From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 13:55:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23902158E871; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:55:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.blih.net", Issuer "mail.blih.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB398197D; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:55:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 76f0e8c2; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:55:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=MLAcrXcF53XA7rh7ywbaMUgcCS4=; b=FrWKqTnTfxlianTyg0eI+7KrLjVb L6GgT4tt8gE90MEQfz8nNlz+3cmzpC6TpXee+8Z20fE6vpTnxZRAh30M+5rI9WB6 Ej2gMptD/Jy7RVJmr4P2BKQ35tfRVBs9Ha/FHvp2VIIVbo9RzFW65ukQ1+Jqh/00 VkeUL2ZjqlWaT8I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s= mail; b=DjwipvzFHHdC3LvK7OlJ5FYooPxmQJnYK1IAsoHOChxJo+ZFX+/TobIs z7WpJtQA91Ij5B+cym6YB3/6RKi0GtuybjkqPlwcd1lpZDgbyrN3FBC1VojKmy32 sl+1ajou9LaTXqDqdt8nojcrvdf+abEGIeVQ+/a2vRfI/WRV2wo= Received: from skull.home.blih.net (ip-9.net-89-3-105.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.105.9]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 20095b58 TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:55:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:55:22 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Kris Moore Cc: FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-Id: <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2CB398197D X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mail header.b=FrWKqTnT; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.177.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.45)[-0.454,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.83.177.182/32]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bidouilliste.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.66)[0.664,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx-backup.blih.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.18)[0.183,0]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.38)[ip: (-0.87), ipnet: 212.83.160.0/19(2.97), asn: 12876(-0.17), country: FR(-0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.160.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:55:28 -0000 On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400 Kris Moore wrote: > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot > wrote: > > > > > Hi Kris, > > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 > > wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and > > 13-current > > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images > > which > > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command directly. > > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, we've > > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and let > > us > > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that page > > going > > > forward. > > > > > > > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your > > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to > > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. > > > > - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and > > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor > > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and > > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. > > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are > updated at same time. > Which could never be imported into FreeBSD. > > > > - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for > > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs > > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be > > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is > > a supposition, I haven't personally tested). > > > > See above. > > > > - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your > > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need > > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose > > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us > > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. > > > > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll get > the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one. Mhm no, the kernel-debug packages only add the debug file in /usr/lib/debug/boot/ I'm talking about installing multiple kernels in // (i.e. /boot/kernel.GENERIC /boot/kernel.MYFEATUREIWANTTOTEST) like describe here : https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase#Project_goals_and_additional_unresolved_issues in the "How to handle /boot/kernel and /boot/kernel.$KERNCONF" point. > > > - Since you reduced the granularity on the userland bits it would mean > > that if we use your implementation for -p updates we would download the > > whole userland packages instead of just updating the package that was > > patched. For example with pkgbase, updating from 12.0 to 12.0p1 will > > only update the FreeBSD-runtime package. Yes this package is still big > > to download when you compare to what have changed but until pkg(8) have > > delta pkg supports (and if it will have support, I don't know if > > this is a wish or not) this is the best way to go. > > > > Correct, this is by design. We used the in-tree pkg base for nearly a year, > and found that the granularity didn't really offer any savings from a > download or time perspective. Updating 100+ packages took far longer than a > single one, due to all the meta operations. Additionally in real-world > usage, we found that base packages tended to all get updated at the same > time, which took far longer via pkg, since it had to go and perform 100+ > fetch operations just to download the base system bits. > But you never need to update 100+ packages on a proper pkgbase setup for -p updates. Again on a 12.0 to 12.0-p1 update only one package will be updated. > > > - I see that you are sorting the plist for kernel and userland based > > on the line length [1], why is that ? > > > Whoops! I'll fix :) > > > > > > I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if > > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those > > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while > > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and > > will not be deleted in the user computer. > > > > > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this direction. > Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us, > current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully. Can you give me more info on this ? What where the WITH/WITHOUT flags that causes problems ? > Additionally we've > added some additional features, such as being able to 'pkg install os/src' > to get system sources used in exact build, as well as being able to rebuild > your local world / kernel packages using ports "make config" framework is > super handy. > That would not be hard to add to pkgbase, I'll add it to my todo list. > > > > > > > > Additionally, I will be hosting a Package Base working group at BSDCan > > 2019, > > > and welcome user and developer attendance to discuss this and other > > ongoing > > > package work: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase > > > > > > > I will be present and looking forward to work with you on this. > > > > Cheers, > > > > P.S. : FYI I'm working on pkgbase currently and I will have some > > patches to commit soon (bsdinstall support, memstick creation that > > install a pkgbase aware installaton etc ...). > > > > Great! Looking forward to discussion then! > > > > > > [1] : > > > > https://github.com/trueos/trueos-ports/blob/trueos-master/os/userland-base/Makefile#L35 > > > > -- > > Emmanuel Vadot > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot