXz45nS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rb@gid.co.uk designates 194.32.164.250 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rb@gid.co.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.27 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gid.co.uk]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[250.164.32.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-0.57)[ip: (-2.06), ipnet: 194.32.164.0/24(-1.03), asn: 42831(0.32), country: GB(-0.08)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42831, ipnet:194.32.164.0/24, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:42 -0000 Hi, > On 29 Jan 2020, at 21:36, Poul-Henning Kamp = wrote: >=20 > -------- > In message <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, = Emmanuel Vadot writes: >=20 >>> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular >>> for educators. >>=20 >> In what way ? >> Real answer only. >=20 > 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational > material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational > courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. >=20 > 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers carry them. >=20 > 3. Big electronics pushers carry them. >=20 > In re 1-3: No customs processing of shipment involved. >=20 > 4. Cost, including shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most > organizations. RPi zero in particular is cheap enough to treat as a component. > --=20 > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =20 > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by = incompetence. -- Bob Bishop rb@gid.co.uk From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 30 16:30:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC2A23DD22 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 16:30:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487m7P5zxBz4K4p; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 16:30:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-7.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C3D212D5B; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 16:30:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Subject: Re: Removing vpo driver To: Bob Bishop , Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: From: John Baldwin Autocrypt: addr=jhb@FreeBSD.org; keydata= mQGiBETQ+XcRBADMFybiq69u+fJRy/0wzqTNS8jFfWaBTs5/OfcV7wWezVmf9sgwn8TW0Dk0 c9MBl0pz+H01dA2ZSGZ5fXlmFIsee1WEzqeJzpiwd/pejPgSzXB9ijbLHZ2/E0jhGBcVy5Yo /Tw5+U/+laeYKu2xb0XPvM0zMNls1ah5OnP9a6Ql6wCgupaoMySb7DXm2LHD1Z9jTsHcAQMD /1jzh2BoHriy/Q2s4KzzjVp/mQO5DSm2z14BvbQRcXU48oAosHA1u3Wrov6LfPY+0U1tG47X 1BGfnQH+rNAaH0livoSBQ0IPI/8WfIW7ub4qV6HYwWKVqkDkqwcpmGNDbz3gfaDht6nsie5Z pcuCcul4M9CW7Md6zzyvktjnbz61BADGDCopfZC4of0Z3Ka0u8Wik6UJOuqShBt1WcFS8ya1 oB4rc4tXfSHyMF63aPUBMxHR5DXeH+EO2edoSwViDMqWk1jTnYza51rbGY+pebLQOVOxAY7k do5Ordl3wklBPMVEPWoZ61SdbcjhHVwaC5zfiskcxj5wwXd2E9qYlBqRg7QeSm9obiBCYWxk d2luIDxqaGJARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+iGAEExECACAFAkTQ+awCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgID AQIeAQIXgAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BI6RAJ9S97fvbME+3hxzE3JUyUZ6vTewDACdE1stFuSfqMvM jomvZdYxIYyTUpC5Ag0ERND5ghAIAPwsO0B7BL+bz8sLlLoQktGxXwXQfS5cInvL17Dsgnr3 1AKa94j9EnXQyPEj7u0d+LmEe6CGEGDh1OcGFTMVrof2ZzkSy4+FkZwMKJpTiqeaShMh+Goj XlwIMDxyADYvBIg3eN5YdFKaPQpfgSqhT+7El7w+wSZZD8pPQuLAnie5iz9C8iKy4/cMSOrH YUK/tO+Nhw8Jjlw94Ik0T80iEhI2t+XBVjwdfjbq3HrJ0ehqdBwukyeJRYKmbn298KOFQVHO EVbHA4rF/37jzaMadK43FgJ0SAhPPF5l4l89z5oPu0b/+5e2inA3b8J3iGZxywjM+Csq1tqz hltEc7Q+E08AAwUIAL+15XH8bPbjNJdVyg2CMl10JNW2wWg2Q6qdljeaRqeR6zFus7EZTwtX sNzs5bP8y51PSUDJbeiy2RNCNKWFMndM22TZnk3GNG45nQd4OwYK0RZVrikalmJY5Q6m7Z16 4yrZgIXFdKj2t8F+x613/SJW1lIr9/bDp4U9tw0V1g3l2dFtD3p3ZrQ3hpoDtoK70ioIAjjH aIXIAcm3FGZFXy503DOA0KaTWwvOVdYCFLm3zWuSOmrX/GsEc7ovasOWwjPn878qVjbUKWwx Q4QkF4OhUV9zPtf9tDSAZ3x7QSwoKbCoRCZ/xbyTUPyQ1VvNy/mYrBcYlzHodsaqUDjHuW+I SQQYEQIACQUCRND5ggIbDAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BCO8AJ9j1dWVQWxw/YdTbEyrRKOY8YZNwwCf afMAg8QvmOWnHx3wl8WslCaXaE8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 08:30:57 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 16:30:58 -0000 On 1/28/20 9:52 AM, Bob Bishop wrote: > Hi, > >> On 28 Jan 2020, at 00:56, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> Unless there's a concrete objection, and some indication it has been used >> in FreeBSD 12 or later, I plan on removing it after FOSDEM sometime. >> >> This driver is for the ZIP100 drive (the 100MB floppy) connected via a >> parallel port. This hasn't been relevant for 20 years since the industry >> has moved on. The umass driver supports the USB version of the ZIP100 drive >> and I used last summer to recover a dozen zip discs for a friend. This >> provides a migration path for those that may need it for $15-$25 on ebay >> depending on your luck. >> >> Given the lack of changes to this drive, and the massive changes in the >> system since it was written, I'd be greatly surprised if it still worked on >> relevant hardware. >> >> Comments? > > No objection here. > > FWIW the SCSI-connected ZIP100 drive should still work also (got one, haven’t tried it recently). No, that used the wds(4) driver which I removed prior to 12.0. No one tested patches to remove Giant from it when I had posted them. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:29:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A150B1FF565; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:29:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.net) Received: from mx.blih.net (mx.blih.net [212.83.155.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.blih.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487Gp302V4z4D1J; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:29:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.net) Received: from tails.home (lfbn-idf2-1-1164-130.w90-92.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.92.223.130]) by mx.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id d925de75 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:29:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:29:07 +0100 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Cc: Paul Mather , freebsd-arm , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-Id: <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> In-Reply-To: <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487Gp302V4z4D1J X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=bidouilliste.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.net designates 212.83.155.74 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-0.80)[ip: (-6.24), ipnet: 212.83.128.0/19(1.99), asn: 12876(0.23), country: FR(0.00)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[bidouilliste.net,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.128.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:10:08 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:29:16 -0000 On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:38 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > -------- > In message , Paul Mather writes: > >On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:24 AM, Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>> In message , Ed Maste writes: > >> > >> Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple days to > >> build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a lack of > >> RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). > > I plugged in a "WD SSD Passport" USB disk, it supports BIO_DELETE and > performs so much better than a SD card, that swapon(8) is a good idea. > > I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. Show me the TRM. Please show me a way to do this without looking at linux GPL driver. > RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > for educators. In what way ? Real answer only. > > We may not want to use them ourselves, but we should keep that > part of the on-ramp open, in particular for young people. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:46:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 855421F8862; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:46:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.net) Received: from mx.blih.net (mx.blih.net [212.83.155.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.blih.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487HBJ2c8Lz4Fm8; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:46:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.net) Received: from tails.home (lfbn-idf2-1-1164-130.w90-92.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.92.223.130]) by mx.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id a03ce1e4 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:46:46 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:46:46 +0100 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Cc: Paul Mather , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-Id: <20200129224646.57f8da72786afedcddd6fe75@bidouilliste.net> In-Reply-To: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487HBJ2c8Lz4Fm8 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=bidouilliste.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.net designates 212.83.155.74 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.22 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-0.92)[ip: (-6.81), ipnet: 212.83.128.0/19(1.98), asn: 12876(0.23), country: FR(0.00)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[bidouilliste.net,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.128.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:10:24 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:46:49 -0000 On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:43 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > -------- > In message <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, Emmanuel Vadot writes: > > >> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > >> for educators. > > > > In what way ? > > Real answer only. > > 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational > material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational > courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. Might be true for some countries. > 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers carry them. At their peril. > 3. Big electronics pushers carry them. > > In re 1-3: No customs processing of shipment involved. > > 4. Cost, including shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most > organizations. To all those points: you might be right, but without documentation on the hardware (ALL hardware present in the SoC) we will never be relevent on RPI. And having the doc will never happens, we all shoud focus on other SoCs where docs is available. > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 22:03:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CE01F90FD for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:03:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from greg@unrelenting.technology) Received: from out.migadu.com (out.migadu.com [91.121.223.63]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.migadu.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487HYj41H0z4Ghw for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from greg@unrelenting.technology) Received: (Migadu outbound); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:03:35 +0000 Received: from wms1-eu-central.migadu.com (wms1-eu-central.migadu.com [172.104.244.218]) by out.migadu.com (Haraka/2.8.16) with ESMTPSA id 8A0D711F-DCBB-48C3-960F-CB596B2EEADD.1 envelope-from (authenticated bits=0) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 verify=FAIL); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:03:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:03:34 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: RainLoop/1.12.1 From: greg@unrelenting.technology Message-ID: <85883a5a552a2d28b279e9281da660a7@unrelenting.technology> Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , "Poul-Henning Kamp" Cc: "freebsd-arm" , "Emmanuel Vadot" , "Robert Clausecker" , "freebsd-arch" In-Reply-To: <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; bh=vUK+M+piiMjAQeehjpt31tI8y6yeiL8YfTKXZki2jmg=; c=relaxed/simple; d=unrelenting.technology; h=from:subject:date:to; s=default; b=gNDBvQoGwBbYY0mrjjtXlCG9It5F1j1j8jJM1u1OpLUyj6/0muu1vT1MLUM1/Vk1gm/R1N0pnVdWB+cUX1Sq/W2RU6GKQQqY0X94h4ByEN0J65+gJPd0HPtAmdS7pUrqDcmgPHkjFoTvvVdD7sibgS89r/wSX0yOScwo0uWRHKI= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487HYj41H0z4Ghw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=unrelenting.technology header.s=default header.b=gNDBvQoG; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=unrelenting.technology; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of greg@unrelenting.technology designates 91.121.223.63 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=greg@unrelenting.technology X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[unrelenting.technology:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.84)[ip: (-9.80), ipnet: 91.121.0.0/16(-1.48), asn: 16276(2.07), country: FR(0.00)]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:91.121.223.63]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[unrelenting.technology:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[unrelenting.technology,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[63.223.121.91.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[63.223.121.91.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:91.121.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:10:45 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:03:39 -0000 January 30, 2020 12:42 AM, "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote:=0A=0A>> --------=0A>> In message <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8= 509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, Emmanuel Vadot writes:=0A>> =0A>> RPi's a= re a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular=0A>> for edu= cators.=0A>> =0A>> In what way ?=0A>> Real answer only.=0A>> =0A>> 1. Sch= ools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational=0A>> mater= ial, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational=0A>> courses and= materials, pretty much ready to go.=0A> =0A> As a bonus data point I hav= e seen RPI's in vending machines at=0A> universities that have engineerin= g departments. Thats just how=0A> "commidity" these items are in the educ= ational world.=0A> =0A>> 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers= carry them.=0A>> =0A>> 3. Big electronics pushers carry them.=0A> =0A> Y= ou can walk into a Frys and walk out with one!=0A> =0A>> In re 1-3: No cu= stoms processing of shipment involved.=0A> =0A> :-)=0A> =0A>> 4. Cost, in= cluding shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most=0A>> organizations.= =0A> =0A> Yep.=0A> =0A> I have no problem if some want to ignore RPI*, bu= t as Poul says=0A> FreeBSD does so at its own peril. If its a man power t= hing lets=0A> find it or make it!=0A=0APSA: with the RPi 4, the distincti= on between proper SBSA/SBBR machines and the Pi can get quite small.=0ATh= e new SoC uses a GIC instead of a custom interrupt controller, so it is p= ossible to describe=0Aall the basics of the system using generic ACPI. An= d upstream TianoCore EDK2 is doing just that.=0AFor example, even the XHC= I USB controller can be a good old PNP0D10:=0Ahttps://github.com/tianocor= e/edk2-platforms/commit/0d4b36888b5e614afef0361fda6e899b85999a52=0A=0AThe= organization for this work is https://github.com/pftf=0A=0APeople have a= ctually got Windows (!!!) to run using this:=0Ahttps://twitter.com/WhatAi= ntInside/status/1221151430788161537=0A=0AAnd this doesn't mean we have to= kill the support for all the extra Pi features.=0AFor example, see how N= etBSD has added ACPI attachment for the Broadcom mailbox:=0Ahttps://githu= b.com/NetBSD/src/commit/12e2bb1bfb04328865863ea0d970e323ec0470e5 From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 22:34:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0002F1F9CE1 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:34:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonc@chen.org.nz) Received: from mail-ot1-x343.google.com (mail-ot1-x343.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::343]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487JFK0cg7z4HsS for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonc@chen.org.nz) Received: by mail-ot1-x343.google.com with SMTP id 77so1245990oty.6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:34:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chen-org-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Y+7pJ+8CkCg55ZFQHh/zpSdeIF71+LHphJP6XSp1kEI=; b=Jsuh0S9fknKs/eImO5fwCsbP6gs5baayLMA/wej81gqDt+fj2rr9KKt4M841U4VaD/ IeGMkXfE2TqaGM9+lJuOXBMKgDvUy0oaFQo0isqDUazVL+FZX2P34+sg+55hPdvG7Ac2 sdKLgZ/BrjvLIP3XUXuOFIkwLhILOqvNxmSnx4uHocGg916CV8EB6a+ElmaVtaqTAqSE 5V5pRpbuNgHqrraTAyKSvj23NkELcst0kszWE2TeN2KAWOC4B1su+fkGRrPM/3t3hO9v Q+nCfH4BZCTfUwG/WeyYeLke0O0dNg79wDdixTHc5ycHhCVvaf84yYeXolkuJe6nZdh0 QKqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y+7pJ+8CkCg55ZFQHh/zpSdeIF71+LHphJP6XSp1kEI=; b=guvYNJsilxLQ0NG+SRMADknw892EF56CP/FCWu6lKyTzR8AbxSjz8r2ovnenHBgWcq aIpsJOBnZVdgNn4uzS8+bs9I6TixfiWompJV/BIOJ6v0jCWb9Hs8hCNk8yLjoGfzlkBj umrUeSH/EhtT4z7vb2T9kq5OazcsoG1dLgEHiW2441t7K7bxbMckSnAhq4nnyOmfqig1 bEbWyQmXgWuYcZ67Fg3acVcItEOoSXTJ+0c3YMXNZO+gy9fnT5uYY9mD+IE56Kb3Ap0U dZxBM8cVThxXQqN0ae2OFDRxDDUuE6WSgn+d41PcmBhkwnthzaj/N2RH3gvhUq54+tiv exnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWzLVqwkzHldRIcAvsWEqWj7siJBXnuPqWRWSEYx9mE66IbfsMg ssZ7g5pqVmlJ2GXy38IFCCoE8aVsVyjTa0cP9UdjxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz08I3Qljs+v5r0NVlQw66LfuORCgHlVEkdECbsqlOUAcp/0uY9H6iuowD8voKZvkdhgsA0o7BG43DsXw8kMcg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1608:: with SMTP id g8mr1160406otr.169.1580337267112; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:34:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Jonathan Chen Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 11:34:10 +1300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arm , Emmanuel Vadot , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487JFK0cg7z4HsS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=chen-org-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Jsuh0S9f; dmarc=none; spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::343 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of jonc@chen.org.nz) smtp.mailfrom=jonc@chen.org.nz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[chen-org-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[chen.org.nz]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[chen-org-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.20)[ip: (2.87), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.03), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:11:22 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:34:30 -0000 On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 10:42, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > In message <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, Emmanuel Vadot writes: > > > > >> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > > >> for educators. > > > > > > In what way ? > > > Real answer only. > > > > 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational > > material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational > > courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. > > As a bonus data point I have seen RPI's in vending machines at > universities that have engineering departments. Thats just how > "commidity" these items are in the educational world. Secondary schools in NZ (ages 13-17) use RPi platforms as their introduction to maker-systems. While there are better boards available, RPi platforms are easier for the general public to obtain. Having good support on the RPi is crucial for introducing beginners to FreeBSD. As it is, Linux is currently the preferred O/S due to better support on RPI3. Just my 2-cents. -- Jonathan Chen From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 30 00:03:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5ED1FD118; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:03:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [18.222.6.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487LCY1Fhjz4P11; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:03:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (unknown [18.188.142.31]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04D2213AEC; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:03:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:03:02 +0000 From: Mark Linimon To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Paul Mather , freebsd-arm , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-ID: <20200130000301.GA8280@lonesome.com> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487LCY1Fhjz4P11 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of linimon@lonesome.com has no SPF policy when checking 18.222.6.11) smtp.mailfrom=linimon@lonesome.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.83)[-0.834,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.19)[ip: (0.05), ipnet: 18.220.0.0/14(0.20), asn: 16509(-1.14), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lonesome.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.46)[-0.463,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[11.6.222.18.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:18.220.0.0/14, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:11:40 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:03:05 -0000 On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 09:11:38PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. Assumes facts not in evidence. No one is stopping anyone from working on it. As Warner notes, it's not a trivial task, so there are frustrations; also, several people have retired from the field of battle with arrows in their backs. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 30 17:28:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1378C23F8E2 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:28:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487nPX12y0z4Nxj for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:28:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id h23so3748560qkh.0 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:28:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tvvyBIjcj7JaJ2Ip+b4WbEkrR+sigMw3r7HTeUmzNfo=; b=Uc7CXWym2exI2TwYNz+vG7iUxGggDikFrFmvherSnxZWHc//qZf0FniF0FzzIKyKiU y/y+cJuRQderFQq1uwZ5H7L13mn6irettJCWWAVSgvMG5MSdjgS2tUC2C6U12gx9M3BG v+d7GcLZOjPv9Dd9YvhwuW0fByfiVkfwk8Kpp/8/s7JIucMdJS+BQQkMBJwg7IDwzv8A sxerhif4+/41Q7v2ZXgT2q0HuPWwIeBTdw2J+PEFc2zLpS6NArJdbfhDSGWP6dV5d+IL 0U9uPZqULLX3AjAHIQI1Z2wx9ZzgyKLgz+hHTCISj23vs28CZWlV6xhuly8FxeGXptrW xwkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tvvyBIjcj7JaJ2Ip+b4WbEkrR+sigMw3r7HTeUmzNfo=; b=dIW+POeJTR2N3VRrulg5mPpmPRvIQlgbbmAm946fsw57DGbLUVXyt4JZWO7ieLLp1N gcrWN5TOOP7HtYLRAECnUu0Wh4tEu8wAKPpH4+GChDw9jqHUsT34xPMwZcbDjoEzU76o Hz9YOsX4/uFkHM20FXZGtdwdHAfO+OLQ23kvYcjWsq3iGmAmig8wMuqdbuftWOHHEpv7 GpxwBvyIFYVLFVZ3o/pka9sPRWcRQzYKuveK531J+nXEOInhx9Bz9HPCMczKZCKkjX3q 2Ayiip+OWkOFZU9FS4Cbsk7vR1+lPgmJcNY28ijSJTpEm1fv2pjP6Ymj1h3Y/+WyhKfb ggQg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXPyn2MgJWbsfAxqExyoV6rj5daswqf9zMr9/DQNAJZL1qS7zke 74ua3K0sbGP8n0A5sdc84kLbVdUimBeX3HIkTzXAXWQ8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyfAR9Oc4uAWLjD4+2XW/NCJsHvNKaOPjIOgukRYyhhpHyMczPrh7ZUEbD6Qi7nk0HLC60anGR/Zr/IEZkc2Dw= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6187:: with SMTP id v129mr6165793qkb.495.1580405294878; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:28:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200130000301.GA8280@lonesome.com> In-Reply-To: <20200130000301.GA8280@lonesome.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 10:28:02 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Mark Linimon Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Paul Mather , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487nPX12y0z4Nxj X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Uc7CXWym; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::731) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.61)[ip: (-9.21), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.03), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:28:17 -0000 On Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 10:11 AM Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 09:11:38PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. > > Assumes facts not in evidence. > > No one is stopping anyone from working on it. > > As Warner notes, it's not a trivial task, so there are frustrations; > also, several people have retired from the field of battle with arrows > in their backs. > Some have done so several times.. Warner mcl > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 30 23:01:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F51B22A67E for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 23:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487wpP0PtBz3JSb; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 23:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-7.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B669415C9D; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 23:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Subject: Re: CFT: Open Crypto Framework Changes: Round 1 To: Patryk Duda , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: From: John Baldwin Autocrypt: addr=jhb@FreeBSD.org; keydata= mQGiBETQ+XcRBADMFybiq69u+fJRy/0wzqTNS8jFfWaBTs5/OfcV7wWezVmf9sgwn8TW0Dk0 c9MBl0pz+H01dA2ZSGZ5fXlmFIsee1WEzqeJzpiwd/pejPgSzXB9ijbLHZ2/E0jhGBcVy5Yo /Tw5+U/+laeYKu2xb0XPvM0zMNls1ah5OnP9a6Ql6wCgupaoMySb7DXm2LHD1Z9jTsHcAQMD /1jzh2BoHriy/Q2s4KzzjVp/mQO5DSm2z14BvbQRcXU48oAosHA1u3Wrov6LfPY+0U1tG47X 1BGfnQH+rNAaH0livoSBQ0IPI/8WfIW7ub4qV6HYwWKVqkDkqwcpmGNDbz3gfaDht6nsie5Z pcuCcul4M9CW7Md6zzyvktjnbz61BADGDCopfZC4of0Z3Ka0u8Wik6UJOuqShBt1WcFS8ya1 oB4rc4tXfSHyMF63aPUBMxHR5DXeH+EO2edoSwViDMqWk1jTnYza51rbGY+pebLQOVOxAY7k do5Ordl3wklBPMVEPWoZ61SdbcjhHVwaC5zfiskcxj5wwXd2E9qYlBqRg7QeSm9obiBCYWxk d2luIDxqaGJARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+iGAEExECACAFAkTQ+awCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgID AQIeAQIXgAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BI6RAJ9S97fvbME+3hxzE3JUyUZ6vTewDACdE1stFuSfqMvM jomvZdYxIYyTUpC5Ag0ERND5ghAIAPwsO0B7BL+bz8sLlLoQktGxXwXQfS5cInvL17Dsgnr3 1AKa94j9EnXQyPEj7u0d+LmEe6CGEGDh1OcGFTMVrof2ZzkSy4+FkZwMKJpTiqeaShMh+Goj XlwIMDxyADYvBIg3eN5YdFKaPQpfgSqhT+7El7w+wSZZD8pPQuLAnie5iz9C8iKy4/cMSOrH YUK/tO+Nhw8Jjlw94Ik0T80iEhI2t+XBVjwdfjbq3HrJ0ehqdBwukyeJRYKmbn298KOFQVHO EVbHA4rF/37jzaMadK43FgJ0SAhPPF5l4l89z5oPu0b/+5e2inA3b8J3iGZxywjM+Csq1tqz hltEc7Q+E08AAwUIAL+15XH8bPbjNJdVyg2CMl10JNW2wWg2Q6qdljeaRqeR6zFus7EZTwtX sNzs5bP8y51PSUDJbeiy2RNCNKWFMndM22TZnk3GNG45nQd4OwYK0RZVrikalmJY5Q6m7Z16 4yrZgIXFdKj2t8F+x613/SJW1lIr9/bDp4U9tw0V1g3l2dFtD3p3ZrQ3hpoDtoK70ioIAjjH aIXIAcm3FGZFXy503DOA0KaTWwvOVdYCFLm3zWuSOmrX/GsEc7ovasOWwjPn878qVjbUKWwx Q4QkF4OhUV9zPtf9tDSAZ3x7QSwoKbCoRCZ/xbyTUPyQ1VvNy/mYrBcYlzHodsaqUDjHuW+I SQQYEQIACQUCRND5ggIbDAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BCO8AJ9j1dWVQWxw/YdTbEyrRKOY8YZNwwCf afMAg8QvmOWnHx3wl8WslCaXaE8= Message-ID: <090ad112-dcca-6cb1-d6bf-fc7fb67ebedf@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 15:01:44 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 23:01:49 -0000 On 1/9/20 7:53 AM, Patryk Duda wrote: > Hi John, > > I tested ocf_rework branch on device which has cesa support. Output from > "cryptocheck -vz -a all" doesn't differ when kernel was compiled from > ocf_rework and from e0f7c88b6c (commit before changes). In both cases I can > get the same number of interrupts generated by cesa using "vmstat -i". > Nevertheless when I'm running IPSec (Strongswan acts as IKE daemon) > software crypto is used instead of cesa. Performance is poor and no cesa > interrupts are generated. When running kernel built from commit e0f7c88b6c > IPSec works fine. Strongswan is configured to use only AES128 CBC + SHA256 > HMAC. This combination is supported by cesa, confirmed by cryptocheck. In > my opinion something between IPSec and cesa is broken. Hmm, thanks for testing. I just rechecked and ccr(4) and aesni(4) both work with IPsec. The sessions created by the "eta" cryptocheck tests should match the sessions IPsec creates that cesa would have a chance to test. Ah, I guess they might differ in the csp_auth_mlen parameter. Can you add some printfs to see if cesa_auth_supported is failing, and if so is it due to not liking the value of csp_auth_mlen? I added some pretty conservative checks on valid mlen values, but I could probably relax those to allow any length up to the size of the hash. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 31 05:22:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB2E233708 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 05:22:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from BATV+64ee32028001ca15ca6b+6004+infradead.org+hch@bombadil.srs.infradead.org) Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:e::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4885G76frvz47JN for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 05:22:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from BATV+64ee32028001ca15ca6b+6004+infradead.org+hch@bombadil.srs.infradead.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=bombadil.20170209; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version :References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=86V/UelUsvCR1wrPOSiLZEcT71VrmfmVnuLgD8GCUro=; b=PYzEXcVCmpvbwN1aX2CAHY/EC 7/gLX2itK1KHhM0g+Cl4haH4EfDf3Pg0TUkSaGAeMJNU3fzFEv76cupc5rBtsu/VUt9LhKzW/W9dp vViC+oGBdU69rBIGKYzb2v+CqtbcY00OsMsBQOoyZOeG496MyDB9hvTBelLLHJ+aPwK36ivaj+Q1I ZObssbNiwUYoOpYMvQLRvOQhDyC600PrnUK+vLfxAp3U/5PV/YhiA5/+UeKx9onkfLQ7ky9/ohSzo WfvT4vM2DrCo3nyEIj/t1H3AUGKJWfTHACciPCX0F09y2HU0XlArTRTJIi4oWBuovgH+jKBljLVIL +cataztDg==; Received: from hch by bombadil.infradead.org with local (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1ixOlY-0007jM-PP; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 05:22:52 +0000 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 21:22:52 -0800 From: Christoph Hellwig To: Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Removing vpo driver Message-ID: <20200131052252.GA28376@infradead.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by bombadil.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4885G76frvz47JN X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=infradead.org header.s=bombadil.20170209 header.b=PYzEXcVC; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of BATV@bombadil.srs.infradead.org has no SPF policy when checking 2607:7c80:54:e::133) smtp.mailfrom=BATV@bombadil.srs.infradead.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.29 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[3.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.e.0.0.0.4.5.0.0.0.8.c.7.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.6.2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[infradead.org:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hch@infradead.org,BATV@bombadil.srs.infradead.org]; IP_SCORE(-3.55)[ip: (-9.33), ipnet: 2607:7c80:54::/48(-4.67), asn: 7247(-3.68), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7247, ipnet:2607:7c80:54::/48, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hch@infradead.org,BATV@bombadil.srs.infradead.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.79)[-0.789,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[infradead.org:s=bombadil.20170209]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[64ee32028001ca15ca6b,6004,infradead.org,hch]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[infradead.org.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.6.2]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.85)[-0.852,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[infradead.org]; DBL_ABUSE_MALWARE(7.50)[infradead.org.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.dbl.dq.spamhaus.net]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 05:22:57 -0000 On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 05:56:35PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > Greetings, > > Unless there's a concrete objection, and some indication it has been used > in FreeBSD 12 or later, I plan on removing it after FOSDEM sometime. > > This driver is for the ZIP100 drive (the 100MB floppy) connected via a > parallel port. This hasn't been relevant for 20 years since the industry > has moved on. The umass driver supports the USB version of the ZIP100 drive > and I used last summer to recover a dozen zip discs for a friend. This > provides a migration path for those that may need it for $15-$25 on ebay > depending on your luck. > > Given the lack of changes to this drive, and the massive changes in the > system since it was written, I'd be greatly surprised if it still worked on > relevant hardware. FYI, when I suggested to remove the Linux driver people that are still using it did speak up (and helped porting it to the modern Linux block device framework). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 30 17:29:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C8D23FA62; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:29:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chmeeedalf@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-xc42.google.com (mail-yw1-xc42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487nR52rQYz4P72; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:29:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chmeeedalf@gmail.com) Received: by mail-yw1-xc42.google.com with SMTP id a125so2342178ywe.12; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=f/MVfk9W0CvJafRsRh+8lu15jyi71GVsBIEBrfgziqo=; b=ayb3sddVBC0HG3pgZNpwYP5HYOMmxGEzwoD5mz2rpWZHsjsKBJvX3anBE3noV+HcN+ VcHhWozRuNjz+uXCXefJEsdbWHR3uUPF+8ouUG9SjLmFbAsC7FfXa6sYnhyfjc7r0A3+ fei0Wj9UXLFot66xsOlWKXbI0+Wxrup90FItk49zj4PFvA6YaAo+ArFRm/8Bl2GEGNAE N4jfsp54KYt0PW7djE6JwRuzy4bC4OeAD8ZJQzTgdb5T4/DkKtZVjXopdxAPSgzcse0A UD/cPuYb1UAxH7RKHE0aLttGTykIOygJ6FY0Ism5dPDM5QXMVHXhvjtN63KhbiGlZ+WN /QpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=f/MVfk9W0CvJafRsRh+8lu15jyi71GVsBIEBrfgziqo=; b=Leo54f5tHi/SrGwizTduBwVYv6DUlwWRQyQGi04+QLMTJ16wiU5JsvxC+TmWPchUkj MYsAVol3dDfgCDnFWVLlfEZN89AS/eflV8KQo3lg2/QPLuP0xzPxEQSPuEHfFhUVo9nZ xds4NQPAAj+ofZNUp5tfmG2CqAxMDN/6rDk5bkgobi+HBO80dKPCnJyRWrvUdN1PouHm x1q9VbHVvx3WhWtjMGD89SDJalOUWwIdxYz6K5y12GB8A9fPihBTQlK2XKiveH+pYxVt V3g17kMTOnp7dGq8WRWkbQWM6FklF69+P6wIAcO1ScuIkFKQ3VFmS52lIPU8iy96OrmR 05Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWbuoTtKSewIn34vt53Y/x8psgOuUWhgzYXhXgsd8/FCzUMT4PM eWFE7U8awyOE9KS/NLHP8OI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyTmgDi7LwA+q9G/w3dRHHTdn+MeradsXBuQsrf7N9yS3UznFNi7vAr92aDW2xg5/FGE5/AIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a0d:c444:: with SMTP id g65mr4356049ywd.119.1580405375859; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from titan.knownspace (173-19-125-130.client.mchsi.com. [173.19.125.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t140sm2721880ywe.28.2020.01.30.09.29.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:29:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 11:29:32 -0600 From: Justin Hibbits To: Bob Bishop Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arm , Emmanuel Vadot , Robert Clausecker , Paul Mather , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-ID: <20200130112932.46ccb9fe@titan.knownspace> In-Reply-To: References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; powerpc64-portbld-freebsd13.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487nR52rQYz4P72 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ayb3sddV; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of chmeeedalf@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=chmeeedalf@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[130.125.19.173.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.11), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.03), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:30:33 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:29:38 -0000 On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:37 +0000 Bob Bishop wrote: > Hi, > > > On 29 Jan 2020, at 21:36, Poul-Henning Kamp > > wrote: > > > > -------- > > In message > > <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, > > Emmanuel Vadot writes: > >>> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in > >>> particular for educators. > >> > >> In what way ? > >> Real answer only. > > > > 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational > > material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational > > courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. > > > > 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers carry them. > > > > 3. Big electronics pushers carry them. > > > > In re 1-3: No customs processing of shipment involved. > > > > 4. Cost, including shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most > > organizations. > > RPi zero in particular is cheap enough to treat as a component. This is probably the most compelling argument on this thread for finding someone with somewhat deep pockets to get involved. Broadcom won't listen to educators, hackers, or hobbyists, they'll only listen to large piles of money. Someone (company) needs to be in a position to tell Broadcom "Hey, we want to use the RPi Zero (or the SoC in it) in our product, running FreeBSD. Help us out." Otherwise, they ignore us at no peril to them. Saying "We ignore it at our peril" makes great rhetoric, but it's not at all actionable. Without usable documentation, there's no way anyone would do the work needed. > > > -- > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by > > incompetence. > > -- > Bob Bishop > rb@gid.co.uk - Justin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 31 07:49:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6DB236D60; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:49:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thj@freebsd.org) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4888W537scz4FFb; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:49:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thj@freebsd.org) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819437DD; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 02:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 02:49:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=1tHXFk Q/hEr0rdHzLoZzjIP89R+nd5Qoc7Jo2Z7061A=; b=o0KWOn1kHQrHq6aBNKyqm6 wWYKHnEY9t/FEoE+z9CQvOqAXzZLbnVlphPtMPUoD1W+0f9MXSNJpk8VXqhMYlQU L/tW+EpUkNRpPS2ORAF16agGA5n9SDeXp+9oOeEP+XiwoeFEnxqS7xdCwFAhMsue hXDnlMmlzdN+WC97rCHF9wN39FGogY+AbIXohKbdVAD74Zky1ywBvFguoX974vjt wQtcn6AdkpyCnZ2fnu2d/Ov3O2X5DnEuFr/pA7251+8ryALKcuh5YqmQRLM9AyK5 Nr+dHb8q4vZR/cZHl8T3/qvhw3ZbOn8ABJCm6QoEFsOgmwK4CXqwPcAuSL3ZblUw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrfeelgddutdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne gfrhhlucfvnfffucdlfedmnecujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjsehttdertddttddv necuhfhrohhmpefvohhmucflohhnvghsuceothhhjhesfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgheqne cuffhomhgrihhnpehfrghrnhgvlhhlrdgtohhmnecukfhppedufeejrdehtddrudejrddu vdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehthh hjsehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Received: from tom-desk.erg.abdn.ac.uk (tom-desk.erg.abdn.ac.uk [137.50.17.12]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0A24E328005D; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 02:49:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:48:38 +0000 From: Tom Jones To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Paul Mather , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-ID: <20200131074838.GA91179@tom-desk.erg.abdn.ac.uk> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4888W537scz4FFb X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.95 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.972,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:49:21 -0000 On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:29:07PM +0100, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:38 +0000 > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > > > -------- > > In message , Paul Mather writes: > > >On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:24 AM, Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > > > >> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > >>> In message , Ed Maste writes: > > >> > > >> Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple days to > > >> build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a lack of > > >> RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). > > > > I plugged in a "WD SSD Passport" USB disk, it supports BIO_DELETE and > > performs so much better than a SD card, that swapon(8) is a good idea. > > > > I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. > > Show me the TRM. > Please show me a way to do this without looking at linux GPL driver. > > > RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > > for educators. > > In what way ? > Real answer only. I am not pro-pi, but ease of availability in education is a valid point. I work for a University and we have to buy through vetted suppliers, Farnell have an education front end called onecall that we use a lot for electronics and components. Right now they have 50000 raspberry pi 4's [1] available, I suspect I could get enough for a class with a days turn around. Other boards are not the same, we tried to buy the macchiatobin a few years ago and were unable to get a delivery date that was acceptable. However, I agree with manu, without documentation this is a moot point. I don't see a university (or secondary school) investing the time (money) to support the pi, a FreeBSD developer might. We need an interested FreeBSD developer and they need documentation for us to have a hope of supporting the board. [1]: https://onecall.farnell.com/buy-raspberry-pi?ICID=I-HP-PP-PI-3a-1783488 - [tj] From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 31 13:19:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46CBD23FDB8; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:19:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 488HrL156yz4bR1; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:19:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00VDJbok026909 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:19:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00VDJaiq026908; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:19:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:19:36 +0100 From: Robert Clausecker To: Emmanuel Vadot Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Paul Mather , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-ID: <20200131131936.GA26194@fuz.su> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 488HrL156yz4bR1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of fuz@fuz.su has no SPF policy when checking 2001:41d0:8:e508::1) smtp.mailfrom=fuz@fuz.su X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(1.40)[ipnet: 2001:41d0::/32(4.93), asn: 16276(2.07), country: FR(0.00)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[fuz.su]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.993,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:2001:41d0::/32, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 13:19:47 -0000 On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 10:29:07PM +0100, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:11:38 +0000 > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > > > -------- > > In message , Paul Mather writes: > > >On Dec 4, 2019, at 4:24 AM, Robert Clausecker wrote: > > > > > >> On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > >>> In message , Ed Maste writes: > > >> > > >> Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple days to > > >> build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a lack of > > >> RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). > > > > I plugged in a "WD SSD Passport" USB disk, it supports BIO_DELETE and > > performs so much better than a SD card, that swapon(8) is a good idea. > > > > I will also repeat again: We ignore the RPi4 at our peril. > > Show me the TRM. > Please show me a way to do this without looking at linux GPL driver. > > > RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in particular > > for educators. > > In what way ? > Real answer only. For example, as a student with an interest in UNIX systems programming, I cannot justify buying a “real” ARM64 device on my budget for what I want to do with it. However, an RPi is quite affordable and thus pretty much the only way I can reasonably use FreeBSD on ARM64 (and I really want). > > We may not want to use them ourselves, but we should keep that > > part of the on-ramp open, in particular for young people. > > > > -- > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > > -- > Emmanuel Vadot Yours, Robert Clausecker -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 31 17:57:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112FB246E31 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:57:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 488Q0q6mg8z40Bn; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-7.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98D6E1E765; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Subject: Re: CFT: Open Crypto Framework Changes: Round 1 From: John Baldwin To: Patryk Duda , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <090ad112-dcca-6cb1-d6bf-fc7fb67ebedf@FreeBSD.org> Autocrypt: addr=jhb@FreeBSD.org; keydata= mQGiBETQ+XcRBADMFybiq69u+fJRy/0wzqTNS8jFfWaBTs5/OfcV7wWezVmf9sgwn8TW0Dk0 c9MBl0pz+H01dA2ZSGZ5fXlmFIsee1WEzqeJzpiwd/pejPgSzXB9ijbLHZ2/E0jhGBcVy5Yo /Tw5+U/+laeYKu2xb0XPvM0zMNls1ah5OnP9a6Ql6wCgupaoMySb7DXm2LHD1Z9jTsHcAQMD /1jzh2BoHriy/Q2s4KzzjVp/mQO5DSm2z14BvbQRcXU48oAosHA1u3Wrov6LfPY+0U1tG47X 1BGfnQH+rNAaH0livoSBQ0IPI/8WfIW7ub4qV6HYwWKVqkDkqwcpmGNDbz3gfaDht6nsie5Z pcuCcul4M9CW7Md6zzyvktjnbz61BADGDCopfZC4of0Z3Ka0u8Wik6UJOuqShBt1WcFS8ya1 oB4rc4tXfSHyMF63aPUBMxHR5DXeH+EO2edoSwViDMqWk1jTnYza51rbGY+pebLQOVOxAY7k do5Ordl3wklBPMVEPWoZ61SdbcjhHVwaC5zfiskcxj5wwXd2E9qYlBqRg7QeSm9obiBCYWxk d2luIDxqaGJARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+iGAEExECACAFAkTQ+awCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgID AQIeAQIXgAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BI6RAJ9S97fvbME+3hxzE3JUyUZ6vTewDACdE1stFuSfqMvM jomvZdYxIYyTUpC5Ag0ERND5ghAIAPwsO0B7BL+bz8sLlLoQktGxXwXQfS5cInvL17Dsgnr3 1AKa94j9EnXQyPEj7u0d+LmEe6CGEGDh1OcGFTMVrof2ZzkSy4+FkZwMKJpTiqeaShMh+Goj XlwIMDxyADYvBIg3eN5YdFKaPQpfgSqhT+7El7w+wSZZD8pPQuLAnie5iz9C8iKy4/cMSOrH YUK/tO+Nhw8Jjlw94Ik0T80iEhI2t+XBVjwdfjbq3HrJ0ehqdBwukyeJRYKmbn298KOFQVHO EVbHA4rF/37jzaMadK43FgJ0SAhPPF5l4l89z5oPu0b/+5e2inA3b8J3iGZxywjM+Csq1tqz hltEc7Q+E08AAwUIAL+15XH8bPbjNJdVyg2CMl10JNW2wWg2Q6qdljeaRqeR6zFus7EZTwtX sNzs5bP8y51PSUDJbeiy2RNCNKWFMndM22TZnk3GNG45nQd4OwYK0RZVrikalmJY5Q6m7Z16 4yrZgIXFdKj2t8F+x613/SJW1lIr9/bDp4U9tw0V1g3l2dFtD3p3ZrQ3hpoDtoK70ioIAjjH aIXIAcm3FGZFXy503DOA0KaTWwvOVdYCFLm3zWuSOmrX/GsEc7ovasOWwjPn878qVjbUKWwx Q4QkF4OhUV9zPtf9tDSAZ3x7QSwoKbCoRCZ/xbyTUPyQ1VvNy/mYrBcYlzHodsaqUDjHuW+I SQQYEQIACQUCRND5ggIbDAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BCO8AJ9j1dWVQWxw/YdTbEyrRKOY8YZNwwCf afMAg8QvmOWnHx3wl8WslCaXaE8= Message-ID: <1a9aff1f-9ed4-5f51-9456-7bcdccd98678@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:57:28 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <090ad112-dcca-6cb1-d6bf-fc7fb67ebedf@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:57:32 -0000 On 1/30/20 3:01 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > On 1/9/20 7:53 AM, Patryk Duda wrote: >> Hi John, >> >> I tested ocf_rework branch on device which has cesa support. Output from >> "cryptocheck -vz -a all" doesn't differ when kernel was compiled from >> ocf_rework and from e0f7c88b6c (commit before changes). In both cases I can >> get the same number of interrupts generated by cesa using "vmstat -i". >> Nevertheless when I'm running IPSec (Strongswan acts as IKE daemon) >> software crypto is used instead of cesa. Performance is poor and no cesa >> interrupts are generated. When running kernel built from commit e0f7c88b6c >> IPSec works fine. Strongswan is configured to use only AES128 CBC + SHA256 >> HMAC. This combination is supported by cesa, confirmed by cryptocheck. In >> my opinion something between IPSec and cesa is broken. > > Hmm, thanks for testing. I just rechecked and ccr(4) and aesni(4) both work > with IPsec. The sessions created by the "eta" cryptocheck tests should match > the sessions IPsec creates that cesa would have a chance to test. Ah, I guess > they might differ in the csp_auth_mlen parameter. > > Can you add some printfs to see if cesa_auth_supported is failing, and if so > is it due to not liking the value of csp_auth_mlen? I added some pretty > conservative checks on valid mlen values, but I could probably relax those > to allow any length up to the size of the hash. After looking further, I'm pretty sure this was the issue since SHA2 256 would use half of the hash which is not 96 bits. I've pushed a fix to the branch that should address this. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 1 06:59:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5F3244602; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:59:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 488lLz6XTXz4D2H; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:59:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.antonovs.family (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33C6138B9F; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:59:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.antonovs.family ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.antonovs.family [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 3keZ1dQ7MbPl; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:59:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.antonovs.family (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7213138B9A; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:59:14 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.antonovs.family C7213138B9A DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=D65AA412-CB7F-11E9-A561-802C9D403B77; t=1580540354; bh=L4+eC2pZS+kJRdp3MsarzkqT6M4/LW6Zl4u5jhxBREY=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:MIME-Version; b=fx/7EHolbdPxm6si0yRDQHVju0HzDjrisLLRYpqgq02lU+SPOtVxAS79AEcnbaHdc gLvyFMUA5tPIF2oUMQKSPb+mAjGGzD/HyAas/AJGdzVOFcVUJNCLYagAWTAXvqb8v9 nyXPlRueEWeNrNc7JSfHg2p611fwRtVzCBgyVwlHl3E2Zq/LFny8Q4vLkn1UNl8ZEK EI2nrQi9wdkdlMubCUA3gL7ptNFXkbs9dEcRoDq2kA7txhZzkZACu2fmD4aBFh48pZ YJlwL9iFjCthFdR/TAoe4AVLyW6bmi33eQRT45aueYCeqwHcTfy4dx8ayoGomVsmqN 7rcvAyp2scsNg== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at antonovs.family Received: from mail.antonovs.family ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.antonovs.family [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id jIoz8Ay2Hd0r; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:59:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [74.85.93.130]) by mail.antonovs.family (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D1D4138B8D; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:37:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:37:08 -0800 From: Ihor Antonov To: Justin Hibbits Cc: Bob Bishop , freebsd-arm , Paul Mather , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arch , Emmanuel Vadot , Robert Clausecker Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-ID: <20200131203708.e5q3rij53jzr4req@sea-ll-10936> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> <78425.1580332298@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net> <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> <20200130112932.46ccb9fe@titan.knownspace> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200130112932.46ccb9fe@titan.knownspace> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 488lLz6XTXz4D2H X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=antonovs.family header.s=D65AA412-CB7F-11E9-A561-802C9D403B77 header.b=fx/7EHol; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=antonovs.family; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ihor@antonovs.family designates 100.25.240.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ihor@antonovs.family X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[antonovs.family:s=D65AA412-CB7F-11E9-A561-802C9D403B77]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-3.16)[ip: (-8.70), ipnet: 100.24.0.0/13(-4.02), asn: 14618(-3.04), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[antonovs.family:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[antonovs.family,none]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 06:59:24 -0000 On 2020-01-30 11:29, Justin Hibbits wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:07:37 +0000 > Bob Bishop wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > On 29 Jan 2020, at 21:36, Poul-Henning Kamp > > > wrote: > > > > > > -------- > > > In message > > > <20200129222907.3ccaf4c23fe8509e3f9cdfe4@bidouilliste.net>, > > > Emmanuel Vadot writes: > > >>> RPi's are a LOT easier to get hold of for hackers and in > > >>> particular for educators. > > >> > > >> In what way ? > > >> Real answer only. > > > > > > 1. Schools can get them through their usual suppliers of educational > > > material, with a pretty decent discount, and with educational > > > courses and materials, pretty much ready to go. > > > > > > 2. Most "maker-space" atuned electronics pushers carry them. > > > > > > 3. Big electronics pushers carry them. > > > > > > In re 1-3: No customs processing of shipment involved. > > > > > > 4. Cost, including shipping is below "trivial" threshold in most > > > organizations. > > > > RPi zero in particular is cheap enough to treat as a component. > > This is probably the most compelling argument on this thread for > finding someone with somewhat deep pockets to get involved. Broadcom > won't listen to educators, hackers, or hobbyists, they'll only listen to > large piles of money. Someone (company) needs to be in a position to > tell Broadcom "Hey, we want to use the RPi Zero (or the SoC in it) in > our product, running FreeBSD. Help us out." Otherwise, they ignore us > at no peril to them. > > Saying "We ignore it at our peril" makes great rhetoric, but it's not > at all actionable. Without usable documentation, there's no way anyone > would do the work needed. A good alternative to RPi are Pine64 devices. Same price level, open hardware, specs (apart from broadcom wifi), and the company is very interested in growing BSD support https://www.pine64.org/ ---- Ihor Antonov