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Date:      Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:15:50 +1030 (CST)
From:      Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
To:        taob@io.org (Brian Tao)
Cc:        freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Changing Ethernet frame size to 576 bytes?
Message-ID:  <199603240845.TAA24105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.960323222600.8944G-100000@cabal.io.org> from "Brian Tao" at Mar 23, 96 10:27:38 pm

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Brian Tao stands accused of saying:
> 
>     Anyone know what this guy is saying?  I figured fragmentation and
> reassembly would happen between the FTP server's Ethernet interface
> and that of the router to the Internet.  Is there any validity to this
> guy's suggestion?

Er, "yes" some of what he says is valid.  No, he's not drawing any sensible
or meaningful conclusions from it.

> Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org)
...
> Partly this is due to overloaded links, but I also notice that your
> ftp server at ftp.io.org seems to be configured to send Ethernet sized
> (ie 1536 byte) packets, instead of the normal Internet 576 byte packets.

You can discount the "normal Internet packet size" concept; there ain't
no such animal.  As has been already observed, 576 is the minimum 
permitted MSS.

> This means that every IP packet you send has to be fragmented into three
> IP fragments as it travels over the Internet, and if any single one of

This only happens if your data has to move over a link imposing a 
smaller MSS.  Not many do - mostly PPP and SLIP links.

> those fragments is lost, then the other two are useless, even if they do
> arrive. In other words, if your link is congested and is losing 20% of
> the packets, then those losses make the other two fragments useless too,
> giving you an 'effective' loss rate of 60%.

This is bogus arithmetic; lossage is a normally a point event and results 
in the loss of one unit datagram around the point, regardless of its size.
This is why small-packet proocols (like kermit) fare better on noisy 
uncorrected lines than large-packet protocols like Ymodem.

> Of course, I may be wrong. It's just a guess, based on what I noticed from
> this end, that the ftp data seemed to be arriving in 1536 byte chunks.

This is most likely because the systems responsible for the 576-byte
MSS cutdown (wherever they may be - I suspect his end of things) are not 
cooperating with the path MTU discovery performed by FreeBSD, and thus
your FTP server (mistakenly) believes that it can send a 1536-byte 
segment without fragmentation.

If he's really keen, you could suggest that he should establish at what point
the fragmentation occurs, and determine the offending hardware/software
so that he can the proceed to bug the losing vendor(s) to fix their code.

> Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@cs.stanford.edu>
...
>  * Macintosh Programmer

Not to be a bigot, but the Apple TCP code seems to leave a lot to be
desired.  It would be educational for someone to point the MTU
discovery code at one and see if it behaves...

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au    [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au   [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496       [[
]] realtime instrument control          (ph/fax)  +61-8-267-3039        [[
]] Collector of old Unix hardware.      "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[



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