From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 00:26:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348F833C284 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:26:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gDZM33BRz3ylD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.252]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5B3B4E652 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:26:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:26:16 -0500 References: To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gDZM33BRz3ylD X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.19 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.16)[-0.161]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.61)[0.608]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.14)[0.138]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 00:26:20 -0000 > On Jun 7, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Donald Wilde wrote: >=20 >> On 6/7/20, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:46 PM Valeri Galtsev = >>=20 >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman = >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never = want >>>>>> to >>>>>> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new >> developer's >>>>>> career. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an = odd >>>>> assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea = of >> not >>>>> wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family = SUV, >>>>> not >>>>> particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or = very >> low >>>>> level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid = code >>>> that >>>>> doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it = but >>>> learn >>>>> it with other languages. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> To the OP: >>>>=20 >>>> As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and = Oracle >>>> who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started = charging >>>> money end users of applications written in Java. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> Where on Earth did you get the idea that Oracle charges/gets = royalties >> for >>> 3rd application in Java!?!?!??!?!? I have *NEVER* paid a dime for = any >>> application and/or anything else written in Java (nor is there any >> language >>> in the legal material that comes with the language and/or any of the >> tools >>> that would even allow for a royalty)... the language spec is = completely >>> open and anyone can write a compiler or a JVM (all the specs are >> completely >>> available)..... IBM has made one so have a few other people = including >> GNU. >>>=20 >> You can use java 8 for your own purposes but Oracle's license >> agreement on their website clearly states that only up until Java 7 = is >> it truly free. :-( This change occurred several years ago now. >>=20 >> I don't have time to get the citation to support Valeri's assertion, >> but it is true. >>=20 >=20 > Then Wikipedia MUST be wrong? A direct quote from there article on = OpenJDK > (1st paragraph): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenJDK >=20 > "OpenJDK (Open Java Development Kit) is a free and open-source > implementation of the Java Platform, Standard Edition (Java SE).[1] It = is > the result of an effort Sun Microsystems began in 2006. The = implementation > is licensed under the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) version 2 = with a > linking exception. Were it not for the GPL linking exception, = components > that linked to the Java class library would be subject to the terms of = the > GPL license. OpenJDK is the official reference implementation of Java = SE > since version 7.[2][3][4]" >=20 > And from the the OpenJDK web site itself: >=20 > "Will Oracle change the OpenJDK licensing model? >=20 > No. The OpenJDK Community continues to thrive with contributions from > Oracle, as well as other companies, researchers, and individuals, and = the > GPL-based licensing model is one large part of this success. Oracle = has no > plans to change it." https://openjdk.java.net/faq/ >=20 > As to the language spec license and jvm spec license: >=20 > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se14/html/spec-license.html > (Apache derived license due to needing the patent infringement = clause). > [There are no patents that pertain to Java per se] >=20 This is just general thought not addressed to anyone in particular. For the moment it indeed is true that openjdk is free. While Sun = Microsystems was behind Java I was quite certain there will be no = changes neither for end user use of Java, not for openjdk. Sun = Microsystem did have that reputation (at least, in my book). Oracle has = different reputation (again, in my book). And charging end users of java = applications was not a surprise for me. I am not saying openjdk will = have the same faith, but if that happens, it will not come as a surprise = for me. Now, it is everybody=E2=80=99s own judgement people should rely on in = estimate of how useful their skills in programming in Java may be in = some future to come. They still may be valuable even if you shift your = field out of open source domain, so do your own thinking. Just my 2 cents, as always. Valeri >=20 > --=20 > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"