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And this is industry trend. The only ppc manufacturer for POSIX > platforms, IBM, has been moving away from ppc64be. Major Linux > distros, including developed by IBM subsidiary RedHat, only offer > ppc64le binaries (RedHat and clones, CentOS, Fedora, SUSE, etc). Many > drivers assume that the host is running on little-endian, so those > drivers fail to work on big-endian systems. ppc64be is poorly > maintained and tested across many OSes and I don't see why we should > continue supporting it when there is no benefit. The IBM POWER systems support switching between big-endian and little-endian. IBM AIX runs on be, RHEL or SUSE run on le. Is there any reason not to run FreeBSD in le too? --=20 kind regards Marco Send spam to abfall1770680705@stinkedores.dorfdsl.de --Sig_/.Co+=vf5tUyGb=7myPiTrvO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJPBAEBCAA5FiEEpXefSZn9R6zNZtTQE76RLz2tRfAFAmmKs04bFIAAAAAABAAO bWFudTIsMi41KzEuMTEsMiwyAAoJEBO+kS89rUXwuUUP/AzkoWKUntmmRrNHysw9 ICvl3x4Z2RA8nWfH0WbOgz0RYD2l5s6wjl7Re/5MysOLaOVPdGJ3bdXerAkJbZjU SuFLODCRFjz/2Rj180SHjhvFKXN9vaYMgeYk5UKsIuWye3iQxIY7AjxjQRIfM7Fy sVSm6t0iURwV7IaVC/HzNTYa/ohBWE5uDH6maRgaMcrxB4mnM88btj6ZEgiO5KQI uPrF6X0fihABkaThYAdB3u3eX2uyE0HGMJnX5e24nbIFPjCl+vzU0+BEAvRSuOcy dQIiK1gM3y/JAoIDpeisoy33QywYCHQDv/Q0f8VkHKDiEK+YJFqEgjUeVtdoWzm4 FdptYBXaF9Z6MbQ0TEZGU3M870mZfGkwOerenVTGuS9quTiQ0YkdFM/GzWBHngg/ T4UErPjDWdyWj1g0bguQ3Gut23peUC3n+o+c0NKpl7kIeyLJueITwiHp8veA3K8h ZpHpJw1qGRDlasYm5Tnzbpz98LGJyytCaf6KfqE8gm00cLI9vpfIHFbloentnrKz uZuMaR6Bot2vOD5l23Mud5YbYPPQmDWhxuSr2c03NjBpN2V+tH6IfwO3y9TiUw8I A+zo9B/kukb0DP4NU/atGYTioEZNzAhab5vlnQvceovzt2Pj0tf0Dl/SaIYH4deS peNFXJqyncv4n3NgzjzG3X80 =29Fb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/.Co+=vf5tUyGb=7myPiTrvO-- From nobody Tue Feb 10 05:01:46 2026 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4f98Yg43PXz6RRd5 for ; 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Mon, 09 Feb 2026 21:01:58 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adrian Chadd Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2026 21:01:46 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AZwV_QiJSdj_4_qC-Op3VMl-H6J5pEL9VTMN67vJta40W446VlFk-oITNHYzNcA Message-ID: Subject: Re: What's the plan for powerpc64 in FreeBSD 16 To: Minsoo Choo Cc: Warner Losh , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4f98Yg26myz3fg6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On Mon, 9 Feb 2026 at 16:45, Minsoo Choo wrote: > > I've been working on LLDB for several weeks now. One thing I learned: we = should never expect improvement in ppc64be support for LLVM (at least in LL= DB). ppc64be POSIX userland debugging on LLDB is incomplete=E2=80=94it's mi= ssing files that even riscv and loongarch implement and VSX registers are c= ompletely absent in some cases while ppc64le debugging is still actively de= veloped and maintained. Debugging is one of the most crucial component in s= oftware development while LLVM is FreeBSD's default toolchain. In this cont= ext, I don't see any reason to keep support ppc64be. I was going to impleme= nt LLDB userland and kernel debugging support for all supported architectur= es from FreeBSD 14, but after I examined the current status of ppc64be in L= LDB, I decided to abandon it. > > And this is industry trend. The only ppc manufacturer for POSIX platforms= , IBM, has been moving away from ppc64be. Major Linux distros, including de= veloped by IBM subsidiary RedHat, only offer ppc64le binaries (RedHat and c= lones, CentOS, Fedora, SUSE, etc). Many drivers assume that the host is run= ning on little-endian, so those drivers fail to work on big-endian systems.= ppc64be is poorly maintained and tested across many OSes and I don't see w= hy we should continue supporting it when there is no benefit. As we've said before, it's a useful big endian test platform, it's cheaply available (qemu boots ppc64 guests just fine) and drivers / infrastructure that isn't big endian clean should just be cleaned up. If there's no support for ppc64be in lldb then we can just mark that as broken and just use gdb for now. I'd also just like to point out that a platform dying a death of a thousand cuts because people don't want to deal with big endian is, well, how a platform like big endian ends up dying. The fact that people are just used to writing little endian intel stuff is why people keep migrating other platforms to it. If you wonder why I bring this up, please also understand that "why bother with FreeBSD" is also an attitude t= hat various other large projects (see: chrome) have towards us. I see the lack of big endian support in a toolchain and debugging tools their problem, not our loss. :-) -adrian From nobody Tue Feb 10 05:50:37 2026 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4f99dw5JKhz6RVqw for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 05:50:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic314-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic314-21.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.69.84]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4f99dw0PFSz3kVd for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 05:50:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1770702640; bh=Gof37ZlQ6z5RxyKO6tjs/PNu0HQUaZz6QDaKSxYW5OM=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=jR3rJftNqNE7aTeqcVeusXviXC1hTaSJaqTyKxwb/jA2RzsxKva4gO2RJ+iumzC1fk4ZEUJ3X8AJCwm5x0qjgxOt1bJTcoIauj1pDsMUlNY/4BhBOmwi2PrahGo0bOWM19oBeZXk6meNHT2kPbLMkYp9VdAN0BP4gRe9KiDhKQddNczyYJELfZ8nwYoXYNSfl9AVOe8VuPCVYqK5C5/LU3bwEnQqulHZbO/oRs/B2C/9c/A3JTmAJg2JvwRg3J1Un35LuEyLELKqJvm53K6Bkdxtu8YmZabu+NsQx7UTPrAUXdACDlkbno+AB1ihty1A9e5w1+bfmcIXczdtwtEJFw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1770702640; bh=KcK/Zl1PrtSZeGfH0AQtNxB6wh9jTyzp4eWk3l1XotS=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:Subject:To:From:From:Subject; b=BzxposIJZj6ekjn+UkMShA9wCvDn/SdIIQrDArfUZ0EnrePN9HwzhgE5yFPsiknVvgDL51UfCmGX5BkDhlXs1CFRzfJtZrMikBDF/aCOeSp52AmYgVtShp1J3fUGwYvP2xDBAga9VeA5YqyfCLmFo4dLHBJS6EFhJlK/PfVw3zwGfjDN3GjP5dqkURN4ManUGvGfSCcFKwR0rcXzr/+XTKLs0LGSfrPdn99MgBaap0gVl7qs2wNQximO+YB3fmMtQeXH1BXSnhzhXLiDqzHm14hhs+xHMqcf6MUPL0sQ9VJbbEI2KFEToP1jTxUWG71w83uE7Ccq5F5GbzYZguSh3w== X-YMail-OSG: QeBFAH4VM1k_FeTD3BbbZPKwDmFKC1CSx9BE3i4UzI6UWj_9Zd0q6e1kPEjetng Ysp1gfQVLt84Pn5v4MUgnvAUmARF_dKikgf9_m6uSviFAqNcZ2K.yjHQPCCwOBFV3tQa0PACmZOU kgvqKE4wTu5wchztz.dTcCet2G_0J3xKXAKFpXPxWjwhL9U7TEYbqok6P3NeVYpHQ9tErMch0n2m G_KF3jA.R9MIxvKL3pCMJQPhra9umgQOly9t9SwRSL5GyMMersWUGlKrF0PoYhUsBXavU3zvCHZH AENEJnfc23d1pVkby9vzSbLL4NgoVLK_ITVYVvZAEWopDT9Yeqybhm880v.AuGlAFhVMSpUjB6v9 6_KhvFpygFtB1xRvq4xG14WdVVgoBZOANZIokOtcikfg5GzPuquOpfJtVAqZhuOe4_JNmPfu94hi pHtVxcKBZFgFWG1vpSStgVe.SyJ9Ch5PCzEcuMLm5VlgFX4yN.Tkb1H4Rybbot97YlAdc3PiII0X tiuZLNta.k9t3H5kswg6Map.z2OuCHhJRTyn6QU5t53bWLHC1rv9oerqtP4haDygOApxUlmBJr2K qbhOZoFayTb_GGG9e2F0xMSgFpvfk02kcnqITu9T3L8ON1l9EiU2xcYOnHSxA4YVYpo.eAAutwRY mNferDWmTjy.IJRCKKruawTLooGcCEZLcD1YofbbZbOzmcN.543sIY7ds6g2oVDCU5FNgl..vOQ9 RkOeCFeX1dGgy5Xm7NKbXAns8_Sqt98DwHwuBlch7nz59GLPFlY_0LCbVIZGdJ8ARojIws9DD5eh cxWbnAPEW4dJhgMXXbhmIyEohWbWWtmz7Qa_2STGatE0c838tPYlGwp2YZm8si_n8MSTnXZCjaWb dn7MnBGXK5PXRjwXi0AXkN4iKjK_RtZqaa.ahySK.JbR.Gh2wPrXtmhxJ0i6Vn1K076rf_5_8l9b IBzsbNMN0grsAdDr9qSy0NICmECbM0eWjljdVtlxu9PC2PBm5NSV7Qm00HoKUWjyN.aMz8GsxGjD suqIAwwtufeBSLIr9rAjsNVYcRZ2YUmifkVQkINygro7PM1gbO1dEzwEDE4P2hdMyYyHBb3DlxSt 6me67Hnlot1Ngb13MakYNn..06J6JuCxjrWM0NbUcNRu7TxZksLYk8d7vQJ5uW2QuOg7kzj9THzD Qc9cc1jFsSfKW9rGuKsthZWyIjF8xjfyComQZ52y3fGVVm2bmHN3q1xuCZnbY_Y.3xk_mskOPRuU SGnyciCQitVBHXb5lkVNTEsgTrIl5.L4Y8EeR6goa8L2xp9W1BG2_0sOal6IP8_fOy2Kbu.HkVnF cPpvgQmIbzczNB1lv8HEZKD1BJUa_J7X7tNFec3c9VPjwFoiIIQHaMkt8KrqoVrUueHbwpI8wivg e_xCgcs6F_vrX4gpMpjCFuRIauaOWQ14j9hDLbGYC_s2G0rMcKvKu9QoNGEaDG9KE8bzwGK6qAZj G2OBqBLCnemxLwv3KOrfDzd.GnWB_EeMtui2h_Ixr54LQ.fOUD7lAMPUAik8EyXWkWe4GOg5Fh.u EjPd_tQASVn.OGMNix9xnIC.MciMqcT4ca2I4jzKZbH3HCAsudJsc_CWoZUNV6oh9hXEr2gHTfZ9 lPOZvtEZlSNWG1IicIpMr9FAPV5QNfHCk3kacrEmamu5lvYLR2lj_LRSONexb3.Arxt7hZC9yYGA fxPKTWfS5.zmYttleZ1i2FJu0RMA9Q0JG_mrlql8ykBupUy4.I9LQnvuh.TKCBInERBmIPT7vgRO ElCqkPvI8myBDwqmYm7XjpEp6QQe.dX3AYfnae3fYaYTdC5yFVQU9qzVEGorSyTA4gWfdeZapmK. wYNiVrh1VwdKTjgBeu.zGNdkNOL34Ny3UxGlWw2msVFwv.sBwQ1wcbr0DCdAonNDlXvZGb2dgIVf vcBXN_N2vj4fRNPONjIEiFNYLsc0BVPI9xCQIsGRYT2JUdjMczcdKm2VgKL3hZYVgKKpH9xiJnqL 4fzBIYMg.RCJD5CuqDLltkKfXS8CVbDc7nk_aWKgwQ6gQsXX_IfSDDp1n0BGdRBV28QUNG3a1SKE uidVdTdx0fPLeK_U59YfW2FsxCznvNOgKhrVh3bSdDyQdJ3tuk6I9ebno7goXU6X0vrXRXxeJNzo fXjHprOnmZ2OfR91NwEOjb2G7oxpKoYb6PdIUi652ay2hoCp8G9_e9sgNUv5UHC6DYfDdOD1oCCg HWSshjLXb4670yttVbC4CJ7t1GpAJ.ffOR4upbJN6ICkwIL6C.2OzYIUhdymFy9vu96YcyKKIKLe bjt_MhqpRabVScTlMs2xLnazT7MuFnQ-- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 6884fb74-82b7-4e2d-a184-e43ba6d2a486 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 05:50:40 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-gq1-86969b76cd-rpb4f (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 03677e7ab88f00a133d481bd90bc35ea; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 05:50:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4a805bc7-d636-4434-923d-6cd3b1ce957d@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2026 21:50:37 -0800 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: What's the plan for powerpc64 in FreeBSD 16 To: Minsoo Choo , Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: Content-Language: en-US From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.25178 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4f99dw0PFSz3kVd X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On 2/9/26 16:45, Minsoo Choo wrote: > On Monday, November 17th, 2025 at 11:58 AM, Warner Losh > wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> As we're getting close to the release date for FreeBSD 15.0, it's time >> to take stock of another architectures. This time, I'd like your >> feedback on the following plans. >> >> We'd like to retire powerpc64 and powerpc64le just before the FreeBSD >> stable/16 branch. >> >> This would give powerpc64 another two years of support in main, >> followed by sustaining support on stable/14 and stable/15 until the >> end of those branches. >> >> We've come to this point because the port is dwindling and we have a >> cost associated with keeping it around. The number of developers has >> fallen off so only a couple remain. Issues in powerpc are taking >> longer and longer to discover and resolve. The hardware has been a >> huge source of frustration for clusteradmin and we've no alternative >> for developers. There's only a tiny user base. We have trouble >> building packages for it. Also, powerpc has a number of interesting >> features of the architecture that make it the odd arch out. >> >> It's also big endian. While that may seem like a reason to keep it >> around, if we really can't support it and we're not actively testing >> functionality of the system, then keeping this around actually doesn't >> help keep us honest. It just gives us a burden we must bear. >> >> In my opinion, powerpc64 appears to have already fallen below critical >> mass, despite being a sentimental favorite for a number of FreeBSD >> developers. As such, I'd like us to consider planning to retire it >> before we branch 16. >> >> My questions today: Are you using this port? How many people are using >> it? And what's the installed base? It appears to be somewhat less than >> that of either i386 or armv7 based on user surveys and popularity at >> conferences. Also, any other comments you might have. >> >> Warner > > I've been working on LLDB for several weeks now. One thing I learned: we > should never expect improvement in ppc64be support for LLVM (at least in > LLDB). ppc64be POSIX userland debugging on LLDB is incomplete—it's > missing files that even riscv and loongarch implement and VSX registers > are completely absent in some cases while ppc64le debugging is still > actively developed and maintained. Debugging is one of the most crucial > component in software development while LLVM is FreeBSD's default > toolchain. In this context, I don't see any reason to keep support > ppc64be. I was going to implement LLDB userland and kernel debugging > support for all supported architectures from FreeBSD 14, but after I > examined the current status of ppc64be in LLDB, I decided to abandon it. > > And this is industry trend. The only ppc manufacturer for POSIX > platforms, IBM, has been moving away from ppc64be. Major Linux distros, > including developed by IBM subsidiary RedHat, only offer ppc64le > binaries (RedHat and clones, CentOS, Fedora, SUSE, etc). Many drivers > assume that the host is running on little-endian, so those drivers fail > to work on big-endian systems. ppc64be is poorly maintained and tested > across many OSes and I don't see why we should continue supporting it > when there is no benefit. > > -- > Minsoo A question may be how much of the powerpc64 hardware in folks hands that would otherwise develop/support one or both of the powerpc64{le,be} FreeBSD OS platforms is still just old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware? How many of those hands would not also have access to a powerpc64le as well? As I understand it, that old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware can not switch to the little endian mode intended: that mode came later. Old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware being uncommon compared to powerpc64le capable hardware could help point to targeting just powerpc64le. But if old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware is fairly common compared to powerpc64le capable hardware instead? -- === Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Tue Feb 10 06:18:08 2026 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4f9BFn1mzSz6RXfV for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 06:18:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-f175.google.com (mail-qk1-f175.google.com [209.85.222.175]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4f9BFm6sgfz3mJG for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 06:18:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-qk1-f175.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-8c6a50c17fdso382291285a.2 for ; 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Mon, 09 Feb 2026 22:18:19 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4a805bc7-d636-4434-923d-6cd3b1ce957d@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4a805bc7-d636-4434-923d-6cd3b1ce957d@yahoo.com> From: Adrian Chadd Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2026 22:18:08 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AZwV_QhfRR58U5GSMJoDwkCa5Oi1aq-Ep8o8kERmHmg6IoSaxuFb5_Ag6beLGbA Message-ID: Subject: Re: What's the plan for powerpc64 in FreeBSD 16 To: Mark Millard Cc: Minsoo Choo , Warner Losh , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4f9BFm6sgfz3mJG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On Mon, 9 Feb 2026 at 21:50, Mark Millard wrote: > > A question may be how much of the powerpc64 hardware in folks hands that > would otherwise develop/support one or both of the powerpc64{le,be} > FreeBSD OS platforms is still just old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware? How > many of those hands would not also have access to a powerpc64le as well? > As I understand it, that old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware can not switch > to the little endian mode intended: that mode came later. > > Old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware being uncommon compared to powerpc64le > capable hardware could help point to targeting just powerpc64le. But if > old Apple PowerMac G5 hardware is fairly common compared to powerpc64le > capable hardware instead? I spent a bunch of time earlier this year figuring out QEMU setups for big/little endian pseries guests for POWER8 and POWER9. POWER7 requires some love; it hangs during boot. In any case, "everyone" has access to the same fully emulated or hardware accelerated pseries guest support for both big and little endian systems. (And yes, I just got SMP working again on G5.) As for hardware - POWER8 is relatively cheapish but it's not easy to host (they're loud and power hungry), and it runs fine in both big and little endian varieties. POWER9 is not as cheap. Don't get me started on POWER10. :-) powermac G5 hardware is still plentiful and relatively cheap. -adrian From nobody Tue Feb 10 14:28:47 2026 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4f9P7j1yZXz6RPQv for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 14:28:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhibbits@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R12" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4f9P7h74SBz3srC; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 14:28:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhibbits@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1770733729; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=1fFKjqO5dAJU5JGAU8npMwxrIPiVtOFKQAahn1fsbkE=; b=JnElovW582/kftcmNASiD5KhMt36NHLs/FUScgC9nkSaG1eyv6tQSV6MUcuA0ix39Q+lG4 I+jhLFpJh/3sbWA+Sq5zk8Tg06Qv4FYng+6WjtTLuO1J1E4+OOxI8Az9L75azakjDIdGDx XuIli8HB4PAnb3vxDP++zfY0mKuOG2dHVlkcX1hPNPOuwjJQDotISaIrNyrOwCjuN9ESli jsLY4u5w8G5PGhLwZMAG8lQAMww8XvWdCajQQInt3dsolHfh6vucxoEdSv8pqO/Z2RFST3 9u0pbPiZ9S2ADkE1HlV26e3SVIThMV14ChAc9y4rikQ4CtH5KOuXb7iNKe7tPg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1770733729; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Gav5EO2x4b+Iu5cZ7s1nEASHF+etnsO8JSnsqUYSKXvVBWaOrglCL19Kcz0OzkDxC2rtD+ Dryx2O+/QS5SvsbX7eVSltUZfQdAkm/rRTxNz0fqMADzuyT9T4H6acmJs+0k3ymZ9e/wZp GpHemu44n1vDBfeSTisd9doPYD0NYqaDcsc32UTcQ/e6s11xTJpRpMTkgffjdv9ZdnEG96 YPGuABPU3q3MfWIULvp/bBHUlOOECWFNcbtDlNABzDL86gRza78EW7obUvohipQjYR5v+L zURWPPIAl2rAHGZo/ucGlPUBfnTKW/6c/Rbvt0x1QJi8XaqWPQl6Ck6HgnH0Jw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1770733729; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=1fFKjqO5dAJU5JGAU8npMwxrIPiVtOFKQAahn1fsbkE=; b=JqFtk5d05AeAStnsMpYTA/lZ3xqFxK5vrHzC6FmkoXaOPTm59oOW5iBbmCpVhKgCCpez6A q9dXNdixvthazEyMs04Tl3ioMDWmneB1q1W7oDR/DDMnin0JJ5tgzKQ4p/GvmDyM3rQhei O/gLo74ov2ez/ZwAyhT9s86AO3ovQ86miYVBN25plIHs8Fbs0bL7BNzUxhGFGEW0Ls46dJ EQNoLCO+HcvveDPNFwFvqO4h42wCWFZYv8E8BAPdt+RTAOASW03lnEf4yX+9LtpkXCXE+s WZ1kaGROTBvRXT6LB4nJNnJerWvFGP9HkCwOOomZbO7XYRXN+dGJ2Mw2W/BMoA== Received: from ralga.knownspace (unknown [IPv6:2600:2b00:a720:d301:9f03:382a:d672:81f0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhibbits) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4f9P7h5L45zkbq; Tue, 10 Feb 2026 14:28:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhibbits@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2026 09:28:47 -0500 From: Justin Hibbits To: Minsoo Choo Cc: Warner Losh , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: What's the plan for powerpc64 in FreeBSD 16 Message-ID: <20260210092847.390d2aa7@ralga.knownspace> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.3.1 (GTK 3.24.51; powerpc64le-unknown-linux-gnu) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 10 Feb 2026 00:45:05 +0000 Minsoo Choo wrote: > On Monday, November 17th, 2025 at 11:58 AM, Warner Losh > wrote: >=20 > > Greetings, > > > > As we're getting close to the release date for FreeBSD 15.0, it's > > time to take stock of another architectures. This time, I'd like > > your feedback on the following plans. > > > > We'd like to retire powerpc64 and powerpc64le just before the > > FreeBSD stable/16 branch. > > > > This would give powerpc64 another two years of support in main, > > followed by sustaining support on stable/14 and stable/15 until the > > end of those branches. > > > > We've come to this point because the port is dwindling and we have > > a cost associated with keeping it around. The number of developers > > has fallen off so only a couple remain. Issues in powerpc are > > taking longer and longer to discover and resolve. The hardware has > > been a huge source of frustration for clusteradmin and we've no > > alternative for developers. There's only a tiny user base. We have > > trouble building packages for it. Also, powerpc has a number of > > interesting features of the architecture that make it the odd arch > > out. > > > > It's also big endian. While that may seem like a reason to keep it > > around, if we really can't support it and we're not actively > > testing functionality of the system, then keeping this around > > actually doesn't help keep us honest. It just gives us a burden we > > must bear. > > > > In my opinion, powerpc64 appears to have already fallen below > > critical mass, despite being a sentimental favorite for a number of > > FreeBSD developers. As such, I'd like us to consider planning to > > retire it before we branch 16. > > > > My questions today: Are you using this port? How many people are > > using it? And what's the installed base? It appears to be somewhat > > less than that of either i386 or armv7 based on user surveys and > > popularity at conferences. Also, any other comments you might have. > > > > Warner =20 >=20 > I've been working on LLDB for several weeks now. One thing I learned: > we should never expect improvement in ppc64be support for LLVM (at > least in LLDB). ppc64be POSIX userland debugging on LLDB is > incomplete=E2=80=94it's missing files that even riscv and loongarch imple= ment > and VSX registers are completely absent in some cases while ppc64le > debugging is still actively developed and maintained. Debugging is > one of the most crucial component in software development while LLVM > is FreeBSD's default toolchain. In this context, I don't see any > reason to keep support ppc64be. I was going to implement LLDB > userland and kernel debugging support for all supported architectures > from FreeBSD 14, but after I examined the current status of ppc64be > in LLDB, I decided to abandon it. >=20 > And this is industry trend. The only ppc manufacturer for POSIX > platforms, IBM, has been moving away from ppc64be. Major Linux > distros, including developed by IBM subsidiary RedHat, only offer > ppc64le binaries (RedHat and clones, CentOS, Fedora, SUSE, etc). Many > drivers assume that the host is running on little-endian, so those > drivers fail to work on big-endian systems. ppc64be is poorly > maintained and tested across many OSes and I don't see why we should > continue supporting it when there is no benefit. >=20 > -- > Minsoo >=20 > =20 Please document all the deficiencies you find. I'm still a major proponent of BE architecture, if only for nostalgia sake. Also, as Adrian pointed out, it makes us better overall if we keep BE around, because it helps reduce complacency from developers, as we know that not all is x86, not all is LE, not all is Linux. As for LLDB, I did the original port to powerpc64 back in 2014, and that targeted BE. It had some rough edges, and it was all rewritten later. But it shouldn't be a significant effort to get BE working again in LLDB, it just requires someone with time to do it, and since you brought it up (I wasn't aware that it was broken on BE only until now) I can take a look at it. I typically go for GDB when I debug, as it's a much more mature and familiar debugger. So far the only reason I see for favoring LE in software is that recent OpenGL and its spinoff(s) have forced graphics memory representation to be visible as "native endian", and GPUs got rid of BE mode long ago. An interesting note here is that Book-E PowerPC has page-level endian setting, so we could theoretically support DRI on the newer cards that need LE on devices with those CPUs (AmigaOne X5000 and the new one developed by the powerpc-notebook project) with little effort. But for anything that doesn't have this word-level "native visible" requirement, and instead has a strict byte order requirement, there is absolutely no reason to force LE, as we already have all of the macros and infrastructure needed to do the translation as needed; developers only need to use it, which is not at all difficult when it's documented by the vendor in some fashion. - Justin