From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 2 22:43:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB94106566C for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:43:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from curtis.penner2@gmail.com) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.171]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406388FC13 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:43:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from curtis.penner2@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 24so493909wfg.7 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:43:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sa+r45eKEyrdWwy/piwoO2ExL44jGcpSQslEfp9uVCs=; b=QWQLxmPhUqXzeP04v695Bkk8gZwSmh+Z7A0k6wXdYZvyavJwu5xVNHlE+hUorYPXJD OJxiMe99bJWLR4C9ACwXkWG+t6smR6NIEOyiGEO+K2UPSdOWbvV0KLVigy6m7afhkFaD DaQeQuMiKOCjNBoMmncg9F9wqLYv8oDjKd2rY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cDkqtgw+g4CL4JnlapXpzG6ySRXSgjKFmAlJ00PuM7aVnw0lf23+4WRokUYNy9PgUs lTxFYh7WVr2dpHmt1g+kak15WU3Hx8H01li8zax4HkxFegiu96/RF5S/LTrTVzCveEBL aHYcO/1GF2MXmDFY4zkVYYrwJkQJe/QuJEcQU= Received: by 10.142.173.8 with SMTP id v8mr1224516wfe.221.1215037026730; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.2.105? ( [71.131.191.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 29sm18706046wfg.0.2008.07.02.15.16.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <486BFE3B.3040509@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:16:27 -0700 From: Curtis Penner User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jan6146@gmail.com References: <784966050807021123l267aa20en39eb513c12c90ad2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <784966050807021123l267aa20en39eb513c12c90ad2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sysinstall is still inadequate after all of these years X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:43:18 -0000 Let us take this further. Let's compare BSD to the Linux install solutions. Well, lets not, Linux is so far ahead of BSD. Linux understands the user. BSD has a better overall core OS then the other UNIX flavors. The size to capability is outstanding. Once you have the core OS on the system it is rock steady and only getting better. The documentation is outstanding. It is what others should look to. So what is wrong? It doesn't have the native 3rd party applications. Why? Not enough users. Why? Because it is hard to get what you want unless you are tech savvy. When you do a system install it is like jumping back to the 80's. The front-end is like something from the DOS days. You have to be tech savvy to know what you want to do. You have to search out all the variations of the applications (tedious and unnecessary) to get a full package -- Examples: Postgres, PHP, etc. To add wireless (very common these day), you better set aside as much time or more as doing the initial install. Given that the system is rock solid, you think more people would develop on it, at least secondarily. But no. Java - go fish. All the development environments and features that go with it (Eclipse, NetBean, Hibernation, Sturts, and so forth) are painful to get. You feel like a rabbit jumping around, and then it most likely doesn't work. That is such a turn off. As for the installs, to get an idea of how to package an install, look at the current install packages that are from the Linux side. You don't have to copy, but emulate. (Oh, the best out-of-the-box is Apple.) I have installed Linux, MacOS, HPUX, Solaris, Window (NT, XP, Vista), and the BSDs, and I have found the BSDs to be so yesterday that there is little in common with the rest. Porting, so that applications that matter go native, we need more installs and more people on the systems. That means more installs to laptops. The installs have to be seamless and complete. That mean getting more Open Source people and companies to compile and distribute BSD. I am looking forward to a time when installing BSD is point and click with not much understanding of what is going on (unless I want to go advance and do special custom work). -Curtis Rob Lytle wrote: > Hi All, > > My depressing analysis- YMMV. I've used FreeBSD since 1998. > > 1..Installing the packages off of the menu on the 3 CDROMs is an incredibly > tedious miserable process. I had to switch out the CD's around 40 times. > If you don't believe me, just mark a whole bunch of random packages after > obtaining the 7.0 release CD's, ad then install. Its frustrating and almost > like Windows, except its a bit faster as replacing CD's is faster than > reboots. > > 2. When installing any given package, if a dependency is already there , > the package aborts and then goes though some loop where you have to press > OK half a dozen times. Thats insane. > > I think the CD switching problem would be to install all the packages at > once from CD1, then CD2, then CD3. As for the second case, I don't know > enough about the infrastructure to suggest any thing except to perhaps > comment that code in its entirety or put in switch to bypass already > installed dependencies. > > I wish I knew more about your infrastructure to fix this myself. Is it > written in Python? Thats the only language I'm not so rusty at. I've > programmed in 5 languages, but that was long ago. I'm old. But someone who > knows the system could probably fix it fast. I think this is such an > inherent infrastructure problem that has existed so long that a bug report > would be futile. > > Food for thought. Thanks, > > Rob > >