Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:36:15 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" <cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com> Cc: cjclark@home.com, Alex Zepeda <jazepeda@pacbell.net>, Olaf Hoyer <ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> In-Reply-To: <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:43:02PM %2B0000 References: <20000305185712.H62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:43:02PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Yes, but look at the trend in America towards larger engines and larger > > > vehicles. And yes, a catalytic convertor does reduce emissions, but a > > > fuel injected car, with an oxygen sensor, when fed oxygenated fuel will > > > think that it's running lean and richen the mixture, meaning more fuel is > > > burned than needed. > > > > Do you have any cites for this? I am not too familiar with the > > intricacies of fuel-injection technology, but wonder how this would > > occur. If the sensor you are talking about somehow detects > > atmospheric, free oxygen, it won't pick up the stuff in the gas. The > > 'E' in MBTE is for ether. It has a oxygen bonded to two carbons, and I > > really don't think a sensor that picks up free oxygen would detect > > it. > > 1986. University of Denver study. Funded by an NSF grant. > > Unfortunately, chemists are less adept at keeping their > literature indexed and on line than computer scientists. Hey there! My education was chemical engineering, so we ain't all computer clueles_&##^@^@ NO CARRIER > Here is the public page for the place that has this and similar > papers archived, but their search engine is currently broken: > > http://www.cutr.eng.usf.edu/research/afitc/public.htm Well, I was specifically interested in the idea that oxygenated fuels screw up an "oxygen sensor" in fuel-injected engines. I cannot find something like that on the page. Most of the stuff on that page seems pretty exotic, "An Investigation Into the Use of Piezo-Fluidic Combined Units As Fuel Injectors for Natural Gas Engines." Was one of the hits when I started searching for "inject." > Here is what it does to your hoses and seals: > > http://cartalk.cars.com/Info/Cyberchumps/Questions/q242.html Actually, that URL doesn't say anything really, For the last several years, we've been using oxygenated fuels in our lawn mowers and snow blowers, without any apparent ill effect. Tom and Ray offering anecdotal evidence!? Anyway, one would expect that oxygenated fuels would be no worse if not easier on most hoses and seals (organic polymers) since they would tend to be more hydrophilic. However, it does strongly depend on the exact composition of the polymer. But at present with oxygenated fuels common, I would imagine engineers take them into account and choose materials accordingly, which makes the point moot. Here's a press release from Bayer about their cool new thermoplast that holds up better in fuel environments, http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19990928/press000297.html Of course if you are driving a relatively old vehicle (like me, '87), lot of good that does you. > Using queries for "+denver +oxygenated" on Altavista, you can > get about 566 hits, and search them down. I _could,_ I suppose. Searching '+fuel +oxygenate +injector' is what I was specifically interested in and it returned a mere 385 hits. (Of course I was most interested in the previous poster backing up his claims with some cites, but we discussed it a little in private email.) A Chevron page (http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/bulletin/oxy-fuel/whwyoxy.html) seems to flat-out refute the idea that oxgyenates mess up the air-fuel mix, Oxygenated gasoline also reduces carbon monoxide emissions. This is how it works: Engines emit more carbon monoxide when they are fed "rich" air/fuel mixtures -- mixtures containing more fuel than can be completely "burned" by the oxygen (from the air) in the mixture. Rich air/fuel mixtures are used during engine startup and warmup and at full throttle (for rapid acceleration). Oxygenated gasoline requires less oxygen (from the air) for complete burning than the same volume of conventional gasoline. Adding oxygenate is like adding more air. So, for the same carburetor or fuel injection setting, changing an engine's fuel from conventional gasoline to oxygenated gasoline produces a "less rich" air/fuel mixture and, therefore, one which generates less carbon monoxide when it burns. The carbon monoxide reduction obtained from oxygenated gasoline is much larger for older cars than for newer, well-maintained cars. They follow with a quote of the wise piece of legislation our Congress passed that requires oxygenated fuels, All gasoline sold in the specified carbon monoxide nonattainment areas during the winter months when the carbon monoxide level is the highest must be oxygenated gasoline with a minimum oxygen content of 2.7 weight percent. And just to toss in another interesting one, here is a lab study of an engine by a student at PSU, http://www.energyinstitute.psu.edu/cl/altfuels.html It's a diesel engine, so it's fuel injected. > > > Oxygenated fuel only works well with carb'd cars. > > > > After all I said above, I'd love a cite for this too. Aren't the > > majority of new vehicles pretty much all fuel injected. > > My car, which gets 64 miles a gallon, is carbuerated, as was > the Honda CRX-HF, which got 72 miles a gallon. Both have > higher pollution output with Oxygenated fuels; I have the > Dynamometer results (required in Pima County, Arizona) which > prove this, as they are on a six month Oxygenation cycle, > and my car was borderline, then it had a clean bill of health > (my registration renewal straddled the Oxygenation period). Dude! 72 mpg in a CRX-HF? It musta been all highway driving and all downhill. Geez, must be the weather out there. I drive a plain ol' CRX and don't get near that, especially in the winter with the combo of the different gas mix and the time it takes a carbuerated engine to warm up. In cold weather areas, it's hard to separate the lower performance due to the different gas mix and due to adverse conditions, but my milage drops 10-15 mpg during the winter. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?20000307213615.A73820>