From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Mar 20 17:38:10 2021 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A345AFE14 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:38:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mohammad@thelightbird.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F2nzP0d0dz4n8B for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:38:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mohammad@thelightbird.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 184so15886234ljf.9 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=thelightbird-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=u2U6wpKh9sSEPgYn9Quga0x5kQeAoDFih178lzJ/Mhw=; b=ptj/dV5EnDQFukzZOkQAoNQ15OcSCZmwOAKYeY+AiNAZbm1lKopBw1zEgIgl7D1Hhl MbCrnOTjl8H6UATpAOIvu6s+bEh0BSNj6D5Wyxv5NYlq1mMFRZerqUM6Znk9gsqKvTJd uXi+vEBsNFJVDM0cdr4YDcVn+nJ/g+8zK+MDoouCaW6mKIf+Q1q7CzE4kDXaNbf0Fpzq M4y/ZN3MIF3YIXaQ403pbcUO6OQICLxNf+pBdIud8QTthBmAsrVlVXwcQ1xkU6nfmUHv IEdVNccbPAYPh2edXByqZfPZGO86tuTqrHrYr3BuiOEBH1OBBMAp6pOMcc34yn4dheL8 Cn8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u2U6wpKh9sSEPgYn9Quga0x5kQeAoDFih178lzJ/Mhw=; b=LKL58Hrn9lqkdL1GIYJ28aKy+OG/qah0KFZoyz9aMVsdxLQBGed89mXEVWuZmc4g6r QFdIMIjJh1zuIH/VHGmnypdcEAbfrMdjP5R/YR6B0rmicieWtEwbNApLjQNFECP5tx0z e1TUyLhsDjSHhbwMljxHnJbwER80/ZGih0I5ldq7RRIV2ZyzZm0YuREjX+1yYnmr3N9G naxTmNtvpWAOgu4xvs7xhGxXAjZXGlI5pWpDyZ4zBtXSAAydkfdpWMRR2WyNxXtX/KqG BqK7zjcBQUb0xgbZdw/WOoWUpY1dt63CZlBcmyz90xYKUC3F57FiNl2VFgD39HwydiEG 2pLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ehlXLmLkm14qmoZbgAt4/T7XCeuBvsm/dM8mVfsjt3USke5Wa fMdU6PNxU2RunFLBI1Aa0BkZ19fW32HKfyczCjhPcrzVzrFifr8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwt/blx/IHYvtlONrNqUi84HqxbaaLrli+u6E+nrrjByMnH/rTibbRtY7VLm1Z3xk9sk7aBgDCq6TAvlAqC5/c= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b5b9:: with SMTP id f25mr4427802ljn.90.1616261886184; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210319101040.00005c35@seibercom.net> <6054BE1B.50706@gmail.com> <20210319130249.000042a1@seibercom.net> <5a8cf0be-646a-a433-2428-9700a47c1bf0@att.net> <20210319140448.00007521@seibercom.net> <20210319213214.4f8ddf55@archlinux> <20210320063427.000040f5@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Mohammad Noureldin Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:37:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OS to replace FreeBSD To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4F2nzP0d0dz4n8B X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=thelightbird-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ptj/dV5E; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mohammad@thelightbird.com does not designate 2a00:1450:4864:20::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mohammad@thelightbird.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.30 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[thelightbird-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[thelightbird.com]; SPAMHAUS_ZRD(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22c:from:127.0.2.255]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[thelightbird-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RBL_DBL_DONT_QUERY_IPS(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22c:from]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.34 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:38:10 -0000 Hi Valeri, On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 3:15 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > On Mar 20, 2021, at 7:01 AM, Mohammad Noureldin < > mohammad@thelightbird.com> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I am new to this mailing list, using FreeBSD/*BSD on and off. Joined th= e > > mailing list because I have a couple of project ideas that I want to > build > > on top of *BSD. > > > > Though I am new, and maybe relative to many others here I am a newbie, > > allow me to comment on all the aspects addressed (so far) in this email > > thread: > > > > - "It is easy to build a new (custom) kernel", "Unix is made by technic= al > > people for technical people", etc: > > > > Though historically it is true that Unix like systems are made by > technical > > people for technical people, it doesn't mean that it has to stay like > this. > > IMHO, such motto causes a great piece of Engineering like *BSD to loose > > ground for other Unix like systems, namely Linux and all it's Distros. > Not > > that I am a Linux hatter, I have respect to both. > > > > Related to that, I don't believe that it is a good message to FreeBSD > > users, that if you don't know how to build a new kernel, then there is = no > > place for you here. IMHO, this really hurts the image of the community = of > > FreeBSD specially in the eyes of new commers. Notice these email messag= es > > are archived. > > That was said by only one - very loud - member of FreeBSD community, > people here are much milder and way more polite. And I for one do not sha= re > the view that FreeBSD in particular and open source systems in general ar= e > only for people with [some] technical knowledge. > That was exactly my point :) . One reason to share my opinions, though I am new here, is that I have 100% trust in the openness, inclusiveness and friendliness of the FreeBSD community. But some conversations may be read in the wrong way in readers didn't read the details of the discussion. > > 1. Installation of FreeBSD is quite streamlined (and same are Debian, > Ubuntu=E2=80=A6) > > 2. Interaction with machine is same nice as closed source systems' once > you have Xwindow installed (here FreeBSD may need a bit effort compared t= o > Linuxes I mentioned) > > 3. Compiling kernel. In general this suggest that I repeat here what I > tell my users who never used Linux or UNIX: how many commands do you need > to know to start using shell? 4 - 5, I=E2=80=99ll show you them in a minu= te. Then > you just start, =E2=80=A6 and this is really true. Compiling kernel is ju= st another > 3-4 commands. It is simple, no need to hold people from doing it > > > - About the problem reported: > > > > Thanks for all who went through the long list of comments on that PR an= d > > explained in brief that it is a USB controller/HW problem. > > > > In that respect, I do agree with Jerry and others wondering how other > OS(s) > > can manage running on the same HW (in case that has been proven) ? I > > believe it worths looking at that. I would have volunteered to dig deep= er > > into that, but I know I don't have the required experience (unless > someone > > is willing to mentor me ? :) ) > > No comment on this specific troublesome hardware. Linux in my observation > has many =E2=80=9Cworkarounds=E2=80=9D to deal with misbehaving hardware.= FreeBSD may be > acting =E2=80=9Ccleaner=E2=80=9D here, hence stays more stringent system,= but experts may > correct me. I still remember one chipset which is NOT worth effort writin= g > driver for: BCM 43xx Broadcom WiFi. That is 32 bit chip, sitting on 64 bi= t > bus, no need to add more detail after that. > > > And responding to that:"OK, just shut up and go install another OS", is > not > > a community building attitude at all. > > I agree, saying that is not polite. Better just ignore the OP. Which I > observe many experts did, though several tried to help. Way back before > first asking for help on one of technical lists I read list etiquette > carefully, and there are several things to keep in mind, the OP didn=E2= =80=99t show > some of them (not all definitely). Just some of what I remember: > > Before asking for help, try do resolve issue yourself within your ability > > Describe what you tried and give all details; this simultaneously will > show that you did put effort on your side, then you will less likely to b= e > ignored > > Disrespect to others is likely to make you ignored > > Read carefully suggestions and try to follow them. Report what worked and > what didn=E2=80=99t. You at least have to respect time and effort of expe= rts trying > to help you. > > -- > I stop here just by saying, please, everybody, do not take this as an > attempt of =E2=80=9Cmentoring=E2=80=9D, but someone may find truth in the= above; I for one > did. > > > I have just one comment on the hardware choice: this one is one of Dell > =E2=80=9Cconsumer grade=E2=80=9D products, which is not intended to last,= I wouldn=E2=80=99t choose > it myself. They look cheaper upfront, but they end up more expensive in a > log run. Dell OptiPlex (not much more expensive) would have been my choic= e > of the same class of hardware. > > Be it me, I would go with one or both of solutions already suggested in > the thread: > > 1. Disable in BIOS on board USB and add USB card if necessary > > 2. Recompile kernel with switched off USB-3. The first for me would be > preferable, just to not keep recompiling kernel once kernel security > patches are released (but that is me, lazy person) > > > Good luck, Jerry, in resolving your technical issue. > > Valeri > > > And for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a second that Jerry is > > lazy or not skilled enough, helping him and fixing the problem or clear= ly > > explaining a solution without bashing him, is not just for Jerry, it is > for > > the whole community, for the current and new members who will be > interested > > to join in the future. > > > > Jerry, I am curious, did you have time to try one the suggestions, > > specially running FreeBSD on a VM to see if it still suffers from the > same > > problem ? > > > > You all have a great day/evening > > > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:35 Jerry wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:30:00 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Ralf Mardorf > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:16:33 -0700, freebsd@johnea.net wrote: > >>>>> Void uses a runit init system with no systemd > >>>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I suspect it's not a good idea to use Linux without systemd. For > >>>> example, by upstream udev is part of systemd. Maintaining Linux > >>>> without systemd is a bottomless pit. > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:35:21 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >>>>> Recompiling the kernel is *TRIVIAL* if you refuse to do it then you > >>>>> should not be using any Unix variant > >>>> > >>>> I dislike this tone of voice. However, I agree that compiling the > >>>> kernel might be less effort, than migrating to another operating > >>>> system. If you would e.g. migrate to Arch Linux, you need to get > >>>> used to systemd. Getting used to systemd isn't pleasant. If you > >>>> chose a Linux distro that doesn't use systemd, you likely will > >>>> experience all kinds of trouble, if you want to customize your > >>>> install. > >>> > >>> I used that tone because it really is simple and if you can't/won't > >>> recompile the kernel before throwing the baby out despite with the ba= th > >>> water then you really don't have the skills/desire needed to use Unix > >>> effectively... Just to show how trivial it really is > >>> > >>> 1. Edit /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/GENERIC (or i386 instead of amd64 if > >>> your still using it) to comment out the xhci line (line 327 in > >>> 12.2-RELASE-pl3) to remove USB 3.0 support > >>> 2. cd /usr/src > >>> 3. make kernel > >>> 4. etcupdate > >>> 5. reboot > >>> > >>> Done.... how hard is that? > >> > >> I never said I could not compile a new kernel, I said I could not > >> install the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the installation > >> of the OS precede the creation of a new kernel? Furthermore, the > >> screen just rolls away filling up with the error message ad infinitum. > >> > >> By the way, as I understand it, creating a custom kernel nullifies the > >> use of "freebsd update". Wow, things just keep getting better & better= . > >> > >> What I cannot understand is that FreeBSD knows it has a problem, one > >> not shared by any other OS as far as I have been able to ascertain, > >> and I have done a lot of research, and they refuse to fix it. The > >> problem did not exist before version 12.x, so it is not like they neve= r > >> were able to get it right. > >> > >> -- > >> Jerry > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > --=20 Mohammad Noureldin Founder/Owner The Lightbird