From nobody Wed Jul 1 12:57:13 2026 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4gr0R52VmJz6kGR6 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2026 12:57:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fahnoe@fahnoetech.com) Received: from mail-244117.protonmail.ch (mail-244117.protonmail.ch [109.224.244.117]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "protonmail.com", Issuer "R12" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4gr0R46rgBz44W2 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2026 12:57:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fahnoe@fahnoetech.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fahnoetech.com; s=protonmail; t=1782910638; x=1783169838; bh=f1l1CooWUGSk7vM64a3DAo7mXd9J82+jNTgxgIGsT1s=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=JSqCUr0zfRnVff1my7xGnKXsYVYb0HgvLKNH/Xqo4tVjuyyXJCBKgNj8gdz14m98O hcrcuj188LSwwt8Rj1w3p7vAqFqboHI5c0RAc9Of8FDMpr4i9FWFJx/aWDlQfmZgB0 XZfISZOGw2g4cKM224pxMcFpsx2zWJ5fewraQdzjJ0VzhaMADI/+tnRSVmezrhP4gu hW5tDE90Fz5oWx+/4rjJGFZTfxWUIvq7EJBzFUl3sf1Fnq/oDBW9z5ReGYaNB+g5I6 gEStCnxCCkh7j8F6LwMWBHwWb0tNltKL0MPO+ZkYGpJTAY/L4wo7hhE99hN9cam3Vb a/pa7AUj0qS1g== Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2026 12:57:13 +0000 To: Alexander Ziaee From: Larry Fahnoe Cc: Roger Marquis , freebsd-pkgbase Subject: Re: None of "man freebsd-base" (or "man pkgbase"), "man pkg-upgrade", or "man pkg-install" deal with documenting .pkgsave and/or .pkgnew behavior or how to handle such Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 17174371:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: a9d82b1f765ca6906c2603d4b38aad0edeafcbbc List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Owner: Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:62371, ipnet:109.224.244.0/24, country:CH] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4gr0R46rgBz44W2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated On Tuesday, June 30th, 2026 at 6:04 PM, Alexander Ziaee = wrote: > I think we all agree that operators should always do all of their chores = promptly, so we put an entire section on this in the official FreeBSD 15.1 = upgrading docs :) >=20 > One of the principles in the doc project is that the docs are always bugg= y. In this case, I'm struggling with how to make it clearer without making = it less accessible. >=20 > If we put a tip box at the bottom of the section saying "tip: other opera= ting systems also do this, they just don't tell you", I think that would be= a bit condescending and also outside the scope of the doc. >=20 > People get fatigued easily when they detect irrelevant information or hit= patches of much higher information density. Then they start skipping and m= iss important stuff, and the ecosystem is much worse off. >=20 > Again, this is the same behavior I see in all other similar operating sys= tems, the only difference I see is that we are instructing all operators to= address it during the scheduled downtime as part of the approved upgrade p= rocess, and we are documenting files in the reference manual. But the docs = certainly have massive room for improvement! >=20 > Best, > Alex >=20 When I noted Mark's suggestion about pkg reporting non-zero counts of *.pkg= new and *.pkgsave files, I felt it was a very worthwhile suggestion, thus m= y seconding or endorsing his suggestion. My bringing up my own sysadmin exp= erience on other operating systems did not add meaningfully to the conversa= tion and has needlessly stirred the pot. I believe this to be a pkg issue, = and downstream of that a documentation issue. I agree, referencing other op= erating systems in the FreeBSD documentation is probably not helpful. >> On Monday, June 29th, 2026, Mark Millard wrote: >> >>> I have suggested elsewhere that the last of the output from those >>> commands should probably list the counts of each of *.pkgnew and >>> *.pkgave such files generated for any where the count is positive. >>> That would make a good prompt to go looking --and allow avoiding >>> looking when none were generated. --Larry