From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sat Apr 23 06:27:09 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC90FB19B1D for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2016 06:27:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan_partelly@rdsor.ro) Received: from mail.rdsor.ro (mail.rdsor.ro [193.231.238.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCF81154 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2016 06:27:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan_partelly@rdsor.ro) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (unknown [79.117.119.78]) by mail.rdsor.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D29123292; Sat, 23 Apr 2016 09:27:02 +0300 (EEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) From: Dan Partelly In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 09:27:02 +0300 Cc: Lyndon Nerenberg , Matthew Grooms , FreeBSD Current Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9BA8C798-C87D-4CA8-9AB3-CEC309AB81A5@rdsor.ro> References: <76093.1461096570@critter.freebsd.dk> <5716AD65.8070007@shrew.net> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 06:27:09 -0000 >>=20 >=20 > *THAT* is the tone I was complaining about. This is not at all = respectful. >=20 Respect is a two way street. If you want respect, offer yours. We make = our point very poorly, I get you, but it is the result of what you = and others from the projectdo. Meaning, 0 communication. I dont know if = that means 0 communications skills,or you do not communicate on = purpose. You as a member of the core team, should be one of the first = to address this problem.=20 After all you the core invested time in code of conducts and other = things of questionable value, but at the same time you always avoid to = clearly communicate with your user base. > 've met personally with Glen, in person. I had a wonderful chat with = him. Maybe you did. We did not. Serious mechanism issues regarding pkg went = unanswered on the other list. Look on pkg list, very rational, polite, = and to the subject, 100% rational message about pkg base which is not = responded. So, you complain about tone, and how helpful would be for = ppl to change it. Let me give you a suggestion: start with altering your = own behaviour. Offer respect, be communicative, less sensible on = internet where it is very hard to convey =E2=80=9Ctone=E2=80=9D. You'll = see that it works wonders to indirectly alter the behaviour of the = people you so eloquently compared to peasants daring to disturb the lord = of the castle. You says that everything will be OK. I want to believe you. But giving = the track record VIMAGE has, and how many gugs go on and on with years = Im not so sure that you guys wont do the same with this subsystem, and = leave it with rough edges for half a decade. Because we all know that = everything will be OK in the end. Timeframe is also important. >=20 >=20 >> And I really think THAT is the crux of the argument everyone is = trying to >> make. >>=20 >> To reiterate: packages are good. In moderation. As with all other >> things. But they have to solve the general case, and pkg - both the = tool >> and the methodology in its current and pending incarnations - does = not. >>=20 >> I, and others, are trying to have a real conversation about this. = But the >> blowback is incredible. Let alone incredulous. >=20 >=20 > That is understood. Being toxic about it isn't going to help. Being > disrespectful is not going to help. Being hyperbolic isn't going to = help. > It isn't a real conversation until that stuff is gone. So far I've = seen no > evidence of it being gone. >=20 > I've met personally with Glen, in person. I had a wonderful chat with = him. > Based on talking to him, it was clear many of the complaints here were > overblown. Are there rough edges? Yes. Are there things we don't know? = Yes. > Is it the end of the world? No. Over the coming weeks, things will get > easier. The rough edges will be sanded off. After talking with him, I = have > complete confidence in him and others that are working on making this > happen. I don't need it to be perfect today, because of this = confidence. >=20 > I personally will be refraining from engaging further. I plan on = seeing > what gaps there are by adding support to NanoBSD for packages. I'll be = busy > with that. In talking to Glen and others, we've already identified a = few > easy gaps to fill. Once they've done that, I'll get going on NanoBSD = with > the goal to be able to use it to build a bootable system of any > architecture from packages with no root privs. I expect to find = issues, but > I don't expect to find any issue that's intractable. I expect after = the > issues are resolved, the end product will be better for everybody. >=20 > Warner > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"