From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Apr 6 20:33:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2622B27AFC6 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 20:33:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from neel@neelc.org) Received: from rainpuddle.neelc.org (rainpuddle.neelc.org [66.42.69.219]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48x2Kw276Pz4YmZ for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 20:33:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from neel@neelc.org) Received: from mail.neelc.org (rainpuddle.neelc.org [IPv6:2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622]) by rainpuddle.neelc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55D20B2690 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 13:32:58 -0700 From: Neel Chauhan To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4.1 Message-ID: X-Sender: neel@neelc.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48x2Kw276Pz4YmZ X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=neelc.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of neel@neelc.org designates 66.42.69.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=neel@neelc.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.11 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-3.31)[ip: (-9.83), ipnet: 66.42.64.0/20(-4.91), asn: 20473(-1.77), country: US(-0.05)]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[neelc.org,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:66.42.64.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 20:33:09 -0000 Hi freebsd-hackers@, I have one patch for the ipfw userland tool: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 This patch adds the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 aliases for src-ip/dst-ip commands respectively in IPFW. Could someone please commit this patch? -Neel Chauhan === https://www.neelc.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Apr 7 08:32:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E6E2AE78A for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:32:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from forward102p.mail.yandex.net (forward102p.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48xLHk4FPfz4HZH for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:32:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from mxback6g.mail.yandex.net (mxback6g.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:167]) by forward102p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 197FE1D408B2; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 11:32:15 +0300 (MSK) Received: from sas2-e7f6fb703652.qloud-c.yandex.net (sas2-e7f6fb703652.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c14:4fa6:0:640:e7f6:fb70]) by mxback6g.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id gxHPDsaepr-WFg0Nino; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 11:32:15 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1586248335; bh=oRgD73p5HDfBErQBqnyI61QXSQCmMKoRbq4sOy9NLPg=; h=In-Reply-To:From:Date:References:To:Subject:Message-ID; b=s3nwqPQvtaPlyGatzjcB4lczD4UWz6x25IclLnAqtMTKpU9ZPiJkidwc800rtjnsS 2c4kcAmShy6D1KaE4rSV2a+Mr59UwH8bZO0c4x2/uyUgCeHeo3k3V63vv9DGuv0z/L 2VZ3yII1+Im8uqujKXlq/3QRVYt92YmktApkQe0M= Received: by sas2-e7f6fb703652.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id yf6Jm5xeXU-WE2GWqtt; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 11:32:14 +0300 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch To: Neel Chauhan , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" Openpgp: id=E6591E1B41DA1516F0C9BC0001C5EA0410C8A17A Autocrypt: addr=bu7cher@yandex.ru; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBEwBF1kBCADB9sXFhBEUy8qQ4X63Y8eBatYMHGEFWN9ypS5lI3RE6qQW2EYbxNk7qUC5 21YIIS1mMFVBEfvR7J9uc7yaYgFCEb6Sce1RSO4ULN2mRKGHP3/Sl0ijZEjWHV91hY1YTHEF ZW/0GYinDf56sYpDDehaBF5wkWIo1+QK5nmj3vl0DIDCMNd7QEiWpyLVwECgLX2eOAXByT8B bCqVhJGcG6iFP7/B9Ll6uX5gb8thM9LM+ibwErDBVDGiOgvfxqidab7fdkh893IBCXa82H9N CNwnEtcgzh+BSKK5BgvPohFMgRwjti37TSxwLu63QejRGbZWSz3OK3jMOoF63tCgn7FvABEB AAG0JUFuZHJleSBWLiBFbHN1a292IDxidTdjaGVyQHlhbmRleC5ydT6JATgEEwECACIFAkwB F1kCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEAHF6gQQyKF6qmYIAI6ekfm1VA4T vqankI1ISE6ku4jV7UlpIQlEbE7/8n3Zd6teJ+pGOQhN5qk8QE7utdPdbktAzi+x7LIJVzUw 4TywZLXGrkP7VKYkfg6oyCGyzITghefQeJtr2TN4hYCkzPWpylkue8MtmqfZv/6royqwTbN+ +E09FQNvTgRUYJYTeQ1qOsxNRycwvw3dr2rOfuxShbzaHBB1pBIjGrMg8fC5pd65ACH5zuFV A0CoTNGMDrEZSfBkTW604UUHFFXeCoC3dwDZRKOWJ3GmMXns65Ai5YkA63BSHEE1Qle3VBhd cG1w0CB5FBV3pB27UVnf0jEbysrDqW4qN7XMRFSWNAy5AQ0ETAEXWQEIAJ2p6l9LBoqdH/0J PEFDY2t2gTvAuzz+8zs3R03dFuHcNbOwjvWCG0aOmVpAzkRa8egn5JB4sZaFUtKPYJEQ1Iu+ LUBwgvtXf4vWpzC67zs2dDuiW4LamH5p6xkTD61aHR7mCB3bg2TUjrDWn2Jt44cvoYxj3dz4 S49U1rc9ZPgD5axCNv45j72tggWlZvpefThP7xT1OlNTUqye2gAwQravXpZkl5JG4eOqJVIU X316iE3qso0iXRUtO7OseBf0PiVmk+wCahdreHOeOxK5jMhYkPKVn7z1sZiB7W2H2TojbmcK HZC22sz7Z/H36Lhg1+/RCnGzdEcjGc8oFHXHCxUAEQEAAYkBHwQYAQIACQUCTAEXWQIbDAAK CRABxeoEEMihegkYCAC3ivGYNe2taNm/4Nx5GPdzuaAJGKWksV+w9mo7dQvU+NmI2az5w8vw 98OmX7G0OV9snxMW+6cyNqBrVFTu33VVNzz9pnqNCHxGvj5dL5ltP160JV2zw2bUwJBYsgYQ WfyJJIM7l3gv5ZS3DGqaGIm9gOK1ANxfrR5PgPzvI9VxDhlr2juEVMZYAqPLEJe+SSxbwLoz BcFCNdDAyXcaAzXsx/E02YWm1hIWNRxanAe7Vlg7OL+gvLpdtrYCMg28PNqKNyrQ87LQ49O9 50IIZDOtNFeR0FGucjcLPdS9PiEqCoH7/waJxWp6ydJ+g4OYRBYNM0EmMgy1N85JJrV1mi5i Message-ID: <49c316d5-73e1-a5df-cd15-a35cc9e61420@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 11:28:33 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WWnkvGw20lH54RMG6LthxvtOPY69bFW11" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48xLHk4FPfz4HZH X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.ru header.s=mail header.b=s3nwqPQv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bu7cher@yandex.ru designates 2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:102 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bu7cher@yandex.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.10 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yandex.ru]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a02:6b8:0:1000::/52]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.ru:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.52), ipnet: 2a02:6b8::/32(-4.77), asn: 13238(-3.85), country: RU(0.01)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yandex.ru]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:2a02:6b8::/32, country:RU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yandex.ru.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.ru:s=mail]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/mixed,text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.0.1.0.7.b.8.0.0.0.0.0.1.4.7.2.2.7.4.1.0.0.0.0.8.b.6.0.2.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 08:32:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WWnkvGw20lH54RMG6LthxvtOPY69bFW11 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="E8cfFSNKS6iyq4joPWQXuObtAfT58lTSq"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" To: Neel Chauhan , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <49c316d5-73e1-a5df-cd15-a35cc9e61420@yandex.ru> Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch References: In-Reply-To: --E8cfFSNKS6iyq4joPWQXuObtAfT58lTSq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06.04.2020 23:32, Neel Chauhan wrote: > Hi freebsd-hackers@, >=20 > I have one patch for the ipfw userland tool: > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 >=20 > This patch adds the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 aliases for > src-ip/dst-ip commands respectively in IPFW. >=20 > Could someone please commit this patch? Can you describe what is the benefit to have all these aliases, when after adding the rule you will still see other name. I think this makes it more confusing. --=20 WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov --E8cfFSNKS6iyq4joPWQXuObtAfT58lTSq-- --WWnkvGw20lH54RMG6LthxvtOPY69bFW11 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/ iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE5lkeG0HaFRbwybwAAcXqBBDIoXoFAl6MObEACgkQAcXqBBDI oXoqHAf9FljJj9VyUllmoZjivDgbgGB8/hSlQJg6YIY77634uYC8zYTJvdkmTPm+ q1Pyy0nvo08iYH7rp9L6y+RDDGZBAHZno7ovI7kNNannJGBYFgsw9ofsW1WWs6cc VtL8KPPE/JBknsQbNGoXxnuRKn7DWnRTvIsRwLkOagkudA+ATE9X1PLxQSXgIubV hpQSYTwadoGnG7Ts8If68mwPpMt7dPtQbPSmSdaGAgc9imhxbMf7O3xuz3KT0o5a hW9HX6qffaoAQddMXcpZoANx6/PfPMQM7Q6y6rdrno01eY7wA3seq5UC6RSQjkOW jcgVUSBHPzBPlRhr7EsaBM6o163dJQ== =pywg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WWnkvGw20lH54RMG6LthxvtOPY69bFW11-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Apr 7 12:31:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944032B587E for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48xRbK35Hyz4Yp7; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from onlyone.not-for.work (onlyone.not-for.work [IPv6:2a01:4f8:201:6350::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: lev/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 357591E07C; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.23.230] (unknown [89.113.128.32]) (Authenticated sender: lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) by onlyone.not-for.work (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DF046A08; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:31:06 +0300 (MSK) Reply-To: lev@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Neel Chauhan , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <49c316d5-73e1-a5df-cd15-a35cc9e61420@yandex.ru> From: Lev Serebryakov Autocrypt: addr=lev@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFKbGksBEADeguVs+XyJc3mL3iiOBqDd16wSk97YTJYOi4VsHsINzJr09oFvNDiaDBIi fLn2p8XcJvehcsF2GSgrfXfw+uK4O1jyNIKJmiYA0EtE+ZbRtvDrrE0w6Q8+SDeKA21SWh3Y vSQ0DJUontbgW55ER2CbEiIUTIn34uQ0kmESAaw/v5p/9ue8yPTmURvv130FqPFz8VPzltqL NxyGt54TxPfKAzAHEIwxlEZ63JOwzloKh1UDBExcsf9nJO08/TAVgR5UZ5njFBPzaaquhRoP qPJLEQQDqxPIlvMNtHKf7iIebE4BHeqgCdJA0BoiR6gpa0wlsZtdrTPK3n4wYSphLvGbhfOZ YW/hbcu7HYS/FImkVxB3iY17kcC1UTnx4ZaYeASPBGOOPbXky1lLfmDGWIFT//70yx+G17qD OZzF1SvJJhGvh6ilFYaWMX7T+nIp6Mcafc4D7AakXM+XdubNXOMlCJhzPcZ0skgAEnYV587w V7em5fDVwQccwvtfezzqKeJAU5TGiywBHSR5Svzk2FwRNf6M//hWkpq0SRR63iOhkHGOAEBi 69GfEIwH2/w24rLxP0E+Hqq8n+EWNkPatw1Mhcl5PKkdvGCjJUaGNMkpBffjyYo254JXRscR eEnwdIkJt4ErDvjb2/UrOFq31wWMOiLzJeVchAgvTHBMRfP9aQARAQABzShMZXYgU2VyZWJy eWFrb3YgPGxldkBzZXJlYnJ5YWtvdi5zcGIucnU+wsGwBBMBCABDAhsDBwsJCAcDAgEGFQgC CQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4ACGQEWIQT5bRygtfQxi2dLMwrqsDxYv9xHjwUCW/03kQUJDwW3xgAh CRDqsDxYv9xHjxYhBPltHKC19DGLZ0szCuqwPFi/3EePHxkP+wWNrAyks2fQctY/Gl7TMh+Y Q9uX0hAuZ2Vvi0LswBl/R85SsS7IvI9b3ogOWA8CAlHAxkvgH6sWrwRTNcCPS1MzulYxS914 0CSkdwwbv1JyDOOWYU6s8PfT9+BZr+9eNXStmEdEL5XcA1k2YncQtlR3m+oLkqlAOtteZWti pitMIX9BGYIVKyl0t0RnIx+m/QPVGU9gu02j0I3NSRnKQPyFxZqYK0nPBu+FKaEhIAqdKPOv GL4/ijansdiWO3mXy18G0Mkr8yYRSidpGgXGY6lmGzQ3R6ZS30bLI8DkskOOvfErwhZv5dH5 w4+JH5sQ7bIL5HEXs//ZU9UzMdQwcURMjcFfKGyfL0hSLRqzP8m7SL1k9ZL161OQ6C5zVO/M bSCmeeLkbfOj1NW1ZIv6UjVVWE/LS4+gqg/04C+Y24vj+7vMpBVEevdwmIEdmVciFudklcnN omuocb29GKbquRZRDGiE+mhqkwmp5e59AnePp3+AvkewSCsXlR1sfjEP/Tn5OsYerJ7eAAOj DjxO374TAqJG5ftW4BA/nVmx9FGKV1/A9Yc1UuH6LdQfLf7pmTck1Cxg4kdH+3qKGD63sAR0 Wh27XDjnBKXJUN7J+nctWMZJMvw4OhTXdTyVhWt6USKEzw8M5plY4sFqxBEAe8igQXlq1Xjd ISV7wYhT4l3FzsFNBFKbGksBEAC0a9wfjo2P3JyT7Lc+QlbFVshGbSbazb4ma7QYG5IZZD5v fLBFkePoG6cnrn3WCXp4A43hszAynCwe4eXyAkv4+gPF3ZSeNE5Wz3zYG+jh2nm2iGCkyaVy kfbA+2chor2DKH5tHpuNMBlF+wSJHZKJmlo/sFIktAnV1NBVg4/cL+9/hIpvl82cl3hYCD7/ e7/qRE+w38CpAAzn65FvbODn7xlY3fsJt+cHPBJ4EBM9KnTwcce+F+72RQMZQEl7vIAwSRmL dgZHN0MFC533l62SVoKjT0eaOOIBrvesmojhWjfwugibXr+WRF/tGcW77Bxwe2eQLbEVESqW eMORxRxocx7Q7aACoHmf4G4U1Vzx7zUEfNfHjfjZeQVfAURf/MoUelZSW/BmMIfKCg3lRlWA t+Pq2h2UADPVqAZze45beE/c8z8LZsOZiGoRhYL8NSg6+ziLTdmYLWdtFGAuZhqOtNp5h6tG j21OksBotcaIa5YjbCmmnImIjGlSBkUKvIhq/RXth5b2gNwaQdu+Yv4AlZVHRsuVywL/skDF L5+We11bDK6MQ5PzvmntRJcgbyoisn1hiV04OV1LpJJMkJn1j8VlBqDQNT/z+BjB0ru/0anv +5uLj7v0ck06rEo4yiXT/ZAcBM76j7V7FaGbkoba6bUUCQ2H5YYBOKpikjCnpwARAQABwsGT BBgBCAAmAhsMFiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48FAlv9N7IFCQ8Ft+cAIQkQ6rA8WL/c R48WIQT5bRygtfQxi2dLMwrqsDxYv9xHj3CnD/9btCtkcphRYRUe08tUyVwzV/syDCdiUhF7 8jqDKTC+3zuyrFJi7t4fF9follHYz1Ri5RixxJHnuDFcq7ZTOprPYqO8QhckLAJOy5dmORDX 2guEA+y5zDYBwwjpio9dtnuE7QyHyMx4nMPq8O/HfO+6dDEZChkrGvcG9FTI7s0JhsDs3xxw jcROZ2OP0lNu2571ZpR4YuzMUOIhOaQBIF2wrTvLjKUsAnNQYK9gsFTeDHRsE4HZLxJvEdiZ CWN7COi9un4xtP4Khc3Fmn6ANEyh0bIgx1Eii2RGINuA2XRVYhPRJLUZRSVQcrND9k9S+m+T oaqz9JgFLusFA1KhdeYnE1bojpq1U1bsmEicLW2QfEGVumKTgUrTsno0cVPH73KDILFvHA0D 8t4UaQveRTRUVdHZ02IBVt655Q8Xq1TkHJ7l+2Ckso5IBujWD74QpSRzzffn/ihhEExwYSTj FSs0C/OgU+EDZbcq2SWu4n1OGsW337/80HnJKVWBPAZYy4EmiyQSY05MG/fj9RA9Qi4TjFLD LrIf6dFAmiiIwWjlAKiyyUk+XDJXrc1L2VhcHqfdBY4I/qwV1YAI1QI4W/i6TstB1j0GwKa3 ZORwu4eahL5+9R6xBedhXZpCL0dyKuI8iPaC8npaOCJoL8+l4+KXR/PKt8b8kzIcvSpyCZii PQ== Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:30:59 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <49c316d5-73e1-a5df-cd15-a35cc9e61420@yandex.ru> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qqeeXeDNanuhBu80GKrMwhrDP6qafrmmI" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 12:31:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qqeeXeDNanuhBu80GKrMwhrDP6qafrmmI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="V4og1aXbEJz7UZ74IzElza23x2Om1x5W8" --V4og1aXbEJz7UZ74IzElza23x2Om1x5W8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07.04.2020 11:28, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: >> I have one patch for the ipfw userland tool: >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 >> >> This patch adds the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 aliases for >> src-ip/dst-ip commands respectively in IPFW. >> >> Could someone please commit this patch? >=20 > Can you describe what is the benefit to have all these aliases, when > after adding the rule you will still see other name. I think this makes= > it more confusing. I think, {src|dst}-ip without version should exist only for backward compatibility and, maybe, produce warnings. Why? symmetry & consistency. And equal length of fields in rules for different versions, too :-) Also, there are confusion with me/me4/me6. When `src-ip` is really `src-ip4`, what does `me` mean? `me4`? or `me4 OR me6`? --=20 // Lev Serebryakov --V4og1aXbEJz7UZ74IzElza23x2Om1x5W8-- --qqeeXeDNanuhBu80GKrMwhrDP6qafrmmI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48FAl6McoNfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEY5 NkQxQ0EwQjVGNDMxOEI2NzRCMzMwQUVBQjAzQzU4QkZEQzQ3OEYACgkQ6rA8WL/c R4/O5BAAiqVRFKqGBoLNIBCSgNNu8jyk/RHP1aIXMD4eyreaOovDQcPD0tvBNcA2 36fFwCST9wPNlfvQfRP4DdEafS8LcbUfsn4jxSTlST4mjkdcKiVkk/iTR8WA3K/v kkG3lNiIGyOyMMHqmddq2Jb5GomFyI7Nw5sJmsoKSJ4j0O4Z/Axc3ZEqO2Rf3SRZ C22LfpLpUlVeZ4drmr3sP3G9QjHUz8S9Sxz6DG0Lb6TIE5EWaqnUhpFSjmSBrcFO klz6jIiykXNEt6Hc5MH66PTF2s0UhF1tn3ALB3SD+ysyLUznQ+wxHc7LPLGzMOcA cqQirFNE0lGCKREVyAu+VKEj36EjK2AllTmZv0BoeD8ImhJaIdnVaUeh9o2cdSpr EszBuZYuRpx0vXgYAFljASO/1xDgY0Tf8iQfXfqCRD6kYVEf7N7Ha3RgBzbSvnbF LAfaWYVfuJUWaYnQMv7jpFC+d+kyh5vF/gc1Civ+fU80RxKUBFpQwPnBHAraKMN8 QDWUsvNtRhpc1RsNfFTM2jsTU2ULkm6to2Mo6w9FrJoZccCth7DrLsJbcxvFjuO7 sTJHgmTxWOU79RsMoruGaBuALcJxPu6eWtXtwRHgdGfZzhNCtKnGa+TJ8Esb8sAb bMfCSDrgz1VrBch4xAbfMP0bctySP7GG+mP7zAF3yW2McUImz5c= =yaM9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qqeeXeDNanuhBu80GKrMwhrDP6qafrmmI-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Apr 7 17:35:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C40A277244 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 17:35:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48xZKz3zqdz410R; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 17:35:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 037HZ13H093415; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 10:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 037HZ1mK093414; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 10:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch In-Reply-To: To: lev@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 10:35:01 -0700 (PDT) CC: "Andrey V. Elsukov" , Neel Chauhan , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48xZKz3zqdz410R X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 17:35:04 -0000 > On 07.04.2020 11:28, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > > >> I have one patch for the ipfw userland tool: > >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 > >> > >> This patch adds the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 aliases for > >> src-ip/dst-ip commands respectively in IPFW. > >> > >> Could someone please commit this patch? > > > > Can you describe what is the benefit to have all these aliases, when > > after adding the rule you will still see other name. I think this makes > > it more confusing. > I think, {src|dst}-ip without version should exist only for backward > compatibility and, maybe, produce warnings. But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of changing the "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 and making src-ip/dst-ip a backwards compatible alias. > > Why? symmetry & consistency. And equal length of fields in rules for > different versions, too :-) > > Also, there are confusion with me/me4/me6. When `src-ip` is really > `src-ip4`, what does `me` mean? `me4`? or `me4 OR me6`? The parts of the rule are not cross applied so this is a non-question, me4 with a src-ip6 matches 0 packets no mater what the values are. One could write syntax checkers to flag this NOP condition. > -- > // Lev Serebryakov -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Apr 7 18:46:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F54027952D for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 18:46:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from driesm.michiels@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48xbwh05B2z44mV; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 18:46:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from driesm.michiels@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id z7so2785379wmk.1; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 11:46:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=DEHC0ugzf3DiWb1tvqYSXXLOm80h0dNjziNBT2Z/gUk=; b=ndD8heQaVK+I47zbqj8sRHZod1M52+DLrtn9eZ2X3EDpb8dkR6qaDPZVlczR6Q14+g WxmyGDpX5M+8XpJFekK5gAgE/JQzQPMOlbNtiv7Z7qed6KgGUITrzpdZtf+XoWk9wO6p dp1jC+5igM0BU/9t4iHcF+tF+QF+tPo154RWOY2AvP1xmciPJv63TbmEfyi6XSHAl4/D ruzWsNC3ty14z8WSSau6K8dnMSk7kTIyAjiZarSYvweo3sRxyQbSP7Wpz0eVDi3kMEiw saTRjpVCUcGnsxRL36gf+RY+i7h3oyzQ8wKTKys9ZXfGZBTUFBv/h70zTZrUVeeaGQaK ZETg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=DEHC0ugzf3DiWb1tvqYSXXLOm80h0dNjziNBT2Z/gUk=; b=T30v0UsVsHN7EfHO3qs0KjhgoSyNOACN0o+Ysyrw3EHXMNnS+GL6e7iHaV3Qel81TH J0+EuwDDsgrOysSJci49hKY+lMWyyu0F/YaduoahMZFrjeO/jmlBSP8yr6UfV70xM8Lh 6grlzfZFtBhPoHrvB9qt6xAinAd+92qPGsKEeukyr/jDPTBt0jpLoYkc0U7xJcjdzDdp 27mGECGtremWAVbMOBayW6a3GQhJw2EJ/IiSKxzKGL3CuhUM+p1EBCKNaEgCrRxxVMU2 tUR0EGhQZamu4NZjs0XGMwQRnoBYI8DGHe5SmD2P7Oas5/V/RRpBgV0bTq9Vu/N9k9lD 8gHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ4yVFXS0BhmsP7kNsuxrxXMCdvSKh1N2YdA2ohHrdkImLw88J9 UR2JWg6YpHSKpZha1FXGwDU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLDcvjItbsl24+MA9qvgX2yCWVicEof2OVP0iKz0YQdztIo13znnRyo9xt/8aXsc4aKF6qxzA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c219:: with SMTP id x25mr640091wmi.23.1586285202268; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 11:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DRIESPC (ptr-8sijbm5kgljykh4y3mp.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be. [2a02:1811:2505:1601:306e:6ddd:5afc:6ee1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b199sm3993728wme.23.2020.04.07.11.46.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Apr 2020 11:46:41 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'Rodney W. Grimes'" , Cc: , "'Andrey V. Elsukov'" , "'Neel Chauhan'" References: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: RE: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:46:41 +0200 Message-ID: <00c101d60d0c$e1331bc0$a3995340$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: nl-be Thread-Index: AQJMSIb2S0Wl9yENYOtRzVjLofK+1KeBf96w X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48xbwh05B2z44mV X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ndD8heQa; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of driesmmichiels@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::335 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=driesmmichiels@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.99), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.36), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 18:46:45 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org hackers@freebsd.org> On Behalf Of Rodney W. Grimes > Sent: dinsdag 7 april 2020 19:35 > To: lev@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Andrey V. Elsukov ; > Neel Chauhan > Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch > > > On 07.04.2020 11:28, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > > > > >> I have one patch for the ipfw userland tool: > > >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 > > >> > > >> This patch adds the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 aliases > > >> for src-ip/dst-ip commands respectively in IPFW. > > >> > > >> Could someone please commit this patch? > > > > > > Can you describe what is the benefit to have all these aliases, when > > > after adding the rule you will still see other name. I think this > > > makes it more confusing. > > I think, {src|dst}-ip without version should exist only for backward > > compatibility and, maybe, produce warnings. > > But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of changing the > "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 and making src-ip/dst-ip a > backwards compatible alias. > > > > > Why? symmetry & consistency. And equal length of fields in rules for > > different versions, too :-) > > > > Also, there are confusion with me/me4/me6. When `src-ip` is really > > `src-ip4`, what does `me` mean? `me4`? or `me4 OR me6`? > > The parts of the rule are not cross applied so this is a non-question, > me4 with a src-ip6 matches 0 packets no mater what the values are. Currently only me and me6 are implemented, given your comment above does that mean that "me" should only match IPv4 packets? If that was the intend, it is not what I'm observing with my ruleset that uses "me" as destination keyword. IPv6 works fine with it. You can find my IPFW ruleset in the review https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24021. > > One could write syntax checkers to flag this NOP condition. > > > -- > > // Lev Serebryakov > -- > Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Apr 7 23:34:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26F42A289C for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 23:34:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48xkJC3Ts8z4PGq; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 23:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 037NY0f6094851; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 037NY0NO094850; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202004072334.037NY0NO094850@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch In-Reply-To: <00c101d60d0c$e1331bc0$a3995340$@gmail.com> To: driesm.michiels@gmail.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) CC: "'Rodney W. Grimes'" , lev@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "'Andrey V. Elsukov'" , "'Neel Chauhan'" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48xkJC3Ts8z4PGq X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 69.59.192.140) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.950,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (0.13), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.06), asn: 13868(0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.91)[0.908,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 23:34:05 -0000 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > hackers@freebsd.org> On Behalf Of Rodney W. Grimes > > Sent: dinsdag 7 april 2020 19:35 > > To: lev@freebsd.org > > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Andrey V. Elsukov ; > > Neel Chauhan > > Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch > > > > > On 07.04.2020 11:28, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > > > > > > >> I have one patch for the ipfw userland tool: > > > >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 > > > >> > > > >> This patch adds the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 aliases > > > >> for src-ip/dst-ip commands respectively in IPFW. > > > >> > > > >> Could someone please commit this patch? > > > > > > > > Can you describe what is the benefit to have all these aliases, when > > > > after adding the rule you will still see other name. I think this > > > > makes it more confusing. > > > I think, {src|dst}-ip without version should exist only for backward > > > compatibility and, maybe, produce warnings. > > > > But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of changing > the > > "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 and making > src-ip/dst-ip a > > backwards compatible alias. > > > > > > > > Why? symmetry & consistency. And equal length of fields in rules for > > > different versions, too :-) > > > > > > Also, there are confusion with me/me4/me6. When `src-ip` is really > > > `src-ip4`, what does `me` mean? `me4`? or `me4 OR me6`? > > > > The parts of the rule are not cross applied so this is a non-question, > > me4 with a src-ip6 matches 0 packets no mater what the values are. > > Currently only me and me6 are implemented, given your comment above does > that mean that "me" should only match IPv4 packets? No Your review adds me4 as an explicit match on ipv4 address only, which is what was agreed to in the review. "me" should continue to match v4 or v6 packets. I would expect a me with a src-ip4 modifier to be the "and" of them, and something silly like me4 with a src-ip6 to be the empty set. > If that was the intend, it is not what I'm observing with my ruleset that > uses "me" as destination keyword. IPv6 works fine with it. > You can find my IPFW ruleset in the review > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24021. > > > > > One could write syntax checkers to flag this NOP condition. > > > > > -- > > > // Lev Serebryakov > > -- > > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 15:02:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D162BC935 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:02:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48ykrr3dPZz3D8N for ; 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RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[25.4.111.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.25]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(-3.49)[ip: (-9.81), ipnet: 66.111.4.0/24(-4.89), asn: 11403(-2.69), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[langille.org:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[langille.org,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[25.4.111.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_WWW(0.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 15:02:20 -0000 Hello, I'm looking to add package support to FreshPorts - so you can know if a package exists for a given ABI (e.g. FreeBSD:12:amd64). The goal, write a script which does something like this: for abi in $ABIS do fetch -o abi. packagesite.txz https://pkg.freebsd.org/$abi/latest/packagesite.txz # parse the file, updating the database done Is there a list of current valid ABI combinations. I see a list at https://pkg.freebsd.org/ - is this manually maintained? While my goal is to have FreshPorts require minimal intervention, I suppose new ABI combinations do not come along frequently and could be maintained manually. It does not seem like a huge task. More details here: https://github.com/FreshPorts/freshports/issues/142 Thank you -- Dan Langille dan@langille.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 19:05:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB17827B2EB for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:05:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f182.google.com (mail-il1-f182.google.com [209.85.166.182]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48yrFj29pWz46Mf for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:05:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f182.google.com with SMTP id a6so755880ilr.4 for ; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=i1GHfnDoN837xn9l2+dCeoEGk7gq0DMG62q18XH7xuI=; b=V9jVIsZGfcSYseMoOyFpj/sMXvjBCiXfwVF+JpIOivHWSfMGU6HqIwO4X6kYNFQ07l IejrDj/T/xeVK0Lik8FO21PQvFyZL+yHQutJIRkVv9nBlI1/icAapPRA2SB2NIDRfkOW l9bjob53ObP+N6rosFj2/u/iJYb2WzAtDQ2iVTv80TPRrrvjzaTigzSVUEAoed5OPmDx UcrdXbN3SztiHPhoa7FAQIEbPCy0f0TJXlyieyAuVophIyOmn3+viyp9vXKFk5IFMz/d kHSdERrnA2MCNcSMN/qcE7PHEUG2GJPJO7cTWxGLco8kDT50VX0fjh3awoNa7QsmVimL 4oUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYaMm31R7d+SSb4A84lbUwSXFNx1dAtB1KPMVxFy9afKEFumSzX oIfkBOfaZQUgujORdg4KyVWDEAVbZgDZgBd9zfjLdlJT X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJKXrjh2X+FyCm54qGOBHjNQfVjebo04R/zmKxa7tS0RFlYeNuVOK+YyGD3RD8ApJfCc/Go8H/sWQn3xZhyFrU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:790a:: with SMTP id u10mr1276027ilc.98.1586459143696; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:05:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:05:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48yrFj29pWz46Mf X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.39 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[182.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.39)[ip: (-6.06), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-0.40), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 19:05:46 -0000 Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD experience for new users. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 19:34:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88CF27C474 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48yrty4YWzz4923 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qt1-f181.google.com (mail-qt1-f181.google.com [209.85.160.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B15E19B1C for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qt1-f181.google.com with SMTP id y25so940725qtv.7 for ; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaT+1ubbtdcAdZtD/qWVbpvGsN2tP+74XMrtzZP/IDelTQGta3h uKoX+9pvpdvpqw/CMC0Pw0GNi7Qfg1E3NkPf9VM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLaFZooeJfI3SanMBOefbFm+csrUbAgg1kbfvrt/UY9e2mC66uR1t1DwIsuzCWvSTNaoxckVMjuZrgQeF0Sfpo= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:65cc:: with SMTP id t12mr1039963qto.310.1586460873941; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Evans Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:34:20 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 19:34:34 -0000 On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > experience for new users. Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: 1. re: LiveCD/Amnesiac prompt, we really should indicate the expected credentials... we already do special stuff in release/ for install media, my initial impression is that this shouldn't be all too hard. 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should at least have basically usable history at a minimum 3. re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console". Looking at sample output for that specific inquiry: linux-c7-xorg-libs-7.7_8 Xorg libraries (Linux CentOS 7.7.1908) xorg-7.7_3 X.Org complete distribution metaport xorg-apps-7.7_4 X.org apps meta-port xorg-cf-files-1.0.6 X.org cf files for use with imake builds xorg-dmx-1.20.8,1 Distributed Multihead X from X.Org xorg-docs-1.7.1,1 X.org documentation files I wonder if we shouldn't push the version numbers into a second column so it's easier to glean. The initial column with full pkgname is a bit too noisy for my eyes. Further, and this only really applies probably in conjunction with other potential problems and may be completely incorrect, but I think we should be giving our users something that they can just quickly slap onto a `pkg install ` line and have the greatest chance of doing the right thing. AFAICT pkg-search won't trigger a `pkg update` before the search, so by the time you actually pkg update+install the remote repo may not have that specific package (w/ version) anymore: 4. re: /proc, we should hold a separate discussion on this list about whether we can mount /proc by default with debugging facilities eradicated. Thanks, Kyle Evans From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 19:45:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D524827C9B0 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f173.google.com (mail-il1-f173.google.com [209.85.166.173]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48ys7q5KlQz49jL; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f173.google.com with SMTP id t6so844945ilj.8; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wPfx0pkso1+G29Gyow2wRSd2pZOQBr/f+5pdl7oRBoQ=; b=jopxXc01bkaqMWhIXZRYBa1yi2E36D4XqGNOs59qgldHH7Cjvk9PBIQkaz/9WvKeov 6yL0gQ5SLG6m44jYezOGryuXp/bV6VVTIWzmErX2O6RaPxugiEczrVoUEDm9p1RWzmgH +TfsPzXSdThnM1WT/78oQG1fGQRMZroScS7HpVMgNQ5+wdPdWVKlFQg1AARPxDOBAEE/ jwtVRN5pGLhQHHPd1oV+pIYsSD1p4m05S8YFPPDhZ5RrQeu9LGS8//obIcaMbePUPcHE 5eNbnK04aTMARK+KCnlvwAyZ7U9vERQRyvmdsrvL1T91ft51L6wwN3jmaLyv290/jEU5 H5Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYQvh0Q9j3cdKMi+ijXkZdafcHAPQZL+acJBKSRnab83weIrAj9 /EPHJ7ihuz+IZWu73RtkMdshpKy97WcGZD52Rcwz+g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLh7gRCznroP2EZ/ZrScWQ8P9bbogq2Z6/buUDVBm6gEiMmYs444s9NtKclAvbzOEUuwg2Cy36TrH+sx+YcG9k= X-Received: by 2002:a92:41c7:: with SMTP id o190mr1486166ila.11.1586461542256; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:45:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:45:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Kyle Evans Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48ys7q5KlQz49jL X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 19:45:43 -0000 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 15:34, Kyle Evans wrote: > > 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > at least have basically usable history at a minimum Complete agreement here, although in 13-CURRENT /bin/sh is surprisingly usable. I'm normally a zsh user, but after using /bin/sh on a new laptop I've found !$ is the only thing I strongly miss. > 3. re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg > returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console". Indeed, I think the article is technically incorrect, but the usability problem is the same; if `pkg search xorg` returns more than a screenfull of results and the desired one scrolled away, does it really matter that it's actually present? There are some usability improvements that could be made with pkg / pkg search, but really a new user should trivially be able to get a graphical environment running, before they'd have any reason to `pkg search` anything. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 20:38:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3691827E462 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:38:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48ytJC55XSz4FVr; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:38:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 039KcLwW054845 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: From: Chris Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: Kyle Evans Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:38:27 -0700 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48ytJC55XSz4FVr X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.55 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.757,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.80)[-0.795,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[24.113.41.81] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 20:38:04 -0000 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:34:20 -0500 Kyle Evans kevans@freebsd=2Eorg said > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > with FreeBSD 12=2E1 as a desktop: > > > > https://arstechnica=2Ecom/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-revie= w-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have=2E It will be a good > > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > > experience for new users=2E >=20 > Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: >=20 > 1=2E re: LiveCD/Amnesiac prompt, we really should indicate the expected > credentials=2E=2E=2E we already do special stuff in release/ for install > media, my initial impression is that this shouldn't be all too hard=2E >=20 > 2=2E re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > at least have basically usable history at a minimum >=20 > 3=2E re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg > returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console"=2E > Looking at sample output for that specific inquiry: >=20 > linux-c7-xorg-libs-7=2E7_8 Xorg libraries (Linux CentOS 7=2E7=2E1908) > xorg-7=2E7_3 X=2EOrg complete distribution metaport > xorg-apps-7=2E7_4 X=2Eorg apps meta-port > xorg-cf-files-1=2E0=2E6 X=2Eorg cf files for use with imake builds > xorg-dmx-1=2E20=2E8,1 Distributed Multihead X from X=2EOrg > xorg-docs-1=2E7=2E1,1 X=2Eorg documentation files >=20 > I wonder if we shouldn't push the version numbers into a second column > so it's easier to glean=2E IMHO that's a really good idea=2E On a similar note; may I humbly suggest that the current motd(5), while informative, is a bit overwhelming to new users=2E Perhaps replace some of it's current contents with a: To bootstrap a desktop on your new install enter "pkg install xorg"=2E=2E=2E or something along those lines=2E Maybe just a reference to a text document in examples that provides some suggestions/ solutions=2E > The initial column with full pkgname is a bit > too noisy for my eyes=2E Further, and this only really applies probably > in conjunction with other potential problems and may be completely > incorrect, but I think we should be giving our users something that > they can just quickly slap onto a `pkg install ` line and have the > greatest chance of doing the right thing=2E AFAICT pkg-search won't > trigger a `pkg update` before the search, so by the time you actually > pkg update+install the remote repo may not have that specific package > (w/ version) anymore: >=20 > 4=2E re: /proc, we should hold a separate discussion on this list about > whether we can mount /proc by default with debugging facilities > eradicated=2E >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Kyle Evans --Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 21:39:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0CA27FF5A for ; 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Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:39:45 +0000 From: Rick Macklem To: Ed Maste , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Thread-Topic: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Thread-Index: AQHWDqHkE78Y1PGKdEyvx5ZF92yttqhxT/XY Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:39:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0e977a3f-2208-4ad8-684b-08d7dcce854a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: QB1PR01MB2962: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0368E78B5B x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:QB1PR01MB3649.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10009020)(396003)(39860400002)(346002)(366004)(136003)(376002)(66946007)(55016002)(33656002)(64756008)(66556008)(110136005)(52536014)(6506007)(66446008)(76116006)(786003)(450100002)(81166007)(66476007)(71200400001)(186003)(478600001)(81156014)(8676002)(7696005)(5660300002)(8936002)(2906002)(316002)(9686003)(86362001); 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: uoguelph.ca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0e977a3f-2208-4ad8-684b-08d7dcce854a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Apr 2020 21:39:45.3014 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: be62a12b-2cad-49a1-a5fa-85f4f3156a7d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: s03T61v0o1INtaXecC5o1q14NyE5mSxDwl05Dw+jaqqUizMI9bRcNR3qOLeniftc3fkjR2nba8nRmtbq6NVpDg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: QB1PR01MB2962 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48yvgR2c3bz4KQr X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:39:47 -0000 Ed Maste wrote:=0A= >Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience=0A= >with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop:=0A= >https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-f= reebsd-12-1-release/=0A= >=0A= >There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding,=0A= >but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience=0A= >a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good=0A= >idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if=0A= >appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD=0A= >experience for new users.=0A= Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here...=0A= =0A= One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others have suggest= ed=0A= this before)=85=0A= What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that installs= =0A= X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"?=0A= --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just stuff that i= s widely=0A= available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD.=0A= Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display chip sets th= at work=0A= well, etc and so on...=0A= =0A= If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the regula= r=0A= release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to date list of = what=0A= hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it start up live = CD=0A= style and then see if the hardware it needs is there.=0A= --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or...=0A= =0A= Just an idea, rick=0A= ps: I am not volunteering to help do this. I run FreeBSD on laptop/desktop= =0A= systems, but bare bones. No X Windows...= From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 21:40:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3842A807F for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:40:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [IPv6:2607:f740:d:20::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48yvhV4k2lz4KYY; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:40:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48yvhR4cVtz3m5Q; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:40:39 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1586468439; bh=Q70asoIR5McvTaSnjd05USOa ++dFePm5Z1IGz1B6+Kc=; b=lhm1rYjFj3xqMZoweD5Dp2ggCp8H7JBF4cxcsMmz 6QtQNRCXezARdaiccSM2iCJXZXXXrWrWgSlMSTTTVIFA9qr/jVArDXPFf+KJSisj v2cTO3e4E7HGmvjRCXma06hXeWLQDjsNSwdSl8J7S1OOkTAi5DSW1vTszanWq/J3 TUo= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([127.0.0.1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id 0mW-E279Hkor; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:40:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:dca9:201:9874:8a1a:1d6c:a076]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48yvhR0Vy3z3lbm; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:40:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Ed Maste , Kyle Evans Cc: FreeBSD Hackers References: From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: <8a9e684c-4b6d-884d-4db6-fc7b436117e0@daemonic.se> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 23:40:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48yvhV4k2lz4KYY X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:40:42 -0000 On 2020-04-09 21:45, Ed Maste wrote: > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 15:34, Kyle Evans wrote: >> >> 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should >> at least have basically usable history at a minimum > > Complete agreement here, although in 13-CURRENT /bin/sh is > surprisingly usable. I'm normally a zsh user, but after using /bin/sh > on a new laptop I've found !$ is the only thing I strongly miss. > >> 3. re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg >> returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console". > > Indeed, I think the article is technically incorrect, but the > usability problem is the same; if `pkg search xorg` returns more than > a screenfull of results and the desired one scrolled away, does it > really matter that it's actually present? To be honest, what's the difference from how yum or apt does it? At least yum search returns everything that matches, including matches in package descriptions and so on. I haven't used apt systems in a while, but I recall they being similar. This sounds to me just like someone who wants to find something to complain about. Regards -- Niclas From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 21:59:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41562A8C1F for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:59:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james.wright@jigsawdezign.com) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48yw5x33Lgz4LsM; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:59:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james.wright@jigsawdezign.com) Received: from [192.168.0.11] ([82.18.193.38]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.163]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MuDHR-1j1Pxf0dTh-00uYmf; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 23:59:14 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.5\)) Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience From: James Wright In-Reply-To: <8a9e684c-4b6d-884d-4db6-fc7b436117e0@daemonic.se> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 22:59:12 +0100 Cc: Ed Maste , Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <494F4B96-189F-49F5-99EF-C649FCB13ACE@jigsawdezign.com> References: <8a9e684c-4b6d-884d-4db6-fc7b436117e0@daemonic.se> To: Niclas Zeising X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.5) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uIzDwzPFne1brfHn/DYIVyH8xmnNf1T9uOM+s8wNyjIC+fxeK11 TW+wgZI27WClUlcHI/sZxV75bYMP5zhF9e8x0Ly9MszGtWQuMmV/cgNwtO7G9KLdYa2pITd SNbgrdgd4OEo7nhekINzIQSqXbAy+A3B/TJebkSHexTu0Lxa/6m3gm90bwN1B/g/BOm/9tw 7JSbKYlHWTuqcCHtPL3cA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qQX/YQV0tT0=:C+bIK2Lwo1UaRrCh/QjXtV PPVKAFVdkh8/f5DxWVR9/1tBVAI0ANrIRf3FCBABquXDiB7r6g+kVC+B2etUBkvH33kSCFWLR 5R3zLa/aAgms87KX7XXYlaz9aCFcIPICy1u7X0+LZTr0IfcB+o1udcRir56cP/Dz4S2ko024y YsW9KNrQezZHXAQiH4GEuJj/hYUguGQcTBd8j6+FYZu6+7WI26faKvrrC6CuTf/w+q+Skzz7S cl3x7aqEMxpE5S+dMDn/FMI/CLkkrd4OTti7oPBtX70FvNDhfdTib+umF6xFJj6uGi4OBjzwV VI7pcdnsvitm5u31RSC9OT/kxLe37OTbkPoXZJJUPGd8jU1bgi7/agEd3Qw2iam1JILXN6iWg IA7SrBgHJLzNOv4B35dpC33W7lP+cBJwux0tv/Cnt5kg3CE0ctwxM/1vNF3eo0Vh9c2mxdLB6 OZ+EzWqvSRZ98HRGUJZKoZYmmDRqlMydP1MIZv4QwqvdDYQs0ZXt4ArxlO5kmEJOfkC1QQg/m ckSQymt7pTn7VQmGoashUJ9k2DyUjdo2i3/aCYEqSaOtO+Ww8/wtoqPpZ+qpwTPZIDyWirygq WXKhddaYMVp0cvmFYkd7wB7U/hvtYqH0vPkHwV5fNSlV4X8p5ZMwvowo7ecGsuVAlofsXldGI fJXMsX3xPP7uSwEKeWE9wJoxxi5Xt83TbejQeMTSHeo8hLtk1hFplL/Vi0Hyx4KiFJJ7JudRC ODoIv2V/Tc2g+W3J4OItGtxIZVQ0n0zVMqJeyztwEEgvZFy4UPjt4TEJVUoMJWz9I90ChvDUR RXFS2t69jfJ2P6JgZiB0w6Gdzk5acy/ac4PmekGSbz+0qUZtGvm/VBB29x0zpeFIc3QCzJR X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48yw5x33Lgz4LsM X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of james.wright@jigsawdezign.com has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=james.wright@jigsawdezign.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.33 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(0.51)[ip: (1.63), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.16), asn: 8560(2.11), country: DE(-0.02)]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jigsawdezign.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.46)[0.463,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.95)[0.953,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[130.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 21:59:18 -0000 > To be honest, what's the difference from how yum or apt does it? > At least yum search returns everything that matches, including matches = in package descriptions and so on. I haven't used apt systems in a = while, but I recall they being similar. This sounds to me just like = someone who wants to find something to complain about. Out of the package managers I have to use frequently (apt, yum, and = pkg), I find `pkg search` usually returns what I'm looking for with the = least amount of noise. However, as previously suggested, moving the package version into a 2nd = column could help, to make it clearer that you don't need to `pkg = install` the package+version string in it's entirety. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Apr 9 22:04:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799782A8FC3 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 22:04:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=wHoQ=5Z=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48ywDD3jh8z4MTr; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 22:04:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=wHoQ=5Z=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B91028436; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:04:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from illbsd.quip.test (ip-62-24-92-232.net.upcbroadband.cz [62.24.92.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03CBA28435; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:04:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Rick Macklem , Ed Maste , FreeBSD Hackers References: From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Message-ID: <204957c6-1d86-7e55-b3c9-ecaabdcd8be3@quip.cz> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:04:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/52.0 SeaMonkey/2.49.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48ywDD3jh8z4MTr X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=wHoQ=5Z=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz has no SPF policy when checking 94.124.105.4) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=wHoQ=5Z=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.91 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(0.83)[ip: (0.28), ipnet: 94.124.104.0/21(0.14), asn: 42000(3.61), country: CZ(0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[quip.cz]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.881,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.105.124.94.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,SRS0=wHoQ=5Z=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[000.fbsd@quip.cz,SRS0=wHoQ=5Z=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 22:04:45 -0000 Rick Macklem wrote on 2020/04/09 23:39: > Ed Maste wrote: >> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience >> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: >> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ >> >> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, >> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience >> a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good >> idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if >> appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD >> experience for new users. > Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here... > > One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others have suggested > this before)… > What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that installs > X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"? > --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just stuff that is widely > available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD. > Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display chip sets that work > well, etc and so on... > > If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the regular > release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to date list of what > hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it start up live CD > style and then see if the hardware it needs is there. > --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or... There has been some attempt to create simple script to setup desktop / workstation with Xorg https://euroquis.nl/freebsd/2019/08/12/instant-workstation.html https://raw.githubusercontent.com/adriaandegroot/FreeBSDTools/master/bin/instant-workstation The biggest problem is graphic driver detection. If something like this can be available on newly installed machines then any new user can run just the one command to get Xorg up and running with KDE / GNOME / Xfce / Mate... Kind regards Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 00:41:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F492AC15B for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:41:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f43.google.com (mail-io1-f43.google.com [209.85.166.43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48yzhv0Gdxz4WwW; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:41:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f43.google.com with SMTP id y17so279980iow.9; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 17:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nk+tzs2fI/ZrYg8J9IBQvHsBoXNIlcIf1EYgdnkfOig=; b=ExYlnVuvgUDptrLozk5JKfkagWrNeYUR/2Ch3z4qrNRcTmjvXftRdfRyFVA/dIlPxo KrMfxF5dhMiubJRVr6aGu+GkXbY21EMv/9c0b2BmQ+3zqMAUpL0B1iO6YW1VJSbcb4y8 FXajNheo0QlN4k/oDHGJpV9PuX5Ryfd97Au+oj+9+UUZpVvReuOIFPoez3A9HknfDYra Io+tx4Zm7MsxVbOZxufrd1ZzWwhHVPhN/H9W4Y7lyxCgwF1Iu5oBl2IFLI76oWDcVu9L QUozSDup7bVOEoz9z79Iru2WiSaY5QvM92cto95q3eT1T52vpgf5DG5qtkGd0OnzYYvI pK5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub/qLaEkv7INFPd90GaoQzb12JIfB+agGaCl2VzBLPIsRPQU3p7 m++7y3LhRSRYajTSwAoITIAD3xjtkBGczvsFQSsCrw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIHwCcg8hJ8hVZ4BqQZl3kSJPTVk0sXPQQvB6lj5Wojta2LnWwzWzTSjtoTAvCRp1GeN+MSAID5ZGdU88ty6nI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:93cf:: with SMTP id z73mr2309102jah.136.1586479275116; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 17:41:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8a9e684c-4b6d-884d-4db6-fc7b436117e0@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: <8a9e684c-4b6d-884d-4db6-fc7b436117e0@daemonic.se> From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 20:41:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Niclas Zeising Cc: Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48yzhv0Gdxz4WwW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[43.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-0.82)[ip: (-3.24), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-0.40), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[43.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:41:21 -0000 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 17:40, Niclas Zeising wrote: > > To be honest, what's the difference from how yum or apt does it? > At least yum search returns everything that matches, including matches > in package descriptions and so on. I haven't used apt systems in a > while, but I recall they being similar. The difference is just that a yum or apt user is probably encountering the equivalent of `pkg search xorg` for the first time in an xterm with familiar scrolling behaviour, not an 80x25 console where they might not be able to find out how to find output that has scrolled off the screen. This isn't a problem with pkg, it's a problem with the experience we present to a new user. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 05:52:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C30C2B321B for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 05:52:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from hz.grosbein.net (hz.grosbein.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:c2c:26d8::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hz.grosbein.net", Issuer "hz.grosbein.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48z6c5102Gz4qfl for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 05:52:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from eg.sd.rdtc.ru (eg.sd.rdtc.ru [IPv6:2a03:3100:c:13:0:0:0:5]) by hz.grosbein.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03A5qLwl045110 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 05:52:22 GMT (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) X-Envelope-From: eugen@grosbein.net X-Envelope-To: wojtek@puchar.net Received: from [10.58.0.10] (dadvw [10.58.0.10]) by eg.sd.rdtc.ru (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03A5qK4Y076560 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 12:52:20 +0700 (+07) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12, arp -s/-f cannot allocate memory To: Wojciech Puchar , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: From: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: <36079a44-0fdd-2eec-cf6d-c54ef92a6f0d@grosbein.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 12:52:10 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,LOCAL_FROM, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Report: * -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record * 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record * 2.6 LOCAL_FROM From my domains X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on hz.grosbein.net X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48z6c5102Gz4qfl X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=permerror (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of eugen@grosbein.net uses mechanism not recognized by this client) smtp.mailfrom=eugen@grosbein.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.98 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[grosbein.net]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_PERMFAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(-1.88)[ip: (-5.21), ipnet: 2a01:4f8::/29(-2.61), asn: 24940(-1.58), country: DE(-0.02)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/29, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 05:52:38 -0000 28.03.2020 23:11, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > arp in FreeBSD 12 cannot fill static entries for interface that is set to up by ifconfig but no cable plugged. > it says "cannot allocate memory" > when cable is plugged it works properly. > why? No enough information, you should describe your network configuration in details. Maybe the interface in question obtains IP address via DHCP and it cannot be configured without cable plugged in, so arp cannot deduce name of the interface by IP addresses. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 06:12:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9C52B3872 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:12:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gate2.funkthat.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48z73Y1VNWz4rS5; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:12:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03A6CmrU010734 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 9 Apr 2020 23:12:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03A6Cmx3010733; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 23:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 23:12:48 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Kyle Evans Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Message-ID: <20200410061248.GK4213@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Hackers References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.3-STABLE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: D87A 235F FB71 1F3F 55B7 ED9B D5FF 5A51 C0AC 3D65 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: https://www.funkthat.com/ X-Resume: https://www.funkthat.com/~jmg/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 09 Apr 2020 23:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48z73Y1VNWz4rS5 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:12:57 -0000 Kyle Evans wrote this message on Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 14:34 -0500: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > > experience for new users. > > Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: [...] > 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > at least have basically usable history at a minimum Hmm... I wonder if this is a terminal issue or something. I do remember /bin/sh not working w/ up/down arrow, but I just tried in a jail, and up/down arrows work fine. Also, I normally just "set -o vi" using /bin/sh to give me vi keys in the shell and then it just works... Guess more exploration is needed of a fresh install to figure it out... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 07:09:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678E42B5048 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:09:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mremski@comcast.net) Received: from resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48z8Jt1nbJz4vJk for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:09:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mremski@comcast.net) Received: from resomta-po-15v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.239]) by resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id MnmdjAUFG2WZ8Mnn9jXhE3; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:09:31 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=20190202a; t=1586502571; bh=4iybX3Z7xB5WCUSr7Q21/EwTZOFeLo02IhsStVVNiIc=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Message-ID: Content-Type; b=28Ikp2WkWYpiKA2ljEj/s3fAuEwfjda/5x5zd3zXKeMqwkDcLd6o9u+xZYixw+I0o CHJwSjSHWNnghla2AT+EZ9UZRL+vchi4l891kGHrbdquMHWY1djyHSpWmrUUHyoFEq byncab07+czRCrto79xeiPnFaSoCoTFyPsogLkEV+8wByQYY9zxxppih59I3kq6Lqp jvAc46MyQtTG/Oj8zfR2hRuuoNHtOfw9hTwC5AuTUQ+cKG1LXeP/zWuRbaSJE98oyK x8tSAy9EjYW9A7DaliqUlDdbslOrINfQ1P1+/e7b+8aUaaO9zWk9kZH0r22mvTUV3G zVsiRvlGPMCEg== Received: from localhost ([75.68.96.21]) by resomta-po-15v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id Mnn8jKy2nPHJRMnn9jsOm2; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:09:31 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrvddugdduudegucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuvehomhgtrghsthdqtfgvshhipdfqfgfvpdfpqffurfetoffkrfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffuffggkfgjfhgftgfgsehtqhertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefoihhkvgcutfgvmhhskhhiuceomhhrvghmshhkihestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpegrrhhsthgvtghhnhhitggrrdgtohhmnecukfhppeejhedrieekrdeliedrvddunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpeejhedrieekrdeliedrvddupdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhrvghmshhkihestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopehfrhgvvggsshguqdhhrggtkhgvrhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhg X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=0.00;st=legit From: Mike Remski To: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 03:09:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9bc85f04-ed38-4d5a-bec3-551079cdcb2b@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Trojita/0.7; Qt/5.13.2; xcb; AnyBSD4.4FreeBSD; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48z8Jt1nbJz4vJk X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=comcast.net header.s=20190202a header.b=28Ikp2Wk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=comcast.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mremski@comcast.net designates 2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:169 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mremski@comcast.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:0/112]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[comcast.net]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[comcast.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[comcast.net,none]; HFILTER_HELO_5(3.00)[resqmta-po-10v.sys.comcast.net]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[21.96.68.75.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:2001:558::/29, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[comcast.net.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[comcast.net]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[comcast.net:s=20190202a]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 2001:558::/29(-0.47), asn: 7922(-0.64), country: US(-0.05)]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.6.1.0.4.5.1.0.4.1.1.0.6.9.0.0.9.1.0.0.6.1.e.f.8.5.5.0.1.0.0.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:09:35 -0000 On Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:39:45 PM EDT, Rick Macklem wrote: > Ed Maste wrote: >> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience >> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: >> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-f= reebsd-12-1-release/ >>=20 >> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, >> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience ...= > Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here... > > One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others=20 > have suggested > this before)=E2=80=A6 > What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that installs > X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"? > --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just=20 > stuff that is widely > available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD. > Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display=20 > chip sets that work > well, etc and so on... > > If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the regula= r > release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to=20 > date list of what > hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it=20 > start up live CD > style and then see if the hardware it needs is there. > --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or... > > Just an idea, rick > ps: I am not volunteering to help do this. I run FreeBSD on laptop/desktop > systems, but bare bones. No X Windows... Something like what old PCBSD did? How about FuryBSD as a starting point? =20= Joe Maloney is layering either XFCE or KDE (2 different ISO/install media)=20= on top of a FreeBSD install, so out of the box, the install gives you=20 FreeBSD with either XFCE or KDE. Disclaimer: I've been using FreeBSD with X as a daily driver for a long=20 time and honestly never found it that difficult to set up. Hardest was=20 when everything started to need the drm-kmod bits, but once I understood=20 what I needed to do, it's not been an issue. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 08:47:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E662B721A for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:47:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zBTz1wBxz3Gcs; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:47:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2496957B; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:47:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F31F6D739A; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:47:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:47:00 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Kyle Evans Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Message-ID: <20200410084700.3tdgbsyrm5hjgpge@ivaldir.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xg4dewh5hipgomde" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:47:35 -0000 --xg4dewh5hipgomde Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 02:34:20PM -0500, Kyle Evans wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-revie= w-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > > experience for new users. >=20 > Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: >=20 > 1. re: LiveCD/Amnesiac prompt, we really should indicate the expected > credentials... we already do special stuff in release/ for install > media, my initial impression is that this shouldn't be all too hard. >=20 > 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > at least have basically usable history at a minimum >=20 > 3. re: `pkg search xorg` -- that makes sense, given "pkg search xorg > returns too many hits to fit on a single page of a text-mode console". > Looking at sample output for that specific inquiry: >=20 > linux-c7-xorg-libs-7.7_8 Xorg libraries (Linux CentOS 7.7.1908) > xorg-7.7_3 X.Org complete distribution metaport > xorg-apps-7.7_4 X.org apps meta-port > xorg-cf-files-1.0.6 X.org cf files for use with imake builds > xorg-dmx-1.20.8,1 Distributed Multihead X from X.Org > xorg-docs-1.7.1,1 X.org documentation files >=20 There is a reason, why this is done like this, it is the historical output. Changing it will break a lot of scripts, many choices in pkg has been made = to be as conservative as possible to avoid breaking things. Best regards, Bapt --xg4dewh5hipgomde Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAl6QMoIACgkQY4mL3PG3 Plr65hAAqhJ2QdfX9DPAmGkQyDApWEfrS6agAr/77NwcWanahfB1AgQk2aJPtvX3 hnqZMmXJC1Hp3v/tRio22IohMuJ2KOvw1UjAUf4QtbiHuebwfeqp2pDXvnob4+xZ /8/hJ8oDSn6msJYZKU5BzI/4CtkP0Y+/t33gDKo8xuNQD7q600dNI0e2NoWQEQTk edxkHkGmIg0AeVXfhfLakeHX2bnIYQcg7BG9MD9SgJCxc2t2RV/RoieWz1z3pekI ZnoCRqxyiOWYYYmP4FbvBY5x4fIqM48gWD7jInbw9VJKgqbAeDt/O3X/TprTVDr/ CJw+3BAMzDFO4RVfMH7sLLl/xyj7YZNdWcS8imBJ3t3y+bepCAaVN507UtXHnmdD XC8YTD2ZkXw9JkrYacoS8neRDRy+CUpbJkHVgW9XzacSpThoQBZLHcamudhTH2Cw 5kwaMJbeh8p21WcJ0J0DSaegojlyC78Uj4QAdEwB/ONfJKZC/FHlLVGiKoW0OMor M5UfI+PYe/qAQE26D87Gk6XH28WmzsXI6Wm47jVf/P+R+8hPMSZ8FxhGG8eenkjR wlb7PmLwqnT/2kRvLNt6pFzpRz3OCjkJqMnZRLDv4/kv9EkhxO2pG07asRKq4vqf il2BfHJaKiCUWpoQOGhWhqlVFFVss4ZBDSgkCAxbLy6H/G6Y1ms= =QTm0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xg4dewh5hipgomde-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 10:50:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D602B9F0B for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:50:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from forward105j.mail.yandex.net (forward105j.mail.yandex.net [5.45.198.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zFCk5FqBz3Ns4; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:50:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from mxback22o.mail.yandex.net (mxback22o.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::73]) by forward105j.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id E7D2EB21A41; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:50:22 +0300 (MSK) Received: from iva6-add863d6e49c.qloud-c.yandex.net (iva6-add863d6e49c.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c0c:7ea0:0:640:add8:63d6]) by mxback22o.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id Ha1GL0Qvvk-oMjqr8ap; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:50:22 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1586515822; bh=8uGlXGlP/9AIccXLXxynQvvTj3OsnvcPd/NbJ3L0/Js=; h=In-Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Cc:Date:References:Message-ID; b=MKGsB9wtjYeI1f6GDx+A8AqIDWJp5FWI4i5IddLzhfrkCrtSEKoTl+g0fH5+fJ9xR wsHO6PGfm5pZOawjNgvRZvJAWxXSk0oGvq8AzrC9HDWWqnNpFYDSwdFnpyt1Wwp2y8 jce/Y2Dy+VcqgVszYxkR28fqCMNz0SeIC0gHuSKw= Received: by iva6-add863d6e49c.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id vgCglYHUsa-oJXeYVQ6; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:50:20 +0300 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , lev@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Neel Chauhan References: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: "Andrey V. 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Elsukov" To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , lev@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Neel Chauhan Message-ID: <7284239b-e335-b219-b28a-386f0edd4f8e@yandex.ru> Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch References: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> --jwL3KhM4B3b2AlOiJdVSjoS9JSTp89kOo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07.04.2020 20:35, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of > changing the "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 > and making src-ip/dst-ip a backwards compatible alias. I also think this idea sounds better. --=20 WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov --jwL3KhM4B3b2AlOiJdVSjoS9JSTp89kOo-- --UqkzIkSZaYARrWtkGEqoRgAUy2j8tlmBg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/ iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE5lkeG0HaFRbwybwAAcXqBBDIoXoFAl6QTp8ACgkQAcXqBBDI oXo9KQf+O8OtpE6u3PUQTDxdvrhotwBkdIYNGxaLEaWeujVPnNwT+fAjTChyDpTS hwpXYGO0A0oEYmJsriOdhGknRRC1x8hyNlsWBDsLhRQfnjf1SxwCLnm88aiPx7co KOT206tiQ5K99sopPaoWh4AiD3B5vfaHgUroCoXSk8dijDTTZRcdYdP0tOEkh8PW 3EB6RYP9XT5GU7FoZ8WdBu+dtQrwDbSdF3RaMmB6qr6ClrhkaRe98dNCYUUMuHD+ vO2g1Xg0yD2oa7yrgPIAg7P82ojUQgLV0WsT/5QounVzfp+UG+bZe29GBw2VobCw 0REYjALTimdhY+CMezVThy2qoUUfLQ== =iWcR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UqkzIkSZaYARrWtkGEqoRgAUy2j8tlmBg-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 11:10:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6DD2BA8AE for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:10:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zFfW0vLjz3Q97; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:10:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from onlyone.not-for.work (onlyone.not-for.work [IPv6:2a01:4f8:201:6350::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: lev/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DFA0C1716; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:10:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.23.230] (unknown [89.113.128.32]) (Authenticated sender: lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) by onlyone.not-for.work (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5AEA6F3F; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:10:07 +0300 (MSK) Reply-To: lev@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" , "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Neel Chauhan References: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <7284239b-e335-b219-b28a-386f0edd4f8e@yandex.ru> From: Lev Serebryakov Autocrypt: addr=lev@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFKbGksBEADeguVs+XyJc3mL3iiOBqDd16wSk97YTJYOi4VsHsINzJr09oFvNDiaDBIi fLn2p8XcJvehcsF2GSgrfXfw+uK4O1jyNIKJmiYA0EtE+ZbRtvDrrE0w6Q8+SDeKA21SWh3Y vSQ0DJUontbgW55ER2CbEiIUTIn34uQ0kmESAaw/v5p/9ue8yPTmURvv130FqPFz8VPzltqL NxyGt54TxPfKAzAHEIwxlEZ63JOwzloKh1UDBExcsf9nJO08/TAVgR5UZ5njFBPzaaquhRoP qPJLEQQDqxPIlvMNtHKf7iIebE4BHeqgCdJA0BoiR6gpa0wlsZtdrTPK3n4wYSphLvGbhfOZ YW/hbcu7HYS/FImkVxB3iY17kcC1UTnx4ZaYeASPBGOOPbXky1lLfmDGWIFT//70yx+G17qD OZzF1SvJJhGvh6ilFYaWMX7T+nIp6Mcafc4D7AakXM+XdubNXOMlCJhzPcZ0skgAEnYV587w V7em5fDVwQccwvtfezzqKeJAU5TGiywBHSR5Svzk2FwRNf6M//hWkpq0SRR63iOhkHGOAEBi 69GfEIwH2/w24rLxP0E+Hqq8n+EWNkPatw1Mhcl5PKkdvGCjJUaGNMkpBffjyYo254JXRscR eEnwdIkJt4ErDvjb2/UrOFq31wWMOiLzJeVchAgvTHBMRfP9aQARAQABzShMZXYgU2VyZWJy eWFrb3YgPGxldkBzZXJlYnJ5YWtvdi5zcGIucnU+wsGwBBMBCABDAhsDBwsJCAcDAgEGFQgC CQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4ACGQEWIQT5bRygtfQxi2dLMwrqsDxYv9xHjwUCW/03kQUJDwW3xgAh CRDqsDxYv9xHjxYhBPltHKC19DGLZ0szCuqwPFi/3EePHxkP+wWNrAyks2fQctY/Gl7TMh+Y Q9uX0hAuZ2Vvi0LswBl/R85SsS7IvI9b3ogOWA8CAlHAxkvgH6sWrwRTNcCPS1MzulYxS914 0CSkdwwbv1JyDOOWYU6s8PfT9+BZr+9eNXStmEdEL5XcA1k2YncQtlR3m+oLkqlAOtteZWti pitMIX9BGYIVKyl0t0RnIx+m/QPVGU9gu02j0I3NSRnKQPyFxZqYK0nPBu+FKaEhIAqdKPOv GL4/ijansdiWO3mXy18G0Mkr8yYRSidpGgXGY6lmGzQ3R6ZS30bLI8DkskOOvfErwhZv5dH5 w4+JH5sQ7bIL5HEXs//ZU9UzMdQwcURMjcFfKGyfL0hSLRqzP8m7SL1k9ZL161OQ6C5zVO/M bSCmeeLkbfOj1NW1ZIv6UjVVWE/LS4+gqg/04C+Y24vj+7vMpBVEevdwmIEdmVciFudklcnN omuocb29GKbquRZRDGiE+mhqkwmp5e59AnePp3+AvkewSCsXlR1sfjEP/Tn5OsYerJ7eAAOj DjxO374TAqJG5ftW4BA/nVmx9FGKV1/A9Yc1UuH6LdQfLf7pmTck1Cxg4kdH+3qKGD63sAR0 Wh27XDjnBKXJUN7J+nctWMZJMvw4OhTXdTyVhWt6USKEzw8M5plY4sFqxBEAe8igQXlq1Xjd ISV7wYhT4l3FzsFNBFKbGksBEAC0a9wfjo2P3JyT7Lc+QlbFVshGbSbazb4ma7QYG5IZZD5v fLBFkePoG6cnrn3WCXp4A43hszAynCwe4eXyAkv4+gPF3ZSeNE5Wz3zYG+jh2nm2iGCkyaVy kfbA+2chor2DKH5tHpuNMBlF+wSJHZKJmlo/sFIktAnV1NBVg4/cL+9/hIpvl82cl3hYCD7/ e7/qRE+w38CpAAzn65FvbODn7xlY3fsJt+cHPBJ4EBM9KnTwcce+F+72RQMZQEl7vIAwSRmL dgZHN0MFC533l62SVoKjT0eaOOIBrvesmojhWjfwugibXr+WRF/tGcW77Bxwe2eQLbEVESqW eMORxRxocx7Q7aACoHmf4G4U1Vzx7zUEfNfHjfjZeQVfAURf/MoUelZSW/BmMIfKCg3lRlWA t+Pq2h2UADPVqAZze45beE/c8z8LZsOZiGoRhYL8NSg6+ziLTdmYLWdtFGAuZhqOtNp5h6tG j21OksBotcaIa5YjbCmmnImIjGlSBkUKvIhq/RXth5b2gNwaQdu+Yv4AlZVHRsuVywL/skDF L5+We11bDK6MQ5PzvmntRJcgbyoisn1hiV04OV1LpJJMkJn1j8VlBqDQNT/z+BjB0ru/0anv +5uLj7v0ck06rEo4yiXT/ZAcBM76j7V7FaGbkoba6bUUCQ2H5YYBOKpikjCnpwARAQABwsGT BBgBCAAmAhsMFiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48FAlv9N7IFCQ8Ft+cAIQkQ6rA8WL/c R48WIQT5bRygtfQxi2dLMwrqsDxYv9xHj3CnD/9btCtkcphRYRUe08tUyVwzV/syDCdiUhF7 8jqDKTC+3zuyrFJi7t4fF9follHYz1Ri5RixxJHnuDFcq7ZTOprPYqO8QhckLAJOy5dmORDX 2guEA+y5zDYBwwjpio9dtnuE7QyHyMx4nMPq8O/HfO+6dDEZChkrGvcG9FTI7s0JhsDs3xxw jcROZ2OP0lNu2571ZpR4YuzMUOIhOaQBIF2wrTvLjKUsAnNQYK9gsFTeDHRsE4HZLxJvEdiZ CWN7COi9un4xtP4Khc3Fmn6ANEyh0bIgx1Eii2RGINuA2XRVYhPRJLUZRSVQcrND9k9S+m+T oaqz9JgFLusFA1KhdeYnE1bojpq1U1bsmEicLW2QfEGVumKTgUrTsno0cVPH73KDILFvHA0D 8t4UaQveRTRUVdHZ02IBVt655Q8Xq1TkHJ7l+2Ckso5IBujWD74QpSRzzffn/ihhEExwYSTj FSs0C/OgU+EDZbcq2SWu4n1OGsW337/80HnJKVWBPAZYy4EmiyQSY05MG/fj9RA9Qi4TjFLD LrIf6dFAmiiIwWjlAKiyyUk+XDJXrc1L2VhcHqfdBY4I/qwV1YAI1QI4W/i6TstB1j0GwKa3 ZORwu4eahL5+9R6xBedhXZpCL0dyKuI8iPaC8npaOCJoL8+l4+KXR/PKt8b8kzIcvSpyCZii PQ== Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <1bc864df-0b09-fad4-3781-d7975c385b0e@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:10:06 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7284239b-e335-b219-b28a-386f0edd4f8e@yandex.ru> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1VrPHOpVPBH8RO6PRPKc6CiC0b9PU2Qcx" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:10:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --1VrPHOpVPBH8RO6PRPKc6CiC0b9PU2Qcx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0f0bR6Daw12xe8jp2nHyCCM9fHydAwMfO" --0f0bR6Daw12xe8jp2nHyCCM9fHydAwMfO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10.04.2020 13:46, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > On 07.04.2020 20:35, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of >> changing the "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 >> and making src-ip/dst-ip a backwards compatible alias. >=20 > I also think this idea sounds better. +1 --=20 // Lev Serebryakov --0f0bR6Daw12xe8jp2nHyCCM9fHydAwMfO-- --1VrPHOpVPBH8RO6PRPKc6CiC0b9PU2Qcx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE+W0coLX0MYtnSzMK6rA8WL/cR48FAl6QVA5fFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEY5 NkQxQ0EwQjVGNDMxOEI2NzRCMzMwQUVBQjAzQzU4QkZEQzQ3OEYACgkQ6rA8WL/c R4+8WA/9EPQ9JEBLmjtKcezWGogofGOTvJ41Nv/bTCOH7WZOa0cpu4HROprq2DXL 4Z8mvgYZdaCavC/szEnWsywFlf2pPSqm3vpD8Q9qPQGBC1HoXuBPKAldPflpGHz1 C+1iXwAL6S2i3IT53VAdLdhexo3CnULvkSvJFZQGKmmuGslMoxrrdZyb73cDgT68 zQIwY+DOors2iUU7FqW2YO2DPAB8PWZnMvdqtBkjUjpUUlrniBYySKsXaCRpPf2K 4yb73mmKGBh15HUB/qPcPjpVa/PJ5jCreDZCCNdKxjLJHi9HdtxVS4q6T/+Z1j0I AP5Jap0VZ30dArFMYn6ZmZxhws3TpCL7jhXrZwcwLnzj1qDSHz3seEaCjEVI1+T/ EeG/EHOuE6eapGhL9rgb7HP3PL3pi2das/d3+Ksfl/MwhrVXP8gtJUd7lYOR3wEk VhxHV4P2VEDAhgM+9GwNFlUSFTxJrbi+xEugjGaJLuoswPu+8oD0fXzIq7fGxfJs 3rxJRj8Z/e9KDl6v4+mCb+aPIgbaj8EWmiDJaTgzDvQIHbb1tCL+iDq0NXcbGSIz ovqd7MHOv4088XXYT/NLJCMDC6TJO9ITd1S/jv5IaA4oQzQuxk3IPtljRymhVVmc i+yYao2Z4OB4VdatMSVNn3WqUw4git3K8WWdXn1ez6z5fJlunAA= =fJhF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1VrPHOpVPBH8RO6PRPKc6CiC0b9PU2Qcx-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 11:50:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61E72BB5AB for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:50:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from debdrup@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zGXS5NJvz3xDd for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:50:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from debdrup@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-yb1-f174.google.com (mail-yb1-f174.google.com [209.85.219.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: debdrup) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A126C1C03 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:50:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from debdrup@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-yb1-f174.google.com with SMTP id n2so1078881ybg.4 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub+mT2PLu7pt7X5XpXB5txXOza8qVtFtn6/l65wjZeLmR4NVVNG 0YT8MRKROhi04kjQh8BjPi31wHUYIzxb98SedR8cLQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLCVzCvjYGyIn9xaMS/O3Z8ZV1XHjhUBJTXN/PlyAZYsvulvQG4rsYTVR5QPZIPc6acinEv32pveBFAwX/p6hw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:e5c6:: with SMTP id c189mr7007428ybh.354.1586519400096; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:50:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:6006:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:49:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <204957c6-1d86-7e55-b3c9-ecaabdcd8be3@quip.cz> References: <204957c6-1d86-7e55-b3c9-ecaabdcd8be3@quip.cz> From: Daniel Ebdrup Jensen Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:49:59 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Cc: Rick Macklem , Ed Maste , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:50:00 -0000 On 4/10/20, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: > Rick Macklem wrote on 2020/04/09 23:39: >> Ed Maste wrote: >>> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience >>> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: >>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-revie= w-freebsd-12-1-release/ >>> >>> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, >>> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience >>> a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good >>> idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if >>> appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD >>> experience for new users. >> Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here... >> >> One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others have >> suggested >> this before)=E2=80=A6 >> What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that install= s >> X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"? >> --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just stuff tha= t >> is widely >> available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD. >> Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display chip set= s >> that work >> well, etc and so on... >> >> If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the >> regular >> release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to date list = of >> what >> hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it start up li= ve >> CD >> style and then see if the hardware it needs is there. >> --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or... > > There has been some attempt to create simple script to setup desktop / > workstation with Xorg > https://euroquis.nl/freebsd/2019/08/12/instant-workstation.html > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/adriaandegroot/FreeBSDTools/master/bin/= instant-workstation > > The biggest problem is graphic driver detection. > > If something like this can be available on newly installed machines then > any new user can run just the one command to get Xorg up and running > with KDE / GNOME / Xfce / Mate... > > Kind regards > Miroslav Lachman > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " > Is devmatch(8) [1] not intended to solve the problem of auto-detecting hardware? [2] suggests that it works for i915 thanks to johalun@, but I wasn't immediately able to find the equivalent for radeon or amdgpu drivers - and based on [3] it looks like patches are more than welcome. I'm just a docs contributor, but I know we have smarter people than me, so I think it would be awesome if someone could find the time for it. [1]: https://man.freebsd.org/devmatch(8) [2]: https://github.com/FreeBSDDesktop/kms-drm/commit/9a0b7d0cebc2f6acf4f05= ba6ae4b0a191a16afee [3]: https://github.com/FreeBSDDesktop/kms-drm/issues/68 From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 14:47:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AD52BFAFA for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:47:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alfix86@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x334.google.com (mail-wm1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zLSr2yspz480v for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alfix86@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x334.google.com with SMTP id a201so2590541wme.1 for ; 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Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alfdeb ([87.19.157.240]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f141sm3125882wmf.3.2020.04.10.07.47.04 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:47:04 +0200 From: Alfonso Siciliano To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Message-Id: <20200410164704.20942a6644bd1c122d1dd17c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zLSr2yspz480v X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=h9rikk/o; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of alfix86@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::334 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=alfix86@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; 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RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:47:09 -0000 On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:05:32 -0400 Ed Maste wrote: > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > experience for new users. I think a Debian tasksel-like utility can be a key improvement (I could work on it) "Collection Software" [ ] FreeBSD desktop environment [ ] ... GNOME [ ] ... KDE [ ] ... XFCE [ ] Laptop [ ] ... Nvidia Optimus [ ] ... Intel drm-kmod [ ] Office and so on However, my installation is 2 years old, I don't know the current features of bsdinstall. Alfonso --- Alfonso S. Siciliano http://alfix.gitlab.io From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 14:49:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7692BFDB3 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:49:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zLWt2FWMz48KZ for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:49:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qt1-f170.google.com (mail-qt1-f170.google.com [209.85.160.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C7B2323E for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:49:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qt1-f170.google.com with SMTP id y25so1581293qtv.7 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:49:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaXX9Qrkr6iApO0Nm0qVjAcl/3vcwhP1b9snyu3xShlgMmOAatw x39StUqdZkn5PoXnn9bEwNNxXi5EM2Hzby1piEY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJx2zqAIJBVq9R5dVryJoWnK4jS8qOENAKfJqCeVFSjWplbdMTuTml28c3LUnei6eizfG0zBDcLdaJWDMNOcYo= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:65cc:: with SMTP id t12mr4643474qto.310.1586530185633; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:49:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200410061248.GK4213@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20200410061248.GK4213@funkthat.com> From: Kyle Evans Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 09:49:32 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:49:46 -0000 On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:12 AM John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > Kyle Evans wrote this message on Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 14:34 -0500: > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > > > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > > > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > > > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > > > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > > > experience for new users. > > > > Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: > > [...] > > > 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > > at least have basically usable history at a minimum > > Hmm... I wonder if this is a terminal issue or something. I do > remember /bin/sh not working w/ up/down arrow, but I just tried in > a jail, and up/down arrows work fine. Also, I normally just "set -o vi" > using /bin/sh to give me vi keys in the shell and then it just works... > > Guess more exploration is needed of a fresh install to figure it out... > My memory here is incredibly hazy, it may be that I was scarred by history not persisting at all across sessions or something like this; I quickly installed zsh and never looked back. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 15:32:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F632C0DCB for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:32:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zMTk4gKzz4BpW; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:32:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03AFWsNh041350 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:32:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=puchar.net; s=default; t=1586532775; bh=xmI8uGjuuCGubEYxKqC1062WWerVOtW48Fdd8IF7Qzo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=WC67ZF71sEBSPLndlK1d7QIWIWbaz9vJLatXnUReFihQJ5MLRQHgEK6H7ihx+QPFy oWMyDGdUUp2t0YSNdKFv34S885R2+GFDnnnJu3DUceLdmkabEbRsl8qaCFdQ3btMPg SyIUvwYev+tavcJxRgjk/DwTXBylv0XnXZnhORPA= Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 03AFWsWM041347; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:32:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:32:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Ed Maste cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zMTk4gKzz4BpW X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:32:59 -0000 Not really interesting to turn good OS to runtime environment for point and click crap. Fortunately it is still possible to use graphical mode with something more normal. like full screen programs and switching between then with keypresses. All with good old fvwm2. my 20 year old fvwm2 config survived linux, netbsd, then (longest) FreeBSD mostly unchanged. The sad part is that we need Xorg at all. Why unix idea of console espace sequences didn't evolve properly to support all graphics? X11 is a disaster from the start, turned to even worse disaster after. Not FreeBSD fault of course From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 15:35:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EE52C0FA2 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:35:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zMXG1TBdz4C4h for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:35:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03AFZ55a042156 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:35:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=puchar.net; s=default; t=1586532905; bh=1vMmGddgkrFn08hBWBkOPicLfMrrtyTAOZYS5ydglrc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=RP4TiKwI2PwxtZEcHs6qjd4Jwi4+4R7O7XwOPjvQzW/AW7hNzXdRdN6eA/gifbEof +KHATzf9wjdMPBkjsrktyhkZ87T1km1T7vjBO71VAn8SktKVhBRgyi5OOHkQ8qQDQW IivrzrkoY9tqNhEVFZ5mPJvWMRaD26T4t5fQdqP0= Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 03AFZ44u042148; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:35:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:35:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Eugene Grosbein cc: Wojciech Puchar , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12, arp -s/-f cannot allocate memory In-Reply-To: <36079a44-0fdd-2eec-cf6d-c54ef92a6f0d@grosbein.net> Message-ID: References: <36079a44-0fdd-2eec-cf6d-c54ef92a6f0d@grosbein.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zMXG1TBdz4C4h X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail (rsa verify failed) header.d=puchar.net header.s=default header.b=RP4TiKwI; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_DKIM_REJECT(1.00)[puchar.net:s=default]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[puchar.net:-]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.52)[ip: (-6.68), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-3.34), asn: 43476(-2.67), country: PL(0.06)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:35:12 -0000 > >> arp in FreeBSD 12 cannot fill static entries for interface that is set to up by ifconfig but no cable plugged. >> it says "cannot allocate memory" >> when cable is plugged it works properly. >> why? > > No enough information, you should describe your network configuration in details. > > Maybe the interface in question obtains IP address via DHCP and it cannot be configured without cable plugged in, More details when i will be able to log in to this computer (now it's powered off). No - all interfaces are statically configured. The one i talk about is re(4) with 10.1.0.1/24 address. No DHCP client. No devd running. But dhcpd runs on re0. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 18:13:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384432C4E86 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from debdrup@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zR2p0gJLz4Ncf for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from debdrup@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com (mail-yb1-f173.google.com [209.85.219.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: debdrup) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 011BC4E3F for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from debdrup@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id e17so1626484ybq.0 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:13:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuayChZc7sQEoc7+ijwNIduzwVKAuIOmJapKaY+z3hrGzMg+Xd8S fl1eycv2867OOrktUmO587+OOFMGLHuuwZ7HrQG/XA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKK+xXK1CKqYypPabwCxmD4R+fWuxyYbty1r6PO0+VwBtFjrLNWxBKZsfAAJC0VAH8pwHMPe0VoRsLrQ++CnJg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4241:: with SMTP id p62mr9181534yba.242.1586542401449; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:13:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:6006:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:13:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200410164704.20942a6644bd1c122d1dd17c@gmail.com> References: <20200410164704.20942a6644bd1c122d1dd17c@gmail.com> From: Daniel Ebdrup Jensen Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:13:20 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Alfonso Siciliano Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:13:22 -0000 On 4/10/20, Alfonso Siciliano wrote: > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:05:32 -0400 > Ed Maste wrote: > >> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience >> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: >> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ >> >> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, >> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience >> a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good >> idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if >> appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD >> experience for new users. > > I think a Debian tasksel-like utility can be a key improvement > (I could work on it) > > "Collection Software" > > [ ] FreeBSD desktop environment > [ ] ... GNOME > [ ] ... KDE > [ ] ... XFCE > [ ] Laptop > [ ] ... Nvidia Optimus > [ ] ... Intel drm-kmod > [ ] Office > and so on > > However, my installation is 2 years old, I don't know the > current features of bsdinstall. > > Alfonso > > --- > Alfonso S. Siciliano > http://alfix.gitlab.io > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Just on the off-chance that you (or anyone else following this thread) isn't aware of it, Devin Teske recently announced work much like this [1], and Devin took over maintainership/work on bsdinstall from Nathan Whitehorn, so it's in the best hands possible. :) [1]: https://twitter.com/freebsdfrau/status/1248671577392033792 From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 20:23:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23152278097 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:23:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from CAN01-TO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr670049.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zTwn6XFGz4WP3 for ; 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FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.107.0.0/16]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[uoguelph.ca]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[49.67.107.40.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.39)[ipnet: 40.64.0.0/10(-3.76), asn: 8075(-3.16), country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[comcast.net]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:23:23 -0000 Mike Remski wrote:=0A= >On Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:39:45 PM EDT, Rick Macklem wrote:=0A= >> Ed Maste wrote:=0A= >>> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience=0A= >>> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop:=0A= >>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-revie= w-freebsd-12-1-release/=0A= >>>=0A= >>> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding,=0A= >>> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience = ...=0A= >> Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here...=0A= >>=0A= >> One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others=0A= >> have suggested=0A= >> this before)=85=0A= >> What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that install= s=0A= >> X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"?=0A= >> --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just=0A= >> stuff that is widely=0A= >> available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD.=0A= >> Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display=0A= >> chip sets that work=0A= >> well, etc and so on...=0A= >>=0A= >> If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the reg= ular=0A= >> release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to=0A= >> date list of what=0A= >> hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it=0A= >> start up live CD=0A= >> style and then see if the hardware it needs is there.=0A= >> --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or...=0A= >>=0A= >> Just an idea, rick=0A= >> ps: I am not volunteering to help do this. I run FreeBSD on laptop/deskt= op=0A= >> systems, but bare bones. No X Windows...=0A= >=0A= >Something like what old PCBSD did? How about FuryBSD as a starting point?= =0A= >Joe Maloney is layering either XFCE or KDE (2 different ISO/install media)= =0A= >on top of a FreeBSD install, so out of the box, the install gives you=0A= >FreeBSD with either XFCE or KDE.=0A= Yes. I'll admit I didn't know FuryBSD existed until now, but if the web pag= e is=0A= accurate, it would be fine.=0A= =0A= Maybe all that should be done is a reference to it on FreeBSD's web page.= =0A= "If you are new to FreeBSD and want a desktop system, you could try..."=0A= FreeNAS should be mentioned as well, for people who want a NAS server, imho= .=0A= =0A= Although I said a new FreeBSD release, I don't see why it needs to be done = by=0A= the FreeBSD project itself, just that I didn't realize others were currentl= y doing this.=0A= =0A= Maybe someone should ask the author of this article to try FuryBSD?=0A= =0A= >Disclaimer: I've been using FreeBSD with X as a daily driver for a long= =0A= >time and honestly never found it that difficult to set up. Hardest was=0A= >when everything started to need the drm-kmod bits, but once I understood= =0A= >what I needed to do, it's not been an issue.=0A= I feel about the same w.r.t. NFS servers.=0A= However, I've known good technical people who just haven't used FreeBSD=0A= who have found FreeNAS worked just fine whereas setting up a server using= =0A= a FreeBSD release didn't work for them.=0A= =0A= rick=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list=0A= https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers=0A= To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"= =0A= From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 20:34:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBCE27856C for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:34:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zV955zrtz4Wxr for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id 142so3097981ljj.7 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IcTPpSDSccGPGcRDdYJTqhX5ekvFxHvPr1xLPCrfWN4=; b=npPFanfi5tbiLkRM93p10VBHz/SqyRTbDrR9wEngXi1UIEVIZR0v0R1b0M8zMVsRrs ay41243rWZxZhYoTCqlTVqCcqpQRSbjaE1RkofRtxzrL3UewtEXQhdz6R1zIyNuWlxmh 2ZYSGdLZYmr95YLuZg9VhxuqxRPMYpJxGsd81ukrF+HqD7pD2cr3tx7io6y0pUBC879c pZHxU8mb2FVmaMhO4MTqSkAFzNxoJPa+FtiY9yZ4bcgiW6fZsp9NcJTOxDHgy7z3891p zZtNC1mSvwyA6VAS1T/ahf4iyBOtIq9ZUj4P4D42cKlacGBm07XMLsw5UCaQWRZhjvA7 o1lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IcTPpSDSccGPGcRDdYJTqhX5ekvFxHvPr1xLPCrfWN4=; b=GMbWfjfyn+rhnfIRNil8L9R2W5mqxiXIiCBenjlkcGu/+bnSBhMYHjvSeYCry1Y2II abS4+f9dei1iToHNRSG8pgr9WcYJN0zZG8V3O9hmHeTRvZg1lOlVbTnN6/6Ca/rvePR5 eVgFOo94dQJBoZYQz1lAMec4BNYzrgiKpeTtkrhd+FiXS5aeW9cDmegkVjjjyxn6bfRt bi0wn2udrsxV0CU1oToQ527B6V7c71fycBNz0U37Up/AiVlE1OoB/UD9+ShpQfF+rHbB CeZ4QAsLRWwyTj+nP1g9ZLgQ0r1LHCHWowlbgIV515G2ExqyP4pv2G/chX+81SQdGmd/ 41NQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PublX6CckkBAK2tUnAahsvqrIKvxR2wORXCrPkczPSoKGp+0CYJ7 xBaQkJzrRNkflyadfYzRLL9IRFO5aw971J5WYxw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJWxEofxW/LukzP1RQoBIKCxjwydGKgJHKGFNmv5GO6l2QuE6Gpzzk42RmMICriSUufF/QXm6/BjBa1vhCreu0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:800a:: with SMTP id j10mr4003245ljg.65.1586550839171; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9bc85f04-ed38-4d5a-bec3-551079cdcb2b@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: From: Freddie Cash Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:33:46 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Rick Macklem Cc: FreeBSD Hackers X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zV955zrtz4Wxr X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=npPFanfi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of fjwcash@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=fjwcash@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.24), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.36), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:34:02 -0000 On Fri., Apr. 10, 2020, 1:23 p.m. Rick Macklem, wrote: > Yes. I'll admit I didn't know FuryBSD existed until now, but if the web > page is > accurate, it would be fine. > > Maybe all that should be done is a reference to it on FreeBSD's web page. > "If you are new to FreeBSD and want a desktop system, you could try..." > FreeNAS should be mentioned as well, for people who want a NAS server, > imho. > > Although I said a new FreeBSD release, I don't see why it needs to be done > by > the FreeBSD project itself, just that I didn't realize others were > currently doing this. > > Maybe someone should ask the author of this article to try FuryBSD? > FuryBSD and GhostBSD were mentioned in the comments, and the author, Jim Salter, is currently in the process of reviewing the latter. He's mentioned he'll take a look at the further sometime in the future. Cheers, Freddie Typos due to smartphone keyboard. > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Apr 10 20:36:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EAE27885E for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:36:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zVDQ69z7z4XCY for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:36:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at52.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jN0JK-0004YN-Sm for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:31:34 +0200 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id R8Xa2200c4YLlkt0B8XaUB; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:31:34 +0200 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=N659UExz7-8A:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=hPoJL0YCAAAA:8 a=0X_d-KYpx1y4vMe0VsIA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:32:59 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <9bc85f04-ed38-4d5a-bec3-551079cdcb2b@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202004102233.00017.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zVDQ69z7z4XCY X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.953,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(1.05), asn: 6830(3.69), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[142.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:36:55 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Fri, 10 Apr 20:23:20 +0000 Rick Macklem scripsit: > Mike Remski wrote: > >On Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:39:45 PM EDT, Rick Macklem wrote: > >> Ed Maste wrote: > >>> Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > >>> with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > >>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-rev= iew-freebsd-12-1-release/ > >>> > >>> There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > >>> but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experienc= e ... > >> Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here... > >> > >> One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others > >> have suggested > >> this before)=85 > >> What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that insta= lls > >> X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"? > >> --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just > >> stuff that is widely > >> available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD. > >> Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display > >> chip sets that work > >> well, etc and so on... > >> > >> If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the r= egular > >> release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to > >> date list of what > >> hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it > >> start up live CD > >> style and then see if the hardware it needs is there. > >> --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or... > >> > >> Just an idea, rick > >> ps: I am not volunteering to help do this. I run FreeBSD on laptop/des= ktop > >> systems, but bare bones. No X Windows... > > > >Something like what old PCBSD did? How about FuryBSD as a starting poin= t? > >Joe Maloney is layering either XFCE or KDE (2 different ISO/install medi= a) > >on top of a FreeBSD install, so out of the box, the install gives you > >FreeBSD with either XFCE or KDE. > Yes. I'll admit I didn't know FuryBSD existed until now, but if the web p= age is > accurate, it would be fine. I just tried the XFCE version of it after reading about it here. It's quite= nice :) Nik >=20 > Maybe all that should be done is a reference to it on FreeBSD's web page. > "If you are new to FreeBSD and want a desktop system, you could try..." > FreeNAS should be mentioned as well, for people who want a NAS server, im= ho. >=20 > Although I said a new FreeBSD release, I don't see why it needs to be don= e by > the FreeBSD project itself, just that I didn't realize others were curren= tly doing this. >=20 > Maybe someone should ask the author of this article to try FuryBSD? >=20 > >Disclaimer: I've been using FreeBSD with X as a daily driver for a long > >time and honestly never found it that difficult to set up. Hardest was > >when everything started to need the drm-kmod bits, but once I understood > >what I needed to do, it's not been an issue. > I feel about the same w.r.t. NFS servers. > However, I've known good technical people who just haven't used FreeBSD > who have found FreeNAS worked just fine whereas setting up a server using > a FreeBSD release didn't work for them. >=20 > rick >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 =2D-=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 00:46:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAD22A835F for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 00:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gate2.funkthat.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zbmH60GBz3Nqh; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 00:46:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03B0kKmr014583 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03B0kK19014582; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:46:20 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Kyle Evans Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Message-ID: <20200411004620.GL4213@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Hackers References: <20200410061248.GK4213@funkthat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.3-STABLE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: D87A 235F FB71 1F3F 55B7 ED9B D5FF 5A51 C0AC 3D65 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: https://www.funkthat.com/ X-Resume: https://www.funkthat.com/~jmg/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zbmH60GBz3Nqh X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 00:46:24 -0000 Kyle Evans wrote this message on Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 09:49 -0500: > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:12 AM John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > > > Kyle Evans wrote this message on Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 14:34 -0500: > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:05 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > > > > > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > > > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > > > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > > > > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > > > > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > > > > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > > > > experience for new users. > > > > > > Random small collection of thoughts I had after reading this: > > > > [...] > > > > > 2. re: default shell and niceties: complete agreement, IMO we should > > > at least have basically usable history at a minimum > > > > Hmm... I wonder if this is a terminal issue or something. I do > > remember /bin/sh not working w/ up/down arrow, but I just tried in > > a jail, and up/down arrows work fine. Also, I normally just "set -o vi" > > using /bin/sh to give me vi keys in the shell and then it just works... > > > > Guess more exploration is needed of a fresh install to figure it out... > > My memory here is incredibly hazy, it may be that I was scarred by > history not persisting at all across sessions or something like this; > I quickly installed zsh and never looked back. Yeah, history isn't kept by default, not sure if there's an option to keep it, if there is, I don't see it in the man page, and ctrl-r doesn't work either. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 03:37:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D9E2AD167 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:37:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from neel@neelc.org) Received: from rainpuddle.neelc.org (rainpuddle.neelc.org [IPv6:2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zgYd1M9tz43jD; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:37:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from neel@neelc.org) Received: from mail.neelc.org (rainpuddle.neelc.org [IPv6:2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622]) by rainpuddle.neelc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0AAB3B2835; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:37:16 -0700 From: Neel Chauhan To: lev@freebsd.org Cc: "Andrey V. Elsukov" , "Rodney W. Grimes" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch In-Reply-To: <1bc864df-0b09-fad4-3781-d7975c385b0e@FreeBSD.org> References: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <7284239b-e335-b219-b28a-386f0edd4f8e@yandex.ru> <1bc864df-0b09-fad4-3781-d7975c385b0e@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4.1 Message-ID: X-Sender: neel@neelc.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zgYd1M9tz43jD X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=neelc.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of neel@neelc.org designates 2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=neel@neelc.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-3.29)[ip: (-9.83), ipnet: 2001:19f0:8000::/38(-4.91), asn: 20473(-1.64), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[neelc.org,none]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:8000::/38, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yandex.ru]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:37:26 -0000 Thank you all for your feedback. Using the same Phabricator revision here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 I have added the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 specifiers and made src-ip/dst-ip dual-stack, to be consistent with me/me4/me6 described in this thread. Could you all please give your opinions on it? -Neel On 2020-04-10 04:10, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > On 10.04.2020 13:46, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > >> On 07.04.2020 20:35, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>> But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of >>> changing the "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 >>> and making src-ip/dst-ip a backwards compatible alias. >> >> I also think this idea sounds better. > > +1 From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 03:47:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8CE2AD49F for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:47:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from neel@neelc.org) Received: from rainpuddle.neelc.org (rainpuddle.neelc.org [IPv6:2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zgmy5Vzpz44G4; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:47:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from neel@neelc.org) Received: from mail.neelc.org (rainpuddle.neelc.org [IPv6:2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622]) by rainpuddle.neelc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A384B2838; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:47:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:47:11 -0700 From: Neel Chauhan To: lev@freebsd.org Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Andrey V. Elsukov" Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch In-Reply-To: References: <202004071735.037HZ1mK093414@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <7284239b-e335-b219-b28a-386f0edd4f8e@yandex.ru> <1bc864df-0b09-fad4-3781-d7975c385b0e@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4.1 Message-ID: <16f314d64daf80a3e8cf885b207d344a@neelc.org> X-Sender: neel@neelc.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zgmy5Vzpz44G4 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=neelc.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of neel@neelc.org designates 2001:19f0:8001:fed:5400:2ff:fe73:c622 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=neel@neelc.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-3.29)[ip: (-9.84), ipnet: 2001:19f0:8000::/38(-4.92), asn: 20473(-1.64), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[neelc.org,none]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:8000::/38, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:47:15 -0000 To be clear, src-ip/dst-ip is currently IPv4-only, while I know "me" is dual-stack. If src-ip/dst-ip should stay IPv4-only, then the old patch is better in this case. If src-ip/dst-ip needs to be dual-stack, then the new patch is better. -Neel On 2020-04-10 20:37, Neel Chauhan wrote: > Thank you all for your feedback. > > Using the same Phabricator revision here: > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 > > I have added the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 specifiers and > made src-ip/dst-ip dual-stack, to be consistent with me/me4/me6 > described in this thread. > > Could you all please give your opinions on it? > > -Neel > > On 2020-04-10 04:10, Lev Serebryakov wrote: >> On 10.04.2020 13:46, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: >> >>> On 07.04.2020 20:35, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>>> But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of >>>> changing the "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 >>>> and making src-ip/dst-ip a backwards compatible alias. >>> >>> I also think this idea sounds better. >> >> +1 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 04:47:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D482AE498 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:47:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zj645vfwz47DR; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 03B4l1In020211; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 21:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 03B4l0x0020210; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 21:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202004110447.03B4l0x0020210@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Committing one ipfw(8) userland patch In-Reply-To: To: Neel Chauhan Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 21:47:00 -0700 (PDT) CC: lev@freebsd.org, "Rodney W. Grimes" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Andrey V. Elsukov" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48zj645vfwz47DR X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 69.59.192.140) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.045,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.27)[0.266,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (0.13), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.06), asn: 13868(0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:47:09 -0000 > Thank you all for your feedback. > > Using the same Phabricator revision here: > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D24234 > > I have added the src-ip4/dst-ip4 and src-ipv4/dst-ipv4 specifiers and > made src-ip/dst-ip dual-stack, to be consistent with me/me4/me6 > described in this thread. > > Could you all please give your opinions on it? I took a look at this and D24021 and am a bit confused as no changes are actually being made to the kernel ipfw code, so how does it know which are now dual vs single stack. As far as I can see no actual change would be experienced by the me/me4/me6 changes as they are all simply encoded as O_IP_{SRC,DST}_ME when it gets to the kernel. It could be I am missing something, it has been a very long time since I looked at the inards of ipfw. Also I am not sure if you want to attempt to flag no-op cases like ipfw add ip4 from me6 to any which I believe would be allowed and create a rule that never matched anything. (Actually with the current code I think it would still match local ipv4 address, which arguable is wrong.) > -Neel > > On 2020-04-10 04:10, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > > On 10.04.2020 13:46, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > > > >> On 07.04.2020 20:35, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > >>> But that is not what this review does. I would be in support of > >>> changing the "official" names to src-ip4/dst-ip4/src-ip6/dst-ip6 > >>> and making src-ip/dst-ip a backwards compatible alias. > >> > >> I also think this idea sounds better. > > > > +1 I am glad people liked this solution, lets make sure it is implemented cleanly and in a 100% backwards compatible way, breaking ipfw rule sets is frowned upon by users. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 20:26:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4D9279FE3 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 20:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gbergling@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4905xk59npz44sn; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 20:26:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gbergling@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id v5so5980117wrp.12; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:26:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=wjt70VTi/AmQKAW61e7dAeSNJBUJry0VKAqPmO9+dj0=; b=aAp4iCHC0tCSLiPpyiGDS7hkA3E0Yr1fXCkk2XJP3wgb5JP9r8x9p0EQo7HB58ZSL0 nOtJZ9P29Tb7qZnEBp+05IED6iCXBSO5gxANiGb4spbtLW+gPq5zicRYhv74Y56rot5b FoBZJWbDySPpeHIHHIAm3uV+RTKkqNG9CZTnPnALuRgf8DLKIsOi1CGmXYh1HXVMJJvS gLIakchJ3nGQ8WkZa0rf7kdwgMzf8/RZ37r5cWjGFC+9ULuaLa3rEMb5SnVhSW45R5nW Yuk2MTdnAqfLPw8Nii7cQxlNMD1LiODXU+ffumARUBc9Zjqq10NbLWrhZUFEx2AQeBPH HKNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=wjt70VTi/AmQKAW61e7dAeSNJBUJry0VKAqPmO9+dj0=; b=gzfUhaafuYPDrm744HUzQKCKngxl586gjPsH8x9UvTWNF5FIZHGEepZ37VHQ6kuMO8 h+xH8x3yy4P0OJinf3XKmNNo+tOcG25oYPcE4fqjEyAICIqAJBEsx76mlumZ7KG8EmDk x1xHmhe6Yy838y9qV1J2vOeoicVltdTZ3ty0sm3zzcrb5ZAcFkBPOu7WoG+UjsYdnAGz PqylD0zwOqOs26ZTSemyqtjOfW7pW0lQs2ntIAgagpHwZdKeZF5dycrwV6n89xXe6EEZ 4F2SKtrC6ZcRuhTtMDlBKBuWgHM5iHO2EhKQHgMJCqg7h5L3yITKrZurRLOj3zZcH4qC X3og== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubRjxssZL6J8xZRTYAg1ViFhWrGYJAyRNy3dilLcaNcj3G2lsZ5 NYZ2r5ckFarxshbxbslUrhocgZiE73Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKhsZxX8MPIQTW3/kDgS9ochVySJBnaWYmI0FHNPDieQ0UJrJhZ434YndE9NlvhyPwdnhkb1A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:97cc:: with SMTP id t12mr9981532wrb.261.1586636776935; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.111] (p4FD3AF72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [79.211.175.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l5sm8500866wrm.66.2020.04.11.13.26.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience From: Gordon Bergling In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 22:26:15 +0200 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1FFE298E-A609-4570-A0BD-E530996C92CF@gmail.com> References: To: Ed Maste X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4905xk59npz44sn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=aAp4iCHC; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gbergling@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::431 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gbergling@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[114.175.211.79.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.10), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.36), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 20:26:19 -0000 Hi Ed, I read this article a few times in detail, but some parts are still = driving me nuts. I agree that FreeBSD isn=E2=80=99t maybe that best = Operating System for the Desktop User, but please, nailing it all down = on the installation experience is strange at least. I think, it would = good to have an official response from the FreeBSD Foundation, to say at = least. =E2=80=94 Gordon > Am 09.04.2020 um 21:05 schrieb Ed Maste : >=20 > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > = https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-f= reebsd-12-1-release/ >=20 > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience > a new (or newish) desktop FreeBSD user will have. It will be a good > idea for us to examine these, and offer advice or corrections if > appropriate, and otherwise look how we can improve the FreeBSD > experience for new users. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 21:04:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4BE27B3C2 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4906nc229wz47R0; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03BL4GP7073323 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:04:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=puchar.net; s=default; t=1586639056; bh=KtueLTq7P6Ij7B8ZjrOrZbI4axk/JzhOAkIwuDyRu/I=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=JmjOjBRnFiPmtJzU4+V4jaV8O0zyy2skPy+FjGFI6BdD30Fbr7zb5OzYhpCMlbAD5 P54FgANF39J0I/eipD/mXFBh43tsIZMZ1SgczWCjtJNgQTRZCH6vE9Jo9fj2a43ri/ p3cPxGxMx/IOiS4Krs6puYhotLszsU7SWRN5/yrQ= Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 03BL4G9s073320; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:04:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:04:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Gordon Bergling cc: Ed Maste , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience In-Reply-To: <1FFE298E-A609-4570-A0BD-E530996C92CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <1FFE298E-A609-4570-A0BD-E530996C92CF@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4906nc229wz47R0 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail (rsa verify failed) header.d=puchar.net header.s=default header.b=JmjOjBRn; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.81 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_REJECT(1.00)[puchar.net:s=default]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/mixed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[puchar.net:-]; CTYPE_MIXED_BOGUS(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.51)[ip: (-6.65), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-3.33), asn: 43476(-2.66), country: PL(0.06)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:04:21 -0000 > > I read this article a few times in detail, but some parts are still driving me nuts. I agree that FreeBSD isn’t maybe that best Operating System for the Desktop User, but please, nailing it all down on the installation experience is strange at least. I think, it would good to have an official response from the FreeBSD Foundation, to say at least. > What do you expect from article written by someone without any real knowledge? One more software "in collection". installed, seen, wrote article, deleted. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 21:32:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD6927BFA7 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4907QH5cPwz48mB; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:32:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id c138so2715550pfc.0; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:32:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=xrIBiIVFQRyP3J4eGhgOzPAR5FkRH8jQb8UKLkH1QQA=; b=SEteJfd+7t0EQ5G8/iR3NMCz4a7KnhJU/vQpSCQKNKyQCqwldiCq2dGDKYG3VqWGd5 4BS2S9+nZRcSn+qywGW1NapcUz8mllAQXRgutzUsYMtKqxxY7VF0CtTSaygZpFAzOSFu NaQMTsdNXz1JbZ3HIIN8Gb0BC56KMLI6pJ5tkoMPgLdUtiKffvOJmNPYMZ8uSzJzfCq2 OVVJLZUdxHx2NI9HgzRESuJV6Ihndbqsg+EAnJyFRsxdOyPAeaSyav9vWTtByeHi9Cr6 AGgMnmVv3tfPD33OJXEpCKPctAjuWieVkwxdVyhcYsXJq1iA1kSQIKxRjikLSwiIzT7Z iGZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=xrIBiIVFQRyP3J4eGhgOzPAR5FkRH8jQb8UKLkH1QQA=; b=m1JBYZVvn0WpeelMUXsnSusv+lBwjWm5IQOJdUea1izlOM1tD4pbhdut7Ubs9ou93V 2aNoNjz683QlnfqMx3DC2NmRLmJvNo56EX8XbTDO34R6IYjjZ9lsbVMHKObDjNxdcrZU Ly7Dob2MaR0n7NQkiIXd/Gucpnb7gsc1Z5UbC67W9VNWvScikvNYq/SFfs4Pp72TiLO1 fis9l8V+eqHN0Z6ZZaZ8VQ/fWvA40tXFSgk6LjvLVgANcrfPxfp3XOOoqCfxzBJY6j2q Zfwmr6R/abUrhOO4PW7BpfFlsb4JHMF0+GyOH2+gTWQFq4HIovXVTJ3MpFEtgLp7hM7J BqOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubKNUn/4krNMVkmp5QdqnSvWlG7bSQy9/Zcm+lrc9ZjL24ZFHbJ S5M/dMk03vm0TcfkQErQOr5llZSHPlY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLMuD4e3ewVseWvOQC76ELcYCoRmZA0RakzkEE9DSOjvco0RCQMxekZ38nybUeWR0fizw2PsQ== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8645:: with SMTP id a5mr11160378pfo.74.1586640757764; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.20.26] (c-73-19-52-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [73.19.52.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f15sm4788174pfq.100.2020.04.11.14.32.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience From: Enji Cooper In-Reply-To: <20200411004620.GL4213@funkthat.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:32:36 -0700 Cc: Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7E83538A-9360-4B0D-9190-6E3A675C53DD@gmail.com> References: <20200410061248.GK4213@funkthat.com> <20200411004620.GL4213@funkthat.com> To: John-Mark Gurney X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4907QH5cPwz48mB X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=SEteJfd+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yaneurabeya@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yaneurabeya@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[228.52.19.73.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.84), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:32:41 -0000 > On Apr 10, 2020, at 5:46 PM, John-Mark Gurney = wrote: >=20 > Kyle Evans wrote this message on Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 09:49 -0500: =E2=80=A6 >> My memory here is incredibly hazy, it may be that I was scarred by >> history not persisting at all across sessions or something like this; >> I quickly installed zsh and never looked back. >=20 > Yeah, history isn't kept by default, not sure if there's an option to > keep it, if there is, I don't see it in the man page, and ctrl-r = doesn't > work either. There is history support, but it=E2=80=99s not on by default and = it=E2=80=99s not spelled the same way as other shells (I don=E2=80=99t = think it=E2=80=99s persistent between shell invocations, however): The following variables affect the execution of fc: FCEDIT Name of the editor to use for history = editing. HISTSIZE The number of previous commands that are accessible. Given that the only other base system shell option is csh, I opt = out of both and always install bash (I haven=E2=80=99t quite jumped on = the zsh train yet). Thanks, -Enji= From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 22:48:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D82327DF46 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 22:48:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "troutmask", Issuer "troutmask" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49095V758Vz4Dhn; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 22:48:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03BMm7MU027476 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03BMm7s5027475; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:48:07 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Enji Cooper Cc: John-Mark Gurney , Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Message-ID: <20200411224807.GA27470@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Reply-To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu References: <20200410061248.GK4213@funkthat.com> <20200411004620.GL4213@funkthat.com> <7E83538A-9360-4B0D-9190-6E3A675C53DD@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7E83538A-9360-4B0D-9190-6E3A675C53DD@gmail.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49095V758Vz4Dhn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=washington.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.95.76.21) smtp.mailfrom=sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[washington.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(-0.22)[ip: (0.02), ipnet: 128.95.0.0/16(-0.26), asn: 73(-0.82), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:73, ipnet:128.95.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 22:48:16 -0000 On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 02:32:36PM -0700, Enji Cooper wrote: > > Given that the only other base system shell option is csh, I opt out of both and always install bash (I haven’t quite jumped on the zsh train yet). > Thanks, tcsh != csh -- Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Apr 11 23:09:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D99827E4B0 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XeDRqK7aCu1Ce3255S1TgubJFDRyTLV6tdXfd84/JcU=; b=K+/VdZ3y00+VtmItPex2lrGptoEHxZq3nXlhh6m/FM+FkICPTXsyJBVVOYoUYCwkAL NIbpBZO12Thp8E48nt7THDaPXCssB/onp1DnjBrMekpg9EaLfiG7OtNuOrY+EVhuxC6+ vqpL+sz3qqKnmf2+bZRJapCdMY0vW/N0BF98KfbPWmP/ukctfT56KP0qgoktRbdTAtEn JdhX1tFm3HdcqnyzdqswH8m5TUQ+OHKYKI04BJRlbbFb1rOu2LYqacXra28+WSDsI9N2 ZKJZZO/SfkBg4MWdTdfUAWWHOrWNePUpOB015h78AxHWnJC/LImYWtmC3Trf7dmbais2 vhQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZabgCYYQfFKzkQ6yA1/uB8XDfLpjsEM5d54F/etO52EKb69i2z 1orLGRlh+uRSlFUY3sEQLsl8kNrTUpzzNT14TtikOddY X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLAvQ/GvRxkQQgKW2QoyPn18bbNVdptNaN5yTn1u9XeR//FtBYShewYNGJmRISKbGXEPDLuUHP5vYqu7MzKM2M= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:16ca:: with SMTP id t10mr10127564ejd.122.1586646569488; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:09:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1FFE298E-A609-4570-A0BD-E530996C92CF@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Freddie Cash Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:09:16 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience To: Wojciech Puchar Cc: FreeBSD Hackers X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4909Z31J2Nz4FW2 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=WZ1rXlE5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of fjwcash@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=fjwcash@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[f.2.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.55), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.36), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:09:32 -0000 On Sat., Apr. 11, 2020, 2:04 p.m. Wojciech Puchar, wrote: > > > > I read this article a few times in detail, but some parts are still > driving me nuts. I agree that FreeBSD isn=E2=80=99t maybe that best Opera= ting > System for the Desktop User, but please, nailing it all down on the > installation experience is strange at least. I think, it would good to ha= ve > an official response from the FreeBSD Foundation, to say at least. > > > > What do you expect from article written by someone without any real > knowledge? > > One more software "in collection". installed, seen, wrote article, > deleted. > Useless email posted by someone without any knowledge of the author. Yay? Yes, Jim doesn't have experience with current versions of FreeBSD (I believe this was his first introduction to bsdinstall). But he has years of experience with older versions, running ZFS-based systems. And with FreeNAS= . He's posted many times in the comments with updates and explanations. No, this wasn't an in-depth review of using FreeBSD for any particular purpose. But it was a decent review of the installation process, pointing out pain-points to those "not in the know". Instead of ripping into the author, maybe look for ways to improve the installation experience. There's some great info around the ZFS bits that those working on bsdinstall should look into (mostly around terminology). Cheers, Freddie Typos due to smartphone keyboard. >