Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:44:49 -0500 From: Karl Denninger <karl@denninger.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <c897e880-8d7a-4f3e-9d0d-94f70ac29a20@denninger.net> In-Reply-To: <6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net> References: <CAOtMX2hAUiWdGPtpaCJLPZB%2Bj2yzNw5DSjUmkwTi%2B%2BmyemehCA@mail.gmail.com> <CAFF117C-4E6B-4339-8A9A-391ED720C508@freebsd.am> <a1a064e5-c968-b57-c87-f9fafac7bf@puchar.net> <3DCF4236-4DFA-448E-A378-DE04EC147B50@FreeBSD.org> <20240201000734.83a86f486691276e533530e4@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <782FA00C-3B90-49C8-85F7-AF784F42A3CC@FreeBSD.org> <6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net>
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On 1/31/2024 16:31, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, David Chisnall wrote:
>
>> On 31 Jan 2024, at 15:07, Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> First of all, NO MEMORY-SAFE language can write codes using volatile
>>> memory objects, most notably, memory-mapped I/O and/or DMA driver.
>>
>> The first half of that is obvious nonsense. Memory-mapped I/O is not
>> intrinsically unsafe, from a memory-safety perspective. Even Java has
>> volatile objects and Sun Labs used Java for device drivers twenty
>> years ago. Having a memory-safe interface for MMIO is helpful.
> This line above is complete nonsense. as most of that discussion.
>
> ......
>
I've read most of this thread thus far and have a few observations.
Mind you this is coming from a 60 year old who was programming in
assembler before I had a driver's license and has run FreeBSD both
personally and professionally all the way back to the mid 1990s when
MCSNet ran on it both on our back end and in customer-facing use. I'll
try to keep this somewhat-brief as I'm not really interested in a catfight.
Languages come and go in popularity. Some concepts endure, but
implementations often not-so-much. Sometimes decisions made a long time
ago wind up locking you up "almost forever"; witness Android as an
example. Sometimes much less-consequential decisions (e.g. to use
something from packages) bites you; Digital Ocean, for example, no
longer "supports" FreeBSD at all. They used to up to FreeBSD 11. Why no
longer? Maybe (can't be proved) because they used "jq" to parse the
cloud config files, that's a package, their cloud init script /forgot
/to put the "REQUIRE" for "ldconfig" in there to make sure adding local
libraries was run first /and thus on an upgrade to a newer version if
rcorder spat things out differently it could try to run the cloud init
before the linker knew where the shared libraries were and thus break
all networking, appearing to be entirely dead. /It took me 30 seconds to
find this and eight bytes of inserted text to fix it, I reported it back
to DO but.... they haven't changed their mind on forward support. Sad
too because their infrastructure works really well with FreeBSD (in fact
my blog has been on it for several years now and still is on 13.2p8)
The idea of having a language at compile time cover for foolish mistakes
or lack of attention sounds good but as we have all seen with various
data breaches whenever you think you've made something idiot-proof
Murphy comes up with a better idiot. I'm not much of a fan of the
premise that with more-rapid development of working code one also gets
both correct and more-efficient code, and again I post up Android (which
I do write app code for) as a counter-example.
Bringing a language into base IMHO ought to be very carefully considered
/as removing it might be impossible down the road and ultimately FreeBSD
could pay horribly for that. /This is especially true when the language
itself isn't simply a language; it also means that in practical use it
has a huge number of other outside resources (e.g. containers or
whatever) particularly when they're not static and might have
compilation issues down the road. I personally hate coding for Android
(although I do it) because its essentially required to use their IDE to
be productive at all and it changes out from under you whenever Google
decides to deprecate or change something; do we really want to bring
that sort of situation into FreeBSD? In addition I've been bit several
times by the "floating dependency" thing with with php over the years --
php itself is of course a package but there are /other /packages that
use it as a language and a huge number of modules that are brought in to
handle various things from xml parsing to database connectivity. Several
times over the years I've upgraded php using "pkg upgrade" and
immediately had one or more packages that allegedly should be
forward-compatible break with missing dependencies that weren't
originally there and thus "pkg" had no knowledge of them. These are the
risks you accept when using a "language + other things" model in all
respects; it can happen with code linked against openssl, for example
(e.g. Postgres was a recent one built from source that required a bit of
effort to resolve as I build that in a production environment I'm
responsible for from source.)
I would argue that this risk in a core component should not be accepted
without a showing of extraordinary benefit in the context of improvement
of some element that the core system includes now, and even then only if
the container problem can be resolved in a way that will not wind up
screwing the ability to build -- including a retrospective release -- on
an indefinite basis down the road. That is, if you can't (for example)
check out 14.x five years from now /and build it from source /then its
not acceptable, which implies that whatever containerized assets are
required they must also be in said tree and versioned in same without
having to be pulled from an external source (which may have changed such
that backward compatibility to build has been lost.) This could get
into more than just a technical question if there are potential
licensing issues with those "must have to build" assets as well.
My 2 bits of contribution; carry on.
--
Karl Denninger
karl@denninger.net
/The Market Ticker/
/[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/31/2024 16:31, Wojciech Puchar
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net">
<br>
On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, David Chisnall wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 31 Jan 2024, at 15:07, Tomoaki AOKI
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp"><junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp></a> wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
First of all, NO MEMORY-SAFE language can write codes using
volatile
<br>
memory objects, most notably, memory-mapped I/O and/or DMA
driver.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The first half of that is obvious nonsense. Memory-mapped I/O
is not intrinsically unsafe, from a memory-safety perspective.
Even Java has volatile objects and Sun Labs used Java for device
drivers twenty years ago. Having a memory-safe interface for
MMIO is helpful.
<br>
</blockquote>
This line above is complete nonsense. as most of that discussion.
<br>
<br>
......<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>I've read most of this thread thus far and have a few
observations. Mind you this is coming from a 60 year old who was
programming in assembler before I had a driver's license and has
run FreeBSD both personally and professionally all the way back to
the mid 1990s when MCSNet ran on it both on our back end and in
customer-facing use. I'll try to keep this somewhat-brief as I'm
not really interested in a catfight.<br>
</p>
<p>Languages come and go in popularity. Some concepts endure, but
implementations often not-so-much. Sometimes decisions made a
long time ago wind up locking you up "almost forever"; witness
Android as an example. Sometimes much less-consequential
decisions (e.g. to use something from packages) bites you; Digital
Ocean, for example, no longer "supports" FreeBSD at all. They used
to up to FreeBSD 11. Why no longer? Maybe (can't be proved)
because they used "jq" to parse the cloud config files, that's a
package, their cloud init script <i>forgot </i>to put the
"REQUIRE" for "ldconfig" in there to make sure adding local
libraries was run first <i>and thus on an upgrade to a newer
version if rcorder spat things out differently it could try to
run the cloud init before the linker knew where the shared
libraries were and thus break all networking, appearing to be
entirely dead. </i>It took me 30 seconds to find this and
eight bytes of inserted text to fix it, I reported it back to DO
but.... they haven't changed their mind on forward support. Sad
too because their infrastructure works really well with FreeBSD
(in fact my blog has been on it for several years now and still is
on 13.2p8)</p>
<p>The idea of having a language at compile time cover for foolish
mistakes or lack of attention sounds good but as we have all seen
with various data breaches whenever you think you've made
something idiot-proof Murphy comes up with a better idiot. I'm
not much of a fan of the premise that with more-rapid development
of working code one also gets both correct and more-efficient
code, and again I post up Android (which I do write app code for)
as a counter-example.<br>
</p>
<p>Bringing a language into base IMHO ought to be very carefully
considered <i>as removing it might be impossible down the road
and ultimately FreeBSD could pay horribly for that. </i>This
is especially true when the language itself isn't simply a
language; it also means that in practical use it has a huge number
of other outside resources (e.g. containers or whatever)
particularly when they're not static and might have compilation
issues down the road. I personally hate coding for Android
(although I do it) because its essentially required to use their
IDE to be productive at all and it changes out from under you
whenever Google decides to deprecate or change something; do we
really want to bring that sort of situation into FreeBSD? In
addition I've been bit several times by the "floating dependency"
thing with with php over the years -- php itself is of course a
package but there are <i>other </i>packages that use it as a
language and a huge number of modules that are brought in to
handle various things from xml parsing to database connectivity.
Several times over the years I've upgraded php using "pkg upgrade"
and immediately had one or more packages that allegedly should be
forward-compatible break with missing dependencies that weren't
originally there and thus "pkg" had no knowledge of them. These
are the risks you accept when using a "language + other things"
model in all respects; it can happen with code linked against
openssl, for example (e.g. Postgres was a recent one built from
source that required a bit of effort to resolve as I build that in
a production environment I'm responsible for from source.)</p>
<p>I would argue that this risk in a core component should not be
accepted without a showing of extraordinary benefit in the context
of improvement of some element that the core system includes now,
and even then only if the container problem can be resolved in a
way that will not wind up screwing the ability to build --
including a retrospective release -- on an indefinite basis down
the road. That is, if you can't (for example) check out 14.x five
years from now <i>and build it from source </i>then its not
acceptable, which implies that whatever containerized assets are
required they must also be in said tree and versioned in same
without having to be pulled from an external source (which may
have changed such that backward compatibility to build has been
lost.) This could get into more than just a technical question if
there are potential licensing issues with those "must have to
build" assets as well.<br>
</p>
<p>My 2 bits of contribution; carry on.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Karl Denninger<br>
<a href="mailto:karl@denninger.net" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">karl@denninger.net</a><br>
<i>The Market Ticker</i><br>
<font size="-2"><i>[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]</i></font></div>
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