From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sun Feb 28 05:29:26 2021 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3F9561088 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 05:29:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DpBlp2Xqfz4t1F for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2021 05:29:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id v64so9768215qtd.5 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 21:29:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+FPd6mMf554i9bEJ1JJ5U7kGFuFYCrQrmjU7hz73hXw=; b=ZnxiW5+Dm/Yy/n+S8eJHgsjuvoaP2PRKZbSgpSi+VJfRQj/MpwAQ86E0tO6ORSabnk xTVrSXj4dasIVqoN0zN+5E1rBLTlT7c8B6oMRCyr+6syKAlRVO+643zNkdA7ABEbdCBU timaWmBakAmdA0M2BILJLBp0QOBMhc7Jib5d67D7cHVv9emI0fO099HDUXg8kTsh59ep BRAE1yZtN1zcMPV2wMznkqx/kE4UKAOytXiGYE9A90rm/iXTUGx9v2E1tjA4rhZjR6eI bUwTW9cP9r0bDbl4PwG3MJ8WWNlUlSRlj9W1PfypfsvcCSiHPB4aDV964duphE28GXd8 kAvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+FPd6mMf554i9bEJ1JJ5U7kGFuFYCrQrmjU7hz73hXw=; b=kI8SyUHHkf6KuFdZaWCTK728bureR5VPeZn9FnnDbJjMlbMYTedk6/3Ws4DbmlrP7k wzBYhZVSuVFU4IstSrwX80zM7mCREbKkR5jcF1yy4q+ijVL3NwhAFg27Ms/VH+Dv/hAn SSVXib2UH1V3lDfo7sA+DlwZAfllqD8TJABh68BA6O+aZZbhZB50MTj/7gkAc2Mb3otq KoktLHi0RbvFWuhVFbwSqYO+hzkK94zQR3q2jh7lRHYIwmO0KrNaSPBkuhnbGTqEYdtq W/rBoQsMno37ZCMWq/fWUUynKpNRPrJGHnfO2qom+rOeHz3S23mtGf/wsQMA+5j9Bz2G 44fw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vH3OpF0SFKS2eIKh4Gyv+lq/x3/DMGkK3CYX8isgIJXYoo9wZ rIyn/HngBjLENyvLRAt2O7ONnHYdS4mx1pmOk21DTQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRPGJdt/edWw88dpNLkgQNBhLgKqAAegzLZuWZXfrI7rDJXM3gwpGHZZBWNOvxcAGpzlXovTuJkG184BZojkI= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6796:: with SMTP id b22mr8695412qtp.101.1614490165308; Sat, 27 Feb 2021 21:29:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210228043411.mj7l5wkwj46neurv@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20210228043411.mj7l5wkwj46neurv@localhost> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:29:14 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: PIE enabled by default on main To: Ihor Antonov Cc: FreeBSD Current , Gordon Bergling , Ed Maste X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4DpBlp2Xqfz4t1F X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.34 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 05:29:26 -0000 On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 9:34 PM Ihor Antonov wrote: > > > > But isn't it well-known that ASLR/ASR/any-related-buzzwork does not add > > any security, except imaginary? The only purpose of it is to have a > > check-list item ticked green. > > I don't know if I should parse this as sarcasm (or any other form of > "humor") or is a serious statement? But this does leave me with a whole > bunch of questions.. > > If this is really how Konstantin is describing it then is it OK to say > about this to the whole Internet? Why FreeBSD Foundation is paying for > meaningless work then? Why members of the Core team do this work? Does > this mean that FreeBSD is working to satisfy the silly needs of some fat > customer? What about project independence and not being controlled by > big money? > > Where can I read about ASLR and security myths? Why not spend time and explain why this does not work? > Not to rise to the baitiness of all these leading questions (they really are quite contrary to how our community usually comports itself, but for the sake of civil discourse, I'll ignore).... I'll bet it has something to do with the many known ASLR attacks. One is chronicled in https://www.vusec.net/projects/anc/ and elsewhere, which show how MMU side channels can defeat ASLR. Or maybe he's familiar with the offset2lib attack against Linux 64-bit ASLR documented in this paper https://cybersecurity.upv.es/attacks/offset2lib/offset2lib-paper.pdf. There's many others as well that show the shortcomings of ASLR and disclose ways to defeat it using various clever means. > You clearly should mean something useful and much more important than > that, > > when stating that FreeBSD made a huge step forward. So I want to be > aware > > of the advance. > > Why attack a person who was really happy for the project? > This DOES sound a agressive, even for a sarcastic joke.. > I am saying this someone who shares the same native language with Mr. > Belousov, > it is not a "language/culture" difference thing. > just your regular user who reads mailing list ocassionally > Maybe he'd like to understand how PIE accomplishes better security give the known ASLR weaknesses. And rather than take a sarcastic tone, he asked for more details that back up the earlier claims of improved security so we could all learn something. Warner