Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:40:25 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky <erich@alogreentechnologies.com> To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Cc: Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com>, Adam Strohl <adams-freebsd@ateamsystems.com>, Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201206.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> Subject: Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ? Message-ID: <4585454.SPjgGfiois@x220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <4FCB37AC.6030308@ateamsystems.com> References: <20120602052228.GA6624@lonesome.com> <20120603030931.GA11225@lonesome.com> <4FCB37AC.6030308@ateamsystems.com>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
Hi, On 03 June 2012 PM 5:08:44 Adam Strohl wrote: > On 6/3/2012 10:09, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 03, 2012 at 01:43:43AM +0200, Fritz Wuehler wrote: > >> So there could be lots of overlap and just looking at the two numbers > >> you posted doesn't really tell the whole story. > > No, I agree that it doesn't. I was just trying to add an aside, and > > point out that the task would not be trivial. > > > > Since I'm heavily invested in FreeBSD ports I think I need to step back > > and let other folks comment in this thread. > > I manage and support a little over 50 FreeBSD servers (VMWare, Xen and servers are a bit different as the tricky ports are not installed there. > native) and feel that the port system, on the whole, is excellent. Its Yes, it is. But is this a reason to stop improving it a little bit. Just a little bit for the cases something went wrong. > easily one of the best features about FreeBSD. Portaudit reports > issues and I can plan and upgrade them as needed. Portupgrade works > great 99% of the time and when it doesn't it has the good sense to roll > back what its done. If there is any question as to what it should do it > errors and tells me, which is exactly what I want it to do. > I do not share the 99% for a server which runs some thin clients. But still, it makes life easy. > I've been a FreeBSD user for about 18 years and supported it > professionally for about 10. In this thread I've read a few posts that > contain blanket statements like "ports are broken" and "never work", I'm > at a loss as to how to respond to this as it is completely counter to my > experience. I wish I could see what they were talking about and figure I mentioned already one example. I install a plain FreeBSD on new hardware. I download the current ports tree and start compiling X then. I do this intentionally meanwhile as this did not work in a single case since around summer 2007 for me. I first reported this. I then tried to fix the make files myself. I could not find a working solution. Anyway, I always get a working system with some manual work. One time it is the left corner, one time it is the right corner where the problems hide. Do not ask me why it is so. After compiling X once on a machine, it is never a problem compiling it again. > out what happened so I could understand what caused them to make such a > statement. It's like they're talking about a different OS than the one > I know. > I know BSD since the end of the seventies from DEC hardware. This is the main reason why I am using it now. I think that I made the same mistake in thinking as you before. Hey, the OS is perfect. We are talking here about a real small problem when installing applications. Other operating systems would be happy if their problems would be that small. > I've written a simple script to run portaudit and pop up a dialog with > check boxes that then kicks off portupgrade for the selected ports which > have issues. 99% of the time its that simple. This is what I want in > a server environment. I do not want things auto-updating (a.k.a. auto > breaking) or making decisions about supporting libraries behind my back. Again, I did not experience these problems on a typical server. Just on servers which run thin clients or real desktop machines. > After reading this thread I am wondering if I should clean the update > dialog script up and submit to the ports tree. It seems like people > think the port update process is harder than it is because it lacks a > Windows Update like dialog which is essentially what this is akin to > (and there might be a port which does this already, too .. anyone?). > All the hard stuff has been done by the FreeBSD team, all I did was put > a bash/dialog script on it. I do not know if I suggested this here once. A small site which collects these things would be good. But who will maintain it. > > I very rarely run into ports that don't build on supported versions of > FreeBSD (ie; ones that haven't reached EoL). I have a number of > customers with a few 6.2 boxes [which I can't wait to upgrade] and still > almost everything builds without tinkering. > As I said before, it is not the updating as such, it is the time it will take when you do not have the time. > All of this is in the scope of servers though (web, DB, application, > etc) and not on the desktop. I haven't used a FreeBSD desktop since > probably 4.x, and while I don't begrudge the work people are doing for > the desktop experience it just doesn't apply to me nor is it why I love > FreeBSD. I won't say something like "you're running a server OS on > your desktop and expecting it to be like a Mac". What will say is: I'm > getting from this thread that a lot of the complaints people have seem > to be based around the desktop. My guess is that this is a super > minority of actual use (by server count). > Isn't this the problem FreeBSd has? I would like to see more people using it there. > BUT: I feel like people are judging how fit an FreeBSD is for server > work by how easy/Mac/Windows/whatever like (as many Linux distros try to > emulate) it is to update. Not good ... but it makes sense from a > social/human perspective, and is probably another thing we should > consider in terms of advocacy. > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS You got the point. This is all we are talking about. You found the proper words for it. All other users of FreeBSD do not have a problem with these little things. You have written your script, I have written my script. You know what knob to turn, I know what knob to turn. But the newcomer who wants to do some for the first time gets easily stuck here. Erich
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?4585454.SPjgGfiois>