From nobody Thu Jul 27 17:49:54 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RBdZW4VnBz4pxc9 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 17:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shurd@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RBdZW2VQyz3sQJ for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 17:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shurd@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1690480195; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=J5WWv4/i6CpCKF5HtKrlxxTBdgIMrScjNR+86xXdZXM=; b=DEqP7Ti5LkiwcZ0qM5sNDE+GT7JnMmiI8Sw/fTj3llQfqaJPFeVvUVih0h6CJerlev5Vjd RjKzMp8Zl9XhwOXUezMWF2dLpnUuptzrHleaQtw7if++hAv0S5iVK5O0KN5mPlFCd2jtu4 Py5i1v85slQSzgGGq7+2OBwHw38rw42juBDmgDk3MI2fpEtVXZKnr+t6jTAG8Wk/m32vUK IIV7QLlDUDl0yGQbclSDFy3zXCo67f49JnVB2ZRcC0mIXeeqZrmHNbExi6eucQA1Hl6U9C ZmoiLb3ZfZAkojVFp38Y+ayl0G3EuKzEk+hJkNFSVX5akyGo8MyluT4fpjvLkQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1690480195; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=J5WWv4/i6CpCKF5HtKrlxxTBdgIMrScjNR+86xXdZXM=; b=LoDVWKGSkD16G8BjNTutcfqV4qOCJh/Pz42ZpR+103b2QRu8GK9lGzki3L9smEsIfbrODl mUkxYkm2441F66SZtYmlHS267uE7zmEjCeM20+AOV8rTykDpZaQ30c0y8ey0+V5bLNHESA kfwYMVH2W1PFJPxvg8YYIBYIq7V4nFmYhMNvPjHr//vXZT1kgOo7xXty6kE+SAYdEWA3nT G+BsoyVfy4Nh0bq/ibtUC+L+94FAWoc+aNiPfOIknhIrsCQo06fBBy1AunTWjYxhcRre5z /mDxF3dKg4GYJbMWR0TkbthQR6LSec/h5BmTGzX5VLyc3pd+Ex69rSSbBepHbw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1690480195; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=G9GLvRtVFsFZ9C9B4qDDuPziqKRA8nn2W4fZOsvLlLsHqma7b2Mgq6M1KWMHlMl83JZXxN tD0IHN5trB6YRb3jrJHIbg/zPyn73XOUSeUIB2H181oujdZC+rWbuyz6UiU7rUIRz2WqqF TF3a+LrVRfkew2aAdw9GXLEQpyurjVT/cbgKzIqgRV80MzDvmVpelhu+GW1dujcLN6C7Am ZpI2c1ohezxaCIibM18bfJUJ/rvSI4/UR8EnvcB9LUETbheCdUvXZxJI2LzmRn52/Z74/P ZJv9PMKdCGCgKFMgU8PR/fzmkpidEsgMP6EE+FMGYGb/EPGiPnoxyBQtl98/Mg== Received: from [IPV6:2601:404:d700:2120:ec4:7aff:fec4:ac4a] (unknown [IPv6:2601:404:d700:2120:ec4:7aff:fec4:ac4a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: shurd) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4RBdZW0p9gzh3m for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 17:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shurd@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 12:49:54 -0500 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <5a08b091-a1a5-1928-18e1-16c3bddb1a7f@FreeBSD.org> <20230524083555.632d968778e2d1c05a04359f@bidouilliste.com> From: shurd@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20230524083555.632d968778e2d1c05a04359f@bidouilliste.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 > John Baldwin wrote: > >> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >>> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the announcement >>> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's future >>> around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested that >>> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. >>> >>> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 >>> platform. That is, release images and packages would only be provided >>> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. I >>> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base system >>> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. >>> >>> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward. >>> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly >>> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may >>> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, >>> but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another >>> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove >>> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The >>> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship) >>> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the >>> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as an >>> input into the final decision for 15. >> We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the consensus >> among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is >> that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, but not >> kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need for >> full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 support >> in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. >> >> One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient developer >> resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We can >> largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the release of >> 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we >> are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in 15.0, >> but may consider keeping armv7. > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for > supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no one > really have the time to keep support up to date. > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and iirc > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the > spotify clients are in rust). > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 low > level code. > > So I'm really interested in who wants to keep armv7 and why, is it > just "I'm using my RPI2 and wants to continue using it" ? > > Cheers, I realize I'm late to the party, but I just posted this: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41201 which led to me discovering this thread. The reason I did this was because I need to hack up a thing to go between the internet and a 1984 vintage computer with a 111,840bps serial port, and I want to integrate a supercap UPS into the design. Initially, I had thought to just use Linux on the device since it came with it, but for some reason, Linux couldn't receive at 111840 without dropping characters.  The Z80 system in question doesn't have flow control, so rather than fight with Linux, I decided to fight with something I like.  As it happens, FreeBSD has no issue with the serial port. So what's left that I'll need for my project is getting the ADC driver usable (it doesn't look like it's exposed outside of the kernel currently) to monitor/control the supercap UPS hardware.  I grabbed a few of these boards since they're so cheap ($20 each), so I'll likely be using more of them for various things. Doing the same development using NetBSD or OpenBSD would be a bit more painful since I'm running FreeBSD on all my systems, am familiar with building and installing it, and have the source laying around everywhere. I was actually quite surprised that there's packages available, but I'm not sure I would understand what a statement that we may not support them in 15 would actually mean.  armv7 is already Tier 2, which is explicitly not supported by secteam, releng, and ports.  If that just means moving it to Tier 3, that wouldn't bother me much, though I'm not sure how often universe fails because of it due to something that doesn't need to be fixed anyway.  If it means open season on deleting any armv7-specific "stuff" you happen across, it would bother me, and if it means someone taking a couple days to find all the armv7 stuff and removing it, it would feel spiteful. If armv7 is actually causing universe to fail in weird arm-specific ways that actually distract Tier 1 developers with irrelevant minutia, a move to Tier 3 is clearly warranted.  Maybe I just don't understand how much effort is being wasted on the level of support armv7 is currently getting. TL:DR: I want to keep armv7 because you can still do some cool things with it, but I don't insist anyone else do work beyond not breaking universe to keep it running (and if not breaking universe is a problem, I don't even insist on that). From nobody Thu Aug 3 14:08:33 2023 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RGrKt2t6bz2tvCm for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 14:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org (mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RGrKt0jP9z4G09 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 14:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691071714; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=vBTBI2EcvwhF032YXEtJQF5Evko2HkhnRqMTN5g0214=; b=Z5Q8z6Z/6xDIBu5CJbQrVyaNSHuW/7igxFnR6d3+vxPexw4JliebV+vPJ2S6ZrY7hXNLHR /Gsj+YhPVRpnLVaIWkgodLZNUFICa0gcHOqI7SF9YtDthDBXFdi9DhYudMi2q4Z3W8fp/h g58W6PHZ/wvOLYejIp3NXaDUzN3LAn+HLKsjFMzuD2v231SloLPg1GHtn4bh0pe3I8sGEc eQ8BteZac7mNEIJacuSpIHcSpo+YtwvcCxo7Tt1Q+aeONDSVdygEDp+oqXolcXXmnNtnAL pavP14hTulPCwYaf43TR5fk7uZ6scR5sSN1EA9lcxCr76EFaWMgY34zuUe2KzQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1691071714; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=wfa4cJuu3OHVpCbqvvSQNjX1J6WzhBJFKlw1ovjKGbk8q1iqgF+UF4jzV9GGJnrF40NMU9 elD4iGxdvVhYoIC13qeCJ7IoE2/Ox4C1zlnOpRA6hiSpN6pk5RSO8Dt9j2D6T2Jcd28oNK mhu+jLfvs3xFZB43F1X61z1YhqMKlX2rkRH/0sPGCZCItmSQs95uG97faU7+sPguTE8D3W Tv164ZCFCl4liV2xcJw7isACe51W2UqJZZzCGyuJ6T775QkB9ko/vDjwezORNdGILmrvPr yfvqNAp1/3qt+HZiKkrSB8bmUvsLsLrPr6nofhm1Q9lbLZ17a9zIw/XvJIAnQw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:1d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RGrKs68rPz7wH for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 14:08:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.5]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 373E8XgW092488 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 14:08:33 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: (from bugzilla@localhost) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 373E8Xrd092487 for arch@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 14:08:33 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: kenobi.freebsd.org: bugzilla set sender to bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org using -f From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 270481] intro(9) needs an update/rewrite Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:08:33 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Documentation X-Bugzilla-Component: Manual Pages X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Only Me X-Bugzilla-Who: commit-hook@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: In Progress X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: mhorne@freebsd.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D270481 --- Comment #3 from commit-hook@FreeBSD.org --- A commit in branch main references this bug: URL: https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=3D84f9f2c5cf7841fffc03ccb1833814892= ae15132 commit 84f9f2c5cf7841fffc03ccb1833814892ae15132 Author: Mitchell Horne AuthorDate: 2023-08-03 13:48:15 +0000 Commit: Mitchell Horne CommitDate: 2023-08-03 14:07:41 +0000 intro(9): rewrite from scratch This page has existed as a placeholder since its creation in 1995. It does not provide a useful introduction to the content in this section. Reimagine it as a top-level overview page containing brief descriptions and links to existing pages in section 9. It is roughly organized into sub-sections, grouped by topic or subsystem. In other words, the page is meant to function as a map to other content. There is a balance to be found here between providing as many links as possible and keeping the page concise and searchable. In general the aim is to reference pages which provide the best entry point to a particular topic. For example, a link is given to locking(9), but not to the specific lock pages such as mutex(9) or rwlock(9). NetBSD has done something similar with their intro(9), so some inspiration has been taken from there, although their content doesn't align that closely with what we have. I have done a thorough review of our existing pages and formed these subsections around them, but they are meant to evolve. PR: 270481 Reviewed by: imp, emaste MFC after: 3 weeks Relnotes: yes Sponsored by: The FreeBSD Foundation Differential Revision: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41104 share/man/man9/intro.9 | 594 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----= ---- 1 file changed, 504 insertions(+), 90 deletions(-) --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.= From nobody Thu Aug 3 19:57:08 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RH0456QlTz4Tv56 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 19:57:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RH0455z8Gz3Dl8; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 19:57:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691092629; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=YJo1ezMWTjmDyPfuukJO66xc9lKYL7z9ADYT80uIa8I=; b=M8a27z0bwhcrj+aUYQ3QD8EcGuwIpO63uKhociTiy1WnE7mR+rGVH3I4LC+Otn4By8xK0B 0kx7O84UwXT4tznHbxws/g4LTFJGdEIycfiTn6MHJd+xHZt9JcC9H4XSgS1a2qbQQNk+0Q 6wqDDug1B9oRz6dv0REB83GoC7RNYw1pdUb2o48sSBLMngYgbURhTXm4RUxP8wR2YPLioD yKNtmdD5aeauIqk8wF0mpQYjwh3SsOJpapsZkDsIdmcesReNrO/LGmbx9UBJ2LQ9cOIHSv /tM6Xruq4PACu3XfeYZJuqt4K88+fdjlhO0r+qQGORTq9Bn4geEvKbt8gmpk3g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691092629; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=YJo1ezMWTjmDyPfuukJO66xc9lKYL7z9ADYT80uIa8I=; b=nYOZ7PTqEmo5yFINgRi+aB7gUPPqb+y+YqVuZz2bXo+oVMi+9IKiNbUES2DPqTkg9m6iD4 KFqMERGxGYIAa7T51bkLg2UmO9TKJa7KYfBBxOASiJtN9o7859TqRefeWivPTsJIu7kd3e Cck3J1wznsrCFvJUxu52OSiYDvAbhU9+2dU7O8Lg7SI99+bHLqCgw3ix79HZ/IdiXiiJa8 y/dLIYapXa0oRZkMqu1XecdhfEcS/jXUL1IyLyF2ZXhfzrLCNvuhoUyc76zJU4/vJu9J9t zqHrTgV+7eNp4T70qobynzn0FZ742QTjUYezUusYfmdhrrEeJIbr6ZWrQKSuFw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1691092629; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=e+/AwakqjcQWVYz6Z/9SH+R+BVWkAgqi+mEyd9vQ1uIunMpHP6QBj/bU7mTiouXBlz5KTO zNzAagUoj/4VIGGWz/kQb+N5t9qgQNvkWAKT/u1wx0r1TqRDJJaKR7INEXFYIdVHGrTDnx ShnikXg//n+b7paFXdDgbLHNwFJT4OlTAKLoyqbLjYhmUG+Oj6RVZA2Mkkt017ozTbHHW8 AmMEcXPc36E8Bm9WQyKNM/c9/9yUjXWS5bOKe27PcKzx+P/begV2ljAmEZOXDaCSYjwUVM /JJDlEdjC3WID1r9zqzC9CUkT9W98zasYRLbRPXJbBXfE6KSPVn9ayEDX+t7pA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2601:648:8680:16b0:cdd2:66b:dfd1:f731] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8680:16b0:cdd2:66b:dfd1:f731]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4RH04534klzCGq; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 19:57:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <10aef6b2-8414-dc8e-b6a4-9215bd30c222@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 12:57:08 -0700 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US To: shurd@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <5a08b091-a1a5-1928-18e1-16c3bddb1a7f@FreeBSD.org> <20230524083555.632d968778e2d1c05a04359f@bidouilliste.com> From: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: > On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: >> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 >> John Baldwin wrote: >> >>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >>>> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the announcement >>>> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's future >>>> around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested that >>>> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. >>>> >>>> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 >>>> platform. That is, release images and packages would only be provided >>>> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. I >>>> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base system >>>> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. >>>> >>>> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward. >>>> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly >>>> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may >>>> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, >>>> but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another >>>> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove >>>> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The >>>> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship) >>>> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the >>>> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as an >>>> input into the final decision for 15. >>> We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the consensus >>> among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is >>> that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, but not >>> kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need for >>> full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 support >>> in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. >>> >>> One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient developer >>> resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We can >>> largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the release of >>> 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we >>> are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in 15.0, >>> but may consider keeping armv7. >> I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, >> nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there >> was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for >> supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no one >> really have the time to keep support up to date. >> I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to >> time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and iirc >> go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards >> (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the >> spotify clients are in rust). >> IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very >> active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 low >> level code. >> >> So I'm really interested in who wants to keep armv7 and why, is it >> just "I'm using my RPI2 and wants to continue using it" ? >> >> Cheers, > > I realize I'm late to the party, but I just posted this: > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41201 which led to me discovering this > thread. > > The reason I did this was because I need to hack up a thing to go > between the internet and a 1984 vintage computer with a 111,840bps > serial port, and I want to integrate a supercap UPS into the design. > > Initially, I had thought to just use Linux on the device since it came > with it, but for some reason, Linux couldn't receive at 111840 without > dropping characters.  The Z80 system in question doesn't have flow > control, so rather than fight with Linux, I decided to fight with > something I like.  As it happens, FreeBSD has no issue with the serial > port. > > So what's left that I'll need for my project is getting the ADC driver > usable (it doesn't look like it's exposed outside of the kernel > currently) to monitor/control the supercap UPS hardware.  I grabbed a > few of these boards since they're so cheap ($20 each), so I'll likely be > using more of them for various things. > > Doing the same development using NetBSD or OpenBSD would be a bit more > painful since I'm running FreeBSD on all my systems, am familiar with > building and installing it, and have the source laying around > everywhere. > > I was actually quite surprised that there's packages available, but I'm > not sure I would understand what a statement that we may not support > them in 15 would actually mean.  armv7 is already Tier 2, which is > explicitly not supported by secteam, releng, and ports.  If that just > means moving it to Tier 3, that wouldn't bother me much, though I'm not > sure how often universe fails because of it due to something that > doesn't need to be fixed anyway.  If it means open season on deleting > any armv7-specific "stuff" you happen across, it would bother me, and if > it means someone taking a couple days to find all the armv7 stuff and > removing it, it would feel spiteful. > > If armv7 is actually causing universe to fail in weird arm-specific ways > that actually distract Tier 1 developers with irrelevant minutia, a move > to Tier 3 is clearly warranted.  Maybe I just don't understand how much > effort is being wasted on the level of support armv7 is currently > getting. > > TL:DR: I want to keep armv7 because you can still do some cool things > with it, but I don't insist anyone else do work beyond not breaking > universe to keep it running (and if not breaking universe is a problem, > I don't even insist on that). It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting the use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone would need to do the work to make that happen). This is already starting to be a problem in ports because some 3rd party software (like py-cryptography) is requiring rust for modern versions, but we are currently holding that port back to cater to armv7. Platforms have to have enough active developers supporting them to remain viable. -- John Baldwin From nobody Thu Aug 3 21:23:46 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RH2035SQgz4V1rP for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 21:23:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shurd@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RH2034vZGz3RZf; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 21:23:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shurd@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691097827; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; 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FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US To: John Baldwin , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <5a08b091-a1a5-1928-18e1-16c3bddb1a7f@FreeBSD.org> <20230524083555.632d968778e2d1c05a04359f@bidouilliste.com> <10aef6b2-8414-dc8e-b6a4-9215bd30c222@FreeBSD.org> From: shurd@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <10aef6b2-8414-dc8e-b6a4-9215bd30c222@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2023-08-03 14:57, John Baldwin wrote: > On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: >> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: >>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 >>> John Baldwin wrote: >>> >>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >>>>> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2.  In the >>>>> announcement >>>>> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's future >>>>> around the time of 14.0.  The announcement at the time suggested that >>>>> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. >>>>> >>>>> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 >>>>> platform.  That is, release images and packages would only be >>>>> provided >>>>> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them.  I >>>>> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base system >>>>> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. >>>>> >>>>> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving >>>>> forward. >>>>> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly >>>>> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15.  That is, that we may >>>>> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, >>>>> but we do not plan on building packages or release images.  Another >>>>> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove >>>>> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland.  The >>>>> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship) >>>>> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the >>>>> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as an >>>>> input into the final decision for 15. >>>> We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the >>>> consensus >>>> among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is >>>> that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, >>>> but not >>>> kernels for other platforms.  In addition, no one expressed a need for >>>> full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 >>>> support >>>> in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. >>>> >>>> One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient developer >>>> resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15.  We can >>>> largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the >>>> release of >>>> 15.0.  I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we >>>> are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in >>>> 15.0, >>>> but may consider keeping armv7. >>>    I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, >>> nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there >>> was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for >>> supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no one >>> really have the time to keep support up to date. >>>    I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to >>> time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and iirc >>> go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards >>> (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the >>> spotify clients are in rust). >>>    IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very >>> active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 low >>> level code. >>> >>>    So I'm really interested in who wants to keep armv7 and why, is it >>> just "I'm using my RPI2 and wants to continue using it" ? >>> >>>    Cheers, >> >> I realize I'm late to the party, but I just posted this: >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41201 which led to me discovering this >> thread. >> >> The reason I did this was because I need to hack up a thing to go >> between the internet and a 1984 vintage computer with a 111,840bps >> serial port, and I want to integrate a supercap UPS into the design. >> >> Initially, I had thought to just use Linux on the device since it came >> with it, but for some reason, Linux couldn't receive at 111840 without >> dropping characters.  The Z80 system in question doesn't have flow >> control, so rather than fight with Linux, I decided to fight with >> something I like.  As it happens, FreeBSD has no issue with the serial >> port. >> >> So what's left that I'll need for my project is getting the ADC driver >> usable (it doesn't look like it's exposed outside of the kernel >> currently) to monitor/control the supercap UPS hardware.  I grabbed a >> few of these boards since they're so cheap ($20 each), so I'll likely be >> using more of them for various things. >> >> Doing the same development using NetBSD or OpenBSD would be a bit more >> painful since I'm running FreeBSD on all my systems, am familiar with >> building and installing it, and have the source laying around >> everywhere. >> >> I was actually quite surprised that there's packages available, but I'm >> not sure I would understand what a statement that we may not support >> them in 15 would actually mean.  armv7 is already Tier 2, which is >> explicitly not supported by secteam, releng, and ports.  If that just >> means moving it to Tier 3, that wouldn't bother me much, though I'm not >> sure how often universe fails because of it due to something that >> doesn't need to be fixed anyway.  If it means open season on deleting >> any armv7-specific "stuff" you happen across, it would bother me, and if >> it means someone taking a couple days to find all the armv7 stuff and >> removing it, it would feel spiteful. >> >> If armv7 is actually causing universe to fail in weird arm-specific ways >> that actually distract Tier 1 developers with irrelevant minutia, a move >> to Tier 3 is clearly warranted.  Maybe I just don't understand how much >> effort is being wasted on the level of support armv7 is currently >> getting. >> >> TL:DR: I want to keep armv7 because you can still do some cool things >> with it, but I don't insist anyone else do work beyond not breaking >> universe to keep it running (and if not breaking universe is a problem, >> I don't even insist on that). > > It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms > viable.  One big example is that we probably need to start supporting the > use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant > future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone would > need to do the work to make that happen).  This is already starting to be > a problem in ports because some 3rd party software (like py-cryptography) > is requiring rust for modern versions, but we are currently holding that > port back to cater to armv7.  Platforms have to have enough active > developers supporting them to remain viable. Yeah, Rust-in-base would certainly be an excellent reason to drop platforms without Rust support to Tier 3 at best. I guess my confusion is simply that I thought that it being Tier 2 was already a public statement that "we may remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, but we do not plan on building packages or release images." 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c317ab7cc5ec64620350d6877892c82e; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 21:37:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 14:36:48 -0700 To: John Baldwin , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) References: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.68.31:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.68.31:from]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4RH2HT3kxlz3VQK John Baldwin wrote on Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC : > On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: > > On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > >> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 > >> John Baldwin wrote: > >> > >>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > >>>> . . . >=20 > It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms > viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting = the > use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant > future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone = would > need to do the work to make that happen). I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD" claim: # pkg info rust rust-1.70.0_1 Name : rust Version : 1.70.0_1 Installed on : Sun Jul 16 21:37:58 2023 PDT Origin : lang/rust Architecture : FreeBSD:14:armv7 Prefix : /usr/local Categories : lang Licenses : MIT or APACHE20 Maintainer : rust@FreeBSD.org WWW : https://www.rust-lang.org/ Comment : Language with a focus on memory safety and concurrency Options : DOCS : on GDB : off SOURCES : on WASM : on Shared Libs required: libcurl.so.4 Annotations : FreeBSD_version: 1400093 build_timestamp: 2023-07-16T00:27:00+0000 built_by : poudriere-git-3.3.99.20220831 cpe : = cpe:2.3:a:rust-lang:rust:1.70.0:::::freebsd14:armv7:1 port_checkout_unclean: no port_git_hash : 8bcbc1e32c6c ports_top_checkout_unclean: yes ports_top_git_hash: f1271d14fb6f repo_type : binary repository : custom Flat size : 1.08GiB Description : Rust is an open-source systems programming language that runs blazingly fast, prevents almost all crashes, and eliminates data races. Some of its features: - Algebraic data types, type inference - Pattern matching and closures - Concurrency without data races - Guaranteed memory safety - Optional garbage collection - Zero-cost abstractions - Minimal runtime - Efficient C bindings WWW: https://www.rust-lang.org/ That is my own poudriere=3Ddevel style build but the 2023-Jul-27: = http://ampere2.nyi.freebsd.org/data/main-armv7-default/pe5b71726cc79_s92fd= 2f39e5/logs/rust-1.71.0.log is a log for a successful official build of a more recent version than my last build. Is it really some things that use/need rust that are the problem, not the rust port itself? If yes, could you be more specific? > This is already starting to be > a problem in ports because some 3rd party software (like = py-cryptography) > is requiring rust for modern versions, but we are currently holding = that > port back to cater to armv7. Platforms have to have enough active > developers supporting them to remain viable. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Fri Aug 4 04:34:17 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RHCXq4tk8z4TsdB for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RHCXq4DMMz3L6T; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691123659; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gA41ju7ppv/w1aZBCaM4CwBL2iM13aOZYyALlQce4c8=; b=iT46IX1YK1DBxJMNnkUbDtqKzDQMrCkzI1CMX6IAXBqpJ3XdmIj0kQgMbRdhfHD/k51XgF CFUX3goP0d7446ZWk4cjBxLvm+0/EWoKpYZQKmpIj4J2mFplY23S3MsJrsCkL800p7Ljep HcAOs/HoXB6MVz2bjZXuNTrO57ug5NRDQC8xKKDmjdsA1h3VQkoQp+2pxJEgHcOIcxYCOE YkIf+gJD5Pwoho3kIZaScc48ZfDOJAHoYLTGpq2MgHLmpqNRF9eoKYS/vkvUdw39ilBt5O OFVtFkf/D8Cq9ME9NbQjWgBgS6R93VNDkR9IMWaMqmCVSkdnkxqj8nCb2l27Hg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691123659; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gA41ju7ppv/w1aZBCaM4CwBL2iM13aOZYyALlQce4c8=; b=BBeG5D/zlszC1i+hjTbbXEcGwEacS6mlpj+Z0eDnmFnCHPVUflqap5i5PsZJ6X09soB+QT GhFpnkpW1eVJbnaKF39bIEbJnXTNtz1ONnCkYgSm2tq08TdX79veJsOhVYBzFN8hhlotmf j3ZdB8nGQ1RRkD/8mYXZX0FHyj2dudzbbSWM2fjVcnw+NytyIi4Ml0UxirJtLKBBpTWwkv suwqhQjywWFSb4j9MgicDbenKUx5LyYX5qcBdcavi4uTzS14fqmH58T4n4q1uyDkSdB7Sr 6unXQJI0Yd2A+VnfTL5ChiRgJwl37nzXxdSrtDHh0ShsYILMMQSj4yAaZUkWnA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1691123659; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=TFykrGOJCesxyaM8/VqYw+b/aoP3PCSaqPeanx/NlJ18PmlDfKi2Pf5Cgbfmpr2UUvAJEJ 4nPgQVlp8kBho6prlHYahNSNYScamSlrHyia37oVHdN+fPOh8O2/5+QWUfvIba5kFM2Nus eVUfJMXl8Vn5NXHkLGF2c8Z9x5+7ApqGkFzTFIgaGtl1g7b+5pMKmSB3QDTI4CGbCciBea 5Mrz+cg1p37QL40aUP3ubp8mR8e1e9dgdJWzlkZciuGYqzuFJPgnkDAtauhZ3WeA0w97Up 8PqGsnhd+y+8slltrsSCdqU3Rym61b2gJXdZijIpnuAR3kA2f2LuWaP78JPYyA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2601:648:8680:16b0:cdd2:66b:dfd1:f731] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8680:16b0:cdd2:66b:dfd1:f731]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4RHCXq1PMxzrtt; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 21:34:17 -0700 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Millard , freebsd-arch References: From: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/3/23 2:36 PM, Mark Millard wrote: > John Baldwin wrote on > Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC : > >> On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: >>> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: >>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 >>>> John Baldwin wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >>>>>> . . . >> >> It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms >> viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting the >> use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant >> future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone would >> need to do the work to make that happen). > > I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD" > claim: Please see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=254853 as an example. According to that bug at least rustc is not doable under qemu-user which is how armv7 packages are built. -- John Baldwin From nobody Fri Aug 4 04:42:54 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RHCkq6bZTz4TtK7 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:42:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RHCkq5n5tz3N77 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:42:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691124179; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=dt6Edqi6JNq34WIcFnWca/SvWL68YVjH+oNdvfBVcZs=; b=uQiZse0Z9ouEnSeT3LwGTyX5JXpiGsDYyw8M//HAiZQ9CidXmp+RsiKo+/IyWj7kWjyKaP 00bnYHo4sd/X/sC6gDdidmavsAHDAlyQ39jw4eiAjuK0Di+kE1OPX4JeHc68p2vg/MLXxL +SJNygfJHPkUffwVgfEPBFVigUc0g7S9e09N48iONQ4CXkksRean393qEr6g5itv7nUrus d3F4lXMPNuaolsq/HItbf+hRtfm9ChV1LSYbVhrEuHM2nQr2ywz5EPCBBkPgztth0qD5bq 2c4Bcyew7xDBfQkzEKXe/ETx+CnJT7M9w8llanI70S+R6JxZO0I4daL4txMdpQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1691124179; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=dt6Edqi6JNq34WIcFnWca/SvWL68YVjH+oNdvfBVcZs=; b=vBQYYT3P1MpBx6AVYHQerzSn9N6DR+a1HSETl/tjnj644Vq4+NhAOEPBtITMEQrZUzyemf CvJeMqAWnQs+1VfaJIe07O3XFiTVrHLx8MAG/yP1gWPYY5ZDtxpu8Ime7BHM9gVspxeEVa Qtn/GC8PdaQoinfeeSqQRuBGDCwy+lAtFFFn+y36F4lo19VTPcHaONK28YthqWvEpI4GqA 39MoOrIgQjHLck9p+kSUBEGLmRDMucgtfVJ/vzo2Av3rBxFfydAbM//DkHb9iJGHis/JeO GtHlFG/apVux8GCkKZSt6dmhikyqAcggFUUv9kQw263iWrRuHtEPyhYj40mwoQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1691124179; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=qv+3aIqw9FjEq28VVuwm011LWY9KRFQDomFWw9JgqT5OW+WIVdFY+Nk8xlGEtFBtlWne+3 NfMnv130yaNcud5fFl+f6Y1meoAcn9WrHKMnxeIoKuxlmYJ16/8KwP3PVd/5d70TIW4DKQ rdFeBwn3zRiziYwdOWr9TTt3vnQFCMtpQjcAdO/gGRvHmVuCTd2oq4bqh0Na5AHLUtuWmq RiCIREf6McWSsj4JhhcyIS9tvAbHqObdwPYqmhPPzXshgkiJvDQha3BxSN8WiEakwSG2CC KFpeP7sixB+faMtABLCFlgD+KWVyx0elXYm256bTUahKzbeJgERN2Vd7xOCvUg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [10.9.4.95] (unknown [209.182.120.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: kevans/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4RHCkp4v1wzpt1 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:42:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <72ca79fc-8b03-5305-01b5-71c1519ac6f6@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:42:54 -0500 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.12.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> From: Kyle Evans In-Reply-To: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/3/23 23:34, John Baldwin wrote: > On 8/3/23 2:36 PM, Mark Millard wrote: >> John Baldwin wrote on >> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC : >> >>> On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: >>>> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 >>>>> John Baldwin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >>>>>>> . . . >>> >>> It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms >>> viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting the >>> use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant >>> future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone would >>> need to do the work to make that happen). >> >> I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD" >> claim: > > Please see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=254853 > as an example.  According to that bug at least rustc is not doable > under qemu-user which is how armv7 packages are built. > To be clear, that really only matters for user builds. bsd-user has been replaced in all official builders, as far as I'm aware, and official armv7 packages are done with COMPAT32 on an arm64 boxen. Thanks, Kyle Evans From nobody Fri Aug 4 04:43:43 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RHCls6tykz4Ttg9 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:43:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RHCls4rGRz3NRg for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 04:43:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5230f8da574so1594047a12.3 for ; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 21:43:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1691124232; x=1691729032; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o/vcPl54sb96/5/Q9QJIuWFEruswPJotxviL83OC1vE=; b=a4QfQsrLl6TGps5FC91hZr4mkcGcl0dhBeBViQgP7BkQqVYJ7cBO8RFo7t9V3jXCtp kAY/zaJ2nTSIV0EZR3oeRTcPXSu8XJkNR4XKEVVuBHX8+wztgbReoSo95dp7JNz0ymAm vXbVxY0ck8PVrYZ8w9HbqPMP7TX/SZKuKlGby5sDpmSBrdvLhj+ZvPFJrtgSE9zSA65u tjADu3SbZbg6N4CTJ5DscyO6YaH2K1dWQW7s/XG2zwDn2BliVUB1DIOzdaQO95+tljEc BdED2tE1PnV8rMhix+1AWWkV2EVa0KtQXPnLE4vOa+QTeCwy/mlqpJuy2HrxJ+03ibG3 Wdjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1691124232; x=1691729032; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=o/vcPl54sb96/5/Q9QJIuWFEruswPJotxviL83OC1vE=; b=cC3vMgIk1TXSzj/cg4Zp6kAr7ighLPzECbLhGT8R/v0mHkjCVbcTlHtY9OlcnkN78N cm71YMIpWfakAQ/u2agZ8vM+gJiwPqyVn+D0OwvrOooW9Fg5nON2Zzx+xb4/xOvEoIcz AE7PWjRabbU1acTd6zzOiOSWCpVWKk8XkXXY+Jt9mmZcsRw3bUZ2FWPit09AIyCRtePO y2Aj0fjKnG5PScYHR0P8ydU/GOT032Xpon0PcQC7hlPpADxHtDQ35XyTkUDuyvGzqYli jp/xR4/Vl1WELZiweQBFe7C/fb1csTVXi9G24dHMxxQeD3vMIcTzN5ffwU/j5fhwfT81 WhzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyHD2cbRsJ5sDCf120ATlRmJydUtIAOaNSVqgm0In1XuhWd3FkF GPqyLCh3rEH4PLiw/HBqdhkHX8UazYXYG7wXuB2ZaA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHNKcXxclrIRlCYJPFEZC+VIKXR39yi8FUJhi7kalBGbDopY11qsOFNSVLbfttbxUVTjGWdKTUHf79WUbWFqBE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1111:b0:522:ca7c:df7d with SMTP id u17-20020a056402111100b00522ca7cdf7dmr662675edv.0.1691124231582; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 21:43:51 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 22:43:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) To: John Baldwin Cc: Mark Millard , freebsd-arch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000018449e0602118b89" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4RHCls4rGRz3NRg X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --00000000000018449e0602118b89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 10:34=E2=80=AFPM John Baldwin wrot= e: > On 8/3/23 2:36 PM, Mark Millard wrote: > > John Baldwin wrote on > > Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC : > > > >> On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: > >>> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > >>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 > >>>> John Baldwin wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > >>>>>> . . . > >> > >> It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms > >> viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting t= he > >> use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant > >> future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone woul= d > >> need to do the work to make that happen). > > > > I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD" > > claim: > > Please see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D254853 > as an example. According to that bug at least rustc is not doable > under qemu-user which is how armv7 packages are built. > I'l need to test this again. A number of interesting bugs have been fixed in upstream. Also, I thought we'd shifted building armv7 packages on an aarch64 server that can runs 32-bit jails... Warner --00000000000018449e0602118b89 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 10:34=E2=80=AF= PM John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org&= gt; wrote:
On 8/= 3/23 2:36 PM, Mark Millard wrote:
> John Baldwin <jhb_at_FreeBSD.org> wrote on
> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC :
>
>> On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700
>>>> John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote:
>>>>>> . . .
>>
>> It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping p= latforms
>> viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporti= ng the
>> use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant=
>> future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and some= one would
>> need to do the work to make that happen).
>
> I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeB= SD"
> claim:

Please see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzil= la/show_bug.cgi?id=3D254853
as an example.=C2=A0 According to that bug at least rustc is not doable
under qemu-user which is how armv7 packages are built.

I'l need to test this again. A number of interesting bu= gs have been fixed
in upstream.

Also, I = thought we'd shifted building armv7 packages on an aarch64
se= rver that can runs 32-bit jails...

Warner
=
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0538df061611712e74d7c3ca42aee411; Fri, 04 Aug 2023 05:11:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Message-Id: <0C7941E3-8629-4BF5-9C5D-DFE3A52CFF5A@yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1DD3BD18-30F5-4E35-BB37-85B5FF8C8BFD" List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 22:11:21 -0700 In-Reply-To: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> Cc: freebsd-arch To: John Baldwin References: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4RHDMr66BRz3Q6K X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] --Apple-Mail=_1DD3BD18-30F5-4E35-BB37-85B5FF8C8BFD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Aug 3, 2023, at 21:34, John Baldwin wrote: > On 8/3/23 2:36 PM, Mark Millard wrote: >> John Baldwin wrote on >> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC : >>> On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: >>>> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 >>>>> John Baldwin wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >>>>>>> . . . >>>=20 >>> It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping = platforms >>> viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting = the >>> use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant >>> future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone = would >>> need to do the work to make that happen). >> I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD" >> claim: >=20 > Please see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D254853 > as an example. According to that bug at least rustc is not doable > under qemu-user which is how armv7 packages are built. Are folks confusing armv6 vs. armv7? armv6 ports are still built into packages via qemu. But official armv7 port builds are done on aarch64 in poudriere(-devel?) armv7 jails, without use of qemu. The ampere[123] build servers support aarch32/armv7 native execution and that is put to use in the last year. https://pkg-status.freebsd.org/?all=3D1&type=3Dpackage reports the first = ampere armv7 build as: default default 130releng-armv7 a51002eeb3d0 32299 29273 294 1791 941 0 = stopped:done: Fri, 22 Jul 2022 07:39:45 GMT 66:37:20 ampere3 The first build of armv7 main: default default main-armv7 p83aeeda2ebb7_s30253da1a 32288 29099 = (+27041) 274 (+147) 1948 (+26) 967 (+247) 0 stopped:done: Fri, 29 Jul = 2022 21:46:08 GMT 88:40:40 ampere2 The first build of armv7 quarterly: default quarterly 130releng-armv7 8662e656d870 32236 29152 (+27142) 238 = (+140) 1871 (+9) 975 (+237) 0 stopped:done: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 13:04:55 = GMT 70:00:06 ampere1 (I've been building armv7 ports that way for longer, but on different hardware.) =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com --Apple-Mail=_1DD3BD18-30F5-4E35-BB37-85B5FF8C8BFD Content-Disposition: inline; filename=poudriere.png Content-Type: image/png; 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filename=poudriere.png Content-Type: image/png; x-unix-mode=0666; name="poudriere.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 AAABAAEAEBAAAAEAIABoBAAAFgAAACgAAAAQAAAAIAAAAAEAIAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAsLCw2mpqa/6Ghof+pqan/s7Oz/wAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQEBOQAAAACVlZX+jo6O/21tbf+Xl5f/n5+f/6ioqP+0 tLT/AAAAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAsLAxgAAAAAl5eX/42Njf9eXl7/kJCQ/5iY mP+ioqL/q6ur/7q6uv8pKSkEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACckD1YbGQ4pAAAAAJ+fn/+Wlpb/ZWVl /5iYmP+qqqr/urq6/76+vv/AwMD/nJycEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAlJRFEMjIUOxgYGCCoqKj/ b29v/7a2tv+2trb/lpaW/4ODg//e3t7/19fX/9jY2BwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASkUelkA8GXIA AAAAjo6O/21tbf+mpqb/oqKi/4iIiP9oaGj/0tLS/+Li4v////8YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC8r EjIlJAw2AAAAAKmpqf+BgYH/x8fH/+Hh4f/w8PD/9vb2/+3t7f+8vLzS////BwAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAMS4URwAAAABAQEAlm5ub29HR0f9eXl7/8fHx//Hx8f+7u7vg////EwAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwpDT8AAAAAAAAAALKysgPr6+sW0tLSZM/Pz/////8j////BwAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAkJCRCQkJDpAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA0AAAAABZ/o TQsLCwkAlP9JAM3/EgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAABMv0wtP5DmAErxoQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAADK/yIAPqWkABz63AA647QAVo8HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEAAAAAAAAAHQBY55AAAAAZAMb/KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAw/8xAAAAAAAAADoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA/h8AAPgPAAD4BwAA+AcAAPgHAADYBwAA+AcAAPwPAAD/vwAA/78AAP//AAD/zwAA/48AAP/f AAD//wAA//8AAA== --Apple-Mail=_1DD3BD18-30F5-4E35-BB37-85B5FF8C8BFD-- From nobody Fri Aug 4 09:11:02 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RHKh80pxqz4gtXp for ; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:11:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "fuz.su", Issuer "fuz.su" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RHKh75Gntz4JDT; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 3749B258094860 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Aug 2023 11:11:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 3749B27a094858; Fri, 4 Aug 2023 11:11:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 11:11:02 +0200 From: Robert Clausecker To: John Baldwin Cc: Mark Millard , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Message-ID: References: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <07405397-366b-9171-0144-9b22caa7868d@FreeBSD.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4RHKh75Gntz4JDT X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:2001:41d0::/32, country:FR] Hi John, Am Thu, Aug 03, 2023 at 09:34:17PM -0700 schrieb John Baldwin: > On 8/3/23 2:36 PM, Mark Millard wrote: > > John Baldwin wrote on > > Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 19:57:08 UTC : > > > >> On 7/27/23 10:49 AM, shurd@FreeBSD.org wrote: > >>> On 2023-05-24 01:35, Emmanuel Vadot wrote: > >>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 16:46:51 -0700 > >>>> John Baldwin wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > >>>>>> . . . > >> > >> It's not just about make tinderbox, it is also about keeping platforms > >> viable. One big example is that we probably need to start supporting the > >> use of rust in the base system in some form in the not too distant > >> future, but rust isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD (and someone would > >> need to do the work to make that happen). > > > > I'm confused about the "isn't supported on armv7 on FreeBSD" > > claim: > > Please see https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=254853 > as an example. According to that bug at least rustc is not doable > under qemu-user which is how armv7 packages are built. It builds natively just fine. This is a problem with qemu-user, not rust. Yours, Robert Clausecker > -- > John Baldwin > > -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments