From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 12:20:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13238FA; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:20:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uspoerlein@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa0-x22b.google.com (mail-oa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB5A52755; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:20:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id j10so2441845oah.2 for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 05:20:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ns4DWrnOT7a4OuUQw4z61DEGvefYFo9K63mU2THZzKY=; b=ETRiRqQ1grHnnucZdVCafHlrY43J/02IUeuai8TaLW3+JOFuMDAqXv5d8Q9Lu3Rg5w 4Q7i5sx+QQBdP/FU28IdVcb8tpPmqUDAd9Pr7+xKo7IgUZGA4gsk4DchLzbm1Kd4F5Na MYoMGyjlLJN0TkZTcT0sofnFV9CyERvmBuJddB0C9dE+XkJEM93E4iV0NfL1rKlcuRM7 6EZy8ppwDD0mRrrm90p0WqzkUFogbjEuv5L2p7QNmFi22hVHYksz5hPrSAvSqvx34HTW g30Nb49tfZxCOAR/H9unwanCgs/v8Ag0tQ75gZHuPENXu+C7lJYhz2JEzPDrH7o6H09Q 7qgw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.78.227 with SMTP id e3mr39191967oex.5.1381062021940; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 05:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: uspoerlein@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.69.104 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 05:20:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20131004111256.GC98118@admin.xzibition.com> References: <20131003084814.GB99713@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <524D6059.2000700@FreeBSD.org> <524DD120.4000701@freebsd.org> <20131003203501.GA1371@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004061833.GA1367@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004063259.GC72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004065753.GV82824@droso.dk> <20131004070158.GE72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004111256.GC98118@admin.xzibition.com> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 14:20:21 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vvOFUy8u_3Og7-x3kS_GGr7Dwd8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [HEADSUP] Staging, packaging and more From: =?UTF-8?Q?Ulrich_Sp=C3=B6rlein?= To: Bryan Drewery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: ports@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , =?UTF-8?Q?Fernando_Apestegu=C3=ADa?= X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:20:23 -0000 2013/10/4 Bryan Drewery : > On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 09:01:58AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:57:53AM +0200, Erwin Lansing wrote: >> > On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:32:59AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Please no devel packages. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Seconded. >> > > > > >> > > > > What's wrong with devel packages? >> > > > >> > > > It complicates things for developers and custom software on >> > > > FreeBSD. The typical situation that I see on most Linux platforms is a >> > > > lot of confusion by people, why their custom software XYZ does not >> > > > properly build - the most common answer: they forgot to install a >> > > > tremendous amount of dev packages, containing headers, build tools and >> > > > whatnot. >> > > > On FreeBSD, you can rely on the fact that if you installed e.g. libGL, >> > > > you can start building your own GL applications without the need to >> > > > install several libGL-dev, libX11-dev, ... packages first. >> > > > This is something, which I personally see as a big plus of the FreeBSD >> > > > ports system and which makes FreeBSD attractive as a development platform. >> > > > >> > > >> > > On the other ends, that makes the package fat for embedded systems, that also >> > > makes some arbitrary runtime conflicts between packages (because they both >> > > provide the same symlink on the .so, while we could live with 2 version at >> > > runtime), that leads to tons of potential issue while building locally, and >> > > that makes having sometime insane issues with dependency tracking. Why having >> > > .a, .la, .h etc in production servers? It could greatly reduce PBI size, etc. >> > > >> > > Personnaly I do have no strong opinion in one or another direction. Should we be >> > > nicer with developers? with end users? with embedded world? That is the question >> > > to face to decide if -devel packages is where we want to go or not. >> > > >> > >> > If we chose to go down that path, at least we should chose a different >> > name as we've used the -devel suffix for many years for developmental >> > versions. >> > >> > I must agree that it is one of the things high on my list of things that >> > irritate me with several Linux distributions but I can see the point for >> > for embedded systems as well. But can't we have both? Create three >> > packages, a default full package and split packages of -bin, -lib, >> > and even -doc. My first though twas to make the full package a >> > meta-package that would install the split packages in the background, >> > but that would probably be confusing for users at the end of the day, so >> > rather just have it be a real package. >> > >> I do like that idea very much, and it is easily doable with stage :) > > +1 to splitting packages for embedded usage. -1 for the split, as it will not fix anybody's problem. On regular machines, disk space is cheap and having to install more packages is just annoying to users. Think of the time wasted that people are told to apt-get libfoo-dev before they can build anything from github, or similar. If you actually *are* space constricted on your tiny embedded machine, what the fuck are you doing with the sqlite database and all the metadata about ports/packages anyway? Just rm /usr/include and /usr/share/doc, /usr/share/man, etc. when building your disk image. But you are doing that already anyway, so this solves no actual problem for you. My two cents Uli